First: this is Python-dev, which is not really the best palce for this kind
of question. I'd try:
https://discuss.python.org/
Though interestingly, I don't see a Typing topic --maybe I missed it.
Or this list:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/typing-...@python.org/
But a couple thoughts
ss_and_instance, Field)
> assert isinstance(Foo().variable_both_class_and_instance, int)
> ```
>
> Do you have any ideas or comments about this?
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assert isinstance(Foo.variable_both_class_and_instance, Field)
assert isinstance(Foo().variable_both_class_and_instance, int)
```
Do you have any ideas or comments about this?
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Gah. Already dealt with.
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I am jugnu25 working for computers marketing PR consultant. With extra than 6
years experience in PR and Digital Industry, helping groups to obtain dreams
through streamilining the technique.
https://www.computersmarketing.com/
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mon way forward. Having some packages depend on now-reclaimed
"pyliblo" and "pyliblo3" fork would be the worst possible outcome.
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in their requirements.
Is there a sort of protocol to do when this happens, in order to replace
the source package with a new version ?
thanks for your help
Mathieu
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ime!
Regards from rainy London,
Pablo Galindo Salgado
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."
>
> i reckon the site might be deprecated yet report this just in case
>
> sorry to bother if it is already known!
>
> hope the best
>
> w. yang
>
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y to bother if it is already known!
>
> hope the best
>
> w. yang
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i reckon the site might be deprecated yet report this just in case
sorry to bother if it is already known!
hope the best
w. yang
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at. What would be a next step?
>>
>> Thank you once again,
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Margaux Hoover
>>
>> --
>>
>> Margaux Hoover
>>
>> Xtrepid Design
>> _______
>> Python-Dev mailing
aux Hoover
>
> --
>
> Margaux Hoover
>
> Xtrepid Design
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that. What would be a next step?
Thank you once again,
Sincerely,
Margaux Hoover
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minutes navigating the Discourse signup, but
it's not obvious to me that's desirable or desired by Discourse
admins. On the other hand, Discourse's members-only policy is
basically the same as Mailman's, so we'd probably lose a boatload of
python-dev
t, we could just forgo the
> filtering and pass on posts from all Discourse categories. But for
> python-dev, the volume is too high, and existing python-dev subscribers
> probably don't want a category like "Help".
That seem accurate to me.
________________
On 12Dec2022 01:05, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
If only, fellow list colleagues, I could see only the topics I choose on
Discourse.
You can mute catgeories. I don't.
The Discourse feels like python-list, python-dev, python-* combined.
I feel cluttered.
Aye. But I filter my inbound
a new category is made.
To have an almost complete equivalent of the topics that were once
discussed on python-dev, you can just mute every thing except the "Core
Development" category. This is the setting I am using since a while and
I am quite happy with it. You may want to unmute
ing for?
Barry
>
> The Discourse feels like python-list, python-dev, python-* combined.
> I feel cluttered.
>
> If only I could also export the folks using only the mailing list to the
> Discourse.
>
> If only Discourse was as easy to search and port as a mail archi
If only, fellow list colleagues, I could see only the topics I choose on
Discourse.
The Discourse feels like python-list, python-dev, python-* combined.
I feel cluttered.
If only I could also export the folks using only the mailing list to the
Discourse.
If only Discourse was as easy to search
that were once discussed on
python-dev, you can just mute every thing except the "Core Development" category. This is
the setting I am using since a while and I am quite happy with it. You may want to unmute the
"PEPs" category as well.
Threading info is kept qui
o those list messages from their mail
client with their known-to-Discourse address (is the From address enough
for Discourse to recognize the user?)
Cheers,
Baptiste
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:
On Thu, Dec 01, 2022 at 10:18:49PM +, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev wrote:
Wild suggestion:
Make None.__hash__ writable.
E.g.
None.__hash__ = lambda : 0 # Currently raises AttributeError:
'NoneType' object attribute '__hash__' is read-only
You would have to write to `type(None).__hash__
to mailman could be done by
subscribing the mailman list to the Discourse forum. Letting
_nonDiscourse_ users reply or post to Discourse is not trivial.
Cheers,
Cameron Simpson
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aken, Discourse won't let
you subscribe to just a set of categories, so any filtering has to
happen on the Mailman side.
If we wanted an equivalent of python-list, we could just forgo the
filtering and pass on posts from all Discourse categories. But for
python-dev, the volume is too high, and exis
ted.
I know nothing about Discourse internals, but I suspect that's going
to be the difficult part if there is one. With a little luck that
will be no problem. ;-)
Steve
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You're right of course. Oh well, it *was* a wild idea.
Rob Cliffe
On 04/12/2
On 04/12/2022 18:16, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 at 05:11, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev
wrote:
Wild suggestion:
Make None.__hash__ writable.
E.g.
None.__hash__ = lambda : 0 # Currently raises
On 09Dec2022 14:58, Simon Cross wrote:
I can now pull from Discourse or GH when it’s convenient for me. It’s also
much easier to disengage for a few days and catch up later.
I have a question about how you handle multiple communities. I'm
subscribed to ~30 python-dev style mailing lists
han~
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so that you're only seeing what
> interests you now?
>
> In particular I have to suspect that a boatload of those were
> python-committers mails that are now basically obsolete (can't say, I
> never have sought enough responsibility that I needed to subscribe to
> that firehose). But t
>
> I have a question about how you handle multiple communities. I'm
> subscribed to ~30 python-dev style mailing lists across different
> projects. There is no way I can open up 30 Discourse sites each day.
> Mail brings everything into one place for me, and I have things setup
>
e to suspect that a boatload of those were
python-committers mails that are now basically obsolete (can't say, I
never have sought enough responsibility that I needed to subscribe to
that firehose). But that would help with python-dev/ideas too.
Steve
______
> I can now pull from Discourse or GH when it’s convenient for me. It’s also
> much easier to disengage for a few days and catch up later.
I have a question about how you handle multiple communities. I'm
subscribed to ~30 python-dev style mailing lists across different
projects. There is
otices, it stopped being useful.
Just another data point on the switch to Discourse. I was personally invested
in mailing lists, having been the project leader for GNU Mailman for 20+ years
(retired a few years now). Python-dev email was a central and indispensable
part of my daily workflow.
sad about: "being
> > here for the community" is not wrong or shameful.
> >
> > Since forever, python-dev has attracted a large following of enthusiast
> > Python users, who want to understand the design choices of their
> > preferred language. This widely shared c
, it stopped being useful.
Well, that's only taking into account the posting side. On the reading
side, I reckon that many more people (more or less) silently read
python-dev than Discourse.
Cheers,
Baptiste
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t; than what was typically on python-dev.
I trust you that mailing list mode can work, once you've refined your
filter rules. Others have posted similar results.
However, each user writing their own filter rules doesn't scale well.
Most people just won't do it.
If this list really is to
I’ve found that using mailing list mode to lurk on discuss.python.org works
well. I’ve set up rules on my local mail client to archive what I don’t want in
my inbox; I have 4 rules in place now, though I’m interested in a bit more than
what was typically on python-dev.
Cheers,
John
> On
sad about: "being
here for the community" is not wrong or shameful.
Since forever, python-dev has attracted a large following of enthusiast
Python users, who want to understand the design choices of their
preferred language. This widely shared concern for writing idiomatic
code is a
ult ability to post, and then enabling Discourse
to post. None of this *requires* the help of Mailman devs.
> Turning this list into a relevant mirror of Discourse is the nicest
> course of action for the hundreds of silent readers python-dev has
> gathered over the years.
;
Your friendly release team,
Ned Deily @nad <https://discuss.python.org/u/nad>
Steve Dower @steve.dower <https://discuss.python.org/u/steve.dower>
Pablo Galindo Salgado @pablogsal <https://discuss.python.org/u/pablogsal>
Łukasz Langa @ambv <https://discuss.python.org/u/ambv>
Tho
community" is not wrong or shameful.
Since forever, python-dev has attracted a large following of enthusiast
Python users, who want to understand the design choices of their
preferred language. This widely shared concern for writing idiomatic
code is a distinguishing trait of the Python
ested at minimum better threading for the Discourse mail
interface, which took a while but eventually was accomplished. IMO
its only been in the last 4-6 months that shutting down Python-Dev
became a realistic option, as traffic disappeared and the biggest
common complaint about Discourse was m
ided to split off to use Discuss to satisfy
> *their* tooling preferences?
>
I did; I think it was a mistake to start discourse without a plan for
shutting down this mailing list.
Two wrongs don't make a right, though.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhaY1hRDYBg
>
> --
> Steve
&
l, those developers are not so "young" for the most part :-)
Regards
Antoine.
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QhaY1hRDYBg
--
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On Thu, Dec 01, 2022 at 10:18:49PM +, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev wrote:
> Wild suggestion:
> Make None.__hash__ writable.
> E.g.
> None.__hash__ = lambda : 0 # Currently raises AttributeError:
> 'NoneType' object attribute '__hash__' is read-only
You would have to writ
do it on your behalf).
>
> Just let the "second circle" of the community keep their mailing list,
> as this second circle just won't switch to a specialized, and quite
> unflexible tool.
>
> Yeah, without most core devs, this list might be more akin to
> python-ide
the community keep their mailing list,
as this second circle just won't switch to a specialized, and quite
unflexible tool.
Yeah, without most core devs, this list might be more akin to
python-ideas than the old python-dev. But it makes sense to keep the
bigger following it has grown over the years.
>
On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 at 05:11, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev
wrote:
>
> Wild suggestion:
> Make None.__hash__ writable.
> E.g.
> None.__hash__ = lambda : 0 # Currently raises AttributeError:
> 'NoneType' object attribute '__hash__' is read-only
Hashes have to be sta
that matches identity based
equality without using id: any constant hash function will do.
--
Oscar
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ors are way premature, and either relate to the
> "sticks" tactics, or to the usual intolerance of "modern tools" converts.
> Baptiste
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read it, but interesting ideas would
surely be copied over to discourse at some point.
All the death clamors are way premature, and either relate to the
"sticks" tactics, or to the usual intolerance of "modern tools" converts.
Baptiste
__________
since our introduction of insertion ordered dicts.
We have a number of other set optimizations so it's not an
apple-to-apple comparison, but still.
Cheers,
Carl Friedrich
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ve time to discuss it
> any further.
>
Almost everyone here is doing this as a hobby or for fun. So "productive"
isn't really the measure. As long as people are *enjoying* the debate, it's
worthwhile.
Paul
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heir opinion on the
matter will count for something. Until then, it's not a productive use of our
collective time to discuss it any further.
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t at this point, endlessly posting your views
everywhere isn't helping. Give people time to think and consider, and maybe
someone will decide to support the change. There's no urgency - 3.12 is a
year away, so that's the soonest this might be available.
Paul
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inistic on all systems, as opposed to just some of them.
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ting enough for me to continue to follow as it unfolded
On Fri, 2022-12-02 at 14:40 +0100, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
> Le 02/12/2022 à 10:09, Gregory P. Smith a écrit :
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner > <mailto:vstin...@python.org>> wrote:
> &
lemented, so we marked them as approved and moved on.
FWIW, making the insertion ordering an official part of the language
happened relatively soon afterward, though for 3.7, not 3.6. [1] I'm
pretty sure there's a python-dev thread about that. The stdtypes docs
were updated [2] soon after
On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 8:17 AM Baptiste Carvello <
devel2...@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:
> Le 02/12/2022 à 10:09, Gregory P. Smith a écrit :
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner > <mailto:vstin...@python.org>> wrote:
> >
> >
>
Le 02/12/2022 à 10:09, Gregory P. Smith a écrit :
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner <mailto:vstin...@python.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?
>
>
> I'd be in favor of this.
Why? Californian fi
On 11/30/2022 8:48 PM, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev wrote:
Thank you for this very clear analysis, Oscar.
It seems to me that this strengthens the OP's case. I am curious as to
whether others agree.
I do.
On 30/11/2022 13:35, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 23:46, Steven D'Aprano
nse. Others (including me) have made references to
other kinds of determinism that have derailed the threads by
misunderstanding exactly what Yoni is referring to. The *stronger*
sense of determinism would be useful if possible but it is not the
intended topic of these threads.
--
Oscar
___
On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner wrote:
>
> Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?
>
I'd be in favor of this. Or at least setting up an auto-responder
suggesting people post on discuss.python.org instead.
-gps
_______
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of
CPython or to use a completely different TLS library just to be able
to use a functino that has been a part of TLS and OpenSSL since
basically forever. :)
/Christer
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On 01. 12. 22 17:28, Victor Stinner wrote:
What happened to this SC decision (move to Discourse)? People started
again to write on python-dev. So what's going on?
PEPs must be announced on Discourse.
For discussions you can use any medium. A list, Discord, IRC, in-person
chat...
Should I
What happened to this SC decision (move to Discourse)? People started
again to write on python-dev. So what's going on?
Should I reply on python-dev? Ask to move to Discourse?
Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?
Victor
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> having to rebuild all of CPython themselves. Or if they want to integrate
> with some other C library that wants a raw pointer to a SSL socket.
> Hopefully this would reduce the burden on the ssl module maintainers a bit.
>
> Anyway, if you think this is a good approach I
s is to make different instances have
different hashes but there is only ever one instance of None. A
singleton class can have a hash function that matches identity based
equality without using id: any constant hash function will do.
--
Oscar
___________
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no way, in the general case, to bring it back.
That's why it's important not to violate it willy-nilly in a manner that cannot
even be prevented by users who _want_ their programs to exhibit deterministic
behavior.
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ely from predictable
facts), or is it itself entropic? I believe the former, but I'm
curious if anyone disagrees!
ChrisA
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pretty awful reason to reject the change though.
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ts. And it's never the "standard" choice even in
> languages that do offer this. Determinism is generally considered as a
> valuable property in computation, at least when it is feasible to maintain
> it.
> _______
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your own libssl API wrappings however you choose to implement them,
are better bets.
-Greg
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hould ever
think they're doing the "right thing".
Cheers,
Steve
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d approach I could clean up my patches, add
support for SSL_CTX/SSL_SESSION/BIO, document all of this and make it into a
proper pull request.
/Christer
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Yoni is referring to. The *stronger*
sense of determinism would be useful if possible but it is not the
intended topic of these threads.
--
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ding I
didn't already make a case against it. It doesn't help, just turns this
discussion into a shouting match.
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all just so you can win an argument. Makes sense.
ChrisA
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avings in unproductive arguments and discussions like this one :-(
>
> It would also break the invariant that `repr(data) == repr(data)` but it
> is times like this that I feel that it would be worth it.
>
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
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uld be worth it.
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hen it is feasible to maintain it.
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t a set into a
> > deterministic ordering but no such feature exists after the Py3K
> > changes (sorted used to do this in Python 2.x).
>
> `sorted()` works fine on homogeneous sets. It is only heterogeneous sets
> that are a problem, and in practice, that usually means None mixe
...
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ely reverted along with such other changes anyway)
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k these last two points are
essentially FUD.
I made my proposal because I believe the FUD scenarios are strongly
unlikely. (and even then, at worst we end up with a "practically useless"
behavior on None, that can also be freely reverted along with such other
changes anyway)
On Tue, N
**(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
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e
change the implementation of hashing, or of sets, or of something
seemingly unrelated like address randomisation.
--
Steve
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attack surface is *so*
specific, randomization of non-string hashes is unimportant.
ChrisA
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ed to do this in Python 2.x).
>
> `sorted()` works fine on homogeneous sets. It is only heterogeneous sets
> that are a problem, and in practice, that usually means None mixed in
> with some other type.
That is of course precisely the context for this thread!
--
Oscar
______
s now easier to write doctests using the dict's repr. It would be
nice to be able to do the same for sets, but not nice enough to justify
making them bigger or slower.
--
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care how it's implemented. (Just like I don't have to care as a user that
we have (at least) two different ways dicts are represented internally.)
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eous sets
that are a problem, and in practice, that usually means None mixed in
with some other type.
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e__
> preserves the order in which names are assigned in the class body. Are
> there any such use cases for stable sets?
>
> --
> Greg
> ___________
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> To unsubscribe send an email to pyth
there were some internal language reasons
to want stable dicts, e.g. so that the class dict passed to __prepare__
preserves the order in which names are assigned in the class body. Are
there any such use cases for stable sets?
--
Greg
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upported between instances of 'int' and 'NoneType'
>
> It would be useful to have a straight-forward way to sort a set into a
> deterministic ordering but no such feature exists after the Py3K
> changes (sorted used to do this in Python 2.x).
>
> --
> Oscar
> _
one, 1, 2])
TypeError: '<' not supported between instances of 'int' and 'NoneType'
It would be useful to have a straight-forward way to sort a set into a
deterministic ordering but no such feature exists after the Py3K
changes (sorted used to do this in Python 2.x).
--
Oscar
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or a dict?
ChrisA
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is enough
> support for such a change to take place.
>
I personally agree with the arguments made in the issue, so I'm afraid I
don't' support making the change as we worked hard to stop people from
relying on consistent hashing/iteration from random-access data structures
like dict and set.
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