Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
It's been 10 years. Some of my memory is fuzzy. :) Regardless, Adobe didn't kill off Spectra, so it's hard to fault them for that. Scott On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: Spectra did sell well. I don't have the sales #s but it was a good seller - especially in Europe I believe. Allaire did not cancel it - Macromedia did. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Scott Brady dsbr...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair to Adobe, two of the products you mentioned they killed off were a result of the Macromedia purchase which led to them having duplicate products (Dreamweaver vs. GoLive, Freehand vs. Illustrator, Fireworks vs. ImageReady, etc.), so it made sense from a business standpoint to kill one off. And, to their benefit, they didn't just kill the Macromedia versions, but seemed to keep the better (at least more successful) one. Of course, Spectra just wasn't a successful product (and that was killed by Allaire, I believe), so that just made good business sense. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341701 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
To be fair to Adobe, two of the products you mentioned they killed off were a result of the Macromedia purchase which led to them having duplicate products (Dreamweaver vs. GoLive, Freehand vs. Illustrator, Fireworks vs. ImageReady, etc.), so it made sense from a business standpoint to kill one off. And, to their benefit, they didn't just kill the Macromedia versions, but seemed to keep the better (at least more successful) one. Of course, Spectra just wasn't a successful product (and that was killed by Allaire, I believe), so that just made good business sense. Scott On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:15 AM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote: I fully agree. The pace of change in Microsoft land is very stressful to developers. They kill off and deprecate multiple technologies and product features each year. Microsoft scrapping DTS sent many database developers back into training classes. Adobe also has a history of killing off products. GoLive, Freehand and Spectra come to mind. Granted, Adobe is nowhere near as bad as Microsoft in this regard. -Mike Chabot -- - Scott Brady http://www.scottbrady.net/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341687 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Damn Den. I love reading your posts. Thanks for the morning giggle. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 2:03 AM, denstar valliants...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Michael Grant wrote: I can sleep, no worries mate. The strength of your opinion belies that statement. You know you lie awake at night, tossing and turning over this in agony. Admit it. =) ... I feel masking the use of php on any CF branded Adobe pages (NOT rewriting dozens of apps in CF) could probably be done for under 20k of internal resourcing. There's a number of ways to handle this either through code or through the webserver. URL rewrite anyone? To me that's a worthwhile decision. You may not think so. And that's fine. I won't be recommending you for a marketing manager any time soon. ;) Maybe they're short on webmasters. Or are worried about the search ranking. :) I'll do the rewrites for a mere 10k! Hell, I'd do it for free, just to never see this raised as a topic again. And to avoid that ugh feeling whenever I see .php at the end of a CF-related page. No offense to PHP, which is a fine language- just less totes awesome than CFML. ... Well no one knows their business better than Adobe. They know what they're doing much better than you. You are handsome Mr. Grant. You forgot modest. I always include that in my responses when speaking of your handsomeness, just for completeness. :Den -- Happiness: a good bank account, a good cook, and a good digestion. Jean-Jacques Rousseau ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341688 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I know so much about marketing from my experience with small/midtier companies in completely different lines of business that I can accurately make a cost-benefit analysis without any background information other than my own wild-ass guesses. Well yours is certainly more jaded and much less tongue in cheek. Having an opinion about masking the use of PHP on CF related pages doesn't equate to me feeling like I am a master at marketing. I'm not. (Though I wouldn't a client with yearly earnings of over 14.5B a small/midtier business.) And marketing is marketing. Your tactics and strategy change from client to client but the principles of marketing do not. So the fact I've never done work for Adobe doesn't disqualify me from ideas that might benefit them. One doesn't need to know so much about marketing or to do a cost-benefit analysis to see the value of throwing a dev on a url rewrite project for a week. It seems you are trying to morph my point into an argument for spending millions rewriting apps in cf. And if that was my point I think you'd be right. So I'll say again that we must agree to disagree here sir. It's clear I'm not swaying you in any way. And it seems clear you think I'm a fool. The beauty of HOF is that's it's made of so many opinionated people. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341689 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I, for one, would like to acknowledge you for the entertainment value you bring to this list. Thank you. Jeff On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: I know so much about marketing from my experience with small/midtier companies in completely different lines of business that I can accurately make a cost-benefit analysis without any background information other than my own wild-ass guesses. Well yours is certainly more jaded and much less tongue in cheek. Having an opinion about masking the use of PHP on CF related pages doesn't equate to me feeling like I am a master at marketing. I'm not. (Though I wouldn't a client with yearly earnings of over 14.5B a small/midtier business.) And marketing is marketing. Your tactics and strategy change from client to client but the principles of marketing do not. So the fact I've never done work for Adobe doesn't disqualify me from ideas that might benefit them. One doesn't need to know so much about marketing or to do a cost-benefit analysis to see the value of throwing a dev on a url rewrite project for a week. It seems you are trying to morph my point into an argument for spending millions rewriting apps in cf. And if that was my point I think you'd be right. So I'll say again that we must agree to disagree here sir. It's clear I'm not swaying you in any way. And it seems clear you think I'm a fool. The beauty of HOF is that's it's made of so many opinionated people. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341690 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
You should see me dance. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Jeffrey Battershall jbattersh...@gmail.com wrote: I, for one, would like to acknowledge you for the entertainment value you bring to this list. Thank you. Jeff On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: I know so much about marketing from my experience with small/midtier companies in completely different lines of business that I can accurately make a cost-benefit analysis without any background information other than my own wild-ass guesses. Well yours is certainly more jaded and much less tongue in cheek. Having an opinion about masking the use of PHP on CF related pages doesn't equate to me feeling like I am a master at marketing. I'm not. (Though I wouldn't a client with yearly earnings of over 14.5B a small/midtier business.) And marketing is marketing. Your tactics and strategy change from client to client but the principles of marketing do not. So the fact I've never done work for Adobe doesn't disqualify me from ideas that might benefit them. One doesn't need to know so much about marketing or to do a cost-benefit analysis to see the value of throwing a dev on a url rewrite project for a week. It seems you are trying to morph my point into an argument for spending millions rewriting apps in cf. And if that was my point I think you'd be right. So I'll say again that we must agree to disagree here sir. It's clear I'm not swaying you in any way. And it seems clear you think I'm a fool. The beauty of HOF is that's it's made of so many opinionated people. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341691 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Spectra did sell well. I don't have the sales #s but it was a good seller - especially in Europe I believe. Allaire did not cancel it - Macromedia did. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Scott Brady dsbr...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair to Adobe, two of the products you mentioned they killed off were a result of the Macromedia purchase which led to them having duplicate products (Dreamweaver vs. GoLive, Freehand vs. Illustrator, Fireworks vs. ImageReady, etc.), so it made sense from a business standpoint to kill one off. And, to their benefit, they didn't just kill the Macromedia versions, but seemed to keep the better (at least more successful) one. Of course, Spectra just wasn't a successful product (and that was killed by Allaire, I believe), so that just made good business sense. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341692 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Yeah, it was Macromedia MD On 29 Jan 2011, at 14:59, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: Spectra did sell well. I don't have the sales #s but it was a good seller - especially in Europe I believe. Allaire did not cancel it - Macromedia did. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Scott Brady dsbr...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair to Adobe, two of the products you mentioned they killed off were a result of the Macromedia purchase which led to them having duplicate products (Dreamweaver vs. GoLive, Freehand vs. Illustrator, Fireworks vs. ImageReady, etc.), so it made sense from a business standpoint to kill one off. And, to their benefit, they didn't just kill the Macromedia versions, but seemed to keep the better (at least more successful) one. Of course, Spectra just wasn't a successful product (and that was killed by Allaire, I believe), so that just made good business sense. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341693 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
So I'll say again that we must agree to disagree here sir. It's clear I'm not swaying you in any way. And it seems clear you think I'm a fool. The beauty of HOF is that's it's made of so many opinionated people. I don't think you're a fool, I just disagree with you on this specific issue. But no, you're not swaying me in any way here. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341695 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
ColdFusion has been around for over 15 years and has survived two corporate takeovers. That is a remarkable accomplishment considering how many other products and technologies have not survived. ColdFusion must be doing something right. I usually mention this point when asked about the future of the platform. I also like to point to major recognizable high-traffic Web sites that use ColdFusion. Another impressive accomplishment is that HomeSite is still very popular, years after the product was pulled from the market and with three alternative products actively trying to siphon off its user base. Nick Bradbury did an amazing job with HomeSite. -Mike Chabot On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Scott Brady dsbr...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair to Adobe, two of the products you mentioned they killed off were a result of the Macromedia purchase which led to them having duplicate products (Dreamweaver vs. GoLive, Freehand vs. Illustrator, Fireworks vs. ImageReady, etc.), so it made sense from a business standpoint to kill one off. And, to their benefit, they didn't just kill the Macromedia versions, but seemed to keep the better (at least more successful) one. Of course, Spectra just wasn't a successful product (and that was killed by Allaire, I believe), so that just made good business sense. Scott ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341697 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? (Revisited)
I have created a few video's to highlight some of these problems if anyone is interested. Also I did a video on another problem I had with migrating over to ColdFusion 9 as per a blog post I wrote. I did this video because I got a bit of flak on that post, because one person in particular commented and didn't fully understand the problem. So I will let the video's talk for themselves. Problem with projects mapped to a remote server http://vimeo.com/19342548 ColdFusion debugger Problems http://vimeo.com/19344071 http://vimeo.com/19344478 Problems with migrating over to ColdFusion 9 from ColdFusion 8 http://vimeo.com/19345476 Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341700 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
haha. what a great way to start the day! ha. Thanks for that. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 2:55 AM, rex li...@pgrworld.com wrote: I hope this is funny for you guys because it was funny for me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwzklHZqkbE Ballmer seems like a nice guy. It wasn't an iPhone, so he didn't smash it ;-) On 1/27/2011 10:14 PM, Mike Chabot wrote: products. The CEO of Coca-Cola will never be seen enjoying a Pepsi. Steve Balmer will never be seen talking on an iPhone. If someone handed him one he would smash it on the ground as quickly and as forcefully as he could. Adobe appears to lack the same internal pressure and competitive spirit that ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341610 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Wow, this is way off topic now eh! There is a well known saying use the best tool for the job. And as Dave will agree, CF is not always the best tool for the job, and I guess Adobe themselves even know that, even Microsoft dont claim that Winodws/IIS is the best solution for every job. For example, If I want to write a custom app from scratch, or it needs to be something I can easily update myself then I would use CF every time of course as I know CF and I love CF. However if I simply want an App that does a specific/common job and I dont plan to get my own hands dirty in the code, I will first look to the open source world, and usually I will find a PHP solution. For example, if you wanted to build a social networking community then there is really nothing like this for CF, you would have to write it yourself, which is a lot of work/time/cost. Or you could go and download ELGG, Dolphin or one of the many well-known PHP solutions and be up and running in no time. If you have the time and thousands of $ available to roll your own exactly how you want, then awesome, otherwise it is really a no brainer. And this particular scenario covers so many apps and situations, if you have a client who doesnt have the budget for you to write a CF solution and there is no open source CF solution, what do you do? Look outside the box for a solution that will fit the job/budget. It would be gr8 if CF had as many open source apps as PHP, but CFdevelopers tend to want to be paid for their work, which I guess is only fair if they had to pay for CF, plus of course the proportion of cfdeveloper compared to php developers is tiny, so clearly there is not as many people out there with the time or inclination to write OSS apps. Perhaps Railo/OBD will change this, but not by very much I reckon. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: 28 January 2011 06:40 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? This isn't actually true at all, Dave. To give one high profile example, take Hotmail. Microsoft got a huge amount of shit for the fact that Hotmail ran on Linux (or BSD? I think BSD) with Apache. Sure, they bought Hotmail and that was the primary reason. But people kept saying oh, Windows and IIS can't handle the load so they have to stick with BSD. There were plenty of tech articles about whether Microsoft could actually run Hotmail on Windows, how expensive it would be, etc. Finally, MS eventually moved it over but they had to put significant time and energy into the project. They even announced that they had moved it to Windows only to have to retract that statement a couple days later, admitting that some of the bits still ran on BSD. I seem to recall that MS totally fucked up Hotmail in the move as well but that could have been some of their other major screw ups. Microsoft acquired Hotmail in 1997. They migrated it to Windows in 2000/2001. Apparently, they didn't feel the need to do this very quickly. And I think there's a significant difference. At the time, there was a real, open question about whether Windows could fill this niche. Current versions really couldn't. NT 4 and IIS 3 and 4 weren't capable of doing this. But no one doubts that, say, the free RIA tools site could be written in CF. Large parts of the main Adobe site are, in fact, written in CF. Eating your own dogfood is still an important concept in the tech world and I think you sell it short. Adobe has a lot of different dog food, though. They have CF, LiveCycle, Day Software, and Contribute/Dreamweaver. Which one of those should they pick? As a tools vendor, they make products that explicitly are designed to interact with Java, ASP.NET and PHP: Dreamweaver, Flash Builder, LiveCycle Workbench. The Flex team probably has more customers using PHP than CF. The Flash team certainly does. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341612 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
You are pointing out another example where Microsoft developers have been highly critical of Microsoft. One of the loudest calls is for Microsoft to integrate Silverlight into MSIE so users don't need to download a separate plugin. Silverlight does not have the widespread penetration that the Flash plugin has, which is holding back that platform. Microsoft's uncertain commitment to Silverlight is the biggest area of concern for many Microsoft developers at present. Some developers, development firms, and entire companies have abandoned Silverlight in the past couple months because one Microsoft manager gave a brief impression that they were not investing as much as they could into the platform. In response, Microsoft has been paying a heavy price to turn that perception around, by hosting free day long Silverlight conferences, writing numerous blog posts, giving advanced previews of new tools that use Silverlight, making their development road map public, etc. Developers definitely do care about a company showing commitment to the products they sell. Look no further than the Silverlight mess that is still unfolding. It certainly caused me to scale back my enthusiasm for the Silverlight platform. If someone is reading this and has no idea what the Silverlight controversy is, you can start with this blog post where Bob Muglia first tries to publicly address the developer backlash. http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/ You could also Google http://www.google.com/search?q=silverlight+dead One of the most famous phrases in the history of marketing: I'm not only the Hair Club President, but I'm also a client. Jonas Salk famously tested his new Polio vaccine on himself and his family to help assure a nervous public that it was safe. The I use the product myself method of persuasion/sales can be very effective in any industry. -Mike Chabot On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I disagree with the suggestion that the technologies major companies decide to use is unimportant to developers. I am active in the Microsoft developer and database communities and I can say with certainty that Microsoft makes a big deal about how they use their own technologies to power their company. Here's a handy Google search: filetype:swf site:microsoft.com estimated results: 11,700 I wonder why that's not all Silverlight? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341614 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Fair enough. Though it's still kind of missing my point. My point is that is Adobe doesn't use CF it should at least mask the use of other technologies. That's easy to do and fairly cheap. You can _look_ like you aren't using php without much trouble. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Wow, this is way off topic now eh! There is a well known saying use the best tool for the job. And as Dave will agree, CF is not always the best tool for the job, and I guess Adobe themselves even know that, even Microsoft dont claim that Winodws/IIS is the best solution for every job. For example, If I want to write a custom app from scratch, or it needs to be something I can easily update myself then I would use CF every time of course as I know CF and I love CF. However if I simply want an App that does a specific/common job and I dont plan to get my own hands dirty in the code, I will first look to the open source world, and usually I will find a PHP solution. For example, if you wanted to build a social networking community then there is really nothing like this for CF, you would have to write it yourself, which is a lot of work/time/cost. Or you could go and download ELGG, Dolphin or one of the many well-known PHP solutions and be up and running in no time. If you have the time and thousands of $ available to roll your own exactly how you want, then awesome, otherwise it is really a no brainer. And this particular scenario covers so many apps and situations, if you have a client who doesnt have the budget for you to write a CF solution and there is no open source CF solution, what do you do? Look outside the box for a solution that will fit the job/budget. It would be gr8 if CF had as many open source apps as PHP, but CFdevelopers tend to want to be paid for their work, which I guess is only fair if they had to pay for CF, plus of course the proportion of cfdeveloper compared to php developers is tiny, so clearly there is not as many people out there with the time or inclination to write OSS apps. Perhaps Railo/OBD will change this, but not by very much I reckon. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: 28 January 2011 06:40 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? This isn't actually true at all, Dave. To give one high profile example, take Hotmail. Microsoft got a huge amount of shit for the fact that Hotmail ran on Linux (or BSD? I think BSD) with Apache. Sure, they bought Hotmail and that was the primary reason. But people kept saying oh, Windows and IIS can't handle the load so they have to stick with BSD. There were plenty of tech articles about whether Microsoft could actually run Hotmail on Windows, how expensive it would be, etc. Finally, MS eventually moved it over but they had to put significant time and energy into the project. They even announced that they had moved it to Windows only to have to retract that statement a couple days later, admitting that some of the bits still ran on BSD. I seem to recall that MS totally fucked up Hotmail in the move as well but that could have been some of their other major screw ups. Microsoft acquired Hotmail in 1997. They migrated it to Windows in 2000/2001. Apparently, they didn't feel the need to do this very quickly. And I think there's a significant difference. At the time, there was a real, open question about whether Windows could fill this niche. Current versions really couldn't. NT 4 and IIS 3 and 4 weren't capable of doing this. But no one doubts that, say, the free RIA tools site could be written in CF. Large parts of the main Adobe site are, in fact, written in CF. Eating your own dogfood is still an important concept in the tech world and I think you sell it short. Adobe has a lot of different dog food, though. They have CF, LiveCycle, Day Software, and Contribute/Dreamweaver. Which one of those should they pick? As a tools vendor, they make products that explicitly are designed to interact with Java, ASP.NET and PHP: Dreamweaver, Flash Builder, LiveCycle Workbench. The Flex team probably has more customers using PHP than CF. The Flash team certainly does. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341615 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Yes but why bother? I'm sure if they were getting thousands of complaints then they would do so just for some peace and quiet, but my bet is that not many people really care. My old cfdeveloper.co.uk site ran on ASP because I found a community portal app that did the job, I received the odd comment from people because it was ASP and not CFML, but out of the thousands of members the site had, this was insignificant and not enough to bother me or warrant me changing it. Russ -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:00 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Fair enough. Though it's still kind of missing my point. My point is that is Adobe doesn't use CF it should at least mask the use of other technologies. That's easy to do and fairly cheap. You can _look_ like you aren't using php without much trouble. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Wow, this is way off topic now eh! There is a well known saying use the best tool for the job. And as Dave will agree, CF is not always the best tool for the job, and I guess Adobe themselves even know that, even Microsoft don't claim that Winodws/IIS is the best solution for every job. For example, If I want to write a custom app from scratch, or it needs to be something I can easily update myself then I would use CF every time of course as I know CF and I love CF. However if I simply want an App that does a specific/common job and I don't plan to get my own hands dirty in the code, I will first look to the open source world, and usually I will find a PHP solution. For example, if you wanted to build a social networking community then there is really nothing like this for CF, you would have to write it yourself, which is a lot of work/time/cost. Or you could go and download ELGG, Dolphin or one of the many well-known PHP solutions and be up and running in no time. If you have the time and thousands of $ available to roll your own exactly how you want, then awesome, otherwise it is really a no brainer. And this particular scenario covers so many apps and situations, if you have a client who doesn't have the budget for you to write a CF solution and there is no open source CF solution, what do you do? Look outside the box for a solution that will fit the job/budget. It would be gr8 if CF had as many open source apps as PHP, but CFdevelopers tend to want to be paid for their work, which I guess is only fair if they had to pay for CF, plus of course the proportion of cfdeveloper compared to php developers is tiny, so clearly there is not as many people out there with the time or inclination to write OSS apps. Perhaps Railo/OBD will change this, but not by very much I reckon. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: 28 January 2011 06:40 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? This isn't actually true at all, Dave. To give one high profile example, take Hotmail. Microsoft got a huge amount of shit for the fact that Hotmail ran on Linux (or BSD? I think BSD) with Apache. Sure, they bought Hotmail and that was the primary reason. But people kept saying oh, Windows and IIS can't handle the load so they have to stick with BSD. There were plenty of tech articles about whether Microsoft could actually run Hotmail on Windows, how expensive it would be, etc. Finally, MS eventually moved it over but they had to put significant time and energy into the project. They even announced that they had moved it to Windows only to have to retract that statement a couple days later, admitting that some of the bits still ran on BSD. I seem to recall that MS totally fucked up Hotmail in the move as well but that could have been some of their other major screw ups. Microsoft acquired Hotmail in 1997. They migrated it to Windows in 2000/2001. Apparently, they didn't feel the need to do this very quickly. And I think there's a significant difference. At the time, there was a real, open question about whether Windows could fill this niche. Current versions really couldn't. NT 4 and IIS 3 and 4 weren't capable of doing this. But no one doubts that, say, the free RIA tools site could be written in CF. Large parts of the main Adobe site are, in fact, written in CF. Eating your own dogfood is still an important concept in the tech world and I think you sell it short. Adobe has a lot of different dog food, though. They have CF, LiveCycle, Day Software, and Contribute/Dreamweaver. Which one of those should they pick? As a tools vendor, they make products that explicitly are designed to interact with Java, ASP.NET and PHP: Dreamweaver, Flash Builder, LiveCycle Workbench. The Flex team probably has more customers using PHP than CF. The Flash team certainly does. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I've already explained why to bother. The same argument could be made about Why bother changing a logo or a corporate brand? I doubt any company gets thousands of complaints about their current brand or logo. The reason is optics. If you aren't into marketing you likely won't get it. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Yes but why bother? I'm sure if they were getting thousands of complaints then they would do so just for some peace and quiet, but my bet is that not many people really care. My old cfdeveloper.co.uk site ran on ASP because I found a community portal app that did the job, I received the odd comment from people because it was ASP and not CFML, but out of the thousands of members the site had, this was insignificant and not enough to bother me or warrant me changing it. Russ -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:00 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Fair enough. Though it's still kind of missing my point. My point is that is Adobe doesn't use CF it should at least mask the use of other technologies. That's easy to do and fairly cheap. You can _look_ like you aren't using php without much trouble. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Wow, this is way off topic now eh! There is a well known saying use the best tool for the job. And as Dave will agree, CF is not always the best tool for the job, and I guess Adobe themselves even know that, even Microsoft don't claim that Winodws/IIS is the best solution for every job. For example, If I want to write a custom app from scratch, or it needs to be something I can easily update myself then I would use CF every time of course as I know CF and I love CF. However if I simply want an App that does a specific/common job and I don't plan to get my own hands dirty in the code, I will first look to the open source world, and usually I will find a PHP solution. For example, if you wanted to build a social networking community then there is really nothing like this for CF, you would have to write it yourself, which is a lot of work/time/cost. Or you could go and download ELGG, Dolphin or one of the many well-known PHP solutions and be up and running in no time. If you have the time and thousands of $ available to roll your own exactly how you want, then awesome, otherwise it is really a no brainer. And this particular scenario covers so many apps and situations, if you have a client who doesn't have the budget for you to write a CF solution and there is no open source CF solution, what do you do? Look outside the box for a solution that will fit the job/budget. It would be gr8 if CF had as many open source apps as PHP, but CFdevelopers tend to want to be paid for their work, which I guess is only fair if they had to pay for CF, plus of course the proportion of cfdeveloper compared to php developers is tiny, so clearly there is not as many people out there with the time or inclination to write OSS apps. Perhaps Railo/OBD will change this, but not by very much I reckon. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: 28 January 2011 06:40 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? This isn't actually true at all, Dave. To give one high profile example, take Hotmail. Microsoft got a huge amount of shit for the fact that Hotmail ran on Linux (or BSD? I think BSD) with Apache. Sure, they bought Hotmail and that was the primary reason. But people kept saying oh, Windows and IIS can't handle the load so they have to stick with BSD. There were plenty of tech articles about whether Microsoft could actually run Hotmail on Windows, how expensive it would be, etc. Finally, MS eventually moved it over but they had to put significant time and energy into the project. They even announced that they had moved it to Windows only to have to retract that statement a couple days later, admitting that some of the bits still ran on BSD. I seem to recall that MS totally fucked up Hotmail in the move as well but that could have been some of their other major screw ups. Microsoft acquired Hotmail in 1997. They migrated it to Windows in 2000/2001. Apparently, they didn't feel the need to do this very quickly. And I think there's a significant difference. At the time, there was a real, open question about whether Windows could fill this niche. Current versions really couldn't. NT 4 and IIS 3 and 4 weren't capable of doing this. But no one doubts that, say, the free RIA tools site could be written in CF. Large parts of the main Adobe site are, in fact, written in CF. Eating your own dogfood is still an important concept in the tech world and I think you sell it short. Adobe has a lot of different
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Mike, But Microsoft owns the whole stack from the OS down to the programming languages themselves Adobe is a different sort of company. -Mark -Original Message- From: Mike Chabot [mailto:mcha...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 12:15 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? I disagree with the suggestion that the technologies major companies decide to use is unimportant to developers. I am active in the Microsoft developer and database communities and I can say with certainty that Microsoft makes a big deal about how they use their own technologies to power their company. The phrase we eat our own dog food is used all the time in Microsoft presentations. Scott Guthrie seems to mention this in every talk he gives. I have heard we use the technology ourselves used as a selling point for SQL Server 2008, Exchange 2010, IIS 7, Visual Studio 2010, WPF, Silverlight, SQL Azure, and other well known technologies. In fact, for every Microsoft technology I can think of that is targeted at IT people, one of the main selling points is we use this product ourselves so we are motivated to make it better by our own internal IT staff. When Microsoft does not use one of their own promoted in-house technologies for something, such as not using WPF for MS Office 2010, the criticism is loud and widespread. The Microsoft developer community erupted with criticism a couple months ago when Bob Muglia, who was one of the top guys at MS until recently, publicly expressed Microsoft's commitment for HTML 5, a non-Microsoft technology and a direct competitor to Microsoft's in-house technologies. If you don't typically see these types of issues discussed with tech companies other than Adobe, it is because publicly using competing products normally should not happen. When Steve Jobs appears on stage, he has an iPod in his pocket, a MacBook on the podium, and a Keynote presentation on the big screen. If he showed up with a Zune, a computer running Windows 7, and a PowerPoint presentation, it would absolutely be a popular topic of conversation. The fact that Microsoft uses their own technologies is a big deal to me. Upgrading a mission critical database is always risky. The fact that Microsoft used SQL Server 2008 to power their own Web sites and applications, even while the product was still under development, gave me added confidence that SQL Server 2008 was stable enough to use right after it was released for sale. One of the reasons a Microsoft manager said that Silverlight/WPF advanced as fast as it did was because Visual Studio 2010 was built on the Windows Presentation Foundation framework, and feedback/pressure from their own VS2010 development team was used to rapidly advance Silverlight to the v4 version. Based on my knowledge of the inner workings of certain large organizations, there is typically huge pressure on managers to not be seen using competing products. The CEO of Coca-Cola will never be seen enjoying a Pepsi. Steve Balmer will never be seen talking on an iPhone. If someone handed him one he would smash it on the ground as quickly and as forcefully as he could. Adobe appears to lack the same internal pressure and competitive spirit that exists in other successful large corporations. Adobe has an excuse in that they acquired most of their major development products, but that excuse cannot be used forever. -Mike Chabot http://www.linkedin.com/in/chabot http://www.linkedin.com/in/chabot On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: if you go on mailing lists for those other products, you don't find developers talking about what's used on what web sites, and how that reflects on anything meaningful. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341626 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
But they both sell software...they must be identical. /sarcasm On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote: Mike, But Microsoft owns the whole stack from the OS down to the programming languages themselves Adobe is a different sort of company. -Mark -Original Message- From: Mike Chabot [mailto:mcha...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 12:15 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? I disagree with the suggestion that the technologies major companies decide to use is unimportant to developers. I am active in the Microsoft developer and database communities and I can say with certainty that Microsoft makes a big deal about how they use their own technologies to power their company. The phrase we eat our own dog food is used all the time in Microsoft presentations. Scott Guthrie seems to mention this in every talk he gives. I have heard we use the technology ourselves used as a selling point for SQL Server 2008, Exchange 2010, IIS 7, Visual Studio 2010, WPF, Silverlight, SQL Azure, and other well known technologies. In fact, for every Microsoft technology I can think of that is targeted at IT people, one of the main selling points is we use this product ourselves so we are motivated to make it better by our own internal IT staff. When Microsoft does not use one of their own promoted in-house technologies for something, such as not using WPF for MS Office 2010, the criticism is loud and widespread. The Microsoft developer community erupted with criticism a couple months ago when Bob Muglia, who was one of the top guys at MS until recently, publicly expressed Microsoft's commitment for HTML 5, a non-Microsoft technology and a direct competitor to Microsoft's in-house technologies. If you don't typically see these types of issues discussed with tech companies other than Adobe, it is because publicly using competing products normally should not happen. When Steve Jobs appears on stage, he has an iPod in his pocket, a MacBook on the podium, and a Keynote presentation on the big screen. If he showed up with a Zune, a computer running Windows 7, and a PowerPoint presentation, it would absolutely be a popular topic of conversation. The fact that Microsoft uses their own technologies is a big deal to me. Upgrading a mission critical database is always risky. The fact that Microsoft used SQL Server 2008 to power their own Web sites and applications, even while the product was still under development, gave me added confidence that SQL Server 2008 was stable enough to use right after it was released for sale. One of the reasons a Microsoft manager said that Silverlight/WPF advanced as fast as it did was because Visual Studio 2010 was built on the Windows Presentation Foundation framework, and feedback/pressure from their own VS2010 development team was used to rapidly advance Silverlight to the v4 version. Based on my knowledge of the inner workings of certain large organizations, there is typically huge pressure on managers to not be seen using competing products. The CEO of Coca-Cola will never be seen enjoying a Pepsi. Steve Balmer will never be seen talking on an iPhone. If someone handed him one he would smash it on the ground as quickly and as forcefully as he could. Adobe appears to lack the same internal pressure and competitive spirit that exists in other successful large corporations. Adobe has an excuse in that they acquired most of their major development products, but that excuse cannot be used forever. -Mike Chabot http://www.linkedin.com/in/chabot http://www.linkedin.com/in/chabot On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: if you go on mailing lists for those other products, you don't find developers talking about what's used on what web sites, and how that reflects on anything meaningful. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341627 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Microsoft's uncertain commitment to Silverlight is the biggest area of concern for many Microsoft developers at present. Well, to put this in a larger context, Microsoft has a history of throwing things out into the marketplace, then dropping them if they don't go anywhere, or killing them without giving them a chance to grow, or superseding them with newer incompatible products. PlaysForSure Windows Mobile ASP 3 The ASP predecessor (IDX? I forget what it was called) Visual FoxPro Those five are literally off the top of my head, and I happen to have personal experience with them. So I can see why MS developers might be a little leery. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341628 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I've already explained why to bother. The same argument could be made about Why bother changing a logo or a corporate brand? I doubt any company gets thousands of complaints about their current brand or logo. The reason is optics. If you aren't into marketing you likely won't get it. I'm not into marketing. But I assume that for a given marketing endeavor, one can decide whether the cost is worth the benefit. You and I have no way to accurately identify the cost or the benefit. You're speculating that the cost is low and the benefit is high. I'm speculating that the cost is higher than you think, and the benefit is lower than you think. Presumably, Adobe has better insight into both than we do. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341629 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
All, Are there bugs in ColdFusion Builder? Yes. Will there be bugs in the next release? Yes. I hope that as professional software developers we can understand that software ships with defects. Some bugs are known, some unknown. Some are critical to many, some are critical to just a few. -Adam On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.auwrote: Ray, You really don't want me to get started on Adobe and the pricing off CFB. Screw it It is overpriced, I use it because I was given a copy for home and it was bought for me at work. Would I buy the next version, no I am going to be very reserved on that. The reason being is that while other products in the Adobe range get constant updates, and other software vendors release constant updates. ColdFusion and ColdFusion Builder get let me see 1 update, in other words unless you pay for the support to get your problem fixed it is not fixed nor is it released in a subsequent update. Adam is clear in saying in the latest CFhour that it is in his team's best interests to move straight onto the next release, and that means that if you are waiting for bugs you are forced to fork out money for another product release. This is wrong, and something adobe should take under consideration. If the current release is actually stopping people from using the product, as people have described, would it not make more sense to be proactive and release more updates and get the product to a more stable product. Hell these bugs have to be fixed sooner or later, and Adobe's attitude is later, and if that means alienating customers they don't seem to care. I strongly advise Adam to listen to his customers, and begin to release more updates/fixes during the 2 years between ColdFusion releases, and to begin releasing more updates for ColdFusion Builder. Otherwise I don't care how good the next version of Builder is I personally will not be buying it, I don't like greed in a company, and this model comes across as greed. Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341630 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I fully agree. The pace of change in Microsoft land is very stressful to developers. They kill off and deprecate multiple technologies and product features each year. Microsoft scrapping DTS sent many database developers back into training classes. Adobe also has a history of killing off products. GoLive, Freehand and Spectra come to mind. Granted, Adobe is nowhere near as bad as Microsoft in this regard. -Mike Chabot On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Microsoft's uncertain commitment to Silverlight is the biggest area of concern for many Microsoft developers at present. Well, to put this in a larger context, Microsoft has a history of throwing things out into the marketplace, then dropping them if they don't go anywhere, or killing them without giving them a chance to grow, or superseding them with newer incompatible products. PlaysForSure Windows Mobile ASP 3 The ASP predecessor (IDX? I forget what it was called) Visual FoxPro Those five are literally off the top of my head, and I happen to have personal experience with them. So I can see why MS developers might be a little leery. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341634 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I don't really think your analogy is relevant, No company would change their logo just because a couple of people don't like it but hat is hardly even similar. I know enough about marketing to know that you need a good business case to warrant spending lots of cash and man hours on something, it needs to be a viable idea in some way, either to drive sales, profit, brand awareness. Usually Because 3 people thinks it is a good idea, would not be considered a good business decision. -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:11 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? I've already explained why to bother. The same argument could be made about Why bother changing a logo or a corporate brand? I doubt any company gets thousands of complaints about their current brand or logo. The reason is optics. If you aren't into marketing you likely won't get it. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Yes but why bother? I'm sure if they were getting thousands of complaints then they would do so just for some peace and quiet, but my bet is that not many people really care. My old cfdeveloper.co.uk site ran on ASP because I found a community portal app that did the job, I received the odd comment from people because it was ASP and not CFML, but out of the thousands of members the site had, this was insignificant and not enough to bother me or warrant me changing it. Russ -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:00 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Fair enough. Though it's still kind of missing my point. My point is that is Adobe doesn't use CF it should at least mask the use of other technologies. That's easy to do and fairly cheap. You can _look_ like you aren't using php without much trouble. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Wow, this is way off topic now eh! There is a well known saying use the best tool for the job. And as Dave will agree, CF is not always the best tool for the job, and I guess Adobe themselves even know that, even Microsoft don't claim that Winodws/IIS is the best solution for every job. For example, If I want to write a custom app from scratch, or it needs to be something I can easily update myself then I would use CF every time of course as I know CF and I love CF. However if I simply want an App that does a specific/common job and I don't plan to get my own hands dirty in the code, I will first look to the open source world, and usually I will find a PHP solution. For example, if you wanted to build a social networking community then there is really nothing like this for CF, you would have to write it yourself, which is a lot of work/time/cost. Or you could go and download ELGG, Dolphin or one of the many well-known PHP solutions and be up and running in no time. If you have the time and thousands of $ available to roll your own exactly how you want, then awesome, otherwise it is really a no brainer. And this particular scenario covers so many apps and situations, if you have a client who doesn't have the budget for you to write a CF solution and there is no open source CF solution, what do you do? Look outside the box for a solution that will fit the job/budget. It would be gr8 if CF had as many open source apps as PHP, but CFdevelopers tend to want to be paid for their work, which I guess is only fair if they had to pay for CF, plus of course the proportion of cfdeveloper compared to php developers is tiny, so clearly there is not as many people out there with the time or inclination to write OSS apps. Perhaps Railo/OBD will change this, but not by very much I reckon. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: 28 January 2011 06:40 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? This isn't actually true at all, Dave. To give one high profile example, take Hotmail. Microsoft got a huge amount of shit for the fact that Hotmail ran on Linux (or BSD? I think BSD) with Apache. Sure, they bought Hotmail and that was the primary reason. But people kept saying oh, Windows and IIS can't handle the load so they have to stick with BSD. There were plenty of tech articles about whether Microsoft could actually run Hotmail on Windows, how expensive it would be, etc. Finally, MS eventually moved it over but they had to put significant time and energy into the project. They even announced that they had moved it to Windows only to have to retract that statement a couple days later, admitting that some of the bits still ran on BSD. I seem to recall that MS totally fucked up Hotmail in the move as well but that could have been some
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Am I in bizarro land? No one can see an advantage to (as others have stated) eating your own dog food? Before you know it Steve Jobs will be telling me to use Windows. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: I don't really think your analogy is relevant, No company would change their logo just because a couple of people don't like it but hat is hardly even similar. I know enough about marketing to know that you need a good business case to warrant spending lots of cash and man hours on something, it needs to be a viable idea in some way, either to drive sales, profit, brand awareness. Usually Because 3 people thinks it is a good idea, would not be considered a good business decision. -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:11 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? I've already explained why to bother. The same argument could be made about Why bother changing a logo or a corporate brand? I doubt any company gets thousands of complaints about their current brand or logo. The reason is optics. If you aren't into marketing you likely won't get it. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Yes but why bother? I'm sure if they were getting thousands of complaints then they would do so just for some peace and quiet, but my bet is that not many people really care. My old cfdeveloper.co.uk site ran on ASP because I found a community portal app that did the job, I received the odd comment from people because it was ASP and not CFML, but out of the thousands of members the site had, this was insignificant and not enough to bother me or warrant me changing it. Russ -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:00 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Fair enough. Though it's still kind of missing my point. My point is that is Adobe doesn't use CF it should at least mask the use of other technologies. That's easy to do and fairly cheap. You can _look_ like you aren't using php without much trouble. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Wow, this is way off topic now eh! There is a well known saying use the best tool for the job. And as Dave will agree, CF is not always the best tool for the job, and I guess Adobe themselves even know that, even Microsoft don't claim that Winodws/IIS is the best solution for every job. For example, If I want to write a custom app from scratch, or it needs to be something I can easily update myself then I would use CF every time of course as I know CF and I love CF. However if I simply want an App that does a specific/common job and I don't plan to get my own hands dirty in the code, I will first look to the open source world, and usually I will find a PHP solution. For example, if you wanted to build a social networking community then there is really nothing like this for CF, you would have to write it yourself, which is a lot of work/time/cost. Or you could go and download ELGG, Dolphin or one of the many well-known PHP solutions and be up and running in no time. If you have the time and thousands of $ available to roll your own exactly how you want, then awesome, otherwise it is really a no brainer. And this particular scenario covers so many apps and situations, if you have a client who doesn't have the budget for you to write a CF solution and there is no open source CF solution, what do you do? Look outside the box for a solution that will fit the job/budget. It would be gr8 if CF had as many open source apps as PHP, but CFdevelopers tend to want to be paid for their work, which I guess is only fair if they had to pay for CF, plus of course the proportion of cfdeveloper compared to php developers is tiny, so clearly there is not as many people out there with the time or inclination to write OSS apps. Perhaps Railo/OBD will change this, but not by very much I reckon. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: 28 January 2011 06:40 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? This isn't actually true at all, Dave. To give one high profile example, take Hotmail. Microsoft got a huge amount of shit for the fact that Hotmail ran on Linux (or BSD? I think BSD) with Apache. Sure, they bought Hotmail and that was the primary reason. But people kept saying oh, Windows and IIS can't handle the load so they have to stick with BSD. There were plenty of tech articles about whether Microsoft could actually run Hotmail on Windows, how expensive it would be, etc. Finally, MS eventually moved it over but they had to put significant time
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Of course Michael we can see the advantage, it just isn;t keeping the rest of us awake at night worrying about it. Your also still missing the point I think. Sometimes it is simply not viable, economical, a good business decision etc to do what you want. If you have the choice between a solution that can be deployed right now or a solution that would take 12 months work and cost you shed loads of money, which do you choose? OK so you would probably choose the 12 month loads of $ solution, but in those 12 months you have nothing running and are missing out on potential business. And as has been pointed out, most of Adobe's site is actually written in CF. Honestly I think you are in a very small minority of people who cannot sleep because part of Adobe's site is not in CF. -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 23:43 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Am I in bizarro land? No one can see an advantage to (as others have stated) eating your own dog food? Before you know it Steve Jobs will be telling me to use Windows. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: I don't really think your analogy is relevant, No company would change their logo just because a couple of people don't like it but hat is hardly even similar. I know enough about marketing to know that you need a good business case to warrant spending lots of cash and man hours on something, it needs to be a viable idea in some way, either to drive sales, profit, brand awareness. Usually Because 3 people thinks it is a good idea, would not be considered a good business decision. -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:11 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? I've already explained why to bother. The same argument could be made about Why bother changing a logo or a corporate brand? I doubt any company gets thousands of complaints about their current brand or logo. The reason is optics. If you aren't into marketing you likely won't get it. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Yes but why bother? I'm sure if they were getting thousands of complaints then they would do so just for some peace and quiet, but my bet is that not many people really care. My old cfdeveloper.co.uk site ran on ASP because I found a community portal app that did the job, I received the odd comment from people because it was ASP and not CFML, but out of the thousands of members the site had, this was insignificant and not enough to bother me or warrant me changing it. Russ -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:00 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Fair enough. Though it's still kind of missing my point. My point is that is Adobe doesn't use CF it should at least mask the use of other technologies. That's easy to do and fairly cheap. You can _look_ like you aren't using php without much trouble. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Wow, this is way off topic now eh! There is a well known saying use the best tool for the job. And as Dave will agree, CF is not always the best tool for the job, and I guess Adobe themselves even know that, even Microsoft don't claim that Winodws/IIS is the best solution for every job. For example, If I want to write a custom app from scratch, or it needs to be something I can easily update myself then I would use CF every time of course as I know CF and I love CF. However if I simply want an App that does a specific/common job and I don't plan to get my own hands dirty in the code, I will first look to the open source world, and usually I will find a PHP solution. For example, if you wanted to build a social networking community then there is really nothing like this for CF, you would have to write it yourself, which is a lot of work/time/cost. Or you could go and download ELGG, Dolphin or one of the many well-known PHP solutions and be up and running in no time. If you have the time and thousands of $ available to roll your own exactly how you want, then awesome, otherwise it is really a no brainer. And this particular scenario covers so many apps and situations, if you have a client who doesn't have the budget for you to write a CF solution and there is no open source CF solution, what do you do? Look outside the box for a solution that will fit the job/budget. It would be gr8 if CF had as many open source apps as PHP, but CFdevelopers tend to want to be paid for their work, which I guess is only fair if they had to pay for CF, plus of course the proportion of cfdeveloper compared to php developers is tiny, so clearly
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I can sleep, no worries mate. It does however ring as a shortsighted and an inconsistent message of the brand. But that's just my opinion as a guy who makes these types of decisions. Though for much smaller clients than Adobe. I feel masking the use of php on any CF branded Adobe pages (NOT rewriting dozens of apps in CF) could probably be done for under 20k of internal resourcing. There's a number of ways to handle this either through code or through the webserver. URL rewrite anyone? To me that's a worthwhile decision. You may not think so. And that's fine. I won't be recommending you for a marketing manager any time soon. ;) I do wonder though why do so many of you seem to take the tack that if a company does (or doesn't do) something that it's both a) a fully thought out and analyzed decision and b) the right one. Many many companies, even monster companies, don't have a consistent corporate message. Many times things are half thought out if even that. It's not always a master plan as many here would indicate. Oh Adobe did x? Well that's clearly because they've had exhaustive analysis and a master plan. Maybe they do have a master plan that includes using PHP on CF related pages. If so, I think it's a poor one. Here, let me fill in your responses: Well no one knows their business better than Adobe. They know what they're doing much better than you. You are handsome Mr. Grant. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Of course Michael we can see the advantage, it just isn;t keeping the rest of us awake at night worrying about it. Your also still missing the point I think. Sometimes it is simply not viable, economical, a good business decision etc to do what you want. If you have the choice between a solution that can be deployed right now or a solution that would take 12 months work and cost you shed loads of money, which do you choose? OK so you would probably choose the 12 month loads of $ solution, but in those 12 months you have nothing running and are missing out on potential business. And as has been pointed out, most of Adobe's site is actually written in CF. Honestly I think you are in a very small minority of people who cannot sleep because part of Adobe's site is not in CF. -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 23:43 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Am I in bizarro land? No one can see an advantage to (as others have stated) eating your own dog food? Before you know it Steve Jobs will be telling me to use Windows. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: I don't really think your analogy is relevant, No company would change their logo just because a couple of people don't like it but hat is hardly even similar. I know enough about marketing to know that you need a good business case to warrant spending lots of cash and man hours on something, it needs to be a viable idea in some way, either to drive sales, profit, brand awareness. Usually Because 3 people thinks it is a good idea, would not be considered a good business decision. -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:11 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? I've already explained why to bother. The same argument could be made about Why bother changing a logo or a corporate brand? I doubt any company gets thousands of complaints about their current brand or logo. The reason is optics. If you aren't into marketing you likely won't get it. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Yes but why bother? I'm sure if they were getting thousands of complaints then they would do so just for some peace and quiet, but my bet is that not many people really care. My old cfdeveloper.co.uk site ran on ASP because I found a community portal app that did the job, I received the odd comment from people because it was ASP and not CFML, but out of the thousands of members the site had, this was insignificant and not enough to bother me or warrant me changing it. Russ -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: 28 January 2011 14:00 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Fair enough. Though it's still kind of missing my point. My point is that is Adobe doesn't use CF it should at least mask the use of other technologies. That's easy to do and fairly cheap. You can _look_ like you aren't using php without much trouble. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Wow, this is way off topic now eh! There is a well known saying use the best tool for the job. And as Dave will agree, CF is not always the best tool
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I do wonder though why do so many of you seem to take the tack that if a company does (or doesn't do) something that it's both a) a fully thought out and analyzed decision and b) the right one. Maybe, maybe not. I don't think I mentioned a master plan. What I did mention, was that they have a better vantage point on their own business than you or I do. They've almost certainly done more market research on their business than you or I have - I don't know about you, but I haven't done any. If they don't have a master plan, maybe you should be happy - if they did, it would probably involve one of their other products. Again, Adobe has a LOT of server products. CF is just one among many. Here, let me fill in your responses: I can do that too: I know so much about marketing from my experience with small/midtier companies in completely different lines of business that I can accurately make a cost-benefit analysis without any background information other than my own wild-ass guesses. That's kind of fun! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341684 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Michael Grant wrote: I can sleep, no worries mate. The strength of your opinion belies that statement. You know you lie awake at night, tossing and turning over this in agony. Admit it. =) ... I feel masking the use of php on any CF branded Adobe pages (NOT rewriting dozens of apps in CF) could probably be done for under 20k of internal resourcing. There's a number of ways to handle this either through code or through the webserver. URL rewrite anyone? To me that's a worthwhile decision. You may not think so. And that's fine. I won't be recommending you for a marketing manager any time soon. ;) Maybe they're short on webmasters. Or are worried about the search ranking. :) I'll do the rewrites for a mere 10k! Hell, I'd do it for free, just to never see this raised as a topic again. And to avoid that ugh feeling whenever I see .php at the end of a CF-related page. No offense to PHP, which is a fine language- just less totes awesome than CFML. ... Well no one knows their business better than Adobe. They know what they're doing much better than you. You are handsome Mr. Grant. You forgot modest. I always include that in my responses when speaking of your handsomeness, just for completeness. :Den -- Happiness: a good bank account, a good cook, and a good digestion. Jean-Jacques Rousseau ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341686 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
WTF? You know you can use cfeclipse for free right? So if CFB is too rich for you, go right ahead and pick up a free cfml ide. I'm sure Adobe will survive. And the next time I want a free website, I'll be sure to come to you since you clearly don't believe in charging for your work. -Original Message- From: Dave Long [mailto:d...@northgoods.com] Sent: 26 January 2011 22:05 To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? I do appreciate the assistance I have received from members of this group but overpriced goods squeeze the cynicism out of my pores. It seems defenders of Adobe's pricing like to compare the cost of CFB to tools used by carpenters, plumbers and mechanics. However, that comparison is invalid because there is only a small reduction of manufacturing costs as volume of real world tool sales increases. Margin does not necessarily increase as more units are sold. This is not true of software which, once developed, has only minute costs involved as more copies are sold. Margin increases rapidly and thus the software could be priced at one half the price and sales might double with margin remaining intact, increasing at a slower rate perhaps but increasing none the less. Oh well, they were told at Harvard that greed is good! Bill Gates set the standard and they all want to be him at the expense of their customers. Why settle for being millionaires when you can soak your customers and be billionaires. Another factor in Adobe's pricing is to discourage entry as much as possible. This approach has been used by AutoDesk since the 1990s and prevents a lot of architect wannabees carpenters from designing the buildings they build. With CFNL as simple as it is, every high school senior in the country might be jumping into data driven design. Perhaps the folks at Adobe even want to kill it off, judging by the price charged for their Enterprise version. Time to learn PHP, I guess. Dave -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 3:15 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? It would be nice if unicorns shit rainbows too. Well, you can get unicorn meat:) http://www.thinkgeek.com/caffeine/wacky-edibles/e5a7/ I don't know. Look at where those rainbows are in the meat chart. I think I covered that in my initial statement. I always choose my words carefully. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341504 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I can't believe you said mac's have bugs give me a call - I know a guy in the witness protection. -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:rcam...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 7:03 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? As I said - I'm sure there are bugs in the product - just Windows and Mac have bugs. But I've been using CFB full time now since the full Alpha, as have others, so maybe you in the minority. Perhaps? -Ray ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341506 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
What heap size are you running? Sounds like your JVM is resource constrained (drawing issues, line debugger etc). Eclipse has to be tuned like any other java app if you are using it heavily. -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott [mailto:andr...@andyscott.id.au] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 10:46 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? Ok let me clear one thing up, I never said it was a bad product. In fact my words where I don't think it is a great product, but from what I am hearing version 3 will be a must have for any developer. Now whether I think it is worth the price, is indeed my opinion. As for the bugs, I don't have the bug numbers on hand but here is a snippet of some of the ones that I endure on a daily basis. 1) When opening the IDE there are times when the colour syntax, and everything else that is related to ColdFusion just won't work. Granted this is not very often, but it is often enough to be annoying. 2) The outline feature never remembers whether it is collapsed or not, and it should also begin in the collapsed so people can drill in rather than drill out. 3) For no reason what so ever the heap will spike to the maximum, and hang the IDE. This can cause the IDE to be non responsive for upto 2-3 mins, before it will eventually come back as not responding. 4) When trying to stop a server in the servers view, the ColdFusion will eventually report stopped. When you go and restart it at a later stage, it errors saying that it is already running. Yet the IDE reports this as stopped, this is more notable on remote servers than local, but I have seen it on local servers as well. 5) When closing a lot of windows (Code files) by either using the Mylyn plugin, or by close all. For every single file closed there will be an error that will pop up saying something like, the file is not in the webroot or there is no server associated with the file so it is not able to be viewed. This is more noticeable when using Mylyn to activate/deactivate tasks, but as it also happens when not using Mylyn just not as often. 6) I can be scrolling through a large file and I mean around large, and the editor will just stop actually scrolling. To the point that the letters are changing, but they're not disappearing. Eventually you will get a totally black screen from the characters not updating correctly, the gutter with the line numbers also will not update when scrolling either. 7) The undo feature if you make a 1 to 5 letter change, and try to do an udo then you find that it tries to do an undo somewhere else in the file and you have to try to do an undo about 10-20 times before it catches upto your actual changes. This appears to be that it is trying to undo the syntax stuff, I could be wrong but it is buggy as hell when undoing code. 8) If you have a project on a UNC path, and close the IDE and re-open it. Sometimes it thinks that the path is not there and closes the project, even though you can go to the IDE file view and see the UNC path with no problems, and this also happens for mapped drives as well. If you try to open the project an error will occur, the only work around to this is that you have to go to the IDE's file view and browse into a directory then open the project. 9) When running the line debugger, each and every time you hit a break point the IDE gets slower and slower to fire the breakpoint. 10) When using the line debugger, and you are stepping through the lines of code. There are times when the Function Variable, just disappears. So there is no way to see what variables have been defined for a function. 11)When using the line debugger, there are times when stepping through large lines of code in a function it will just exit. Especially when in a loop and there is a cffile in that loop. 12) When trying to set a break point to use the line debugger, you will get told that this line ins unreachable, even when you look at the code it clearly is reachable. 13) After awhile the line debugger will just stop firing and you are forced to close the IDE, and restart it as well as stop and restart the ColdFusion server. 14) When typing some code, I can stop and hit the up arrow key before the color of the code is complete. And then I can get the IDE to have half blue lines across the screen for every line I scroll too. 15) Closing of tags is flaky, even with all the right settings if I type cfoutput sometimes I get the closing tag and sometimes I don't 16) Sometimes the icon to open the log files from the locally running server, will report that the server does not provide logs or is not local and other times it just works fine. I could go on with a lot more than this, but as these are the ones that I do see more reguallry than any other bug. A lot of these bugs are productivity killers, and others are well I'll just close the file and re-open it, to downright annoying. Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ -Original Message- From: Scott
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Mark, Unlike most people I have the heap status constantly displayed in my bottom right corner, and it isn't anything to do with that. You will have to trust me on that. It never reaches any more than 1/2 of what the JVM is setup for. Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger [mailto:mkru...@cfwebtools.com] Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2011 10:21 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? What heap size are you running? Sounds like your JVM is resource constrained (drawing issues, line debugger etc). Eclipse has to be tuned like any other java app if you are using it heavily. -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott [mailto:andr...@andyscott.id.au] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 10:46 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? Ok let me clear one thing up, I never said it was a bad product. In fact my words where I don't think it is a great product, but from what I am hearing version 3 will be a must have for any developer. Now whether I think it is worth the price, is indeed my opinion. As for the bugs, I don't have the bug numbers on hand but here is a snippet of some of the ones that I endure on a daily basis. 1) When opening the IDE there are times when the colour syntax, and everything else that is related to ColdFusion just won't work. Granted this is not very often, but it is often enough to be annoying. 2) The outline feature never remembers whether it is collapsed or not, and it should also begin in the collapsed so people can drill in rather than drill out. 3) For no reason what so ever the heap will spike to the maximum, and hang the IDE. This can cause the IDE to be non responsive for upto 2-3 mins, before it will eventually come back as not responding. 4) When trying to stop a server in the servers view, the ColdFusion will eventually report stopped. When you go and restart it at a later stage, it errors saying that it is already running. Yet the IDE reports this as stopped, this is more notable on remote servers than local, but I have seen it on local servers as well. 5) When closing a lot of windows (Code files) by either using the Mylyn plugin, or by close all. For every single file closed there will be an error that will pop up saying something like, the file is not in the webroot or there is no server associated with the file so it is not able to be viewed. This is more noticeable when using Mylyn to activate/deactivate tasks, but as it also happens when not using Mylyn just not as often. 6) I can be scrolling through a large file and I mean around large, and the editor will just stop actually scrolling. To the point that the letters are changing, but they're not disappearing. Eventually you will get a totally black screen from the characters not updating correctly, the gutter with the line numbers also will not update when scrolling either. 7) The undo feature if you make a 1 to 5 letter change, and try to do an udo then you find that it tries to do an undo somewhere else in the file and you have to try to do an undo about 10-20 times before it catches upto your actual changes. This appears to be that it is trying to undo the syntax stuff, I could be wrong but it is buggy as hell when undoing code. 8) If you have a project on a UNC path, and close the IDE and re-open it. Sometimes it thinks that the path is not there and closes the project, even though you can go to the IDE file view and see the UNC path with no problems, and this also happens for mapped drives as well. If you try to open the project an error will occur, the only work around to this is that you have to go to the IDE's file view and browse into a directory then open the project. 9) When running the line debugger, each and every time you hit a break point the IDE gets slower and slower to fire the breakpoint. 10) When using the line debugger, and you are stepping through the lines of code. There are times when the Function Variable, just disappears. So there is no way to see what variables have been defined for a function. 11)When using the line debugger, there are times when stepping through large lines of code in a function it will just exit. Especially when in a loop and there is a cffile in that loop. 12) When trying to set a break point to use the line debugger, you will get told that this line ins unreachable, even when you look at the code it clearly is reachable. 13) After awhile the line debugger will just stop firing and you are forced to close the IDE, and restart it as well as stop and restart the ColdFusion server. 14) When typing some code, I can stop and hit the up arrow key before the color of the code is complete. And then I can get the IDE to have half blue lines across the screen for every line I scroll too. 15) Closing of tags is flaky, even with all the right settings if I type cfoutput sometimes I get
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Well that was my only idea... so you are on your own now :) -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott [mailto:andr...@andyscott.id.au] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 5:39 AM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? Mark, Unlike most people I have the heap status constantly displayed in my bottom right corner, and it isn't anything to do with that. You will have to trust me on that. It never reaches any more than 1/2 of what the JVM is setup for. Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger [mailto:mkru...@cfwebtools.com] Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2011 10:21 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? What heap size are you running? Sounds like your JVM is resource constrained (drawing issues, line debugger etc). Eclipse has to be tuned like any other java app if you are using it heavily. -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott [mailto:andr...@andyscott.id.au] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 10:46 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? Ok let me clear one thing up, I never said it was a bad product. In fact my words where I don't think it is a great product, but from what I am hearing version 3 will be a must have for any developer. Now whether I think it is worth the price, is indeed my opinion. As for the bugs, I don't have the bug numbers on hand but here is a snippet of some of the ones that I endure on a daily basis. 1) When opening the IDE there are times when the colour syntax, and everything else that is related to ColdFusion just won't work. Granted this is not very often, but it is often enough to be annoying. 2) The outline feature never remembers whether it is collapsed or not, and it should also begin in the collapsed so people can drill in rather than drill out. 3) For no reason what so ever the heap will spike to the maximum, and hang the IDE. This can cause the IDE to be non responsive for upto 2-3 mins, before it will eventually come back as not responding. 4) When trying to stop a server in the servers view, the ColdFusion will eventually report stopped. When you go and restart it at a later stage, it errors saying that it is already running. Yet the IDE reports this as stopped, this is more notable on remote servers than local, but I have seen it on local servers as well. 5) When closing a lot of windows (Code files) by either using the Mylyn plugin, or by close all. For every single file closed there will be an error that will pop up saying something like, the file is not in the webroot or there is no server associated with the file so it is not able to be viewed. This is more noticeable when using Mylyn to activate/deactivate tasks, but as it also happens when not using Mylyn just not as often. 6) I can be scrolling through a large file and I mean around large, and the editor will just stop actually scrolling. To the point that the letters are changing, but they're not disappearing. Eventually you will get a totally black screen from the characters not updating correctly, the gutter with the line numbers also will not update when scrolling either. 7) The undo feature if you make a 1 to 5 letter change, and try to do an udo then you find that it tries to do an undo somewhere else in the file and you have to try to do an undo about 10-20 times before it catches upto your actual changes. This appears to be that it is trying to undo the syntax stuff, I could be wrong but it is buggy as hell when undoing code. 8) If you have a project on a UNC path, and close the IDE and re-open it. Sometimes it thinks that the path is not there and closes the project, even though you can go to the IDE file view and see the UNC path with no problems, and this also happens for mapped drives as well. If you try to open the project an error will occur, the only work around to this is that you have to go to the IDE's file view and browse into a directory then open the project. 9) When running the line debugger, each and every time you hit a break point the IDE gets slower and slower to fire the breakpoint. 10) When using the line debugger, and you are stepping through the lines of code. There are times when the Function Variable, just disappears. So there is no way to see what variables have been defined for a function. 11)When using the line debugger, there are times when stepping through large lines of code in a function it will just exit. Especially when in a loop and there is a cffile in that loop. 12) When trying to set a break point to use the line debugger, you will get told that this line ins unreachable, even when you look at the code it clearly is reachable. 13) After awhile the line debugger will just stop firing and you are forced to close the IDE, and restart it as well as stop and restart the ColdFusion server. 14) When typing some code, I can stop and hit the up arrow key
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Lol, sounds dangerous then... Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger [mailto:mkru...@cfwebtools.com] Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2011 10:43 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? Well that was my only idea... so you are on your own now :) ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341512 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Paying the $500 is the per incident support. So you've got an issue, you report it and ask for help. If it's a bug, you get your $500 back. You also have Platinum support, which is maintenance support. Maintenance is your subscription ... as long as you keep it valid, you get new releases at no addition charge (paying for maintenance is ALWAYS cheaper than paying for upgrades). The support is just that ... and no more $500 upfront to get some help. You've already paid an annual fee and you can bug Adobe support as much as you like (on a dedicated number/email). Andy On 27 January 2011 01:02, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.au wrote: ColdFusion and ColdFusion Builder get let me see 1 update, in other words CFB has had one update, yes. CF9 has had multiple updates. Both before 901 and _after_ 901. Multiple. You do know that, right? unless you pay for the support to get your problem fixed it is not fixed nor is it released in a subsequent update. Adam is clear in saying in the latest As far as I know, Adobe support will ONLY charge you if it isn't a bug. If you call them with an issue and it is Adobe's fault, you do not pay. That's the way it has _always_ been. If I'm wrong, please correct me. As for getting it fixed - Adobe has to prioritize bug fixes. _Every_ company does that. That's why you don't see perfect software _anywhere_ in our world. I can understand that a bug you find may be a deal killer for you, but if it ONLY impacts you, and Adobe makes the decision to work on bugs that impact hundreds of people, then I think Adobe has made the right choice. Obviously CFB is working great for a _lot_ of people. I don't think CFB will make everyone happy (just like any other software product). This is wrong, and something adobe should take under consideration. If the current release is actually stopping people from using the product, as people have described, would it not make more sense to be proactive and As I said - I'm sure there are bugs in the product - just Windows and Mac have bugs. But I've been using CFB full time now since the full Alpha, as have others, so maybe you in the minority. Perhaps? -Ray ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341513 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
And if it is a bug that Adobe has introduced, you should pay nothing up-front. They should just fix it. Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341514 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Where are you finding this info? The FAQ ( http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/cfbuilder/faq/ ) only says you need to be a current student (and that you aren't allowed to use it for production purposes, which does limit its usefulness for people on this list). Scott On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:12 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) sd1...@att.com wrote: One note on the student edition of CFBuilder, it is the only one that *requires* that you will be taking a course in ColdFusion at the college to get the free version. I applied for it a couple of times before I noticed that. Steve -- - Scott Brady http://www.scottbrady.net/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341515 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
: why is cf_builder so expensive? On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.au wrote: Mark, I think I made my stance very clear in a previous thread. I did say that the bugs will be fixed in the next release, and I feel that this is wrong and I might be a minority on that, Might be a minority on that? That's funny... I have been using CF Builder for at least as long as you have. I use it every day and have yet to encounter any bugs that would make me think its not worth the price. I am curious, what bug is it, that it seems only you have encountered, that makes CFB a bad piece of software, and, according to you, 'will never be fixed'? You surely know the bug number, so, why not share so we can go take a look for ourselves. -- Scott Stroz ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341516 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Yeah...i did miss that...sorry...
I agree...if you don't like what you do, you shouldn't do it.
I agree it takes a lot of hard work. I have been doing this for 13 years
and I busted my backside to get where I am now. I learned BASIC back in 8th
grade (which was 81-82...so yeah...you have a few years on me hehehe) when
it was part of our science class which lead me to getting my first job when
I was old enough to get my first computer, a C64. When I was in college,
did COBOL, JCL(I never put those on my resume out of fear I might get a good
job offer doing COBOL hehehe...I hated COBOL.), Pascal, Delphi, C, C++,Java,
SQL and VB...taught myself HTML and Javascript...as well as VBScript. A
designer friend of mine, who also knows CF, pointed me in the right
direction with CSS. I take classes when I can when my family life allows
it. I used to go to conferences all the time when they were in the Chicago
area, but life restrictions keep me from traveling these days and going to
the one I would love to go to, which seem to be concentrated on the west
coast. I just can't afford to fly out to California and put down 1000 for a
conference (I do like the $30 conference you guys were talking about...I
wish it was closer). Doing contract work doesn't lend to taking time off,
as I am sure you know...the economy hasn't helped that either. Chicago used
to have a great conference industry until all the union fees killed it.
When I was getting started in CF back in the last 90's, I used to go to
several conferences a year as they had them all the time here and they were
reasonably priced.
I'll have to pick that up when I can afford to do so. Sounds like an
interesting book. One of the things I lover about this field is having to
learn new tech...though as of late, that has mostly been limited to learning
what I need for the job and all the other stuff that I want to learn has
kinda gone to the wayside. Speaking of work...time to head out. Hope you
all have a great day ;-)
Eric
-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 00:23
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
This thread is deteriorating and I'm afraid this email is going to sound a
bit pissy. It's really not intended to but I'm just not sure how to respond
to this line of thought without getting personal (and Eric and I got
personal the last time this topic came up - I'm just not a very sympathetic
soul sometimes...).
Delete or read on at your peril. Sorry.
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Eric Roberts
ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:
I am sure you also make a lot more than I do (combined household that
is...especially if your wife has an MBA...mine is going for her CAN
certificate) Sean ;-)
Charlie clearly reads better than you do - my wife does not work; I am the
sole breadwinner. My wife hasn't worked in over 11 years (because I asked
her to quit the job she hated - no one should do a job they don't enjoy).
Do I make more than you? Almost certainly, I'm afraid. Over the years I've
invested in my career, paying out of my own pocket to take training courses
and go to conferences, as well as dedicating enough of my personal, non-work
time to learn new technologies and improve my marketability. I expect I'm
also waaa older than you and just have more experience. I started in IT
in about '82 while I was in college and I've been doing full-time IT for
about 25 years now.
I love technology. I've always loved technology. It's been my passion since
I was a kid. I started with programmable calculators, then a correspondence
course in Algol 60 (at my school - seriously!). At university I learned
Basic, then Pascal, then about a dozen other languages. A friend gave me a
job doing C programming after college. I pushed hard to work with C++ ('92)
and then Java ('97). Recently I've pushed myself to learn a new language
every year on my own time (Groovy '08, Scala '09, Clojure '10). Some of
those I've been lucky enough to use at work as well. I buy a lot of books to
improve my skills - they're tax deductible BTW.
Every CF developer should buy and read Seven Languages in Seven Weeks (and
do the homework!). My copy is just out of reach right now but it's close by.
It's an investment in yourself. Learn Ruby, Io, Prolog, Scala, Clojure,
Erlang, Haskell and apply them to your CFML programming.
Anyone you look up to as an expert got there through hard work and
self-investment. There's no magic. It's about hard work and priorities. You
choose whether to improve yourself and what you'll achieve. CFML has been
very good to many of us here - it's enabled us to make a living doing
something we might never have thought was possible. But it shouldn't all be
about CFML - don't expect CFML, or ColdFusion, or Adobe / Macromedia /
Allaire to hand you your career on a platter... you have to invest too.
Hmm, that sounds a bit like a sermon. Sorry, I warned you :) If you
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Builder sucks, doesn't even run WTF !SESSION Thu Jan 27 09:37:26 EST 2011 -- !ENTRY org.eclipse.equinox.launcher 4 0 2011-01-27 09:37:26.237 !MESSAGE Exception launching the Eclipse Platform: !STACK java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.eclipse.core.runtime.adaptor.EclipseStarter at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:202) at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method) at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:190) at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:307) at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:248) at org.eclipse.equinox.launcher.Main.invokeFramework(Main.java:556) at org.eclipse.equinox.launcher.Main.basicRun(Main.java:514) at org.eclipse.equinox.launcher.Main.run(Main.java:1311) ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341518 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
You're right man. Builder doesn't run anywhere. Seriously. All of us using it are just pretending and are manipulating code with the raw power of our big heads. Seriously though - have you checked to see you are running the latest version? Have you tried tech support? On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Casey Dougall ca...@uberwebsitesolutions.com wrote: Builder sucks, doesn't even run WTF !SESSION Thu Jan 27 09:37:26 EST 2011 -- !ENTRY org.eclipse.equinox.launcher 4 0 2011-01-27 09:37:26.237 !MESSAGE Exception launching the Eclipse Platform: !STACK java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.eclipse.core.runtime.adaptor.EclipseStarter ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341519 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
You're right man. Builder doesn't run anywhere. Seriously. All of us using it are just pretending and are manipulating code with the raw power of our big heads. There's a hands-free typing joke in there somewhere. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341520 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Seriously. All of us using it are just pretending and are manipulating code with the raw power of our big heads. Pffft. Real coders write code by rubbing two sticks of ram together. G! On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: You're right man. Builder doesn't run anywhere. Seriously. All of us using it are just pretending and are manipulating code with the raw power of our big heads. Seriously though - have you checked to see you are running the latest version? Have you tried tech support? On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Casey Dougall ca...@uberwebsitesolutions.com wrote: Builder sucks, doesn't even run WTF !SESSION Thu Jan 27 09:37:26 EST 2011 -- !ENTRY org.eclipse.equinox.launcher 4 0 2011-01-27 09:37:26.237 !MESSAGE Exception launching the Eclipse Platform: !STACK java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.eclipse.core.runtime.adaptor.EclipseStarter ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341522 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Ok... It was there. I applied for it in September, then again in December. Both times on the final screen it stated that It may take up to two weeks to process your request. You will be notified by email of your qualification status. I was never notified either time about my qualification status. When I did it in December it also stated ColdFusion Builder will only be approved for students who are taking courses in ColdFusion. I don't see that notice there anymore. I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! Steve -Original Message- From: Scott Brady [mailto:dsbr...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:07 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Where are you finding this info? The FAQ ( http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/cfbuilder/faq/ ) only says you need to be a current student (and that you aren't allowed to use it for production purposes, which does limit its usefulness for people on this list). Scott On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:12 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) sd1...@att.com wrote: One note on the student edition of CFBuilder, it is the only one that *requires* that you will be taking a course in ColdFusion at the college to get the free version. I applied for it a couple of times before I noticed that. Steve -- - Scott Brady http://www.scottbrady.net/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341526 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 9:28 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) sd1...@att.com wrote: I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! There are multiple places on Adobe.com that use PHP. While I'd rather it be 100% CF, there are times where code is already written or the available resources only knows PHP. Shoot - would you want Adobe.com to be 100% Flash? I wouldn't. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341527 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! Adobe is a big company, and they presumably contract with people for development, or buy off-the-shelf software. So it shouldn't be that surprising to see a mishmash of technologies on their web properties. Is it worth their time or money to rewrite something that's working, just for marketing purposes? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341528 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Well Flash isn't an Adobe competitor so I'm not sure that's a good analogy. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 9:28 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) sd1...@att.com wrote: I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! There are multiple places on Adobe.com that use PHP. While I'd rather it be 100% CF, there are times where code is already written or the available resources only knows PHP. Shoot - would you want Adobe.com to be 100% Flash? I wouldn't. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341529 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Sorry my failed attempt at humor. I just thought it was funny. -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:rcam...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:41 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? There are multiple places on Adobe.com that use PHP. While I'd rather it be 100% CF, there are times where code is already written or the available resources only knows PHP. Shoot - would you want Adobe.com to be 100% Flash? I wouldn't. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341531 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Its funny, I have never heard a designer complain about the cost of PhotoShop, nor a Flash Developer complain about the cost of Flash. Hell, I know a few .NET developers and I have never heard them bitch about the cost of Visual Studio. Actually, I have never heard people bitch about the price of software more than they bitch about the price od ColdFusion and, more recently, ColdFusion Builder. Both of which, in my opinion, are tremendous values when you look at what you can do with them. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Eric Roberts ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote: Yeah...wife...and an ex-wife, 2 kids (one lives with us, other with ex) plus 3 step kids (one lives with us)...plus wife is going to school and the step daughter that lives with us also has a daughter and is not employed so I am the sole breadwinner for the household...so yeah...300 is a shitload of money to me. Eric -Original Message- From: Casey Dougall [mailto:ca...@uberwebsitesolutions.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 09:46 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Eric Roberts ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote: I think we need to move where you guys live...if you can be so flippant about $300, pay must be pretty awesome there... What I wish they would do is offer a version without flash for less. I don't ever do flash, so bundling it isn't much of a perk to me. Eric You mean like single and no girlfriend or kids? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341532 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Very logical. However corporate optics are rarely logical. It's basically the same idea as having a car salesmen at Chevy driving a Chevy. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! Adobe is a big company, and they presumably contract with people for development, or buy off-the-shelf software. So it shouldn't be that surprising to see a mishmash of technologies on their web properties. Is it worth their time or money to rewrite something that's working, just for marketing purposes? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341534 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I seem to remember that Adobe sells software to write code in php as well. On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:15 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Very logical. However corporate optics are rarely logical. It's basically the same idea as having a car salesmen at Chevy driving a Chevy. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! Adobe is a big company, and they presumably contract with people for development, or buy off-the-shelf software. So it shouldn't be that surprising to see a mishmash of technologies on their web properties. Is it worth their time or money to rewrite something that's working, just for marketing purposes? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341535 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Do they? I thought they sold CFBuilder and Dreamweaver. I didn't know they made a product targeted to PHP. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Scott Slone ssl...@rubbergumball.netwrote: I seem to remember that Adobe sells software to write code in php as well. On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:15 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Very logical. However corporate optics are rarely logical. It's basically the same idea as having a car salesmen at Chevy driving a Chevy. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! Adobe is a big company, and they presumably contract with people for development, or buy off-the-shelf software. So it shouldn't be that surprising to see a mishmash of technologies on their web properties. Is it worth their time or money to rewrite something that's working, just for marketing purposes? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341536 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I'm pretty sure DreamWeave writes php and gosh, HTML. I think there are lots of things to have twisted-knickers about these days, but this isn't one of them. Peace. On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:25 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Do they? I thought they sold CFBuilder and Dreamweaver. I didn't know they made a product targeted to PHP. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Scott Slone ssl...@rubbergumball.netwrote: I seem to remember that Adobe sells software to write code in php as well. On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:15 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Very logical. However corporate optics are rarely logical. It's basically the same idea as having a car salesmen at Chevy driving a Chevy. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! Adobe is a big company, and they presumably contract with people for development, or buy off-the-shelf software. So it shouldn't be that surprising to see a mishmash of technologies on their web properties. Is it worth their time or money to rewrite something that's working, just for marketing purposes? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341537 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Correct. However it isn't a product designed FOR php. And I don't have twisted knickers about it mate. If you want to defend the merits of using PHP on a site selling CF go ahead. Optically it's a poor choice, regardless of how many logical or financial reasons there are for it. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Scott Slone ssl...@rubbergumball.netwrote: I'm pretty sure DreamWeave writes php and gosh, HTML. I think there are lots of things to have twisted-knickers about these days, but this isn't one of them. Peace. On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:25 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Do they? I thought they sold CFBuilder and Dreamweaver. I didn't know they made a product targeted to PHP. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Scott Slone ssl...@rubbergumball.net wrote: I seem to remember that Adobe sells software to write code in php as well. On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:15 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Very logical. However corporate optics are rarely logical. It's basically the same idea as having a car salesmen at Chevy driving a Chevy. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! Adobe is a big company, and they presumably contract with people for development, or buy off-the-shelf software. So it shouldn't be that surprising to see a mishmash of technologies on their web properties. Is it worth their time or money to rewrite something that's working, just for marketing purposes? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341539 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Very logical. However corporate optics are rarely logical. It's basically the same idea as having a car salesmen at Chevy driving a Chevy. What are corporate optics? What about car dealerships that sell multiple brands? How should they proceed? What happens when one car company buys another? Do all the employees have to buy new cars? Anyway, I guess Adobe can just pay to rewrite all this software using the proceeds they get from reducing the price of CFB. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341540 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Well, this sure was a fun thread to scan through (ha!) It's funny how adamant people can be about defending their position. Well, here's my two cents, for what it is worth. I've used both CFBuilder and CFEclipse, and I personally decided not to put the money out for a copy of CFBuilder at this time, because *for what I do* and how I write my code, I didn't feel it added enough value to warrant the cost *at this time*. I've seen some previews of v2 and I almost certainly will buy it when that version comes out (well, maybe after the first updateI usually avoid x.0 releases). I don't mind holding onto my cash and waiting for that release when it comes, versus buying now and then having to pay for an upgrade. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've passed on a v1 release and waited for the v2 with more bugs worked out and more features included. It's no different than any other software decision I make in terms of cost-value to melike when I decided years ago that CF Studio was worth the price they charged ($250 I believe - which I thought was highway robbery...and then used that software for years and years!) CFEclipse for now does what I need, they've continued to improve it (the cfscript color coding for instance is definitely better than shown in that comparison PDF...and CFB is hardly perfect in this respect either). A lot of the features that CFB touts (like introspection or the SQL editor) don't tend to work for me the way my projects are set up, or particularly when I'm using Coldspring for everything. And many of the extensions I tried didn't work since they only work with tags (and I code pretty extensively in script). Someone else however might try it and find they can use these features extensively and thus the product would absolutely be worth the price. Just because the price is too much for me and how I code doesn't mean it isn't totally worth it for someone else, or that the next version won't be worth every penny to even more of us. Complaining about the price isn't likely to make Adobe change it, so if you don't like it, vote with your pocket book. But I don't think it's a decision someone else can make for you...you have to take the time to *really* evaluate the product and whether it truly helps with your productivity. --- Mary Jo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341542 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
What are corporate optics? Seriously? What about car dealerships that sell multiple brands? How should they proceed? Same applies. Drive one of our brands. Most sales people drive company owned vehicles. What happens when one car company buys another? Do all the employees have to buy new cars? See above. Not an issues. Did Adobe buy PHP? If not how does this apply? Anyway, I guess Adobe can just pay to rewrite all this software using the proceeds they get from reducing the price of CFB. I guess. I'm not sure what the means. I'm not sure why you're trying to be obtuse here Dave. You seriously (read: SERIOUSLY) cannot see the benefit of Adobe not using PHP on a page about ColdFusion? You don't see how that can give CF competitors ammo? Well how good can CF really be if Adobe doesn't even use it on pages about CF? Adobe has enough issues with the industry taking CF seriously, why fuel the fires? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341543 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Here's my contribution to the issue. First off CF Builder is very good. I've been using CFEclipse since it first started, mainly as a plugin with MyEclipse which has some very nice add ons and much more detailed server controls than CFBuilder. One thing to note is that CFBuilder is built around Aptana Studio. I have noticed is that the combination of CFEclipse and Aptana gives you most of the advantages that CFBuilder has. If you want RDS, you can still integrate the CF8 Eclipse plugin. That said I've also started using CFBuilder more. However I do have some concerns. As I noted CFBuilder is based on Aptana Studio. With the recent announcement that Aptana has been acquired by Appcelerator, how is this going to affect CFBuilder? Cost is another factor. How about this suggestion, instead of a one time cost how about following what MyEclipse and other Eclipse based applications are doing. Instead of a one time fee, MyEclipse charges an annual fee from around $30 to $160 per year, depending on the feature set. I think that most independent developers can handle smaller chunks of cash on an annual basis rather than a substantial up front amount. regards, larry ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341544 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: That said I've also started using CFBuilder more. However I do have some concerns. As I noted CFBuilder is based on Aptana Studio. With the recent announcement that Aptana has been acquired by Appcelerator, how is this going to affect CFBuilder? I do not speak for Adam, but I believe he publicly tweeted that it would have no impact. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341545 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Here we go: http://twitter.com/#!/adrocknaphobia/status/2757809574144 The @Aptana acquisition shouldn't have any effect on #ColdFusion Builder On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: That said I've also started using CFBuilder more. However I do have some concerns. As I noted CFBuilder is based on Aptana Studio. With the recent announcement that Aptana has been acquired by Appcelerator, how is this going to affect CFBuilder? I do not speak for Adam, but I believe he publicly tweeted that it would have no impact. -- === Raymond Camden, ColdFusion Jedi Master Email : r...@camdenfamily.com Blog : www.coldfusionjedi.com AOL IM : cfjedimaster Keep up to date with Android news: http://www.androidgato ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341546 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
As far as Aptana being acquired by Appcelerator, the day the announcement came out Adam did tweet that this has no effect on CFBuilder. Also, Appcelerator is a great company. Ever use Titanium to do mobile apps? Really nice. So, either Adobe already has the deal worked with Appcelerator or CFBuilder has progress enough to not need Aptana under the hood. I do not know which. Wil Genovese Sr. Web Application Developer/ Systems Administrator Wil Genovese Consulting wilg...@trunkful.com www.trunkful.com On Jan 27, 2011, at 11:04 AM, Larry Lyons wrote: However I do have some concerns. As I noted CFBuilder is based on Aptana Studio. With the recent announcement that Aptana has been acquired by Appcelerator, how is this going to affect CFBuilder? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341547 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
What are corporate optics? Seriously? Yeah, I'm not familiar with that phrase. I'm just a simple developer. Anyway, I guess Adobe can just pay to rewrite all this software using the proceeds they get from reducing the price of CFB. I guess. I'm not sure what the means. The bulk of this thread is about how CFB is too expensive. And here you are, telling Adobe they should spend more money replacing things that function adequately with new things, just for marketing. They're not going to do that anyway, but it's a pretty silly suggestion. I'm not sure why you're trying to be obtuse here Dave. You seriously (read: SERIOUSLY) cannot see the benefit of Adobe not using PHP on a page about ColdFusion? You don't see how that can give CF competitors ammo? Well how good can CF really be if Adobe doesn't even use it on pages about CF? Adobe has enough issues with the industry taking CF seriously, why fuel the fires? Believe it or not, Adobe has a lot of things that are probably more important to them than giving CF competitors ammo. I've never - NEVER - heard from a prospective client that Adobe doesn't use it exclusively on their many, many web properties. The only place I've heard that is here, on this list, where everyone knows best how to run Adobe. Adobe has two different CMS products, Day Software and Alfresco (which they license as part of the LiveCycle product suite). Should they replace everything with one of those instead? Do you think that companies evaluating those products care whether they're used for all of Adobe's web sites? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341548 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Guys... This was just something funny I noticed... It happens all of the time when you have to get a project out and the only developer available doesn't know your preferred language. Maybe it was a new guy, maybe it was a designer who just used graphical tools (Dreamweaver) to do the site and they picked the wrong server technology. It doesn't really matter, it was just a funny aside. Let's not argue about stuff that really doesn't matter. :) Can't we all just be friends and colleagues again? Steve ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341550 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
just for marketing. Ah yeah. Just. I mean hey, marketing isn't really that important to a company right? Companies spend billions on marketing just because it's fun. And having consistency across a brand... well that's not very important either. I get it Dave. You're in bed with Adobe and you'll find a defence for any (in)action they may make. Fair enough. I do the same thing for Everton FC. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341552 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Do they? I thought they sold CFBuilder and Dreamweaver. I didn't know they made a product targeted to PHP. I believe they pitch Dreamweaver to PHP developers - it certainly supports PHP - and they've also featured PHP as a possible back end for Flex (didn't Flex/Flash Builder have a wizard that offered PHP as an option for targeting the back end at some point?). The Adobe Labs wiki is PHP too, BTW, because there was no comparable wiki in CFML and it was cheaper to take MediaWiki and customize it than build a comparable wiki in CFML. adobe.com also has Perl, JSP and various other technologies in use on it. When I worked at Adobe, I seem to recall some product teams created their own technology showcases using Ruby on Rails or whatever their team happen to be familiar with. Whilst Adobe promote and sell CFML, the reality is that they don't have a lot of CFML programmers in house. The team I created at macromedia.com was the biggest concentration of CFML programmers in the organization - and we cross-trained from Java/C++ - and my understanding is that team is substantially smaller now than it was. I also know that the team I was on at Adobe stopped using CFML shortly after I left (the team used Java exclusively before I joined and went back to it after I left). Adobe is a huge company with dozens of teams creating web applications - it's unrealistic to expect them all to use CFML, no matter how nice that might be for our egos as CFML developers :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341553 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
You're right man. Builder doesn't run anywhere. Seriously. All of us using it are just pretending and are manipulating code with the raw power of our big heads. There's a hands-free typing joke in there somewhere. Given it was Ray's comment: Use the Force Ray. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341554 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: That said I've also started using CFBuilder more. However I do have some concerns. As I noted CFBuilder is based on Aptana Studio. With the recent announcement that Aptana has been acquired by Appcelerator, how is this going to affect CFBuilder? I do not speak for Adam, but I believe he publicly tweeted that it would have no impact. That's good to know. That was a big concern. I suspect that one of these days I'm just going to have to give in and subscribe to twitter. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341555 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
just for marketing. Ah yeah. Just. I mean hey, marketing isn't really that important to a company right? Companies spend billions on marketing just because it's fun. And having consistency across a brand... well that's not very important either. I get it Dave. You're in bed with Adobe and you'll find a defence for any (in)action they may make. Fair enough. I do the same thing for Everton FC. Yes, companies spend money on marketing. Yes, brand consistency is nice. But like anything else, marketing budgets are subject to price/performance analysis.You seem to think there's a bottomless pit of money for everything you believe is neglected. That is not the case. I don't have to be in bed with Adobe to defend their actions or to acknowledge that (a) they know their own business better than I do, and (b) rewriting everything in CF might not be the best use of their time and money. Presumably they've made the call that the marketing value they'd get would be less than the time and money they'd spend. Or perhaps the web properties in question are controlled by a different department within Adobe than the one in charge of CF. Like I said already, the ONLY place anyone's ever expressed this concern about Adobe's web sites not all using CF is here, on this list. Presumably, the people on this list don't need to be convinced of the value of CF. I'm not an Adobe stockholder, so I really don't care if they do decide to rewrite everything in CF - which I think would be a waste of time and money, and a distraction from their actual business. But if I were a manager there, it would probably be a pretty low priority for me. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341557 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
No, I don't think there's a bottomless pit of money. That's quite a leap Dave. I've said two negative things about Adobe (ever). The first is that it doesn't do enough to market CF. This is not an uncommon opinion. And the second is that it looks silly to not have your site run on the web dev technology you sell. To me this also seems like a completely reasonable statement to make. You also don't need to rewrite your whole site just to mask the use of PHP. And it doesn't require a bottomless pit of money. So I think you're painting a dramatic picture of my comments that's disingenuous. You also keep saying how you don't know Adobe's business yet you have no problem telling others that their opinions about how Adobe does business is out to lunch. So which is it? Also, how do you know this is the ONLY place that's ever noticed the Adobe isn't running on CF? Are you sure that didn't mean to say it's the only place YOU'VE seen it? Or are you really that knowledgeable that you have the intertubes indexed? On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: just for marketing. Ah yeah. Just. I mean hey, marketing isn't really that important to a company right? Companies spend billions on marketing just because it's fun. And having consistency across a brand... well that's not very important either. I get it Dave. You're in bed with Adobe and you'll find a defence for any (in)action they may make. Fair enough. I do the same thing for Everton FC. Yes, companies spend money on marketing. Yes, brand consistency is nice. But like anything else, marketing budgets are subject to price/performance analysis.You seem to think there's a bottomless pit of money for everything you believe is neglected. That is not the case. I don't have to be in bed with Adobe to defend their actions or to acknowledge that (a) they know their own business better than I do, and (b) rewriting everything in CF might not be the best use of their time and money. Presumably they've made the call that the marketing value they'd get would be less than the time and money they'd spend. Or perhaps the web properties in question are controlled by a different department within Adobe than the one in charge of CF. Like I said already, the ONLY place anyone's ever expressed this concern about Adobe's web sites not all using CF is here, on this list. Presumably, the people on this list don't need to be convinced of the value of CF. I'm not an Adobe stockholder, so I really don't care if they do decide to rewrite everything in CF - which I think would be a waste of time and money, and a distraction from their actual business. But if I were a manager there, it would probably be a pretty low priority for me. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341568 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Also, how do you know this is the ONLY place that's ever noticed the Adobe isn't running on CF? I'm with Dave on this: the only people who care that adobe.com has non-CF technology in use are CFers. And it's part of the insecurity / victim mentality that I've said on several occasions CFers need to shake off and stop being ashamed that they use CF... :( -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341589 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I would add that a company of that size consumes smaller companies each year no way they are going to take the time to rebuild everything they aquire in a pet technology. My company has 14-15 people total, but we use a bunch of stuff that's non-CF (word press blogs, email, WebMin, PHPMyadmin, nagios, docWikietc). FYI - that close unrelated projects tip... nice. I did not know that. Saves me some time that one - thanks Sean. -mark Mark A. Kruger, MCSE, CFG (402) 408-3733 ext 105 Skype: markakruger www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:41 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Also, how do you know this is the ONLY place that's ever noticed the Adobe isn't running on CF? I'm with Dave on this: the only people who care that adobe.com has non-CF technology in use are CFers. And it's part of the insecurity / victim mentality that I've said on several occasions CFers need to shake off and stop being ashamed that they use CF... :( -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341590 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
CF is a pet technology? On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.comwrote: I would add that a company of that size consumes smaller companies each year no way they are going to take the time to rebuild everything they aquire in a pet technology. My company has 14-15 people total, but we use a bunch of stuff that's non-CF (word press blogs, email, WebMin, PHPMyadmin, nagios, docWikietc). FYI - that close unrelated projects tip... nice. I did not know that. Saves me some time that one - thanks Sean. -mark Mark A. Kruger, MCSE, CFG (402) 408-3733 ext 105 Skype: markakruger www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:41 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Also, how do you know this is the ONLY place that's ever noticed the Adobe isn't running on CF? I'm with Dave on this: the only people who care that adobe.com has non-CF technology in use are CFers. And it's part of the insecurity / victim mentality that I've said on several occasions CFers need to shake off and stop being ashamed that they use CF... :( -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341591 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Yeah, I think it's the fact that 98% of our non-CF peers and an equal amount of pseudo knowledgeable clients see the language we chose as a joke that creates the insecurity. CF is New Zealand while everything else seems to be Australia. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote: Also, how do you know this is the ONLY place that's ever noticed the Adobe isn't running on CF? I'm with Dave on this: the only people who care that adobe.com has non-CF technology in use are CFers. And it's part of the insecurity / victim mentality that I've said on several occasions CFers need to shake off and stop being ashamed that they use CF... :( -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341593 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
No, I don't think there's a bottomless pit of money. That's quite a leap Dave. I've said two negative things about Adobe (ever). The first is that it doesn't do enough to market CF. This is not an uncommon opinion. And the second is that it looks silly to not have your site run on the web dev technology you sell. To me this also seems like a completely reasonable statement to make. You also don't need to rewrite your whole site just to mask the use of PHP. And it doesn't require a bottomless pit of money. So I think you're painting a dramatic picture of my comments that's disingenuous. It's neither dramatic nor disingenuous. You think it's obvious that the marketing value of rewriting dozens or more web applications would outweigh the cost. I disagree. Apparently, so does whoever makes these decisions at Adobe. You also keep saying how you don't know Adobe's business yet you have no problem telling others that their opinions about how Adobe does business is out to lunch. So which is it? I think you should read what I wrote more carefully. You're saying that they should do something other than they're doing. You're the one telling them how to run their business. I'm not. I assume that they know their business better than you or I do. If it were my business, I'd probably do the same thing, but that's really irrelevant. Also, how do you know this is the ONLY place that's ever noticed the Adobe isn't running on CF? Are you sure that didn't mean to say it's the only place YOU'VE seen it? Or are you really that knowledgeable that you have the intertubes indexed? I think you should safely assume that whenever anyone talks about absolutes, they're speaking about their own experiences. If I say that the sun comes up every day, I'm speaking about my experience. That said, I do spend quite a bit of time talking to other people about CF, and participating in other developer communities. I'm on all sorts of mailing lists. I've been working with CF for more than ten years. I've presented CF solutions for conferences, etc. I teach a lot of classes, for CF and other things, and I tell my students about CF whether it's a CF class or not. So I think I probably have a decent amount of exposure to the rest of the world. And this is the only place where it comes up. I also do a lot of work for Google, who does in fact have the intertubes indexed. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341594 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I'm not telling Adobe how to run their business. I'm telling other CF devs my opinion on two specific topics as they relate to business. You make me sound like I'm at the gates with a pitchfork and torch. I never said they should rewrite any applications. You can mask the use of php (or cf or any other language) without a whole lot of effort or expense, in the grand scheme of things. You can still use PHP or Ruby or Klingon, you just don't need to advertise it with .php at the end of the url. That's optics. And it's important. An argument could also be made that if one spent the last 10 years of ones life fully immersed in the CF community, that one might actually have a fairly insular view of CF. One that would seem to argue against having a decent amount of exposure to the rest of the world. So I guess we'll agree to disagree here. My only horse in this race is CF and it's lack luster ascendancy. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: No, I don't think there's a bottomless pit of money. That's quite a leap Dave. I've said two negative things about Adobe (ever). The first is that it doesn't do enough to market CF. This is not an uncommon opinion. And the second is that it looks silly to not have your site run on the web dev technology you sell. To me this also seems like a completely reasonable statement to make. You also don't need to rewrite your whole site just to mask the use of PHP. And it doesn't require a bottomless pit of money. So I think you're painting a dramatic picture of my comments that's disingenuous. It's neither dramatic nor disingenuous. You think it's obvious that the marketing value of rewriting dozens or more web applications would outweigh the cost. I disagree. Apparently, so does whoever makes these decisions at Adobe. You also keep saying how you don't know Adobe's business yet you have no problem telling others that their opinions about how Adobe does business is out to lunch. So which is it? I think you should read what I wrote more carefully. You're saying that they should do something other than they're doing. You're the one telling them how to run their business. I'm not. I assume that they know their business better than you or I do. If it were my business, I'd probably do the same thing, but that's really irrelevant. Also, how do you know this is the ONLY place that's ever noticed the Adobe isn't running on CF? Are you sure that didn't mean to say it's the only place YOU'VE seen it? Or are you really that knowledgeable that you have the intertubes indexed? I think you should safely assume that whenever anyone talks about absolutes, they're speaking about their own experiences. If I say that the sun comes up every day, I'm speaking about my experience. That said, I do spend quite a bit of time talking to other people about CF, and participating in other developer communities. I'm on all sorts of mailing lists. I've been working with CF for more than ten years. I've presented CF solutions for conferences, etc. I teach a lot of classes, for CF and other things, and I tell my students about CF whether it's a CF class or not. So I think I probably have a decent amount of exposure to the rest of the world. And this is the only place where it comes up. I also do a lot of work for Google, who does in fact have the intertubes indexed. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341599 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I'm not telling Adobe how to run their business. I'm telling other CF devs my opinion on two specific topics as they relate to business. You make me sound like I'm at the gates with a pitchfork and torch. You're splitting some mighty fine hairs there. Clearly you have an opinion on how Adobe should do things. I never said they should rewrite any applications. You can mask the use of php (or cf or any other language) without a whole lot of effort or expense, in the grand scheme of things. You can still use PHP or Ruby or Klingon, you just don't need to advertise it with .php at the end of the url. That's optics. And it's important. It's important ... to you. But it's not as easy as you make it out to be. Adobe uses third parties to develop solutions, and they buy third-party products and deploy them. I'm guessing they pay third parties for ongoing support of things like Adobe Forums. They have lots of different web properties, managed by different departments. And again, it's not clear that there'd be any real benefit to doing this. But it's always easy to tell other people what they need to do, I guess. An argument could also be made that if one spent the last 10 years of ones life fully immersed in the CF community, that one might actually have a fairly insular view of CF. One that would seem to argue against having a decent amount of exposure to the rest of the world. I guess that argument could be made, but perhaps you didn't read what I wrote - I work with a lot of other technologies. I've worked with CF for over ten years, but I also work with Java, ASP.NET, Google Enterprise technologies, and a bunch of other things - and have for a long time. And if you go on mailing lists for those other products, you don't find developers talking about what's used on what web sites, and how that reflects on anything meaningful. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341601 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
*shrugs* I see you want the last word. And that's ok. Like I said last time we'll have to agree to disagree. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I'm not telling Adobe how to run their business. I'm telling other CF devs my opinion on two specific topics as they relate to business. You make me sound like I'm at the gates with a pitchfork and torch. You're splitting some mighty fine hairs there. Clearly you have an opinion on how Adobe should do things. I never said they should rewrite any applications. You can mask the use of php (or cf or any other language) without a whole lot of effort or expense, in the grand scheme of things. You can still use PHP or Ruby or Klingon, you just don't need to advertise it with .php at the end of the url. That's optics. And it's important. It's important ... to you. But it's not as easy as you make it out to be. Adobe uses third parties to develop solutions, and they buy third-party products and deploy them. I'm guessing they pay third parties for ongoing support of things like Adobe Forums. They have lots of different web properties, managed by different departments. And again, it's not clear that there'd be any real benefit to doing this. But it's always easy to tell other people what they need to do, I guess. An argument could also be made that if one spent the last 10 years of ones life fully immersed in the CF community, that one might actually have a fairly insular view of CF. One that would seem to argue against having a decent amount of exposure to the rest of the world. I guess that argument could be made, but perhaps you didn't read what I wrote - I work with a lot of other technologies. I've worked with CF for over ten years, but I also work with Java, ASP.NET, Google Enterprise technologies, and a bunch of other things - and have for a long time. And if you go on mailing lists for those other products, you don't find developers talking about what's used on what web sites, and how that reflects on anything meaningful. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341602 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Hey...if I am teaching myself, does that count? hehehehe -Original Message- From: DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) [mailto:sd1...@att.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 09:28 To: cf-talk Subject: RE: why is cf_builder so expensive? Ok... It was there. I applied for it in September, then again in December. Both times on the final screen it stated that It may take up to two weeks to process your request. You will be notified by email of your qualification status. I was never notified either time about my qualification status. When I did it in December it also stated ColdFusion Builder will only be approved for students who are taking courses in ColdFusion. I don't see that notice there anymore. I also think that it is funny that the confirmation page is https://freeriatools.adobe.com/cfbuilder/thankyou.php;. PHP for stuff dealing with ColdFusion?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! Steve -Original Message- From: Scott Brady [mailto:dsbr...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:07 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Where are you finding this info? The FAQ ( http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/cfbuilder/faq/ ) only says you need to be a current student (and that you aren't allowed to use it for production purposes, which does limit its usefulness for people on this list). Scott On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:12 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) sd1...@att.com wrote: One note on the student edition of CFBuilder, it is the only one that *requires* that you will be taking a course in ColdFusion at the college to get the free version. I applied for it a couple of times before I noticed that. Steve -- - Scott Brady http://www.scottbrady.net/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341603 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: And if you go on mailing lists for those other products, you don't find developers talking about what's used on what web sites, and how that reflects on anything meaningful. This isn't actually true at all, Dave. To give one high profile example, take Hotmail. Microsoft got a huge amount of shit for the fact that Hotmail ran on Linux (or BSD? I think BSD) with Apache. Sure, they bought Hotmail and that was the primary reason. But people kept saying oh, Windows and IIS can't handle the load so they have to stick with BSD. There were plenty of tech articles about whether Microsoft could actually run Hotmail on Windows, how expensive it would be, etc. Finally, MS eventually moved it over but they had to put significant time and energy into the project. They even announced that they had moved it to Windows only to have to retract that statement a couple days later, admitting that some of the bits still ran on BSD. I seem to recall that MS totally fucked up Hotmail in the move as well but that could have been some of their other major screw ups. Eating your own dogfood is still an important concept in the tech world and I think you sell it short. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341604 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I disagree with the suggestion that the technologies major companies decide to use is unimportant to developers. I am active in the Microsoft developer and database communities and I can say with certainty that Microsoft makes a big deal about how they use their own technologies to power their company. The phrase we eat our own dog food is used all the time in Microsoft presentations. Scott Guthrie seems to mention this in every talk he gives. I have heard we use the technology ourselves used as a selling point for SQL Server 2008, Exchange 2010, IIS 7, Visual Studio 2010, WPF, Silverlight, SQL Azure, and other well known technologies. In fact, for every Microsoft technology I can think of that is targeted at IT people, one of the main selling points is we use this product ourselves so we are motivated to make it better by our own internal IT staff. When Microsoft does not use one of their own promoted in-house technologies for something, such as not using WPF for MS Office 2010, the criticism is loud and widespread. The Microsoft developer community erupted with criticism a couple months ago when Bob Muglia, who was one of the top guys at MS until recently, publicly expressed Microsoft's commitment for HTML 5, a non-Microsoft technology and a direct competitor to Microsoft's in-house technologies. If you don't typically see these types of issues discussed with tech companies other than Adobe, it is because publicly using competing products normally should not happen. When Steve Jobs appears on stage, he has an iPod in his pocket, a MacBook on the podium, and a Keynote presentation on the big screen. If he showed up with a Zune, a computer running Windows 7, and a PowerPoint presentation, it would absolutely be a popular topic of conversation. The fact that Microsoft uses their own technologies is a big deal to me. Upgrading a mission critical database is always risky. The fact that Microsoft used SQL Server 2008 to power their own Web sites and applications, even while the product was still under development, gave me added confidence that SQL Server 2008 was stable enough to use right after it was released for sale. One of the reasons a Microsoft manager said that Silverlight/WPF advanced as fast as it did was because Visual Studio 2010 was built on the Windows Presentation Foundation framework, and feedback/pressure from their own VS2010 development team was used to rapidly advance Silverlight to the v4 version. Based on my knowledge of the inner workings of certain large organizations, there is typically huge pressure on managers to not be seen using competing products. The CEO of Coca-Cola will never be seen enjoying a Pepsi. Steve Balmer will never be seen talking on an iPhone. If someone handed him one he would smash it on the ground as quickly and as forcefully as he could. Adobe appears to lack the same internal pressure and competitive spirit that exists in other successful large corporations. Adobe has an excuse in that they acquired most of their major development products, but that excuse cannot be used forever. -Mike Chabot http://www.linkedin.com/in/chabot http://www.linkedin.com/in/chabot On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: if you go on mailing lists for those other products, you don't find developers talking about what's used on what web sites, and how that reflects on anything meaningful. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341605 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
This isn't actually true at all, Dave. To give one high profile example, take Hotmail. Microsoft got a huge amount of shit for the fact that Hotmail ran on Linux (or BSD? I think BSD) with Apache. Sure, they bought Hotmail and that was the primary reason. But people kept saying oh, Windows and IIS can't handle the load so they have to stick with BSD. There were plenty of tech articles about whether Microsoft could actually run Hotmail on Windows, how expensive it would be, etc. Finally, MS eventually moved it over but they had to put significant time and energy into the project. They even announced that they had moved it to Windows only to have to retract that statement a couple days later, admitting that some of the bits still ran on BSD. I seem to recall that MS totally fucked up Hotmail in the move as well but that could have been some of their other major screw ups. Microsoft acquired Hotmail in 1997. They migrated it to Windows in 2000/2001. Apparently, they didn't feel the need to do this very quickly. And I think there's a significant difference. At the time, there was a real, open question about whether Windows could fill this niche. Current versions really couldn't. NT 4 and IIS 3 and 4 weren't capable of doing this. But no one doubts that, say, the free RIA tools site could be written in CF. Large parts of the main Adobe site are, in fact, written in CF. Eating your own dogfood is still an important concept in the tech world and I think you sell it short. Adobe has a lot of different dog food, though. They have CF, LiveCycle, Day Software, and Contribute/Dreamweaver. Which one of those should they pick? As a tools vendor, they make products that explicitly are designed to interact with Java, ASP.NET and PHP: Dreamweaver, Flash Builder, LiveCycle Workbench. The Flex team probably has more customers using PHP than CF. The Flash team certainly does. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341606 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I disagree with the suggestion that the technologies major companies decide to use is unimportant to developers. I am active in the Microsoft developer and database communities and I can say with certainty that Microsoft makes a big deal about how they use their own technologies to power their company. Here's a handy Google search: filetype:swf site:microsoft.com estimated results: 11,700 I wonder why that's not all Silverlight? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341607 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I hope this is funny for you guys because it was funny for me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwzklHZqkbE Ballmer seems like a nice guy. It wasn't an iPhone, so he didn't smash it ;-) On 1/27/2011 10:14 PM, Mike Chabot wrote: products. The CEO of Coca-Cola will never be seen enjoying a Pepsi. Steve Balmer will never be seen talking on an iPhone. If someone handed him one he would smash it on the ground as quickly and as forcefully as he could. Adobe appears to lack the same internal pressure and competitive spirit that ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341609 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
First I would like to say that I am the type of person that relies on a good product to do my work with, CFBuilder is not a great product and it has huge potential. Would I say it is worth the price tag, no I would not and others might find that the tool is giving them the productivity that they require/need. Personally I find that the features that would make me more productive, have the most bugs that well let's say are not fixed and look like might not being fixed in the next release, I am not holding my breath, because I actually know that these bugs are actually ColdFusion related and the not the tool, and we all know that ColdFusion X is at least 3 years away. But this is me, others might find that the tool will give them the productivity that warrants the price tag. I actually find that the most productivity comes from 3rd party tools like subversive, mylyn and Task Pro. But at the end of the day as someone else said, it is going to boil down to whether it is going to make you more productive than what you might already currently use, and I will go out on a limb and say that by Version 3 it will be a tool that will come highly recommended and used within the community. Just not sure most of us can actually wait that long :-) Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341320 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I am surprised that nobody has really tried to say why cf builder is so good likes it features. in other words, nobody has really provided a good reason as to why should I invest in it. I think this is because this topic has been discussed to death on mailing lists, forums, blogs, conferences, user groups, etc. ColdFusion Builder is not a new product anymore and the benefits are well documented. Back when CF Builder first came out it was a hugely popular topic of conversation. Most developers decided to not switch to CF Builder for a variety of reasons: price, bugs, hassle of upgrading, newness, learning curve, etc. HomeSite, Eclipse, and Dreamweaver are still popular alternatives. I would guess that ColdFusion Builder is in 4th place in terms of popularity. -Mike Chabot ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341323 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I'll also add that you will not hear from people when a product works. You _will_ hear when it doesn't work. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Michael Firth mfsqlser...@gmail.com wrote: Based on the feedback I am getting Builder seems to be very stable contrary to a few web posts I have read. I think a lot of people tried the public beta, had problems, and never went back after the public 1.0 release. Their loss, IMO. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341327 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 2:21 AM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.au wrote: Personally I find that the features that would make me more productive, have the most bugs that well let's say are not fixed and look like might not being fixed in the next release, I am not holding my breath, because I actually know that these bugs are actually ColdFusion related and the not the tool, and we all know that ColdFusion X is at least 3 years away. While I've not heard any firm dates, nor do I expect to, I'd like to know where you get this 'CFX is 3 years away' statement. Did Adam say this? Did anyone at Adobe say this? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341328 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
My 50 cents : I've been working with CFBuilder for about 6 months now (coming from homesite++, hard to let this one go...) and I will honestly say that it is a very good product, with some lacks or some problems (from time to time), but with great functionalities as well. It helps me to work better (it always can be better than what you know), and once used to it, it becomes your friend at work (I'm a freelance and work most of the time alone). From this point of view, I'd not say that a product that costs round 200$ (was it 300?) is 'so expensive'. If you need a working tool, be prepared to pay for it. There are other company tools (from adobe, but from other companies also) that cost a lot more, and nobody complains about it. I'll also add that you will not hear from people when a product works. You _will_ hear when it doesn't work. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfield@gmail. com wrote: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Michael Firth mfsqlserver@gmail. com wrote: Based on the feedback I am getting Builder seems to be very stable contrary to a few web posts I have read. I think a lot of people tried the public beta, had problems, and never went back after the public 1.0 release. Their loss, IMO. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341329 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: While I've not heard any firm dates, nor do I expect to, I'd like to know where you get this 'CFX is 3 years away' statement. Did Adam say this? Did anyone at Adobe say this? If I buy CFBuilder today and a new one comes out in 90 days, whats the upgrade policy? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341332 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I just finished downloading the trial and getting ready to dive in! I will save my first impressions, but I am VERY IMPRESSED that Adobe offers a 60 day trial, which is more than enough time to get to know my new buddy. I am going to be very interested to see how it builds on Eclipse and what is unique about Builder versus using just CF Eclipse. Mike On Jan 26, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Casey Dougall wrote: On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: While I've not heard any firm dates, nor do I expect to, I'd like to know where you get this 'CFX is 3 years away' statement. Did Adam say this? Did anyone at Adobe say this? If I buy CFBuilder today and a new one comes out in 90 days, whats the upgrade policy? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341333 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
It would be nice if CFBuilder came bundled with Creative Suite as homesite was. It is a good product, but I don't do enough dev work these days to warrant spending $300, DW does the job for me. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Casey Dougall ca...@uberwebsitesolutions.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote: While I've not heard any firm dates, nor do I expect to, I'd like to know where you get this 'CFX is 3 years away' statement. Did Adam say this? Did anyone at Adobe say this? If I buy CFBuilder today and a new one comes out in 90 days, whats the upgrade policy? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341334 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
One note on the student edition of CFBuilder, it is the only one that *requires* that you will be taking a course in ColdFusion at the college to get the free version. I applied for it a couple of times before I noticed that. Steve -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:04 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? snip And if your a developer the educational use is of no real benefit because if I remember that was only for college students. And anyone can go to their local community college and register for a part-time course, and then you're a college student. I suggest philosophy or symbolic logic, if you choose this path. /snip Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341336 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Be sure to check out the Extensions library at RIAForge: http://www.riaforge.org/index.cfm?event=page.categoryid=14 49 free and open source tools like var scoping and query param scanning. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Michael Firth mfsqlser...@gmail.com wrote: I just finished downloading the trial and getting ready to dive in! I will save my first impressions, but I am VERY IMPRESSED that Adobe offers a 60 day trial, which is more than enough time to get to know my new buddy. I am going to be very interested to see how it builds on Eclipse and what is unique about Builder versus using just CF Eclipse. Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341338 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Thanks for the information Steve and for providing the correct information contrary to the info provided by the CTO below. I am happy that they give you 60 days to try it out though. I was thinking the trial would only be 30 days. On Jan 26, 2011, at 9:12 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) wrote: One note on the student edition of CFBuilder, it is the only one that *requires* that you will be taking a course in ColdFusion at the college to get the free version. I applied for it a couple of times before I noticed that. Steve -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:04 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? snip And if your a developer the educational use is of no real benefit because if I remember that was only for college students. And anyone can go to their local community college and register for a part-time course, and then you're a college student. I suggest philosophy or symbolic logic, if you choose this path. /snip Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341339 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Kool. Feel like a kid in a candy store with all these goodies. The Application CFC generator and CFC Hint Checker especially look yummy. On Jan 26, 2011, at 9:25 AM, Raymond Camden wrote: Be sure to check out the Extensions library at RIAForge: http://www.riaforge.org/index.cfm?event=page.categoryid=14 49 free and open source tools like var scoping and query param scanning. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Michael Firth mfsqlser...@gmail.com wrote: I just finished downloading the trial and getting ready to dive in! I will save my first impressions, but I am VERY IMPRESSED that Adobe offers a 60 day trial, which is more than enough time to get to know my new buddy. I am going to be very interested to see how it builds on Eclipse and what is unique about Builder versus using just CF Eclipse. Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341340 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
I think we need to move where you guys live...if you can be so flippant about $300, pay must be pretty awesome there... What I wish they would do is offer a version without flash for less. I don't ever do flash, so bundling it isn't much of a perk to me. Eric -Original Message- From: Stephane Vantroyen [mailto:s...@emakina.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 06:02 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? My 50 cents : I've been working with CFBuilder for about 6 months now (coming from homesite++, hard to let this one go...) and I will honestly say that it is a very good product, with some lacks or some problems (from time to time), but with great functionalities as well. It helps me to work better (it always can be better than what you know), and once used to it, it becomes your friend at work (I'm a freelance and work most of the time alone). From this point of view, I'd not say that a product that costs round 200$ (was it 300?) is 'so expensive'. If you need a working tool, be prepared to pay for it. There are other company tools (from adobe, but from other companies also) that cost a lot more, and nobody complains about it. I'll also add that you will not hear from people when a product works. You _will_ hear when it doesn't work. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfield@gmail. com wrote: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Michael Firth mfsqlserver@gmail. com wrote: Based on the feedback I am getting Builder seems to be very stable contrary to a few web posts I have read. I think a lot of people tried the public beta, had problems, and never went back after the public 1.0 release. Their loss, IMO. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341341 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Please don't take my response as being anything against Dave. I was just making a statement about what I found out through trial and error. I have a lot of respect for Dave. He takes the time to help out many people here on the list. His varied experience with ColdFusion has made him one of the most knowledgeable people that I have seen on this list. Watts, Corefield, Forta, Arehart (and more) are all giants when it comes to CFML. I have only ever gotten to meet Mr. Forta in person, though I do hope to meet the others in the future. I just like to give back when I can by providing the little tid-bits that I come across. Steve -Original Message- From: Michael Firth [mailto:mfsqlser...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 9:29 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? Thanks for the information Steve and for providing the correct information contrary to the info provided by the CTO below. I am happy that they give you 60 days to try it out though. I was thinking the trial would only be 30 days. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341342 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Who is being flippant? It's a fact of life that some developer tools cost money. That isn't unusual, it is a fact of life. I was going to say just us developers, but I'm sure in most industries there are tools you end up having to pay for to help you get your job done. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 8:09 AM, Eric Roberts ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote: I think we need to move where you guys live...if you can be so flippant about $300, pay must be pretty awesome there... What I wish they would do is offer a version without flash for less. I don't ever do flash, so bundling it isn't much of a perk to me. Eri ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341343 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: why is cf_builder so expensive?
Having used CFEclipse extensively not to mention CF Studio/Homesite and some DW, I have to say that CF Builder is well worth the investment, so much so that it's not even close. Having FB Standard bundled is nice but not essential to making Builder worth the money. Now that I'm acclimated to Builder, I'd never go back. The incorporation of a lot of Aptana features makes it a virtual one-stop-shop for all my CF/HTML needs. The product is on a good track and I'm looking forward to the next iteration. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Eric Roberts ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote: I think we need to move where you guys live...if you can be so flippant about $300, pay must be pretty awesome there... What I wish they would do is offer a version without flash for less. I don't ever do flash, so bundling it isn't much of a perk to me. Eric -Original Message- From: Stephane Vantroyen [mailto:s...@emakina.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 06:02 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: why is cf_builder so expensive? My 50 cents : I've been working with CFBuilder for about 6 months now (coming from homesite++, hard to let this one go...) and I will honestly say that it is a very good product, with some lacks or some problems (from time to time), but with great functionalities as well. It helps me to work better (it always can be better than what you know), and once used to it, it becomes your friend at work (I'm a freelance and work most of the time alone). From this point of view, I'd not say that a product that costs round 200$ (was it 300?) is 'so expensive'. If you need a working tool, be prepared to pay for it. There are other company tools (from adobe, but from other companies also) that cost a lot more, and nobody complains about it. I'll also add that you will not hear from people when a product works. You _will_ hear when it doesn't work. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfield@gmail. com wrote: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Michael Firth mfsqlserver@gmail. com wrote: Based on the feedback I am getting Builder seems to be very stable contrary to a few web posts I have read. I think a lot of people tried the public beta, had problems, and never went back after the public 1.0 release. Their loss, IMO. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341344 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
