[Finale] finger tremolos

[John Bell]

Can anyone tell me what the French terminology is for finger tremolo  
in string instruments?


Thanks
John
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Raymond Horton]

On 17 Feb 2006, at 19:28, Raymond Horton wrote:

 Somewhere along the way, someone added three trombone and timp parts 
to the overture that are commonly played, and these are in the 
Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the latter yesterday, AAMOF.)





Michael Cook wrote:
No, the trombone parts are original Rossini. I don't have access to 
the different versions of this overture that were used for the other 
two operas, but the trombone parts certainly come from one of these 
versions.


___


Michael, please note that I purposely did not say someone ELSE added the 
trombone parts.  I said SOMEONE, specifically to leave open the 
possibility that it was the composer.  I just had the internal 
evidence:  The parts seem to be old, (before the later 19th century when 
the valve tenor trombone took over in Italy, because the first part is 
quite high, putting it sqarely in alto trombone register).  This would 
put the parts more likely in the composers pen  than a later arranger, 
if all on I had to guess were the notes themselves.  Since you have 
other evidence, that I don't I'll take your word.  (Although I recall 
seeing a score, many years ago, with the first part not so high, so that 
is another confusion.  Perhaps Rossini revised it for another 
performance with no alto trombone?)   Does the first trombone part you 
have go up to high D at the breakup strain in the middle?


RBH

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Carl Dershem]

Kim Patrick Clow wrote:

Not far removed from the accordion,but mouth harps were used for basso 
continuo sometimes.


Not far removed?  We generally seat them on the other side of the 
orchestra!  (Just through the double doors and behind the stairs, when 
possible).


cd
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] OT: Record Collectors?

[Karen]

Hi Chuck,

I'll bet you have some great stuff too!  I have a soft spot in my  
heart for the vinyl recordings...I love the way a record sounds  
clicks, scratch and all!  I still have several records in my  
possession as well :-)  I inherited my grandfather's Louis Amstrong  
records...they are some of my favorites.  Just couldn't part with  
them!  :-)


Hope you guys are finally getting some sunshine up there!

Warmly,

-K


On Feb 17, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:


Hi Karen,

I have one too - with all kinds of stuff I'd like to sell, but it's  
not organized.  No idea what it's worth, but people tell me it's  
Ebay fodder.  Besides a good jazz collection, I have many pristine  
recordings of 20th Century things I collected when we used to get  
LP's (as NARAS members) for a buck and a half apiece.  I just  
bought anything I thought might be interesting back in the days  
when I thought I'd have time to listen to a lot of new music.  I  
bet I have 500 LP's in the basement.


Chuck


On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Karen wrote:


Hi all,

I have a friend that has a pretty extensive record collection  
(yes, actual vinyl...:-)) and is looking to sell it.  Is there  
anyone on this list who is a record collector or might know  
someone who is?  My friend has everything in an Excel spreadsheet  
so it would be very easy for someone to take a look at it.  He's  
threatening to haul everything down to Amoeba Music (a used record  
store here in LA) and I'm trying to get him to have someone who  
might know more about record collecting to have a look at it  
first.  He has a lot of the original Jazz recordings; Blue Note,  
Verve etc. along with some of the original Beatles records too.   
My heart breaks thinking about them going anywhere but where  
someone would really be able to appreciate them.  It is a  
collection he has been working on for many years.  Feel free to e- 
mail me off list if you'd rather :-)


Thanks very much in advance!  Have a great weekend.

Best,

Karen

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Chuck Israels]

   On 2/17/06, Andrew Stiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: My wife coined  the term "tinkleplunk" as a measure of the degree towhich a modern Renaissance ensemble is willing to pander to a modern audience. The more percussion and other inappropriate instruments, themore lowbrow and "Renaissance Faire"ish. I can imagine any number of "tinkleplunk-ish" (nice word) panderings applied to many kinds of music, many of which I might well abhor.  Still, if any of my music is around in hundreds of years, I hope that some thoughtful person of  good judgment will think to apply 21st or 22nd Century techniques as he/she might imagine I'd like them applied, to make my music more "receivable" by contemporary ears, rather than trying to recreate a long gone atmosphere of a bygone era that is no longer applicable.I understand, this is a risky wish, but I prefer it (in my fantasy) to a "purist" approach that would be more likely to keep the deeper meaning of the music from reaching the ears of future listeners.There's a lot to consider here.  What I would not want, and do not want, is the use of a "more modern" electric bass, or probably even an amplified acoustic bass, and a rock drummer's esthetic, applied to my music, no matter how many more listeners it might get me, because that would surely ruin my intentions (and my idea of balances).  On the other hand, changes in instrumental timbre might not mess things up all that much, and I've re-orchestrated some of my own work (as Stravinsky did - not that I compare my work to his) to no big detrimental effect.  I always think it's possible to ruin Bach's music, but the architecture is so strong that really destroying its deep meaning takes a determined musical demolition force.Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com  ___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Contrabass and clefs

[John Howell]

At 3:40 PM -0500 2/17/06, Andrew Stiller wrote:

On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:17 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 16 Feb 2006 at 23:50, Andrew Stiller wrote:


(17th-c. orchestras had no 16' voice)


Is this really true as an unqualified statement? Orchestral practice
was very, very different in different places, and, of course, the
whole idea of an "orchestra" did not really quite yet exist in the
way we use it.


I would prefer to state it differently:  17th 
century orchestras did not REQUIRE a 16' voice. 
However ...


Monteverdi specifies both contrabass violin and 
contrabass viol in the 1607 score to "L'Orfeo." 
Perhaps a pickup orchestra, but closely modeled 
on descriptions of the varied instrumentation 
described in the performances of 16th century 
intermedii.


Praetorius shows us the instrument itself, which 
sort of implies that it was known and used by 
1618 in southern Germany.


Schütz specifically calls for contrabass or 
violone in some music, but I can't remember 
which.  Possibly in the Funeral Music.  One 
assumes that he had a regular group of musicians 
where he worked, the direct ancestors of what 
became the "orchestra."


Corelli may not have specified violone in his 
concertos, but specifically mentions it as 
appropriate for his church sonatas.




If by "orchestra" you mean a permanent (i.e., 
not ad-hoc) instrumental  ensemble  dominated 
by members of the violin family playing in 
massed sections, then yes, it apparently is 
unqualifiedly true. The Vingt-quatre  violons du 
roy had no 16' voice. Lully's opera orchestra 
had no 16' voice. Corelli's orchestra had no 
16' voice. Contrabasses (one or two) began to 
creep into a few orchestras (not the most 
important) in the 1690s, but that is the only 
qualification I can think of. The details (and 
*massive* documentation) are in _The Birth of 
the Orchestra_, wh. I have recommended here 
before.


We can both cite examples, which simply means 
that practice had not become hard and fast, but I 
would have to question any dogmatic statement 
that 16' instruments did not exist or were not 
used in the entire 17th century.  As to "massed 
sections," the numbers were certainly no more 
than we would call a chamber orchestra today.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 18:56, John Howell wrote:

> Again, you are taking a 20th century viewpoint and arguing from 20th
> century assumptions.  Iconography from the Burgundian court (14th-15th
> centuries) show a typical dance band consisting of two shawms
> improvising over a cantus firmus played by a slide trumpet. No
> percussion.  In fact the only percussion shown is the tabor drum of
> the pipe & tabor player.  If the painters of the time didn't show
> percussion, how can assume it was used.

Well, not to dispute your actual point, but it's important to 
remember that we can't treat iconographic sources as though they were 
photographs of real events. That's quite clear from the bizarro 
playing techniques we see in any number of depictions of stringed 
instruments, or in the keyboards with the wrong number of keys and so 
forth. The contents of paintings and engravings was often not 
depicting a real incident so much as it was intended to bring 
together a number of visual elements for their symbolic meaning. 

Seen in that way, we can't really say if the relative absence of 
percussion in period icnography really means that the instruments 
were not used. Nor would the inclusion of them necessarily prove that 
they were.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] OT: Record Collectors?

[Chuck Israels]

Hi Karen,

I have one too - with all kinds of stuff I'd like to sell, but it's  
not organized.  No idea what it's worth, but people tell me it's Ebay  
fodder.  Besides a good jazz collection, I have many pristine  
recordings of 20th Century things I collected when we used to get  
LP's (as NARAS members) for a buck and a half apiece.  I just bought  
anything I thought might be interesting back in the days when I  
thought I'd have time to listen to a lot of new music.  I bet I have  
500 LP's in the basement.


Chuck


On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Karen wrote:


Hi all,

I have a friend that has a pretty extensive record collection (yes,  
actual vinyl...:-)) and is looking to sell it.  Is there anyone on  
this list who is a record collector or might know someone who is?   
My friend has everything in an Excel spreadsheet so it would be  
very easy for someone to take a look at it.  He's threatening to  
haul everything down to Amoeba Music (a used record store here in  
LA) and I'm trying to get him to have someone who might know more  
about record collecting to have a look at it first.  He has a lot  
of the original Jazz recordings; Blue Note, Verve etc. along with  
some of the original Beatles records too.  My heart breaks thinking  
about them going anywhere but where someone would really be able to  
appreciate them.  It is a collection he has been working on for  
many years.  Feel free to e-mail me off list if you'd rather :-)


Thanks very much in advance!  Have a great weekend.

Best,

Karen

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Chuck Israels]

Hi Dennis,

I've no idea who these folks were.  The cellist was a woman, and the  
occasion was a going away party for one of the violinists in the pit  
orchestra of "Promises, Promises" who was leaving for a teaching  
position in Athens, GA.  Must have been 1968-69, a long time ago.


Wish I could remember more.

Chuck


On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:


At 01:21 PM 2/17/06 -0800, Chuck Israels wrote:
I once attended a party of musicians in NY where the music was  
provided by

a cellist and accordionist playing mostly Baroque music.


Any chance that was Rip Keller and Tamas Kalmar? You should hear  
them do

the slow movement of the Beethoven 7th on two accordions. :)

Dennis




--

Please participate in my latest project:
http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/365-2007.html


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel

[eshbmusic1]

Thanks, everyone! I found the info about formatting as text about two pages later! But haven't found the "3/4 solution, David, so thank you. Richard Willis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hi again, Erica,     If you want to do a row or column of time signatures, go to Format -> Cell(s) -> General and choose Text for the cells selected.  That will ensure any numbers you enter will be treated not as numbers that could be reduced but as text.     Hope this helps.     Richard     From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of eshbmusic1Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 6:05 PMTo: finale@shsu.eduSubject: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel   Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual! I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1!
 /2.
 Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIAErica BuxbaumRelax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!___Finale mailing
 listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
		Brings words and photos together (easily) with 
PhotoMail  - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[John Howell]

At 1:55 PM -0500 2/17/06, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
I have the Harmonia Mundi CD entitled "Ouverture" featuring a lot of 
music from the Hamburg opera during the Baroque. I love the 
recording and the use of a lot of percussion instruments adds a 
level of vitality to the performances.


Which raises a question in my mind, how authentic is improvised 
percussion to Baroque music?


Probably not authentic at all.  I can't recall seeing any iconography 
that included percussion instruments.  Opera is a different can of 
worms, of course, since percussion might have come under "special 
effects," but I can't imagine even an opera composer leaving it up to 
a player to improvise.


 Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they were 
used in all types of music of his period.


Actually we know nothing of the kind.  Once again, the iconography 
does not, in general, support your statement.  And "all types" 
certainly includes sacred music, which I really can't picture with 
improvised percussion.


Why would such instruments have been dropped during the Baroque 
period, especially when so much of the music of that period was 
based on the dance (where such additions would have been allowed).


Again, you are taking a 20th century viewpoint and arguing from 20th 
century assumptions.  Iconography from the Burgundian court 
(14th-15th centuries) show a typical dance band consisting of two 
shawms improvising over a cantus firmus played by a slide trumpet. 
No percussion.  In fact the only percussion shown is the tabor drum 
of the pipe & tabor player.  If the painters of the time didn't show 
percussion, how can assume it was used.


And of course there's no real indication that minuets, allemands, 
corentes and gigues would have "allowed" the addition of percussion. 
Again, the iconography simply doesn't show it.


That said, however, I have felt free to add percussion to very 
selected medieval or renaissance music for which I felt it 
appropriate, but not in general and not all the time and not always 
in dance music.




Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a 
musical faux paux?


Yes.  But you go right ahead if you're the conductor and it's your band!

John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel

[eshbmusic1]

Thanks, everyone! I found the info about formatting as text about two pages later! But haven't found the "3/4 solution, David, so thank you. Richard Willis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hi again, Erica,     If you want to do a row or column of time signatures, go to Format -> Cell(s) -> General and choose Text for the cells selected.  That will ensure any numbers you enter will be treated not as numbers that could be reduced but as text.     Hope this helps.     Richard     From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of eshbmusic1Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 6:05 PMTo: finale@shsu.eduSubject: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel   Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual! I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1!
 /2.
 Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIAErica BuxbaumRelax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!___Finale mailing
 listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
	
		 Yahoo! Mail 
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel

[Richard Willis]

Hi again, Erica,

 

If you want to do a row or column of time
signatures, go to Format -> Cell(s) -> General and choose Text for the
cells selected.  That will ensure any numbers you enter will be treated not as
numbers that could be reduced but as text.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Richard

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
eshbmusic1
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006
6:05 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: [Finale] OT Time
Signatures in Excel



 



Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!





 





I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel
spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4
rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it.
Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know how to keep this
from happening? 





TIA





Erica Buxbaum









Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus
scanning helps detect nasty viruses!






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel

[Owain Sutton]

Select relevant cells - right click - format cells - 'number' tab - 
choose 'Text' as the category



eshbmusic1 wrote:

Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!
 
I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel spreadsheet. 
I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 
rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I 
enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know 
how to keep this from happening?

TIA
Erica Buxbaum


Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning 
 
helps detect nasty viruses!





___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel

[Richard Willis]

Have you tried to enter an apostrophe
(unshifted quote)?

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
eshbmusic1
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006
6:05 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: [Finale] OT Time
Signatures in Excel



 



Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!





 





I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel
spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4
rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it.
Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know how to keep this
from happening? 





TIA





Erica Buxbaum









Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus
scanning helps detect nasty viruses!






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel

[Christopher Smith]

On Feb 17, 2006, at 6:05 PM, eshbmusic1 wrote:


Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!
 
I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel spreadsheet. 
I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 
rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I 
enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know 
how to keep this from happening?

TIA
Erica Buxbaum



You don't say what you are using the data for, but if you format the 
cell as Text, it will keep the entries you make exactly as you enter 
them, and not reduce or transform them in any way.


If you need the cell to stay numerical, you may be out of luck, but I 
can't imagine what would cause that need.


Christopher


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 15:05, eshbmusic1 wrote:

> Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!
> 
>   I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel
>   spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to
>   display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8
>   to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to
>   1/2. Anyone know how to keep this from happening? TIA Erica Buxbaum

Enter "3/4 instead of just 3/4. That tells Excel that you're entering 
text and not numbers.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:31, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
> On 17.02.2006 Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
> > Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a
> > musical faux paux?
> 
> Good question. I tend to think that Bach wouldn't have had one, but
> it's quite obviously possible to add it. On the other hand, Bach's
> orchestral suites are imo not at all operatic, so perhaps it would be
> a little weird?

I think it's important to ask three questions:

1. what would Bach have done?

2. what would Bach have preferred?

3. what would contemporaries, given Bach's music to perform, have 
done?

The answers have different degrees of applicability to what the 
modern performer can choose to do. And, of course, it depends on the 
aim of your performance, to recreate or to re-imagine for our own 
time.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 15:21, Andrew Stiller wrote:

> On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:55 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
> 
> > how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music?
> 
> It's authentic  where it is known to have been used (as in Handel's
> Music for the Royal Fireworks)--and not elsewhere!

Is that a joke?

We know some about performance practice, but very little. From what I 
remember there are some vague statements of the order of "percussion 
instruments would be used with this kind of music" but nothing 
notated and very little documentation of particular performances.

But just because we lack exact information doesn't mean the practice 
of adding non-notated percussion couldn't be fully authentic. It 
really does depend. 

The exact nature of what the instruments played is itself highly 
speculative, though, even when we know the instruments were used. 

But we don't know much about appropriate performance for lots of 
notated music, either (e.g., Parisian organum).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] OT Time Signatures in Excel

[eshbmusic1]

Sorry for the OT post, and I did read the manual!     I am trying to enter data about musical works in an Excel spreadsheet. I've figured out how to get a 3/4 time signature to display as 3/4 rather than March 4, but can't find a way to get 6/8 to remain as I enter it. Excel wants to reduce it to 3/4, and 2/4 to 1/2. Anyone know how to keep this from happening?   TIA  Erica Buxbaum
		Relax. Yahoo! Mail 
virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:21, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
> > In this case, the question was how much original contribution is
> > required to create a new work that is eligible for copyright
> > independent from the original work. It seems to me that this is a
> > distinction you continue to miss, Johannes, one that would be easier
> > to grasp if you'd read the decisions (both of which are quite
> > entertaining reading, seems to me).
> 
> Imo this kind of decision is something a court of law simply cannot
> make. One note of originality has to be enough. If the record company
> doesn't like that they have plenty of other options.

Well, that may be the way *you* see it, but the appeals court in 
Britain did not see it that way.

And I think it's absurd to use one note as the basis for creating an 
independent copyright in the work. If that were the case, I could 
take a composition of yours, change one note and get independent 
copyright on the basis of that one note.

I would agree, though, that a court of law is an improper forum for 
judging this question. That's why certain musical organizations in 
the UK have suggested setting up their own boards for considering and 
mediating these kinds of disputes, composed of people who know music 
but are also experienced in copyright law. That sounds very sensible 
to me -- let the ASCAPs and other such rights-management 
organizations make these determinations as independent tribunals.

Of course, there's a political aspect to this, too, as can be seen in 
the disputes in Hollywood over credit on film scripts (mediated by 
the screenwriters' guild) and producing credits on films (I forget 
who mediates that, but there was an article in the NY Times recently 
about disputes on this subject), but I think it's better than forcing 
these things directly into a trial court where a judge has to make th 
edecision.

Of course, in the present instance, it had to go to court, because 
Sawkins was asking for a change in the UK copyright law. Once that 
change as been made, such disputes could be mediated by a third party 
organization and go to trial only when the parties refuse to accept 
the mediator's decision.

But, again, I reiterate: this is not about copyright in typographical 
arrangements, but about copyright in the musical work conveyed in the 
edition. Ironically, even the typographical arrangement copyright 
doesn't come from just changing one note -- you can't just reprint an 
edition under copyright and add one change to the musical text. So, I 
would think your "one-note" rule makes even less sense for the area 
of copyright in the work itself.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:17, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
> > Unique by one note? Two notes? Three? 
> 
> How many notes make it unique enough? 10? 100?

"Uniqueness" was not one of the points considered by the judges to be 
relevant to their determination. There were 50-odd changes by Sawkins 
in the piece that they threw out as not having sufficient original 
contributions by Sawkins to merit getting separate copyright.

Again, you're discussing the issue in apparent ignorance of the 
facts, and this makes it quite hard to conduct a reasoned discussion.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:16, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
> > As he should have.
> > 
> > Do you really think that the argument against Sawkins has been an
> > argument against royalties for all editions, no matter the degree of
> > original work included in them?
> 
> So where is the line? . . .

Seeing as how we're talking about music here, the answer is that it 
depends entirely on the context and the facts of the individual case. 
That was, in fact, the way the judges in the decision approached it. 
They had to consider the specifics of the particular edition before 
making their determination, so there is no blanket requirement that 
royalties be paid, only when there is sufficient original 
contribution by the editor to justify it.

> . . . Two missing viola parts? Three? All the strings?
> Does an oboe part count more than a viola part? Is a bass line more
> valuable in baroque music than in late clssical? This is precisely the
> problem the court faced.

I addressed this at length in another post.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:14, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
> > I don't see how they could have known better, as they were operating
> > under the to-then-standard interpretation of the applicable UK
> > copyright law.
> 
> I am by no means a lawer, but I believe you do not fully understand
> how European law functions. There are aspects of European law which
> are above national law. There are other aspects where national law has
> to be changed to comply with European standards. And there are aspects
> where national law still stands above European law (when it touches
> constitutional aspects, but I believe the UK doesn't have a
> constitution.)

Well, you're right -- I don't know that much about how European law 
operates. I do know that the UK tries to keep itself somewhat 
separate from the rest of Europe. I also know that the law considered 
in the appeals decision was entirely UK law. Indeed, the decision 
explicitly rejects as a basis for its findings a French decision in 
Sawkins's favor. 

That seems to indicate that it's not just me who thinks that European 
law doesn't apply, but also the judges on the UK appeals court who 
heard the case.

But perhaps they were wrong and you, the non-lawyer who lives outside 
the UK, actually understand the applicable law better than sitting UK 
judges.

> Whatever the case, it is becoming a little boring now.

I've found it quite boring to have to repeatedly reiterate the facts 
of the case, yes.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] OT: Record Collectors?

[Karen]

Hi all,

I have a friend that has a pretty extensive record collection (yes,  
actual vinyl...:-)) and is looking to sell it.  Is there anyone on  
this list who is a record collector or might know someone who is?  My  
friend has everything in an Excel spreadsheet so it would be very  
easy for someone to take a look at it.  He's threatening to haul  
everything down to Amoeba Music (a used record store here in LA) and  
I'm trying to get him to have someone who might know more about  
record collecting to have a look at it first.  He has a lot of the  
original Jazz recordings; Blue Note, Verve etc. along with some of  
the original Beatles records too.  My heart breaks thinking about  
them going anywhere but where someone would really be able to  
appreciate them.  It is a collection he has been working on for many  
years.  Feel free to e-mail me off list if you'd rather :-)


Thanks very much in advance!  Have a great weekend.

Best,

Karen

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Kim Patrick Clow]

Really? Which instruments??
 
 
On 2/17/06, Andrew Stiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote: 
On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:55 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:> how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music? 
It's authentic  where it is known to have been used (as in Handel'sMusic for the Royal Fireworks)--and not elsewhere!> Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they were> used in all types of music of his period. 
No we don't. Some of the instruments he  depicts are peasantinstruments that would never have used in any of the surviving (i.e.,written) music of the period. Others are military signallinginstruments, and *none*, to the best of my knowledge, would have been 
used for anything more exalted than social dance music--i.e., pop.My wife coined  the term "tinkleplunk" as a measure of the degree towhich a modern Renaissance ensemble is willing to pander to a modern 
audience. The more percussion and other inappropriate instruments, themore lowbrow and "Renaissance Faire"ish.Andrew StillerKallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/___Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
-- Kim Patrick Clow"There's really only two types of music: good and bad." ~ Rossini 
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[YATESLAWRENCE]

I was once witness to a wonderful perfomance of the famous Bach 
Badinerie as part of the Avignon festival.  
 
The group played from the top of a tarred and feathered open-top 
double decker bus and consisted of a flautist, a violinist, a cellist and a 
keyboard player.  In front of them stood a conductor and behind them, two 
dark-skinned gentlemen who beat the living daylights out of cymbals and a drum 
in the style of a military march.
 
The memory still brings a tear to my eye.
 
All the best,
 
Lawrence
 
"þaes 
ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.ukDulcian 
Wind Quintet: http://dulcianwind.co.uk
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 01:21 PM 2/17/06 -0800, Chuck Israels wrote:
>I once attended a party of musicians in NY where the music was provided by
>a cellist and accordionist playing mostly Baroque music.

Any chance that was Rip Keller and Tamas Kalmar? You should hear them do
the slow movement of the Beethoven 7th on two accordions. :)

Dennis




-- 

Please participate in my latest project:
http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/365-2007.html


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 Chuck Israels wrote:

I once attended a party of musicians in NY where the music was provided by a cellist and 
accordionist playing mostly Baroque music.  It changed my perception of the accordion.  
the players were superb, and the "breathing" of the accordion gave the continuo 
parts a kind of life that was different from the usual harpsichord sound, but certainly 
no less beautiful.  Always ready for good surprises.



I once heard a Belgian Saxophone ensemble play the Badinerie from Bach's 
B minor Suite. They swinged it, and I must admit it was one of the most 
beautiful moments I ever experienced in a peformance.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Chuck Israels]

I once attended a party of musicians in NY where the music was provided by a cellist and accordionist playing mostly Baroque music.  It changed my perception of the accordion.  the players were superb, and the "breathing" of the accordion gave the continuo parts a kind of life that was different from the usual harpsichord sound, but certainly no less beautiful.  Always ready for good surprises.ChuckOn Feb 17, 2006, at 11:40 AM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:Not far removed from the accordion,but mouth harps were used for basso continuo sometimes.  On 2/17/06, Carl Dershem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kim Patrick Clow wrote:> > Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical > > faux paux?Not as much as the use of Accordion or Bagpipes would be.Nah - it depends on how used, as always.cd--http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Kim Patrick Clow"There's really only two types of music: good and bad." ~ Rossini ___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale  Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com  ___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 Kim Patrick Clow wrote:

Which raises a question in my mind, how authentic is improvised percussion to 
Baroque music? Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they 
were used in all types of music of his period. Why would such instruments have 
been dropped during the Baroque period, especially when so much of the music of 
that period was based on the dance (where such additions would have been 
allowed).


Improvised percussion was most certainly added for many things, 
especially in French opera (and English for that matter).
 
Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux?


Good question. I tend to think that Bach wouldn't have had one, but it's 
quite obviously possible to add it. On the other hand, Bach's orchestral 
suites are imo not at all operatic, so perhaps it would be a little weird?


I recently took part in the new Naxos recording of Fireworks and 
Watermusic, and conductor Kevin Mallon added quite a lot of percussion, 
which is defintiely very authentic, as we know that Handel used military 
side drums and other percussion, at least for the Firewors.


Great disc, btw, only came out a few weeks ago. And your's truly is on 
it with a little solo, too, so it's definitely worth it (and only costs 
5.99 Euros over here).
(Handel: Fireworks and Watermusic, The Aradia Ensemble Toronto, Kevin 
Mallon, conductor, also available as SACD and DVD-Audio)


(Sorry about the self-promotion, incidentally I don't get royalties for it)

Johannes

--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
In this case, the question was how much original contribution is 
required to create a new work that is eligible for copyright 
independent from the original work. It seems to me that this is a 
distinction you continue to miss, Johannes, one that would be easier 
to grasp if you'd read the decisions (both of which are quite 
entertaining reading, seems to me).




Imo this kind of decision is something a court of law simply cannot 
make. One note of originality has to be enough. If the record company 
doesn't like that they have plenty of other options.


Johannes


--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Contrabass and clefs

[Andrew Stiller]

On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:17 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 16 Feb 2006 at 23:50, Andrew Stiller wrote:


(17th-c. orchestras had no 16' voice)


Is this really true as an unqualified statement? Orchestral practice
was very, very different in different places, and, of course, the
whole idea of an "orchestra" did not really quite yet exist in the
way we use it.


If by "orchestra" you mean a permanent (i.e., not ad-hoc) instrumental  
ensemble  dominated  by members of the violin family playing in massed 
sections, then yes, it apparently is unqualifiedly true. The 
Vingt-quatre  violons du  roy had no 16' voice. Lully's opera orchestra 
had no 16' voice. Corelli's orchestra had no  16' voice. Contrabasses 
(one or two) began to creep into a few orchestras (not the most 
important) in the 1690s, but that is the only qualification I can think 
of. The details (and *massive* documentation) are in _The Birth of the 
Orchestra_, wh. I have recommended here before.



There were certainly 16' instruments used in various
repertories of vocal music with instruments (especially in Germany)
and in instrumental music alone (in England, and in Italy, too; I
don't know so much about French music of the period).


The main "home" of the contrabass in the 17th c. was as reinforcement 
for choral bass lines in church (apparently all over the world [not 
just Europe, NB]), and  it was from there that it migrated into the 
orchestra ca. 1700.


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
I don't see how they could have known better, as they were operating 
under the to-then-standard interpretation of the applicable UK 
copyright law.




I am by no means a lawer, but I believe you do not fully understand how 
European law functions. There are aspects of European law which are 
above national law. There are other aspects where national law has to be 
changed to comply with European standards. And there are aspects where 
national law still stands above European law (when it touches 
constitutional aspects, but I believe the UK doesn't have a constitution.)


Whatever the case, it is becoming a little boring now.

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Andrew Stiller]

On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:55 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:


how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music?


It's authentic  where it is known to have been used (as in Handel's 
Music for the Royal Fireworks)--and not elsewhere!


Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they were 
used in all types of music of his period.


No we don't. Some of the instruments he  depicts are peasant 
instruments that would never have used in any of the surviving (i.e., 
written) music of the period. Others are military signalling 
instruments, and *none*, to the best of my knowledge, would have been 
used for anything more exalted than social dance music--i.e., pop.


My wife coined  the term "tinkleplunk" as a measure of the degree to  
which a modern Renaissance ensemble is willing to pander to a modern 
audience. The more percussion and other inappropriate instruments, the 
more lowbrow and "Renaissance Faire"ish.



Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
Unique by one note? Two notes? Three? 



How many notes make it unique enough? 10? 100?

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:

As he should have.

Do you really think that the argument against Sawkins has been an 
argument against royalties for all editions, no matter the degree of 
original work included in them?




So where is the line? Two missing viola parts? Three? All the strings? 
Does an oboe part count more than a viola part? Is a bass line more 
valuable in baroque music than in late clssical? This is precisely the 
problem the court faced.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Re: Sawkins and Hyperion (again)

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 1:10, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 16.02.2006 Ken Moore wrote:
> >> In Europe this is already the case, there is nothing new about it.
> > 
> > Yes, but it's new to the UK.
> 
> I was still under the impression that the UK was part of Europe, but I
> might be wrong. :-o

This is one of the issues that confuses me in the whole discussion. 
How is it that there's so much variation in copyright law when 
everyone has supposedly all signed the same international treaty on 
the subject (Berne Convention)? What's the point of harmonizing 
copyright in 1978 and then having everybody write their own 
variations into law?

In the US, Sawkins would get no copyright protection in the work 
conveyed (only in the printed edition; i.e., no one could photocopy 
it, but anybody could perform it or record it without being required 
to pay royalties to the editor).

In Germany, he would have it as a matter of course, without needing 
to sue.

In the UK, before his lawsuit, the situation was like the US is now, 
but the Sawkins case has changed the situation to be more like 
Germany.

Then, of course, there's the US's ridiculously extended copyright 
terms (the Mickey Mouse Protection law, i.e., the Sony Bono Copyright 
Act).

What's the point of an international convention if everybody then 
goes off in all sorts of directions 20 years after it's singed? Am I 
misinterpreting what's in the Berne Convention? Is it merely an 
agreement to honor other country's copyright laws? I thought it was 
more than that, but if that's all it is, then that would explain all 
the variability.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[David W. Fenton]

On 16 Feb 2006 at 23:36, Andrew Stiller wrote:

> 
> On Feb 16, 2006, at 3:46 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
> 
> > In the case of the missing cornet parts, my guess is that it's
> > pretty clear that your choices are limited to to 2 or 3 different
> > notes within any harmonic context, but the figuration and voicing
> > need to be determined with no real information on what they should
> > have been.
> 
> I think that's overly optimistic. A "cornet solo" could, within the
> style of the  composer and his period, be  quite elaborate and full of
> non-harmonic tones  of all kinds. . . .

Well, I was assuming accompanimental roles for the cornets, and not 
any solos.

> . . . The guidance from the orchestral
> context in such a situation is really very limited, and the variety of
> credible solutions immense. . . .

If nobody in the rest of the orchestra has the leading part, that 
might imply that the cornet had it at that point. But if there were a 
doubling of a cornet solo by another instrument, that could mask the 
solo role of the cornet, so, yes, you're right -- I was overly 
optimistic, because I was thinking of a particular kind of cornet 
part (from my experience with band music, as copyist and arranger).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 1:24, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 16.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
> > Well, I'm not sure that alone has much utility in drawing the 
> > distinction. In the de Lalande with the missing viola part, leaving
> > it out is going to sound different from having it in, most obviously
> > in the parts for strings alone. But whatever one reconstructs is not
> > "creative," but implied by all the other available information.
> 
> I don't see the distinction. The reconstructed viola part might still
> have been different, no? That means Sawkins solution was unique, and
> depended on him. Doesn't that make it creative?

Unique by one note? Two notes? Three? 

There were two editions of the work with the missing viola part, and 
the Paillard and Sawkins reconstructions overlapped in all but a 
handful of notes. Hyperion alleged that Sawkins plagiarized, but 
there was no reason to do that (seems to me that Hyperion didn't have 
very good musicological advice if they didn't make the argument that 
any musicologist conversant in the repertory involved would likely 
have produced a viola part nearly identical to Sawkins's), as it's 
just a natural result of the highly circumscribed nature of the 
process of reconstructing an inner part in a piece of this nature.

I wouldn't call a part differing by 1 note to be "original". And my 
argument all along has been that the definition of "original" in the 
court decision is where things go wrong. They take the literalistic 
brain-dead approach (which you seem to be adocating with your 
question) that any exercise of judgment constitutes "creativity" 
and/or "originality." The court rejected that reading in its decision 
and required something more than that. They then turned around and 
accepted the 5 or 6 notes in the viola part as sufficient (this is 
another example of the court's "heads I win, tails you lose" approach 
to logic, seems to me).

Again, we are not talking here about what is necessary to gain 
copyright in an edition (a typograhical arrangement). In that 
context, yes, a handful of alterations are sufficient to create a 
unique edition.

In this case, the question was how much original contribution is 
required to create a new work that is eligible for copyright 
independent from the original work. It seems to me that this is a 
distinction you continue to miss, Johannes, one that would be easier 
to grasp if you'd read the decisions (both of which are quite 
entertaining reading, seems to me).

> Bob Levin reconstructed a Mozart concerto for violin and piano (a few
> years ago). What came out was something that was one of millions of
> possible solutions to the problem. Creative? Of course! But still, in
> it's sense, a reconstruction.

Have you been reading my messages to the list the last few days, 
Johannes? If you had been, you would have read me repeatedly giving 
examples of reconstructive work that would be sufficiently original 
("creative" was a word the judges rejected as having no legal 
meaning) to merit copyright as an independent work (rather than as a 
mere typographical arrangement). The distinction here that you 
repeatedly seem to miss is that this case was not about the 
typographical arrangement but about when an edition of a work 
includes sufficient original contributions from the editor to merit 
being treated as a work independent from the original for the 
purposes of determining eligibility for royalties from performers and 
recording companies. 

My understanding of all of this from all the reading I've done is 
that prior to this case, UK law had no such accomodations in it for 
editions at all, which were considered to never able to be 
sufficiently original to justify royalties. This case changed all 
that by defining a standard of originality that had to be met to 
merit the copyright in the edition as a work of music (i.e., that the 
piece of music that the printed edition (which has its own copyright 
as a typographical arrangement) conveys is itself copyrightable 
because it is an independent musical expression), which is what is 
required under UK law to be eligible for the performance/recording 
royalties that Sawkins demanded (in contradiction to the standard 
practice and the interpretation of UK copyright law up to the point 
that Sawkins won his lawsuit).

My position is that there are editions that obviously stand as pieces 
of music independent of the sources they are drawn from (most 
especially when those editions include major reconstructive work from 
incomplete sources). I agree that Sawkins edition as described does 
include some reconstruction. But that reconstructive work is so 
highly circumscribed by the other existing musical material (in both 
the case of the viola part and the figures added to the figured bass) 
that it should not qualify as sufficiently original (in the legal 
sense of the term in the UK, as described in the text of the two 
judgments) to merit independent copyright. 

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Kim Patrick Clow]

Not far removed from the accordion,but mouth harps were used for basso continuo sometimes. 
On 2/17/06, Carl Dershem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:> > Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical
> > faux paux?Not as much as the use of Accordion or Bagpipes would be.Nah - it depends on how used, as always.cd--http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#
___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
-- Kim Patrick Clow"There's really only two types of music: good and bad." ~ Rossini 
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 1:06, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 16.02.2006 David W. Fenton wrote:
> > I'm not calling for editors to not be paid, or to be paid less. I'm
> > simply calling for them to not be paid *more* than they have been in
> > the past, especially when it's justified by a claim that amounts to
> > stealing the compositional work of dead composers.
> 
> And all I said was the law grants royalties, and Hyperion should have
> known that. . . .

It seems to me that you are simply wrong on this. The law until 
*this* lawsuit reached its conclusion in the appeals court 
categorically did *not* grant royalties to the kind of work Sawkins 
did in editing. The law in the UK is now altered (it's now more like 
Germany's law, if I understand what you've said about it).

> . . . Whether you like it or not, Hyperion played with the fire
> and got badly burned. . . .

Hyperion was acting in accordance with how the applicable law in the 
UK had been interpreted up to that point. Sawkins was asking for what 
amounted to a change in the law.

> . . . I repeat what I said in my very first post on
> the subject: I am not taking sides on this whole issue (especially as
> I am actually part of all sides, musician, editor, and record
> company), but I do see this decision as being in line with the law,
> and actually not at all surprising. I totally agree that the amount
> granted by the court is well over the top, . . 

I've read both decisions, but I don't know that I recall any numbers 
for the royalties awarded. The large numbers I *have* read (£1 
million) were describing Hyperion's likely legal expenses in fighting 
the Sawkins suit.

> . . . but Hyperion simply should
> have known better. . . .

I don't see how they could have known better, as they were operating 
under the to-then-standard interpretation of the applicable UK 
copyright law.

The results of this lawsuit break new ground and give rights to 
editors that were not there before this lawsuit reached judgment in 
the appeals court.

> . . . I see absolutely no reason for them to consider
> themselves as the victim in this case. Then, I don't know many of the
> details, but so far I have not heard a single argument in this whole
> discussion that would make me believe that the court ruling was wrong,
> or out of line. And I don't actually see any impact (other than for
> Hyperion).

Since you have not read either of the decisions, I think your 
opinions on these matters do not carry much weight.

Likewise, you have repeatedly argued from a position (the one you 
reiterate in the passages quoted above) that is at odds with the 
facts, that being that Hyperion was trying to avoid a royalty it was 
legally required to pay. That is 100% contrafactual, and was the 
entire issue in dispute in this lawsuit -- before Sawkins vs. 
Hyperion was concluded in the appeals court, UK record companies were 
not legally obligated to pay performance/recording royalties to 
editors.

That has now changed, and it means a change in the structuring and 
financing of all early music recording projects by adding more people 
to the list of those who receive royalties.

Secondly, by refusing to read the decisions, you are missing out on 
how musically and musicologically (and purely logically) unsound the 
reasoning of the original trial judge happened to be. While the law 
can be read in any way that courts choose to read it, the law is more 
respected when those decisions are based on reasoning that is logical 
and consistent in the subject areas involved. In this case, the 
reasoning is pretty much nonsensical, and leads to results that are 
completely at odds with plain readings of the facts. While it is 
never wise to think about law as being based in "common sense," it 
*does* need to be rational in its bases, or it becomes merely 
arbitrary and capricious. This is a decision that puts the law in a 
poor light because the judges have repeatedly chosen the less logical 
readings of almost every aspect of musical fact that they were asked 
to consider in making their decision.

You may not have a problem with the result, and, frankly, I'm not 
sure I am bothered as a matter of copyright law, but the law in the 
UK has been changed by this decision on the basis of specious and 
erroneous interpretation of the musical and musicological evidence 
that was examined. I think that's a bad thing, especially since a 
correct and more logical consideration of the evidence would likely 
have reached the opposite conclusion.

And, in fact, Sawkins could have lost this suit and still have 
changed the law. It's possible for a court to find that there are 
cases where an editor's contribution is sufficiently original to 
engender independent copyright in the edition while also finding that 
Sawkins's work was not sufficient to meet that standard (the first 
judge did find that only 3 of the 4 pieces Sawkins editing qualified 
for copyright protection, because the 4th lacked sufficient

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Feb 2006 at 1:19, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 16.02.2006 Andrew Stiller wrote:
> > The Baroque ensemble Tempesta di Mare has made a name for itself in
> > part through its performances and recordings of reconstructed lute
> > concertos by Sylvius Leopold Weiss--concertos for which only the
> > lute part actually survives. The entire orchestral part had to be
> > recreated. The resulting pieces sound very convincing and realistic,
> > and are credited to Weiss, but I can't help but thinking, each time
> > I hear one of them, that if Handel had done the exact same
> > thing--taken a Weiss lute part and added new orchestral 
> > accompaniments--that we would not hesitate a moment to
> > ascribe the resulting work to Handel, not Weiss. Your thoughts?
> 
> Incidentally, the extremely popular disc of Heinichen concerti with
> Musica Antiqua Cologne is the exact same situation (for the same
> reasons), where Reinhard Goebel "reconstructed" the orchestral parts,
> and some argue that it is more in the style of Reinhard Goebel than in
> the style of Heinichen. I am sure Goebel got a good royalty
> compensation for it...;-)

As he should have.

Do you really think that the argument against Sawkins has been an 
argument against royalties for all editions, no matter the degree of 
original work included in them?

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Re: Sawkins and Hyperion (again)

[Ken Moore]

Johannes Gebauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
JG:
 In Europe this is already the case, there is nothing new about it.

KCM:
>> Yes, but it's new to the UK.

JG:
> I was still under the impression that the UK was part of Europe, but I
might be wrong. :-o

Thus proving your initial assertion to be incorrect: the UK is the part 
of Europe to which this law is new with the Hyperion decision.  It may 
be that the judge decided to do a unilateral unification of the UK legal 
system with that of the rest of the EC, but if so he was out of order, 
because the normal process for that is an Act of Parliament.


--
Ken Moore
Musician and engineer

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Contrabass and clefs

[David W. Fenton]

On 16 Feb 2006 at 23:50, Andrew Stiller wrote:

> (17th-c. orchestras had no 16' voice)

Is this really true as an unqualified statement? Orchestral practice 
was very, very different in different places, and, of course, the 
whole idea of an "orchestra" did not really quite yet exist in the 
way we use it. There were certainly 16' instruments used in various 
repertories of vocal music with instruments (especially in Germany) 
and in instrumental music alone (in England, and in Italy, too; I 
don't know so much about French music of the period). While these 
weren't "orchestral" music, they were not so much different from 
music that had "massed" (relatively speaking) string bodies (i.e., 
multiple players on a part, instead of solo).

I just don't think it was quite as simple as "no 16' voice in 17th 
century orchestras" would make it sound.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Carl Dershem]

Phil Daley wrote:


At 2/17/2006 01:20 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

 >On 17 Feb 2006, at 11:12 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:
 >
 >> He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an
 >> integral part of the work,
 >
 >What makes you think it isn't?

Didn't Cage say that coughing and sneezing during a performance meant 
that each performance was unique?


I personally don't buy it.


Cage often pushed the boundaries.  But, as a primarily jazz musician, I 
have to agree that changes in the performance make each performance an 
unique qork.  That said, what the baudience does rarely has any 
significant effet.  (Though the one time the drunk walked through the 
middle of the band did alter things noticeably).


cd
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Carl Dershem]

Kim Patrick Clow wrote:

> Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical 
> faux paux?


Not as much as the use of Accordion or Bagpipes would be.

Nah - it depends on how used, as always.

cd
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Phil Daley]

At 2/17/2006 01:20 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

>On 17 Feb 2006, at 11:12 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>> He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an
>> integral part of the work,
>
>What makes you think it isn't?

Didn't Cage say that coughing and sneezing during a performance meant that 
each performance was unique?


I personally don't buy it.

Phil Daley  < AutoDesk >
http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Percussion and Baroque Music (Improvised or not)

[Kim Patrick Clow]

I have the Harmonia Mundi CD entitled "Ouverture" featuring a lot of music from the Hamburg opera during the Baroque. I love the recording and the use of a lot of percussion instruments adds a level of vitality to the performances.

 
Which raises a question in my mind, how authentic is improvised percussion to Baroque music? Praetorius lists many percussion instruments; and we know they were used in all types of music of his period. Why would such instruments have been dropped during the Baroque period, especially when so much of the music of that period was based on the dance (where such additions would have been allowed).

 
Would a tambourine in a Bach Orchestral Suite be that much of a musical faux paux?Thanks,
 
Kim Patrick Clow
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:



On 17 Feb 2006, at 11:12 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:

He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an  integral 
part of the work,



What makes you think it isn't?

Though I might have said "an integral part of that rendition," since,  
as you note, Bob does it differently each time. But there's nothing  
worse than someone singing a pure-voiced, perfectly in-tune Dylan  
cover. It's like an alto player playing one of Duke's Johnny Hodges  
features and straightening out all the bent notes.


But on the other hand, there's also nothing worse than a singer who 
sings the same darn note out of tune all the time because that's how 
Dylan sang it on the record.




--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:
[snip]>
He gets teased mercilessly, but he thinks his work will go down in the 
annals of musicology.

[snip]

Sounds more like he should go down in the "anals" of history!  :-o

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Michael Cook]

On 17 Feb 2006, at 19:28, Raymond Horton wrote:

 Somewhere along the way, someone added three trombone and timp parts 
to the overture that are commonly played, and these are in the 
Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the latter yesterday, AAMOF.)


No, the trombone parts are original Rossini. I don't have access to the 
different versions of this overture that were used for the other two 
operas, but the trombone parts certainly come from one of these 
versions.


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Carl Dershem]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

 >> He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an  integral

part of the work,


What makes you think it isn't?

Though I might have said "an integral part of that rendition," since,  
as you note, Bob does it differently each time. But there's nothing  
worse than someone singing a pure-voiced, perfectly in-tune Dylan  
cover. It's like an alto player playing one of Duke's Johnny Hodges  
features and straightening out all the bent notes.


That's where "elevator muzak' comes from.

cd
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Raymond Horton]

Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:

In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the 
overture is:


1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str



Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are 
there not (this is important for me...).


Johannes



In the reprint ms of the overture that I recall seeing years ago, 
(reprinted at the back of a printed library full score of the opera) 
there were no trombones or timpani.  Somewhere along the way, someone 
added three trombone and timp parts to the overture that are commonly 
played, and these are in the Dover-Ricordi score (I just looked at the 
latter yesterday, AAMOF.)  I don't believe the trombones appear again in 
the entire opera in the Dover-Ricordi score.  



It looks like it can be, and has been, performed either way with 
conviction.  Many years ago I played it under one conductor who kept 
telling us to play softly, since their were no trombones in the ms.  I 
wanted to ask him if we should leave, but I was more shy when I was young.



(Anyone used to hearing the Warner Brothers cartoons will miss the 
trombones, of course.)



RBH
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Darcy James Argue]

On 17 Feb 2006, at 11:12 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:

He also claims that each out-of-tune note Dylan sings is an  
integral part of the work,


What makes you think it isn't?

Though I might have said "an integral part of that rendition," since,  
as you note, Bob does it differently each time. But there's nothing  
worse than someone singing a pure-voiced, perfectly in-tune Dylan  
cover. It's like an alto player playing one of Duke's Johnny Hodges  
features and straightening out all the bent notes.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://secretsociety.typepad.com
Brooklyn, NY


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Michael Cook]

It's quite probable that in the first performance of "Barbiere" there 
were no trombones in the overture, since they don't play in the rest of 
the opera. But concert performances of this overture often use 
trombones. The Eulenburg miniature score has the three trombones. It 
also has important rhythmical and harmonic differences with the 
overture in my Ricordi score, and I remember that the Zedda edition has 
other differences.


I know that the Zedda edition is meant to be "critical", but it's 
better to accept that there is no cast-iron "right" version of the 
overture. Rossini adapted the scoring of the piece (used, as I said, 
for two other operas previous to "Barbiere") to what he had at hand. If 
he had trombones available for a performance he would probably have 
used them.


On 17 Feb 2006, at 18:27, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:
In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the 
overture is:

1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str


Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are 
there not (this is important for me...).


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Peter Lockwood]

No trombones in Ricordi critical edition (1969). 2 Trombe, yes, but that
means trumpets...
Peter
At 18:27 17/02/2006, you wrote:
On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook
wrote:
In my score (Dover reprint of
old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture is:
1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa -
Str
Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are
there not (this is important for me...).
Johannes
-- 

http://www.musikmanufaktur.com

http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu

http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Peter Lockwood
Oudezijds Armsteeg 4a
1012 GP  Amsterdam
The Netherlands
tel:    +31 (0)20 420 6111
gsm: +31 (0)6 5335 4474
“Siamo angeli con un’ala soltanto e possiamo volare solo restando
abbracciati.”
(Luciano de Crescenzo) 

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Peter Lockwood]

In the Zedda critical edition for Ricordi the piccolos do not play in the
overture and Oboe 2 only plays in the Overture.

At 18:08 17/02/2006, you wrote:
In my score (Dover reprint of
old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture is:
1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str
'm pretty sure that there are other orchestrations, though, since the
overture was originally written for "Aureliano in Palmira" and
then used in "Elisabetta, Regina d'Ingilterra" and I think that
changes were made each time in the orchestration.
Michael
On 17 Feb 2006, at 17:41, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
If anyone has this at hand,
could you let me know? Only the overture.
Thanks,
Johannes

-- 

http://www.musikmanufaktur.com

http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu

http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu

http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Peter Lockwood
Oudezijds Armsteeg 4a
1012 GP  Amsterdam
The Netherlands
tel:    +31 (0)20 420 6111
gsm: +31 (0)6 5335 4474
“Siamo angeli con un’ala soltanto e possiamo volare solo restando
abbracciati.”
(Luciano de Crescenzo) 

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]

[Carl Dershem]

Chuck Israels wrote:


On Feb 17, 2006, at 7:57 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 17.02.2006 Chuck Israels wrote:

Thanks Johannes, for improving my meager understanding of German.   
Now I understand "Hauptbanhof" better too.



That's a very interesting one: a lot of Hauptbahnhöfe are in fact  
also Kopfbahnhöfe, and that would indeed translate into "head  
station". (But it means a Station which is a dead end, trains only  
leaving in one direction).


(I certainly didn't mean to be Mr wiseguy, should this have been  the 
impression!)


Not at all, Johannes,

I'm happy for the information, and now this provides a little more.


Many of us seem to revel in learning new things, even when their direct 
application to music is not as clear as it might otherwise be.


And besides, music takes a lot of *train*ing, which makes this 
applicable!  :)


cd
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 Michael Cook wrote:

In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the overture 
is:

1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str


Ah, now this is conflicting information. Are there 3 trombones, or are 
there not (this is important for me...).


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

Peter,

thanks, that's great!

Johannes

On 17.02.2006 Peter Lockwood wrote:

Overture:

2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets in C, 2 bassoons
2 horns in E flat, 2 trumpets in A
Timpani
Gran Cassa
Strings


At 17:41 17/02/2006, you wrote:

If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture.

Thanks,
Johannes




--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Michael Cook]

In my score (Dover reprint of old Ricordi) of the complete opera, the 
overture is:


1fl. + 1picc., 2, 2, 2 - 2, 2, 3 - Timpani, Gran Cassa - Str

'm pretty sure that there are other orchestrations, though, since the 
overture was originally written for "Aureliano in Palmira" and then 
used in "Elisabetta, Regina d'Ingilterra" and I think that changes were 
made each time in the orchestration.


Michael

On 17 Feb 2006, at 17:41, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture.

Thanks,
Johannes


--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Peter Lockwood]

Overture:
2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets in C, 2 bassoons
2 horns in E flat, 2 trumpets in A
Timpani
Gran Cassa
Strings

At 17:41 17/02/2006, you wrote:
If anyone has this at hand,
could you let me know? Only the overture.
Thanks,
Johannes

-- 

http://www.musikmanufaktur.com

http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu

http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Peter Lockwood
Oudezijds Armsteeg 4a
1012 GP  Amsterdam
The Netherlands
tel:    +31 (0)20 420 6111
gsm: +31 (0)6 5335 4474
“Siamo angeli con un’ala soltanto e possiamo volare solo restando
abbracciati.”
(Luciano de Crescenzo) 

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]

[Chuck Israels]

On Feb 17, 2006, at 7:57 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 17.02.2006 Chuck Israels wrote:
Thanks Johannes, for improving my meager understanding of German.   
Now I understand "Hauptbanhof" better too.


That's a very interesting one: a lot of Hauptbahnhöfe are in fact  
also Kopfbahnhöfe, and that would indeed translate into "head  
station". (But it means a Station which is a dead end, trains only  
leaving in one direction).


(I certainly didn't mean to be Mr wiseguy, should this have been  
the impression!)


Not at all, Johannes,

I'm happy for the information, and now this provides a little more.

Chuck




;-)
Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Scoring of Ouv Barber of Seville?

[Johannes Gebauer]

If anyone has this at hand, could you let me know? Only the overture.

Thanks,
Johannes


--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Christopher Smith]

On Feb 16, 2006, at 3:46 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


But, on the other hand, I think we know that in Mozart's time,
symphonies in certain keys in certain styles would often add trumpets
and drums as a matter of performance practice, improvised by the
performers reading from a bass line (Dwight Blazin has done work on
this subject in the Salzburg repertory). The military musicians in
Salzburg were not actually members of the Capella, but were
frequently called in to supplement the orchestra. And there is some
question as to the degree of their musical literacy.


You bring up a very important point that is often overlooked. While we 
tend to take every note and indication as gospel in these modern times, 
many of the musicians of the time were faking it, kind of like a 
cocktail trio does today. Berlioz, for one, is famous for clamping down 
on the liberties many musicians (and conductors!) took with music as a 
matter of course.


There's a musicologist I teach with who is nuts about Bob Dylan. He has 
transcribed many of his recordings meticulously and organised readings 
of the tunes. He doesn't seem to realise that all those arrangements 
were improvised off the cuff in the studio, and that if somebody hit a 
bum note, it stayed in because they didn't have another take that was 
cleaner. He insists that the musicians play the bum notes in his 
transcriptions and has ascribed all sorts of meaning to them that Dylan 
must have meant to put in. He also claims that each out-of-tune note 
Dylan sings is an integral part of the work, and wants the guitarist to 
tune his upper E string a little sharp because that's the way it is on 
the recording.


He gets teased mercilessly, but he thinks his work will go down in the 
annals of musicology.


Christopher


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 Chuck Israels wrote:

Thanks Johannes, for improving my meager understanding of German.  Now I understand 
"Hauptbanhof" better too.



That's a very interesting one: a lot of Hauptbahnhöfe are in fact also 
Kopfbahnhöfe, and that would indeed translate into "head station". (But 
it means a Station which is a dead end, trains only leaving in one 
direction).


(I certainly didn't mean to be Mr wiseguy, should this have been the 
impression!)


;-)
Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]

[Chuck Israels]

Thanks Johannes, for improving my meager understanding of German.   
Now I understand "Hauptbanhof" better too.


Chuck


On Feb 17, 2006, at 6:03 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 17.02.2006 Andrew Stiller wrote:
I like those symbols too.  According to Grove Concise, Schoenberg  
called the first one "Hauptstimme" ("head voice").


A more accurate translation would be "Main voice".

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Dynamics [was: 8th = Q]

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17.02.2006 Andrew Stiller wrote:

I like those symbols too.  According to Grove Concise, Schoenberg called the first one 
"Hauptstimme" ("head voice").


A more accurate translation would be "Main voice".

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Editions and Publishing Rights

[Christopher Smith]

On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:22 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:



On Feb 16, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:

 If Bach had written his "Jesu Joy Of Man's Desiring" today, he would 
have been credited as "arranged by..." and been eligible for no 
royalties at all unless the tune (the part with the words) was in the 
public domain.


 Everything he wrote - all the most interesting parts that make the 
piece good - are just the arrangement, by modern standards.


Not really true. He would have had to obtain permission from the 
copyright owner, but could then have copyrighted his own contribution 
as an original work. Form PA has a  place for the creator to designate 
exactly what aspect of the work is claimed as copyrightable, and 
another where original and derived portions of the work are clearly 
distinguished. Berio's _Sinfonia_ is but one example of a work full of 
qotations of copyrighted material, but considered, both legally and 
artistically, to be a fully original composition in its own right. 
Similarly, any composer's  "Variations on [X]" is not deemed an 
arrangement, whether [X] be copyrighted or not.




I guess that's where the modern departure occurs; so seldom are modern 
copyright owners willing to give this sort of permission that any work 
of this type that ends up being done is done as an arrangement. At 
least, I've had no luck. If Berio hadn't passed away recently I might 
have asked him what his trick was...


christopher

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Augenmusik

[Henry E. Howey]

I believe most orchestral players consider more than three f's or p's to
reside here. I once had the great pleasure of the company of the first
trombone in the Vienna Philharmonic who was an actual Viennese. To call
him phlegmatic was excessive. Mahler's dynamics were surely necessary to
rouse such as he to a respectable forte;-)


Henry Howey
Professor of Music
  Sam Houston State University
  Box 2208
  Huntsville, TX  77341
  (936) 294-1364
  http://www.shsu.edu/~music/faculty/howey.html
  Owner of FINALE Discussion List


-
Sent from SamMail at Sam Houston State University
See How Success Unfolds
 http://www.shsu.edu/
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale