Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

I think you guys are confirmed bottom-feeders, struggling to justify why the 
old adage about a cheap Mercedes is wrong.

Assuming the seller is not lying, a low mile and rust free diesel wagon that is 
not "rough" should easily be worth twice "what they go for all the time".  
Local market will drive the price.

If I were shopping for another wagon, I'd be all over that.
-- 
Max Dillon (who paid too much for his wagon)
Charleston SC
'87 300TD 
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Exactly. Otherwise it would be a 2-2.5k car like you say. Maybe even less. 124 
diesels are almost free these days around here. There was a decent 87 300d on 
cl a couple months ago that would not start after a filter change. Somebody 
bought it as I saw it in the last couple of weeks, runs and drives now. Price 
was $1900. Several weeks later it is now $900 and the ad is still up so I 
assume he has not sold it. I have a rough 87TD with a #17 head I but on cl for 
$1500 to see if there would be any action and I have got no bites.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 24, 2015, at 2:20 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On July 24, 2015 at 10:16 AM "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> His is about a $3500 car
> 
> Spending a ton of money bringing a car up to snuff does not raise its market
> value a corresponding amount, 
> but it does make the car a much better deal at $3500 than a $2500 car that 
> still
> needs all that stuff done 
> to it. 
> 
> Mitch. 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

A common line of thinking on Craigslist.  “I just put an exorbitant amount of 
money into this car so now it’s worth that and more.”

Never seems to work out, either.

Dan


> On Jul 24, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Spending a ton of money bringing a car up to snuff does not raise its market
> value a corresponding amount, 
> but it does make the car a much better deal at $3500 than a $2500 car that 
> still
> needs all that stuff done 
> to it. 
> 
> Mitch. 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On July 24, 2015 at 10:16 AM "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> His is about a $3500 car

Spending a ton of money bringing a car up to snuff does not raise its market
value a corresponding amount, 
but it does make the car a much better deal at $3500 than a $2500 car that still
needs all that stuff done 
to it. 

Mitch. 

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Thanks Dan, pix look like FL.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On July 24, 2015 12:48:17 PM EDT, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>I believe it was in Daytona Beach, FL.
>
>Dan
>
>
>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes
> wrote:
>> 
>> Location of this car?  Mobile website surfing stinks.
>> -- 
>> Max Dillon
>> Charleston SC
>> '87 300TD
>> '95 E300
>> ___
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>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I believe it was in Daytona Beach, FL.

Dan


> On Jul 24, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Location of this car?  Mobile website surfing stinks.
> -- 
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '87 300TD
> '95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Location of this car?  Mobile website surfing stinks.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

His is about a $3500 car

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Some have suggested that.  I don’t know what diesel wagons are going for 
> these days.  I know that vergasser W124 wagons are cheap as wine, regardless 
> of the condition.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 10:10 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The seller has smoked too much crack, it's way overpriced 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Some have suggested that.  I don’t know what diesel wagons are going for these 
days.  I know that vergasser W124 wagons are cheap as wine, regardless of the 
condition.

Dan




> On Jul 24, 2015, at 10:10 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The seller has smoked too much crack, it's way overpriced 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

The seller has smoked too much crack, it's way overpriced 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:03 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> No interest myself, just thought I would pass it along.  Seems like the 
> seller has put a lo of money into it.
> 
> http://www.benzworld.org/forums/sale-wanted-trade-giveaway/2408353-1987-300-td-wagon-7000-obo.html#post12501049
> 
> Dan
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

He’s down to $5600, too, in case you done go to the end of the thread.

Dan


> On Jul 24, 2015, at 10:03 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> No interest myself, just thought I would pass it along.  Seems like the 
> seller has put a lo of money into it.
> 
> http://www.benzworld.org/forums/sale-wanted-trade-giveaway/2408353-1987-300-td-wagon-7000-obo.html#post12501049
> 
> Dan
> ___
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[MBZ] 87 300TD Wagon

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

No interest myself, just thought I would pass it along.  Seems like the seller 
has put a lo of money into it.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/sale-wanted-trade-giveaway/2408353-1987-300-td-wagon-7000-obo.html#post12501049

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300TD rev counter.

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Curly, 

The plug on the top of the IP is the rack position sensor, nothing to do with 
idle. It has a locking ring that needs to be turned to allow removal.

There is a small two pin connector at the back of the IP, between IP and cruise 
control actuator, which is for idle.  Pinch to release.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On July 13, 2015 12:00:18 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>(I think EDC is the book term for the 
>electronic idle speed control plug on the top of the IP.)  

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300TD rev counter.

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

No, that one is for diagnostics, specifically setting the injection 
timing with the dynamic tool.


The one for the idle speed/tach is on the rear of the engine reading 
off the flywheel.


Peter


Interesting.  Thanks again.  We have a  87 124 300D that has a 
completely wacko idle.  Everything I've tried makes no difference.  I 
think the tach also goes wacky with the idle.  But when I unhook the 
idle speed electric connector on the pump it does the same wacky idle 
thing.I never thought of looking at the tach/instrument cluster 
as Dan suggests.


Is there some other connection between the hall effect 
sensor/tachometer to the throttle or idle speed control that would 
work with the EDC unhooked? (I think EDC is the book term for the 
electronic idle speed control plug on the top of the IP.)  It sounds 
like a flakey signal from the sensor would cause this, but I don't 
understand how it could work with the plug on top of the IP 
disconnected.


Next time I see the car (probably 6 months) I will look for this 
sender and connector at the rear.


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Brian Toscano]

I think I just put a mark on the bolts when I did it on a OM602.


On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 9:25 PM, OK Don  wrote:

> It's aluminum, under high pressure, and too expensive for me to risk
> messing it up. YMMV.
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Max Dillon  >wrote:
>
> > Ok, but why?  Removing and re-torquing one bolt at a time doesn't seem
> > like a recipe for warping the head.  There are twenty-two of them!
> > --
> > Max Dillon
> > Charleston SC
> > '95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
> >
> > OK Don  wrote:
> >
> > >NO! - Loosen the bolts in the pattern in the book - then
> > >re-torque/stretch
> > >them per the book. Do not pull out the bolts one at a time - at the
> > >risk of
> > >warping the head.
> > >
> > >On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Max Dillon
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> So should I pull one bolt at a time, measure stretch to make sure it
> > >is
> > >> still within spec, then torque in the three stages without the ten
> > >minute
> > >> wait before the last 90 degree turn, or do I need to keep the wait?
> > >> --
> > >> Max Dillon
> > >> Charleston SC
> > >> '95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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> >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> OK Don
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG
> 1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[OK Don]

It's aluminum, under high pressure, and too expensive for me to risk
messing it up. YMMV.

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Max Dillon wrote:

> Ok, but why?  Removing and re-torquing one bolt at a time doesn't seem
> like a recipe for warping the head.  There are twenty-two of them!
> --
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
>
> OK Don  wrote:
>
> >NO! - Loosen the bolts in the pattern in the book - then
> >re-torque/stretch
> >them per the book. Do not pull out the bolts one at a time - at the
> >risk of
> >warping the head.
> >
> >On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Max Dillon
> >wrote:
> >
> >> So should I pull one bolt at a time, measure stretch to make sure it
> >is
> >> still within spec, then torque in the three stages without the ten
> >minute
> >> wait before the last 90 degree turn, or do I need to keep the wait?
> >> --
> >> Max Dillon
> >> Charleston SC
> >> '95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
> >>
> >>
>
>
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-- 
OK Don
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Max Dillon]

Ok, but why?  Removing and re-torquing one bolt at a time doesn't seem like a 
recipe for warping the head.  There are twenty-two of them!
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

OK Don  wrote:

>NO! - Loosen the bolts in the pattern in the book - then
>re-torque/stretch
>them per the book. Do not pull out the bolts one at a time - at the
>risk of
>warping the head.
>
>On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Max Dillon
>wrote:
>
>> So should I pull one bolt at a time, measure stretch to make sure it
>is
>> still within spec, then torque in the three stages without the ten
>minute
>> wait before the last 90 degree turn, or do I need to keep the wait?
>> --
>> Max Dillon
>> Charleston SC
>> '95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
>>
>>


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[OK Don]

NO! - Loosen the bolts in the pattern in the book - then re-torque/stretch
them per the book. Do not pull out the bolts one at a time - at the risk of
warping the head.

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Max Dillon wrote:

> So should I pull one bolt at a time, measure stretch to make sure it is
> still within spec, then torque in the three stages without the ten minute
> wait before the last 90 degree turn, or do I need to keep the wait?
> --
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> '95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
>
>


-- 
OK Don
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Dieselhead]

No, that is not what I am saying at all.  Follow 
the book procedure.  On a normal bolt, the more 
you turn it, the tighter it gets.  On the stretch 
bolts,  as you make the two 90º turns per the 
book , at some point in the turn it no longer 
takes increasing power as the bolt turns.  This 
means you have reached the point of elasticity 
of the bolt. (as designed to do)  This is when 
the bolt stretches.  WHat you feel on the handle 
is a more or less linear increase of force, then 
a levelling off.  On the second turn, the last 
30-40 º of turn is typically stretch.


You only measure the stretch when you take them out of the head.

Or are you asking about retorquing?  I have never 
seen an instruction for retorquing.  If you want 
to retorque one at a time, then yes, I think you 
can pull, measure, then retorque.  I am not sure 
about the 10 min wait.  You could do all of them 
fhe first 90, then wait 10, and do the second 
turn on all and still satisfy the book without 
removing the head.


You could also try a rudimentary Cyl head leakage 
test. through the inj hole or the GP hole to see 
if you can hear any leaks.



So should I pull one bolt at a time, measure 
stretch to make sure it is still within spec, 
then torque in the three stages without the ten 
minute wait before the last 90 degree turn, or 
do I need to keep the wait?

--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


That is a good idea.  You can feel the bolts
yield.  To my thinking, if you get 85 or 95 º of
turn, as long as you feel the bolt yield, it
won't make that much difference.  So I don't
think you have to be that accurate.

Loren



I may try something along those lines, attach a
pointer to the socket and lay a 90 degree guide
on the head.

--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Mitch Haley  wrote:


Max Dillon wrote:

  I thought you had a special wrench to measure the 90 degree

rotations.

Snap-On has one of those.

  >Or you can paint 4 lines or arrows on your socket.
  >


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Max Dillon]

So should I pull one bolt at a time, measure stretch to make sure it is still 
within spec, then torque in the three stages without the ten minute wait before 
the last 90 degree turn, or do I need to keep the wait?
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

>That is a good idea.  You can feel the bolts 
>yield.  To my thinking, if you get 85 or 95 º of 
>turn, as long as you feel the bolt yield, it 
>won't make that much difference.  So I don't 
>think you have to be that accurate.
>
>Loren
>
>
>>I may try something along those lines, attach a 
>>pointer to the socket and lay a 90 degree guide 
>>on the head.
>>
>>--
>>Max Dillon
>>Charleston SC
>>'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
>>
>>Mitch Haley  wrote:
>>
>>>Max Dillon wrote:
  I thought you had a special wrench to measure the 90 degree
>>>rotations.
>>>
>>>Snap-On has one of those.
>>  >Or you can paint 4 lines or arrows on your socket.
>>  >
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Dieselhead]

That is a good idea.  You can feel the bolts 
yield.  To my thinking, if you get 85 or 95 º of 
turn, as long as you feel the bolt yield, it 
won't make that much difference.  So I don't 
think you have to be that accurate.


Loren


I may try something along those lines, attach a 
pointer to the socket and lay a 90 degree guide 
on the head.


--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Mitch Haley  wrote:


Max Dillon wrote:

 I thought you had a special wrench to measure the 90 degree

rotations.

Snap-On has one of those.

 >Or you can paint 4 lines or arrows on your socket.
 >


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Max Dillon]

I may try something along those lines, attach a pointer to the socket and lay a 
90 degree guide on the head.

-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Mitch Haley  wrote:

>Max Dillon wrote:
>> I thought you had a special wrench to measure the 90 degree
>rotations.
>
>Snap-On has one of those.
>Or you can paint 4 lines or arrows on your socket.
>
>___
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Max Dillon]

Haven't driven it very far, didn't see any coolant loss yet.

Head is a #20, was pressure checked by machine shop prior to installation, so I 
would really doubt that, but that is the must common reason for pressurized 
cooling system.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Peter Frederick  wrote:

>Ugh, that means you may have a cracked head.  Not a good deal.
>
>Does it use coolant?  If not, probably not a cracked head.
>
>Peter
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Mitch Haley]

Max Dillon wrote:

I thought you had a special wrench to measure the 90 degree rotations.


Snap-On has one of those.
Or you can paint 4 lines or arrows on your socket.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Max Dillon]

I thought you had a special wrench to measure the 90 degree rotations.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Rolf  wrote:

>I didn't use anything fancy at all. I just used the $40 digital torque
>wrench adapter from HF. I read a recent review about this showing it
>was just as precise (in some cases more) than others.
>
>Looks it on sale!
>http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-torue-adapter-68283.html
>
>Sent from my ASUS Pad
>
>Max Dillon  wrote:
>
>>I only drove it a couple hundred miles and parked it.
>>
>>Sometimes the upper radiator hose would stay pressurized after the
>engine cooled, so I'm suspicious that either the head is bad, the
>gasket is bad, or I didn't properly torque the head bolts.
>>
>>I'd love to borrow that fancy torque wrench that Rolf used, and
>re-torque my head bolts.
>>
>>I'm also concerned about a problem with one of the hydraulic lifters. 
>You may recall that I had to bleed one down to get full valve closure
>for one valve.  When I fixed that, I discovered that the bore for the
>intake valve lifter for the number six cylinder has a problem.  The
>bottom half of the bore is too big, looks like it was eroded away.  The
>lifter can get cocked in the bore, making it very hard to remove.
>>
>>At first I thought that some grit must have contaminated that bore
>during my work, and wore out the bottom half.  After talking with a
>machinist, he explained that is not possible.  If grit had contaminated
>the bore, it would have scored all of the bore equally, not just the
>lower half, and the scoring would look nothing like erosion.  He thinks
>it is a casting flaw, and had probably been there from the factory. 
>I'm worried that eventually the lifter will get cocked so bad it will
>break the camshaft.
>>
>>So I'm going to dive in again soon, work has finally slowed a little
>so I'm not traveling every week, but I'm not too happy about pulling
>the head off again.
>>
>>I really wish there was an oversize repair lifter, do I could machine
>out the bore to restore it and keep this head.
>>
>>-- 
>>Max Dillon
>>Charleston SC
>>'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
>>
>>WILTON  wrote:
>>
>>>Max, what's the latest with your 300TD?  You had a head prob; is that
>>>solved; is it running, etc.?
>>>Is the E300's cooing sys (cabin) OK?
>>>
>>>Wilton
>>>___
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>>>
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>>>http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Peter Frederick]

Ugh, that means you may have a cracked head.  Not a good deal.

Does it use coolant?  If not, probably not a cracked head.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Rolf]

So I actually added a step in between (before the final tightening sequence) 
and gave them an extra while to sit before that last 90*

Heads coming off again so I can pop the pistons out and rehone the cylinders 
and hope I get better compression for cheap. All the fuel my super pump dumps 
in is causing misfires.

-Rolf


Sent from my ASUS Pad

Max Dillon  wrote:

>Peter, 
>
>Yes, I used new head bolts, followed the FSM procedure, but used a breaker bar 
>for the ninety degree turns.
>
>-- 
>Max Dillon
>Charleston SC
>'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
>
>Peter Frederick  wrote:
>
>>You should only need a torque wrench for the first step of head bolt  
>>tightening, to 35 ft/lbs.  After that it's a 90 degree turn, wait 10  
>>min, do another 90 degrees.  If you attempt to use a torque wrench for 
>>
>>final tightening, you will either break the bolts or leave it too  
>>loose, depending on what you try to use for a torque.  These are  
>>stretch bolts, and do NOT have a defined final torque.
>>
>>Not only that, buy my friend Hans strongly recommends tossing them any 
>>
>>time you take the head off and put brand new ones in.  It's fine to  
>>reuse them on the gassers if they aren't stretched too much, but he's  
>>never had a head seal properly for long if you re-use the diesel ones. 
>>
>>Much cheaper than a new head gasket set.
>>
>>Can't help you on the lifter bore, you might want to take it too a  
>>good head shop and see if they can sleeve it for you.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>___
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Rolf]

I didn't use anything fancy at all. I just used the $40 digital torque wrench 
adapter from HF. I read a recent review about this showing it was just as 
precise (in some cases more) than others.

Looks it on sale! http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-torue-adapter-68283.html

Sent from my ASUS Pad

Max Dillon  wrote:

>I only drove it a couple hundred miles and parked it.
>
>Sometimes the upper radiator hose would stay pressurized after the engine 
>cooled, so I'm suspicious that either the head is bad, the gasket is bad, or I 
>didn't properly torque the head bolts.
>
>I'd love to borrow that fancy torque wrench that Rolf used, and re-torque my 
>head bolts.
>
>I'm also concerned about a problem with one of the hydraulic lifters.  You may 
>recall that I had to bleed one down to get full valve closure for one valve.  
>When I fixed that, I discovered that the bore for the intake valve lifter for 
>the number six cylinder has a problem.  The bottom half of the bore is too 
>big, looks like it was eroded away.  The lifter can get cocked in the bore, 
>making it very hard to remove.
>
>At first I thought that some grit must have contaminated that bore during my 
>work, and wore out the bottom half.  After talking with a machinist, he 
>explained that is not possible.  If grit had contaminated the bore, it would 
>have scored all of the bore equally, not just the lower half, and the scoring 
>would look nothing like erosion.  He thinks it is a casting flaw, and had 
>probably been there from the factory.  I'm worried that eventually the lifter 
>will get cocked so bad it will break the camshaft.
>
>So I'm going to dive in again soon, work has finally slowed a little so I'm 
>not traveling every week, but I'm not too happy about pulling the head off 
>again.
>
>I really wish there was an oversize repair lifter, do I could machine out the 
>bore to restore it and keep this head.
>
>-- 
>Max Dillon
>Charleston SC
>'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
>
>WILTON  wrote:
>
>>Max, what's the latest with your 300TD?  You had a head prob; is that
>>solved; is it running, etc.?
>>Is the E300's cooing sys (cabin) OK?
>>
>>Wilton
>>___
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>>
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>>http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Max Dillon]

Peter, 

Yes, I used new head bolts, followed the FSM procedure, but used a breaker bar 
for the ninety degree turns.

-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Peter Frederick  wrote:

>You should only need a torque wrench for the first step of head bolt  
>tightening, to 35 ft/lbs.  After that it's a 90 degree turn, wait 10  
>min, do another 90 degrees.  If you attempt to use a torque wrench for 
>
>final tightening, you will either break the bolts or leave it too  
>loose, depending on what you try to use for a torque.  These are  
>stretch bolts, and do NOT have a defined final torque.
>
>Not only that, buy my friend Hans strongly recommends tossing them any 
>
>time you take the head off and put brand new ones in.  It's fine to  
>reuse them on the gassers if they aren't stretched too much, but he's  
>never had a head seal properly for long if you re-use the diesel ones. 
>
>Much cheaper than a new head gasket set.
>
>Can't help you on the lifter bore, you might want to take it too a  
>good head shop and see if they can sleeve it for you.
>
>Peter
>
>___
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>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Peter Frederick]

You should only need a torque wrench for the first step of head bolt  
tightening, to 35 ft/lbs.  After that it's a 90 degree turn, wait 10  
min, do another 90 degrees.  If you attempt to use a torque wrench for  
final tightening, you will either break the bolts or leave it too  
loose, depending on what you try to use for a torque.  These are  
stretch bolts, and do NOT have a defined final torque.


Not only that, buy my friend Hans strongly recommends tossing them any  
time you take the head off and put brand new ones in.  It's fine to  
reuse them on the gassers if they aren't stretched too much, but he's  
never had a head seal properly for long if you re-use the diesel ones.  
Much cheaper than a new head gasket set.


Can't help you on the lifter bore, you might want to take it too a  
good head shop and see if they can sleeve it for you.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Max Dillon]

I only drove it a couple hundred miles and parked it.

Sometimes the upper radiator hose would stay pressurized after the engine 
cooled, so I'm suspicious that either the head is bad, the gasket is bad, or I 
didn't properly torque the head bolts.

I'd love to borrow that fancy torque wrench that Rolf used, and re-torque my 
head bolts.

I'm also concerned about a problem with one of the hydraulic lifters.  You may 
recall that I had to bleed one down to get full valve closure for one valve.  
When I fixed that, I discovered that the bore for the intake valve lifter for 
the number six cylinder has a problem.  The bottom half of the bore is too big, 
looks like it was eroded away.  The lifter can get cocked in the bore, making 
it very hard to remove.

At first I thought that some grit must have contaminated that bore during my 
work, and wore out the bottom half.  After talking with a machinist, he 
explained that is not possible.  If grit had contaminated the bore, it would 
have scored all of the bore equally, not just the lower half, and the scoring 
would look nothing like erosion.  He thinks it is a casting flaw, and had 
probably been there from the factory.  I'm worried that eventually the lifter 
will get cocked so bad it will break the camshaft.

So I'm going to dive in again soon, work has finally slowed a little so I'm not 
traveling every week, but I'm not too happy about pulling the head off again.

I really wish there was an oversize repair lifter, do I could machine out the 
bore to restore it and keep this head.

-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

WILTON  wrote:

>Max, what's the latest with your 300TD?  You had a head prob; is that
>solved; is it running, etc.?
>Is the E300's cooing sys (cabin) OK?
>
>Wilton
>___
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>
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[MBZ] 87 300TD

[WILTON]

Max, what's the latest with your 300TD?  You had a head prob; is that solved; 
is it running, etc.?
Is the E300's cooing sys (cabin) OK?

Wilton
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD WVO

[Allan Streib]

On Friday, October 14, 2011 11:15 AM, "Randy Bennell"  
wrote:

> I guess it may depend on how careful he was but looking at that tank 
> sitting in the well at the back of the car leads me to believe that 
> spills have probably occurred.

Good steam cleaning with strong detergent would get most of it, if there is any.

Worst case pull out the carpet and replace.  I personally would not knowingly 
buy a car that had ever been run on WVO, but the way this ad was written it 
seemed that the owner was doing things like careful filtering and using a 
proper pre-heated system not just pulling up at the back of McDonald's and 
siphoning grease into the fuel tank.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD WVO

[Randy Bennell]

On 13/10/2011 6:13 PM, Alex Chamberlain wrote:

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Randy Bennell  wrote:


On 13/10/2011 3:26 PM, Allan Streib wrote:

This guy seems to be fairly straight about his car

http://bloomington.craigslist.org/cto/2646704174.html


One could remove and sell the WVO kit but one would NEVER get the smell of
frenchfries out of that interior.

I can think of much worse smells to be permanently stuck with in a car!

Alex



Maybe, but I suggest it would get old in a hurry.

I guess it may depend on how careful he was but looking at that tank 
sitting in the well at the back of the car leads me to believe that 
spills have probably occurred.


Randy

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD WVO

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Randy Bennell  wrote:
>
>
> On 13/10/2011 3:26 PM, Allan Streib wrote:
>>
>> This guy seems to be fairly straight about his car
>>
>> http://bloomington.craigslist.org/cto/2646704174.html
>>
> One could remove and sell the WVO kit but one would NEVER get the smell of
> frenchfries out of that interior.

I can think of much worse smells to be permanently stuck with in a car!

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD WVO

[Randy Bennell]

On 13/10/2011 3:26 PM, Allan Streib wrote:

This guy seems to be fairly straight about his car

http://bloomington.craigslist.org/cto/2646704174.html



One could remove and sell the WVO kit but one would NEVER get the smell 
of frenchfries out of that interior.


Randy

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[MBZ] 87 300TD WVO

[Allan Streib]

This guy seems to be fairly straight about his car

http://bloomington.craigslist.org/cto/2646704174.html


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Peter Frederick]

Test is hard hose after cool down, engine not running.

Requires a good coolant tank, which one should not assume by this age.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Allan Streib]

Max Dillon  writes:

> This car has 330,000 miles, has been using a very small amount of
> coolant for years, but never had the hard upper hose when
> cold.

I've had a question about this test, is this done with the engine
running and cold (i.e. just after a cold start) or is the hose hard with
the engine cold and off (i.e. after cool-down).

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Max Dillon]

Yes, and it seems that there are heads with numbers from 16 on up to 22. 
Attached is a picture of the casting of the part number from the head I just 
took off my wagon. It is a number 14 head, the number is found above the number 
two injector hole.

This car has 330,000 miles, has been using a very small amount of coolant for 
years, but never had the hard upper hose when cold. Coolant was finally 
detected in the engine oil, I'm in the process of replacing with a number 17 
head. On the old head, there are cracks between every intake and exhaust valve 
seat.

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:

OK, so did all 87s come with the 14 head and then later some had them replaced? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:26 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:

Wow, now that is the answer I was looking for! Thank you.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:16 PM, Peter Frederick  wrote:

In the middle of the part number on the head is a two digit code -- the 
original is -14-. the first improved head is -17- and the best version is the 
-22- one.

They crack through from the combustion chamber to the coolant and or oil 
passages, causing the usual results -- overheating, coolant use, etc.

The head gaskets also fail pretty often, between cylinders and from cooling 
passages or oil return to the outside, resulting in leaks. Worst failure is 
between the oil passage across the front of the block -- failure here allows 
oil to enter the #1 cylinder under pressure. If enough gets in there, the #1 
rod gets bent.

All the bits from the -14- head will fit the -22-, with the proviso that it may 
be necessary to machine the pre-chambers to clear the bottom of the large hole 
in the heads. The correct ones, with inclined injectors, are a bit shorter at 
the shoulder, and if they don't fit correctly the pre-chamber will leak 
compression at the upper seal, usually badly enough that the engine will not 
run.

Always use all new head bolts, they often fail when re-used, as I discovered on 
my old 300D.

Peter



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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Dieselhead]

But a 14 head is not a conviction.  All of my 603s have or have had 
14 heads.  My original SDL was the best running of all and had over 
400K on the 14 head.  The last time this came up, the general 
discussion was that if the 14 head survived this long, it would 
probably live out its life.  (Provided it is not overheated)  all the 
rest have 200 to 300 K on them.  I have never had the head off a 60x 
yet.


Look for signs of leaking head gasket and signs of a cracked head.




Wow, now that is the answer I was looking for! Thank you.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:16 PM, Peter Frederick  wrote:

In the middle of the part number on the head is a two digit code -- 
the original is -14-. the first improved head is -17- and the best 
version is the -22- one.


They crack through from the combustion chamber to the coolant and or 
oil passages, causing the usual results -- overheating, coolant use, 
etc.


The head gaskets also fail pretty often, between cylinders and from 
cooling passages or oil return to the outside, resulting in leaks. 
Worst failure is between the oil passage across the front of the 
block -- failure here allows oil to enter the #1 cylinder under 
pressure.  If enough gets in there, the #1 rod gets bent.


All the bits from the -14- head will fit the -22-, with the proviso 
that it may be necessary to machine the pre-chambers to clear the 
bottom of the large hole in the heads.  The correct ones, with 
inclined injectors, are a bit shorter at the shoulder, and if they 
don't fit correctly the pre-chamber will leak compression at the 
upper seal, usually badly enough that the engine will not run.


Always use all new head bolts, they often fail when re-used, as I 
discovered on my old 300D.


Peter



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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Max Dillon]

Yes, that's the right position in the sequence.

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

WILTON  wrote:

Well, it looks like a 4 more than anything else. The opening in the 4 is 
fairly well closed - not a clear point on left side, but I think it's a 4. 
Is it in the right place in the number to denote 14, 16, etc., - 2 digits by 
themselves.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Max Dillon" 
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?


> That's a 14 head, if the digit you're not sure of is a 4.
>
> Max
> -- 
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> WILTON  wrote:
>
> 'Tried to read # on my '87 300D head few minutes ago; 'looks like 603 016
> 1(maybe 4, can't be sure - not clear) etc.; so, is my head a 16 or a 14; I
> suspect it's a 14; 'never heard/known anything about its being changed. No
> prob with it now that I can tell. 123 kmi.
>
> Wilton
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Peter Frederick" 
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?
>
>
>> That engine was sold in various versions (4, 5, and 6 cylinder) from 1984
>> to 1995 or so. The original design was part # 14, and it failed in
>> service enough that by 1993 when the SDL was sold again it had the #17
>> head on it (nine years later(.
>>
>> The #14 was used on all OM603 engines sold in the US in 1986 and 1987,
>> and probably all of them have cracked by now. If failed in normal
>> service, not as a result of overheating, which can crack any of them.
>>
>> I'm not sure which one I had on the old 300D, the current car has had it
>> replaced with a newer version.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>_

>
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>>
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Peter Frederick]

Some of them last forever, some cracked in 50k miles.  You have a  
good one -- just don't ever let it get really hot, does them in every  
time.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[WILTON]

'Just looked again.  Head on my 87 300D is highly likely a 14; head on my 91 
350SDL is clearly a 17.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "WILTON" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?


Well, it looks like a 4 more than anything else.  The opening in the 4 is 
fairly well closed - not a clear point on left side, but I think it's a 4. 
Is it in the right place in the number to denote 14, 16, etc., - 2 digits 
by themselves.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Max Dillon" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?



That's a 14 head, if the digit you're not sure of is a 4.

Max
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

WILTON  wrote:

'Tried to read # on my '87 300D head few minutes ago; 'looks like 603 016
1(maybe 4, can't be sure - not clear) etc.; so, is my head a 16 or a 14; 
I
suspect it's a 14; 'never heard/known anything about its being changed. 
No

prob with it now that I can tell. 123 kmi.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?


That engine was sold in various versions (4, 5, and 6 cylinder) from 
1984

to 1995 or so. The original design was part # 14, and it failed in
service enough that by 1993 when the SDL was sold again it had the #17
head on it (nine years later(.

The #14 was used on all OM603 engines sold in the US in 1986 and 1987,
and probably all of them have cracked by now. If failed in normal
service, not as a result of overheating, which can crack any of them.

I'm not sure which one I had on the old 300D, the current car has had it
replaced with a newer version.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[WILTON]

Well, it looks like a 4 more than anything else.  The opening in the 4 is 
fairly well closed - not a clear point on left side, but I think it's a 4. 
Is it in the right place in the number to denote 14, 16, etc., - 2 digits by 
themselves.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Max Dillon" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?



That's a 14 head, if the digit you're not sure of is a 4.

Max
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

WILTON  wrote:

'Tried to read # on my '87 300D head few minutes ago; 'looks like 603 016
1(maybe 4, can't be sure - not clear) etc.; so, is my head a 16 or a 14; I
suspect it's a 14; 'never heard/known anything about its being changed. No
prob with it now that I can tell. 123 kmi.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?



That engine was sold in various versions (4, 5, and 6 cylinder) from 1984
to 1995 or so. The original design was part # 14, and it failed in
service enough that by 1993 when the SDL was sold again it had the #17
head on it (nine years later(.

The #14 was used on all OM603 engines sold in the US in 1986 and 1987,
and probably all of them have cracked by now. If failed in normal
service, not as a result of overheating, which can crack any of them.

I'm not sure which one I had on the old 300D, the current car has had it
replaced with a newer version.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Max Dillon]

That's a 14 head, if the digit you're not sure of is a 4.

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

WILTON  wrote:

'Tried to read # on my '87 300D head few minutes ago; 'looks like 603 016 
1(maybe 4, can't be sure - not clear) etc.; so, is my head a 16 or a 14; I 
suspect it's a 14; 'never heard/known anything about its being changed. No 
prob with it now that I can tell. 123 kmi.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" 
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?


> That engine was sold in various versions (4, 5, and 6 cylinder) from 1984 
> to 1995 or so. The original design was part # 14, and it failed in 
> service enough that by 1993 when the SDL was sold again it had the #17 
> head on it (nine years later(.
>
> The #14 was used on all OM603 engines sold in the US in 1986 and 1987, 
> and probably all of them have cracked by now. If failed in normal 
> service, not as a result of overheating, which can crack any of them.
>
> I'm not sure which one I had on the old 300D, the current car has had it 
> replaced with a newer version.
>
> Peter
>
>_

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[WILTON]

'Tried to read # on my '87 300D head few minutes ago; 'looks like 603 016 
1(maybe 4, can't be sure - not clear) etc.; so, is my head a 16 or a 14; I 
suspect it's a 14; 'never heard/known anything about its being changed.  No 
prob with it now that I can tell.  123 kmi.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?


That engine was sold in various versions (4, 5, and 6 cylinder) from  1984 
to 1995 or so.  The original design was part # 14, and it failed  in 
service enough that by 1993 when the SDL was sold again it had the  #17 
head on it (nine years later(.


The #14 was used on all OM603 engines sold in the US in 1986 and  1987, 
and probably all of them have cracked by now.  If failed in  normal 
service, not as a result of overheating, which can crack any  of them.


I'm not sure which one I had on the old 300D, the current car has had  it 
replaced with a newer version.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[WILTON]

Evapectomy on '87 300D built in Oct '86.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Max Dillon" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?


No, I think that is the later 124s which had weak evaporators and wiring 
harnesses that disintegrate. 1994 & 1995 I think, but now I'm remembering 
that Wilton replaced one for one of his cars Which one was that 
Wilton?


Max
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Mitch Haley  wrote:

OK Don wrote:
Bottom line, if I didn't see signs of a cracked head, I would not be 
afraid

of the car.



... but would prefer to see evidence of a recent evaporator replacement.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Michael Canfield]

Isn't this the one with a picture of a head gasket amongst other parts in
the back?  If there is no head problem why buy the parts?(unless you find a
deal on them or something like that.)

Worth asking about right?  Maybe they know it has an early head and bought
parts just in case?

Mike
On Jul 31, 2011 10:06 AM, "Rolf"  wrote:
> Chances are if the car has made it this far you are not going to have
> head problems.
>
> -Rolf
>
> On 7/30/2011 7:26 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote:
>> Isn't their some concern with the 87 diesels? A certain problematic head
or something?
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Rolf]

Chances are if the car has made it this far you are not going to have 
head problems.


-Rolf

On 7/30/2011 7:26 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote:

Isn't their some concern with the 87 diesels? A certain problematic head or 
something?
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Peter Frederick]

Evaporator failures ran 15-30%, I believe (two out of three at our  
house), probably due to the use of copper pipes swagged onto aluminum  
cores.  They crack at the junctions between the pipes and core as a  
general rule, although other failures are possible.


The new ones are all aluminum, wonder of wonders, and don't crack  
that I know of.


BIG job -- not really difficult, but very fiddlesome (dash has to  
come out completely) and very time consuming.  Book time per MB is 16  
hours, so the first one is more likely 20 for the average DIY type.   
Took me three days.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Mitch Haley]

Max Dillon wrote:

No, I think that is the later 124s which had weak evaporators and wiring harnesses 
that disintegrate. 1994 & 1995 I think, but now I'm remembering that Wilton 
replaced one for one of his cars Which one was that Wilton?
  


Wilton has a very well preserved 1987 sedan, he looked for a long time 
and bought the best one he found.

The evap was upgraded over the years, but I don't know specifics.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Max Dillon]

No, I think that is the later 124s which had weak evaporators and wiring 
harnesses that disintegrate. 1994 & 1995 I think, but now I'm remembering that 
Wilton replaced one for one of his cars Which one was that Wilton?

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Mitch Haley  wrote:

OK Don wrote:
> Bottom line, if I didn't see signs of a cracked head, I would not be afraid
> of the car.


... but would prefer to see evidence of a recent evaporator replacement.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Mitch Haley]

OK Don wrote:

Bottom line, if I didn't see signs of a cracked head, I would not be afraid
of the car.



... but would prefer to see evidence of a recent evaporator replacement.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Michael Canfield]

Yes, you got it.

Mike
On Jul 30, 2011 10:01 PM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
> Michael Canfield wrote:
>> Not that wagon. The newer ones, I forget the model but someone was
selling
>> one here not long ago I think.
>
> Ohh, you think the 210 wagon looks like a y2k Escort, not that a 124 wagon
looks
> like a 1981 Escort. I guess the round headlights and hood are sort of
similar.
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:

Not that wagon.  The newer ones, I forget the model but someone was selling
one here not long ago I think.


Ohh, you think the 210 wagon looks like a y2k Escort, not that a 124 wagon looks 
like a 1981 Escort. I guess the round headlights and hood are sort of similar.


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Michael Canfield]

The Escort looking ones are like the e series wagon Kleb is going to look
at.

Mike
On Jul 30, 2011 8:05 PM, "Alex Chamberlain"  wrote:
> Well, the wagons look like a Ford Escort, according to someone here.
>
>
>
> On 7/30/11, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> Isn't their some concern with the 87 diesels? A certain problematic head
or
>> something?
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>
> --
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Peter Frederick]

That engine was sold in various versions (4, 5, and 6 cylinder) from  
1984 to 1995 or so.  The original design was part # 14, and it failed  
in service enough that by 1993 when the SDL was sold again it had the  
#17 head on it (nine years later(.


The #14 was used on all OM603 engines sold in the US in 1986 and  
1987, and probably all of them have cracked by now.  If failed in  
normal service, not as a result of overheating, which can crack any  
of them.


I'm not sure which one I had on the old 300D, the current car has had  
it replaced with a newer version.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[OK Don]

Yes. The later heads were also found on later cars - the 350SDL for example.

On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote:

> OK, so did all 87s come with the 14 head and then later some had them
> replaced?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:26 PM, Dimitri Seretakis 
> wrote:
>
> Wow, now that is the answer I was looking for! Thank you.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:16 PM, Peter Frederick  wrote:
>
> In the middle of the part number on the head is a two digit code -- the
> original is -14-. the first improved head is -17- and the best version is
> the -22- one.
>
> They crack through from the combustion chamber to the coolant and or oil
> passages, causing the usual results -- overheating, coolant use, etc.
>
> The head gaskets also fail pretty often, between cylinders and from cooling
> passages or oil return to the outside, resulting in leaks.  Worst failure is
> between the oil passage across the front of the block -- failure here allows
> oil to enter the #1 cylinder under pressure.  If enough gets in there, the
> #1 rod gets bent.
>
> All the bits from the -14- head will fit the -22-, with the proviso that it
> may be necessary to machine the pre-chambers to clear the bottom of the
> large hole in the heads.  The correct ones, with inclined injectors, are a
> bit shorter at the shoulder, and if they don't fit correctly the pre-chamber
> will leak compression at the upper seal, usually badly enough that the
> engine will not run.
>
> Always use all new head bolts, they often fail when re-used, as I
> discovered on my old 300D.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> ___
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> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>
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>
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>
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>



-- 
OK Don
2001 ML320
1992 300D 2.5T
1990 300D 2.5T
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Dimitri Seretakis]

OK, so did all 87s come with the 14 head and then later some had them replaced? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:26 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:

Wow, now that is the answer I was looking for! Thank you.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:16 PM, Peter Frederick  wrote:

In the middle of the part number on the head is a two digit code -- the 
original is -14-. the first improved head is -17- and the best version is the 
-22- one.

They crack through from the combustion chamber to the coolant and or oil 
passages, causing the usual results -- overheating, coolant use, etc.

The head gaskets also fail pretty often, between cylinders and from cooling 
passages or oil return to the outside, resulting in leaks.  Worst failure is 
between the oil passage across the front of the block -- failure here allows 
oil to enter the #1 cylinder under pressure.  If enough gets in there, the #1 
rod gets bent.

All the bits from the -14- head will fit the -22-, with the proviso that it may 
be necessary to machine the pre-chambers to clear the bottom of the large hole 
in the heads.  The correct ones, with inclined injectors, are a bit shorter at 
the shoulder, and if they don't fit correctly the pre-chamber will leak 
compression at the upper seal, usually badly enough that the engine will not 
run.

Always use all new head bolts, they often fail when re-used, as I discovered on 
my old 300D.

Peter



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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[OK Don]

Marshall, or someone else, posited that they defective #14 heads have all
failed and been replaced by now. While not absolute, and overheating will
still crack good heads, I think there might be some merit to that statement.
The '87 SDL I had still had the original head at 200,000 miles and showed no
signs of being cracked.
A hard upper radiator hose on a cold engine is one possible indication of a
crackede head, though not the only one.
Bottom line, if I didn't see signs of a cracked head, I would not be afraid
of the car.
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:

> In the middle of the part number on the head is a two digit code -- the
> original is -14-. the first improved head is -17- and the best version is
> the -22- one.
>
> They crack through from the combustion chamber to the coolant and or oil
> passages, causing the usual results -- overheating, coolant use, etc.
>
> The head gaskets also fail pretty often, between cylinders and from cooling
> passages or oil return to the outside, resulting in leaks.  Worst failure is
> between the oil passage across the front of the block -- failure here allows
> oil to enter the #1 cylinder under pressure.  If enough gets in there, the
> #1 rod gets bent.
>
> All the bits from the -14- head will fit the -22-, with the proviso that it
> may be necessary to machine the pre-chambers to clear the bottom of the
> large hole in the heads.  The correct ones, with inclined injectors, are a
> bit shorter at the shoulder, and if they don't fit correctly the pre-chamber
> will leak compression at the upper seal, usually badly enough that the
> engine will not run.
>
> Always use all new head bolts, they often fail when re-used, as I
> discovered on my old 300D.
>
>
> Peter
>



-- 
OK Don
2001 ML320
1992 300D 2.5T
1990 300D 2.5T
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Michael Canfield]

Not that wagon.  The newer ones, I forget the model but someone was selling
one here not long ago I think.

Mike
On Jul 30, 2011 8:05 PM, "Alex Chamberlain"  wrote:
> Well, the wagons look like a Ford Escort, according to someone here.
>
>
>
> On 7/30/11, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> Isn't their some concern with the 87 diesels? A certain problematic head
or
>> something?
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>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Dimitri Seretakis]

Wow, now that is the answer I was looking for! Thank you.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:16 PM, Peter Frederick  wrote:

In the middle of the part number on the head is a two digit code -- the 
original is -14-. the first improved head is -17- and the best version is the 
-22- one.

They crack through from the combustion chamber to the coolant and or oil 
passages, causing the usual results -- overheating, coolant use, etc.

The head gaskets also fail pretty often, between cylinders and from cooling 
passages or oil return to the outside, resulting in leaks.  Worst failure is 
between the oil passage across the front of the block -- failure here allows 
oil to enter the #1 cylinder under pressure.  If enough gets in there, the #1 
rod gets bent.

All the bits from the -14- head will fit the -22-, with the proviso that it may 
be necessary to machine the pre-chambers to clear the bottom of the large hole 
in the heads.  The correct ones, with inclined injectors, are a bit shorter at 
the shoulder, and if they don't fit correctly the pre-chamber will leak 
compression at the upper seal, usually badly enough that the engine will not 
run.

Always use all new head bolts, they often fail when re-used, as I discovered on 
my old 300D.

Peter



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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Peter Frederick]

In the middle of the part number on the head is a two digit code --  
the original is -14-. the first improved head is -17- and the best  
version is the -22- one.


They crack through from the combustion chamber to the coolant and or  
oil passages, causing the usual results -- overheating, coolant use,  
etc.


The head gaskets also fail pretty often, between cylinders and from  
cooling passages or oil return to the outside, resulting in leaks.   
Worst failure is between the oil passage across the front of the  
block -- failure here allows oil to enter the #1 cylinder under  
pressure.  If enough gets in there, the #1 rod gets bent.


All the bits from the -14- head will fit the -22-, with the proviso  
that it may be necessary to machine the pre-chambers to clear the  
bottom of the large hole in the heads.  The correct ones, with  
inclined injectors, are a bit shorter at the shoulder, and if they  
don't fit correctly the pre-chamber will leak compression at the  
upper seal, usually badly enough that the engine will not run.


Always use all new head bolts, they often fail when re-used, as I  
discovered on my old 300D.


Peter



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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Dimitri Seretakis]

Actually I think they're quite nice looking. It's the mechanicals I'm concerned 
about.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Alex Chamberlain  wrote:

Well, the wagons look like a Ford Escort, according to someone here.



On 7/30/11, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
Isn't their some concern with the 87 diesels? A certain problematic head or
something?
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-- 
Sent from my mobile device

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Alex Chamberlain]

Well, the wagons look like a Ford Escort, according to someone here.



On 7/30/11, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> Isn't their some concern with the 87 diesels? A certain problematic head or
> something?
> ___
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-- 
Sent from my mobile device

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Dimitri Seretakis]

My brother found one he's interested in. Is there a specific head to look out 
for? What is the problem with the heads?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 7:28 PM, Peter Frederick  wrote:

The head is easily replaced.  Else a standard W124 -- mine has about 350,000 
miles on it and is doing pretty well for it's age!

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Peter Frederick]

The head is easily replaced.  Else a standard W124 -- mine has about  
350,000 miles on it and is doing pretty well for it's age!


Peter

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[MBZ] 87 300TD is this an OK car?

[Dimitri Seretakis]

Isn't their some concern with the 87 diesels? A certain problematic head or 
something? 
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Re: [MBZ] '87 300TD head removal

[Max Dillon]

Mitch, Thanks!  A little research in the service manuals shows that the same 
tool is used for both OM617 and OM603 engines, so I shall procure the 8x1.25 
grade 12.9 bolt and proceed.  Still need to find the time for all this work 
though...

 Very respectfully,
/s/
Max Dillon
'87 300TD 334k miles
'95 E300 280k miles
'73 Balboa 20
Charleston SC





From: Mitch Haley 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 2:05:35 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] '87 300TD head removal

Max Dillon wrote:
> I don't have a nice assortment to select from, so I'll need to go buy 
>something.  You think it could be between 4, 5 and 6mm?

Oops, it looks like I guessed small. I thought the threaded hole was in the 
pin, 
but it's only in the head of the pin, and is pretty large. Somebody made a 
puller for a 617 with an 8x1.25 bolt. Looks like you run a long bolt into the 
tensioner pin until it bottoms out, then run a nut down on the bolt to extract.
One guy had an 8.8 bolt fail, so he bought a grade 12.9 for more pull before 
failure.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=288848

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300TD head removal

[Mitch Haley]

Max Dillon wrote:
I don't have a nice assortment to select from, so I'll need to go buy 
something.  You think it could be between 4, 5 and 6mm?


Oops, it looks like I guessed small. I thought the threaded hole was in the pin, 
but it's only in the head of the pin, and is pretty large. Somebody made a 
puller for a 617 with an 8x1.25 bolt. Looks like you run a long bolt into the 
tensioner pin until it bottoms out, then run a nut down on the bolt to extract.
One guy had an 8.8 bolt fail, so he bought a grade 12.9 for more pull before 
failure.


http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=288848

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300TD head removal

[Max Dillon]

I don't have a nice assortment to select from, so I'll need to go buy 
something.  You think it could be between 4, 5 and 6mm?

 Very respectfully,
/s/
Max Dillon
'87 300TD 334k miles
'95 E300 280k miles
'73 Balboa 20
Charleston SC





From: Mitch Haley 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:52:28 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] '87 300TD head removal

Max Dillon wrote:
> Dieselvolk,
> 
> Can anyone provide the specifications for the shop-made slide rail pin 
> pulling 
>tool?  I think it is supposed to be a bolt 6mm in diameter with a nut and 
>stack 
>of washer, but how long, how deep a washer stack, and are the threads 6mm x1.0 
>or some other dimension?

I wouldn't sweat the details too much (but I've got an assortment of 4, 5, and 
6mm bolts laying around already). Just find a bolt that threads in smoothly, 
stick a washer and a socket over it, make sure it goes in 4 threads before it 
gets tight, and crank down on it until you meet resistance or it comes out. 
(you 
don't want to bottom out on the threads and then keep turning it) If you 
bottomed out, unscrew it and start over with a longer socket or more washers.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] '87 300TD head removal

[Mitch Haley]

Max Dillon wrote:

Dieselvolk,

Can anyone provide the specifications for the shop-made slide rail pin pulling 
tool?  I think it is supposed to be a bolt 6mm in diameter with a nut and stack 
of washer, but how long, how deep a washer stack, and are the threads 6mm x1.0 
or some other dimension?


I wouldn't sweat the details too much (but I've got an assortment of 4, 5, and 
6mm bolts laying around already). Just find a bolt that threads in smoothly, 
stick a washer and a socket over it, make sure it goes in 4 threads before it 
gets tight, and crank down on it until you meet resistance or it comes out. (you 
don't want to bottom out on the threads and then keep turning it) If you 
bottomed out, unscrew it and start over with a longer socket or more washers.


Mitch.

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[MBZ] '87 300TD head removal

[Max Dillon]

Dieselvolk,

Can anyone provide the specifications for the shop-made slide rail pin pulling 
tool?  I think it is supposed to be a bolt 6mm in diameter with a nut and stack 
of washer, but how long, how deep a washer stack, and are the threads 6mm x1.0 
or some other dimension?

 Very respectfully,
/s/
Max Dillon
'87 300TD 334k miles
'95 E300 280k miles
'73 Balboa 20
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD, how to get rear hatch open

[Peter Frederick]

Apply pressure to the lock line, that should pop it to the unlock  
position.

Peter


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[MBZ] 87 300TD, how to get rear hatch open

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

On my 87 300TD, cant get the hatch open.  IIRC, I dont think they key 
will turn, so Im thinking maybe its stuck in the lock position.  Anybody 
have a way of getting the hatch open?  Anybody BTDT?
-- 
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 89 560SEL,
  89 260E, 87 300SDL, 86 560SL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D,
  76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250, 66 220SEb
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[R A Bennell]

Same old story Andrew. Rust never ends and putting $ into an old car is seldom 
profitable. If you are already
thinking you want something else then it is likely not a good plan to spend 
more on your existing car - unless you
are certain you will increase its value to where you will at least break even 
and hopefully even profit somewhat.

Randy who has the same issues with a 4Runner

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of andrew strasfogel
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 11:22 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD


I wonder if I should sell my 1983 (282 K miles) 300TD, which needs about
$1500 in rust repair, or should I fix it up and keep it.  I would like an 87
300TD if I could find a nice one that doesn't cost the earth.  I imagine I
could get between $1500 and $2K for my wagon "as is".  Anybody willing to
impart some advice?

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Frederick W Moir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Mitch, et al.
> I would love to take it for a drive, but I have no budget for another
> car right now. If anyone is seriously interested, it is in the next
> town, close by, I could take pics, and kick tyres.
> Fred Moir
> Lynn MA
>
> > > http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/car/601340048.html
> >
> >If you can take it for a test drive w/o the owner, unplug the fuse
> >that drives the kickdown circuit and see what happens.
>
>
>


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[andrew strasfogel]

I wonder if I should sell my 1983 (282 K miles) 300TD, which needs about
$1500 in rust repair, or should I fix it up and keep it.  I would like an 87
300TD if I could find a nice one that doesn't cost the earth.  I imagine I
could get between $1500 and $2K for my wagon "as is".  Anybody willing to
impart some advice?

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Frederick W Moir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Mitch, et al.
> I would love to take it for a drive, but I have no budget for another
> car right now. If anyone is seriously interested, it is in the next
> town, close by, I could take pics, and kick tyres.
> Fred Moir
> Lynn MA
>
> > > http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/car/601340048.html
> >
> >If you can take it for a test drive w/o the owner, unplug the fuse
> >that drives the kickdown circuit and see what happens.
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Frederick W Moir]

Mitch, et al.
I would love to take it for a drive, but I have no budget for another 
car right now. If anyone is seriously interested, it is in the next 
town, close by, I could take pics, and kick tyres.
Fred Moir
Lynn MA

> > http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/car/601340048.html
>
>If you can take it for a test drive w/o the owner, unplug the fuse
>that drives the kickdown circuit and see what happens.


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Mitch Haley]

Frederick W Moir wrote:
> 
> Needs trans.
> http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/car/601340048.html

If you can take it for a test drive w/o the owner, unplug the fuse
that drives the kickdown circuit and see what happens.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[andrew strasfogel]

I bet that's not all it needs...

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Alex Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 8:28 AM, Frederick W Moir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >  Needs trans.
> >  http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/car/601340048.html
> >
>
> Wow, that dark blue looks great with the 16" 210 wheels.  Classy.
>
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo et al.
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300TD

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 8:28 AM, Frederick W Moir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Needs trans.
>  http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/car/601340048.html
>

Wow, that dark blue looks great with the 16" 210 wheels.  Classy.

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo et al.

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[MBZ] 87 300TD

[Frederick W Moir]

Needs trans.
http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/car/601340048.html
  No Afililliation, not mine (Damm!)
Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Dieselitis Maximus 


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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Mitch Haley]

carbucks wrote:
> 
> Sounds like you got a lemon. Sold both my 2000 Jetta TDI and 2004 Golf
> TDI after a couple of years of ownership and no maintenance hassle for
> just slightly below what I paid for them new (exempting taxes).

That's exactly my problem with them. Asking prices for 3-4 year old
cars with 80-100k on them look like what I might be willing to pay
for a new car.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

They are WAY overpriced.  Better off just buying a 300TE instead and 
saving alot of cash.

carbucks wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> While I've been happy with my 85 and 83 300SDs, they don't suit our 
> lifestyle with the dog. Been researching the 87 300td. Looking for some 
> list wisdom on fair market value for one in good to excellent condition. 
> Here's what I've discovered so far.
> 
> NADA ranges from $3950 to $8600
> Original MSRP: $42,500
> 
>   Low Retail 
> 
>  
>   Average Retail Value 
> 
>  
>   High Retail 
> 
>  
> 
> Base Price$3,950  $5,150  $8,600
> TOTAL PRICE   $3,950  $5,150 
> *
>  
>   $8,600
> 
> 
> Ebay Buy Now prices are currently in the $10 000 range.
> 
> Autotrader and cars.com listed prices range from $7000 to $13500
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
>  
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-- 
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic,
  91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D,
  76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Allan Streib]

carbucks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> The air condition compressor on the 83 is squealing. That's not 
> going to be a lot of fun. Going to have to upgrade the AC to the newer 
> environmental standards.

Why?  Keep it R12, if you don't want to spend the money on R12
refrigerant there are compatible substitutes.

If you convert it to R134A you'll be in for more headaches, and poor
cooling to boot.

> Thanks to all for the interaction. Really helped clarify my next
> steps.  Given the rising cost of fuel and the thousands of miles we
> put on in a month, a car that gets twice the fuel mileage and saves
> a thousand or more dollars a year is the way I have to go.

Don't forget to figure in interest on any financing, and insurance.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Curt Raymond]

I've never ridden in a Jetta older than 4 years old.
I've never ridden in a Jetta that was bought used.
I've never ridden in a Jetta with working A/C.

That A/C in my 190D worked until the charge leaked out and I decided I liked 
having the money more than I liked having A/C.

-Curt

Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:19:34 -0800
From: Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 04:08:45PM -0500, Allan Streib wrote:
> Zeitgeist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Price a set of rear SLS legs, or #22 head, or evaporator R&R for
 the
> > S124.  My '96 Passat tdi was a rock-solid reliable, economical and
> > fun to drive car.  Much cheaper to keep than my Mercedes--damn, my
> > Vanagon is even a helluva lot cheaper to run than the TD.  I think
 I
> > keep the Merc for purely sentimental reasons, at this point.
> 
> Maybe the later models are more expensive... My W123 is hands-down
 the
> cheapest car I've ever owned, in cost-of-ownership terms.  I do most
> of my own work and buy the parts from Rusty though.  I recently
 bought
> a Vanagon too, and I like it, but its engineering is cheap and
> amateurish compared to the W123 -- or even compared to my former
 W110.

Having W123, W124, W201, and an A2 jetta, the jetta blows them all away
 in
terms of how cheap it is to keep on the road. The W123 was a neglected
 car,
so it's probably not a fair comparison. The W124 and S124 were far FAR
 more
expensive than them all.

No doubt, the mercedes is a better put together car, but you pay the
 price
for it.

   
-
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[carbucks]

Sounds like you got a lemon. Sold both my 2000 Jetta TDI and 2004 Golf 
TDI after a couple of years of ownership and no maintenance hassle for 
just slightly below what I paid for them new (exempting taxes).

With my new 2000 Jetta, all maintenance was covered under the warranty. 
With the 2004 Golf, they charged (too much) for oil changes. Now that 
I'm not so busy with work, I'd do those myself. Fortunately, just as 
there are for M-Bs, third party Internet suppliers for VW really save 
you a bundle.

I spend way more time on the 300SDs fiddling with them. The latest is 
the heater hose that the dealer wants $125 for. Fortunately the 
suppliers everyone on this list knows about has it for a small fraction 
of that. Going to have to remove some electronics on the '85 to get at 
that. The air condition compressor on the 83 is squealing. That's not 
going to be a lot of fun. Going to have to upgrade the AC to the newer 
environmental standards.

Thanks to all for the interaction. Really helped clarify my next steps. 
Given the rising cost of fuel and the thousands of miles we put on in a 
month, a car that gets twice the fuel mileage and saves a thousand or 
more dollars a year is the way I have to go.

Anyone interested in purchasing two west coast solid body 300SDs, one an 
83 with a rebuilt engine and the other an 85 (w/ABS brakes)? The next 
question is what should I ask for them?

Martin

David Bruckmann wrote:
> Yes, the Golf/Jetta TDI gets good fuel economy BUT you'll realise that a 
> 20-y/o MB is a BARGAIN the first time you pay $100 for a set of front brake 
> pads for the VW, or when you replace the $300 MAF sensor for the 3rd or 4th 
> time, or when it needs yet ANOTHER window lifter, or when it won't start 
> because the intake manifold is clogged with soot, or when you get the bill 
> from the chiropractor b/c the seats are HORRIBLE, or when the rear brake pads 
> wear out AGAIN after only 20k miles, or when the coolant level sensor seal 
> fails and coolant is pumped into your wiring harness destroying your entire 
> electrical system, etc etc.
>
> Idiotically, I gave up my 1979 300TD for a new 2002 Golf TDI. It took me 
> about a week to start hating it, and almost two years to ditch it -- for a 
> 1984 300TD.
>
> D.
>
>   
>> On Feb 13, 2008 2:16 PM, carbucks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks, John. Nice looking TD.
>>>
>>> Fuel is the other cost I'm factoring in. According to
>>> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/3565.shtml the 300td will get up
>>> to 25 mpg and for 15000 annual miles @ $3/gal cost you $2239 per year.
>>>
>>> For a few thousand more, I can pick up a Jetta Wagon TDI  ($mid-teens)
>>> which according to
>>> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=19905 gets up to 42
>>> mpg and costs $1407 per year.
>>>
>>> So paying $10k for a twenty plus year old car that only gets about half
>>> the fuel mileage of a five year old Jetta does not add up. Factor in
>>> rising fuel costs as well as the higher costs to maintain the Benz and
>>> the arithmetic is even less in favor of the Benz.
>>>
>>> Unless, of course, I can find one like yours. :-)
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>   
>
>   
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[David Bruckmann]

Yes, the Golf/Jetta TDI gets good fuel economy BUT you'll realise that a 20-y/o 
MB is a BARGAIN the first time you pay $100 for a set of front brake pads for 
the VW, or when you replace the $300 MAF sensor for the 3rd or 4th time, or 
when it needs yet ANOTHER window lifter, or when it won't start because the 
intake manifold is clogged with soot, or when you get the bill from the 
chiropractor b/c the seats are HORRIBLE, or when the rear brake pads wear out 
AGAIN after only 20k miles, or when the coolant level sensor seal fails and 
coolant is pumped into your wiring harness destroying your entire electrical 
system, etc etc.

Idiotically, I gave up my 1979 300TD for a new 2002 Golf TDI. It took me about 
a week to start hating it, and almost two years to ditch it -- for a 1984 300TD.

D.

>On Feb 13, 2008 2:16 PM, carbucks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Thanks, John. Nice looking TD.
>>
>> Fuel is the other cost I'm factoring in. According to
>> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/3565.shtml the 300td will get up
>> to 25 mpg and for 15000 annual miles @ $3/gal cost you $2239 per year.
>>
>> For a few thousand more, I can pick up a Jetta Wagon TDI  ($mid-teens)
>> which according to
>> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=19905 gets up to 42
>> mpg and costs $1407 per year.
>>
>> So paying $10k for a twenty plus year old car that only gets about half
>> the fuel mileage of a five year old Jetta does not add up. Factor in
>> rising fuel costs as well as the higher costs to maintain the Benz and
>> the arithmetic is even less in favor of the Benz.
>>
>> Unless, of course, I can find one like yours. :-)
>>
>> Martin

-- 
David Bruckmann, Palo Alto, CA
Current Reality:
1970 Citroen DS21 Pallas (170,000 km) "Goettin"
1972 Mercedes-Benz 280 SEL 4.5 (150,000 km) "Blauer Engel"
1976 Citroen 2CV6 (145,000 km) "Piaf"  http://dolly.bruckmann.com/
1979 Mercedes-Benz 300D (390,000 km) "Brown Betty"
Shady Past:
1971 Citroen DS21 Pallas (137,000km), 1972 Citroen DS21 Pallas (502,000km)
1978 Mercedes-Benz 300D (1,200,000 km or thereabouts) "Sieglinde"
1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD non-turbo (260,000 km)  "Diva"
1981 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston (120,000km), 1988 Merkur XR4Ti (209,000km)
1981 Peugeot 505 GRD (350,000km), 1984 MB 300TD (385,000 km) "Gertraud"
1985 Toyota Camry "The Slamry" (330,000km) 1986 Renault 9 1.7L (155,000 km)
2002 VW Golf GLS TDI "The Hated Golf" (74,000 km)

--

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Feb 13, 2008 3:05 PM, carbucks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've had both a 2000 Jetta TDI and a 2004 Golf TDI . Much preferred the
> Golf. Bought it new in the east (cheaper there) and drove it across the
> country. In 2004 they got a bump in horsepower. That engine has about
> the same amount of torque as the VR6.
>
> My wife drove it 200 km a day five days a week and found it to be far
> more comfortable than either of my 300SDs.

Well, I suppose comfort is a matter of taste... but I've found
Mercedes seats to be more comfortable than any other car's by far,
when in good shape (springs not sprung and padding not compressed).
The problem is that you have to maintain them, like the rest of the
car, and most people don't.  VW-type seats, on the other hand (foam
over a stiff metal bucket) are comfortable until the foam collapses,
and then feel like a church pew---at which point they are basically
not fixable unless the entire seat is rebuilt from scratch by a
competent upholsterer.

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo et al.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[carbucks]

That's why I'm looking at a Jetta wagon TDI that's a few years old. The 
largest part of the depreciation is gone and it will be good for another 
ten years or so. By that time I'll have saved enough on fuel (over the 
Benz) to buy another one.

I have an '82 Jetta that I bought brand new. At 300k+ the body and 
original engine are still good, though I had to replace the head at 80K 
because I burned the valves following the idiot upshift light (remember 
those?) . However, it was the electrics that consigned it to a moldering 
death in my yard. The electrics did get better in 83. I have an 83 Jetta 
Turbo diesel that still going strong.

Martin

Allan Streib wrote:
> Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>   
>> Having W123, W124, W201, and an A2 jetta, the jetta blows them all
>> away in terms of how cheap it is to keep on the road. The W123 was a
>> neglected car, so it's probably not a fair comparison. The W124 and
>> S124 were far FAR more expensive than them all.
>> 
>
> I had an A2 Jetta as well, and agree it was pretty cheap as far as
> repairs and maintenance go, but I bought it new at about 4 times what
> I paid for my 300D, and I financed it.  So that killed the cost of
> ownership numbers for me.  I'm pretty sure a 20 year old Jetta would
> have cost me more than my W123 to own, they just are not built to last
> that long.
>
> Allan
>   
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Kevin]

Another possibility, depending on where you live, is to get one with some 
rust. The rust drops the value of the car GREATLY, and if you're in an area
where a rusty car won't really get worse, it's fine for a driver. My 85 190D
was such a car, and was really a bargain for what it was. What got expensive
on that car was rebuilding the suspension on it when it got close to 200k
miles, followed by a busted ball joint in the front. Granted, I did most of
the work myself, but there were a LOT of parts I had to replace on it while
doing the job. It was a five speed, so it was worth the time and money, or so
I told myself.

I do still have the two 87s, one D that got sideswiped and one rusty TD that
needs a head/head gasket, that I've been toying with letting go, but unless
you're somewhat near Sacramento, CA, the logistics might be a little screwy.
And no, I'm not letting them go for $500 for the pair (or even $500 each),
so all you bottomfeeders out there, don't try. ;)

On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 11:16:42AM -0800, carbucks wrote:
> So paying $10k for a twenty plus year old car that only gets about half 
> the fuel mileage of a five year old Jetta does not add up. Factor in 
> rising fuel costs as well as the higher costs to maintain the Benz and 
> the arithmetic is even less in favor of the Benz.
> 
> Unless, of course, I can find one like yours. :-)

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[carbucks]

Yes, I've been looking at those as well. Harder to find and much more 
expensive -- twice the price of the 87 300TDs. The extra room and 
horsepower may be worth it, however.

Martin

R A Bennell wrote:
> There is also a Passat wagon which would be a bit bigger than the Jetta.
>
> Randy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of dave walton
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 1:45 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices
>
>
> I changed a transmission on a 2001 Jetta TDI. It was the job from
> hell. I much prefer working on Mercedes. You need a computer just to
> check the transmission fluid level.
> The VW's are very light and tinny in my opinion. Although with 6 air
> bags they might have a safety advantage depending on the
> circumstances.
>
> -Dave Walton
>
> On Feb 13, 2008 2:40 PM, carbucks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> I do my own. Have two 300SDs. What I'm finding is they are taking up
>> more and more of my time.
>>
>> I've had both VWs and Mercedes as well as BMWs. They share a number of
>> qualities. The VWs are less expensive to maintain and very few get close
>> to their mpg.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> John Robbins wrote:
>> 
>>> Do you do your own work or do you have a mechanic do most of it?  Old
>>> Mercedes are a very good value if you do all or a lot of the work
>>> yourself, but they get expensive real quick if you have a mechanic take
>>> care of everything.  There are a LOT of little things that can go wrong
>>> on these cars, and if you want everything to work perfectly you are
>>> absolutely correct that the older MB will cost more to maintain.  That
>>> being the case, there is still something to be said about the quality
>>> and drivability of an MB over a VW!
>>>
>>> If you would like to find out more about the VWs check out TDI Club.
>>> There is a very large following of those TDIs, and there is quite a bit
>>> of good information there as well.
>>>
>>> www.tdiclub.com
>>>
>>>
>>> HTH!
>>> John
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>   
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>> 
>
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>   
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[carbucks]

Hi Alex,

I've had both a 2000 Jetta TDI and a 2004 Golf TDI . Much preferred the 
Golf. Bought it new in the east (cheaper there) and drove it across the 
country. In 2004 they got a bump in horsepower. That engine has about 
the same amount of torque as the VR6.

My wife drove it 200 km a day five days a week and found it to be far 
more comfortable than either of my 300SDs. Plus with the five speed, you 
could out accelerate most vehicles away from the stop light. She still 
misses it.

Martin
Two 300SDs
Missing the TDIs more and more as I write about this

Alex Chamberlain wrote:
> On Feb 13, 2008 11:33 AM, carbucks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Good point. They get similar fuel mileage to the older diesels and have
>> better performance. The 300SDs are fine on the highway, but have trouble
>> keeping up with some city traffic.
>>
>> 
>
> Martin, have you driven an early-'90s diesel Jetta wagon?  Based on my
> experience with a 2001 New Beetle TDI I'd say the opposite would be
> true of them, for what it's worth---they are great city cars with
> plenty of zip right off the line (mostly due to the
> variable-displacement turbo, I think), but run out of steam fast on
> the highway.  Also, as John R. pointed out, the driveability and feel
> are quite different.  I would much rather take my W124 on a long trip
> than any VW---the seats are better and road noise is less despite
> 20-year-old door seals!
>
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo et al.
>
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>   
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Allan Streib]

Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Having W123, W124, W201, and an A2 jetta, the jetta blows them all
> away in terms of how cheap it is to keep on the road. The W123 was a
> neglected car, so it's probably not a fair comparison. The W124 and
> S124 were far FAR more expensive than them all.

I had an A2 Jetta as well, and agree it was pretty cheap as far as
repairs and maintenance go, but I bought it new at about 4 times what
I paid for my 300D, and I financed it.  So that killed the cost of
ownership numbers for me.  I'm pretty sure a 20 year old Jetta would
have cost me more than my W123 to own, they just are not built to last
that long.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Kevin]

On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 04:08:45PM -0500, Allan Streib wrote:
> Zeitgeist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Price a set of rear SLS legs, or #22 head, or evaporator R&R for the
> > S124.  My '96 Passat tdi was a rock-solid reliable, economical and
> > fun to drive car.  Much cheaper to keep than my Mercedes--damn, my
> > Vanagon is even a helluva lot cheaper to run than the TD.  I think I
> > keep the Merc for purely sentimental reasons, at this point.
> 
> Maybe the later models are more expensive... My W123 is hands-down the
> cheapest car I've ever owned, in cost-of-ownership terms.  I do most
> of my own work and buy the parts from Rusty though.  I recently bought
> a Vanagon too, and I like it, but its engineering is cheap and
> amateurish compared to the W123 -- or even compared to my former W110.

Having W123, W124, W201, and an A2 jetta, the jetta blows them all away in
terms of how cheap it is to keep on the road. The W123 was a neglected car,
so it's probably not a fair comparison. The W124 and S124 were far FAR more
expensive than them all.

No doubt, the mercedes is a better put together car, but you pay the price
for it.

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Allan Streib]

Zeitgeist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Price a set of rear SLS legs, or #22 head, or evaporator R&R for the
> S124.  My '96 Passat tdi was a rock-solid reliable, economical and
> fun to drive car.  Much cheaper to keep than my Mercedes--damn, my
> Vanagon is even a helluva lot cheaper to run than the TD.  I think I
> keep the Merc for purely sentimental reasons, at this point.

Maybe the later models are more expensive... My W123 is hands-down the
cheapest car I've ever owned, in cost-of-ownership terms.  I do most
of my own work and buy the parts from Rusty though.  I recently bought
a Vanagon too, and I like it, but its engineering is cheap and
amateurish compared to the W123 -- or even compared to my former W110.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Zeitgeist]

Price a set of rear SLS legs, or #22 head, or evaporator R&R for the S124.
My '96 Passat tdi was a rock-solid reliable, economical and fun to drive
car.  Much cheaper to keep than my Mercedes--damn, my Vanagon is even a
helluva lot cheaper to run than the TD.  I think I keep the Merc for purely
sentimental reasons, at this point.

On Feb 13, 2008 12:33 PM, Allan Streib <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> carbucks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > So paying $10k for a twenty plus year old car that only gets about
> > half the fuel mileage of a five year old Jetta does not add
> > up. Factor in rising fuel costs as well as the higher costs to
> > maintain the Benz and the arithmetic is even less in favor of the
> > Benz.
>
> The Jetta will not hold up like the Benz though  Price a new Jetta
> injection pump.
>
> Allan
> --
> 1983 300D
>
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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[Allan Streib]

carbucks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> So paying $10k for a twenty plus year old car that only gets about
> half the fuel mileage of a five year old Jetta does not add
> up. Factor in rising fuel costs as well as the higher costs to
> maintain the Benz and the arithmetic is even less in favor of the
> Benz.

The Jetta will not hold up like the Benz though  Price a new Jetta
injection pump.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] 87 300td wagon prices

[dave walton]

Lack of space. I finally found a use for those "stubby" drivers that
have been sitting in my toolbox unused.
The 4Matic MB has much more space, but it is just bigger all around.

-Dave Walton

On Feb 13, 2008 3:01 PM, Alex Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 2008 11:45 AM, dave walton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I changed a transmission on a 2001 Jetta TDI. It was the job from
> > hell.
>
> Wouldn't that be true of any kind of drivetrain work on a
> front-wheel-drive car, though?  Everything's all jammed up together
> under the hood, after all, not nicely spread out front-to-back as it
> should be.  What was especially bad about the VW?  (I ask never having
> done or even contemplated any serious repair job on a FWD car, other
> than my old Saab 900's which are quite a different beast than the
> typical transverse-four-with-transaxle arrangement.)
>
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo et al.
>
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