Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 December 2012 12:09, René Dudfield ren...@gmail.com wrote: as I mentioned a couple of times already, I've been working on a new website. Excellent. Is there a repository anywhere so that people can help you with it? How far is it from being ready to replace the current site? There has also been work on integrating the buildbots to use travis-ci and some other build hosts, to go along with the current build page at: http://thorbrian.com/pygame/builds.php 'Current' seems a bit of a stretch when it hasn't run in over a year. ;-) Besides Travis, I've also used Shining Panda ( https://www.shiningpanda-ci.com/ ), which has a free plan for open source projects, and Launchpad recipe builds. I can lend a hand with setting that sort of thing up, if you'd like. Best wishes, Thomas Hi ya, @Thomas: it would be great if you can help out with the CI stuff. Perhaps create an issue with your plans RE Launchpad, shining panda etc, so the rest of us can follow along with what you're up to. An update: There is a list of website tasks growing here: https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues?component=website Thanks to Radomir, and Thomas, there have already been a couple of fixes done. The list of website tasks and issues will slowly grow as I (and others) can add them. So progress should be able to be tracked by looking at the website component issues (once most of the tasks have been added). Discuss the specific tasks in the relevant issues. Or if you want a wider discussion, please post a link to the issue in the mailing list :) Also, the pygame user has been switched to the new bitbucket 'team' type of account, which makes it much easier to create new repos by everyone in the team. Some new repos are going to be added. One for the existing buildbot code, so people can update it (eg, to use hg). Also a 'downloads' repo for installers and source code will be added. Other repos will be added for separate things as needed (eg, the source code update downloader will probably have a separate repo. It downloads updates from google code, bitbucket, github etc, so we can see what updates are happening to everyones projects). These will be added along with the new tasks for separate parts of the website. ** If anyone asks to create a pygame account website account before the new signup part is finished, please ask them to email me or the list to ask for an account. It would be good if you can check first if they have some sort of source code for their project or if you know them already to avoid spammers. **
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
Hi again, as I mentioned a couple of times already, I've been working on a new website. As well as maintaining the website for over 7 years, I've also been hosting the website and paying for the server for a few years, since the seul.orghost was having various troubles(other processes on the same box, like Tor servers which meant frequent hacking and blocking by various countries). The mailing list is still hosted with seul.org however. Please be patient until things are in a state to collaborate more. Some things are already migrated or part migrated to the bitbucket and DVCS like the wiki, downloads, mercurial version control, issue tracking etc. There are multiple admins on the bitbucket account. Comments are with the disquss system, and can be moderated by users. The new docs are another part of the website that have been migrated. The '/docs/' url is still pointed to the old docs at the moment, however the alternative url which I put up for testing and to gather feedback is still available, and is updated from version control automatically. There has also been work on integrating the buildbots to use travis-ci and some other build hosts, to go along with the current build page at: http://thorbrian.com/pygame/builds.php I would like to move the website forward as I have planned. As well I am happy to keep paying for hosting. I would also like to collaborate more on it. It has been a fairly massive undertaking with many different parts, and that has taken way more time that I'd hoped. However, some parts can already be updated by people, and we are getting closer to being able to have more people collaborate on it. Going forward, I will have more time to work on the website, and not just spend my time fighting spam, and I will put tasks in the issue tracker for more visibility, and to allow more people to collaborate. It would be nice to have confirmation from Pete that he won't just move the dns away to point somewhere else. all the best, On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Peter Shinners p...@shinners.org wrote: I've been keeping the domain name registered. The web server and hosting has been managed by seul.org, which was an lucky and amazing choice for the project back in early 2003. Seul has been awesome, but the downside is that everything is custom. The admins have been amazing at adding extra ssh accounts for us, but that still feel like it may not scale or be as flexible as other hosting options these days? After I stopped managing the website, Phil Hassey and Rene Dudfield took over. If a new website is getting put together, it feels like a good time to point the domain to that. Currently the domain is set to expire in April 2013. I won't let it expire, but if someone has more ambitious way to manage it, now may be a good time to change that also? On 12/01/2012 05:10 AM, Radomir Dopieralski wrote: On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone know who runs the website? Here's what I know. According to whois, the domain is registered to Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0118713523, and the server is hosted by Hetzner Online AG, which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no contact information or address, which may or may not be against the law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website, which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of gradual improvement. If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them. Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people wanting to help and being unable to do it.
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On 29 December 2012 12:09, René Dudfield ren...@gmail.com wrote: as I mentioned a couple of times already, I've been working on a new website. Excellent. Is there a repository anywhere so that people can help you with it? How far is it from being ready to replace the current site? There has also been work on integrating the buildbots to use travis-ci and some other build hosts, to go along with the current build page at: http://thorbrian.com/pygame/builds.php 'Current' seems a bit of a stretch when it hasn't run in over a year. ;-) Besides Travis, I've also used Shining Panda ( https://www.shiningpanda-ci.com/ ), which has a free plan for open source projects, and Launchpad recipe builds. I can lend a hand with setting that sort of thing up, if you'd like. Best wishes, Thomas
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
Rene, you've got first pick on where the domain should be configured. I'll get in touch with you offline. On 12/29/2012 04:09 AM, René Dudfield wrote: Hi again, as I mentioned a couple of times already, I've been working on a new website. As well as maintaining the website for over 7 years, I've also been hosting the website and paying for the server for a few years, since the seul.org http://seul.org host was having various troubles(other processes on the same box, like Tor servers which meant frequent hacking and blocking by various countries). The mailing list is still hosted with seul.org http://seul.org however. Please be patient until things are in a state to collaborate more. Some things are already migrated or part migrated to the bitbucket and DVCS like the wiki, downloads, mercurial version control, issue tracking etc. There are multiple admins on the bitbucket account. Comments are with the disquss system, and can be moderated by users. The new docs are another part of the website that have been migrated. The '/docs/' url is still pointed to the old docs at the moment, however the alternative url which I put up for testing and to gather feedback is still available, and is updated from version control automatically. There has also been work on integrating the buildbots to use travis-ci and some other build hosts, to go along with the current build page at: http://thorbrian.com/pygame/builds.php I would like to move the website forward as I have planned. As well I am happy to keep paying for hosting. I would also like to collaborate more on it. It has been a fairly massive undertaking with many different parts, and that has taken way more time that I'd hoped. However, some parts can already be updated by people, and we are getting closer to being able to have more people collaborate on it. Going forward, I will have more time to work on the website, and not just spend my time fighting spam, and I will put tasks in the issue tracker for more visibility, and to allow more people to collaborate. It would be nice to have confirmation from Pete that he won't just move the dns away to point somewhere else. all the best, On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Peter Shinners p...@shinners.org mailto:p...@shinners.org wrote: I've been keeping the domain name registered. The web server and hosting has been managed by seul.org http://seul.org, which was an lucky and amazing choice for the project back in early 2003. Seul has been awesome, but the downside is that everything is custom. The admins have been amazing at adding extra ssh accounts for us, but that still feel like it may not scale or be as flexible as other hosting options these days? After I stopped managing the website, Phil Hassey and Rene Dudfield took over. If a new website is getting put together, it feels like a good time to point the domain to that. Currently the domain is set to expire in April 2013. I won't let it expire, but if someone has more ambitious way to manage it, now may be a good time to change that also? On 12/01/2012 05:10 AM, Radomir Dopieralski wrote: On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com mailto:tak...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone know who runs the website? Here's what I know. According to whois, the domain is registered to Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0118713523 tel:0118713523, and the server is hosted by Hetzner Online AG, which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no contact information or address, which may or may not be against the law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website, which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of gradual improvement. If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them. Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people wanting to help and being unable to do it.
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On 27 December 2012 17:36, Peter Shinners p...@shinners.org wrote: The web server and hosting has been managed by seul.org, which was an lucky and amazing choice for the project back in early 2003. Seul has been awesome, but the downside is that everything is custom. The admins have been amazing at adding extra ssh accounts for us, but that still feel like it may not scale or be as flexible as other hosting options these days? After I stopped managing the website, Phil Hassey and Rene Dudfield took over. If a new website is getting put together, it feels like a good time to point the domain to that. A couple of people have had a go at putting together a new site, but there was some concern about how easily all of the existing content could be transferred to a new site. That led me to suggest incrementally upgrading the existing site, but none of the current admins have offered any opinion on that. Either way, we're not helped by 'Site Swing', a seemingly unmaintained PHP CMS that I think pygame.org might be the only site still using. Perhaps a new site is the way to go. Let's try to think of some requirements: - It should support both posts linked to a specific time (like a blog), and static pages (About, etc.) - We shouldn't break (most) existing links that people are using - so we probably need to make redirects. - We want to keep the colourful, lighthearted style of the current pygame.org (at least, I think so), but make various improvements to the aesthetics. - Several people should be able to update it easily Desirable: - Use something mainstream, so that there's lots of support out there. - Website logic in Python, so that the Python coders who're interested can easily improve it. I know at least one of the previous attempts at a new site used Wordpress, which seems like a good bet for many of these things (it's not Python, but it is very mainstream). Would seul.org be happy to host a wordpress site? Or is someone else prepared to host it? Best wishes, Thomas
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On Fri, 2012-12-28 at 17:30 +, Thomas Kluyver wrote: Perhaps a new site is the way to go. Let's try to think of some requirements: I think the docs website should also auto-update from the repository. Either automatically whenever a commit is made, or on a weekly schedule. This would reduce the number of people needing access to the website, as they can use the normal merge requests, and the website would automatically update. -- PGP: 9626CE2B Twitter/Identi.ca: @sambull signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: I know at least one of the previous attempts at a new site used Wordpress, which seems like a good bet for many of these things (it's not Python, but it is very mainstream). Would seul.org be happy to host a wordpress site? Or is someone else prepared to host it? I think that this is actually the most important question: where and how to host it. If you think about the problem of ensuring continuous operation, the access management, etc. then suddenly the publicly available services look pretty good. For example, I already made an attempt to put pygame's documentation on http://readthedocs.org/pygame -- I still need to rewrite the few remaining HTML documents into ReStructuredText to make it all work, but it works pretty well. And it's automatically updated with the pygame's repository (actually, my fork of that repository for now, while I work on it), so updating the documentation is as easy as a pull request. All the other rarely changing pages can go there too. PyGame already uses Bitbucket to host the code, and its bug tracker to, well, track the bugs. There is also a wiki on bitbucket, nothing advanced, but works. Again, the problem is in translating the current content from HTML which is used by the current wiki, to WikiCreole, which is used by Bitbucket. That is mostly manual, or at most, semi-automatic work. But once it's done, it's easy to move the content again to any wiki engine that supports WikiCreole. If we want an own wiki, I'm confident that the MoinMoin team will gladly host a wiki for us on their servers (they have a wiki farm for open source software). A blog would be a nice addition to the website, but again we can use one of the numerous available blogging sites out there. No need for custom software or special hosting. The last thing that remains is the PyGame projects repository. This is a problem, as it's custom code and most likely also custom data format. It would be a great shame to give up on that, though. I think this is up for discussion. All those different services can easily work on subdomains of the main domain, whether it is pygame.org or anything else (probably something else during the migration). Just my thought on the matter. I would love to help with it all, and I started to work on some small things (like the docs), but the amount of work required is huge and our resources are limited. That's why I think it would probably be best to work in small steps, one service at a time. And to organize it so that anybody can help (with the wiki, by editing it directly, for example, or with the docs, by doing pull requests). Keeping all the relevant code and configuration in the publicly available repositories whenever possible is one thing that would help, for example. -- Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On 12/28/2012 09:30 AM, Thomas Kluyver wrote: I know at least one of the previous attempts at a new site used Wordpress, which seems like a good bet for many of these things (it's not Python, but it is very mainstream). Would seul.org http://seul.org be happy to host a wordpress site? Or is someone else prepared to host it? I don't think there would be any problems switching from the current PHP framework to Wordpress or any others. I assume most of the work would involve getting a fresh database. It's been so long I'm not sure if I even have my credentials for getting onto the SEUL servers.
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
What's stopping anyone from making a new website? I'd be willing to contribute if someone else takes the initiative. On Saturday, December 1, 2012 8:10:24 AM UTC-5, Radomir Dopieralski wrote: On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Does anyone know who runs the website? Here's what I know. According to whois, the domain is registered to Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0118713523, and the server is hosted by Hetzner Online AG, which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no contact information or address, which may or may not be against the law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website, which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of gradual improvement. If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them. Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people wanting to help and being unable to do it. -- Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
I've been keeping the domain name registered. The web server and hosting has been managed by seul.org, which was an lucky and amazing choice for the project back in early 2003. Seul has been awesome, but the downside is that everything is custom. The admins have been amazing at adding extra ssh accounts for us, but that still feel like it may not scale or be as flexible as other hosting options these days? After I stopped managing the website, Phil Hassey and Rene Dudfield took over. If a new website is getting put together, it feels like a good time to point the domain to that. Currently the domain is set to expire in April 2013. I won't let it expire, but if someone has more ambitious way to manage it, now may be a good time to change that also? On 12/01/2012 05:10 AM, Radomir Dopieralski wrote: On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone know who runs the website? Here's what I know. According to whois, the domain is registered to Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0118713523, and the server is hosted by Hetzner Online AG, which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no contact information or address, which may or may not be against the law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website, which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of gradual improvement. If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them. Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people wanting to help and being unable to do it.
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
Hey all, Are we making progress with this? I would like to see the PyGame.org website improved, and I would like to help! Ian
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
Does anyone know who runs the website? Thanks, Thomas On 29 November 2012 17:53, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 November 2012 17:49, Radomir Dopieralski pyg...@sheep.art.plwrote: Before you start discussing what to actually do, do you have any plans of how to get access to the website? Well, I was hoping that someone who already has access might see this as a good idea. That's the only reasonable way to go about it. I don't know who does maintain the site, though. Thomas
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone know who runs the website? Here's what I know. According to whois, the domain is registered to Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0118713523, and the server is hosted by Hetzner Online AG, which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no contact information or address, which may or may not be against the law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website, which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of gradual improvement. If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them. Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people wanting to help and being unable to do it. -- Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
Looking back over the mailing list, René Dudfield's replies in mid-October suggest he is involved with the website. René, is that correct? Can you give us any more info about this? It seems like there are several people who are prepared to help improve the site. Thanks, Thomas On 1 December 2012 13:10, Radomir Dopieralski pyg...@sheep.art.pl wrote: On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone know who runs the website? Here's what I know. According to whois, the domain is registered to Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0118713523, and the server is hosted by Hetzner Online AG, which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no contact information or address, which may or may not be against the law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website, which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of gradual improvement. If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them. Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people wanting to help and being unable to do it. -- Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: Looking at the list archives, I know this has come up a couple of times recently, so allow me to present a slightly different take. A few people have proposed replacing the site with a new one. Others mentioned that migrating the existing content might be quite a lot of work, and the idea seems to have fizzled out each time. Also, the currently website is interestingly unique, and it would be nice to keep that. So I suggest incremental improvements: - Re-enable new user registrations - Pick some of the people who have volunteered to help with spam, and give them moderator status (or whatever is equivalent). - Have a push to make sure pages are up to date and useful. For instance, the 'What's New' page is 3 years out of date. - Put the site theme/engine in a public repository where people can contribute to it. (Or if it already is, make it easier to find) - Improve the theme - I've done a brief mockup of some minor changes to the front page [1]. - If necessary, work on ways to cut spam to manageable levels, like simple CAPTCHAs. [1] http://ubuntuone.com/3zhDP71Z12C3IGmFQo5TWl N.B. The changes here are quite minimal - I've left the main layout and the colour scheme the same, but tried to make it a bit less crowded. I didn't think it should look too serious. All excellent ideas and I support you in whole. What now? -- Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
- If necessary, work on ways to cut spam to manageable levels, like simple CAPTCHAs. What about but questions are not (Result for 3+5 + textbox, What's your favourite scripting language? + textbox) instead of captchas? Also (althought it breaks mobile access) html5-game-based captchas (see http://areyouahuman.com) seems to be a nice idea. -- Santiago Romero Ubuntu GNU/Linux http://www.sromero.org
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On 29 November 2012 17:37, Santiago Romero srom...@sromero.org wrote: What about but questions are not (Result for 3+5 + textbox, What's your favourite scripting language? + textbox) instead of captchas? That's the sort of thing I had in mind. Technically, they are still captchas, just text-based rather than image-based. We use them on the IPython wiki (http://wiki.ipython.org/Main_Page ), and while it doesn't stop all spam, it cuts it to a manageable level. Thomas
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 6:43 PM, Thomas Kluyver tak...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 November 2012 17:37, Santiago Romero srom...@sromero.org wrote: What about but questions are not (Result for 3+5 + textbox, What's your favourite scripting language? + textbox) instead of captchas? That's the sort of thing I had in mind. Technically, they are still captchas, just text-based rather than image-based. We use them on the IPython wiki (http://wiki.ipython.org/Main_Page ), and while it doesn't stop all spam, it cuts it to a manageable level. Before you start discussing what to actually do, do you have any plans of how to get access to the website? -- Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl
Re: [pygame] PyGame website
On 29 November 2012 17:49, Radomir Dopieralski pyg...@sheep.art.pl wrote: Before you start discussing what to actually do, do you have any plans of how to get access to the website? Well, I was hoping that someone who already has access might see this as a good idea. That's the only reasonable way to go about it. I don't know who does maintain the site, though. Thomas
Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?
Maybe this is complicating things more than needed, could be as simple as a
have a boolean set by the author using a checkbox. If: its
'not-usable-at-this-point-other-than-prototype' checkbox.
However, I think 2 choices isn't enough, that 3 is just right. [else, games
will 'hang' on non-finished because they are not super-polished, even if
they are playable ] More than 3 is getting excessive, where the values
become less distinct, less meaning.
listbox enum: {
very_alpha ,
# Very early, prototype/alpha state.
playable ,
# game might have few levels, but is playable.
# Not uber polished, not a huge amount of content.
mature }
# Lots of levels / content.
# Game has a lot more polish
Not sure how good version numbers will work, if they aren't normalized. But
maybe false-not-ready's in a search better than mostly-not-set-values?
There's also libraries. Could use same values: { very_alpha, usable, mature
}
--
Jake
Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?
That sounds like a good idea, Enrico. Often it isn't explicit just how complete a posted game (or program) is. On 22 May 2010 03:11, Enrico Kochon ekoc...@uni-osnabrueck.de wrote: Hi, ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know who is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners? http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like a ranking system and so on. I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the readiness of a game. There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find games which are developed far enough to be really playable. Best regards, Enrico
Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?
I think the version field can be used for this. On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Enrico Kochon ekoc...@uni-osnabrueck.dewrote: Hi, ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know who is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners? http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like a ranking system and so on. I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the readiness of a game. There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find games which are developed far enough to be really playable. Best regards, Enrico
Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?
René Dudfield schrieb: I think the version field can be used for this. On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Enrico Kochon ekoc...@uni-osnabrueck.dewrote: Hi, ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know who is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners? http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like a ranking system and so on. I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the readiness of a game. There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find games which are developed far enough to be really playable. Best regards, Enrico Hi, yes the version field should be enough. Thus, my featurerequest was slightly incorrect: I ought to wish it was possible to search projects with a certain version. Netherless, the field version is free text, a version numbering system, or good default text choices (alpha, beta, release) are not given. By the way: there is a promising site http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/, what is this all about? Will it replace the offical pygame.org? Regards, Enrico
Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Enrico Kochon ekoc...@uni-osnabrueck.dewrote: René Dudfield schrieb: I think the version field can be used for this. On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Enrico Kochon ekoc...@uni-osnabrueck.dewrote: Hi, ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know who is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners? http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like a ranking system and so on. I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the readiness of a game. There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find games which are developed far enough to be really playable. Best regards, Enrico Hi, yes the version field should be enough. Thus, my featurerequest was slightly incorrect: I ought to wish it was possible to search projects with a certain version. Netherless, the field version is free text, a version numbering system, or good default text choices (alpha, beta, release) are not given. By the way: there is a promising site http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/, what is this all about? Will it replace the offical pygame.org? Regards, Enrico Yeah, I think some sort of search page using the version number would be cool. Searches where you can select = 1, beta, alpha etc might be useful. cu.
Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing
Thanks. She's right about the teal gradient:). The current design is VERY alpha, more basic layout to get started then anything and I'm really just playing with the colors at this point. Adobe kuler is also good for color schemes. Devon --- On Sun, 5/24/09, Tyler Laing trinio...@gmail.com wrote: From: Tyler Laing trinio...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing To: pygame-users@seul.org Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 4:17 PM Hi, lots of good work there. I sent over your current design, as of sun may 24, 2:02 PM, to an artist friend of mine. Also, I sent her the old design. She had some advice and criticisms: The gradient must disappear. On the first one and on both of them the dark green does not match the yellower-based greens. They need to pick a theme of green thoughout. Not teal green and then toss in some lime. It just doesn't match or coordinate at all. What they really need is a blend of the new site and the old. Because the new site is too sparse and the old one is too busy without having good-looking dividers. About the new site design: Just make sure that their greens match. The white background's(for the new site) not bad but it's pretty stark. I'd say maybe the best thing would be just a solid background, or just take out that big image and do a simple texture on the background paired with a smaller, more modest header image. Also the tables in the white are very boring. They should have better borders or a little color. If you want to use green, she suggests using this website to pick a color scheme: http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/colors.php Just remember, if you don't like the advice, you don't have to listen to her, but it is advice intended to make the site better. :) -Tyler On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:48 PM, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: Hello, A first version of the rewritten pygame.org website is ready for testing: http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/ Main focus is on project management and user system. News are also yet available. Feel free to register or log in with guest/guest, create and edit projects, releases, screenshots and your profile or vote the (dummy-)project of the month. Devon is still working on the design and often changes it. For development organization we use Trac and a mailing list at google groups. More information at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/. If you spot any bugs or have an idea for this first version thats not already on our ToDo list (http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/ToDo) create a ticket. There was a problem with email and Trac, but now, all registration and email stuff should work. Regards, Julian -- Visit my blog at http://oddco.ca/zeroth/zblog
Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing
Good to hear Devon. Good luck with your efforts! -Tyler On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Devon Scott-Tunkin djvonfun...@yahoo.comwrote: Thanks. She's right about the teal gradient:). The current design is VERY alpha, more basic layout to get started then anything and I'm really just playing with the colors at this point. Adobe kuler is also good for color schemes. Devon --- On Sun, 5/24/09, Tyler Laing trinio...@gmail.com wrote: From: Tyler Laing trinio...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing To: pygame-users@seul.org Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 4:17 PM Hi, lots of good work there. I sent over your current design, as of sun may 24, 2:02 PM, to an artist friend of mine. Also, I sent her the old design. She had some advice and criticisms: The gradient must disappear. On the first one and on both of them the dark green does not match the yellower-based greens. They need to pick a theme of green thoughout. Not teal green and then toss in some lime. It just doesn't match or coordinate at all. What they really need is a blend of the new site and the old. Because the new site is too sparse and the old one is too busy without having good-looking dividers. About the new site design: Just make sure that their greens match. The white background's(for the new site) not bad but it's pretty stark. I'd say maybe the best thing would be just a solid background, or just take out that big image and do a simple texture on the background paired with a smaller, more modest header image. Also the tables in the white are very boring. They should have better borders or a little color. If you want to use green, she suggests using this website to pick a color scheme: http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/colors.php Just remember, if you don't like the advice, you don't have to listen to her, but it is advice intended to make the site better. :) -Tyler On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:48 PM, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: Hello, A first version of the rewritten pygame.org website is ready for testing: http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/ Main focus is on project management and user system. News are also yet available. Feel free to register or log in with guest/guest, create and edit projects, releases, screenshots and your profile or vote the (dummy-)project of the month. Devon is still working on the design and often changes it. For development organization we use Trac and a mailing list at google groups. More information at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/. If you spot any bugs or have an idea for this first version thats not already on our ToDo list (http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/ToDo) create a ticket. There was a problem with email and Trac, but now, all registration and email stuff should work. Regards, Julian -- Visit my blog at http://oddco.ca/zeroth/zblog -- Visit my blog at http://oddco.ca/zeroth/zblog
Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.
Is it because just you want to do it or you didn't liked current goings on of the django-based development. if you didn't liked development of django site you should point it out so it stops if general discussion is at same opinion. i think this is what behaviour should be. i never say it's a bad thing and you shouldn't do it because it's nice you want pygame.org become better and i'm not the one to decide on that but you. but there are points i didn't liked. people will give efforts on this projects and there is one goal at the end for the both teams. i don't join the idea *each code base should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get used for pygame.org*. it's not like developing a game. team that loses won't reach into anything and all efforts they do will be ruined. i want to highlight again that i don't mean you shouldn't do it and i don't feel like we will win or lose. i'm just worried about one of the teams(not only us) efforts will be wasted and nobody said us we will compete when it was starting. excuse me but i also felt like some django hate on that message. 2009/5/25 René Dudfield ren...@gmail.com *___** _ _ __ ___ _ _ || \ \\ // \ //\ ||\/| /|\ || | \\ /|| // \|| \ / | || |--/ \\_/ ||==//\ || \/ | ||| **|**| || |||| // \ || | || **|**| || \/ //\ || | \=/ *. *o* *r* *g* - taking the C++ out of game development. - the web isn't just text and databases. - taking the framework out of webs. there is already another team working on a 'django' based remake of the pygame website. As mentioned here: http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/34a561e3ac7ebc26/ed32b7f3d1f20688 and here: http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/872f0751729c8176/208a966e5470d891 we are also working on a new pygame.org website! This email describes the non-django teams effort. A little competition is never bad, and each code base should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get used for pygame.org May the best website win! *=** = **The Plan.** **= * *=** * *~ Stage one(1)*: - rewrite current site in python using existing templates. - Using python, *pygame*, mysql, cherrypy, ffmpeg, sqlalchemy, pygments, feedparser, lxml, and likely formencode/formalchemy/nicks formlib. - incorporate small features from long standing todo list into the rewrite. - start design of new website as we go. Using moch ups, and design by Daniel Jones http://daniel.poweredbybees.com/ (portfolio link http://daniel.poweredbybees.com/ http://f0o.com/%7Edaniel/), (illume) Rene, (pymike), (akalias) Nicholas, and - getting feedback from community. - Daniel will send moch-ups to mailing list for review and crits. - use knowledge from redoing existing website in the design of the new website. Development is just starting in svn: http://code.google.com/p/pygame/source/browse/#svn/branches/w A code layout something like this... run_game.py run_tests.py lib/db.py lib/cherrypy lib/sqlalchemy lib/ public_html/ public_html/skins/ public_html/shots/ Will include the database (with all personal details removed) as sql. sqllite for development, and mysql on the real server. Since python comes with sqllite, people won't need to set up mysql to make changes. Including cherrypy, and sqlalchemy so people don't need to install them separately. It's the same layout used by many pygames especially skellington based pyweek games. *~ Stage two(2):* - implement new features and design. - open up to other developers. Current todo list (as collected from pygame.org/wiki/todo): - feed(rss, atom) for wiki recent changes. - Menu to use alternating background colours - to make it easier to read. - Optional email notification on project change, including release and comment. A per user, per project option. - Nicer urls for projects. eg projects/512/zanthor/ - detect tabs in code blocks, and convert to spaces. Either ask to convert to 4 or 8 spaces, or do some magic to figure out how many spaces. - Browsing projects in more ways. By ranking, by date. - Spotlight projects changeable from management area. - Fix website for looking ok in 800x600 resolution - the header does not scale down well. ** *= Stage X: Making an API usable
Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:43 AM, orcun avsar orc@gmail.com wrote: Is it because just you want to do it or you didn't liked current goings on of the django-based development. if you didn't liked development of django site you should point it out so it stops if general discussion is at same opinion. i think this is what behaviour should be. i never say it's a bad thing and you shouldn't do it because it's nice you want pygame.org become better and i'm not the one to decide on that but you. but there are points i didn't liked. people will give efforts on this projects and there is one goal at the end for the both teams. i don't join the idea *each code base should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get used for pygame.org*. it's not like developing a game. team that loses won't reach into anything and all efforts they do will be ruined. i want to highlight again that i don't mean you shouldn't do it and i don't feel like we will win or lose. i'm just worried about one of the teams(not only us) efforts will be wasted and nobody said us we will compete when it was starting. excuse me but i also felt like some django hate on that message. hello, I never got a response from you, or jug when I talked about it a couple of weeks ago here: http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/872f0751729c8176/208a966e5470d891?pli=1 The coding on the django based website started without discussion finishing. There was a discussion with some different view points, and you just didn't seem to care and began the website, ignoring them anyway. Then I didn't have any option but to start a website myself. I told you in other threads I was making one, and that there had been a plan to make one since January. Again, neither you or jug responded. http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gstq=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1
Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.
Hi, The coding on the django based website started without discussion finishing. There was a discussion with some different view points, and you just didn't seem to care and began the website, ignoring them anyway. Then I didn't have any option but to start a website myself. Well, there was no progress in discussion any more. And why do you have to start an own project when we start? Do you think Django is rubbish or why can't you just let us (keen students) do our project even if its not part of GSoC? Do you have to give proof of sth.? Do you have nothing better to do (like me :))? I think, we've got to a pretty nice intermediate, so why do you have to start a competitive project instead of helping us with testing, design, Trac etc. so we get one perfect website that all back and not 2 good ones and so. has to decide who's work will be appreciated and who's not. I told you in other threads I was making one, and that there had been a plan to make one since January. Again, neither you or jug responded. http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gstq=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1 http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gstq=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1 If it was so clear that you will write the website since January, why was it a point on GSoC list and why don't you have already started? (Would you write your own page even if it was a GSoC project? What's the difference now?) And since we used the pygame svn repo at google and the at the beginning introduced webiste/Trac everyone could always notice what we were doing and we don't come back from nowhere surprisingly. We telled your our plans and did that thus far whereas it's a bit curious to me that you check in your competitive product just a few hours after our fist preview release. Julian
Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.
there was too many messages on that topic, i was following yours and marcus's messages on that topic because you were mentors for the GSoC. i don't think everybody would ever come together at the same thought because it's a matter of choice that chosing which framework to use. i lastly red marcus's message which he was saying that he trusts us and i thought it and stop following that thread because so many messages were comparing django and cherrypy. i didn't like it. i missed your last message sorry for that. If it was so clear that you will write the website since January, why was it a point on GSoC list and why don't you have already started? (Would you write your own page even if it was a GSoC project? What's the difference now?) i think jug touched a good point. i first red marcus's or your message saying we can start our gsoc projects even if we didn't selected than when jug mailed to list. i decided to join. we never forced to do it. i wasn't thinking you will start to do it because it was on GSoC list and you were mentor and reviewed our proposals for that project.when i sent my proposal you seemed like you liked it. if you plan to do it, you shouldn't have let us spread our times for our gsoc proposals. sorry for little nervy behaviours. 2009/5/26 René Dudfield ren...@gmail.com On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:43 AM, orcun avsar orc@gmail.com wrote: Is it because just you want to do it or you didn't liked current goings on of the django-based development. if you didn't liked development of django site you should point it out so it stops if general discussion is at same opinion. i think this is what behaviour should be. i never say it's a bad thing and you shouldn't do it because it's nice you want pygame.orgbecome better and i'm not the one to decide on that but you. but there are points i didn't liked. people will give efforts on this projects and there is one goal at the end for the both teams. i don't join the idea *each code base should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get used for pygame.org*. it's not like developing a game. team that loses won't reach into anything and all efforts they do will be ruined. i want to highlight again that i don't mean you shouldn't do it and i don't feel like we will win or lose. i'm just worried about one of the teams(not only us) efforts will be wasted and nobody said us we will compete when it was starting. excuse me but i also felt like some django hate on that message. hello, I never got a response from you, or jug when I talked about it a couple of weeks ago here: http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/872f0751729c8176/208a966e5470d891?pli=1 The coding on the django based website started without discussion finishing. There was a discussion with some different view points, and you just didn't seem to care and began the website, ignoring them anyway. Then I didn't have any option but to start a website myself. I told you in other threads I was making one, and that there had been a plan to make one since January. Again, neither you or jug responded. http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gstq=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1
Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.
hello, On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:18 AM, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: Hi, The coding on the django based website started without discussion finishing. There was a discussion with some different view points, and you just didn't seem to care and began the website, ignoring them anyway. Then I didn't have any option but to start a website myself. Well, there was no progress in discussion any more. And why do you have to start an own project when we start? Do you think Django is rubbish or why can't you just let us (keen students) do our project even if its not part of GSoC? Do you have to give proof of sth.? Do you have nothing better to do (like me :))? I tried to talk with you, but you didn't listen, and went ahead on your own. You didn't respond to my email letting you know I'll be working on an alternative project either. Again, there were efforts on a new website before you started. Phil prepared the existing website source code to be released, and I have been working on design and planning. I think, we've got to a pretty nice intermediate, so why do you have to start a competitive project instead of helping us with testing, design, Trac etc. so we get one perfect website that all back and not 2 good ones and so. has to decide who's work will be appreciated and who's not. It's great that you've got your website going, however it's not the direction I'm interested in. It seems you've done a good job at it, and it looks like it's going to turn into a very good website. You just started working on your code, and didn't respond to my concerns. That's not the way to try and work together from my perspective. Perhaps if you'd waited, and we came to some sort of agreement we could have worked together. I told you in other threads I was making one, and that there had been a plan to make one since January. Again, neither you or jug responded. http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gstq=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1 http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gstq=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1 If it was so clear that you will write the website since January, why was it a point on GSoC list and why don't you have already started? (Would you write your own page even if it was a GSoC project? What's the difference now?) The website projects were not selected for GSOC. I don't control what goes on that list, and I didn't put it there. Anyone can place things on that gsoc ideas list. There was a start, as mentioned in the other emails I sent to you. http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/34a561e3ac7ebc26/ed32b7f3d1f20688 And since we used the pygame svn repo at google and the at the beginning introduced webiste/Trac everyone could always notice what we were doing and we don't come back from nowhere surprisingly. We telled your our plans and did that thus far whereas it's a bit curious to me that you check in your competitive product just a few hours after our fist preview release. Julian yes, and I told you a couple of times I'd be working on one too... weeks ago. http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gstq=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1 I also released the current website source to the mailing list weeks ago... http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/58ecbc11953f5c6/56ff133bf7378ccc Anyone can work on whatever they want. You do whatever you like, and I'll work on a separate website project. Each project can of course be used by other websites other than pygame... there's thousands of open source projects out there who'd like a good website. There's also a lot of work which can be shared between the two... like the mapping of the existing database that we've done... for migrating old data over - and many other things. Our website is likely to be licenced LGPL like pygame... to keep it simple. Using the licences of the various other components we use. Another reason to work on it is to learn - so as we make these websites, we can learn about them. So I'm not at all worried if our (the non-django teams) website isn't used as the pygame website. So far your website looks, and works better... our website-game just returns 'lalala'. I wish you well in your efforts.
Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:45 AM, orcun avsar orc@gmail.com wrote: i think jug touched a good point. i first red marcus's or your message saying we can start our gsoc projects even if we didn't selected than when jug mailed to list. i decided to join. we never forced to do it. i wasn't thinking you will start to do it because it was on GSoC list and you were mentor and reviewed our proposals for that project.when i sent my proposal you seemed like you liked it. if you plan to do it, you shouldn't have let us spread our times for our gsoc proposals. Hello, You did have a good proposal, however I suggested you submit a different proposal. I made that point repeatedly on the mailing list. We had many projects to select from - around 30 different proposals. I'm sorry that you spent time on your proposal, or if the message wasn't clear enough. Different people were interested in different projects, and proposals. We tried our hardest to get as many of the pygame proposals accepted as possible - and got the most out of any python projects under the PSF. Most other projects only got 1 accepted. Unfortunately the whole proposal process wastes a lot of peoples time... but not completely... as proposal writing is a good skill to practice. I didn't make the point that you can work on projects even if not selected, and wasn't really comfortable with that point being made. However, of course people can work on whatever they like. You of course, are free to do whatever you like - including continuing to work on your website. Just because I'm working on one, doesn't mean you can't too. sorry for little nervy behaviours.
Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing
A trivial design suggestion: I think that you should give an indication of rollover on the main navigation bar. Right now, there's no indication that you're hovering over a navigation link except the pointer cursor. I'm not sure if an underline or a color change would be better, but there should be some indicator, IMHO.Good job so far; I like the strong alignment. Evan Kroske
Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing
Hi, lots of good work there. I sent over your current design, as of sun may 24, 2:02 PM, to an artist friend of mine. Also, I sent her the old design. She had some advice and criticisms: The gradient must disappear. On the first one and on both of them the dark green does not match the yellower-based greens. They need to pick a theme of green thoughout. Not teal green and then toss in some lime. It just doesn't match or coordinate at all. What they really need is a blend of the new site and the old. Because the new site is too sparse and the old one is too busy without having good-looking dividers. About the new site design: Just make sure that their greens match. The white background's(for the new site) not bad but it's pretty stark. I'd say maybe the best thing would be just a solid background, or just take out that big image and do a simple texture on the background paired with a smaller, more modest header image. Also the tables in the white are very boring. They should have better borders or a little color. If you want to use green, she suggests using this website to pick a color scheme: http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/colors.php Just remember, if you don't like the advice, you don't have to listen to her, but it is advice intended to make the site better. :) -Tyler On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:48 PM, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: Hello, A first version of the rewritten pygame.org website is ready for testing: http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/ Main focus is on project management and user system. News are also yet available. Feel free to register or log in with guest/guest, create and edit projects, releases, screenshots and your profile or vote the (dummy-)project of the month. Devon is still working on the design and often changes it. For development organization we use Trac and a mailing list at google groups. More information at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/. If you spot any bugs or have an idea for this first version thats not already on our ToDo list (http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/ToDo) create a ticket. There was a problem with email and Trac, but now, all registration and email stuff should work. Regards, Julian -- Visit my blog at http://oddco.ca/zeroth/zblog
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
yeah should be mostly simple... the website also uses some stuff to filter out things like javascript. Hopefully there is something similar available for python now. Does lxml support that? Failing that, will have to convert one of the ones from php. feedparser in python is pretty good for that... however it still has some problems. It's a must for user submitted website content, no matter the markup language. cu, On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net wrote: Sanitising will be simple. I have tried lxml. Of course there is also beautifulsoup. Another issue is maintaining consistently across pages. Using h.. tags doesn't work. Remembering what header level to use when is bothersome. If new, more descriptive, header tags could be added that would be great. And a preview function. Lenard René Dudfield wrote: Hi, I suggest using the current one - rewritten in python, and fixing that bug. I think that's the only code mangling bug it has? Yeah, the code in the wiki is probably best described as non-strict html... or just html... which is not strict itself. The wiki does some sanitising on the html after entry. It's only a few lines of code to add a gui editor like tinymce... so we could add that for those who don't want to use markup. cheers, On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.netmailto: le...@telus.net wrote: Hi René, I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not obvious. The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do want the new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I mistaken. Also Python code gets mangled, '' replaced with 'lt;' for code sections. This is probably a data entry problem though. But whatever wiki engine is chosen it has to handle this properly. Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle it right? What alternate wiki do you suggest? Lenard René Dudfield wrote: hi, the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list. The internet is a bug tracker. I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means: http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us. The current pygame wiki just uses simple html. So should be fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html. Since most programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi, lxml parses the html to an xml ElementTree structure. It is also a validating parser, so a restrictived DTD could be provided to reject scripts. Or the tree could just be searched. Lenard Quoting René Dudfield ren...@gmail.com: yeah should be mostly simple... the website also uses some stuff to filter out things like javascript. Hopefully there is something similar available for python now. Does lxml support that? Failing that, will have to convert one of the ones from php. feedparser in python is pretty good for that... however it still has some problems. It's a must for user submitted website content, no matter the markup language. cu, On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net wrote: Sanitising will be simple. I have tried lxml. Of course there is also beautifulsoup. Another issue is maintaining consistently across pages. Using h.. tags doesn't work. Remembering what header level to use when is bothersome. If new, more descriptive, header tags could be added that would be great. And a preview function. Lenard René Dudfield wrote: Hi, I suggest using the current one - rewritten in python, and fixing that bug. I think that's the only code mangling bug it has? Yeah, the code in the wiki is probably best described as non-strict html... or just html... which is not strict itself. The wiki does some sanitising on the html after entry. It's only a few lines of code to add a gui editor like tinymce... so we could add that for those who don't want to use markup. cheers, On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.netmailto: le...@telus.net wrote: Hi René, I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not obvious. The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do want the new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I mistaken. Also Python code gets mangled, '' replaced with 'lt;' for code sections. This is probably a data entry problem though. But whatever wiki engine is chosen it has to handle this properly. Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle it right? What alternate wiki do you suggest? Lenard René Dudfield wrote: hi, the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list. The internet is a bug tracker. I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means: http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us. The current pygame wiki just uses simple html. So should be fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html. Since most programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup. -- Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi, using Trac with google SVN is not directly provided, but could be done. You need to mirror the repo on the server where Trac is running on. Because you have no access to SVN-hook scripts at google it's a bit tricky. Have a look at http://rc98.net/googsvnsync. I'm not a SVN expert so who could undertake this? We are still waiting for the current database structure, but I think it will be possible to import old wiki data. At http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/script are some scripts to import wiki data from other wikis (eg. MoinToTrac). I think we could write an equal script. - Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi, I just got the DjangoAuthIntegration (1) Trac plugin working. With this plugin, you can login to Django, go to Trac and are logged in (without reentering username and password). After logging out at Django, you are logged out with Trac, too. Thats really cool. Now need some testing. -Jug (1) http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DjangoAuthIntegration
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
hi, the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list. The internet is a bug tracker. I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means: http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us. The current pygame wiki just uses simple html. So should be fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html. Since most programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup. On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Nirav Patel o...@spongezone.net wrote: All I have to add to this is that having real bug tracking integrated with the SVN is a huge plus and if possible, should be put into place as soon as possible. That is, having Trac up on dev.pygame.org before starting the web development work for use with both the website project and Pygame in general would be nice. I really dislike the Bugzilla we are currently using, and judging by the lack of activity on it, I imagine many others do too. Nirav On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net wrote: Marcus von Appen wrote: After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might make the most sense: SVN hosting on google. Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on dev.pygame.org. Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on different domains as it is at the moment. dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a planning and early development state and the trac system running there can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted elsewhere (google, pygame, ...). In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website. For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either) pygame project. We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.organd wherever else. Keeping the web site development on a separate site, google, seem appropriate for now. I have just been looking again at Trac and at first it looks like a good choice. The wiki has a clean markup that accepts Python code without mangling it. But I have two questions. One, how easy will it be to import the existing Pygame wiki pages into Trac? Two, can we really use the Trac with the Web SVN and Pygame SVN? (*) Lenard (*) I believe no to the first, yes to the second (http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall#OptionalRequirements).
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
jug wrote: Hi, using Trac with google SVN is not directly provided, but could be done. You need to mirror the repo on the server where Trac is running on. Because you have no access to SVN-hook scripts at google it's a bit tricky. Have a look at http://rc98.net/googsvnsync. I'm not a SVN expert so who could undertake this? We are still waiting for the current database structure, but I think it will be possible to import old wiki data. At http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/script are some scripts to import wiki data from other wikis (eg. MoinToTrac). I think we could write an equal script. - Jug Not having direct google SVN access from Trac is not a big deal. And certainly something can be figured out with for the wiki pages. It is not a new problem. -- Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi René, I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not obvious. The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do want the new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I mistaken. Also Python code gets mangled, '' replaced with 'lt;' for code sections. This is probably a data entry problem though. But whatever wiki engine is chosen it has to handle this properly. Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle it right? What alternate wiki do you suggest? Lenard René Dudfield wrote: hi, the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list. The internet is a bug tracker. I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means: http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us. The current pygame wiki just uses simple html. So should be fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html. Since most programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi, I suggest using the current one - rewritten in python, and fixing that bug. I think that's the only code mangling bug it has? Yeah, the code in the wiki is probably best described as non-strict html... or just html... which is not strict itself. The wiki does some sanitising on the html after entry. It's only a few lines of code to add a gui editor like tinymce... so we could add that for those who don't want to use markup. cheers, On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net wrote: Hi René, I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not obvious. The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do want the new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I mistaken. Also Python code gets mangled, '' replaced with 'lt;' for code sections. This is probably a data entry problem though. But whatever wiki engine is chosen it has to handle this properly. Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle it right? What alternate wiki do you suggest? Lenard René Dudfield wrote: hi, the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list. The internet is a bug tracker. I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means: http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us. The current pygame wiki just uses simple html. So should be fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html. Since most programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
hi, sorry if my emails come across as not being thankful, or appreciative of your efforts... little pygame is my baby(and is many other peoples baby too of course), so I'm maybe overly protective of it. Thanks partly to you(and others), and your enthusiasm the project seems like it might actually get done, and it is very much appreciated by me and everyone else I'm sure. On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:52 PM, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: Hello, I'm kinda amazed about some points: 1) Did anyone read my concept? Some of the discussed ideas here I had before but no one cared. 2) I created a trac an you said nice! and created a Google project. Thanks for progressive way you went forward and are getting things done. However, this will be a team effort, and we need to discuss our plan before doing things. I don't really know you, and I was a little worried you might disappear in a week/month. Whereas a google site won't just disappear. I'm not saying that you would disappear... just that it's very common for people to disappear on open source projects. There's no need to rush into making a decision about what we want to do with the website. One of the main goals of the rewrite was so that more pygame contributors could modify the websites code. Three active contributors to pygame have expressed a preference for using cherrypy(pymike, nick, and I). pymike doesn't write code for pygame itself, but has put more games/projects on the pygame website than almost any other person(him and Ian seem to be in a race to produce the most things). pymike also expressed interest in working on the website in late January. The three main 'clients' for this project are... - the coders who make pygame, - the people who make games with pygame, - and the people who contribute to the website. So whilst it's important that the people making the website are happy with the choice of tools, it's also important the other main groups are happy with the choices. As one of the people contributing to pygame for the longest time, I want to make sure the website is done nicely, and is an improvement to the current one. It's probably the most important part of pygame, so I think it deserves some more discussion. 3) This project was an gsoc candidate and AFAIK all applicants wanted to use Django. At least 2 of them (Orcun and me) would like to do it even without google. Now you say let's do it with cherrypy because you don't know Django. Hm. I my view, both - Django and cherrypy - are mighty enough for our needs, thus its a relig. question of faith. But you asked so to do it. So, here we are! We have time and (only) want to do it with Django, cause we don't know cherrypy as you don't know Django. Maybe here are some php-experts why do it with php? Yes, however there's also other people interested in working on the website. Rather than have you decide what is used, we need to have a discussion. I didn't know you didn't like cherrypy or not... and I don't know yet what other people want to use. btw, I have looked at django in the past. Here you can see a post I made in 2006 about some security problems I found in Django http://renesd.blogspot.com/2006/08/django-security.html I mention this just to show that I'm not entirely unfamiliar with django. Let me explain some history, and further outline parts of the current website... The current website is made with PHP and some website technology made by Phil which he used to make dozens of websites professionaly. This is what Phil chose to use as the website maintainer in early 2005. This time around we wanted to make it a team effort, and to make it in python. Last time we(the mailing list and Pete Shinners) decided to let whoever the website maintainer is make it in whatever they wanted to make it with. The main goal was to get a good website. This time we decided it would be better to do it in python, and also have a team of website maintainers. Since not so many pygame developers people know PHP, and that has meant that it's been a bit difficult for us to make changes... we had to bother Phil mostly to change things. Luckily the website has worked fairly well without needing to make all that many changes to the code. It's pretty amazing really what Phil has done with the website, and especially considering how it has worked for many years without many code changes, and is now a very popular website. Before 2005, the project was more Pete Shinners personal project with a bunch of helpers... now it has evolved into group project with 8 or so main fairly active contributors, and a whole bunch of sometimes contributors... with millions of downloads, 10,000's of people using it to make things, and millions of people playing the games made with pygame. There's over 1100 projects listed on pygame.org. Now both Pete, and Phil have somewhat moved onto other things from pygame, but both pop their heads in occasionally... and
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net wrote: Hi René, I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not obvious. hi again, This is the page which makes bugzilla easier to use. It has links to the main things it's used for. http://pygame.motherhamster.org/ I do note however that it has been maintained quite well by James Paige... in that the website hasn't had much downtime, and it isn't full of spam which seems to happen to some trac instances. However, as I mentioned before I'm not really interested in bug trackers... preferring to search for bugs... so I'll leave that choice up to the rest of you. I think there's more bugs reported if you search for 'pygame bug' (with only the last months/week/day entries listed) in google, than get reported in bug trackers. eg. http://www.google.com/search?q=pygame+bugas_epq=as_oq=as_eq=num=10lr=as_filetype=ft=ias_sitesearch=as_qdr=was_rights=as_occt=anycr=as_nlo=as_nhi= cu,
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
On, Sun Apr 26, 2009, Rene Dudfield wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net wrote: Hi René, I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not obvious. Seconded - bugzilla is a pain due to various reasons, be it its high complexity, the need to register and the really weird 'do not simply file a bug' avoidance. The main reason to use trac would be to have a lot of features in one well-maintained and solid system. The wiki, milestone management and such stuff (suitable for gsoc tasks and subprojects) and even a good bug tracker are something to favour over an own hackish solution in my opinion. We won't need to implement a wiki ourselves as trac comes with it. A bug tracker for those who do not like mailing lists would be given, - one that does not require a master degree in report generation and bug filing management to use it (*). [...] I do note however that it has been maintained quite well by James Paige... in that the website hasn't had much downtime, and it isn't full of spam which seems to happen to some trac instances. I only noticed that for projects, which are mostly stalled or where the whole website seems to be completely unmaintained or dead. If spam from anonymous users should go out of hands, we can change trac to accept only registered users for bug reports (which'd be a pity, though). However, as I mentioned before I'm not really interested in bug trackers... preferring to search for bugs... so I'll leave that choice up to the rest of I'm preferring the mailing list, but some people do not want to subscribe there or whatever and for those a small bug tracker is the perfect solution. (*) Many people, including me are pretty annoyed by bugzilla and a lot do not even report bugs (including me) to projects like mozilla anymore, as they do not want to register yet another account just for a short bug, for which they even have to spend half a day on filling out all boxes. Regards Marcus pgpcK5jLztZse.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi, Thanks for the link to the bug tracker main page. A bug tracker may not be the most productive way to discover reported bug but what it does organize the repair effort. The mailing list has worked so far, but is not a good place to search out the current status of a bug. It also leaves us reliant on gmane.org, the only mailing list archive of the two listed with a proper search option. Even if Pygame does not get a bug tracker its website's framework will, or at least it will while under development. Lenard René Dudfield wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net mailto:le...@telus.net wrote: Hi René, I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not obvious. hi again, This is the page which makes bugzilla easier to use. It has links to the main things it's used for. http://pygame.motherhamster.org/ I do note however that it has been maintained quite well by James Paige... in that the website hasn't had much downtime, and it isn't full of spam which seems to happen to some trac instances. However, as I mentioned before I'm not really interested in bug trackers... preferring to search for bugs... so I'll leave that choice up to the rest of you. I think there's more bugs reported if you search for 'pygame bug' (with only the last months/week/day entries listed) in google, than get reported in bug trackers. eg. http://www.google.com/search?q=pygame+bugas_epq=as_oq=as_eq=num=10lr=as_filetype=ft=ias_sitesearch=as_qdr=was_rights=as_occt=anycr=as_nlo=as_nhi= http://www.google.com/search?q=pygame+bugas_epq=as_oq=as_eq=num=10lr=as_filetype=ft=ias_sitesearch=as_qdr=was_rights=as_occt=anycr=as_nlo=as_nhi= cu,
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Sanitising will be simple. I have tried lxml. Of course there is also beautifulsoup. Another issue is maintaining consistently across pages. Using h.. tags doesn't work. Remembering what header level to use when is bothersome. If new, more descriptive, header tags could be added that would be great. And a preview function. Lenard René Dudfield wrote: Hi, I suggest using the current one - rewritten in python, and fixing that bug. I think that's the only code mangling bug it has? Yeah, the code in the wiki is probably best described as non-strict html... or just html... which is not strict itself. The wiki does some sanitising on the html after entry. It's only a few lines of code to add a gui editor like tinymce... so we could add that for those who don't want to use markup. cheers, On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net mailto:le...@telus.net wrote: Hi René, I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not obvious. The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do want the new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I mistaken. Also Python code gets mangled, '' replaced with 'lt;' for code sections. This is probably a data entry problem though. But whatever wiki engine is chosen it has to handle this properly. Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle it right? What alternate wiki do you suggest? Lenard René Dudfield wrote: hi, the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list. The internet is a bug tracker. I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means: http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us. The current pygame wiki just uses simple html. So should be fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html. Since most programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi, very detailed emails from Marcus and Nicholas... a few related points below. I'd be interested in knowing what jug, and orcun think of using Django? Also what they think of a cherrypy based stack? Also, what are the preferences of Lenard, Devon, pymike, and anyone else who is interested in contributing? Please state the level of commitment you're willing to make, and also which option(s) you'd be happy using. - The main author of cherrypy(Robert Brewer) said he'd help us with any major issues we had, and so did some other cherrypy mailing list people. The cherrypy mailing list is also more active than the pygame one, so I'm sure we won't have any issues with docs or help. - documentation is extensive for cherrypy(it's a 10 year old project, in it's third generation). - we would have to choose a stack. The stack Nicholas mentioned seems pretty common, cherrypy + sqlalchemy + genshi + formencode/formalchemy + pygame of course for imaging... and joysick control of the website. So that is the stack we would be chosing. - cherrypy code seems cleaner... as it's just python objects. class MySite(object): def index(self): return hello world! def news(self, id=None): if id is None: return main_news() else: return specific_news(id) index.exposed = True news.exposed = True This creates these urls by default: / /index /news /news/10 /news?id=10 - cherrypy has less code compared to django, and is changing less. - django is usually run using apache modpython or mod_wsgi, or even with cherrypy(or other wsgi server). They don't recommend using the bundled django webserver. Whereas cherrypy is considered one of, if not the best python web servers. With cherrypy you use the same webserver for development, and for production. - you can run cherrypy inside a pygame application. Cherrypy doesn't control the main loop if you don't want it to. - there are more wsgi components than there are pinax apps. Also pinax apps should theoretically be able to play with wsgi. I'm pretty sure you can use django apps as wsgi components now too. On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Nicholas Dudfield ndudfi...@gmail.comwrote: I do not know anything about cherrypy, so here're some relevant questions for both frameworks: * How good is the integration of a wiki solution and maybe bug tracking system without implementing it ourselves? * How good is the integration of other components, which might be necessary in the future? * How much effort has to be put into it to add new features? Is it just about adding/enabling a component or writing a whole bunch of code? * What is the key difference between cherrypy (denoted as HTTP framework) and Django (web framework)? I have a little bit of experience with CherryPy and a tiny tiny bit of experience with Django. Here is my 2.0 cents. A while back I read a considerable amount about python frameworks before choosing CherryPy I say I chose CherryPy but that wasn't really the case. That choice was made for me. I did however choose further components to extend CherryPy with after becoming frustrated with `raw` CherryPy and a `raw` DB2 api. Making pages by concatenating strings is horrible and very resistant to change. You really want a templating system of some sort where you can integrate designers changes nicely or have them do it themselves (concurrently) You also want to be able to apply any special features your editor has for editing html. Even PHP is better in this respect than `raw` CherryPy for anything beyond a `Hello World` toy site. Enter overwhelming array of choices. Then you have to find a way of integrating the templating system with CherryPy. You'll find you want an ORM/query builder soon enough as writing your own (again using string building, you just want a small simple one) proves to be distracting. Any time you want a feature requiring something beyond your home- baked lib you have to code something up and write tests for it. Form handling? Do you want to write a form validation library? No? Spend some time searching for a good one *with a future*. Pagination? Email? I literally copy/pasted then modified the code from Django for the latter two. In short, you end up writing an ad-hoc glue framework on top of CherryPy. With just one person working on it, you can get away without writing a heap of tests and documentation. With multiple people working on it you'd really need to to make sure everyone is on the same page. Choosing CherryPy won't just be a matter of choosing it and running with it, it'll also be a matter of choosing more components, how to integrate them and documenting it. An advantage of doing it this way, not to be understated, is that you'll learn how to use those components individually and can apply them elsewhere. From what I have read, each of the components in the Django
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used. I have no real interest in learning it. If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very good case for using CherryPy. As time permits I might be able to help somewhat if a CherryPy stack is used. I personally much prefer CherryPy + Co over what I have seen of Django but I doubt I'll be contributing much compared to others. Hi, very detailed emails from Marcus and Nicholas... a few related points below. I'd be interested in knowing what jug, and orcun think of using Django? Also what they think of a cherrypy based stack? Also, what are the preferences of Lenard, Devon, pymike, and anyone else who is interested in contributing? Please state the level of commitment you're willing to make, and also which option(s) you'd be happy using. - The main author of cherrypy(Robert Brewer) said he'd help us with any major issues we had, and so did some other cherrypy mailing list people. The cherrypy mailing list is also more active than the pygame one, so I'm sure we won't have any issues with docs or help. - documentation is extensive for cherrypy(it's a 10 year old project, in it's third generation). - we would have to choose a stack. The stack Nicholas mentioned seems pretty common, cherrypy + sqlalchemy + genshi + formencode/formalchemy + pygame of course for imaging... and joysick control of the website. So that is the stack we would be chosing. - cherrypy code seems cleaner... as it's just python objects. class MySite(object): def index(self): return hello world! def news(self, id=None): if id is None: return main_news() else: return specific_news(id) index.exposed = True news.exposed = True This creates these urls by default: / /index /news /news/10 /news?id=10 - cherrypy has less code compared to django, and is changing less. - django is usually run using apache modpython or mod_wsgi, or even with cherrypy(or other wsgi server). They don't recommend using the bundled django webserver. Whereas cherrypy is considered one of, if not the best python web servers. With cherrypy you use the same webserver for development, and for production. - you can run cherrypy inside a pygame application. Cherrypy doesn't control the main loop if you don't want it to. - there are more wsgi components than there are pinax apps. Also pinax apps should theoretically be able to play with wsgi. I'm pretty sure you can use django apps as wsgi components now too.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
On, Fri Apr 24, 2009, Rene Dudfield wrote: [...] Also, is it possible to do this at google code instead? http://code.google.com/p/pygame/ Sounds reasonable - google already has the whole functionality for the project, Julian currently hosts privately. It might be good to use google's wiki there and a seperate website SVN branch. Especially since the final system could be adopted by other community-driven projects. Also lots of people already have google accounts on there, and it's not hosted on someones personal server. Keeping it separate from the main pygame svn makes sense, since it's probably going to be a separate group of people, and also it's fairly easy to allow access to it. After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might make the most sense: SVN hosting on google. Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on dev.pygame.org. Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on different domains as it is at the moment. dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a planning and early development state and the trac system running there can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted elsewhere (google, pygame, ...). In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website. For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either) pygame project. We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.org and wherever else. Regards Marcus pgpcQIJeqnXnQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
On, Sat Apr 25, 2009, Nicholas Dudfield wrote: I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used. I have no real interest in learning it. If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very good case for using CherryPy. Well, I'd like to keep the decision those, who will do the major work on the whole website system, which probably will be Julian and Orcun. If they both say, Django is their preferred target system (and the GSoC proposals were written that way) as they have a lot of expertise, we should not insist on CherryPy :-). Regards Marcus pgpeybUYTDnYX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Marcus von Appen wrote: Well, I'd like to keep the decision those, who will do the major work on the whole website system, which probably will be Julian and Orcun. I am in complete agreeance. Happy programmers are motivated and programmers./ /
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
On, Sat Apr 25, 2009, Nicholas Dudfield wrote: I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used. I have no real interest in learning it. If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very good case for using CherryPy. Well, I'd like to keep the decision those, who will do the major work on the whole website system, which probably will be Julian and Orcun. If they both say, Django is their preferred target system (and the GSoC proposals were written that way) as they have a lot of expertise, we should not insist on CherryPy :-). Regards Marcus Happy programmers are motivated and *productive* programmers I meant to write but I had a brain malfunction.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hello, I'm kinda amazed about some points: 1) Did anyone read my concept? Some of the discussed ideas here I had before but no one cared. 2) I created a trac an you said nice! and created a Google project. 3) This project was an gsoc candidate and AFAIK all applicants wanted to use Django. At least 2 of them (Orcun and me) would like to do it even without google. Now you say let's do it with cherrypy because you don't know Django. Hm. I my view, both - Django and cherrypy - are mighty enough for our needs, thus its a relig. question of faith. But you asked so to do it. So, here we are! We have time and (only) want to do it with Django, cause we don't know cherrypy as you don't know Django. Maybe here are some php-experts why do it with php? 4) Even if you don't know Django, you can participate by helping to develop the concept, writing specific requirements, care about design, read the old code, transfer it and write new templates (Django templates are really easy to learn). If we use Trac the way things are going, there will be some work on adapting it by editing the Trac templates and style to make it fit into the whole page. Then, care about plugins that could be useful or necessary (auth, notification, feeds, irc-announcer, ...). Be sure you can help us even when using Django for the backend. Regards Jug PS, well, I'm a slow writer, so I agree with Marcus.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Marcus von Appen wrote: On, Sat Apr 25, 2009, Nicholas Dudfield wrote: I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used. I have no real interest in learning it. If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very good case for using CherryPy. Well, I'd like to keep the decision those, who will do the major work on the whole website system, which probably will be Julian and Orcun. If they both say, Django is their preferred target system (and the GSoC proposals were written that way) as they have a lot of expertise, we should not insist on CherryPy :-). Regards Marcus In full: I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used. I have no real interest in learning it. If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very good case for using CherryPy. *As time permits I might* be able to help somewhat if a CherryPy stack is used. I personally much prefer CherryPy + Co over what I have seen of Django *but I doubt I'll be contributing much compared to others.* I actually took time out of my day to argue the case for using Django.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
There's one problem remaining. One of the few weaknesses of Django is that it does not support subdomains. Thus, pygame.org/dev would be much easier to handle. To concretize, please specify the structure again. What would Trac be used for? Replace the current wiki and add a ticket system for bug-tracing and more (enhancements, etc)? So, the rough structure would be Django - News - Flatpages - Projects Trac - Wiki - Ticket system - code browser - (maybe more?) I'm going to test the django-trac thing today. If we use now my Trac please try to keep the concept up to date and edit it with our discussion results. - Jug http://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/weakness.html
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Intresting, I just start to study Django, I think it is really a nice tools. -- From: jug j...@fantasymail.de Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:26 PM To: pygame-users@seul.org Subject: Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite There's one problem remaining. One of the few weaknesses of Django is that it does not support subdomains. Thus, pygame.org/dev would be much easier to handle. To concretize, please specify the structure again. What would Trac be used for? Replace the current wiki and add a ticket system for bug-tracing and more (enhancements, etc)? So, the rough structure would be Django - News - Flatpages - Projects Trac - Wiki - Ticket system - code browser - (maybe more?) I'm going to test the django-trac thing today. If we use now my Trac please try to keep the concept up to date and edit it with our discussion results. - Jug http://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/weakness.html
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
jug wrote: snip / One of the few weaknesses of Django is that it does not support subdomains. Thus, pygame.org/dev would be much easier to handle. snip / Unless I misunderstood, everybody was saying that someone should create a subdomain with the server administrator tools and simply run Django from there. I don't think they want Django running in the top-level web directory and creating a dev subdomain. If you're saying that Django can't be confined to a single directory and that it must be run from the top-level web directory, I have nothing to add. Regards, Evan Kroske
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Marcus von Appen wrote: After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might make the most sense: SVN hosting on google. Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on dev.pygame.org. Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on different domains as it is at the moment. dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a planning and early development state and the trac system running there can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted elsewhere (google, pygame, ...). In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website. For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either) pygame project. We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.org and wherever else. Keeping the web site development on a separate site, google, seem appropriate for now. I have just been looking again at Trac and at first it looks like a good choice. The wiki has a clean markup that accepts Python code without mangling it. But I have two questions. One, how easy will it be to import the existing Pygame wiki pages into Trac? Two, can we really use the Trac with the Web SVN and Pygame SVN? (*) Lenard (*) I believe no to the first, yes to the second (http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall#OptionalRequirements).
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
All I have to add to this is that having real bug tracking integrated with the SVN is a huge plus and if possible, should be put into place as soon as possible. That is, having Trac up on dev.pygame.org before starting the web development work for use with both the website project and Pygame in general would be nice. I really dislike the Bugzilla we are currently using, and judging by the lack of activity on it, I imagine many others do too. Nirav On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net wrote: Marcus von Appen wrote: After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might make the most sense: SVN hosting on google. Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on dev.pygame.org. Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on different domains as it is at the moment. dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a planning and early development state and the trac system running there can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted elsewhere (google, pygame, ...). In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website. For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either) pygame project. We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.org and wherever else. Keeping the web site development on a separate site, google, seem appropriate for now. I have just been looking again at Trac and at first it looks like a good choice. The wiki has a clean markup that accepts Python code without mangling it. But I have two questions. One, how easy will it be to import the existing Pygame wiki pages into Trac? Two, can we really use the Trac with the Web SVN and Pygame SVN? (*) Lenard (*) I believe no to the first, yes to the second (http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall#OptionalRequirements).
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
I agree that a Pygame bug tracker on the Pygame site is a priority. Trac looks good for that. The wiki will be useful as well. But the Trac subversion features will be useless with a google SVN for the web site development. So we will have to use whatever google offers. But I believe we can set it up for Pygame's SVN. Lenard Nirav Patel wrote: All I have to add to this is that having real bug tracking integrated with the SVN is a huge plus and if possible, should be put into place as soon as possible. That is, having Trac up on dev.pygame.org before starting the web development work for use with both the website project and Pygame in general would be nice. I really dislike the Bugzilla we are currently using, and judging by the lack of activity on it, I imagine many others do too. Nirav On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Lenard Lindstrom le...@telus.net wrote: Marcus von Appen wrote: After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might make the most sense: SVN hosting on google. Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on dev.pygame.org. Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on different domains as it is at the moment. dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a planning and early development state and the trac system running there can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted elsewhere (google, pygame, ...). In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website. For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either) pygame project. We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.org and wherever else. Keeping the web site development on a separate site, google, seem appropriate for now. I have just been looking again at Trac and at first it looks like a good choice. The wiki has a clean markup that accepts Python code without mangling it. But I have two questions. One, how easy will it be to import the existing Pygame wiki pages into Trac? Two, can we really use the Trac with the Web SVN and Pygame SVN? (*) Lenard (*) I believe no to the first, yes to the second (http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall#OptionalRequirements).
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi, Analyzing the current page in detail is a good aspect to exchange the site without any problems. Do we need to run and modify the current page or is enough to read the code? Then you could send it to me and I'll upload it to the page (I think we don't need it in SVN, do we?). Sure, we could do that at google code but first I think, Tracs better (and looks nicer) for developing with the community and then we could run the new website from SVM there so everyone can always have a look at the latest version and test it. And you normally don't get an confirmation email. Just register and login. Regards Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
hi, very awesome of you to go ahead with this... I read through your website... and it's got some good ideas... It'll be cool if we can make pygame one of the best sites around in the python scene again... the current one is from around 2005... and has been really good so far. Rewriting the current functionality in python first could be a good way to go. Once the current site is replicated, then move on to other stuff. All the old stuff needs to be written at some point... because we need to keep all the old urls around (including feeds). Also it's easier for people to work towards something that exists, rather than working towards a new design. Another benefit of remaking the existing website will be to understand the features of the current site. Remember, the main focus of the website should be peoples projects... especially updated projects. With all the other stuff coming after that. First steps are to agree on a way forward... but if we go with remaking the existing site... we could follow this path: - prepare html/php/sql from old site. - get old site running outside of the main pygame.org so people can test it easily. - decide on which tools we are to use. The main ones from people interested seem to be a django, or a cherrypy based site. - start writing the models for the various tables, and data types in existing site (eg, project, user, wiki page, etc). - collect a list of existing urls. - collect a list of existing functionality. - collect a list of html/php pages to convert to templates. - start working on list of functionality, and templates until it is complete. - put site up for people to test on a test domain eg test.pygame.org - replace existing website on pygame.org, and make sure it works ok. - END. then can work on adding new stuff. We can even make some basic functional tests to start with based on the output of existing urls. eg, grab the html from a wiki page from the existing site, and then compare it to our new website. Also, is it possible to do this at google code instead? http://code.google.com/p/pygame/ What does everyone think of this? cheers, On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:35 AM, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: Hello, to organize the development process, I've set up a SVN-repo and a small Trac at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/ You'll find there a first concept and you can take part in developing it by adding your ideas. Some of the point are completely to work out, so just have a look. If you have a complete concept for one of the points (eg the design) create a new wiki page and add a link. If you would like to participate in developing, add yourself to the list on the start page and provide some information like I did. I've done the setup on the quick so if there are any problems with Trac or you need more rights, please email me. Regards, Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hello! The two main priorities, imho, would be 1) documentation up to date with code 2) a wiki for additional documentation, examples, build instructions on various platforms, etc. The project content could be easily transfered to wiki too. It might not be better than a full database interface, but it's sufficient and easy to maintain. Also, there are already api doc generators for Python and good wiki's, so no extra code would be written, only a build script for automating the process. As a bonus, if we can generate API docs for specific versions that would be a huge help. /Peter On 2009-04-21 (Tue) 22:38, jug wrote: Hello, Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to do the pygame website rewrite. Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there can not only be one student/participant, it would be cool to work together and combine forces. Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging multiple implementing-/design ideas may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you are interested. Regards Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Have a look at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/Concept Most of your points are already listed there. Add new ones so we get an overview. Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hello, On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:56 PM, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: Hi, Analyzing the current page in detail is a good aspect to exchange the site without any problems. Do we need to run and modify the current page or is enough to read the code? Then you could send it to me and I'll upload it to the page (I think we don't need it in SVN, do we?). yeah, you're right. I think reading the current code is likely good enough. Phil sent me a tar.gz with the website code... I have to finish going through it to make sure there's no passwords, or peoples private information in there. Then I'll upload it soonest so you can have a look through it. Marcus, when I'm done looking through it, can I send it to you to have a quick double check for private info? I'll have to do the same with the database data... get rid of email addresses etc before upload. Sure, we could do that at google code but first I think, Tracs better (and looks nicer) for developing with the community and then we could run the new website from SVM there so everyone can always have a look at the latest version and test it. And you normally don't get an confirmation email. Just register and login. Regards Jug Sorry, I think we're going to have to go with the google code website. Because it's got all the nice account management, which a lot of people have accounts with already... and it kind of seems safer hosted there. As a bonus though, you won't need to administer it. I have added these people to the http://code.google.com/p/pygame/ jug, pymike, marcus, nicholas, orcun, ian Just with your google account email address on this mailing list... if you want to use another email address please send it over. If anyone else wants to help with the website, please send me your google account email address off the mailing list to my email address directly (you can use non-google emails for your google account). cheers,
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hellos, On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:06 PM, m...@sysfault.org wrote: René Dudfield ren...@gmail.com: hi, very awesome of you to go ahead with this... I read through your website... and it's got some good ideas... It'll be cool if we can make pygame one of the best sites around in the python scene again... the current one is from around 2005... and has been really good so far. Well, the colours started to hit some nerves for me, so it might be better to go with some pastel colour palette for the new one :-). yeah, perhaps. We should probably have the graphical design as a separate step. So we can choose the best design made available. Rewriting the current functionality in python first could be a good way to go. Once the current site is replicated, then move on to other stuff. All the old stuff needs to be written at some point... because we need to keep all the old urls around (including feeds). Also it's easier for people Is there a way to have some easy to manage URL rewriting/forwarding in Django? That way we could let existing URLS resolve to the new stuff (e.g. place the currently static html sites into the DB and link to them). Almost all web toolkits have decent url schemes, and rewriters. It can also be done at the apache, and wsgi levels too. The current website has a pretty good system... where it uses a database of rewrite rules editable through the web in the management system... but we can easily use mod_rewrite or whatever we need. I don't think we have agreed on Django specifically yet. At least pymike, and I have suggested using cherrypy. Also I know Nicholas has made the last few websites he worked on with cherrypy. So we should decide this based on what the contributors to the website feel is best, and also the people who will maintain it. to work towards something that exists, rather than working towards a new design. A new design is necessary in my opinion. Colours, overall style, etc. The functionality though needs to stay the same (with improvements all over the place). Sure, but that can happen after the current one is updated. It's much easier to make design as a separate stage. So when reimplementing it we have the current website as a reference. With a new graphical design coming afterwards(or designed separately in parallel). First steps are to agree on a way forward... but if we go with remaking the existing site... we could follow this path: - prepare html/php/sql from old site. - get old site running outside of the main pygame.org so people can test it easily. The current one is already around and was widely tested. Or do I miss something here? Yeah, that can be used for lots of things... but not all. So as to test things without messing up the main website... eg adding projects, wiki pages, news etc. Maybe we don't really need to do this... and can just look at the code mostly. - decide on which tools we are to use. The main ones from people interested seem to be a django, or a cherrypy based site. - start writing the models for the various tables, and data types in existing site (eg, project, user, wiki page, etc). - collect a list of existing urls. - collect a list of existing functionality. - collect a list of html/php pages to convert to templates. - start working on list of functionality, and templates until it is complete. Sounds good to me. Though I'd go with the existing functionality first. The existing URLs and such are things to be considered for a final migration. Thus I would move this to the end: - put site up for people to test on a test domain eg test.pygame.org - work out migration plan: - migrate projects and static content - add functionality for eixsting URL handling - replace existing website on pygame.org, and make sure it works ok. - END. then can work on adding new stuff. Otherwise it might easily happen to limit the new system in some areas due to the existing structure. Working out the migration can happen in parallel to the test phase. Letting people test is nothing, which should keep you on a 24/7 work load, so while anyone plays around with it, you can work on the necessary conversion system. Yeah good point. We will need to make sure the existing data can be put into the new website at some point. It can be easy to take the existing database and just use that. This is quite easy to do with things like sqlalchemy and the like. So to decide which way we go, we should study the database structure to see if it is ok. Migrating the data is probably easiest if we use the existing database directly. The wiki code is mostly html, so isn't that hard to convert. Also, is it possible to do this at google code instead? http://code.google.com/p/pygame/ Sounds reasonable - google already has the whole functionality for the project, Julian currently hosts privately. It might be good to use google's
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Couldn't the color scheme be user configurable? Allow the user choose among several options then track the choice with a cookie. René Dudfield wrote: Hellos, On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:06 PM, m...@sysfault.org mailto:m...@sysfault.org wrote: The current one is already around and was widely tested. Or do I miss something here? Yeah, that can be used for lots of things... but not all. So as to test things without messing up the main website... eg adding projects, wiki pages, news etc. Maybe we don't really need to do this... and can just look at the code mostly.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
On, Fri Apr 24, 2009, Rene Dudfield wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:06 PM, m...@sysfault.org wrote: René Dudfield ren...@gmail.com: [...] All the old stuff needs to be written at some point... because we need to keep all the old urls around (including feeds). Also it's easier for people Is there a way to have some easy to manage URL rewriting/forwarding in Django? That way we could let existing URLS resolve to the new stuff (e.g. place the currently static html sites into the DB and link to them). Almost all web toolkits have decent url schemes, and rewriters. It can also be done at the apache, and wsgi levels too. The current website has a pretty good system... where it uses a database of rewrite rules editable through the web in the management system... but we can easily use mod_rewrite or whatever we need. I don't think we have agreed on Django specifically yet. At least pymike, and I have suggested using cherrypy. Also I know Nicholas has made the last few websites he worked on with cherrypy. So we should decide this based on what the contributors to the website feel is best, and also the people who will maintain it. I do not know anything about cherrypy, so here're some relevant questions for both frameworks: * How good is the integration of a wiki solution and maybe bug tracking system without implementing it ourselves? * How good is the integration of other components, which might be necessary in the future? * How much effort has to be put into it to add new features? Is it just about adding/enabling a component or writing a whole bunch of code? * What is the key difference between cherrypy (denoted as HTTP framework) and Django (web framework)? It can be easy to take the existing database and just use that. This is quite easy to do with things like sqlalchemy and the like. Absolutely no, I'd say. Did you put a look at its contents recently? ;-) It'd be better to go with a new, clean database (and structure) and write a set of SQL scripts to migrate the necessary data instead of taking over anything. Regards Marcus pgpUWcuomRsTX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
I do not know anything about cherrypy, so here're some relevant questions for both frameworks: * How good is the integration of a wiki solution and maybe bug tracking system without implementing it ourselves? * How good is the integration of other components, which might be necessary in the future? * How much effort has to be put into it to add new features? Is it just about adding/enabling a component or writing a whole bunch of code? * What is the key difference between cherrypy (denoted as HTTP framework) and Django (web framework)? I have a little bit of experience with CherryPy and a tiny tiny bit of experience with Django. Here is my 2.0 cents. A while back I read a considerable amount about python frameworks before choosing CherryPy I say I chose CherryPy but that wasn't really the case. That choice was made for me. I did however choose further components to extend CherryPy with after becoming frustrated with `raw` CherryPy and a `raw` DB2 api. Making pages by concatenating strings is horrible and very resistant to change. You really want a templating system of some sort where you can integrate designers changes nicely or have them do it themselves (concurrently) You also want to be able to apply any special features your editor has for editing html. Even PHP is better in this respect than `raw` CherryPy for anything beyond a `Hello World` toy site. Enter overwhelming array of choices. Then you have to find a way of integrating the templating system with CherryPy. You'll find you want an ORM/query builder soon enough as writing your own (again using string building, you just want a small simple one) proves to be distracting. Any time you want a feature requiring something beyond your home- baked lib you have to code something up and write tests for it. Form handling? Do you want to write a form validation library? No? Spend some time searching for a good one *with a future*. Pagination? Email? I literally copy/pasted then modified the code from Django for the latter two. In short, you end up writing an ad-hoc glue framework on top of CherryPy. With just one person working on it, you can get away without writing a heap of tests and documentation. With multiple people working on it you'd really need to to make sure everyone is on the same page. Choosing CherryPy won't just be a matter of choosing it and running with it, it'll also be a matter of choosing more components, how to integrate them and documenting it. An advantage of doing it this way, not to be understated, is that you'll learn how to use those components individually and can apply them elsewhere. From what I have read, each of the components in the Django stack have superior respective stand alone alternatives. eg Django ORM is almost univerally agreed upon to be inferior to SQLAlchemy Peronally I have used this stack for a few sites: Request/Response/Server: CherryPy ORM + Query Generator:SQLAlchemy Form Handling:FormEncode Templating: Genshi Image Manipulation: PIL If I needed to learn TurboGears 2 or Pylons for some reason then I'd already know many of the pieces. SQLAlchemy, FormEncode, Genshi. If I need to use database access for anything then SQLAlchemy is very useful. You can introspect existing databases easily and then just define the relations with a few lines of code. ( sqlalchemy.ext.sqlsoup ) If you define your schema in python then you can automatically build the tables to whatever database you like. SQLLite is useful for in memory test databases. If I wanted to for some reason create dynamic and perfectly valid xhtml based documents( say for converting to pdf format with Prince XML) then Genshi would be hanging at my toolbelt. If I want to make a TRAC plugin I know how to use its templating language. (The main TRAC developer also designed Genshi ) CherryPy itself has a Tool system for integrating third party components and for abstracting code into reusable `filters`. Builtin Tools include unicode codecs, gzip encoding, json encoding, header modifiers and the like. It has quite a nice configuration framework supporting multiple deployment environments and allows you to target filters right down to the exact page handler. It is a great foundation to build upon with many points of extensibility. Pure WSGI (which CherryPy fully supports) is less granular as far as `middleware`. However you *will* end up having to create a framework, whether it be consciously written or it just evolves naturally from factoring out duplicate code. Needless to say, the first attempts will be pretty horrible. This, on top of writing the actual site. The potential advantage to Django is that you are walking a well travelled road and it is well documented. And as it's a full stack framework all the documentation is in one place, likewise with the `community`. The #django irc channel almost rivals #python
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hello, to organize the development process, I've set up a SVN-repo and a small Trac at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/ You'll find there a first concept and you can take part in developing it by adding your ideas. Some of the point are completely to work out, so just have a look. If you have a complete concept for one of the points (eg the design) create a new wiki page and add a link. If you would like to participate in developing, add yourself to the list on the start page and provide some information like I did. I've done the setup on the quick so if there are any problems with Trac or you need more rights, please email me. Regards, Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
I'd like to help on the graphics side, the current site kind of looks like the python threw up all over the place. --- On Tue, 4/21/09, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: From: jug j...@fantasymail.de Subject: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite To: pygame-users@seul.org Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:38 PM Hello, Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to do the pygame website rewrite. Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there can not only be one student/participant, it would be cool to work together and combine forces. Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging multiple implementing-/design ideas may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you are interested. Regards Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
LOL, you nailed it right on the head. On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Devon Scott-Tunkin djvonfun...@yahoo.comwrote: I'd like to help on the graphics side, the current site kind of looks like the python threw up all over the place. --- On Tue, 4/21/09, jug j...@fantasymail.de wrote: From: jug j...@fantasymail.de Subject: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite To: pygame-users@seul.org Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:38 PM Hello, Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to do the pygame website rewrite. Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there can not only be one student/participant, it would be cool to work together and combine forces. Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging multiple implementing-/design ideas may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you are interested. Regards Jug -- - pymike
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
I had applied to same project too. I was thinking same idea it can be good to work with a team. I'd like to join. 2009/4/21 jug j...@fantasymail.de Hello, Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to do the pygame website rewrite. Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there can not only be one student/participant, it would be cool to work together and combine forces. Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging multiple implementing-/design ideas may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you are interested. Regards Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hoi, Tobad that the rewrite of the pygame website wasn't accepted as a GSUC project. But I think it would be a good idea to rewrite the site anyway, since the current site is a bit outdated. Maybe someone should put up a project page (wiki?). Here are some random ideas: * I really like the django site, since the code is available under GPL we can base our site on that consept. code: http://code.djangoproject.com/browser/djangoproject.com * I think Trac would be usefull replacement for the current wiki and viewcvs, maybe in combination with git? http://nanosleep.org/proj/trac-git-plugin/ * A better separation between documentation, news, projects and development. Grtz On 21-apr-09, at 22:38, jug wrote: Hello, Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to do the pygame website rewrite. Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there can not only be one student/participant, it would be cool to work together and combine forces. Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging multiple implementing-/design ideas may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you are interested. Regards Jug
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Hi, Certainly revisions are in order. As a personal opinion, I like the general layout/theme as is--but things like the documentation are out-of-date and faulty (for example, http://www.pygame.org/docs/ does not link to pygame.color, among other modules). A few projects have been in the spotlight on the main page for months, etc. Ian
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
Is the current documentation dynamic through the current release? 2009/4/22 Ian Mallett geometr...@gmail.com for example, http://www.pygame.org/docs/ does not link to pygame.color, among other modules Ian
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
I don't know, but I think so. You have to click on some of the modules to get the correct toolbar on top, though.
Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
The on-site documentation isn't automatically updated. Though it would be nice, it has become a lesser priority since the documentation is now bundled with the Pygame installer. For Python 1.9 just go into site-packages/pygame/docs to find them. Lenard Ian Mallett wrote: I don't know, but I think so. You have to click on some of the modules to get the correct toolbar on top, though.
Re: [pygame] Pygame website suggestions
Could we please have persistent login cookies? I keep forgetting to log in (as do other prominent pygame people wink) and thus wiki edits are coming up as Anonymous. Also, could the wiki recentchanges list please link to the *exposed* version of the page *OR* could reversion actions please be put in the recentchanges list. I've gone to revert the About page fubar'ing a few times now. Clicking from recentchanges brings up the broken version, but going ot the history indicates it's been reverted. Clicking on View confirms that. Richard
Re: [pygame] Pygame website suggestions
Sure, I've added those to my TODO, along with your request for comment moderation. I'll be doing a web site update along with the upcoming pygame 1.8 release, (as I'm doing some maint to the documentation html+css then.) I'll probably get most of these items at that time as well. PhilRichard Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could we please have persistent login cookies? I keep forgetting to log in (as do other prominent pygame people ) and thus wiki edits are coming up as Anonymous.Also, could the wiki recentchanges list please link to the *exposed* version of the page *OR* could reversion actions please be put in the recentchanges list. I've gone to revert the "About" page fubar'ing a few times now. Clicking from recentchanges brings up the broken version, but going ot the history indicates it's been reverted. Clicking on View confirms that.Richard Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
Re: [pygame] Pygame website suggestions
On 8/17/06, Luke Paireepinart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you think 1.8 will be out for Pyweek? I know it's probably most important to you two (Richard runs pyweek and Phil always competes) so what's the lowdown? I asked this question in this mailing list earlier and no one replied. Why didn't anyone reply? Was the question annoying? Did you not notice it? Did it not go through at all? Thanks, I can only think of two people who might answer that question (Illume and Pete), perhaps they haven't had time to read the list for a few days? Even if 1.8 is released in time, it may be that not everyone will be able to use it, there might be unknown bugs etc. It might be wiser to use 1.7 for pyweek. -Sw.
Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
I find pygame has no big change many years,I hope it increase more features,such as alpha render,additive render,These is very useful to make a cooI game screen,On 7/12/06, René Dudfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Weird.I think that person just copied in a link to a DSL provider,and to lance-tech which is Phils company (I think).I've removed the links for now, but left the image.I'm not sure howto email the owner though. On 7/12/06, spotter . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I suppose one improvement in the website is to add some spamming control. Just a few minutes ago, I saw this game that looked new, so when I clicked it it took me to http://www.pygame.org/projects/22/266/?release_id=411 It looks like someone tried to spam some links, cause the description of the game doesnt seem to go with the picture and the links lead to random websites. great site otherwise, thanks for all your hardwork! I would be really lost without it. -spotter.-- http://www.flyaflya.com powered by pygame+python
Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
On Wed, 2006-07-12 at 16:48 +0800, flyaflya wrote: I find pygame has no big change many years,I hope it increase more features,such as alpha render,additive render,These is very useful to make a cooI game screen, The SDL library has also been slow with new features lately. Work has begun on an all new version, with support for things like multiple windows. When that is released there should be a new Pygame also with lots of new features. http://www.libsdl.org/news.php
Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
Hey, I suppose one improvement in the website is to add some spamming control. Just a few minutes ago, I saw this game that looked new, so when I clicked it it took me to http://www.pygame.org/projects/22/266/?release_id=411 It looks like someone tried to spam some links, cause the description of the game doesnt seem to go with the picture and the links lead to random websites. great site otherwise, thanks for all your hardwork! I would be really lost without it. -spotter.
Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
Weird. I think that person just copied in a link to a DSL provider, and to lance-tech which is Phils company (I think). I've removed the links for now, but left the image. I'm not sure how to email the owner though. On 7/12/06, spotter . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I suppose one improvement in the website is to add some spamming control. Just a few minutes ago, I saw this game that looked new, so when I clicked it it took me to http://www.pygame.org/projects/22/266/?release_id=411 It looks like someone tried to spam some links, cause the description of the game doesnt seem to go with the picture and the links lead to random websites. great site otherwise, thanks for all your hardwork! I would be really lost without it. -spotter.
RE: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
I've noticed a few bugs with the Pygame documentation on the site. I'm far from a pygame-pro so these may be deprecated features or me just misunderstanding things, not knowing where to look, etc., but I've noticed the following: #1 The Scrap topic link doesn't show up in the header on this page: http://www.pygame.org/docs/ But it will appear when you click any of the other topic links in the header (pygame, font, draw, etc.). #2 Googling for certain keywords, I can find the two links below (color constants), but I can't find any way to navigate to these pages from the main documentation link (http://www.pygame.org/docs/) http://www.pygame.org/docs/ref/pygame_color.html http://www.pygame.org/docs/ref/pygame_constants.html #3 There is some potential for odd formatting when a method's documentation contains a link to another method (ex: the docs for pygame.mixer.init refer to pygame.init, pygame.mixer.pre_init and pygame.mixer.quit). It looks like the method that is referred to gets its short description copied into the text with a smaller font after the method name. Good idea, but this can be difficult when reading along. Hard to tell what is plain text and what is the referenced method's short description. Can you put the short description in parenthesis or something to make it clear that the short description isn't meant to be read along with the sentence? Certain browser settings format the short description almost identically to the regular documentation (I usually use Opera and it is difficult to tell at a glance the text is different. IE does a bit better). This makes it even more difficult to differentiate between the two. FWIW, looking at the html source, these references are enclosed in tt tags with the short description getting a font size=-1. Hope that makes sense. Feel free to ask for clarification if necessary... Great site! Keep it up! I'd be lost w/out this site! -Scott Hey, It's been one year since I launched the new pygame website. I hope to have a bit of time during the next month to do some updates to it. So if anyone has: - bug reports - feature requests - etc To suggest, now's the time! If anyone makes a feature request that you think is great, please reply to their message and say so -- the more people want a feature the more likely I'll be to implement it.
Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
On Sat, Jul 08, 2006 at 06:52:26AM -0700, Phil Hassey wrote: Hey, Hi, It's been one year since I launched the new pygame website. I hope to have a bit of time during the next month to do some updates to it. So if anyone has: And a fantastic job you've done too :) - bug reports - feature requests - etc Feature Request #1: * RSS Feeds (I'd love to be able to get a feed of the latest developments and additions of new pygame games) cheers James -- -- -Problems are Solved by Method - - James Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED] - HomePage: http://shortcircuit.net.au/~prologic/ - Phone: +61732166379 - Mobile: +61404270962 - Skype: therealprologic - MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ICQ: 9663 - IRC: irc://shortcircuit.net.au#se Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
Allow comments on the projects. +1 on RSS feeds. On 7/8/06, Phil Hassey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, It's been one year since I launched the new pygame website. I hope to have a bit of time during the next month to do some updates to it. So if anyone has: - bug reports - feature requests - etc To suggest, now's the time! If anyone makes a feature request that you think is great, please reply to their message and say so -- the more people want a feature the more likely I'll be to implement it. Thanks! Phil Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
I have a suggestion: Put help tutorials documentation on one page + subpages and call it help, for that is what you are looking for when you're stuck and need to read up on the documentation. And through in a pygame cookbook. There are now tutorial links under both tutorials and documentation. Otherwise it is a nice homepage /Mikael Moutakis Sweden 2006/7/8, Phil Hassey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey, It's been one year since I launched the new pygame website. I hope to have a bit of time during the next month to do some updates to it. So if anyone has: - bug reports - feature requests - etc To suggest, now's the time! If anyone makes a feature request that you think is great, please reply to their message and say so -- the more people want a feature the more likely I'll be to implement it. Thanks! Phil Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions
Hi, On 7/8/06, Mikael Moutakis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a suggestion: Put help tutorials documentation on one page + subpages and call it help, for that is what you are looking for when you're stuck and need to read up on the documentation. And through in a pygame cookbook. That's a good suggestion. I didn't see the difference between documentation and tutorials. And that's for sure: The searched document is always on the other page. ;-) Greetings Kai
