Re: new user registration

[Uwe Steinfeld]

Hello Thomas,

On 2007-07-18 you wrote:


> So, unless you want OTFE or need to use Voyager, there are no
> unlocked features in the Home version. Or am I wrong?

I think, you're right. There is a pro vs. home section on the Ritlabs
web page:

http://www.ritlabs.com/en/products/thebat/diff.php

Greetings
Uwe
--
Using The Bat! v3.99.8 on Windows XP 5.1 Build  2600 Service Pack 2




Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: new user registration

[Roelof Otten]

Hallo Thomas,

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 00:39:58 +0700GMT (18-7-2007, 19:39 +0200, where I
live), you wrote:

RO The only difference between the home and pro versions is that some
RO features are unlocked by the pro license, both use the same
RO executable.

TF>>> Which features would that be?
RO>> OTFE comes to mind.
TF> I don't like that, because it's a proprietory encryption.

Well, YMMV
BTW Using OTFE disables the option to store attachments outside the
message base, so that might be another reason not to use OTFE.

RO>> Oh and the pro license also unlocks Voyager.

TF> True. Voyager is very important for me when travelling. Unfortunately,
TF> it uses OTFE by default. In case of problems with the USB stick,
TF> messages are lost as they are not recoverable. Luckily, Voyager is
TF> only my backup.

RO>> That's about it, I believe.

TF> The other difference between the Home and the Pro versions is that the
TF> Pro version includes the intpack, which translates the interface into
TF> many languages. Home users can download this for free seperately.

That's merely the installation file. IIRC You can use the pro-install
and register as home user. After all the installation file doesn't
ask for a license. And you can use the home-install and get OTFE
installed if you don't care for the multi-language thing.

TF> So, unless you want OTFE or need to use Voyager, there are no unlocked
TF> features in the Home version.

No.

TF> Or am I wrong?

No.
Of course there is this little proviso about not using the home
version for business purposes...

-- 
Groetjes, Roelof

Devoted to the art of cat-bathing as a martial art.
http://www.voormijalleen.nl/
The Bat! 3.99.8
Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2
2 pop3 accounts
OTFE enabled
P4 3GHz
2 GB RAM


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Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: new user registration

[Chris W .]

Thomas Fernandez @ 2007-7-18 1:39:58 PM
"new user registration" 

>> OTFE comes to mind.
> I don't like that, because it's a proprietory encryption.

Me too. What if, thirty years from now, Ritlabs has moved on and I
need to get access to *that* message that happens to be encrypted?

> So, unless you want OTFE or need to use Voyager, there are no
> unlocked features in the Home version. Or am I wrong?

You can you the Pro version for business purposes. You're not supposed
to use the Home on for business purposes. However, I can no longer
find the licences in Help...

-- 
Chris

Using The Bat! v3.99.3 on Windows Vista 6.0 Build 6000.
Accessing a POP3 mailbox.

"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish
sometimes."
-The Doctor

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Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: new user registration

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Roelof,

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:35:38 +0200 GMT (18/07/2007, 08:35 +0700 GMT),
Roelof Otten wrote:

RO>>> The only difference between the home and pro versions is that some
RO>>> features are unlocked by the pro license, both use the same
RO>>> executable.

TF>> Which features would that be?

RO> OTFE comes to mind.

I don't like that, because it's a proprietory encryption.

RO> Oh and the pro license also unlocks Voyager.

True. Voyager is very important for me when travelling. Unfortunately,
it uses OTFE by default. In case of problems with the USB stick,
messages are lost as they are not recoverable. Luckily, Voyager is
only my backup.

RO> That's about it, I believe.

The other difference between the Home and the Pro versions is that the
Pro version includes the intpack, which translates the interface into
many languages. Home users can download this for free seperately.

So, unless you want OTFE or need to use Voyager, there are no unlocked
features in the Home version. Or am I wrong?

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

"A non-smoking section in a restaurant is like a non-peeing section in
a pool".
http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/

Message reply created with The Bat! 3.99.3
under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2






Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: new user registration

[Roelof Otten]

Hallo Thomas,

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:27:03 +0700GMT (18-7-2007, 3:27 +0200, where I
live), you wrote:

RO>> The only difference between the home and pro versions is that some
RO>> features are unlocked by the pro license, both use the same
RO>> executable.

TF> Which features would that be?

OTFE comes to mind.
Oh and the pro license also unlocks Voyager.
That's about it, I believe.

-- 
Groetjes, Roelof

I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't 
looking good either.
http://www.voormijalleen.nl/
The Bat! 3.99.8
Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2
2 pop3 accounts
OTFE enabled
P4 3GHz
2 GB RAM


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Description: PGP signature

Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: new user registration

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Roelof,

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 07:39:50 +0200 GMT (16/07/2007, 12:39 +0700 GMT),
Roelof Otten wrote:

RO> The only difference between the home and pro versions is that some
RO> features are unlocked by the pro license, both use the same
RO> executable.

Which features would that be?

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Why isn't there mouse-flavored cat food?
http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/

Message reply created with The Bat! 3.99.3
under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2






Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: new user registration

[Roelof Otten]

Hallo Brenda,

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 12:51:47 -0700GMT (15-7-2007, 21:51 +0200, where I
live), you wrote:

B> What do I need to do to be able to switch from the Home version to the 
Professional version?
B> Did I mess up by accidentally registering my Home version instead of the 
Professional version?

The only difference between the home and pro versions is that some
features are unlocked by the pro license, both use the same
executable.


-- 
Groetjes, Roelof

Live short and fester.
http://www.voormijalleen.nl/
The Bat! 3.99.8
Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2
2 pop3 accounts
OTFE enabled
P4 3GHz
2 GB RAM


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Description: PGP signature

Current version is 3.99 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: new user registration

[Chris W .]

Brenda @ 2007-7-15 3:51:47 PM
"new user registration" 

> I just paid for The Bat Professional version.
> I am currently using the Home version.
> When I read my email about registering, it registered the Home
> version automatically. Is this normal?

Yes. It worked fine to:
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.99.3) Professional

You can also confirm this under "Help -> About"

-- 
Chris

Using The Bat! v3.99.3 on Windows Vista 6.0 Build 6000.
Accessing a POP3 mailbox.

"No matter how hard you try, you cannot cram infinity into 32 bits."
-Carl Zimmerman

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Re: new user

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi K.,

@9-Mar-2003, 11:46 K. A. Walsh [KAW] in
mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

KAW> anyhow how can I look at all my emails on server
KAW> HD before downloading so I can delete rubbish (as
KAW> gets tons of spam) this was one of the best features
KAW> of YAM that i liked. I was told it can be done with
KAW> thebat!

Yes. See "Account | Dispatch mail on server". That does it.

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.63 Beta/7 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
'
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sgOxy+A3Yqvzt3DK+ziubd8=
=SVHW
-END PGP SIGNATURE-




Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: new user

[Andre Wichartz]

Hello K.,

On Sunday, March 9, 2003, 11:46:35 + GMT (which was 12:46 local
time), K. A. Walsh wrote:

KAW> anyhow how can I look at all my emails on server
KAW> HD before downloading so I can delete rubbish (as
KAW> gets tons of spam) this was one of the best features
KAW> of YAM that i liked. I was told it can be done with
KAW> thebat!
KAW> Ken

Yes, that's possible. Go to Account > Dispatch Mail On Server. Hope that
helps.

-- 
Cheers,
 Andre

"Freedom is the freedom to say
 that two plus two make four.
 If that is granted, all else follows."  




Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: New User Questions

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Gary,

@28 June 2002, 20:26:14 -0500 (02:26 UK time) Gary Lucas in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said to Marck D Pearlstone:

> The FAQ page does not display under either Netscape 4.7

This is expected behaviour.

> or IE 6.0.

This is not!

> I get javascript errors and a blank page in both cases.

IE4.0 gives errors. IE6 should display perfectly. Could you possibly
do a "View source" and send me the results off-list?

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.60q-5523848F0B1 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
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Re: New User Questions

[Gary Lucas]

Hi,   Thursday, June 27, 2002 20:13

OK. I installed both Beonex and Netscape 7.0 for a tryout.
Beonex has the look and feel of Netscape 7.0 but seems to be faster.

The FAQ page displays with Beonex and with Netscape 7.0, just fine.

The FAQ page does not display under either Netscape 4.7 or IE 6.0.
I get javascript errors and a blank page in both cases.

I think Beonex is going to be my new default browser.

--Gary

<==Original message text===>
From: Marck D Pearlstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Sudip Pokhrel on TBUDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002, 10:56:49 AM
Subject: New User Questions
<==>

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Sudip,

@27 June 2002, 21:02:35 +0545 (16:17 UK time) Sudip Pokhrel in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said to Marck D Pearlstone:

>>> the FAQ reports "Done, but with errors on page" after loading and
>>> all that gets displayed is one line at the top and a white
>>> background. No links or anything.

MDP>> Could you be getting a cached version? I use the same version of
MDP>> IE as you do and the page has no errors.

> Mark, as I described in my earlier thread, I have the same problem.

I think yours is a different problem. Like I said earlier, turn off
"Identify as IE" and make it "Identify as Opera" before viewing.

> Also confused about the "first page with flat links" that you refer
> to i.e. where is it?

In the middle of the page you say is "blank".

You can get directly to the "flat" version on
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/tbfaq_flat.html

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.60q-5523848F0B1 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
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<===End of original message text===>



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Re: New User Questions

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Sudip,

@27 June 2002, 21:02:35 +0545 (16:17 UK time) Sudip Pokhrel in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said to Marck D Pearlstone:

>>> the FAQ reports "Done, but with errors on page" after loading and
>>> all that gets displayed is one line at the top and a white
>>> background. No links or anything.

MDP>> Could you be getting a cached version? I use the same version of
MDP>> IE as you do and the page has no errors.

> Mark, as I described in my earlier thread, I have the same problem.

I think yours is a different problem. Like I said earlier, turn off
"Identify as IE" and make it "Identify as Opera" before viewing.

> Also confused about the "first page with flat links" that you refer
> to i.e. where is it?

In the middle of the page you say is "blank".

You can get directly to the "flat" version on
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/tbfaq_flat.html

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.60q-5523848F0B1 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
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Re: New User Questions

[Jonathan Angliss]

On Thursday, June 27, 2002, Tim Musson wrote...

JA>> You can set a timer on the message ticker so it goes away after a
JA>> certain amount of time.

> Where is this set? I know I can set it to go away after all messages
> are a certain age, to get it to go away after X amount of time? Could
> be useful.

Well... more like a certain age limit on the emails itself.  If you
right click the mail ticker next time it is up, go to "Messages" then
"Age Limits".  Set a value.  After a certain period of time, the age
of the message is met, and it is removed from the ticker.  Which, in
theory, if it's the last message, should hide the ticker again.

-- 
Jonathan Angliss
([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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Re: New User Questions

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Gary,

@27 June 2002, 09:26:05 -0500 (15:26 UK time) Gary Lucas in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said to Marck D Pearlstone:

> However, I think there may still be a problem with the FAQ page. I
> am using IE 6.0.2600.IC under Win 98/SE 4.10.A and I have
> all the latest Win 98 and IE update patches from Microsoft. Still,
> the FAQ reports "Done, but with errors on page" after loading and
> all that gets displayed is one line at the top and a white
> background. No links or anything.

Could you be getting a cached version? I use the same version of IE as
you do and the page has no errors. Really! Write to me privately if
you want to get involved with helping me debug this issue.

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.60q-5523848F0B1 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
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Re: New User Questions

[Gary Lucas]

Hi Marck,   Thursday, June 27, 2002 09:04

  Thanks for the helpful reply.

  However, I think there may still be a problem with the FAQ page.  I am using
  IE 6.0.2600.IC under Win 98/SE 4.10.A and I have all the latest
  Win 98 and IE update patches from Microsoft.  Still, the FAQ reports
  "Done, but with errors on page" after loading and all that gets displayed is
  one line at the top and a white background.  No links or anything.

--Gary

<==Original message text===>
From: Marck D Pearlstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gary Lucas on TBUDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002, 4:22:59 AM
Subject: New User Questions
<==>


Hi Gary,

@27 June 2002, 21:40:04 -0500 (03:40 UK time) Gary Lucas in
mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

> The FAQ page is full of javascript errors that prevent it from
> displaying in both Netscape and IE on my machine.

The pages work perfectly on IE 5.5 and later, Mozilla and many others.
NetScape is buggy and there's nothing I can do about that and I'm
trying to code around some of Opera's shortcomings. With those
provisos the FAQ works well and includes a link at the front page to a
"flat" version which will work on any browser.



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Re: New User: Stripping mailing list blurb

[Jernej Simončič]

Hello Julian,

27. junij 2002, 14:22:07, you wrote:

JK> Can anyone help me with a suitable re?

Here's a QT I use, and it seems to work with your example:

=8<---
%quotes='%SETPATTREGEXP="(?is)((\s*)?\n?-BEGIN PGP %-
SIGNED.*?\n(Hash:.*?\n)?\s*)?(.*?)(^(%-
-*?\s*?--\s*\n|%-
_{40,}\s*\n|%-
\n-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE.*s?\n|%-
-+\s+.*roups.*~--\>|\n_{1,})|%-
\n+Get your FREE download|%-
\z)"%REGEXPBLINDMATCH="%text"%SUBPATT="4"'
=8<---


-- 
Jernej Simoncic, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/
ICQ: 26266467

[The Bat! v1.60d on Windows 2000 5.0.2195.Service Pack 2]

The guy holding the biggest sign demanding that the freeway be torn
down moved in six years after it was constructed.
   -- Alfred's Law of NIMBY'ism [Not in my back yard]



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Re: New User Questions

[Tim Musson]

Hey Jonathan,

My MUA believes you used Sylpheed version 0.7.5claws (GTK+ 1.2.9; i586-pc-linux-gnu)
to write [EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 at 11:04:21 PM.

JA> You can set a timer on the message ticker so it goes away after a
JA> certain amount of time.

Where is this set? I know I can set it to go away after all messages
are a certain age, to get it to go away after X amount of time? Could
be useful.

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Using The Bat! eMail v1.60q
Windows 2000 5.0.2195 (Service Pack 2)
use Perl; \ program \ fulfillment



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Re: New User Questions

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Gary,

@27 June 2002, 21:40:04 -0500 (03:40 UK time) Gary Lucas in
mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

> The FAQ page is full of javascript errors that prevent it from
> displaying in both Netscape and IE on my machine.

The pages work perfectly on IE 5.5 and later, Mozilla and many others.
NetScape is buggy and there's nothing I can do about that and I'm
trying to code around some of Opera's shortcomings. With those
provisos the FAQ works well and includes a link at the front page to a
"flat" version which will work on any browser.

> There seem to be paragraph and block formatting functions, but can't
> figure out how to do simple formatting like bolding/highlighting
> text.

Probably Outlook Express . TB is a plain text email client. You
can't set character attributes in plain text. You have to use ASCII
emphasising like *bold*, /italic/, _underline_ and SHOUTING. This is
actually the only way to ensure that the person receiving your message
can understand the stresses where they appear. Let's face it, email is
about who we are sending it to, not about what we see. The best of all
worlds is where we can guarantee that what we see is what we send is
what the recipient sees. The Bat! is one of the best in the world at
that job.

> Is a local font change possible? Am I missing something?

That's a matter of changing the editor preferences. It won't affect
what you send. Also, again because of the plain text limitation and
because of the "column formatting" capabilities of the editor, you are
restricted to using fixed width fonts in the editor. You may be able
to get hold of some alternatives. One favourite is Andale Mono,
available from the MS downloads site.

> ... It would be much nicer to have it open a "new-mail list"

It is one. Just enable the "Message list" of the "Browse ticker
messages" folder view window that opens when you double click on the
ticker.

> Also, the silly banner won't go away unless I read all the messages.
> Isn't there some way to dismiss it? It seems like the only choices
> here are to have NO ALERTING or to have NUISSANCE ALERTING. Is there
> some work around?

No, but I keep mine "minimal" by shrinking it to the smallest possible
width and sliding it off the edge of the screen so that only a half
inch of it is visible.

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.60q-5523848F0B1 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
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Re: New User Questions

[Jonathan Angliss]

Hi Gary,
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:40:04 -0500, you wrote:

> Questions:
> 
> The FAQ page is full of javascript errors that prevent it from displaying in
> both Netscape and IE on my machine.  I wrote to report this at the support
> address but they just seem to ignore any questions.  Is there something I need
> to do to be able to view the FAQ?   It would be nice for new users.

I believe the FAQ is run by one of the moderators on this list, and not by
RitLabs themselves... Maybe Marck can answer that one ;)

> There seem to be paragraph and block formatting functions, but can't figure
> out how to do simple formatting like bolding/highlighting text. Is a local
> font change possible? Am I missing something?

Bold as in the person you're sending it to sees bold?  That is HTML formating,
and TB doesn't send in html (yet).  If you mean locally, there is an option
under Options - Editor Preferences I think where you can change your locally
viewed windows, but this has no affect on the recipient of the email.


> The message banner is adequate when there is one message, but when there are
> many it essentially worthless, except as an alert.  It would be much nicer to
> have it open a "new-mail list" where I could chose what I want to read and
> mark other messages as "Read" or "Deferred".  I know this banner is sorta a
> trademark, but are there any plans to make it useful too?

Next time you double click to bring up a message, go to View - Message list (I
think that's the option).  It'll then display all the unread messages that are
being shown in the ticker.

> Also, the silly banner won't go away unless I read all the messages.  Isn't
> there some way to dismiss it?  It seems like the only choices here are to have
> NO ALERTING or to have NUISSANCE ALERTING.  Is there some work around?

You can set a timer on the message ticker so it goes away after a certain amount
of time.  With the timer up, I think you can right click on it, and there are a
set of properties you can modify.

Hope these help a little.

-- 
Jonathan Angliss
([EMAIL PROTECTED])


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Re: New User -- Question About Reply Editor

[Larry Hertzog]

> Nick,

>>> Is there a way to make it "stick?"
>> 
>> Yes. :o)  Open the Editor, extend it's margins to where you like, and
>> then on the Message Editor Toolbar/View make sure "Store Window Position"
>> is checked. 

> I've tried this and it doesn't work. We are trying to make the top reply
> pane remember it's height. I'm using a full screen editor window and it
> remembers everything but the height of the top 'message you are to' pane.

> More assistance welcome, or maybe the authors can look into to will fiddling
> with the beta :)

> Charles Collinson



Charles,

It appears to be an excellent feature, but seeing only a few lines, OR
having to resize it constantly can be annoying.

On the other hand, is there a way to disable the feature entirely?




Larry Hertzog
Studio City, CA US

Using The Bat! v1.53d on Windows NT
5.1 Build 2600


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Re: New User -- Question About Reply Editor

[Allie C Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

In a message dated, Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:32:12 -0800, Larry Hertzog [LH]
wrote:
...
LH> It appears to be an excellent feature, but seeing only a few lines, OR
LH> having to resize it constantly can be annoying.

LH> On the other hand, is there a way to disable the feature entirely?

Yes. In the editor window, go to the menu opion, 'View/Original Text'.

- --
  //  \\
 _\\()//_ ©Allie C Martin
/ //  \\ \List Moderator and fellow end user
 | \__/ |   TB! v1.54 Beta/46 & WinXP Home
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Re: New User -- Question About Reply Editor

[Charles Collinson]

Nick,

>> Is there a way to make it "stick?"
> 
> Yes. :o)  Open the Editor, extend it's margins to where you like, and
> then on the Message Editor Toolbar/View make sure "Store Window Position"
> is checked. 

I've tried this and it doesn't work. We are trying to make the top reply
pane remember it's height. I'm using a full screen editor window and it
remembers everything but the height of the top 'message you are to' pane.

More assistance welcome, or maybe the authors can look into to will fiddling
with the beta :)

Charles Collinson


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Re: New User -- Question About Reply Editor

[Nick Andriash]

Hello Larry Hertzog,

On Saturday, March 09 2002 at 09:58 AM PDT, you wrote:

> Is there a way to make it "stick?"

Yes. :o)  Open the Editor, extend it's margins to where you like, and
then on the Message Editor Toolbar/View make sure "Store Window Position"
is checked. 


-- 
Nick Andriash
Courtenay, B.C. Canada


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Re: New User - Its making me BATTY!

[Charles Collinson]

Databug,

Well I've spend a few days moving from a complex Agent system to TB and I'm
well impressed. Templates, filters make my business and recreation a lot
easier now. It's not often you come across good software. Agent still is for
News but was lacking with my needs for email, as well as a fast small (semi
windows safe alternative). Currently very happy with TB, though there's a
few features (minor) I like to see. Waiting for next version before I jump
off the blocks though to see what this brings.

The Amiga. Hell that's going back a bit. If only it had had the development
time and funds these PC's have had. I used the Amiga with Compuserve many
years ago. I forget the name of the application I used. I think I used two
of them just before CI$ got semi replaced with the Internet, or more common
ISP's. Damn fine machine the Amiga - cost me a small fortune in them days :)

Sadly had to start programming these PC's, so  never used the Amiga for
normal ISP email/news. Tried OE very briefly when it came out and went and
bought Agent in very short order. Haven't looked back since but waiting for
the next version was too much for me and I need better email handling. If TB
ever decide to bring news to it's email client as an optional extra, or
in built they'll have my vote.

Charles Collinson


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Re: New User - Its making me BATTY!

[Melissa Reese]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 2:07:46 AM PST, Lionrhod wrote:

> 1) Whether I want it or not, this program wants me to send mail,
> which, as you see, say "Hello _(name/email addy)_" and "Best
> regards,"

> I have already tried making a blank page for a template and using
> that (via Accounts) however the program insists on this one.

Hello Lionrhod,

Charles mentioned templates on account, folder, and address book
levels.  The "Quick Templates" can be very useful for several reasons
as well - for inserting certain information grabbed via macro and/or
regular expressions, for group mailing templates, etc.

Also - once you get to know TB!'s templates a bit, you'll notice that
its list of pre-defined macros are extensive and very useful, as is
its ability to handle regular expressions (learn more about those on
the "TBTECH" list).

TB!'s template creation/options are really the most flexible I've
seen.

> 2) How do I word wrap messages while I am replying to them so that I
> can read the darned letter while I am reading?

Again - as Charles mentioned - "Auto-Wrap" wraps to your chosen wrap
point as you type.  However - there is more to it...

If you have "Auto-Wrap" enabled, but not "Auto-Format", if you insert
new text into an already formed paragraph, you might need to "re-wrap"
it. The easiest way is to have the cursor focus within the paragraph,
and hit the "Alt-L" keyboard shortcut.

If you want it to "re-wrap" automatically as you type in new words,
you can enable "Auto-Format" as well.  However - if you want to make
something like a list in the middle of a message while "Auto-Format"
is enabled, you need to temporarily disable A-F, or it will want to
force your short lines into one paragraph at your preferred wrap
setting.  To toggle "Auto-Format" on and off, just use the
"Ctrl-Shift-F" keyboard shortcut (same shortcut for "Quick filter"
when in the message list/viewer pane).

The help files, while improved over what they once were, still fall
short of explaining all that TB! is capable of. That's why this - and
the other TB! lists - are so helpful. You'll be quite amazed at what
TB! is capable of - just stick around here and ask away! :-)

Melissa
- --
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Re: New User - Its making me BATTY!

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi TBUDL,

On 16 February 2002 at 05:07:46 -0500 (which was 10:07 where I live)
Lionrhod wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>   I have already tried making a blank page for a template and using
>   that (via Accounts) however the program insists on this one.

That won't work. Every time you empty the account template it will
restore the default one (the one you don't like).

What you want is a truly blank template, for which you need to replace
the existing template with the keyword %BLANK. Here's what it says in
Help about it:

BLANK  this macro is used to create a blank template. An empty
   template will be replaced by the default templates. Use
   this macro to prevent that

>   2) How do I word wrap messages while I am replying to them so that I
>   can read the darned letter while I am reading?

Set Auto-wrap to On in the editor preferences. As for unwrapped text
which you have been sent? You'll have to hit Alt-L per-paragraph to
re-wrap the quoted text (or re-educate the senders).

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
___
\ Think it through ... BrainStorm at http://www.brainstormsw.com  /
 \ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com /
·
TB! v1.54 Beta/39-14F4B4B2 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
·
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Re: New User - Its making me BATTY!

[Charles Collinson]

Lionrhod,

Just started using the Bat myself and I think the templates are killers.
Anyone think I've got this wrong please correct me:

Firstly each email account has the default templates:
Right-click account, Properties and then Templates should enable you to
affect the default templates for that account, Template and Reply, etc.

Each folder under this can also have it's own templates, so if you
right-click Mom's account and select Template and Reply, you can dump the
standard stuff and change it to "Hi Mom", etc. If you click on Mom's folder
and create a message it will use Mom's template, etc.

If you want blank templates, clear all the templates for that account, or
all accounts.

The confusion lies in been able to alter all sorts, etc.

It's also possible, and this confused me, to give someone, like Mom, a
template in the address book, so when you write to Mom it replaces any
template currently been used to that of the one in the address book. this
might be the way you want to go firstly. Then you'll just need to alter
Mom's folder for the reply template.

Because several accounts, and folders can have templates it can be confusing
as one over rides the over, however only the address book suddenly confusing
things.

I set up a folder to filter this email list and I set up a simply template
and reply template for it, so this overrides the accounts default template
:)

I think templates work: Account template, folder template and finally
address book template. Address book is also a switch on/off feature. I also
think by default a folders templates are Bat's own defaults and not that of
the account, however could be wrong.

Hope this helps, as the template feature is great IMO, as a new user that I
am.

Word wrap in an option under "Utilities" - "Auto Wrap". I think it remembers
for next time.

Charles Collinson


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Re: New User - Its making me BATTY!

[Adam]

On Saturday, February 16, 2002, 10:07:46 AM, you wrote:

L> I  have  already tried making a blank page for a template and using
L> that (via Accounts) however the program insists on this one.

Lionrhod,

If  you  have not created any folders under the inbox, you should just
right  click  on the account, go to properties, templates, new message
and just clear all the text from the template.

When  you  create  a  new  message  the editor will open up completely
blank.

If you have created other folders, and you create a message whilst the
new  folder  is  highlighted,  that  new  folder  will  have  its  own
templates.



-- 
Best regards,
Adam
Using The Bat! v1.54 Beta/39
Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2


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Re: New User - IMAP Folders?`

[Steffen Lassahn]

Linke Lutz wrote:

>Well, it doesn't support using imap folders for mail storage, you need
>to download the mails.
>
>To access other folders on the imap-server, use the mail dispatcher
>(Account - Dispatch Mail On Server - All Messages). To add folders to
>dispatch, choose the mail controller (View - Mail Controller). Here you
>can subscribe and unsubscribe to imap folders, set destination folders
>etc.
>

Hm, to be honest (and blunt) ... that sucks. Unfortunatly the program 
really looks nice and I would like to use it but I have about 40 folders 
on my server. Having to manually subscribe each one of them on every 
machine I want to read my mail from AND having to manually get the mails 
in the folder every time I want to access them makes the program 
unusable for me. One can only hope that in the future this will be 
solved. So far I have found only Outlook and Mozilla being able to just 
download the folder list and display it.

Steffen
 


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Re: New User - IMAP Folders?`

[Markus Gloede]

Hi,

On Tuesday, February 12, 2002, 11:29:09 AM, Alastair Scott wrote:

> Mine definitely won't do this - I've tried many times and all that is
> ever visible is the Inbox although there are both personal folders and
> common (company-wide) folders on the server :/

I also don't get it to see IMAP folders within my fastmail.fm account.
I've tried everything: entering folder names manually, changing the mask
and the paths - nothing works. Creating folders works, yet the Bat doesn't
even see those. :(

Regards,

Markus
-- 
Using The Bat! 1.54 Beta/39 under Windows NT 4.0 Build
1381 Service Pack 6 


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Re: New User - IMAP Folders?`

[Alastair Scott]

On 12 February 2002 at 10:16 am Linke wrote:

AS>> Unfortunately it doesn't - at the moment it treats IMAP4 like POP3
AS>> (only 'seeing' the root folder).

> Makes me wonder, why I'm able to download my server-rule-sorted mails
> from various folders ;)

> Honestly: I guess the Mail Controller/Dispatcher isn't that well
> documented, but just give it a try. For me it works.

Mine definitely won't do this - I've tried many times and all that is
ever visible is the Inbox although there are both personal folders and
common (company-wide) folders on the server :/

(It may well be "undocumented" = "doesn't work very well so isn't
emphasised" ... on the [tbbeta] mailing list there've been various
discussions in the past about IMAP and TLS/SSL* working, or not working,
depending on the server at the far end).

Alastair

* new in the 1.54 betas.



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Re: New User - IMAP Folders?`

[Linke Lutz]

SL> I am looking for a new eMail client and so far TheBat looks nice
SL> enough. I have one problem though ... how do I have to configure
SL> TheBat to download my folders from the IMAP server including the
SL> mails inside the folders? Please don't tell me that TheBat is not
SL> supporting the whole IMAP protocol!

Well, it doesn't support using imap folders for mail storage, you need
to download the mails.

To access other folders on the imap-server, use the mail dispatcher
(Account - Dispatch Mail On Server - All Messages). To add folders to
dispatch, choose the mail controller (View - Mail Controller). Here you
can subscribe and unsubscribe to imap folders, set destination folders
etc.

+Lutz

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Re: New User - IMAP Folders?`

[Steffen Lassahn]

Alastair Scott wrote:

>>Please don't tell me that TheBat is not supporting
>>the whole IMAP protocol!
>>
>
>Unfortunately it doesn't - at the moment it treats IMAP4 like POP3 (only
>'seeing' the root folder).
>

Thanks for the fast answer. It sparks another question in me ... is 
there any roadmap or something similar from the developers if and when 
this might change?

Steffen




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Re: New User - IMAP Folders?`

[Alastair Scott]

On 12 February 2002 at 9:58 am Steffen wrote:

> Hi List!

> I am looking for a new eMail client and so far TheBat looks nice
> enough. I have one problem though ... how do I have to configure
> TheBat to download my folders from the IMAP server including the mails
> inside the folders? Please don't tell me that TheBat is not supporting
> the whole IMAP protocol!

Unfortunately it doesn't - at the moment it treats IMAP4 like POP3 (only
'seeing' the root folder).

Alastair

-- 
Alastair Scott (London, United Kingdom)
Using Windows 95 and The Bat! 1.54 Beta/37



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Re: New User - Attachment Problems

[Raj]

Frater,

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, at 13:23:30 [GMT +1100] (which was 7:53 AM where I live) you
wrote:

FA> Can anyone help me? I would like to stay with The Bat! and
FA> purchase it but if it will not send attachments I (and the

TB can send attachments well. There has been no issue on this...at least here.

Just  check out the various options in Account->Properties->Files & Directories.
All options regarding attachments are specified here.

-- 
Warm regards,
Raj

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The severity of the itch is inversely proportional to the ability to reach it.

Replied on Wednesday, February 6, 2002 using TB Ver 1.54 Beta/30 on Windows NT


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Re: New User - Attachment Problems

[Jonathan Wayne]

TB certainly can send attachments!  Check out the complete log with Account |
View Log.

jon

Tuesday, February 05, 2002, 9:23:30 PM, you wrote:

Hi All,
I have just installed The Bat 1.53d on WinXP Pro. It is
working marvelously except for one thing... I cannot send
ANY attachments. I have tried GIF, JOG, TXT and ZIP files.

In all cases the "Connection Center" window appears to show
it is sending and then closes so quickly I can see nothing.
The message in the outbox with the attachment appears to be
"saved" immediately after this operation and the log panel
says:

6/02/2002, 13:12:24: SEND - connection finished 0 of 0
messages sent.

Can anyone help me? I would like to stay with The Bat! and
purchase it but if it will not send attachments I (and the
rest of my family who will use it over the network) will
have a tough time.

If any further information is needed please let me know.

Cheers,
AShR

-
 Jonathan Wayne  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: NEW USER QUESTIONS

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello ETM,

It was foretold that on Sunday, December 2, 2001 at 02:48 GMT -0500,
ETM [E] would type:

E> First hitch:  Is OE 5.50 (not listed) exportable to TB?

I think OE can export to .eml files, right?  If so, then just rename
the .eml files to .msg (I have a VBScript to automate the renaming
process, let me know if you're interested.)  You can import .msg files
quite easily.

E> I know where the approximately 200 dbx files (about 3 Gig) are, I
E> cannot get the Mail Import Wizard to accept the location. Is it
E> because I am not yet working with a registered program or is it the
E> OE version?

TB's trial is fully functional.  It must be the OE version.

You seem to deal with a lot of mail in archives.  For that task, many
people on another list swear by a program called Mailbag Assistant
.  It works with many
mailers, including OE and TB.  The list where I first heard about it
is the Power Tools Software list on Yahoo groups.  You can check out
the webpage at 
The owner occasionally runs contests for members.  You should ask him
about this month's contest and promotions.


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal

Using The Bat! 1.54 Beta/14 under Windows 98 4.10 Build 67766446 A

Trigonometry for farmers: swine and cowswine. -- Erland G.


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Re: NEW USER QUESTIONS

[ETM]

First hitch:  Is OE 5.50 (not listed) exportable to TB?  I know where the
approximately 200 dbx files (about 3 Gig) are, I cannot get the Mail Import
Wizard to accept the location.  Is it because I am not yet working with a
registered program or is it the OE version?

I'd like to see if this works before I register.

Elaine

- Original Message -
From: "Januk Aggarwal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ETM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: NEW USER QUESTIONS


> Hello ETM,
>
> On Saturday, December 1, 2001 at 15:32 GMT -0500, a creature mimicking
> ETM [E] wrote:
>
> E> I have about 3 Gig of email in my OE. Can that be imported into the
> E> BAT?
>
> There should be no problem doing that.  Check out Tools -> Import
> Wizard.





_
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Re: NEW USER QUESTIONS

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello ETM,

On Saturday, December 1, 2001 at 15:32 GMT -0500, a creature mimicking
ETM [E] wrote:

E> I have about 3 Gig of email in my OE. Can that be imported into the
E> BAT?

There should be no problem doing that.  Check out Tools -> Import
Wizard.

E> Is there any size limitation, beyond my own PC, to mail held in the
E> BAT?

Not that I know of.  Each folder in TB is a different message base.
If you notice a folder is too slow, you can just split the messages
into two (or more) folders and the speed should be improved.

Also, make sure you use the "Purge all folders" option regularly.
When you delete a message, it is only marked as deleted.  When you use
the Compress option, the deleted messages are actually removed.  The
Purge option applies the limits you might have defined in the
folder properties and then runs the compress option.

E> OE permits searching from the top or from the individual folders
E> using simple search terms and different fields. Is there a similar
E> search capability for mail filed in the BAT?

The general search tool can be accessed by pressing .  It can do
what you're asking.

TB also offers a quick search tool.  In the message list, just start
typing the word/name you're looking for and the first match will be
automatically selected.  To move to the next match, just hit
-.  This tool is limited to only the current folder.

E> From one point I could more effectively handle treatment of
E> attachments.  How does the BAT handle attachments, especially problem
E> attachments?

TB can warn against or disable execution of predefined file-types.
Check out:
 Options -> Preferences -> Warnings

E> I used four accounts, one with my cable system, three via yahoo pop3
E> download, into OE.  I would like a similar set-up for the BAT.

TB has the nicest multiple account handling of any mail program I've
seen.  Each account is essentially completely separate from every
other account, though you can filter from one account to another
account's folders.


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal

Using The Bat! 1.54 Beta/14 under Windows 98 4.10 Build 67766446 A

This sentence lets you know this page was not a mistake.


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Re: NEW USER QUESTIONS

[Jernej Simončič]

Hello ETM,

1. december 2001, 21:32:25, you wrote:

> I have about 3 Gig of email in my OE.  Can that be imported into the BAT?
> Is there any size limitation, beyond my own PC, to mail held in the BAT?

I don't know about any size limitation, but I do find The Bat faster
with large amounts of messages than OE. I remember that OE became very
slow (up to 5 seconds to open) with around 500 messages in one folder,
while TB displays folder with 6000 messages (threaded) in 2 seconds on
my computer (AMD 800, 256 MB ram).

Note that on importing, you may loose some messages - when I went from
OE to TB, I had about 5000 messages there, and I found 4 messages
corrupted.

> I tend to use mail as a filing system, maintain many folders/filters (and
> successfully set them up this morning in the BAT and they are properly
> working).  OE permits searching from the top or from the individual folders
> using simple search terms and different fields.  Is there a similar search
> capability for mail filed in the BAT?

TB has search capactibility for either one folder (with or w/o
subfolders), whole account or all accounts. You can choose where to
search, but you can't define separate strings to search for in
different fields (the string will be searched for in all selected
fields). You can use & and | as boolean search operators, or use
regular expressions for advanced searches. See Tools -> Search for
more info.

> In regard to the BAT's treatment of attachments, I have always filtered
> attachments in OE as a protective mechanism because of its vulnerabilities
> to problems.  From one point I could more effectively handle treatment of
> attachments.  How does the BAT handle attachments, especially problem
> attachments?  I noticed that ZA renamed/disarmed an attachment downloaded
> into BAT this AM, but wasn't positive that the mail program itself also
> hadn't done something to render the attachment harmless.

TB doesn't change the attachments. It won't execute them
automatically, and will warn you if the attachment is potentially
dangerous.

> I use Win98SE, will probably remain with IE5.50, although I might experiment
> with Opera, and maintain an AV program and use Zone-Alarm-Pro since I am on
> cable connection.

I replaced ZoneAlarm with Tiny Personal Firewall, because:
- ZoneAlarm took too many resources
- I didn't like it's yellow color :)

And I'm a long time Opera user (since 3.50). I just can't browse
without MDI anymore :)

-- 
Jernej Simoncic, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/
ICQ: 26266467

[The Bat! v1.54 Beta/14 on Windows 98 4.10.67766222. ]

Always remember to pillage before you burn.
   -- Attila's Instruction


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Re: new user *to the group*

[Ottar Grimstad]

Hello Jennifer,

Monday, April 23, 2001, 1:00:22 PM, you wrote:

JL>  I cannot get it to operate, i.e. receive/send messages. So I
JL> contacted the Web site to get some Help. There was none. The  only
JL> offering was this discussion group (which isn't even sponsored by
JL> the company). So I contacted the group with my same  questions. I
JL> have received 20 messages in my In Box since then. I did not
JL> realize that I was going to receive all emails on all  topics from
JL> all users all the time. I do not want this at all. I want only to
JL> a) to get this system operable on my computer or b) find out  how
JL> to safely and thoroughly uninstall it so that I can go hassle with
JL> Eudora again.

I see that you still use Eudora, so I guess that you have not been
able to send and recieve with The Bat! yet?

Have you been able to make an account? In that case you right click on
the account name, choose Properties and click on Transport in the menu
that appears. Check that you have correct settings for smpt-server,
pop-server, username and password.

If you do not have an account yet: make one by selecting Account New
on the meny bar and follow the instructions.

Then check Options, Network and administration to select connection
via local network or via Windows Dial Up.

Then do you see the blue box with an arrow pointing in. Use this to
collect mail and use the green box to send mail if you have put mail
in the que.
The keybord combination Alt-F2 make both at the sam time.

If you still do have trouble, please tell us the more specific nature
of it.

One of the great features of The Bat! is the folder system and
filtering. I have made a special folder for this mailing list and made
a filter to direct all messages into that folder. This is quite
necessary to free up the inbox for more private messages.

Select Account, Sorting Office/Filters, Incoming Mail, New. Enter
TBUDL in the open space for filtering strings and click the tree icon
besides the field for Move messages. Press new to make a new folder,
name it TBUDL and select this.

If you want to quit the list altogether, there is a link at the bottom
of this message, but think twice. Though the traffic is a bit
overwhelming, here are meny very helpful and knowledgable persons here
that will help you to make The Bat! work very well for you.


-- 
Best regards,
  Ottar Grimstad, Norway
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.online.no/~ottgrims
Using The Bat! 1.51 on Windows 98 version 4,10



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Re: new user *to the group*

[A Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:00:22 +0200, Jennifer wrote these comments:

JL> I thought that e-mail was supposed to be straightforward & easy; at
JL> the moment I'm not even sure I'm properly following the 'instructions'
JL> for  contacting TBUDL.  Because I have already spent an inordinate
JL> amount of  time trying to get moving with TB, which is supposed to be
JL> superior to  Eudora, Outlook, etc. and still am not functioning, I
JL> will simply paste in  the most recent message that I sent in asking
JL> for some assistance.

JL> Hi Jennifer, On 22 April 2001 at 22:24:09 +0200 (which was 21:24 where
JL> I live) Jennifer  Lyle wrote to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
JL> made these points: Last night I downloaded TheBat! based on a number
JL> of glowing  recommendations. I cannot get it to operate, i.e.
JL> receive/send messages.

Would you care to give us an idea of your transport settings, especially
the username that you entered (not the password of course ). Eudora
uses different settings from the usual, if I remember correctly.

If you can't send or receive mail then it's very likely a configuration
problem at the transport settings level.

- --
Allie,
 -= A. Curtis Martin «» List Moderator (and fellow end-user) =-
The Bat! v1.52 Beta/11 | Win2k (SP1)
 --
  'I distinctly remember forgetting that.'

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8ckt Build/05..
Comment: PGP Key ID: 0x57C9EB602B0717E2   (Sealed for security).

iQA/AwUBOuQTVlfJ62ArBxfiEQKbXwCfdtJPpq8QtaTEiET1TEYKCWtggTkAn0Fn
RWKa6VTiohUp74s5pZGZxBkV
=9424
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: New User : the Mail Ticker does not appear anymore

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Olivier,

On 17 April 2001 at  18:02:26 +0200 (which was 17:02 where I  live)
Olivier Mascia wrote to TBUDL and made these points:

OM> First problem : the Mail Ticker does not appear anymore.

OM> I checked in the Options menu : Mail Ticker is set to Show
OM> Automatically. Also, the Show unread messages on MailTicker is
OM> checked for all folders.

OM> What could explain this behaviour ?

What can sometime cause this is that the ticker has been moved to a
position whereby it is off-screen. Some jigging in the registry is one
way of bringing back to visibility.

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA / TBTECH
 
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[Any opinions are my own and not those of RIT labs   ]

TB! v1.52 Beta/5/iKey1000 S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows NT 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: 6.5.8ckt (build 04)
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness

iQA/AwUBOtxsKjnkJKuSnc2gEQKmWACgpjFTreOUGivW8WtsC5+AKl898iIAn35g
aBdhFOmhYe6TfOGu9OR8k1Yi
=1hS2
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: New user, I have a question

[Tony Boom]

This message: 19/09/2000 13:03 GMT.

Hello David,


  A reminder of what David ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  19 September 2000 at 13:20:54 GMT +1000

D> My question is: Can I put "Reading confirmation" in the templates?


  Account / Properties / Templates / Reading Confirmation.

  You can compose the template any way you wish.

-- 
_
 
Best regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.47 Beta/3 S/N A27A5E65
 Windows 98 ME 4.90 Build 3000 
 

 Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=PGPkeyrequest

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Re: New user, I have a question

[David]

Hello Syafril,

Tuesday, September 19, 2000, 1:23:35 PM, you wrote:

SH> Hello David,

SH> Responding  to  your  article on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 13:20:54
SH> GMT +1000 (which was 19/09/2000 10:20 GMT +0700 my Local Time) :

D>> My question is: Can I put "Reading confirmation" in the templates?

SH> Have you try %READCONFIRM ?


Thanks, I'll try that.

-- 
Cheers,
David in Australia mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: New user, I have a question

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello David,

Responding  to  your  article on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 13:20:54
GMT +1000 (which was 19/09/2000 10:20 GMT +0700 my Local Time) :

D> My question is: Can I put "Reading confirmation" in the templates?

Have you try %READCONFIRM ?

-- 
Best regards,

- Syafril -


Name  : Syafril Hermansyah  |Company: Duta Integrasi Pratama 
Mailto: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> |Voice  : (62) (21) 385-1600  
FAXto : (62)(21)351-9241 key:000FAX |URL: 


Using The Bat! 1.47 Beta/1
under Windows NT 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 1

Created : Tuesday, September 19, 2000, 10:23:00 GMT +0700

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Karin Spaink,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:19:35 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, September 18, 2000, 2:19:35 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Karin Spaink wrote:


> At 16:01 17-09-2000 +0200, Dierk Haasis kindly wrote:

> Another reason is that TB's editor seems to have
> acquired religious status here: there are staunch 
> defendors who will say that perseverance will bring 
> enlightenment, while others grab a comment on TB's 
> editor and use it in their personal crusade. Such 
> ritual fights tend to irritate me.

Personally I have stayed more or less out of editor fights as I find
my usage in emails is fairly basic  and while the bat isnt my
favorite neither would others which have been proposed.
If v2 ever comes out I likely will use whatever external editor I like
best and which works smoothest




Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello John,


On  Sunday, September 17, 2000  at  14:33:45 GMT +0100 (which was 6:33 AM
where I live) witnesses say John Rainer typed:



> Thanks for the info, Marck, but I've tried the autoformat options and
> it still irritates. Pasting large amounts of text near the end of a
> line, in particular, always leaves a line outstanding

Marck posted a bug report about this some time ago.  It got much
debate, some thought it was correct, others not.  I don't think there
was any consensus.  But, lets not start that debate again, please?

> If there is a way to alter the default template settings, I wish I
> knew it before I had set up six accounts :(

Unfortunately, no.  What I have done is set up all my templates in
Quick templates.  Then my account default templates only require one
line:

%QInclude="Template Handle"

The biggest time savings comes when I change something in my template.
It automatically propagates through all accounts and all folders.


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46c
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Karin,

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:35:42 +0200 GMT (18/09/2000, 02:35 +0800 GMT),
Karin Spaink wrote:

KS> Doesn anybody have any idea when version 2 will be released?

Do you have another question?  "Anytime soon." Remember Xanadu:
within the next six months.

Check out The Interview: http://www.marckp.redhotant.com/thebat/interview.html

KS>  > Also, kindly try exploring why there is a blank
KS>  > in front of the ">" of your replies. Did you do that on purpose?

KS> No. I apologize: I have been fiddling with my 
KS> eudora.ini and something got messed up. It should be 
KS> fuxed now: mai that I send to myself looks fine. Will 
KS> you please tell me when it is still inserting spaces before chevrons?

Still there.

OK, 3am, bed time for me. Good night!

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 14:25 17-09-2000 +0800, Thomas Fernandez kindly wrote:
 >Karin Spaink wrote:

 >KS>  >TB! loves to count replies for some reason.

 >Just add "%Singlere" to your Reply Templates. I wish it would
 >be added as default, and reply counting a feature.

Excellent. Thank you.

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 14:18 17-09-2000 +0800, Thomas Fernandez kindly wrote:
 >Karin Spaink wrote:

 >this is the night shift, and I usually only get to see interesting
 >threads after they have been dead-horsed. so I guess I'm lucky this
 >time. :-)

'Cept that meanwhile I went to bed and missed the night shift ;-)

 >Is it only me, or is this thread about editor preferences? No, Steve,
 >mentioned the same. Well, the editor is not going to change, as the
 >developers concentrate on the email funcitonality. However, a version
 >2 is in preparation, and this one will allow you to choose your
 >preferred external editor.

Doesn anybody have any idea when version 2 will be released?

 > Also, kindly try exploring why there is a blank
 > in front of the ">" of your replies. Did you do that on purpose?

No. I apologize: I have been fiddling with my 
eudora.ini and something got messed up. It should be 
fuxed now: mai that I send to myself looks fine. Will 
you please tell me when it is still inserting spaces before chevrons?

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Tony Boom,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:42:32 +0100 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, September 17, 2000, 9:42:32 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Tony Boom wrote:


> This message: 17/09/2000 15:42 GMT.

> Hello Januk,


>   A reminder of what Januk ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
>   17 September 2000 at 01:09:59 GMT -0700

JA>> Why do you need to sleep?  

I donot have to, it just happens sometimes. ALSO to some customers
amusement when installing a windows...


>   I have a week old baby keeps asking me the same question :-)



Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Fred van Veen,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:01:18 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, September 17, 2000, 10:01:18 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Fred van Veen wrote:


> Karin is a Dutch Journalist and probably one of the most mailed persons
> (including lots of hate mails) here in the Netherlands.


So what?
This an international mailing list. Nothing to do with whats she
writes or not in some Dutch rag. Most had an extreemly limited choice
of words from what I remember...

On the other hand it seems to me we are well headed to a farm of dead
 horses



Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Dierk Haasis,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:01:04 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, September 17, 2000, 9:01:04 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Dierk Haasis wrote:


> Hello Karin!

> Sunday, September 17, 2000, 4:57:18 AM, you wrote:


>> client. So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

>   I am usually not the one to get personal on this list but ... can't
>   you as a professional writer not find other ways to express your
>   feelings? Isn't that what writing - especially good writing - is all
>   about?

>   Or ... are you ...?

Being Dutch myself and luckily for many years in the situation where I
donot have to read what the goverment considers to be 'writers' or
look at what they consider 'painters', subsidised by our wasted
tax money, I can asure you that there ware very few real good writers
in the Netherlands... One of the reasons I started to read mainly
English while at school as I read a lot  and it was virutally
impossible to find anything I liked.

Secondly there was this generation of writers growning farms of 'chili
peppers' like steve grows horses if he forgets himself (g).
'if it doesnt have peppers nobody wants to read it' (g)


While I have been years away from the Netherlands I would say chances
we have here a famous writer fighting with the Bat are about the same
as me winning the Thai corrupt lottery..


Best regards,
 
tracer

PS, My website has undergone a chance, from being a total disaster it
now at looks like a website, still no data and addresses there...
As you may guess as I am absolutely not artistic its not my doing it
now looks better, its a kind of exchange of services (g)
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 05:01:18PM +0200, Fred van Veen wrote:
> You are very wrong here (and very arrogant too! (why?))

Because I'm right, have been right for nearly a decade and grew weary of
explaining to all the newbies to the online world why their brand spanking new
"wisdom", hard earned all of it, is wrong years ago.

> Karin is a Dutch Journalist and probably one of the most mailed persons
> (including lots of hate mails) here in the Netherlands.

I've been participating in mail client mailing lists for the past 6+
years, spent 4 years on the beta team of one client, regularly use 3 in my day
to day operatons, have tested over 30+ across 4 different platforms, have read
a few of the base RFCs that mail was founded on, am slowly working on my own
email client (planning stages only right now) and have been an active
participant in eletronic communications for almost 20 years now.

So, you tell me, which one of us, me or her, just /MIGHT/ have an
understanding of why things are the way they are and have just the slightest
reason to speak authoratively upon the subject, hm?

When I start pontificating on how Dutch Journalists should do their work
I'll be more than happy to take her words under advisement and give them the
weight they deserve for I will be in her element.  
   
As for arrogance, it is simple, I've grown weary of having to tell newbie
netizens who just discovered email as a very convenient form of communication
why all their recently found "wisdom", all hard earned, I'm sure, is wrong.  I
have the joy of seeing a good 30-50 people a year bring up the same points,
every single year.  Not a one understands the technology as well as they
should to be speaking on the matter and none of them, not a one, ever wants to
listen to those who do.  I've gotten quite tired of being kind so I stopped
many years ago.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 10:52:07AM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:
> S>> Most likely because you weren't trying to do anything more advanced
> S>> set up a lunch date.
 
> FvV> You are very wrong here (and very arrogant too! (why?))
 
> 
> I have to agree with you here Fred. One of the list rules states:
> 
> 3. Do not turn a discussion into a slanging match by resorting
>to personal insults and/or derogatory remarks.
> 
> His statement is clearly in breach of this rule and a warning has been
> issued.
> 


Apparently you don't know the meaning of insult and/or derotatry remarks.
Here, let me give you an example.

When you put your moderator hat on why is it, white, point and have the
word dunce on it?

That concludes my example.  Now, care to give a rebuttal on how setting a
lunch date is as derogatory as that?


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:22:29PM +0100, Tony Boom wrote:
> SL> Hello, I stick with it and after 18 months I still hate it.
 
>   So can we assume you won't be buying the company?

You never know.  If that is the only way to get that lame-duck feature
removed I might just do that.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Chuck,

On 17 September 2000 at 09:54:01 GMT -0500 (which was 15:54 where I
live) Chuck Mattsen wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

CM> You  know,  for  people who claim to be so all-fired offended by a
CM> word  here  and  there  and who can't wait to take someone to task
CM> over  it  in  this  public  forum,  y'all  certainly seem to enjoy
CM> repeating it over and over by pasting it into your messages.

Thank  you,  Chuck. Quite correct. I have been at pains to censor such
expletives with surreptitious use of *'s and would request that anyone
who  feels the need to leap to the defence of the morality of the list
should  take similar care when quoting (and before anyone tries to get
"clever"  about  it, yes I did say the same to Allie who is new in the
job so cut him some slack, okay? )

CM> ...  so  why not just leave it the frel alone. (Farscape reference
CM> for any fans out there).

You can count me in on that one, Sparky ;-)!

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Kids Stuff:
Genetics explain why you look like your
father and if you don't why you should.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:01:18 +0200, Fred van Veen wrote:

S>> Most likely because you weren't trying to do anything more advanced than
S>> set up a lunch date.

FvV> You are very wrong here (and very arrogant too! (why?))


I have to agree with you here Fred. One of the list rules states:

3. Do not turn a discussion into a slanging match by resorting
   to personal insults and/or derogatory remarks.

His statement is clearly in breach of this rule and a warning has been
issued.


- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Point not found. A)bort, R)eread, I)gnore. "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

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Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

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Op5O7M4beKyjBofxXT9zqm7+
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Tony Boom]

This message: 17/09/2000 15:51 GMT.

Hello Gerd,


  A reminder of what Gerd ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  17 September 2000 at 12:36:32 GMT +0200 in relation to Karin.

GE> - From what I read in this thread, TB! seems not to be your favourite client ?!

   I have to agree with Gerd and I get the impression (Although I may be
   wrong) that you are trying to provoke inflamed tempers. Members of
   this list are very sympathetic to new TB users and they have the same
   attitude to users who have been using TB for years. I for one never
   feel any embarrassment when asking something that may seem so simple
   to others on this list.

   It is in the interest of everyone on this list to promote TB and to
   provide as many answers as possible. I feel your attitude maybe,
   despite the amount of people that have tried to help you, a little
   too aggressive for a newcomer.

   You are quite clearly not impressed with TB so may I direct you to
   this site.

   http://www.softwareblast.com/

   Here your will find literally dozens of email clients one of which is
   bound to be to your liking. You won't however find such a helpful
   user group for ANY of them.

-- 
_
 
Best regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
 Windows 98 ME 4.90 Build 3000 
 

 Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=PGPkeyrequest

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Tony Boom]

This message: 17/09/2000 16:22 GMT.

Hello Steve,


  A reminder of what Steve ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  17 September 2000 at 05:12:02 GMT -0700

SL> Hello, I stick with it and after 18 months I still hate it.

  So can we assume you won't be buying the company?
  

-- 
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Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
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 Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=PGPkeyrequest

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Tony Boom]

This message: 17/09/2000 15:42 GMT.

Hello Januk,


  A reminder of what Januk ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  17 September 2000 at 01:09:59 GMT -0700

JA> Why do you need to sleep?  


  I have a week old baby keeps asking me the same question :-)

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 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Chuck Mattsen]

On Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 9:01 AM or thereabouts, Dierk
Haasis wrote the following about New user, lotsa questions:

DH> I am usually not the one to get personal on this list but ...
DH> can't you as a professional writer not find other ways to
DH> express your feelings? Isn't that what writing - especially good
DH> writing - is all about?

You know, for people who claim to be so all-fired offended by a word
here and there and who can't wait to take someone to task over it in
this public forum, y'all certainly seem to enjoy repeating it over
and over by pasting it into your messages.

For cripe's sake ... even if it did offend me (which it doesn't) I'd
have to admit that it's been addressed, not once but twice, by the
moderators now, who went to great pains to say, "Hey, we're handling
it," so why not just leave it the frel alone.  (Farscape reference
for any fans out there).

Chuck
-- 
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Random Thought/Quote for this Message:
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 10:25:46AM +0100, Tony Boom wrote:
>   Stick with it and like Mark, myself and many others, I'm sure you'll
>   come to love it.

Wow, that's what, the 5th one now?  Sheesh.  Hello, I stick with it and
after 18 months I still hate it.  Some people just don't like the computer
doing something without explicit instructions.  This is one case.  Put the
cursor where it is supposed to go, durn it!

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi John,

On 17 September 2000 at 08:32:16 GMT +0100 (which was 08:32 where I
live) John Rainer wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

JR> - all I want text to do is to fully word wrap at a fixed number of
JR> characters and to insert a blank line when I hit Return, but the
JR> autoformat and word wrap options still seem to do baffling things!
JR> Messages that are heavily edited seem to require both endless
JR> selection and alt-L keystrokes just to properly wrap.

That  is  because you have auto-format turned off. Ctrl-Shift-F is the
auto-format  toggle key and I use it often. Most of the time I have it
on and edited text is re-flowed as I type.

I hit return /twice/ to start a new paragraph.

I simply hit Ctrl-Shift-F first
To butt lines up closely and not have them re-flowed.

I never need to use Alt-L (or Alt-J in my case) to re-flow my own text
manually unless I have forgotten to toggle auto-format.

JR> I think it is a wonderful program and no doubt there are power
JR> users who find the editor both powerful and useful but I did not
JR> buy it for its editing functions and for me it is a major
JR> irritation.

I hope the above tips help soothe that irritation.

JR> - perhaps the answer would be a configuration switch to use the
JR> Bat editor or for it to operate in the style of, say, Agent.

- From  your  described problem, I'd say the switch exists and it is the
auto-format  toggle.  The  behaviour  you describe is how TB acts when
that option is off.

HTH

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 COLE'S LAW: Thinly sliced cabbage
 
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Gerd Ewald]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Karin Spaink !


On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:29:40 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was 17.09.2000, 00:29 (GMT+0200) where I live, you wrote:

KS> Since  I  don't  like  the way that my fave e-mail
KS> program  Eudora  is  heading, I decided to try The
KS> Bat  for a while. It looks very much like the mail
KS> client  I might switch to, but after fiddling with
KS> it for a while - and checking the FAQ and the help
KS> files  - I still have a couple of questions.




- From what I read in this thread, TB! seems not to be your favourite client ?!

You apologize for being demanding; well, it's ok being demanding, but you have
to look for the right adress: neither the moderators nor Steve are the
programmers (please correct me someone if I'm wrong).

I suggest you list all corrections, additional features a.s.o to send them
to RITLABS. You won't change TB! by demanding these things from other users.


- --
Best regards,
 Gerd
==
Using The Bat! Version 1.46c

- 
I didn't write this; a very complex macro did.
- 

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Comment: Digitally signed for authentication purposes ! Gerd Ewald

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Tony Boom]

This message: 17/09/2000 10:22 GMT.

Hello Marck,




  A reminder of what Marck ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  17 September 2000 at 00:27:18 GMT +0100

MDP> Correct.  This  is  not  a bug. This is TB's (love it or hate .. and I
MDP> personally  love it) "virtual space". Place the cursor anywhere on the
MDP> page,  start  typing and it will stick. It is, IMHO, the right way for
MDP> fixed  pitch  WYSIWYG plain text editing to work. There are others who
MDP> disagree about this but they have, so far, been unable to persuade the
MDP> authors to make it optional.


  When I first started using TB! I personally had a great deal of trouble
  getting used to this. After a while it becomes second nature and I now
  struggle with other application that behave "Normally".

  Stick with it and like Mark, myself and many others, I'm sure you'll
  come to love it.

-- 
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Best regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:41:42AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> 'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then new massages get added
> to old (unread) messages.  That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I
> don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've recieved do many here and
> w\so may there.

Sorry, I don't buy it.  Just look at the numbers and get over it.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:29:33AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> At 20:15 16-09-2000 -0500, A. Curtis Martin kindly wrote:
> 
>  >SL> Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
>  >SL> features of an editor.
> 
>  >She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.
> 
> I have. I use multiple accounts, I am filtering excessively, I am making
> standard replies and templates and what have you. 

Pst.  He was refering to advanced features in the editor.

> It is not. Try using notepad, hit Enter and then Tab, 
> and type. Will your soursor move up one line and undo your ?

Doesn't do that for me in TB! either.  Of course I'm not big on the
computer doing something when I don't tell it to.  

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:21:01AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> Is it now. 

Yes, it has been explained to you several times.

> I have been on the net for six years and nobody ever told me that they were
> aggreviated by the fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
> read my and theirs contributions with.

Most likely because you weren't trying to do anything more advanced than
set up a lunch date.

> And if I may be so bold to ask -- isn't the whole point of _not_ sending
> html and stylized shit that this allows end users to see what they get the
> way they want to see it? 

Yup.  So tell me, which perportional font do you use?  Is that different
than the font I use?  Yes?  Then why are you trying to impose your stylize
poo onto me?

> Isn't html meant to be just _structure_ which each end-user can apply their
> own lay-out to?

Nope.  What layout?

> Nonsense. What you are saying is that everybody should send their mail in
> stylized text or html with css, because only that way that get  to see it as
> _you_ meant it. Ands last time I checked with RFC's, that was not the
> general idea.

No, I am saying that everyone should send in plain text, fixed-width font
because unlike perportional fonts and HTML/CSS that is the /ONLY/ way the
sender and receiver can see the same thing, EVER.

> I can see you .sig fine, thank you. Eudora _does_ aloow me to switch from
> prop. view to fixed view at the press of a button.

Bully for it.  Too bad that it doesn't do the right thing and keep you in
fixed-width font so other people don't have to see your poorly formatted
documents.

> I got loads of mail too. And yes, I want to have an unobtrusive warning if
> any of my fave mailinglist have new contributions, and of course my known
> contacts get filtered into their appropriate mailboxes. 

You do have one.  Look at the folder list.  WOW, it's highlighted, it has
new mail!  Hey, in the "new mail" column it has 8.  That means 8 new mail in
that folder!  

> But if you'd think a bit beyond that, you'd understand that my inbox is the
> designated place for unexpected mail, and I would like to be automatically
> pointed there. 

Why?  Why would you want to point to unexpected mail instead of expected
mail?

> lus, I would like to have some kind of overview: 

Look at the folder list.  By gosh-golly-gundrops, IT IS AN OVERVIEW!  You
don't know what a lack of an overview is until you've use mutt or pine and
tried to tell the olympic class yoyos who use it that you'd like an overview
and they point out that have a button to go to the next folder with unread
messages in it.

> think that the mailbox-list overview works -- 
> especially since I tend to mark mail-to-be-replied-to 
> or -to-be-attended-to later as 'unmarked'. They will 
> show as nee. Exit overview.

Look at the pretty numbers.  I do the same thing and I always know where
new mail is.  In fact, I've been doing it that way for 5 years across two
accounts.  If course with TB! (Or Eudora if I were ever inclined to use that
non-threaded dungheap) I'd just use colors to denote that.

>  >If you are filtering then your mail isn't
>  >going to the inbox and, again, there is no need for it.
 
> Why do I suddenly get the idea that you're arrogant?

Took you that long, did it?

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:15:06AM +0100, Mark R Harding wrote:
> True enough but given that TB! runs under Windows exclusively (unless
> I really missing something...) then I think it is fair to assume that
> the Windows Keystroke standard is an acceptable common standard that
> everyone already knows... it may not be a pleasant fact but I'm sure
> it's true.

You keep missing the point.  There is no standard!  Yes, they adhere to
the CUA (I think that is it) standard but that doesn't define /EDITOR/
behavior only /KEYSTROKE/ behavior.  It doesn't define free caret or not.  It
doesn't define word wrapping or not.  It only defines movement, highlighting,
cut/copy/paste.  It doesn't even define move which is a basic edit command in
my eyes.  

> had to edit files under unix on a regular basis that I really disliked
> the emacs based editors because the keystrokes required were
> completely alien to me.  

Agreed.  But I don't like how people keep calling it a standard when it is
not.  "That isn't the standard way it works."  Well, since there is no
standard defined /NONE/ of the editors work the standard way!  In fact the
/ONLY/ "standard" editor that I know of is VI!  Why?  Because VI is the only
editor I know of that doesn't exist.  Sure, there are programs called vi on
lots of unix systems, also a lot of variants of vi (vim, elvis, etc).  However
the VI editor is defined in a paper separate of implementation.

> I guess we'll not get anywhere without an editor that suits our own
> preferences but for the majority of windows users that does mean 'what
> they already know' and TB! isn't that.  

This is what I object to.

How do you reflow a paragraph in the majority of Windows applications?

Oh, yeah.  Since the CUA standard only covered keystrokes and they know
the CUA standard keystrokes /EVERYTHING ELSE/ is subject to change on an
editor by editor basis.  That is why I continually refute the notion of a
"standard" way an editor acts under Windows and why it is "easier" to have
everything integrated.  The plain and simple fact is each "standard" editor is
different than every other "standard" editor on this platform and the user is
forced to /LEARN A NEW EDITOR/ every program.  TB! is no different.

> If they don't have the time/inclination to learn then they'll pass it over.

Bingo.  And they have to learn each time.

> I'm glad I invested the time to learn the editor - it's a benfit to me but
> maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones...

I'm glad I took the time to learn VIM.  So when will TB! let me use it
instead of hobbling me with its editor?

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:58:23AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> Ah, seems I touched a nerve ;-)

Nerve, no.  Stabbed the spinal cord?  Yes.

> Currently, for mail, I use the inbuilt Eudora one. But no, I wouldn't mind
> using Notepad as an editor, but I sure as hell don't want to need to invoke
> it myself. My mail client should.

Which is what every mail client and most BBSs did before Windows came
along.  It is, quite frankly, how it should have been done before the utter
force-fed crap that Microsoft has foisted on the masses as "easy".

> Don't use me for your own war, I'll refuse ;-)
>   I'd rather that somebody address the overkill issue.

Which I am doing.  Here it is, if the client called an external editor you
could define what features you wanted by calling a different editor.  This
leaves the authors of the mail client free to /FIX/ problems in their client.

Not that *cough*IMAP*cough* TB has any *COUGH*poor filter dialog*COUGH*
any, more mail or UI *cough*lack of inheiretance*cough* that needs to be
addressed.

> To not undo your CR and TAB? _That_ is what YTB is currently doing. I get
> kicked back to the previous line. I find that unacceptable.

Turn off auto-format.  My editors don't do that, when using TB! it doesn't
do that.  When I tell it to reflow a paragraph it does.  However, I don't have
that turned on by default.  I'd not complain about something you're telling it
to do.

> For advanced eatures: granted. But I wouldn't call allowing  
> advanced.

I would call auto-reformat advanced.  Don't like it, shut it off.

>  >On paper, yes.  In electronic mail, no.
 
> Says you. Besides, national habits and styles notwithstanding, who is my
> mail client to tell me what _my_ mails should look like?

No, says the online community which has been going on for 20+ years now.
As I said, you are now in the ONLINE culture.  It isn't national by any means,
it is its own culture.  As for your question your mail client is doing it
because:
A: it has a built in editor when it shouldn't.
B: You've chosen to tell it to tell you.

> Yes. Notepad will do. 

Of course there are more alternatives than Notepad.  Take a look at the
editors section of www.winfiles.com sometime.  They had to split it into three
sections because it is so large.  I find it amazing that the basic text editor
is one of the most fundimental interfaces into the computer that people will
have yet most people never think to get something that suits their needs in
90% of the cases in one editor.  Alas most of the people who don't look for an
editor that suits the majority of their work also are the same people who will
suffer with the crap $20 keyboard and $10 mouse that the brand name
manufacturers will foist on them.  *shrug*

> I dont want fancy stuff. I just want to be able to set my line length, my
> tabs, use CR's at will, have Ctrl-Z and that is basically it. I don't want
> another word porcessor. I have one. In my mail I want a simple text editor,
> and I won't mind it at all if I can use the plain text editors that I
> already have,

Exactly.  And you'd most likely be more productive because you would know
what the capabilities were.  That is why I'd love to use VIM and the more and
more I don't use TB! at home and use Mutt which calls VIM the more I lean
towards dropping TB! completely because my editing goes so much faster in VIM.
The /ONLY/ thing I miss in VIM is the auto-spellchecking.  All the other
features of VIM are far superior to TB!'s editor it isn't even funny.  Of
course the fact I use this editor for configuration file editing, coding,
mail & news writing and many, many other uses has something to do with that.  

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:59:50PM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:
> The origin of this behaviour that is present in most Windows based
> editors that may have reason to use is pretty much besides the point.
> The reality is that if you are developing an application for Windows
> users then you are faced with this unfortunate fact and that is that
> most are accustomed to a certain behaviour or functionality.

Which still doesn't make it a standard.  What what is coding to is
perceptions, not a standard.  And 99% of what an editor does, IMHO, isn't even
in that perception.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Januk,

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 01:09:59 -0700 GMT (17/09/2000, 16:09 +0800 GMT),
Januk Aggarwal wrote:

>> due partly to the time difference. They fight when we sleep...

JA> Why do you need to sleep?  

Old habit. ;-)

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello tracer,


On  Sunday, September 17, 2000  at  14:56:07 GMT  +0700 (which was 12:56 AM
where I live) witnesses say tracer typed:


> due partly to the time difference. They fight when we sleep...

Why do you need to sleep?  


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 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Thomas Fernandez,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:18:17 +0800 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, September 17, 2000, 1:18:17 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Thomas Fernandez wrote:



> this is the night shift, and I usually only get to see interesting
> threads after they have been dead-horsed. so I guess I'm lucky this
> time. :-)

due partly to the time difference. They fight when we sleep...



Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Graham]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On this one point, in the PGP-Basics newsgroup, a contributor using
GnuPG (through Linux) found that his signature couldn't be verified
by The Bat, whereas it showed up as "good" using a wide range of
mailers and even through PGPtray.

The problem appears to be with his comment line, which had two Tabs
in it.  These were converted to 16 spaces by The Bat, which messed up
his signature and The Bat couldn't verify it through its internal
processes.

As this did not happen with other mailers, I would suggest that The
Bat needs to be brought into line by a fix so that its handling of
PGP is the same for all messages.

On the subject of PGP, I cannot get PGP 2.6.3ai to be recognised by
The Bat, even though I can use it through Windows front ends such as
PGPClick and MailPGP quite easily.  The Bat's inbuilt PGP routines
use my 2.6.3ai keyring successfully and show encryption/signing with
PGP 2.6

Can anybody shed any light on this?

Graham

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 16/09/00 at 20:36 Januk Aggarwal wrote:

>
>The one thing I really like about TB's TAB is that the TAB is
>replaced by an equivalent number of spaces.  I have seen so many
>editors treat a tab character in so many different ways that I've
>totally stopped
>using the TAB key.
>

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Version: Encrypted with PGP Plugin for Calypso

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VvtXOYz0feFiI6D2h6aIqlkN
=OVTc
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Karin,

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:58:23 +0200 GMT (17/09/2000, 09:58 +0800 GMT),
Karin Spaink wrote:

KS>  >TB! loves to count replies for some reason.

KS> Ouch. I was hoping that it was a glitch in the mailing 
KS> list software, but since I read that the mailinglist 
KS> was run through TB I feared that it was a TB habit.

KS> I'm not going to switich OS in order to find the perfect mail client ;-)

No need. Just add "%Singlere" to your Reply Templates. I wish it would
be added as default, and reply counting a feature.

KS> >Of course, falls back to my whole >"should use an external editor
KS> in the first place" kick.

KS> Ah, seems I touched a nerve ;-)

One that was resolved a long time ago. See my other mail.

KS>  >BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?)

KS> She. Pic at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/images/write.html

Do you know this one:
http://www.marckp.redhotant.com/thebat/rogues.html 

I don't know who keeps it updated now, maybe Marck?

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Karin,

this is the night shift, and I usually only get to see interesting
threads after they have been dead-horsed. so I guess I'm lucky this
time. :-)

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:57:18 +0200 GMT (17/09/2000, 10:57 +0800 GMT),
Karin Spaink wrote:

KS> It can -- and should  -- distinguish one paragraph 
>>from the other by a . No empty line should be needed.

KS>  >KS> In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

This may well be your personal preference, I think it is not a country
standard.

Is it only me, or is this thread about editor preferences? No, Steve,
mentioned the same. Well, the editor is not going to change, as the
developers concentrate on the email funcitonality. However, a version
2 is in preparation, and this one will allow you to choose your
preferred external editor. Yes, you will be able to make it the
default, so it will fire up every time you create a new mail, or reply
to a mail.

KS> So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers?

I think there is a difference between an email client acting up as a
nanny, and a mailing list on the family channel. ;-)

KS>  >KS> Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0

KS>  >You're doing fine. You're suffering from withdrawal and culture shock.

 I'll join Marck here. Also, kindly try exploring why there is a blank
 in front of the ">" of your replies. Did you do that on purpose?
 Because it messses up my colour coding: replies (anything that has a
 ">" character as one of the first 20 characters in the line) is shown
 in red instead of blue, so I can easily distinguish the new stuff.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 19:54 16-09-2000 -0700, Januk Aggarwal kindly wrote:
 >Hello Karin,

 >> 'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then
 >> new massages get added to old (unread) messages.
 >> That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I
 >> don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've
 >> recieved do many here and w\so may there.

 >You can have TB run a separate application each time a given filter is
 >run.  With a suitable scripting language, you may be able to achieve
 >the result you want.  Nick was only pointing out the possibilities
 >with the *current* implementation.

I am not sure that I follow you...
Yes, I discovered that TB's filters are quite 
powerful and that you can invoke other prgrams through 
them. And yes, I can play soundfiles whenever mail for 
TB arrives in its designated folder. But ion the end 
that would create quite a racket, and all I want is 
some kind of summary -- esp. in the morning, when I 
fire up my mailer and have 37 messages arriving.
As I said: the new messages feature doens't work for 
me, becasue within folders I don't always read 
immediatelty, and in TB those mailboxes will 
invaribaly show _all_ that is unread as new. While I 
am looking for a feature that shows me what is new, not unread.



- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Mark,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:25:39 GMT +0100 (which was 8:25 PM
where I live) witnesses say Mark R Harding typed:

> To think that all this time other people knew what was going only and
> I only had to ask... sheesh... don't I feel better?!

As I said in one of my posts to this threads, even some of the real
old timers need to ask questions sometimes.  

> Actually, that's great because it was the one part of the editor I
> didn't like much - I can see the use of it but equally I often 'think'
> in terms of jumping to the next '8th character' position so I just
> surprise myself when TB notices my previous line of text and nicks the
> cursor into no-mans land...  Thanks for explaining that one.

The one thing I really like about TB's TAB is that the TAB is replaced
by an equivalent number of spaces.  I have seen so many editors treat
a tab character in so many different ways that I've totally stopped
using the TAB key.

> On another note - all of Karin's replies have the quoted parts
> indented by a single space which means, in my view at least, that the
> funky red-emboldened text that usually highlights quoted text is not
> catching it.

That's a good way to ad a '>' character to the text without it turning
colour.  Any line that starts with a space is assumed to be not a
quoted line, regardless of the existence of the > character.

>  It's amazing how unaccustomed my eye is to separating the
> text without the colour demarcation.

I know the feeling.  It is a bit of a shocker when I use other
programs.  

>  Is there anything that can be
> done to remedy this?

Un/fortunately, not unless you export those messages, edit them
externally and then re-import.




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 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

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 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Karin,

On 17 September 2000 at 04:57:18 GMT +0200 (which was 03:57 where I
live) Karin Spaink wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

>> No  we're  not.  These  are  *technical*  issues  regarding how the
>> *editor* can distinguish the next *line* from the next *paragraph*.

KS> It can -- and should -- distinguish one paragraph from the other
KS> by a . No empty line should be needed.

TB  usesto  end  a line. When auto paragraph formatting is on,
there  is  *absolutely  no*  difference  between a line which has been
wrapped  at its' end with a  and a  you typed. Now, if can you
write a clairvoyance subroutine you could sell it to RIT labs to solve
this problem .

Trust  me.  An empty line *is* needed. It's not needed in /other/ mail
editors  because  they  don't give a fig about re-formatting a message
behind the sender's back, between hitting send and letting the message
out.

>> Sorry Karin but we have *very* strict obscenity rules on this list.
>> Please do not use language like this here.

KS> In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome
KS> message.

We do: list Rules, Item 1, para b, section 2:

2. Do  not  use  profanity. Personally, I have no problem with
   it, but this list is not the place for it. If a list member
   is consistently abusive, they will be banned from the list.

KS> And now you say I can't say chili peppers? F**k.

Please - I've shown you the rule - this has to be your last warning.

KS> Good, and I had hoped that it would. But that addresses the look
KS> of the mail after sending, and doesn't guide your actions (i.e.
KS> cursor movements) while composing.

Nope,  TB  does  nothing  to  mail  text  after  sending  (other  than
sign/encrypt and dispatch). That's why it can't distinguish paragraphs
during composition. They are the same as wrapped lines unless there is
a blank line between.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Kids Stuff:
Rain is saved up in cloud banks.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:57:18 +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

KS>  One of the reasons why I want to dump Eudora is becuase of
KS> its stupid, patronizing and utterly ridiculous Moodwatch thingie,
KS> that grades "distrusted" words in e-mail with "chili peppers". (Too
KS> hot to handle.) Hence (and for some more, but this was the turning
KS> point), I started looking for another e-mail client. So I came here.
KS> And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.


This, unlike the first use of profanity, is in direct defiance of list
charter rules. A warning has been issued here. The rest of subscribers
need to know that this has been noted and dealt with. :-(


- --
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Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
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Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

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Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Karin,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:21:01 GMT +0200 (which was 7:21 PM
where I live) witnesses say Karin Spaink typed:

> Is it now. I have been on the net for six years and
> nobody ever told me that they were aggreviated by the 
> fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
> read my and theirs contributions with.

Why would they?  They can't see what font you're using.  But if you
try to do any formatting with variable width fonts, it looks really
bad.  ^^  The word formatting should have a series of
^ characters under it.  If it does not, then you aren't using a
monospaced font, and thus aren't seeing what I intended.  Of course I
could use a RTF, but you're even less likely to be able to read them.

> And if I may be so bold to ask -- isn't the whole 
> point of _not_ sending html and stylized  that
   
Haven't you already gotten two warnings about that type of language on
this list?

> this allows end users to see what they get the way 
> they want to see it?

Nobody will argue that one.  But if you do things like producing
tables or ASCII art or any other formatting in plain text, fixed width
fonts are the only way to go and ensure that everyone can read them.

>  Isn't html meant to be just 
> _structure_ which each end-user can apply their own lay-out to?

No.  HTML is a markup language.  Thus the author creates the look that
they want to the message.  Different rendering engines may display it
slightly differently, but the basics are determined by the author.


>  >No idea on the free caret but the fixed font is simple.  If everyone has
>  >variable width font then nothing comes out to look anywhere remotely as it
>  >should.

> Nonsense. What you are saying is that everybody should 
> send their mail in stylized text or html with css, 
> because only that way that get  to see it as _you_ 
> meant it. Ands last time I checked with RFC's, that was not the general idea.

I think you're missing the point.  Variable width fonts have *no*
common ground between fonts.  5 spaces in one fixed width font will
*look* like 5 spaces in any other fixed width font.

> I can see you .sig fine, thank you. Eudora _does_ 
> aloow me to switch from prop. view to fixed view at the press of a button.

But this isn't Eudora.  For now, TB supports only one class of fonts.
The members of this list are trying to explain to you some of the
logic behind that decision.

> my inbox is the designated place for unexpected mail,
> and I would like to be automatically pointed there. 
> lus, I would like to have some kind of overview: 

Currently the only way to come close to what you want is if you create
your own script in some external scripting language.  Then have TB
call this script whenever a given filter is used.

> Swans, so many; TheBat, so many; HippiesFromHell, so 
> many. The amount of new mail in each list does often 
> affect my curiostoty. And as for overview, I don't 
> think that the mailbox-list overview works -- 
> especially since I tend to mark mail-to-be-replied-to 
> or -to-be-attended-to later as 'unmarked'. They will
> show as nee. Exit overview.

Why not use the message flagging or the colour groups?  If you want
mark them as unread, why should TB assume that they aren't new?  Some
have requested another marking such as "seen but not read," but it
seems redundant with all the features currently available.



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 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

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 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi David,

On 17 September 2000 at 19:43:34 GMT -0700 (which was 03:43 where I
live) David Tod Sigafoos wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

DTS> Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told
DTS> would never happen ..

No, you were told it wasn't the way it did it right now and we are all
anxious for the programmers to concentrate on V2 issues.

DTS> i was wrong ..

No,  you  were  told  that you were right and agreed with by everyone.
Even those that supported the opposite view had reservations.

DTS> and it was a dead horse.

Yes  -  because  we  had  all said the same thing over and over again.
There was no sense in rehashing the same argument.

DTS> Only to get a message from one of the developers saying .. yep ..
DTS> we're changing it .

Yes, because it was *the consensus*.

DTS> So who knows .. if enough of us work with it and ask for some
DTS> changes AND change the way we do things .. The Bat will improve.

..  as  it  has  continued  to do throughout the time we have all been
using  it.  It is very likely that v2 will see external editor support
and  better  option  selection to allow the in-built editor to be more
conformant   with  WinUser  expectations.  I  cut  my  compu-teeth  on
mainframe  terminals  and  (much  later) DOS editors, all of which had
free  carets and fixed pitch fonts. Even now, all the main programming
language  UIs  have  the same free caret and fixed pitch. I'm right at
home  here  . The consensus is less obvious on these issues than on
the registry/ini issue. Who can tell? It might happen anyway.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:38 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:15:58PM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:

 >> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

 >Free caret I considered advanced.

Wish it were. Then I could happily switch it off ;-)

 >> For windows, cursor behaviour is pretty standard.

 >Again, it is not a standard.  That is what I said.

Seconded.

 >and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as one since it isn't
 >published and can change on a whim.

Look at what Microsoft standards did to HTML.

- K -

--
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Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 02:31 17-09-2000 +0100, Marck D. Pearlstone kindly wrote:
 >Karin Spaink wrote:

[tabs and paragraphs]

 >KS> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences
 >KS> here.

 >No  we're not. These are *technical* issues regarding how the *editor*
 >can distinguish the next *line* from the next *paragraph*.

It can -- and should  -- distinguish one paragraph 
from the other by a . No empty line should be needed.

 >KS> In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

 >Maybe not, but in a plain text editor which offer paragraph formatting
 >you *have* to.

Not when I _end_ the paragraph, methinks

 >KS> Jurek  answered  that  one. It's old, imported mail. Something got
 >KS> ** up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok.

 >^^
 >Sorry  Karin  but  we have *very* strict obscenity rules on this list.
 >Please do not use language like this here.

In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome message.

 One of the reasons why I want to dump Eudora is 
becuase of its stupid, patronizing and utterly 
ridiculous Moodwatch thingie, that grades "distrusted" 
words in e-mail with "chili peppers". (Too hot to 
handle.) Hence (and for some more, but this was the 
turning point), I started looking for another e-mail 
client. So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

 >KS> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the
 >KS> fixed fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret?

 >Fixed  font  provides  exact  WYSIWYG  formatting and free caret helps
 >(most)  or  hinders  (some)  to  format  at will. Something else needs
 >explaining here: unused space is auto-stripped from the ends of lines.

Good, and I had hoped that it would. But that 
addresses the look of the mail after sending, and 
doesn't guide your actions (i.e. cursor movements) while composing.

 >>> You  can  filter your mail on receipt and use the ticker to provide
 >>> you with a virtual folder full of *all* of your new mail

 >KS> 
 >KS> 

 >I  keep my ticker DSR (down-stage right) about 1.5" across. It doesn't
 >impinge too much and lets me at my new mail *real* quick.

I'll try that one. Thanks for the tip.

Promised. I _will_ look at the keyboard stroke section 
of the FAQ with soem more scrutiny.

 >KS> Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0

 >You're doing fine. You're suffering from withdrawal and culture shock.

 Thanks for the encouragement. That is kind. Plus, it fortifies me ;-)


- K -

--
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Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Karin,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:41:42 GMT +0200 (which was 7:41 PM
where I live) witnesses say Karin Spaink typed:

> 'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then
> new massages get added to old (unread) messages. 
> That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I 
> don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've 
> recieved do many here and w\so may there.

You can have TB run a separate application each time a given filter is
run.  With a suitable scripting language, you may be able to achieve
the result you want.  Nick was only pointing out the possibilities
with the *current* implementation.


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46c
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:43:34 -0700, David Tod Sigafoos wrote:

DTS> As you are probably seeing there is a lot of 'we know everything' and
DTS> there is only ONE way to do things .. yada yada yada.  Try to let
DTS> these notes go by .. just sympathize.

DTS> The real thing is to look at The Bat and all of its features.  I have
DTS> moved to The Bat from Eudora.  Although there is a learning curve (and
DTS> a bit of patience) it is a good move.

DTS> Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told would
DTS> never happen .. i was wrong .. and it was a dead horse.

 Who said *anything* would never happen where TB!'s development
is going?

Anyway, this editor grouse is a really old one and very much has a lot
to do with the fact that slated features for version 2 of TB! include
editor support for variable width fonts and support for the use of an
external editor and or an alternative integrated editor.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:17 16-09-2000 -0700, Nick Andriash kindly wrote:
 >On September 16, 2000, at 5:56:33 PM, Karin Spaink Wrote:

[tickeers, and filter reports]

 >> I don't want to have each and every header... I
 >> just would love to have a general overview. "The
 >> Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6 new. etc...

 >That feature is one I truly enjoy with TB!... one quick look at my Folder
 >Tree, and I can see *exactly* how many new messages (unread) I've
 >received, and which Folder they reside in.

'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then 
new massages get added to old (unread) messages. 
That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I 
don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've 
recieved do many here and w\so may there.

 >Karin, in View/Split Mode, what do you have selected? I chose Full-height
 >Account Tree, and it gives me the view you request.

Full-width preview. Mailbox tree on the left, messages 
on the right, separate windows opening for actual 
messages (i.e. no preview). I need the space on both 
the right and the left: too many mailboxes, too much new mail.

- K -

--
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Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[David Tod Sigafoos]

Hello Karin,

Just a quick note ..

As you are probably seeing there is a lot of 'we know everything' and
there is only ONE way to do things .. yada yada yada.  Try to let
these notes go by .. just sympathize.

The real thing is to look at The Bat and all of its features.  I have
moved to The Bat from Eudora.  Although there is a learning curve (and
a bit of patience) it is a good move.

Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told would
never happen .. i was wrong .. and it was a dead horse.  Only to get a
message from one of the developers saying .. yep .. we're changing it
.  So who knows .. if enough of us work with it and ask for some
changes AND change the way we do things .. The Bat will improve.

-- 
Hang in there,
 Davidmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:58:52 +0100, Mark R Harding wrote:


MRH> What does perplex me still is how exactly the tab key works.  My usual
MRH> experience from both Windows and Unix editors is that the tab key
MRH> indents the cursor position (either by a control-character or by
MRH> inserting extra white space as required) to the next 'tab-stop' which
MRH> is normally defined as a regular series of positions along the text
MRH> line - say ever 4,8,16 or however many characters.

Yes. The tabbing with TB!'s editor will tab in 8 characters at a time,
all the time, provided ''Smart' Tabs' is disabled in the editor
preferences.

MRH> In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random.
MRH> Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will jump
MRH> the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line leaving a
MRH> gap of about 60% page width.  If anyone here has the wisdom or
MRH> knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm a perplexed
MRH> person waiting for enlightenment... :)

You seem to have ''Smart' Tabs' enabled in the editor preferences. With
this option enabled, the tabbing will vary depending on the situation.
The tabbing will always adjust in such a way that the cursor ends up in
line with the first letter of the line of text above.

  So if I type this and start a new line, hit tab, I end up
  *here. See the new line starts in line with the one above.

With quoted material, it ignores the quote prefixing. So if I hit tab
below the following line:

allie>   Test line
 |the cursor ends up at the beginning of the quoted line
ignoring the prefix as above.

or

allie>  another test
|here it is.

or

> test
  |Here it is.

This is the method behind the madness of the Smart Tab. If you don't
like it, turn it off and your tabbing will be fixed at 8 characters. :-)

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 20:15 16-09-2000 -0500, A. Curtis Martin kindly wrote:

 >SL> Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
 >SL> features of an editor.

 >She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

I have. I use multiple accounts, I am filtering 
excessively, I am making standard replies and 
templates and what have you. But Steve is right in 
this: the editor sucks. I like most of what I see, but 
composing a message or replying to one is my one big hassle with TB.

 >She has been
 >complaining about basic cursor movements and responses and behaviour.
 >Trying to type paragraphs etc. For windows, cursor behaviour is pretty
 >standard.

It is not. Try using notepad, hit Enter and then Tab, 
and type. Will your soursor move up one line and undo your ?

 >>Notice here he(?) says he is

 >I think he is a she. :-)

Let's call it a tie ;-)

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:05 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:56:33AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

 >> Ah, but I don't like pitcvhed fomts to begin with.  And as I told Jurek: it
 >> feels as if somebdy is hammering it in. You _will_ 
have fixed fomts and even
 >> if you find your way around them. we will still 
make your message editor act
 >> asd if it were fixed font!

 >Trust us, it is the only way email should be.

Is it now. I have been on the net for six years and 
nobody ever told me that they were aggreviated by the 
fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
read my and theirs contributions with.

And if I may be so bold to ask -- isn't the whole 
point of _not_ sending html and stylized shit that 
this allows end users to see what they get the way 
they want to see it? Isn't html meant to be just 
_structure_ which each end-user can apply their own lay-out to?

 >> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences here. In my
 >> country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

 >Right, it is cultural.  It is the online culture to separate paragraphs
 >with a CR.  You're online, time to do as the romans do.

Thank you for kindly allowing me. And while you are the Romans, am I your Hun?

 >> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed fomt as
 >> the only alternative _and_ free caret?

 >No idea on the free caret but the fixed font is simple.  If everyone has
 >variable width font then nothing comes out to look anywhere remotely as it
 >should.

Nonsense. What you are saying is that everybody should 
send their mail in stylized text or html with css, 
because only that way that get  to see it as _you_ 
meant it. Ands last time I checked with RFC's, that was not the general idea.

 >The only sane solution is to use a fixed-width font so what you see
 >will closely approximate what they will see.  Again, refer to my signature as
 >an example.

I can see you .sig fine, thank you. Eudora _does_ 
aloow me to switch from prop. view to fixed view at the press of a button.

 >> I tried for a bit but it insisted on being over everything else -- plus, i
 >> still need to go to my inbox, and I don't have a filter report, and...

 >Feh, filter report is nasty anyway.  I don't want this stupid window
 >popping up every minute telling me I have new mail.

I am not telling you to want it. I am telling the list that _I_ miss it.

 >Yes, I check every minute
 >and during the day, on a busy day, I can get more than 1 mail a minute across
 >my accounts.  The fact that the folder list has 
hightlights and numbers of new
 >mail in each folder already tells me that I have new mail and where it is.

I got loads of mail too. And yes, I want to have an 
unobtrusive warning if any of my fave mailinglist have 
new contributions, and of course my known contacts get 
filtered into their appropriate mailboxes. But if 
you'd think a bit beyond that, you'd understand that 
my inbox is the designated place for unexpected mail, 
and I would like to be automatically pointed there. 
lus, I would like to have some kind of overview: 
Swans, so many; TheBat, so many; HippiesFromHell, so 
many. The amount of new mail in each list does often 
affect my curiostoty. And as for overview, I don't 
think that the mailbox-list overview works -- 
especially since I tend to mark mail-to-be-replied-to 
or -to-be-attended-to later as 'unmarked'. They will 
show as nee. Exit overview.

 >If you want it to bouce to your inbox chances 
are you're not filtering and
 >are already sitting in your inbox.

I am filtering abundantly, thank you very much.

 >If you are filtering then your mail isn't
 >going to the inbox and, again, there is no need for it.

Why do I suddenly get the idea that you're arrogant?

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Mark,

On 17 September 2000 at 02:58:52 GMT +0100 (which was 02:58 where I
live) Mark R Harding wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

MRH> In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random.
MRH> Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will
MRH> jump the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line
MRH> leaving a gap of about 60% page width. If anyone here has the
MRH> wisdom or knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm
MRH> a perplexed person waiting for enlightenment... :)

TB's  TAB  is  set up for tabular entry. It keys on the spacing in the
line(s) above - no matter how far above - for tab stops. Like this:

   Col1   Col2   Col3 Col4   Col5
   Tab1   tab2   tab3 tab4   tab5

Only  in  a  blank  and  empty  editor  window  does  TAB  do anything
"sensible".

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 17:47 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:36:13AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

 >> 1. Why does my reply to Januk gets garbled in the Subject line and suddenly
 >> gets "Re[2]: etc" instead of your standard "Re: etc"?

 >TB! loves to count replies for some reason.

Ouch. I was hoping that it was a glitch in the mailing 
list software, but since I read that the mailinglist 
was run through TB I feared that it was a TB habit.

 >You can turn that off in the
 >templates.  The exact macro eludes me at the moment.  Again, on Linux, not
 >Windows.

I'm not going to switich OS in order to find the perfect mail client ;-)

 >> 2. How come that Ctrl-Z only works partially? What 
I added (new CR's) can be
 >> undone, but what I inadvertedly deleted cannot be brought back.

 >That always annoyed me.  Call it a bug.

If I am correct in my assessment, it's a bug.

 >Of course, falls back to my whole
 >"should use an external editor in the first place" kick.

Ah, seems I touched a nerve ;-)

 >Already the editor
 >is annoying you in several ways.  If it were external you'd just continue
 >running the editor you'd always run.

Currently, for mail, I use the inbuilt Eudora one. But 
no, I wouldn't mind using Notepad as an editor, but I 
sure as hell don't want to need to invoke it myself. My mail client should.

 >> I severely dislike this feature. It is in itself a 
reason to give up The Bat
 >> (and explore other clients). But apart from my personal likes and dislikes,
 >> I don't think that your argument holds.  Yes, this is a nice feature when
 >> you make a table; but how often do you make a table as compared to you
 >> editing your message and moving up and down through it?

 >See, another fine case for an external editor.

Don't use me for your own war, I'll refuse ;-)
I'd rather that somebody address the overkill issue.

 >> I am growing more used to it, but I find all the extra keystrokes a hassle.
 >> And it _is_ non-standard.

 >Tell me, what /is/ standard in editors?  :)

To not undo your CR and TAB? _That_ is what YTB is 
currently doing. I get kicked back to the previous 
line. I find that unacceptable.

 >Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
 >features of an editor.

For advanced eatures: granted. But I wouldn't call 
allowing   advanced.

 >> That is more than just a matter of taste: it's a national habit. And I am
 >> not US or Canadian. To people I correspond with, it looks weird; and to my
 >> peers -- I am a writer -- it looks awkward. A tab is the marker for a
 >> paragraph, a blank line the marker for a new idea.

 >On paper, yes.  In electronic mail, no.

Says you. Besides, national habits and styles 
notwithstanding, who is my mail client to tell me what 
_my_ mails should look like?

 >> Listen. I am demanding. I know that. And I am not trying to piss you off.
 >> But I _am_ desperate for a mail client that has lots of features and can be
 >> fine-tuned to a huge degree.

 >BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?)

She. Pic at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/images/write.html

 >says he is
 >looking for an email client which is tunable yet all 
his complaints, thus far,
 >have been with the /editor/?

Actually, this rephrasal fits me to a T. Thank you. 
There are quite some reasons why I like TB. The 
interface, threading, good filtering, nice 
personalised templates (so WTF can't I personalise my 
layout and my editor?), nice bonus thrown in (cookies 
allowing for a rotating .sig) and the one thing that I 
dislike is how I am forced to COMPOSE a mail.

 >> The reasons? I get heaps of mail (so I need good filtering and
 >> auto-replies), I type fast but with lots of errors (so they should be easy
 >> to correct and my cursor should be easy to focus), I use my mail client 10
 >> hours per day. I hate the bloatware that Eudora is becoming and I dislike
 >> the road that they are taking. I have been using Eudora for 5 years.
 >> Basically, I want all it had plus some bug-fixing and less new (stupid)
 >> features.

 >Let me ask you a simple question.  If you could replace the editor with
 >something else, go out to an external editor so you could choose the editor
 >you wanted to use (personally, I'd use VIM but most people here don't want to
 >deal with a VI clone with tons of added features) would you take that route
 >and keep TB?

Yes. Notepad will do. I dont want fancy stuff. I just 
want to be able to set my line length, my tabs, use 
CR's at will, have Ctrl-Z and that is basically it. I 
don't want another word porcessor. I have one. In my 
mail I want a simple text editor, and I won't mind it 
at all if I can use the plain text editors that I already have,

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

-- 
--

Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:38:08 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

SL> That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard.

The origin of this behaviour that is present in most Windows based
editors that may have reason to use is pretty much besides the point.
The reality is that if you are developing an application for Windows
users then you are faced with this unfortunate fact and that is that
most are accustomed to a certain behaviour or functionality.

SL> There is a big difference. AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what
SL> keystrokes do, not editor behavior. There is a difference.

I realize this. I see that I used the word 'Standard' rather loosely.
:-)

>> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

SL> Free caret I considered advanced.

Simple text editing is not advanced use. Notepad and virtually all
windows based editors will behave exactly the way she desires. :-) If
they offer a free caret interface, the four I've had opportunity to use
had the free caret interface toggled off by default. If this is the
case, then the editor cursor behaviour she desires may, in a sense, be
considered standard behaviour. Nuh? :-)

SL> Again, it is not a standard. That is what I said. There is no
SL> standard and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as
SL> one since it isn't published and can change on a whim.

Sure. I agree but that doesn't negate anything I'm trying to get across
to you.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Some nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

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Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:15:58PM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:
> This is another thing that I have been indicating to you. In windows,
> the basic behaviour of most editors is really standard. This is why
> TB!'s editor is a real 'culture shocker' for those who are used to using
> different editors for various applications.

That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard.  There is a big
difference.  AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what keystrokes do, not editor
behavior.  There is a difference.  

> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such. 

Free caret I considered advanced.

> She has been complaining about basic cursor movements and responses and
> behaviour.  Trying to type paragraphs etc. For windows, cursor behaviour is
> pretty standard.

Again, it is not a standard.  That is what I said.  There is no standard
and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as one since it isn't
published and can change on a whim.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

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Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:56:33 +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

KS> Jurek answered that one. It's old, imported mail. Something got
KS> fucked up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok.
^^

Since this is an international group with people of different cultures
subscribed; attitudes toward profanity may very well be mixed with some
taking offense and others not. To maintain as tranquil and as peaceful
an atmosphere as possible on this list, we have decided to 'outlaw' the
use of profanity here.


>> I  don't.  It  will  make  my  plain  text  justified  paragraphs look
>> absolutely  terrible.

KS> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed
KS> fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret?

I have no personal problems with your query. But with respect to
variable width fonts, it can really create problems with formatting of
the sender not being properly appreciated by the recipient. Variable
width fonts do look better but their use is sender centric so to speak.
What I mean is that the sender admires their message format but the
recipient fails to see what there is to admire because they are using a
different font.

Take for instance. As seen above, I underlined one of your words. If I
had used a variable width font, it really wouldn't make sense doing it
because you wouldn't see it as such at your end.

Copy and paste the text to an editor that supports variable width fonts
and look at it with various variable width fonts to see what I'm getting
at.

I agree that it's a pity that fixed width fonts are generally ugly but
they are better to use for plain text based correspondences. I have
found happiness with 'Lucida Sans Typ' at size 10 using large fonts at a
1600x1200 resolution. I never really felt happy with look until now so
I know what you mean. :-)

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
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- ---
** "Don't Take Life Seriously, It Is Not Permanent. "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

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