Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

Good night



On Dec 15, 2009, at 12:38 AM, "ellie :)"  wrote:


Ttyl. Sleep time

On 12/15/09, ellie :)  wrote:

Im sure we can come to an easy agreement at the meeting. The sentence
I sent you to forward is very broad and we can add details to the
actuall motion as the meeting day approaches. Just dont add or
subtract from what I recommended for you to post. You could add...
"Silence is consent." That would be a nice touch

On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:

have you had this discussion with anyone else?

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :) 
wrote:

Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had
been in bed the whole time, no luck though

On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:

Really think we should put that over Cavetex?

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :)  


wrote:
So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to  
whatever

related posts:
I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free  
Texas Caver

committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting  where
registered members present can vote for a majority.
Include meeting location details if desired.

On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to  
go

hand
in hand with this?

I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a  
hard

cover should have to pay for that privilege :)



On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) >

wrote:

Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can  
table the
Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for  
debate at

the
Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor  
and make

a
motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then  
the
registered members present will vote and the majority wins.  
Sounds

fun
and simple, right? You in?

On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:

I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.

Isn't that why you have geek friends?

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) >

wrote:
I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the  
January

business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im
embarrassed
that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.

On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and  
wrote

down
the
ideas.

No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched  
to an

aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in
computers
tho, LOL

:)

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :)

wrote:
Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will  
lay

out
a
simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next
meeting.
I
have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You
probably
have material prepared as well

On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith   
wrote:
I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees,  
and

while
I
think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for  
free, I

think
that it will bring in more members in the long run.

The information should be free.

Charles

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)

wrote:
I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA  
member,

you
would
support having a small income for the organization. I  
will

offer
to
give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way  
think

that
there
should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to
market
for
him though(you)-i wont

On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith   
wrote:
Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement  
within the

last
year
or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark  
about

matching
that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.

Charles

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar >

wrote:

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
Brooks  wrote:


I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will  
go

digital
if
Ediger
renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make  
that

commitment?


Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and  
donate $100

to
the
TSA
within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free
publication
to
any
caver
who wants to sign up for a free subscription.  
Subscribing

non-TSA
members
should be solicited to join TSA but membership should  
not be

a
requirement
for receiving all the good caving information aimed at
bettering
the
cause
of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I,  
personally,

would
want
every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional  
material,

safety
information, articles about equipment and techniques,  
cave

science,
upcoming
events which they can support by attending, trip and  
cave

reports,
and
participating personally by attending TSA conventions  
and

contributing
articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which  
will

also
benefit
ME.
I
am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to  
read The

TEXAS
CAVER
because I will benefit from them being more informed  
and

better
cavers.
They
do not have to b

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

Ttyl. Sleep time

On 12/15/09, ellie :)  wrote:
> Im sure we can come to an easy agreement at the meeting. The sentence
> I sent you to forward is very broad and we can add details to the
> actuall motion as the meeting day approaches. Just dont add or
> subtract from what I recommended for you to post. You could add...
> "Silence is consent." That would be a nice touch
>
> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> have you had this discussion with anyone else?
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :) 
>> wrote:
>>> Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had
>>> been in bed the whole time, no luck though
>>>
>>> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 Really think we should put that over Cavetex?

 On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever
> related posts:
> I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
> committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting  where
> registered members present can vote for a majority.
> Include meeting location details if desired.
>
> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go
>> hand
>> in hand with this?
>>
>> I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
>> cover should have to pay for that privilege :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) 
>> wrote:
>>> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
>>> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
>>> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at
>>> the
>>> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make
>>> a
>>> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
>>> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds
>>> fun
>>> and simple, right? You in?
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.

 Isn't that why you have geek friends?

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
> business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im
> embarrassed
> that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote
>> down
>> the
>> ideas.
>>
>> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
>> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in
>> computers
>> tho, LOL
>>
>> :)
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :)
>> 
>> wrote:
>>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay
>>> out
>>> a
>>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next
>>> meeting.
>>> I
>>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You
>>> probably
>>> have material prepared as well
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and
 while
 I
 think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I
 think
 that it will bring in more members in the long run.

 The information should be free.

 Charles

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)
 
 wrote:
> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member,
> you
> would
> support having a small income for the organization. I will
> offer
> to
> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think
> that
> there
> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to
> market
> for
> him though(you)-i wont
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the
>> last
>> year
>> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
>> matching
>> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar 
>> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>>> Brooks  wrote:

 I want t

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

Im sure we can come to an easy agreement at the meeting. The sentence
I sent you to forward is very broad and we can add details to the
actuall motion as the meeting day approaches. Just dont add or
subtract from what I recommended for you to post. You could add...
"Silence is consent." That would be a nice touch

On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> have you had this discussion with anyone else?
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :)  wrote:
>> Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had
>> been in bed the whole time, no luck though
>>
>> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> Really think we should put that over Cavetex?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever
 related posts:
 I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
 committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting  where
 registered members present can vote for a majority.
 Include meeting location details if desired.

 On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
> in hand with this?
>
> I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
> cover should have to pay for that privilege :)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
>> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
>> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
>> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
>> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
>> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
>> and simple, right? You in?
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.
>>>
>>> Isn't that why you have geek friends?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
 business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
 that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote
> down
> the
> ideas.
>
> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in
> computers
> tho, LOL
>
> :)
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out
>> a
>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting.
>> I
>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You
>> probably
>> have material prepared as well
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and
>>> while
>>> I
>>> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I
>>> think
>>> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>>>
>>> The information should be free.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)
>>> 
>>> wrote:
 I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you
 would
 support having a small income for the organization. I will offer
 to
 give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that
 there
 should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market
 for
 him though(you)-i wont

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the
> last
> year
> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
> matching
> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar 
> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>> Brooks  wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go
>>> digital
>>> if
>>> Ediger
>>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that
>>> commitment?
>>
>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to
>

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

I suggested all this to Mark and  that we discuss it in Jan. He is
cool w/ it. Jerry wants resolution...your post would be the answer
everyone is waiting for

On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> have you had this discussion with anyone else?
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :)  wrote:
>> Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had
>> been in bed the whole time, no luck though
>>
>> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> Really think we should put that over Cavetex?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever
 related posts:
 I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
 committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting  where
 registered members present can vote for a majority.
 Include meeting location details if desired.

 On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
> in hand with this?
>
> I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
> cover should have to pay for that privilege :)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
>> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
>> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
>> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
>> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
>> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
>> and simple, right? You in?
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.
>>>
>>> Isn't that why you have geek friends?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
 business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
 that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote
> down
> the
> ideas.
>
> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in
> computers
> tho, LOL
>
> :)
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out
>> a
>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting.
>> I
>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You
>> probably
>> have material prepared as well
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and
>>> while
>>> I
>>> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I
>>> think
>>> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>>>
>>> The information should be free.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)
>>> 
>>> wrote:
 I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you
 would
 support having a small income for the organization. I will offer
 to
 give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that
 there
 should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market
 for
 him though(you)-i wont

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the
> last
> year
> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
> matching
> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar 
> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>> Brooks  wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go
>>> digital
>>> if
>>> Ediger
>>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that
>>> commitment?
>>
>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to
>> the
>> TSA
>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free
>> publication
>> to

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

have you had this discussion with anyone else?

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, ellie :)  wrote:
> Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had
> been in bed the whole time, no luck though
>
> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Really think we should put that over Cavetex?
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :)  wrote:
>>> So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever
>>> related posts:
>>> I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
>>> committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting  where
>>> registered members present can vote for a majority.
>>> Include meeting location details if desired.
>>>
>>> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
 in hand with this?

 I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
 cover should have to pay for that privilege :)



 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
> and simple, right? You in?
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.
>>
>> Isn't that why you have geek friends?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
>> wrote:
>>> I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
>>> business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
>>> that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down
 the
 ideas.

 No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
 aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
 tho, LOL

 :)

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
> have material prepared as well
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while
>> I
>> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I
>> think
>> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>>
>> The information should be free.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) 
>> wrote:
>>> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you
>>> would
>>> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer
>>> to
>>> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that
>>> there
>>> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market
>>> for
>>> him though(you)-i wont
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last
 year
 or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
 matching
 that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.

 Charles

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar 
 wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
> Brooks  wrote:
>>
>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital
>> if
>> Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that
>> commitment?
>
> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to
> the
> TSA
> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication
> to
> any
> caver
> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing
> non-TSA
> members
> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
> requirement
> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering
> the
> cause
> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

Yes. Ive been sick for 4 days- ive been thinking a lot. Wish I had
been in bed the whole time, no luck though

On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Really think we should put that over Cavetex?
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :)  wrote:
>> So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever
>> related posts:
>> I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
>> committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting  where
>> registered members present can vote for a majority.
>> Include meeting location details if desired.
>>
>> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
>>> in hand with this?
>>>
>>> I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
>>> cover should have to pay for that privilege :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
 Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
 Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
 Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
 motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
 registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
 and simple, right? You in?

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.
>
> Isn't that why you have geek friends?
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
>> business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
>> that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down
>>> the
>>> ideas.
>>>
>>> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
>>> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
>>> tho, LOL
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
 simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
 have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
 have material prepared as well

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while
> I
> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I
> think
> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>
> The information should be free.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you
>> would
>> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer
>> to
>> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that
>> there
>> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market
>> for
>> him though(you)-i wont
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last
>>> year
>>> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
>>> matching
>>> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar 
>>> wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
 Brooks  wrote:
>
> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital
> if
> Ediger
> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that
> commitment?

 Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to
 the
 TSA
 within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication
 to
 any
 caver
 who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing
 non-TSA
 members
 should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
 requirement
 for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering
 the
 cause
 of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally,
 would
 want
 every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material,
 safety
 information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave
 scien

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

Really think we should put that over Cavetex?

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, ellie :)  wrote:
> So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever
> related posts:
> I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
> committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting  where
> registered members present can vote for a majority.
> Include meeting location details if desired.
>
> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
>> in hand with this?
>>
>> I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
>> cover should have to pay for that privilege :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>>> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
>>> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
>>> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
>>> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
>>> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
>>> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
>>> and simple, right? You in?
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.

 Isn't that why you have geek friends?

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
> business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
> that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down
>> the
>> ideas.
>>
>> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
>> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
>> tho, LOL
>>
>> :)
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
>> wrote:
>>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
>>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
>>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
>>> have material prepared as well
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
 think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
 that it will bring in more members in the long run.

 The information should be free.

 Charles

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you
> would
> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that
> there
> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
> him though(you)-i wont
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last
>> year
>> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
>> matching
>> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>>> Brooks  wrote:

 I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital
 if
 Ediger
 renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that
 commitment?
>>>
>>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the
>>> TSA
>>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to
>>> any
>>> caver
>>> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
>>> members
>>> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
>>> requirement
>>> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering
>>> the
>>> cause
>>> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would
>>> want
>>> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material,
>>> safety
>>> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave
>>> science,
>>> upcoming
>>> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports,
>>> and
>>> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and
>>> contributing
>>> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also
>>> benefit
>>> ME.
>>> I
>>> am selfish. I want all 

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

So, copy and paste this following message and forward it to whatever
related posts:
I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting  where
registered members present can vote for a majority.
Include meeting location details if desired.

On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
> in hand with this?
>
> I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
> cover should have to pay for that privilege :)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
>> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
>> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
>> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
>> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
>> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
>> and simple, right? You in?
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.
>>>
>>> Isn't that why you have geek friends?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
 business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
 that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down
> the
> ideas.
>
> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
> tho, LOL
>
> :)
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
>> have material prepared as well
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
>>> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
>>> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>>>
>>> The information should be free.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you
 would
 support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
 give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that
 there
 should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
 him though(you)-i wont

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last
> year
> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
> matching
> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>> Brooks  wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital
>>> if
>>> Ediger
>>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that
>>> commitment?
>>
>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the
>> TSA
>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to
>> any
>> caver
>> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
>> members
>> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
>> requirement
>> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering
>> the
>> cause
>> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would
>> want
>> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material,
>> safety
>> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave
>> science,
>> upcoming
>> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports,
>> and
>> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and
>> contributing
>> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also
>> benefit
>> ME.
>> I
>> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS
>> CAVER
>> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better
>> cavers.
>> They
>> do not have to be TSA members to be better c

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

Cool, let me know if I can help further

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:08 AM, ellie :)  wrote:
> Yes of course, and the member fee increase. If it all sticks to your
> motion, and doesnt stray, we can cover a lot of business in a very
> short time with the members present. We will need handouts detailing
> everything but that is simple and I will volunteer to do it. We have
> time and I would rather focus on caves and caving now.
>
> On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
>> in hand with this?
>>
>> I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
>> cover should have to pay for that privilege :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>>> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
>>> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
>>> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
>>> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
>>> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
>>> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
>>> and simple, right? You in?
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.

 Isn't that why you have geek friends?

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
> business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
> that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down
>> the
>> ideas.
>>
>> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
>> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
>> tho, LOL
>>
>> :)
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
>> wrote:
>>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
>>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
>>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
>>> have material prepared as well
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
 think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
 that it will bring in more members in the long run.

 The information should be free.

 Charles

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you
> would
> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that
> there
> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
> him though(you)-i wont
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last
>> year
>> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
>> matching
>> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>>> Brooks  wrote:

 I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital
 if
 Ediger
 renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that
 commitment?
>>>
>>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the
>>> TSA
>>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to
>>> any
>>> caver
>>> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
>>> members
>>> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
>>> requirement
>>> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering
>>> the
>>> cause
>>> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would
>>> want
>>> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material,
>>> safety
>>> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave
>>> science,
>>> upcoming
>>> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports,
>>> and
>>> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and
>>> contributing
>>> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also
>>> benefit
>>> ME.
>>> I
>>> am selfish. I want 

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

Yes of course, and the member fee increase. If it all sticks to your
motion, and doesnt stray, we can cover a lot of business in a very
short time with the members present. We will need handouts detailing
everything but that is simple and I will volunteer to do it. We have
time and I would rather focus on caves and caving now.

On 12/15/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
> in hand with this?
>
> I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
> cover should have to pay for that privilege :)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
>> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
>> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
>> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
>> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
>> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
>> and simple, right? You in?
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.
>>>
>>> Isn't that why you have geek friends?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
 business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
 that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down
> the
> ideas.
>
> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
> tho, LOL
>
> :)
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
>> have material prepared as well
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
>>> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
>>> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>>>
>>> The information should be free.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you
 would
 support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
 give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that
 there
 should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
 him though(you)-i wont

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last
> year
> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about
> matching
> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>> Brooks  wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital
>>> if
>>> Ediger
>>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that
>>> commitment?
>>
>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the
>> TSA
>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to
>> any
>> caver
>> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
>> members
>> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
>> requirement
>> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering
>> the
>> cause
>> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would
>> want
>> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material,
>> safety
>> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave
>> science,
>> upcoming
>> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports,
>> and
>> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and
>> contributing
>> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also
>> benefit
>> ME.
>> I
>> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS
>> CAVER
>> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better
>> cavers.
>> They
>> do not have to be TSA members to

Re: [Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2

[Charles Goldsmith]

Actually Jerry, I'm the one who brought up (yet again) that we should
push for the Digital cheaper version of TSA and less paper waste.  I
don't think it was Mark's intention with his story.  I just took his
story and ran with it.

Gil's idea has merit, and it helps out all of the caving community,
not just TSA members.

Charles

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:02 AM,   wrote:
> Let's see now.  I pay for a Texas Caver with my dues to the TSA.  Then I
> receive my electronic copy off the TSA website.  Then I get in my car and
> drive to the FedEx or wherever to pay for a printed version.  All to save
> the TSA a little money and the editor some grief.  Now multiply this
> scenario 4 times a year for about half the TSA membership.  I don't believe
> that's a better world for anyone.
>
> I agree with Mixon that a two-tiered system has probably come of age for the
> TSA.  But it also means that dues should be proportionally reduced for those
> that choose to receive an electronic copy of the TxCvr.  Unless, of
> course, the reason for reducing the costs of the TxCvr is to create a large
> cash surplus for the TSA.
>
> Saving the TSA money is a noble goal but providing the membership with
> tangible services is really the purpose of the whole organization.  The
> membership is quite diverse and their needs should be accommodated as much
> as possible, not made to feel defensive because they aren't the same as some
> faction within the group.  I'm disappointed that in the present discussion,
> there are some that feel that their view has got to be the only reasonable
> way.  Why not work toward a reasonable compromise that works for all the
> membership ?
>
> The current discussion regarding whether or not a hardcopy version of the
> TxCvr should be published has thus far produced nothing to provide better
> services for the membership and caused mostly dissension in an organization
> that needs more members and participation.  I'm a little surprised that the
> Chairman thought this was an interesting way to stir up the restive masses.
> Let sleeping dogs lie.
>
> Jerry.
>
> In a message dated 12/14/2009 8:31:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> gi...@att.net writes:
>
> Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto
> your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser
> printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that
> postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical
> hassle. It's the best of both worlds.
> --Ediger
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2

[JerryAtkin]

 
Let's see now.  I pay for a Texas Caver with my dues to the TSA.   Then I 
receive my electronic copy off the TSA website.  Then I get in my  car and 
drive to the FedEx or wherever to pay for a printed version.  All  to save the 
TSA a little money and the editor some grief.  Now multiply  this scenario 
4 times a year for about half the TSA membership.  I  don't believe that's a 
better world for anyone.
 
I agree with Mixon that a two-tiered system has probably come of age for  
the TSA.  But it also means that dues should be proportionally reduced for  
those that choose to receive an electronic copy of the TxCvr.  Unless, of  
course, the reason for reducing the costs of the TxCvr is to create a large  
cash surplus for the TSA.
 
Saving the TSA money is a noble goal but providing the membership with  
tangible services is really the purpose of the whole organization.  The  
membership is quite diverse and their needs should be accommodated as much  as 
possible, not made to feel defensive because they aren't the same as some  
faction within the group.  I'm disappointed that in the present discussion,  
there are some that feel that their view has got to be the only reasonable  
way.  Why not work toward a reasonable compromise that works for all the  
membership ?
 
The current discussion regarding whether or not a hardcopy version of  the 
TxCvr should be published has thus far produced nothing to provide better  
services for the membership and caused mostly dissension in an organization 
that  needs more members and participation.  I'm a little surprised that the  
Chairman thought this was an interesting way to stir up the restive  
masses.  Let sleeping dogs lie.
 
Jerry.
 
In a message dated 12/14/2009 8:31:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
gi...@att.net writes:

Don't  anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file 
onto your  memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color 
laser  printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that 
postage  and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical 
hassle.  It's the best of both worlds.  
--Ediger

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

Sure, do you think we should bring up the 2 tier membership to go hand
in hand with this?

I dont' know what the costs should be, but people who want a hard
cover should have to pay for that privilege :)



On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
> Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
> Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
> Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
> Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
> motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
> registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
> and simple, right? You in?
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.
>>
>> Isn't that why you have geek friends?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>>> I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
>>> business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
>>> that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the
 ideas.

 No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
 aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
 tho, LOL

 :)

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
 wrote:
> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
> have material prepared as well
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
>> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
>> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>>
>> The information should be free.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) 
>> wrote:
>>> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would
>>> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
>>> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there
>>> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
>>> him though(you)-i wont
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last
 year
 or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
 that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.

 Charles

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
> Brooks  wrote:
>>
>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if
>> Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>
> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the
> TSA
> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to
> any
> caver
> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
> members
> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
> requirement
> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the
> cause
> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would
> want
> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science,
> upcoming
> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports,
> and
> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and
> contributing
> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also
> benefit
> ME.
> I
> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS
> CAVER
> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better
> cavers.
> They
> do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be
> better
> cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas
> caving
> community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER.
> And
> their
> participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for
> Texas
> caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can
> provide
> to
> cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be
> a
> better participant in Tex

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

Yes, many geek friends w/ technological skills.
Will you be the Free Texas Caver committee chair? We can table the
Texas Caver conversation now and you can bring it up for debate at the
Jan meeting. At the Jan meeting, you will obtain the floor and make a
motion to the TSA chair. He will then accept/reject and then the
registered members present will vote and the majority wins. Sounds fun
and simple, right? You in?

On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.
>
> Isn't that why you have geek friends?
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>> I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
>> business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
>> that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the
>>> ideas.
>>>
>>> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
>>> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
>>> tho, LOL
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :) 
>>> wrote:
 Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
 simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
 have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
 have material prepared as well

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>
> The information should be free.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :) 
> wrote:
>> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would
>> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
>> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there
>> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
>> him though(you)-i wont
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last
>>> year
>>> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
>>> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
 Brooks  wrote:
>
> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if
> Ediger
> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?

 Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the
 TSA
 within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to
 any
 caver
 who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
 members
 should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
 requirement
 for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the
 cause
 of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would
 want
 every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
 information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science,
 upcoming
 events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports,
 and
 participating personally by attending TSA conventions and
 contributing
 articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also
 benefit
 ME.
 I
 am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS
 CAVER
 because I will benefit from them being more informed and better
 cavers.
 They
 do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be
 better
 cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas
 caving
 community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER.
 And
 their
 participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for
 Texas
 caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can
 provide
 to
 cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be
 a
 better participant in Texas caving.
 I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the
 TSA."
 I
 think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available
 to
 all
 Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better
 informed
 group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TS

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

I'm somewhat familiar with RRO, read through it years ago.

Isn't that why you have geek friends?

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
> I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
> business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
> that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the
>> ideas.
>>
>> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
>> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
>> tho, LOL
>>
>> :)
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
>>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
>>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
>>> have material prepared as well
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
 think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
 that it will bring in more members in the long run.

 The information should be free.

 Charles

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would
> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there
> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
> him though(you)-i wont
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year
>> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
>> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>>> Brooks  wrote:

 I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if
 Ediger
 renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>>
>>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
>>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any
>>> caver
>>> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
>>> members
>>> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
>>> requirement
>>> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the
>>> cause
>>> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would
>>> want
>>> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
>>> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science,
>>> upcoming
>>> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
>>> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
>>> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit
>>> ME.
>>> I
>>> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS
>>> CAVER
>>> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better
>>> cavers.
>>> They
>>> do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be
>>> better
>>> cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas
>>> caving
>>> community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And
>>> their
>>> participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for
>>> Texas
>>> caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide
>>> to
>>> cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
>>> better participant in Texas caving.
>>> I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA."
>>> I
>>> think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available
>>> to
>>> all
>>> Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better
>>> informed
>>> group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
>>> helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which
>>> is
>>> promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
>>> finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
>>> selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away
>>> digitally.
>>> It
>>> costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do
>>> something
>>> selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
>>> earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to
>>> make
>>> it
>>> free to any digital subscriber.  Oth

[Texascavers] Re: Endless Restoration Project

[Logan McNatt]

Thank you Karen, for such a quick response to my request!  And it
actually involves three Texas cavers (still counting you) going caving
in ...uh, what we fondly refer to as Far West Texas.  This is the sort
of "Endless" discussion this list needs!  Have a great trip and be sure
to send a report.  (But remember, I don't think attachments are allowed
on the list.)

Logan 

I am so excited I can hardly contain myself. Tom Byrd and Carl Kunath
are coming to Carlsbad this weekend to join in the Endless Restoration
Project.

The
McKittrick Hill caves have been closed now for several years with only
resto permits being issued. The projects have toiled along slowly but
with much progress being made. Things are starting to truly show the
cave recovering from decades of mud & dirt being trampled into
places that should have never been walked on. Carbide dumps are
disappearing, broken flash bulbs removed, damaged formations
repaired...

Well, check out some of these photos. hope to wet your appetite for
more...

Karen
one of the McKittrick Project Leaders



-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

I majored in Business. I will forward you a script for the January
business meeting- Roberts Rule of Order, its simple. Im embarrassed
that I thought black meant red. I suck w/ computers.

On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the
> ideas.
>
> No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
> aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
> tho, LOL
>
> :)
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
>> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
>> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
>> have material prepared as well
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
>>> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
>>> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>>>
>>> The information should be free.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
 I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would
 support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
 give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there
 should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
 him though(you)-i wont

 On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year
> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>> Brooks  wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if
>>> Ediger
>>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>
>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any
>> caver
>> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
>> members
>> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
>> requirement
>> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the
>> cause
>> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would
>> want
>> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
>> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science,
>> upcoming
>> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
>> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
>> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit
>> ME.
>> I
>> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS
>> CAVER
>> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better
>> cavers.
>> They
>> do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be
>> better
>> cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas
>> caving
>> community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And
>> their
>> participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for
>> Texas
>> caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide
>> to
>> cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
>> better participant in Texas caving.
>> I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA."
>> I
>> think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available
>> to
>> all
>> Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better
>> informed
>> group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
>> helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which
>> is
>> promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
>> finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
>> selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away
>> digitally.
>> It
>> costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do
>> something
>> selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
>> earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to
>> make
>> it
>> free to any digital subscriber.  Otherwise, we're just preaching to
>> the
>> choir.
>> Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now),
>> --Ediger
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks
>> 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to save the TSA from

Re: [Texascavers] Clarification, and Back to Caving

[Karen Perry]

I am so excited I can hardly contain myself. Tom Byrd and Carl Kunath
are coming to Carlsbad this weekend to join in the Endless Restoration
Project.  

The
McKittrick Hill caves have been closed now for several years with only
resto permits being issued. The projects have toiled along slowly but
with much progress being made. Things are starting to truly show the
cave recovering from decades of mud & dirt being trampled into
places that should have never been walked on. Carbide dumps are
disappearing, broken flash bulbs removed, damaged formations
repaired...

Well, check out some of these photos. hope to wet your appetite for 
more...

Karen
one of the McKittrick Project Leaders

---



So, let's get back to caves and caving.  I know there was a Colorado
Bend project this weekend, and a TCMA meeting.  Anyone want to give a
brief report on those events?  Anyone else go caving?  Please, someone,
anyone.



Logan



P.S.  Thomas, tell me more about using cellulose for ethanol
(OFFLINE)!  ;)





Fritz Holt wrote:

  
  
   Sorry, I must take an opposing view. I
consider myself an environmentalist but if there really is such a thing
as “clean”
coal technology I am for it. We have plenty of it. I also think that
generating
electricity from nuclear energy makes good sense. The best solution may
be
natural gas but our federal government needs to wake up to the fact
that to get
it we must drill for it as well as for oil as we will never be without
the need
for this commodity. It is crazy to be importing it from our enemies. No
one  loves
our Texas Hill Country more than I but I don’t believe that these
activities
will be harmful if sensibly regulated which does not mean banning them.
I
believe that cavers who owned a tract of land would accept a very
lucrative offer
to lease it for oil and gas exploration. That’s not greed, its good
sense. Let the naysayers come forth.  
  Fritz



From:  Thomas Sitch
[mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com]

  
  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
5:23 PM

  
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com

  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re:
Clean Water Action
  
 
  
   "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ',
and Georgetown 's]
Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"  
  
  
   "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning
Power
Plants"  
  
  
   I love political activists who are very specific on
shutting down
energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g.  
  
  
  
  
   "Tell the Austin City Council To Support
Clean Energy"  
  
  
  
  
   How about "donate to build power lines to the T. Boons
Pickins
wind farms" or "research fund for cellulosic ethanol."  
  
  
  
  
   Sorry, what was this about?  Clean water?  Yes, which goes
to
caves, and we don't have enough of it.  Down with nuclear energy!! 
  
  
  
   ~~T  
  
  
  
  
  

  
 
   From:   Logan
McNatt 

  To: George Veni


  Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com

  Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20
PM

  Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean
Water Action

   

I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still
a
viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin : 
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx

The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door
to door
once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.

  

Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local
issues, the
issues on their website include:

"The Coming Crisis:  Water Availability and Municipal Conservation
Efforts in Central Texas", 

"Tell the Austin City Council To Support
Clean Energy"

"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ', and Georgetown 's]
Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"

"Increase Funding for State Parks"

"Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"

"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

  

Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not
tax-deductible.  I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot
of
duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but
many of
the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue,
and
cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.

  

Logan 
 
   George Veni wrote:  
  
   Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and
San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to
lobby government and
agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent
water
degradation. I haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and
don’t know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it
simply got diverted to other projects in other areas.   
   George   
 
  
   From:  bgillegi...@gmail.com
[mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com]
  On Behalf Of Gill Edigar

  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
12:39 PM

  To: texascavers@texascavers.com

  Subject: [Texascavers] Change of
Subject--Clean Water 
  
   RE: Clean
Water Action  
  
   A few
months ago a fellow came by the hou

[Texascavers] UT Grotto meeting December 16, 2009

[Gary Franklin]

Underground Texas Grotto meeting December 16, 2009 

The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M. 
on the University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall 
http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html

Peter Sprouse will present the program of the evening, "Exploration of a new 
caving area at Muzquiz, Coahuila".  A recent trip to this newly found area 
yielded many major pits where the teams kept returning for more rope.  Come see 
some photography of this spectacular porous Karst region of Mexico where the 
rancher extended access as well as plenty of food for their Thanksgiving.

For information on UT Grotto www.utgrotto.org activates, please see the website.
All of our information is available through our link including officer contact 
info, trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and posting links to 
beginner trips or vertical rope training.  

Sometimes, cavers meet before the meeting about 6:30 at Sau Paulo 
www.saopaulos.net  for happy hour.  After every meeting, we adjourn to the 
Posse www.posseeast.com for beer and burgers.

The UT Grotto Program needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share 
about your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool.  
Contact Gary   v...@utgrotto.org


-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

Just thoughts rambling through my head, never sat down and wrote down the ideas.

No, went to A&M for a few years for comp sci and switched to an
aeronautical school to get my pilot's license.  Am back in computers
tho, LOL

:)

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
> Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
> simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
> have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
> have material prepared as well
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
>> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
>> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>>
>> The information should be free.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>>> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would
>>> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
>>> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there
>>> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
>>> him though(you)-i wont
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
 Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year
 or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
 that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.

 Charles

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
> Brooks  wrote:
>>
>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if
>> Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>
> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any
> caver
> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
> members
> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
> requirement
> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the
> cause
> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want
> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science,
> upcoming
> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit
> ME.
> I
> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER
> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers.
> They
> do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be
> better
> cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving
> community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And
> their
> participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for
> Texas
> caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide
> to
> cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
> better participant in Texas caving.
> I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA." I
> think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to
> all
> Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed
> group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
> helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which
> is
> promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
> finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
> selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally.
> It
> costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something
> selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
> earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make
> it
> free to any digital subscriber.  Otherwise, we're just preaching to the
> choir.
> Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now),
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks
> 
> wrote:
>>
>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if
>> Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>
>>
>> On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Welcome back, Karen!
>>
>> Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
>>
>>
>
>

 -

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

Free thinker! Did you go to a liberal arts school? I will lay out a
simple, organized way to bring this issue up at the next meeting. I
have thought it through but will not propose it myself. You probably
have material prepared as well

On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
> think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
> that it will bring in more members in the long run.
>
> The information should be free.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
>> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would
>> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
>> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there
>> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
>> him though(you)-i wont
>>
>> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>>> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year
>>> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
>>> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
 Brooks  wrote:
>
> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if
> Ediger
> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?

 Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
 within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any
 caver
 who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA
 members
 should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a
 requirement
 for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the
 cause
 of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want
 every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
 information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science,
 upcoming
 events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
 participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
 articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit
 ME.
 I
 am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER
 because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers.
 They
 do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be
 better
 cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving
 community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And
 their
 participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for
 Texas
 caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide
 to
 cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
 better participant in Texas caving.
 I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA." I
 think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to
 all
 Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed
 group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
 helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which
 is
 promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
 finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
 selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally.
 It
 costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something
 selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
 earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make
 it
 free to any digital subscriber.  Otherwise, we're just preaching to the
 choir.
 Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now),
 --Ediger


 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks
 
 wrote:
>
> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if
> Ediger
> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>
>
> On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
> wrote:
>
>
> Welcome back, Karen!
>
> Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
>
>


>>>
>>> -
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Nico Escamilla]

Amen Ediger!

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks 
>  wrote:
>
>  I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>
>
> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver
> who wants to sign up for a free subscription.

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

I'm not condoning of getting rid of the membership fees, and while I
think a few may quit paying if they can get the TC for free, I think
that it will bring in more members in the long run.

The information should be free.

Charles

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:07 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
> I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would
> support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
> give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there
> should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
> him though(you)-i wont
>
> On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year
>> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
>> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>>> Brooks  wrote:

 I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
 renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>>
>>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
>>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any
>>> caver
>>> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members
>>> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement
>>> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause
>>> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want
>>> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
>>> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science,
>>> upcoming
>>> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
>>> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
>>> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME.
>>> I
>>> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER
>>> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers.
>>> They
>>> do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better
>>> cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving
>>> community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And
>>> their
>>> participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas
>>> caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to
>>> cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
>>> better participant in Texas caving.
>>> I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA." I
>>> think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to
>>> all
>>> Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed
>>> group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
>>> helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is
>>> promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
>>> finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
>>> selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally.
>>> It
>>> costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something
>>> selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
>>> earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it
>>> free to any digital subscriber.  Otherwise, we're just preaching to the
>>> choir.
>>> Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now),
>>> --Ediger
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks 
>>> wrote:

 I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
 renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?


 On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
 wrote:


 Welcome back, Karen!

 Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!


>>>
>>>
>>
>> -
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

I didnt know you felt this way and thought as a TSA member, you would
support having a small income for the organization. I will offer to
give Gill my prize of a 2010 membership but in no way think that there
should be no membership fees. I am glad he has someone to market for
him though(you)-i wont

On 12/14/09, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year
> or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
> that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
>> Brooks  wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
>>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>
>> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
>> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any
>> caver
>> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members
>> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement
>> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause
>> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want
>> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
>> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science,
>> upcoming
>> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
>> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
>> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME.
>> I
>> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER
>> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers.
>> They
>> do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better
>> cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving
>> community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And
>> their
>> participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas
>> caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to
>> cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
>> better participant in Texas caving.
>> I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA." I
>> think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to
>> all
>> Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed
>> group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
>> helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is
>> promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
>> finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
>> selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally.
>> It
>> costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something
>> selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
>> earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it
>> free to any digital subscriber.  Otherwise, we're just preaching to the
>> choir.
>> Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now),
>> --Ediger
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
>>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Welcome back, Karen!
>>>
>>> Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year
or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.

Charles

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
> Brooks  wrote:
>>
>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>
> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver
> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members
> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement
> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause
> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want
> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming
> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I
> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER
> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They
> do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better
> cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving
> community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their
> participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas
> caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to
> cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
> better participant in Texas caving.
> I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA." I
> think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all
> Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed
> group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
> helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is
> promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
> finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
> selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It
> costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something
> selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
> earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it
> free to any digital subscriber.  Otherwise, we're just preaching to the
> choir.
> Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now),
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks 
> wrote:
>>
>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>
>>
>> On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Welcome back, Karen!
>>
>> Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
>>
>>
>
>

texascavers Digest 15 Dec 2009 02:26:11 -0000 Issue 916

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 15 Dec 2009 02:26:11 - Issue 916

Topics (messages 12971 through 12978):

Re: Clean Water Action
12971 by: Logan McNatt
12972 by: Thomas Sitch
12973 by: Fritz Holt

Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member
12974 by: John P. Brooks
12976 by: Gill Edigar

Clarification, and Back to Caving
12975 by: Logan McNatt

Re: TSA, Caver, and Caving
12977 by: Chris Vreeland

Re: Digital vs. Print 2
12978 by: Gill Edigar

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---




I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still
a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin: 
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx
The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door
to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.

Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local
issues, the issues on their website include:
"The Coming Crisis:  Water Availability and Municipal Conservation
Efforts in Central Texas", 
"Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"
"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and
City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"
"Increase Funding for State Parks"
"Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"
"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not
tax-deductible.  I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot
of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups,
but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic
area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.

Logan

George Veni wrote:

  
  
  Clean
Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since
at
least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies,
and
work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water
degradation. I
haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and don’t know if the
organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted
to
other projects in other areas. 
  George 
  
  
  
  From: bgillegi...@gmail.com
[mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar
  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water 
  
  RE: Clean Water Action 
  
  A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an
outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to
promote
awareness of  and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or
fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South
Austin and
other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted
to make
a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who
haven't the
time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes
along. I
gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a
personal data
card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty
good slug
of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with
nebulous
details. 
  
  
  Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they
fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation
districts
that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of
their
good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support
them, but
I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are
and what
they really do.  
  
--Ediger
  
  



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City 
Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy" 
"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy 
production but very vague on creating it, e.g.

"Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"

How about "donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms" or 
"research fund for cellulosic ethanol."

Sorry, what was this about?  Clean water?  Yes, which goes to caves, and we 
don't have enough of it.  Down with nuclear energy!!

~~T




From: Logan McNatt 
To: George Veni 
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action

I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a 
viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin:  
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx
The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door 
once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.

Although An

Re: [Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2

[Gill Edigar]

No. No idea. Affordable, though, I'm sure. The point is that anybody could
print out a fast and dirty B&W copy on their cheapass home (or office)
printer for scanning in the privacy of their own bedrooms and then have
Kinkos do up a slick and shiny copy for their sanctified library file--say
get all 4 issues done once a year and made up into a single volume. Huh?
Check out the latest bindings, maybe?
--Ediger

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:

> Thats a good point Gil, any idea on the costs for that?  I've never needed
> to.
>
> Thanks!
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
> > Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file
> onto
> > your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color
> laser
> > printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that
> > postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and
> physical
> > hassle. It's the best of both worlds.
> > --Ediger
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Logan McNatt 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The
> >> Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for
> all
> >> that prefer them.  I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed
> >> issues.
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] TSA, Caver, and Caving

[Chris Vreeland]

I just got my gorgeous hard copy of the Caver in the mail today, and  
have to say that as an old fart, I really like getting publications in  
the mail at seemingly random intervals, and sitting down in a chair to  
read them. Then, I enjoy putting them on my bookshelf.


One thing I do not enjoy is driving to Office Max to stock up on ink  
cartridges.


If it takes another $5.00 a year to keep them coming, I think I can  
skip a pack of cigarettes in order to make that happen.


BTW, Thanks Mark, for an excellent issue! As a former editor, I  
thought i knew all about the unsung heroics of editing, but your tale  
of woe tops them all. Please keep up the good work!



On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Linda Palit wrote:

I believe the problem with the bulk rate has been that we are not  
sending out enough copies to get the bulk rate.  The truth is, also,  
that print media is in decline.  I believe that it is probably time  
to revisit the two-tier membership option and gradually phase that in.


From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 7:39 AM
To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com; TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print


I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us,  
Logan, as I plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the  
foreseeable future.


(Sorry to tell y'all that!)


From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com]


I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of  
The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic  
copies for all that prefer them.  I would be willing to pay the  
extra cost of printed issues.

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Gill Edigar]

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks 
 wrote:

> I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>

Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver
who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members
should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement
for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause
of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want
every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming
events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I
am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER
because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They
do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better
cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving
community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their
participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas
caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to
cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
better participant in Texas caving.

I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA." I
think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all
Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed
group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is
promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It
costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something
selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it
free to any digital subscriber.  Otherwise, we're just preaching to the
choir.

Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now),
--Ediger


On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks wrote:

>  I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>
>
>
> On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
> wrote:
>
>
> Welcome back, Karen!
>
> Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
>
>
>
>

[Texascavers] Clarification, and Back to Caving

[Logan McNatt]

Fritz, Thomas, and All,

I should have made it clear that I was not advocating that cavers
should support  Clean Water Action or agree with all of its ideas.  I
was just trying to describe who they are and what they do, in response
to Gill's initial query and the follow-up responses.  I agree with some
of the points you made, and the last thing I want to do is start
a(nother) never-ending discussion on this list about issues that are so
controversial and unresolvable.

So, let's get back to caves and caving.  I know there was a Colorado
Bend project this weekend, and a TCMA meeting.  Anyone want to give a
brief report on those events?  Anyone else go caving?  Please, someone,
anyone.

Logan

P.S.  Thomas, tell me more about using cellulose for ethanol
(OFFLINE)!  ;)


Fritz Holt wrote:

  
  
   Sorry, I must take an opposing view. I
consider myself an environmentalist but if there really is such a thing
as “clean”
coal technology I am for it. We have plenty of it. I also think that
generating
electricity from nuclear energy makes good sense. The best solution may
be
natural gas but our federal government needs to wake up to the fact
that to get
it we must drill for it as well as for oil as we will never be without
the need
for this commodity. It is crazy to be importing it from our enemies. No
one  loves
our Texas Hill Country more than I but I don’t believe that these
activities
will be harmful if sensibly regulated which does not mean banning them.
I
believe that cavers who owned a tract of land would accept a very
lucrative offer
to lease it for oil and gas exploration. That’s not greed, its good
sense. Let the naysayers come forth.  
  Fritz


From:  Thomas Sitch
[mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com]

  
  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
5:23 PM
  
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re:
Clean Water Action
  
 
  
   "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ',
and Georgetown 's]
Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"  
  
  
   "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning
Power
Plants"  
  
  
   I love political activists who are very specific on
shutting down
energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g.  
  
  
  
  
   "Tell the Austin City Council To Support
Clean Energy"  
  
  
  
  
   How about "donate to build power lines to the T. Boons
Pickins
wind farms" or "research fund for cellulosic ethanol."  
  
  
  
  
   Sorry, what was this about?  Clean water?  Yes, which goes
to
caves, and we don't have enough of it.  Down with nuclear energy!! 
  
  
  
   ~~T  
  
  
  
  
  

  
 
   From:   Logan
McNatt 
  To: George Veni

  Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20
PM
  Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean
Water Action
   
I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still
a
viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin : 
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx
The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door
to door
once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.
  
Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local
issues, the
issues on their website include:
"The Coming Crisis:  Water Availability and Municipal Conservation
Efforts in Central Texas", 
"Tell the Austin City Council To Support
Clean Energy"
"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ', and Georgetown 's]
Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"
"Increase Funding for State Parks"
"Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"
"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"
  
Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not
tax-deductible.  I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot
of
duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but
many of
the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue,
and
cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.
  
Logan 
 
   George Veni wrote:  
  
   Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and
San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to
lobby government and
agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent
water
degradation. I haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and
don’t know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it
simply got diverted to other projects in other areas.   
   George   
 
  
   From:  bgillegi...@gmail.com
[mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com]
  On Behalf Of Gill Edigar
  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
12:39 PM
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: [Texascavers] Change of
Subject--Clean Water 
  
   RE: Clean
Water Action  
  
   A few
months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
'Clean
Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of  and
promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean
water
is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the
world 

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[John P. Brooks]

I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger
renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?


On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, "mark.al...@l-3com.com"  wrote:
 
> Welcome back, Karen!
>  
> Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
>  
>  

RE: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action

[Fritz Holt]

Sorry, I must take an opposing view. I consider myself an environmentalist but 
if there really is such a thing as "clean" coal technology I am for it. We have 
plenty of it. I also think that generating electricity from nuclear energy 
makes good sense. The best solution may be natural gas but our federal 
government needs to wake up to the fact that to get it we must drill for it as 
well as for oil as we will never be without the need for this commodity. It is 
crazy to be importing it from our enemies. No one  loves our Texas Hill Country 
more than I but I don't believe that these activities will be harmful if 
sensibly regulated which does not mean banning them. I believe that cavers who 
owned a tract of land would accept a very lucrative offer to lease it for oil 
and gas exploration. That's not greed, its good sense. Let the naysayers come 
forth.

Fritz


From: Thomas Sitch [mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 5:23 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action

"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City 
Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"
"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy 
production but very vague on creating it, e.g.

"Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"

How about "donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms" or 
"research fund for cellulosic ethanol."
Sorry, what was this about?  Clean water?  Yes, which goes to caves, and we 
don't have enough of it.  Down with nuclear energy!!

~~T


From: Logan McNatt 
To: George Veni 
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action

I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a 
viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin:  
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx
The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door 
once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.

Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the 
issues on their website include:
"The Coming Crisis:  Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in 
Central Texas",
"Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"
"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City 
Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"
"Increase Funding for State Parks"
"Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"
"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not 
tax-deductible.  I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of 
duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of 
the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and 
cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.

Logan

George Veni wrote:

Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since 
at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and 
work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I 
haven't seen them much in the past 10 years and don't know if the organization 
crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in 
other areas.

George



From: bgillegi...@gmail.com 
[mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

RE: Clean Water Action

A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 
'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of  and 
promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water 
is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it 
would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with 
good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every 
environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and 
signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got 
a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more 
information. A letter followed but with nebulous details.

Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, 
the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our 
cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, 
etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard 
of them before and want a better i

Re: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action

[Thomas Sitch]

"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City 
Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy" 
"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy 
production but very vague on creating it, e.g.

"Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"

How about "donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms" or 
"research fund for cellulosic ethanol."

Sorry, what was this about?  Clean water?  Yes, which goes to caves, and we 
don't have enough of it.  Down with nuclear energy!!

~~T




From: Logan McNatt 
To: George Veni 
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action

I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a 
viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin:  
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx
The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door 
once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.

Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the 
issues on their website include:
"The Coming Crisis:  Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in 
Central Texas", 
"Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"
"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City 
Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"
"Increase Funding for State Parks"
"Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"
"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not 
tax-deductible.  I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of 
duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of 
the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and 
cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.

Logan


George Veni wrote: 
Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since 
at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and 
work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I 
haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and don’t know if the organization 
crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in 
other areas. 
>George 


>From:bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill 
>Edigar
>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM
>To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water 
>RE: Clean Water Action 
>A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 
>'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of  and 
>promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water 
>is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it 
>would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks 
>with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with 
>every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks 
>and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago 
>I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked 
>for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. 
>Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, 
>the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our 
>cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, 
>etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard 
>of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do. 
> --Ediger 
>- Visit 
>our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
>texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: 
>texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

[Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action

[Logan McNatt]

I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still
a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin: 
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx
The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door
to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.

Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local
issues, the issues on their website include:
"The Coming Crisis:  Water Availability and Municipal Conservation
Efforts in Central Texas", 
"Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"
"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and
City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"
"Increase Funding for State Parks"
"Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"
"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not
tax-deductible.  I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot
of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups,
but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic
area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.

Logan

George Veni wrote:

  
  
  Clean
Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since
at
least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies,
and
work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water
degradation. I
haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and don’t know if the
organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted
to
other projects in other areas. 
  George 
  
  
  
  From: bgillegi...@gmail.com
[mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar
  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water 
  
  RE: Clean Water Action 
  
  A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an
outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to
promote
awareness of  and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or
fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South
Austin and
other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted
to make
a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who
haven't the
time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes
along. I
gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a
personal data
card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty
good slug
of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with
nebulous
details. 
  
  
  Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they
fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation
districts
that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of
their
good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support
them, but
I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are
and what
they really do.  
  
--Ediger
  
  




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texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 22:35:24 -0000 Issue 915

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 22:35:24 - Issue 915

Topics (messages 12959 through 12970):

Re: TSA this and that
12959 by: kego3.sbcglobal.net
12963 by: Karen Perry
12966 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
12967 by: Fritz Holt
12969 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com

Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member
12960 by: Charles Goldsmith

Re: Digital vs. Print 2
12961 by: Charles Goldsmith

Change of Subject--Clean Water
12962 by: Gill Edigar
12965 by: George Veni
12968 by: Geary Schindel
12970 by: Stefan Creaser

Re: Electronic media
12964 by: Linda Palit

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


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--
--- Begin Message ---
"But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a 
paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon"

Well put and amen!
--Original Message--
From: Mixon Bill
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM

Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are  
all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you  
insist on running your own server, you could still use some other  
place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I  
wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site,  
password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has  
something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to  
someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway.

Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how  
one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a  
discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you  
pay for one.--Mixon

May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com



Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, 
were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at 
the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 
12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to 
make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know 
what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we 
all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment)

If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund 
raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
Karen

--- On Mon, 12/14/09, ke...@sbcglobal.net  wrote:

From: ke...@sbcglobal.net 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
To: "Mixon Bill" , "Cavers Texas" 

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 1:19 PM

"But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a 
paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon"

Well put and amen!
--Original Message--
From: Mixon Bill
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM

Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are  
all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you  
insist on running your own server, you could still use some other  
place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I  
wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site,  
password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has  
something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to  
someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway.

Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how  
one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a  
discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you  
pay for one.--Mixon

May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


-
Visit our website: http://te

RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

[Stefan Creaser]

This lot sound like the TSA/TCMA/TCC/TCR/etc. ;-)

 

"United against the common enemy" :-)

 

Cheers,

Stefan

 

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org] 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 4:23 PM
To: Gill Edigar; texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Annalisa Peace
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

 

I sent Annalisa Peace a email about Clean Water Action and this is here
response.

 

Geary

 

 

 

Dear Geary,

 

Yes, they are a national organization with an office in Austin.  They
hire canvassers to solicit donations in San Antonio, but they do not get
involved in any local issues.  CWA used to be a member group of AGUA
(when AGUA was structured that way) but have not joined GEAA.  They do
do good work on the national level.  So, I guess giving would be based
on whether the donor is interested in local or national action.

 

If someone is a caver, they might want to donate to GEAA or SOS on the
water front, as we are actively involved in issues of mutual interest.

 

Hope that answers your question.

 

Annalisa Peace

Executive Director

Greater Edwards Aquifer Alliance

210-320-6294

www.aquiferalliance.org   

 

 

 

From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
Gill Edigar
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:39 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

 

RE: Clean Water Action

 

A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit
called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote
awareness of  and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or
fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South
Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if
one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental
intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental
interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed
their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got
a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked
for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details.

 

Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that
some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their
good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them,
but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they
are and what they really do. 

 

--Ediger


-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium.  Thank you.

RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that

[speleosteele]

As a national director of a large, 100 year old (as of Feb. 8, 2010) non-profit 
corporation, I can tell you that you budget
to end the year in the black, which means bringing in more money than you 
spend. We raise dues every few years, and that is
because costs increase. When I started my career 30 years ago membership dues 
were $2.00 per year. Now they're $12. We don't call
it profit at the end of the year, we call it surplus, which is then shown in 
the accounting as cash reserves.

Bill Steele


 Fritz Holt  wrote: 
> I have been admonished in the past for daring to suggest a TSA dues increase 
> and was reminded that we are a not for profit organization. I'm not sure that 
> I know the definition but it would seem that there would have to be a profit 
> or sizable donations in order to purchase real estate for whatever cause. 
> But, I'm not looking for a lesson in the law. With the questions concerning a 
> possible reduction in TSA dues you would think that many cavers didn't know 
> where the money was coming from for their next caving light. Since it is 
> impossible to calculate to the dollar what expenses will be, there is nothing 
> wrong with having a small surplus at the end of the year. At $20.00, any 
> surplus would be small.
> 
> Fritz
> 
> 
> From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:34 PM
> To: Karen Perry; texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
> 
> 
> This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue:
> 
> 
> We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in 
> order to facilitate costs.
> 
> 
> This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how 
> much material I receive.
> 
> 
> The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages.
> 
> The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages.
> 
> The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical).
> 
> This past issue was 28 pages.
> 
> 
> If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it 
> would be easier to calculate.
> 
> 
> What size fits y'all?
> 
> Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12.
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
> Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, 
> were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look 
> at the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, 
> multiple by 12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a 
> workable formula to make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, 
> for one, like to know what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's 
> do the math before we all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the 
> USA comment)
> 
> If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund 
> raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
> Karen
> 
> 


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RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

[Geary Schindel]

I sent Annalisa Peace a email about Clean Water Action and this is here 
response.

Geary



Dear Geary,

Yes, they are a national organization with an office in Austin.  They hire 
canvassers to solicit donations in San Antonio, but they do not get involved in 
any local issues.  CWA used to be a member group of AGUA (when AGUA was 
structured that way) but have not joined GEAA.  They do do good work on the 
national level.  So, I guess giving would be based on whether the donor is 
interested in local or national action.

If someone is a caver, they might want to donate to GEAA or SOS on the water 
front, as we are actively involved in issues of mutual interest.

Hope that answers your question.

Annalisa Peace
Executive Director
Greater Edwards Aquifer Alliance
210-320-6294
www.aquiferalliance.org



From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill 
Edigar
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:39 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

RE: Clean Water Action

A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 
'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of  and 
promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water 
is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it 
would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with 
good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every 
environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and 
signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got 
a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more 
information. A letter followed but with nebulous details.

Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, 
the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our 
cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, 
etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard 
of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do.

--Ediger

RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that

[Fritz Holt]

I have been admonished in the past for daring to suggest a TSA dues increase 
and was reminded that we are a not for profit organization. I'm not sure that I 
know the definition but it would seem that there would have to be a profit or 
sizable donations in order to purchase real estate for whatever cause. But, I'm 
not looking for a lesson in the law. With the questions concerning a possible 
reduction in TSA dues you would think that many cavers didn't know where the 
money was coming from for their next caving light. Since it is impossible to 
calculate to the dollar what expenses will be, there is nothing wrong with 
having a small surplus at the end of the year. At $20.00, any surplus would be 
small.

Fritz


From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:34 PM
To: Karen Perry; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that


This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue:


We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in 
order to facilitate costs.


This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how 
much material I receive.


The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages.

The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages.

The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical).

This past issue was 28 pages.


If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it 
would be easier to calculate.


What size fits y'all?

Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12.


Mark





From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, 
were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at 
the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 
12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to 
make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know 
what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we 
all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment)

If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund 
raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
Karen

Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

Thank you, Ms. Vice Chair

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 2:57 PM, ellie :)  wrote:
> Keep up the good work, Beer Boy.
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Charles Goldsmith 
> wrote:
>>
>> Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run
>> both (and the same) that you mention here.
>>
>> When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list
>> and website.  I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left
>> it the same as he had it.  Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not
>> being the official list for TSA or any other group.
>>
>> I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way,
>> while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are
>> many here who aren't.
>>
>> If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be
>> happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary.
>> TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members.
>>
>> Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the "official" TSA voice?
>> No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think.  I'm a proud (and
>> vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations.
>>
>> Charles
>> CaveTex list administrator flunky
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM,   wrote:
>> > Hey Mark -
>> >
>> > *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
>> > affiliated with TSA.
>>
>> -
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>
>

Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[ellie :)]

Keep up the good work, Beer Boy.

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:

> Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run
> both (and the same) that you mention here.
>
> When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list
> and website.  I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left
> it the same as he had it.  Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not
> being the official list for TSA or any other group.
>
> I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way,
> while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are
> many here who aren't.
>
> If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be
> happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary.
> TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members.
>
> Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the "official" TSA voice?
> No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think.  I'm a proud (and
> vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations.
>
> Charles
> CaveTex list administrator flunky
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM,   wrote:
> > Hey Mark -
> >
> > *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
> > affiliated with TSA.
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that

[Mark . Alman]

 
This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue:
 
 
We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in 
order to facilitate costs.
 
 
This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how 
much material I receive.
 
 
The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages.
 
The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages.
 
The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical).
 
This past issue was 28 pages.
 
 
If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it 
would be easier to calculate.
 
 
What size fits y'all?
 
Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12.
 
 
Mark
 
 
 



From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that


Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, 
were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at 
the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 
12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to 
make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know 
what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we 
all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment)

If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund 
raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
Karen   

RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

[George Veni]

Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas
since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and
agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water
degradation. I haven't seen them much in the past 10 years and don't know if
the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted
to other projects in other areas.

 

George

 

From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill
Edigar
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

 

RE: Clean Water Action

 

A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of
and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean
water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the
world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks
from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to
keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave
them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data
card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good
slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with
nebulous details.

 

Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some
of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good
work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've
never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what
they really do. 

 

--Ediger

RE: [Texascavers] Re: Electronic media

[Linda Palit]

Talk to an archivist.  All the digital nightmares are multiplied with the
evolving technology, and the potential of losing information because it is
not in a platform that is still used.  

Perhaps this really is the third revolution, agricultural revolution,
industrial revolution and "communications revolution" or whatever historical
moniker this era ends up with, if it is indeed that significant.

-Original Message-
From: mmin...@caver.net [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:12 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Electronic media

   Geary brings up interesting points about libraries going to  
digital journal subscriptions.  I have seen this as a potential  
problem ever since it first occurred since it directly affected my  
profession (chemist).  There are a few journals that allow an  
institution to keep access to their past subscribed volumes even if  
they stop subscribing, but most do not and thus as Geary said, the  
library ends up with no collection if they ever stop.  That seems  
patently unfair and I'm surprised libraries have agreed to those terms.

   Another problem is that when the library suffers a power  
failure or worse, when the journal's server goes down, no one has  
access to their material.  At least with a paper copy you could read  
it with a flashlight during a power failure.  I often made printed  
copies of articles because I would need to take the paper to the lab  
in order to follow a procedure, but of course I would do that with  
print journals as well.

Mark Minton

Quoting Geary Schindel :

> There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media   
> that folks are still wrestling with.
>
> This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but   
> many professional journals are going on line and are only available   
> through a subscription service.  If a college or university   
> subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their  
>  collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to   
> view it.  However, now that some journals are only available on line  
>  through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the   
> service.  Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year  
>  to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose  
> which  ones you want - you have to buy their package.  And if you  
> don't  renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year  
> you  didn't buy.
>
> In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be  
>  honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested.  I  
> do  know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I  
> wrote  it on a TRS 80 using a word star program.  The only surviving  
> copies  are paper (not that it was that important a work).  However  
> books  have survived for hundreds of years (assuming they are  
> printed on  good paper) and minus a few book burnings.
>
> The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its   
> head as we change media type.  Search engines are very powerful and   
> have greatly added in doing research.  The flip side is that it   
> could, in theory, disappear overnight.
>
> FYI,
>
> Geary


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Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that

[Karen Perry]

Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past, 
were intended to cover publication/postage cost...Maybe we need to look at 
the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by 
12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to 
make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know 
what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we 
all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment)

If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund 
raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
Karen

--- On Mon, 12/14/09, ke...@sbcglobal.net  wrote:

From: ke...@sbcglobal.net 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
To: "Mixon Bill" , "Cavers Texas" 

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 1:19 PM

"But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a 
paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon"

Well put and amen!
--Original Message--
From: Mixon Bill
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM

Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are  
all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you  
insist on running your own server, you could still use some other  
place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I  
wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site,  
password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has  
something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to  
someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway.

Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how  
one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a  
discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you  
pay for one.--Mixon

May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


-
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


  

[Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water

[Gill Edigar]

RE: Clean Water Action

A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of
 and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean
water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the
world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks
from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to
keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave
them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data
card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good
slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with
nebulous details.

Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some
of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good
work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've
never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what
they really do.

--Ediger

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

That's interesting Andy, care to enlighten me further in how this
affects those agencies, etc?

Charles

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Andy Grubbs  wrote:
> there are a lot of agency and consultign folks who's jobs involve caves insome
> way and most of them monitor what goes on via cavetex  something a lot of
> caves are not mindful of
>
> Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>
>> Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run
>> both (and the same) that you mention here.
>>
>> When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list
>> and website.  I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left
>> it the same as he had it.  Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not
>> being the official list for TSA or any other group.
>>
>> I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way,
>> while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are
>> many here who aren't.
>>
>> If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be
>> happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary.
>> TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members.
>>
>> Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the "official" TSA voice?
>> No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think.  I'm a proud (and
>> vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations.
>>
>> Charles
>> CaveTex list administrator flunky
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM,   wrote:
>> > Hey Mark -
>> >
>> > *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
>> > affiliated with TSA.
>>
>> -
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Andy Grubbs]

there are a lot of agency and consultign folks who's jobs involve caves insome
way and most of them monitor what goes on via cavetex  something a lot of
caves are not mindful of

Charles Goldsmith wrote:

> Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run
> both (and the same) that you mention here.
>
> When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list
> and website.  I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left
> it the same as he had it.  Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not
> being the official list for TSA or any other group.
>
> I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way,
> while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are
> many here who aren't.
>
> If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be
> happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary.
> TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members.
>
> Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the "official" TSA voice?
> No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think.  I'm a proud (and
> vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations.
>
> Charles
> CaveTex list administrator flunky
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM,   wrote:
> > Hey Mark -
> >
> > *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
> > affiliated with TSA.
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

Re: [Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2

[Charles Goldsmith]

Thats a good point Gil, any idea on the costs for that?  I've never needed to.

Thanks!
Charles

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
> Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto
> your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser
> printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that
> postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical
> hassle. It's the best of both worlds.
> --Ediger
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Logan McNatt  wrote:
>>
>> I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The
>> Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all
>> that prefer them.  I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed
>> issues.

Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Joe Ranzau]

I was specifically referencing Mr. White who ran the list when I started.
The TSA offered assistance once or twice and was politely declined.  Bill
Bentley must have just kept the same wording much like you did.

Joe

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:

> Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run
> both (and the same) that you mention here.
>
> When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list
> and website.  I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left
> it the same as he had it.  Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not
> being the official list for TSA or any other group.
>
> I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way,
> while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are
> many here who aren't.
>
> If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be
> happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary.
> TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members.
>
> Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the "official" TSA voice?
> No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think.  I'm a proud (and
> vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations.
>
> Charles
> CaveTex list administrator flunky
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM,   wrote:
> > Hey Mark -
> >
> > *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
> > affiliated with TSA.
>

Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG

[Charles Goldsmith]

Thank that little birdy for the tidbit :)

Charles

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:46 AM,   wrote:
> No problem, Charles.
>
> (I didn't say this),
>
> but, the Winter meeting may be a good time to bring this up, as most of the
> chronologically challenged cavers don't make it out to this meeting.
>
>
> (Once again, I didn't say this).
>
>
> 8^)>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> 
> From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
> Sent: Fri 12/11/2009 3:45 PM
> To: Alman, Mark @ IRP
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA
> and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
>
> I told you that I was going to bring this up again back after the
> Spring TSA meeting.
>
> Many people feel the same way, they just are afraid to speak up, for
> fear of the wrath of a few of the older members.
>
> I'll continue to speak my mind :)
>
> Charles
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:31 PM,   wrote:
>>
>> Let's not go down that road again, Charles.
>>
>> The TC is coming being issued within our budget and we still have funds
>> left over for additional activities.
>>
>> My point in my rant was to liven up CaveTex (mission accomplished) and
>> to encourage more to go digital.
>>
>> I'm already seeing results of this, as well.
>>
>> Those that want a hard copy aren't going to break the bank, but, please
>> folks, at least think about going digital.
>>
>>
>> While I never keep a copy of the newsletter for myself, preferring and
>> having them in digital format, there is a unique thrill and source of
>> pride when they do arrive from the printer and I open the box for the
>> first time and look at the finished product and say to myself, "Damn,
>> that issue looks good!".
>>
>> Done patting myself on the back!
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
>> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 2:51 PM
>> To: Pete Lindsley
>> Cc: TexasCavers; Stefan Creaser
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the
>> TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
>>
>> You know, we can easily put this to a vote at the next meeting :)
>>
>> Charles
>>
>

Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Charles Goldsmith]

Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run
both (and the same) that you mention here.

When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list
and website.  I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left
it the same as he had it.  Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not
being the official list for TSA or any other group.

I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way,
while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are
many here who aren't.

If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be
happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary.
TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members.

Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the "official" TSA voice?
No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think.  I'm a proud (and
vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations.

Charles
CaveTex list administrator flunky


On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM,   wrote:
> Hey Mark -
>
> *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
> affiliated with TSA.

Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that

[kego3]

"But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a 
paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon"

Well put and amen!
--Original Message--
From: Mixon Bill
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM

Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are  
all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you  
insist on running your own server, you could still use some other  
place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I  
wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site,  
password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has  
something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to  
someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway.

Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how  
one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a  
discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you  
pay for one.--Mixon

May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Mark . Alman]

 
Welcome back, Karen!
 
Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
 
 
There's no more turmoil than normal going on.
 
 
I just had to throw a rock at the hornets nest last week with my tales of woe, 
as it was too quiet and I was feeling the creative juices flowing, thanks in 
part to having completed reading Kinky Friedman's Guide To Texas Etiquette and 
currently reading another of his books, Spanking Watson.
 
 
Plus, we needed to publicize the TSA Winter meeting next month (Sunday, January 
10th at 9 AM at the Conference Center at CBSP).
 
So you all have played into my diabolical plan!
 
The hard copy of the TC won't be going away, as there's too much interest in 
keeping it and several of our college subscribers want it that way.
 
 
Two-tiered or not two-tiered, I see that as being the question. 
 
 
Come to CBSP in January to see how that pans out.
 
We need and appreciate every caver, even the ones of varying and differing 
opinions!
 
 
Later,
 
Mark
 
 
 
 
 
 



From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 12:47 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member


Well said. I am in total agreement!! For many years now I have refused 
to rejoin TSA due to several issues.I moved to NM in April this year and wanted 
to keep in touch with Texas caving so I recently re-upped my membership. What I 
have  found is once again differences of opinion causing conflict within the 
organization. It almost seems as though TSA is cursed with some kind of 
continual turmol.

TSA should and NEEDS to keep hard copies of the Caver for many excellent reason 
that have been better stated by folks like Mark & Jim. So I say dittoI want 
a hard copy.
Karen   

texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 19:14:44 -0000 Issue 914

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 19:14:44 - Issue 914

Topics (messages 12948 through 12958):

Electronic media
12948 by: Geary Schindel
12950 by: mminton.caver.net

Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member
12949 by: Fritz Holt
12951 by: Fritz Holt
12953 by: Karen Perry
12958 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Re: Electronic in the Sky-"CAVER JIM"
12952 by: Fritz Holt

Re: Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only
12954 by: John Greer

TSA this and that
12955 by: Mixon Bill

Re: 15th ICS - proceedings corrections
12956 by: Mixon Bill

Re: [NMCAVER] World's most powerful flaslight
12957 by: Kip Baumann

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media that folks 
are still wrestling with.

This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but many 
professional journals are going on line and are only available through a 
subscription service.  If a college or university subscribed to a journal in 
print form, it would become part of their collection and available as a hard 
copy to anyone that wanted to view it.  However, now that some journals are 
only available on line through a subscription, they are only available if you 
pay for the service.  Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each 
year to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose which ones 
you want - you have to buy their package.  And if you don't renew, you lose 
access to all the journals, not just the year you didn't buy.

In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be honest, 
this technology is fairly new and relatively untested.  I do know that I can't 
read the disc containing my Thesis because I wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word 
star program.  The only surviving copies are paper (not that it was that 
important a work).  However books have survived for hundreds of years (assuming 
they are printed on good paper) and minus a few book burnings.

The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its head as we 
change media type.  Search engines are very powerful and have greatly added in 
doing research.  The flip side is that it could, in theory, disappear overnight.

FYI,

Geary

.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
  Geary brings up interesting points about libraries going to  
digital journal subscriptions.  I have seen this as a potential  
problem ever since it first occurred since it directly affected my  
profession (chemist).  There are a few journals that allow an  
institution to keep access to their past subscribed volumes even if  
they stop subscribing, but most do not and thus as Geary said, the  
library ends up with no collection if they ever stop.  That seems  
patently unfair and I'm surprised libraries have agreed to those terms.


  Another problem is that when the library suffers a power  
failure or worse, when the journal's server goes down, no one has  
access to their material.  At least with a paper copy you could read  
it with a flashlight during a power failure.  I often made printed  
copies of articles because I would need to take the paper to the lab  
in order to follow a procedure, but of course I would do that with  
print journals as well.


Mark Minton

Quoting Geary Schindel :

There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media   
that folks are still wrestling with.


This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but   
many professional journals are going on line and are only available   
through a subscription service.  If a college or university   
subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their  
 collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to   
view it.  However, now that some journals are only available on line  
 through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the   
service.  Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year  
 to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose  
which  ones you want - you have to buy their package.  And if you  
don't  renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year  
you  didn't buy.


In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be  
 honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested.  I  
do  know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I  
wrote  it on a TRS 80 using a word star program.  The only surviving  
copies  are paper (not that it was that important a work).  However  
books  have survived for hundreds of years (assuming they are  
printed on  good paper) and minus a few book burnings.


The world of research, and library science, is being

Re: CONFIRM subscribe to texascavers@texascavers.com

[Charles Goldsmith]

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:59 AM,   wrote:
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[Texascavers] Re: [NMCAVER] World's most powerful flaslight

[Kip Baumann]

Hi Lee,

Thanks for the link, but that's old news because you already sent the same info 
nearly 2 years ago. 

I prefer this LED light which should last a bit longer:
http://elektrolumen s.com/FireSword/ FireSword- IV.html

-Kip

From: Lee H. Skinner 
To: Cave Diggers 
Sent: Mon, January 28, 2008 2:37:18 PM
Subject: [CaveDiggers] World's brightest and most powerful flashlight


See articles about The Torch at:

http://www.i4u. com/article14324 .html

and

http://www.engadget .com/2008/ 01/28/the- torch-why- illuminate- when-you- 
can-incinerate/






From: Lee H. Skinner 
To: Cave Diggers ; texascavers list 
; nmcaver list ; Internal 
Communications of the Sandia Grotto 
Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 7:57:20 AM
Subject: [NMCAVER] World's most powerful flaslight

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/cd85/?cpg=120H

___
NMCAVER mailing list
nmca...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net



  

[Texascavers] Fwd: 15th ICS - proceedings corrections

[Mixon Bill]

Forwarded by Mixon:

Begin forwarded message:

From: ICS 2009 eList 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: December 13, 2009 8:57:15 PM CST
To: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
Subject: 15th ICS - proceedings corrections

Dear Friends,

Last month I wrote that the proceedings of the 15th International  
Congress of Speleology (ICS) were posted as three PDFs on the Karst  
Information Portal (KIP) at http://www.lib.usf.edu/karst-test/SPT--BrowseResources.php?ParentId=367


We have received some corrections to the proceedings and they are now  
listed in some Errata pages near the front of the three volumes. We  
apologize for any errors we missed or accidentally caused. Remember,  
the files for each of the three volumes are large: 86, 154, and 156 Mb.


Also as a reminder, you can buy printed copies of the ICS proceedings,  
guidebook, and other publications from the NSS Bookstore at http://nssbookstore.org/index.php?mode=store&submode=showitem&itemnumber=04-0106-2378 
 at a 20% discount until 31 December 2009.


George

George Veni, Ph.D.
Chairman, 15th International Congress of Speleology
Vice President of Administration, International Union of Speleology
Executive Director, U.S. National Cave and Karst Research Institute


You have received this message because you are subscribed to the 2009  
ICS eList. To unsubscribe, please visit:

http://ics2009mail.nfshost.com/pommo/user/



May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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[Texascavers] TSA this and that

[Mixon Bill]

Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are  
all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you  
insist on running your own server, you could still use some other  
place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I  
wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site,  
password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has  
something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to  
someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway.


Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how  
one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a  
discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you  
pay for one.--Mixon


May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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Re: [Texascavers] Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only

[John Greer]

(reply copy to cavers, in case anyone else is interested, such as for recon 
work).

Linda,

The Bosch is good for short stuff, up to 160' or so.

The Disto is interesting and accurate. I still have mine and don't use it 
because of its size -- I'm certainly willing to sell it for really cheap 
(case, attachments, and all), if anyone's interested. It's just too big, 
heavy, difficult to use, and of course is (was) really expensive. For long 
boreholes it can't be beat, as long as you have plenty of porters carrying 
equipment. Otherwise, take shorter readings.

We previously used a Bushnell Yardage Pro 400 (20-400 yds) and liked it, but 
alas, it's hiding somewhere in the field trying to become fertilizer or a 
historic artifact. We replaced that with the Bushnell Yardage Pro 1000 
(20-1000 yds) and like it very much. Accuracy is about +/- 18". It's now our 
long-distance backup.

So, we now use a Bushnell Yardage Pro Scout, a much smaller, uni-ocular (if 
that's a word, monocular?) unit that practically fits in your pocket (not a 
T-shirt), with a range of 10-700 yds. I see now that Amazon has lots of 
different Yardage Pro's, mostly around $240 (a fraction of a Disto), but you 
can check the Bushnell site for details.

The Bushnell Scout is essentially all I use now, even for rough interior 
mapping of archeological sites (+/- 18" is okay for rough mapping of 40 
acres worth of tipi rings). For caving, these things would be used for 
reconnaissance, not detailed cave mapping (which is why God invented the 
Bosch unit).

John




- Original Message - 
From: Linda Palit
To: 'John Greer'
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only


What about longer range ? or what do you mean by short range.

I ordered one, and no gripes with the great price.  I just wanted the 
benefit of your testing.

I’ve used a disto for long distances in big straight caves with great 
results, and just comparing.



Thanks.

Linda



From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 5:45 PM
To: 'texascavers list'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only



For those who don't have info on the Bosch DLR165K -- BoschTools.com -- see 
below (if it comes through).

We've tried several but still like these best for short range.

Looking around the web, it appears that Amazon (Prime=no shipping charge) is 
a great price = 64.99.

** Look at WarehouseDeals.com (Amazon) -- 60.99 + free shipping. Listed as 
"used" because of minor box damage. New unit. (good description too).





John

RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Karen Perry]

Well said. I am in total agreement!! For many years now I have refused 
to rejoin TSA due to several issues.I moved to NM in April this year and wanted 
to keep in touch with Texas caving so I recently re-upped my membership. What I 
have  found is once again differences of opinion causing conflict within the 
organization. It almost seems as though TSA is cursed with some kind of 
continual turmol.

TSA should and NEEDS to keep hard copies of the Caver for many excellent reason 
that have been better stated by folks like Mark & Jim. So I say dittoI want 
a hard copy.
Karen

--Joe, 

   

I enjoyed reading this post about the
various projects of the state’s caving groups, 









From: jran...@gmail.com
[mailto:jran...@gmail.com] 

Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
10:31 AM

To: texascavers@texascavers.com

Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers]
Please Become a Digital Online Member 



   

Hey Mark - 



In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also been
the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple grotto
officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's hard work
and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what everyone does and
have done much more shocking things than a one word email. I was also sitting
right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options for things to do at Spring
Convention when I responded to her email.



The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what unique
things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is the same
issue I struggled with when I was an officer. 



*TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big
winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it were
the only one I bet it would grow. 

*TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside
from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR is
explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out financially
on more than one occasion.

*The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the 94
convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA because
it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle.

*It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our grotto
put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the tractor
working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique.

*TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA,
probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the TSS?
The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The
 Austin group is working a huge cave ranch
near spring branch. etc.

*TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
affiliated with TSA.

*The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to 
contributed.



I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine with
a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a bad thing
and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents.



Joe 







On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

> 

> 

> Some of the other items the 

> TSA has supported:

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

> * A sizeable donation to the NSS for their 

> White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort.

> 

>  

> 

> * Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot 

> of survey equipment used around the state for various projects.

> 

>  

> 

> * A huge donation to the TCMA towards the 

> payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase.

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

> Plus, many other smaller projects that are 

> listed in the TSA Meeting minutes.

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

> (Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you 

> would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present
when we 

> conducted the votes on all of the above items).  8^(>

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

>  

> 

> Mark

> 

>  

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> From: Lyndon Tiu 

> [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]

> Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM

> To: 

> texascavers@texascavers.com

> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a 

> Digital Online Member

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> ellie :) wrote:

>  > The TSA membership fees cover much 

> more than the cost of The Caver

> 

> Joe Ranzau wrote:

> > 

> Like?

> >

> 

> Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the 

> ICS, the TSA

> paid for their registration.

> 

> --

> Lyndon 

> Tiu

> 

> -

> Visit 

> our website: http://texascavers.com

> To 

> unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com

> For additional 

> commands, e-mail: 

> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 



 




  

RE: [Texascavers] Electronic in the Sky-"CAVER JIM"

[Fritz Holt]

Don't remind me, but it is a nice poem.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: Preston Forsythe [mailto:pns_...@bellsouth.net] 
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:16 AM
To: Cavers Texas; ellie :); Lyndon Tiu
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Electronic in the Sky-"CAVER JIM"

> Once all existing members die, the Texas Caver will become all electronic. 
> Great plan Ellie, you're a genius!
>
> -- 
> Lyndon Tiu
-


Here is another adaptation of an old KY-Illinois coal miner poem put to 
caving. With apologies to Vachel who wrote, "Miner Jim," and Bobby who 
published the poem.


Caver Jim


1970:

   Caver Jim, you know him,
  Tall and straight, body strong;
   Before the dawn, he'll be gone,
  To walk four miles, cave all day long.

1980:

   Caver Jim, you know him,
  Day's caving now takes its toll;
   Step much slower, head hangs lower,
  After a day of caving.

1990:

   Caver Jim, you know him,
  It's time he faced the truth:
   What he can't do, a young man can;
  Those days have claimed his youth.

2000:

   Caver Jim, you know him,
  'Fore they took him away;
   Caver Jim, you knew him;
  They buried him today.

---

Happy Caving Holidays,

Preston in Outer Browder, KY
























> 


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RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Fritz Holt]

Old cavers never die, they just fade away (but most can still read with a 
magnifying glass).

Geezer

-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:44 AM
To: ellie :); Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

ellie :) wrote:
> ... and Lyndon
> can offer memberships when he registers people. People can put their
> email on the registration and opt to make next edition be their first
> digital one.

Yes and I promise not to tell new clueless members they have the option 
of getting a hard copy. That way, all new members get electronic copies. 
Once all existing members die, the Texas Caver will become all 
electronic. Great plan Ellie, you're a genius!

-- 
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] Re: Electronic media

[mminton]

  Geary brings up interesting points about libraries going to  
digital journal subscriptions.  I have seen this as a potential  
problem ever since it first occurred since it directly affected my  
profession (chemist).  There are a few journals that allow an  
institution to keep access to their past subscribed volumes even if  
they stop subscribing, but most do not and thus as Geary said, the  
library ends up with no collection if they ever stop.  That seems  
patently unfair and I'm surprised libraries have agreed to those terms.


  Another problem is that when the library suffers a power  
failure or worse, when the journal's server goes down, no one has  
access to their material.  At least with a paper copy you could read  
it with a flashlight during a power failure.  I often made printed  
copies of articles because I would need to take the paper to the lab  
in order to follow a procedure, but of course I would do that with  
print journals as well.


Mark Minton

Quoting Geary Schindel :

There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media   
that folks are still wrestling with.


This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but   
many professional journals are going on line and are only available   
through a subscription service.  If a college or university   
subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their  
 collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to   
view it.  However, now that some journals are only available on line  
 through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the   
service.  Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year  
 to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose  
which  ones you want - you have to buy their package.  And if you  
don't  renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year  
you  didn't buy.


In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be  
 honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested.  I  
do  know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I  
wrote  it on a TRS 80 using a word star program.  The only surviving  
copies  are paper (not that it was that important a work).  However  
books  have survived for hundreds of years (assuming they are  
printed on  good paper) and minus a few book burnings.


The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its   
head as we change media type.  Search engines are very powerful and   
have greatly added in doing research.  The flip side is that it   
could, in theory, disappear overnight.


FYI,

Geary



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RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Fritz Holt]

Joe,

I enjoyed reading this post about the various projects of the state's caving 
groups, past and present. As I have done before on this subject, I will take 
this opportunity to inject my two cents. The enjoyment I get from receiving 
(electronically) and reading The Caver is itself worth the dues paid. But, this 
is greatly overshadowed by the personal enjoyment of the camaraderie at events 
and gatherings with cavers who for the most part are TSA members. The good 
times had at these events would not be possible without the planning and hard 
work of the officers of TSA, TCMA and the volunteers of these groups. VIVA TSA!

Fritz

From: jran...@gmail.com [mailto:jran...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 10:31 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

Hey Mark -

In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also been 
the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple grotto 
officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's hard work 
and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what everyone does and 
have done much more shocking things than a one word email. I was also sitting 
right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options for things to do at Spring 
Convention when I responded to her email.

The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what unique 
things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is the same 
issue I struggled with when I was an officer.

*TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big 
winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it were 
the only one I bet it would grow.
*TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside 
from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR is 
explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out financially 
on more than one occasion.
*The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the 94 
convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA because 
it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle.
*It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our grotto 
put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the tractor 
working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique.
*TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA, 
probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the TSS? 
The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The Austin group is working a 
huge cave ranch near spring branch. etc.
*TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being 
affiliated with TSA.
*The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to 
contributed.

I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine with 
a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a bad thing 
and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents.

Joe



On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>
>
> Some of the other items the
> TSA has supported:
>
>
>
>
>
> * A sizeable donation to the NSS for their
> White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort.
>
>
>
> * Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot
> of survey equipment used around the state for various projects.
>
>
>
> * A huge donation to the TCMA towards the
> payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase.
>
>
>
>
>
> Plus, many other smaller projects that are
> listed in the TSA Meeting minutes.
>
>
>
>
>
> (Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you
> would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present when we
> conducted the votes on all of the above items).  8^(>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Lyndon Tiu
> [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
> Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM
> To:
> texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a
> Digital Online Member
>
>
>
>
>
> ellie :) wrote:
>  > The TSA membership fees cover much
> more than the cost of The Caver
>
> Joe Ranzau wrote:
> >
> Like?
> >
>
> Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the
> ICS, the TSA
> paid for their registration.
>
> --
> Lyndon
> Tiu
>
> -
> Visit
> our website: http://texascavers.com
> To
> unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional
> commands, e-mail:
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Texascavers] Electronic media

[Geary Schindel]

There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media that folks 
are still wrestling with.

This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but many 
professional journals are going on line and are only available through a 
subscription service.  If a college or university subscribed to a journal in 
print form, it would become part of their collection and available as a hard 
copy to anyone that wanted to view it.  However, now that some journals are 
only available on line through a subscription, they are only available if you 
pay for the service.  Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each 
year to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose which ones 
you want - you have to buy their package.  And if you don't renew, you lose 
access to all the journals, not just the year you didn't buy.

In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be honest, 
this technology is fairly new and relatively untested.  I do know that I can't 
read the disc containing my Thesis because I wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word 
star program.  The only surviving copies are paper (not that it was that 
important a work).  However books have survived for hundreds of years (assuming 
they are printed on good paper) and minus a few book burnings.

The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its head as we 
change media type.  Search engines are very powerful and have greatly added in 
doing research.  The flip side is that it could, in theory, disappear overnight.

FYI,

Geary

.

texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 16:31:27 -0000 Issue 913

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 16:31:27 - Issue 913

Topics (messages 12928 through 12947):

Re: Teenager, 17, hopes to outdo Shackleton and walk to south pole
12928 by: Chris Vreeland
12934 by: Mark Minton

Re: Looking for an internship
12929 by: Mixon Bill

Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member
12930 by: Alex Sproul
12931 by: ellie :)
12932 by: Joe Ranzau
12933 by: Lyndon Tiu
12939 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
12947 by: jranzau.gmail.com

Re: Digital vs. Print
12935 by: Logan McNatt
12940 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
12936 by: Rod Goke
12937 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
12938 by: Bill Bentley
12942 by: John Brooks
12945 by: Bill Bentley

Digital vs. Print 2
12941 by: Gill Edigar

Caver Memorial Web Page
12943 by: Ron Miller

World's most powerful flaslight
12944 by: Lee H. Skinner

TSA, Caver, and Caving
12946 by: Linda Palit

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Shackleton gets the short end of the stick when it comes to Antarctic  
glory. He may not have made the south pole on either of his  
expeditions (and first as an officer on one of Scott's early  
expeditions) but unlike Scott, on his first expedition he turned back  
from the pole when he realized his crew was in danger, and on the  
second, as a result of his epic & heroic open-boat sail to S. Georgia  
to effect a rescue, not a single life was lost under his leadership.  
Scott may have made the pole, but his poorly-planned assault ended in  
tragedy.


Far from "cursed," I think Shackleton deserves more from history for  
the strong leadership he showed in keeping his men safe, first of all.


Anyone seriously interested in this period of exploration should read  
Beau Riffenbugh's book Shackleton's Forgotten Expedition -- The Voyage  
of the Nimrod. It's a fascinating read, if you're into exploration, as  
I assume most of you out there in Caver-land are. :-)


Chris


On Dec 12, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Fofo wrote:

Oh, that would have been interesting! There would have been web  
pages on the "Shackleton curse."


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm certain that was a typo.  Earlier in the article they 
used almost the same language (in two different paragraphs), saying 
"Shackleton abandoned his attempt to walk to the south pole with 112 
miles remaining" and "Shackleton and three others abandoned their 
expedition in January 1909 with their food supplies running 
out."  Plus that list of great polar expeditions was chronological.


Mark Minton

Oh, that would have been interesting! There would have been web 
pages on the "Shackleton curse."


There was in fact an expedition with descendants from the Shackleton 
expedition, but they did reach the pole:

http://www.dawn.com/2009/01/19/int6.htm
http://www.shackletoncentenary.org/


And here's a TinyUrl address for the Guardian article, since it 
seems that it was chopped off in some e-mails:

http://tinyurl.com/yd5f3fe

Take care,

 - Fofo

Stefan Creaser wrote, on 12/12/09 11:06:

Are you sure it was a typo, wasn't it one of Shackleton's descendants
who gave it a go?
Cheers,
Stefan
-Original Message-
From: Fofo [mailto:gonza...@msu.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 12, 
2009 1:02 PM

To: texascavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Teenager, 17, hopes to outdo Shackleton and walk
to south pole
Howdy!
There's an interesting article in The Guardian. Not related to 
caves, though, but about an expedition to the South Pole:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/11/katie-walter-south-pole-shackle
ton
One interesting bit of information is that Shackleton gave it 
another try earlier this year:
"Shackleton and two others got to within 112 miles of the south 
pole in January 2009 before abandoning their attempt with food 
supplies running short."

Wow, you'd think that they would have been better prepared this time!
  - Fofo

(PS: I realize that the Shackleton 2009 thing a typo)


You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Forwarded by Mixon:

Begin forwarded message:

From: Justin Dickens 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: December 12, 2009 10:52:17 AM CST
To: "tenakee...@yahoo.com" , "carleneall...@hotmail.com 
" , "pisarow...@alumni.hamline.edu" >, "laga...@nmt.edu" , "vickie_sie...@yahoo.com" >, "edi...@amcs-pubs.org" 

Subject: Looking for an internship

Hello,

I go by Justin Dickens and i am asking for you attention because i  
would like to request a work opportunity from you. I grew up in the  
karst topography of Missouri, caving everyday i could. Now i am in  
Alaska atte

Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[jranzau]

Hey Mark -

In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also  
been the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple  
grotto officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's  
hard work and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what  
everyone does and have done much more shocking things than a one word  
email. I was also sitting right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options  
for things to do at Spring Convention when I responded to her email.


The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what  
unique things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is  
the same issue I struggled with when I was an officer.


*TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big  
winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it  
were the only one I bet it would grow.
*TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside  
from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR  
is explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out  
financially on more than one occasion.
*The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the  
94 convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA  
because it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle.
*It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our  
grotto put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the  
tractor working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique.
*TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA,  
probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the  
TSS? The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The Austin group is  
working a huge cave ranch near spring branch. etc.
*TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being  
affiliated with TSA.
*The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to  
contributed.


I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine  
with a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a  
bad thing and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents.


Joe



On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:



Some of the other items the
TSA has supported:







* A sizeable donation to the NSS for their
White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort.





* Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot
of survey equipment used around the state for various projects.





* A huge donation to the TCMA towards the
payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase.







Plus, many other smaller projects that are
listed in the TSA Meeting minutes.







(Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you
would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present when we
conducted the votes on all of the above items). 8^(>









Mark









From: Lyndon Tiu
[mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM
To:
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a
Digital Online Member







ellie :) wrote:
> The TSA membership fees cover much
more than the cost of The Caver



Joe Ranzau wrote:
>
Like?
>



Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the
ICS, the TSA
paid for their registration.



--
Lyndon
Tiu



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[Texascavers] TSA, Caver, and Caving

[Linda Palit]

I believe the problem with the bulk rate has been that we are not sending
out enough copies to get the bulk rate.  The truth is, also, that print
media is in decline.  I believe that it is probably time to revisit the
two-tier membership option and gradually phase that in.  As much as one may
approve or disapprove, even libraries are moving away from print in many
instances.

 

As to the function and usefulness of the TSA, it provides a strong link and
access to the greater caving community, especially the NSS. The TSA goes
through phases of being, and sometimes is more active than others.  But it
fills a niche that no other organization does.  It is an access point for
new cavers, and the spring convention is a great event, especially providing
a venue for news on exploration and scientific research.  

 

Continuity and institutional memory have been the greatest problems for the
TSA, and no solution has really solved that.  So the TSA wrestles with the
same problems over and over again.  Many organizations do the same, though.
TSA officers often go on to be major contributors in other caving
organizations, and they also look back and discuss all the ways TSA could
"do it better."  But they are not doing it, and are usually not willing to
be a TSA officer again or to be a major "actor" in the TSA.  

 

So be it.  Cheers to the TSA officers, members, and all the dedicated
writers and editors of the Texas Caver.  

Keep up the good work.

 

 

 

 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 7:39 AM
To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com; TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print

 

 

I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us, Logan, as I
plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the foreseeable future.

 

(Sorry to tell y'all that!)

 

 

I'll let the membership know how it's proceeding in January, but, I'm not
stepping foot in the post office until after Christmas!

 

 

Good point about the back issues, 

 

Anyway you or Lee Jay could bring ~12 of the recent issues to the winter
meeting at CBSP?

 

A certain vivacious Vice-Chair Elect is hounding me to get her some back
issues!

 

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

 

 

  _  

From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 7:21 PM
To: 'TexasCavers'
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print

I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The
Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all
that prefer them.  I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed
issues.

Questions for Mark:  What happened to using the Bulk Mailing Rate?  I assume
it requires a minimum number of copies, and perhaps we don't meet that?  I
like the color photos, but how much do they add to the cost of printing
compared to the same photos in B&W?  Just curious; I'm not advocating all
B&W.

Logan
(Caretaker of approximately 20,000 back issues of The Texas Caver owned by
TSA, most of which are not available electronically, but can be yours for
about 25 to 50 cents each.  A treasure trove of maps, photos, trip reports,
etc.; buy now before they're all gone!)

- Visit
our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail:
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 

Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

[Bill Bentley]

For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just 
stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who 
are very much appreciated.


Bill
- Original Message - 
From: "John Brooks" 

To: "Bill Bentley" 
Cc: "Rod Goke" ; "TexasCavers" 
; "Rod Goke" 

Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?


The TSA has my e mail.and I getoh maybe one or two junk mail 
messages per WEEK.
Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA 
for something they are not doing or really at fault for..hardly seems 
fair or reasonable.


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley"  wrote:

Rod,
My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3 
seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam 
folder and good spam sorting software on the email server  helps me figure 
what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of 
spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the 
drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that 
a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can 
currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of 
the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in 
the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...


Bill
- Original Message - From: "Rod Goke" 
To: "TexasCavers" 
Cc: "Rod Goke" 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?


All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver 
reminds me of a related issue:


  Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?

For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership 
renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this 
same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with 
mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in 
their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email 
address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The 
answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form, 
where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be 
harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.


I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, 
I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital 
publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of 
what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard 
from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information 
electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap 
and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it 
also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated 
harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our 
email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a 
digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to 
undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards 
digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital 
publication of email addresses

and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?

Rod


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[Texascavers] World's most powerful flaslight

[Lee H. Skinner]

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/cd85/?cpg=120H

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[Texascavers] Caver Memorial Web Page

[Ron Miller]

I need some feedback on the following two cavers. I can find info from Social 
Security Death records but I need a little more to go by. These are some names 
I got with nothing to back up the claims of their passing.


Where were they living at time of death?
What was the year they died?

--
Harvey R. Jackson, of Corpus Christi, NSS 3656
Donald L. Widener, of Dallas, NSS 3224
--


Ron Miller

Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

[John Brooks]

The TSA has my e mail.and I getoh maybe one or two junk mail messages 
per WEEK. 
Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA for 
something they are not doing or really at fault for..hardly seems fair or 
reasonable. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley"  wrote:

Rod,
 My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3 
seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam folder 
and good spam sorting software on the email server  helps me figure what is 
crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of spam... If 
someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the drugs, diplomas 
and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that a complete overhaul 
of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can currently send from and 
have the reply to address be different. A lot of the spam I gets looks as if it 
is coming to me from me... but buried in the header I find that it comes from 
Korea or China...

Bill
- Original Message - From: "Rod Goke" 
To: "TexasCavers" 
Cc: "Rod Goke" 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?


All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds 
me of a related issue:

   Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?

For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal 
forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period, 
however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and 
phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their "UT Grotto Phone 
List". Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe 
with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone 
List" is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal 
information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search 
engines, etc.

I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've 
heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication 
without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are 
advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time 
that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by 
placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to 
implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal 
information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use 
it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers, 
etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no 
cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the 
continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill 
considered digital publication of email addresses
 and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?

Rod


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[Texascavers] Digital vs. Print 2

[Gill Edigar]

Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto
your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser
printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that
postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical
hassle. It's the best of both worlds.
--Ediger

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Logan McNatt  wrote:

>  I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The
> Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all
> that prefer them.  I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed
> issues.
>

CONFIRM subscribe to texascavers@texascavers.com

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On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:47 AM,  wrote:

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RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG

[Mark . Alman]

No problem, Charles.
 
(I didn't say this), 
 
but, the Winter meeting may be a good time to bring this up, as most of the 
chronologically challenged cavers don't make it out to this meeting.
 
 
(Once again, I didn't say this).
 
 
8^)>
 
 
Mark
 
 
 



From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Fri 12/11/2009 3:45 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and 
Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG



I told you that I was going to bring this up again back after the
Spring TSA meeting.

Many people feel the same way, they just are afraid to speak up, for
fear of the wrath of a few of the older members.

I'll continue to speak my mind :)

Charles

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:31 PM,   wrote:
>
> Let's not go down that road again, Charles.
>
> The TC is coming being issued within our budget and we still have funds
> left over for additional activities.
>
> My point in my rant was to liven up CaveTex (mission accomplished) and
> to encourage more to go digital.
>
> I'm already seeing results of this, as well.
>
> Those that want a hard copy aren't going to break the bank, but, please
> folks, at least think about going digital.
>
>
> While I never keep a copy of the newsletter for myself, preferring and
> having them in digital format, there is a unique thrill and source of
> pride when they do arrive from the printer and I open the box for the
> first time and look at the finished product and say to myself, "Damn,
> that issue looks good!".
>
> Done patting myself on the back!
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 2:51 PM
> To: Pete Lindsley
> Cc: TexasCavers; Stefan Creaser
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the
> TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
>
> You know, we can easily put this to a vote at the next meeting :)
>
> Charles
>

RE: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print

[Mark . Alman]

 
I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us, Logan, as I 
plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the foreseeable future.
 
(Sorry to tell y'all that!)
 
 
I'll let the membership know how it's proceeding in January, but, I'm not 
stepping foot in the post office until after Christmas!
 
 
Good point about the back issues, 
 
Anyway you or Lee Jay could bring ~12 of the recent issues to the winter 
meeting at CBSP?
 
A certain vivacious Vice-Chair Elect is hounding me to get her some back issues!
 
 
Thanks,
 
Mark
 



From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 7:21 PM
To: 'TexasCavers'
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print


I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas 
Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer 
them.  I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues.

Questions for Mark:  What happened to using the Bulk Mailing Rate?  I assume it 
requires a minimum number of copies, and perhaps we don't meet that?  I like 
the color photos, but how much do they add to the cost of printing compared to 
the same photos in B&W?  Just curious; I'm not advocating all B&W.

Logan
(Caretaker of approximately 20,000 back issues of The Texas Caver owned by TSA, 
most of which are not available electronically, but can be yours for about 25 
to 50 cents each.  A treasure trove of maps, photos, trip reports, etc.; buy 
now before they're all gone!)
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RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member

[Mark . Alman]

Some of the other items the TSA has supported:
 
 
* A sizeable donation to the NSS for their White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response 
Effort.
 
* Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot of survey equipment used around the 
state for various projects.
 
* A huge donation to the TCMA towards the payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave 
purchase.
 
 
Plus, many other smaller projects that are listed in the TSA Meeting minutes.
 
 
(Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you would ask this. You're a board member 
of the TCMA and were present when we conducted the votes on all of the above 
items).  8^(>
 
 
 
Mark
 



From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member



ellie :) wrote:
 > The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver

Joe Ranzau wrote:
> Like?
>

Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the ICS, the TSA
paid for their registration.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

[Bill Bentley]

Rod,
  My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3 
seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam folder 
and good spam sorting software on the email server  helps me figure what is 
crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of spam... If 
someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the drugs, 
diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that a 
complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can 
currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of the 
spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in the 
header I find that it comes from Korea or China...


Bill
- Original Message - 
From: "Rod Goke" 

To: "TexasCavers" 
Cc: "Rod Goke" 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?


All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver 
reminds me of a related issue:


Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?

For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership 
renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same 
period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing 
address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their "UT 
Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email address was 
sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that 
the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form, where email 
addresses and other personal information is not likely to be harvested by 
spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.


I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, 
I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital 
publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of what 
they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from 
time to time that TSA publish its membership list information 
electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and 
convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it also 
could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated 
harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our 
email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a 
digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to undo 
the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards digital 
publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital publication 
of email addresses and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?


Rod


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Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

[JerryAtkin]

 
Well, the TSA does have an online listing of the electronically registered  
membership on its website.  It's a password protected site.
 
Jerry.
 
In a message dated 12/14/2009 2:05:11 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
rod.g...@earthlink.net writes:

All this  talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver 
reminds me of a  related issue:

Is it safe to give your email  address to TSA?

For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses  on the membership 
renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine.  During this same 
period, however, I have been providing my email address  (along with mailing 
address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for  publication in their "UT 
Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that  my email address was 
sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA?  The answer is that the 
"UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form,  where email 
addresses and other personal information is not likely to be  harvested by 
spammers, 
telemarketers, search engines, etc.

I don't have  that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, 
I've heard various  people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital 
publication without  adequately considering the negative consequences of what 
they are advocating.  Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from 
time to time that TSA  publish its membership list information electronically, 
perhaps by placing it  on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient 
for TSA to implement and for  TSA members to use, but it also could make our 
personal information much more  vulnerable to automated harvesting by those 
who would use it in ways we never  intended. Once our email addresses, cell 
phone numbers, etc. have been  harvested from a digitally published list, 
there would be no cheap and  convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be 
confident that the continuing  push towards digital publication within TSA 
will not lead to ill considered  digital publication of email addresses and 
other information vulnerable to  automated harvesting?

Rod

[Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

[Rod Goke]

All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds 
me of a related issue:

 Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?

For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal 
forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period, 
however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and 
phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their "UT Grotto Phone 
List". Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe 
with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone 
List" is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal 
information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search 
engines, etc.

I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've 
heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication 
without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are 
advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time 
that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by 
placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to 
implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal 
information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use 
it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers, 
etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no 
cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the 
continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill 
considered digital publication of email addresses and other information 
vulnerable to automated harvesting?

Rod


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