Re: [tips] Anonymous Post

[Michael Smith]

H.

Did faculty really go to school for umpteen years in order to be a recruiter?

Would administration expect a distinguished Harvard law professor to
be calling students and recruiting?

Perhaps we are not all distinguished Harvard law professors, but does
that mean we should be given less respect?

--Mike

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Helweg-Larsen, Marie
 wrote:
>
>
> Service obligations are always a slippery slope. The administration would
> like you (us) to do more and faculty would (generally in my experience) like
> to do less. I think that is a generally tension that can be handled (better
> or worse) by asking for volunteers, spreading the work across departments
> and faculty within the departments, giving some of it to the chair (e.g.,
> answering questions about the program, meeting with  students), and paying
> people (our faculty who advice students over the summer are faculty who are
> paid and who volunteered).
>
>
>
> I think the anonymous poster was asking whether there was something
> fundamentally wrong or different about this type of service (as opposed to
> all the millions of others small and big service activities faculty do).
>
>
>
> Marie
>
>
>
> 
> Marie Helweg-Larsen, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Psychology
> Danish Institute for Study Abroad (DIS), +45 2065 1360
>
> Dickinson College (on leave 2010/2011)
> http://users.dickinson.edu/~helwegm/index.html
> 
>
>
>
> From: FLINT, ROBERT [mailto:fli...@mail.strose.edu]
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:16
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: RE: [tips] Anonymous Post
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It is a slippery slope! We have been asked/required to participate in an
> increasingly growing number of such events over the years. While I agree
> that some recruitment-/conversion-/retention-related activity is ok, we are
> now asked to cover approximately 7 3-hr accepted student/transfer advising
> days over the summer during which we are not under contract, plus another 6
> or so prospective student and early acceptance events during the normal
> fall/spring academic year.
>
>
>
> Rob Flint
>
> -
>
> Robert W. Flint, Jr., Ph.D.
>
> Professor of Psychology
>
> The College of Saint Rose
>
> Albany, NY 12203-1490
>
> 518-458-5379
>
> fli...@strose.edu
>
>
>
> From: Helweg-Larsen, Marie [mailto:helw...@dickinson.edu]
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 4:04 AM
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: RE: [tips] Anonymous Post
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don’t think there is anything fundamentally wrong with having faculty help
> with recruitment. Faculty already help with recruitment in other ways (at
> least I do) such as by hosting prospective students in their classes,
> meeting with them, answering questions from them about the psychology
> program, etc. I’ve also given talks to visiting families (with my students
> about faculty-student research). A lot of colleges “sell” close
> faculty-student contact as one of their primary assets so getting a call or
> an email from a faculty member congratulating them on getting accepted is a
> way to reinforce that. It is also (I suspect) more meaningful to correspond
> with a specific faculty member instead of a staff person in admissions (at
> least about psychology related issues). Does it actually help? – I have no
> idea. I think the admissions people figure that personal contact is likely
> to make students feel welcome.
>
>
>
> Of course it should be voluntary (at a place I used to work, one faculty
> member said that she was pretty sure that her call discouraged students from
> attending because she was so awkward on the phone).
>
>
>
> Marie
>
>
>
> 
> Marie Helweg-Larsen, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Psychology
> Danish Institute for Study Abroad (DIS), +45 2065 1360
>
> Dickinson College (on leave 2010/2011)
> http://users.dickinson.edu/~helwegm/index.html
> 
>
>
>
> From: Annette Taylor [mailto:tay...@sandiego.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 22:24
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: RE: [tips] Anonymous Post
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh, it was not my post! But that's OK. It is someone else on tips who wanted
> to remain anonymous. I just want to clarify that this is NOT happening at my
> institution. Just for the record!
>
>
>
> I didn't realize that if I left off my sig line that it would still be
> linked to me, LOL. I posted this as a courtesy to another tipster.
>
>
>
> Annette
>
>
>
> Annette Kujawski Taylor, Ph. D.
>
> Professor, Psychological Sciences
>
> University of San Diego
>
> 5998 Alcala Park
>
> San Diego, CA 92110
>
> tay...@sandiego.edu
>
> 
>
> From: don allen [dap...@shaw.ca]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:26 PM
> To: Teaching in the Psy

Re: [tips] Let us abolish paper assignments

[Michael Smith]

Perhaps unnecessary, but just to highlight that there wasn't any
references "to the relevant literature" provided by anyone not just
Michael S. (who was highlighted in your selection).

There were no references to % of students sent to grad school, nor for
"if you can write you can think"
nor for "and you can "make it" in grad school", nor for "teaching
writing is teaching thinking".

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Chairs of committees

[Michael Smith]

Thanks Marc.
That's about how I viewed it.

--Mike

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Marc Carter  wrote:
>
> Here it depends on whether or not the committee is in the "faculty 
> governance" structure (curriculum, tenure/promotion, and like that).  If so, 
> it would be out of bounds for a Dean to chair a committee -- but there might 
> be a dean or two _ex officio_ (usually with voice but without vote) on other 
> sorts of committees.
>
> m
>
> --
> Marc Carter, PhD
> Associate Professor and Chair
> Department of Psychology
> College of Arts & Sciences
> Baker University
> --
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Michael Smith [mailto:tipsl...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:01 PM
>> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
>> Subject: [tips] Chairs of committees
>>
>> I was wondering what the opinion would be in TIPS with regard
>> to having administration as the chair of a committee
>> (typically the academic dean).
>>
>> Should the academic dean be the chair of any committee?
>> Why or why not?
>>
>> Or perhaps the academic dean should be chair of a only
>> certain committees What would those be?
>> Would they be ex-officio non-voting?
>>
>> What is the practice at your institution?
>>
>> --
>> -- Mike
>>
>> For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
>> (Hemingway)
>>
>> ---
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-- 
-- Mike

For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
(Hemingway)

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[tips] Chairs of committees

[Michael Smith]

I was wondering what the opinion would be in TIPS with regard to
having administration as the chair of a committee (typically the
academic dean).

Should the academic dean be the chair of any committee?
Why or why not?

Or perhaps the academic dean should be chair of a only certain committees
What would those be?
Would they be ex-officio non-voting?

What is the practice at your institution?

-- 
-- Mike

For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
(Hemingway)

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Re: [tips] Curious about department heads

[Michael Smith]

Thank you all for your responses.

My intuition agreed with Nancy's thoughts.

All of the courses are of course cleared through the various
committees so there should be no real reason for such a request except
for some form of assessment.

I think the request comes from a department head without much
experience and probably just figures that department heads should have
access to everything at any time.

--Mike



On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:23 AM, drnanjo  wrote:
>
>
> Though I am a department head currenly, I can only speculate.
>
> I'd never ask to look at a faculty member's online course shell unless there
> were some compelling cause.
>
> And even with a compelling cause the union and contract tend to exert a lot
> of restrictions on such activity. For example, nothing of an evaluative
> nature can take place in a physical or online classroom unless 1) it's the
> scheduled time for that evaluation or 2) there's some major complaint about
> the instructional quality. Something super serious, not just "this teacher
> is soo unfair..."
>
> Could this have to do with Student Learning Outcomes? At LBCC we are under
> quite a bit of duress from administration to place SLOs on our syllabi, even
> if we don't agree with the philosophy behind their construction and
> assessment. Maybe this instructor has yet to show evidence of placing them
> in a location at the sites where students will be made aware of them?
>
> I'll keep thinking about it.
>
> Nancy Melucci
> Long Beach City College
> Long Beach CA
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Smith 
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> 
> Sent: Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:13 am
> Subject: [tips] Curious about department heads
>
> I'm curious about what TIPsters think.
>
> A friend of mine received an email from his department head requesting
> that the department head have access (viewing only I presume) to his
> online courses (I think 'classes you teach' was the actual words).
>
> The reason being because the department head thinks that it "makes sense".
>
> I was wondering what TIPster's thought of the 'makes sense' part.
>
> Does it really 'make sense'?
> In what way?
>
> Or is the 'sense' a mild form of administrative paranoia that they
> have to know everything that goes on?
> Or is the 'sense' just because they want to know?
>
> --
> -- Mike
>
> For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
> (Hemingway)
>
> ---
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-- 
-- Mike

For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
(Hemingway)

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[tips] Curious about department heads

[Michael Smith]

I'm curious about what TIPsters think.

A friend of mine received an email from his department head requesting
that the department head have access (viewing only I presume) to his
online courses (I think 'classes you teach' was the actual words).

The reason being because the department head thinks that it "makes sense".

I was wondering what TIPster's thought of the 'makes sense' part.

Does it really 'make sense'?
In what way?

Or is the 'sense' a mild form of administrative paranoia that they
have to know everything that goes on?
Or is the 'sense' just because they want to know?

-- 
-- Mike

For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
(Hemingway)

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Re: [tips] Silly season for psychic psychology?

[Michael Smith]

JC: "I'm not sure how people claiming scientific evidence for
supernatural phenomena …"
Well, I think you switched "claiming an ability" with "claiming
scientific evidence for supernatural phenomena".

Mediums don't claim to have scientific evidence for supernatural
phenomena (SP). Indeed, I don't think believers in SP care about
scientific evidence with regard to SP at all. This does not mean they
are irrational, just that they think, rightly, that science cannot
investigate such matters.

Nevertheless, most scientists (and people like Alcock) point to a
general lack of evidence for SP. But, perhaps such people should
recall that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


JC: I'm not sure how Michael got from educating people about "concepts
that are questionable" to "force,"

Well, I got to it from Beth's response to the original comment which was:
" I guess one concern could be that discrediting claims of scientific
contact with the supernatural plane might only serve to undermine
further people's beliefs."

Which means to me that Beth's response could be paraphrased that it
should be a goal to undermine people's beliefs. Which has a
"subversive, forceful" quality about it. Apologies to Beth if this
interpretation is in error.

JC's other comments here (e.g. "continental drift is absurd") have
nothing to do with SP.


JC: "Michael's view would suggest that anytime there is a difference
of views in the scientific literature…" etc.

I find it curious that JC consistently uses examples from the physical
sciences, which are the true sciences, in an attempt, perhaps, to put
psychological results on the same sure footing.

So I think that JC's statement: "a difference of views in the
scientific literature" is misleading here. Results from psychological
studies do not carry as much weight in certainty as results reported
in the scientific literature  of the physical sciences.

Results from psychological studies are much less certain than results
from the physical sciences and so are much more open to interpretation
and debate.

--Mike


On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Jim Clark  wrote:
> Hi
>
> James M. Clark
> Professor of Psychology
> 204-786-9757
> 204-774-4134 Fax
> j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca
>
>>>> Michael Smith  14-Jan-11 8:50 AM >>>
> Jim Clark wrote:
> ...
> "Indeed one of the ironies, perhaps, of claiming such an ability is
> that it brings the whole area of the "beyond" under scientific
> purview..."
> Perhaps, but not really. Such claims do not bring the "beyond" within
> scientific purview at all.
>
> JC:  I'm not sure how people claiming scientific evidence for
> supernatural phenomena (e.g., precognition, esp, ...) can avoid bringing
> the area under scientific scrutiny.  Is Michael saying that the claimed
> evidence is irrelevant to the belief, is beyond criticism, or what?  I
> suspect he is correct in the sense that most true believers are never
> going to accept contrary evidence.
>
> MS Continued:
> Beth wrote:
> "Why would that be a concern?  It seems to me that should be a goal.
> At least, with the caveat that they begin to disbelieve concepts that
> are questionable from a scientific/rational viewpoint."
> I wonder why it should be a goal to try to force people to abandon
> their beliefs?
> Not only that, but especially if one is substituting a limited,
> narrow, scientistic set of beliefs about the world.
>
> JC: I'm not sure how Michael got from educating people about "concepts
> that are questionable" to "force," nor how a scientific world view is
> limited and narrow given the broad range of phenomena it subsumes.  Does
> Michael advocate people retaining beliefs like: humans and dinosaurs
> walked the world at the same time, continental drift is absurd, humans
> do not have similar DNA to other organisms, ...?
>
> MS continued:
> With regard to Joan's comment...
> I need only point to the peer-reviewed journal article of Bem's.
> Apparently Bem, the people of the journal, and the reviewers don't
> share your view.
> And they are "scientists" and know all about the scientific method.
> (Of course, that's assuming psychology is a science which is
> debatable).
>
> Why should I believe your version of *psychological science* and
> not
> Bem's, or the reviewers?
>
> JC: Putting aside the dig about psychology as science (advocated on
> Michael's department homepage) being debatable, Michael's view would
> suggest that anytime there is a difference of views in the scientific
> literature, one is free to choose whichever view one 

Re: [tips] Silly season for psychic psychology?

[Michael Smith]

Jim Clark wrote:
"Personally, I believe that Stephen's posting is quite appropriate
given the subject matter."

It’s not the subject matter which matters. It’s the people who share
those beliefs. And yet TIPSTERs apparently get upset when their belief
that proper decorum should be observed on this listerv is violated.
How hypocritical...but not unexpected.

"Indeed one of the ironies, perhaps, of claiming such an ability is
that it brings the whole area of the "beyond" under scientific
purview..."
Perhaps, but not really. Such claims do not bring the "beyond" within
scientific purview at all.

Beth wrote:
"Why would that be a concern?  It seems to me that should be a goal.
At least, with the caveat that they begin to disbelieve concepts that
are questionable from a scientific/rational viewpoint."
I wonder why it should be a goal to try to force people to abandon
their beliefs?
Not only that, but especially if one is substituting a limited,
narrow, scientistic set of beliefs about the world.

With regard to Joan's comment...
I need only point to the peer-reviewed journal article of Bem's.
Apparently Bem, the people of the journal, and the reviewers don't
share your view.
And they are "scientists" and know all about the scientific method.
(Of course, that's assuming psychology is a science which is debatable).

Why should I believe your version of “psychological science” and not
Bem's, or the reviewers?

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Silly season for psychic psychology?

[Michael Smith]

In reading your post, it seems as though your posting is riddled with
sarcasm, ridicule, and a-priori assumption.


When reading it, a scientific attitude is not what comes to mind.


--Mike

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[tips] British autism/vaccine study a fraud it seems

[Michael Smith]

see:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

-- 
-- Mike

For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
(Hemingway)

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Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot

[Michael Smith]

Mike Burman wrote:
"Moreover, blinking to a tone that predicts an insult to the eye is
clearly a beneficial response in any sense."

Yes, I suppose so.

If it were up to me though, I think I would consider "placebo" to be a
subset of expectancy effects which are medically beneficial.

The rest I would consider expectancy and/or classical conditioning effects.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot

[Michael Smith]

Michael Burman wrote:
"I think no one has answered this because it is essentially correct.
Classical conditioning is a likely mechanism for the placebo effect.
Robert Ader gave a talk at the Pavlovian Society Meeting a couple of
years back showing that the immune system in rats could be classically
conditioned to respond to a CS via pairings with an immuno-suppressent
drug."

I think this is incorrect.

The original question was
"why any classically conditioned stimulus could not be viewed as a  placebo"

The original question was not about the mechanism of placebos (Michael
Burman's response) or some of the other issues raised by Rick and
Claudia, interesting though they may be.

In the traditional conditioned eye-blink response the stimulus is a puff of air.
Now, could a puff of air be conditioned to produce a placebo effect
(i.e. physically or psychologically beneficial response)?
I suppose it's "possible", but I think unlikely.

Not every pairing can be learned with equal efficacy and some
presumably cannot be learned at all.
(For example, a feeling of increased well-being is unlikely to be
induced by severe electrical shock).

Hence my original response highlighted the beneficial aspect of the
placebo effect, and not every stimulus capable of inducing a
classically conditioned response would result in a placebo effect.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot

[Michael Smith]

> No one has really addressed my question as to why any classically
> conditioned stimulus could not be viewed as a  placebo (or nocebo).

Not being a behavioral specialist I see my opportunity here :)

I would imagine that any stimulus used to entrain a classically
conditioned response
would not be considered a placebo in general, because a placebo
implies, in general,
a beneficial physical or psychological effect.

Conditioning an eye blink response, while being a physical response,
is nevertheless not beneficial.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] "Observed & experiential integration therapy"

[Michael Smith]

I think this is the same as one eye integration therapy that was
talked about a little on TIPS before.

I think it's a one-eyed version of Eye Movement Desensitization and
Reprocessing (EMDR) Therapy.

The website of two major players is found here:
https://www.sightpsych.com/

--Mike

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 5:23 PM,   wrote:
> On 1 Jan 2011 at 15:53, don allen wrote:
>
>>
>> Second: I just had a call from a psychiatrist friend of mine who is
>> doing an Independent Medical Exam (IME) on a patient who is claiming
>> severe post traumatic stress disorder. The patient is being "treated"
>> by Dr. Paul Swingle (http://www.swingleandassociates.com/)using
>> "Observed & Experiential Integration Therapy". A search of
>> PsychAbstracts turned up no useful hits in the literature.
> 
>
>> So my questions are:
>>
>> Has anyone else heard about this "therapy"?
>> Does it have any standing within the clinical community?
>
> A number of years ago I was asked by a former student to look into
> another therapy carried out by Dr. Swingle, neurofeedback or
> neurotherapy for the alleged hyperactivity (ADD) of my student's
> daughter. It took a supreme effort to locate my reply, which turned
> out to have been sent in 2000.
>
> According to my letter, Dr. Swingle is a former academic psychologist
> (at McMaster, as it happens, when I was a graduate student there)
> whose specialty was social psychology, in particular, game theory. He
> published a number of articles in this field in the 1960's, then
> nothing for about the next 30 years. Then he published a paper
> "Neurofeedback treatment of pseudoseizure disorder (Biological
> Psychiatry, 1998). The paper was a report of three cases of
> "pseudoseizure activity" in which he was able to modify some index of
> their brain activity, with little evidence that this helped their
> seizures. He noted "Due to the rare nature of this disorder, however,
> control groups are difficult to obtain, which in turn limits the
> extent of these findings".
>
> I felt that if this was his best evidence for neurofeedback therapy
> for ADD, it was not impressive. Nor did I find evidence published by
> other authors advocating neurotherapy to be any more convincing. In
> addition, I had reservations concerning the use of brainwaves as a
> means of diagnosing the ADD of my student's daughter's in the first
> place, a method which seemed unorthodox and insufficiently validated.
>
> I suggested to my student that she should be extremely cautious in
> accepting the claims of this controversial therapy. A glance at Dr.
> Swingle's web page  suggests that he continues to be a advocate of
> neurofeedback for a variety of conditions, and  "Observed and
> Experiential Integration Therapy" is likely the same stuff or
> similar. Perhaps he has managed to obtain better evidence since I
> last looked at the matter.
>
> Stephen
>
> 
> Stephen L. Black, Ph.D.
> Professor of Psychology, Emeritus
> Bishop's University
> Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada
> e-mail:  sblack at
> ubishops.ca
> -
>
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-- 
-- Mike

For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
(Hemingway)

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Re: [tips] A Doctor in Iraq

[Michael Smith]

Nevertheless, regardless of how much "stretch" is involved, there is
no evidence this view is actually the case and therefore is an opinion
(from a particular worldview) and is not science or psychology. There
are many "possibilities" that could be involved involved in this case
(not necessarily involving spirits) that weren't mentioned.

In addition, calling an opinion an hypothesis doesn't make it any more
certain nor does it make it any more scientific or psychological: it
remains an opinion. Neither does asserting the superiority of one
explanation over another in the absence of evidence. It isn't the case
that Allen's "hypothesis" is being measured against the "spirit
hypotheses" but it is actually preferred against ALL other possible
explanations--and that without evidence.

I was just under the impression that many on TIPS champion evidentiary
living and the scientific attitude in every day life and how useful
such an approach is. But what I usually find is a lot of opinion such
as this one. These opinions are typically held without any actual
evidence. And not only that, but the opinions typically involve value
judgments such as "forced", "problem", etc. (which are beyond
science).

--Mike

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Re: [tips] A Doctor in Iraq

[Michael Smith]

It seems to me the "possibility" of the poor young woman being forced
to marry against her will is rather being almost forcefully insisted
upon by Allen with no evidence whatsoever.

Another example of American cultural insensitivity?

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Re: [tips] What Is Forgiveness?

[Michael Smith]

"Some hold that unilateral forgiveness is the model,
pointing to the much discussed case of the Amish unilaterally
forgiving the murderer of their children (for an account of this
case, see “Amish Grace: How Forgiveness Transcended Tragedy,”
by D. B. Kraybill, S. M. Nolt, and D. L. Weaver-Zercher).
I contend, by contrast, that the ideal is bilateral, one in which
both sides take steps."

So nice he has an unfounded opinion.

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Re: [tips] "Neurobabble"

[Michael Smith]

lol.
The video was very funny!

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Re: [tips] The joy of stats

[Michael Smith]

I agree.

I wouldn't normally respond to Mike P's personal innuendos and
comments in kind (which are usually, if not always, initiated by him
to multiple posters on TIPS), but I thought I would this time in order
to highlight its inappropriateness and the degree to which Mike P is
willing to engage in this kind of behavior.

However, I have little hope that his behavior will change.

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Re: [tips] The joy of stats

[Michael Smith]

Again Palij you miss the points. It's pretty funny how you do that so
consistently, but not surprising.

You don't confuse me by hiding your 'logic' behind being long
winded...it's just really boring.

Maybe instead of giving your interpretation of wikipedia, just provide
a title and the link
that should cut down your posts by probably 60%. lol

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Re: [tips] The joy of stats

[Michael Smith]

Mike P:
"As someone who is familiar with the research methods literature in sociology".
Congratulations. I think most here are familiar with regression.

"I am puzzled about (a) why you are laughing (outside of your being prone
to laugh at things for no apparent reason)
...better than being a pedantic bore.

"(b) why you think regression
lines and scatterplots describe all of the results in sociology."

I think you're just permanently puzzled.
If you think that a couple of names or a journal establishes your
point of the great complexity of
analysis used throughout sociology you're just wrong (again) and that
despite your liberal use of Wikipedia

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Re: [tips] The joy of stats

[Michael Smith]

I think I'll try to match Allen's lengthy response.

I haven't read it (The Spirit Level) either (although I think I have
it somewhere and have been planning to).

I think Chris made a good point that it is a popular book and so
perhaps focuses on readability.
This, however, doesn't mean the analysis is poor. And for it's critics
to point out that it doesn't present detailed statistical analyses, is
I think, ludicrous. It isn't after all, a journal article.

But the best part of Allen's response is the funny parts.

One funny thing in Allen's post was:
"...who regards himself as “about as anti-inequality an economist as
you’ll find”)..."
Well I guess that settles that. This is proof positive that God exists.
We have at last found a truly objective (unbiased) individual who is,
miraculously, a government worker !!

But the most hillarious one is from one critics response that Allen
presents that includes:
"The evidence presented in the book is mostly a series of scatter diagrams,
with a regression line drawn through them."

This is hillarious !!!
The reason being, of course, is that the statement is a good
description of all the
results in sociology.

I'm still laughing at that one.

Thanks Allen.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Stanford Dissertation Browser

[Michael Smith]

Seems interesting. Of course it depends on what the software is
actually doing, but word overlap doesn't necessarily mean semantic
overlap.

--Mike

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Frantz, Sue  wrote:
>
>
> Interesting Discover blog today:
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/how-close-are-scientific-disciplines.
>
> The author discusses the Stanford Dissertation Browser.
>
> “The Stanford Dissertation Browser is an experimental interface for document
> collections that enables richer interaction than search. Stanford's PhD
> dissertation abstracts from 1993-2008 are presented through the lens of a
> text model that distills high-level similarity and word usage patterns in
> the data. You'll see each Stanford department as a circle, colored by school
> and sized by the number of PhD students graduating from that department.”
>
> http://nlp.stanford.edu/projects/dissertations/browser.html
>
>
>
> Which dissertation abstracts are closest, according to their criteria, to
> the ones produced in psychology?
>
>
>
> Some were unsurprising, such as education, linguistics, psychiatry, and
> neurobiology.
>
>
>
> Others were more surprising, such as electrical engineering and geophysics.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sue Frantz Highline Community
> College
> Psychology, Coordinator    Des Moines, WA
> 206.878.3710 x3404  sfra...@highline.edu
>
> Office of Teaching Resources in Psychology, Associate Director
>
> Teaching of Psychology Idea Exchange (ToPIX)
>
> APA Division 2: Society for the Teaching of Psychology
>
>
>
> APA's p...@cc Committee
>
>
>
> ---
>
> You are currently subscribed to tips as: tipsl...@gmail.com.
>
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>
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-- 
-- Mike

For Sale: Baby Shoes, Never Worn.
(Hemingway)

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Re: Re:[tips] A brilliant discovery

[Michael Smith]

"Too bad there's no job for people who remember odd bits of arcana"

I think there is ... a psychology professor :)

--Mike

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Re: [tips] More anti-social-science ... from the public.

[Michael Smith]

lolthat's hillarious...the studies were pretty funny too (except
of course for the fact that money may have been wasted on them).

But what comes through clearly is that the public knows best...they
aren't fooled by the eggheads (thank God!).

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Objectivity and statistical reality

[Michael Smith]

Yes.

The self-referential nature of the post was fully realized and
intentional (including the apparant paradox).

--Mike

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Paul Brandon  wrote:
> And you of course are a Tipster.
>
> Paul Brandon
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology
> Minnesota State University, Mankato
> paul.bran...@mnsu.edu
>
> On Dec 7, 2010, at 7:55 AM, Michael Smith wrote:
>
>> Or could be that TIPSTERS fall 2 standard deviations below the mean,
>> as they are insulated in an academic cocoon safely removed from
>> reality.
>
>
>
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Re: [tips] Objectivity and statistical reality

[Michael Smith]

Or could be that TIPSTERS fall 2 standard deviations below the mean,
as they are insulated in an academic cocoon safely removed from
reality.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Early Seasons Greetings!

[Michael Smith]

Thank you for the post David.

Yes it would be good if people were "trying to reclaim the altruistic
spirit of the original Santa
Claus" (Saint Nicholas).

I will be sure to visit her site.

 :-)

--Mike

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, David Myers  wrote:
>
>
> What fun to return from delivering St. Nicholas Eve gifts to a few family
> and friends and to find Mike, Carol, and John's postings about St. Nicholas
> Feast Day.  I live in Holland, Michigan--a Dutch heritage (though now
> diverse) community that many years ago introduced my wife and I to St.
> Nicholas, who is celebrated in the Netherlands as Sinterklaas.  This
> weekend, several hundred children here in Holland, MI, greeted the arrival
> of St. Nicholas in a main street parade.  Our living here also led my wife,
> Carol, to create a website devoted to St. Nicholas (which, if history
> repeats itself, will have more than 100,000 visitors today and tomorrow).
>
> To make this entry pertinent to psychology, the spirit of St. Nicholas (and
> of those trying to reclaim the altruistic spirit of the original Santa
> Claus) was nicely captured in a 2009 European Journal of Social Psychology
> study of the priming of altruism among Dutch children.  Tilburg University
> social psychologist Diederik Stapel and his colleagues offer this synopsis,
> from their discussion section:
>
> One may think that traditions like the Dutch Saint Nicholas tradition makes
> children materialistic, greedy, and less likely to share with others as they
> are spoiled with gifts and candy.  However, our results clearly show that
> children in The Netherlands still associate Saint Nicholas with "sharing
> with others" . . . .
>
>
>
> Significant others, such as family members, friends, and Saint Nicholas, are
> pre-eminently the people that influence us and that teach us what is good,
> and what is bad, and what the social norms are in our society. . . . Give
> Dutch children a coloring picture depicting the attributes of Saint Nicholas
> (a book, miter, and a staff) and they will give away more of their candy.
>
> J
> Dave Myers
> www.davidmyers.org
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Mike Palij  wrote:
>>
>> December 6 is celebrated among certain groups as St. Nicholas' Feast Day.
>> St. Nicholas lived from 270-347 A.D. and is considered as the basis or
>> precursor to Santa Claus.  For more info about old St. Nick, there is a
>> Wikipedia entry (yadda-yadda); see:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas
>>
>> Quoting from the entry:
>> |He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the
>> |shoes of those who left them out for him, and thus became the model
>> |for Santa Claus, whose English name comes from the Dutch Sinterklaas.
>>
>> Make sure you check your shoes before you put them on tomorrow.
>>
>> Also, December 19 is observed by some who follow the old (Julian)
>> calendar.
>> Check your shoes then, too.
>>
>> -Mike Palij
>> New York University
>> m...@nyu.edu
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [tips] Is there a real scientific Psych

[Michael Smith]

Please leave the poetry and allegory and metaphor to English majors,
they do a much much better job.

>From what I read, it seems that the author has missed most of the
pionts entirely and has inserted his own misconceptions to further
"clarify" the issue.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] something new?

[Michael Smith]

Gee, yes you certainly should review them, because they are different...
that's why they have different names don't you know. lol.

My point was that it would be difficult to show that the MBTI isn't a
valid measure of personality.
This is connected with the "truth" aspect de-bunkers like to think
they bring to the scene
and was the main point connected to debunking...as if we need more
white knights.

One could perhaps show that it is an unreliable measure though,
although I doubt that will turn out too well either.

By the way Rick. Reliability isn't just zero or one, there's a whole
range in there which you may not have noticed.

However, the most important point to me was that business likes it and
presumably it functions well for them.
And that it is a free market economy, which lets them spend their
money on what works best for them.

Clearly the MBTI fits the bill.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Psychological Science

[Michael Smith]

Well...I actually never said what I think of psychology as a science.

Of course, a disproportionate amount of its credence as a science, if
indeed it has much,
could come from those parts that are closest to biology such as
neuroscience. While the
rest such as personality and social may reside in a fuzzy non science state.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] something new?

[Michael Smith]

De-bunking would, it seems to me, mean that one has shown that the
target of the de-bunking is not the "truth".
But the MBTI is in the realm of personality analysis.
I think personality is at best an extremely fuzzy concept.
If this is true, how then can one debunk the MBTI?

Presumably, the only thing one can show is that it isn't a reliable measure.
I don't think one can make a very strong case that it isn't valid.

Not only that, but the MBTI is well received by business I think. That
is, it "works" for their purposes.
Is it fair? Is it true? Is it valid?
These questions all seem to me beside the point.

In a free-market economy, let the buyer beware.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Psychological Science

[Michael Smith]

The requirements I've seen in Canada typically have a course in the
social sciences as part of the core.

But, the core also includes a "science" credit. The only choices are
the physical sciences and sometimes math.
Any psychology courses would count as a credit in the "social
sciences" but not as a "science" credit.

With regard to Rick's comment, of course the the traditional physical
sciences (Biology, Chemistry, and Physics) are the quintessential
sciences...to argue otherwise, even obliquely would be at minimum be
odd).

Often now are added things such as Astronomy, Geology, and
Environmental Science (tends to be combinations of geology,
oceanography, and meteorology) and sometimes Math.

But no psychology course can count as a "science" credit--only as
credit in a discipline under the rubric of "social sciences"

This says, to me, that educators do not consider the social sciences
as a bonafide science. (I think this applies to high school too).
And usually one cannot get a psychology credit to be considered a
science credit by university administration.

So if university and public school educators and administrators (and
of course the general public) do not consider psychology a science,
then it seems that the only ones who might are psychologists
themselves (hence I think Chris' comment).

--Mike

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[tips] Psychological Science

[Michael Smith]

If psychology is a science, then why don't psych credits count toward
a science requirement in a BA program?

--Mike

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Re: [tips] I need to share...

[Michael Smith]

Sad but highlights that a BA is just the equivalent of what high
school used to be.

There is no higher in higher-ed.

--Mike

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Marc Carter  wrote:
>
>
> From a method section in lab report:
>
> "Surveys were given out in a face to face passed out fashion..."
>
> I don't know why, but that's near the top of my "Best of" student writing...
>
> The holidays cannot get here too soon.
>
> m
>
> --
> Marc Carter, PhD
> Associate Professor and Chair
> Department of Psychology
> College of Arts & Sciences
> Baker University
> --
>
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> recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or 
> copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this 
> e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and 
> immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments 
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Re: [tips] On Objectivity - and what research findings make us uncomfortable?

[Michael Smith]

What I usually find uncomfortable is that people use "research" to
support their personal views.

For example, Michal Britt finds that he's ok with the research that
finds homosexuality is not a mental illness.
This is clearly not what research shows since it can show nothing of the kind.

Another is the implication that we should be teaching students to heavily
consider research before making up their minds on an issue.
This is a monsterous implication and presumption.
Far more important is what their parents and friends think about it,
what religion says about it,
what literature and the arts say about it, and what their own feelings
and beliefs say about it.

Another one is thinking that somehow the personal beliefs of an
instructor are important.
They simply are not.
It can only be hoped that students already know this. Of course, if they
are in my classes then they will.

Lastly I'll mention the lip service paid to the "scientific attitude".
Exemplified in treating research results as if they actually were conclusive.
If one were to actually live as we try to foist on students, then all
one could say would be:

"Homosexuality may not be a mental illness, we just don't know for sure.
Indeed, all of the results of psychological research is like that.
That is, anything you learn in class is tentative and incomplete. In the end,
you will just have to make up your own mind about an issue."

Hopefully, we would be responsible people and add, "Please make
sure you take several courses in the Humanities so that you get a
more balanced and realistic view of life."

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Should we be objective?

[Michael Smith]

I think Jim's post highlights some of the problems when talking about
"objective", "evidence", "opinion", etc.

That is, the reviewer Jan Golinski is simply promoting further
"evidence" for his views while Jim sees through this
with his more "objective" knowledge which presumably puts the lie to Golinski.
(Yes I know I'm interpreting a bit here, but if I try to avoid doing
so, I would be in danger of writing an essay :))

What recent crankiness on TIPS?
Is that an Objective assessment? A Neutral assessment? An opinion? or an Agenda?
Justify your view using at least 46 references. Please include a full
history and critical analysis of epistemology.
You should include a particular emphasis on Kant's the Critique of Pure Reason.
The response should be exhaustive and complete with a discussion
section which delineates the role of this analysis
in evidence based living or its lack thereof. Be brief.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Canada's early intolerance

[Michael Smith]

Well, I pay little attention to due dates :-)
Hmm. It seems the point, silly as it is, is still not getting across.
I'll try to simplify further...

My point was:
Must a post be in essay format to be well thought out, informative,
and properly referenced?
Put another way, the Essay Hypothesis:
"A post MUST be in essay format to be well thought out, informative,
and properly referenced."
(must was capitalized incase that was missed before)

Is the essay hypothesis true? My correct answer is no.

The only way the "essay hypothesis" can be true is if it is impossible
to see the above qualities in a non-essay response.
This is obviously not the case.
Simply strip the essay let's say of descriptives for example (plainly,
obviously, elegant, melodramatic, etc.) and there you go. It may not
be as easy to read, but all the information will still be there, but
it will no longer be an essay.

I think the original intention, however, was the objection to verbiage.

This is not an insult despite what Stephen may gleem from
dictionaries. It does mean an over-abundance of words which implies
they are unnecessary.

Here is an example of verbiage (from Allen):
"This thread is well past its sell-by date, and I had no intention of
prolonging it,"

Here is an example from me
"Well, I pay little attention to due dates :-)"

Should verbiage (unnecessary words) be eliminated?

Definately Yes. If one feels they detract from the post.

Definately No. If one feels they don't detract or even enhance the post.

So there you have it.

I think all who contributed here should be rightly proud of their
efforts. I'm sure Monty Python would be :-)

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Resource and reference books

[Michael Smith]

I agree that Martin Bolt's resource manual is fantastic.

Unfortunately for those in Canada. Some of the resources (e.g. a
particular psychology video series recomended in the manual (which I
wanted to get)) are not sold in Canada. :-(

But the printed material and resource suggestions in the manual are
great and make the manual an amazing resource (everything from
demonstrations, discussion questions, to feature film suggestions and
web links). I was sent the printed manual itself with a binder, as
well as a cd with the manual as a PDFmakes it searchable :-)

Simply The Best.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Canada's early intolerance

[Michael Smith]

S. Black responds to this thread with:

"...uncharacteristically disagreeable..."
I disagree. I don't find the discussion disagreeable, just a discussion.

"it's time I expressed an opinion"
OK. This must be significant I guess, but I'm not sure why.

"'Verbiage' refers to more than just the length of a contribution.
It's also an insult, implying that the words are superflous or
meaningless"
I disagree. I don't see the word verbiage to be an insult. It means an
over-abundance of words. Which was the point of the argument: Whether
or not essay-type posts have too many words (which was obviously from
the very beginning, a personal preference).

So. I view the whole point as: Is it a necessity that a post on a
list-serv be in the form of an essay in order to convey a well thought
out and documented response about a topic?

My answer is no.

Note that this view has nothing to do with what is preferable or
desirable (or required in other contexts).
Some Tipsters may enjoy reading essay responses, some may not.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Canada's early intolerance

[Michael Smith]

In response to: "It is tiring and unnecessary (I think) to wade
through a lot of verbiage particularly on a list-serve"
Allen said " I find that a rather remarkable comment, on two counts.
First, no one has to "wade" through any post on this listserv"

First the first statement isn't really remarkable at all.
Of course, if you want to be very literal you can claim Allen's
response as being a legitimate interpretation.
Of course it isn't, and he knows it I presume (or perhaps I presume too much).

An intelligent interpretation would be that the statement presumes the
person is interested in the subject.
Then to find out what the author is saying, the reader must read all
the verbiage.

If Allen and Mike P really believe that it's news to people that they
don't have to read what they don't want to..well what can you say.

Allen's second point. "Second, this is a listserv for professionals
(academics, one might say). There are some issues that cannot be dealt
with adequately in a few concise sentence..."

This is clearly wrong.
There is no subject no matter how complex that cannot benefit from concision.
It also excludes most of the posts here since almost nothing discussed
here is "complex".

In addition, no one suggested that the response:
not be well thought out
must be limited to a few sentences.
not include references

The actual point was:

Complete english sentences and paragraphs are unnecessary and so are quotes.

Including these actually detracts from the essential points.
That is, for busy "professionals (academics, one might say)."

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Canada's early intolerance

[Michael Smith]

It is tiring and unnecessary (I think) to wade through a lot of
verbiage particularly on a list-serve.

Perhaps what Chris meant was, instead of essays:

skip the quotes
make it point form with concision

(of course the same criticism could be leveled at M. Palij who also
tends to be an essay writer)

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Future shock

[Michael Smith]

I also would highlight (from Allen)
"...how one judges the case... "

--Mike

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Re: [tips] The Shadow Scholar

[Michael Smith]

Personally I found that the article stated nothing new,
over-represented the problem, and most of all was really boring.

I think the author's self-aggrandizing real point is that he is an
amazingly gifted and brilliant scholar which the college system failed
to recognize. I also imagine that he pictures himself to hold the
equivalent of a Ph.D. in many, many areas. I see the author as a
frustrated juvenile who finally got a "publication" of his own in the
aforementioned article.

I think his "ghost writing" behavior is being fueled by his blaming
and general contempt for college, academics, and faculty. He is
getting-back-at-the-system which wouldn't recognize his amazing
talents.

BORING.

P.S.
This personality profile of the author was constructed by me and does
not represent the opinion of any known clinical psychologist living or
dead. Any resemblence to a real personality profile is accidental :-)

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Future shock

[Michael Smith]

Aw.

I don't think we should pick on psychologists.

Every academic discipline has it's pre-cognitives as I pointed out
recently about Joseph S. Nye's (Harvard) TED talk where he assures us
about certain aspects of the future.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Propensities

[Michael Smith]

I think you're right Kimberly.

One shouldn't need to any of the answers before posting.

Post Hold Diggers sometimes end up thinking that they are the only
ones that know what they're talking about.

Obviously this isn't true and is known to all except said Post Hold Digger.

I would keep posting and ignore the self-inflating tendencies of some.

--Mike

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 1:58 AM, Allen Esterson
 wrote:
> At the risk of disturbing a hornets' nest :-):
>
> Kimberly Patterson wrote:
>> Thanks Ed.  Sorry if someone put something in your coffee that
>>may have upset you but you simply could have skipped over my
>>question and leaving your nasty comment.
>
>>Isn't this supposed for be a valuable source for colleagues
>>who are passionate about Psychology to help each other out?
>>Isn't this a place to prevent the "wheel from being recreated"?
>>Or to help each other or question topics?
> […]
>>I do not have time to teach about Google searches in a very
>>limited time frame
>
>
> Thinking of contributions to TIPS over the years, is there a propensity
> (note that word!) for (some) men posters to be to be more combative
> than the women? This is an issue that has exercised some atheist blogs
> I've visited in recent months.
>
> Feel free to ignore this post (not that that would be a first :-) ).
>
> Allen Esterson
> Former lecturer, Science Department
> Southwark College, London
> allenester...@compuserve.com
> http://www.esterson.org
>
> ---
>
> From:   Kimberly C. Patterson 
> Subject:        Re: tips digest: November 09, 2010
> Date:   Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:22:03 -0500
> Thanks Ed.  Sorry if someone put something in your coffee that may have
> upset you but you simply could have skipped over my question and
> leaving your nasty comment.
>
> Isn't this supposed for be a valuable source for colleagues who are
> passionate about Psychology to help each other out?  Isn't this a place
> to prevent the "wheel from being recreated"?  Or to help each other or
> question topics?
>
> For a minute, I thought maybe in the high school we are more
> understanding of co-workers and helpful.  Maybe all the AP teachers
> that work endless, unappreciated hours understand the fine courtesy of
> sharing.  However, thank you to the three TIPSTERS that sent me private
> e-mails excusing Ed's bullying behavior. I am glad to see some people
> do have courtesy and cordialness.
>
> I do not post to TIPS often because I do not want to be chastised.  I
> am saddened by this happenstance and it makes me reconsider for the
> future or sharing this site with others.  I apologize for wasting
> anyone's time but I figured to give it a shot, and get some quick info
> due to the fact that I teach two jobs totaling 80+ hours a week, both
> as an AP Psychology instructor and in a very unappreciated position -
> despite having a 100% pass rate for the last two years on the National
> AP exam with every student I teach taking the exam - and surviving as
> you can tell by the hour of penning - with little sleep. First and
> foremost, I give my time to my AP students to prepare them by teaching
> EVERYTHING required for the AP Psych exam - every chapter, every
> definition, every concept -- multiple textbooks.
>
> I do not have time to teach about Google searches in a very limited
> time frame.  Glad to know that you do. I would hope that you are not
> skipping any chapter to "fit" this important psychological skill into
> your valuable curriculum.
>
> Kimberly C. Patterson, M.S., Ed.S.
> Cypress Bay High School
> AP Psychology Instructor
> TOPSS Membership Coordinator
> WISE Coach
> "GO LIGHTNING!"
> www.PattyPsych.com
>
> Education is what survives when what has been learned has been
> forgotten. - BF Skinner
>
> An understanding heart is everything in a teacher, and cannot be
> esteemed highly enough. One looks back with appreciation to the
> brilliant teachers, but with gratitude to those who touched our human
> feeling. The curriculum is so much necessary raw material, but warmth
> is the vital element for the growing plant and for the soul of the
> child. - Carl Jung
>
>
>
>
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Re: [tips] American men are becoming chicks

[Michael Smith]

>"The last time I used the  C word the New England and the California first 
>responders and other female tipsters were highly offended."

lol. Really?... fascinating that adults can be "highly offended" by a
word. Apparently that valuable lesson that used to be learned in
kindergarten is no longer taught.

>Btw,isn't the European shoulder bags that men wear in Europe a sort of a 
>feminizing thang?

Could be. I think the American comedian would agree. (If they actually
carry such bags...other than Seinfeld that is)
His main point being that the trend toward the feminizing of
everything is definitely bad news.
And that's nowhere more apparent than in education and especially in psychology.

Are you becoming chauvinistic?
If that means that I think the feminizing of education and psychology
is a bad thing...then yes :-)

--Mike

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[tips] American men are becoming chicks

[Michael Smith]

At least according to Comedian, author Adam Carolla American men are
becoming chicks and all Americans will be chicks in 50 years:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/11/05/ps.adam.carolla.int.cnn?hpt=T2

...I wonder if he got his cue from academics where the process seems
to be a lot further along?

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Why isn't this plagiarism?

[Michael Smith]

Marie said:
"In fact, in the biological sciences it is common for the lab director
to be an author on every paper produced by his/her lab even if he/she
did nothing specifically to create the paper or research."

And this is also the case in bio-psychology (or is that
psycho-biology...ahem, I digress).

Indeed, some are still of the old school (probably because they are
old(er)) where the lab owner is the first author in every paper,
regardless of their actual effort in said paper.

I think either is fine, in that they are after all the creator and
intellectual force behind the establishment and continuance of the
lab.
With biopsych (and other areas I imagine), often the technical help
(lab assistants etc.) do not get mentioned unless the PI is
open-minded and they had some form of direct contribution to the
paper.

With regard to politicians--besides that anything goes if you can get
away with it--I imagine it's ok since it is their thoughts and they
are just getting "technical" help in putting those thoughts onto paper
(and help in avoiding stepping on the wrong toes).

--Mike

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Re: [tips] 100 Reasons NOT to Go to Graduate School

[Michael Smith]

I think everyone knows the truth contained in the list; except perhaps
people who have been "grandfathered" ;-).

If you want a better version try this one:
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7451115/?ref=nf

--Mike

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Mike Palij  wrote:
>
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:26:09 -0700, Annette Taylor wrote in
> reponse to Prof. Michael Smith:
>>Well, now that's an attitude that will generate job security for those
>>of  remaining in academia. But it won't do anything for students who
>>really would like to aspire to become college professors! Or who
>>just like life-long learning and knowledge generation.
>>
>>I saw no winky or other nonverbal cue that perhaps this was said
>>tongue in cheek, so I am taking it at face value...perhaps I shouldn't.
>
> First, I think that Miguel was being ironic or simply humorous.
>
> Second, I think that Prof. Smith is not being ironic or humorous.
> One gets the impression that he is not happy with his career choices
> and his comments below reflect this attitude.  I'm sure I will be
> corrected if I am in error.
>
> Third, we should always be cautious in advising students about
> graduate school (it can be a difficult experience even for the
> smartest student -- perhaps because they are so smart) and the
> possibilities of a future career.  Some will complete the Ph.D.
> and go on to academia or non-academic research careers or
> clinical practice/research or leave the field completely and go into
> some other endeavor.  Where one winds up depends upon the
> opportunities that are available to them and what decisions one makes.
> It should be made clear that certain options (e.g., becoming a
> college professor) are likely to be limited to people who have
> gone to graduate school.  If that is the choice one has made, then
> one will have to learn to live with it.  The decision should be one's
> own and not made by someone else or to please someone else.
> Also, tt may have to be pointed out how boring it will be for
> others if one makes the decision to whine about their decisions
> that they have made, such as going to gradaute school and/or
> going into academia, which they now regret.
>
> -Mike Palij
> New York University
> m...@nyu.edu
>
>
>
> On Sunday, October 31, 2010 10:00 AM, Michael Smith wrote in
> response to Miguel Roig:
>>>Sounds good.
>>>
>>>It's about time the word got out that graduate school is a waste of
>>>time, especially in the social sciences and humanities.
>
> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Miguel Roig wrote:
>>>>If you are in the middle of academic advisement perhaps
>>>>this may useful to you:
>>>> http://100rsns.blogspot.com/p/complete-list-to-date.html
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>
>
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Re: [tips] The Failure of Higher Education And Its Effect On U.S. Politics

[Michael Smith]

An equally entertaining news item is this Ted Talk which highlights
divinatinatory practices among academics.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/10/31/nye.rise.china.fears/index.html?hpt=C2

I wonder if he prefers the tarot card or the crystal ball?

--Mike



On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Mike Palij  wrote:
> This year U.S. politics appears to be a little sillier, a little more
> vicious, and, well, just plain stupider than other elections in the
> past (then again, I may be repressing memories of more ridiculous
> elections).  One example of this sad state of affairs is given to us
> by the good citizens of Denver, Colorado who want to set up a
> commission for aliens.  The Wall Street Journal had an article
> on this yesterday;  quoting from the WSJ:
>
> |Ballot Initiative 300 would require the city to set up an Extraterrestrial
> |Affairs Commission, stocked with Ph.D. scientists, to "ensure the health,
> |safety and cultural awareness of Denver residents" when it comes to
> |future contact "with extraterrestrial intelligent beings or their vehicles."
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303341904575576192201885522.html
>
> Perhaps the saddest part is the following:
>
> |He and several other volunteers spent a recent afternoon hanging
> |flying-saucer posters on a college campus in Denver. More than
> |a few students brushed past with bemused looks. But those voters
> |who stopped to talk seemed taken by the concept, especially when
> |they learned that the ET commission would be financed by donations,
> |not tax dollars.
> |
> |"I don't really believe in extraterrestrial life, but if we set something
> |up like that, we'd be prepared for anything," said Brandon Coby, 23 years
> |old, a biology major at the University of Colorado. "You can't go wrong
> |with it."
>
> You don't know how happy I am that it was biology major and not a
> psychology major who was interviewed (though it is possible that this
> person has a promising career in neuroscience ;-).
>
> The article ends with:
> |The intergalactic-ectoplasmic smackdown ends Tuesday. No polling
> |has been done on the initiative. But a 2005 Gallup poll found one in four
> |Americans believes extraterrestrials have visited Earth. One in three
> |believes in ghosts.
>
> And if you think that the WSJ just represents the "effete, elitist, east coast
> intelligentsia" (which would be ironic given that it is now a Murdoch rag) 
> here
> is a link to the Denver Post newspaper that covered the issue:
> http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_16471380
> Quoting:
> |Remember, city voters once approved impounding the vehicles of illegal
> |immigrants; we might as well prepare to impound the UFOs of these illegal
> |aliens, too.
>
> Apropos Halloween: be afraid, be very afraid.
>
> -Mike Palij
> New York University
> m...@nyu.edu
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [tips] 100 Reasons NOT to Go to Graduate School

[Michael Smith]

Sounds good.

It's about time the word got out that graduate school is a waste of
time, especially in the social sciences and humanities.

--Mike

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 4:22 PM,   wrote:
>
>
> If you are in the middle of academic advisement perhaps this may useful to
> you:   http://100rsns.blogspot.com/p/complete-list-to-date.html
>
>
>
> :-)
>
>
>
> Miguel
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
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>
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Re: [tips] Why don't we hear more about such things?

[Michael Smith]

H Jim.

No, you're not mistaken, that was me. The last part of my last post
was that the discussion of knowledge was actually tangential to the
belief thing as a belief.

Of course it was certainly nice to have the discussion about knowledge
and the various points of view presented

I note your empiricist concern of "unsubstantiated", but don't worry I
wouldn't go the whole epistemological route in a psych class.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Why don't we hear more about such things?

[Michael Smith]

Thanks for the link Jim.

I would disagree that my previous post implies that one must use
'knowledge' in a "quirky or loose way". As your link shows, there is a
recognized position of irrational knowledge (irrational, of course,
without any pejorative connotation).
Although I'm not implying that the belief that 'God saved them' is
necessarily irrational. However, I don't think that not being an
empirical statement automatically invalidates a statement as being
knowledge.

I also disagree that the assumption of empirical justification is the
"more correct usage", rather it is the usage of term 'knowledge' in
the empirical tradition.

I agree that we do indeed (or at least should) " try to teach our
students about how to substantiate beliefs (i.e., hypotheses) so that
beliefs/speculations/hypotheses become sound knowledge about human
behaviour?" But that is simply because we are teaching psychology. (I
take exception, though, to the equating of beliefs with
hypotheses-in-the-empirical-sense).

Also, I don't think I implied that we should "...admit any strongly
held belief as being "true knowledge," irrespective of its
justification,..." to the field of psychology. If psychology is a
science, then of course it must use the rational-empiricist view of
knowledge.

>"Of course, most people who do want to extend "truth" into a wider domain 
>usually are quite restrictive about what beliefs they want to admit as true."
To me, this seems to be a swipe at any approach to knowledge that is
not empiricist. Empiricism is only one approach to knowledge and it
has its own problems and limitations.

Of course all of this discussion of knowledge has very little to do
with my original context which was that the "God saved them" statement
is a statement of belief not an argument (despite the ensuing
'argument' which was at best tangential :-)  ).

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Why don't we hear more about such things?

[Michael Smith]

Chris wrote
"Which is precisely why it doesn't count as a candidate for knowledge
(for anyone remotely sympathetic to Popper)."

I think I would agree that the statment wouldn't count as a scientific
hypothesis, but not that it couldn't count as knowledge.
To say that assumes a scientific world view where the falsifiability
thing is king. It is conceivable, though, that one can have true
knowledge without such knowledge being falsifyable in the least.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] revisionist history

[Michael Smith]

Oh well. Look on the bright side. At least it's not as bad as
Britain's cutting 40% of the budget from higher education.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/20/spending-cuts-george-osborne-axe

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Why don't we hear more about such things?

[Michael Smith]

I don't know if Stephen actually intended to mock the psychics, but
Allen's response:
"Stephen rightly mocks the psychics" is I think innappropriate.
Because their world view (presuming the psychics believe they are
truly psychics) differs from one's own does not give one the right to
"rightly" mock them.

The fact that Dawkins loves to mock, belittle, use name calling, and
encourage disrespect of religion and religious people I think speaks
to his adolescent-like emotional maturity and should not be emulated.

>From my point of view, the "'God saved them' argument'" isn't intended
as an argument and does not lead to '"a brittle kind of
religiousness'". It's simply a statement of belief (which, by the way,
cannot be shown to be incorrect).

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Freud and intellectuals

[Michael Smith]

I suppose it could be put down to belief perseverance and confirmation bias.
Just as UFO enthusiasts interpret contrary evidence to fit their
preconceptions, I imagine Freud believers do the same.

Personal intelligence and "critical thinking" are often of little help
when it comes to assessment (or reassessment) of firmly held
convictions.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Deans Can't Count on First Amendment

[Michael Smith]

Shows you the illusory nature of "rights"and I wonder how weak the
rights are of an individual professor are.

I guess it still, and always will come down to whoever has the greater
force is the one who makes the rules and decides the "rights" of
everyone else.

The "constitution" of countries can always be ammended.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] behavioral dilemma

[Michael Smith]

I don't go for the germs theory either. In Canada (at least for the 3D
movies) the glasses are in plastic pouches, giving at least the
illusion of germ free :-)

Personally I would postulate the "I don't want to disturb the symmetry" theory.

I've noticed that many people are a bit hesitant to actually cut the
wedding or birthday cake as this would spoil the beauty of it, and
other similar things when something is "complete" or nice to look at
as is.

Perhaps a similar mechanism is at work here. The "pile" after all has
no symmetry to speak of, while the nicely arranged glasses (in a very
nice semi-circle no less) are a sight to behold!

Perhaps the Gestalt people could supply some real theoretical
underpinnings to support this "hypothesis". E.g., our preference for
wholes and completeness.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Freud's case histories

[Michael Smith]

Very interesting to read your two posts.

I haven't looked into Freud really at all, so this is news to me.
Was the VAST majority of his published stuff (and the theories of his
system) doctored and (at times completely made up)?

E.g. the glove aneasthesia case so often referred to in intro psych
was innacurate? hyped? made up? or fairly accurate.
If this is one of those destroyed cases, given the apparantly
systematic alterations to suit his theories, what do the historians
think about the case?

P.S. I guess I will have to (I mean, will be delighted to) get your
book. Does your book delineate which parts of his theories would be
most suspect? Or is the general conscensus that it's all cr*p?

--Mike

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Re: [tips] behavioral dilemma

[Michael Smith]

I hesitate to point this out, butthere is no evidence that this
behavior exists or is "automatic" and that the "fact" that "he fully
understands that when people go to these places they are not
'themselves' but rather some zombie-like shell of themselves" to me is
a bizzarre assumption. Especially when the ensuing
activity/analysis/discussion is based entirely upon this assumption.

Since it's intro psych I would ask stuff like: How is this level of
"automaticity" to be measured? How experienced is the student an in
observing human behavior in the field (aware of biases such as
confirmation of belief)? How many people actually take from the
tangled pile--one needs a count in general and counts tied to the
variables of interest: height, sex, time of day, etc.

In short, the student has an anecdotal suspicion that something is
going on, couched in imprecise and 'familiar' language--perhaps a good
place for ideas...but it certainly needs tightening up. Not the least
of which is to check whether the 'phenomenon' actually exists through
an actual count (preferably by an unbiased observer). So I think the
first step is a simple count and a t-test.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] It Takes Women To Make A Group Intelligent

[Michael Smith]

Well, according to the popular article:
"But the team's scores had little to do with the intelligence scores
of individual members, or with the score of the "smartest" person on
the team, the researchers reported."

So, actually then, the "c factor" would have little to do with intelligence.

--Mike

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Mike Palij  wrote:
> Science magazine has published an article online that has already
> been reviewed in the popular media.  The article describe the
> "collective intelligence" or "c factor" demonstrated by a group of
> people engaged in group problem solving.  One popular media
> account can be read here:
> http://news.discovery.com/human/group-intelligence-wisdom-crowd.html
>
> The abstract and access to the Science article is available here:
> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;science.1193147v2?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=anita+william+woolley&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT
> or here:
> http://tinyurl.com/2cj6gbf
>
> Quoting from the abstract:
>
> |This "c factor" is not strongly correlated with the average or
> |maximum individual intelligence of group members but is correlated
> |with the average social sensitivity of group members, the equality in
> |distribution of conversational turn-taking, and the proportion of
> |females in the group.
>
> I wonder what this says about the intelligence of all male groups? ;-)
>
> -Mike Palij
> New York University
> m...@nyu.edu
>
>
>
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[tips] If you act now, you can get 20% off an MA dissertation

[Michael Smith]

http://dissertationblog.com/

--Mike

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Re: [tips] How many deaths do you think it will take?

[Michael Smith]

I have heard that it's supposed to be the "inescapable" part that is
particularly troubling (and of course the anonimity of the web allows
behavior that would be perhaps harder to do in public where there can
be witnesses and a possible source of help).

Now, I'm not plugged in and turned on I guess (I don't have a facebook
page, or even a cell phone, etc.)., but I don't really get the
internet part.

Can't the victim restrict who can post what on their "wall"?

Failing that, can't the victim simply delete their facebook page and
start another under a different name and let only their real friends
know about it?

The cyber-bullying seems a bit odd to me. After all, being on-line is
a voluntary activity. No one is forcing the victim to go online
(unlike a physical confrontation in which you have little choice).
Perhaps parents need to take a more active role and restrict computer
access and monitor what goes on (through the use of "spying" software
if need be).

P.S. I don't think I'll let my daughters have a cell phone: no texting
and no "sexting" (at least that's what I think now, but they're not
teenagers yet).

--Mike

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[tips] How many deaths do you think it will take?

[Michael Smith]

You know the type of story...
After 5 kids get killed playing on the street, THEN the city decides
it might be a good idea to put a stop sign.

In a similar vein, I was wondering how many suicides (such as the most
recent one: the 13 year old girl Hope) would have to occur before
bullying and cyber-bullying is considered a punishable crime?

I think you can't call gays names and harass them without risking
being charged with a hate crime.

Shouldn't bullying also be considered to be a hate crime?

Perhaps social psychology can answer why our systems are so slow to react.

Why it takes so many deaths or other serious consequences before the
legal system does anything about it (or is even willing to notice it).

--Mike

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Re: [tips] I knew it! Psychology sunk the Titanic!

[Michael Smith]

I dindn't want to imply that it wasn't a good article for a psych class.
I find I can use almost anything to illustrate something in psychology
or as a discussion starter.

Even for motiviation class...she is after all promoting her new novel
"Good as Gold". The entire story of what happened during the sinking
of the titanic could indeed be made up by her. For example, I don't
find anything convincing at all (in the article at least) as to why
her grandfather, a decorated navy officer, would have lied to the
investigation committee in the first place--it is merely asserted that
he did so. There is nothing culpable for the sinking in his purported
actions. And of course, since no one can contradict Louise Patten's
story she can claim whatever she wants (and probably will).

Could a new movie be in the future if her book is well written
enough...blending known fact with storytelling?

Perhaps she can already smell the money...I personally smell a fish here.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] I knew it! Psychology sunk the Titanic!

[Michael Smith]

Actually it was her grandmother who told her.
Which means, the story is also at least twice removed from the source.
Also, to mention a few other variables: the story is dependent on more
than one person's memory processes, assumes Louse Patton knew what he
was talking about (would the ship really have been safe going the
other way? would have stayed afloat longer sitting still), assumes
that Robert Hitchins had been told which way to turn and made a
mistake, and that Louse Patton remembers that too, and that the press
is accurately reporting what they heard.

I wouldn't put much stock in it.


--Mike

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Michael Britt
 wrote:
>
>
> You may have heard that there are new details regarding what caused the
> Titanic to sink.  It did indeed hit an iceberg, but here is what Louse
> Patton (grand daughter of Charles Lightoller, Second Officer who survived
> the Titanic) said her grandfather told her:
>
> "Instead of steering Titanic safely round to the left of the iceberg, once
> it had been spotted dead ahead, the steersman, Robert Hitchins, had panicked
> and turned it the wrong way.’
> Titanic was launched at a time when the world was moving from sailing ships
> to steam ships.
> My grandfather, like the other senior officers on Titanic, had started out
> on sailing ships. And on sailing ships, they steered by what is known as
> “Tiller Orders” which means that if you want to go one way, you push the
> tiller the other way.
> [So if you want to go left, you push right.] It sounds counter-intuitive
> now, but that is what Tiller Orders were.
> Whereas with “Rudder Orders’ which is what steam ships used, it is like
> driving a car.
> You steer the way you want to go. It gets more confusing because, even
> though Titanic was a steam ship,
> at that time on the North Atlantic they were still using Tiller Orders.
> Therefore
> Murdoch gave the command in Tiller Orders but Hitchins, in a panic, reverted
> to the Rudder Orders he had been trained in."
> A case of proactive interference (something you learned earlier interferes
> with your ability to learn something new)?
> Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/8016751/The-truth-about-the-sinking-of-the-Titanic.html
>
> Michael
>
> Michael Britt
> mich...@thepsychfiles.com
> http://www.ThePsychFiles.com
> Twitter: mbritt
>
>
>
>
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Re: [tips] Professor fired.

[Michael Smith]

Mike P: Perhaps you are just a bigot?
Bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed,
belief, or opinion. (Reference: A dictionary)

You pretend to be open minded, but your bigotry and anti-religious
stance shines through anyway.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Professor fired.

[Michael Smith]

Hi all.

Well...my use of quotes around the word fact was to designate that I
don't know that it was a fact.

The use of question marks was to denote that I'm asking some questions
with regard to provocative behavior (and dress) of young latina women
when cultures were mixed in a classroom way back when. The example is
in my memory, so the questions were in the hope of probing the
collective memory of those on TIPS, and then perhaps that would lead
to references.

The latina women is one example that I seem to remember, another one I
seem to remember was cultural differences in laughing (Asian?) where
the member of the minority culture supposed they were being laughed AT
rather than that everyone thought what they said was funny.

And finally, if there are cultural differences, is a prof allowed to
point them out?
It seems to me that freedom of speech and academic freedom is an issue
with this kind of thing.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Professor fired.

[Michael Smith]

Being the x-cultural dude Michael S. should be able to point me in the
right direction here.

Wasn't it a recognized 'fact' a while ago (70's?) that young Latina
women behaved more seductively and provocatively than your average
young american women and that the young american men took the behavior
as a come on? But that it was explained as a cultural difference and
as an example of the types of problems that can arise in mult-cultural
classrooms?

I wonder if one would be fired today for consistently pointing out
cultural differences of this sort.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] New advances in eye movement therapy

[Michael Smith]

I wouldn't say the only problem with the claims of OEI is lack of peer review.

For one example, this cut and paste from the website is, to me, devoid
of meaning:

"In contrast, in OEI clients actually observe changes in cognitions,
emotions, and physical sensations, depending on which eye they cover.
In that way, they cannot discount the duality of experience, and
discover that one of the “observations” is a distortion. This leads to
“mentalizing” (standing back and reflecting on the disparate
experiences from a higher-order self). For clients with a great deal
of emotional lability, this is an entirely new experience."

--Mike

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[tips] New advances in eye movement therapy

[Michael Smith]

If you thought EMDR was an advance, well we now have something better:
OEI (One Eye integration Therapy).
Yes its true. OEI therapy only needs to use one eye, so maybe its
twice as good as EMDR!

At any rate, here's what some 'observers' have said:
"... OEI is like a combination of EMDR, Educational Kinesiology
(‘Brain Gym’), and Gendlin’s Focusing." (https://www.sightpsych.com/)
(It seems that they now prefer Observed and Experiential Integration).

There's a nice picture of the discoverer of this breakthrough (Audrey
Cooke) and her business partner (Bradshaw) at the bottom.
Audrey also works with multigenerational trauma in case you need some
help with that.

Here's an excerpt from some promotional literature from Trinity
Western (a Canadian University)

"The success of OEI lies in its ability to deal with these long-hidden
memories and traumas. Throughout sessions, clients are encouraged to
override appropriate social norms and behaviors, allowing themselves t
express emotions and memories more primitively. In some instances,
patients have had startling physical responses. Bradshaw recalls a
woman who was choked unconcsious by a relative on several occasions as
a child. 'As we connected with the event visually using OEI, the marks
on her neck showed the hand-prints of her abuser.'" (Conscientia: The
research publication of Trinity Western University, 2009, pg. 5).

There's just so much in this therapy it's wonderful. Talk about
cross-discipline integration!

Maybe good for your critical thinking class Annette. And we could be
witnessing the birth of a new cult.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] cults

[Michael Smith]

I'm sure there are hundreds of cults in the US alone and probably most
of them don't commit mass suicide...but of course what constitutes a
"cult" is hard to define.

Many are probably aimed at causing damage to a system (to force
change) that they see as dysfunctional (e.g. skin heads? KKK? "the
family" of the Earth Liberation Front? Green Peace?).

An interesting write up of the members of Aum Shinrikyo can be found
in this Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

One interesting aspect to include in discussions may be the apparant
failure of higher education (and "critical thinking"?) to be able to
do too much about cult membership (many of the members of the cult
listed in the page above are highly educated (medicine, physics,
graduate work).

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Galileo Was Wrong?

[Michael Smith]

Ok...I'll believe you about Darwin if you stop using language like 'he
ceased to believe' (by his mid 30's) if he actually didn't believe in
any serious way before that :) -- Of course this is no indictment
against being religious, or that a scientist can't be religious, just
that he wasn't.

At the risk of being repetetive, though, the take home message of this
post wasn't about Darwin.

It was about the reasonable supposition that Christianity provided the
inspiration, impetus and the conditions from which a science could and
did grow and that the men responsible for it believed in the Christian
God and that the science developing actually glorified God, as did
their use of our reason.

I think it also points out that one can be an intelligent person (even
highly intelligent), a scientist, and a deep thinker and still believe
in God.
I highlight this because in the "new atheist" attacks on religion
nowadays, religious people are often characterized as non-thinking,
backward, and barbaric and will-believe-anything sort of people. Of
course there will be always be some people like that, but they can
just as well be scientistic as religious.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Galileo Was Wrong?

[Michael Smith]

Well...there's way too much there to comment on. But a couple of
comments anyway:

Some thoughts about Marc Carter's post.
Marc said that my original contention was that:
>"thoughtful theologians" were responsible for modern science, not that the 
>collection of people who invented science were religious.

I may have been unintentionally misleading, but my actual contention
was much more the latter: that the people involved with the
development of science thought that their explorations using God's
highest gift of reason was glorifying God. That is, their science was
religiously motivated--not that they were professional theologians. In
the sense that Christianity has a specific theology (that God created
a lawful universe accessible to reason, etc. etc.) these men were
motivated to create their science to better understand the Christian
God.

>Reflection on the world and the human condition led to the development of 
>science, not reflection on the existence or characteristics of gods.
This is a categorical statement about which I disagree. It was exactly
the reflection on the characteristics of the Christian God as spelled
out in Christian theology that both inspired and allowed these men to
embark on the scientific enterprise.

>Read Gleick or Michael White on Newton.  His Christianity didn't make him a 
>scientist, and his commentary on the Bible didn't make him a theologian.
I think it is pretty clear that Newton was a very religious man and
that he considered himself in the service of God and uncovering the
knowledge of God as he undertook his scientific activities. I would
assume that Gleick and White simply are anti-religious.

True to form Mike Palij managed to come up with some obscure
individual in order to further complicate the issue (with standard
disclaimers also), prefaced by:
>One problem with "shallow" explanations like that provided by Prof. Smith is 
>that it fails to recognize that others may have made
similar sorts of claims

Actually, I don't think that's a problem at all and Mike's post seems
rather like a non-sequitur.

and finally, Allen commented:
> Leaving aside that Darwin was hardly among "the first scientists", it
is erroneous to state he was religious. On the contrary, he had ceased
to believe in the tenets of Christianity by the early 1840s, and
following the death of his beloved daughter Annie in 1850 he ceased to
be a believer in any kind of conventional religious belief.

Yes, I know that Darwin isn't among the first scientists.
I included Darwin because he is the object of almost orgasmic devotion
by at least some very vocal atheists (and probably their
followers)--their god one might say--and because he also was
religious: at least in the beginning, as shown by your post that "he
had ceased to believe". So then, Darwin too at least started out
religious and his motivation for engaging in the study of the natural
world could well have been a religious one.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Galileo Was Wrong?

[Michael Smith]

Well, I didn't mean anything very deep.
Just that the first scientists were all very religious men. Bacon,
Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, and Darwin for example.
They saw (like Aquinus) that an orderly, rational, lawful universe was
a reflection of those qualities of its creator.
And studying nature was a way of glorifying God and coming to know the
mind of God more fully (by discovering the divine order) since his
creation reflected at least some of his qualities even if only on a
lower level.

So science was the result of a worked out theology. One might even
call science "practical theology" since these men believed their
investigative activities were glorifying God through the application
of one of his crowning gifts: reason.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Galileo Was Wrong?

[Michael Smith]

I'm thinking that the dark ages weren't so dark and science is a
natural outgrowth of thoughtful Christian theology.
So, without the dark ages and Christian theology, science wouldn't be anywhere.

--Mike

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Jim Dougan  wrote:
> I sometimes engage in a speculative exercise with my students - imagining
> what might have happened had the Dark Ages not intervened between the "Greek
> Miracle" and the Renaissance (of course, it wouldn't have really been a
> rebirth).  Seriously - where would science and technology be today had
> progress been more continuous?  I am thinking Star Trek
>
> ;)
>
>
> At 04:25 PM 9/15/2010, you wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Marc Carter wrote:
>>>
>>> Those old guys were *smart*...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If ever you hear of a concentration of philosophical, scientific, and
>> artistic talent like there was in Athens between, say, 450 and 350 bc (a
>> city of about 100,000 back then) move there and start drinking the water,
>> breathing the air, and eating food grown from the surrounding ground.
>> Something pretty astonishing was happening back then. (And when you consider
>> that geniuses like Aristarchus and Archimedes came a century later during
>> the Hellenistic "decline"... )
>>
>> Chris
>> --
>>
>> Christopher D. Green
>> Department of Psychology
>> York University
>> Toronto, ON M3J 1P3
>> Canada
>>
>>
>>
>> 416-736-2100 ex. 66164
>> chri...@yorku.ca
>> http://www.yorku.ca/christo/
>>
>> ==

 -Original Message-
 From: Christopher D. Green
 [mailto:chri...@yorku.ca]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 2:49 PM
 To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
 Subject: Re: [tips] Galileo Was Wrong?

 Just for the record, Aristarchus of Samos outlined a
 heliocentric model of the universe 1700 years before Copernicus.

 Chris
 --

 Christopher D. Green
 Department of Psychology
 York University
 Toronto, ON M3J 1P3
 Canada



 416-736-2100 ex. 66164
 chri...@yorku.ca
 http://www.yorku.ca/christo/

 ==


 =

 Marc Carter wrote:

>
> Good points, John.
>
> It was really Copernicus who gave us the notion that you
>

 could better explain the motions of the planets; it was
 Kepler who worked out elliptical orbits (but hated them --
 circular motion required no explanation, but ellipses do),
 and Newton who invented gravity to explain the elliptical orbits.

>
> Galileo gave observational evidence that there were more
>

 than "seven heavenly bodies" in his observations of the
 satellites of Jupiter.

>
> He gets the "blame" because he was the one who provided
>

 evidence for the notion that things weren't as the Ptolemaic
 system would have it.

>
> m
>
> --
> Marc Carter, PhD
> Associate Professor and Chair
> Department of Psychology
> College of Arts & Sciences
> Baker University
> --
>
>
>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: John Kulig
>> [mailto:ku...@mail.plymouth.edu]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 6:44 PM
>> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
>> Subject: Re: [tips] Galileo Was Wrong?
>>
>>
>> Yeah, I agree! (sort of, but ...) My understanding
>>

 (haven't read the

>>
>> original) is that Copernicus (Latinized from the Polish name
>> Kopernik) was theoretically embedded in the medieval way
>>

 of thinking

>>
>> which was to try to fit the available data into pre-existing
>> medieval-style thinking. I believe he showed that either a geo or
>> helio-centered universe could be made consistent with
>>

 existing data.

>>
>> Galileo deserves a tremendous amount of credit for pushing science
>> forward, but look to Kepler's three laws of planetary motion
>> (1609/1619) for a real data-driven science (Tycho Brahe's data
>> though), moving from the perfect circles of medieval thinking to
>> elliptical orbits. But in empirically derived laws, he saw a
>> different sort of perfection, mathematically, such as the
>> relationship between distance from the sun and time to
>>

 orbit (3rd law

>>
>> I believe) ...
>>
>> ==
>> John W. Kulig
>> Professor of Psychology
>> Plymouth State University
>> Plymouth NH 03264
>>
>>

 

>>
>> GALILEO GALILEI:
>> I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who
>>

 has endowed

>>
>> us with sense, reasons

Re: [tips] Self-plagiarism

[Michael Smith]

> (I don’t mean that he is good at it, just that he knows a lot about it.)

lol. That's funny. Especially since it kinda imply that he couldn't
actually apply the knowledge.

--Mike

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Rick Froman  wrote:
>
>
> http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/57676/
>
> Interesting post on The Scientist.com with quotes from TIPSter (and
> plagiarism expert) Miguel Roig. (I don’t mean that he is good at it, just
> that he knows a lot about it.)
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Froman
> rfro...@jbu.edu
>
>
> ---
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>
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Re: [tips] They Too Died That Day

[Michael Smith]

My take would be that "curious directions" are directions he perhaps
thinks are not worthwhile talking about.
And I agree most are related either directly or indirectly to the
"madness" aspect and what-can-we-learn/teach from it.
Including the stereotypes of muslims and christians.

But anyway, I don't think in a public forum like a listserv that a
poster can expect to exercise control over the discussion, no matter
what he/she thinks is the important point.

--Mike

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Jim Clark  wrote:
> Hi
>
> It is not clear what Mike thinks are "curious directions."  Most of the 
> responses I have seen appear to be reactions to the Mike's characterizing 
> what was happening as "madness" and asking "what critical thinking lessons 
> psychologists will teach about this madness."  Perhaps it was not his 
> intention for us to focus on that aspect of his posting?
>
> Take care
> Jim
>
> James M. Clark
> Professor of Psychology
> 204-786-9757
> 204-774-4134 Fax
> j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca
>
 "Mike Palij"  13-Sep-10 9:21:41 PM >>>
> I started this thread several days ago with the post below which
> focused on a Muslin family who had lost a family member on
> 9/11.  I felt it was necessary to remind people that many different
> groups of people died that day and the current attempt by some
> to "Christianize" 9/11 should make wonder why such a thing was
> occurring.  The contributors to this thread has taken the discussion
> in curious directions and I decided not to respond until now.  On
> ...
> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:08:43 -0700, Mike Palij wrote:
>>An article in the NY Times focuses on one family that deals with
>>their grief over the loss of a father and husband in the 9/11 attack
>>on the World Trade Center.  How they have dealth with the attack
>>and the aftermath should give us and, if we share with our students,
>>pause.  See:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/nyregion/10muslim.html?_r=1&th=&emc=th&pagewanted=all
>>
>>The fact that the family is Muslim would be incidental except for
>>the recent madness manifesting itself in U.S. religious and political
>>circles.  I wonder what critical thinking lessons psychologists will
>>teach about this madness?
>
>
>
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Re: [tips] They Too Died That Day

[Michael Smith]

JC.
Your question assumes that the default position has been to read the
bible literally. However, the 'dogmatic literalist' view is a
distortion of modern times. So, the short answer to your question
'when did people seriously consider the bible from a non-literalist
view' is: Always. From the beginning, theologians did not take the
bible "literally" or simplistically, but have always thought deeply
about it's message.  Indeed, from the 2nd to 6th centuries (the time
of the church fathers), the 'default position' of biblical
interpretation was primarily allegorical. The 1600's (although not
exclusivley) saw the addition of historical criticism. It's only in
modern times (last 50 years?), that the bible has been taken in a
simplistic, slogan-like way by both fundamentalist Christians and
fundamentalist Atheists.

The form of your question also assumes that the entire bible must
either be understood literally or not. However, biblical
interpretation has always been an issue of which parts warrant literal
interpretation, which allegorical, and which metaphorical.

I can sympathize with Claudia's situation; violence and aggression are
frightening and unwelcome (to say nothing of the noise!). I'm not sure
that religion is to blame or really has that much to do with it though
. Real religion always encourages a deep and thoughtful
self-questioning with regard to one's outlook and motives while always
maintaining a deep concern and respect for others and their worldview.

Fundamentalism as it has come to be known, is not, I think, a
religious issue as much as it is an issue of basic human fear: the
fear of change. When things are changing, when the world doesn't suit
us, when we no longer see our personal values reflected in our
environment, we become frightened and the usual response is to lash
out and try to force the world back into our view of how it should be.
To accomplish this people may use religion ("fundamentalism"), or
politics (tea party?), or education (ivory towers), or any number of
other ways.

So I don't really think it is a religious issue as much as just a
human one. But I think real religion actually helps us here with the
thoughtful re-assessment of our prejudice. For the truly religious,
the world, the people in it, and it's constant change are
opportunities for growth and care of our fellows. Force and violence
are not something which can ever be condoned. It's only when religion
is hijacked by basic human fears that "religion" condones violence and
oppression.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] They Too Died That Day

[Michael Smith]

Apparantly Hermann Goering claimed that it was very easy to control
the public (and he should know)...just call a person unpatriotic.
It still works today. Just call people who differ in opinion racist,
or islamohphobic or homophobic, and there you go--you have control.

I also think there could be much to worry about if a competing
ideology isn't afraid to use violent coercion and can use democracy to
vote in sympathetic leaders during its weak beginnings.

The fact that there has not been a vehement condemnation of terrorism
across the entire Muslim world and all of its leadership could be
telling.

Although, unlike James, I think the reason that Western society has
'evolved' beyond barbarism (at least institutionally) and enshrines
human rights and freedoms is not in spite of Christianity, but a major
part of that development is because of it.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Psychology Department Advisory Boards

[Michael Smith]

It would seem that an "advisory board" is to take those traditionally
faculty concerns (priorities, planning, curriculum, etc.) out of
faculty hands and put it more into the hands of administration. In
other words, a further disempowering of faculty and imbuing
administration with greater control--one of the primary goals of any
administration. With the advisory board answering directly and only to
administration, faculty can finally be slowly eased out of the loop.

All the administration needs and wants are instructors to deliver the
"product" to the "customer" and to ensure the "customer" is happy
(retention). With an advisory board, administration needn't have those
endless meetings and debates about the value of higher education or
what higher education should be doing or the direction it should be
going. Noel-Levitz and the numbers will drive the direction and make
the decisions thank you very much. No faculty need apply.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] They Too Died That Day

[Michael Smith]

Perhaps psychologists should say that a lasting emotional reaction to
serious tradgedy isn't madness nor islamophobia,
and that the tough "SHOULD be open minded" Americans need to be
treated with care and respect also. Perhaps, as some have suggested,
it's too soon, and/or the location should be other than particularly
close to ground zero.

--Mike

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Paul Brandon  wrote:
>
>
> And of course there have been protests of mosques in cities far from New
> York.
> And it's hard to see how a Pastor in rural Florida could be afraid of an
> Islamic center in NYC.
> Paul Brandon
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology
> Minnesota State University, Mankato
> paul.bran...@mnsu.edu
> On Sep 11, 2010, at 7:11 AM, Beth Benoit wrote:
>
>
> Which, of course, would be neither at Ground Zero nor is it a mosque.  But
> the loudest protesters seem to have overlooked that.  Go figure...
> Beth Benoit
> Granite State College
> Plymouth State University
> New Hampshire
>
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 4:31 AM, Helweg-Larsen, Marie
>  wrote:
>>
>> It seems that there are lots of lessons/topics for a psychologist to
>> discuss in class with respect to the current 'islamaphobia'. Of course such
>> a discussion could be structured around social psychological work on
>> prejudice and discrimination but also emotions in general. This author
>> suggests that fear and not prejudice is the cause of opposition to the
>> Not-at-Ground-Zero Mosque.
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/opinion/05kristof.html?src=me&ref=general
>
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Re: [tips] magic/perception issue

[Michael Smith]

Actually, I don't think psychologists are any better at figuring out
magic tricks than anyone else.
That's why Randi (and not a psychologist) found a new job.

Of course, the false bottom explanation doesn't require a psychologist
and is pretty much everyone's first guess.
The 'fun' of it (if you think trying to figure it out is fun) comes
when you try to account for the details.

For example, in the lady with the tiger, when he does the 360
walkaround you can see the bottom floor of the cabinet (by the
wheels), which gives a nice see through illusion (or are you really
seeing through it?).

Can a tiger actually fit in the space below the lady's feet? If so,
where are the air-holes hidden?
How exactly does one get a tiger to "pop out"?
If the tiger is in the hollow below the floor, how do you get a flat
floor again after the tiger "pops out"?
If the woman can 'scoot' out the back, why not just open the back door
and have someone bring the tiger in at the same time?
It's unusual for someone to wear a jacket and yet have nothing in the
pockets. Was the returned jacket (or the one he was wearing) a
duplicate?

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Velcro Parents

[Michael Smith]

Perhaps they should provide special rooms where mom can breast feed
her precious one last time.

Maybe it's actually a new stage of development.
Instead of child, adolescent, emerging adulthood, adulthood, and old age
we could have:
childhood, extended childhood, childhood undocking (may take 2-5
years), emerging adulthood.

--Mike

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Mike Palij  wrote:
> The NY Times has an article on the parents of students who
> are moving into dorms right now.  While "helicoptor parents"
> hover over their students, "velcro parents" seem to be unable
> to unattach themselves from their children and a number of
> colleges now have put into place activities and programs for
> parents who never can say goodbye.  For the article, see:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/education/23college.html?_r=1&th&emc=th
>
> Quoting from the article:
>
> |Moving their students in usually takes a few hours. Moving on?
> |Most deans can tell stories of parents who lingered around campus
> |for days. At Colgate University in Hamilton, N.Y., a mother and
> |father once went to their daughter’s classes on the first day of the
> |semester and trouped to the registrar’s office to change her schedule,
> |recalled Beverly Low, the dean of first-year students.
>
> Have any Tipsters had parents sit in on their class on the first day
> (or first few days)?  I think that I had that happen once long ago.
>
> And:
>
> |Some undergraduate officials see in parents’ separation anxieties
> |evidence of the excesses of modern child-rearing. “A good deal
> |of it has to do with the evolution of overinvolvement in our students’
> |lives,” said Mr. Dougharty of Grinnell. “These are the baby-on-board
> |parents, highly invested in their students’ success. They do a lot of
> |living vicariously, and this is one manifestation of that.”
>
> Does anyone's school run workshops on "Parents' Seperation Anxiety"?
>
> Finally, this phenomenon, it seems to me, to be peculiar to certain
> social classes in the U.S.  I doubt that one sees much of this kind of
> behavior at commuter colleges (though I admit to having seen something
> comparable at one school).  I haven't had this happen in any of the
> classes that I have taught for "adults" (i.e., people who have went into
> the workforce after high school and have returned to college, often
> after many years).
>
> Has anyone seen this for students in graduate programs?
>
> -Mike Palij
> New York University
> m...@nyu.edu
>
>
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Re: [tips] Warning: Rant: $180!!!!!

[Michael Smith]

Yes I think textbook costs for psychology are ridiculous. I suppose
the publishers are cashing in on the popularity of psychology
It must be all those chapter technologies for enhanced learning. Only
for visual learners though :-)

It might be helpful if people posted specifically which textbooks cost
so much (name and publisher) and perhaps some cheaper alternatives
they have found.

Perhaps a longer term solution of changing this would be to have
textbooks (including an electronic version) produced by faculty
themselves and produced for as near peanuts as possible (and faculty
would still make some money even)...paperback, cheap paper, etc. And
instead of all the chapter technologies, just have wide margins for
students to take their own notes. Imagine what would have happened to
Harry Potter had Snape not had enough room to write his notes in his
potions book!

Another option might be for faculty to produce very comprehensive
power point files for sharing free of any cost (or a minimal fee while
keeping all the copyright notices to a minimum: preferably one at the
end in small print) to replace a text book. These could have a lot of
notes on them for students to read (and print if desired). The
end-using professor could cut and paste the presentations at will to
customize them and it saves the prof from making them from scratch. Of
course, they would cover a typical chapter in a book.

Both of the above alternatives would be distributed to any prof that
wants them and of course the instructor using them can enhance their
coverage with a few journal articles if desired...although that costs
money for subscriptions etc. So, better yet would be for faculty to
write summaries of articles in student friendly language and make
these available (essentially "the text book" above). If these
alternatives were co-ordinated across multiple university faculties
then the burden on any one faculty member wouldn't be too bad.
Professor Emeriti could leave that legacy of a lifetime of teaching,
writing, and collecting :-)

Sorry for the length of that...must be because it's Sunday morning!

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Critical Thinking And Ethics: The Pat Tilman Case

[Michael Smith]

> P.S. I can't believe I'm having this argument with a Canadian.
Well, I'm not really having an argument eh...it's often pretty funny
reading your responses...

but I'll try to cut it down...

really.

-- (still laughing) Mike

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Re: [tips] Critical Thinking And Ethics: The Pat Tilman Case

[Michael Smith]

>When information about a war comes from a government eager to promote and 
>justify it, how can we know which parts to believe >and which to reject as 
>propaganda?...An avowed atheist...opposed the war in Iraq after serving a tour 
>of duty there.

How does one know whether it is the first Tillman story or the second
one that is correct?
Indeed, it's the second story that was made up by dissidents within
the government and armed forces who want to embarass the government
and the armed forces (but still want to be payed of course) and want
to pretend that atheists are somehow peace loving people.

The NY Times "review" is obviously bogus and highly biased...oh
wait...It's the NY Times. It must be the truth.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] APA Con San Diego: College Students With More Psychopathology

[Michael Smith]

Oh for crying out loud...it's like dealing with children.

I for sure didn't think I had to make a point of the "accident
scenario" of which EVERYONE is aware hence my not mentioning it.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] APA Con San Diego: College Students With More Psychopathology

[Michael Smith]

Yes, I expected an emotionally based reaction to my "Quite simply,
it's impossible that a physical disability can be the cause of any
form of crime for example (murder, rape, robbery, etc.), but a mental
disability very easily could be."

To clarify: It is logically impossible for a physical disability (e.g.
a limp) to be the cause of a crime, but this is not the case with a
mental disability.

Given this difference, my supposition was that it isn't very
reasonable to expect people to view both mental and physical
disabilities as the same and it is eminently understandable that the
public would have different attitudes towards them. Now I know that
this isn't the accepted politically correct statement, but
nevertheless, it is a correct statement.

Now note gentlemen that this has nothing to do with which laws are or
could be enacted, or of being Canadian or American, or of being a
clinical psychologist, or of teaching at a small college rather than a
large one, or of any other of the irrelevances brought up. Indeed,
rather than being the domain of small colleges (as postulated by Mike
P.), any law, decision, or rule enacted to entitle such people to
whatever it is that they are to be entitled to, is by it's nature
arbitrary.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] APA Con San Diego: College Students With More Psychopathology

[Michael Smith]

Well, I suppose it's similar to requiring a doctor's note to miss an
exam...that is, we have the right to ask for that condition to be met
since the result of not taking the medication is intolerable for the
classroom experience of everyone else that's paying to be there.

Given that instructors can be let go because of budget constraints I
don't think it's unreasonable to curtail expenses for people who need
more help. I remember seeing one student at a large university with 4
school-paid attendants present to ensure the student could be in the
class. I think this kind of "accommodation" is too much for physical
and/or mental issues, and of course where do you draw the line?

Bob Wildblood said:
"I'm also surprised that some people believe that psychological
disabilities should be look at any differently than physical
difficulties."

Actually, I'm surprised that people think they shouldn't be.
I think the belief that they shouldn't be is merely a result of the
politically correct movement. Mental illness IS fundamentally
different than physical illness. (Physical illness being in the body
as I assume Bob means here and what the public would mean (being in a
wheelchair, having a limp, etc). Not the "informed" person'sa
brain tumor pressing on the brain causing the person to fly into a
murderous rage...yada yada yada).

Quite simply, it's impossible that a physical disability can be the
cause of any form of crime for example (murder, rape, robbery, etc.),
but a mental disability very easily could be.

The public quite rightly considers the two fundamentally different.

--Mike

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Re: [tips] APA Con San Diego: College Students With More Psychopathology

[Michael Smith]

For me, this brings up the question of whether "clinically disturbed"
individuals should be attending college.

Should the professoriate be required (i.e. forced) to deal with
disturbed individuals in a classroom setting if the probability of
behavioral problems is increased?  Are they trained to do so?

After all, the classroom isn't (and shouldn't) be a group therapy
center or a social center where people can waste their time because
they don't know what else to do with their life and/or they get warm
fuzzy social "belongingness" with their peer group (i.e. babysitting).

--Mike

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[tips] Modern society...ah!

[Michael Smith]

"When adult children fail, parents suffer too"
(http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/08/12/adult.children.struggle/index.html?hpt=T2)

Here's a wee quote from the article at the end...
"The study findings may be explained in part by the changing structure
of American families, Bernstein suggests. "To the extent that the
extended family has disappeared and everyone is living fragmented
lives..."

I thought the fragmented lives part (if true) was interesting.

Things just keep getting better!

--Mike

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Re: [tips] Re:We are no.12 (Depending Upon How Count Things)

[Michael Smith]

"American students are pre-occupied with media and technological crap
and tacky inventions. Let us bring back the slide rule."

I'd love to have a slide rule...but failing that you can use a virtual one :)

(http://www.taswegian.com/TwoHeaded/UniVirtual/UniVirtual.html)

--Mike

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:47 AM, michael sylvester
 wrote:
>
>
> Yeah! what is past is past.More people may be going to college today
> but the reality is that only 40% are graduating.We were once numero uno but
> now we are number 12.I agree that the U.S may have the highest number of
> people going to college but tey are not graduating.
> There could be many reasons for this: some people should never go to
> college,high schools are the culprits for poor preparations.profs are not
> doing a good job in motivating students to stay and graduate from
> college,American students are pre-occupied with media and technological crap
> and tacky inventions.Let us bring back the slide rule.
>
> Michael "omnicentric" Sylvester,PhD
> Daytona Beach,Florida
>
> ---
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Re: [tips] Reminder of This Day In History: Hiroshima

[Michael Smith]

I think everyone agrees that war is horrible...and yet as long as
competitive sports are with us so will be war.

--Mike

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Mike Palij  wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Aug 2010 06:39:18 -0700, Louis E. Schmier wrote:
>>No real debate on the use of the bomb except in the minds of the later
>>generations of Monday quarterbacks, "do gooders," PCer, and anti-nuc people.
>
> Well, as indicated in the Wall Street Journal article, it appears that
> a number of Japanese people take issue with it.  I think that Louis
> expresses a somewhat U.S. (perhaps American-British-Canadian-Aussie)
> perspective but I think that the people of a number of countries,
> from Asian to European and elsewhere may not.  But this only leads
> to the "game" of who has the longer list of atrocities and greivances
> while missing the point the point that war, in general, is a pretty horrible
> thing.
>
> -Mike Palij
> New York University
> m...@nyu.edu
>
>
>
>
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Re: [tips] DSM and grieving

[Michael Smith]

Yesthe worst nightmareand unimaginable grief which I'm so
sorry to hear is in your life.

My personal opinion is that there is such a thing as emotional trauma
which never heals in the same way that there can be physical damage
that never heals, such as a permanent limp. The damage and the pain
never totally go away. It can't be healed, so people must learn to
live and cope with it.

--Mike


On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Joann Jelly  wrote:
> Having lost two young adult sons through acccidents and researching parental  
> bereavement for my dissertation, I would like to make a few points, not 
> necessarily related to the DSM-4 or 5. Perhaps I should have done so early in 
> the discussion, yet some 30 plus years later, the situations/topics are 
> difficult to discuss.
>
> Many (how many) bereaved parents in my research groups mentioned they were 
> sad and pointedly said they were not depressed and wanted that point to be 
> understood.
>
> Isolation:  bereaved parents are living most parents worst nightmare and know 
> it and are isolated by others similar to widows in a social group.  When we 
> are in a group who know our children and talk about our children who are 
> dead, silence descends, (denial of death by most of us?) and so we don't.
>
> The experience of bereavement of children (or anyone really close) is very 
> individual and yet some patterns of similarly are evident.  "Confusion re 
> one's role and diminished sense of self," seems to be expressed in different 
> ways and many bereaved parents find that we "redesign" our lives.  
> Personally, I returned to school, attained a doctorate and still (STILL) am 
> teaching in a community college;  I love being with our students and 
> interacting with their life stress situations.   I did find comfort and 
> affilition in The Compassional Friends a national parental bereavement 
> "self-help" group and I lead group meetings and performed much of my research 
> for the dissertation through this group.
>
> Just thought I would throw my experience in the discussion, hope it helps.
>
> Joann Jelly,
> Psychology Instructor
> Barstow Community College
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: Michael Smith [mailto:tipsl...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wed 8/4/2010 7:47 PM
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: Re: [tips] DSM and grieving
>
>
>
> Thank you Scott for the info which directly applies to the article
>
> Being a popular article I wasn't taking it too seriously :-)
>
> --Mike
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Lilienfeld, Scott O  wrote:
>> Hi All - I've been following the discussion of pathological grief with some 
>> interest, and TIPSTERS have raised some useful points.  I am by no means an 
>> apologist for DSM-IV or V (in fact, have criticized both) and don't have a 
>> good enough handle on the recent research literature to evaluate many of the 
>> claims re: the proposal for pathological grief disorder (PGS).  
>> Nevertheless, when discussing these claims, it's crucial to understand that 
>> the draft criteria are much more stringent (e.g., they don't imply that a 
>> diagnosis can be made in 2 weeks) than implied in some recent TIPS messages.
>>
>>   Below are the draft criteria for DSM-V (or now DSM-5, as it seems to be 
>> abbreviated increasingly).  Note in particular Criterion D (Timing) below. 
>> Again, many interesting and troubling questions can be raised about these 
>> draft criteria; but they certainly don't imply that anyone grieving over the 
>> loss of a loved one (and yes, I've been there too), even for a couple of 
>> months, will receive diagnoses of a mental disorder in DSM-5.  Perhaps other 
>> draft criteria for PGS are floating around too, but if so, I'm not aware of 
>> them.
>>
>>
>>  ..Scott
>>
>> __
>> Table 3. Criteria for PGD proposed for DSM-V and ICD-11.
>>
>> Category Definition
>>
>> A. Event: Bereavement (loss of a significant other)
>> B. Separation distress: The bereaved person experiences yearning (e.g., 
>> craving, pining, or longing for the deceased; physical or emotional 
>> suffering as
>> a result of the desired, but unfulfilled, reunion with the deceased) daily 
>> or to a disabling degree.
>> C. Cognitive, emotional, and behavioral symptoms: The bereaved person must 
>> have five (or more) of the following symptoms experienced daily or to
>> a disabling degree:
>> 1. Confusion about one's role in life or diminished sense

Re: [tips] DSM and grieving

[Michael Smith]

> "Perhaps this is a teachable moment."

But then again, perhaps not.

What I try to do with a popular article is view it as an ordinary
person who came across it might---I do not assume it is directed at
the academic community (that's what peer-reviewed journals are for).
And I assume that this average reader will not conduct additional
research and that he or she has no specific background with regard to
what the article comments on. I think that this is a good way to read
a popular article as it will give insight as to what the average
person might take away from the article, and help highlight what is
wrong with the article's presentation (for possible use in the
classroom). That is the way I read popular articles.

Yes the article mentions the committee but given that the main
spokesperson for the position in the article is Kendler, (and given
"For Kendler, there is a clear, bright line between normal grief and
clinical depression") then it wouldn't be too out of line to think
that he had a major influence on the decision--perhaps he is the chair
or head of the committee (something the average person would probably
know about the structure of a committee), and could press his opinion
forward.

In my view, Scott supplied information directly relevent to what the
article was about. And this kind of information could easily have been
included in the article to make it a more balanced presentation that
the average reader would benefit from--if indeed the primary goal of
the article was to inform, which I doubt and that is what I intended
to highlight.

However, the information that you (Mike P) supplied, while perhaps
interesting, had little to nothing to do with the actual article (in
my opinion).

--Mike

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Re: [tips] DSM and grieving

[Michael Smith]

Thank you Scott for the info which directly applies to the article

Being a popular article I wasn't taking it too seriously :-)

--Mike


On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Lilienfeld, Scott O  wrote:
> Hi All - I've been following the discussion of pathological grief with some 
> interest, and TIPSTERS have raised some useful points.  I am by no means an 
> apologist for DSM-IV or V (in fact, have criticized both) and don't have a 
> good enough handle on the recent research literature to evaluate many of the 
> claims re: the proposal for pathological grief disorder (PGS).  Nevertheless, 
> when discussing these claims, it's crucial to understand that the draft 
> criteria are much more stringent (e.g., they don't imply that a diagnosis can 
> be made in 2 weeks) than implied in some recent TIPS messages.
>
>   Below are the draft criteria for DSM-V (or now DSM-5, as it seems to be 
> abbreviated increasingly).  Note in particular Criterion D (Timing) below. 
> Again, many interesting and troubling questions can be raised about these 
> draft criteria; but they certainly don't imply that anyone grieving over the 
> loss of a loved one (and yes, I've been there too), even for a couple of 
> months, will receive diagnoses of a mental disorder in DSM-5.  Perhaps other 
> draft criteria for PGS are floating around too, but if so, I'm not aware of 
> them.
>
>
>  ..Scott
>
> __
> Table 3. Criteria for PGD proposed for DSM-V and ICD-11.
>
> Category Definition
>
> A. Event: Bereavement (loss of a significant other)
> B. Separation distress: The bereaved person experiences yearning (e.g., 
> craving, pining, or longing for the deceased; physical or emotional suffering 
> as
> a result of the desired, but unfulfilled, reunion with the deceased) daily or 
> to a disabling degree.
> C. Cognitive, emotional, and behavioral symptoms: The bereaved person must 
> have five (or more) of the following symptoms experienced daily or to
> a disabling degree:
> 1. Confusion about one's role in life or diminished sense of self (i.e., 
> feeling that a part of oneself has died)
> 2. Difficulty accepting the loss
> 3. Avoidance of reminders of the reality of the loss
> 4. Inability to trust others since the loss
> 5. Bitterness or anger related to the loss
> 6. Difficulty moving on with life (e.g., making new friends, pursuing 
> interests)
> 7. Numbness (absence of emotion) since the loss
> 8. Feeling that life is unfulfilling, empty, or meaningless since the loss
> 9. Feeling stunned, dazed or shocked by the loss
> D. Timing: Diagnosis should not be made until at least six months have 
> elapsed since the death.
> E. Impairment: The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in 
> social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (e.g., domestic
> responsibilities).
> F. Relation to other mental disorders: The disturbance is not better 
> accounted for by major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, or
> posttraumatic stress disorder.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Smith [mailto:tipsl...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 11:33 AM
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: Re: [tips] DSM and grieving
>
> I think the main point of the article is that the bereavement
> exclusion was dropped and an additional point is that this is the
> result of one person's decision...gives one such faith in the
> scientific process.
>
> To the effect that, if you grieve longer than 2 weeks, regardless of
> the cause, then you should be treated as you now have a mental
> illness.
>
> Most ordinary people will rightly consider this a ridiculous statement.
>
> --Mike
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Mike Palij  wrote:
>> My reaction to the article is somewhat different from that of Nancy's.
>> I can understand her reaction but as someone who's had his own
>> share of bereavement, I would say that some people are able to
>> get through the grieving process in a "reasonable" amount of time
>> and others have great difficulty in doing so and may require assistance
>> in getting through the process.  The loss of a spouse, in contrast
>> to the loss of a child, is a far more common event but it is recognized
>> as a potentially risky situation for the surviving spouse because of
>> the increased risk of that spouse's death, something referred to at
>> the "widowhood effect".  One review of the widowhood effect provides
>> three general explanations for thie effect: (a) the death of a spouse
>> directly causes th

Re: [tips] DSM and grieving

[Michael Smith]

I think the main point of the article is that the bereavement
exclusion was dropped and an additional point is that this is the
result of one person's decision...gives one such faith in the
scientific process.

To the effect that, if you grieve longer than 2 weeks, regardless of
the cause, then you should be treated as you now have a mental
illness.

Most ordinary people will rightly consider this a ridiculous statement.

--Mike



On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Mike Palij  wrote:
> My reaction to the article is somewhat different from that of Nancy's.
> I can understand her reaction but as someone who's had his own
> share of bereavement, I would say that some people are able to
> get through the grieving process in a "reasonable" amount of time
> and others have great difficulty in doing so and may require assistance
> in getting through the process.  The loss of a spouse, in contrast
> to the loss of a child, is a far more common event but it is recognized
> as a potentially risky situation for the surviving spouse because of
> the increased risk of that spouse's death, something referred to at
> the "widowhood effect".  One review of the widowhood effect provides
> three general explanations for thie effect: (a) the death of a spouse
> directly causes the death of the surviving spouse through some
> process/mechanism, (b) "Homogamy", that is, husbands and wives
> are similar in many respects and one should expect a correlation
> between the time of death of one spouse and another, and (c) members
> of a couple are exposed to many of the same environmental variables
> which may cause the non-simulatneous death of both).  More info
> can be obtained from a review by Elwert & Cristakis in their 2008
> review article in the journal Demography which is available here:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2789302/
>
> I admit to being surprised at people who are able to "snap back" after
> the death of a spouse and re-marry within a year a two -- I simply
> do not understand it.  Similarly, the loss of a child, the loss of a parent,
> the loss of a close friend, the loss of a loved one, the loss of someone
> who had substantial meaning to one, all of these will be handled differently
> by different people.  Some will get over the loss though it may take years,
> while some may never be able to get over the loss though, perhaps, the pain
> of the loss might be mitigated with passage of time.  For this latter group,
> I think some form of psychotherapy may be appropriate in helping to
> process the loss, appreciate the significance of the loss, and to develop
> the rationale why one needs to move on.
>
> Just a couple of points more:
>
> (1)  The widowhood effect varies by race.  I'll leave it up to the reader to
> speculate what is the form of this interaction.  Then go and read this:
> http://asr.sagepub.com/content/71/1/16.abstract
>
> (2)  Severe bereavement effects have been seen with animals.  The
> example that stands out in my memory is from the National Geographic's
> PBS special on Jane Goodall in which the male Flint, who had problems
> been weaned from his mother Flo, died shortly after her death, apparently
> from depression and grief; see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_chimpanzee_community#Flint
> I recommend watching the original documentary "Among the Wild
> Chimpanzees" to fully appreciate what happened.
>
> My own opinion is that pharamacotherapy is probably not very useful
> in this situation though for some it may provide some temporary relief.
> Losing a loved one under traumatic situations (e.g., watching them die
> in front of you) can also lead to PTSD which would have be dealt with
> seperate from the effects of grieving.
>
> -Mike Palij
> New York University
> m...@nyu.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 12:14:09 -0700, Dr. Nancy Melucci wrote:
>>I just read the story. It is even more outrageous when they suggest
>>that the grieving for the loss of a child - the worst possible lost, made
>>even harder in modern times when so few of us experience it (so
>>more isolating than ever in an already death denying culture) - is
>>more like a treatable illness than a normal reaction.
>>
>>Two modern cultural themes emerge of course - fear of being sued
>>("I'd rather call it depression...") and of course the gigantic gold mine
>>that labeling more and more of the colorful, unsettling and some times
>>deeply painful emotional states that comprise a full life has become to
>>psychiatry and the pharmaceutical industry.
>>
>>I have become more and more comfortable in my lectures criticizing
>>the unscientific and shoddy construction of the DSM. And teaching
>>the views of Szasz as serious insights and not the rantings of a fringe
>>dweller.
>>
>>When we are happy all the time, no one will be happy anymore.
>>
>>Nancy Melucci
>>Long Beach City Colleg
>>Long Beach CA
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Dennis Goff 
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) 
> Sent: T