Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
What about using a lead pipe with soldered lead discs for cylinder ends for the reactor? The H2 inlet could be 1/8 NPT pipe thread cut into one of the disc ends. Then you get the rad shielding and heat transfer in one structure. Might have to turn the H2 with an elbow and hang more lead over that end to shield the hole. Could load the powder through the pipe thread hole. Solder the lead reactor cylinder into the side arm of a Cu plumbing elbow so it hangs in the water flow. If this thing is actually working at 60 - 100 C., then solder should hold. J Caplan - Original Message - From: Dennis To: Jay Caplan Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper yes, if you follow the leads from the red cable you will find it goes to two wires - It looks like the heater is a band heater at 230V 320W likely a SEIWA It looks like that from the markings and it would fit the numbers. It sure looks like a conventional band heater and totally outside of the water piping. Dennis C
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
From: Jay Caplan Hi Jay, * * If this thing is actually working at 60 - 100 C., then solder should hold. It is running much hotter than that. There is plenty of evidence that he could be using high temperature (hard or silver) brazing. Wide lap joints and the 'crud' on the outside could be his flux residue. This is the cheap way to go, and if you are making 1000 reactors, as he claims - using copper and common plumbing fixtures - instead of lab quality - has saved him over a million at the start. This would be another good reason why he has to control against runaway heating - since those joints are no good above about 500 C even with the best silver brazing. This technique does not work with stainless, which reinforces my original conclusion that there is NO inner reactor. Another red herring. He is going cheap, cheap, and cheaper. And the copper residue on the nickel is the lucky break that makes it all happen. (at least in today's version of the ongoing saga). - Original Message - * It sure looks like a conventional band heater and totally outside of the water piping. Dennis Hi Dennis, This is another reason why there is probably NO water jacket, and consequently there is no inner SS cylinder to hold the powder. That would cost too much. What you see is what you got. This is an el-cheapo copper or bronze reactor, fitted with heater bands on the outside, and with an axial cooling pipe going through the center of the reactor. Stainless conducts heat so poorly that it would be a terrible choice for any reactor which is completely controlled by temperature. ERGO: When temperature control is the number one concern, and trying to heat the powder *through the coolant* and then through a stainless inner reactor is impossible, you find a simpler way to do it. This design is beyond simple, almost high-schoolish, and Rossi must be a proponent of KISS. You have to be, if you are making 1000 iterations, even if the correct translation of 1000 is several dozen. In short, Rossi controls temperature by balancing a high-flow of coolant through a central cooling pipe made of copper, which is the source of the beneficial contamination on the nickel - and the heater bands are on the outside of the copper (bronze) reactor. (at least in today's version of the ongoing saga, which may change when someone has a better take on it). Jones
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
From Robin, ... Regarding the hydrino theory, my first impression would be to conclude (with absolutely no math to back this conclusion up with) that not enough hydrogen was consumed (into hydrinos) that would explain the massive amount of heat recorded. I hope someone can clarify whether my uneducated assumption on this point is valid or not. (I suspect it's incorrect.) The maximum amount of energy obtainable from Hydrino formation is, not coincidentally, exactly half the mass energy of an electron, i.e. 255 keV/H atom. Maximally shrinking 0.11 gm of H2 would therefore yield 752 kWh of energy, about ~30 times what was actually measured. Furthermore the calculation of the amount of Hydrogen measured assumes that none was absorbed by the Ni during filling of the reactor, which probably isn't true. IOW there may actually have been more than 0.11 gm of H present in the reactor. Woah! ...~30 times what was measured. Did I read that correctly? You're theorizing that hydrino formation can't be entirely ruled out as the source of the heat? I seem to recall that might contradict something Jones theorized in a previous post? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Doesn't the heater surround the copper tubing, and the red power cable attach to the heater? Can't see how the cable would pass through the copper tubing, as the heater is on the outside of the tubing. J Caplan - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper In the Essen report, Fig. 3, you see the hydrogen pipe at the top of the cell, and the power lead for the resistance heater at the bottom (the red wire). I am assuming both of pass through the outer copper sleeve, and then into the inner cylindrical stainless steel container. Granted, that might be a little difficult. Water may leak from the pipe connection at the top. I think this would be easier than working with a torus shaped cell. (By the way, the hydrogen pipe would anchor the inside cell and hold it in the center of the copper outer shell.) The configuration I have in mind is similar to the way the anode and cathode lead wires reach the cell in McKubre's labyrinth calorimeter. They go through the walls of the calorimeter at the top, and then continue through the cooling water envelope to the inner cylindrical chamber. See p. 6 here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHcoldfusion.pdf - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In reply to OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson's message of Thu, 7 Apr 2011 07:38:42 -0500: Hi, [snip] Maximally shrinking 0.11 gm of H2 would therefore yield 752 kWh of energy, about ~30 times what was actually measured. Furthermore the calculation of the amount of Hydrogen measured assumes that none was absorbed by the Ni during filling of the reactor, which probably isn't true. IOW there may actually have been more than 0.11 gm of H present in the reactor. Woah! ...~30 times what was measured. Did I read that correctly? Yes. You're theorizing that hydrino formation can't be entirely ruled out as the source of the heat? Not only can't it be ruled out, I think it is very likely the case given the magical level of 24. In fact I suspect the mechanism is as follows: A fast particle splits a Hydrino molecule into two Hydrinos. Since these are in intimate contact with metals, they rapidly each acquire a free electron forming Hy-. Each of these then eventually migrates to the surface of the metal where it reacts with a neutral Hydrogen atom (in the ground state; such as is likely to be found on the surface of Ni), expelling a fast electron as the Hydrino molecule is formed. (The electron that gets expelled is the ground state electron of the Hydrogen atom). Because the Hy- is small, heavy, and negatively charged, this process is analogous to the formation of muonic molecules from ordinary Hydrogen. The binding energy of a level 24 Hydrino with a proton is 8000 eV, so there is plenty of energy available to strip the electron from a Hydrogen atom (and send it on it's way with more than enough energy to split other Hydrino molecules). Because level 24 is the smallest Hydrino than can still form a Hydride, this mechanism though a very fast means of producing Hydrinos at level 24 can't produce Hydrinos any smaller than this. At level 24 the energy required to split a molecule is about 1.2 keV / Hydrino, while the energy obtained from creating a new Hydrino is about 8 keV). These two figures combined yield a ratio of about 7, which may explain why Rossi wants to configure his reactor with an amplification factor of about 8. ;) The fast amplification mechanism, combined with the restriction to level 24 ensure that eventually the vast majority of Hydrinos present are at this level. BTW at 8 keV / H, the oceans of the Earth would supply all our energy needs at the current rate of use for 263 billion years. :) (Perhaps needless to say, we will no longer be around to enjoy it, nor will the Earth itself, which is due to be vaporized by a red giant Sun in about 5 billion years time.) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
[Vo]:Re:[Vo]: Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Something very fishy-smelling here ... You DECREASE the volume by a factor of 20 and the heat only goes down by a factor of 3. And he is just noticing this! LOL. More Rossi BS - let's face it, this guy is deceptive, and could be delusional. He is trying to hide something by this kind of publicity stunt. It is pure 'misdirection'. There is no way to believe anything he says. But he is clever to handle it this way, since many who see this stunt will applaud him for what may seem to be a more open kind of show-and-tell. But the intent can only be to mislead other researchers who are scrambling to replicate the results. No way do you have a reverse economy-of-scale at this magnitude, and then do not follow up by going even smaller. No way do you do a public demo of a larger unit that is seven times less robust. Rossi is most likely showing off past things that did NOT work well, or at all - in order to protect the larger device that does work well. The large unit is the only one tested in public - and possibly the minimum size factor that works at all. But Rossi would like to encourage the hundred or so replication attempts which are in progress now - to go with the smaller size, since he knows that there is a critical mass threshold and they are doomed from the start if they go with the 50 cc. Jones -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com Looking at the pictures, it seems to be fairly simple mechanically. The chamber is 50cc and not 1 liter as we were made to believe. Two different devices. This 4 kW version has a 50 cc chamber. The original 10 kW version had a 1 L chamber.
[Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
-Original Message- From: SHIRAKAWA Akira Thank you for posting this but for the record, the conclusions of Kullander are wrong. Not just wrong but irresponsible and foolish. First he says: Analyses of the nickel powder used in Rossi's energy catalyzer show that a large amount of copper is formed. The Facts: There is evidence of the presence of copper but that is all. If it were formed by transmutation some of it should be radioactive. In fact there is a mundane explanation for the presence of copper. Sven Kullander considers this to be evidence of a nuclear reaction For copper to be formed out of nickel, the nucleus of nickel has to capture a proton. The fact that this possibly occurs in Rossi's reactor is why the concept of cold fusion has been mentioned - it would consist of fusion between nuclei of nickel and hydrogen. The facts: Yes but if this were the case there would be a wide variation in the balance of isotopes. Element and isotopic analysis showed that the isotopic analysis through ICP-MS doesn't show any deviation from the natural isotopic composition of nickel and copper. The mistakes of Kullander are juvenile and silly. There is a mundane explanation for both copper and iron so why invent a reaction that does not exist? Jones
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
From Jones: ... ... There is a mundane explanation for both copper and iron so why invent a reaction that does not exist? And that speculated mundane explanation is... Out with it! Hydrinos? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Passing to Kullander a well shaked mix of ni and cu powder ? Too easy ? Just mixing ni and cu powder and giving it to *Kullander for the * On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 2:41 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: From Jones: ... ... There is a mundane explanation for both copper and iron so why invent a reaction that does not exist? And that speculated mundane explanation is... Out with it! Hydrinos? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
The mundane reason for the appearance of iron an copper is electromigration. This is actually expected. Copper and iron are both found in the apparatus and they migrate to the powder. For it to be otherwise, an isotopic imbalance must be present. Even hydrinos would result in an isotopic imbalance. J. From: Andrea Selva Passing to Kullander a well shaked mix of ni and cu powder ? Too easy ? Just mixing ni and cu powder and giving it to Kullander ? Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: ... There is a mundane explanation for both copper and iron so why invent a reaction that does not exist? And that speculated mundane explanation is... Out with it! Hydrinos?
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On the pictures in the article: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3144960.ece/BINARY/Download+the+report+by+Kullander+and+Ess%C3%A9n+%28pdf%29 ) it is seen that the copper tubes are corroded from the outside , probably due to the high temperature of the reaction. As Jones says it is very likely that he copper (and steel) migrate from the outside to the nickelpowder which is inside of the reaction chamber. This would explain why a lot of Copper is found. I once noticed that when I was using a copper vessel which was plated with steel on the outside that the vessel got a copper coulor when it was accidentally heated to 300 C. The heat releasing reaction from the Ecat looks like the effect which is seen during the use of Raney nickel ( or TiC WC and other compounds) in combination with Mills catalysts and hydrogen. No transmutations are seen, only upfield shifted NMR peaks of the hydrogencompounds in the reactionproduct which have a very narrow resonance peak. This could indicate that these species have a low probablity to interact with the environment after being formed, which is not at odds with the hydrino concept. Peter van Noorden - Original Message - From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper -Original Message- From: SHIRAKAWA Akira Thank you for posting this but for the record, the conclusions of Kullander are wrong. Not just wrong but irresponsible and foolish. First he says: Analyses of the nickel powder used in Rossi's energy catalyzer show that a large amount of copper is formed. The Facts: There is evidence of the presence of copper but that is all. If it were formed by transmutation some of it should be radioactive. In fact there is a mundane explanation for the presence of copper. Sven Kullander considers this to be evidence of a nuclear reaction For copper to be formed out of nickel, the nucleus of nickel has to capture a proton. The fact that this possibly occurs in Rossi's reactor is why the concept of cold fusion has been mentioned - it would consist of fusion between nuclei of nickel and hydrogen. The facts: Yes but if this were the case there would be a wide variation in the balance of isotopes. Element and isotopic analysis showed that the isotopic analysis through ICP-MS doesn't show any deviation from the natural isotopic composition of nickel and copper. The mistakes of Kullander are juvenile and silly. There is a mundane explanation for both copper and iron so why invent a reaction that does not exist? Jones
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The mundane reason for the appearance of iron an copper is electromigration. Where are the electric fields that would cause electromigration? There are no fields in copper pipes as far as I know. Kullander does say . . . it’s remarkable that nickel-58 and hydrogen can form copper-63 (70%) and copper-65 (30%). I guess that means they measured the isotopes. They used XRFS and ICP-MS. XRFS measures only elements as I recall, whereas ICP-MS detects isotopes. It would be a little odd if the reaction produced copper with a natural isotopic distribution. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On 04/06/2011 08:20 AM, Jones Beene wrote: The Facts: There is evidence of the presence of copper but that is all. If it were formed by transmutation some of it should be radioactive. In fact there is a mundane explanation for the presence of copper Dead on. In fact, as I recall, folks on this list were waiting with bated breath for the isotopic analysis of the copper and nickel ash, which was expected to confirm that it's nuclear. Instead, it seems to have done the opposite. All speculation about the reaction taking place is now just that: Speculation. Looks to me like Ni+H fusion has been ruled out, even more conclusively than either unknown chemical reactions or galloping temperature measurement errors.
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
From Jones: The mundane reason for the appearance of iron an[d] copper is electromigration. Seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. I must apologize for not being sufficiently clear as to what I was really questioning: What is generating the massive amount of heat? I gather the responsible party still remains an unknown quality - especially considering your concluding remark: Even hydrinos would result in an isotopic imbalance. ...which also seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. Regarding the hydrino theory, my first impression would be to conclude (with absolutely no math to back this conclusion up with) that not enough hydrogen was consumed (into hydrinos) that would explain the massive amount of heat recorded. I hope someone can clarify whether my uneducated assumption on this point is valid or not. (I suspect it's incorrect.) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On 04/06/2011 10:23 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net mailto:jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The mundane reason for the appearance of iron an copper is electromigration. Where are the electric fields that would cause electromigration? There are no fields in copper pipes as far as I know. Kullander does say . . . it's remarkable that nickel-58 and hydrogen can form copper-63 (70%) and copper-65 (30%). I guess that means they measured the isotopes. He *said* they measured the isotopes. He said, specifically, the ratios for both nickel and copper didn't vary from natural abundances: The isotopic analysis through ICP-MS *doesn't show any deviation from the natural isotopic composition* of nickel and copper. They used XRFS and ICP-MS. XRFS measures only elements as I recall, whereas ICP-MS detects isotopes. It would be a little odd if the reaction produced copper with a natural isotopic distribution. That's a marvelous understatement! And don't forget that the nickel wasn't differentially depleted, either -- its ratios were natural, as well. It's more likely that Levi is in on the gag than that transmutation from nickel to copper produced natural isotope ratios in the ash. The former merely requires the assumption that a few humans are acting unusually stupid (which happens frequently). The latter requires something close to a miracle (and miracles are very rare). - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
One of the great things about this is that there is so much new information here, it is taking me all morning to read and understand the reports and photos. Usually, when I get a new paper, it is all stuff that I have heard before. It is either a re-hash of previous reports, or a repetition of previous work. Rossi is breaking new ground. There is an awful lot of important information in these reports. You have to dig a little to get it all. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote: He *said* they measured the isotopes. He said, specifically, the ratios for both nickel and copper didn't vary from natural abundances: The isotopic analysis through ICP-MS *doesn’t show any deviation from the natural isotopic composition* of nickel and copper. Ah, so he did. I just asked him about this. I wrote to him: It is surprising that the copper has the natural isotopic distribution, Cu-63 70%, Cu-65 30%. In other cold fusion experiments, when cathodes had what appear to be transmuted elements in them, the isotopic distribution reflected the distribution of the starting element. This is particularly clear in papers by Iwamura, such as: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYelementalaa.pdf; It would be a little odd if the reaction produced copper with a natural isotopic distribution. That's a marvelous understatement! My specialty -- thanks. And don't forget that the nickel wasn't differentially depleted, either -- its ratios were natural, as well. Could you detect that? Would enough of it be depleted to make a measurable difference? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
The energy release of the hydrino producing reaction is 50 MJ/mol hydrogen gas. The prefered reactionproduct seems to be H1/4. See http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/Eng%20Power050410S.pdf So if 25 kWh is produced (90 MJ) this should correspond to 1.8 moles of H2 gas = 3.6 grams. Peter van Noorden - Original Message - From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper From Jones: The mundane reason for the appearance of iron an[d] copper is electromigration. Seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. I must apologize for not being sufficiently clear as to what I was really questioning: What is generating the massive amount of heat? I gather the responsible party still remains an unknown quality - especially considering your concluding remark: Even hydrinos would result in an isotopic imbalance. ...which also seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. Regarding the hydrino theory, my first impression would be to conclude (with absolutely no math to back this conclusion up with) that not enough hydrogen was consumed (into hydrinos) that would explain the massive amount of heat recorded. I hope someone can clarify whether my uneducated assumption on this point is valid or not. (I suspect it's incorrect.) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
If the reactor vessel is stainless steel, is the Cu migrating through the walls of the vessel to contaminate the Ni? T
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
-Original Message- From: Steven V Johnson Regarding the hydrino theory, my first impression would be to conclude... that not enough hydrogen was consumed (into hydrinos) that would explain the massive amount of heat recorded. Right on! Steven. You get points for having been thinking about this closely, instead of buying into what others are trying to spoon-feed the audience - and you have seen the problem. This is a critical point. When you compare the amount of hydrogen lost compared to the energy released, it works out to something like 100 keV per proton (but that can vary depending on which Rossi quote you have) ... which is far less than the energy of fusion - at least 1-2 MeV per proton, if it were Ni-H fusion, and far more than Mills typical 27.2-54.4 eV. Now Robin will say this is somewhat consistent with nearly complete shrinkage down to the virtual neutron, but then you should see radioactivity. Not seen. Essentially this is why I concocted the 'quark power' concept presented recently. It is further afield from the mainstream than anything else out there, and admittedly it was invented to match the quirky results of Rossi, and that is its only redeeming value. In this hypothesis one would expect to see disappearing hydrogen with some thermal energy left in the reactor from quark reorganization (into strangelets or dark matter) ... and the remnant energy should be in this range, to be consistent with QCBE (i.e. the range of quantum chromodynamic binding energy) which would be left over from such a reaction. Jones
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Essentially this is why I concocted the 'quark power' concept presented recently. I don't think you can sell the quark power theory to Hawking. :-) T
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
From Stephen ... It's more likely that Levi is in on the gag than that transmutation from nickel to copper produced natural isotope ratios in the ash. The former merely requires the assumption that a few humans are acting unusually stupid (which happens frequently). The latter requires something close to a miracle (and miracles are very rare). Stephen, why is it that when expected results (such as in this latest case, the predicted isotopic shifts don't materialize the way we assume they should) the suspicion of fraud, misinterpretation of the data, and/or collusion once again become the most likely explanations for you. From what I have read there remains a lot of carefully measured heat that can't be explained chemically. Your apparent sudden capitulation would seem to imply that all that carefully measured heat must be fraudulent as well. I so, I suspect many would beg to differ with you on that point. Correct me if I have misinterpreted you, but associating theoretical expectations that suddenly don't pan out as a reason to suddenly invalidate the heat measurements, as you seem to be doing here, strikes me as a defensive tactic, to protect one's psyche from anticipated disappointment. For me, based on the fact that the heat measurements appear to be extremely accurate, the only logical conclusion that I can arrive it is the simple fact that we don't yet have a decent theory as to what is really happening. I can live with such mysteries... for now. A theoretical mystery... what fun! I can live with such mysteries because the heat measurements appear to be very accurate. For me, that's what's important. Fire... Good! Fire is your friend! Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Stephen, Urgent Addendum: Just to be clear on this point, my speculation was pertaining to whether you were now suspicious of the HEAT measurements. In truth I must admit the fact that you seem to be questioning the isotopic shifts, not the actual HEAT measurements. My apologies if I have misinterpreted your intentions. I often misinterpret. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
From: Stephen A. Lawrence * * Where are the electric fields that would cause electromigration? There are no fields in copper pipes as far as I know. In the photos I am looking at, from this page - one resistance heater labeled auxiliary goes directly into a copper pipe. You may need to blow up the image. Jones
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
-Original Message- From: Terry Blanton If the reactor vessel is stainless steel, is the Cu migrating through the walls of the vessel to contaminate the Ni? That is probably net necessary. It looks to me like a copper pipe, for heat transfer, may go into the reactor itself. Plus, if I am not mistaken the patent application says something similar. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
My guess is that the Aux is to pre heat the water flowing into the system and the other external clamp on heater is for control. Put those two seem to be the only external electrical connections (other than the thermocouples) Dennis C From: Jones Beene Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:41 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper From: Stephen A. Lawrence Ø Ø Where are the electric fields that would cause electromigration? There are no fields in copper pipes as far as I know. In the photos I am looking at, from this page - one resistance heater labeled auxiliary goes directly into a copper pipe. You may need to blow up the image. Jones
RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Jones, So what causes the electromigration? As far as I can see all he has in there are some resistive heaters. Ron --On Wednesday, April 06, 2011 6:15 AM -0700 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: To be clear: Yes the reaction is NOT chemical, but it is NOT the fusion of nickel and hydrogen. 1)The copper and iron are incidental, and come from electromigration. 2)The ash would be isotopically different otherwise, and radioactive. 3)Since it is not radioactive nor isotopically different, there is ZERO evidence of the fusion of nickel and hydrogen. Sherlock's default conclusion: There is another kind of reaction, either new physics nuclear or ZPE or Millsean with not deep shrinkage – no matter how improbable that may seem at first – which is responsible for the excess heat. Why? you ask: cannot the fusion of nickel and hydrogen be this same kind of new physics nuclear? Simple Watson, that involves two levels of new physics – not only a new non-radioactive reaction, but one with improbably long odds of matching precisely a natural balance, which BTW is probably a balance which is unique to our solar system. The odds of both happening are … shall we say: astronomical? If one wants to imagine the ludicrous proposition that some kind of new physics nuclear reaction can be so lucky as to match exactly an isotopic primordial balance of isotopes in two elements in one star out of trillions, be my guest … J. 25 kilowatt hours is 80 megajoules. That is over ten times the energy of any diesel fuel at 50ml. The energy prohibits a chemical source. From: jone...@pacbell.net -Original Message- From: SHIRAKAWA Akira Thank you for posting this but for the record, the conclusions of Kullander are wrong. Not just wrong but irresponsible and foolish. First he says: Analyses of the nickel powder used in Rossi's energy catalyzer show that a large amount of copper is formed. The Facts: There is evidence of the presence of copper but that is all. If it were formed by transmutation some of it should be radioactive. In fact there is a mundane explanation for the presence of copper. Sven Kullander considers this to be evidence of a nuclear reaction For copper to be formed out of nickel, the nucleus of nickel has to capture a proton. The fact that this possibly occurs in Rossi's reactor is why the concept of cold fusion has been mentioned - it would consist of fusion between nuclei of nickel and hydrogen. The facts: Yes but if this were the case there would be a wide variation in the balance of isotopes. Element and isotopic analysis showed that the isotopic analysis through ICP-MS doesn't show any deviation from the natural isotopic composition of nickel and copper. The mistakes of Kullander are juvenile and silly. There is a mundane explanation for both copper and iron so why invent a reaction that does not exist? Jones
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
From Jones From: Terry Blanton If the reactor vessel is stainless steel, is the Cu migrating through the walls of the vessel to contaminate the Ni? That is probably net necessary. It looks to me like a copper pipe, for heat transfer, may go into the reactor itself. Plus, if I am not mistaken the patent application says something similar. Makes me wonder if some other metal other than copper could be substituted, for testing purposes. Wouldn't that be reasonably easy to do? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
-Original Message- From: Ron Wormus So what causes the electromigration? As far as I can see all he has in there are some resistive heaters. Ron - Possibly it could be related to either low level magnetic fields or emf associated with the heaters, or else galvanic corrosion between the iron and copper. Some of those fittings look like cast iron. A cooper tube may actually run through the reactor itself - so there are many possibilities. Wow, gotta luv that the Rossi apparatus does work - apparently - but doesn't it just scream cheap? Off the rack at K-Mart cheap... Actually, that is one of the real beauties of it - to my warped mentality - getting the job done adequately with the least investment. And if he had used expensive stainless vacuum high-grade physics lab gear? - guess what, sport fans - It probably would not have worked ! Seriously, I would be willing to bet that the copper migration is what makes it work. No kidding. I cannot explain this stunning revelation now - until I get permission to forward the defining paper which tells-the-tale - but as of now, it appears that the case has been cracked, so to speak, and Pandora's secret is oozing out ... Clue: no, it's not the Colonel Mustard with the lead pipe - but the paper's lead researcher is a Polish alloy expert named Romanowski, and you want to look at Fig 9 on page 8 ... Stay tuned, Jones
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton If the reactor vessel is stainless steel, is the Cu migrating through the walls of the vessel to contaminate the Ni? That is probably net necessary. It looks to me like a copper pipe, for heat transfer, may go into the reactor itself. Plus, if I am not mistaken the patent application says something similar. You might be right; however, I see a stainless steel coupling and valve for H2 injection and the reactor vessel is stated to be SS. Granted there could be a Cu coupling in there somewhere; but, I'm in the stands, not on the play ground. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Jones sez: ... Wow, gotta luv that the Rossi apparatus does work - apparently - but doesn't it just scream cheap? Off the rack at K-Mart cheap... Heh! It will probably result in an extra month of delays over at DoE getting their s**t in gear... particularly if they deem to look at the latest photos. At first glance NOBODY in their right mind would logically conclude that Rossi's device could be legitimate. Looks more like a badly designed sump pump than an energy catalyzer. Actually, that is one of the real beauties of it - to my warped mentality - getting the job done adequately with the least investment. Indeed. And if he had used expensive stainless vacuum high-grade physics lab gear? - guess what, sport fans - It probably would not have worked ! Seriously, I would be willing to bet that the copper migration is what makes it work. No kidding. They should try stainless vacuum high-grade gear - sans copper too. See what happens! All bets are off! Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Jones, Yeah, I love that it looks like it could have been made in a garage of spare plumbing parts. It has a much less sophisticated geometry than I expected too; seems too simple even compared to the MAHG I started to replicate (it also had a copper vessel). Keeps life interesting; you are a much better speculator than I. Ron --On Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:55 AM -0700 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: -Original Message- From: Ron Wormus So what causes the electromigration? As far as I can see all he has in there are some resistive heaters. Ron - Possibly it could be related to either low level magnetic fields or emf associated with the heaters, or else galvanic corrosion between the iron and copper. Some of those fittings look like cast iron. A cooper tube may actually run through the reactor itself - so there are many possibilities. Wow, gotta luv that the Rossi apparatus does work - apparently - but doesn't it just scream cheap? Off the rack at K-Mart cheap... Actually, that is one of the real beauties of it - to my warped mentality - getting the job done adequately with the least investment. And if he had used expensive stainless vacuum high-grade physics lab gear? - guess what, sport fans - It probably would not have worked ! Seriously, I would be willing to bet that the copper migration is what makes it work. No kidding. I cannot explain this stunning revelation now - until I get permission to forward the defining paper which tells-the-tale - but as of now, it appears that the case has been cracked, so to speak, and Pandora's secret is oozing out ... Clue: no, it's not the Colonel Mustard with the lead pipe - but the paper's lead researcher is a Polish alloy expert named Romanowski, and you want to look at Fig 9 on page 8 ... Stay tuned, Jones
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On 2011-04-06 23:01, Alan J Fletcher wrote: prev=_thl=enie=UTF-8layout=2eotf=1sl=svtl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vof.se%2Findex.php Seems new to me. Proper link to the relevant bit: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ensl=svtl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vof.se%2Faktuellt.php%23notis472 Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Seems new to me. Proper link to the relevant bit: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ensl=svtl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vof.se%2Faktuellt.php%23notis472 Original article in Swedish: http://www.vof.se/aktuellt.php#notis472 - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
The first paragraph (Google translation) attacks Fleischmann and Pons, saying: No significant similarities with the Pons and Fleischmann flop of 1989 could be discerned. What a jerk! I would send him a nasty note saying he should read the literature, but I am trying to sweet talk him into giving me permission to upload the paper, so I better not. I hope he does't read this forum. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Clue: no, it's not the Colonel Mustard with the lead pipe - but the paper's lead researcher is a Polish alloy expert named Romanowski, and you want to look at Fig 9 on page 8 ... Jesus, Jones! F9P8 of which? This: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3144960.ece/BINARY/Download+the+report+by+Kullander+and+Ess%C3%A9n+%28pdf%29. ?? You can be such a PITA (but we luv ya anyway). T
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Indeed from the link provided Akira it says: The reactor itself, which is loaded with the nickel powder and secret catalysts pressurized with hydrogen, has an estimated volume of 50 cubic centimeters (3.2 cubic inches). The reactor is made of stainless steel. Harry - Original Message From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 10:53:18 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper If the reactor vessel is stainless steel, is the Cu migrating through the walls of the vessel to contaminate the Ni? T
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
the Cu would have to go through the water and then through the stainless steel to get to the powder. Dennis C -- From: Harry Veeder hlvee...@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 4:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper Indeed from the link provided Akira it says: The reactor itself, which is loaded with the nickel powder and secret catalysts pressurized with hydrogen, has an estimated volume of 50 cubic centimeters (3.2 cubic inches). The reactor is made of stainless steel. Harry - Original Message From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 10:53:18 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper If the reactor vessel is stainless steel, is the Cu migrating through the walls of the vessel to contaminate the Ni? T
RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
-Original Message- From: Terry Blanton Well. The one problem is that the paper is not accessible except by fee. Copyrights and all that. You can read the abstract http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/la981339q Romanowski is a nickel alloy expert. This finding is not new but was generally ignored - up to now. If I am not reading too much into it - it contains the exact information of how and why the Rossi reactor works as it does, and I doubt that Rossi himself is cognizant of this mechanism. It was found that the highest catalytic power with respect to the hydrogen dissociation process is exhibited by Ni-Cu alloys which are far better than palladium - a factor of 4 for instance! Fig 9 on page 8 of this paper is a measure of the catalytic power of these various alloys. This relates directly to spillover, IMHO, and it shows an alloy of about 2/3 copper and 1/3 nickel is by far the best spillover catalyst ever discovered - IF - it is not easily fouled. This alloy is similar (but not exact) to an alloy discovered in 1887 when one Edward Weston found that a few alloys can have a negative temperature coefficient of resistance. It was produced in Germany where it was named constantan. It also has excellent salt water resistance and maritime uses. One version is used in Seebeck calorimetry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantan In principle, a catalyst composed of a simple alloy which can in principle supply 3 eV equivalent to a hydrogen recycling process is almost unheard of. The problem is now to understand how this large energy deficit is replenished on a continuing basis. IN SHORT - the migratory copper itself appears to be the secret catalyst, but only after it alloys with the nickel to form this super catalytic alloy - which almost splits the hydrogen molecule on contact. Unbelievable ! If Rossi knows this, he is pulling a clever deception. If not, if means that what everyone already suspects is true: the guy just got extremely lucky, essentially by using copper plumbing in a situation where almost no one would think of using copper because of known problem of easy contamination... talk about turning a big problem into a 'feature' Jones
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: IN SHORT - the migratory copper itself appears to be the secret catalyst, but only after it alloys with the nickel to form this super catalytic alloy - which almost splits the hydrogen molecule on contact. Unbelievable ! Well, then, it can't be migratory unless Rossi conditions each ECat for a period of time to allow enough Cu to migrate into the reactor. So, the other explanation is he dopes the Ni with Cu, again not migratory. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: IN SHORT - the migratory copper itself appears to be the secret catalyst, but only after it alloys with the nickel to form this super catalytic alloy - which almost splits the hydrogen molecule on contact. Unbelievable ! Well, then, it can't be migratory unless Rossi conditions each ECat for a period of time to allow enough Cu to migrate into the reactor. So, the other explanation is he dopes the Ni with Cu, again not migratory. The paper is theoretical not experimental. It's only $35 for 48 hours of access. I guess I'll explore other documents before I log in. T
RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. Copper ions would immediately start to migrate when heat was applied to the outside of the reactor. Did you enlarge the pictures? There is lots of detail. The water has to go through the reactor, and the simplest way is a Cu pipe down the axis. Why is that problematic? The conditioning time could be a day or two - and this would be needed anyway. Arata, Kitamura, Takahashi all talk about conditioning the powder. Of course, Rossi might be trying to disguise the fact that he is 'seeding' the nickel from the start, in addition. -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton IN SHORT - the migratory copper itself appears to be the secret catalyst, but only after it alloys with the nickel to form this super catalytic alloy - which almost splits the hydrogen molecule on contact. Unbelievable ! Well, then, it can't be migratory unless Rossi conditions each ECat for a period of time to allow enough Cu to migrate into the reactor. So, the other explanation is he dopes the Ni with Cu, again not migratory. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. Copper ions would immediately start to migrate when heat was applied to the outside of the reactor. Did you enlarge the pictures? There is lots of detail. The water has to go through the reactor, and the simplest way is a Cu pipe down the axis. Why is that problematic? The conditioning time could be a day or two - and this would be needed anyway. Arata, Kitamura, Takahashi all talk about conditioning the powder. Of course, Rossi might be trying to disguise the fact that he is 'seeding' the nickel from the start, in addition. Because that is not what I envision. I envision a SS reactor vessel enclosed within a copper sphere attached to a copper pipe. The reactor vessel is suspended inside the copper and the water passes outside the SS reactor. Water does not enter the reactor vessel but passes around it. Otherwise, how do you maintain the H2 pressure? T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
that is also the way I see it. Otherwise you would need two copper components - inner Cu tube, stainless and then the outer Cu tube - A stainless reactor chamber inside a widen part of one copper component would be much easier to machine. Dennis C -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 5:37 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. Copper ions would immediately start to migrate when heat was applied to the outside of the reactor. Did you enlarge the pictures? There is lots of detail. The water has to go through the reactor, and the simplest way is a Cu pipe down the axis. Why is that problematic? The conditioning time could be a day or two - and this would be needed anyway. Arata, Kitamura, Takahashi all talk about conditioning the powder. Of course, Rossi might be trying to disguise the fact that he is 'seeding' the nickel from the start, in addition. Because that is not what I envision. I envision a SS reactor vessel enclosed within a copper sphere attached to a copper pipe. The reactor vessel is suspended inside the copper and the water passes outside the SS reactor. Water does not enter the reactor vessel but passes around it. Otherwise, how do you maintain the H2 pressure? T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Because that is not what I envision. I envision a SS reactor vessel enclosed within a copper sphere attached to a copper pipe. The reactor vessel is suspended inside the copper and the water passes outside the SS reactor. Water does not enter the reactor vessel but passes around it. Otherwise, how do you maintain the H2 pressure? For a 50 cc volume, the internal sphere would have a radius of about 1 inch (2.8 cm). The copper sphere looks to have a diameter of over 3 inches. I think it's a SS sphere suspended in a Cu sphere with a SS inlet brazed to the Cu sphere with water passing between the two. T
RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Has anyone seen such a sphere? Nothing seen by me indicates that level of sophistication. Small spheres are tricky to make and the outward of H2 pressure would possibly be more of a problem than a central tube. An axial copper tube, even having lost mass to migration, would withstand a fairly high external pressure, especially with pressurized water flowing through it. -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. Copper ions would immediately start to migrate when heat was applied to the outside of the reactor. Did you enlarge the pictures? There is lots of detail. The water has to go through the reactor, and the simplest way is a Cu pipe down the axis. Why is that problematic? The conditioning time could be a day or two - and this would be needed anyway. Arata, Kitamura, Takahashi all talk about conditioning the powder. Of course, Rossi might be trying to disguise the fact that he is 'seeding' the nickel from the start, in addition. Because that is not what I envision. I envision a SS reactor vessel enclosed within a copper sphere attached to a copper pipe. The reactor vessel is suspended inside the copper and the water passes outside the SS reactor. Water does not enter the reactor vessel but passes around it. Otherwise, how do you maintain the H2 pressure? T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Watson, bring me my Dremel tool! T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Has anyone seen such a sphere? Nothing seen by me indicates that level of sophistication. Small spheres are tricky to make and the outward of H2 pressure would possibly be more of a problem than a central tube. An axial copper tube, even having lost mass to migration, would withstand a fairly high external pressure, especially with pressurized water flowing through it. Think about how you would construct that and maintain over 300 psi of pressure. It would be easy to construct the stainless reactor assembly separately and surround it with the copper assembly. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
The patent drawings sure looks like cylinder type vessel containing Ni and surrounded by flowing water. Dennis C -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 5:53 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Has anyone seen such a sphere? Nothing seen by me indicates that level of sophistication. Small spheres are tricky to make and the outward of H2 pressure would possibly be more of a problem than a central tube. An axial copper tube, even having lost mass to migration, would withstand a fairly high external pressure, especially with pressurized water flowing through it. Think about how you would construct that and maintain over 300 psi of pressure. It would be easy to construct the stainless reactor assembly separately and surround it with the copper assembly. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Dennis den...@netmdc.com wrote: The patent drawings sure looks like cylinder type vessel containing Ni and surrounded by flowing water. Yeah, and that is probably similar to the 12 kW reactor; but, the heat variance over that amount of material required 5 heaters to control. The much simplified single heater with a smaller output is actually an ingenious modification, IMO. He probably solved the runaway issue and that gave him confidence enough to make the 1 MW array. It will look like several bumpy pipes feeding a steam chamber. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, and that is probably similar to the 12 kW reactor; but, the heat variance over that amount of material required 5 heaters to control. The much simplified single heater with a smaller output is actually an ingenious modification, IMO. He probably solved the runaway issue and that gave him confidence enough to make the 1 MW array. It will look like several bumpy pipes feeding a steam chamber. It looks like 60 degress C is when the reaction starts. Then the reactor takes over. Each feed pipe might have 3 bumps with only the first one heated electrically. Once the reaction starts, cascading bumps take it to a boil and multiple pipes gives him the volume he needs. It really could be that simple and safe with no possibility of criticality. Or not. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
yes, I would think that a practical design would be to have a single large flow system with several of the stainless reactors down inside the flow instead of having a hundred widen copper tubes to make. I also think that the additive is something that keeps the Ni surface reduced and supports growth of nano structure on cheaper Ni micron level material (like in his patent photos of 10 micron Ni particles) something like: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL_udi=B6TX9-4VKXBWN-2_user=10_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2009_rdoc=1_fmt=high_orig=gateway_origin=gateway_sort=d_docanchor=view=c_searchStrId=1708626491_rerunOrigin=google_acct=C50221_version=1_urlVersion=0_userid=10md5=4569566755ac4e9d238e648daa8d4cebsearchtype=a All the Cu migration is a red herring. I think it is just a good fresh surface of nano Ni that is important. ... perhaps a spill over catalyst but not as a major component. Dennis -- From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 6:25 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Dennis den...@netmdc.com wrote: The patent drawings sure looks like cylinder type vessel containing Ni and surrounded by flowing water. Yeah, and that is probably similar to the 12 kW reactor; but, the heat variance over that amount of material required 5 heaters to control. The much simplified single heater with a smaller output is actually an ingenious modification, IMO. He probably solved the runaway issue and that gave him confidence enough to make the 1 MW array. It will look like several bumpy pipes feeding a steam chamber. T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
All this being said, how do you avoid the isotopic ash in a true N reaction as Mr. Beene originally points out? T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: For a 50 cc volume, the internal sphere would have a radius of about 1 inch (2.8 cm). That should be 2.3 cm internal radius. Sloppy math! T
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. I gather Ed Storms also thinks that is the configuration, with the water flowing through the center of the bulge. Since the bulge is copper, that would mean the powder is in a copper container, not stainless steel. However, I think the container with the powder must be inside, hidden by the copper. I think the water flows through the pipe, around the outside of the hidden container. I say that because the configuration you describe would be a torus. It would difficult to fabricate, and difficult to work with that. You would have trouble inserting the powder and the resistance heaters. I would use a cylindrical container, rather than a torus. You have to anchor it to keep it from blocking the flow. I also say that because Rossi says it is stainless steel, and he has acquired a good bit of technical credibility in my opinion. All of the claims he made last year are now confirmed, including some extraordinary ones. I now take his claims at face value. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
Oh no I agree with Jed. Notice if it is just a SS cylinder inside some flowing water, it would be very easy to scale up. Just a bigger pipe or even a pond with lots of Cylinders down inside . D2 From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 7:38 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. I gather Ed Storms also thinks that is the configuration, with the water flowing through the center of the bulge. Since the bulge is copper, that would mean the powder is in a copper container, not stainless steel. However, I think the container with the powder must be inside, hidden by the copper. I think the water flows through the pipe, around the outside of the hidden container. I say that because the configuration you describe would be a torus. It would difficult to fabricate, and difficult to work with that. You would have trouble inserting the powder and the resistance heaters. I would use a cylindrical container, rather than a torus. You have to anchor it to keep it from blocking the flow. I also say that because Rossi says it is stainless steel, and he has acquired a good bit of technical credibility in my opinion. All of the claims he made last year are now confirmed, including some extraordinary ones. I now take his claims at face value. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
On 04/06/2011 11:28 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: From Stephen ... It's more likely that Levi is in on the gag than that transmutation from nickel to copper produced natural isotope ratios in the ash. The former merely requires the assumption that a few humans are acting unusually stupid (which happens frequently). The latter requires something close to a miracle (and miracles are very rare). Stephen, why is it that when expected results (such as in this latest case, the predicted isotopic shifts don't materialize the way we assume they should) the suspicion of fraud, misinterpretation of the data, and/or collusion once again become the most likely explanations for you. They don't. I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to pick specifically on fraud. I was merely pointing out that this shoots a big hole in the assumptions that underpin the conclusion that it's nuclear. Let me reiterate. * We've been told that after long operation, up to 30% of the nickel has been found replaced with copper. * In this particular case, about 10% of the nickel was apparently replaced with copper. * The assumed mechanism for the appearance of the copper was Ni+H - Cu * The assumed nuclear reaction in the device, which was assumed to be the reaction generating the energy, was also Ni+H-Cu. * If it's nuclear, as widely assumed on this list, then the reaction, as I just said, has been *assumed* to be Ni+H-Cu. * If that's what's going on, then we can expect with just about 100% certainty that the copper won't have the natural isotope ratios, and the remaining nickel also won't have the natural isotope ratios. * But they do. Obvious conclusion: If the isotope test was done correctly, then the reaction is almost certainly *not nuclear* -- or is, at any rate, *not* the assumed reaction: Ni+H-Cu. My point was that the certainty that it is *not* nuclear, if the measured isotope ratios are correct, seems far more solid than the certainty that... * it isn't chemical * no fraud took place * the steam was dry * the temperature of the tap water used in the second test was stable while it wasn't being measured * the thermocouples were properly calibrated * the pump was working properly with advertised pumping volume in the first published test * the hydrogen tank was weighed correctly * the World Trade Center was brought down by airplanes * George Bush won his second election with an honest majority of the popular vote * Elvis really is dead These are just a few things which seem *less* certain than the conclusion that the reaction is *not nuclear*, if the isotope ratios are dead-even natural. OTOH I suppose we can assume that lots of copper migrated, a little nickel transmuted, and the isotope test wasn't sensitive enough to pick up the tiny bit which actually did transmute. To check that, it would be necessary to determine how much transmuted copper would need to be found in order to account for the generated energy, and see if there was way, way, /way/ too much copper for the energy produced. If there was, then the isotope test results are irrelevant. But if there wasn't, then we're back to square 1. Whatever, take it or leave it ... Jones has gone much farther along this road already, and I am once again all out of time to post.
Re: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In the Essen report, Fig. 3, you see the hydrogen pipe at the top of the cell, and the power lead for the resistance heater at the bottom (the red wire). I am assuming both of pass through the outer copper sleeve, and then into the inner cylindrical stainless steel container. Granted, that might be a little difficult. Water may leak from the pipe connection at the top. I think this would be easier than working with a torus shaped cell. (By the way, the hydrogen pipe would anchor the inside cell and hold it in the center of the copper outer shell.) The configuration I have in mind is similar to the way the anode and cathode lead wires reach the cell in McKubre's labyrinth calorimeter. They go through the walls of the calorimeter at the top, and then continue through the cooling water envelope to the inner cylindrical chamber. See p. 6 here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHcoldfusion.pdf - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 6 Apr 2011 06:09:13 -0700: Hi, [snip] Even hydrinos would result in an isotopic imbalance. Actually, the ratio of Ni62/Ni64 is about the same as the ratio of Cu63/Cu65, so adding a proton to Ni62 to give Cu63 and to Ni64 to give Cu65 would automatically produce Cu in it's natural abundance ratio (almost). However there isn't enough Ni62/Ni64 in Ni to account for a 10% conversion. (Only about 5%). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 6 Apr 2011 10:23:32 -0400: Hi, [snip] Where are the electric fields that would cause electromigration? There are no fields in copper pipes as far as I know. ...different metals form junctions. Two junctions at different temperatures will form a thermocouple, and thermocouple currents can be very large in ordinary metals (hundreds to thousands of amps). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
The write up says: the reaction chamber is made of stainless steel so I would assume that the water flows around the outside of it. Ron --On Wednesday, April 06, 2011 4:17 PM -0700 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It looks to me like the water inlet goes through the center of the reactor. This would likely be a copper pipe along the axis, surrounded by the nickel powder. Copper ions would immediately start to migrate when heat was applied to the outside of the reactor. Did you enlarge the pictures? There is lots of detail. The water has to go through the reactor, and the simplest way is a Cu pipe down the axis. Why is that problematic? The conditioning time could be a day or two - and this would be needed anyway. Arata, Kitamura, Takahashi all talk about conditioning the powder. Of course, Rossi might be trying to disguise the fact that he is 'seeding' the nickel from the start, in addition. -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton IN SHORT - the migratory copper itself appears to be the secret catalyst, but only after it alloys with the nickel to form this super catalytic alloy - which almost splits the hydrogen molecule on contact. Unbelievable ! Well, then, it can't be migratory unless Rossi conditions each ECat for a period of time to allow enough Cu to migrate into the reactor. So, the other explanation is he dopes the Ni with Cu, again not migratory. T
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 06 Apr 2011 22:25:21 -0400: Hi, [snip] OTOH I suppose we can assume that lots of copper migrated, a little The problem with this is that the actual container holding the Ni is made of steel, not copper. The Copper is a second outer container forming the outside of a water jacket if I understand correctly. Hence there are only three possible sources of Cu: 1) The welds in the steel container. 2) Transmutation. 3) Fraud. (or misdirection if you prefer). I doubt there would be enough Cu in the welds to account for the Cu found in the Ni, and if a large amount of it migrated, then I would expect the container to fail (perhaps that's one of the problems he's been having?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In reply to OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson's message of Wed, 6 Apr 2011 09:30:21 -0500: Hi, [snip] Regarding the hydrino theory, my first impression would be to conclude (with absolutely no math to back this conclusion up with) that not enough hydrogen was consumed (into hydrinos) that would explain the massive amount of heat recorded. I hope someone can clarify whether my uneducated assumption on this point is valid or not. (I suspect it's incorrect.) The maximum amount of energy obtainable from Hydrino formation is, not coincidentally, exactly half the mass energy of an electron, i.e. 255 keV/H atom. Maximally shrinking 0.11 gm of H2 would therefore yield 752 kWh of energy, about ~30 times what was actually measured. Furthermore the calculation of the amount of Hydrogen measured assumes that none was absorbed by the Ni during filling of the reactor, which probably isn't true. IOW there may actually have been more than 0.11 gm of H present in the reactor. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In reply to P.J van Noorden's message of Wed, 6 Apr 2011 16:46:27 +0200: Hi, [snip] The energy release of the hydrino producing reaction is 50 MJ/mol hydrogen gas. The prefered reactionproduct seems to be H1/4. See http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/Eng%20Power050410S.pdf So if 25 kWh is produced (90 MJ) this should correspond to 1.8 moles of H2 gas = 3.6 grams. Peter van Noorden This assumes that the reaction stops at H1/4, which is not necessarily the case. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Swedish physicists on the E-cat: It's a nuclear reaction / The used powder contains ten percent copper
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 6 Apr 2011 07:59:15 -0700: Hi, [snip] When you compare the amount of hydrogen lost compared to the energy released, it works out to something like 100 keV per proton (but that can vary depending on which Rossi quote you have) ... which is far less than the energy of fusion - at least 1-2 MeV per proton, if it were Ni-H fusion, and far more than Mills typical 27.2-54.4 eV. For the third experiment, the numbers are 0.11 gm H2 25 kWh. This works out at 8.48 keV/ H which equates to level 25 Hydrinos. The interesting thing here is that level 24 is the smallest possible Hydrinohydride according to Mills, so this may provide a clue as to the mechanism involved. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
