from:"Joseph R. B. Taylor"

There is also an abundance of information left from those who initially 
discovered and tried to squash the IE family rendering bugs. Any google 
search for IE6 box model bugs or anything of the like will return a 
complete education's worth of material.


In the long run its all experiencing each bug and understanding what 
caused it and knowing that ahead of time, next time you begin marking up 
a layout.


When I first started doing layouts with CSS, I thought IE had it right 
and the other browsers were wrong!


Slowly I learned through trial and error, and for a time even did 
hybrid layouts using minimal tables as I got a stronger grasp of the 
issues I was facing.


The most important things you can do as you create layouts are to:

   * Make sure you're using strict document types and validate your
 code before anything else
   * Test everything in browsers that work first
   * Set up separate stylesheets for IE so you don't have to use hacks

Those points make life much easier in the battle against IE's rendering 
issues.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Kepler Gelotte wrote:


Hi Susie,

I am not an expert by any means. I joined this group to learn from 
others and get some tips. I try to tackle other people’s problems 
because it s a great way to learn and hopefully I can help someone out 
in the process. I have read a number of books on CSS (and other web 
related topics) and found the best explanation of the CSS model for me 
was in “CSS Mastery Advanced Web Standards Solutions” by Andy Budd.


A couple of techniques I use when debugging:

1) put a border around the problem area and surrounding or enclosing 
blocks using “border: solid red 1px;”


2) remove HTML and/or CSS chunks to try to isolate the problem. 
Sometimes by removing some HTML the problem goes away then that tells 
me where the issue lies.


Hope that helps.

Regards,

Kepler



*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Susie Gardner-Brown

*Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2007 7:07 PM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] IE6 problem - more general

Hi there Kepler

Thank you!
I believe it’s OK now.

I would really like to ask you how you know all this – how you keep it 
in your head?!! Do you have pages and pages of stuff like this written 
down, or what?!!!


For example: about making nav buttons clickable in IE7: why does the 
container div need to be ‘position: relative” for IE7? And what if 
there wasn’t a container div? Would that make it not work at all?!


I really need to get a handle on how to keep all these things ‘known’ 
to me! I’ve got a quite good book – The CSS Anthology, by Rachel 
Andrews. But it’s pre-IE7 ...


Any thoughts, suggestions would be great!

Thanks again ... :)

- susie


On 15/5/07 6:37 AM, Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Susan,

To make the navigation buttons clickable in IE7 you need to define the 
container as position: relative:


#container {
position: relative;
}

Also the pseudo links should be defined for :link and :visited if you 
define It for :hover. Try using these for the navigation definitions:


#leftNav a:link, #leftNav a:visited { /* instead of #leftNav a */

#level2nav a:link, #level2nav a:visited { /* instead of #level2nav li a */

Regards,
Kepler



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Re: [WSG] The use of web standards (tables vs CSS)

The best one I ever saw was a hilarious, cartoon-infested, yet factual 
case made against the use of tables for layout, but for the life of me I 
have cannot remember the url.


I'm hoping the mentioning of the cartoons will spark some other member's 
memories since I myself saw it 3-4 years ago.  All I remember was the 
cowboy who was saying something like ...thats the cowboy way... in 
regards to following the standards.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Katrina wrote:

Gday,

Does anyone know of any research done at any time covering the use of 
web standards? John Allsopp showed some research at Web Essentials in 
2005.


What I am specifically looking for is the use of CSS for advanced 
layout versus tables.


Anyone know of anything?

Kat



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Re: [WSG] The use of web standards (tables vs CSS)


Yes! Good Stuff.

It was this page that opened my eyes to CSS forevermore.

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



John Faulds wrote:

I think you're talking about this one: http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

On Wed, 16 May 2007 13:59:38 +1000, Joseph R. B. Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


The best one I ever saw was a hilarious, cartoon-infested, yet 
factual case made against the use of tables for layout, but for the 
life of me I have cannot remember the url.


I'm hoping the mentioning of the cartoons will spark some other 
member's memories since I myself saw it 3-4 years ago.  All I 
remember was the cowboy who was saying something like ...thats the 
cowboy way... in regards to following the standards.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Katrina wrote:

Gday,

Does anyone know of any research done at any time covering the use 
of web standards? John Allsopp showed some research at Web 
Essentials in 2005.


What I am specifically looking for is the use of CSS for advanced 
layout versus tables.


Anyone know of anything?

Kat



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--Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Site check Please - new thread


Taco,

Don't worry, I'm not one of these nuts who blows up the text to 1200% or 
anything.  I make my largest benchmark the largest setting on IE which 
is the about the equivalent to 2 sizes up on Firefox.


No, its not the end of the world by any means, but you know what happens 
when you ask for a site check around here.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Taco Fleur wrote:
 
Thanks.


How large did you size the font to? We've only anticipated 1 size up, as its
already a large font. You can't win in every situation ;-)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2007 2:32 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site check Please - new thread

Taco,

Everything looks real good with one exception which should be an easy fix:

The yellow bar.  As you increase the text size, the yellow bar does not
expand with it.  The content instead eventually hides as it passes the
bottom of the bar.  If the yellow bar and the drop shadow below it are one
image, I would simply separate them and make the drop shadow a top-place
background image below the yellow bar so the bar itself can expand without
breaking said shadow.

That sounds confusing - heres a screenshot in WinXP/IE6.  Firefox 2 does the
same thing FYI:

http://sitesbyjoe.com/files/wsg/sell-my-stuff.gif

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Taco Fleur wrote:
  
For some reason my other emails ended up in someone else's thread, 
even though I created a new message from scratch.


Anyways; anyone interested in a site check?

http://web-strategists.com:888

Thanks in advance...

Taco Fleur
www.pacificfox.com.au website design





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[WSG] A Linux Check please?

2007-05-02 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Good Linux users,

Can you check this layout for me?

http://seaislerealty.com/homepage.php

As long as nothing is blowing up, we're cool.

Thank you so much!
--

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



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Re: [WSG] Template Review

2007-04-29 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

FYI - the main box for the layout busts out on each side by 20px in 
Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows XP.  You'll need to feed that browser 
something 40px thinner as a width on that box.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Paul Novitski wrote:

At 4/29/2007 06:04 PM, CK wrote:
http://working.bushidodeep.com/dom_site/template.phphttp://working.bushidodeep.com/dom_site/template.php 


...
Typography is the emphasis of this creation, so a review for 
readability is desired. Please send along screen captures of any 
strange behavior.  Concerned with the absolute placement of the 
navigation and the generated content.



The 'READ MORE' links do not function as hyperlinks using Win Firefox 
2 (and of course they don't show up in Internet Explorer 7).  Oh, I 
see, they're not actually links; I assumed they were because the mouse 
changed to a pointer, but I see that you forced that in your 
stylesheet.  Why?


When I enlarge the text (which I need to do in order to read the 'READ 
MORE' links), it spills out of the white column background.  With a 
layout this simple, why not make the white column resize with the text?


Also with enlargement, when the text wraps at window width it overlaps 
the beginning of the body text.  Why do you take the nav menu out of 
the flow?  This seems to create problems unnecessarily.


In Win Firefox 2 the validation select list seems too short, cutting 
off part of the final 'n' of Validation.  I can't see where in your 
stylesheet you're constraining its width, but maybe some padding-right 
would help.


My eye sees a busy page.  I would increase the leading before each DT 
to let the page breathe.


It's really just a big list, which I don't find interesting; even 
while reviewing this template I couldn't make myself actually read 
it.  I would consider using a more engaging method of communicating 
with the reader.


I like your color palette!

Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com


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Re: [WSG] What do we say if we don't say click?

2007-04-19 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


My good people,

It's really a matter of simple common sense. Yes, we want to cater to 
the largest possible audience. But in all reality, unless our site in 
question is the first web page someone has ever encountered, they'll 
understand that whether they click, press enter or any other possible 
means of activation, following a link is following a link.


In my opinion, click here is a stupid thing to put in a link. The text 
of the link should do its best to describe what it actually points to.


For example:

A link that says Books about birds. Pretty obvious what your click 
or whatever will bring you to. Instructions for activating the link are 
superfluous to say the least.


If I purchase that Book about birds and open it to the table of 
contents, does the description of a chapter say, Turn to page 95 for 
information about bluebirds?


No!

It'll say Bluebirds...page 95.

The method we would use to reach page 95 is out of context of the 
information.


As far as the URL showing on printwell thats another beast altogether.

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Helen Morgan wrote:

Hi John,

Do you ever find that your solution causes you page layout problems 
(that is, including the uri as the link text)?


When I first encountered “web standards” folk, it was suggested to me 
that including uris as link text wasn’t ideal for accessibility 
reasons, because of screen readers reading them out (tedious and often 
meaningless for end user – Patrick Lauke summarises this in a post to 
the list back on 31 October 2005, “Re: [WSG] {WSG] What's the best way 
to display links?”.


Placing the a href tag around descriptive text can be more 
meaningful (just as placing the a href around Click Here can be 
meaningless). But in the largely academic world that I work in, 
scholarly citation is the key to what we do, so we see including a url 
in its full glory on the page as necessary, and at present we do make 
it the text that is linked. This sometimes causes me problems in the 
design, breaking page layout – possibly because I am not a brilliant 
exponent of css - especially when you are citing urls created by 
government departments which ridiculously long.


I am aware of several workarounds, but haven’t found them satisfactory.

Cheers,
Helen


John Foliot wrote:

James Leslie wrote:

On a related note, though not involving galleries, I find a lot of
our clients want to have linked text along the lines of Click here
for more details on product x. I have managed to fairly much insist
that we always use the entire sentence as a link to show context,
rather than just the click here that they tend to want being the
only linked part. The main reason I have not been able to get rid of
the click here part altogether though is due to an absence of a
suitable alternative that incorporates other technologies... Does
anyone have any suggestions for these circumstances? 


One thing I try to encourage is to rephrase the statement to actually
present the URL as part of the on screen text, for example:

...More information regarding foobar can be found at: a 
href=link_uri

blah blahlink_uri/a.

1) almost everyone recognizes a structured URI as being a link, there 
is no

ambiguity there
2) surprisingly, some people still print out web pages, and providing 
the

actual uri in print benefits these people
3) making the uri the actual link text ensures that the link text is 
unique

for the page
4) this is technology agnostic

JF

*blah blah in uri above = title, class or id declarations as
required/desired



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[WSG] Layout Check Please (Linux / Mac)

2007-04-16 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Greetings all,

I was hoping some of you fine Linux / Mac users could test this layout 
to make sure no blowups happen.  Everything SHOULD be fine, but you 
never know.


http://homestead.foodzoomer.com/

Thanks a bunch!
--

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



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Re: [WSG] input name and id

2007-04-16 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

The name attribute is used to post the element's value to a new page, 
where as id is used to identify the element within the document. You 
want both regardless of the duplicate entry when creating the input 
elements.  If you had to leave one out, you would remove the id 
attribute, leaving only name.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The HTML  XHTML definitive guide from O'Reilly states that NAME is a 
required attribute in INPUT. Can I just substitute ID for NAME and still 
adhere to web standards or is NAME really required? I'm coding for HTML 
4.01 strict.


  



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Re: [WSG] em-based layout test request

2007-04-09 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Paul,

It's just a jpg file.  It may just be that the colors stretch together 
without looking TOO bad.  I'll install IE7 and start checking out the 
issues ASAP.   I'll also take a look at the expand to screen width only 
issue, but I'll assume that will throw using ems for box model sizing 
out the window.


Thanks for the input.

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Paul Novitski wrote:

At 4/8/2007 09:18 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
I've been working on an em-based layout and wanted to see what your 
user experiences were like on this test page.

...

http://sitesbyjoe.foodzoomer.com/homepage.htm



It seems to break apart a little in IE 7 but as you know works fine in 
Firefox 2.


Although I'm fond of absolute zoom like this, I get a lot of push-back 
from collaborators and clients because it triggers a horizontal 
scrollbar at high zoom.  (I don't see anyone complaining about Word, 
PDF, Excel, and other document formats doing this, but maybe I get the 
push because I'm more accessible than Bill...)  My compromise is to 
make layouts that expand up to but not exceeding window width, such as 
this http://i-edu.org/ and our own site http://juniperwebcraft.com/


I don't generally make images expand because they tend to shrink and 
expand badly, but your large image in this demo does OK.  Did you save 
it in any special way for this purpose?


Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com


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Re: [WSG] em-based layout test request

2007-04-09 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Gunlaug,

Thanks for taking a look at this.  I think I still have 100% widths on 
those items


I'm not sure how to deal with IE/Mac.  I may opt to hide all styles from 
it altogether.


Again, on the window width, I am in agreement.  It seems to survive 2 
zooms larger without passing window width, but I'm running 1280 wide so 
that's probably not the typical experience for those who have to enlarge 
their text in the first place.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


http://sitesbyjoe.foodzoomer.com/homepage.htm


A minor flaw: black header and footer background don't expand with page
in most browsers, but is instead fixed to original window-width.

IE/Mac is not treating the header all that well. Also: floats default to
'width: 100%' in that browser, which ruins the nav list.

Otherwise it seems to work as intended in regular win and Mac browsers.

If you belong to the group that thinks those visitors who really need to
resize fonts either have large screens/browser-windows, or that they
should have to scroll sideways to read long lines, then 'em fixed' is
probably ok.

I'm not fond of 'em fixed' layouts myself - because of the above, so I'd
limit them to window-width.

regards
Georg



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[WSG] em-based layout test request

2007-04-08 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Everyone,

I've been working on an em-based layout and wanted to see what your user 
experiences were like on this test page.  I went back and forth between 
fixed pixel, percentage-based and was never 100% pleased with either.  
The em-based behaves just like a fixed layout, but responds better to 
increased text sizes.  At least my tests so far have been successful.  
I'm running WinXP and have tested on FF 2.0, IE6, Opera 8.5


I'm hoping to redo my site after the old one has become a couple years 
stale.  New logo too.  Don't want anything messed up appearing before 
committing to the change. I'm sure you understand.


http://sitesbyjoe.foodzoomer.com/homepage.htm

Give it a shot and respond off-list if this is too off-topic.  On the 
other hand, getting this layout ripped apart could be good list 
reading.  Hopefully it won't be ripped apart, but there are plenty of 
untested browsers out there, especially you linux and mac users.

--

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



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Re: [WSG] Correct structure of lists with headers

2007-04-06 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

All thoughts so far on formatting lists with headings are good.  I would 
hesitate to put a heading inside a li though. Seems a little goofy to me.


Again, the content being marked up will be the final decision maker.

My 2 cents,

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Serdar Kiliç wrote:

Hello

On 07/04/2007, at 12:12 AM, Webmaster wrote:


Hi everyone,

I read some tutorials about lists but i don't find how make good 
structure

list that have headers. How i make this list? Which are the best option?


The answer is it depends :) You could use a definition list::
dl
  dtList Header/dt
  ddItem 1/dd
  ddItem 2/dd
/dl

== or ==

h1Phrase Header/h1
ul
  liPhrase header/li
  liPhrase header/li
  liPhrase header/li
/ul

It depends on what you're marking up.

Regards,
Serdar Kiliç
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [WSG] site check - almost ready for prime time

2007-03-19 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Looks pretty strong.

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Bob Schwartz wrote:

The test site at

http://www.fotografics.it/fife/

has been refurbished to make it more standards compliant,

before moving on to the accessibility layer I would appreciate it if 
you guys could check it out for any errors or wrong practices


Thanks,

bob


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Re: [WSG] standards selling points

2007-03-09 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


This is a discussion that continuously reappears on this list.

I've been down this path myself and these days agree with those who say 
not to bother selling the standards to people.  They really don't care. 
Sorry.  I spent many meetings with clients trying to explain what 
standards are, and the only thing they are interested in are any 
tangible benefits.  If you cannot focus on benefits, don't waste your time.


In my experience:

Clients do care about SEO, but don't care about screen readers. 
Clients do care that google can whip through clean code, butt don't care 
to know what tag soup is. 
Clients think that it interesting that javascript image buttons with 
javascript: in the url screw up search engines etc, but don't care for 
the technical explanation.
Clients don't care that the 25 nested tables don't validate, but do care 
that it takes 5 times as long to make a minor change on that type of page.
Clients think its cool when I press CTRL+SHIFT+S in firefox and remove 
the presentation layer to show them what the search engine sees, but 
they don't care to learn the difference between presentation, 
information and behavior.


As a designer/developer you want to try and separate your self from your 
competition, especially if they do crappy work.  A long speech aimed at 
educating the client is a nice thought but in practicality a waste of 
the client's time.


Point being, we're not selling standards here.  We're supposed to be 
selling quality websites that are well-coded and accessible to a variety 
of audiences.  Following standards is simply the recommended way to do 
so.  Save the education for a brochure to hand them if you insist on 
drilling the concept into their heads.


Keep in mind I'm in America so I'm in an environment where REALLY no one 
cares.  My competition all uses Frontpage, frames, javascript links, 
whole pages that are just jpgs with image maps, only use CSS to style 
scrollbars - its ridiculous!


My 2 cents,

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Tony Crockford wrote:

kevin mcmonagle wrote:


Hello,
This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input.
I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of 
competition.
What are some web standards selling points that might get through to 
a completely uniformed, unsavy client.


MACCAWS was ahead of its time and seems to have been forgotten, mores 
the pity, but it was set up specifically to help web designers in your 
position.


There's a whole Kit of information here:

http://www.maccaws.org/kit/
Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards | maccaws.org

hth



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Re: [WSG] Screen reader friendly show/hide dhtml

2007-03-05 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Here's the rule of thumb concerning screen readers and hidden content:

Start with it in place from the beginning, then hide it with javascript 
once you run some tests to make sure it works (ie event handlers etc)


That way you are safe.  Trying to create this interactivity with a 
screenreader will only create a confusing experience.


This same rule should apply to any javascripting - always start with a 
plain-jane page and enhance from there.


My 2 cents,

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design  Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com



Steve Green wrote:

It is difficult to give a definitive opinion without seeing your
implementation but I have never seen a design of this kind that was
accessible to a screen reader if the content was displayed on hover.

I doubt that displaying it on focus would work either. JAWS (and some other
screen readers) works off its own object model so the links only receive
focus when they are clicked, not when they are read.

As it happens we are working on a site that uses this show/hide
functionality right now (we are only testing it, not designing it). Take a
look at http://www.makesenseofit.com/Retirement/All-the-info.aspx - I assume
this is the sort of thing you want to do. JAWS ignores the show/hide
functionality and always reads all the content whether the list is fully
visible or not.

In most cases this is the least confusing solution even though the user may
wonder what the 'view more'/'view less' links do. Dynamic content is almost
always a problem for screen readers no matter how it is designed, and
content that really does toggle on and off can be more confusing than links
that appear to do nothing.

I don't think that a facility to turn off the show/hide functionality would
be useful. You would have to explain what it was for, and at that point the
user has no way of deciding whether to turn it off or not.

The way you implement this could affect other user groups too. Can you be
more specific about what you want to do?

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rebecca Cox
Sent: 05 March 2007 22:27
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Screen reader friendly show/hide dhtml

Hi all,

I've got a couple of questions regarding DHTML and how to ensure content is
accessible  usable via screen reader. 


Say you have a web page with a link to Subscribe to updates - when the
user hovers on the link, a form would be displayed below (standard dhtml
show/hide). The form would be in the HTML source on page load, hidden using
CSS. 


My questions on this are:

1. If we displayed the content on focus as well as on hover, would this make
it screen reader usable?

2. Alternatively, we could make clicking on the link (rather than, or as
well as, on focus) display the content and take you to it (ie use an anchor
on the page).

2. Does reading out the link (for screen readers) give it focus?

3. If we had (at top of page, with the skip link) a facility to turn off the
show/hide functionality, (using a cookie) would this be useful?

If anyone has comments, suggestions etc they could pass on to me about this,
it would be greatly appreciated:)

Regards,
Rebecca Cox



SIGNIFY LIMITED :: the logic behind



ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241

http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington 250A
Wakefield St, Wellington



This communication, including any attachment, is confidential. If you are
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[WSG] Website Directory Structure - Best Practice

2006-03-18 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Greetings Friends,

A topic I haven't seen posted here yet, that I feel is relevant when it 
comes to working to have a standard way of doing things.


When it comes to website directory structure, I'm curious to know how 
you gurus out there set up yours.


I myself, have been using this set up:

root web folder
-images
-main.htm
-events.htm
-bio.htm
etc, etc

Recently I was hired to do some cleanup on a site I hadn't built and the 
directory was set up like:


root web folder
-main
--images
--main.htm
-events
--images
--events.htm
-bio
--images
--bio.htm
etc, etc

Looking at these two layouts, I first notice that the 2nd layout has 
multiple images folders, one for each page in fact.  This sort of 
organizes the images better, but now there's images all over the place.


How do YOU set up your directories?

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Usability issue with form help

2006-03-13 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Keep in mind too, that most tabbers are familiar with shift + tab as 
well for navigating backwards.


Should we assume that keyboard navigators can competently do this, or is 
that giving too much of an assumption?


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Terrence Wood wrote:


On 14 Mar 2006, at 12:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

How can we keep context sensitive help available for each input feild 
that requires it but potentially ignore it in a tabbing sequence?


Most of the items look reasonably self explanatory. I can't imagine why 
anyone would need help with title, first name, last name for example (I 
know the from is a sample ;-) ).


A few quick random ideas:

(1) en/disable help for the entire form with one click. Load help with 
ajax (since the help buttons are js), or reload the form.
(2) Create concise help that fits within the label e.g. card number (as 
it appears on your card), postcode (1234). Use spans to position it on 
the other side of the input if need be.
(3) Have looser requirements - do more processing server side so you 
don't have to specify formatting e.g. accept spaces, dashes, or not in 
credit card numbers.
(4) Improve consistency - provide help for every item so that 2 tabs 
always gets the next field.
(5) Use better labels that are descriptive and clear in themselves and 
don't require help.

(6) Provide help after the form that is always visible.
(7) provide a help key via js on a character you know won't be entered 
e.g.~
(8) Group items on your form better and provide a narrative paragraph 
for each fieldset.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] page break when printing

2006-03-09 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Look up page-break-before and page-break-after in google for 
explanations and how to use in your particular case.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Jack Pivac wrote:

I have a page with about 20-30 div's each about 200-300px height.
Unfortunately when printing they sometimes get divided between 2 
pages... is there any way round this?
Its for an internal thing, so it doesn't _have_ to work with IE, just FF 
will be fine, but IE'ness would be nice.


Cheers,
Jack
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Re: [WSG] testing tips

2006-03-02 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Well, you could keep on testing forever, but the basics are:

Windows:
IE 5.5, 6.0
Firefox 1.5
Opera 8.5

Mac:
Safari, IE?

Linux:
Firefox 1.5
Konquerer

Thats just for browser rendering, there are many other things too

Validate on W3C, code and CSS

Do some basic accessiblity testing, Firefox has one toolbar you can 
download to check, has an extension to review your code as well.


Have fun,

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Anja Kennedy wrote:

Hi
 
can anybody give me some tips regarding website testing?

what browsers and versions to test in?
which mac OS are required? 
and what model mac would be most suitable?
 
thanks!
 
Anja


 

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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

2006-03-01 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Thank you everyone for your input, its been very helpful!

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Ulrich Maasmeier wrote:

Hi!

I´m just surfing a biz around, and it looks fine o me  on Mac OSX 10.4
w Opera 8.52

There can´t be any Sizing problems to me, because Opera sizes the
WHOLE PAGE, not just Text.
All is working fine, and the hovering effects are nice and useful.

Good Luck!

Limasign


On 2/28/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Greetings my friends,

I'm hoping you Mac and Linux folks would be so kind as to take a look at
this site on your system's browsers.

It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE 6.0.  The
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the text to
unbelievable sizes in FF.

The URL is: http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com

A screenshot for reference is located at:
http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/images/draft08.gif

Thank you so much!
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[WSG] Quick Site Check Please

2006-02-28 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Greetings my friends,

I'm hoping you Mac and Linux folks would be so kind as to take a look at 
this site on your system's browsers.


It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE 6.0.  The 
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the text to 
unbelievable sizes in FF.


The URL is: http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com

A screenshot for reference is located at: 
http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/images/draft08.gif


Thank you so much!
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

2006-02-28 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Office rats steal mice...

My god, I never tried REDUCING the font size during testing!

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such as 
min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the size 
reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Joshua Street wrote:

On 3/1/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE 6.0.  The
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the text to
unbelievable sizes in FF.



Unbelievable sizes here being one step DOWN (decreasing font size)
in Firefox1.5/Win, or two steps down in IE. I wouldn't discount any of
the offered sizes in IE as unbelievable, even IF they're smaller
(and the trend on this list is to advocate larger/unchanged default
font sizes).

That aside, nice design, looks fine in FF/Lin. I'd check Safari for
you but someone stole my Mac's mouse (apparently we have a
pest-deficiency in the office!)...

Josh
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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

2006-02-28 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Same thing is happening on the PC.

I have my nav text set to 1.0em.

I have the height of each li set to 1.75em.

I wrongly assumed that the li would expand along with the text since 
they both used ems for sizing...


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

piñon jorge wrote:
Mac designer here... I looked at it with FF 1.5 and Safari, and even  
Camino and they break the same.


On smaller font sizes (14pt) as was mentioned, but I also see a  problem 
with larger font sizes when any of the nav elements text  breaks to a 
second line (i.e. Realtor® Directory). Your lis don't  seem to expand 
along with the contained a elements.


I didn't have time to look through the CSS to see why, but maybe  
there's a height property added which shouldn't be?


I'm curious to see if this is happening to anyone on a PC.


Jorge


On Feb 28, 2006, at 5:12 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


Office rats steal mice...

My god, I never tried REDUCING the font size during testing!

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such as  
min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the size  
reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Joshua Street wrote:


On 3/1/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE  
6.0.  The
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the  
text to

unbelievable sizes in FF.


Unbelievable sizes here being one step DOWN (decreasing font size)
in Firefox1.5/Win, or two steps down in IE. I wouldn't discount  any of
the offered sizes in IE as unbelievable, even IF they're smaller
(and the trend on this list is to advocate larger/unchanged default
font sizes).
That aside, nice design, looks fine in FF/Lin. I'd check Safari for
you but someone stole my Mac's mouse (apparently we have a
pest-deficiency in the office!)...
Josh
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Re: [WSG] Converting the heathen: never again

2006-02-27 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Ah, I remember working as an ASP/SQL developer for a local company that 
was the leader in site construction.  At the time, I was just 
discovering CSS layout techniques, and felt obligated to try and change 
the whole company over to the newer better way of building sites.


I worked with a designer, who like many, designed in photoshop, chopped 
and pasted into design view in Dreamweaver.  Needless to say, I would 
spend my days rebuilding his code in CSS.  As a newbie at the time, I 
ran across alot of bugs, and discovered that my CSS layouts would crash 
and burn in Mac, while his table layouts looked perfect.


My manager got wind of what I was spending my time doing, preaching 
about Firefox, CSS, etc...  and became fairly pissed off about it, 
claimed I was wasting my time, and as such, I quit not long after and 
started my own business.


They thought they were right.  I thought I was right.  That was 2 years ago.

Today, I've eaten up a good chunk of their business, and am growing nicely.

Today, they use some crap template. http://jsedesign.com

They also don't show anything in their portfolio, and most of their 
flagship sites have been rebuilt by other entities.


I don't think I need to tell you what the lesson is.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Absalom Media wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:


What kind of person would rather insult the customer instead of
admitting they have a problem?



A bank ?

I managed to get the standard filler text for a bank's customer
service department in pointing out some issues on Firefox 1.5. The
problem still isn't fixed either..

Lawrence


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[WSG] Min-Width, IE, Fluid Content and Hair Loss

2006-02-24 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Greetings all,

I'm working on getting a site launched - http://mcdowell.sitesbyjoe.com 
- and was hoping to make it completely fluid in all directions.


One problem, IE (surprise!)

I have a min-width applied to my wrapper div of 842px, and a width set 
to 95%.  That way it doesn't squish up (in small resolutions) too much 
and force floats downward.


Needless to day, it doesn't work on IE since it doesn't recognize min-width.

I've tried various workarounds/ searches on this, setting a width of 
842px in IE only etc...


These techniques keep it from shrinking, but I lose the fluid expansion 
that works so nicely on everything else...


Anyone have suggestions on this?

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Min-Width, IE, Fluid Content and Hair Loss

2006-02-24 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Thank you Project VII!  I could of sworn I had looked at that...

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Martin Heiden wrote:

Joseph,

Friday, February 24, 2006, 5:06:39 PM, you wrote:

JRBT I have a min-width applied to my wrapper div of 842px, and a width set
JRBT to 95%.  That way it doesn't squish up (in small resolutions) too much
JRBT and force floats downward.

You can try the javascript-solution that Al Sparber promotes on his
page:

http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/minwidth/

Download the Dreamweaver Extension or extract the JS from the
Demo-Page.

You could also fix it by feeding IE a expression in a speacial
stylesheet hidden from the good browsers by a conditional comment.

regards

  Martin

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Re: [WSG] Search Engine Script Little off topic

2006-02-08 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

You can always get the google search this site, or you can find free 
scripts that search html documents, usually in the asp/php flavor.


If the content of your site (articles and such) is databased, its very 
easy to write a search engine for that.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Todd Gleaton wrote:

Hello Everyone,
 
As I said in the Subject...this maybe a little off topic but I thought I

would ask the group since I am having a hard time finding what I am
looking for.
 
I am looking for a Search script to put on a website that will have

about 35 to 40 web pages in it.  Most of the scripts I've found through
looking you have to pay annually.  I am looking for preferablya free
script or at least one I can buy for a 1 time fee. 
 
Anybody have any suggestions?
 
Thankstg





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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

2006-02-03 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

In most instances, its not a case of trying to convince someone to 
change their ways, nor is it a case of trying to sell web standards.


The real fact is that each and everyone of my clients knows that HTML 
exists, and that it has something to do with a webpage.


My role when talking with them is to try and explain what I believe to 
be the best approach (utilizing standards), and coming up with visual 
examples that hit home at their level.  Not that they're stupid, but we 
can't expect a business owner in a different industry to have knowledge 
equal to the depth of our own in our own field.


Example: A local real estate agency wanted me to, in their words update 
the look of the site.  Do they realize that the original design was 
made in design view in Dreamweaver, comeplete with a multitude of nested 
tables, the horrendous javascripts it produces for rollovers and popup 
windows?  No.  Does it mean anything to them?  No.


But, as I approach the redesign, I feel its necessary to educate them on 
what I plan to do, mainly dumping all the nested tables, MM scripts and 
performing a nice code cleanup.  You can't SEE this as a non-web person. 
 It takes a well thoughout pitch to make them understand the point of this.


It's our responsibility to do it the best we can so they DON'T have to 
think about it.  Most educated people never heard the word semantics!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

adam LEAPER wrote:

what this email meant for me or what?
im confused to why I am getting so many emails?

On 2/3/06, Ben Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On 2/3/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I want to go beyond the argument of separation of information and


presentation markup.

What sort of resistance are you facing here? I.e. why are you arguing in
the first place?




That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage of


semantics, logical content markup

I don't understand what kind of clients you have that are pushing for
non-semantic and illogical markup.

Are you looking for ammunition to try to convince a business they really
need a new website because their current one isn't standards based? Are you
looking for an explanation of why you are different to all the other web
developers out there?

Ultimately, do you really need to sell web standards to the client?

I'm all for educating businesses. I'm all for educating developers. If you
really want to get out there and make a difference, organise Web Standards
Group meetings in your home city. Give presentations to user groups. Give
talks to interest groups. Show everyone your passion.

-Ben



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Re: [WSG] Firefox being naughty

2006-02-03 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Thanks for your replies, I noticed the double flash in Opera as well.  I 
think it's due to some compliant flash code script I had found last 
year - may have been on a list apart...  better go back and check them all!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Marilyn Langfeld wrote:

On Feb 1, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


Guys and Gals,

Perhaps you can help me with this mystery.  I built this site over  a 
year ago http://holidayrealty.com, and recently Firefox (I'm  using 
1.5 (could be the issue)) has stopped displaying my  background image 
on the main content (on subpages only) and is  instead just making the 
background black!  I even went into the CSS  and added a 
background-color: #FF and it didn't affect the  behavior at all.



I get a double Flash image in Safari 2.0.3 which pushes the text  below 
the box into the background on the homepage. Double image in  other 
pages, but the main text box stretches down to enclose the copy  in 
other pages.


I get the background, though, both in Safari and Mac Firefox 1.5.

Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1.301.598.3300 business phone
+1.301.598.0532 fax
+1.202.390.8847 mobile


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Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

Another option is to copy the text out of the PDF and stick it on the 
page.  I personally hate PDF's on sites (annoying to read).  Especially 
multi-page versions.  Just think how that text would help your page rank 
for that page if it wasn't a PDF...just a thought!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] wrote:


You can embed the PDF with code like this:



Eek...it's already bad enough when a PDF opens in the browser-based 
viewer, rather than the full Acrobat application. I'd say, as it's not a 
web native format, that the best strategy would be to just link to the 
PDF (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the 
server to send it as an octet stream).



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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

A point I often bring up is that using standards ensures that anyone can 
 jump in and work on the site (looking forward), the whole 
future-proofing issue, and my personal favorite thing to do is open up 
sites in Firefox and strip off all styles (in the web dev toolbar) to 
show them the squeaky clean informative document that is left behind 
once the presentation layer is removed. Then I show them the tag soup 
site that doesn't change much. That always creates an impression.


Hopefully thats helpful.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Jay Gilmore wrote:

Christian,

I wholeheartedly agree with you points but I want to go beyond the 
argument of separation of information and presentation markup.


I am talking about coding using the whole of standards based documents. 
That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage 
of semantics, logical content markup (SEO is a good argument here). 
Maybe I am making too much of it and trying to over theorize the issue.


Jay

Jay Gilmore

U)SmashingRed Web  Marketing http://www.smashingred.com
B)Jay Gilmore's SmashingRed Blog http://www.smashingred.com/blog/
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Christian Montoya wrote:


On 2/2/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


I am looking for a way to make small business owners see that they have now
sane alternative but to use web standards, not tell them they will be ahead
of the curve or save $100/year on hosting.
   



I'll think of more arguments later, but I can definitely say:

- CSS and seperation of presentation from content makes updating a
site easier, whether it uses a CMS or not. Tag soup CMS solutions are
usually expensive, whereas a typical CSS based site can be built on
top of a free CMS. More importantly, when the site does not run on a
CMS, it really helps to have clean, semantic code without
presentational markup. I know it's a pain for small businesses to pay
someone to update their website all the time (they usually can't
afford to do it in-house), and even if they still pay someone to
update their CSS based site, at least the updates take less time.

- Also, CSS makes it easy to have the site redesigned in the future,
should it ever be necessary, and if someone gives me a CSS site to
redesign, they'll definitely save a lot of money, considering how few
changes I would probably have to make to the markup.

Pretty much any argument that emphasizes lower maintenance cost is key
for small businesses. SEO is a plus.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net

I personally would expect the page to appear as any typical printed 
document should.


Page Title (your h1 element)
Table of Contents (your ul nav list)
Content (content)

My 2 cents.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Terrence Wood wrote:


On 3 Feb 2006, at 4:43 AM, Hopkins Programming wrote:

If there are any of you all who use screen readers or text-only 
browsers on a regular basis, what is your opinion?


 - Do you expect the navigation or content to come first?


Roger and Russ answer this one in their report. In summary, the current 
state of the web is that navigation comes first.



 - Which would you prefer to come first?


I use a text browser on a regular basis (it's really fast - no js, css, 
or images - and I prefer keyboard navigation to save my wrists). I 
prefer content first.


But think about how your page is designed for a moment. If there was no 
CSS, and all you had was HTML, how would you put a page together? Would 
you really have some navigation at the top, some in the middle and some 
at the end, intermixed with your content? There is no other situation 
where the UI is interspersed with the content. One of the big web 
standards ideals is the separation of content and presentation, and at 
the moment I think we are about half way there. Most sites are marked up 
to support the visual design provided by the CSS file.


 - If the content comes first, should there be a Skip to Navigation 
link at the top?


Yes, but I suggest if you use a reverse source order layout (content, 
then navigtion) that you label the link as main navigation or 
navigation menu or similar and drop any reference to 'skip' or 'jump'.


 - Overall, do you believe that the Content first principle is a 
valid one?


Yes. It has a number of benefits for a diverse range of devices (e.g. 
screenreaders, handhelds, search engines) and code maintenance. Consider 
this together with my points above.


I'm on record as not entirely accepting Roger, Russ and Lisa's 
recommendations on source order, but that said, I'm not vehemently 
opposed to them either.


HTH

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top


Adding a margin: 0px; to the H1 element pushed up to the top.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

White Ash wrote:

Hi all ~
 
There's a gap at the top of the page in Firefox  Opera, but not in IE.  
I would like that gap to go away!
 
Then in Firefox  Opera, the navigation comes down a bit, and I actually 
like that! 
 
How to get the best of both worlds??!!
 
http://www.frozenblues.com/cbmurphy/index02.php
 
http://www.frozenblues.com/cbmurphy/css/styles02.css
 
Thanks a bunch for any and all help!
 
White Ash





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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

It's also worth mentioning that many other readers exist besides 
Acrobat.  The feature-rich Acrobat features may not apply to all the 
readers.


It may be a mute point since just about everyone uses Acrobat, but...

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote:
Or you could open PDF files in Adobe Photoshop. The quality should be 
the same.


Dmitry

jackie reid wrote:


Bruce

If you own a copy of Adobe Acrobat and open the file in there you can 
extract/export images as jpgs. if not do screen shots. Its a pain... 
just like getting all the images required for a website embedded in a 
word doc aagh


jackie
- Original Message - From: Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: [WSG] pdf graphics



Hi all,

I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also 
nice that

they were sending the graphics for the site design.
Today I got them, in pdf format!
Now, perhaps I live on another planet, or a rank amature, but in the 
last

ten years online I have known no-one who uses pdf for graphics.
I have no clue what to do with them, especially after client stating the
time he put into making them.
I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web.
I really hope that standards aren't moving in this direction!!!

What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, 
menu

items and backgrounds...

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign

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[WSG] Firefox being naughty

2006-02-01 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Guys and Gals,

Perhaps you can help me with this mystery.  I built this site over a 
year ago http://holidayrealty.com, and recently Firefox (I'm using 1.5 
(could be the issue)) has stopped displaying my background image on the 
main content (on subpages only) and is instead just making the 
background black!  I even went into the CSS and added a 
background-color: #FF and it didn't affect the behavior at all.


Any guesses would be greatly appreciated.
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] missing menu: rendering bug in Firefox?

2006-01-28 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Get your code to validate then repost if it still happens.  I notice 
about 40 errors when I ran it through.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Roberto Gorjão wrote:

Olá a todos,

In this page - http://www.ouronor.com/problems/maquete.htm - I have a 
semi-hidden menu (flash inside a div). This menu has only a visible tip 
which is right below the logo. If you press it, the menu slides down... 
well, it should, but Firefox (only in windows, curiously) is the only 
browser that refuses to acknowledge its presence there. Funny thing: if 
you roll down the page till its end and back again, it starts working. 
Does anyone know how to solve this?


CSS is here: http://www.ouronor.com/CSS/problems/screen.css

Also, the background disappears in Opera 8 Win...

Thanks in advance for your help!

Saudações,

Roberto

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[WSG] ASP, PHP and Ruby - oh my!

2006-01-26 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Guys and Gals,

There's certainly a mass of hype surrounding Ruby these days.

It raises this question for me.

I usually still use classic ASP for my server-side stuff, but have begun 
playing with PHP as well, since ASP is obviously over whether its a good 
tool or not.


Now Ruby is pounding on my door, claiming to be the next best thing.

Are many of you already using Ruby?  Thus far, I've only seen that it 
increases the add/update/delete coding speed.


If the general feeling among is that this will become the method of 
choice in the future, perhaps I should come on board


If you want to keep this list clean, just email me your thoughts if you 
like.


Thanks,
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] ASP, PHP and Ruby - oh my!

2006-01-26 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Ok, SORRY for starting this thread, I didn't intend to start a classic 
argument over server languages.


I just wanted to get a feel for how many of us standards guys are 
adopting Ruby, or they plan to stick with PHP/other in the foreseeable 
future.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tom Livingston wrote:

On 1/26/06 11:20 AM, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



It's the only serious rival to Java and PHP.



ColdFusion is a much easier language and far more powerful...


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[WSG] IE6 and color display behavior

2006-01-23 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Guys and Gals,

Here's a neat one for you.  If you look at this URL in a couple 
different browsers, you'll notice that IE is making the background color 
different than the others (in my case Firefox and Opera).  Anyone know 
why this is and a possible fix?


http://sitesbyjoe.com/tutorials/mcdowell/default08.htm

Thanks,
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[WSG] To answer myself

2006-01-23 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


I bet its the .png filesdang
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
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Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

2006-01-13 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

This may be a bit off-topic, but I saw a few people mentioning GIMP. 
I'm a long time Photoshop user (since version 5.0), and Photoshop has 
been one of the excuses for staying a Windows user.


Has anyone been a longtime Photoshop user and switched to GIMP, and not 
looked back?


Maybe just email me if this is the case rather than pollute the list 
anymore than I just have.


Thanks,

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Marilyn Langfeld wrote:

On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:59 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote:


are the graphics vectors?
Opening from Adobe illustrator would
keep everything nice and editable.
-kvnmcwebn




I second trying Illustrator first, Photoshop next. Recent versions of  
both will open the files. Illustrator's underlying format is pdf, so  
you can almost always open a pdf with Illustrator, then reestablish  
layers yourself if you have to and change measurements to pixels and  
make the size 100% or an even multiple of the pixel size you want-- 
fonts may be a problem if you don't have the same ones on your  machine 
that were used in the pdf.


Photoshop has a pdf import dialog box that allows you to decide on  the 
page if it's multipage pdf, ppi, rgb vs cmyk, size. There's no  layer 
support if the original was made in InDesign or Quark, but  layers may  
transfer if the graphic was made in a new version of  Illustrator.


Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[WSG] Site re-check please

2005-12-16 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Guys and gals,

If the Mac / Linux users would be so kind as to take a peek at this page:

http://sausalito.sitesbyjoe.com/default.asp

I had posted this about 2 weeks ago and everyone ripped it apart, thank 
you, and I have made most the changes everyone mentioned that would make 
this layout better.


I have just added an underscore hack to fix a placement problem in 
IE/Win (6), hopefully this didn't cause any other browser to freak out.  
FYI - the placement problem was a classic mystery 3 pixel space on the 
left of my flash movie.


If anything seems bad, please let me know at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thanks!

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] li background image

2005-12-14 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

A trick I've used, though some may not care for this especially, is to 
use padding on the top and bottom, such as:


HTML:

ullia href=#My Link/a/li/ul

CSS: (going for 25 pixels high)
li{height:25px;}
li a{font-size:12px;padding-top:6px;padding-bottom:6px;}

Usually its works great, so long as the font size and padding measure up 
to the height.  Using em's is preferred of course, in which case that 
technique is irrelevant.  But if you're desperate...


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Nathan Wheatley wrote:


Nope. It does in fact make the lines higher, but it simple ads more
'space' at the top of the text, not actaully adding it to the top AND
the bottom. It also does nothing to make the image display at its full
height.

Damn. Any other suggestions?

On 12/14/05, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


On 12/14/05, Nathan Wheatley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   


I was just told not to use Pixel values in line heights? I will try
anything at this point though.

 


LOL, yes, I recommended not to use pixel line heights. Try a value like:

line-height:2;

and see if that is the equivalent to 24px at default text size.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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--
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[WSG] Flash and Validation

2005-12-12 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Guys and Gals,

A problem I have ignored all too long is Flash and XHTML.  The problem 
lies in the embed tag and its attributes of course.  I have of course 
read the alistapart articles on how they have taken steps to make valid 
code, but I have still found problems in Opera etc when using their methods.


I wonder how you guys code in your flash on your pages - let me know!

Thanks,

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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[WSG] Site Check please

2005-12-12 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Guys and Gals,

I have just switched my site to a fluid layout vs. the old 750 pixels 
wide approach.  I have also changed all my font sizes to em's to adjust 
as needed.


Can people in mac and linux take a glance to make sure all is well for me?

Thanks,

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] Site Check please

2005-12-12 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

The poor practices mostly come from this code being slowly updated since 
version 1, (which was really bad), hopefully in time all the no-no's 
will be removed.


I appreciate the time you spent looking in there and noticing that 
stuff, I forgot all about those stupid span tags all over the place, 
left behind from my various attempts to write my own CMS (which 
thankfully has gotten much better!)


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Christian Montoya wrote:


On 12/12/05, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


Joe, The site looks ok  but I have a few of comments:


Why are you using a transitional doctype? What elements or deprecated
attributes are you using that require this?
Why are you using pnbsp/p for spacing? ...
Why are you using spans to achieve what could and probably should be
accomplished using an h1, h2, or h3 element? ...

Jay

BTW: My own site is not perfect so go ahead and rip it apart. When I finish
my next few projects I will be revamping it.
   



Joe, what Jay said. The site is great but the markup is quirky. Please explain.

Well, almost everything Jay said. My site doesn't have these quirks,
so you probably can't rip it apart.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

In my own experience, I find myself using the house analogy again and 
again when it comes to websites and getting points across to clients.  
There's a code for what is considered a good building.  You cannot gain 
a certificate of occupancy with passing code.


You CAN launch a site without passing code, but there are groups that 
are working together to enforce the integrity of the code.  That usually 
puts them in the correct state of mind.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

adam reitsma wrote:


Donna,
This is where you really need to be thinking in terms of what the 
customer wants.


So it's the hippest, coolest, latest code - so what? They really don't 
care - and shouldn't care.


Come up with points that assist them - as Kim was saying, show where 
your 'methods' (and you don't really need much more discussion on what 
your methods are, unless they ask) come out ahead:
- Compare the end size of one of your pages vs one of theirs. Show how 
that affects your site's bandwidth usage, and how that could affect 
dialup users.
- If there's a change to your site that you could forsee (for 
instance, color scheme change, slight layout change, etc), outline the 
time (=money) savings in changing your code, vs theirs.
- Add that your methods provide better search engine ratings 
(providing that you are also supplying the right content), and that 
your methods allow for greater accessibility. For some non-profit orgs 
this can be a real advantage.


Show them some numbers that prove that you know what you're talking 
about - loading times, page sizes, % of other browsers, etc.


Good luck!

--adam--

On 12/6/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Donna,

 That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial
standards. I
 get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a
business
 point of view.

Several of my coworkers and I recently gave a talk on when we
chose to use
Web standards (and when we didn't). We created a handout with some
links
to articles on using Web standards. Maybe one of the articles would be
useful to you?

Some of the reasons we chose to move to XHTML/CSS instead of
table-based
design:
* Faster load-times.
* Smaller page sizes. (One site I did went from CSS-P to a table-based
template upon the customer's request, and the page sizes all tripled.)
* Better accessibility.
* Greater visibility in Web searches,
* Better compatibility with browsers.
* Future compatible with upcoming standards.

I'll be happy to provide additional information if you like.

Good luck with your situation.

Kim Nylander

--

These are some of the articles we used in the handout. Maybe they
would
have something useful?

Why Use Web Standards?

Buy standards compliant Web sites (W3C QA article)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/07/WebAgency-Requirements

The Way Forward with Web Standards (MACCAWS)
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/

What are Web Standards and Why Should I Use Them? (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/faq/

Web Standards Switch (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2003/03/web-kit

Using Standards

Learn the Standards (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/standards/

What Every Web Site Owner Should Know About Standards: A Web
Standards
Primer (MACCAWS)
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/primer/

Making your website valid: a step by step guide. (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/09/Step-by-step

My Web Site is Standard. And yours? (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/Web-Quality

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


The analogy is quite simple...

If there weren't codes to set guidelines for best practices when 
constructing homes, what kind of homes would most people have?


People have been building sites for years now and have no idea that 
guidelines even exist, let alone take steps to meet them and be up to 
code.


That's the point.  That's why they want to have someone build a site for 
them that has a clue about this stuff.  The day WILL come when there is 
a governing body over the net.  There WAS a day when housing codes DID 
NOT exist and were being worked on and accepted.


Hopefully that clarifies.  At least it works on Realtors

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

You CAN launch a site without passing code, but there are groups that 
are working together to enforce the integrity of the code. 



And which groups would those be? And what authority do they have over 
the site? Here's where the analogy may well fall apart, rather than 
have the desired impact...



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[WSG] Layout Check Please

2005-12-02 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Guys,  I'm on a PC with Firefox 1.5, IE 6.0 and Opera 8.5.  Everything 
looks okay so far, but I was hoping some of you mac / linux guys could 
take a peek at this layout please.


http://sausalito.sitesbyjoe.com/default.asp

Thanks so much,

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] Layout Check Please

2005-12-02 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Can you please send me a screenshot of that chaos?  If you care to, my 
email site [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Thank you everyone!

I wonder whats going wrong with IE/Mac?

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Lucid Realm Design wrote:


I'm running Mac OSX 10.2. It checks out on Firefox and Safari but on
IE your content is all over the place. (All browsers are most current
versions.)
--
Dan Smith
Lucid Realm Design
www.lucidrealmdesign.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 12/2/05, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


Guys,  I'm on a PC with Firefox 1.5, IE 6.0 and Opera 8.5.  Everything
looks okay so far, but I was hoping some of you mac / linux guys could
take a peek at this layout please.

http://sausalito.sitesbyjoe.com/default.asp

Thanks so much,

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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[WSG] Curse you IE! Float Drop suggestions?

2005-12-01 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Greetings all,

I'm hoping one of you CSS gurus out there who remember the cures for all 
of IE's quirks can solve this float drop instance please.


Here's the mockup I need to code up: 
http://sausalito.sitesbyjoe.com/mockup.htm


Here's the coded up page thus far: 
http://sausalito.sitesbyjoe.com/default.asp


Firefox, Opera - everything lines up swell and dandy, but curse that IE! 
I'm stuck already with the occursed float drop.


Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] Curse you IE! Float Drop suggestions?

2005-12-01 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

I managed to solve my problems by simply stepping around the issue.  It 
does still leave the question of somehow removing the 3px space from 
around images in IE which is the root of the troubles I was having.


Thanks,

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


Greetings all,

I'm hoping one of you CSS gurus out there who remember the cures for 
all of IE's quirks can solve this float drop instance please.


Here's the mockup I need to code up: 
http://sausalito.sitesbyjoe.com/mockup.htm


Here's the coded up page thus far: 
http://sausalito.sitesbyjoe.com/default.asp


Firefox, Opera - everything lines up swell and dandy, but curse that 
IE! I'm stuck already with the occursed float drop.


Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] jump menu method

2005-11-21 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


As simple as http://realtor.com and choose map search.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Herrod, Lisa wrote:


can you send a link to an example of one of these?

thanks,

lisa

-Original Message-
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 4:06 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] jump menu method


Just a thought, but if all the links are counties within a greater 
whole, why not use a happy map image map interface? Thats a-okay 
standards-wise, and degrades nicely into a list of links, and looks cute 
for visitors.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Terrence Wood wrote:

 


Lachlan Hardy said:


   


build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform
that into a dropdown list for those with JS.
Consider it a 'white lie of web design'
  

 


or call it 'progressive enhancement'.


nice solution.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] Firefox :hover font-weight: bold

2005-11-20 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

The flicker disappears if you simply remove the bold from the hover 
state.  Why not remove the weight change?  No matter what, the weight 
change is gonna move things around, try enlarging the text to eyesight 
impaired size and see what I mean.


Personally, I think the color change on the hover state is enough to 
indicate that something is happening.


Just my 2 cents.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Joe Huggins wrote:


On Win XP Pro | FF 1.0.7 the flicker is showing.

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Stuart Sherwood wrote:

Ok, I have a test page up. It is using the basic structure of the 
site I am making.


I am using Firefox 1.0.7.

www.re-entity.com/FF_Flicker_Bug.htm




Not seeing any flickering or other weird behaviour. Then again, using 
FF1.5RC3


P




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Re: [WSG] jump menu method

2005-11-20 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Just a thought, but if all the links are counties within a greater 
whole, why not use a happy map image map interface? Thats a-okay 
standards-wise, and degrades nicely into a list of links, and looks cute 
for visitors.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Terrence Wood wrote:


Lachlan Hardy said:
 


build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform
that into a dropdown list for those with JS.
Consider it a 'white lie of web design'
   



or call it 'progressive enhancement'.


nice solution.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

2005-11-16 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

I would use a selector to apply the border to the image itself, rather 
than the div.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

csslist wrote:

I have a div that shows phots dynamically that are different sizes and 
would like to throw a 1px border aound them, I can't seem to get them 
to hug the photo, anyone got any good tricks for this?


tia



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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any 
elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the case you need 
to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best is to insert 
a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.


This has long since been a point of confusion for many people, and this 
simple remedy (although in the long term not the best) proves most 
effective with todays browsers.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Thierry Koblentz wrote:


James O'Neill wrote:
 


I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the Alistapart's
hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even with the
rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It works fine
in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for quite a
long time. 


It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I expect
them. Oi!

http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/

Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope
   



Did you give this one a try?
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
It is a bit moe accessible.

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Help with menu


I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example:

http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm

It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good about 
using this approach.  It also frees me from having to stick hacks in to 
try and please the browsers.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com


James O'Neill wrote:


Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference for this?

Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight.

Thanks guys!

On 11/15/05, * Joseph R. B. Taylor*  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any
elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the case you
need
to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best is to
insert
a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.

This has long since been a point of confusion for many people, and
this
simple remedy (although in the long term not the best) proves most
effective with todays browsers.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

James O'Neill wrote:


I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the Alistapart's
hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even
with the
rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It works fine
in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for quite a
long time.

It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I
expect
them. Oi!

http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/

Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope



Did you give this one a try?
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
It is a bit moe accessible.

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com http://www.TJKDesign.com

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__
Bugs are, by definition, necessary.
Just ask Microsoft!

www.co.sauk.wi.us http://www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)
www.arionshome.com http://www.arionshome.com (Personal)
www.freexenon.com http://www.freexenon.com (Consulting)
__
Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox
http://www.getfirefox.com

Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards
http://www.maccaws.org/ http://www.maccaws.org/

Web Standards Project
http://www.webstandards.org/

Web Standards Group
http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/

Guild of Accessible Web Designers
http://www.gawds.org/ 


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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

The elaborate on Charlie's statement, the hacks will at some point bite 
us on the rear end.  There's a huge possibility we'll be going back and 
re-fixing those fixes.  I'm too lazy to put myself in that position, 
which is why I chose this profession in the first place.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Charlie Bartlett wrote:

Because it is a hack, I tend to use the same technique as Joesph, I 
think its best to avoid hacks wherever possible.
 
Charlie

http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk
 
On 11/15/05, *The Visual Process* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I'm confused at your suggestion, why add extra markup when you
just need
to use the box model hack in the css
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

 I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example:

 http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm

 It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good
 about using this approach.  It also frees me from having to stick
 hacks in to try and please the browsers.

 Joe Taylor
 http://sitesbyjoe.com


 James O'Neill wrote:

 Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference
for
 this?

 Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight.

 Thanks guys!

 On 11/15/05, * Joseph R. B. Taylor*  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths
to any
 elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the
case you
 need
 to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best
is to
 insert
 a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.

 This has long since been a point of confusion for many
people, and
 this
 simple remedy (although in the long term not the best)
proves most
 effective with todays browsers.

 Joe Taylor
 http://sitesbyjoe.com

 Thierry Koblentz wrote:

 James O'Neill wrote:
 
 
 I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the
 Alistapart's
 hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even
 with the
 rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It
works
 fine
 in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for
quite a
 long time.
 
 It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I
 expect
 them. Oi!
 
 http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/
 
 Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope
 
 
 
 Did you give this one a try?
 http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
 http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
 It is a bit moe accessible.
 
 Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com http://www.TJKDesign.com
http://www.TJKDesign.com
 
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 --
 __
 Bugs are, by definition, necessary.
 Just ask Microsoft!

 www.co.sauk.wi.us http://www.co.sauk.wi.us
http://www.co.sauk.wi.us http://www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)
 www.arionshome.com http://www.arionshome.com
http://www.arionshome.com (Personal)
 www.freexenon.com http://www.freexenon.com
http://www.freexenon.com (Consulting)
 __
 Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox
 http://www.getfirefox.com

 Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards
 http://www.maccaws.org/ http://www.maccaws.org/
http://www.maccaws.org/

 Web Standards Project
 http://www.webstandards.org/

 Web Standards Group
 http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/

 Guild of Accessible Web Designers
 http://www.gawds.org/


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Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

If you mean a vertical scroller that scrolls by hand, you can steal this 
one I made (CSS) way back:


http://www.ventnorcity.org/

If he want marquee scrolling or auto vertical scrolling, tell the client 
that its just plain bad taste - yuck!  Just kidding.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Giles Clark wrote:


I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page.

While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the
scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards
compatible solution?

Many thanks



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Re: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu


This appears to be a box model width issue.  You have a couple of options.

1. Use a hack to send a thinner width to firefox (adds padding to width)

2. Remove any padding/margins/borders from elements that have a 
specified width


3. My favorite (and in discussion currently on this list) is to wrap 
your padded elements with a div that states the width and 0 padding and 
margins)


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

kvnmcwebn wrote:


Hello,

A client has requested that a long menu be contained in
a fixed hieght situation with a vertical scroll bar.
Im doing a test with code from the list o matic site.

Heres an example.

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm

the problem is that its hard to loose the horizontal scroll bar
and get right to the edge of the list blocks. Especially in fire fox. I
would prefer to keep the styled borders so i need a fix.

my question:
Is there anyway to fool browsers into thinking that the
list container and/or list blocks are narrower than they are?

-best
kevin



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Re: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

You do want to set the width on that div, that way the nested elements 
stretch to its width.


kvnmcwebn wrote:


brillant thanks,

Adding  overflow: hidden; to .navcontainer ul does exactly what
i need it to in firefox-i.e didnt respond to it.


http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm


Ted:
Adding the overflow: y-scroll property takes care of ff and ie.
-thanks




Joseph:
I tried wrapping the lot in the below div but it dosnt have any effect and
the other elements are just li so i might be missing
something.

#fakewrap{
width:0px;
padding: 0px;
margin: 0px;
}

thanks a mill

-best kevin


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[WSG] PNG Question

2005-11-13 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Greetings all,

I wanted to see what people's comments were as to using .png's vs. .gifs 
these days.


I have a design that will require those nice transparency effects only a 
.png can provide if I want it to be just like the mockup.  Do most 
browsers support that yet, or do I have to go with the gif that has been 
carefully shaved?


If you care, the mockup is http://sausalito.sitesbyjoe.com/ and the 
shadow in question is on the logo - the problem is created by the 
pattern in the background behind it - blah blah blah.


Thanks,

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

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Re: [WSG] my rounded corner box isn't displaying correctly in IE

2005-10-30 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Classic box model problem.  Don't apply padding or margins (unless zero) 
to block level elements width a set width.


Use an additional div for padding and margins.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com


Bruce Gilbert wrote:


I have a rounded corner box I am using with four images and it
displays fine in Mozilla...

http://www.inspired-evolution.com/About_Me.php

in IE, however, the right side of the box is flat. Can anyone offer
some suggestions in getting this to look as intended in IE?

the CSS is at :

http://www.inspired-evolution.com/Gilbert.css

thanks much in advance!
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[WSG] Text choices on our own sites

2005-10-30 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

As a thought, I wanted to point something out.  No one cares about 
standards or accessibility but us.  Its our job to care.


As an example, we can view any of the URLs on this list, and see a 
common thread - we all like to point out that we use standards and care 
about accessibility.


I've noticed that often, our text almost sounds as though we write it 
just in case another group member reads it so we make sure no one thinks 
we suck or something.


You won't find this in any other industry.  Our potential clients want 
to know that we care, but we can never expect them to care about the 
difference between HTML and XHTML and XML, nor should we ever expect 
them to care much about CSS vs. tables for layout.


Our clients don't care as long as it works.  They do care that we care 
enough to make them the best, most accessible site we can, but they 
could care less how.


Just a thought.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] form hidden field ?

2005-10-29 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Set it's display to none.

Joshua Street wrote:


Example link?

On 10/29/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


I have a hidden field in a css styled form and when you view the page it's
shown as a line in firefox, any ideas?
tia

dave


   




--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
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[WSG] Which browser is most stanard compliant?

2005-10-29 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

In response to some of the opinions generated by my Firefox first, 
others later way of testing my pages, it brings up the question of 
which browser is closest to rendering my code the way it SHOULD look?  I 
was under the impression that Firefox was as accurate as available today.


If gecko is out of date, which is best?

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] Which browser is most stanard compliant?

2005-10-29 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

I always make sure everything works on every device, my point is that 
you have to start someplace when checking across devices.


I would hope that we can rely on at least one piece of software on the 
planet to respond correctly to our code.  We're well aware of which don't.


Al Sparber wrote:


From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 8:58 PM
Subject: [WSG] Which browser is most stanard compliant?


In response to some of the opinions generated by my Firefox first, 
others later way of testing my pages, it brings up the question of 
which browser is closest to rendering my code the way it SHOULD 
look?  I was under the impression that Firefox was as accurate as 
available today.


If gecko is out of date, which is best?



Gecko is certainly not out of date :-) Firefox and the latest Opera 
versions are pretty close. You might want to reconsider your Firefox 
first, others later philosophy, unless you just make personal sites. 
While we love standards and we think Firefox and Opera are the cat's 
pajama's, we tend to give prioroty to ensuring that pages work in the 
world's most popular browser. We find it easier, too. The secret is 
knowing IE's limitations before putting pen to paper. It's a heck of a 
lot easier than making a masterpiece that tests in Firefox only to 
discover it is a total mess in IE.


It's just my opinion, so I respectfully request the audience not throw 
any tomatoes my way.


Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.



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Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?

2005-10-28 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

I make it a point to test in Firefox first, since historically it is 
nearly free of rendering bugs.  IE and Opera come next, once the 3 are 
behaving, you should be in good shape.


I would be concerned about a bug only showing up in Firefox, I believe 
that hiding something from Firefox is not the way to go, but rather, 
make it right in Firefox and then worry about the others.


Hopefully this is helpful.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Kenny Graham wrote:


Believe it or not, part of my site works on every browser I've tested
-except- firefox.  That's right.  It works on IE, Opera, etc, but
Firefox screws it up.  Is there any valid way make firefox (well,
gecko in general) ignore a rule, while still serving it to all other
browsers?  The only method I can find is this:

selector { { declaration }

which obviously invalidates the css.

Incase anyone's curious, the problem involves using a non-repeating
animated gif as the background of a link, and a different
non-repeating animated gif as the background when that link is
hovered.  I'm using it to make a bullet slide toward the link on
hover, and slide back away from it on blur.  After one link is hovered
for the first time, every hover after that causes it to skip from the
first frame to the last, then back to the first, ignoring all frames
in-between.
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Re: [WSG] Never ending cross browser problems! Lets just do IE!

2005-10-19 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox wrote:


PS: the url: www.startregistration.com http://www.startregistration.com
OK, so I have started fresh, and this time started testing in FireFox 
first (the page validates). Everything going well, except that in 
Firefox there is a space between the top banner and banner underneath, 
thus breaking up the wording the right way.
I also can't seem to figure out what the whitespace space is that 
covers the two columns just under the Domain Extension Lists.

Not to bad, just two problems in Firefox.
But now when I look at it in Mozilla or Internet Explorer everything 
is a mess, I am at a loss here, is it even possible to achieve the 
same result for all 3 browsers? I am guessing its not, so that puts me 
in a position where I need to choose between the browsers, and I will 
need to go for IE, or I go back to a table layout, which I am sure 
will work in all browsers but will make me look like a fool in the Web 
Standards community, again, I have to choose for number one as I am in 
business to make money, and my clients pay me not the Web Standards 
community.
UNLESS someone very wise is able to help me out I am tossing up 
between just IE or Table layout HELP!


*Taco Fleur *- CEO
Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au http://www.pacificfox.com.au/
an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 …

** Web Design and Development

** SMS Solutions, including developer API

** Domain Registration, .COM for as low as AUSD$15 a year, .COM.AU for 
AUSD$50 two years!


** Seamless Merchant integration

** We endorse *PayPal 
https://www.paypal.com/au/mrb/pal=BYLS5532RWQWS*, accept payments 
online now!


Don't give up just yet. It is very possible to get identical results in 
all major browsers, even without all the hacks some people love employing.


You're pretty close right now. There's a couple minor issues, but they 
mostly come from you laying out your background images the way you would 
with tables as a habit. I remember the same frustrations not too long 
ago. As you said, your client and the payment you'll receive is number 
one, especially if you need the money. I'm sure I'll be flamed for that 
statement, but reality is reality.


If you go through my portfolio, you'll find stuff that uses tables and 
some that don't, it all depends on the situation. In real world 
business, things can't always be perfect. We strive for perfection. I 
ALWAYS try to use pure CSS, for my layouts, and as I grow as a 
developer, I get better and better at it, even when making my mockups in 
photoshop, I already am planning how the layout will be coded up.


You'll get to that point too as long as you always TRY to get it 
perfect. Only trial and error will teach you about the browser bugs and 
how to resolve them. Now get that site done and get paid!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
408 Route 47 South
Cape May Court House, NJ 08210
(609) 335-3076
http://sitesbyjoe.com

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[WSG] Firefox mystery space bug?

2005-10-17 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Guys and gals,

check this out.  http://hayteam.sitesbyjoe.com/default.asp

I get this occasional bug to show in Firefox for Windows.  What happens 
is occasionally Firefox puts a big space at the bottom of my content 
before just before the footer as if I had a bunch of spaces in there.  
It doesn't always happen, but sometimes it shows up if I refresh a few 
times, then after another refresh it disappears.


I have also seen it creep on this site too: 
http://northstartraffic.com/default.asp


It seems as though it is set off by content that is longer than the 
page, I've also gotten it to pop up more often when I fiddle with the 
declaration of link styles in the footer.  Its very strange and 
hopefully its not me!


If anyone is aware of this, or has a known fix for this please let me know!

Thanks,

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
408 Route 47 South
Cape May Court House, NJ 08210
(609) 335-3076
http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] Couple of question - Image Map etc.

2005-10-16 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor


Taco,

First Tip: I would start over (CSS-wise) and work on getting getting it 
right in Mozilla/Firefox first, then look at the other browsers next.  
When you code for IE first, you'll always have a number of mysteries to 
solve.


Other tip:  When having troubles, always go back to the raw code and 
slowly rebuild your CSS until the error creeps up.  Then you'll know 
exactly what the error is.  You'll be surprised just how much you'll 
learn about the browser bugs this way.


Lastly - Whenever I code a page, I usually have Firefox, IE and Opera 
open to test every change I make as I build the page.  Yes, its more 
time-consuming, but at least I know everything is rendering right.  I'm 
on a PC, so I have to hope and pray for Safari and IE to be good.  
Generally though, if Opera likes it, it must be pretty darn correct!


Hopefully this helps!

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
408 Route 47 South
Cape May Court House, NJ 08210
(609) 335-3076
http://sitesbyjoe.com


Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox wrote:


All right, image map is pretty clear, nothing to worry about there, thanks.
Anyone care to comment on the other issues?

Cheers,

Taco Fleur - CEO
Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au 
an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 .


** Web Design and Development 
** SMS Solutions, including developer API

** Domain Registration, .COM for as low as AUSD$15 a year, .COM.AU for
AUSD$50 two years!
** Seamless Merchant integration
** We endorse PayPal, accept payments online now!


 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke

Sent: Monday, 17 October 2005 7:10 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Couple of question - Image Map etc.


Andy Kirkwood | Motive wrote:

   


SINGLE IMAGE vs MULTIPLE IMAGES
A single image loads faster than the same cut into separate images.
 

At last...I thought I was the only one in the know with this tiny yet 
often misunderstood piece of info. It only gives the illusion to be 
faster to the user (questionably) because there's at least 
some bits and 
bobs appearing onscreen over a slow connection, rather than having to 
wait for the entire thing...but it is indeed quicker overall to just 
have a single image.


--
Patrick H. Lauke 
__
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively 
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] 
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk 
   


http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Re: [WSG] Hiding Headings

2005-09-28 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

I think we're strictly thinking of the perfect semantic document, which 
would in all likelihood, have an H1 at the very top.


Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:


-Original Message-
From: Duncan Heal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 28 September 2005 1:02 PM

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Hiding Headings

   


Search Engines don't care which part of your layout the H1 is in.
 


They will care how close to the top of the source code it is though.
   



What about writing the code so that the content area is close to the top of
the source? 


Personally I am not a big fan of messing around with position of content to
hide it from visibility. 


Actually... if I think about it... I am not a big fan of messing with search
engine rankings either. Dumping headings all over the place just to get a
better ranking is banned from search engines for a good reason. 



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Re: [WSG] IE MAC just won't play ball!

2005-09-28 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

I noticed one other thing worth mentioning on the charismalab site.  
Your container div with the background gets cut off at the bottom of the 
first page length (in Firefox using 1024x768 resolution).  I haven't 
gone through your CSS as I'm supposed to be working right now, but I'm 
guessing that you have at least one height in the chain from html to the 
content set to 100%. (screen shot enclosed)


You may want to try going backwards in your document and set anything 
that div is nested in to be 100% as well including adding a declaration 
for html itself set to 100%.  That should fix that. 




HELP! I've just done a site for http://www.charismalab.com
http://www.charismalab.com/. Everything is great for
Windows PC, Firefox,



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Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in on the flash thing.  I love CSS for 
yet another reason whenever I add flash to a site, since it usually 
involves a background image the same size as the movie, which when large 
(wider than 400px) can add to the wait time for the movie to run 
considerably.  Usually its the largest thing in the movie.


CSS solution:  Put the flash movie into a div, then set the big 
background image you'd use for the movie as the background image on the 
div.  Bang!  Flash movie much smaller, loads much faster, big image 
cached, everyone's happy.


Any thoughts?

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
408 Route 47 South
Cape May Court House, NJ 08210
(609) 335-3076
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Genau Junior wrote:


Christian Montoya wrote:

The only problem with this is sometimes when you right-click (if you 
ever need to right click) you get the Flash right-click options. You 
might also get certain Flash cursors instead of the default browser 
cursors.


On 9/26/05, *kvnmcwebn* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



'And I agree Sam, having movement like that behind text is
one of the worst
things you can do.'

I think that was meant as an example.
If this trick is used in a more ambiant way it could be really
useful.
Maybe just have some image substitution for opera until a solution
is found.


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Definetley

Flash cursosr are the best option to resolve this issue.,

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Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds

The download time for the movie itself to start is reduced, obviously 
everything still needs to download, but in the sense where I don't need 
the image right away in the movie its swell.


Joe

Tom Livingston wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:18:16 -0400, Joseph R. B. Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:


CSS solution:  Put the flash movie into a div, then set the big  
background image you'd use for the movie as the background image on 
the  div.  Bang!  Flash movie much smaller, loads much faster, big 
image  cached, everyone's happy.

 Any thoughts?



Nice, but usually Flash can crush an image down smaller than say  
ImageReady/PS. Yes, it adds to the swf, but are you really saving any  
download time?



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Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds

Another added thought is using flash detection to change the background
image if flash isn't seen via javascript, the replacement image can be
the same as the background image but with some text on it that emulates
what the flash would've been.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
408 Route 47 South
Cape May Court House, NJ 08210
(609) 335-3076
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Andrew Krespanis wrote:

On 9/28/05, Tom Livingston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:18:16 -0400, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

CSS solution: Put the flash movie into a div, then set the big
background image you'd use for the movie as the background image on the
div. Bang! Flash movie much smaller, loads much faster, big image
cached, everyone's happy.
Any thoughts?

Nice, but usually Flash can crush an image down smaller than say
ImageReady/PS. Yes, it adds to the swf, but are you really saving any
download time?

I'd vote YES.
While Flash does compress embedded bitmaps, I've always felt it does a
shocking job of it. Medium sized files that look like garbage.
I'd much rather use a limited palette PNG via CSS than cross my
fingers and hope that Flash's JPEG algorithm doesn't destroy my image
:)

Thanks for the tip Joseph; I'm working on two projects at the moment
that would probably benefit from this technique.

cheers,
Andrew.
N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i��n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q�(��b��(��,�)උazX����)��i

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[WSG] Hiding Headings