Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543330 Wrote: ...At 80 (on the new Transporter scale) you are not attenuating a normal range for volume control... Dropping down to 80 is not really a legit range to test... with that test you probably only lose a little over .5 bits... If you only drop 10dB it would be difficult to hear on a good DAC... 80 to 100 (that's only +/- 5dB) is way too narrow a range as a realistic Volume control... Hi mswlogo, I'm just curious here please: So are you now saying, that when digital attenuation is used -as a supplement- (i.e. as an additional 10db or so) good analog attenuation, the never in your post title can be dropped? -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Squeezebox Duet and Beresford Caiman DAC
I think that when used as digital transports, any audible differences between the Touch and SB3 must certainly reflect the jitter-sensitivity noise-susceptibility etc of the DAC(?) For instance, I recently had a chance to play with a Touch alongside an SB3 and a separate transport - all into a Benchmark PRE. Result: Absolutely no difference that any of us could hear, within the several systems tried. However, the Benchmark is an Ultralock design (not a PLL-design): It is noted for its highly-isolated conversion clock and for showing no measurable jitter-induced artifacts resulting from normal use of any of its digital interfaces. Keep in mind that I am most admittedly NOT an expert - so if there is somehow more to the story, I'd like to hear it as much as anybody else! :) -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78036 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I thought we had established that we are not losing detail until you've shifted over 4 bits but raising the noise floor out of the DAC (so the quietest sounds get closer to it or even in extreme cases, below it - although you can still hear them). Personally I reckon you can lose 4 more bits than that before you can detect anything in a DBT - we obviously don't agree on this but there have been many tests over the years that indicate people have difficulty telling 16-bit from 16-bit reduced (properly) to 12 or even 10 bits. Anyway, yes I am using an analogue pre-amp, and I have the Vol on 100... BUT I use Replaygain (which is the same as using the volume control, with one important exception - it can also boost). Across my collection the AlbumReplaygain range is -12dB /+5dB average. So on the loudest albums (which are all heavily compressed loudness wars victims) I'm using 12dB of digital attenuation. On the quietest, I'm boosting the level (pre-dac) by 5dB. I don't believe this has any audible effect other than changing the level. I don't believe that may people on this forum advocate using the full range of the digital attenuation with just a power amp, preferring instead to set the gain-staging correctly via analogue attenuators between dac and amp and using the SB attenuation between 70-100 (and/or replaygain) Your situation is different, since you have a fully digital chain into your amps - so nowhere to insert the analogue attenuation?. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Hi there, i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3 classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB, because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny. HEre are my questions: 1) is this a value concern ? 2) the advice the hifi-shop was to lower the SB-output signal to let say 60-70%)..does this make sense. 3) i read carefully many of your statements...so ...does this advice lower the quality of my singal?...i ususally use FLAC...ripped from normal Audio-CDs 4) is the usage of a DAC a solution that circumvents the volume control of the SB...or may circumvent the problem oror ...does it i am confused please help...or is there a value manual of how the thins working inside the SB classic ? cheers johannes -- johannes johannes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10875 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543050 Wrote: Correct in that example Volume 20 has has 75.8dB of dynamic range. They also note that Volume 20 is 50%. I believe translating that, that would mean 50% of the 0-96dB scale. Or in other words 48dB of attenuation. 8bits of attenuation. For the Volume 30 case. They list that as 75%. Which is the closest value to your example of 80. So you will get close to the performance of Volume 30. At volume 30 you get approx 88dB dynamic range. 2-bits lost at 75% volume. If you want to extrapolate you'd lose something like 1.8bits at 80%. I think I see where you're coming from. If you look at the tests volume 30 is 12.5db of attenuaton but the result is only 7.1db reduction in dynamic range from 40 (max). This is noticeably different to stepping from volume 30 to volume 20, a further 12.5db attenuation but which results in a more expected 11.7db reduction in dynamic range. Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels? I'm not an engineer but I do know this test was performed on a Squeezebox which has an SNR of over 100db. Perhaps someone can step in and explain why the initial drop off is less than 12.5db. Perhaps it is to do with the DAC noise being a further 4db or so lower than -96db (compared to a digital 0db signal)? I would like to see the same test but on a Transporter. This has a SNR of about 120db. Wouldn't the drop in dynamic range be less than with a Squeezebox? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
johannes;543568 Wrote: Hi there, i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3 classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB, because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny. HEre are my questions: 1) is this a value concern ? 2) the advice the hifi-shop was to lower the SB-output signal to let say 60-70%)..does this make sense. 3) i read carefully many of your statements...so ...does this advice lower the quality of my singal?...i ususally use FLAC...ripped from normal Audio-CDs 4) is the usage of a DAC a solution that circumvents the volume control of the SB...or may circumvent the problem oror ...does it i am confused please help...or is there a value manual of how the thins working inside the SB classic ? cheers johannes Johannes, You need to read http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Connect_To_PowerAmp especially section http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Connect_To_PowerAmp#Finally.2C_the_problem_-_line_level_to_input_sensitivity_mismatch You need analogue attenuators. I use Rothwells; a lot of people here recommend Endlers. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543499 Wrote: I thought we had established that we are not losing detail until you've shifted over 4 bits but raising the noise floor out of the DAC (so the quietest sounds get closer to it or even in extreme cases, below it - although you can still hear them). Personally I reckon you can lose 4 more bits than that before you can detect anything in a DBT - we obviously don't agree on this but there have been many tests over the years that indicate people have difficulty telling 16-bit from 16-bit reduced (properly) to 12 or even 10 bits. Anyway, yes I am using an analogue pre-amp, and I have the Vol on 100... BUT I use Replaygain (which is the same as using the volume control, with one important exception - it can also boost). Across my collection the AlbumReplaygain range is -12dB /+5dB average. So on the loudest albums (which are all heavily compressed loudness wars victims) I'm using 12dB of digital attenuation. On the quietest, I'm boosting the level (pre-dac) by 5dB. I don't believe this has any audible effect other than changing the level. I don't believe that may people on this forum advocate using the full range of the digital attenuation with just a power amp, preferring instead to set the gain-staging correctly via analogue attenuators between dac and amp and using the SB attenuation between 70-100 (and/or replaygain) Your situation is different, since you have a fully digital chain into your amps - so nowhere to insert the analogue attenuation?. I never agreed 4 bits were free. In that test Volume 20 is a 4bit shift. If 4bits didn't lose detail you'd still have 96dB of dynamic range. But you get 76 dB. They attenuated 4bits and lost 4bits. I must have said that 6 times now. Replay Gain is a slightly different deal and I rethinking using it myself in a unique way. If you have CD's that are way over compressed they are junk anyway and probably have no low level detail. So you can't make them much worse. Boosting them is fine in fact is good because if a CD has too much headroom it's the same argument that it's better to bring them up to full scale. As long as you don't clip them. However Replay Gain by default uses RMS Volume to decide not Peak Data. So you need to be careful it does not cause significant clipping. Minor occasional clipping is not a big deal. I assume your premium albums have little on replay gain. So it's up to you if want to use it. I personally won't ever attenuate with replay gain. But I might consider boosting with it. But that presents some other complex problems in Meridian land I'm not going into here. We have thread on that topic actually on Meridian Forum. Just one quick comment any time you change volume digitally you need to redither and I'm curious if that happens and who does it. Plugin or SqueezeBox. I removed a 6dB digital attenuation from my system and I can hear the difference. I can't hear Meridian upsampling. I can't hear Merdian apodizing. I can't hear the difference between m...@320kps and flac. But I can hear the loss 6dB digitally does. You can research Meridian spekaers on your own if you want. But effectively they are DAC, Preamp, and ANALOG amps all in one box. It's exactly the same as a conventional setup it's just they put in all one box. They actually have 4 DAC channels and 4 amps in the box. Because they do crossover in digital domain. This allows amps to run 100% efficient compared to passive crossovers and avoid phase problems passive crossovers have. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543576 Wrote: I think I see where you're coming from. If you look at the tests volume 30 is 12.5db of attenuaton but the result is only 7.1db reduction in dynamic range from 40 (max). This is noticeably different to stepping from volume 30 to volume 20, a further 12.5db attenuation but which results in a more expected 11.7db reduction in dynamic range. Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels? Darren Correct. At least some folks are reading. The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543590 Wrote: Correct. At least some folks are reading. The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions. Yeah. My question was about the test results. They're for a Squeezebox but I'd like to see them using a much better performing DAC (e.g. TP). How much would the results change? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543590 Wrote: Correct. At least some folks are reading. The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions. Yeah. My question was about the test results. They're for a Squeezebox but I'd like to see them using a much better performing DAC (e.g. TP). How much would the results change? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543590 Wrote: The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. mswlogo, In principle, I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular DAC is whether this effect impinges materially. Have a look at http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive stuff IMO. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543590 Wrote: The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. mswlogo, In principle, I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular DAC is whether this effect impinges materially. Have a look at http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive stuff IMO. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543596 Wrote: mswlogo, In principle I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular DAC is whether this effect impinges materially. Have a look at http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive stuff IMO. Darren I have a Transporter, great unit. But I don't use it's DACs. I use Meridian DACs. I can hear loss with 6dB attenuation. And so can 22 other Meridian owners. Use analog volume. I really need to get some real work done. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543600 Wrote: I have a Transporter, great unit. But I don't use it's DACs. I use Meridian DACs. I can hear loss with 6dB attenuation. And so can 22 other Meridian owners. Use analog volume. Perhaps the reason is the following: mswlogo;543588 Wrote: Because they do crossover in digital domain. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
johannes;543568 Wrote: Hi there, i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3 classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB, because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny. What do you mean by crashed your amp? Is it physically burnt out or non-operational and needs repair? Or is it just not functioning correctly and needs to be powered down and restarted (as one might think of a computer crash)? Or does it mean something else? I've had a SB3 for several years and used a variety of amps and never had a problem. I know of no ugly signals - if the signal is truly distorted, then reducing volume is not a fix. It is possible the SB3 is bad. The solution there would be to try a different source with the amp (such as a CD player, tuner, etc.) and see if the issue repeats. Also, your issue has virtually nothing to do with this thread. I'd suggest you start a new one that is specific to your issue. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mlsstl;543615 Wrote: What do you mean by crashed your amp? Is it physically burnt out or non-operational and needs repair? Or is it just not functioning correctly and needs to be powered down and restarted (as one might think of a computer crash)? Or does it mean something else? I've had a SB3 for several years and used a variety of amps and never had a problem. I know of no ugly signals - if the signal is truly distorted, then reducing volume is not a fix. It is possible the SB3 is bad. The solution there would be to try a different source with the amp (such as a CD player, tuner, etc.) and see if the issue repeats. Also, your issue has virtually nothing to do with this thread. I'd suggest you start a new one that is specific to your issue. hi, yes i know...but i read about your volume bit discussion and thought this could have an impact on my solution now...to lower the output power of my squeezebox may lowers the quality of my output signal...but i am maybe wrong.. anywhay i change the thread...fanx for your comment by the way...the amp was dead...- back to the supplier :-( johannes -- johannes johannes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10875 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543603 Wrote: Perhaps the reason is the following: Darren For some reason quote did not work. But you said the reason I hear differences is due to digital crossovers. But that is a VERY good point. It probably does impact it. But I'm sure it does not account for all of it. That test clearly shows significant loss due to digital attenuation. Sean has said it, that test shows it. It's not free. Period. How MUCH impact is up to your system and ears. But I bit hear and there is critical in my opinion on any good recording. It won't matter much on crap. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers. It was a really good thought though. It's actually really good example where 24bit helps a lot. The Digital Crossovers will see every pure bit even if it's attenuated. The DSP processing is done in 48bit. Then back to 24bit. It not until it reaches the DAC these performance issues really kick in. They won't be impacted until you attenuate more than 8bits. Could there be a very slight impact yes. But it would be extremely small. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543588 Wrote: I never agreed 4 bits were free. In that test Volume 20 is a 4bit shift. If 4bits didn't lose detail you'd still have 96dB of dynamic range. But you get 76 dB. They attenuated 4bits and lost 4bits. I must have said that 6 times now. Replay Gain is a slightly different deal and I'm rethinking using it myself in a unique way. If you have CD's that are way over compressed they are junk anyway and probably have no low level detail. So you can't make them much worse. Boosting them is fine in fact is good because if a CD has too much headroom it's the same argument that it's better to bring them up to full scale. As long as you don't clip them (significantly). However Replay Gain by default uses RMS Volume to decide not Peak Data. So you need to be careful it does not cause significant clipping. Minor occasional clipping is not a big deal. I assume your premium albums have little or no replay gain. So it's up to you if want to use it. I personally won't ever attenuate with replay gain. But I might consider boosting with it. But that presents some other complex problems in Meridian land I'm not going into here. We have thread on that topic actually on Meridian Forum. Just one quick comment any time you change volume digitally you need to redither and I'm curious if that happens and who does it. Plugin or SqueezeBox. I removed a 6dB digital attenuation from my system and I can hear the difference. I can't hear Meridian upsampling. I can't hear Merdian apodizing. I can't hear the difference between m...@320kps and flac. But I can hear the loss 6dB digitally does. You can research Meridian spekaers on your own if you want. But effectively they are DAC, Preamp, and ANALOG amps all in one box. It's exactly the same as a conventional setup it's just they put it all in one box. They actually have 4 DAC channels and 4 amps in the box. Because they do crossover in digital domain. This allows amps to run 100% efficient compared to passive crossovers and avoid phase problems passive crossovers have. Replaygain does not clip. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543639 Wrote: Replaygain does not clip. It assesses the peaks. Cool. Thanks. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543630 Wrote: For some reason quote did not work. But you said the reason I hear differences is due to digital crossovers. But that is a VERY good point. It probably does impact it. But I'm sure it does not account for all of it. That test clearly shows significant loss due to digital attenuation. Sean has said it, that test shows it. It's not free. Period. How MUCH impact is up to your system and ears. But I bit hear and there is critical in my opinion on any good recording. It won't matter much on crap. What Sean said was very clear... any attenuation increases the noise floor/decreases the SNR. That's all. Did he say you could ALWAYS hear it? - NO. He expressed no opinion on that AFAIK. You keep talking about loss - loss of what? Mathematically until you shift past the 16th bit in the 20-bit effective window you haven't lost anything except SNR. If you can really hear an increase of 6dB in the noise floor from -96dB to -90db then you have exceptional hearing. I can't... and I'm very glad I can't. I don't know anyone who can. Most people on the planet thing that a 75dB SNR is astonishingly good. Until 16-bit digital PCM recording, it was the state of the art. In fact, at best it defines the noise floor of most of your classical recordings (pre 1980's anyway). By the way, I have a fully-active tri-amped system - and STAX SR 4070/SRM727's that are more revealing than both your system or mine. Guess my ears must be shot... or maybe it's the crap I've been listening to? I give up... Off to listen to some music (with or without a bit of extra noise in it). -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543633 Wrote: I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers. It was a really good thought though. It's actually a really good example where 24bit helps a lot. The Digital Crossovers will see every pure bit even if it's attenuated. The DSP processing is done in 48bit. Then back to 24bit. It's not until it reaches the DAC these performance issues really kick in. They won't be impacted until you attenuate more than 8bits. I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less rounding errors). Once the resulting signal is converted to 24 bits and passed to a DAC, won't it be still subject to the 20 bits of dynamic range problem? Do you see why I ask? Or perhaps you could send a link that explains more about the Meridian set up. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543653 Wrote: I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less rounding errors). Once the resulting signal is converted to 24 bits and passed to a DAC, won't it be still subject to the 20 bits of dynamic range problem? Do you see why I ask? Or perhaps you could send a link that explains more about the Meridian set up. Darren Correct, 48 bit just avoids rounding errors. Yes the DSP speaker is still subject to the problems discussed here. You can read about Meridian speakers here http://media.meridian-audio.com/datasheets/papers/DSP-speakers-paper-v2.pdf You will not find a all the details of there though, but some. The rest is spread over different bits of information that some folks have aquired over the years from Meridian. Some of what they do in their processors is the same as what's done in speakers too. And generations have changed. Their newest ones have apodizing filters in their upsampler. But for the life of me I can't hear the difference apodizing adds. Too old I guess. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543646 Wrote: What Sean said was very clear... any attenuation increases the noise floor/decreases the SNR. That's all. Did he say you could ALWAYS hear it? - NO. He expressed no opinion on that AFAIK. You keep talking about loss - loss of what? Mathematically until you shift past the 16th bit in the 20-bit effective window you haven't lost anything except SNR. As soon as you shift down (filling the top end with zeros) you are basically throwing away dynamic range. I call it lost (or under utilized dynamic range that you have available). Call it what ever you like. Correct, Sean does not say how much difference you would actually hear. Just that those 8 bits attenution is not free. There is good reason CD's are 16bit. And why people (even on this forum) think more than 16bits (up to 20) sounds even better. But according to you it's impossible to hear even 16bits. Why bother having DACs that can even do 20bits. Just so you can turn down the freaken volume in digital. I don't think so !!! According to you 12bits is plenty. 6dB is 1 bit. That's a lot out of 16bits. Now if we were talking 20 vs 21 bits it would be different. But 15 vs 16bits. I'll take my 16bits thank you very much. A lot of CD's are not full scale either. There is another bit or so gone. So now on some CD's it's 14 vs 15 bits I'm hearing a difference in. Unless I use something like Replay Gain to bring back up ut back up to full scale. Which I'm think of using. But there are some complications with that in Meridian world (other benefits I don't wish to lose). I could share how to actually compare things but you'll just fight that tooth and nail on that too. So I won't bother. It would be too much of shock for this croud. Enjoy the tunes. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543684 Wrote: As soon as you shift down (filling the top end with zeros) you are basically throwing away dynamic range. I call it lost (or under utilized dynamic range that you have available). Call it what ever you like. Correct, Sean does not say how much difference you would actually hear. Just that those 8 bits attenution is not free. There is good reason CD's are 16bit. And why people (even on this forum) think more than 16bits (up to 20) sounds even better. But according to you it's impossible to hear even 16bits. Why bother having DACs that can even do 20bits. Just so you can turn down the freaken volume in digital. I don't think so !!! According to you 12bits is plenty. 6dB is 1 bit. That's a lot out of 16bits. Now if we were talking 20 vs 21 bits it would be different. But 15 vs 16bits. I'll take my 16bits thank you very much. A lot of CD's are not full scale either. There is another bit or so gone. So now on some CD's it's 14 vs 15 bits (6dB) I'm hearing a difference in. Unless I use something like Replay Gain to bring it back up to full scale. Which I'm think of using. But there are some complications with that in Meridian world (other benefits I don't wish to lose). I could share how to actually compare things but you'll just fight that tooth and nail on that too. So I won't bother. It would be too much of shock for this croud. Enjoy the tunes. The reason CD's are 16-bit is that 96dB of SNR looks so much better on paper than 84 (which is what CD was originally going to be... still better than the 75dB state of the art analogue at the time!) There is nothing in Shannon/Nyquist that talks to the number of bits required to accurately represent anything. What's a bit of noise between friends? This discussion has been about the impact of digital attenuation on 16-bit sources. By definition, 16-bit sources cannot exploit a 20-bit DAC. DVD-A can and it sounds better. I never said otherwise. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543674 Wrote: Correct, 48 bit just avoids rounding errors. Yes the DSP speaker is still subject to the problems discussed here. Once the DSP is done it's still attenuated digitally by the same amount before it goes into the DAC. You can read about Meridian speakers here http://media.meridian-audio.com/datasheets/papers/DSP-speakers-paper-v2.pdf You will not find a all the details of there though, but some. The rest is spread over different bits of information that some folks have aquired over the years from Meridian. Some of what they do in their processors is the same as what's done in speakers too. And generations have changed. Their newest ones have apodizing filters in their upsampler. But for the life of me I can't hear the difference apodizing adds. Too old I guess. Cheers, I've now read that pdf. I don't understand this fully yet. mswlogo;543633 Wrote: I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers. I was looking for something in the pdf which might explain your statement above in particular but I couldn't find anything. Why can't it be the digital crossovers? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats wrote: mswlogo;543633 Wrote: The DSP processing is done in 48bit. I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less rounding errors). Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly, usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they are actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about. When you do as many multiply and add functions as a typical DSP does, and we are talking about tens of thousands, you need to be very careful with the numerical analysis. Its much more complicated than simple rounding of a few bits. This whole thread has been off in the weeds for weeks. A digital volume control is talking about a nearly trivial single multiply or shift function. DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian physics. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
pfarrell;543694 Wrote: DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian physics. You mentioned the Q-word, so the audiophile-specific version of Godwin's Law applies, and I declare this thread closed. Thank God :-) -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
pfarrell;543694 Wrote: darrenyeats wrote: mswlogo;543633 Wrote: The DSP processing is done in 48bit. I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less rounding errors). Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly, usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they are actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about. When you do as many multiply and add functions as a typical DSP does, and we are talking about tens of thousands, you need to be very careful with the numerical analysis. Its much more complicated than simple rounding of a few bits. This whole thread has been off in the weeds for weeks. A digital volume control is talking about a nearly trivial single multiply or shift function. DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian physics. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ Correct a lot of DSP is done in floating point. I'm told by some that know the internals of Meridian stuff better than I do (it's burried in some papers to). That they use 48 bit integer math in the speakers. We are not talking about DSP used for volume but DSP used for Crossovers. And how much that would care if the data was shift down. I'm saying they generally would not care. Whether that math is done in 48bit integer, 72bit integer (which Meridian also uses) or 64bit float. It's the same if you know what your doine. The point is you have all the data and you don't do the crossovers in 24bit integer math. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543693 Wrote: Cheers, I've now read that pdf. I don't understand this fully yet. I was looking for something in the pdf which might explain your statement above in particular but I couldn't find anything. Why can't it be the digital crossovers? Darren Sorry I'm not going to get into computer math and precision. Basically we are still in the digital domain. One signal in attenuated by 6dB. Two signals out split by frequency both attenuated by 6dB. Just like if I turned the volume down digitally 6dB and then back up 6dB digitally on 16bit data in a 24bit word. There would be 0 harm. The digital crossovers have a finite precision. That won't change regardless of what's sent in. It may effect the LSB or two of the full 24bit word. But we are no where near there. It may effect crossovers when you start to attenuate say more than 6bits. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] With current SPDIF receivers ......
Someone forwarded me this thread and asked me to reply, so here goes. :) I think the discussion needs to separate the two ways the effect of jitter is considered. In one case, jitter on a signal can result in an incorrectly sampled value. For example, if the sample clock ticks before a digital signal has fully transitioned (due to some jitter forcing a delay at this boundary) then you've read the wrong value. This is usually where jitter comes up in digital design because it means your computation just failed. In the other case, jitter on a clock (that is still in sync with its signal) will result in incorrectly timed (but correctly performed) signal transitions. The reason this comes up in a DAC is because the clock driving the DAC chip might have jitter on it. This isn't often thought about in a digital circuit because it usually doesn't matter if the answer is produced a few nanoseconds late as long as it's the right answer. Wolfson makes a big deal of the WM8804's buffer and re-clock because otherwise the S/PDIF receiver outgoing signal and/or clock is influenced by the incoming S/PDIF signal. The WM8804 uses a DPLL to ensure it is sampling the S/PDIF 1's and 0's correctly, but doesn't derive the outgoing clock from that DPLL. It does use a separate PLL to lock onto the 12MHz clock (which should be very stable and placed right next to the WM8804) and this is used to generate the MCLK (master clock), LRCLK (left/right word clock - audio sample rate), and BCLK (bit clock) as well as drive the S/PDIF DPLL. The buffer means you don't have to worry about jitter in the S/PDIF data causing you to output incorrect data when the internal clock ticks. It uses an integer multiplier and divider to convert 12MHz to a master clock that is a multiple of the signal sample rate. Wolfson's only claim is that the incoming S/PDIF jitter won't affect the outgoing I2S jitter. There is still jitter; the WM8804's intrinsic output jitter is 50ps. I really do suggest reading the white paper for the buffer and reclock design and measurements, and the datasheet for the clock math. (I can't post links yet since this is my first post.) -- NekoAudio NekoAudio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38042 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73882 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
