Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
RonM;611969 Wrote: A related phenomenon from another realm might be helpful. Consider the placebo effect. It is well-established that a real placebo effect exists. If people believe that a treatment (drug, something else) has been administered, they will on average report symptom alleviation above that reported by people who do not believe they received any treatment. True efficacy of the treatment can only be demonstrated if the treatment effect exceeds that of the placebo effect. Double blind studies are one way of dealing with the situation (everyone believes they are getting the treatment). The question is, do the placebo-receivers actually get better faster than the no-treatment people, or do they simply think they get better? Interesting question. For the most part the placebo effect is most obviously demonstrated in symptom alleviation, e.g. pain. In that case, it could reasonably be said that the placebo had a real effect, in that less pain was actually experienced. Even though no actual pain reliever was administered. It's an entirely psychological effect, but the people experience it as real. Who is to say that it's not a worthwhile strategy? If you're out of pain meds, give a sugar pill to the kid and maybe he or she will actually feel better. For fun, try making an appointment with your Dr and asking to be prescribed some placebo. Mind you it is also available under the alternative brand name homeopathic remedy. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Contrary to what people may think, placebo doesn't lose its effect once you realize it's placebo. I take my placebo pills with a smile. They do make me feel better, and that's what counts. Although homeopathy is way too expensive for me. The sugar pills from my doctor cost me a tenth of the homeopathic ones from my witch doctor. Plus, my doctor has a clue what he's doing, which is kinda comforting. I like the sound from an expensive vinyl player, and I've considered trying to build a cheap electronic box that does roughly the same thing to the sound. But that's a discussion to be had under DIY, and not here, I guess. -- Soulkeeper -that is not dead which can eternal lie. and with strange aeons even death may die.- touch + duet + boom + radio / wrt160n/dd-wrt / sbs 7.5.1 or higher/win7(32b)/avira free Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Soulkeeper;612076 Wrote: Contrary to what people may think, placebo doesn't lose its effect once you realize it's placebo. Maybe the placebo continues to have its effect for some people/situations, but actually it is much more common for the placebo effect to disappear once it is exposed as a placebo. At least that's the case in medical settings -- the literature on audio placebos isn't as vast as the medical literature. (Many would say it's only half-vast.) -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
aubuti;612087 Wrote: (Many would say it's only half-vast.) Grin. -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB3, SB Touch SqueezeControl for Android darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611587 Wrote: You left my dog out of your equation. Was that on purpose? Yes - it's a well-known fact that dogs have no sense of reality. Do you have a cat? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF x-dacv3/x-10/x-psu(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Phil Leigh;611756 Wrote: Yes - it's a well-known fact that dogs have no sense of reality. Do you have a cat? I have two cats. But I always thought that dogs are famous for being able to hear much higher frequencies than we can. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
You could laugh me out but sometimes I ask my wife about or use my cat to determine whether my system reproduces the sound with some reality to it or not. I play some high quality nature sounds like birds etc. and observe reaction of the cat. It's done every time when something is changed in the system, either wiring, or components. Placement of the speakers doesn't matter really. Every test is conducted while the cat is more or less in the same state so I could eliminate factors influencing her judgment. It works every time and my wife's verdict in 99% agrees with cat's. Being very subjective I stopped believing my ears long time ago. Nowadays I prefer to listen to the music rather than analyze frequency spectrum of my system. -- gizek 1st : Transporter Adcom GFP-750 Citation tube monoblocks Proac Response D2; Cardas Neutral Reference 2nd: SB Touch TA2020 Fostex FE207E; Cardas Crosslink gizek's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34337 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611863 Wrote: I have two cats. But I always thought that dogs are famous for being able to hear much higher frequencies than we can. Dogs are indeed good at high frequencies but they are unreliable - they are too easily influenced by their owner and so are not helpful in assessing audiophile matters. Cats on the other hand are brutally honest and not easily manipulated... :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF x-dacv3/x-10/x-psu(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Phil Leigh;611918 Wrote: Dogs are indeed good at high frequencies but they are unreliable - they are too easily influenced by their owner and so are not helpful in assessing audiophile matters. Cats on the other hand are brutally honest and not easily manipulated... :-) Ah, so that's why I can so easily trick my dog into thinking that real sounds are coming out of the speakers, while the cats remain singularly unimpressed! (note to self: get rid of the cats) -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611296 Wrote: One thing not clear to me is why do people insist that our experiences have nothing to do with reality? Aren't our experiences also reality? Or, to put it more bluntly: what else is there other than our experiences? They certainly have a lot to do with the external world, but subjectivity enters the equation as well. I'm certain that people are hearing differences between things like power amplifiers and cables, and in some instances, those differences may be something other than a placebo effect--but those differences correlate to well understood princliples of electrical engineering--things like the output impedance of the power amp/cable combo interacting with a given speaker's imput impeadance. Many audiophiles prize these differences and are will to pay a multi killobuck premium on equipment which delivers such differences, but what they are really hearing are in effect, colorations, introduced by poorly designed equipment (with impressive fronts of course). As Bob Carver proved decades ago, such differences can be easily replicated with low cost components, if that's what the audiophile wants. So the question is why aren't there companies out there offering things like digital preamps with a variety of filters to recreate the experiences of these multi killobuck gear. Could be done for pennies, would enable pleople to experience the palpability of tubes or the presence of vinyl and keep their hard earned bucks. If anyone knows of a vendor selling those kind of digital filters, perhaps they could put the link in this thread. I;m certain if such a product were cheap enough, and could be an add on to squeezebox, I'd be interesting in investing $50 in it, just for kicks. -- Phoenix Media Room: VPI HW-19MK4,Cardas Heart Ruby, Fidelity Research Fr64s tonearm;SB3, Tact RCS 2.0, Benchmark Dac1; Audible Illusions Mk3; Two Bel 1001's Bridged; Aerial Accoustice 10ts. Phoenix's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30484 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
On 17/02/11 21:33, magiccarpetride wrote: Ah, so that's why I can so easily trick my dog into thinking that real sounds are coming out of the speakers, while the cats remain singularly unimpressed! (note to self: get rid of the cats) ...or get a better system ;) R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
A related phenomenon from another realm might be helpful. Consider the placebo effect. It is well-established that a real placebo effect exists. If people believe that a treatment (drug, something else) has been administered, they will on average report symptom alleviation above that reported by people who do not believe they received any treatment. True efficacy of the treatment can only be demonstrated if the treatment effect exceeds that of the placebo effect. Double blind studies are one way of dealing with the situation (everyone believes they are getting the treatment). The question is, do the placebo-receivers actually get better faster than the no-treatment people, or do they simply think they get better? Interesting question. For the most part the placebo effect is most obviously demonstrated in symptom alleviation, e.g. pain. In that case, it could reasonably be said that the placebo had a real effect, in that less pain was actually experienced. Even though no actual pain reliever was administered. It's an entirely psychological effect, but the people experience it as real. Who is to say that it's not a worthwhile strategy? If you're out of pain meds, give a sugar pill to the kid and maybe he or she will actually feel better. So, by analogy, if you make a change in your system and convince yourself that it improves your listening experience, even if nothing actually and demonstrably changed at a measurable level, who are we to say you're a nutbar? I'm referring to the generic you here, not to anyone in particular. Of course, under these circumstances, the favorable listening experience cannot be used to support an argument that such and such a change to a system produces better sound. To do that, you need a more sophisticated and reliable technique than that's what I hear. You need double blind studies. You need measurable differences. You need to avoid mystification and philosophizing. R. -- RonM RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Robin Bowes;611951 Wrote: On 17/02/11 21:33, magiccarpetride wrote: Ah, so that's why I can so easily trick my dog into thinking that real sounds are coming out of the speakers, while the cats remain singularly unimpressed! (note to self: get rid of the cats) or get a better system ;) R. You're right, getting rid of the cats is way more expensive. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611296 Wrote: One thing not clear to me is why do people insist that our experiences have nothing to do with reality? Aren't our experiences also reality? Or, to put it more bluntly: what else is there other than our experiences? The point I am trying to make is that the reality (in the sense you are using it) or otherwise of your experiences is not relevant to the question of whether your experiences are significant data to be accorded much weight in assessing the probability that the changes in your audio system, to which you attribute causal responsibility for your experiences, will if repeated by others consistently lead to similar experiences by them. It is your attribution of causal responsibility for your experiences (and hence the likelihood that others will predictably repeat them) which, rightly or wrongly, some people are inclined to doubt. It does not in any way help to insist that your experiences must be real just because they are your experiences; it is beside the point. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
There are of course 4 realities: yours, mine, everyone else's and actual reality... :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF x-dacv3/x-10/x-psu(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Rick58;611445 Wrote: I have not participated in such things, but if I were to, I would insist that I be allowed to provide the music (say, a CD) that contains elements that I know well, and be allowed to take notes and refer to notes that I might bring. For example, say in the song there is a tambourine line that I perceive as being 5' behind and to the left side of the singer, the singer's voice has a small touch of added artificial reverb that I have perceived as sounding a certain way, etc.. If I cannot hear these things in sufficient detail on the 'reference' system before changes are made, I would not participate. (edit: were you allowed to provide music? take notes? I am actually interested in this in an 'academic' fashion, altho I may not ever agree to participate in such a thing!). Listening to unfamiliar music, systems, rooms and being asked to accurately discern when things change doesn't make any sense to me. There is mention of some DBT or something where folks were supposedly unable to tell when a wire hangar was used as speaker cable, and this is brought up as 'proof' that all cables sound alike ... those kinds of arguments to me show the fallacy of the 'DBT' movement. of course you could use your own music, take notes, etc. And DBT doesn't mean that you listen to a snippit then switch and listen to another snippit. You can listen for weeks at at time to one source or the other. Take notes, etc. The key is that YOU, the listener, don't know which system you are listening to until after you're done with the experiment. Regarding the coat hanger speaker wire, the only point there is that self professed audiophiles were not able to distinguish between high quality speaker wire and a coat hanger in a controlled test. This doesn't mean that there are not cables/wires that can make a difference. But it does illustrate that self awareness is not as good as many people think. -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
I'm pink therefore I'm spam...;) -- WAD62 Cheers Will WAD62's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38506 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Grahame;611448 Wrote: This has been an interesting discussion, But can you be certain of what it is you are hearing, or experiencing? If you are interested I suggest you make some time to watch and listen to the Audio Myths Workshop Video available on youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ Thew original uncompressed audio files are available at http://www.ethanwiner.com/aes/ Pay attention to Jim Johnston (one the world's foremost experts on perceptual encoding) between 1:05 and 5:15, and the demonstration by Poppy Crum (a neuroscientist specialising in the auditory system) between 5:30 and 8:00. More info on Dr. Crum http://www.cogito.org/interviews/InterviewsDetail.aspx?ContentID=17862 It may change your perceptions on this matter :) Thanks for this, a must read for many, but unfortunately, the ego of many will never surrender to what is, but hold with all their might to what they want it to be -- Eriko Eriko's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38520 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Phil Leigh;611511 Wrote: There are of course 4 realities: yours, mine, everyone else's and actual reality... :-) You left my dog out of your equation. Was that on purpose? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
garym;611523 Wrote: of course you could use your own music, take notes, etc. And DBT doesn't mean that you listen to a snippit then switch and listen to another snippit. You can listen for weeks at at time to one source or the other. Take notes, etc. The key is that YOU, the listener, don't know which system you are listening to until after you're done with the experiment.Sounds interesting. I would think that single songs or snippets (switched or not between playback of the same selections) would increase the likelihood of being able to discern the difference. garym;611523 Wrote: Regarding the coat hanger speaker wire, the only point there is that self professed audiophiles were not able to distinguish between high quality speaker wire and a coat hanger in a controlled test. This doesn't mean that there are not cables/wires that can make a difference. But it does illustrate that self awareness is not as good as many people think.The point I was trying to make is that possibly the system was not sufficiently resolving to allow listeners to tell the difference, or, the room/music/situation was unfamiliar enough that the differences were masked, at least as far as the listeners' perceptions. Or maybe in that case, both wires actually did sound the same! -- Rick58 Bits: Azur 840C, Oppo 980H, SB Touch; Squiggles: Thorens TD-145 + Denon DL160; Pre-Heater: McIntosh C220; Heaters: Bottlehead Paramount 300B; Wavemakers: Triangle Titus, NHT SubOne Rick58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42940 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Rick58;611600 Wrote: Sounds interesting. I would think that single songs or snippets (switched or not between playback of the same selections) would increase the likelihood of being able to discern the difference. you can do it either way. So you can do some DBT and/or ABX testing with short snippits, with weeks of listening, and on anything inbetween. If you'd like to play with this, download foobar2000 and the ABX component and do some ABX testing on how well you can distinguish between an mp3 file of various compression levels and a lossless file. I assure you it will be humbling! -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
garym;611617 Wrote: If you'd like to play with this, download foobar2000 and the ABX component and do some ABX testing on how well you can distinguish between an mp3 file of various compression levels and a lossless file. I assure you it will be humbling! This is is when I lost the faith in my own hearing capabilities (along with the video shown above and I was shocked, when trying out the test files there myself). Now I'm in the camp of non-believers - and if anyone tells me there is a difference I want at least some argument and explanation. Don't want to be fooled by myself :D -- bluegaspode Big Screen for great Boxes available now at your AppStore: *'Squeezebox + iPad = SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com)* - -now featuring streaming to iPad!- Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? = why not try my 'Weather Forecast Applet' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73827) Want to use the Headphones with your Controller ? = why not try my 'Headphone Switcher Applet' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67139) Setup: 1x SB-Controller+Receiver (Duet), 1xSB-Boom. 2xSB-Radio Server (7.5.x) running on SheevaPlug (Ubuntu) with attached Western Digital MyBook Essential. bluegaspode's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=31651 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
bluegaspode;611642 Wrote: This is is when I lost the faith in my own hearing capabilities (along with the video shown above and I was shocked, when trying out the test files there myself). Now I'm in the camp of non-believers - and if anyone tells me there is a difference I want at least some argument and explanation. Don't want to be fooled by myself :D Yeah. I hear you -- no pun intended, :-) -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611122 Wrote: Let me turn the tables for a moment here, and ask a pointed question: if, by comparing two audio components side-by-side, you can definitely hear a difference, do you think that difference can be measured? By 'measured' I mean detected using some measuring equipment, preferably with buttons and dials and blinking lights and beeping sounds. In the most ideal case, that measuring device would even be able to print out a histogram. If there really is a difference, yes. If there isn't, then no. The problem lies in the question; hearing is affected by all sorts of things and mostly takes place in the brain where all bets are off. Ears+brain != reality measuring device -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF x-dacv3/x-10/x-psu(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
yes it is another myth that human hearing is more sensitive than measuring. measuring is probably 1000 of times more sensetive or more. The problem is correlation between measurments and experience, how do that difference sound ? why did it sound like this when I did that ? The only thing that is sure is that if no difference of any kind is detected, there is none to be heard either The signal is electrical and acoustical when it leaves the speaker so any *real* change must be in the signal then it can ofcourse be measured. Other things are more can of worms you can actually measure differences between any cable with rather simple equipment. But is that difference significant enough to be heard ? or what kind mechanism are we after ? Then there is always these ambiguous data on what we humans can hear ? 0.5dB ? 0.1dB ? 0.5% THD0.1% THD ? etc For example some speaker wires combined with speakers with really wierd impedance can give significant frequency response drops that are so large that almost anyone can agree that they are in the realm of the possible to hear. But the solution can be a 5$ wire instead of an 3$ one, not an 5000$ silver cable, this can make this a can of worms :)For speaker cable the answer is low impedance with focus on low inductance and resistance C is not so important there. On the other hand the measurable diffs between decent signal cables are so small that one can be in doubt about what can be heard for real ? On the other hand there is so many special design in the audiophile realm re amps etc that effects that should not be there are present, things like a normal EE just assumes is designed away since the 50's ? For example I seen measurments on Holfi CD players where they produce massive distorsion if not conected to thier own preamps with rather odd input impedance 800 Ohm the output circiut does not work well with the typical 10k or 47k input? This is not normal :) . So much of this special equipment is designed (with cargo cult engineering) to make a difference but this is totally random , where does thst leaves us ? On the other hand nobody measure power amps when driving actual speakers, I've seen one such thing done by a magazine in the 90's . These 0.01% thd that you see in all spec sheets becomes something entirely else :) Hint the good amps are still at spec . This is ofcourse what the brands don't want you to see so of-course all thoose spec sheets look the same it's marketing nobody shows crappy measurment's -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
andynormancx;611129 Wrote: That depends entirely on what you mean by definitely hear a difference. As has been discussed many times here before the human brain is a curious thing. Logically, if one is hearing a difference but there isn't actually one, which can very easily happen, then there is no difference that can be measured. If however one is hearing a difference that really is there, then clearly it can be measured (the human ear is just a measuring device after all). Of course whatever non-human measuring device you are using needs to be sensitive enough, accurate enough and precise enough to detect the difference. The difficulty of course comes in knowing whether you are really hearing a difference or just think you are. No amount of us discussing that here is going to come up with a conclusion that everyone is going to remotely agree on as the I have golden ears, my brain is unfoolable, double blind tests confuse my ears and the I can measure everything camps are so diametrically opposed in their beliefs. And yes, I exaggerated those descriptions for comic effect. I wonder whether it might be helpful to consider what sort of personal experiences can usefully be discussed and for what purpose they may usefully be discussed. The radically idealist position (ie that anything you may experience must be real)is beside the point. Most people here are interested in experiences which can be shared and repeated and which can be tied to particular hardware, software changes or tweaks. Someone who experiences audio nirvana believing that a new cable has been inserted into his system when it hasn't may very well deserve our congratulations for having achieved a real state of happiness, but his experience is unlikely to be repeatable and is therefore not helpful. The problem is that we all feel a bit differently every time we hear the same track; it is actually quite difficult to separate out the Heraclitus effect from the impact if any of changes made in the system. This has nothing to do with the reality or otherwise of one's experiences. It does however have everything to do with the question of whether anyone else should be interested in listening to our account of our experiences. [Then of course we can move on to the interesting question of why some folks value some people's reports of their experiences more highly than others'.] Anyway, when you put the question in terms of experiences which are meaningful, the answer is IMHO obvious: any experience which based on a repeatable difference in the properties of the sound waves reaching you should in principle be measurable. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611141 Wrote: See what I'm saying? Even if you haven't changed any component in your system, and are listening to the same track again, something else in your surroundings has changed (including your own conditions), and that change influences how you experience the second replay of the same track. My question is: since you can hear that something is different, can you measure the difference? In that case you are no longer -comparing two audio components side-by-side-, which is how you initially posed the question. Instead you are comparing two different states of a much more complex system. The difference can probably be measured, either qualitatively (yes, qualitative measurement is not an oxymoron) by systematically eliciting from the listener how they felt at different times. Or if you insist on -buttons and dials and blinking lights and beeping sounds-, maybe measurement using something like this: http://www.ece.uah.edu/~jovanov/projects/mmViewer.jpg. But certainly not with microphones or anything hooked up to the audio components. In either case, even if you measure a difference you've changed so many variables that you can't attribute the difference to audio components or any other aspect. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Daverz;611204 Wrote: That's not surprising to me. I'm not as impressed with Atkinson's measurement techniques as some other folks are. I imagine there are measurable aspects of a speaker's subjective performance that escape his methods.I am not saying that JOhn's measurements are the be-all end-all, but that the qualities that give a system/room a sense of (real) *reproduced* depth/space from the recording venue transported to your ear-brain are not measurable, even with SOTA equipment. We haven't discovered the proper measurements for that. There may not be any, as Phil states. I don't know. Maybe one day we will discover one ... Yes, an instrument can CERTAINLY pull a digital radio signal out of something that we don't perceive as such! My hearing is analog, don't know about yours ... -- Rick58 Bits: Azur 840C, Oppo 980H, SB Touch; Squiggles: Thorens TD-145 + Denon DL160; Pre-Heater: McIntosh C220; Heaters: Bottlehead Paramount 300B; Wavemakers: Triangle Titus, NHT SubOne Rick58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42940 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
m1abrams;611185 Wrote: Depth of image, and palpability really have little meaning when it comes to reproducing sound. Soundstage can easily be measured as I already stated. However the issue with soundstage is it has more to do with speaker placement than anything else so while I can measure it in my home the results would not mean much in your home. Same as my setup will sound very different in you home because room acoustics play as much a role in the sound as the equipment. Not true. I was recently auditioning two power amplifiers, side-by-side. Everything else in my listening room remained the same, i.e. speaker positioning etc. While switching from one amp to the other amp, I was consistently noticing big differences in the soundstage. One amp was projecting the performers forward, the other was making them appear as if positioned several feet behind the speakers. How would your ideal measuring apparatus detect those differences? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
adamdea;611231 Wrote: The problem is that we all feel a bit differently every time we hear the same track; it is actually quite difficult to separate out the Heraclitus effect from the impact if any of changes made in the system. This has nothing to do with the reality or otherwise of one's experiences. One thing not clear to me is why do people insist that our experiences have nothing to do with reality? Aren't our experiences also reality? Or, to put it more bluntly: what else is there other than our experiences? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Daverz;611206 Wrote: To take a more active interpretation: I do think that with control over frequency and phase response, say with a DSP, many differences one hears could be reproduced. For example, the differences I hear in midrange presence and how the soundstage is projected when I swap some tubes in my amp. So if I hear you correctly (and I think I do), if we were to measure the characteristics of an ultra high end audio system (say, something worth almost a million bucks), we should be able to store that information and forward it to some mediocre audio system and drive it with that stellar data set, so that it will produce the exact same ultra high end sound? That would indeed be a veritable audio revolution! Think about it for a minute: if we were all to agree that a certain audio chain delivers the absolute best sound reproduction money can buy, why not measure its characteristics, store the measurements in some sort of a repository (like, on wikipedia, or wikileaks), and then use those golden measurements to drive any other sub standard systems? That would be like delivering a virtual server, a virtual desktop, a virtual high end audio chain. Emulate the best of the best on a shoestring budget. Hey guys, this sounds like one of them get rich quick schemes. Who's with me? Let's make millions overnight! -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611298 Wrote: So if I hear you correctly (and I think I do), if we were to measure the characteristics of an ultra high end audio system (say, something worth almost a million bucks), we should be able to store that information and forward it to some mediocre audio system and drive it with that stellar data set, so that it will produce the exact same ultra high end sound? ...Let's make millions overnight! It's been done and it works for amplifiers - but there was something wrong with the business model regarding those millions... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver#Amplifier_modeling Regards, Kim -- krochat krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611294 Wrote: One amp was projecting the performers forward, the other was making them appear as if positioned several feet behind the speakers. How would your ideal measuring apparatus detect those differences? By comparing the electrical output of the two amps. You do realise there isn't any magic involved don't you ? Either there is a real difference in the output of the amps and thus the sound, which would then be measurable (either by listening to the speakers or sampling the electrical output of the amps) or there isn't. -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
andynormancx;611319 Wrote: By comparing the electrical output of the two amps. You do realise there isn't any magic involved don't you ? Either there is a real difference in the output of the amps and thus the sound, which would then be measurable (either by listening to the speakers or sampling the electrical output of the amps) or there isn't. Don't forget you may need to examine it as a system and not individual components. The difference in sound could be due to one amplifier interacting with the speakers differently than the other. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611298 Wrote: So if I hear you correctly (and I think I do), Always a bad assumption to make. if we were to measure the characteristics of an ultra high end audio system (say, something worth almost a million bucks), we should be able to store that information and forward it to some mediocre audio system and drive it with that stellar data set, so that it will produce the exact same ultra high end sound? Oh noes, did I really claim all that? I only meant in the context of my own system. Instead of changing that tube, if I could tweak frequency and phase response between 20-20k Hz, I think the differences might be reproducible, assuming both tubes are functioning properly, with low noise and distortion. Having to deal with different kinds of speakers sort of ruins the whole hypothesis since they introduce so much distortion. And then there are room interactions and everything goes to hell. But assuming the same speakers, electronics with low noise and distortion, with no clipping, and no out of band oddities, I think I might be willing to say, yes, you could reproduce the sound. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Daverz;611338 Wrote: Always a bad assumption to make. That was a Seinfeld quote. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611296 Wrote: One thing not clear to me is why do people insist that our experiences have nothing to do with reality? Aren't our experiences also reality? Or, to put it more bluntly: what else is there other than our experiences? I have participated in some blind testing and in some ways THAT is something that cannot be explained academically but rather it has to be experienced to be understood. When you're listening and you don't know what you're listening to...well, it's a bit exciting and a bit humbling too. And when I found out the scores at the end, I felt shocked. Definitely changed my attitude to audio. If you haven't done a proper double blind test I couldn't recommend anything more highly. For me, it was for digital sources and indeed these tend to be the most similar in performance and, happily, the easiest to blind test. Try it before you knock it! Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB3, SB Touch SqueezeControl for Android darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
darrenyeats;611376 Wrote: I have participated in some blind testing and in some ways THAT is something that cannot be explained academically but rather it has to be experienced to be understood. When you're listening and you don't know what you're listening to...well, it's a bit exciting and a bit humbling too. And when I found out the scores at the end, I felt shocked. Definitely changed my attitude to audio. If you haven't done proper double blind listening I couldn't recommend anything more highly. For me, it was for digital sources and indeed these tend to be the most similar in performance and, happily, the easiest to blind test. Try it before you knock it! Darren Oh no! Please don't get MCR started on double blind or ABX testing. ;-) -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
garym;611399 Wrote: Oh no! Please don't get MCR started on double blind or ABX testing. ;-) Thought I'd light the touch paper! -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB3, SB Touch SqueezeControl for Android darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Unless I missed it, this thread is incomplete without a reference to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. If you can measure it, you've changed it, so you're no longer measuring the original it (and before the quantum mechanics folks jump on me, yes I know that is a superficial description). But this short video on the subject is fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTiEXMUVxygNR=1 -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
garym;611399 Wrote: Oh no! Please don't get MCR started on double blind or ABX testing. ;-) Why not? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611413 Wrote: Why not? note the smiley face. I don't care if you talk about it obviously, you've made your position on this known in several other threads.but not being repetitive is certainly not a requirement on these forums! -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
garym;611415 Wrote: note the smiley face. I don't care if you talk about it obviously, you've made your position on this known in several other threads.but not being repetitive is certainly not a requirement on these forums! Repetitio ist mater studiorum. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611424 Wrote: Repetitio ist mater studiorum. No it's not - it requires the intellect of your average canine ;) -- Stratmangler There is no element of personal attack in my response. Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
garym;611403 Wrote: Unless I missed it, this thread is incomplete without a reference to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. The HUP simply does not apply to this kind of macroscopic, essentially classical system. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
darrenyeats;611376 Wrote: I have participated in some blind testing and in some ways THAT is something that cannot be explained academically but rather it has to be experienced to be understood. When you're listening and you don't know what you're listening to...well, it's a bit exciting and a bit humbling too. And when I found out the scores at the end, I felt shocked. Definitely changed my attitude to audio. If you haven't done proper double blind listening I couldn't recommend anything more highly. For me, it was for digital sources and indeed these tend to be the most similar in performance and, happily, the easiest to blind test. Try it before you knock it! DarrenI have not participated in such things, but if I were to, I would insist that I be allowed to provide the music (say, a CD) that contains elements that I know well, and be allowed to take notes and refer to notes that I might bring. For example, say in the song there is a tambourine line that I perceive as being 5' behind and to the left side of the singer, the singer's voice has a small touch of added artificial reverb that I have perceived as sounding a certain way, etc.. If I cannot hear these things in sufficient detail on the 'reference' system before changes are made, I would not participate. Listening to unfamiliar music, systems, rooms and being asked to accurately discern when things change doesn't make any sense to me. There is mention of some DBT or something where folks were supposedly unable to tell when a wire hangar was used as speaker cable, and this is brought up as 'proof' that all cables sound alike ... those kinds of arguments to me show the fallacy of the 'DBT' movement. -- Rick58 Bits: Azur 840C, Oppo 980H, SB Touch; Squiggles: Thorens TD-145 + Denon DL160; Pre-Heater: McIntosh C220; Heaters: Bottlehead Paramount 300B; Wavemakers: Triangle Titus, NHT SubOne Rick58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42940 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
This has been an interesting discussion, But can you be certain of what it is you are hearing, or experiencing? If you are interested I suggest you make some time to watch and listen to the Audio Myths Workshop Video available on youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ Thew original uncompressed audio files are available at http://www.ethanwiner.com/aes/ Pay attention to Jim Johnston (one the world's foremost experts on perceptual encoding) between 1:05 and 5:15, and the demonstration by Poppy Crum (a neuroscientist specialising in the auditory system) between 5:30 and 8:00. More info on Dr. Crum http://www.cogito.org/interviews/InterviewsDetail.aspx?ContentID=17862 It may change your perceptions on this matter :) -- Grahame Grahame's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1200 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
That depends entirely on what you mean by definitely hear a difference. As has been discussed many times here before the human brain is a curious thing. Logically, if one is hearing a difference but there isn't actually one, which can very easily happen, then there is no difference that can be measured. If however one is hearing a difference that really is there, then clearly it can be measured (the human ear is just a measuring device after all). Of course whatever non-human measuring device you are using needs to be sensitive enough, accurate enough and precise enough to detect the difference. The difficulty of course comes in knowing whether you are really hearing a difference or just think you are. No amount of us discussing that here is going to come up with a conclusion that everyone is going to remotely agree on as the I have golden ears, my brain is unfoolable, double blind tests confuse my ears and the I can measure everything camps are so diametrically opposed in their beliefs. And yes, I exaggerated those descriptions for comic effect. -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
andynormancx;611129 Wrote: Logically, if one is hearing a difference but there isn't actually one, which can very easily happen, then there is no difference that can be measured. That's the gist of my question: when you say but there isn't actually one, on whose authority are you claiming that there isn't one? The way you've posited things, it would appear that you firmly believe that there is some authority out there, some impartial 3rd party, that is absolutely non-subjective, absolutely infallible, and can be fully trusted. That authority can then point out the error of our ways to us. This smacks of religious fanaticism. Yes, if you indeed believe that God exists, he is omnipresent and omniscient, then you can ask God whether the difference is really there, and God will tell you with 100% certainty. But you'd be tarred, feathered and laughed out of any engineering-infested forum, such as this one, if you were to claim such findings, no? So, in the absence of the All Knowing God, who else can be that 100% infallible? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
No I was talking about the logical situation when there really is no difference but one thinks they can here one. Can you not see the logical argument ? Or do you really believe that not a single human has ever made a change to a hifi setup which made no actual change yet they thought they perceived a difference ? -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
I had a job at a company no longer in business, Voice of Music (union kill them). My job was to repair audio equipment being rejected by QA. They QAed every piece of stereo equipment. We used tone generators and a Ballantine meters. The meter was used to measure distortion at a given reference level. I believe that that is an accurate way to measure sound quality. It takes a 3Db change in sound to be heard by the average person. It is also known that if a change is made that is suppose to improve things our mind has a tendency to fool us. I have been fooled thinking the sound was better to find out later the change had not taken affect. Meters and scopes do not lie if their calibration has been certified. -- vs27 vs27's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41655 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
andynormancx;611139 Wrote: No I was talking about the logical situation when there really is no difference but one thinks they can here one. Can you not see the logical argument ? Or do you really believe that not a single human has ever made a change to a hifi setup which made no actual change yet they thought they perceived a difference ? No, I got your argument. All I'm saying is that it is impossible for change not to be present. In other words, there is ALWAYS a difference. From moment to moment, things constantly change. Ancient Greek philosopher Heraclitus said that a man cannot enter the same river twice. See what I'm saying? Even if you haven't changed any component in your system, and are listening to the same track again, something else in your surroundings has changed (including your own conditions), and that change influences how you experience the second replay of the same track. My question is: since you can hear that something is different, can you measure the difference? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
On 14/02/11 22:31, magiccarpetride wrote: In other words, there is ALWAYS a difference. From moment to moment, things constantly change. Ancient Greek philosopher Heraclitus said that a man cannot enter the same river twice. See what I'm saying? Even if you haven't changed any component in your system, and are listening to the same track again, something else in your surroundings has changed (including your own conditions), and that change influences how you experience the second replay of the same track. My question is: since you can hear that something is different, can you measure the difference? A very interesting example you give here, and I think you're on to something. I agree, hearing is a subjective thing. Your ears send msgs to your brain which interfaces with your conscious and sub-conscious thought and enables you to decide what you think you hear. Measurement can't account for that. It can only detect physical changes. Therefore, there are obviously going to be situations where you really do *hear* something different, but there has been no *physical* change. ie. the difference is all in your mind. That doesn't make it any less real than a physical change but goes some way to explaining the difference between the two camps in the audiophile vs. objectivist debate. Nice one. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
vs27;611140 Wrote: I had a job at a company no longer in business, Voice of Music (union kill them). My job was to repair audio equipment being rejected by QA. They QAed every piece of stereo equipment. We used tone generators and a Ballantine meters. The meter was used to measure distortion at a given reference level. I believe that that is an accurate way to measure sound quality. It takes a 3Db change in sound to be heard by the average person. It is also known that if a change is made that is suppose to improve things our mind has a tendency to fool us. I have been fooled thinking the sound was better to find out later the change had not taken affect. Meters and scopes do not lie if their calibration has been certified. Interesting explanation. So, in the measuring environment you've described here, were you guys able to measure the differences in the soundstage that two audio systems project? Like, you could have 2 audio systems playing the same track at the exact same loudness, and one will portray a soundstage that looks completely different than the soundstage portrayed by the other audio system. Surely you've been in situations where you've experienced this? (some systems tend to be more 'forward' sounding whilst other systems may present musicians as if they're a few feet 'behind' the speakers) In which case, how do you measure that? What is your meter showing, what is your oscilloscope showing? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Robin Bowes;611152 Wrote: Therefore, there are obviously going to be situations where you really do *hear* something different, but there has been no *physical* change. ie. the difference is all in your mind. That doesn't make it any less real than a physical change but goes some way to explaining the difference between the two camps in the audiophile vs. objectivist debate. Exactly. Ingesting a mind-altering substance (alcohol, drugs) can change the perception, with no physical change in the stimulus, be it sight, sound, smell, taste, or touch. -- Ron Olsen Ron Olsen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9233 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611141 Wrote: Even if you haven't changed any component in your system, and are listening to the same track again, something else in your surroundings has changed (including your own conditions), and that change influences how you experience the second replay of the same track. The problem with your illustration is it has nothing to do with audio equipment. Rather it deals with epistemological issues that are better suited to philosophical discussions than measurement. Your subjective experience, influenced by time of day, your mood, your immediately preceding experience and dozens of other factors that have nothing to do with the physical state of the stereo equipment, cannot be transferred to others. They cannot even be precisely replicated for you, so there is nothing to measure. If your original question includes all of those non-audio variables, you have constructed a question that cannot be answered. If you limit the question to physical changes in the stereo that change what a person hears, then yes, I believe it probably can be measured. However, it would be a challenge with current technology to assume that we've spotted everything that can be measured. The problem is that many listeners cannot be content with simply having an experience. They want to elevate their personal observation to some type of universal certainty. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
mlsstl;611160 Wrote: The problem with your illustration is it has nothing to do with audio equipment. Rather it deals with epistemological issues that are better suited to philosophical discussions than measurement. Your subjective experience, influenced by time of day, your mood, your immediately preceding experience and dozens of other factors that have nothing to do with the physical state of the stereo equipment, cannot be transferred to others. They cannot even be precisely replicated for you, so there is nothing to measure. If your original question includes all of those non-audio variables, you have constructed a question that cannot be answered. If you limit the question to physical changes in the stereo that change what a person hears, then yes, I believe it probably can be measured. However, it would be a challenge with current technology to assume that we've spotted everything that can be measured. The problem is that many listeners cannot be content with simply having an experience. They want to elevate their personal observation to some type of universal certainty. If we disregard the epistemological aspect for a moment (even though we cannot really disregard it, but humor me on this one anyway), and focus on what you call 'physical state of the stereo equipment', even there the physical state is not the same from moment to moment. All else remaining equal, the physical state is subject to variations of infinite number of variables affecting it. As for people who want to elevate their personal observation to some type of universal certainty, I think IF such people indeed exist, they are absolutely mad. They need to be seriously examined and heavily medicated if that indeed is the case with them. Let's hope that there aren't many such people around us, or else we'd be in a deep shit! -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611154 Wrote: Interesting explanation. So, in the measuring environment you've described here, were you guys able to measure the differences in the soundstage that two audio systems project? Like, you could have 2 audio systems playing the same track at the exact same loudness, and one will portray a soundstage that looks completely different than the soundstage portrayed by the other audio system. Surely you've been in situations where you've experienced this? (some systems tend to be more 'forward' sounding whilst other systems may present musicians as if they're a few feet 'behind' the speakers) In which case, how do you measure that? What is your meter showing, what is your oscilloscope showing? Soundstage is almost always a result of timing shift in various frequencies. This can be measured. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
m1abrams;611162 Wrote: Soundstage is almost always a result of timing shift in various frequencies. This can be measured. OK, but how? How do you propose measuring that? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611163 Wrote: OK, but how? How do you propose measuring that? Use a frequency sweep and measure the time delay for the different frequency. Not hard stuff here. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
As it was said, our brain is under the constant influence of the countless factors manipulating our experience of hearing. We simply can't hear with only our eardrums. If that was possible, I think, we would be able to hear very objectively and measure real changes in the sound. Unfortunately or not, our hearing sense is much more complex since signals from eardrum are processed within our brain where they are mixed with other data. Try to listen to some audiophile quality music while there is strong light directed into your eyes or you're in the dead freezing temperature... I guess you got my point. No device will measure what you feel. Now, what about things you can measure but you can't hear ? Even my cheap oscilloscope can register some electromagnetic changes of the interconnects while they move up and down. I can't hear that in my system. -- gizek very good music Transporter Adcom GFP-750 Citation II tube monoblocks Proac Response D2; Cardas Neutral Reference all over gizek's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34337 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611122 Wrote: Let me turn the tables for a moment here, and ask a pointed question: if, by comparing two audio components side-by-side, you can definitely hear a difference, do you think that difference can be measured? By 'measured' I mean detected using some measuring equipment, preferably with buttons and dials and blinking lights and beeping sounds. In the most ideal case, that measuring device would even be able to print out a histogram.Not necessarily. I don't believe that qualities such as soundstage, depth of image, palpability, etc., are able to be measured using methodologies discussed here. IF they were, why aren't companies/review mags publishing such results? I value imaging, depth of soundstage, etc. very much. If I could be assured that component 'A' gives 30% more soundstage depth than 'B' at a comparable price (or whatever premium I am willing to pay) that knowledge would be of great value when making purchasing decisions. -- Rick58 Bits: Azur 840C; Squiggles: Thorens TD-145; Pre-Heater: McIntosh C220; Heater: Bottlehead Paramount 300B; Wavemakers: Triangle Titus, NHT Sub Rick58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42940 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Rick58;611173 Wrote: Not necessarily. I don't believe that qualities such as soundstage, depth of image, palpability, etc., are able to be measured using methodologies discussed here. IF they were, why aren't companies/review mags publishing such results? I value imaging, depth of soundstage, etc. very much. If I could be assured that component 'A' gives 30% more soundstage depth than 'B' at a comparable price (or whatever premium I am willing to pay) that knowledge would be of great value when making purchasing decisions. Depth of image, and palpability really have little meaning when it comes to reproducing sound. Soundstage can easily be measured as I already stated. However the issue with soundstage is it has more to do with speaker placement than anything else so while I can measure it in my home the results would not mean much in your home. Same as my setup will sound very different in you home because room acoustics play as much a role in the sound as the equipment. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611161 Wrote: If we disregard the epistemological aspect for a moment (even though we cannot really disregard it, but humor me on this one anyway), and focus on what you call 'physical state of the stereo equipment', even there the physical state is not the same from moment to moment. All else remaining equal, the physical state is subject to variations of infinite number of variables affecting it. If you expand consideration of the physical state of the equipment to the level you suggest, you're still chasing an impossible mix of minute variables. Just change your name to Peter Belt... ;-) -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
m1abrams;611185 Wrote: Depth of image, and palpability really have little meaning when it comes to reproducing sound.Huh? I think the perception of the recording space and how real the instruments/voices sound has a very large meaning. At least to me they do! These qualities are, I believe, independent for the most part of frequency response and other things that are measureable. m1abrams;611185 Wrote: Soundstage can easily be measured as I already stated.Sorry, I don't believe that soundstage parameters can be measured in the manner which you state. If that is true, please contact Stereophile, Absolute Sound, and any/all other magazines and also equipment manufacturers. I am sure they would all be interested. These things are usually reported on by the reviewers, and the information is gathered by *listening*. The measurements can sometimes explain gross differences in sonics, but I haven't ever seen a definitive measurement that quantifies how deep a soundstage is presented by any equipment in any room, or explains why item 'A' provides a deeper soundstage than item 'B' in the same room and with the same ancillary equipment. m1abrams;611185 Wrote: However the issue with soundstage is it has more to do with speaker placement than anything else so while I can measure it in my home the results would not mean much in your home. Same as my setup will sound very different in you home because room acoustics play as much a role in the sound as the equipment. Sure, I agree things will sound different, and the room, speaker placement, and everything else affects how things are perceived. I am not saying your setup will sound the same as mine nor anyone else's. But, as someone stated, amplifier 'A' may present a deeper/more recessed soundstage than amplifier 'B' even tho power output, FR, etc., etc. are all measurably 'identical'. I do not believe we have measurements for these types of perceptions at this time. -- Rick58 Bits: Azur 840C, Oppo 980H, SB Touch; Squiggles: Thorens TD-145 + Denon DL160; Pre-Heater: McIntosh C220; Heaters: Bottlehead Paramount 300B; Wavemakers: Triangle Titus, NHT SubOne Rick58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42940 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Rick58;611193 Wrote: I haven't ever seen a definitive measurement that quantifies how deep a soundstage is presented by any equipment in any room, or explains why item 'A' provides a deeper soundstage than item 'B' in the same room and with the same ancillary equipment. Actually, the closest I have seen is Stereophile measurements of two speaker systems in the same room, same ancillary equipment, etc.; one had a miniscule 'dip' in the midrange compared to the other. John A. speculated (and admitted it was only that) that this midrange dip resulted in a more recessed-sounding soundstage. John has measured more speakers than about anyone in the world, and speakers measure more differently in FR, impulse response, dispersion, impedance, phase shift, and every other parameter there is (compared to say modern SS power amps). IF anyone could 'see' a pattern linking measurements with perceived soundstage depth, palpability, etc., one would thnk it would be him. He has stated in broad terms about measurements 'tending' to support a certain sonic characteristic, but a definitive measurement-characteristic link? Again, if there was one, he would be the one to define it. -- Rick58 Bits: Azur 840C, Oppo 980H, SB Touch; Squiggles: Thorens TD-145 + Denon DL160; Pre-Heater: McIntosh C220; Heaters: Bottlehead Paramount 300B; Wavemakers: Triangle Titus, NHT SubOne Rick58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42940 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Rick58;611198 Wrote: ... there is nothing in the NP 2.0's measured performance that reveals how it manages to throw that enormous soundstage. That's not surprising to me. I'm not as impressed with Atkinson's measurement techniques as some other folks are. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611122 Wrote: Let me turn the tables for a moment here, and ask a pointed question: if, by comparing two audio components side-by-side, you can definitely hear a difference, do you think that difference can be measured? By 'measured' I mean detected using some measuring equipment, preferably with buttons and dials and blinking lights and beeping sounds. In the most ideal case, that measuring device would even be able to print out a histogram. Yes, there are many many cases that prove this. Given the good DSP software these days, a crappy 1ghz laptop, and the internal sound card in the laptop. Hook up a ham radio to that crap audio rig and you can display and decode digital radio signals that you wouldn't be able to pick out of the noise with your ears. Things like audio diffmaker can pull out differences in audio that you probably wouldn't be able to hear yourself without the computer help in comparing. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
magiccarpetride;611122 Wrote: Let me turn the tables for a moment here, and ask a pointed question: if, by comparing two audio components side-by-side, you can definitely hear a difference, do you think that difference can be measured? By 'measured' I mean detected using some measuring equipment, preferably with buttons and dials and blinking lights and beeping sounds. In the most ideal case, that measuring device would even be able to print out a histogram. To take a more active interpretation: I do think that with control over frequency and phase response, say with a DSP, many differences one hears could be reproduced. For example, the differences I hear in midrange presence and how the soundstage is projected when I swap some tubes in my amp. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] If you can hear it, can you measure it?
Soundstage, depth and height cannot be measured because they do not exist except as constructs within the human mind when listening to a stereo system that is trying to create the illusion that they do exist. NB I'm not talking about Soundfield recording/playback here, just normal stereo. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF x-dacv3/x-10/x-psu(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85681 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
