RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Cornillon, Matthieu \(Consultant\)]

Hi, all.  I've been just an observer on this very interesting thread,
with little to contribute in favor of either idea.  However, in reading
through the 73 (!) posts I had not yet seen when I came in today,
something striking occurred to me.  

I saw the two camps as Keep display code separate from application code
(i.e., no HTML in Application.cfm) and Mix as necessary.  I
understand very well the instinct of the latter camp in asking questions
like, Yeah, okay, but *why not* mix them? because I have remnants of
that instinct myself: from about six weeks ago before I took a Java
programming course that was heavy on straight OOP theory as well as the
Java specifics themselves.  After realizing this, I saw that just about
every e-mail I read came out like this:

If is was from the mix as necessary camp, I felt my instincts from six
weeks ago kick in.

If it was from the keep display code separate from application code
camp, I felt my new feelings kick in.  

Why do I bother writing this?  Well, I think it is interesting to note
that what really changed my mind on this was immersion in a fully OO
environment.  I would guess that those of us (myself very much included)
who have treated ColdFusion as a purely procedural language are more
likely to mix as necessary.  But once you've tasted OO, doing such
starts to turn the stomach.  Because of some silly ups and downs, I may
never directly use the Java training that I got, but even if I never do,
I suspect that it will make me a much better ColdFusion developer.  

For those of you who--like me a few weeks ago--have not checked out OO,
I strongly recommend you do some reading.  There is a stunningly good (I
say stunningly good because it is completely free) ground-up
introduction to programming that uses Java as its language and focuses
on OO available at:

http://math.hws.edu/javanotes/

Just the ramblings of an observer.

Matthieu

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Snake]

Lol, yea she gave up on that site, I was trying to teach her some basic web
design, but she lost interest.
Every rose was always my song :-) 

-Original Message-
From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 02 January 2006 02:38
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

was looking at your pix (btw~ your wifes site has a nice dsn cant be found
error) and I just starting sing every rose has it's thorn.

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 1:19 PM
To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm 

I'm afraid you have lost me. Aqua-net ? 

-Original Message-
From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01 January 2006 17:30
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

nope but you are more than welcome to come over and give it a try ;) Nice
hair btw~ haha damn that was worse then what I had back in the day, should
change your motto from snakepit to aqua-net pit... haha

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Snake 
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:44 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm 

Understatement.
Hasn't anyone come round your house and kicked your ass yet :-)





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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Jennifer Gavin-Wear]

I don't suppose dreamweaver templates would work?  They do for me, but I'm
not working with 2400 pages!

Jenny

-Original Message-
From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 31 December 2005 20:10
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


Separating anything wasn't the question of this topic... it's how to include
something in 2400 pages easily




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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Jennifer Gavin-Wear]

Oh my, I'm going to agree with Russ ;)!  Happy new year Russ :-)

-Original Message-
From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01 January 2006 01:30
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


To which you say.
OK go with x, and then when your not happy with the work, come and pay me to
do it properly.

-Original Message-
From: Jennifer Gavin-Wear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 31 December 2005 17:06
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

lol Ade .. which is often followed by and we've been quoted half that price
by x .




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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Snake]

Great minds think alike
Or perhaps were both just short on patience with clients. :-)
But I have told a few to bugger off then, and they have come crawling back.

Happy new year to u too. 

-Original Message-
From: Jennifer Gavin-Wear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 January 2006 11:49
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

Oh my, I'm going to agree with Russ ;)!  Happy new year Russ :-)

-Original Message-
From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01 January 2006 01:30
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


To which you say.
OK go with x, and then when your not happy with the work, come and pay me to
do it properly.

-Original Message-
From: Jennifer Gavin-Wear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 31 December 2005 17:06
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

lol Ade .. which is often followed by and we've been quoted half that price
by x .






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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Snake]

Understatement.
Hasn't anyone come round your house and kicked your ass yet :-)

-Original Message-
From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 January 2006 01:46
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

lol sh***tt
hey im ok and fun, just short tempered lol

its will. between his shittin himself and having to stop at every rest
stop (since he has a thing for those) I sure do feel for bobby!

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 8:35 PM
To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm 

Imagine a road trip with Will and Dave  

-Original Message-
From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 31 December 2005 20:10
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

Separating anything wasn't the question of this topic... it's how to include
something in 2400 pages easily (by the time you started posting anyway)...
and in this case it would be done easily with Application.cfm (you've
agreed) but separating milk from eggs or planting trees or spooning with
your doctor has nothing to do with anything CF related which... btw.. is the
language in question... not English. You want to say something without
actually saying it? Use pseudo code, examples and experiences.

 I don't think any of the responses to the original poster said that 
 doing this would break anything

I don't recall saying otherwise... but the only reason I can think of for
absolutley excluding a possible solution is that it would 'break'
something... not because it might put an html tag in the 'business logic' of
your HTML application. I was merely pointing out that it would not break it.

 Uh, you know, I thought Silent Bob was ... silent?

Just a side note but... Kevin Smith (Silent Bob) talks in every movie he's
ever been in

 It is NOT all preferences and habits. Or at least, it shouldn't be.

Why shouldn't it be? Because it's not your preference?

 there's a body of knowledge that's been built up by the experiences 
 and study of others.

Who? Trees, acorns, ill-equipped doctors and well organized refridgerators?

 In the case of the original poster, I'd probably do the same thing as 
 he's

 doing. But if I were building the application from scratch, I probably 
 wouldn't.

He probably wouldn't either after this little 2400 page adventure.

I guess the best 'saying' for Tim and his 2400 pages in this case would
be... You can't polish a turd so just use your Application.cfm to fix your
problem. 

Now you know that in the future you'll want to be a little more mindful of
an applications growth and scalability no matter how small you THINK its
going to 'stay' because things just don't always work out the way we expect
them to. Now you have your own experience and study to base your decisions
on and don't have to rely on spooning your dentist.

 If you don't think that's a worthy topic of discussion

You have to wait for me to say it before you are allowed to insinuate that I
said or thought it. ;-)

But he's seen the good and bad side of both and will make his choice as to
the best solution for him and his next application... and THAT... is a
preference no matter where you let your doctor stick his eating utensils.

Of course, I may just be a little bitter since I started reading a 60 post
strong thread that started out OK, got weak, then got better and then turned
to shit... and just decided I wanted to spruce up the ending a little...
maaayb

And mybe im just bitter because I have to go on a road trip with Will
(Who, incidentally, has went through the spoon procedure with his doctor and
now has huge gas problems...)

 ;-) 

.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com





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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[dave]

nope but you are more than welcome to come over and give it a try ;)
Nice hair btw~ haha damn that was worse then what I had back in the day, should 
change your motto from snakepit to aqua-net pit... haha

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/
http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:44 AM
To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm 

Understatement.
Hasn't anyone come round your house and kicked your ass yet :-)





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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 the entire ITIL suite of best practices
is built up from the experience of professionals who have seen what
goes wrong when alternative practices are followed.

All this is very nice in theory, but it does not prevent anyone from 
making the mistake
of applying the conclusions of those professionals to situations that do 
not qualify
and are different from the one the professionals got their experience with.

-- 
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 Claude's question was what is the value of separating presentation 
logic from application logic?

Exact, however it was still under the subject of separating presentation 
logic from application logic
IN THE APPLICATION.CFM file, which I'm still not convinced about.

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Snake]

I'm afraid you have lost me. Aqua-net ? 

-Original Message-
From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 January 2006 17:30
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

nope but you are more than welcome to come over and give it a try ;) Nice
hair btw~ haha damn that was worse then what I had back in the day, should
change your motto from snakepit to aqua-net pit... haha

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:44 AM
To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm 

Understatement.
Hasn't anyone come round your house and kicked your ass yet :-)







~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[dave]

was looking at your pix (btw~ your wifes site has a nice dsn cant be found 
error) and I just starting sing every rose has it's thorn.

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/
http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 1:19 PM
To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm 

I'm afraid you have lost me. Aqua-net ? 

-Original Message-
From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 January 2006 17:30
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

nope but you are more than welcome to come over and give it a try ;) Nice
hair btw~ haha damn that was worse then what I had back in the day, should
change your motto from snakepit to aqua-net pit... haha

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Snake 
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:44 AM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm 

Understatement.
Hasn't anyone come round your house and kicked your ass yet :-)



~|
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 Why do we have neat little plastic things to keep our knives, forks, 
and spoons
separate?  It's all organization.

The problem is not with idea of separating, the problem is with what 
you are separating
Beside forks and spoons, certain religious persons also have two fridges 
and two sinks in their
kitchen, because they separate milk products from meat...
I'm not sure it is considered as best practice by many other people.

Everybody separate things in applications.
I separate data entry forms from database update templates, from search 
results, etc...
Separating logic from display may be good in theory, but it just does 
not correspond to reality
when dynamic HTML is involved. If there is no logic in dynamic HTML, 
then it's not dynamic anymore.

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bobby Hartsfield]

 Just as mighty oaks from little acorns grow

 You will not make an extreme look any beter just by showing how stupid 
is the opposite extreme ;-)


what is this? CF_FotuneCookie_Talk? You're BOTH right and arguing/debating
about it until your both blue in the face is not going to help anyone. It
all boils down to experience and preference in the end... p-e-r-i-o-d. Cute
little anecdotes or Mr. Miagi/Yoda/Silent Bob like sayings won't change it.

Organize EVERYTHING in a manner that best suites the application and its
growth whether or not the plan is to let it grow because, regardless of what
your PM or client tells you... the possibility is always there.

I know that, you both know that and everyone here who has built an app that
finally grew so far out of control that it was a pain in the ass to manage
anymore... knows that. Everyone else will learn the same lessons when it
happens to them... (and it will)... 

The person who asked the question originally now knows that... but he's
stuck with a 2400 page application that needs some consistent code... wtf...
put it in Application.cfm... it won't break regardless of anything that some
'framework' Nazi ever told you. Functionally, there is nothing wrong with
putting a header or an include in your application.cfm if you know it's
going to go across the entire site. It's all preferences and habits... And
YOUR preferences and habits will best suit you but you (and everyone else)
will go through trial and errors just like this one to set your preference.

The first person to come back with... I wipe my ass from front to back but
that doesn't make it the 'best' way to do it does it? is a fool because
yes... otherwise you'de have doodoo on your hoohoo
 
..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:53 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm

 I suspect you could write your entire application within 
Application.cfm. However, I don't think that would be a
good idea.

You will not make an extreme look any beter just by showing how stupid 
is the opposite extreme ;-)

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Adrian Lynch]

Daniel San, wise is the man who fears the client saying it's a simple
application...

-Original Message-
From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 31 December 2005 15:33
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


Cute little anecdotes or Mr. Miagi/Yoda/Silent Bob like sayings won't
change it.

Bobby Hartsfield



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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bobby Hartsfield]

Lol... see... didn't change a thing
 
..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com
 
 

-Original Message-
From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 11:31 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

Daniel San, wise is the man who fears the client saying it's a simple
application...

-Original Message-
From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 31 December 2005 15:33
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


Cute little anecdotes or Mr. Miagi/Yoda/Silent Bob like sayings won't
change it.

Bobby Hartsfield





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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Jennifer Gavin-Wear]

lol Ade .. which is often followed by and we've been quoted half that price
by x .

-Original Message-
From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 31 December 2005 16:31
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


Daniel San, wise is the man who fears the client saying it's a simple
application...




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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 Separating logic from display may be good in theory, but it just 
 does not correspond to reality when dynamic HTML is involved. If 
 there is no logic in dynamic HTML, then it's not dynamic anymore.

No one's saying you shouldn't have any logic in your HTML generation. The
question is, what sort of logic should you have there? You could just put
everything there, or you could separate the things that have to do
specifically with page generation from the things that have to do with the
overall logic of how your application works. The stuff that generates your
page is typically called presentation logic. The stuff that does other
things is typically called business logic or something similar.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 what is this? CF_FotuneCookie_Talk?

I was simply using similes. They're pretty commonly used in English. So are
metaphors.

 Cute little anecdotes or Mr. Miagi/Yoda/Silent Bob like sayings 
 won't change it.

Uh, you know, I thought Silent Bob was ... silent?

 The person who asked the question originally now knows 
 that... but he's stuck with a 2400 page application that 
 needs some consistent code... wtf... put it in 
 Application.cfm... it won't break regardless of 
 anything that some 'framework' Nazi ever told you. 
 Functionally, there is nothing wrong with putting a 
 header or an include in your application.cfm if you 
 know it's going to go across the entire site. 

I don't think any of the responses to the original poster said that doing
this would break anything. He asked about the pros and cons, and he got
appropriate responses. In the case of the original poster, I'd probably do
the same thing as he's doing. But if I were building the application from
scratch, I probably wouldn't.

 It's all preferences and habits... And YOUR preferences 
 and habits will best suit you but you (and everyone else)
 will go through trial and errors just like this one to set 
 your preference.

It is NOT all preferences and habits. Or at least, it shouldn't be. What
other kind of profession lets you just follow preferences and habits? If you
went to a doctor to have your appendix taken out, and he told you my
preference is to use a spoon for that would that be ok with you?
Preferences and habits are fine for things that no one else will have to
deal with. There's more to programming than preferences and habits - there's
a body of knowledge that's been built up by the experiences and study of
others.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

Oh, and just one additional item; I was responding to Claude's question
about why you should separate presentation logic from business logic at all.
If you don't think that's a worthy topic of discussion, I can only
respectfully disagree.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 my preference is to use a spoon for that would that be ok with you?

Why not ? As far as he keeps them separated from forks ;-))

-- 
___
REUSE CODE! Use custom tags;
See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
(Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bobby Hartsfield]

Separating anything wasn't the question of this topic... it's how to include
something in 2400 pages easily (by the time you started posting anyway)...
and in this case it would be done easily with Application.cfm (you've
agreed) but separating milk from eggs or planting trees or spooning with
your doctor has nothing to do with anything CF related which... btw.. is the
language in question... not English. You want to say something without
actually saying it? Use pseudo code, examples and experiences.

 I don't think any of the responses to the original poster said that doing 
 this would break anything

I don't recall saying otherwise... but the only reason I can think of for
absolutley excluding a possible solution is that it would 'break'
something... not because it might put an html tag in the 'business logic' of
your HTML application. I was merely pointing out that it would not break it.

 Uh, you know, I thought Silent Bob was ... silent?

Just a side note but... Kevin Smith (Silent Bob) talks in every movie he's
ever been in

 It is NOT all preferences and habits. Or at least, it shouldn't be.

Why shouldn't it be? Because it's not your preference?

 there's a body of knowledge that's been built up by the experiences and 
 study of others.

Who? Trees, acorns, ill-equipped doctors and well organized refridgerators?


 In the case of the original poster, I'd probably do the same thing as he's

 doing. But if I were building the application from scratch, I probably 
 wouldn't.

He probably wouldn't either after this little 2400 page adventure.

I guess the best 'saying' for Tim and his 2400 pages in this case would
be... You can't polish a turd so just use your Application.cfm to fix your
problem. 

Now you know that in the future you'll want to be a little more mindful of
an applications growth and scalability no matter how small you THINK its
going to 'stay' because things just don't always work out the way we expect
them to. Now you have your own experience and study to base your decisions
on and don't have to rely on spooning your dentist.

 If you don't think that's a worthy topic of discussion

You have to wait for me to say it before you are allowed to insinuate that I
said or thought it. ;-)

But he's seen the good and bad side of both and will make his choice as to
the best solution for him and his next application... and THAT... is a
preference no matter where you let your doctor stick his eating utensils.


Of course, I may just be a little bitter since I started reading a 60 post
strong thread that started out OK, got weak, then got better and then turned
to shit... and just decided I wanted to spruce up the ending a little...
maaayb

And mybe im just bitter because I have to go on a road trip with Will
(Who, incidentally, has went through the spoon procedure with his doctor and
now has huge gas problems...)

cf_MakeAllFunAndGames ;-) /cf_ MakeAllFunAndGames 


..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com



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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 Separating anything wasn't the question of this topic... it's 
 how to include something in 2400 pages easily (by the time you 
 started posting anyway)...

Again, if you read the entire thread carefully, you will see that I replied
to a specific question posed by Claude. His question was not the same as the
original poster's question, which I replied to separately. Claude's question
was what is the value of separating presentation logic from application
logic?

 and in this case it would be done easily with Application.cfm 
 (you've agreed) but separating milk from eggs or planting trees 
 or spooning with your doctor has nothing to do with anything CF 
 related which... btw.. is the language in question... not English. 
 You want to say something without actually saying it? Use pseudo 
 code, examples and experiences.

Thank you very much for your helpful advice on how to write. However, I
notice that you didn't write your answer in CF, but English. Personally, I
find similes and metaphors to be useful in explaining things. If you don't,
that's all well and good, but I'd prefer it if you didn't complain to me
about it. And again, if you read the thread, you will see that I did post
examples and experiences pertaining to separating presentation code from
generic application logic.

  It is NOT all preferences and habits. Or at least, it shouldn't 
  be.
 
 Why shouldn't it be? Because it's not your preference?

Oh, I don't know, perhaps because a lot of people - probably quite a bit
smarter than the both of us - have gained valuable and useful experience
about what works and what doesn't?

  If you don't think that's a worthy topic of discussion
 
 You have to wait for me to say it before you are allowed to 
 insinuate that I said or thought it. ;-)

No, see, that's how conditional logic works. I can specify a condition,
which, if met, causes a specific response. As a programmer, you might find
that concept useful in the future. For example, assuming that the variable
dumbAss below can be cast as a Boolean:

cfif Variables.dumbAss
cfoutput#Variables.snideRemark#/cfoutput
/cfif

Now, that's not saying dumbAss is true, but if it is, we can respond
appropriately.

 Of course, I may just be a little bitter since I started 
 reading a 60 post strong thread that started out OK, got weak, 
 then got better and then turned to shit... and just decided I 
 wanted to spruce up the ending a little... Maaayb

I don't think you did a very good job. That's just my opinion, of course.
Perhaps less bitterness, and more attention to detail, will help the next
time you want to spruce something up.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[James Holmes]

Because professional experience has shown that a scalpel works better.
To get back to the IT world, the entire ITIL suite of best practices
is built up from the experience of professionals who have seen what
goes wrong when alternative practices are followed. To say that there
are no best practices and one can just make up methods on the spot
ignores an entire body of knowlege that another professional may
expect one has employed.

On 1/1/06, Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  my preference is to use a spoon for that would that be ok with you?

 Why not ? As far as he keeps them separated from forks ;-))

--
CFAJAX docs and other useful articles:
http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Snake]

To which you say.
OK go with x, and then when your not happy with the work, come and pay me to
do it properly. 

-Original Message-
From: Jennifer Gavin-Wear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 31 December 2005 17:06
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

lol Ade .. which is often followed by and we've been quoted half that price
by x .

-Original Message-
From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 31 December 2005 16:31
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


Daniel San, wise is the man who fears the client saying it's a simple
application...






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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Snake]

Imagine a road trip with Will and Dave GULP 

-Original Message-
From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 31 December 2005 20:10
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

Separating anything wasn't the question of this topic... it's how to include
something in 2400 pages easily (by the time you started posting anyway)...
and in this case it would be done easily with Application.cfm (you've
agreed) but separating milk from eggs or planting trees or spooning with
your doctor has nothing to do with anything CF related which... btw.. is the
language in question... not English. You want to say something without
actually saying it? Use pseudo code, examples and experiences.

 I don't think any of the responses to the original poster said that 
 doing this would break anything

I don't recall saying otherwise... but the only reason I can think of for
absolutley excluding a possible solution is that it would 'break'
something... not because it might put an html tag in the 'business logic' of
your HTML application. I was merely pointing out that it would not break it.

 Uh, you know, I thought Silent Bob was ... silent?

Just a side note but... Kevin Smith (Silent Bob) talks in every movie he's
ever been in

 It is NOT all preferences and habits. Or at least, it shouldn't be.

Why shouldn't it be? Because it's not your preference?

 there's a body of knowledge that's been built up by the experiences 
 and study of others.

Who? Trees, acorns, ill-equipped doctors and well organized refridgerators?


 In the case of the original poster, I'd probably do the same thing as 
 he's

 doing. But if I were building the application from scratch, I probably 
 wouldn't.

He probably wouldn't either after this little 2400 page adventure.

I guess the best 'saying' for Tim and his 2400 pages in this case would
be... You can't polish a turd so just use your Application.cfm to fix your
problem. 

Now you know that in the future you'll want to be a little more mindful of
an applications growth and scalability no matter how small you THINK its
going to 'stay' because things just don't always work out the way we expect
them to. Now you have your own experience and study to base your decisions
on and don't have to rely on spooning your dentist.

 If you don't think that's a worthy topic of discussion

You have to wait for me to say it before you are allowed to insinuate that I
said or thought it. ;-)

But he's seen the good and bad side of both and will make his choice as to
the best solution for him and his next application... and THAT... is a
preference no matter where you let your doctor stick his eating utensils.


Of course, I may just be a little bitter since I started reading a 60 post
strong thread that started out OK, got weak, then got better and then turned
to shit... and just decided I wanted to spruce up the ending a little...
maaayb

And mybe im just bitter because I have to go on a road trip with Will
(Who, incidentally, has went through the spoon procedure with his doctor and
now has huge gas problems...)

cf_MakeAllFunAndGames ;-) /cf_ MakeAllFunAndGames 


...:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com





~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[dave]

lol sh***tt
hey im ok and fun, just short tempered lol

its will. between his shittin himself and having to stop at every rest stop 
(since he has a thing for those) I sure do feel for bobby!

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/
http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 8:35 PM
To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm 

Imagine a road trip with Will and Dave  

-Original Message-
From: Bobby Hartsfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 31 December 2005 20:10
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

Separating anything wasn't the question of this topic... it's how to include
something in 2400 pages easily (by the time you started posting anyway)...
and in this case it would be done easily with Application.cfm (you've
agreed) but separating milk from eggs or planting trees or spooning with
your doctor has nothing to do with anything CF related which... btw.. is the
language in question... not English. You want to say something without
actually saying it? Use pseudo code, examples and experiences.

 I don't think any of the responses to the original poster said that 
 doing this would break anything

I don't recall saying otherwise... but the only reason I can think of for
absolutley excluding a possible solution is that it would 'break'
something... not because it might put an html tag in the 'business logic' of
your HTML application. I was merely pointing out that it would not break it.

 Uh, you know, I thought Silent Bob was ... silent?

Just a side note but... Kevin Smith (Silent Bob) talks in every movie he's
ever been in

 It is NOT all preferences and habits. Or at least, it shouldn't be.

Why shouldn't it be? Because it's not your preference?

 there's a body of knowledge that's been built up by the experiences 
 and study of others.

Who? Trees, acorns, ill-equipped doctors and well organized refridgerators?

 In the case of the original poster, I'd probably do the same thing as 
 he's

 doing. But if I were building the application from scratch, I probably 
 wouldn't.

He probably wouldn't either after this little 2400 page adventure.

I guess the best 'saying' for Tim and his 2400 pages in this case would
be... You can't polish a turd so just use your Application.cfm to fix your
problem. 

Now you know that in the future you'll want to be a little more mindful of
an applications growth and scalability no matter how small you THINK its
going to 'stay' because things just don't always work out the way we expect
them to. Now you have your own experience and study to base your decisions
on and don't have to rely on spooning your dentist.

 If you don't think that's a worthy topic of discussion

You have to wait for me to say it before you are allowed to insinuate that I
said or thought it. ;-)

But he's seen the good and bad side of both and will make his choice as to
the best solution for him and his next application... and THAT... is a
preference no matter where you let your doctor stick his eating utensils.

Of course, I may just be a little bitter since I started reading a 60 post
strong thread that started out OK, got weak, then got better and then turned
to shit... and just decided I wanted to spruce up the ending a little...
maaayb

And mybe im just bitter because I have to go on a road trip with Will
(Who, incidentally, has went through the spoon procedure with his doctor and
now has huge gas problems...)

 ;-) 

:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com



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Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bobby Hartsfield]

cfsavecontent variable=LiteralDave
pre
 but I'd prefer it if you didn't complain to me about it.

Isn't that usually the best practice when you find you don't like
something? Open it up for discussion/debate/argument/barrage of similes?

At any rate... I prefer to do so.

 Thank you very much for your helpful advice on how to write. 
 However, I notice that you didn't write your answer in CF, but English.

Yes, in plain english minus an assload of similes and metaphors... I'll keep
you in mind next time.

 Oh, I don't know, perhaps because a lot of people - probably quite a bit
 smarter than the both of us - have gained valuable and useful experience
 about what works and what doesn't?

Speak for yourself. Im obviously rather full of myself and happen to believe
no one is smarter lol j/k

But im sure none of those experiences concluded that putting html or
includes in an Application.cfm doesn't work

 No, see, that's how conditional logic works

No that's how deduction and reasoning MIGHT have worked if you used it
correctly but most definitely NOT conditional logic

 Perhaps less bitterness, and more attention to detail, will help the next
 time you want to spruce something up.

No... it seems to have worked just fine ;-)

/pre
/cfsavecontent

Output #LiteralDave# somwhere to see what it says. Of course I didn't have
time to write the RandomSimilie component... so I hope you can make it all
out ok. ;-)

..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com



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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 At any rate... I prefer to do so.
 
 ...
 But im sure none of those experiences concluded that putting html 
 or includes in an Application.cfm doesn't work

In that case, you should read the thread so you can understand what we were
actually discussing, rather than assuming we were discussing the original
poster's question.

 Output #LiteralDave# somwhere to see what it says. Of course 
 I didn't have time to write the RandomSimilie component... so 
 I hope you can make it all out ok. ;-)

No, your response is pretty unintelligible. Happy new year anyway, though.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bobby Hartsfield]

Unintelligible? Why? Because I didn't pussy foot around and say everything
by saying nothing? Good on ya... Maybe you should reread the thread and
point out the spot where I said... Hey Dave... you're a dumbass and your
preferences are stupid... come down of your metaphoric pedestal and argue
with me about it. And we'll start over there... but don't think for a
second that all your acorn, brick and doctor analogies made any of your
posts more 'intelligible' than anyone else's.

Happy new year to you too ;-)

..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 9:28 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm

 At any rate... I prefer to do so.
 
 ...
 But im sure none of those experiences concluded that putting html 
 or includes in an Application.cfm doesn't work

In that case, you should read the thread so you can understand what we were
actually discussing, rather than assuming we were discussing the original
poster's question.

 Output #LiteralDave# somwhere to see what it says. Of course 
 I didn't have time to write the RandomSimilie component... so 
 I hope you can make it all out ok. ;-)

No, your response is pretty unintelligible. Happy new year anyway, though.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!




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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Michael Clayton]

I'm afraid this discussion has veered off-course and into the land of
personal bickering.  I propose that each of us drop the discussion and
consider ourselves the victor.

Later on, we can sit at the pub with our mates and talk about how we
obliterated our opponent in an online discussion group about proper coding
practices in a web-based programming language.  Our collective glory will
blind the masses.

--
Michael Clayton
www.twilighted.com


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[James Holmes]

Agreed - that's the best post this year (of course it's 2006 now in
Oz, so there aren't that many posts with which to compare :-)

On 1/1/06, Michael Clayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm afraid this discussion has veered off-course and into the land of
 personal bickering.  I propose that each of us drop the discussion and
 consider ourselves the victor.

 Later on, we can sit at the pub with our mates and talk about how we
 obliterated our opponent in an online discussion group about proper coding
 practices in a web-based programming language.  Our collective glory will
 blind the masses.

--
CFAJAX docs and other useful articles:
http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Matt Robertson]

On 12/31/05, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 OK go with x, and then when your not happy with the work, come and pay me to
 do it properly.

My job title is Janitor for precisely this reason.  Cleaning up big
systems that started out as being made by creative souls who skipped
barefoot thru the code base, listening to their hearts, loving freely
and ignoring the grumpy old establishment fuds... They showed their
clients a thing or two... and got fired.  I replaced them.

:-|

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Matt Robertson]

On 12/31/05, Michael Clayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Later on, we can sit at the pub with our mates and talk about how we
 obliterated our opponent in an online discussion group about proper coding
 practices in a web-based programming language.  Our collective glory will
 blind the masses.

They won't be blinded.  They'll be asleep.  Lulled into a comatose
state by the gentle susurrations of dim pedantic mutterings versus
shrill freewheeling muse.

Happy freakin' new year.  Where is that sake bottle I put down?

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

~|
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Michael Clayton]

Sake to me.

Straight from the bottle?  You're a good man.

On 12/31/05, Matt Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 12/31/05, Michael Clayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Later on, we can sit at the pub with our mates and talk about how we
  obliterated our opponent in an online discussion group about proper
 coding
  practices in a web-based programming language.  Our collective glory
 will
  blind the masses.

 They won't be blinded.  They'll be asleep.  Lulled into a comatose
 state by the gentle susurrations of dim pedantic mutterings versus
 shrill freewheeling muse.

 Happy freakin' new year.  Where is that sake bottle I put down?

 --
 --mattRobertson--
 Janitor, MSB Web Systems
 mysecretbase.com

 

~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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HTML In Application.cfm

[Tim Claremont]

I have heard some people advise against the use of HTML in the Application.cfm 
file. I am wondering what the logic is behind that thinking.

I make use of the Application.cfm file to display the navigation bar at the top 
of my pages (image maps, etc.)

I have been doing this for years without a problem that I can detect.

What is the consensus? Should I merely use a CFINCLUDE in the application.cfm 
for my navigation bar?

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Adrian Lynch]

If it works, stick with it.

Ade

-Original Message-
From: Tim Claremont [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 December 2005 16:30
To: CF-Talk
Subject: HTML In Application.cfm


I have heard some people advise against the use of HTML in the
Application.cfm file. I am wondering what the logic is behind that thinking.

I make use of the Application.cfm file to display the navigation bar at the
top of my pages (image maps, etc.)

I have been doing this for years without a problem that I can detect.

What is the consensus? Should I merely use a CFINCLUDE in the
application.cfm for my navigation bar?


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Matt Robertson]

I would never use Application.cfm for output.  As far as I'm concerned
its strictly for internal-use code.  So I wouldn't use raw html OR an
include.  I would use the include on my display template.  I regard
Application.cfm as part of the processing tier of an app, not the
display tier.

I would say that while doing this is certainly possible its the wrong
tool for the job.

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

~|
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

I would never use Application.cfm for output.  As far as I'm concerned
 its strictly for internal-use code.  So I wouldn't use raw html OR an
 include.  I would use the include on my display template.  I regard
 Application.cfm as part of the processing tier of an app, not the
 display tier.

 I would say that while doing this is certainly possible its the wrong
 tool for the job.


I'll 2nd Matt's reply.  CF does allow developers to do some things that work, 
but really shouldn't be done. ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

That isn't really an answer however. You are saying not to do it, but why
not? Is it personal preference or is there a specific reason why this is to
be avoided.

I use it myself as well when I need something at the top of every page (and
to check security to make sure you can view that page as well). Is there
any real problem with doing this except that it doesn't fit in with the
idea of what you say it should be like?


Original Message:
-
From: Matt Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:45:28 -0800
To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm


I would never use Application.cfm for output.  As far as I'm concerned
its strictly for internal-use code.  So I wouldn't use raw html OR an
include.  I would use the include on my display template.  I regard
Application.cfm as part of the processing tier of an app, not the
display tier.

I would say that while doing this is certainly possible its the wrong
tool for the job.

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com



~|
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Tim Claremont]

But what is your rationale for the opinion that it should not be done?

It seems to me that placing a CFINCLUDE referencing a navigation bar at the top 
of each and every one of my 2400 cfm pages in my intranet app is more 
bass-ackwards than merely placing the code in question in the Application.cfm.

I am all for learning a better way to do things, but I need something more 
substantial than I don't do it because I don't think it should be done.

~|
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Jerry Johnson]

Application.cfm is a file that runs on every cfm page.

Anything you do that should be done on every page can be moved to the
application file.

If you want to keep the display code separate from the logic, use an
include or a tag to display it, but feel free to put it in there.

I see no reason to clutter every page of a site with something that
can be done once in a single file.

Once the something becomes conditional (not on every page), then you
need to decide how much conditional code you want to run in the
application file.

But site-wide headers and footers, and even logging, make good sense
in the Application/OnRequestEnd.

IMHO.


On 12/30/05, Matt Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I would never use Application.cfm for output.  As far as I'm concerned
 its strictly for internal-use code.  So I wouldn't use raw html OR an
 include.  I would use the include on my display template.  I regard
 Application.cfm as part of the processing tier of an app, not the
 display tier.

 I would say that while doing this is certainly possible its the wrong
 tool for the job.

 --
 --mattRobertson--
 Janitor, MSB Web Systems
 mysecretbase.com

 

~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Alan Rother]

There is nothing technically wrong with placing html or any other display
layer code in the Application.cfm.


SOME developer believe that you should never mix action / object code with
display code. This is simply personal coding practice rules that many people
live by. They are in no way right or wrong, it again comes down to what
works for you and your applications.

I say, why not use the Application.cfm as a place to put valid code that
needs to be on every page of your application, I mean, it is already
included in every page of your application.

Just my 2 cents.

--
Alan Rother
Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX 7 Developer


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

 That isn't really an answer however. You are saying not to do it, but why
 not? Is it personal preference or is there a specific reason why this is to
 be avoided.

 I use it myself as well when I need something at the top of every page (and
 to check security to make sure you can view that page as well). Is there
 any real problem with doing this except that it doesn't fit in with the
 idea of what you say it should be like?

Sure he gave you a reason...seperate processing/business logic from the display 
tier.

Application.cfm is really meant (but not enforced) for security, session 
management, and application settings like global vars etc.

You can also have CFCs output display codebut it's also a bad practice.

Think of this scenariowhat if you have a page you don't want to show the 
header on (pop-up window containing a file upload interfaceyou don't want a 
header and menu in that window).

You have to Add some mechanism to hide the display code in certain 
circumstances 
to stop the header/menu from displaying when using application.cfm to disaply 
them:

If you use a display template (which includes your header/menu file(s)) for all 
main window pages, all you need to do is make the pop-up a seperate file from 
your main site template and no hooks are required.

So if you have display code in Application.cfm you have to perform conditional 
checks on EVERY page request to show or hide that display (if that flexibility 
is required).  If you properly seperate out the display code you do NOT have to 
perform that additional conditional check on every page request.

This is a rather simplistic examplebut I think you'll see that you can end 
up adding complexity and overhead because of doing things that are possible but 
not a good practice ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

 But what is your rationale for the opinion that it should not be done?

 It seems to me that placing a CFINCLUDE referencing a navigation bar at the 
 top of each and every one of my 2400 cfm pages in my intranet app is more 
 bass-ackwards than merely placing the code in question in the Application.cfm.

 I am all for learning a better way to do things, but I need something more 
 substantial than I don't do it because I don't think it should be done.

Well Tim having 2400 pages that are not run based on a site template or that 
don't include a standard header/footer is the bass-ackwards way of doing things 
;-)

How I structure an app:

index.cfm is the site layout template...it includes header/footer/menu etc.

I pass around a URL var called pg which is the file name I want included for 
content (I always perform a FileExists() check and if not kick user to a page 
not found page).

If I want to change the look over EVERY page I just edit index.cfm (or one of 
the included header/footer/menu files).

Hope this sheds some light ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Tim Claremont]

Thanks for the example Bryan.

In my experience, the situation you describe has, in fact, come up from time to 
time.

It has happened so infrequently however that I have gotten away with creating a 
directory (usually a subdirectory of the directory containing the calling page) 
on my site called NoHeader. This directory has a blank Application.cfm and a 
blank OnRequestEnd.cfm. Any pages that meet the criteria you describe are 
placed in that directory.

I am by no means convinced that my method is sound or logical or acceptible. It 
has turned into one of those things that has worked so well for so many years 
that I cannot justify changing it without a little convincing.

When I sit back and become more objective about it, though, I can see where an 
application with logic far removed from mine would probably suffer from the 
arrangement I have applied here. Thus, I am not about to suggest that you are 
wrong.

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Adrian Lynch]

I've just had a thought...

 if you don't want the header in the pop-up and you don't want a sub
application, cfcontent reset=true, no more header :OD

Ade

-Original Message-
From: Tim Claremont [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 December 2005 17:35
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm


Thanks for the example Bryan.

In my experience, the situation you describe has, in fact, come up from time
to time.

It has happened so infrequently however that I have gotten away with
creating a directory (usually a subdirectory of the directory containing the
calling page) on my site called NoHeader. This directory has a blank
Application.cfm and a blank OnRequestEnd.cfm. Any pages that meet the
criteria you describe are placed in that directory.

I am by no means convinced that my method is sound or logical or acceptible.
It has turned into one of those things that has worked so well for so many
years that I cannot justify changing it without a little convincing.

When I sit back and become more objective about it, though, I can see where
an application with logic far removed from mine would probably suffer from
the arrangement I have applied here. Thus, I am not about to suggest that
you are wrong.


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Tim Claremont]

No argument there either. When I started this intranet application close to ten 
years ago there were few enough pages to where a site template would have been 
akin to putting an elevator in an outhouse. No chance of going back now


Well Tim having 2400 pages that are not run based on a site template or that 
don't include a standard header/footer is the bass-ackwards way of doing 
things 
;-)

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

Hey Tim,

Yep...alot does depend on the size/complexity of the app.  I've built a lot of 
very large and complex apps with wildy different display needs depending on 
where the user is at.  You hit a point at which the boy this works great 
turns 
into wow was that a bad way to structure things.

That said I got lots of advice from better programmers than I early on in my 
careerso I've always done my best to seperate things the right way from 
scratch...then if requirements change you don't have to do an app tear down and 
re-factor..just start using the built-in scalability and away I go ;-)

This debate is very similar to which language is bestdepends on the 
requirementsbest tool for the job. ;-)

and of course there there is a lot of value in the old saying...If it 
ain't 
broke...don't fix it ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

 I've just had a thought...

  if you don't want the header in the pop-up and you don't want a sub
 application, cfcontent reset=true, no more header :OD

 Ade

still a workaround...extra processing when it's not needed ;-)

and that was just a simple example...there are many far more complex reasons 
that I just don't have time to convey today.

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

a...one of those sites...been there...have the scars to prove it ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Adrian Lynch]

Ah but only when you request the pop-up! :OD

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 December 2005 19:02
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm


 I've just had a thought...

  if you don't want the header in the pop-up and you don't want a sub
 application, cfcontent reset=true, no more header :OD

 Ade

still a workaround...extra processing when it's not needed ;-)

and that was just a simple example...there are many far more complex reasons
that I just don't have time to convey today.

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

 Ah but only when you request the pop-up! :OD

LOL...still extra at time of call ;-)  save those milliseconds!!

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Adrian Lynch]

N, milliseconds are people too you know! They need to work!
They have mini-milliseconds (or should that be nanoseconds) to feed!!

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 December 2005 19:21
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm


 Ah but only when you request the pop-up! :OD

LOL...still extra at time of call ;-)  save those milliseconds!!

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com



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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Michael Clayton]

I've only been using CF for a little over a year at work and at home.  Just
a disclaimer. :)

My response would be that if you have a fairly large application where it is
important to keep your action and content code separate, then it is well
worth the time to learn and deploy Fusebox.  With a healthy application of
Fusebox and CSS, it's possible to keep 99% of your action, query, content,
and display(styles) code separate.  You'd be able to apply all the headers,
footers, siders, upers and downers you wanted without messing with
Application.cfm.  Clearly though, with already-active 2400 page intranet,
that's not a feasable suggestion.  Sorry. :(

I usually cringe when I hear about people coding a certain way because it
works.  That is what makes the W3C cry itself to sleep every night.  But in
this case, you're not breaking any official standards, per se, only a vague
standard that other coders have imposed on themselves.  And Adobe isn't
likely to change the functionality of Application.cfm any time soon.  So I
say go for it. :)


On 12/30/05, Adrian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Ah but only when you request the pop-up! :OD

 -Original Message-
 From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 30 December 2005 19:02
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm


  I've just had a thought...
 
   if you don't want the header in the pop-up and you don't want a sub
  application, cfcontent reset=true, no more header :OD
 
  Ade

 still a workaround...extra processing when it's not needed ;-)

 and that was just a simple example...there are many far more complex
 reasons
 that I just don't have time to convey today.

 Cheers

 Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.


 

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 I have heard some people advise against the use of HTML in 
 the Application.cfm file. I am wondering what the logic is 
 behind that thinking.
 
 I make use of the Application.cfm file to display the 
 navigation bar at the top of my pages (image maps, etc.)
 
 I have been doing this for years without a problem that I can
 detect.
 
 What is the consensus? Should I merely use a CFINCLUDE in the 
 application.cfm for my navigation bar?

There are several reasons why you might not want to place display code
within Application.cfm. One is to avoid mixing display and application
logic. Another is that, as your application grows, the likelihood that
you'll want the exact same display added to every page decreases; for
example, when you're downloading a file via CFCONTENT, or displaying a popup
window.

Now, as problems go, these are pretty minor, and can be worked around pretty
easily. However, most people try to structure their applications so that
they have as few workarounds as they can, and this becomes more important as
your application grows in size and complexity.

I wouldn't worry too much about this one way or the other, though. That is,
I wouldn't go back to existing applications and rewrite them to avoid this.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 I have heard some people advise against the use of HTML in the 
Application.cfm file.

Like many Never do or Always do, this is purely a matter of religon ;-)
The only reason for not putting HTML in Application.cfm, is if the code 
is not intended to be used
in every page.
I would even say that keeping the display code separated from the logic 
by principle, is againt the basic philosopy
behind CF and its nature.
CF is a *dynamic HTML language*, the logic is in the dynamic part, 
so trying to separate
the dynamic from the HTML is nothing but that some sort of academic and 
idle exercice.
Furthermore, CF is THE language in which the HTML and the logic are THE 
MOST integrated,
and this is one of the main reasons we all like it so much, so why going 
against it?

This is my opinion,... and I share it ;-)

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 Sure he gave you a reason...seperate processing/business logic from 
the display tier.

Ok, fine, then why seperate processing/business logic from the display?
This is not a reason, this is just another way to rephrase the question...

Just like Who created the world?... The Creator... ah OK, fine ;-)

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 if you have a fairly large application where.

But WHY it is important to keep your action and content code separate in 
a large application?
Does it make it less large? ;-)
The main reason to keep anything away from the rest is because you are 
using it at many places,
so you put it somewhere in a function, a custom tag, an include or 
anything else, including Application.cfm,
but this stands for CF code and HTML as well. Still no reason to 
separate the code from the HTML.


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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 Ok, fine, then why seperate processing/business logic from 
 the display? This is not a reason, this is just another way 
 to rephrase the question...

Because it makes your code easier to maintain? Because it lets you change
one without affecting the other? To follow your argument to its logical
conclusion, why write APIs and interfaces at all?

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 Because it makes your code easier to maintain?

This is also the reason one would put HTML in the application.cfm, at 
only one place: easier to maintain.
Since the purpose of CF is to produce HTML, I do not see how it can be 
easier to maintain
if CF code is separated from HTML ;-/

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 But WHY it is important to keep your action and content code 
 separate in a large application? Does it make it less large? ;-)

If you were building a house made from brick, you could use lots of
regular-sized bricks, or you could use one gigantic brick. Most people would
find the former a more workable option.

 The main reason to keep anything away from the rest is 
 because you are using it at many places, so you put it somewhere 
 in a function, a custom tag, an include or anything else, 
 including Application.cfm, but this stands for CF code and 
 HTML as well. Still no reason to separate the code from the 
 HTML.

There are other reasons why you might write separate modules, other than
reuse. One common reason is simplification - it's just easier to work with a
module that does one thing. You immediately know where to go to change how
that one thing works, for example. If you find that you need to do that one
thing elsewhere, it's easy to do if you've followed this approach. And, it's
common in web applications for views to change independent of business logic
and vice-versa. So why would you want to stick them together in one big
undifferentiated mass of code?

For example, a coworker had to add support for RSS and mobile devices to a
huge site last week. He was able to do it very quickly, because all he had
to do was write a separate set of display code. He didn't have to worry
about how it would affect the existing display code or the business logic of
the application.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 This is also the reason one would put HTML in the application.cfm,
 at only one place: easier to maintain. Since the purpose of CF is 
 to produce HTML, I do not see how it can be easier to maintain
 if CF code is separated from HTML ;-/

I disagree with your contention that the purpose of CF is to produce HTML. I
would instead say that the purpose of CF is to build web applications. Web
applications don't just produce HTML, they interact with databases and do
all sorts of other things. HTML generation is just one small part of what
web applications do.

I've had to work on existing applications which combine presentation and
business logic, and it hasn't been a pleasant experience. If it's been
pleasant for you, by all means, feel free to continue.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Will Tomlinson]

I've been creating a layout cfc lately, then calling showHeader(), 
showLeftMenu(), etc..

Seems to work great. Then for content, I built a productdisplay cfc for 
instance. listCategories(), listProducts(), etc...

Will

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

Amen Dave!!

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

 Because it makes your code easier to maintain?

 This is also the reason one would put HTML in the application.cfm, at
 only one place: easier to maintain.
 Since the purpose of CF is to produce HTML, I do not see how it can be
 easier to maintain
 if CF code is separated from HTML ;-/

So Clause...how are these different then:

-header included via Application.cfm
-header included via site teamplte file

BOTH will include the header and only in one placeso why not use the best 
practice and include it via the template and not Application.cfm??

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Michael Clayton]

Why do we have rooms in our houses dedicated to different things?  Why do we
have neat little plastic things to keep our knives, forks, and spoons
separate?  It's all organization.  No, it doesn't make it less large, but it
does make it feel less large.  If I get an error, I will know exactly where
to go to fix it, rather than scrolling through 10,000 lines of code to find
the culprit.


On 12/30/05, Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 if you have a fairly large application where.

 But WHY it is important to keep your action and content code separate in
 a large application?
 Does it make it less large? ;-)
 The main reason to keep anything away from the rest is because you are
 using it at many places,
 so you put it somewhere in a function, a custom tag, an include or
 anything else, including Application.cfm,
 but this stands for CF code and HTML as well. Still no reason to
 separate the code from the HTML.


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

Amen Dave part deux!! ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Mark A Kruger]

Dave, I made your brick quote my last blog of the year (probably). very
succinct :)

-mark


-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 2:37 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


 But WHY it is important to keep your action and content code
 separate in a large application? Does it make it less large? ;-)

If you were building a house made from brick, you could use lots of
regular-sized bricks, or you could use one gigantic brick. Most people would
find the former a more workable option.



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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Scott Stewart]

I would think that there would be location issues with HTML in
Application.cfm. Meaning: you would need to fully qualify all of the image
urls in the HTML.

You might be better off setting a header at the server.

Scott A. Stewart
ColdFusion Developer
 
GNSI
11820 Parklawn Dr
Rockville, MD 20852
(301) 770-9610  

-Original Message-
From: Tim Claremont [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 11:59 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm

But what is your rationale for the opinion that it should not be done?

It seems to me that placing a CFINCLUDE referencing a navigation bar at the
top of each and every one of my 2400 cfm pages in my intranet app is more
bass-ackwards than merely placing the code in question in the
Application.cfm.

I am all for learning a better way to do things, but I need something more
substantial than I don't do it because I don't think it should be done.



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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[dave]

for example if you do that then say when u add a text editor the header and 
footer will try to squeeze into the textarea and then u gotta go back and 
reorganize the whole thing.

for someone like will its no big deal cause you'd only have like 4 pages in the 
whole app to change lol

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Matt Robertson]

On 12/30/05, Tim Claremont [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It seems to me that placing a CFINCLUDE referencing a navigation bar at the 
 top of each
 and every one of my 2400 cfm pages in my intranet app is more bass-ackwards 
 than
 merely placing the code in question in the Application.cfm.

Yes, that would be crazy, but needing to do so in the first place
would be an indicator of a bad system design.

Do it right, and you only have one main display template for each
major section of your site (or one for the whole thing).  Thats the
page where the header include goes.  If you have other variants which
require display (say, for example, a login screen or a
'you-forgot-to-fill-in-the-form-field' page) then you would re-use the
header (and footer) templates there as well (but not the menu).  What
you wind up with is a structured approach to building a page display
that doesn't rely on workarounds, is light on resources blah blah.

Someone mentioned dumping pages into a subfolder where that subfolder
has a blank /Application.cfm and OnRequestEnd.cfm as blocks.  Thats
great so long as you aren't doing anything that needs any
session-specific information, or application-var-based settings like
paths, or root urls, or user login info, or time-zone settings or... 
For me that would be a mighty short list.  If the application is a
simple one then OK, you have a workaround, but one that is going to
have to be reinvented if you decide to do anything that isn't, dare I
say it, rudimentary.

I guess it boils down to always choosing an architecture where you
don't have any obvious ceilings to bump into.  (BTW I am not a
proponent of Fusebox as an answer to the problem).

Now, if I were walking into a job that someone else had built over 10
years and was stuck with the architecture, I wouldn't rebuild it for
the sake of doing it, but I sure wouldn't build anything else like
that if I could help it.

--
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Eric Roberts]

I would disagree with that...depending on your design model, it is a good
way to include headers instead of having to write an include statement on
every page.

Eric  

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, 30 December 2005 11:52
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm

I would never use Application.cfm for output.  As far as I'm concerned  
its strictly for internal-use code.  So I wouldn't use raw html OR an  
include.  I would use the include on my display template.  I regard  
Application.cfm as part of the processing tier of an app, not the  
display tier.

 I would say that while doing this is certainly possible its the wrong 
 tool for the job.


I'll 2nd Matt's reply.  CF does allow developers to do some things that
work, but really shouldn't be done. ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 




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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 BOTH will include the header and only in one placeso why not use 
the best
practice and include it via the template and not Application.cfm??

Who said it is the best practice?
If you consider Application.cfm as tool which can (among many other 
things) generate a header,
why is it so evil to let it generate the header ?
Of course, if you need different headers depending on parts of the 
application, then CFINCLUDE them...
 OR store the different parts of your application in differnet 
directories, and...
 use a specific Application.cfm to generate the particular headers ;-)

This is MY best practice.

-- 
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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

I would disagree with that...depending on your design model, it is a good
 way to include headers instead of having to write an include statement on
 every page.

 Eric

and Eric if you use a site template for layout you only incluude the header 
oncein the template ;-)

So NOT on every page.

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dustin Tinney]

MVC Design says it's best practice...  and I'm pretty sure this has
been well accepted as the better approach

On 12/30/05, Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  BOTH will include the header and only in one placeso why not use
 the best
 practice and include it via the template and not Application.cfm??

 Who said it is the best practice?
 If you consider Application.cfm as tool which can (among many other
 things) generate a header,
 why is it so evil to let it generate the header ?
 Of course, if you need different headers depending on parts of the
 application, then CFINCLUDE them...
  OR store the different parts of your application in differnet
 directories, and...
  use a specific Application.cfm to generate the particular headers ;-)

 This is MY best practice.

 --
 ___
 REUSE CODE! Use custom tags;
 See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
 (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
 Thanks.


 

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 One common reason is simplification - it's just easier to work with a
module that does one thing. You immediately know where to go to change how
that one thing works, for example.

Right, and this applies particularily well to putting any header HTML 
code in Application.cfm ;-)

 For example, a coworker had to add support for RSS and mobile devices 
to a
huge site last week. He was able to do it very quickly, because all he had
to do was write a separate set of display code. He didn't have to worry
about how it would affect the existing display code or the business logic of
the application.

May be, but on the other hand, when someone will have to modify 
something common to
the whole application, he will have to look for all the places some 
different header can be used.

I don't mean that everything should be put everytime in Application.cfm.
I'm just against this kind of rule that states this is THE best 
practice, period!.
A best practice is just like the best tool: it depends what you have 
to do with it.

I do use index.cfm?action= type of coding, I also use CFINCLUDE 
TEMPLATE=header.cfm,
I also put some HTML sometimes in Application.cfm, it depends what I 
think is the best
depending on the situation, I do not work one hand on the keyboard, and 
a bible in the other hand :-)

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 Amen Dave part deux!

Just as I said, when programing becomes a religion, better start doing 
something else ;-)

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 the purpose of CF is to build web applications. Web
applications don't just produce HTML

Of course, I was just trying to keep the discussion simple, not exhaustive.

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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[dave]

damn i hope i never have to update your code, lol

personaly, I will get off my lazy ass and type and additional 2 lines to add a 
header and footer and the main reason is that when I include a header (via 
cfmodule) I can also add a dynamic page title to each page for search engines, 
like so : cfmodule template=/includes/header.cfm title=Send Us Your 
Comments and Questions

And for those who can't stand to lose the 2 seconds it takes to do that then 
just make a snippet of the basic layout and click on it and add in between.

As far as adding a seperate application.cfm to sections where they would have 
to put it to break to root app.cfm, thats umm, kinda dumb and besides you 
should be using application.cfc now

As far as doing it to save space well I have seen most of your guys code and u 
add so much extra crap just to be cool that it is far more than adding 2 
lines to make it a bit more portable and not because ur to lazy to do it.

~Dave the disruptor~
google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :)
http://explorerdestroyer.com/
http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ 


From: Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 5:12 PM
To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm 

BOTH will include the header and only in one placeso why not use 
the best
practice and include it via the template and not Application.cfm??

Who said it is the best practice?
If you consider Application.cfm as tool which can (among many other 
things) generate a header,
why is it so evil to let it generate the header ?
Of course, if you need different headers depending on parts of the 
application, then CFINCLUDE them...
. OR store the different parts of your application in differnet 
directories, and...
. use a specific Application.cfm to generate the particular headers ;-)

This is MY best practice.

-- 
___
REUSE CODE! Use custom tags;
See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
(Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Thanks.



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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Bryan Stevenson]

Have you read my and especially Dave's replies?? ;-)

I think I'm leavin this one as...I'll agree to disagree ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 Of course, I was just trying to keep the discussion simple, 
 not exhaustive.

You should make things as simple as possible, but no simpler. How exhaustive
was my response?

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

  One common reason is simplification - it's just easier to 
  work with a module that does one thing. You immediately know 
  where to go to change how that one thing works, for example.
 
 Right, and this applies particularily well to putting any header HTML 
 code in Application.cfm ;-)

If you use Application.cfm to initialize your application pages, and you use
it to generate output, that's two different things.

 May be, but on the other hand, when someone will have to modify 
 something common to the whole application, he will have to look 
 for all the places some different header can be used.

You seem to be assuming that there are only two choices - put something in
Application.cfm, or put it within every page. I don't think those are the
only two options.

 I don't mean that everything should be put everytime in 
 Application.cfm. I'm just against this kind of rule that states 
 this is THE best practice, period!. A best practice is just 
 like the best tool: it depends what you have to do with it.

I think that you're absolutely right on this point. You'll notice I didn't
say that my recommendation was a best practice. I simply responded to your
question about why separating presentation and business logic is a good
thing generally. I don't think it's the end of the world if you violate this
sometimes.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
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Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Jennifer Gavin-Wear]

Just a small point, but for SEO you would be wise to use fully qualified
links.


-Original Message-
From: Scott Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 December 2005 21:21
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: HTML In Application.cfm


I would think that there would be location issues with HTML in
Application.cfm. Meaning: you would need to fully qualify all of the image
urls in the HTML.




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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Eric Roberts]

That's what I do...but in this other guy's case, it would make sense to put
in the application.cfm since he would have to re-write all the code on his
site to do that 

Eric

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, 30 December 2005 16:15
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: HTML In Application.cfm

I would disagree with that...depending on your design model, it is a 
good  way to include headers instead of having to write an include 
statement on  every page.

 Eric

and Eric if you use a site template for layout you only incluude the header
oncein the template ;-)

So NOT on every page.

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 




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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 If you use Application.cfm to initialize your application pages, and 
you use
it to generate output, that's two different things.

Ok, but who said one cannot do two different things in Application.cfm?


  May be, but on the other hand, when someone will have to modify
  something common to the whole application, he will have to look
  for all the places some different header can be used.

 You seem to be assuming that there are only two choices - put 
something in
 Application.cfm, or put it within every page. I don't think those are the
 only two options.

Absolutely not, you  said He was able to do it very quickly, because 
all he had
to do was write a separate set of display code.
This is fine, but the other side of the coin is that you end up with two 
different display templates, then 3, 4,...
If they have some code identical and you have to modify this code, you 
now have 2, 3, 4 ... places to look at.
What I mean is that nothing is PERFECT, so there is NO BEST practice, 
only good judgment to
find the best way to do it depending on the situation.
The method you describe may be fine for very large applications, but 
many people are also working
on small and medium applications. A methodology good for large 
application may be a hassle
for smaller applications.

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RE: HTML In Application.cfm

[Dave Watts]

 Ok, but who said one cannot do two different things in 
 Application.cfm?

You can do as many things as you like. I suspect you could write your entire
application within Application.cfm. However, I don't think that would be a
good idea.

 Absolutely not, you said He was able to do it very quickly, 
 because all he had to do was write a separate set of display 
 code. This is fine, but the other side of the coin is that 
 you end up with two different display templates, then 3, 4,...
 If they have some code identical and you have to modify this 
 code, you now have 2, 3, 4 ... places to look at.

I think you'll be hard-pressed to find any commonality between HTML display
code and RSS or WML. So, yes, those are separate sets of code. The
commonality they share is the business logic, which is stored separately
from the display code.

 What I mean is that nothing is PERFECT, so there is NO BEST 
 practice, only good judgment to find the best way to do it 
 depending on the situation. The method you describe may be 
 fine for very large applications, but many people are also 
 working on small and medium applications. A methodology good 
 for large application may be a hassle for smaller applications.

Just as mighty oaks from little acorns grow, large applications often start
as small applications. The good judgment of experienced web programmers
commonly finds the separation of presentation and business logic to be
valuable.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: HTML In Application.cfm

[Claude Schneegans]

 I suspect you could write your entire application within 
Application.cfm. However, I don't think that would be a
good idea.

You will not make an extreme look any beter just by showing how stupid 
is the opposite extreme ;-)

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