Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 12:14:00PM -0400, Rob wrote: On Thursday 02 October 2003 12:07, Luca Berra wrote: Do you mean Vincent is right and contrib is to be regarded as junk? Or are you asking mandrakesoft to provide you thes I don't think Vincent said contrib is to be regarded as junk. I think he's saying contrib is not to be regarded as supported. Big difference. ok, sorry i was stretching the concept, but as it is contrib is not only unsupported, but unsupportable, which stinks. L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media & Services S.r.l. /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 09:30:59AM -0600, Vincent Danen wrote: some of the pain could be eased if we had an updated rpm package for older versions (supported older versions, i mean, not 7.2) that levels the packaging macros to 9.2 Shouldn't difficult. We've put out rpm macro updates before. And, FYI, the good to hear about this. oldest version we support now is 9.0 (8.2 went EOL two days ago). The exception to that is MNF which is based on 8.2. well, maybe someone installing contribs on a firewall deserves what it implies. Of course, the macros are just part of it. If a spec is tuned, say, for a new version of cyrus-sasl in cooker, the maintainer has to be aware that what was required for the old version has to then be put in as conditionals. Not all maintainers do this. This is a reason for me advocating a split. Btw, some packages in contrib are very well packaged and maintained, some are playground for new features and some just suck, maybe splitting contrib in sections based on package quality and starting to maintain updates only for the stable part of contrib could be a start. I don't think splitting contribs further is the answer... I really don't. How is that any different from the current situation? Now we have main and contribs... you want to turn that into main, contribs-stable, contribs-possibly-works, and contribs-junk? =) Well I am trying to (and possibly failing) to think of a possible solution to this problem. some stuff in contrib is useful and not having it updated is a bad idea moving everything to main is a bad idea as well since contrib is not maintained mandrakesoft does not wish to publish it as a feature contrib is full of junk (super freeswan, is a particularly obnoxiuous peice of junk), i do not mind having junk in contrib for cooker, i was thinking that on splitting contrib for a stable distribution junk could be left out, and maybe the rest can be maintained to a smaller degree than how main is maintained, say just security updates. Say only for latest contrib version. regards, L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media & Services S.r.l. /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thursday 02 October 2003 12:07, Luca Berra wrote: > Do you mean Vincent is right and contrib is to be regarded as > junk? Or are you asking mandrakesoft to provide you thes I don't think Vincent said contrib is to be regarded as junk. I think he's saying contrib is not to be regarded as supported. Big difference. Which reminds me: separate from contrib, cooker, and club-contrib there's a repository called "unsupported" even though those three other repositories are also unsupported. What's that about? Rob
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 03:40:23PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote: Ainsi parlait Luca Berra : Would other contributors be adverse on taking the commitment of maintaining 'stable' packages for 'supported' version of mandrake (that should be 18 months or 3 releases IIRC)? Yes, unless someone give me the means to test those packages. I only run cooker for my desktops, and stable for my servers. I don't want to maitain three other versions just to test packages. Sorry i fail to understand your point: Do you mean Vincent is right and contrib is to be regarded as junk? Or are you asking mandrakesoft to provide you thes means? L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media & Services S.r.l. /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On 10/02/2003 11:25:10 AM, Vincent Danen wrote: This is what I meant. =) The above is the cooker wiki... the community wiki is http://mandrake.vmlinuz.ca/ Oi, the confusion. I know the name of qa.mandrakesoft.com/wiki, because I named it, with Warly's approval. It's the 'Mandrake Linux Community Wiki', as stated in the copyright message. It was never intended to be cooker-only, even if that is it's main content. Austin
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 09:00:57AM +0200, Luca Berra wrote:
> >Some, not all. If packages were done to handle old versions while working
> >with the current, this would be a different story. But this can be very
> >difficult... I have some specs that can rebuild on older distribs and some
> >of them are *very* convoluted. Take my qmail packages for example...
> >before
> some of the pain could be eased if we had an updated rpm package for
> older versions (supported older versions, i mean, not 7.2) that levels
> the packaging macros to 9.2
Shouldn't difficult. We've put out rpm macro updates before. And, FYI, the
oldest version we support now is 9.0 (8.2 went EOL two days ago). The
exception to that is MNF which is based on 8.2.
Of course, the macros are just part of it. If a spec is tuned, say, for a
new version of cyrus-sasl in cooker, the maintainer has to be aware that
what was required for the old version has to then be put in as conditionals.
Not all maintainers do this.
> >>I don't believe there is anyone enjoying having to mantain 4 different
> >>packages of the same software when one would suffice.
> >
> >Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker machine and
> >compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if your package, despite
> >having
> >conditional build macros, will work with an older distrib if you don't take
> >the time to build and test on that old platform? So you *do* need to
> >maintain it in such a manner otherwise you're just pumping out stuff that
> >pretends to work on old distribs and you really don't have a clue if it
> >does
> >or not.
> Yes, i do need to test and to maintain a package in such a manner.
> during last development cycle i had a 9.0 mail/web-server, a 9.1 laptop and
> a cooker box at home, and i usually tested stuff there. But that was
> from the same package, not different specs with different patches for
> each release.
>
> The problem for me will be when i upgrade the server to 9.2 :(
>
> Btw, some packages in contrib are very well packaged and maintained,
> some are playground for new features and some just suck, maybe splitting
> contrib in sections based on package quality and starting to maintain
> updates only for the stable part of contrib could be a start.
> (if this has already been discussed just shoot at me and i will shut up)
> Would other contributors be adverse on taking the commitment of
> maintaining 'stable' packages for 'supported' version of mandrake (that
> should be 18 months or 3 releases IIRC)?
I don't think splitting contribs further is the answer... I really don't.
How is that any different from the current situation? Now we have main and
contribs... you want to turn that into main, contribs-stable,
contribs-possibly-works, and contribs-junk? =)
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 03:32:46PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > > > > I don't believe there is anyone enjoying having to mantain 4
> > > > > different packages of the same software when one would suffice.
> > > >
> > > > Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker machine and
> > > > compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if your package, despite
> > > > having conditional build macros, will work with an older distrib if you
> > > > don't take the time to build and test on that old platform? So you
> > > > *do* need to maintain it in such a manner otherwise you're just pumping
> > > > out stuff that pretends to work on old distribs and you really don't
> > > > have a clue if it does or not.
> > >
> > > But, the point is that if people are interested in maintaining their
> > > packages for rebuild on older releases, then it may be possible to make
> > > this easier by having automated rebuilds on stable releases.
> >
> > Yes, but don't you understand that automatic rebuilds is not enough? It
> > needs to be *tested* first.
> I didn't pretend it was enough, just that getting stable versions for free,
> without any additional human resources need, would be a gain over current
> situation.
>
> It would not bring an updated version of stable distribution for sure, but at
> least provide packages with far better chance of working on stable version
> that cooker packages.
>
> And nothing prevent packagers from testing on stable, as well as they are
> testing on cooker.
Right, and this is the part about Club packaging that makes sense. It goes
into a testing repository first and people try it out and vote on it,
understanding that it's in testing. Once enough people have tested it and
it's ok, it goes into Club "stable".
My problem is with just pumping out rebuilt stuff, without testing, and
throwing them into a "stable contribs" repository. If it hasn't been tested
by a person, it doesn't belong in any kind of stable repository.
It isn't cooker, after all. This is people's production machines.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 05:42:22AM -0400, Austin wrote:
> >Ok, then people need to specify which wiki they're talking about. On the
> >expert list, unless otherwise stated, people are talking about the
> >community
> >wiki. On this list, I assume (unless otherwise stated) that they're
> >referring to the cooker wiki... this is, after all, the cooker mailing list
> >and we are, after all, discussing cooker. =)
>
> Woh. You lost me.
> That other wiki is there other than the community wiki
> (qa.mandrakesoft.com/ wiki)?
This is what I meant. =) The above is the cooker wiki... the community
wiki is http://mandrake.vmlinuz.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Luca Berra : > Would other contributors be adverse on taking the commitment of > maintaining 'stable' packages for 'supported' version of mandrake (that > should be 18 months or 3 releases IIRC)? Yes, unless someone give me the means to test those packages. I only run cooker for my desktops, and stable for my servers. I don't want to maitain three other versions just to test packages. Morevoer, the more version you want to support, the more difficult it is. Given the current mdk policy of releasing often, and the current situation of no support at all (security excepted), supporting lastest stable version only seems for me an achievable goal, not three. -- Any cool program always requires more memory than you have. -- Murphy's Computer Laws n°2
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On 10/02/2003 01:41:29 AM, Vincent Danen wrote: Ok, then people need to specify which wiki they're talking about. On the expert list, unless otherwise stated, people are talking about the community wiki. On this list, I assume (unless otherwise stated) that they're referring to the cooker wiki... this is, after all, the cooker mailing list and we are, after all, discussing cooker. =) Woh. You lost me. That other wiki is there other than the community wiki (qa.mandrakesoft.com/ wiki)? Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Vincent Danen : > On Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 12:47:50AM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: > > > > I don't believe there is anyone enjoying having to mantain 4 > > > > different packages of the same software when one would suffice. > > > > > > Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker machine and > > > compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if your package, despite > > > having conditional build macros, will work with an older distrib if you > > > don't take the time to build and test on that old platform? So you > > > *do* need to maintain it in such a manner otherwise you're just pumping > > > out stuff that pretends to work on old distribs and you really don't > > > have a clue if it does or not. > > > > But, the point is that if people are interested in maintaining their > > packages for rebuild on older releases, then it may be possible to make > > this easier by having automated rebuilds on stable releases. > > Yes, but don't you understand that automatic rebuilds is not enough? It > needs to be *tested* first. I didn't pretend it was enough, just that getting stable versions for free, without any additional human resources need, would be a gain over current situation. It would not bring an updated version of stable distribution for sure, but at least provide packages with far better chance of working on stable version that cooker packages. And nothing prevent packagers from testing on stable, as well as they are testing on cooker. -- The Cavalry doesn't always come to the rescue -- Murphy's Military Laws n°76
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Buchan Milne wrote: I have added docs to MandrakeClub, and to the Mandrake Community Wiki, and I don't think you can compare the two fairly at present. Abusing the splatt forum for documentation results is a worse tool than a wiki. I had asked Deno about a wiki for the documentation section on Club, but he didn't have time to look at it. Now we could ask Stephane, the new webmaster of the club. I shall get in touch with him. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Eric Fernandez wrote: > > > Buchan Milne wrote: > >> >> >> If you mean that it's final place should be on a website/wiki, then IMHO >> http://mandrake.vmlinuz.ca is currently a better place (and you will get >> a password immediately). >> > > Thanks, I did not know that one. > Guillaume : I could begin there, and once finished, we could report it > on urpmi.org. > But another place would be Mandrakeclub : there is a doc section, and > mandrake tools should be visible where the newbies come first. I have added docs to MandrakeClub, and to the Mandrake Community Wiki, and I don't think you can compare the two fairly at present. Abusing the splatt forum for documentation results is a worse tool than a wiki. I had asked Deno about a wiki for the documentation section on Club, but he didn't have time to look at it. - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/e/6BrJK6UGDSBKcRAgWZAKCfpMgc3oYEsjBX4raonJpxXwIniQCgonrL nl2xU4pYH9y8Smd2BUKZdoI= =EqV2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Buchan Milne wrote: If you mean that it's final place should be on a website/wiki, then IMHO http://mandrake.vmlinuz.ca is currently a better place (and you will get a password immediately). Thanks, I did not know that one. Guillaume : I could begin there, and once finished, we could report it on urpmi.org. But another place would be Mandrakeclub : there is a doc section, and mandrake tools should be visible where the newbies come first. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 04:09:58PM -0600, Vincent Danen wrote: > On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 08:53:55PM +0200, Simon Oosthoek wrote: > > Oh yeah, I know this attitude ;-) I also know where your annoyance comes > > from. But you shouldn't feel threatened by or superior to cooker people > > trying to help mandrake succeed! In a lot of cases, the only way outsiders > > Well, I've never felt superior, and I certainly don't feel threatened. > Annoyed more often would likely be accurate. I guess my wording sucked, but I'm not sure how else to put it (not native english speaker me ;-) > Now, if you want to whine and complain and offer suggestions for improvement > (*valid* useful suggestions, not some off the wall stuff), then by all > means, moan to your heart's content knowing that when you do you're actually > contributing something that can become positive. I don't really have the feeling that there is so much whining here, but maybe it's not directed at me... People have their particular opinions/experiences and stick to that, which can appear to be whining-like. > No, I don't expect a lot of "yah, it works, good job" bla bla. That's just > silly. That, while being nice and giving incentive to weary developers, is > not the issue. But don't people here understand how unbelieveably > frustrating it is to come up with something and/or propose something and > have people tear into it without providing some alternative suggestions? > Putting forward stuff to better the distro and/or the company is great! > Putting forward negative without an alternative or way to correct an issue > does no one any good. sometimes knowing something is broken for at least one person is better than not knowing it, even if no suggestion or alternative is provided. A next step could be to ask for more input on the problem, but that takes time and effort. Which can be in short supply... > I can tell you till I'm blue in the face why something is awful, but if I > don't give you a reasonable alternative to what it is I'm venting about, > what's the point? I least I'd know you hate it! ;-) > Absolutely. But that's not what we're talking about. My point is that this > list is so full of negative and people responding badly to things without > providing some appropriate insight or alternatives that it makes reading the > list tiresome. I doubt people on this list are negative in general or on purpose. If someone was on the list just to whine, they'd be pretty masochistic, since the traffic is way too heavy to suffer through when you don't care for the welbeing of mandrake and it's developers. But maybe I'm an optimist ;-) Cheers Simon
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 04:29:11PM -0600, Vincent Danen wrote: Some, not all. If packages were done to handle old versions while working with the current, this would be a different story. But this can be very difficult... I have some specs that can rebuild on older distribs and some of them are *very* convoluted. Take my qmail packages for example... before some of the pain could be eased if we had an updated rpm package for older versions (supported older versions, i mean, not 7.2) that levels the packaging macros to 9.2 I don't believe there is anyone enjoying having to mantain 4 different packages of the same software when one would suffice. Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker machine and compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if your package, despite having conditional build macros, will work with an older distrib if you don't take the time to build and test on that old platform? So you *do* need to maintain it in such a manner otherwise you're just pumping out stuff that pretends to work on old distribs and you really don't have a clue if it does or not. Yes, i do need to test and to maintain a package in such a manner. during last development cycle i had a 9.0 mail/web-server, a 9.1 laptop and a cooker box at home, and i usually tested stuff there. But that was from the same package, not different specs with different patches for each release. The problem for me will be when i upgrade the server to 9.2 :( Btw, some packages in contrib are very well packaged and maintained, some are playground for new features and some just suck, maybe splitting contrib in sections based on package quality and starting to maintain updates only for the stable part of contrib could be a start. (if this has already been discussed just shoot at me and i will shut up) Would other contributors be adverse on taking the commitment of maintaining 'stable' packages for 'supported' version of mandrake (that should be 18 months or 3 releases IIRC)? regards, L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media & Services S.r.l. /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 04:48:12PM -0400, Austin wrote:
> >The wiki is for cooker, no?
>
> The wiki is the the new 'community-assisted' Mandrake, not just for cooker.
>
> Mind you, that still doesn't mean Joe User will know about it.
Ok, then people need to specify which wiki they're talking about. On the
expert list, unless otherwise stated, people are talking about the community
wiki. On this list, I assume (unless otherwise stated) that they're
referring to the cooker wiki... this is, after all, the cooker mailing list
and we are, after all, discussing cooker. =)
There are also now links from mandrakelinux.com to the community wiki.
As an aside, I find amusing how people tried to tell me not to set this up
for the community (which, BTW, I'm running out of my own pocket because it
is not an official MandrakeSoft site) because it wouldn't be used and there
would be no interest.
It just goes to show that something many people disagree upon here can, in
fact, become something positive. I think the community wiki turned out
beautifully, despite all of the negative criticism received in the
beginning.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 12:47:50AM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:
> > > I don't believe there is anyone enjoying having to mantain 4 different
> > > packages of the same software when one would suffice.
> >
> > Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker machine and
> > compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if your package, despite having
> > conditional build macros, will work with an older distrib if you don't take
> > the time to build and test on that old platform? So you *do* need to
> > maintain it in such a manner otherwise you're just pumping out stuff that
> > pretends to work on old distribs and you really don't have a clue if it does
> > or not.
>
> But, the point is that if people are interested in maintaining their
> packages for rebuild on older releases, then it may be possible to make
> this easier by having automated rebuilds on stable releases.
Yes, but don't you understand that automatic rebuilds is not enough? It
needs to be *tested* first.
Man, I could automatically rebuild all kinds of stuff for updates but if I
didn't test them first people would have fits! =) If you're going to
update something for a stable release, you need to test it first. You can't
just throw it in and wait for feedback.
> I don't know if I can offer it, but we have a 150-machine (90 dedicated,
> 60 dual-boot) lab running Mandrake 9.1 somewhere here at the university,
> and we have a cooker mirror (that is usually not too far behind). It may
> be feasible (depending on how much time I have available) to set up some
> chroots on a machine on this network and use some or many of these for
> automatic rebuilds. We wouldn't be able to host the binaries, but we could
> probably host build output (ie slbd for stable releases).
Build output is great, but if an app doesn't work and no one tries it, what
good is it? Ie. on Corp 2.1/x86_64 apparently no one tried to do a search
in joe... it segfaults every time. Now, granted, not too many people were
able to test that (from my understanding) but a simple rebuild wouldn't have
shown that as being a problem. rpmlint could be happier than sin, slbd
could tell you nothing, but unless someone has written a program to fire up
a program and fiddle with it automatically and then notify you if there is a
problem or something doesn't operate properly *before* making it publically
available, there isn't much point to an automatic rebuild.
Auto rebuilds are great for cross-platform *current* development but trust
me... they will absolutely cause nightmares for backporting to older
releases.
The point of opening up "updates for contribs" is not to provide people with
junk that is auto-rebuilt. It's to provide people with an update which
implies a) better functionality and b) stable, to go with the rest of the
stable OS.
Your offer, while grand, is of limited real value unless the developer can
have some kind of elevated privileges to make sure that the server app they
are rebuilding works or be able to sit in front of the machine in X to make
sure their GUI app works.
I completely 110% believe in this. I've been doing this for a lot of
different software for three years and I know the little quirks that come
when backporting newer stuff to older distribs. That is why I'm not
building PPC updates on a machine in France; I have one here so that I can
actually test it. That is why I am getting an opteron machine here... not
just so that building is faster, but so that I can *test* everything before
it goes out the door. We had problems with 8.1/ia64 because I did not have
an ia64 machine here so everything that went out was virtually untested. It
compiled, yes, but as we've seen with joe for Corp 2.1, while most of it
worked, a criticial piece of it did not... There are things that a blind
rebuild cannot take into account for.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On 10/01/2003 08:37:02 PM, Vincent Danen wrote: The wiki is for cooker, no? The wiki is the the new 'community-assisted' Mandrake, not just for cooker. Mind you, that still doesn't mean Joe User will know about it. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 06:50:42PM -0400, Rob wrote:
> > Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker
> > machine and compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if
> > your package, despite having conditional build macros, will
> > work with an older distrib if you don't take the time to build
> > and test on that old platform? So you *do* need to maintain
>
> This is why there are a dozen sites out there like mine, where
> people who don't use cooker build the contrib packages they need
> for their version of the distribution and offer them for other
> people in the same boat. I seem to remember some
> dissatisfaction on the list about this situation; correct me if
> I'm wrong.
Agreed. I run one of them and just a few days ago was essentially told that
everything on rpmhelp.net should go in contribs. Not really an option for a
variety of reasons already discussed.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 01:52:17AM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > It has been said clearly... many many many times. contribs is *entirely*
> > unsupported. I don't know how many different ways I need to say the same
> > thing. =)
> Just create one page on the wiki explaining it ? This way it could become the
> "what are x and y sections" page i'm asking for without finding the time to
> do it myself.
The wiki is for cooker, no? What is this whole discussion about? It's
about joe user not knowing about contribs and cookers knowing about it.
So putting something on the wiki will not help... it will just tell the
people who already know.
I could add something to the advisories page on MandrakeSecure indicating
that contrib packages are entirely unsupported, however.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Vincent Danen wrote: > > It has been said clearly... many many many times. contribs is *entirely* > unsupported. I don't know how many different ways I need to say the same > thing. =) > Hmm.. i was not clear, i know it is unsupported. I meant, why does nobody ever says that there is no big red button in drakconf labelled "lots of cool software" because of it being unsupported. d. >
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Vincent Danen wrote: > > How? What exactly do you mean? Or, rather, how is that different from what > we currently have? ok, I am bad at explaining things, here goes: Currently contribs keeps up to date with cooker. We could either: - have a buildscript rebuild the whole tree for the last stable release (lots of mirrorspace required). Another problem with this approach is that the stuff would be fairly untested - a special contribs for the last stable release that we can still upload to, even if the main release is frozen. Some packagers wouldn't mind rebuilding /testing their stuff for the older release. but some will. But current club-contributers can also use this tree. In this way, the most wanted apps should be kept on par with what is in cooker. This could easily combined with what is currently happening in club. > > > - via club, but than fix club first: every contributer here should get > > access for uploading and a buildhost should be created. > > Agreed. One reason I'm less active on Club building is the interface to > deal with it is a severe PITA. It needs to be more contribs-like, an easy > way to get packages in. It also needs a controlled environment, like klama, > with chroots for older distribs that constantly have updates applied so that > stuff is built against a sane base. Yes, but who is going to do this? Should mdk do it, or should one of us set up such a host. And we need to integrate it with current scripts/stuff on club. So someone at mdk needs to make time for it. > > > > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how > > > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing > > > something useful. > > I think, it is just the way people use to (mis)communicate. Don't let it > > get to you. Afterall, we all have (approx) the same goal:) > > It's a constant thing. It's difficult not to let it. It seems to always > get to the point where it takes more time and energy to manage the cooker > crowd than any other community. > > Do you manage other communities as well? Anway, I could say that it is because smart people are the most difficult to manage. I could also say that we are so difficult because it is all about control: - we (as in contributers) are supposed to be contribute things. We (at least I) do this because it is fun to do, and because I really want mandrake to succeed. Really wanting someone/something to succeed at something causes you to give (unwanted) advice (my girlfriend hates it when I am just watching her play a game, because i keep saying what she should do). Mandrake doesn't want us to interfer in certain (policy/business) descissions, which is probably their good right. However, this doesn't matter at all, we all "know" what is best for you, and if you will not listen, we will say it anyway:) This frustrates you, leading to above statements (and, if i might add, I think some mdk people are not contributing as well as they should on this list because of this, which is sad but understandable), which will lead to some of us thinking: see, they do not listen! IMO this is exactly the big difference between debian and mdk. In debian, the people have real control (or at least most of them think they do). In redhat, there are hardly contributers, so nobody is complaining about control. In mandrake, we do not have any control at all, but we think we should have. But then, these are just thoughts, and may not reflect reality. If the last one is true, solutions that i see: - give contributers control (or at least a lot more). - give them another reason for packaging/testing (ie paying them;) - stop having contributers. - select only people who never critize anything :) I hate writing long mails. d.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Vincent Danen : > It has been said clearly... many many many times. contribs is *entirely* > unsupported. I don't know how many different ways I need to say the same > thing. =) Just create one page on the wiki explaining it ? This way it could become the "what are x and y sections" page i'm asking for without finding the time to do it myself. -- Guillaume Rousse The world does not revolve on an axis -- Murphy's Laws on Sex n°52
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Vincent Danen wrote: > > How? What exactly do you mean? Or, rather, how is that different from what > we currently have? ok, I am bad at explaining things, here goes: Currently contribs keeps up to date with cooker. We could either: - have a buildscript rebuild the whole tree for the last stable release (lots of mirrorspace required). Another problem with this approach is that the stuff would be fairly untested - a special contribs for the last stable release that we can still upload to, even if the main release is frozen. Some packagers wouldn't mind rebuilding /testing their stuff for the older release. but some will. But current club-contributers can also use this tree. In this way, the most wanted apps should be kept on par with what is in cooker. This could easily combined with what is currently happening in club. > > > - via club, but than fix club first: every contributer here should get > > access for uploading and a buildhost should be created. > > Agreed. One reason I'm less active on Club building is the interface to > deal with it is a severe PITA. It needs to be more contribs-like, an easy > way to get packages in. It also needs a controlled environment, like klama, > with chroots for older distribs that constantly have updates applied so that > stuff is built against a sane base. Yes, but who is going to do this? Should mdk do it, or should one of us set up such a host. And we need to integrate it with current scripts/stuff on club. So someone at mdk needs to make time for it. > > > > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how > > > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing > > > something useful. > > I think, it is just the way people use to (mis)communicate. Don't let it > > get to you. Afterall, we all have (approx) the same goal:) > > It's a constant thing. It's difficult not to let it. It seems to always > get to the point where it takes more time and energy to manage the cooker > crowd than any other community. > > Do you manage other communities as well? Anway, I could say that it is because smart people are the most difficult to manage. I could also say that we are so difficult because it is all about control: - we (as in contributers) are supposed to be contribute things. We (at least I) do this because it is fun to do, and because I really want mandrake to succeed. Really wanting someone/something to succeed at something causes you to give (unwanted) advice (my girlfriend hates it when I am just watching her play a game, because i keep saying what she should do). Mandrake doesn't want us to interfer in certain (policy/business) descissions, which is probably their good right. However, this doesn't matter at all, we all "know" what is best for you, and if you will not listen, we will say it anyway:) This frustrates you, leading to above statements (and, if i might add, I think some mdk people are not contributing as well as they should on this list because of this, which is sad but understandable), which will lead to some of us thinking: see, they do not listen! IMO this is exactly the big difference between debian and mdk. In debian, the people have real control (or at least most of them think they do). In redhat, there are hardly contributers, so nobody is complaining about control. In mandrake, we do not have any control at all, but we think we should have. But then, these are just thoughts, and may not reflect reality. If the last one is true, solutions that i see: - give contributers control (or at least a lot more). - give them another reason for packaging/testing (ie paying them;) - stop having contributers. - select only people who never critize anything :) I hate writing long mails. d.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wednesday 01 October 2003 18:29, Vincent Danen wrote: > Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker > machine and compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if > your package, despite having conditional build macros, will > work with an older distrib if you don't take the time to build > and test on that old platform? So you *do* need to maintain This is why there are a dozen sites out there like mine, where people who don't use cooker build the contrib packages they need for their version of the distribution and offer them for other people in the same boat. I seem to remember some dissatisfaction on the list about this situation; correct me if I'm wrong. Rob
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Vincent Danen wrote: > On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 11:11:28PM +0200, Luca Berra wrote: > > > I don't believe there is anyone enjoying having to mantain 4 different > > packages of the same software when one would suffice. > > Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker machine and > compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if your package, despite having > conditional build macros, will work with an older distrib if you don't take > the time to build and test on that old platform? So you *do* need to > maintain it in such a manner otherwise you're just pumping out stuff that > pretends to work on old distribs and you really don't have a clue if it does > or not. But, the point is that if people are interested in maintaining their packages for rebuild on older releases, then it may be possible to make this easier by having automated rebuilds on stable releases. I don't know if I can offer it, but we have a 150-machine (90 dedicated, 60 dual-boot) lab running Mandrake 9.1 somewhere here at the university, and we have a cooker mirror (that is usually not too far behind). It may be feasible (depending on how much time I have available) to set up some chroots on a machine on this network and use some or many of these for automatic rebuilds. We wouldn't be able to host the binaries, but we could probably host build output (ie slbd for stable releases). Regards, Buchan -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Vincent Danen wrote:
> On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 09:46:27PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
>
> > > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how
> > > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing
> > > something useful.
> > Vincent, i didn't intend to be rude, just to say that we first to have to make
> > the club work in a scalable and efficient manner first, and integrate it into
> > standard development process whereas it is currently completly run in a
> > parallel and amateurish way.
>
> I agree with you on this, but you need to provide a way to make it better,
> or at least begin that process. Simply saying it's no good doesn't help.
>
> Yes, Club building has to be managed in a better way and, realistically, it
> should leverage the resources we have... you guys. For instance, if there
> was a simple way to do a build on klama for current contribs and handle the
> backport/build in a chroot on the same machine and "ftpclub" or
> "ftpclub-testing", "ftpclub-stable", "ftpclub-commercial", (you know what I
> mean) to get something into Club easily would be a bonus.
As a first step, how about just having an ftpclub script (or multiple if
it's really necessary) which uses one account in the current Club setup
('contrib' or something) which allows people to upload from klama. We'll
assume for now that they have built the package on a suitable (clean
install for the related packages plus available updates), and we can get
to chroots later. This will allow contributors to provide updates without
the hassle of getting a club upload account etc etc (most benefit for
least effort).
On bigger packages, I scp to klama first, and then to Club from there
(since I don't want to upload another 30MB when the package goes straight
from testing to done).
>
> Retrieval of packages is easy; voting is still a good idea. It's the
> submission/building/management process that is trying that should be fixed.
>
> > Automatic rebuilding of all cooker packages for current stable version should
> > be enough to solve contrib update problems IMHO.
>
> I don't think so. I do a lot of backports all the time... =) You cannot
> just grab something from "current" (by which I refer to cooker and contribs)
> and just rebuild it. That will not work. It is a manual process.
Depends on the package. In a similar way, some packages can't be rebuilt
on the same release they were originally built on (ie due to buildrequires
etc). One is considered a bug, should we not consider the possibility that
automatic rebuilds on older releases are both possible, and desirable?
Regards,
Buchan
--
|Registered Linux User #182071-|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 11:11:28PM +0200, Luca Berra wrote:
> >>However, i think we should make this distinction between contrib and club
> >>disapear.
> >
> >Fine. This is a starting point. Now you need to think about what needs to
> >change. There will always be a distinction. Want to know what it is?
> >
> >contribs is parallel to cooker; it's development is done on cooker, for
> >cooker (or the next version)
> I am not that sure of this, there are packages on contrib that are made
> to be rebuilt on previous version of the distro.
> This is because some of the contributor actually use mandrake linux on
> production environments and some of them package things that they
> actually need.
Some, not all. If packages were done to handle old versions while working
with the current, this would be a different story. But this can be very
difficult... I have some specs that can rebuild on older distribs and some
of them are *very* convoluted. Take my qmail packages for example... before
my last rebuild, they would work all the way back to 7.2. I stripped out
all of that because it was making the spec an absolute mess.
> >Club, on the other hand, does not do development for cooker. It is
> >packages
> >for stable versions. Packages for Club are done for (now) 9.2, 9.1, 9.0,
> >etc.
> I don't believe there is anyone enjoying having to mantain 4 different
> packages of the same software when one would suffice.
Probably not. But if you, as a contributor, have a cooker machine and
compile on cooker, how can you possibly know if your package, despite having
conditional build macros, will work with an older distrib if you don't take
the time to build and test on that old platform? So you *do* need to
maintain it in such a manner otherwise you're just pumping out stuff that
pretends to work on old distribs and you really don't have a clue if it does
or not.
--
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Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 08:45:21PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Sure, but they need to be available *where the user can find it
> > conveniently*. It's pointless adding it to yet another site. Maybe there
> > should be an item in MandrakeGalaxy "Install more software"?
>
> wouldn't really help much IMO.
> All imho:
> the real problem here I think is a support issue. If Mandrake wanted they
> could have added an urpmi source for contribs in 2 hours, with a nice
> mirrorlist et al (just like the current urpmi source for updates).
>
> However, it is being blocked because contribs cannot be made part of
> distro because they will have to support it (now, why doesn't someone just
> say so clearly?). This is ofcourse also the reason there are no updates
> for contrib.
It has been said clearly... many many many times. contribs is *entirely*
unsupported. I don't know how many different ways I need to say the same
thing. =)
--
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Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wednesday 01 October 2003 21:40, Guillaume Rousse wrote: > Even if no wiki is currently available, i really think we should > better use domain name urpmi.org, and make it the mdk equivalent of > apt-get.org. apt-get.org is an aberation. having to search on a webpage each time people want a package is one step behind, in my opinion. -- Mickaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 09:46:27PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how
> > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing
> > something useful.
> Vincent, i didn't intend to be rude, just to say that we first to have to make
> the club work in a scalable and efficient manner first, and integrate it into
> standard development process whereas it is currently completly run in a
> parallel and amateurish way.
I agree with you on this, but you need to provide a way to make it better,
or at least begin that process. Simply saying it's no good doesn't help.
Yes, Club building has to be managed in a better way and, realistically, it
should leverage the resources we have... you guys. For instance, if there
was a simple way to do a build on klama for current contribs and handle the
backport/build in a chroot on the same machine and "ftpclub" or
"ftpclub-testing", "ftpclub-stable", "ftpclub-commercial", (you know what I
mean) to get something into Club easily would be a bonus.
Retrieval of packages is easy; voting is still a good idea. It's the
submission/building/management process that is trying that should be fixed.
> Automatic rebuilding of all cooker packages for current stable version should
> be enough to solve contrib update problems IMHO.
I don't think so. I do a lot of backports all the time... =) You cannot
just grab something from "current" (by which I refer to cooker and contribs)
and just rebuild it. That will not work. It is a manual process.
I believe there needs to be some quality control, like there currently is
with Club. Packages go in testing, people test, vote, etc. and if it's
deemed stable enough, it goes into stable. Club packaging has to be
different from "current" because your target is entirely different (people's
production/stable systems, not developer systems).
--
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Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 08:54:40PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > My point regarding contribs has been made over and over again. I'm tired of
> > repeating myself. I made a suggestion regarding how "contrib updates" could
> > be distributed and was basically told it was too much work and that it was a
> > stupid idea. Fine. I'm still waiting for suggestions. I gave my opinion
> > and a solution and, as seems to be the case so often on this list, people
> > bitch and complain about a proposed potential solution but don't offer
> > anything better.
> >
> my ideas:
> - always evolving contribs dir
How? What exactly do you mean? Or, rather, how is that different from what
we currently have?
> - via club, but than fix club first: every contributer here should get
> access for uploading and a buildhost should be created.
Agreed. One reason I'm less active on Club building is the interface to
deal with it is a severe PITA. It needs to be more contribs-like, an easy
way to get packages in. It also needs a controlled environment, like klama,
with chroots for older distribs that constantly have updates applied so that
stuff is built against a sane base.
> > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how
> > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing
> > something useful.
> I think, it is just the way people use to (mis)communicate. Don't let it
> get to you. Afterall, we all have (approx) the same goal:)
It's a constant thing. It's difficult not to let it. It seems to always
get to the point where it takes more time and energy to manage the cooker
crowd than any other community.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 08:53:55PM +0200, Simon Oosthoek wrote:
> > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how
> > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing
> > something useful.
>
> Oh yeah, I know this attitude ;-) I also know where your annoyance comes
> from. But you shouldn't feel threatened by or superior to cooker people
> trying to help mandrake succeed! In a lot of cases, the only way outsiders
Well, I've never felt superior, and I certainly don't feel threatened.
Annoyed more often would likely be accurate.
> can help is by following the development of mandrakesoft's linux and
> occasionally test something. A few of us (actually, quite a few I guess)
> are able to spend time maintaining software for mandrakesoft. (And thus for
> all of us!). The rest is give feedback about what's going wrong (and
> opinions vary among individuals).
No. Giving feedback is one thing. Giving feedback and constructive
suggestions on improvement is another. One could say that the constant
whining, complaining, etc. is feedback. Sure, it is, but how is it going to
help? Just makes people look like a bunch of babies.
Now, if you want to whine and complain and offer suggestions for improvement
(*valid* useful suggestions, not some off the wall stuff), then by all
means, moan to your heart's content knowing that when you do you're actually
contributing something that can become positive.
> If most of the comments here (in cooker) would be about how well everything
> is going and how wonderful mandrake is, who would get his head out of the
> clouds to dig in and actually fix the things that are still sub-optimal?
> The kernel mailinglist is also not a place where nice words are used to lead
> up to a serious bugreport, people just say: this is broken and here's why
> (the last bit is wishful thinking on my part ;-)
No, I don't expect a lot of "yah, it works, good job" bla bla. That's just
silly. That, while being nice and giving incentive to weary developers, is
not the issue. But don't people here understand how unbelieveably
frustrating it is to come up with something and/or propose something and
have people tear into it without providing some alternative suggestions?
Putting forward stuff to better the distro and/or the company is great!
Putting forward negative without an alternative or way to correct an issue
does no one any good.
I can tell you till I'm blue in the face why something is awful, but if I
don't give you a reasonable alternative to what it is I'm venting about,
what's the point?
> I like mandrake's linux, so I appreciate all the work everyone puts into it
> and I understand that everyone's time is limited, including mandrakesoft's.
>
> In order for us to focus on helping mdk where it will be most visible and
> useful, we need to know where mdk is going.
Absolutely. But that's not what we're talking about. My point is that this
list is so full of negative and people responding badly to things without
providing some appropriate insight or alternatives that it makes reading the
list tiresome.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 12:13:21PM -0600, Vincent Danen wrote: On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 07:49:36PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote: However, i think we should make this distinction between contrib and club disapear. Fine. This is a starting point. Now you need to think about what needs to change. There will always be a distinction. Want to know what it is? contribs is parallel to cooker; it's development is done on cooker, for cooker (or the next version) I am not that sure of this, there are packages on contrib that are made to be rebuilt on previous version of the distro. This is because some of the contributor actually use mandrake linux on production environments and some of them package things that they actually need. Club, on the other hand, does not do development for cooker. It is packages for stable versions. Packages for Club are done for (now) 9.2, 9.1, 9.0, etc. I don't believe there is anyone enjoying having to mantain 4 different packages of the same software when one would suffice. Regards, L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media & Services S.r.l. /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Vincent Danen : > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing > something useful. Vincent, i didn't intend to be rude, just to say that we first to have to make the club work in a scalable and efficient manner first, and integrate it into standard development process whereas it is currently completly run in a parallel and amateurish way. Automatic rebuilding of all cooker packages for current stable version should be enough to solve contrib update problems IMHO. -- Guillaume Rousse Puritanism - The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy -- H.L. Mencken on Murphy n°7
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Buchan Milne : > Eric Fernandez wrote: > > Buchan Milne wrote: > >> Which means that this information needs to be more readily accessible > >> ... directly. Think about users who hardly have internet access ... > >> > >> I really think the documentation aspect (making it easy for newbies to > >> find the documentation they need) is the problem that needs to be solved > >> next. > > > > It is exactly my point, and pages like the one you did for your > > university mirrors are a good way. I shall try to do something > > graphical, then post it in my wiki (when Warly finally activates my > > access... Warly ? ;) ) > > If you mean that it's final place should be on a website/wiki, then IMHO > http://mandrake.vmlinuz.ca is currently a better place (and you will get > a password immediately). Even if no wiki is currently available, i really think we should better use domain name urpmi.org, and make it the mdk equivalent of apt-get.org. This domain name has been specificaly bought by Cedric for such purposes. So far it is just a bunch of already existing documentation, but it could largely get enhanced. Olivier's script currently known as a plf subproject http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon should also be made available from there. Being independant from mdksoft would also save us from the legal concerns about direct links toward PLF & co. -- Guillaume Rousse If you can't change the rules, then ignore them -- Anti- Murphy's Laws n°10
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Vincent Danen wrote: > My point regarding contribs has been made over and over again. I'm tired of > repeating myself. I made a suggestion regarding how "contrib updates" could > be distributed and was basically told it was too much work and that it was a > stupid idea. Fine. I'm still waiting for suggestions. I gave my opinion > and a solution and, as seems to be the case so often on this list, people > bitch and complain about a proposed potential solution but don't offer > anything better. > my ideas: - always evolving contribs dir - via club, but than fix club first: every contributer here should get access for uploading and a buildhost should be created. > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing > something useful. I think, it is just the way people use to (mis)communicate. Don't let it get to you. Afterall, we all have (approx) the same goal:) d. > >
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Buchan Milne wrote: > Sure, but they need to be available *where the user can find it > conveniently*. It's pointless adding it to yet another site. Maybe there > should be an item in MandrakeGalaxy "Install more software"? wouldn't really help much IMO. All imho: the real problem here I think is a support issue. If Mandrake wanted they could have added an urpmi source for contribs in 2 hours, with a nice mirrorlist et al (just like the current urpmi source for updates). However, it is being blocked because contribs cannot be made part of distro because they will have to support it (now, why doesn't someone just say so clearly?). This is ofcourse also the reason there are no updates for contrib. Ofcourse, it is a bit silly that paying clubmembers now pay and get very unsupported packages from mandrakeclub anyway. Most of them of worse quality than contribs (as occasional club-packager I can say this;). Contribs not being easily accesible devaluates the product currently. So to whoever is responsible: please think again about this. If it is not fixed i think we should just try and hack it into the draktools ourselves and distribute custom made cds. Having contribs one click away is the only good solution. Also, is it a stupid idea to have contribs never frozen, i cannot oversee the consequences of this, but itT would satisfy many request for updates (both normal and security). If not, then club stuff should be integrated better with current cooker contributers. And a buildhost would be a very good start. d.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 12:06:21PM -0600, Vincent Danen wrote: > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing > something useful. Oh yeah, I know this attitude ;-) I also know where your annoyance comes from. But you shouldn't feel threatened by or superior to cooker people trying to help mandrake succeed! In a lot of cases, the only way outsiders can help is by following the development of mandrakesoft's linux and occasionally test something. A few of us (actually, quite a few I guess) are able to spend time maintaining software for mandrakesoft. (And thus for all of us!). The rest is give feedback about what's going wrong (and opinions vary among individuals). If most of the comments here (in cooker) would be about how well everything is going and how wonderful mandrake is, who would get his head out of the clouds to dig in and actually fix the things that are still sub-optimal? The kernel mailinglist is also not a place where nice words are used to lead up to a serious bugreport, people just say: this is broken and here's why (the last bit is wishful thinking on my part ;-) I like mandrake's linux, so I appreciate all the work everyone puts into it and I understand that everyone's time is limited, including mandrakesoft's. In order for us to focus on helping mdk where it will be most visible and useful, we need to know where mdk is going. Cheers Simon
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Vincent Danen wrote: > On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 06:58:50PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: > > I know all of this, just because i've been there for 4 years now. My >> >>point is >> that i'm fed up with oral tradition. No one knows about contribs outside cooker communauty. Among the few newbies that know about urpmi, they >> >>always >> use urpmi.update whereas none of their sources ever change. Etc... What we lack here is a clear explanation of mdk functionning targeted at outside world. >>> >>>Your problem then is not the lack of a policy defining support (or lack >>>thereof) for contribs then. Your problem is the lack of awareness of >>>contribs. > > > You took my message out of context. When I meant "your problem" I meant the > problem he was discussing. Maybe I should have said "your issue is" rather > than use the word problem. > > >>Actually, it's not our problem. It's Mandrakesoft's problem. People think: >>- -Redhat is better on a server >>- -Debian has so many more useful packages than other distros >> >>When in fact Mandrake is as good (or better IMHO) than Redhat on a >>server, and Mandrake has more up-to-date versions of most of the >>packages Debian has. >> >>Mandrakesoft is the one trying to sell Mandrake, not us. > > > No, and I never said it was. contribs has no bearing on the server > argument. The debian comparison is valid. > > >>>I can't help you on the last one. >> >>We can't help you (Mandrakesoft) improve the image of the distro if >>you're not going to make those improvements (such as the inclusion of >>up-to-date grass packages including all features and all dependencies, >>samba3 which I am sure Redhat will be touting for their next release >>etc) visible. > > > Not sure what you mean by "grass packages". # urpmi grass (or for a better experience with it the first time, 'spearfish-grass'). > > >>And we can't do anything more about it ... >> >>It seems as if Mandrakesoft management is embarassed to have upstanding >>community members maintain packages which they advertise, whereas Redhat >>suddenly seems not to be. > > > Can't speak for management. Don't even want to try. > > My point regarding contribs has been made over and over again. I'm tired of > repeating myself. I made a suggestion regarding how "contrib updates" could > be distributed and was basically told it was too much work and that it was a > stupid idea. Fine. I'm still waiting for suggestions. I gave my opinion > and a solution and, as seems to be the case so often on this list, people > bitch and complain about a proposed potential solution but don't offer > anything better. I didn't read Guillaume's mail as pertaining solely to updates for contrib, but the whole issue of contrib being totally unknown and/or unadvertised beyond cooker-types due to the fact that it is given no publicity (something like "Mandrakesoft cannot include all the available packages in the 3 GPL CDs, however many more packages are available on the FTP mirrors as the 'contrib' urpmi medium"). > > If you can't think of anything better, then don't knock a valid suggestion. I am happy with updates in Club, but I don't think the complaint was limited to updates. > > Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how > hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing > something useful. > ftp://ftp.sun.ac.za/mandrake/mandrake-devel/unsupported/MandrakeClub/9.1/i586/pam_smb-1.1.7-1mdk.i586.rpm Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/exm6rJK6UGDSBKcRAiyhAKCFjcMPoANBAWU78CU+CsW18GsjVgCggi4Q c5G7Fm1aOyvA8Fd4RodSQ6o= =zM1J -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 07:49:36PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > > > In my mind, the best solution is to put updates in Club. That way they
> > > > make it to the Club mirrors and everyone can take advantage of them
> > > > since non-Club members can also access them. That would be my best
> > > > solution and my preference. Then I don't have to get involved at all.
> > >
> > > Unless that contributers and volonteers are two different set of people,
> > > with different practices, and sofar everything has been done to keep them
> > > separated.
> > >
> > > Even if i pesonally have an honorific club membership, i'd dislike having
> > > to ask yet another account just because i'd like to maintain my packages.
> >
> > Fine. Instead of shooting down my suggestion, why not try to suggest one
> > yourself?
> I don't have any, unfortunatly.
If you don't have a better one, then don't shoot down one that works.
> However, i think we should make this distinction between contrib and club
> disapear.
Fine. This is a starting point. Now you need to think about what needs to
change. There will always be a distinction. Want to know what it is?
contribs is parallel to cooker; it's development is done on cooker, for
cooker (or the next version)
Club, on the other hand, does not do development for cooker. It is packages
for stable versions. Packages for Club are done for (now) 9.2, 9.1, 9.0,
etc.
So how do you propose to merge the two when they have two completely
different targets? contribs is not designed/built/whatever for older
releases, Club is. Club is not designed/built/whatever for cooker...
contribs is.
This makes making the distinction disappear more difficult. It's like
trying to say that the distinction between cooker and updates should
disappear. That's easy to say, but difficult to do.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 06:58:50PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:
> >>I know all of this, just because i've been there for 4 years now. My
> point is
> >>that i'm fed up with oral tradition. No one knows about contribs outside
> >>cooker communauty. Among the few newbies that know about urpmi, they
> always
> >>use urpmi.update whereas none of their sources ever change. Etc...
> >>
> >>What we lack here is a clear explanation of mdk functionning targeted at
> >>outside world.
> >
> > Your problem then is not the lack of a policy defining support (or lack
> > thereof) for contribs then. Your problem is the lack of awareness of
> > contribs.
You took my message out of context. When I meant "your problem" I meant the
problem he was discussing. Maybe I should have said "your issue is" rather
than use the word problem.
> Actually, it's not our problem. It's Mandrakesoft's problem. People think:
> - -Redhat is better on a server
> - -Debian has so many more useful packages than other distros
>
> When in fact Mandrake is as good (or better IMHO) than Redhat on a
> server, and Mandrake has more up-to-date versions of most of the
> packages Debian has.
>
> Mandrakesoft is the one trying to sell Mandrake, not us.
No, and I never said it was. contribs has no bearing on the server
argument. The debian comparison is valid.
> > I can't help you on the last one.
>
> We can't help you (Mandrakesoft) improve the image of the distro if
> you're not going to make those improvements (such as the inclusion of
> up-to-date grass packages including all features and all dependencies,
> samba3 which I am sure Redhat will be touting for their next release
> etc) visible.
Not sure what you mean by "grass packages".
> And we can't do anything more about it ...
>
> It seems as if Mandrakesoft management is embarassed to have upstanding
> community members maintain packages which they advertise, whereas Redhat
> suddenly seems not to be.
Can't speak for management. Don't even want to try.
My point regarding contribs has been made over and over again. I'm tired of
repeating myself. I made a suggestion regarding how "contrib updates" could
be distributed and was basically told it was too much work and that it was a
stupid idea. Fine. I'm still waiting for suggestions. I gave my opinion
and a solution and, as seems to be the case so often on this list, people
bitch and complain about a proposed potential solution but don't offer
anything better.
If you can't think of anything better, then don't knock a valid suggestion.
Suddenly I'm getting very tired of all of this again. Seems no matter how
hard you try, someone has something negative to say without contributing
something useful.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Vincent Danen : > On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 01:50:24PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote: > > > In my mind, the best solution is to put updates in Club. That way they > > > make it to the Club mirrors and everyone can take advantage of them > > > since non-Club members can also access them. That would be my best > > > solution and my preference. Then I don't have to get involved at all. > > > > Unless that contributers and volonteers are two different set of people, > > with different practices, and sofar everything has been done to keep them > > separated. > > > > Even if i pesonally have an honorific club membership, i'd dislike having > > to ask yet another account just because i'd like to maintain my packages. > > Fine. Instead of shooting down my suggestion, why not try to suggest one > yourself? I don't have any, unfortunatly. However, i think we should make this distinction between contrib and club disapear. -- If you DO follow the advice of more experienced modemers and use a totally different password on every BBS you call, you will forget the password of the board where your date has left a message telling you where to meet them tonight -- Murphy's Laws of BBS'ing n°7
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Eric Fernandez wrote: > Buchan Milne wrote: >> Which means that this information needs to be more readily accessible >> ... directly. Think about users who hardly have internet access ... >> >> I really think the documentation aspect (making it easy for newbies to >> find the documentation they need) is the problem that needs to be solved >> next. >> > It is exactly my point, and pages like the one you did for your > university mirrors are a good way. I shall try to do something > graphical, then post it in my wiki (when Warly finally activates my > access... Warly ? ;) ) If you mean that it's final place should be on a website/wiki, then IMHO http://mandrake.vmlinuz.ca is currently a better place (and you will get a password immediately). However, IMHO the solution must be to have better documentation installed on the machine (not on the net, what if you are trying to trouble-shoot connecting to the net, or don't have access for some other reason?). Compare: http://ranger.dnsalias.com/mandrake/screenshots/mandrake-cooker-9.2-khelpcenter.png http://ranger.dnsalias.com/mandrake/screenshots/mandrake-cooker-9.2-yelp.png To: http://ranger.dnsalias.com/mandrake/screenshots/win2k3/help_center_linux.png It's no problem writing the documentation: http://mandrake.vmlinuz.ca/bin/view/Main/SambaDomainController The problem is that it's inaccessible to many people, and not found by the rest. This is another problem that needs to be solved in a scalable manner ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ew7arJK6UGDSBKcRArvTAKC20r+1kR1t0tPbR19B6d/dg2GVHwCfb3zf jv4+07gOnHiMn7KemN/772g= =aYXD -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Vincent Danen wrote: > On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 12:08:46PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote: > >>I know all of this, just because i've been there for 4 years now. My point is >>that i'm fed up with oral tradition. No one knows about contribs outside >>cooker communauty. Among the few newbies that know about urpmi, they always >>use urpmi.update whereas none of their sources ever change. Etc... >> >>What we lack here is a clear explanation of mdk functionning targeted at >>outside world. > > Your problem then is not the lack of a policy defining support (or lack > thereof) for contribs then. Your problem is the lack of awareness of > contribs. Actually, it's not our problem. It's Mandrakesoft's problem. People think: - -Redhat is better on a server - -Debian has so many more useful packages than other distros When in fact Mandrake is as good (or better IMHO) than Redhat on a server, and Mandrake has more up-to-date versions of most of the packages Debian has. Mandrakesoft is the one trying to sell Mandrake, not us. > I can't help you on the last one. We can't help you (Mandrakesoft) improve the image of the distro if you're not going to make those improvements (such as the inclusion of up-to-date grass packages including all features and all dependencies, samba3 which I am sure Redhat will be touting for their next release etc) visible. And we can't do anything more about it ... It seems as if Mandrakesoft management is embarassed to have upstanding community members maintain packages which they advertise, whereas Redhat suddenly seems not to be. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ewfKrJK6UGDSBKcRAgFeAJ9BCDe7JTFSdrzG2zny7gVHD6vfngCgxY/6 DhWYHm1CTeTLfIOfOsCGN0o= =sOgP -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Buchan Milne wrote: http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/features.php3#5 It's not pushed less than any other feature ... Right, but they are still missed by many newbies, since they often go to the club page now. Mandrakelinux page is good for PR announcements and developers. Look at the questions on Mandrakeclub forum... 80% have been answered before. Sure, but they need to be available *where the user can find it conveniently*. It's pointless adding it to yet another site. Maybe there should be an item in MandrakeGalaxy "Install more software"? I even got a file with the most frequently answers that I use to copy/paste ! :) Which means that this information needs to be more readily accessible ... directly. Think about users who hardly have internet access ... I really think the documentation aspect (making it easy for newbies to find the documentation they need) is the problem that needs to be solved next. It is exactly my point, and pages like the one you did for your university mirrors are a good way. I shall try to do something graphical, then post it in my wiki (when Warly finally activates my access... Warly ? ;) ) Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Eric Fernandez wrote: > Buchan Milne wrote: > >>> Wow ! I think you misunderstood : I wrote "main" applications, most >>> important in every categories, not every one application in main and >>> contrib. A presentation of Xine, mplayer in multimedia, etc... I never >>> wrote "all applications in contrib". >>> >> >> >> A lot of the useful ones are in contrib, many of the "main" ones are >> installed by default. >> >> > OK, let's say the "main" ones in contrib. I think you see my point anyway. > >> >> >> Firstly, had the users tried to soearch for the software in rpmdrake?? >> > Good point. But some newbies don't even know the existence of rpmdrake. > It is not pushed forward by Mandrakesoft, this is what I criticise. http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/features.php3#5 It's not pushed less than any other feature ... > Look > at the questions on Mandrakeclub forum... 80% have been answered before. Sure, but they need to be available *where the user can find it conveniently*. It's pointless adding it to yet another site. Maybe there should be an item in MandrakeGalaxy "Install more software"? > I even got a file with the most frequently answers that I use to > copy/paste ! :) > Which means that this information needs to be more readily accessible ... directly. Think about users who hardly have internet access ... I really think the documentation aspect (making it easy for newbies to find the documentation they need) is the problem that needs to be solved next. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ewK2rJK6UGDSBKcRAheuAJ9Y0oncaBjuawTGQU186SeR0mTQ/wCgpAEO BVh0nxurN/hthDCw7AjTeeU= =UnIq -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Buchan Milne wrote: (why does everything assume everyone has free internet access) http://www.sulug.sun.ac.za/distros/mandrake/mandrake.html It is great, yes I would like to create something like that for Mandrakeclub. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Buchan Milne wrote: Wow ! I think you misunderstood : I wrote "main" applications, most important in every categories, not every one application in main and contrib. A presentation of Xine, mplayer in multimedia, etc... I never wrote "all applications in contrib". A lot of the useful ones are in contrib, many of the "main" ones are installed by default. OK, let's say the "main" ones in contrib. I think you see my point anyway. Firstly, had the users tried to soearch for the software in rpmdrake?? Good point. But some newbies don't even know the existence of rpmdrake. It is not pushed forward by Mandrakesoft, this is what I criticise. Look at the questions on Mandrakeclub forum... 80% have been answered before. I even got a file with the most frequently answers that I use to copy/paste ! :) Sure this is useful (although I thought rpmdrake was pretty easy to use?). Did you have to see a tutorial to use Windows "Add/Remove Software"? Why do new linux users just not use the software?? Because they think the software does not exist. Because after installing the 3CDs, they don't know they need to add the contrib repository to get full power... It is what I want to put in a tutorial. There's a link to google isn't there? How difficult is it to find DMCA-offending material with google? Maybe we shouldn't link to any search engines in the default bookmarks? For instance: http://www.google.com/search?q=play%20dvd%20on%20linux (look at the first few entries) Wait, maybe we shouldn't install a web browser? But then people might still come to know of this software by email, let's remove the email clients too ... I am sure a disclaimer would be sufficient when running urpmi.setup. As I said I am not a jurist and I don't think I am able to discuss this point. I just want to point out the weirdness of some trials and verdicts (DeCSS, Mobilix, and so on...) So, you have some funds for a large marketing budget? And word of mouth is often more successful than formal marketing and promotion ... I don't think that creating a graphical tour of rpmdrake, like in trylinuxsd.com needs a large marketing budget. Some HTML pages that would be in good place on Mandrakeclub, showing the features of Mandrake could attract people. Simple shots with Enemy Territory to illustrate how it is easy to use club packages to get an accelerated 3D in 5 minutes could be sexy and attract newcomers. BTW, I proposed to do a skeleton of this guide myself ;) Cheers Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 01:50:24PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > In my mind, the best solution is to put updates in Club. That way they
> > make it to the Club mirrors and everyone can take advantage of them since
> > non-Club members can also access them. That would be my best solution and
> > my preference. Then I don't have to get involved at all.
> Unless that contributers and volonteers are two different set of people, with
> different practices, and sofar everything has been done to keep them
> separated.
>
> Even if i pesonally have an honorific club membership, i'd dislike having to
> ask yet another account just because i'd like to maintain my packages.
Fine. Instead of shooting down my suggestion, why not try to suggest one
yourself?
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 12:08:46PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > > Actually, there is no point just explaining servers in contrib are not
> > > updated. A real explanation of mandrake policy would be far better:
> > > - what is main, what is contrib, and what is update ?
> > > - what does get updated ?
> > > etc...
> >
> > Good grief.. everyone wants policy policy policy... =)
> >
> > Main is what is in the main tree. You know, what comes in the download
> > edition. The stuff that is labelled "not contribs". The meat of the
> > distro. The equivilant of Mandrake-devel/cooker/i586/Mandrake/RPMS
> >
> > Contribs is contribs. It's labelled as such.
> >
> > updates? Should be pretty obvious. Updates are stuff in main that need
> > fixing for whatever reason.
> >
> > Main gets updated. contribs doesn't.
> >
> > I don't see what is so difficult about this. This is how it has *always*
> > been. It hasn't changed. No need for a policy regarding it. This is just
> > how it's done.
> I know all of this, just because i've been there for 4 years now. My point is
> that i'm fed up with oral tradition. No one knows about contribs outside
> cooker communauty. Among the few newbies that know about urpmi, they always
> use urpmi.update whereas none of their sources ever change. Etc...
>
> What we lack here is a clear explanation of mdk functionning targeted at
> outside world.
Your problem then is not the lack of a policy defining support (or lack
thereof) for contribs then. Your problem is the lack of awareness of
contribs.
I can't help you on the last one.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Eric Fernandez wrote: > Buchan Milne wrote: >> Eric Fernandez wrote: >> >> >> >> What do you need a "graphical database" for? Do you mean screenshots? Do >> you know how big a set of screenshots would be for all the applications >> in contrib? In some cases a single screenshot could be larger than the >> whole package!! IMHO you only need this if you are actually *selling* >> applications (like Lindows). It may be worthwhile for the proprietary >> stuff in MandrakeClub, but quite pointless for contrib, especially >> considering the rate at which screenshots get obsoleted ... >> > Wow ! I think you misunderstood : I wrote "main" applications, most > important in every categories, not every one application in main and > contrib. A presentation of Xine, mplayer in multimedia, etc... I never > wrote "all applications in contrib". A lot of the useful ones are in contrib, many of the "main" ones are installed by default. > This would show new users the wide range of available softwares under > Linux. Why not combining with an table of Windows equivalent > applications, like on http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/ > What I am talking about comes from discussions with newbies on different > forums : hardware.fr but also mandrakeclub. After repeating hundred > times the same advices and guide, I guess I begin to have a clear idea > of what newbies miss and ask for. Firstly, had the users tried to soearch for the software in rpmdrake?? Secondly, yes, it might be an idea to have a table like this, or a link to a table like this *in the documentation*. But, at present, no-one would find it ... > > Anyway, this was not my main point. My main idea was not the database, > but a graphical tour of rpmdrake, configuring source, and software > search and management. Sure this is useful (although I thought rpmdrake was pretty easy to use?). Did you have to see a tutorial to use Windows "Add/Remove Software"? Why do new linux users just not use the software?? Anyway, I made a page for our local university, just because we have internal mirrors which aren't accessible from outside (so using http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/?minor=1 isn't feasible, and I never got urpmiweb to work sufficiently without it wanting to connect to the internet), and since internet access is expensive, user's don't want to go elsewhere for screenshots, so I just made a few available. (why does everything assume everyone has free internet access) http://www.sulug.sun.ac.za/distros/mandrake/mandrake.html >> rpmfind is also useless for the advanced user, who needs only urpmi. >> > agreed, except the presentation by categories on HTML pages is also > useful IMO. > >> I don't see why there should be any restrictions. Instead, the urpmi >> media should carry a description of the repository, and any repository >> which has legal problems would be required to stipulate those in the >> description. >> > I am not a jurist, but this may be a responsability problem for > Mandrakesoft to link to pages that offer links to... etc... "illegal" > softwares especially in the US with the DMCA. > There's a link to google isn't there? How difficult is it to find DMCA-offending material with google? Maybe we shouldn't link to any search engines in the default bookmarks? For instance: http://www.google.com/search?q=play%20dvd%20on%20linux (look at the first few entries) Wait, maybe we shouldn't install a web browser? But then people might still come to know of this software by email, let's remove the email clients too ... I am sure a disclaimer would be sufficient when running urpmi.setup. >> Does Mandrake advertise any other tools more? No. There simply isn't >> much advertising budget, but they are well documented all over. >> >> Does Debian advertise apt-get all the time? No. It's done by work of >> mouth. >> > Debian and Mandrake have not the same goals and the same public. > Mandrake is a company, it needs to make money, and this goes through > promotion and marketing. Word of mouth is generally not sufficient for a > company. > So, you have some funds for a large marketing budget? And word of mouth is often more successful than formal marketing and promotion ... >> The only way to counter this is for people to give better advice ... >> >> (BTW: ltmodem drivers can also be setup from Club in a similar way using >> drakconnect) >> > I agree. It is why a page about "3D with Nvidia" showing step by step > installation and configuration of drivers. > Almost every day on Mandrakeclub forum there is a post asking how to > install those drivers, or that they have a black screen, and newbies are > told each time to type XFdrake in the console. Of course, this should really be solved by better, comprehensive documentation, which is *really* easy to search on the Mandrake sites, and in Khelpcenter and Yelp. It's depressing trying to search for things like "display card" or similar in any of those tool
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Eric Fernandez wrote: What do you need a "graphical database" for? Do you mean screenshots? Do you know how big a set of screenshots would be for all the applications in contrib? In some cases a single screenshot could be larger than the whole package!! IMHO you only need this if you are actually *selling* applications (like Lindows). It may be worthwhile for the proprietary stuff in MandrakeClub, but quite pointless for contrib, especially considering the rate at which screenshots get obsoleted ... Wow ! I think you misunderstood : I wrote "main" applications, most important in every categories, not every one application in main and contrib. A presentation of Xine, mplayer in multimedia, etc... I never wrote "all applications in contrib". This would show new users the wide range of available softwares under Linux. Why not combining with an table of Windows equivalent applications, like on http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/ What I am talking about comes from discussions with newbies on different forums : hardware.fr but also mandrakeclub. After repeating hundred times the same advices and guide, I guess I begin to have a clear idea of what newbies miss and ask for. Anyway, this was not my main point. My main idea was not the database, but a graphical tour of rpmdrake, configuring source, and software search and management. rpmfind is also useless for the advanced user, who needs only urpmi. agreed, except the presentation by categories on HTML pages is also useful IMO. I don't see why there should be any restrictions. Instead, the urpmi media should carry a description of the repository, and any repository which has legal problems would be required to stipulate those in the description. I am not a jurist, but this may be a responsability problem for Mandrakesoft to link to pages that offer links to... etc... "illegal" softwares especially in the US with the DMCA. Does Mandrake advertise any other tools more? No. There simply isn't much advertising budget, but they are well documented all over. Does Debian advertise apt-get all the time? No. It's done by work of mouth. Debian and Mandrake have not the same goals and the same public. Mandrake is a company, it needs to make money, and this goes through promotion and marketing. Word of mouth is generally not sufficient for a company. And for the NVidia drivers, all you need to do is setup the Club source, and run XFdrake, reselect the display card, and it will install the drivers and set it up for you. So, this is how I suggest users do it, but some prefer to download the "latest and greatest", and follow the broken instruction in the documentation that come with them, and stuff up their XF86Config-4 file, and then complain that linux is too difficult ... The only way to counter this is for people to give better advice ... (BTW: ltmodem drivers can also be setup from Club in a similar way using drakconnect) I agree. It is why a page about "3D with Nvidia" showing step by step installation and configuration of drivers. Almost every day on Mandrakeclub forum there is a post asking how to install those drivers, or that they have a black screen, and newbies are told each time to type XFdrake in the console. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Eric Fernandez wrote: > I agree we need a good graphical user guide for rpmdrake/urpmi, and a > graphical database of main applications available (and the way to > install them). What do you need a "graphical database" for? Do you mean screenshots? Do you know how big a set of screenshots would be for all the applications in contrib? In some cases a single screenshot could be larger than the whole package!! IMHO you only need this if you are actually *selling* applications (like Lindows). It may be worthwhile for the proprietary stuff in MandrakeClub, but quite pointless for contrib, especially considering the rate at which screenshots get obsoleted ... > > There was a good guide on http://trylinuxsd.com, but the site has > disappeared (even the domain name is not registered anymore). Anybody > knows if it has been moved, and where the autor is ? > I wrote a guide about urpmi, I fancy now to do a similar graphical guide > than the one on trylinuxsd, but for general application installation. > Then, coupled with a base of main applications (forgive me, but I will > compare it with "Click-and-Run"), it could be a good start for > beginners. rpmfind is a very fine base, but useless for the beginner. rpmfind is also useless for the advanced user, who needs only urpmi. > > Another good thing for Mandrake 10 would be to combine urpmi.setup with > the source manager in rpmdrake. Agreed. > So that you can add sources with simple > clicks. Of course, there is the problem of PLF, that should not appear > on the source list. But at least, external sources should be easy to add. I don't see why there should be any restrictions. Instead, the urpmi media should carry a description of the repository, and any repository which has legal problems would be required to stipulate those in the description. > > I still don't understand why this wonderful piece of software that is > urpmi/rpmdrake, as well as the all set of drakxtools, are not more > advertised by Mandrakesoft. Does Mandrake advertise any other tools more? No. There simply isn't much advertising budget, but they are well documented all over. Does Debian advertise apt-get all the time? No. It's done by work of mouth. > Another example : Mandrakeclub has the ATi > 3D drivers. Most of people I know on forums (hardware.fr or rage3d), do > not even know this. This would be on the main page of Mandrakeclub, it > would boost the subscriptions. And for the NVidia drivers, all you need to do is setup the Club source, and run XFdrake, reselect the display card, and it will install the drivers and set it up for you. So, this is how I suggest users do it, but some prefer to download the "latest and greatest", and follow the broken instruction in the documentation that come with them, and stuff up their XF86Config-4 file, and then complain that linux is too difficult ... The only way to counter this is for people to give better advice ... (BTW: ltmodem drivers can also be setup from Club in a similar way using drakconnect) Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/euJnrJK6UGDSBKcRAqpQAJ4vm6bkSFyzhWfj0w8sW10SOZjfbQCfRFmb 05yJFFfceabWESl+9pF3FSg= =APQ7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Guillaume Rousse wrote: Ainsi parlait Vincent Danen : Actually, there is no point just explaining servers in contrib are not updated. A real explanation of mandrake policy would be far better: - what is main, what is contrib, and what is update ? - what does get updated ? etc... Good grief.. everyone wants policy policy policy... =) Main is what is in the main tree. You know, what comes in the download edition. The stuff that is labelled "not contribs". The meat of the distro. The equivilant of Mandrake-devel/cooker/i586/Mandrake/RPMS Contribs is contribs. It's labelled as such. updates? Should be pretty obvious. Updates are stuff in main that need fixing for whatever reason. Main gets updated. contribs doesn't. I don't see what is so difficult about this. This is how it has *always* been. It hasn't changed. No need for a policy regarding it. This is just how it's done. I know all of this, just because i've been there for 4 years now. My point is that i'm fed up with oral tradition. No one knows about contribs outside cooker communauty. Among the few newbies that know about urpmi, they always use urpmi.update whereas none of their sources ever change. Etc... What we lack here is a clear explanation of mdk functionning targeted at outside world. I agree we need a good graphical user guide for rpmdrake/urpmi, and a graphical database of main applications available (and the way to install them). There was a good guide on http://trylinuxsd.com, but the site has disappeared (even the domain name is not registered anymore). Anybody knows if it has been moved, and where the autor is ? I wrote a guide about urpmi, I fancy now to do a similar graphical guide than the one on trylinuxsd, but for general application installation. Then, coupled with a base of main applications (forgive me, but I will compare it with "Click-and-Run"), it could be a good start for beginners. rpmfind is a very fine base, but useless for the beginner. Another good thing for Mandrake 10 would be to combine urpmi.setup with the source manager in rpmdrake. So that you can add sources with simple clicks. Of course, there is the problem of PLF, that should not appear on the source list. But at least, external sources should be easy to add. I still don't understand why this wonderful piece of software that is urpmi/rpmdrake, as well as the all set of drakxtools, are not more advertised by Mandrakesoft. Another example : Mandrakeclub has the ATi 3D drivers. Most of people I know on forums (hardware.fr or rage3d), do not even know this. This would be on the main page of Mandrakeclub, it would boost the subscriptions. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Vincent Danen : > In my mind, the best solution is to put updates in Club. That way they > make it to the Club mirrors and everyone can take advantage of them since > non-Club members can also access them. That would be my best solution and > my preference. Then I don't have to get involved at all. Unless that contributers and volonteers are two different set of people, with different practices, and sofar everything has been done to keep them separated. Even if i pesonally have an honorific club membership, i'd dislike having to ask yet another account just because i'd like to maintain my packages. -- Enough dirt will get tracked into the tent on the first day out, that you can grow the food you need for the rest of the trip in rows between sleeping bags -- Murphy's Laws of Camping n°22
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Vincent Danen : > > Actually, there is no point just explaining servers in contrib are not > > updated. A real explanation of mandrake policy would be far better: > > - what is main, what is contrib, and what is update ? > > - what does get updated ? > > etc... > > Good grief.. everyone wants policy policy policy... =) > > Main is what is in the main tree. You know, what comes in the download > edition. The stuff that is labelled "not contribs". The meat of the > distro. The equivilant of Mandrake-devel/cooker/i586/Mandrake/RPMS > > Contribs is contribs. It's labelled as such. > > updates? Should be pretty obvious. Updates are stuff in main that need > fixing for whatever reason. > > Main gets updated. contribs doesn't. > > I don't see what is so difficult about this. This is how it has *always* > been. It hasn't changed. No need for a policy regarding it. This is just > how it's done. I know all of this, just because i've been there for 4 years now. My point is that i'm fed up with oral tradition. No one knows about contribs outside cooker communauty. Among the few newbies that know about urpmi, they always use urpmi.update whereas none of their sources ever change. Etc... What we lack here is a clear explanation of mdk functionning targeted at outside world. -- If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush -- Murphy's Military Laws n°47
Re: exim; was Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Saturday 27 Sep 2003 22:27 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: Fantastic - Adding that now >> > On Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 06:54:02PM +0100, Stephen Kitchener wrote: > > Sorry to intrude on this convbut I would use Exim if it was available > > as a package - upto now I have to compile if from source and install > > it > > No need to apologize. And you can use it: > > # urpmi.addmedia rpmhelp > ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/packages/rpmhelp/9.2/RPMS with ../base/hdlist.cz > # urpmi exim > > =) > > It isn't the latest version yet as I'm waiting for the author of the > exiscan patches to come back from vacation and update to the latest > version. -- O o _\_ o \\/ o\ . //\___= '' Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:52:17 +0100 21:52:17 up 13:34, 1 user, load average: 2.09, 2.14, 2.08 All things are either sacred or profane. The former to ecclesiasts bring gain; The latter to the devil appertain. -- Dumbo Omohundro
Re: exim; was Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 06:03:38PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:
> > Oh, I know qmail is... I definitely know qmail is. =) I get lots of
> > feedback on the qmail packages, but I've only heard from 2 people on the
> > exim packages. There's probably more than 2 people, but I can't honestly
> > know how many people are actually using them.
> >
>
> BTW, there was some resistance to people using Mandrake on the servers
> on campus since there were no exim packages (even though I pointed the
> rpmhelp ones out), since exim is the "understood" mail server here. One
> of the bigger linux servers on campus has however been running Mandrake
> for quite a while, after they found out Postfix is easy enough to configure.
>
> Our server has of course been running postfix for a long time.
Interesting. I know exim is popular and would be easy for those moving from
debian since exim is the default MTA there (even if it's still exim3).
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Re: exim; was Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Vincent Danen wrote: > On Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 03:33:51PM -0400, Brook Humphrey wrote: > > >>>Now you've hit the nail right on the head. =) >>> >>>Besides, how many people would want to use exim? I've *never* heard anyone >>>request using it before, and in fact I only know of one other person who >>>uses my packages. If something is going to go into contribs, I think >>>people should be interested in using it first. I'm not going to put it in >>>contribs if no one wants to use it. >> >>well to be fair they are fairly widely used or at least qmail is. As Ihave >>even contributed courier imap to rpmhelp before it made it to cooker contrib. >>I and I would imagine others have been helping and using the packages for >>some time. > > > Oh, I know qmail is... I definitely know qmail is. =) I get lots of > feedback on the qmail packages, but I've only heard from 2 people on the > exim packages. There's probably more than 2 people, but I can't honestly > know how many people are actually using them. > BTW, there was some resistance to people using Mandrake on the servers on campus since there were no exim packages (even though I pointed the rpmhelp ones out), since exim is the "understood" mail server here. One of the bigger linux servers on campus has however been running Mandrake for quite a while, after they found out Postfix is easy enough to configure. Our server has of course been running postfix for a long time. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/eFfarJK6UGDSBKcRAiw7AJ915WFaXoBHWZtt1QQuUDc5R21GtwCfUMBj WxYfUVXFZwRKTgC/wUYalQ4= =1qky -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: exim; was Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 03:33:51PM -0400, Brook Humphrey wrote:
> > Now you've hit the nail right on the head. =)
> >
> > Besides, how many people would want to use exim? I've *never* heard anyone
> > request using it before, and in fact I only know of one other person who
> > uses my packages. If something is going to go into contribs, I think
> > people should be interested in using it first. I'm not going to put it in
> > contribs if no one wants to use it.
>
> well to be fair they are fairly widely used or at least qmail is. As Ihave
> even contributed courier imap to rpmhelp before it made it to cooker contrib.
> I and I would imagine others have been helping and using the packages for
> some time.
Oh, I know qmail is... I definitely know qmail is. =) I get lots of
feedback on the qmail packages, but I've only heard from 2 people on the
exim packages. There's probably more than 2 people, but I can't honestly
know how many people are actually using them.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: exim; was Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Saturday 27 September 2003 11:02 am, Vincent Danen wrote: > Now you've hit the nail right on the head. =) > > Besides, how many people would want to use exim? I've *never* heard anyone > request using it before, and in fact I only know of one other person who > uses my packages. If something is going to go into contribs, I think > people should be interested in using it first. I'm not going to put it in > contribs if no one wants to use it. well to be fair they are fairly widely used or at least qmail is. As Ihave even contributed courier imap to rpmhelp before it made it to cooker contrib. I and I would imagine others have been helping and using the packages for some time. -- New and improved with advanced outlook crash handler. -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: exim; was Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 06:54:02PM +0100, Stephen Kitchener wrote:
> Sorry to intrude on this convbut I would use Exim if it was available as a
> package - upto now I have to compile if from source and install it
No need to apologize. And you can use it:
# urpmi.addmedia rpmhelp ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/packages/rpmhelp/9.2/RPMS
with ../base/hdlist.cz
# urpmi exim
=)
It isn't the latest version yet as I'm waiting for the author of the exiscan
patches to come back from vacation and update to the latest version.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
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Re: exim; was Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Saturday 27 Sep 2003 16:02 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: Hi Vincent. Sorry to intrude on this convbut I would use Exim if it was available as a package - upto now I have to compile if from source and install it > On Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 12:26:16PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote: > > > > can you put exim in contribs at least ? > > > > > > There's never been an interest before. I've been maintining exim > > > packages for about 1.5-2 years now, and I never even knew anyone was > > > interested. IIRC, I had asked about putting it in contribs when I > > > first built the package (since it wasn't wanted in main) and the > > > answer I got then was two MTAs were enough. Never bothered since. > > > > sorry, i was not here at this time. I should have search the archives > > before asking. > > It was a long time ago, and wasn't discussed on the list, but internally. > You likely wouldn't have found anything even if you had searched. > > > > If someone wants to put it in contribs, that's fine. I'll still > > > maintain it on rpmhelp.net because, right now, you can grab exim for > > > 9.0-9.2, and instead of maintaining for "cooker" I maintain for > > > stable releases. > > > > do you think it is some much troubles to maintain it in contribs ? I > > mean, this is just rebuilding it in a cooker environnement. And it > > doesn't prevent you to rebuild in 9.0-9.2 > > No, it isn't too much trouble. But, I'm lazy, I have my build systems > here, and I don't have to worry about ssh'ing to paris on a slow link. =) > That's my primary motivation to keep it here. > > > > > this will be easier to find it . Dispertion of rpm is not good, > > > > this force people to search too much and this gives them bad habits > > > > ( downloading semi official rpm ). > > > > Putting it in contribs will allow it to be tested by more people, > > > > and integrated to cooker. > > > > > > I disagree. PLF doesn't have a problem with people using their > > > packages. > > > > yes, but plf is bigger than rpmhelp. > > So? What does that have to do with anything? > > > if you take a look at easy urpmi, you will see that a lot of repositorie > > exist, some of them providing rpms already in contribs, and this is not > > easy to keep track of who do what. And i am pretty sure that plf would > > not exist if we were able to put the package in contribs. > > Sure, and by the same reasoning there is a place for rpmhelp.net. Due to > licensing problems, we can't put qmail in contribs, and that's what has > made rpmhelp.net useful and "known" to people. qmail has only been > provided via rpmhelp.net and, let me tell you, that has made it well-enough > known for those that require it. > > > > IIRC, if you were to search in Club's rpm database or > > > rpm2html listing or whatever it is, you'll find exim listed under > > > rpmhelp.net. > > > > yes, but, i think we should not encourage people to search rpm on a > > website. urpmq and rpmdrake are here for this reason. How can people > > choose between your great package, checked with rpmlint, and others > > packagers made by alien ? > > I never said we should encourage them to do so, and at the same token, they > can use urpmq and rpmdrake once they setup the rpmhelp.net sources. It's > not that difficult... there used to be a djbsupport package in contribs > that would setup the source for you.. I removed it because setting up a > source is *s* easy. > > > > Are you saying that everything on rpmhelp.net, PLF, Texstar's stuf, > > > etc. should go in contribs? > > > > yes, and no. Texstar is building backport. Plf is for stuff that cannot > > go in contribs. I think that a repository than can be put in contribs > > should be in contribs , in order to not have the apt-get.org dispertion > > effect. > > rpmhelp.net can't go in contribs. qmail can't go in, so all of the things > that depend on it (a large number of packages) also can't go in. The other > stuff there (like exim, etc.) are either backports of stuff I personally > find useful for my CS2.1 servers or things people ask me to put in. By > your own argument, rpmhelp.net cannot go in contribs, so why are we having > this discussion? =) > > > > I think separate rpm repositories that specialize in certain things > > > is good. > > > > It depends on what is the specialisation. But, even if exim is put in > > contribs, nothing stop you to provides backport for people who want it. > > In fact, more and more people are interested in providing backport , > > so, there is a place for a global repository offering sane backport. > > But, having it in contribs will give more visibility. And, this is the > > first step toward inclusion in main. > > Of course nothing stops me; it just takes more time. I'm also not > desperate to get exim in main. If it goes in, great, it's because it's a > great MTA. It's not because I've been lobbying to get it put in. Exim > doesn't *need* to be in main. I don't feel it needs to be there and, until > se
exim; was Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 12:26:16PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote: > > > can you put exim in contribs at least ? > > > > There's never been an interest before. I've been maintining exim > > packages for about 1.5-2 years now, and I never even knew anyone was > > interested. IIRC, I had asked about putting it in contribs when I > > first built the package (since it wasn't wanted in main) and the > > answer I got then was two MTAs were enough. Never bothered since. > > sorry, i was not here at this time. I should have search the archives > before asking. It was a long time ago, and wasn't discussed on the list, but internally. You likely wouldn't have found anything even if you had searched. > > If someone wants to put it in contribs, that's fine. I'll still > > maintain it on rpmhelp.net because, right now, you can grab exim for > > 9.0-9.2, and instead of maintaining for "cooker" I maintain for > > stable releases. > > do you think it is some much troubles to maintain it in contribs ? I > mean, this is just rebuilding it in a cooker environnement. And it > doesn't prevent you to rebuild in 9.0-9.2 No, it isn't too much trouble. But, I'm lazy, I have my build systems here, and I don't have to worry about ssh'ing to paris on a slow link. =) That's my primary motivation to keep it here. > > > this will be easier to find it . Dispertion of rpm is not good, > > > this force people to search too much and this gives them bad habits > > > ( downloading semi official rpm ). > > > Putting it in contribs will allow it to be tested by more people, > > > and integrated to cooker. > > > > I disagree. PLF doesn't have a problem with people using their > > packages. > > yes, but plf is bigger than rpmhelp. So? What does that have to do with anything? > if you take a look at easy urpmi, you will see that a lot of repositorie > exist, some of them providing rpms already in contribs, and this is not > easy to keep track of who do what. And i am pretty sure that plf would > not exist if we were able to put the package in contribs. Sure, and by the same reasoning there is a place for rpmhelp.net. Due to licensing problems, we can't put qmail in contribs, and that's what has made rpmhelp.net useful and "known" to people. qmail has only been provided via rpmhelp.net and, let me tell you, that has made it well-enough known for those that require it. > > IIRC, if you were to search in Club's rpm database or > > rpm2html listing or whatever it is, you'll find exim listed under > > rpmhelp.net. > > yes, but, i think we should not encourage people to search rpm on a > website. urpmq and rpmdrake are here for this reason. How can people > choose between your great package, checked with rpmlint, and others > packagers made by alien ? I never said we should encourage them to do so, and at the same token, they can use urpmq and rpmdrake once they setup the rpmhelp.net sources. It's not that difficult... there used to be a djbsupport package in contribs that would setup the source for you.. I removed it because setting up a source is *s* easy. > > Are you saying that everything on rpmhelp.net, PLF, Texstar's stuf, > > etc. should go in contribs? > > yes, and no. Texstar is building backport. Plf is for stuff that cannot > go in contribs. I think that a repository than can be put in contribs > should be in contribs , in order to not have the apt-get.org dispertion > effect. rpmhelp.net can't go in contribs. qmail can't go in, so all of the things that depend on it (a large number of packages) also can't go in. The other stuff there (like exim, etc.) are either backports of stuff I personally find useful for my CS2.1 servers or things people ask me to put in. By your own argument, rpmhelp.net cannot go in contribs, so why are we having this discussion? =) > > I think separate rpm repositories that specialize in certain things > > is good. > > It depends on what is the specialisation. But, even if exim is put in > contribs, nothing stop you to provides backport for people who want it. > In fact, more and more people are interested in providing backport , > so, there is a place for a global repository offering sane backport. > But, having it in contribs will give more visibility. And, this is the > first step toward inclusion in main. Of course nothing stops me; it just takes more time. I'm also not desperate to get exim in main. If it goes in, great, it's because it's a great MTA. It's not because I've been lobbying to get it put in. Exim doesn't *need* to be in main. I don't feel it needs to be there and, until sendmail is put in contribs, it won't be there. You try and get sendmail in contribs first... when that happens, I'll put exim in contribs as well and then those interested can work towards getting it put into main as an alternative. > > > And, we will also be able to integrate some tools ( spamassassin, > > > amavis ) more closely with exim. > > > > There really is not
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Friday 26 September 2003 22:10, Vincent Danen wrote: > On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:23:24PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote: > > can you put exim in contribs at least ? > > There's never been an interest before. I've been maintining exim > packages for about 1.5-2 years now, and I never even knew anyone was > interested. IIRC, I had asked about putting it in contribs when I > first built the package (since it wasn't wanted in main) and the > answer I got then was two MTAs were enough. Never bothered since. sorry, i was not here at this time. I should have search the archives before asking. > If someone wants to put it in contribs, that's fine. I'll still > maintain it on rpmhelp.net because, right now, you can grab exim for > 9.0-9.2, and instead of maintaining for "cooker" I maintain for > stable releases. do you think it is some much troubles to maintain it in contribs ? I mean, this is just rebuilding it in a cooker environnement. And it doesn't prevent you to rebuild in 9.0-9.2 > > this will be easier to find it . Dispertion of rpm is not good, > > this force people to search too much and this gives them bad habits > > ( downloading semi official rpm ). > > Putting it in contribs will allow it to be tested by more people, > > and integrated to cooker. > > I disagree. PLF doesn't have a problem with people using their > packages. yes, but plf is bigger than rpmhelp. if you take a look at easy urpmi, you will see that a lot of repositorie exist, some of them providing rpms already in contribs, and this is not easy to keep track of who do what. And i am pretty sure that plf would not exist if we were able to put the package in contribs. > IIRC, if you were to search in Club's rpm database or > rpm2html listing or whatever it is, you'll find exim listed under > rpmhelp.net. yes, but, i think we should not encourage people to search rpm on a website. urpmq and rpmdrake are here for this reason. How can people choose between your great package, checked with rpmlint, and others packagers made by alien ? > Are you saying that everything on rpmhelp.net, PLF, Texstar's stuf, > etc. should go in contribs? yes, and no. Texstar is building backport. Plf is for stuff that cannot go in contribs. I think that a repository than can be put in contribs should be in contribs , in order to not have the apt-get.org dispertion effect. > I think separate rpm repositories that specialize in certain things > is good. It depends on what is the specialisation. But, even if exim is put in contribs, nothing stop you to provides backport for people who want it. In fact, more and more people are interested in providing backport , so, there is a place for a global repository offering sane backport. But, having it in contribs will give more visibility. And, this is the first step toward inclusion in main. > > And, we will also be able to integrate some tools ( spamassassin, > > amavis ) more closely with exim. > > There really is nothing stopping you from doing that now. It doesn't > need to be in contribs for that. if someone do a spamassassin-exim package, this person cannot put it in contribs, since it has a unresolved dependancy ( exim ). A package in contribs can only depend on main and contrib. now, i fully undestand that you may have too much work to maintains exim in 2 places. -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:08:22PM +0200, Han Boetes wrote:
> > Well, that would mean someone has to maintain such a list for
> > contribs. For main, this is easy. Use urpmq to tell you what needs
> > updating in main. For contribs, it's a little more difficult because
> > someone has to maintain this list.
> >
> > I'll be honest, when a new vuln comes out, I grep through a listing of
> > files in main; I don't make file listings for contribs packages, so if
> > grep shows me nothing matches, I move on.
>
> This consists of two things. First it has to be scripted.
>
> /etc/cron.weekly/rpm seems to be a nice script for this. I bet I can
> come up with something. And second someone has to maintain the list. I
> think I could do that as well. I suppose there are other
> contribmaintainers that will keep an eye on stuff as well. So I suppose
> I need a way to send a plaintext-list to a public mandrake url.
>
> Sounds like a deal? :)
You figure it out and I will gladly make a place for it on MandrakeSecure.
=)
--
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Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:23:24PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote:
> > > > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the
> > > > example is a touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2
> > > > (last version it shipped in main).
> > > >
> > > > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =)
> > > >
> > > > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about
> > > > sendmail)
> > >
> > > I'm with you vincent sendmail is well it's. I wont say it would not
> > > be nice but I would not mind seeing it go. Postfix is more than
> > > good enough to take it's place for those that choose it as are many
> > > other options out there.
> >
> > Well, let's put it this way. For about 2 years now I've wanted
> > sendmail in contribs and if we really needed another MTA alternative
> > to postfix, I have very nice exim packages on rpmhelp.net and exim is
> > a really nice MTA.
> >
> > Not that this is a plug to put exim in main (doesn't matter to me...
> > it's available via rpmhelp.net), but a definite looking forward to
> > not having sendmail in main anymore.
>
> can you put exim in contribs at least ?
There's never been an interest before. I've been maintining exim packages
for about 1.5-2 years now, and I never even knew anyone was interested.
IIRC, I had asked about putting it in contribs when I first built the
package (since it wasn't wanted in main) and the answer I got then was two
MTAs were enough. Never bothered since.
If someone wants to put it in contribs, that's fine. I'll still maintain it
on rpmhelp.net because, right now, you can grab exim for 9.0-9.2, and
instead of maintaining for "cooker" I maintain for stable releases.
> this will be easier to find it . Dispertion of rpm is not good, this
> force people to search too much and this gives them bad habits (
> downloading semi official rpm ).
> Putting it in contribs will allow it to be tested by more people, and
> integrated to cooker.
I disagree. PLF doesn't have a problem with people using their packages.
IIRC, if you were to search in Club's rpm database or rpm2html listing or
whatever it is, you'll find exim listed under rpmhelp.net.
Are you saying that everything on rpmhelp.net, PLF, Texstar's stuf, etc.
should go in contribs?
I think separate rpm repositories that specialize in certain things is good.
> And, we will also be able to integrate some tools ( spamassassin, amavis
> ) more closely with exim.
There really is nothing stopping you from doing that now. It doesn't need
to be in contribs for that.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Friday 26 September 2003 18:11, Vincent Danen wrote: > > Very true. But every openssh vuln hasn't been a crash or DoS. Mind > you, with openssh a DoS is bad enough. Need to remote admin servers? > What happens if the server goes down and you're stuck driving a long > time to get to the machine? (It's happened). > > A DoS in apache is one thing... ssh in and restart. A DoS in ssh is > another... how do you ssh in to fix it if ssh doesn't work? isn't there sshd-monitor for restarting ssh ? -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 11:12:26AM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: BTW, a lot of the issues could be resolved if there were a standard mechanism for contrib updates. Vince, I think this was about the time you said we could start discussing it? yes, this is a good idea. many contributors already do package for previous releases, so it might not be that hard to manage. l. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media & Services S.r.l. /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Friday 26 September 2003 12:25 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: > [... rest of the cool stuff snipped ...] > > Wow. I know what I'm doing today. =) > > Thanks, Brook. Looks like I've been missing out. With that feature-set, I > am not at all adverse to making pure-ftpd the default and proftpd as > optional, with wu-ftpd gone entirely. > > Thanks! no problem that is only about a 10th of the feature set. It's a very featurefull ftp deamon. and the main focus has been security from the beginning. -- New and improved with advanced outlook crash handler. -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Friday 26 September 2003 18:28, Vincent Danen wrote: > On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:29:28AM -0400, Brook Humphrey wrote: > > > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the > > > example is a touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2 > > > (last version it shipped in main). > > > > > > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =) > > > > > > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about > > > sendmail) > > > > I'm with you vincent sendmail is well it's. I wont say it would not > > be nice but I would not mind seeing it go. Postfix is more than > > good enough to take it's place for those that choose it as are many > > other options out there. > > Well, let's put it this way. For about 2 years now I've wanted > sendmail in contribs and if we really needed another MTA alternative > to postfix, I have very nice exim packages on rpmhelp.net and exim is > a really nice MTA. > > Not that this is a plug to put exim in main (doesn't matter to me... > it's available via rpmhelp.net), but a definite looking forward to > not having sendmail in main anymore. can you put exim in contribs at least ? this will be easier to find it . Dispertion of rpm is not good, this force people to search too much and this gives them bad habits ( downloading semi official rpm ). Putting it in contribs will allow it to be tested by more people, and integrated to cooker. And, we will also be able to integrate some tools ( spamassassin, amavis ) more closely with exim. -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Vincent Danen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 06:51:59PM +0159, Han Boetes wrote: > > I agree that mandrake is not responsible for providing updated packages > > for contribs even when there is a security problem. But I think there > > is a nice solution: > > > > msec makes a daily list of all installed rpms. of course it could > > also fetch a list of rpms which have security problems from some > > place. It could compare those lists and then send a an email to root > > that there is a problem with a package and that it should be updated > > or removed. > > Well, that would mean someone has to maintain such a list for > contribs. For main, this is easy. Use urpmq to tell you what needs > updating in main. For contribs, it's a little more difficult because > someone has to maintain this list. > > I'll be honest, when a new vuln comes out, I grep through a listing of > files in main; I don't make file listings for contribs packages, so if > grep shows me nothing matches, I move on. This consists of two things. First it has to be scripted. /etc/cron.weekly/rpm seems to be a nice script for this. I bet I can come up with something. And second someone has to maintain the list. I think I could do that as well. I suppose there are other contribmaintainers that will keep an eye on stuff as well. So I suppose I need a way to send a plaintext-list to a public mandrake url. Sounds like a deal? :) # Han -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/software http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:46:56PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote:
> > Very true. But every openssh vuln hasn't been a crash or DoS. Mind
> > you, with openssh a DoS is bad enough. Need to remote admin servers?
> > What happens if the server goes down and you're stuck driving a long
> > time to get to the machine? (It's happened).
> >
> > A DoS in apache is one thing... ssh in and restart. A DoS in ssh is
> > another... how do you ssh in to fix it if ssh doesn't work?
>
> isn't there sshd-monitor for restarting ssh ?
In contribs.
But that isn't the point. I can make a whole bunch of monitors to handle
the other services as well. What if this vuln didn't crash sshd but hung
it? doesn't sshd-monitor just restart ssh if it dies? what if this problem
hung/froze sshd but didn't kill it? just make it consume cpu, etc.
Anyways, that isn't really the point. I was demonstrating that something
that looks like a "simple DoS" might have more adverse affects than one
might think about by reading that it was just a "simple DoS".
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 04:17:48AM -0400, Brook Humphrey wrote:
> > I don't mind pure-ftpd being default, although it we want secure I still
> > maintain that vsftpd is what we want. Can't beat it for security. Of
> > course, it's a little spartan on the feature side as well.
>
> I'll admit here that I'm not very familiar with vsftpd but I can say pure-ftpd
> is not spartan at all and is constantly being maintained.
Well, I will have to look at it. I've never looked at it before, I've only
used vsftpd and proftpd (and wu way back when). Non-spartan is nice... the
thing I like about proftpd is how customizable is (and I like the
apache-like config syntax)
--
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Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 06:51:59PM +0159, Han Boetes wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Main gets updated. contribs doesn't.
> >
> > I don't see what is so difficult about this. This is how it has
> > *always* been. It hasn't changed. No need for a policy regarding it.
> > This is just how it's done.
>
> I agree that mandrake is not responsible for providing updated packages
> for contribs even when there is a security problem. But I think there
> is a nice solution:
>
> msec makes a daily list of all installed rpms. of course it could also
> fetch a list of rpms which have security problems from some place. It
> could compare those lists and then send a an email to root that there
> is a problem with a package and that it should be updated or removed.
Well, that would mean someone has to maintain such a list for contribs. For
main, this is easy. Use urpmq to tell you what needs updating in main. For
contribs, it's a little more difficult because someone has to maintain this
list.
I'll be honest, when a new vuln comes out, I grep through a listing of files
in main; I don't make file listings for contribs packages, so if grep shows
me nothing matches, I move on.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 04:21:49AM -0400, Brook Humphrey wrote:
> > Personally, if pure-ftpd can't authenticate against LDAP (like proftpd
> > can), I'm not overly interested. =) proftpd may have some issues
> > periodically, but you can't beat it for configurability.
>
> Here is only a small portion of the features. I did not do the whole thing as
> it is much longer than this list.
>
> - FTP accounts can be distinct from system accounts, stored in an independant
> database. Multiple accounts can share the same system id. A built-in indexing
> database allows very fast lookups. It is sucessfully running with over 1.5
> million accounts on the same server. System accounts can be copied to virtual
> FTP accounts, so that users can have different passwords for shell access and
> FTP access.
>
> - LDAP authentication is also fully supported. Plaintext, Crypt, MD5, SMD5,
> SHA and SSHA crypto hash functions are implemented. Pure-FTPd was
> successfully tested with OpenLDAP and iPlanet Directory Server. It uses
> standard posixAccounts classes.
[... rest of the cool stuff snipped ...]
Wow. I know what I'm doing today. =)
Thanks, Brook. Looks like I've been missing out. With that feature-set, I
am not at all adverse to making pure-ftpd the default and proftpd as
optional, with wu-ftpd gone entirely.
Thanks!
--
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Vincent Danen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [snip] > Main gets updated. contribs doesn't. > > I don't see what is so difficult about this. This is how it has > *always* been. It hasn't changed. No need for a policy regarding it. > This is just how it's done. I agree that mandrake is not responsible for providing updated packages for contribs even when there is a security problem. But I think there is a nice solution: msec makes a daily list of all installed rpms. of course it could also fetch a list of rpms which have security problems from some place. It could compare those lists and then send a an email to root that there is a problem with a package and that it should be updated or removed. # Han -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/software http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 10:31:58AM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > > On Thu Sep 25, 2003 at 07:59:30PM -0400, Levi Ramsey wrote:
> > > > I think the policy should be that anything which listens on a port
> > > > should not, under any circumstances, be in contribs, as contribs are
> > > > not generally updated; I'm sure that someone will come along with a
> > > > sendmail repository and do the updates themselves.
> > >
> > > I disagree. A lot of nice network-type software would be missing and I
> > > sure as heck don't want them all in main. What's wrong with having
> > > them in contribs? They aren't officially maintained... so what? Having
> > > them in contribs, joe sysadmin can grab the src.rpm for what he has
> > > installed, grab the new version or patch, and roll his own. It's still
> > > convenient for him to have it in contribs even if he doesn't get it
> > > via MandrakeUpdate.
> >
> > I does make sense if we have a note attached on them they can pose a
> > security risk and if people use them they should take care they are up
> > to date. Some sort of mechanism that keeps people informed about
> > updates. For example xmule which was found to be exploitable
> > recently. I expect more troubles from that program. A simple warning
> > after installing wont even do... Can somebody come up with a decent
> > solution to this problem?
Hmmm... didn't see this one. I've got a solution. Subscribe to
full-disclosure. You'll see what other vendors are putting out and you'll
be able to see what needs fixing.
> Actually, there is no point just explaining servers in contrib are not
> updated. A real explanation of mandrake policy would be far better:
> - what is main, what is contrib, and what is update ?
> - what does get updated ?
> etc...
Good grief.. everyone wants policy policy policy... =)
Main is what is in the main tree. You know, what comes in the download
edition. The stuff that is labelled "not contribs". The meat of the
distro. The equivilant of Mandrake-devel/cooker/i586/Mandrake/RPMS
Contribs is contribs. It's labelled as such.
updates? Should be pretty obvious. Updates are stuff in main that need
fixing for whatever reason.
Main gets updated. contribs doesn't.
I don't see what is so difficult about this. This is how it has *always*
been. It hasn't changed. No need for a policy regarding it. This is just
how it's done.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:29:28AM -0400, Brook Humphrey wrote:
> > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the example is a
> > touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2 (last version it shipped
> > in main).
> >
> > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =)
> >
> > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about sendmail)
>
> I'm with you vincent sendmail is well it's. I wont say it would not be nice
> but I would not mind seeing it go. Postfix is more than good enough to take
> it's place for those that choose it as are many other options out there.
Well, let's put it this way. For about 2 years now I've wanted sendmail in
contribs and if we really needed another MTA alternative to postfix, I have
very nice exim packages on rpmhelp.net and exim is a really nice MTA.
Not that this is a plug to put exim in main (doesn't matter to me... it's
available via rpmhelp.net), but a definite looking forward to not having
sendmail in main anymore.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 11:12:26AM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:
> > Once more. The size of the hole is more important than how often people
> > require you to patch.
>
> Well, then by it's history over the past year, sendmail should be the
> first kicked out the distro (3 potential remote root vulnerabilities
> plus another 2 DOS vulnerabilities). And I don't think there is much
> reason feature-wise to choose sendmail over postfix.
>
> I think second on the list would be samba, but I don't suppose anyone is
> going to propose a replacement ... (no, samba-tng doesn't count ...).
>
> BTW, a lot of the issues could be resolved if there were a standard
> mechanism for contrib updates. Vince, I think this was about the time
> you said we could start discussing it?
Ugh. Ok, yes, it needs to be dealt with. I'm just not sure of the best way
to handle it. Does klama have chroots for older versions? I'd think for
contribs, you only really need to worry about the last one, maybe two,
versions. Ie. right now, contribs updates should be limited to 9.2,
possibly 9.1.
I do not want contribs in the official updates tree. No discussion on that.
It will give the false illusion that contribs is supported, and updates to
contribs will be entirely user-driven.
So we can either make a new tree for the mirrors for contribs (I wouldn't be
adverse to a updates/contribs/[arch]/[ver], but that would preclude me
getting involved to some degree.
In my mind, the best solution is to put updates in Club. That way they make
it to the Club mirrors and everyone can take advantage of them since
non-Club members can also access them. That would be my best solution and
my preference. Then I don't have to get involved at all.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:14:36AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote:
> > Of course, I still don't get why we're jumping all over proftpd. It
> > isn't really *that* insecure. As I pointed out to Han regarding wu-
> > ftpd, proftpd is in a similar boat. There is this hole, which should
> > be available in updates RSN, but the last one was in Jan 2002... over
> > a year and a half ago. Again, comparing to sendmail, this sucker is
> > pretty secure. Heck, compare it to openssh! How many updates for
> > openssh have there been in the same timespan?
> >
> > We can't just throw stuff out the window because it has a hole today
> > and has had one over a year or two years ago. That's just silly. Why
> > aren't we jumping up and down about ditching php? Or apache? Or cups?
> > Or XFree86? Or bind? Or openldap? The list goes on. All of those have
> > been updated within the last 1-2 years as well, some many many times.
>
> It's also about the magnitude of the hole. How big are the chances they
> will be found again. The recent ssh-hole was technically speaking a
> remote crash, not nice but nothing dramatic. You still have to patch it
> but that's something I can live with.
> On the other hand a remote root is a remote root and that is something
> I really would like to avoid.
>
> Once more. The size of the hole is more important than how often people
> require you to patch.
Very true. But every openssh vuln hasn't been a crash or DoS. Mind you,
with openssh a DoS is bad enough. Need to remote admin servers? What
happens if the server goes down and you're stuck driving a long time to get
to the machine? (It's happened).
A DoS in apache is one thing... ssh in and restart. A DoS in ssh is
another... how do you ssh in to fix it if ssh doesn't work?
So don't think of it in technical terms... put it in real-world situations
and then re-evaluate how "bad" the problem is.
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thursday 25 September 2003 09:12 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: > > Personally, if pure-ftpd can't authenticate against LDAP (like proftpd > can), I'm not overly interested. =) proftpd may have some issues > periodically, but you can't beat it for configurability. Here is only a small portion of the features. I did not do the whole thing as it is much longer than this list. - FTP accounts can be distinct from system accounts, stored in an independant database. Multiple accounts can share the same system id. A built-in indexing database allows very fast lookups. It is sucessfully running with over 1.5 million accounts on the same server. System accounts can be copied to virtual FTP accounts, so that users can have different passwords for shell access and FTP access. - LDAP authentication is also fully supported. Plaintext, Crypt, MD5, SMD5, SHA and SSHA crypto hash functions are implemented. Pure-FTPd was successfully tested with OpenLDAP and iPlanet Directory Server. It uses standard posixAccounts classes. - Built-in secure cryptographic hashes (SMD5, SSHA) can be used with any LDAP server, even those that are lacking support for these hashes. - User info can also be centralized in MySQL databases, with or without transactions. All queries are fully customizable, and requests can be built with user names, remote client addresses, local IP addresses and ports. That way, complex hosting rules can be easily implemented, even with multiple virtual servers on the same host, and multiple virtual domains with many users. - Multiple authentication methods can be chained in any order. For instance, SQL accounts, LDAP directories and system accounts can be used at the same time. - Custom authentication methods can easily be added. Pure-FTPd supports external authentication modules, and writing a new backend can be as simple as a few lines of shell script. - Pure-FTPd supports a virtual quota system : accounts can have individual quota (max number of files, max total size) even when they share the same system uid. - Bandwidth throttling is supported, with distinct settings for upload and download. - Every user can be assigned individual quota, ratio and bandwidth. - Every user can be allowed to connect only from a specific range on IP address, or only to its own virtual host. - Every user can be individually restricted to his home directory or not. - Every user can be allowed to connect only during configured time-ranges (e.g. only during business hours). -- New and improved with advanced outlook crash handler. -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thursday 25 September 2003 09:12 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: > I don't mind pure-ftpd being default, although it we want secure I still > maintain that vsftpd is what we want. Can't beat it for security. Of > course, it's a little spartan on the feature side as well. I'll admit here that I'm not very familiar with vsftpd but I can say pure-ftpd is not spartan at all and is constantly being maintained. -- New and improved with advanced outlook crash handler. -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thursday 25 September 2003 06:31 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: > > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the example is a > touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2 (last version it shipped > in main). > > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =) > > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about sendmail) I'm with you vincent sendmail is well it's. I wont say it would not be nice but I would not mind seeing it go. Postfix is more than good enough to take it's place for those that choose it as are many other options out there. -- New and improved with advanced outlook crash handler. -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Han Boetes wrote: > Vincent Danen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>We can't just throw stuff out the window because it has a hole today >>and has had one over a year or two years ago. That's just silly. Why >>aren't we jumping up and down about ditching php? Or apache? Or cups? >>Or XFree86? Or bind? Or openldap? The list goes on. All of those have >>been updated within the last 1-2 years as well, some many many times. > > It's also about the magnitude of the hole. How big are the chances they > will be found again. The recent ssh-hole was technically speaking a > remote crash, not nice but nothing dramatic. You still have to patch it > but that's something I can live with. > On the other hand a remote root is a remote root and that is something > I really would like to avoid. > > Once more. The size of the hole is more important than how often people > require you to patch. Well, then by it's history over the past year, sendmail should be the first kicked out the distro (3 potential remote root vulnerabilities plus another 2 DOS vulnerabilities). And I don't think there is much reason feature-wise to choose sendmail over postfix. I think second on the list would be samba, but I don't suppose anyone is going to propose a replacement ... (no, samba-tng doesn't count ...). BTW, a lot of the issues could be resolved if there were a standard mechanism for contrib updates. Vince, I think this was about the time you said we could start discussing it? Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/dAL5rJK6UGDSBKcRAjfQAKDM4/DagwFWp7DJ4zK1VDH+HXMSAQCgtR5c DhJC4fxzRNW8O6tGy2qzEsA= =BsZS -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Ainsi parlait Han Boetes : > Vincent Danen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu Sep 25, 2003 at 07:59:30PM -0400, Levi Ramsey wrote: > > > I think the policy should be that anything which listens on a port > > > should not, under any circumstances, be in contribs, as contribs are > > > not generally updated; I'm sure that someone will come along with a > > > sendmail repository and do the updates themselves. > > > > I disagree. A lot of nice network-type software would be missing and I > > sure as heck don't want them all in main. What's wrong with having > > them in contribs? They aren't officially maintained... so what? Having > > them in contribs, joe sysadmin can grab the src.rpm for what he has > > installed, grab the new version or patch, and roll his own. It's still > > convenient for him to have it in contribs even if he doesn't get it > > via MandrakeUpdate. > > I does make sense if we have a note attached on them they can pose a > security risk and if people use them they should take care they are up > to date. Some sort of mechanism that keeps people informed about > updates. For example xmule which was found to be exploitable > recently. I expect more troubles from that program. A simple warning > after installing wont even do... Can somebody come up with a decent > solution to this problem? Actually, there is no point just explaining servers in contrib are not updated. A real explanation of mandrake policy would be far better: - what is main, what is contrib, and what is update ? - what does get updated ? etc... -- Never tell the Platoon Sergeant you have nothing to do -- Murphy's Military Laws n°63
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 09:21:37AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: oh, and before you ask, it is wrapped with capsel, so i don't believe you can remote root it, even if it were unpatched. Is the default wu wrapped like that? Or can you adjust the default wu so that it is wrapped like that? well, no, capsel is not even in Mandrake, i rebuilt the module from source. probably better effect can be obtained by using grsecurity, but i never had the time to learn that. regards, L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media & Services S.r.l. /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Luca Berra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Han Boetes wrote: > >hmmm, I don't know how many people still insist on using wu. > > well, i still do, since i have a system that relies on some > configuration options in wu-ftpd that i don't know how to reproduce > with other daemons :( > oh, and before you ask, it is wrapped with capsel, so i don't believe > you can remote root it, even if it were unpatched. Is the default wu wrapped like that? Or can you adjust the default wu so that it is wrapped like that? # Han -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/software http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 08:06:30AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: The same could be said of wu-ftpd, tho. There was the one issue in July, and previous to that was Nov 2001. So from 11/01->07/03 it was pretty quiet. I guarantee you in that timeframe sendmail has had more security issues. hmmm, I don't know how many people still insist on using wu. well, i still do, since i have a system that relies on some configuration options in wu-ftpd that i don't know how to reproduce with other daemons :( oh, and before you ask, it is wrapped with capsel, so i don't believe you can remote root it, even if it were unpatched. anyway for the distro i'd use vsftpd as the main ftp server, and pure/pro as an option. i don't like proftpd, but it is just me. A pity vsftpd does not do ftp-ssl. regards, L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media & Services S.r.l. /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > They don't have sendmail in the files list. It's postfix there. I am sorry, you are mistaken. Theo swears to sendmail. # Han -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/software http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Vincent Danen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu Sep 25, 2003 at 07:59:30PM -0400, Levi Ramsey wrote: > > I think the policy should be that anything which listens on a port > > should not, under any circumstances, be in contribs, as contribs are > > not generally updated; I'm sure that someone will come along with a > > sendmail repository and do the updates themselves. > > I disagree. A lot of nice network-type software would be missing and I > sure as heck don't want them all in main. What's wrong with having > them in contribs? They aren't officially maintained... so what? Having > them in contribs, joe sysadmin can grab the src.rpm for what he has > installed, grab the new version or patch, and roll his own. It's still > convenient for him to have it in contribs even if he doesn't get it > via MandrakeUpdate. I does make sense if we have a note attached on them they can pose a security risk and if people use them they should take care they are up to date. Some sort of mechanism that keeps people informed about updates. For example xmule which was found to be exploitable recently. I expect more troubles from that program. A simple warning after installing wont even do... Can somebody come up with a decent solution to this problem? # Han -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/software http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Vincent Danen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Of course, I still don't get why we're jumping all over proftpd. It > isn't really *that* insecure. As I pointed out to Han regarding wu- > ftpd, proftpd is in a similar boat. There is this hole, which should > be available in updates RSN, but the last one was in Jan 2002... over > a year and a half ago. Again, comparing to sendmail, this sucker is > pretty secure. Heck, compare it to openssh! How many updates for > openssh have there been in the same timespan? > > We can't just throw stuff out the window because it has a hole today > and has had one over a year or two years ago. That's just silly. Why > aren't we jumping up and down about ditching php? Or apache? Or cups? > Or XFree86? Or bind? Or openldap? The list goes on. All of those have > been updated within the last 1-2 years as well, some many many times. It's also about the magnitude of the hole. How big are the chances they will be found again. The recent ssh-hole was technically speaking a remote crash, not nice but nothing dramatic. You still have to patch it but that's something I can live with. On the other hand a remote root is a remote root and that is something I really would like to avoid. Once more. The size of the hole is more important than how often people require you to patch. # Han -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/software http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu Sep 25, 2003 at 10:33:35PM -0700, James Sparenberg wrote:
> > > > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the example
> > > > is a touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2 (last version
> > > > it shipped in main).
> > > >
> > > > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =)
> > > >
> > > > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about
> > > > sendmail)
> > >
> > > To give a serious answer (like I got any authority in this :)
> > > No we can't ditch sendmail. Too many people rely and like sendmail. And
> > > it's not that evil. I mean there are some periods in which no exploits
> > > are found in sendmail.
> >
> > The same could be said of wu-ftpd, tho. There was the one issue in July,
> > and previous to that was Nov 2001. So from 11/01->07/03 it was pretty
> > quiet. I guarantee you in that timeframe sendmail has had more security
> > issues.
> >
> > > But what we can do is keeping a close eye or even import the sendmail in
> > > OpenBSD-cvs which is audited. Same thing goes for BIND. I don't know how
> > > practical this is but it sounds like something to contemplate.
> >
> > Is openbsd using bind9 yet? Or are they still on bind4? If they are using
> > bind9, I have my doubts that it's been audited... that's a lot of code to
> > audit so quickly, especially considering how long they left bind4 in there.
>
> One of the reasons the update took so long is that they are auditing the
> code *grin* I checked 3.2 OpenBSD and it does run 9.21 I'm told that
> the do do a legit "cheat" when auditing. They first "recheck" the code
> that didn't change and then repair. Then audit what is left. However I
> don't know enough about the process there to comment beyond this.
Hmmm.. that sounds interesting. I wonder if the bind folks know about
this... I'm sure it would be nice to have whatever fixes are commited to
openbsd-cvs put back into bind itself.
> > On the sendmail side, I'm not sure. Is it up to date? We won't win any
> > friends by regressing to an older-but-openbsd-audited version.
>
> They don't have sendmail in the files list. It's postfix there.
Well at least they're doing that right... =)
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
Vincent Danen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 01:15:07AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: > > > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the > > > example is a touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2 > > > (last version it shipped in main). > > > > > > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =) > > > > > > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about > > > sendmail) > > > > To give a serious answer (like I got any authority in this :) No we > > can't ditch sendmail. Too many people rely and like sendmail. And > > it's not that evil. I mean there are some periods in which no > > exploits are found in sendmail. > > The same could be said of wu-ftpd, tho. There was the one issue in > July, and previous to that was Nov 2001. So from 11/01->07/03 it was > pretty quiet. I guarantee you in that timeframe sendmail has had more > security issues. hmmm, I don't know how many people still insist on using wu. > > But what we can do is keeping a close eye or even import the > > sendmail in OpenBSD-cvs which is audited. Same thing goes for BIND. > > I don't know how practical this is but it sounds like something to > > contemplate. > > Is openbsd using bind9 yet? Or are they still on bind4? If they are > using bind9, I have my doubts that it's been audited... that's a lot > of code to audit so quickly, especially considering how long they left > bind4 in there. BIND 9.2.2 I aught to ask around. > On the sendmail side, I'm not sure. Is it up to date? We won't win any > friends by regressing to an older-but-openbsd-audited version. Sendmail: version.m4,v 8.92.2.15 2003/03/19 21:19:52 ca Exp Not that that is really important. But they also had to fix the recent thing in sendmail. Though the default sendmail only listens on localhosts so that's not a remote. # Han -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/software http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu, 2003-09-25 at 18:07, Vincent Danen wrote: > On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 01:15:07AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: > > > > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the example > > > is a touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2 (last version > > > it shipped in main). > > > > > > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =) > > > > > > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about > > > sendmail) > > > > To give a serious answer (like I got any authority in this :) > > No we can't ditch sendmail. Too many people rely and like sendmail. And > > it's not that evil. I mean there are some periods in which no exploits > > are found in sendmail. > > The same could be said of wu-ftpd, tho. There was the one issue in July, > and previous to that was Nov 2001. So from 11/01->07/03 it was pretty > quiet. I guarantee you in that timeframe sendmail has had more security > issues. > > > But what we can do is keeping a close eye or even import the sendmail in > > OpenBSD-cvs which is audited. Same thing goes for BIND. I don't know how > > practical this is but it sounds like something to contemplate. > > Is openbsd using bind9 yet? Or are they still on bind4? If they are using > bind9, I have my doubts that it's been audited... that's a lot of code to > audit so quickly, especially considering how long they left bind4 in there. > One of the reasons the update took so long is that they are auditing the code *grin* I checked 3.2 OpenBSD and it does run 9.21 I'm told that the do do a legit "cheat" when auditing. They first "recheck" the code that didn't change and then repair. Then audit what is left. However I don't know enough about the process there to comment beyond this. > On the sendmail side, I'm not sure. Is it up to date? We won't win any > friends by regressing to an older-but-openbsd-audited version. They don't have sendmail in the files list. It's postfix there. James
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu Sep 25, 2003 at 07:59:30PM -0400, Levi Ramsey wrote:
> > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =)
> >
> > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about sendmail)
>
> I think the policy should be that anything which listens on a port
> should not, under any circumstances, be in contribs, as contribs are not
> generally updated; I'm sure that someone will come along with a sendmail
> repository and do the updates themselves.
I disagree. A lot of nice network-type software would be missing and I sure
as heck don't want them all in main. What's wrong with having them in
contribs? They aren't officially maintained... so what? Having them in
contribs, joe sysadmin can grab the src.rpm for what he has installed, grab
the new version or patch, and roll his own. It's still convenient for him
to have it in contribs even if he doesn't get it via MandrakeUpdate.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Thu Sep 25, 2003 at 07:57:30PM -0400, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
> > > > > Can't we dump wu-ftpd? I mean there are lots of more secure
> > > > > alternatives and this daemon still has regular exploits.
> > > >
> > > > wu-ftpd is only in contribs
> > >
> > > Ok, that's in the good direction. Lets take it a step further. :)
> > >
> > > I mean someone gets a 9.1 cd, installs wu-ftpd and forgets to run updates. You
> > > can predict that by the time 9.2 is released a working exploit has been found.
> > >
> > > You can nearly be sure that any contrib cd will contain a package that will
> > > result in remote root exploits if you install them a half year after the release
> > > date.
> > >
> > > You can't be sure about that for any other rpm.
> > >
> > > I say lets dump wu-ftpd completely from the distro. I don't want to make it too
> > > easy for users to shoot themselves in the foot.
> >
> > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the example is a
> > touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2 (last version it shipped
> > in main).
> >
> > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =)
> >
> > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about sendmail)
>
> I think that both are super excellent ideas; pure-ftp should definitely
> be the default, for many reasons, but if only because of it's infinitely
> better security. For the opposite reason of insecurity I also agree
> with you on sendmail; it should be a go getter.
I don't mind pure-ftpd being default, although it we want secure I still
maintain that vsftpd is what we want. Can't beat it for security. Of
course, it's a little spartan on the feature side as well.
Of course, I still don't get why we're jumping all over proftpd. It isn't
really *that* insecure. As I pointed out to Han regarding wu-ftpd, proftpd
is in a similar boat. There is this hole, which should be available in
updates RSN, but the last one was in Jan 2002... over a year and a half ago.
Again, comparing to sendmail, this sucker is pretty secure. Heck, compare
it to openssh! How many updates for openssh have there been in the same
timespan?
We can't just throw stuff out the window because it has a hole today and has
had one over a year or two years ago. That's just silly. Why aren't we
jumping up and down about ditching php? Or apache? Or cups? Or XFree86?
Or bind? Or openldap? The list goes on. All of those have been updated
within the last 1-2 years as well, some many many times.
Personally, if pure-ftpd can't authenticate against LDAP (like proftpd can),
I'm not overly interested. =) proftpd may have some issues periodically,
but you can't beat it for configurability.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Replacing proftpd by pureftpd ?
On Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 01:15:07AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote:
> > Heck, I'm all for it and agree with all your reasons. But the example
> > is a touch out... wu-ftpd hasn't been in main since 8.2 (last version
> > it shipped in main).
> >
> > Hey, while we're at it, can we throw sendmail in contribs? =)
> >
> > (Serious about killing wu-ftpd altogether, semi-serious about
> > sendmail)
>
> To give a serious answer (like I got any authority in this :)
> No we can't ditch sendmail. Too many people rely and like sendmail. And
> it's not that evil. I mean there are some periods in which no exploits
> are found in sendmail.
The same could be said of wu-ftpd, tho. There was the one issue in July,
and previous to that was Nov 2001. So from 11/01->07/03 it was pretty
quiet. I guarantee you in that timeframe sendmail has had more security
issues.
> But what we can do is keeping a close eye or even import the sendmail in
> OpenBSD-cvs which is audited. Same thing goes for BIND. I don't know how
> practical this is but it sounds like something to contemplate.
Is openbsd using bind9 yet? Or are they still on bind4? If they are using
bind9, I have my doubts that it's been audited... that's a lot of code to
audit so quickly, especially considering how long they left bind4 in there.
On the sendmail side, I'm not sure. Is it up to date? We won't win any
friends by regressing to an older-but-openbsd-audited version.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
{FE6F2AFD : 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD}
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