subject:"RE\: \[Declude.JunkMail\] Declude 4.3"

Title: Message








Then stop offering mail if it such a burden to the business.
Explain to your customer that they can 

 

can go to Hotmail or Yahoo.  When the addy gets horked
by spammers, simply abandon it and create another.

 

Let us know how many customers stay with your service. Of course
you will not be able to quantify the lost new business!

 

 

Kevin Bilbee

 

 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \ WCNet
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:55 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3





 



Hahahahaha!  E-mail hardly keeps or draws
customers.  Anybody who wants e-mail can go to Hotmail or Yahoo. 
When the addy gets horked by spammers, simply abandon it and create
another.  Domain hosting, maybe a little.  However, I have domain
customers who have never used their included mail service.





 





 





- Original Message - 



From: Kevin Bilbee 





To: declude.junkmail@declude.com 





Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:12 AM





Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3







 



So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it
revenue would be lost. The ISP users need to ask is what level of these
services do I need to offer to keep current customers happy and what level of
service do I need to land new business?

 

 

Kevin Bilbee

 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:35 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3





 



Kevin,





 





Mainly
because in order to get other types of business that may bring revenue
(hosting, etc) this type of service is expected.  Look at any ISP/hosting
provider that is offering $5.00 a month hosting plans this is what everyone
competes with.  





 





Could
you imagine yourself (consumer or small business) signing up with a hosting
provider and them not handling your email or even better not virus scanning
it?  Even with yahoo/gmail you get free spam filtering and virus scanning.





 





Darrell






Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com
for utilities for Declude And Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue
Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers.







-
Original Message - 





From: Kevin Bilbee 





To: declude.junkmail@declude.com






Sent: Tuesday, July 18,
2006 11:22 PM





Subject: RE:
[Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3





 





Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion
is a lost leader/not a revenue builder.





 





If it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering
spam/virus protection?





 





 





 





Kevin Bilbee




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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

No they do not impose a revenue sharing model, but toilet paper is still a 
consumable that indirectly makes restaurants money by keeping its customers 
happy. When it is there no one notices, when it is not customers definitely 
know and are put off.

My comments are not about the revenue sharing but that email is a lost leader 
for an ISP. Lost leaders simply make business money by keeping the customers 
happy purchasing other higher margin products. Otherwise there would be no 
reason to sell a service for less than it costs to maintain.


Kevin Bilbee 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Glenn \ WCNet
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 2:01 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> I think one thing that happened here is that the announcement regarding
> ComTouch didn't make it *clear* that it is an *optional* part of
> Declude.
> MY initial impression was that *any* Service Provider who uses the
> version of Declude that incomes ComTouch would be required to
> participate in the licensing of it, by whatever scheme fit the bill.
> Now that I understand it's optional, fine, I don't have to use that
> part.
> 
> The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee
> or take a direct percentage of the restaurant's
> daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly sales.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kevin Bilbee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:33 PM
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> 
> Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and
> it
> costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing
> the
> service?
> 
> Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital
> investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make
> money.
> 
> An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper?
> 
> 
> Kevin Bilbee
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> > Matt Robertson
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:57 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> > On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it
> > > revenue would be lost.
> >
> > Hardly.  Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is.  By virtue
> > of the fact that they allow me to be in business in the first place I
> > can expect a knock on the door from Microsoft since they make the
> > server o/s... and Dell since they make the servers.  So just being a
> > part of the show lets the pig belly up to the trough.
> >
> > Not in this universe.
> >
> > --
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Janitor, MSB Web Systems
> > mysecretbase.com
> >
> >
> > ---
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> > at http://www.mail-archive.com.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 





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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Andy, not sure what you mean, are you beating around the Bush ?

David B
www.declude.com 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy
Schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:41 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

 
>> The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage 
>> fee or
take a direct percentage of the restaurant's <<

Otherwise, Chili's would revise their menus.

Enough of that sh*t, as a certain world leader would say.

Best Regards
Andy Schmidt

Phone:  +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business)
Fax:+1 201 934-9206 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \
WCNet
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 05:01 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I think one thing that happened here is that the announcement regarding
ComTouch didn't make it *clear* that it is an *optional* part of Declude.
MY initial impression was that *any* Service Provider who uses the version
of Declude that incomes ComTouch would be required to participate in the
licensing of it, by whatever scheme fit the bill.  Now that I understand
it's optional, fine, I don't have to use that part.

The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee or
take a direct percentage of the restaurant's
daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly sales.


- Original Message -
From: "Kevin Bilbee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it
costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the
service?

Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital
investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money.

An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper?


Kevin Bilbee


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Matt Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it 
> > revenue would be lost.
>
> Hardly.  Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is.  By virtue 
> of the fact that they allow me to be in business in the first place I 
> can expect a knock on the door from Microsoft since they make the 
> server o/s... and Dell since they make the servers.  So just being a 
> part of the show lets the pig belly up to the trough.
>
> Not in this universe.
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Janitor, MSB Web Systems
> mysecretbase.com
>
>
> ---
> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To 
> unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type 
> "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com.
>





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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Andy Schmidt

>> The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee or
take a direct percentage of the restaurant's <<

Otherwise, Chili's would revise their menus.

Enough of that sh*t, as a certain world leader would say.

Best Regards
Andy Schmidt

Phone:  +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business)
Fax:+1 201 934-9206 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \
WCNet
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 05:01 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I think one thing that happened here is that the announcement regarding
ComTouch didn't make it *clear* that it is an *optional* part of Declude.
MY initial impression was that *any* Service Provider who uses the version
of Declude that incomes ComTouch would be required to participate in the
licensing of it, by whatever scheme fit the bill.  Now that I understand
it's optional, fine, I don't have to use that part.

The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee or
take a direct percentage of the restaurant's
daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly sales.

- Original Message -
From: "Kevin Bilbee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it
costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the
service?

Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital
investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money.

An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper?

Kevin Bilbee

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Matt Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it
> > revenue would be lost.
>
> Hardly.  Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is.  By virtue
> of the fact that they allow me to be in business in the first place I
> can expect a knock on the door from Microsoft since they make the
> server o/s... and Dell since they make the servers.  So just being a
> part of the show lets the pig belly up to the trough.
>
> Not in this universe.
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Janitor, MSB Web Systems
> mysecretbase.com
>
>
> ---
> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To
> unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
> type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
> at http://www.mail-archive.com.
>

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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Matt Robertson


On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

If revenue would not be lost without it and it costs you money to provide then 
what is the business case for providing the service?


In 2006, for any small operator, nothing insofar as the service itself
is concerned.  You only do it to provide a complete solution for
customers, and you do it at a loss.  If I could cut out email I could
cut out 50% of the server resources I have in place (and which I just
finished tripling).  The increasingly difficult model for the small
ISP dictated my shift into an emphasis on contract programming and
away from design and hosting.

So when a company that caters to the small business -- who as a body
are pretty much all in the same boat -- and seeks to increase their
costs in a market where consumer perception is that they're already an
expensive choice (I am cutting fees to existing customers to keep
them... not raising them)... well thats going to be a mighty tough
sell to anyone who is in the trenches and understands fully what they
are up against.

I came into this thread a little late and if my read on the posts from
Declude is any indication, some of this is sinking in.  I'll make a
decision after I see what the revenue sharing program looks like.

As an aside to Declude to explain where I am coming from: I was a
Declude user for a couple of years and left it for an open source
solution, which I am still reasonably happy with, but -- since I am
already going to the trouble of rebuilding all of my mail services on
new servers right now -- am willing to reconsider if I can get a
qualitative advantage for a justifiable cost.

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com


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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Glenn \\ WCNet

I think one thing that happened here is that the announcement regarding
ComTouch didn't make it *clear* that it is an *optional* part of Declude.
MY initial impression was that *any* Service Provider who uses the version
of Declude that incomes ComTouch would be required to participate in the
licensing of it, by whatever scheme fit the bill.  Now that I understand
it's optional, fine, I don't have to use that part.

The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee or
take a direct percentage of the restaurant's
daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly sales.

- Original Message - 
From: "Kevin Bilbee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it
costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the
service?

Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital
investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money.

An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper?

Kevin Bilbee

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Matt Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it
> > revenue would be lost.
>
> Hardly.  Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is.  By virtue
> of the fact that they allow me to be in business in the first place I
> can expect a knock on the door from Microsoft since they make the
> server o/s... and Dell since they make the servers.  So just being a
> part of the show lets the pig belly up to the trough.
>
> Not in this universe.
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Janitor, MSB Web Systems
> mysecretbase.com
>
>
> ---
> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To
> unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
> type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
> at http://www.mail-archive.com.
>

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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it costs 
you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the service?

Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital 
investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money.

An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper? 


Kevin Bilbee


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Matt Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it
> > revenue would be lost.
> 
> Hardly.  Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is.  By virtue
> of the fact that they allow me to be in business in the first place I
> can expect a knock on the door from Microsoft since they make the
> server o/s... and Dell since they make the servers.  So just being a
> part of the show lets the pig belly up to the trough.
> 
> Not in this universe.
> 
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Janitor, MSB Web Systems
> mysecretbase.com
> 
> 
> ---
> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To
> unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
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> at http://www.mail-archive.com.
> 





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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Darin Cox

They were at $264 for combo JunkMail/Virus, which works out to $132/product.
Later they were broken out at $132 apiece.  Then the price was raised. Then
the price was evidently lowered back to what it was (I haven't looked to
verify this last, just taking David B's word on it).

Darin.


- Original Message - 
From: "R. Scott Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


> Oh and prices were increased from $132 to $295 before they were
dropped back
 > to $132 for legacy customers, so there was no price cut except in the
sense
 > of department stores raising prices to have a sale.

FYI, from the time that Service Agreements first came out through
December, 2004 the Service Agreements were never less expensive than
$295.  So when they were lowered to $132, it was definitely a real price
cut.
 -Scott



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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Matt Robertson


On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it revenue
would be lost.


Hardly.  Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is.  By virtue
of the fact that they allow me to be in business in the first place I
can expect a knock on the door from Microsoft since they make the
server o/s... and Dell since they make the servers.  So just being a
part of the show lets the pig belly up to the trough.

Not in this universe.

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

To help clarify this. Service Providers are businesses like ISP's, Hosting
Providers, Clean & Forward services who provide spam protection and/or virus
protection to their customers by charging them a fee for the service that
they offer.

Whereas a Non Service Provider would be a business that provides email to
it's own employees.

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:41 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

On 7/14/06, Scott Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another hand raised. End User (business) here. Apparantly I missed the 
> Exchange memo.

Put yourr hand down :-)  According to the definition you are a service
provider.  Quoted with emphasis added:

"definition: a business which provides their customers with delivery of
their Email communications AND/OR USERS with access to their own Email

I'm curious about CommTouch and coming back to Declude but the implications
of what I am seeing are indeed disturbing

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com


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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Matt Robertson


On 7/14/06, Scott Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Another hand raised. End User (business) here. Apparantly I missed the
Exchange memo.


Put yourr hand down :-)  According to the definition you are a service
provider.  Quoted with emphasis added:

"definition: a business which provides their customers with delivery
of their Email communications AND/OR USERS with access to their own
Email

I'm curious about CommTouch and coming back to Declude but the
implications of what I am seeing are indeed disturbing

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com


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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread R. Scott Perry

> Oh and prices were increased from $132 to $295 before they were 
dropped back
> to $132 for legacy customers, so there was no price cut except in the 
sense

> of department stores raising prices to have a sale.

FYI, from the time that Service Agreements first came out through 
December, 2004 the Service Agreements were never less expensive than  
$295.  So when they were lowered to $132, it was definitely a real price 
cut.

-Scott



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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Glenn \\ WCNet

Title: Message



Hahahahaha!  E-mail hardly keeps or 
draws customers.  Anybody who wants e-mail can go to Hotmail or 
Yahoo.  When the addy gets horked by spammers, simply abandon it and create 
another.  Domain hosting, maybe a little.  However, I have domain 
customers who have never used their included mail service.
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Bilbee 
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com 

Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


So 
then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it revenue would be 
lost. The ISP users need to ask is what level of these services do I need to 
offer to keep current customers happy and what level of service do I need to 
land new business?
 
 
Kevin 
Bilbee
 


From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED])Sent: 
Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:35 AMTo: 
declude.junkmail@declude.comSubject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 
4.3
 

Kevin,

 

Mainly because in 
order to get other types of business that may bring revenue (hosting, etc) this 
type of service is expected.  Look at any ISP/hosting provider that is 
offering $5.00 a month hosting plans this is what everyone competes with.  


 

Could you imagine 
yourself (consumer or small business) signing up with a hosting provider and 
them not handling your email or even better not virus scanning it?  Even 
with yahoo/gmail you get free spam filtering and virus 
scanning.

 

Darrell

Check 
out http://www.invariantsystems.com for 
utilities for Declude And Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, 
SURBL/URI integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers.

  
  - Original 
  Message - 
  
  From: Kevin Bilbee 
  
  
  To: declude.junkmail@declude.com 
  
  
  Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 
  2006 11:22 PM
  
  Subject: RE: 
  [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
  
   
  
  Question 
  to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a lost leader/not 
  a revenue builder.
  
   
  
  If it 
  does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus 
  protection?
  
   
  
   
  
   
  
  Kevin 
  Bilbee
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  mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype 
  "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. 
  
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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

2006-07-19 Thread Bill Landry

Also check out the free Distributed Checksum Clearinghouse 
(http://www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/dcc/), which we have also been using 
successfully for a few years.  Not to mention the old Pyzor service 
(http://pyzor.sourceforge.net/), which is still available and functioning 
(Razor spun off from this project) and we also use.  And finally, see iXhash 
(http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/iXhash), which we also just started 
using about a month ago.


I guess what I am getting at here is that there are lots of "free" 
choices/options/solutions available out there without having to resort to 
pricey and convoluted options like CommTouch.  Had Declude queried its 
customer base before getting in bed with CommTouch, they might have come up 
with some better/cheaper/more acceptable solutions...


Bill
- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Landry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?


Sound like Cloudmark (http://www.cloudmark.com/) and their free Razor 
service (http://razor.sourceforge.net/), which I have already been using 
successfully for a few years now.


Bill
- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?



Darrell,

1. Are components of the message hashed and some type of hash is sent to
CommTouch for analysis?

RPD extracts 2 types of patterns from the message, Distribution Patterns
(from the header), and Structural Pattern (mathematical sample of the 
body
and attachments.  These patterns don't contain anything to violate 
privacy

concerns.  They don't use things like recipient information, and the
structural patterns are a random sampling of the bytes of the message 
(not

looking for the content or meaning of the words).  These patterns make up
what is called a digital signature, that is one way hashed using md5 and
sent to CT detection centers where the hash is compared to CT DB hashes. 
A
reply is sent back with the result classification.  This process takes 
about

150ms.

2. What ports/protocol does it communicate with CommTouch back on?

The CT Engine communicates to CT centers over port 80.  A proprietary
protocol is used for this communication, it is not standard HTTP.  As 
long
as the box can access the internet (with or without a proxy), CT can 
access

our centers.  There is also a built-in failover mechanism.

3. Is there a mechanism that if false positive is detected to do a what 
we

call when using Sniffer a rule panic?

There is a procedure that Declude or users can report FP's to CommTouch. 
I

am having a KB article written on how to do this.

4. Is there a trial?

Unfortunately not as every time CT is activated we pay a fee.

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
Darrell

([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:26 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

David,

Are components of the message hashed and some type of hash is sent to
CommTouch for analysis?

What ports/protocol does it communicate with CommTouch back on?

How does one handle false positives? through Declude or directly to
CommTouch?

Is there a mechanism that if false positive is detected to do a what we 
call

when using sniffer a rule panic?

Is there a trial?

Darrell

David Barker writes:


Darrell,

It is not a DNS test. Commtouch analyzes large volumes of Internet
traffic in real time. New spam and Malware outbreaks are identified as
soon as emerge, and recorded in the Commtouch Detection Center. The
Commtouch in Declude queries the Commtouch Detection Center and
receives a message classification in real-time. The result is instant
protection from new outbreaks.

David B
www.declude.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:32 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this

works.

Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc?

Darrell
--
-- Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude
And Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI
integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers.

- Original Message -
From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?


-David,

Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch
or something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Darin Cox

Hi David,

In regards to the concern raised by many, and you're response that you need
time to turn everything around...

The problem many of us are having is that all we have seen so far, even in
the recent announcements, is demand for more money with none of the
increased functionality we've been asking for for two years now.  It would
have settled much better with most of us if announcements had been made of
new functionality so we feel better about the money we've already spent with
you and gotten no benefit from, rather than a communication about increased
costs with no discernable added functionality (for the many of us who
already have Message Sniffer).

I'm sure you would have gotten a much better reception if you had started
with relaying increased functionality that many have been asking for for a
couple of years, and how customers with existing service agreements would be
extended due to the previous lack of added features and support.

In short, lead with an offer to make existing customers feel better, not a
demand for more money from those who are already frustrated.  The latter
tactic just serves to drive customers away, and is the same tactic Ipswitch
used unsuccessfully.

Oh and prices were increased from $132 to $295 before they were dropped back
to $132 for legacy customers, so there was no price cut except in the sense
of department stores raising prices to have a sale.

We all know IT costs are among the first cuts in any business, so market
share and increased product/service lines are a much better way to increase
revenue than increasing prices for the same product/service.  The latter is
usually a sign of a struggling business that is trying to keep from going
under.

I don't mean to beat the pulpy mess that used to be a horse, been trying to
stay silent through all of this to let you come through on your own, but the
above perspective seems to have been missed.  Bottom line is consider your
customer's concerns before you make announcements, address them in the
announcement, and you'll be more successful.

All the best,

Darin.


- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:23 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


Matt,

1. With regards to no new functionality, we have been over this I agreed and
made a commitment to address this. I think to say that Declude has become
more buggy over time is not entirely true as I have posted before, much of
the problems were not seen under the single application declude.exe, many of
these things became more obvious with the decludeproc service. Again this is
not a new point of contention but we cannot keep going over and over it
again and again, I am asking that you give me some time to turn this around.

2. As far as the licensing mechanism is concerned we talked about this less
than a week ago, and again I committed to coming up with a solution. I do
understand the problem. I will tackle each issue one at a time everything
cannot be all done at once.

3. "It is not however in any way quantifiable to revenue generation." I
disagree for many of the same reasons that Goran suggested.

4. To compare Declude to IMail is not a good comparison especially when the
cost of our Service Agreements have been what they are and not increased, if
fact we lowered the cost of our Service Agreements. They used to be $295 per
product and we changed that to $132 for our legacy customers. How quickly we
forget how much it is for an IMail renewal these days ?

To summarize, lets stop the bitching and start working together as a
community again. I am totally aware of everything that is posted on the list
and I have a long list of action items, one day at time is my approach.  I
am reaching out to those on the list who want to do this, and work with
Declude to create a better product, service and happy customers because at
the end of the day that's what it is all about. For us to be successful you
need to be successful, that is our goal.

David B
www.declude.com






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:53 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

It's the revenue share.  Is that not a requirement of the gateway product?
Are people like me not your target for the gateway product?

It's also what one isn't getting for the product that exists now.  I don't
wish to see new functionality added at an expense when the lack of  product
enhancements it is clearly one of the biggest gripes that people have.
Declude has become progressively more buggy over time and done so without
adding many advantages.

I am now in a position where the new licensing enforcement mechanism
prohibits me from upgrading to a version that fixes bugs even if it was
offered because the licensing en

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

CT is only run once and deals with spam as a weighted test or a Virus as a
Virus scanner on the AV side, it runs before the AV in the virus.cfg all
other scanners will also run if EXITSCANONVIRUSDETECT   OFF

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:41 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Is this how the AV part of the program works and will it run when the other
AV scanners run or is it only run once and then identified as either spam or
a virus? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
Barker
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:11 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Darrell,

It is not a DNS test. Commtouch analyzes large volumes of Internet traffic
in real time. New spam and Malware outbreaks are identified as soon as they
emerge, and recorded in the Commtouch Detection Center. The Commtouch Engine
in Declude queries the Commtouch Detection Center and receives a message
classification in real-time. The result is instant protection from new
outbreaks.

David B
www.declude.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:32 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this works. 
Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc?

Darrell

Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude And
Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG
Integration, and Log Parsers.

- Original Message -
From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?


-David,

Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch or
something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable, but
I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it.

Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive"
pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.
Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms.

And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too.

- Original Message -
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we 
> had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 
> 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
>
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no 
> restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
>
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to 
> enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) 
> to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this 
> program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an 
> opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business, by 
> providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which would be 
> independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include CommTouch.
>
> David B
> www.declude.com
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
>
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise 
> transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User 
> License Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, 
> Inc. for such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed 
> Program into another application and then distribute such to third 
> parties unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). 
> As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and other service providers are not 
> permitted to use Declude software to clean and forward mail to 
> customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has been 
> established with Declude.
>
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
>
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software 
> and now have to pay them some of your meager profits?
>
> John T
> eServices For You
>
&

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Matt,
 
1. With regards to no new functionality, we have been over this I agreed and
made a commitment to address this. I think to say that Declude has become
more buggy over time is not entirely true as I have posted before, much of
the problems were not seen under the single application declude.exe, many of
these things became more obvious with the decludeproc service. Again this is
not a new point of contention but we cannot keep going over and over it
again and again, I am asking that you give me some time to turn this around.

2. As far as the licensing mechanism is concerned we talked about this less
than a week ago, and again I committed to coming up with a solution. I do
understand the problem. I will tackle each issue one at a time everything
cannot be all done at once.

3. "It is not however in any way quantifiable to revenue generation." I
disagree for many of the same reasons that Goran suggested.

4. To compare Declude to IMail is not a good comparison especially when the
cost of our Service Agreements have been what they are and not increased, if
fact we lowered the cost of our Service Agreements. They used to be $295 per
product and we changed that to $132 for our legacy customers. How quickly we
forget how much it is for an IMail renewal these days ? 

To summarize, lets stop the bitching and start working together as a
community again. I am totally aware of everything that is posted on the list
and I have a long list of action items, one day at time is my approach.  I
am reaching out to those on the list who want to do this, and work with
Declude to create a better product, service and happy customers because at
the end of the day that's what it is all about. For us to be successful you
need to be successful, that is our goal.

David B
www.declude.com






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:53 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

It's the revenue share.  Is that not a requirement of the gateway product?
Are people like me not your target for the gateway product?

It's also what one isn't getting for the product that exists now.  I don't
wish to see new functionality added at an expense when the lack of  product
enhancements it is clearly one of the biggest gripes that people have.
Declude has become progressively more buggy over time and done so without
adding many advantages.

I am now in a position where the new licensing enforcement mechanism
prohibits me from upgrading to a version that fixes bugs even if it was
offered because the licensing enforcement mechanism is not sound and a huge
liability to me.  I've been bitching about licensing enforcement since
Declude was purchased and it started phoning home.  Then last Christmas Eve,
you guys messed up and the poorly designed license enforcement mechanism
caused many systems to stop processing E-mail for several days while it was
claimed that you had no purposeful capabilities to disable software in this
way.  Then the software was patched and it was promised that Declude would
not actively disable software in this way.  Then a few months later you did
just that.  This is completely unacceptable and it must be changed in order
for me to continue using the product.

Now as far as CommTouch is concerned, I did address this very fairly earlier
in this thread:


"With that said, as an add-on in the same regard as things like
Sniffer, CommTouch might be a good solution (if it performs well) for those
that can pay the $195/year, however it still irks me that after two years
and lots of promises, these things are being added at an extra expense and
not available to people like me under reasonable terms." 


There is no doubt that CommTouch has potential, just like any other new
test, to make my system easier to operate or slightly more accurate, and for
many these differences could be even larger.  It is not however in any way
quantifiable to revenue generation.  It is only a cost.

If Declude wants to have any success in courting for-profit spam and virus
blocking services, you will base your licensing on user counts and
functionality, and bear in mind that being successful in this business is
not a matter of using Declude, but instead being good at one does, so the
service providers should have the benefit of increased margins when volume
exceeds that of most.  For service providers that offer these things as an
expected and highly commoditized service, you should understand that they
will not by any means jump at the opportunity to pay any more than they
already are.  As some have pointed out, there was a mass exodus from IMail
to SmarterMail based on just two things...increased costs and no attention
to adding expected functionality, instead IMail pretended that they were a
groupware company and that everyone would love th

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

2006-07-19 Thread Bill Landry

Sound like Cloudmark (http://www.cloudmark.com/) and their free Razor 
service (http://razor.sourceforge.net/), which I have already been using 
successfully for a few years now.

Bill
- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Darrell,

1. Are components of the message hashed and some type of hash is sent to
CommTouch for analysis?

RPD extracts 2 types of patterns from the message, Distribution Patterns
(from the header), and Structural Pattern (mathematical sample of the body
and attachments.  These patterns don't contain anything to violate privacy
concerns.  They don't use things like recipient information, and the
structural patterns are a random sampling of the bytes of the message (not
looking for the content or meaning of the words).  These patterns make up
what is called a digital signature, that is one way hashed using md5 and
sent to CT detection centers where the hash is compared to CT DB hashes. 
A
reply is sent back with the result classification.  This process takes 
about

150ms.

2. What ports/protocol does it communicate with CommTouch back on?

The CT Engine communicates to CT centers over port 80.  A proprietary
protocol is used for this communication, it is not standard HTTP.  As long
as the box can access the internet (with or without a proxy), CT can 
access

our centers.  There is also a built-in failover mechanism.

3. Is there a mechanism that if false positive is detected to do a what we
call when using Sniffer a rule panic?

There is a procedure that Declude or users can report FP's to CommTouch. I
am having a KB article written on how to do this.

4. Is there a trial?

Unfortunately not as every time CT is activated we pay a fee.

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
Darrell

([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:26 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

David,

Are components of the message hashed and some type of hash is sent to
CommTouch for analysis?

What ports/protocol does it communicate with CommTouch back on?

How does one handle false positives? through Declude or directly to
CommTouch?

Is there a mechanism that if false positive is detected to do a what we 
call

when using sniffer a rule panic?

Is there a trial?

Darrell

David Barker writes:

Darrell,

It is not a DNS test. Commtouch analyzes large volumes of Internet
traffic in real time. New spam and Malware outbreaks are identified as
soon as emerge, and recorded in the Commtouch Detection Center. The
Commtouch in Declude queries the Commtouch Detection Center and
receives a message classification in real-time. The result is instant
protection from new outbreaks.

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:32 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this

works.

Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc?

Darrell
--
-- Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude
And Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI
integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers.

- Original Message -
From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

-David,

Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch
or something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable,
but I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it.

Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive"
pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.
Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms.

And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too.

- Original Message -
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
we had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1
June 06) understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06)
to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, th

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Matt





David,

It's the revenue share.  Is that not a requirement of the gateway
product?  Are people like me not your target for the gateway product?

It's also what one isn't getting for the product that exists now.  I
don't wish to see new functionality added at an expense when the lack
of  product enhancements it is clearly one of the biggest gripes that
people have.  Declude has become progressively more buggy over time and
done so without adding many advantages.

I am now in a position where the new licensing enforcement mechanism
prohibits me from upgrading to a version that fixes bugs even if it was
offered because the licensing enforcement mechanism is not sound and a
huge liability to me.  I've been bitching about licensing enforcement
since Declude was purchased and it started phoning home.  Then last
Christmas Eve, you guys messed up and the poorly designed license
enforcement mechanism caused many systems to stop processing E-mail for
several days while it was claimed that you had no purposeful
capabilities to disable software in this way.  Then the software was
patched and it was promised that Declude would not actively disable
software in this way.  Then a few months later you did just that.  This
is completely unacceptable and it must be changed in order for me to
continue using the product.

Now as far as CommTouch is concerned, I did address this very fairly
earlier in this thread:
"With that said, as an add-on in the same regard as
things like Sniffer, CommTouch might be a good solution (if it performs
well) for those that can pay the $195/year, however it still irks me
that after two years and lots of promises, these things are being added
at an extra expense and not available to people like me under
reasonable terms."

There is no doubt that CommTouch has potential, just like any other new
test, to make my system easier to operate or slightly more accurate,
and for many these differences could be even larger.  It is not however
in any way quantifiable to revenue generation.  It is only a cost.

If Declude wants to have any success in courting for-profit spam and
virus blocking services, you will base your licensing on user counts
and functionality, and bear in mind that being successful in this
business is not a matter of using Declude, but instead being good at
one does, so the service providers should have the benefit of increased
margins when volume exceeds that of most.  For service providers that
offer these things as an expected and highly commoditized service, you
should understand that they will not by any means jump at the
opportunity to pay any more than they already are.  As some have
pointed out, there was a mass exodus from IMail to SmarterMail based on
just two things...increased costs and no attention to adding expected
functionality, instead IMail pretended that they were a groupware
company and that everyone would love them even more for it.  Declude
needs to stop copying the Ipswitch of then, and start copying the
Ipswitch of now under Kevin Gillis' direction as they try to pick up
the pieces of past mistakes.

Matt



David Barker wrote:

  CT is a feature of the new Declude Gateway product. It was by my request
that we made CT available to Declude Security Suite users as an option and
price that is beyond reasonable. As you have clearly pointed out in your
post that CT is of no real value to you ("CommTouch has zero possibility of
generating revenue for businesses like my own") then you ask me why it is
not available to people like you under reasonable terms. 

Am I missing something ?

It comes down to this, it was my descions to include CT for those who could
make use of it and we negotiated a deal where we could include our Service
Providers under a different program. What we are doing is giving you our
customers options, which I do not see as being the wrong way to do things.  

David B
www.declude.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:11 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I agree with this.  I was also once a hosting provider which was ancillary
to a business that I used to operate which required me to offer hosting.  I
added E-mail because I was sick of dealing with my customer's ISP's for
their E-mail problems (lost passwords, poorly performing services, bad
technical support, etc.).  Then after several years of doing E-mail I ran
into a problem where my customers were frequently getting infected by
viruses and their virus infections were preventing them from exploiting the
benefits of their Web presence...so I purchased Declude.  Spam wasn't much
of an issue then.  Then a year later spam started becoming more of an issue
and I started tweaking my Declude configs to try to block more, and I
started running into the issues of false positives, plus althoug

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Darrell,

1. Are components of the message hashed and some type of hash is sent to
CommTouch for analysis? 

RPD extracts 2 types of patterns from the message, Distribution Patterns
(from the header), and Structural Pattern (mathematical sample of the body
and attachments.  These patterns don't contain anything to violate privacy
concerns.  They don't use things like recipient information, and the
structural patterns are a random sampling of the bytes of the message (not
looking for the content or meaning of the words).  These patterns make up
what is called a digital signature, that is one way hashed using md5 and
sent to CT detection centers where the hash is compared to CT DB hashes.  A
reply is sent back with the result classification.  This process takes about
150ms. 

2. What ports/protocol does it communicate with CommTouch back on? 

The CT Engine communicates to CT centers over port 80.  A proprietary
protocol is used for this communication, it is not standard HTTP.  As long
as the box can access the internet (with or without a proxy), CT can access
our centers.  There is also a built-in failover mechanism.

3. Is there a mechanism that if false positive is detected to do a what we
call when using Sniffer a rule panic? 

There is a procedure that Declude or users can report FP's to CommTouch. I
am having a KB article written on how to do this. 

4. Is there a trial? 

Unfortunately not as every time CT is activated we pay a fee.

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:26 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

David, 

Are components of the message hashed and some type of hash is sent to
CommTouch for analysis? 

What ports/protocol does it communicate with CommTouch back on? 

How does one handle false positives? through Declude or directly to
CommTouch? 

Is there a mechanism that if false positive is detected to do a what we call
when using sniffer a rule panic? 

Is there a trial? 

Darrell 

David Barker writes: 

> Darrell,
> 
> It is not a DNS test. Commtouch analyzes large volumes of Internet 
> traffic in real time. New spam and Malware outbreaks are identified as 
> soon as emerge, and recorded in the Commtouch Detection Center. The 
> Commtouch in Declude queries the Commtouch Detection Center and 
> receives a message classification in real-time. The result is instant 
> protection from new outbreaks.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Darrell
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:32 AM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ? 
> 
> Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this
works. 
> Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc? 
> 
> Darrell
> --
> -- Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude 
> And Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI 
> integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers.
> 
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ? 
> 
> 
> -David,
> 
> Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch 
> or something similiar?
> As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable, 
> but I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it.
> 
> Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive"
> pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.
> Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms. 
> 
> And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too. 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> 
>> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers 
>> we had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 
>> June 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
>>
>> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no 
>> restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
>>
>> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to 
>> enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) 
>> to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue sha

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

CT is a feature of the new Declude Gateway product. It was by my request
that we made CT available to Declude Security Suite users as an option and
price that is beyond reasonable. As you have clearly pointed out in your
post that CT is of no real value to you ("CommTouch has zero possibility of
generating revenue for businesses like my own") then you ask me why it is
not available to people like you under reasonable terms. 

Am I missing something ?

It comes down to this, it was my descions to include CT for those who could
make use of it and we negotiated a deal where we could include our Service
Providers under a different program. What we are doing is giving you our
customers options, which I do not see as being the wrong way to do things.  

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:11 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I agree with this.  I was also once a hosting provider which was ancillary
to a business that I used to operate which required me to offer hosting.  I
added E-mail because I was sick of dealing with my customer's ISP's for
their E-mail problems (lost passwords, poorly performing services, bad
technical support, etc.).  Then after several years of doing E-mail I ran
into a problem where my customers were frequently getting infected by
viruses and their virus infections were preventing them from exploiting the
benefits of their Web presence...so I purchased Declude.  Spam wasn't much
of an issue then.  Then a year later spam started becoming more of an issue
and I started tweaking my Declude configs to try to block more, and I
started running into the issues of false positives, plus although I was
blocking more, the increase in volume was causing more to leak so my
customers were complaining more and more.  I bared down and eventually
became an expert, and I decided then that instead of this being a cost to me
(no one paid me for E-mail, just Web hosting and other services), I decided
to turn it into a business.

My largest source of revenue from this business just so happens to be from
another Declude user who operates a Web hosting company.  He was in the same
place as I was, but he didn't have the patience or understanding to fix all
of his issues, and I showed him how we could both profit from upselling the
service and I fixed his false positive issues and made his server more
manageable to boot.  He still uses Declude and it is still free for his
customers (who generally don't even know it is there), but many customers do
want more and are willing to pay.  Without offering this alternative, he
would lose not just the revenue from MailPure that he shares, but also some
of the customers that were unsatisfied with his standard Declude protection.

I have four hosting providers that I work with now that resell my service,
and two of those are current Declude customers.  One tells me that he picks
up customers because other customers tell their friends to come to his
service because they have MailPure.  Many of these guys are technically
capable of doing better on their own, but they got into the business to host
and or design Web sites and not to deal with spam and viruses just like me,
and it is not easy to turn a profit from an expensive ancillary service
offering without making a major change in focus (or skipping all of that and
partnering with someone like me).

CommTouch has zero possibility of generating revenue for businesses like my
own even though I profit from offering the service unlike most service
providers.  This is why a revenue share with Declude is out of the question.
The suggestions are that CommTouch will make experts out of novices in this
game and allow some to become spam blocking businesses by simply adding
better detection, but spam blocking businesses don't come packaged for
people to plug-n-play.  For most, spam and virus blocking will remain a cost
center.  Approaching this market with a revenue share licensing for a
software add-on is overwhelming evidence of not understanding the market.

With that said, as an add-on in the same regard as things like Sniffer,
CommTouch might be a good solution (if it performs well) for those that can
pay the $195/year, however it still irks me that after two years and lots of
promises, these things are being added at an extra expense and not available
to people like me under reasonable terms.

Matt

Paul Navarre wrote:

>***
>Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a lost 
>leader/not a revenue builder.
> 
>If it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering 
>spam/virus protection?
>***
>
>Is this a serious question?
>
>If you don't offer spam and virus filtering, you won't have any customers.
>In most markets the local competition

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Title: Message









So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it revenue
would be lost. The ISP users need to ask is what level of these services do I
need to offer to keep current customers happy and what level of service do I
need to land new business?

 

 

Kevin Bilbee

 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:35 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3





 



Kevin,





 





Mainly
because in order to get other types of business that may bring revenue
(hosting, etc) this type of service is expected.  Look at any ISP/hosting
provider that is offering $5.00 a month hosting plans this is what everyone
competes with.  





 





Could
you imagine yourself (consumer or small business) signing up with a hosting
provider and them not handling your email or even better not virus scanning
it?  Even with yahoo/gmail you get free spam filtering and virus scanning.





 





Darrell






Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com
for utilities for Declude And Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue
Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers.







-
Original Message - 





From: Kevin Bilbee 





To: declude.junkmail@declude.com






Sent: Tuesday, July 18,
2006 11:22 PM





Subject: RE:
[Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3





 





Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion
is a lost leader/not a revenue builder.





 





If it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering
spam/virus protection?





 





 





 





Kevin Bilbee




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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Dan Shadix

I am one of the Declude users that is not a service provider but use it
only to protect our relatively small network. I've been very happy with
Declude's recent moves and have upgraded to the 4.x suite.  I'll be
researching this new offering and if the price/performance pans out I'll
buy a license.  What I don't get about all the complaints is, this is an
option.  You don't have to add it unless you want it.  Moving to the
suite was the same.  When Imail tried to force us to upgrade to their
suite they lost my business.  I don't see the same thing happening here.

Dan

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
David Barker
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:40 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Don,

"in this case tells its most active customers that they should
effectively refrain from discussing a subject" 

Let me reiterate just for those who may have missed my earlier post.

Be reminded that the board is designed for comments on performance,
function, features of our software. If you have any questions or would
like to speak to someone about the Service Provider Program please call
or email:

Arik[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina[EMAIL PROTECTED]


I have communicated our intention to the lists and what seems to have
happened is that the majority of the posts have been negative. I am
surprised that only a handful of people have taken up our offer to
discuss this with us but rather post to the boards how this is such a
bad decision on our part without knowing the facts. If as Service
Providers you are losing money, clearly something needs to change. It is
hard for me to accept that the reason Service Providers are not making
money is because of Declude. 

We have not finalized our program yet and are looking for some
constructive feedback from our Service Providers in order to make this a
successful program, that will benefit both Declude and you.

David B
www.declude.com
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don
Brown
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:15 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

A friend of mine was one of the original founders of Bridge Data. They
were the first folks to take the Wall Street Ticker and resell it using
DEC PDP 1170, 1134, 1144, etc., to ADP, Traders, Brokerages and others.

Bridge owned SAVVIS and some other related entities and they were a
publicly traded company. During that time, not many years ago, I saw a
long article in a St. Louis business journal, where the CEO quoted
similar numbers which were also projected by some 3rd Party consultancy
Group. He added his own forecast about increases in head count and
revenue. He was a well educated and bright individual and he wasn't a
pup, when it came to running a company.  He had tenure and a track
record.

Less than a year after the date of the article, Bridge filed for
Bankruptcy.
You'll note I didn't say "bankruptcy protection." In contrast, no amount
of protection could saved the enterprise.

There is a moral to this story.

Whenever a company doesn't listen to the customer, or in this case tells
its most active customers that they should effectively refrain from
discussing a subject, which the company itself made most topical, then I
can point to the foregoing and many other examples of what to expect in
the future.

Personally, I am disappointed in where I see Declude now and where I see
it going. The lack of good flowing communications to/from the customer
base about new releases, bug fixes, etc. and, particularly, the lack of
a properly orchestrated roll-out of this new product enhancement/add-on,
says that the organization is disjointed, disorganized and that major
changes are not well thought out and prepared for in advance, nor well
managed as brush fire on the back side.

The people expressing concerns, asking questions and wanting an audience
are your active customers.  Keep telling them to go away and they will.

How many times is Declude going to kick itself in the chins with steel
toed combat boots before someone there gets it?

Thanks,


Tuesday, July 18, 2006, 4:19:51 PM, David Barker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
DB> Just as a side note. I have provided the contact information if you 
DB> have any further questions about the upcoming program, please be 
DB> reminded that the board is designed for comments on performance, 
DB> function, features of our software, not Declude's strategy of 
DB> marketing
& sales programs.

DB> Thanks
DB> David B
DB> www.declude.com

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
DB> David Barker
DB> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:09 PM
DB> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
DB> Sub

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Matt


David Barker wrote:


I did not say that Postini offered a poor service it was a comment from
Matt. 

Actually, that was a private comment from and old conversation with me, 
and I think the point was missed.  Postini is the McDonalds of the spam 
blocking business.  It's edible, it even tastes somewhat good, but it's 
not a porterhouse steak.  A few years ago Postini linked to a PDF to a 
PC World article where they shared the Editor's choice with Brightmail 
(if I recall properly).  Their tested spam blocking rate was 80% for 
Postini and 85% for Brightmail.  Postini shared honors because of their 
better customer control panel.  It was beyond me how they could be 
boasting about such deplorable results.  At that time, I was at 99.5% 
spam block rates (and getting better), and my customers didn't have a 
control panel because they shouldn't need one.  My customers have me 
block their spam and viruses because I am the expert and I do a good 
job, not because of the control that I might give them.


Postini doesn't compete in terms of accuracy, they compete by way of 
brand recognition and having many resellers.  People don't use what they 
don't know, and you can clearly be tops in the business without having 
the best results.  This same model goes for other services such as 
hosting and Internet access.  The only way to operate successfully in 
the face of the shirts is to focus on results, relationships, and value 
added service.


Anyone can jump on board the Postini model and start reselling 
hamburgers...I will continue serving steaks.


Matt


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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

2006-07-19 Thread Nick Hayer





ahh like Razor?

-Nick

David Barker wrote:

  Darrell,

It is not a DNS test. Commtouch analyzes large volumes of Internet traffic
in real time. New spam and Malware outbreaks are identified as soon as they
emerge, and recorded in the Commtouch Detection Center. The Commtouch Engine
in Declude queries the Commtouch Detection Center and receives a message
classification in real-time. The result is instant protection from new
outbreaks.

David B
www.declude.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:32 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this works. 
Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc?

Darrell

Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude And
Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG
Integration, and Log Parsers.

- Original Message -
From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?


-David,

Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch or
something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable, but
I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it.

Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive"
pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.
Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms.

And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too.

- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


  
  
There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable
our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being
forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer
the
Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
(for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement
has
been established with Declude.

http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121

Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and
now
have to pay them some of your meager profits?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"



  -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
Gary Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about
  

Declude 4.3?


  I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to
know
  

what I'm


  getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.

The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are
especially
  

confusing.


  https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205

Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the restrictions?
  

Based on my


  reading of the Restrictions, nobody who uses Declude will ever be able
to
  

use


  Commtouch.  If I am misreading this, would someone please explain it
to
  

me?


  Gary

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread John Olden

Gary Steiner wrote:

If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing list who is
not a service provider, please raise your hand.

Standing with both hands raised. We are a local government entity. AKA "Cheap"
We can't even afford to put a staff member on scraping the bottom of the barrel. ;)

As a side note, I am finding these types of conversations interesting. I'd vote
"no" for a separate list for Service Providers to converse on this issue.
Anything that affects pricing and Declude's future business model interests me.

As an outside observer, I can understand the outrage at the profit sharing issue but I
believe in the long run, the dollars will make the displeasure known. The majority will
not agree to that structure and not use this "add-in."
Thus Declude/Commtouch will not make money on it. I agree that Declude should focus
on making the product better (fixing) and making it's money that way rather than
spending time & resources forming some kind of business partnership with a new
(to Declude users) company. I like the Firefox strategy. Make a good program, allow
people to add things to it, find out what add-in most people like, integrate that
into the next version.

I use Imail as a negative example. They made they system a "suite" of stuff to justify a
huge pricing increase. We hat to quickly upgrade at the due to security concerns but never used
anything in the suite beyond the Imail server. People are moving over to SmarterMail. fProt and
Declude appear to be moving in that direction too. :( Most of us probably chose Imail, Declude,
fProt over their larger competitors because they were stripped down "get 'er done"
applications. What does it do and how well does it do it.
--
John Olden - Systems Administrator
Champaign Park District

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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Paul Navarre

> A service provider program would be an interesting topic for discussion.
> And probably this list is fine as all the active people appear to be

I agree.
 
> And fear that it will involve more expense as opposed to more revenues.
> If
> it genuinely involved more revenue then I am all for sharing it.

Indeed.

>From where I sit I see zero inclination on the part of my customers to spend
more on "commodity" services relating to e-mail. It would need to be a
revolutionary enhancement to service *and* this additional benefit would
need to be immediately understood by my clients to have any chance of
increasing revenues.

I am *far* more interested in reducing costs (open source for example) than
trying to ask my clients for more money. 

Having said that, I always try to keep an open mind and I will be very
interested to hear more regardless of whether I participate.

Paul Navarre



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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

2006-07-19 Thread tical

Is this how the AV part of the program works and will it run when the other
AV scanners run or is it only run once and then identified as either spam or
a virus? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
Barker
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:11 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Darrell,

It is not a DNS test. Commtouch analyzes large volumes of Internet traffic
in real time. New spam and Malware outbreaks are identified as soon as they
emerge, and recorded in the Commtouch Detection Center. The Commtouch Engine
in Declude queries the Commtouch Detection Center and receives a message
classification in real-time. The result is instant protection from new
outbreaks.

David B
www.declude.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:32 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this works. 
Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc?

Darrell

Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude And
Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG
Integration, and Log Parsers.

- Original Message -
From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?


-David,

Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch or
something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable, but
I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it.

Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive"
pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.
Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms.

And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too.

- Original Message -
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
> to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
> understand the licensing restrictions.
>
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
> for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
>
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable
> our
> legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
> advantage
> of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being
> forced
> onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
> increase
> revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
> Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
> include CommTouch.
>
> David B
> www.declude.com
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
>
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer
> the
> Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
> unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
> (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
> application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
> acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
> other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
> and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement
> has
> been established with Declude.
>
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
>
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and
> now
> have to pay them some of your meager profits?
>
> John T
> eServices For You
>
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>> Gary Steiner
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
>> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
>> Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>>
>> I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about
> Declude 4.3?
>> I see that its downloadable in my account, but it wo

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

David, 

Are components of the message hashed and some type of hash is sent to 
CommTouch for analysis? 

What ports/protocol does it communicate with CommTouch back on? 

How does one handle false positives? through Declude or directly to 
CommTouch? 

Is there a mechanism that if false positive is detected to do a what we call 
when using sniffer a rule panic? 

Is there a trial? 

Darrell 

David Barker writes: 

Darrell, 


It is not a DNS test. Commtouch analyzes large volumes of Internet traffic
in real time. New spam and Malware outbreaks are identified as soon as 
emerge, and recorded in the Commtouch Detection Center. The Commtouch 
in Declude queries the Commtouch Detection Center and receives a message

classification in real-time. The result is instant protection from new
outbreaks. 


David B
www.declude.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:32 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ? 

Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this works. 
Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc? 


Darrell

Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude And
Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG
Integration, and Log Parsers. 


- Original Message -
From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ? 



-David, 


Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch or
something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable, but
I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it. 


Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive"
pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.
Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms. 

And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too. 

- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 




There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions. 


Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component. 


However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable
our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being
forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
include CommTouch. 


David B
www.declude.com 




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement: 


3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer
the
Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
(for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement
has
been established with Declude. 

http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121 


Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and
now
have to pay them some of your meager profits? 


John T
eServices For You 

"Seek, and ye shall find!" 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Gary Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 


I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about

Declude 4.3?

I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to
know

what I'm
getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff. 


The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are
especially

confusing.


https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205 


Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Harry Vanderzand

A service provider program would be an interesting topic for discussion.
And probably this list is fine as all the active people appear to be
interested.

Personally I am curious about ideas regarding this that everyone has.

And fear that it will involve more expense as opposed to more revenues.  If
it genuinely involved more revenue then I am all for sharing it.  It is just
that I have yet to see an honest program out there.  

That does not mean that Declude cannot do it however.  So I am curious

Harry Vanderzand 
inTown Internet & Computer Services 
519-741-1222


 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of David Barker
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:06 AM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Robert,
> 
> I did not say that Postini offered a poor service it was a 
> comment from Matt. My point was that the market is huge and 
> Declude with our existing customer base can be successful 
> with a very very small % of this market. The difference is 
> how we go about obtaining our share, this is part of the idea 
> behind the Service Provider Program. 
> 
> What I would like to see is some postive ideas as a community 
> on how this can best be done.
> 
> Perhaps, I should set up a separate list for this discussion ?
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of Robert E. Spivack
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:08 AM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Correction David B, Postini offers a great product, it's 
> Declude with the product that is questionable.
> 
> We switched most of our services over to Postini and have 
> been glad to avoid the bugs, crashes, and huge price hikes of 
> Declude.  In comparison, as our Postini volume grows, our 
> costs are actually going down.
> 
> Managed services is growing, but managed spam blocking and av 
> is actually stagnent.  Postini and others (choose your 
> favorite leader) already have most the market.  Just ask most 
> end-users --- it no longer is a question of "do you have av 
> or spam blocking protection" - most everyone does.  It's a 
> tougher issue of how well does it work  - "good enough" is 
> unfortunately the answer from many people and "not good 
> enough but I won't pay a dime more for something better" is 
> the answer from the rest.
> 
> As evidenced by Postini, Microsoft, and other activity, the 
> CAGR growth is coming from enhanced services such as 
> archiving (SOX compliance), encryption, collaboration, and 
> other newer value-added email services.
> 
> As mentioned by others, av scanning and spam blocking is commoditized.
> 
> Sure, that doesn't mean there will not continue to be 
> incremental technology improvements and some smaller vendors 
> will eek out some growth continuing to offer slightly better 
> technical solutions, but in the overall market, the chance 
> for a big win by new players in av/spam blocking services is past.
> 
> "game over" guys - time to come up with some new tricks 
> besides trying to squeeze your best advocates for more money.
> 
> F-Prot, Declude, &  who next will be hurting and trying 
> to survive by raising prices?  In a commodity market with 
> many suppliers, that's not a winning strategy.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of David Barker
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:09 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Matt,
> 
> Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this 
> industry, CAGR forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While 
> the industry may seem commoditized, you have pointed out  
> that businesses like Postini offer a poor product but are 
> projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there is 
> plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with 
> Service Providers to empower them to offer premium services 
> and help market and promote those services. This is the idea 
> behind our Service Provider Program. I don't think we're 
> being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the 
> small guys compete against the big guys.  
> 
> If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone 
> about the program please call or email:
> 
> Arik  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Kristina  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: [EMAIL

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Standing by... 

Darrell 

David Barker writes: 

Darrell, 

I am getting there :) 

David  


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:00 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 

Be reminded that the board is designed for comments on performance, 
function, features of our software. If you have any questions or would 
>


David,  

I have asked as well as submitted a inquiry to support and others have asked 



"Is their a CommTouch trial"
"How does it work" etc  


and none of those posts have been repsonded to.  Can you please take a
moment and answer a question that is within the scope of this "forumn".  

Darrell 



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http://www.mail-archive.com. 

 


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---
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mxGuard, and ORF.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI 
integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers.



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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Darrell,

It is not a DNS test. Commtouch analyzes large volumes of Internet traffic
in real time. New spam and Malware outbreaks are identified as soon as they
emerge, and recorded in the Commtouch Detection Center. The Commtouch Engine
in Declude queries the Commtouch Detection Center and receives a message
classification in real-time. The result is instant protection from new
outbreaks.

David B
www.declude.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:32 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this works. 
Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc?

Darrell

Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude And
Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG
Integration, and Log Parsers.

- Original Message -
From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?


-David,

Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch or
something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable, but
I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it.

Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive"
pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.
Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms.

And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too.

- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
> to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
> understand the licensing restrictions.
>
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
> for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
>
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable
> our
> legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
> advantage
> of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being
> forced
> onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
> increase
> revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
> Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
> include CommTouch.
>
> David B
> www.declude.com
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
>
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer
> the
> Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
> unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
> (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
> application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
> acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
> other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
> and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement
> has
> been established with Declude.
>
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
>
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and
> now
> have to pay them some of your meager profits?
>
> John T
> eServices For You
>
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>> Gary Steiner
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
>> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
>> Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>>
>> I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about
> Declude 4.3?
>> I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to
>> know
> what I'm
>> getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.
>>
>> The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are
>> especially
> confusing.
>>
>> https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205
>>
>> Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the restrictions

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Darrell,

I am getting there :)

David 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:00 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

> Be reminded that the board is designed for comments on performance, 
> function, features of our software. If you have any questions or would 
> >

David, 

I have asked as well as submitted a inquiry to support and others have asked


"Is their a CommTouch trial"
"How does it work" etc 

and none of those posts have been repsonded to.  Can you please take a
moment and answer a question that is within the scope of this "forumn". 

Darrell


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Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at
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---
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at http://www.mail-archive.com.

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Robert,

I did not say that Postini offered a poor service it was a comment from
Matt. My point was that the market is huge and Declude with our existing
customer base can be successful with a very very small % of this market. The
difference is how we go about obtaining our share, this is part of the idea
behind the Service Provider Program. 

What I would like to see is some postive ideas as a community on how this
can best be done.

Perhaps, I should set up a separate list for this discussion ?

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert
E. Spivack
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:08 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Correction David B, Postini offers a great product, it's Declude with the
product that is questionable.

We switched most of our services over to Postini and have been glad to avoid
the bugs, crashes, and huge price hikes of Declude.  In comparison, as our
Postini volume grows, our costs are actually going down.

Managed services is growing, but managed spam blocking and av is actually
stagnent.  Postini and others (choose your favorite leader) already have
most the market.  Just ask most end-users --- it no longer is a question of
"do you have av or spam blocking protection" - most everyone does.  It's a
tougher issue of how well does it work  - "good enough" is unfortunately the
answer from many people and "not good enough but I won't pay a dime more for
something better" is the answer from the rest.

As evidenced by Postini, Microsoft, and other activity, the CAGR growth is
coming from enhanced services such as archiving (SOX compliance),
encryption, collaboration, and other newer value-added email services.

As mentioned by others, av scanning and spam blocking is commoditized.

Sure, that doesn't mean there will not continue to be incremental technology
improvements and some smaller vendors will eek out some growth continuing to
offer slightly better technical solutions, but in the overall market, the
chance for a big win by new players in av/spam blocking services is past.

"game over" guys - time to come up with some new tricks besides trying to
squeeze your best advocates for more money.

F-Prot, Declude, &  who next will be hurting and trying to survive by
raising prices?  In a commodity market with many suppliers, that's not a
winning strategy.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
Barker
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:09 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Matt,

Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, CAGR
forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may seem
commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like Postini offer a
poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there
is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with Service Providers
to empower them to offer premium services and help market and promote those
services. This is the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't
think we're being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the
small guys compete against the big guys.  

If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about the
program please call or email:

Arik[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina[EMAIL PROTECTED]

David B
www.declude.com




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:07 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any
revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are Declude
customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few that offer a
gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the astounding greed
that software companies have presented us with in the last 5 years combined
with competitive pressures of cheap or even free services has commoditized
much of what we are doing.

I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside of
reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share is with
those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off of doing
what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood, sweat and
tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

Matt



David Barker wrote: 

There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions
for

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


Be reminded that the board is designed for comments on performance,
function, features of our software. If you have any questions or would > 


David, 

I have asked as well as submitted a inquiry to support and others have asked 


"Is their a CommTouch trial"
"How does it work" etc 

and none of those posts have been repsonded to.  Can you please take a 
moment and answer a question that is within the scope of this "forumn". 


Darrell


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at http://www.mail-archive.com.

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Glenn,

Many of the bugs that are in 1.81 have been fixed with further releases, the
reason you do not see the bugs is that they are not obvious under the single
application, ie. Declude.exe when it crashes it just drops the message back
in the spool whereas with the service these messages are moved to the
\review folder.

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn
Zajicek
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:53 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Exactly.  I'm still running Declude Version 1.81.  *Every* time I've almost
gone for an update/upgrade, there comes a surge of "issues" reported on this
list.  I simply DO NOT have time to deal with trying to figure out which
reported bugs may or may not affect me, watching for / SEARCHING for the
fixes.  There's also the issue of sheer confusion on what Version IS the
latest one with the FEWEST bugs, what ARE those bugs, and how an upgrade
will impact (read: break) my working configuration with Imail 7.15 (I can't
upgrade Imail because that's one of the items for which I no longer can
afford support/maintenance).


-- Original Message --
From: "Dave Beckstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Date:  Wed, 19 Jul 2006 00:23:01 -0500

>
>
>What irks me more is not having things fixed in the existing Declude, 
>such as the broken image spam problem.  I'd like to see Declude fix 
>their base product before spending time enhancing it.  I'm not griping 
>-- just making an observation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---
>This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To 
>unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type 
>"unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at 
>http://www.mail-archive.com.
>
>
 





Sent via the WebMail system at wcnet.net


 
   


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

It's not a big issue, it is something that occurred on very rare occasions.
It is really minor.

David 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Harry
Vanderzand
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:35 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Thanks David

Is the global variable correction important enough to upgrade from 4.2.20?

Harry Vanderzand
inTown Internet & Computer Services
519-741-1222


 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> David Barker
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:24 AM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Gary,
> 
> 4.3 Release notes: Added CT and a Global variable being initialized 
> more than once has been corrected.
> 
> You are correct in your statement, if you do not want to join our 
> Service Provide Program you can choose not too participate.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Gary Steiner
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 7:21 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Basically you are telling me to ignore the Add Commtouch part of your 
> web page that shows up when I log in to my account.
> 
> What I find particularly amusing is the line "Restrictions apply to 
> service providers."  If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing 
> list who is not a service provider, please raise your hand.
> 
> Isn't it generally a good idea to have your product's pricing defined 
> before you introduce the product?  I'm sure that everyone here reading 
> the list is extremely curious as to what the revenue share program 
> really is, and when it does come out, unless you hear exclamations of 
> "What a Bargain"
> coming off this list there won't be many of us joining that program.
> 
> Other than the Commtouch add-on, are there any other features or 
> reasons to upgrade to 4.3?
> 
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:03 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > Gary,
> > 
> > 1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to
> Declude will be
> > in violation of CommTouch's Terms of service.
> > 
> > 2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection 
> > and additional spam identifying technology such as
> Recurrent Pattern
> > Detection Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a 
> > leading technology in email outbreak detection.
> > 
> > 3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and 
> > will provide the details to this when it is ready.
> > 
> > David B
> > www.declude.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> > Gary Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy
> customer use
> > Commtouch?
> > 
> > Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an
> add-on, what
> > are the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude 
> > alone does not?
> > 
> > And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was 
> > spelled out somewhere.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  Original Message 
> > > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> > > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > > 
> > > There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service
> Providers
> > > we had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service
> Providers After 1
> > > June
> > > 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
> > > 
> > > Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no 
> > > restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in
> component.
> > > 
> > > However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to 
> > > enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before
> 1 June 06)
> > > to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share
> program, thi

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Don,

"in this case tells its most active customers that they should effectively
refrain from discussing a subject" 

Let me reiterate just for those who may have missed my earlier post.

Be reminded that the board is designed for comments on performance,
function, features of our software. If you have any questions or would like
to speak to someone about the Service Provider Program please call or email:

Arik[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina[EMAIL PROTECTED]


I have communicated our intention to the lists and what seems to have
happened is that the majority of the posts have been negative. I am
surprised that only a handful of people have taken up our offer to discuss
this with us but rather post to the boards how this is such a bad decision
on our part without knowing the facts. If as Service Providers you are
losing money, clearly something needs to change. It is hard for me to accept
that the reason Service Providers are not making money is because of
Declude. 

We have not finalized our program yet and are looking for some constructive
feedback from our Service Providers in order to make this a successful
program, that will benefit both Declude and you.

David B
www.declude.com
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don
Brown
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:15 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

A friend of mine was one of the original founders of Bridge Data. They were
the first folks to take the Wall Street Ticker and resell it using DEC PDP
1170, 1134, 1144, etc., to ADP, Traders, Brokerages and others.

Bridge owned SAVVIS and some other related entities and they were a publicly
traded company. During that time, not many years ago, I saw a long article
in a St. Louis business journal, where the CEO quoted similar numbers which
were also projected by some 3rd Party consultancy Group. He added his own
forecast about increases in head count and revenue. He was a well educated
and bright individual and he wasn't a pup, when it came to running a
company.  He had tenure and a track record.

Less than a year after the date of the article, Bridge filed for Bankruptcy.
You'll note I didn't say "bankruptcy protection." In contrast, no amount of
protection could saved the enterprise.

There is a moral to this story.

Whenever a company doesn't listen to the customer, or in this case tells its
most active customers that they should effectively refrain from discussing a
subject, which the company itself made most topical, then I can point to the
foregoing and many other examples of what to expect in the future.

Personally, I am disappointed in where I see Declude now and where I see it
going. The lack of good flowing communications to/from the customer base
about new releases, bug fixes, etc. and, particularly, the lack of a
properly orchestrated roll-out of this new product enhancement/add-on, says
that the organization is disjointed, disorganized and that major changes are
not well thought out and prepared for in advance, nor well managed as brush
fire on the back side.

The people expressing concerns, asking questions and wanting an audience are
your active customers.  Keep telling them to go away and they will.

How many times is Declude going to kick itself in the chins with steel toed
combat boots before someone there gets it?

Thanks,


Tuesday, July 18, 2006, 4:19:51 PM, David Barker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
DB> Just as a side note. I have provided the contact information if you 
DB> have any further questions about the upcoming program, please be 
DB> reminded that the board is designed for comments on performance, 
DB> function, features of our software, not Declude's strategy of marketing
& sales programs.

DB> Thanks
DB> David B
DB> www.declude.com

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
DB> David Barker
DB> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:09 PM
DB> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
DB> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

DB> Matt,

DB> Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, 
DB> CAGR forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may 
DB> seem commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like 
DB> Postini offer a poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in 
DB> revenues. So I'd say there is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if 
DB> Declude works with Service Providers to empower them to offer 
DB> premium services and help market and promote those services. This is 
DB> the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't think we're 
DB> being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the small guys
compete against the big guys.

DB> If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about 
D

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Harry Vanderzand

Thanks David

Is the global variable correction important enough to upgrade from 4.2.20?

Harry Vanderzand 
inTown Internet & Computer Services 
519-741-1222


 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of David Barker
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:24 AM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Gary,
> 
> 4.3 Release notes: Added CT and a Global variable being 
> initialized more than once has been corrected.
> 
> You are correct in your statement, if you do not want to join 
> our Service Provide Program you can choose not too participate.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of Gary Steiner
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 7:21 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Basically you are telling me to ignore the Add Commtouch part 
> of your web page that shows up when I log in to my account.  
> 
> What I find particularly amusing is the line "Restrictions 
> apply to service providers."  If there is anyone subscribed 
> to this mailing list who is not a service provider, please 
> raise your hand.
> 
> Isn't it generally a good idea to have your product's pricing 
> defined before you introduce the product?  I'm sure that 
> everyone here reading the list is extremely curious as to 
> what the revenue share program really is, and when it does 
> come out, unless you hear exclamations of "What a Bargain" 
> coming off this list there won't be many of us joining that program.
> 
> Other than the Commtouch add-on, are there any other features 
> or reasons to upgrade to 4.3?
> 
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:03 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > Gary,
> > 
> > 1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to 
> Declude will be 
> > in violation of CommTouch's Terms of service.
> > 
> > 2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection 
> > and additional spam identifying technology such as 
> Recurrent Pattern 
> > Detection Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a 
> > leading technology in email outbreak detection.
> > 
> > 3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and 
> > will provide the details to this when it is ready.
> > 
> > David B
> > www.declude.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> > Gary Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy 
> customer use 
> > Commtouch?
> > 
> > Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an 
> add-on, what 
> > are the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude 
> > alone does not?
> > 
> > And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was 
> > spelled out somewhere.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  Original Message 
> > > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> > > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > > 
> > > There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service 
> Providers 
> > > we had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service 
> Providers After 1 
> > > June
> > > 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
> > > 
> > > Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no 
> > > restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in 
> component.
> > > 
> > > However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to 
> > > enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 
> 1 June 06) 
> > > to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share 
> program, this 
> > > program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an 
> > > opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your 
> business, 
> > > by providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which 
> > > would be independent of Imail/SmarterMai

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Gary,

4.3 Release notes: Added CT and a Global variable being initialized more
than once has been corrected.

You are correct in your statement, if you do not want to join our Service
Provide Program you can choose not too participate.

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary
Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 7:21 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Basically you are telling me to ignore the Add Commtouch part of your web
page that shows up when I log in to my account.  

What I find particularly amusing is the line "Restrictions apply to service
providers."  If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing list who is not a
service provider, please raise your hand.

Isn't it generally a good idea to have your product's pricing defined before
you introduce the product?  I'm sure that everyone here reading the list is
extremely curious as to what the revenue share program really is, and when
it does come out, unless you hear exclamations of "What a Bargain" coming
off this list there won't be many of us joining that program.

Other than the Commtouch add-on, are there any other features or reasons to
upgrade to 4.3?



 Original Message 
> From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:03 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Gary,
> 
> 1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to Declude will be 
> in violation of CommTouch's Terms of service.
> 
> 2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection 
> and additional spam identifying technology such as Recurrent Pattern 
> Detection Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a 
> leading technology in email outbreak detection.
> 
> 3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and 
> will provide the details to this when it is ready.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Gary Steiner
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use 
> Commtouch?
> 
> Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on, what 
> are the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude 
> alone does not?
> 
> And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was 
> spelled out somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message 
> > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers 
> > we had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 
> > June
> > 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
> > 
> > Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no 
> > restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
> > 
> > However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to 
> > enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) 
> > to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this 
> > program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an 
> > opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business, 
> > by providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which 
> > would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include CommTouch.
> > 
> > David B
> > www.declude.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> > John T
> > (Lists)
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
> > 
> > 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise 
> > transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User 
> > License Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, 
> > Inc. for such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed 
> > Program into another application and then distribute such to third 
> > parties unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.).
> > As of June 1, 2

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Don Brown

If we could get away with it, we wouldn't offer any e-mail service.
There is more tech support overhead and other costs with e-mail than
everything else combined.  Unfortunately, not offering e-mail and
Spam/Virus protection is not an option, from a competitive
stand-point.


Tuesday, July 18, 2006, 10:22:00 PM, Kevin Bilbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
KB>   
KB>  
KB> Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a
KB> lost leader/not a revenue builder.
KB>  
KB>  
KB>  
KB> If it  does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering 
spam/virus  protection?
KB>  
KB>  
KB>  
KB>  
KB>  
KB>  
KB>  
KB> Kevin  Bilbee

KB>   
KB> ---
KB> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To
KB> unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
KB> type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
KB> at http://www.mail-archive.com. 



Don Brown - Dallas, Texas USA Internet Concepts, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.inetconcepts.net
(972) 788-2364Fax: (972) 788-5049




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type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Title: Message

Kevin,
Mainly because in order to get other types of
business that may bring revenue (hosting, etc) this type of service is
expected. Look at any ISP/hosting provider that is offering $5.00 a month
hosting plans this is what everyone competes with.
Could you imagine yourself (consumer or small
business) signing up with a hosting provider and them not handling your email or
even better not virus scanning it? Even with yahoo/gmail you get free spam
filtering and virus scanning.
Darrell
Check
out http://www.invariantsystems.com for
utilities for Declude And Imail. IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring,
SURBL/URI integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers.

- Original Message -
From:
Kevin Bilbee
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com

Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:22
PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude
4.3

Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a
lost leader/not a revenue builder.
If
it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus
protection?
Kevin Bilbee---This E-mail came from the
Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype
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http://www.mail-archive.com.

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

Also, to piggy back on this - we would like to know exactly how this works. 
Is something downloaded to your system is it DNS based etc?

Darrell

Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude And 
Imail.  IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG 
Integration, and Log Parsers.

- Original Message - 
From: "Scott Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?


-David,

Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch or
something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable, but
I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it.

Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive"
pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.
Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms.

And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too.

- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
> to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
> understand the licensing restrictions.
>
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
> for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
>
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable
> our
> legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
> advantage
> of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being
> forced
> onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
> increase
> revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
> Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
> include CommTouch.
>
> David B
> www.declude.com
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
>
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer
> the
> Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
> unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
> (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
> application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
> acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
> other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
> and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement
> has
> been established with Declude.
>
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
>
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and
> now
> have to pay them some of your meager profits?
>
> John T
> eServices For You
>
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>> Gary Steiner
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
>> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
>> Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>>
>> I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about
> Declude 4.3?
>> I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to
>> know
> what I'm
>> getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.
>>
>> The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are
>> especially
> confusing.
>>
>> https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205
>>
>> Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the restrictions?
> Based on my
>> reading of the Restrictions, nobody who uses Declude will ever be able
>> to
> use
>> Commtouch.  If I am misreading this, would someone please explain it
>> to
> me?
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To
>> unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type
>> "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com.
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To unsubscribe,
>

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Bonno Bloksma


Hi Gary,

What I find particularly amusing is the line "Restrictions apply to 
service providers."
If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing list who is not a service 
provider,

please raise your hand.


Hand !!!

We are a school.


Met vriendelijke groet,
Bonno Bloksma
hoofd systeembeheer

tio hogeschool hotelmanagement en toerisme
julianalaan 9 / 7553 ab hengelo
netherlands
t +31 74 255 06 10 / f +31 74 255 06 16
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  / www.tio.nl 




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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-19 Thread Robert E. Spivack

Correction David B, Postini offers a great product, it's Declude with the
product that is questionable.

We switched most of our services over to Postini and have been glad to avoid
the bugs, crashes, and huge price hikes of Declude.  In comparison, as our
Postini volume grows, our costs are actually going down.

Managed services is growing, but managed spam blocking and av is actually
stagnent.  Postini and others (choose your favorite leader) already have
most the market.  Just ask most end-users --- it no longer is a question of
"do you have av or spam blocking protection" - most everyone does.  It's a
tougher issue of how well does it work  - "good enough" is unfortunately the
answer from many people and "not good enough but I won't pay a dime more for
something better" is the answer from the rest.

As evidenced by Postini, Microsoft, and other activity, the CAGR growth is
coming from enhanced services such as archiving (SOX compliance),
encryption, collaboration, and other newer value-added email services.

As mentioned by others, av scanning and spam blocking is commoditized.

Sure, that doesn't mean there will not continue to be incremental technology
improvements and some smaller vendors will eek out some growth continuing to
offer slightly better technical solutions, but in the overall market, the
chance for a big win by new players in av/spam blocking services is past.

"game over" guys - time to come up with some new tricks besides trying to
squeeze your best advocates for more money.

F-Prot, Declude, &  who next will be hurting and trying to survive by
raising prices?  In a commodity market with many suppliers, that's not a
winning strategy.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
Barker
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:09 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Matt,

Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, CAGR
forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may seem
commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like Postini offer a
poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there
is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with Service Providers
to empower them to offer premium services and help market and promote those
services. This is the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't
think we're being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the
small guys compete against the big guys.  

If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about the
program please call or email:

Arik[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina[EMAIL PROTECTED]

David B
www.declude.com




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:07 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any
revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are Declude
customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few that offer a
gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the astounding greed
that software companies have presented us with in the last 5 years combined
with competitive pressures of cheap or even free services has commoditized
much of what we are doing.

I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside of
reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share is with
those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off of doing
what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood, sweat and
tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

Matt



David Barker wrote: 

There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
enable our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not
being forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like
the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and
will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECT

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread netsolution webmaster





1) as we know everyone can scan for viruses and for spam locally on
their pc
2) so we tell them that when they do it on the server they save
bandwidth and cost plus they don't have to waste time on setting it up
locally and maintain it
3) so we charge a (small) per user fee per month for virus & spam
protection
4) we move all spam to a special "spam" pop account so the customer
sees how much gets filtered plus he has a change to review spam mail
4) we offer a 14 day trial for the service - after this everyone
subscribes to it...

The small fee should at least cover the cost of av/spam software
involved, so when prices go up we look for other products that can do
the same thing, or if we are satisfied with how it works (with spam) we
don't renew the service agreement and stay at the current version

But generally hosting business was more fun 5-6 years ago...

Andrew

Dave Beckstrom schrieb:

  Email only makes money for spammers.  Declude and the other mail tools are
an expense not a revenue generator.  Adding CommTouch just adds to overhead
without generating any revenue. 

I'm glad its an option and doesn't affect the rest of Declude.  Declude is
already at the upper limit of what we're willing to spend on a tool.

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David
Barker
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:51 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Gary,

1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to Declude will be in
violation of CommTouch's Terms of service.

2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection and
additional spam identifying technology such as Recurrent Pattern Detection
Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a leading

  
  technology
  
  
in email outbreak detection.

3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and will
provide the details to this when it is ready.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Gary
Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use
Commtouch?

Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on, what are
the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude alone does
not?

And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was spelled
out somewhere.



 Original Message 


  From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we
had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June
06) understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06)
to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this
program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an
opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business, by
providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which would be
independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User
License Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude,
Inc. for such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed
Program into another application and then distribute such to third
parties unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.).
As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and other service providers are not
permitted to use Declude software to clean and forward mail to
customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has been established
  

with Declude.


  http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121

Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software
and now have to pay them some of your meager profits?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
Gary Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Glenn Zajicek

Exactly.  I'm still running Declude Version 1.81.  *Every* time I've almost 
gone for an update/upgrade, there comes a surge of "issues" reported on this 
list.  I simply DO NOT have time to deal with trying to figure out which 
reported bugs may or may not affect me, watching for / SEARCHING for the fixes. 
 There's also the issue of sheer confusion on what Version IS the latest one 
with the FEWEST bugs, what ARE those bugs, and how an upgrade will impact 
(read: break) my working configuration with Imail 7.15 (I can't upgrade Imail 
because that's one of the items for which I no longer can afford 
support/maintenance).


-- Original Message --
From: "Dave Beckstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Date:  Wed, 19 Jul 2006 00:23:01 -0500

>
>
>What irks me more is not having things fixed in the existing Declude, such
>as the broken image spam problem.  I'd like to see Declude fix their base
>product before spending time enhancing it.  I'm not griping -- just making
>an observation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---
>This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To
>unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
>type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
>at http://www.mail-archive.com.
>
>
 





Sent via the WebMail system at wcnet.net


 
   


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Dave Beckstrom

> 
> With that said, as an add-on in the same regard as things like Sniffer,
> CommTouch might be a good solution (if it performs well) for those that
> can pay the $195/year, however it still irks me that after two years and
> lots of promises, these things are being added at an extra expense and
> not available to people like me under reasonable terms.
> 
> Matt
> 


What irks me more is not having things fixed in the existing Declude, such
as the broken image spam problem.  I'd like to see Declude fix their base
product before spending time enhancing it.  I'm not griping -- just making
an observation.







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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Matt

I agree with this.  I was also once a hosting provider which was 
ancillary to a business that I used to operate which required me to 
offer hosting.  I added E-mail because I was sick of dealing with my 
customer's ISP's for their E-mail problems (lost passwords, poorly 
performing services, bad technical support, etc.).  Then after several 
years of doing E-mail I ran into a problem where my customers were 
frequently getting infected by viruses and their virus infections were 
preventing them from exploiting the benefits of their Web presence...so 
I purchased Declude.  Spam wasn't much of an issue then.  Then a year 
later spam started becoming more of an issue and I started tweaking my 
Declude configs to try to block more, and I started running into the 
issues of false positives, plus although I was blocking more, the 
increase in volume was causing more to leak so my customers were 
complaining more and more.  I bared down and eventually became an 
expert, and I decided then that instead of this being a cost to me (no 
one paid me for E-mail, just Web hosting and other services), I decided 
to turn it into a business.


My largest source of revenue from this business just so happens to be 
from another Declude user who operates a Web hosting company.  He was in 
the same place as I was, but he didn't have the patience or 
understanding to fix all of his issues, and I showed him how we could 
both profit from upselling the service and I fixed his false positive 
issues and made his server more manageable to boot.  He still uses 
Declude and it is still free for his customers (who generally don't even 
know it is there), but many customers do want more and are willing to 
pay.  Without offering this alternative, he would lose not just the 
revenue from MailPure that he shares, but also some of the customers 
that were unsatisfied with his standard Declude protection.


I have four hosting providers that I work with now that resell my 
service, and two of those are current Declude customers.  One tells me 
that he picks up customers because other customers tell their friends to 
come to his service because they have MailPure.  Many of these guys are 
technically capable of doing better on their own, but they got into the 
business to host and or design Web sites and not to deal with spam and 
viruses just like me, and it is not easy to turn a profit from an 
expensive ancillary service offering without making a major change in 
focus (or skipping all of that and partnering with someone like me).


CommTouch has zero possibility of generating revenue for businesses like 
my own even though I profit from offering the service unlike most 
service providers.  This is why a revenue share with Declude is out of 
the question.  The suggestions are that CommTouch will make experts out 
of novices in this game and allow some to become spam blocking 
businesses by simply adding better detection, but spam blocking 
businesses don't come packaged for people to plug-n-play.  For most, 
spam and virus blocking will remain a cost center.  Approaching this 
market with a revenue share licensing for a software add-on is 
overwhelming evidence of not understanding the market.


With that said, as an add-on in the same regard as things like Sniffer, 
CommTouch might be a good solution (if it performs well) for those that 
can pay the $195/year, however it still irks me that after two years and 
lots of promises, these things are being added at an extra expense and 
not available to people like me under reasonable terms.


Matt





Paul Navarre wrote:


***
Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a lost
leader/not a revenue builder.

If it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus
protection?
***

Is this a serious question?

If you don't offer spam and virus filtering, you won't have any customers.
In most markets the local competition offers it for free. The national
competition certainly does (yahoo, google, earthlink etc).

Many of us are fighting against low-priced inferior competition. The problem
is that the average customer doesn't know that they are inferior. They *do*
know how much they charge, and if they offer spam/virus protection and you
don't it doesn't matter how poor the other guy's service is. They will
leave. Sure, they will find out later how much the other guys suck, but how
much time/effort/money will it cost to get them back? Chances are they'll
try the next cut rate place instead of coming back to us anyway.

Paul Navarre



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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Glenn Zajicek

1.  Honestly, I don't know.

1b.  The mail server would literally be overwhelmed and crash without it.

1c.  Perhaps that's not a bad idea.  That'd be one less target for the spammers 
to hit.

2.  A significant number of our users don't use our mail.  Many of those that 
don't aren't even aware they HAVE mail service, they use Yahoo or Hotmail or 
whatever.  That's the only e-mail service they know.

2b.  Those that do use the mail, a significant number of them aren't aware we 
have spam/virus protection.

2c.  Many of those who use the mail, and either are or are not aware of the 
spam protection, are completely oblivious to how much spam there really is.  
They may get a handful of spams during a storm and call fussing about it.  If 
they only knew ...

2d.  Those who are aware of the protection, certainly wouldn't pay extra for 
it.  They bitch already about the monthly rate, which is significantly higher 
than the $9.95 competition.  Internet access nowadays is a commodity, not 
something for which one seeks out a quality service ...



-- Original Message --
From: "Kevin Bilbee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Date:  Tue, 18 Jul 2006 20:22:00 -0700

>Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a lost
>leader/not a revenue builder.
> 
>If it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus
>protection?
> 
> 
> 
>Kevin Bilbee
>
>
>---
>This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To
>unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
>type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
>at http://www.mail-archive.com.
>
 





Sent via the WebMail system at wcnet.net


 
   


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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Paul Navarre

***
Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a lost
leader/not a revenue builder.
 
If it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus
protection?
***

Is this a serious question?

If you don't offer spam and virus filtering, you won't have any customers.
In most markets the local competition offers it for free. The national
competition certainly does (yahoo, google, earthlink etc).

Many of us are fighting against low-priced inferior competition. The problem
is that the average customer doesn't know that they are inferior. They *do*
know how much they charge, and if they offer spam/virus protection and you
don't it doesn't matter how poor the other guy's service is. They will
leave. Sure, they will find out later how much the other guys suck, but how
much time/effort/money will it cost to get them back? Chances are they'll
try the next cut rate place instead of coming back to us anyway.

Paul Navarre



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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Dave Beckstrom

Email only makes money for spammers.  Declude and the other mail tools are
an expense not a revenue generator.  Adding CommTouch just adds to overhead
without generating any revenue. 

I'm glad its an option and doesn't affect the rest of Declude.  Declude is
already at the upper limit of what we're willing to spend on a tool.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
> Barker
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:51 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Gary,
> 
> 1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to Declude will be in
> violation of CommTouch's Terms of service.
> 
> 2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection and
> additional spam identifying technology such as Recurrent Pattern Detection
> Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a leading
technology
> in email outbreak detection.
> 
> 3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and will
> provide the details to this when it is ready.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary
> Steiner
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use
> Commtouch?
> 
> Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on, what are
> the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude alone does
> not?
> 
> And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was spelled
> out somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ---- Original Message ----
> > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> > There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we
> > had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June
> > 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
> >
> > Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
> > restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
> >
> > However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
> > enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06)
> > to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this
> > program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an
> > opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business, by
> > providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which would be
> > independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include CommTouch.
> >
> > David B
> > www.declude.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> > John T
> > (Lists)
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> > I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
> >
> > 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
> > transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User
> > License Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude,
> > Inc. for such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed
> > Program into another application and then distribute such to third
> > parties unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.).
> > As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and other service providers are not
> > permitted to use Declude software to clean and forward mail to
> > customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has been established
> with Declude.
> >
> > http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
> >
> > Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software
> > and now have to pay them some of your meager profits?
> >
> > John T
> > eServices For You
> >
> > "Seek, and ye shall find!"
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> > > Gary Steiner
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
> > > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > > Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > >
> > > I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today
> > > a

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Kevin Bilbee

Title: Message



What 
exactly is protestion. let me see I think it shuld be protection!! Yea that is 
it, protection.
 
 
 
Kevin 
Bilbee

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin 
  BilbeeSent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 8:22 PMTo: 
  declude.junkmail@declude.comSubject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 
  4.3
  Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a 
  lost leader/not a revenue builder.
   
  If 
  it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus 
  protection?
   
   
   
  Kevin Bilbee---This E-mail came from the 
  Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives 
  can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. 

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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Kevin Bilbee

Title: Message



Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a 
lost leader/not a revenue builder.
 
If it 
does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus 
protection?
 
 
 
Kevin 
Bilbee

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Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Mike N




If E-mail with spam and virus protection is offered 
to our customers as a loss leader for an unrelated business, does this mean that 
CommTouch would pay us to use their product?  (Negative 
revenue).
 

  - Original Message - What 
  makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any revenue 
  to share?  

---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com.

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 - Commtouch trial ?

2006-07-18 Thread Scott Fisher


-David,

Just curious is there a free one-month test drive option for CommTouch or 
something similiar?
As one of those pesky non-ISP's the $195 a year is pretty reasonable, but 
I'd really like to test drive it before I buy it.


Not to be offensive, but I have no belief of the "100% no false positive" 
pitch and the "99.99+% spam catch rate" pitch.

Trust me I get many a phone call hyping those terms.

And I'll have to make that jump to Declude 4.x too.

- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3



There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable 
our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take 
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being 
forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you 
increase

revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer 
the

Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
(for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement 
has

been established with Declude.

http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121

Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and 
now

have to pay them some of your meager profits?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Gary Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about

Declude 4.3?

I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to
know

what I'm

getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.

The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are
especially

confusing.


https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205

Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the restrictions?

Based on my

reading of the Restrictions, nobody who uses Declude will ever be able
to

use

Commtouch.  If I am misreading this, would someone please explain it
to

me?


Gary





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unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type
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at http://www.mail-archive.com.






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type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
at http://www.mail-archive.com.

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Scott Fisher

Another hand raised. End User (business) here. Apparantly I missed the 
Exchange memo.

- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Steiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Basically you are telling me to ignore the Add Commtouch part of your web 
page that shows up when I log in to my account.

What I find particularly amusing is the line "Restrictions apply to service 
providers."  If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing list who is not a 
service provider, please raise your hand.

Isn't it generally a good idea to have your product's pricing defined before 
you introduce the product?  I'm sure that everyone here reading the list is 
extremely curious as to what the revenue share program really is, and when 
it does come out, unless you hear exclamations of "What a Bargain" coming 
off this list there won't be many of us joining that program.

Other than the Commtouch add-on, are there any other features or reasons to 
upgrade to 4.3?

 Original Message 

From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:03 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Gary,

1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to Declude will be in
violation of CommTouch's Terms of service.

2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection and
additional spam identifying technology such as Recurrent Pattern Detection
Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a leading 
technology

in email outbreak detection.

3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and will
provide the details to this when it is ready.

David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary
Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use
Commtouch?

Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on, what are
the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude alone does
not?

And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was spelled
out somewhere.

 Original Message 
> From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we
> had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June
> 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
>
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
> restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
>
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
> enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06)
> to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this
> program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an
> opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business, by
> providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which would be
> independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include CommTouch.
>
> David B
> www.declude.com
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
>
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
>
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
> transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User
> License Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude,
> Inc. for such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed
> Program into another application and then distribute such to third
> parties unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.).
> As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and other service providers are not
> permitted to use Declude software to clean and forward mail to
> customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has been established
with Declude.
>
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
>
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software
> and now have to pay them some of your meager profits?
>
> John T
> eServices For You
>
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> > Gary Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Don Brown

A friend of mine was one of the original founders of Bridge Data. They
were the first folks to take the Wall Street Ticker and resell it
using DEC PDP 1170, 1134, 1144, etc., to ADP, Traders, Brokerages and
others.

Bridge owned SAVVIS and some other related entities and they were a
publicly traded company. During that time, not many years ago, I saw a
long article in a St. Louis business journal, where the CEO quoted
similar numbers which were also projected by some 3rd Party
consultancy Group. He added his own forecast about increases in head
count and revenue. He was a well educated and bright individual and he
wasn't a pup, when it came to running a company.  He had tenure and a
track record.

Less than a year after the date of the article, Bridge filed for
Bankruptcy. You'll note I didn't say "bankruptcy protection." In
contrast, no amount of protection could saved the enterprise.

There is a moral to this story.

Whenever a company doesn't listen to the customer, or in this case
tells its most active customers that they should effectively refrain
from discussing a subject, which the company itself made most topical,
then I can point to the foregoing and many other examples of what to
expect in the future.

Personally, I am disappointed in where I see Declude now and where I
see it going. The lack of good flowing communications to/from the
customer base about new releases, bug fixes, etc. and, particularly,
the lack of a properly orchestrated roll-out of this new product
enhancement/add-on, says that the organization is disjointed,
disorganized and that major changes are not well thought out and
prepared for in advance, nor well managed as brush fire on the back
side.

The people expressing concerns, asking questions and wanting an
audience are your active customers.  Keep telling them to go away and
they will.

How many times is Declude going to kick itself in the chins with
steel toed combat boots before someone there gets it?

Thanks,


Tuesday, July 18, 2006, 4:19:51 PM, David Barker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
DB> Just as a side note. I have provided the contact information if you have any
DB> further questions about the upcoming program, please be reminded that the
DB> board is designed for comments on performance, function, features of our
DB> software, not Declude's strategy of marketing & sales programs. 

DB> Thanks
DB> David B
DB> www.declude.com

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
DB> Barker
DB> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:09 PM
DB> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
DB> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

DB> Matt,

DB> Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, CAGR
DB> forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may seem
DB> commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like Postini offer a
DB> poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there
DB> is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with Service Providers
DB> to empower them to offer premium services and help market and promote those
DB> services. This is the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't
DB> think we're being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the
DB> small guys compete against the big guys.  

DB> If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about the
DB> program please call or email:

DB> Arik[EMAIL PROTECTED]
DB> Kristina[EMAIL PROTECTED]

DB> David B
DB> www.declude.com


DB> 

DB> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
DB> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:07 PM
DB> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
DB> Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


DB> David,

DB> What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any
DB> revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are Declude
DB> customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few that offer a
DB> gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the astounding greed
DB> that software companies have presented us with in the last 5 years combined
DB> with competitive pressures of cheap or even free services has commoditized
DB> much of what we are doing.

DB> I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside of
DB> reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share is with
DB> those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off of doing
DB> what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood, sweat and
DB> tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

DB> Matt



DB> David Barker wrote: 

DB> There are restrictions on CommTouch being

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Kevin Bilbee

My hand is raised.


Kevin Bilbee
Standard Abrasives

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Gary Steiner
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:21 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Basically you are telling me to ignore the Add Commtouch part of your
> web page that shows up when I log in to my account.
> 
> What I find particularly amusing is the line "Restrictions apply to
> service providers."  If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing list
> who is not a service provider, please raise your hand.
> 
> Isn't it generally a good idea to have your product's pricing defined
> before you introduce the product?  I'm sure that everyone here reading
> the list is extremely curious as to what the revenue share program
> really is, and when it does come out, unless you hear exclamations of
> "What a Bargain" coming off this list there won't be many of us joining
> that program.
> 
> Other than the Commtouch add-on, are there any other features or
> reasons to upgrade to 4.3?
> 
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:03 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > 1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to Declude will be
> > in violation of CommTouch's Terms of service.
> >
> > 2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection
> > and additional spam identifying technology such as Recurrent Pattern
> > Detection Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a
> > leading technology in email outbreak detection.
> >
> > 3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and
> > will provide the details to this when it is ready.
> >
> > David B
> > www.declude.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> > Gary Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> > So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use
> > Commtouch?
> >
> > Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on,
> what
> > are the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude
> > alone does not?
> >
> > And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was
> > spelled out somewhere.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Original Message 
> > > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> > > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > >
> > > There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
> > > we had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1
> > > June
> > > 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
> > >
> > > Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
> > > restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in
> component.
> > >
> > > However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
> > > enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June
> 06)
> > > to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this
> > > program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an
> > > opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business,
> > > by providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which
> > > would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include
> CommTouch.
> > >
> > > David B
> > > www.declude.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> > > John T
> > > (Lists)
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> > > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > >
> > > I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license
> agreement:
> > >
> > > 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
> > > transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User
> > > License Agreeme

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Gary Steiner

Basically you are telling me to ignore the Add Commtouch part of your web page 
that shows up when I log in to my account.  

What I find particularly amusing is the line "Restrictions apply to service 
providers."  If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing list who is not a 
service provider, please raise your hand.

Isn't it generally a good idea to have your product's pricing defined before 
you introduce the product?  I'm sure that everyone here reading the list is 
extremely curious as to what the revenue share program really is, and when it 
does come out, unless you hear exclamations of "What a Bargain" coming off this 
list there won't be many of us joining that program.

Other than the Commtouch add-on, are there any other features or reasons to 
upgrade to 4.3?



 Original Message 
> From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:03 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> Gary,
> 
> 1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to Declude will be in
> violation of CommTouch's Terms of service. 
> 
> 2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection and
> additional spam identifying technology such as Recurrent Pattern Detection
> Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a leading technology
> in email outbreak detection.
> 
> 3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and will
> provide the details to this when it is ready.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary
> Steiner
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use
> Commtouch?
> 
> Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on, what are
> the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude alone does
> not?  
> 
> And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was spelled
> out somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message 
> > From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we 
> > had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 
> > 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
> > 
> > Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no 
> > restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
> > 
> > However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to 
> > enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) 
> > to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this 
> > program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an 
> > opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business, by 
> > providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which would be 
> > independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include CommTouch.
> > 
> > David B
> > www.declude.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> > John T
> > (Lists)
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
> > 
> > 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise 
> > transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User 
> > License Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, 
> > Inc. for such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed 
> > Program into another application and then distribute such to third 
> > parties unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). 
> > As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and other service providers are not 
> > permitted to use Declude software to clean and forward mail to 
> > customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has been established
> with Declude.
> > 
> > http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
> > 
> > Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software 
> > and now have to pay them some of your meager profits?
> > 
> > John T
> > e

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Matt


David,

There are only a handful of us that offer spam and virus blocking as an 
itemized service, the others that are service providers offer these 
things as expected services, and do so at great cost and labor.  Most 
service providers generate no direct revenue from spam and virus blocking.


For the few of us that do, none of us are projecting $100 million in 
revenues from the services, or even 1 million, much less that much in 
terms of profits.


Declude doesn't generate my income.  It is just one of many tools that I 
use.  Adding CommTouch would not generate even $1 more in extra revenue 
for me either, so except for the possibility of saving my labor, there 
is no financial benefit to me adding it on.  I would trial it if I 
thought that it could provide some benefit to what I already have (which 
is tough), but I would never share revenue with anyone that doesn't 
themselves help me generate revenue.


Please note that I am trying to be nice here.  This would really piss me 
off if I thought that it has any chance for success as a model going 
forward and it affected me, but it doesn't.  The only thing it serves to 
do is reinforce the continuation of strange and unfortunate choices that 
have been made.  There are plenty of software companies offering similar 
products that have much more normal licensing and pricing arrangements, 
and they clearly work.  I would suggest that Declude innovate the 
product instead of innovating the licensing and pricing.  Declude is not 
big enough of a company to defeat the lingua franca of the industries it 
operates within.


Matt



David Barker wrote:


Matt,

Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, CAGR
forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may seem
commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like Postini offer a
poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there
is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with Service Providers
to empower them to offer premium services and help market and promote those
services. This is the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't
think we're being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the
small guys compete against the big guys.  


If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about the
program please call or email:

Arik[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina[EMAIL PROTECTED]

David B
www.declude.com




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:07 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any
revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are Declude
customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few that offer a
gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the astounding greed
that software companies have presented us with in the last 5 years combined
with competitive pressures of cheap or even free services has commoditized
much of what we are doing.

I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside of
reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share is with
those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off of doing
what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood, sweat and
tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

Matt



David Barker wrote: 


There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
enable our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not
being forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like
the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and
will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license
agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distrib

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Glenn,

We do understand - which is exactly why we recognize that you cannot
continue on the current path you are on today :) and as a Declude community
we need to get creative. 

David B
www.declude.com 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \
WCNet
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:32 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

To give you guys over at Declude an idea of what is going on out here in the
real world of small ISPs, there may be some small bit of revenue (meaning
funds from paying customers) coming in here, but the operating costs have
outweighed that for the last couple years.  The owner has sunk over $100,000
of his personal funds into the business to keep it afloat.  I've already
eliminated software and hardware maintenance contracts on several things.
Two employees have been eliminated and one cut to part-time (two days per
week), on a staff that originally was an impressive grand total of six
people.  I have not had pay raise in four years.

- Original Message -
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


Matt,

Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, CAGR
forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may seem
commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like Postini offer a
poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there
is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with Service Providers
to empower them to offer premium services and help market and promote those
services. This is the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't
think we're being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the
small guys compete against the big guys.

If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about the
program please call or email:

Arik [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina [EMAIL PROTECTED]

David B
www.declude.com




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:07 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any
revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are Declude
customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few that offer a
gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the astounding greed
that software companies have presented us with in the last 5 years combined
with competitive pressures of cheap or even free services has commoditized
much of what we are doing.

I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside of
reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share is with
those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off of doing
what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood, sweat and
tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

Matt



David Barker wrote:

There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
enable our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not
being forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like
the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and
will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license
agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
transfer the
Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License
Agreement
unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such
purposes
(for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
application and then distribute such to third parties unless You
first
acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006,
ISP's and
other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to
clean
and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share
agreement has
been established with Declude.

http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121

Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Glenn \\ WCNet

To give you guys over at Declude an idea of what is going on out here in the
real world of small ISPs, there may be some small bit of revenue (meaning
funds from paying customers) coming in here, but the operating costs have
outweighed that for the last couple years.  The owner has sunk over $100,000
of his personal funds into the business to keep it afloat.  I've already
eliminated software and hardware maintenance contracts on several things.
Two employees have been eliminated and one cut to part-time (two days per
week), on a staff that originally was an impressive grand total of six
people.  I have not had pay raise in four years.

- Original Message - 
From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


Matt,

Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, CAGR
forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may seem
commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like Postini offer a
poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there
is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with Service Providers
to empower them to offer premium services and help market and promote those
services. This is the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't
think we're being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the
small guys compete against the big guys.

If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about the
program please call or email:

Arik [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina [EMAIL PROTECTED]

David B
www.declude.com




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:07 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any
revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are Declude
customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few that offer a
gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the astounding greed
that software companies have presented us with in the last 5 years combined
with competitive pressures of cheap or even free services has commoditized
much of what we are doing.

I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside of
reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share is with
those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off of doing
what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood, sweat and
tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

Matt



David Barker wrote:

There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
enable our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not
being forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like
the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and
will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license
agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
transfer the
Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License
Agreement
unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such
purposes
(for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
application and then distribute such to third parties unless You
first
acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006,
ISP's and
other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to
clean
and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share
agreement has
been established with Declude.

http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121

Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software
and now
have to pay them some of your meager profits?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of
Gary Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess someone is going to make an official announcement
today about


Declu

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Just as a side note. I have provided the contact information if you have any
further questions about the upcoming program, please be reminded that the
board is designed for comments on performance, function, features of our
software, not Declude's strategy of marketing & sales programs. 

Thanks
David B
www.declude.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
Barker
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:09 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Matt,

Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, CAGR
forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may seem
commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like Postini offer a
poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there
is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with Service Providers
to empower them to offer premium services and help market and promote those
services. This is the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't
think we're being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the
small guys compete against the big guys.  

If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about the
program please call or email:

Arik[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina[EMAIL PROTECTED]

David B
www.declude.com




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:07 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any
revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are Declude
customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few that offer a
gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the astounding greed
that software companies have presented us with in the last 5 years combined
with competitive pressures of cheap or even free services has commoditized
much of what we are doing.

I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside of
reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share is with
those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off of doing
what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood, sweat and
tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

Matt



David Barker wrote: 

There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
enable our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not
being forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like
the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and
will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license
agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
transfer the
Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License
Agreement
unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such
purposes
(for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
application and then distribute such to third parties unless You
first
acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006,
ISP's and
other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to
clean
and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share
agreement has
been established with Declude.

http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121

Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software
and now
have to pay them some of your meager profits?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"

  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Matt,

Managed services is the fastest growing segment of this industry, CAGR
forecasted at 25% per year through 2009. While the industry may seem
commoditized, you have pointed out  that businesses like Postini offer a
poor product but are projecting $100,000,000 in revenues. So I'd say there
is plenty of revenue to cannibalize if Declude works with Service Providers
to empower them to offer premium services and help market and promote those
services. This is the idea behind our Service Provider Program. I don't
think we're being greedy, but rather trying to get creative and help the
small guys compete against the big guys.  

If you have any questions or would like to speak to someone about the
program please call or email:

Arik[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kristina[EMAIL PROTECTED]

David B
www.declude.com




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:07 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3


David,

What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is any
revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are Declude
customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few that offer a
gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the astounding greed
that software companies have presented us with in the last 5 years combined
with competitive pressures of cheap or even free services has commoditized
much of what we are doing.

I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside of
reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share is with
those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off of doing
what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood, sweat and
tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

Matt



David Barker wrote: 

There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers
we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no
restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to
enable our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not
being forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like
the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and
will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
        Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license
agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
transfer the
Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License
Agreement
unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such
purposes
(for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
application and then distribute such to third parties unless You
first
acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006,
ISP's and
other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to
clean
and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share
agreement has
been established with Declude.

http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121

Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software
and now
have to pay them some of your meager profits?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"

  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of 
Gary Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess someone is going to make an official announcement
today about


Declude 4.3?
  

I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be
nice to 
know


what I'm
  

getting before I install it,

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

John,

These are all very important questions which we will answer with the revenue
share program. Please understand we are not forcing any existing customers
to change, but rather are offering an alternative, this is why CommTouch is
an add-on so that we do not place you in a position that will effect your
current business model negatively. You will still have the choice of taking
us up on our offer or not.

David B
www.declude.com 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:40 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

David, lets say for the sake of discussion I wanted to use/purchase/license
the Declude Gateway product with CommTouch as a "legacy" customer. Who and
how is the revenue projected or actual derived from use of the CommTouch
software/feature? Is Declude going to pay some one to audit my accounting?
Do I have to pay some one to audit my accounting? Who or how is revenue
going to be defined? If you ask my clients, it will depend. If their
wife/husband/friend/associate at another company is getting lots and spam
and he/she is not, they will say the service is valuable. But in the next
second, if that important e-mail telling them about a change to the
proposition they have been working on for 2 months is delayed, they will say
the service is worthless. Are we going to have to keep a diary of when the
service is valuable and when it is worthless to determine the percentage of
revenue? And exactly how is that percentage going to be determined? Without
spam filtering, our service is meaningless, yet it is by far not the only
cost associated with our service. Or I am going to have to purchase some
kind of software that will create a report showing by percentage how much
spam was caught by the CommTouch software/feature compared to other tests?
But what about spam that gets caught by a lot of different tests?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> David Barker
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:42 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we 
> had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 
> 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
> 
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no 
> restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
> 
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to 
> enable
our
> legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
> of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being
forced
> onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
> revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the 
> Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and 
> will include CommTouch.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
> 
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise 
> transfer
the
> Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License 
> Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for 
> such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program 
> into another application and then distribute such to third parties 
> unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of 
> June 1, 2006, ISP's and other service providers are not permitted to 
> use Declude software to clean and forward mail to customers unless a 
> separate revenue share agreement
has
> been established with Declude.
> 
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
> 
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software 
> and
now
> have to pay them some of your meager profits?
> 
> John T
> eServices For You
> 
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> > Gary Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> > I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today 
> > about
> Declude 4.3?
> > I see that its downloadable

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

Gary,

1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to Declude will be in
violation of CommTouch's Terms of service. 

2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection and
additional spam identifying technology such as Recurrent Pattern Detection
Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a leading technology
in email outbreak detection.

3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and will
provide the details to this when it is ready.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary
Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use
Commtouch?

Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on, what are
the benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude alone does
not?  

And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was spelled
out somewhere.



 Original Message 
> From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we 
> had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 
> 06) understand the licensing restrictions.
> 
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no 
> restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
> 
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to 
> enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) 
> to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this 
> program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an 
> opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business, by 
> providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which would be 
> independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include CommTouch.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
> 
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise 
> transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User 
> License Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, 
> Inc. for such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed 
> Program into another application and then distribute such to third 
> parties unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). 
> As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and other service providers are not 
> permitted to use Declude software to clean and forward mail to 
> customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has been established
with Declude.
> 
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
> 
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software 
> and now have to pay them some of your meager profits?
> 
> John T
> eServices For You
> 
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> > Gary Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today 
> > about
> Declude 4.3?
> > I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to 
> > know
> what I'm
> > getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.
> > 
> > The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are 
> > especially
> confusing.
> > 
> > https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205
> > 
> > Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the restrictions?
> Based on my
> > reading of the Restrictions, nobody who uses Declude will ever be 
> > able to
> use
> > Commtouch.  If I am misreading this, would someone please explain it 
> > to
> me?
> > 
> > Gary
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---
> > This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To 
> > unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type 
> > "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at 
> > http://www.mail-

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread John T $Lists$

David, lets say for the sake of discussion I wanted to use/purchase/license
the Declude Gateway product with CommTouch as a "legacy" customer. Who and
how is the revenue projected or actual derived from use of the CommTouch
software/feature? Is Declude going to pay some one to audit my accounting?
Do I have to pay some one to audit my accounting? Who or how is revenue
going to be defined? If you ask my clients, it will depend. If their
wife/husband/friend/associate at another company is getting lots and spam
and he/she is not, they will say the service is valuable. But in the next
second, if that important e-mail telling them about a change to the
proposition they have been working on for 2 months is delayed, they will say
the service is worthless. Are we going to have to keep a diary of when the
service is valuable and when it is worthless to determine the percentage of
revenue? And exactly how is that percentage going to be determined? Without
spam filtering, our service is meaningless, yet it is by far not the only
cost associated with our service. Or I am going to have to purchase some
kind of software that will create a report showing by percentage how much
spam was caught by the CommTouch software/feature compared to other tests?
But what about spam that gets caught by a lot of different tests?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
> Barker
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:42 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
> to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
> understand the licensing restrictions.
> 
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
> for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
> 
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable
our
> legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take
advantage
> of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being
forced
> onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you
increase
> revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
> Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
> include CommTouch.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
> 
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer
the
> Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
> unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
> (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
> application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
> acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
> other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
> and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement
has
> been established with Declude.
> 
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
> 
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and
now
> have to pay them some of your meager profits?
> 
> John T
> eServices For You
> 
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> > Gary Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> > I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about
> Declude 4.3?
> > I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to
> > know
> what I'm
> > getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.
> >
> > The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are
> > especially
> confusing.
> >
> > https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205
> >
> > Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the restrictions?
> Based on my
> > reading of the Restrictions, nobody who uses Declude will ever be able
> > to
> use
> > Commtouch.  If I am misreading this, would someone please explain it
> > to
> me?
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Goran Jovanovic

Andy,

Yes I agree with you. Since I have a perpetual license I have the right
to use the last version that I acquire under a current service agreement
FOREVER. 

Just like I can still continue to use Word 95 if I had purchased it and
it would run on the hardware/os etc etc 

I was using "OWN" and "RIGHT TO USE FOREVER" interchangeably

Goran Jovanovic
Omega Network Solutions

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Andy
> Schmidt
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:44 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> 
> Goran,
> 
> Actually, you do NOT own the software. The software vendor does
(unless
> they
> wrote it "for hire").
> 
> With a paid-up, perpetual license you own the RIGHT to use the
software
> version you purchased without time restriction and without making
> additional
> payments - but that's all.
> 
> An annual (or whatever term) licensee, will have to pay for each term.
> 
> In either case, you will need to acquire a service agreement to obtain
> more
> current versions that what you originally pre-paid for.
> 
> Best Regards
> Andy Schmidt
> 
> Phone:  +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business)
> Fax:+1 201 934-9206
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Goran
> Jovanovic
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 03:24 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> John,
> 
> That applies to the Version 4 product for the people who are renting
it on
> an annual basis. Check out section 2 on that page
> 
> 2. Copyright and ownership
> 
> Once you have acquired the Product, You own only the Media on which
the
> Software is recorded. You do not own the Software itself. The Software
is
> the exclusive property of Declude, Inc. The Software and the
Documentation
> are proprietary products of Declude, Inc. and are protected by
copyright
> and
> other intellectual property rights. Declude, Inc. reserves the right
to
> maintain records of your installation. This may include the electronic
> notification of your installation from your mail server, appliance or
> gateway server to Declude, Inc.
> 
> Us who have a perpetual license do not fall in this category. We own
the
> software and not just the media. So there must be another version of
this
> document for us perpetual users as this one dows not apply to us.
> 
> Goran Jovanovic
> Omega Network Solutions
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> John T
> > (Lists)
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> >
> > I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license
> agreement:
> >
> > 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
> transfer
> > the
> > Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License
> Agreement
> > unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such
> purposes
> > (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
> > application and then distribute such to third parties unless You
first
> > acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006,
ISP's
> and
> > other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to
> clean
> > and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share
> agreement
> > has
> > been established with Declude.
> >
> > http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
> >
> > Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software
> and
> > now
> > have to pay them some of your meager profits?
> >
> > John T
> > eServices For You
> >
> > "Seek, and ye shall find!"
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of
> Gary
> > > Steiner
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
> > > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > > Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > >
> > > I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today
> about
> > Declude 4.3?
> > > I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to
> know
> > what I'm
> > > getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.
> > >
> > > The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are
> > especially
> > co

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Nick Hayer




Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
  

Excellent!

Thanks for the reply -

-Nick

  



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type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
at http://www.mail-archive.com.

RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Gary Steiner

So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use Commtouch?

Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on, what are the 
benefits of having Commtouch?  What does it do that Declude alone does not?  

And of course it would be nice if this "revenue share program" was spelled out 
somewhere.



 Original Message 
> From: "David Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
> to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
> understand the licensing restrictions.
> 
> Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
> for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.
> 
> However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable our
> legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take advantage
> of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being forced
> onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you increase
> revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
> Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
> include CommTouch.
> 
> David B
> www.declude.com
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:
> 
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer the
> Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
> unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
> (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
> application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
> acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
> other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
> and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has
> been established with Declude.
> 
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
> 
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and now
> have to pay them some of your meager profits?
> 
> John T
> eServices For You
> 
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> > Gary Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> > 
> > I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about
> Declude 4.3?
> > I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to 
> > know
> what I'm
> > getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.
> > 
> > The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are 
> > especially
> confusing.
> > 
> > https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205
> > 
> > Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the restrictions?
> Based on my
> > reading of the Restrictions, nobody who uses Declude will ever be able 
> > to
> use
> > Commtouch.  If I am misreading this, would someone please explain it 
> > to
> me?
> > 
> > Gary
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---
> > This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To 
> > unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type 
> > "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To unsubscribe,
> just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe
> Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at
> http://www.mail-archive.com.
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To
> unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
> type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found
> at http://www.mail-archive.com. 





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at http://www.mail-archive.com.

Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Matt





David,

What makes the good folk at Declude and CommTouch believe that there is
any revenue to share?  For the majority of service providers that are
Declude customers, spam blocking is a 100% cost center, and for the few
that offer a gateway service, none of us are getting rich, in fact the
astounding greed that software companies have presented us with in the
last 5 years combined with competitive pressures of cheap or even free
services has commoditized much of what we are doing.

I have absolutely no revenue to share with Declude or CommTouch outside
of reasonable software licensing fees.  The only revenue that I share
is with those that generate business for my company.  If I get rich off
of doing what I am doing, it will be primarily the result of my blood,
sweat and tears, otherwise there would be 10,000 others just like me.

Matt



David Barker wrote:

  There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had
to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06)
understand the licensing restrictions.

Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions
for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component.

However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable our
legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take advantage
of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being forced
onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you increase
revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the
Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will
include CommTouch.

David B
www.declude.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of John T
(Lists)
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement:

3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer the
Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement
unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes
(for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another
application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first
acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and
other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean
and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has
been established with Declude.

http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121

Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and now
have to pay them some of your meager profits?

John T
eServices For You

"Seek, and ye shall find!"

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of 
Gary Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about

  
  Declude 4.3?
  
  
I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to 
know

  
  what I'm
  
  
getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.

The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are 
especially

  
  confusing.
  
  
https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205

Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the restrictions?

  
  Based on my
  
  
reading of the Restrictions, nobody who uses Declude will ever be able 
to

  
  use
  
  
Commtouch.  If I am misreading this, would someone please explain it 
to

  
  me?
  
  
Gary





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unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type 
"unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at 
http://www.mail-archive.com.

  
  



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Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at
http://www.mail-archive.com.



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at http://www.mail-archive.com.



  




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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

2006-07-18 Thread Andy Schmidt

Goran,

Actually, you do NOT own the software. The software vendor does (unless they
wrote it "for hire").

With a paid-up, perpetual license you own the RIGHT to use the software
version you purchased without time restriction and without making additional
payments - but that's all.

An annual (or whatever term) licensee, will have to pay for each term.

In either case, you will need to acquire a service agreement to obtain more
current versions that what you originally pre-paid for.

Best Regards
Andy Schmidt

Phone:  +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business)
Fax:+1 201 934-9206 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Goran
Jovanovic
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 03:24 PM
To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3

John,

That applies to the Version 4 product for the people who are renting it on
an annual basis. Check out section 2 on that page

2. Copyright and ownership 

Once you have acquired the Product, You own only the Media on which the
Software is recorded. You do not own the Software itself. The Software is
the exclusive property of Declude, Inc. The Software and the Documentation
are proprietary products of Declude, Inc. and are protected by copyright and
other intellectual property rights. Declude, Inc. reserves the right to
maintain records of your installation. This may include the electronic
notification of your installation from your mail server, appliance or
gateway server to Declude, Inc. 

Us who have a perpetual license do not fall in this category. We own the
software and not just the media. So there must be another version of this
document for us perpetual users as this one dows not apply to us.

Goran Jovanovic
Omega Network Solutions

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
John T
> (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> 
> 
> I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license
agreement:
> 
> 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise
transfer
> the
> Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License
Agreement
> unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such
purposes
> (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another 
> application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first 
> acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's
and
> other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to
clean
> and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share
agreement
> has
> been established with Declude.
> 
> http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121
> 
> Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software
and
> now
> have to pay them some of your meager profits?
> 
> John T
> eServices For You
> 
> "Seek, and ye shall find!"
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Gary
> > Steiner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM
> > To: declude.junkmail@declude.com
> > Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
> >
> > I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today
about
> Declude 4.3?
> > I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to
know
> what I'm
> > getting before I install it, especially the new Commtouch stuff.
> >
> > The "Restrictions" listed next to the Add Commtouch section are
> especially
> confusing.
> >
> > https://www.declude.com/articles.asp?ID=205
> >
> > Who would use Declude and not fit the definitions of the
restrictions?
> Based on my
> > reading of the Restrictions, nobody who uses Declude will ever be
able
> to
> use
> > Commtouch.  If I am misreading this, would someone please explain it
to
> me?
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To 
> > unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type 
> > "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list.  To 
> unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type 
> "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail".  The archives can be found at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com.



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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3