Re: [Emc-users] Trans-Pacific sailboat race that Andy is involved in

[andy pugh]

On 1 April 2012 16:24, gene heskett  wrote:

>> http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/01/us/pacific-yacht-rescue/index.html
>
> Not good.  Disabled in seas like that, they'll either need a tug, or to
> abandon. 400 miles out is a long way for a tug.

They rigged the emergency steering and then jury-rigged the main
steering. In the end they still arrived in port earlier than the race
organisers expected, and set sail in the next leg fully repaired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGl0ay04q9E
(fast-forward to 3min)

Jane, (who was, ironically, the crew doctor) is still in hospital with
a punctured lung, ruptured spleen and 4 fractured vertebrae, but is
expected to make a full, if slow, recovery.

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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 14:45:40 -0700, you wrote:

>What comes to mind from my first test is that the Roswill may never work
>with the G540 without an external pull-up. These 9815 based cards are by
>far the most popular, so either Mach3 people are not using PCI cards
>with the G540, or Mach3 is doing something other than setting EPP mode?

Most, if not all, Mach users use a breakout board, not recommended
connecting direct to parallel port. 

However the G540 is supposed to have it's own breakout board built in
and I've seen no reports of it not working with windows/Mach
combination. I would guess that plenty of people are using it with 9815
based PCI cards too.

Don't know much else about it though, never used one - too expensive -
it's a full 150 dollars more over here than in the USA!!

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] OT: thread rolling

[andy pugh]

On 26 February 2012 12:14, Roland Jollivet  wrote:
> And I thought thread rolling required huge rollers

It doesn't necessarily need rollers at all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDer5HJpbHA

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: thread rolling

[John Thornton]

That's just a flat die thread roller, there are thousands of them but 
usually they are driven by motor and have feeder bowls etc. They 
actually make a better thread than round die thread rollers...

John

On 4/15/2012 6:33 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 26 February 2012 12:14, Roland Jollivet  wrote:
>> And I thought thread rolling required huge rollers
> It doesn't necessarily need rollers at all:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDer5HJpbHA
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Trans-Pacific sailboat race that Andy is involved in

[gene heskett]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 08:21:17 AM andy pugh did opine:

> On 1 April 2012 16:24, gene heskett  wrote:
> >> http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/01/us/pacific-yacht-rescue/index.html
> > 
> > Not good.  Disabled in seas like that, they'll either need a tug, or
> > to abandon. 400 miles out is a long way for a tug.
> 
> They rigged the emergency steering and then jury-rigged the main
> steering. In the end they still arrived in port earlier than the race
> organisers expected, and set sail in the next leg fully repaired.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGl0ay04q9E
> (fast-forward to 3min)

Not on my connection. :)

That's good.  And that, to me is a small boat for open water.

> Jane, (who was, ironically, the crew doctor) is still in hospital with
> a punctured lung, ruptured spleen and 4 fractured vertebrae, but is
> expected to make a full, if slow, recovery.

A year maybe, with surgeries to bridge the vertebrae & likely never be the 
same.  But she must be made of sturdy stuff too.  I wish her well.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, Kirk Wallace wrote:

> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 14:45:40 -0700
> From: Kirk Wallace 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: LinuxCNC Users List 
> Subject: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update
> 
> I set up Dan's G540 today and used it with three different ports. A
> motherboard port which worked okay, but showed a bit of a saw toothed
> wave form, so it seems the G540 pump input draws a fair amount of
> capacitive load compared to the pin 16 output source capability.
>
> I then used a Rosewill dual port PCI card with a Moschip 9815 on it.
> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/indexdl/Datasheet-082/DASF0042609.pdf
>
> I got a pump signal out of it but the the ON voltage didn't get much
> above one volt. Switching from SPP to EPP didn't make any difference.
>
> I then used a Startech dual port PCI card (bottom of page):
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Startech
>
> and got the pump to work in EPP but not SPP, which was expected.
>
> Using a 1k Ohm pull up to +5V on the Rosewill card got the G540 to show
> a green LED, but the wave form was similar to the non pull-up wave (OFF
> = 0v, ON = 1V) but with an upward ramp during the ON time that got into
> the 2 Volt range. There was no change between SPP and EPP. A 660 Ohm
> resistor pulled the ramp up higher, but 5V / 660 Ohms = 7.5 mA and is
> starting to get into an amp range that could get interesting for pin 16.
>
> With my current bench setup, I need three hands to get a wave form on
> the oscilloscope and take a picture, so I'll need to upgrade my setup in
> order to post the wave forms. I hope to do that soon.
>
> What comes to mind from my first test is that the Roswill may never work
> with the G540 without an external pull-up. These 9815 based cards are by
> far the most popular, so either Mach3 people are not using PCI cards
> with the G540, or Mach3 is doing something other than setting EPP mode?
>
> I found that Stepconfig worked well for setting up the pump. There is a
> G540 short cut button that seems to enter the signal timing and some
> other settings, but I needed to change a few pin assignments. Stepconfig
> sets up the pump to come on when LinuxCNC is out of E-stop. I don't see
> a problem with this, but if needed, it's easy to change the
> configuration files to get full time pump regardless of e-stop status.
>
> -- 
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
> California, USA
>
>
> --
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>



This does show the the G540 charge pump circuit needs a re-design. Theres 
really no reason it should not "just work" with _any_ parallel port in any 
mode.

(if you look at the various Mach forums, a lot of people just gave up and 
turned the charge pump off)

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Trans-Pacific sailboat race that Andy is involved in

[Dave]

On 4/15/2012 5:49 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 1 April 2012 16:24, gene heskett  wrote:
>
>
>>> http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/01/us/pacific-yacht-rescue/index.html
>>>
>> Not good.  Disabled in seas like that, they'll either need a tug, or to
>> abandon. 400 miles out is a long way for a tug.
>>  
> They rigged the emergency steering and then jury-rigged the main
> steering. In the end they still arrived in port earlier than the race
> organisers expected, and set sail in the next leg fully repaired.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGl0ay04q9E
> (fast-forward to 3min)
>
> Jane, (who was, ironically, the crew doctor) is still in hospital with
> a punctured lung, ruptured spleen and 4 fractured vertebrae, but is
> expected to make a full, if slow, recovery.
>
>


 >>Jane, (who was, ironically, the crew doctor) is still in hospital with

a punctured lung, ruptured spleen and 4 fractured vertebrae, but is
expected to make a full, if slow, recovery.<<

She is lucky she didn't die from her injuries.

Was your boat bashed around also from the same large waves or was that boat hit 
by a rogue wave?

Would you do that again?

I was thinking about you as the days clicked by.  I like to sail but your 
voyage makes a trans-Atlantic look like a short hop! ;-)


Dave





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[Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Andrew]

Hello,

I got troubles setting up my machine. Three small HIWIN linear motors (no
Hall sensors, just UVW inputs and temperature sensor output), linear
encoders, 7i43 with 2x7i39, and I'd like to put it all together. I also
have SVSTTP4_4_7i39 firmware.
Andy Pugh answered my first questions already.

15 квітня 2012 р. 09:16 andy pugh  написав:

> Does the encoder have index pulses, and do they have a fixed
> correspondence to the motor phases?
>
> Thanks for your answer, Andy!
It has, and the index position can be set anywhere.


> You might also try "qi" mode, where it will try to run in one

direction until it sees an encoder index. This could be a physical
> switch on the end-stop, if you can afford to run full-travel during
> homing. You would then need to adjust the "encoder-offset" parameter
> to suit.
>
> In both cases the encoder scale parameter needs to be correct, and is
> equally likely to need to be negative as positive.
>
> Now I'd like magnetic init. Then I can find the offset and switch to index
homing.


> I think everything else is mentioned in the manpage.
>

Now the problem for me is to properly connect bldc and 3pwmgen. I seem to
have it done but nothing happens.

If you load bldc in "q" mode then you will get an "init" input pin and
> an "init-done" output pin. When "init" goes high then the component
> will produce output a homing pattern to the motor phase outputs, and
> will measure the encoder offset. When it is finished it will set
> "init-done" high. Normally you would insert these into the emc-enable
> loopback in the HAL so that there is no f-error raised during the
> homing sequence.


But the question is when to enable 3pwmgen. Now I just set it always
enabled.
Please look at my configs (based on pncconf output, all strings with
"index" disabled, bldc to 3pwngen connection added).
That's what I have with this config. Encoders behave strange, only
+-0.005mm change with any movement, like only A or B is working. But I
checked 7i39 receives both A and B signals, and the signals look OK. Should
check the second 7i39.
The motor seems not powered at all, though two orange LEDs on 7i39 light
when the machine starts.

If you have any working configs 7i43+7i39 please share.

Thanks a lot,
Andrew


Linear.hal
Description: Binary data


Linear.ini
Description: Binary data
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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Dave]

On 4/15/2012 11:02 AM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 14:45:40 -0700
>> From: Kirk Wallace
>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>  
>> To: LinuxCNC Users List
>> Subject: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update
>>
>> I set up Dan's G540 today and used it with three different ports. A
>> motherboard port which worked okay, but showed a bit of a saw toothed
>> wave form, so it seems the G540 pump input draws a fair amount of
>> capacitive load compared to the pin 16 output source capability.
>>
>> I then used a Rosewill dual port PCI card with a Moschip 9815 on it.
>> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/indexdl/Datasheet-082/DASF0042609.pdf
>>
>> I got a pump signal out of it but the the ON voltage didn't get much
>> above one volt. Switching from SPP to EPP didn't make any difference.
>>
>> I then used a Startech dual port PCI card (bottom of page):
>> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Startech
>>
>> and got the pump to work in EPP but not SPP, which was expected.
>>
>> Using a 1k Ohm pull up to +5V on the Rosewill card got the G540 to show
>> a green LED, but the wave form was similar to the non pull-up wave (OFF
>> = 0v, ON = 1V) but with an upward ramp during the ON time that got into
>> the 2 Volt range. There was no change between SPP and EPP. A 660 Ohm
>> resistor pulled the ramp up higher, but 5V / 660 Ohms = 7.5 mA and is
>> starting to get into an amp range that could get interesting for pin 16.
>>
>> With my current bench setup, I need three hands to get a wave form on
>> the oscilloscope and take a picture, so I'll need to upgrade my setup in
>> order to post the wave forms. I hope to do that soon.
>>
>> What comes to mind from my first test is that the Roswill may never work
>> with the G540 without an external pull-up. These 9815 based cards are by
>> far the most popular, so either Mach3 people are not using PCI cards
>> with the G540, or Mach3 is doing something other than setting EPP mode?
>>
>> I found that Stepconfig worked well for setting up the pump. There is a
>> G540 short cut button that seems to enter the signal timing and some
>> other settings, but I needed to change a few pin assignments. Stepconfig
>> sets up the pump to come on when LinuxCNC is out of E-stop. I don't see
>> a problem with this, but if needed, it's easy to change the
>> configuration files to get full time pump regardless of e-stop status.
>>
>> -- 
>> Kirk Wallace
>> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
>> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
>> California, USA
>>
>>
>> --
>> For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second.
>> Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You.
>> Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-d2dvs2
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>>  
>
>
> This does show the the G540 charge pump circuit needs a re-design. Theres
> really no reason it should not "just work" with _any_ parallel port in any
> mode.
>
> (if you look at the various Mach forums, a lot of people just gave up and
> turned the charge pump off)
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
>

I didn't think about that "solution" to the charge pump issue!

Not to put down the Mach3 forum folks, but many of them are "problem 
avoiders".   When they run into an issue they are perfectly content to 
simply
ignore the problem rather than rant about it (they typically can't fix 
the issues since the software is closed source.)The list of broken 
features or bugs in Mach3 is extensive and it has been for years and it 
doesn't seem to be improving.

The LinuxCNC developers, in contrast, would lose sleep over the same 
bugs, rather than suffer the embarrassment.

So in retrospect, I would expect that the typical Mach3 users answer to 
a G540 charge pump issue would be to simply "turn it off".

All is not well in Mach3 land.

Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Andrew wrote:


Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:15:25 +0300
From: Andrew 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: [Emc-users]  BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

Hello,

I got troubles setting up my machine. Three small HIWIN linear motors (no
Hall sensors, just UVW inputs and temperature sensor output), linear
encoders, 7i43 with 2x7i39, and I'd like to put it all together. I also
have SVSTTP4_4_7i39 firmware.
Andy Pugh answered my first questions already.

15  2012 ??. 09:16 andy pugh  ??:


Does the encoder have index pulses, and do they have a fixed
correspondence to the motor phases?

Thanks for your answer, Andy!

It has, and the index position can be set anywhere.



You might also try "qi" mode, where it will try to run in one


direction until it sees an encoder index. This could be a physical

switch on the end-stop, if you can afford to run full-travel during
homing. You would then need to adjust the "encoder-offset" parameter
to suit.

In both cases the encoder scale parameter needs to be correct, and is
equally likely to need to be negative as positive.

Now I'd like magnetic init. Then I can find the offset and switch to index

homing.



I think everything else is mentioned in the manpage.



Now the problem for me is to properly connect bldc and 3pwmgen. I seem to
have it done but nothing happens.

If you load bldc in "q" mode then you will get an "init" input pin and

an "init-done" output pin. When "init" goes high then the component
will produce output a homing pattern to the motor phase outputs, and
will measure the encoder offset. When it is finished it will set
"init-done" high. Normally you would insert these into the emc-enable
loopback in the HAL so that there is no f-error raised during the
homing sequence.



But the question is when to enable 3pwmgen. Now I just set it always
enabled.
Please look at my configs (based on pncconf output, all strings with
"index" disabled, bldc to 3pwngen connection added).
That's what I have with this config. Encoders behave strange, only
+-0.005mm change with any movement, like only A or B is working. But I
checked 7i39 receives both A and B signals, and the signals look OK. Should
check the second 7i39.
The motor seems not powered at all, though two orange LEDs on 7i39 light
when the machine starts.

If you have any working configs 7i43+7i39 please share.

Thanks a lot,
Andrew




I would start with a normal hm2-servo config, not a pncconf derived setup,
the fewer uncertanties here the better.


First step would be to get the encoders working.

You may need to trace the signals from the encoder to the GPIO pins (you can 
find the encoder A/B to GPIO pin mappings in the SVSTTP4_4.PIN file) you 
should be able to just halmeter the GPIOs the correspond to the encoder A/B 
pins and check them.


Also I believe this configuration does not connect the fault input to the 
TPPWM so the TPPWM fault invert option must be set for all active TPPWMs
(you can verify that the fault is not set by reading the state of the TPPWMS 
fault bit)





Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Looking to replace $4000 machine for $400 machine with same results in emc :) yes its a strange title...

[andy pugh]

On 4 March 2012 23:49, Bart Libert (EducaSoft)  wrote:
> and doesn't it make a problem then that my pc has a maximum jitter of
> around 45000 ?
>
> My expensive one seems to be lucky as he stays very low in jitter, but
> the cheap ones I have go upto 45000 in jitter.

You are making the false assumption that the differing performance of
the two machines is related to their price, whereas it is completely
unconnected.
One of the very best performers for latency with LinuxCNC is the Intel
D525MW motherboard, and that is about $80 (processor included). This
has a jitter well under 10,000nS (and can be tweaked to <5000).
I think that you could achieve your stated requirements with one of
these boards and the onboard parallel port.

However, I would suggest that the Pico USC (if you have a PC with an
EPP-capable parallel port) or Mesa 5i25 mated to the 7i76 interface
board (if you have an available PCI slot) would give you a more
capable and flexible system.

However, I would still be suggesting the D525 motherboard, as it is a
known-good board, with EPP-capable port in a small form factor. Just
mount it in the same box as all the other components and treat it as
yet another part of the system, and not a PC.

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Re: [Emc-users] Trans-Pacific sailboat race that Andy is involved in

[andy pugh]

On 15 April 2012 16:06, Dave  wrote:

> Was your boat bashed around also from the same large waves or was that boat 
> hit by a rogue wave?

The other boats were further ahead and missed that particular weather
system, though it was not a great deal more severe than what we had
been sailing in previously. The boats are designed to take advantage
of large following waves, as they surf well (we regularly saw double
the displacement speed, and peaked at 27kts).
The problem they had was that one of the following waves actually
broke over the stern (we saw only one wave break anywhere near us).
I think the only picture I have seen that captures the size of the
Pacific waves is the second on this page:
http://www.sail-world.com/UK/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=68035&SRCID=0&ntid=29&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0
Which is actually about the previous race (2009-2010) and the
dismasted boat (California) is the one they renamed t o "Derry
Londonderry" and that I sailed on.

> Would you do that again?

The answer when I got to the Golden Gate was a definite "No, never
again" but it has now become a "perhaps". Given a few more months, I
expect to have completely changed my mind.
http://clipperroundtheworld.com/index.php/teams/derry-londonderry/crew-diaries?item=1237
sums it up :-)

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC on 7i43 + 7i39 + linear motors

[andy pugh]

On 15 April 2012 16:15, Andrew  wrote:

> But the question is when to enable 3pwmgen. Now I just set it always
> enabled.

That is probably OK.

> That's what I have with this config. Encoders behave strange, only
> +-0.005mm change with any movement, like only A or B is working.

If "rawcounts" isn't counting up and down as you move the unpowered
motor, then there is no hope of getting anything else working.
You need to Halscope the encoder pins (dmesg should tell you which
gpio pins correspond to the encoder phases) and see if there is a good
quadrature signal getting into LinuxCNC.

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Re: [Emc-users] Trans-Pacific sailboat race that Andy is involved in

[Dave]

The second picture down on the first link:

I would not consider that a wave... at least not regards to the "Great 
Lakes" waves we experience in the Midwest USA - I would consider that a 
mountain of water..  That is crazy big!   I can't imagine that "water 
mountain" in the picture breaking over the back of a boat.   8-O

Dave

On 4/15/2012 12:29 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 15 April 2012 16:06, Dave  wrote:
>
>
>> Was your boat bashed around also from the same large waves or was that boat 
>> hit by a rogue wave?
>>  
> The other boats were further ahead and missed that particular weather
> system, though it was not a great deal more severe than what we had
> been sailing in previously. The boats are designed to take advantage
> of large following waves, as they surf well (we regularly saw double
> the displacement speed, and peaked at 27kts).
> The problem they had was that one of the following waves actually
> broke over the stern (we saw only one wave break anywhere near us).
> I think the only picture I have seen that captures the size of the
> Pacific waves is the second on this page:
> http://www.sail-world.com/UK/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=68035&SRCID=0&ntid=29&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0
> Which is actually about the previous race (2009-2010) and the
> dismasted boat (California) is the one they renamed t o "Derry
> Londonderry" and that I sailed on.
>
>
>> Would you do that again?
>>  
> The answer when I got to the Golden Gate was a definite "No, never
> again" but it has now become a "perhaps". Given a few more months, I
> expect to have completely changed my mind.
> http://clipperroundtheworld.com/index.php/teams/derry-londonderry/crew-diaries?item=1237
> sums it up :-)
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Voltage to frequency for analog input

[andy pugh]

On 9 March 2012 03:46, Scott Hasse  wrote:

> My question is about this analog input.

One way to do this that I keep meaning to experiment with is to use a
PWM output to create a reference voltage, and a comparator to detect
whether it is above or below the voltage to be measured.

A custom HAL component would be needed to ramp up/down the PWM value
to track the measured voltage.

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Re: [Emc-users] Voltage to frequency for analog input

[Scott Hasse]

Definitely an interesting idea.  To answer Thomas' question from earlier, I
was able to read a 500-1000 Hz range reliably enough to successfully
control EDM plunge/retreat for successful EDM on our first try using the
simple conditional gcode I referenced on the wiki page describing this.

A lot more refinement is necessary, and I still have questions/further
investigations about why the frequency limit is so low, and additional
encountered some of the same sort of instability that Gene is encountering
in his encoder readings (even at a stable frequency input), but have not
filtered it as of yet using the component referenced in that thread.  I'm
not sure an EDM system would really benefit from it anyway, as fast
response is more important than a stable reading, and there is no
mechanical momentum as their is on a lathe spindle.

Scott

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 1:34 PM, andy pugh  wrote:

> On 9 March 2012 03:46, Scott Hasse  wrote:
>
> > My question is about this analog input.
>
> One way to do this that I keep meaning to experiment with is to use a
> PWM output to create a reference voltage, and a comparator to detect
> whether it is above or below the voltage to be measured.
>
> A custom HAL component would be needed to ramp up/down the PWM value
> to track the measured voltage.
>
> --
> atp
> The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply,
> wrong.
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Voltage to frequency for analog input

[Thomas Powderly]

Scott,
thats great!

Your machine will have some response-ability
meaning it just wont react to a sine above a certain frequency

at some point the control signal is saying up/down so fast the machine
tool is just quivering,
not getting to the commanded  position.

this is often a basic evaluation of an edm machine

you wont really find machine that reacts to sines much > 400hz outside of labs
so your results are super!

try feeding a tiny positional sine to the X&Y while sinking
you'll be orbiting :)

i gotta come up to madison ? and see this

regards
TomP

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Scott Hasse  wrote:
> Definitely an interesting idea.  To answer Thomas' question from earlier, I
> was able to read a 500-1000 Hz range reliably enough to successfully
> control EDM plunge/retreat for successful EDM on our first try using the
> simple conditional gcode I referenced on the wiki page describing this.
>
> A lot more refinement is necessary, and I still have questions/further
> investigations about why the frequency limit is so low, and additional
> encountered some of the same sort of instability that Gene is encountering
> in his encoder readings (even at a stable frequency input), but have not
> filtered it as of yet using the component referenced in that thread.  I'm
> not sure an EDM system would really benefit from it anyway, as fast
> response is more important than a stable reading, and there is no
> mechanical momentum as their is on a lathe spindle.
>
> Scott
>
> On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 1:34 PM, andy pugh  wrote:
>
>> On 9 March 2012 03:46, Scott Hasse  wrote:
>>
>> > My question is about this analog input.
>>
>> One way to do this that I keep meaning to experiment with is to use a
>> PWM output to create a reference voltage, and a comparator to detect
>> whether it is above or below the voltage to be measured.
>>
>> A custom HAL component would be needed to ramp up/down the PWM value
>> to track the measured voltage.
>>
>> --
>> atp
>> The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply,
>> wrong.
>>
>>
>> --
>> For Developers, A Lot Can Happen In A Second.
>> Boundary is the first to Know...and Tell You.
>> Monitor Your Applications in Ultra-Fine Resolution. Try it FREE!
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Re: [Emc-users] Voltage to frequency for analog input

[gene heskett]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 03:01:56 PM Scott Hasse did opine:

> Definitely an interesting idea.  To answer Thomas' question from
> earlier, I was able to read a 500-1000 Hz range reliably enough to
> successfully control EDM plunge/retreat for successful EDM on our first
> try using the simple conditional gcode I referenced on the wiki page
> describing this.
> 
> A lot more refinement is necessary, and I still have questions/further
> investigations about why the frequency limit is so low, and additional
> encountered some of the same sort of instability that Gene is
> encountering in his encoder readings (even at a stable frequency
> input), but have not filtered it as of yet using the component
> referenced in that thread.  I'm not sure an EDM system would really
> benefit from it anyway, as fast response is more important than a
> stable reading, and there is no mechanical momentum as their is on a
> lathe spindle.
> 
> Scott
> 
You can slice it pretty thin, but there will _always_ be the mass of the 
moving electrode and its mechanism to move it, so that 'blanket' statement 
cannot be as true as you say.  However, I think asking LinuxCNC to manage 
that in real time, with millisecond responses, may be asking a bit much, 
and I'd expect to see a need for some amount of filtering via the lowpass 
module might be required.

I have yet to play with that as I am currently awaiting the arrival of a 
new spindle controller after having played Dumbass and hooked my scope 
probes ground to the - rail of the interface cards power supply AFTER 
hooking it to the lathes controller board.  Contact was of course instant 
fireworks that among other things, cleared the controllers main fuse, and 
one trace on the interface card plus I have no idea what else.  So I just 
bought another interface card, the DSO Nano V1 from fleabay, and enough 
caps to shotgun the nearly open ones on the lathes 10 year old controller.

Hopefully I will not have another similar attack of Dumbass when I get it 
all back in 1 box the next time.  :(

I am however, making some mods to this interface that should give it about 
2 decades faster response, as it exists, it is way too slow, optimized for 
a 50-200/second pwm rate.  At thread cutting rpms, 200 hz, filtered down to 
about .25 hz at the interfaces output doesn't strike me as being at all 
desirable.  Hence the mods to increase its control bandwidth.

Once I get the spindle running again, then I'll see what is the minimum 
multiplier for lowpass to give me a quasi-stable value.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Jon Elson]

andy pugh wrote:
> On 14 April 2012 22:45, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
>
>   
>> A 660 Ohm
>> resistor pulled the ramp up higher, but 5V / 660 Ohms = 7.5 mA and is
>> starting to get into an amp range that could get interesting for pin 16.
>> 
>
> I thought that nearly all p-ports can _sink_ 15mA per pin?
> http://www.asix.com.tw/FrootAttach/datasheet/MCS9815_Datasheet_v200.pdf
> has the "drive strength" at 12mA for the p-port pins, but does not
> specify source or sink.
>   
I use 390 Ohm resistors pulled to +3.3 V on my interface boards.  And, 
they can
be daisy-chained, so that is 195 Ohms to +3.3 V when you use two.  So, 
when driven
low, it is almost 17 mA with two boards, and 8.5 mA with one board.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Voltage to frequency for analog input

[Scott Hasse]

I think there might be some confusion about what we are reading in via
voltage to frequency using a software encoder velocity in this case.  The
analog value read as a frequency between 500 and 1000Hz is a scaled version
of the voltage of the EDM process itself.  Our relatively naive
understanding is that this value can be used to determine when to further
plunge, stay in place or retreat, and the gcode at
http://code.google.com/p/sector67-sandbox/wiki/FrequencyBasedAnalogInputhas
a loop of code with logical if/then "bands" between 500 and 1000 that
are set appropriately to control the plunge/stay/retreat behavior of the Z
axis depending on the analog value read.

For instance if the input is 500 Hz that would mean basically zero voltage,
a shorted electrode that needs to be backed off.  An input of 1000Hz would
mean top-of-the-range voltage that needs to be plunged further.

Of course the physical axis has momentum, but the voltage value being read
as analog input in this case might change quite dramatically as the
electrode is for instance too close, and as such I don't believe this
analog value has meaningful "momentum" such that it would need to be
smoothed.  In fact my understanding is that we'd want the fastest retreat
(for instance) response possible and smoothing would only hurt that.
 Again, we are not measuring motion with this input but voltage.

I don't know the actual frequency that the motion control loop runs with,
as that depends on the speed of the gcode loop interpretation, analog read,
etc., but in our testing the motion response was sufficiently fast to
successfully achieve basically stable arcing EDM in both steel and
aluminum, with further refinements very likely possible as we learn more
about the very interesting EDM process.

Hope that helps clarify, and I'm certainly open to any advice and
correction.

Scott
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[Emc-users] Storebro260 update

[Roger Holmquist]

Just put a few measurements on spindle moter stator power circuitry  
on site:  http://abcnc.se/projects/storebro260.html
Done with a 100 MHz oscilloscope 1:10 probes, signal ground on chassis.

/ Roger


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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Kirk Wallace]

I have some scope traces from LinuxCNC's pump below. I haven't had time
to add text to the pictures yet but I'll try to describe them in this
message for now. The group of pictures is here:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/ 


Motherboard port, set to SPP in BIOS:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_mb_spp.jpg 

one trace is at 0 V, vertical divisions are 1 V per div., green LED OFF


Motherboard port, set to EPP in BIOS:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_mb_epp.jpg 

green LED ON


Rosewill PCI card, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same trace either way:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_rw_sepp.jpg 

green LED OFF


Rosewill PCI card, with 1k Ohm pull-up:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_rw_1kpup.jpg 

green LED ON


Startech PCI card, set to SPP:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_st_spp.jpg 

green LED OFF


Startech PCI card, set to EPP:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_st_epp.jpg 

swings all the way to 5 V, green LED ON


SIIG PCI card, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same trace either way:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_spp.jpg 

just enough to turn green LED ON


SIIG PCI card, with 330 Ohm pull-up, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same
trace either way:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_k33pup.jpg 

green LED ON



Horizontal divisions are 50 microseconds/div. One cycle is 4 div. or
20kHZ (?) (base-thread = 10ns, with reset = 1000).

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Storebro260 update

[Dave]

Roger,

You won't have any problem using that spindle drive with LinuxCNC.  On 
the one drawing - top left corner there is pin 56 and 57.  One is the 
reference and the other the analog speed input for the drive.   I have a 
Simoreg drive on my lathe that is probably similar, but newer.   Siemens 
uses the same pin numbers for their analog inputs on their DC drives 
even to this day.   Simoreg drives are very durable.  Put a plus voltage 
on the pin and it goes forward, negative and it runs in reverse.

Dave

On 4/15/2012 6:10 PM, Roger Holmquist wrote:
> Just put a few measurements on spindle moter stator power circuitry
> on site:  http://abcnc.se/projects/storebro260.html
> Done with a 100 MHz oscilloscope 1:10 probes, signal ground on chassis.
>
> / Roger
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Storebro260 update

[Dave]

Is there a small keyboard on that Spindle drive with some led displays?

Dave

On 4/15/2012 6:10 PM, Roger Holmquist wrote:
> Just put a few measurements on spindle moter stator power circuitry
> on site:  http://abcnc.se/projects/storebro260.html
> Done with a 100 MHz oscilloscope 1:10 probes, signal ground on chassis.
>
> / Roger
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[gene heskett]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 09:24:08 PM Kirk Wallace did opine:

> I have some scope traces from LinuxCNC's pump below. I haven't had time
> to add text to the pictures yet but I'll try to describe them in this
> message for now. The group of pictures is here:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/
> 
> 
> Motherboard port, set to SPP in BIOS:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_mb_spp.jpg
> 
> one trace is at 0 V, vertical divisions are 1 V per div., green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Motherboard port, set to EPP in BIOS:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_mb_epp.jpg
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> Rosewill PCI card, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same trace either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_rw_sepp.jpg
> 
> green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Rosewill PCI card, with 1k Ohm pull-up:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_rw_1kpup.jpg
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> Startech PCI card, set to SPP:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_st_spp.jpg
> 
> green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Startech PCI card, set to EPP:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_st_epp.jpg
> 
> swings all the way to 5 V, green LED ON
> 
> 
> SIIG PCI card, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same trace either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_spp.jpg
> 
> just enough to turn green LED ON
> 
> 
> SIIG PCI card, with 330 Ohm pull-up, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same
> trace either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_k33pup.jpg
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> 
> Horizontal divisions are 50 microseconds/div. One cycle is 4 div. or
> 20kHZ (?) (base-thread = 10ns, with reset = 1000).

What happens if the pump frequency is reduced to say 10% of what its set at 
now?

Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of calibration 
against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a low value series 
resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf on the other side of 
the resistor as a noise filter on that input, and likely on all inputs 
since engineers have a tendency to 'step & repeat' for that stuff.

I can't believe you would long tolerate a probe that far out of adjustment 
Kirk, so that leaves the 540 apparently suffering from way too much noise 
filtering on that input.  So the pumping frequency is so high the capacitor 
used for noise filtering never has a chance to either fully charge, or to 
fully discharge.  So you get insufficient swing.

So drop the pump frequency to 10-20% of what it is now just for effects, 
would be my advice.  If it drops out because the pump is then too slow, the 
540 needs a redesign tweak, at least according to Gene. :)

Cheers, Gene
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Write yourself a threatening letter and pen a defiant reply.

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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Steve Stallings]

Kirk,

In every case except the motherboard you describe
the waveform as being the same for SPP or EPP mode.
This leads me to believe that none of the cards are
actually going into EPP mode. What were you using
to set the cards to EPP mode?

Regards,
Steve Stallings


> -Original Message-
> From: Kirk Wallace [mailto:kwall...@wallacecompany.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:09 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update
> 
> I have some scope traces from LinuxCNC's pump below. I 
> haven't had time
> to add text to the pictures yet but I'll try to describe them in this
> message for now. The group of pictures is here:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/ 
> 
> 
> Motherboard port, set to SPP in BIOS:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_mb_spp.jpg 
> 
> one trace is at 0 V, vertical divisions are 1 V per div., 
> green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Motherboard port, set to EPP in BIOS:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_mb_epp.jpg 
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> Rosewill PCI card, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same trace 
> either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_rw_sepp.jpg 
> 
> green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Rosewill PCI card, with 1k Ohm pull-up:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_rw_1kpup.jpg 
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> Startech PCI card, set to SPP:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_st_spp.jpg 
> 
> green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Startech PCI card, set to EPP:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_st_epp.jpg 
> 
> swings all the way to 5 V, green LED ON
> 
> 
> SIIG PCI card, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same trace either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_spp.jpg 
> 
> just enough to turn green LED ON
> 
> 
> SIIG PCI card, with 330 Ohm pull-up, set to SPP and EPP, I 
> get the same
> trace either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_k33pup.jpg 
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> 
> Horizontal divisions are 50 microseconds/div. One cycle is 4 div. or
> 20kHZ (?) (base-thread = 10ns, with reset = 1000).
> 
> -- 
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
> California, USA
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Steve Stallings]

Kirk,

Oops, I now realize that you did get different
result for the Startech card in EPP mode. Did
you have a utility from Startech to set that
board to EPP mode, or did you use one of the
utilities from Jon Elson or a similar routine?

Steve Stallings 

> -Original Message-
> From: Kirk Wallace [mailto:kwall...@wallacecompany.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:09 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update
> 
> I have some scope traces from LinuxCNC's pump below. I 
> haven't had time
> to add text to the pictures yet but I'll try to describe them in this
> message for now. The group of pictures is here:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/ 
> 
> 
> Motherboard port, set to SPP in BIOS:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_mb_spp.jpg 
> 
> one trace is at 0 V, vertical divisions are 1 V per div., 
> green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Motherboard port, set to EPP in BIOS:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_mb_epp.jpg 
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> Rosewill PCI card, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same trace 
> either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_rw_sepp.jpg 
> 
> green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Rosewill PCI card, with 1k Ohm pull-up:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_rw_1kpup.jpg 
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> Startech PCI card, set to SPP:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_st_spp.jpg 
> 
> green LED OFF
> 
> 
> Startech PCI card, set to EPP:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_st_epp.jpg 
> 
> swings all the way to 5 V, green LED ON
> 
> 
> SIIG PCI card, set to SPP and EPP, I get the same trace either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_spp.jpg 
> 
> just enough to turn green LED ON
> 
> 
> SIIG PCI card, with 330 Ohm pull-up, set to SPP and EPP, I 
> get the same
> trace either way:
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_k33pup.jpg 
> 
> green LED ON
> 
> 
> 
> Horizontal divisions are 50 microseconds/div. One cycle is 4 div. or
> 20kHZ (?) (base-thread = 10ns, with reset = 1000).
> 
> -- 
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
> California, USA
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 22:05 -0500, Steve Stallings wrote:
> Kirk,
> 
> Oops, I now realize that you did get different
> result for the Startech card in EPP mode. Did
> you have a utility from Startech to set that
> board to EPP mode, or did you use one of the
> utilities from Jon Elson or a similar routine?
> 
> Steve Stallings 

I've used these three cards before with a Pluto-P and Pico UPC, so I
know they go into EPP. For the Rosewill/9815, the datasheet indicates
the pin in question has an open drain. I didn't find any indication of
switching to EPP would switch in a pull-up or totem-poll. My guess is
this is why some boards act the same way in EPP as SPP, they just don't
have the circuitry for driving the signal. It just happened that the
SIIG has enough drive that it did okay with the G540 in both SPP and
EPP. I don't have a datasheet for the SIIG or Startech, so I have no
information on their drive circuits.

I used my showport.c and Jon's pcisetup program to set ports to EPP.
There was mixed results here. Only the BIOS on my Intel motherboard
would set EPP or SPP. If I set the port to SPP, after boot up the
extended registers would not show up so the showport/pcisetup utilities
could not access the extended registers. The Startech worked like a
charm. I could load LinuxCNC and switch between SPP and EPP on the fly,
and have it show up on the scope. The other two cards showed no
difference because of the lack of output drivers.

Now that parport_pc works with LinuxCNC it comes in very handy. I can do
a "dmesg" and all of the port information for port number, base and
extended addresses comes up, no more guessing on what "lspci -v" address
does what. I was a little surprised at how handy Stepconfig is too.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 21:37 -0400, gene heskett wrote:
... snip
> What happens if the pump frequency is reduced to say 10% of what its set at 
> now?

I haven't tried that. If I disconnect the G540 so there is no load on
the parallel port pin, the charge pump is a clean square wave. I used
10x on the probe, if that makes a difference (I know just enough
scopenese to get by).

> Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of calibration 
> against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a low value series 
> resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf on the other side of 
> the resistor as a noise filter on that input, and likely on all inputs 
> since engineers have a tendency to 'step & repeat' for that stuff.

I tried to trace the traces on the G540. From the pump input wire
terminal, the trace goes right to an unmarked SMT capacitor. The other
side goes to the center of a three pin SMT something-or-other. My guess
is it is a transistor, maybe. Another of the three pins goes to the
opto-isolator. I gave up tracing at that point.

> I can't believe you would long tolerate a probe that far out of adjustment 
> Kirk, so that leaves the 540 apparently suffering from way too much noise 
> filtering on that input.  So the pumping frequency is so high the capacitor 
> used for noise filtering never has a chance to either fully charge, or to 
> fully discharge.  So you get insufficient swing.

The G540 manual specs a 10kHz minimum, so the filter doesn't need to
pass the low end. The large C is a bit of a mystery so far. One thing
that stands out to me is the rising edge is near vertical until about 2
Volts then dog legs up. I expected to have a continuous smooth curve
from O Volts until 5 Volts or when the pin switches.

> So drop the pump frequency to 10-20% of what it is now just for effects, 
> would be my advice.  If it drops out because the pump is then too slow, the 
> 540 needs a redesign tweak, at least according to Gene. :)
> 
> Cheers, Gene

My favorite fix so far is to recomend a buffer board on the parallel
port. It's the only thing a user could add that would cover most every
parallel port and the G540. A user would have a harder time fixing the
G540 or the port. I need to find a loose buffer card around here and try
that next. While I'm at it I'll check too see what happens with a slower
pump.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Jon Elson]

gene heskett wrote:
> Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of calibration 
> against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a low value series 
> resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf on the other side of 
> the resistor as a noise filter on that input, and likely on all inputs 
> since engineers have a tendency to 'step & repeat' for that stuff.
>   
It was described earlier that the charge pump input to the G540 is 
capacitively
coupled, and apparently has a large coupling cap.  If it is driving the 
base of a
BJT with the cap, that would require a pretty big one.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[gene heskett]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 11:55:24 PM Kirk Wallace did opine:

> On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 21:37 -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> ... snip
> 
> > What happens if the pump frequency is reduced to say 10% of what its
> > set at now?
> 
> I haven't tried that. If I disconnect the G540 so there is no load on
> the parallel port pin, the charge pump is a clean square wave. I used
> 10x on the probe, if that makes a difference (I know just enough
> scopenese to get by).
> 
> > Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of
> > calibration against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a
> > low value series resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf
> > on the other side of the resistor as a noise filter on that input,
> > and likely on all inputs since engineers have a tendency to 'step &
> > repeat' for that stuff.
> 
> I tried to trace the traces on the G540. From the pump input wire
> terminal, the trace goes right to an unmarked SMT capacitor. The other
> side goes to the center of a three pin SMT something-or-other. My guess
> is it is a transistor, maybe. Another of the three pins goes to the
> opto-isolator. I gave up tracing at that point.
> 
> > I can't believe you would long tolerate a probe that far out of
> > adjustment Kirk, so that leaves the 540 apparently suffering from way
> > too much noise filtering on that input.  So the pumping frequency is
> > so high the capacitor used for noise filtering never has a chance to
> > either fully charge, or to fully discharge.  So you get insufficient
> > swing.
> 
> The G540 manual specs a 10kHz minimum, so the filter doesn't need to
> pass the low end. The large C is a bit of a mystery so far. One thing
> that stands out to me is the rising edge is near vertical until about 2
> Volts then dog legs up. I expected to have a continuous smooth curve
> from O Volts until 5 Volts or when the pin switches.
> 
> > So drop the pump frequency to 10-20% of what it is now just for
> > effects, would be my advice.  If it drops out because the pump is
> > then too slow, the 540 needs a redesign tweak, at least according to
> > Gene. :)
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> My favorite fix so far is to recomend a buffer board on the parallel
> port. It's the only thing a user could add that would cover most every
> parallel port and the G540. A user would have a harder time fixing the
> G540 or the port. I need to find a loose buffer card around here and try
> that next. While I'm at it I'll check too see what happens with a slower
> pump.

My fav 'buffer' card ATM, is Arturo Duncans C1G, all opto-isolated with 
about a 10 ns relay time, and can src or sink 24 ma on any pin.  Tallying 
LED's present on all pins for instant troubleshooting.

 I think, might be a .com.  I am using one in both 
the mill and the lathe.  Once programmed with its flea clips, it Just 
Works(TM), with very close to a full 5 volt rail to rail output.  You can 
program the inputs to have a pull resistor to either rail.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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My web page: 
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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[gene heskett]

On Monday, April 16, 2012 12:05:22 AM Jon Elson did opine:

> gene heskett wrote:
> > Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of
> > calibration against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a
> > low value series resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf
> > on the other side of the resistor as a noise filter on that input,
> > and likely on all inputs since engineers have a tendency to 'step &
> > repeat' for that stuff.
> 
> It was described earlier that the charge pump input to the G540 is
> capacitively
> coupled, and apparently has a large coupling cap.  If it is driving the
> base of a
> BJT with the cap, that would require a pretty big one.
> 
> Jon
 
Gee Jon, its been yonks, as in 2+ decades since I last played with a BJT.  
Do I properly recall that the triggering voltage is more than a normal NPN 
transistor would have?

That could also explain the remark Kirk made about the first 2 volts, then 
a knee, like the load of the BJT's Junction loading kicking in as it 
switched on.

> 
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Peter]

 

Hi Gene,

You don't want to use an opto-isolation card with the G540 as it already
is opto-isolated.

Cheers,

 

peter

 

--- 
Peter Homann 
http://www.homanndesigns.com/store

On Mon 16/04/12 2:04 PM , gene heskett  wrote:On Sunday, April 15, 2012
11:55:24 PM Kirk Wallace did opine:

 > On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 21:37 -0400, gene heskett wrote:
 > ... snip
 >
 > > What happens if the pump frequency is reduced to say 10% of what its
 > > set at now?
 >
 > I haven't tried that. If I disconnect the G540 so there is no load on
 > the parallel port pin, the charge pump is a clean square wave. I used
 > 10x on the probe, if that makes a difference (I know just enough
 > scopenese to get by).
 >
 > > Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of
 > > calibration against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a
 > > low value series resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf
 > > on the other side of the resistor as a noise filter on that input,
 > > and likely on all inputs since engineers have a tendency to 'step 
 Doctors and lawyers must go to school for years and years, often with
 little sleep and with great sacrifice to their first wives.
 -- Roy G. Blount, Jr.


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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Gary P. Fiber]

I need to find the start of this thread. i am running a G540, an Intel 
M525MW board with Probotix steppers motors and all 3 axes move fine. I 
just need to calibrate them for proper distance and get the homing Hall 
effect sensors connected.I am not running the charge pump enabled in the 
G540. Am I missing something?

Gary K8IZ

On 4/15/2012 8:38 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 21:37 -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> ... snip
>> What happens if the pump frequency is reduced to say 10% of what its set at
>> now?
> I haven't tried that. If I disconnect the G540 so there is no load on
> the parallel port pin, the charge pump is a clean square wave. I used
> 10x on the probe, if that makes a difference (I know just enough
> scopenese to get by).
>
>> Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of calibration
>> against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a low value series
>> resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf on the other side of
>> the resistor as a noise filter on that input, and likely on all inputs
>> since engineers have a tendency to 'step&  repeat' for that stuff.
> I tried to trace the traces on the G540. From the pump input wire
> terminal, the trace goes right to an unmarked SMT capacitor. The other
> side goes to the center of a three pin SMT something-or-other. My guess
> is it is a transistor, maybe. Another of the three pins goes to the
> opto-isolator. I gave up tracing at that point.
>
>> I can't believe you would long tolerate a probe that far out of adjustment
>> Kirk, so that leaves the 540 apparently suffering from way too much noise
>> filtering on that input.  So the pumping frequency is so high the capacitor
>> used for noise filtering never has a chance to either fully charge, or to
>> fully discharge.  So you get insufficient swing.
> The G540 manual specs a 10kHz minimum, so the filter doesn't need to
> pass the low end. The large C is a bit of a mystery so far. One thing
> that stands out to me is the rising edge is near vertical until about 2
> Volts then dog legs up. I expected to have a continuous smooth curve
> from O Volts until 5 Volts or when the pin switches.
>
>> So drop the pump frequency to 10-20% of what it is now just for effects,
>> would be my advice.  If it drops out because the pump is then too slow, the
>> 540 needs a redesign tweak, at least according to Gene. :)
>>
>> Cheers, Gene
> My favorite fix so far is to recomend a buffer board on the parallel
> port. It's the only thing a user could add that would cover most every
> parallel port and the G540. A user would have a harder time fixing the
> G540 or the port. I need to find a loose buffer card around here and try
> that next. While I'm at it I'll check too see what happens with a slower
> pump.
>
>


-- 
Gary Fiber K8IZ
GROL PG-19-6691 with shipboard radar endorsement
Washington State resident


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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Peter]

 

 

Pretty sure that the SOT 3 device will be a reverse voltage protection
diode for the opto LED diode. pf caps are not  usually termed big ones.

I would ecpect that the charge pump circuitry is on the other side of the
opto.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter.

--- 
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http://www.homanndesigns.com/store

On Mon 16/04/12 1:43 PM , Jon Elson  wrote:gene heskett wrote:
 > Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of calibration
 > against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a low value
series
 > resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf on the other side
of
 > the resistor as a noise filter on that input, and likely on all inputs
 > since engineers have a tendency to 'step & repeat' for that stuff.
 >
 It was described earlier that the charge pump input to the G540 is
 capacitively
 coupled, and apparently has a large coupling cap. If it is driving the
 base of a
 BJT with the cap, that would require a pretty big one.

 Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Dave]

For whatever reason, the G540 charge pump input works fine with the 
Intel D525MW board and LinuxCNC.

Whether or not you use it is really up to you.

The Intel D525MW board may be the "cheap fix" to the G540 charge pump 
compatibility issue.  :-/

Dave

On 4/16/2012 12:23 AM, Gary P. Fiber wrote:
> I need to find the start of this thread. i am running a G540, an Intel
> M525MW board with Probotix steppers motors and all 3 axes move fine. I
> just need to calibrate them for proper distance and get the homing Hall
> effect sensors connected.I am not running the charge pump enabled in the
> G540. Am I missing something?
>
> Gary K8IZ
>
> On 4/15/2012 8:38 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 21:37 -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>> ... snip
>>  
>>> What happens if the pump frequency is reduced to say 10% of what its set at
>>> now?
>>>
>> I haven't tried that. If I disconnect the G540 so there is no load on
>> the parallel port pin, the charge pump is a clean square wave. I used
>> 10x on the probe, if that makes a difference (I know just enough
>> scopenese to get by).
>>
>>  
>>> Looking at the scope traces, either the probe is way out of calibration
>>> against the scopes own test square wave, or the 540 has a low value series
>>> resistor, 33-120 ohm range, with several hundred pf on the other side of
>>> the resistor as a noise filter on that input, and likely on all inputs
>>> since engineers have a tendency to 'step&   repeat' for that stuff.
>>>
>> I tried to trace the traces on the G540. From the pump input wire
>> terminal, the trace goes right to an unmarked SMT capacitor. The other
>> side goes to the center of a three pin SMT something-or-other. My guess
>> is it is a transistor, maybe. Another of the three pins goes to the
>> opto-isolator. I gave up tracing at that point.
>>
>>  
>>> I can't believe you would long tolerate a probe that far out of adjustment
>>> Kirk, so that leaves the 540 apparently suffering from way too much noise
>>> filtering on that input.  So the pumping frequency is so high the capacitor
>>> used for noise filtering never has a chance to either fully charge, or to
>>> fully discharge.  So you get insufficient swing.
>>>
>> The G540 manual specs a 10kHz minimum, so the filter doesn't need to
>> pass the low end. The large C is a bit of a mystery so far. One thing
>> that stands out to me is the rising edge is near vertical until about 2
>> Volts then dog legs up. I expected to have a continuous smooth curve
>> from O Volts until 5 Volts or when the pin switches.
>>
>>  
>>> So drop the pump frequency to 10-20% of what it is now just for effects,
>>> would be my advice.  If it drops out because the pump is then too slow, the
>>> 540 needs a redesign tweak, at least according to Gene. :)
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene
>>>
>> My favorite fix so far is to recomend a buffer board on the parallel
>> port. It's the only thing a user could add that would cover most every
>> parallel port and the G540. A user would have a harder time fixing the
>> G540 or the port. I need to find a loose buffer card around here and try
>> that next. While I'm at it I'll check too see what happens with a slower
>> pump.
>>
>>
>>  
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Kirk Wallace]

I tried a 75AC541 buffer on the SIIG card:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_buf.jpg 

and then tried it unbuffered at 1kHz:
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/G540/g540_siig_1kHz.jpg 

I got a green LED on both. The SIIG worked at 5kHz unbuffered too, but
peaked 1 Volt higher at the lower frequency. I made a mistake earlier by
saying the tests where at 20kHz, they were actually at 5kHz. (4 div. x
50us = 200us = .0002 , 1/.0002 = 5kHz)

I put 1ns in Stepconfig but it seems other parameters are limiting
the base thread to 10ns.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Dave, Storebro260

[Roger Holmquist]

16 apr 2012 kl. 03:38 skrev emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net:

> Is there a small keyboard on that Spindle drive with some led  
> displays?
>

Thanks for your response Dave!

I don't think i have any such devices, there is some LED-lights but  
no displays on some cards and no visible keyboard.
Where should it be situated, on one of the PCBs?

The PCB-cards are stacked in a foldable rack interconnected with some  
flatcables, very servicefriendly.
Included in ths rack are the thyristors for the spindle engine and  
maybe X and Z motors, I haven't checked that part up yet.

Nor can I do it this week but I guess next, have some other buinesses  
to handle!
On the other hand I have all the schematics and PCB-layouts   
available for the motor drive system.

/ Roger

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Re: [Emc-users] G540 Test Update

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sun, 2012-04-15 at 21:23 -0700, Gary P. Fiber wrote:
> I need to find the start of this thread. i am running a G540, an Intel 
> M525MW board with Probotix steppers motors and all 3 axes move fine. I 
> just need to calibrate them for proper distance and get the homing Hall 
> effect sensors connected.I am not running the charge pump enabled in the 
> G540. Am I missing something?
> 
> Gary K8IZ

Dan from the DIY-CNC list was having trouble with trying LinuxCNC. He
has a lot of experience with Mach, so expected his Mach set up should
work as-is with just the software change. His setup (I think) is a PC
with a G540 directly connected to the motherboard port. In trying to
sort out what the problem is, a "feature" became apparent.

Mach calls for the parallel port to be in EPP mode. To LinuxCNC'ers, EPP
is only used for two way communication with FPGA cards. It seems
Geckodrive calls for EPP as a trick to turn on drive circuits in the
parallel port chip to give a boost to the charge pump signal on pin 16.

My experiments so far indicate that parallel ports vary in pin drive
capability and in its use. Some might work with EPP, others might get by
with a pull-up resistor. For setups using the motherboard port, the BIOS
is where to set EPP and has a good chance of working. PCI cards are
pretty iffy, and what works (EPP, pull-up, buffer) can vary. PCI cards
can be set to EPP with a utility app, but may still not work.

The reason you may want to use the charge pump on the G540 is to keep
the G540 from moving anything until LinuxCNC wakes up, starts the pump
and takes control of the parallel port. Without the pump, the G540 can
be active while the PC boots and toggles various pins on the parallel
port, before LinuxCNC takes over. This can be extended to other parts of
you machine too.
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?About_Charge_Pumps 

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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