Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
The book Notations 21 is about to appear. The homepage is here: http://www.notations21.net/ there is a review of it here, but there is hardly any reference to non-american composers in what claims to be an international representation of trends in recent decades... even though there is a high proportion of US composers, i find this very dubious. http://www.nysun.com/article/61847 Notations21 participating composers; men and women... well reknowned icons... emerging artists... young and old...come from all around the globe from countries such as USA, Denmark, UK, Egypt, Germany, Canada, Austria, Australia, Switzerland, Greece, Argentina, Scotland, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Chile, France, China, Columbia, Nigeria, Israel, Hungary, India, Sweden, Italy, Switzerland, Peru, New Zealand, The Phillippines, Taiwan and South Africa...and more are on their way. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
At 11:52 -0500 3/4/08, John Howell wrote: It's pretty obvious in hindsight (and crystal clear from an historical point of view) that the development of new kinds of notation through the 20th century, for and by the composers who believed themselves to be cutting edge on the non-pop side of music, was driven by the fact that copyright laws required a composition to be notated on paper to be eligible for copyright protection. (And I'd be interested in whether Jeff and Dennis B-K would agree with that summary, simplistic though it is.) there is no foundation whatsoever for this idea. in the case of pop, i think your argument is a little off the mark, but am not familiar enough with pop to talk about it with any authority: perhaps the piece would have to be notated to be registered for copyright, but in such cases i would expect the notation to be extremely traditional because the more unfamiliar the notation the more difficult it is to justify that symbol X really does mean play sound X. new forms of notation don't always have an established tradition to rely on and therefore would be at the very least inefficient as references in any copyright dispute. the same symbol means different things in different contexts and by different composers; this is not the case with pop notation. have a look at a haubenstock-ramati score and ask yourself what the identity of the piece is in relation to the notation; have a look at a madonna chart and ask the same. consider that in the realm of copyright protection. even the most cursory scanning of even the poorest books about music (of which there are many) since the early 20th, or music since 1945 (the two typical measuring references) show that the development of notation is a result of changing aesthetic interests, changes in performance protocol and musical / sonic experimentation and variation in the traditional performer-composer roles in some cases as well. an interest in improv and questioning of the supposed interpretive inflexibility inherent to the scores of some composers also led to the use of more graphic notation. the situation is far more complex than can be summarized in email conversation, so i would hope that your remark is only a thought intended to open the discussion rather than some sort of absolute claim as to the nature of notation in contemporary music that a comment starting off with it's pretty obvious in hindsight would seem to suggest. i'll assume the former and continue... So my question is, since the rules changed on January 1, 1978 (in the U.S.), and a composition is now protected by copyright the instant it exists in fixed form, has the development of new notations and new notational conventions stopped or slowed down in favor of other kinds of fixed forms? I would think that it should have, but I don't know that it has. on the one hand, we are no longer in the early stages of new approaches to musical notation, where such practices would seem novel, out there, or deemed experimental (implicitly suggesting impermanence although not neceessarily meant so), and on the other hand, so much has been done that it is really difficult today to develop any new symbols -- and possibly performance techniques -- that have not yet been used. there would also seem to be at the moment a trend to more deeply explore the large range of approaches that developed so rapidly in the past 40 years rather than develop new and unheard-of techniques of notation / performance protocol. on a related topic: what is needed now is a resumé of what has been done and an attempt to standardize notation -- as far as this is possible. so far we have the ghent conference, which was done too early and has not benefitted from any follow-up amendments: it remains only a partial solution to the problem. the typical problem with standardization is that it is too inflexible. the larger notational reform that is needed today is one which articulates a system with potential alternative situations / notations and which is not incestuously regional, as some proposals for notation standards have been. (reminder: i'm talking about **recent** trends in notation) you can't talk about notation without bringing performance and composition into the discussion. this is true since any form of notation has existed, whether written or oral. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
On Mar 6, 2008, at 1:47 PM, shirling neueweise wrote: in the case of pop, i think your argument is a little off the mark, but am not familiar enough with pop to talk about it with any authority: perhaps the piece would have to be notated to be registered for copyright, but in such cases i would expect the notation to be extremely traditional because the more unfamiliar the notation the more difficult it is to justify that symbol X really does mean play sound X. In the case of pop, the only things that would have to be notated would be the melody and the lyrics, and only approximately at that, as those are the only parts that are copyrightable. Exact sounds, drum beats and the like (and even the rough chord symbols, never mind exact voicings!) are considered to be part of the arrangement and are left up to the band under the musical director. These things change over the course of time anyway, as styles change and musicians rotate. It is just as well that the copyright rule was changed to not requiring notated sheet music. Even in the case of the most highly- improvised pop arrangements, the real version of the tune is the recording, not the sheet music. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
At 9:45 AM -0600 3/4/08, Patrick Sheehan wrote: What does a copyist do? Being a professional copyist, having done work for James Galway and wind composer Roger Cichy, I've never had to edit anything that they have given me, as I have just reset editions that have been given to me. However, there are time when I have worked with other clients, one vocalist in particular, who knew nothing about notation, and sent me typed-out syllabic lyrics and note letter names, along with a CD, and I had to create a 7-piece score (with vocals) for use as a sacred psalm. So, in that case, it was more than just copying. I believe it's the copyists job to catch those errors, if there are typos or tessitura errors and such. Anyone want to revisit this discussion? I don't think we need to reopen it, but I do have one comment and one question. Your note points out something very important, and I don't recall its being brought up. What does a copyist do? is entirely dependent on What does a composer (or arranger or would-be composer or arranger) do? In the case of your vocalist, you were obviously functioning as an arranger and not as a copyist, because your client lacked the training to do so. In the case of the established way a musical theater or motion picture score is put together, there's an established hierarchy reaching from composer to arranger(s) to orchestrator(s) to copyist(s) to proof reader(s). But in the movie soundtracks that started turning up in the '80s, which were made up of individual songs recorded by individual bands and vocalists, there may never have been any arrangement on paper because each band may have made up their own head arrangements in the recording studio. The way I put it to my vocal arranging students (and yes, vocal arranging is a specialty that not all instrumental arrangers are qualified in) is that there's no hard and fast definition of what an arranger does, because s/he does whatever is necessary for a given project. The same thing applies to being a copyist. The responsibilities can and will change from one project to the next. In my own case, I think of myself as an arranger (even when I end up functioning as a composer), because that's my strength. Any copying or engraving I do is simply a means to get my charts in front of live singers or players, not my profession. And I'm not obsessed with playback because recorded tracks are not the product I produce. If I were working in the beauty pageant side of the business, or in producing tracks for educational arrangements, I would have to be obsessed with playback, but I'm not. OK, now for my question. It's pretty obvious in hindsight (and crystal clear from an historical point of view) that the development of new kinds of notation through the 20th century, for and by the composers who believed themselves to be cutting edge on the non-pop side of music, was driven by the fact that copyright laws required a composition to be notated on paper to be eligible for copyright protection. (And I'd be interested in whether Jeff and Dennis B-K would agree with that summary, simplistic though it is.) So my question is, since the rules changed on January 1, 1978 (in the U.S.), and a composition is now protected by copyright the instant it exists in fixed form, has the development of new notations and new notational conventions stopped or slowed down in favor of other kinds of fixed forms? I would think that it should have, but I don't know that it has. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
John Howell wrote, on 3/4/2008 11:52 AM: It's pretty obvious in hindsight (and crystal clear from an historical point of view) that the development of new kinds of notation through the 20th century, for and by the composers who believed themselves to be cutting edge on the non-pop side of music, was driven by the fact that copyright laws required a composition to be notated on paper to be eligible for copyright protection. (And I'd be interested in whether Jeff and Dennis B-K would agree with that summary, simplistic though it is.) I don't agree with this conclusion at all. Notation progressed intensely throughout the 20th century because the older notation system was broken with respect to notating performance techniques, forms, tunings, expressive concepts, and performance strategies. None of these had to do with copyright. In pop, perhaps yes, but in nonpop, not to my knowledge -- and I'd be interested if you can find any composers who referenced absence of copyright protection as their reason for having used new notation before 1978. So my question is, since the rules changed on January 1, 1978 (in the U.S.), and a composition is now protected by copyright the instant it exists in fixed form, has the development of new notations and new notational conventions stopped or slowed down in favor of other kinds of fixed forms? I would think that it should have, but I don't know that it has. The book Notations 21 is about to appear. The homepage is here: http://www.notations21.net/ Order from Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Notations-21-Theresa-Sauer/dp/0979554640/ (I'm supposedly represented in this book -- I haven't seen galleys or a published copy yet -- but chances are I will look like the most conservative composer among them!) Development has only slowed down in its visibility because of the sheer mass of computer-set music going on with 19th century notation programs like Finale and Sibelius. It is still not easy to produce publishable graphical notation especially -- and not cheap, since color is now a significant part of the notation. The struggle with using notation programs for new nonpop has been well documented here and on many websites and blogs, mine included. But notational invention has not withdrawn from the musical scene whatsoever -- and in fact, because traditional part of notation is now so easy to execute, the presence on new and graphical elements is all the more likely. For example, my own Tirkiinistra: 25 Landscape Preludes for piano are traditionally notated, except for the dynamics and shape, which are based on color photographs placed on each score page. The concepts and sounds in my series Lunar Cascade in Serial Time for tenor guitar can only be executed because of the embedded photos and graphical elements. Must go. Have a book deadline to meet (not about music). But do look at the Notations 21 site and grab a copy of the book when it's out. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
What does a copyist do? Being a professional copyist, having done work for James Galway and wind composer Roger Cichy, I've never had to edit anything that they have given me, as I have just reset editions that have been given to me. However, there are time when I have worked with other clients, one vocalist in particular, who knew nothing about notation, and sent me typed-out syllabic lyrics and note letter names, along with a CD, and I had to create a 7-piece score (with vocals) for use as a sacred psalm. So, in that case, it was more than just copying. I believe it's the copyists job to catch those errors, if there are typos or tessitura errors and such. Anyone want to revisit this discussion? - Original Message - From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? shirling neueweise wrote: From a copyist, composers generally [expect] their score to be copied exactly as they gave it, no more and no less. i won't say where this came from other than to mention it is from a composer and was sent to an experienced and diligent copyist i know. i know there are copyists that also feel this way, but i've always felt that the copyist's most important role is to improve the performers' relation with the music, which means in some cases slight editing and corrections (notational standards, obvious typos/errors etc.) and in others actually arguing points with the composer that you know to be true, because you have spoken to dozens upon dozens of composers, performers, copyists and musicologists and have gleaned and considered various perspectives on notation standards, tendencies, alterations etc. and have a braod understanding of what the norms are and when it is pertinent to break them and when it is not. further, in my view -- as a composer and as a copyist -- the composer is not always the person who knows best about their scores exactly because of the fact that they have spent so many months on the composition that they cannot distance themselves from things that actually hinder a proper rendition of the score by a performer who has not spent the same kind of obsessive focus (tunnel vision?) on the score. (this is not a comment on performer disengagement, that is another discussion altogether). but i'm just one measly copyist, what do the collective you think about all this? i'll start the list: 1. poor composer. 2. I think that generally whenever anybody says generally that whatever they say is only true in a general sense and when examined more closely it often falls apart. For *some* composers that original quote is true, but for many others, they welcome the corrections that copyists can provide. And arguing points from the perspective of a performer to help a composer clarify what is being communicated on the printed page should, in my opinion, be welcome by any and all composers. As long as the copyist realizes which sort of composer he/she is dealing with and ultimately adheres to the client is always right (until the check clears) mentality. Composers need to be allowed their idiosyncracies -- otherwise what will the musicologists of the 2200s have to argue about and write dissertations about? ;-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
John Howell wrote: At 6:07 AM -0500 2/27/08, dhbailey wrote: Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with the extension on the low string? It would certainly be a different tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it? Well, don't the extensions actually fret the string mechanically? (No, I've never actually look at one up close.) If so, you'd still have the open string quality, and of course you'd have the pitch. What you wouldn't have would be the slight change in string tension, which might or might not be audible, and which R. probably did NOT make the basis of his request. As David pointed out, bass gamba players routinely tune their low D strings down to C when necessary, just as classical guitarists often tune their low E down to D, all without damaging the instruments or even changing the pitch of the other strings. This is not rocket science! John Yes, a half-step on a single string shouldn't create any havoc on most string instruments or result in moving bridges or destabilization which needs a week or more to regain. however, more drastic scordatura, possibly involving all strings, or as was mentioned in one piece detuning to where the bridge falls over is quite a different animal which could easily antagonize many string players. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Ray Horton wrote: I read somewhere that Respighi had some instruments made for the piece, but I don't know where I read it. The parts (3 pairs, sop, alto, ten/bass) say something like Buccina (flicorno basso) etc. I believe the alto parts do give flugelhorn in parenthesis. The parts are usually played on trumpets and trombones, sometimes with flugel in the middle. I assume trombones on the lower parts because players are easier to find and projection is easier than with valve instruments. The nightingale sound in the third movement specified a certain 78 RPM record of the day (now on CD). I'm sorry I got fairly defensive on the scordatura issue. I didn't know why people seemed to be blaming me for reporting and interpreting what string professionals told me on the subject. It seems like people [snip] I, too, was surprised that people were shooting the messenger. It's not as if trombonists are afraid of scordatura string parts. ;-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 1:46 PM -0500 2/26/08, Ray Horton wrote: And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes! That's very valid, Ray, but it really breaks down into two separate questions (at least!). (1) What, exactly, was the Roman Buccina; and (2) What, exactly, did Respighi want, expect, or intend. (Assuming, of course that (a) there was no Italian Historic Brass Society building and playing Roman brass instruments in Respighi's day, and (b) he wasn't serious about the instruments themselves, but wanted a certain distinctive sound.) Stolba, in The Development of Western Music: A History, says briefly: A variety of instruments existed in ancient Rome. Aerophones included the animal-horn bucina and several instruments made from bronze: the tuba, a type of long, straight trumpet (made in sections that it together) equipped with a conical mouthpiece; the large G-shaped cornu, also with a conical mouthpiece; and the J-shaped lituus. Both the cornu and the lituus were of Etruscan origin. On the other hand, the Wikipedia article (citing the 11th edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica) says: The Buccina (also Bucina) is a brass instrument used in the ancient Roman army. It was originally designed as a tube measuring some 11 to 12 feet in length, of narrow cylindrical bore, and played by means of a cup-shaped mouthpiece. The tube is bent round upon itself from the mouthpiece to the bell in the shape of a broad C and is strengthened by means of a bar across the curve, which the performer grasps while playing, in order to steady the instrument; the bell curves over his head or shoulder. The buccina was used for the announcement of night watches and various other purposes in the camp. The instrument is the ancestor of both the trumpet and the trombone. The German word for trombone, Posaune, is linguistically derived from Buccina. In the final section of his orchestral work Pines of Rome (The Pines of the Appian Way), Respighi calls for six instruments of different ranges notated as Buccine (Italian plural), although he expected them to be played on modern saxhorns or flugelhorns. So we've got two descriptions, one of an animal-horn (i.e. conical) shape and the other of a narrow cylindrical bore. Not much help!! And was Britannica reading Respighi's mind regarding saxhorns or flugelhorns (conical or semi-conical), or did he actually indicate this in writing or conversation somewhere? And of course the eternal question, could valveless instruments of whatever bore, dependent on the natural harmonic series, have played the notes Respighi wrote?! (Actually the description of an 11' or 12' instrument with a narrow bore does suggest that it could be played in the upper partials.) As I see it, the call for 6 buccinae (Latin plural) was never meant to be more than allegorical, while the instructions to the cellists to do something he knew they were entirely capable of doing was a specific request. And isn't this the piece that also calls for a nightingale as an original instrument, or am I thinking of some other piece? How are the buccinae parts usually played? Saxhorns? Wagner tubas? (That would be kind of a neat sound!) John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Darcy James Argue wrote: Ray, I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have the instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. I would love to hear a performance with buccini. But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for a performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a specific spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a big goddamn deal to follow the composers instructions in this instance. Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with the extension on the low string? It would certainly be a different tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Hmm--would be interesting to see who (if anyone) uses the 78-rpm disc for that Respighi specified for the Janiculum section. (Are you listening, Roger Norrington?) ajr At 1:46 PM -0500 2/26/08, Ray Horton wrote: And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes! That's very valid, Ray, but it really breaks down into two separate questions (at least!). (1) What, exactly, was the Roman Buccina; and (2) What, exactly, did Respighi want, expect, or intend. (Assuming, of course that (a) there was no Italian Historic Brass Society building and playing Roman brass instruments in Respighi's day, and (b) he wasn't serious about the instruments themselves, but wanted a certain distinctive sound.) Stolba, in The Development of Western Music: A History, says briefly: A variety of instruments existed in ancient Rome. Aerophones included the animal-horn bucina and several instruments made from bronze: the tuba, a type of long, straight trumpet (made in sections that it together) equipped with a conical mouthpiece; the large G-shaped cornu, also with a conical mouthpiece; and the J-shaped lituus. Both the cornu and the lituus were of Etruscan origin. On the other hand, the Wikipedia article (citing the 11th edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica) says: The Buccina (also Bucina) is a brass instrument used in the ancient Roman army. It was originally designed as a tube measuring some 11 to 12 feet in length, of narrow cylindrical bore, and played by means of a cup-shaped mouthpiece. The tube is bent round upon itself from the mouthpiece to the bell in the shape of a broad C and is strengthened by means of a bar across the curve, which the performer grasps while playing, in order to steady the instrument; the bell curves over his head or shoulder. The buccina was used for the announcement of night watches and various other purposes in the camp. The instrument is the ancestor of both the trumpet and the trombone. The German word for trombone, Posaune, is linguistically derived from Buccina. In the final section of his orchestral work Pines of Rome (The Pines of the Appian Way), Respighi calls for six instruments of different ranges notated as Buccine (Italian plural), although he expected them to be played on modern saxhorns or flugelhorns. So we've got two descriptions, one of an animal-horn (i.e. conical) shape and the other of a narrow cylindrical bore. Not much help!! And was Britannica reading Respighi's mind regarding saxhorns or flugelhorns (conical or semi-conical), or did he actually indicate this in writing or conversation somewhere? And of course the eternal question, could valveless instruments of whatever bore, dependent on the natural harmonic series, have played the notes Respighi wrote?! (Actually the description of an 11' or 12' instrument with a narrow bore does suggest that it could be played in the upper partials.) As I see it, the call for 6 buccinae (Latin plural) was never meant to be more than allegorical, while the instructions to the cellists to do something he knew they were entirely capable of doing was a specific request. And isn't this the piece that also calls for a nightingale as an original instrument, or am I thinking of some other piece? How are the buccinae parts usually played? Saxhorns? Wagner tubas? (That would be kind of a neat sound!) John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 6:07 AM -0500 2/27/08, dhbailey wrote: Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with the extension on the low string? It would certainly be a different tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it? Well, don't the extensions actually fret the string mechanically? (No, I've never actually look at one up close.) If so, you'd still have the open string quality, and of course you'd have the pitch. What you wouldn't have would be the slight change in string tension, which might or might not be audible, and which R. probably did NOT make the basis of his request. As David pointed out, bass gamba players routinely tune their low D strings down to C when necessary, just as classical guitarists often tune their low E down to D, all without damaging the instruments or even changing the pitch of the other strings. This is not rocket science! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 27 Feb 2008 at 11:47, John Howell wrote: As David pointed out, bass gamba players routinely tune their low D strings down to C when necessary, just as classical guitarists often tune their low E down to D, all without damaging the instruments or even changing the pitch of the other strings. This is not rocket science! The fact that both examples there are in the guitar family (and have frets) should not be taken as some kind of special case. The fact is, a gamba is much more unstable tuning-wise than a modern instrument (because of the all-gut strings and low string tension), but I have tuned down to C and back up more than once within a single concert. It just isn't an issue. Of course, with gambas, one has to tune between every piece, anyway, and they are still out of tune. ;) -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
The basses have a low B. So he wants those with the low C extension to detune to B. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 27 Feb 2008, at 6:07 AM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Ray, I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have the instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. I would love to hear a performance with buccini. But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for a performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a specific spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a big goddamn deal to follow the composers instructions in this instance. Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with the extension on the low string? It would certainly be a different tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
I read somewhere that Respighi had some instruments made for the piece, but I don't know where I read it. The parts (3 pairs, sop, alto, ten/bass) say something like Buccina (flicorno basso) etc. I believe the alto parts do give flugelhorn in parenthesis. The parts are usually played on trumpets and trombones, sometimes with flugel in the middle. I assume trombones on the lower parts because players are easier to find and projection is easier than with valve instruments. The nightingale sound in the third movement specified a certain 78 RPM record of the day (now on CD). I'm sorry I got fairly defensive on the scordatura issue. I didn't know why people seemed to be blaming me for reporting and interpreting what string professionals told me on the subject. It seems like people interested in writing and arranging music would want to know, without shooting the messenger. This is an orchestra known worldwide for playing new music (somewhat in remission now, unfortunately), and not afraid of new techniques - check out the recording of _Suite for Symphonic Strings_ by Lou Harrison, for example, which has the cellos using guitar picks, etc., just for one example that comes to mind. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra John Howell wrote: At 1:46 PM -0500 2/26/08, Ray Horton wrote: And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes! That's very valid, Ray, but it really breaks down into two separate questions (at least!). (1) What, exactly, was the Roman Buccina; and (2) What, exactly, did Respighi want, expect, or intend. (Assuming, of course that (a) there was no Italian Historic Brass Society building and playing Roman brass instruments in Respighi's day, and (b) he wasn't serious about the instruments themselves, but wanted a certain distinctive sound.) Stolba, in The Development of Western Music: A History, says briefly: A variety of instruments existed in ancient Rome. Aerophones included the animal-horn bucina and several instruments made from bronze: the tuba, a type of long, straight trumpet (made in sections that it together) equipped with a conical mouthpiece; the large G-shaped cornu, also with a conical mouthpiece; and the J-shaped lituus. Both the cornu and the lituus were of Etruscan origin. On the other hand, the Wikipedia article (citing the 11th edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica) says: The Buccina (also Bucina) is a brass instrument used in the ancient Roman army. It was originally designed as a tube measuring some 11 to 12 feet in length, of narrow cylindrical bore, and played by means of a cup-shaped mouthpiece. The tube is bent round upon itself from the mouthpiece to the bell in the shape of a broad C and is strengthened by means of a bar across the curve, which the performer grasps while playing, in order to steady the instrument; the bell curves over his head or shoulder. The buccina was used for the announcement of night watches and various other purposes in the camp. The instrument is the ancestor of both the trumpet and the trombone. The German word for trombone, Posaune, is linguistically derived from Buccina. In the final section of his orchestral work Pines of Rome (The Pines of the Appian Way), Respighi calls for six instruments of different ranges notated as Buccine (Italian plural), although he expected them to be played on modern saxhorns or flugelhorns. So we've got two descriptions, one of an animal-horn (i.e. conical) shape and the other of a narrow cylindrical bore. Not much help!! And was Britannica reading Respighi's mind regarding saxhorns or flugelhorns (conical or semi-conical), or did he actually indicate this in writing or conversation somewhere? And of course the eternal question, could valveless instruments of whatever bore, dependent on the natural harmonic series, have played the notes Respighi wrote?! (Actually the description of an 11' or 12' instrument with a narrow bore does suggest that it could be played in the upper partials.) As I see it, the call for 6 buccinae (Latin plural) was never meant to be more than allegorical, while the instructions to the cellists to do something he knew they were entirely capable of doing was a specific request. And isn't this the piece that also calls for a nightingale as an original instrument, or am I thinking of some other piece? How are the buccinae parts usually played? Saxhorns? Wagner tubas? (That would be kind of a neat sound!) John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Nobody's blaming you for anything, Ray. The only thing under attack here is the idea that retuning a string or two by a semitone will harm someone's instrument, a belief that does not seem to be founded in reality. Nobody doubts that this belief exists -- that's why we are complaining about it. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 27 Feb 2008, at 1:27 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I didn't know why people seemed to be blaming me for reporting and interpreting what string professionals told me on the subject. It seems like people interested in writing and arranging music would want to know, without shooting the messenger. This is an orchestra known worldwide for playing new music (somewhat in remission now, unfortunately), and not afraid of new techniques - check out the recording of _Suite for Symphonic Strings_ by Lou Harrison, for example, which has the cellos using guitar picks, etc., just for one example that comes to mind. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
No matter what happens, I'll be OK. Darcy James Argue wrote: Nobody's blaming you for anything, Ray. The only thing under attack here is the idea that retuning a string or two by a semitone will harm someone's instrument, a belief that does not seem to be founded in reality. Nobody doubts that this belief exists -- that's why we are complaining about it. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 27 Feb 2008, at 1:27 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I didn't know why people seemed to be blaming me for reporting and interpreting what string professionals told me on the subject. It seems like people interested in writing and arranging music would want to know, without shooting the messenger. This is an orchestra known worldwide for playing new music (somewhat in remission now, unfortunately), and not afraid of new techniques - check out the recording of _Suite for Symphonic Strings_ by Lou Harrison, for example, which has the cellos using guitar picks, etc., just for one example that comes to mind. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Not to mention the low b-flat(s) for the basses in Frau ohne Schatten. ajr The basses have a low B. So he wants those with the low C extension to detune to B. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 27 Feb 2008, at 6:07 AM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Ray, I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have the instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. I would love to hear a performance with buccini. But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for a performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a specific spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a big goddamn deal to follow the composers instructions in this instance. Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with the extension on the low string? It would certainly be a different tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 10:37 AM -0600 2/27/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm--would be interesting to see who (if anyone) uses the 78-rpm disc for that Respighi specified for the Janiculum section. (Are you listening, Roger Norrington?) According to Daniels IV, the recording is supplied with the (presumably rental) parts. What the recording format is, in this day and age, is a good question, but I doubt that it is still the original 78 rpm shellac disc (which very few people would actually be able to play any more). On the other hand, I once received some Riccordi rental parts on age-yellowed paper that looked as if they dated from the same time as that 78 recording!!! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Just listen to the example (Pines, mvt 4) and get back to me. RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B without vibrato?) Pizz, very soft, not so much. Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway -- folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.) What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their bridges off? It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated any other way. Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer should always get exactly what he/she wants... Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to play the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally substituting some other effect is not. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes! Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B without vibrato?) Pizz, very soft, not so much. Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway -- folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.) What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their bridges off? It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated any other way. Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer should always get exactly what he/she wants... Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to play the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally substituting some other effect is not. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Ray, I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have the instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. I would love to hear a performance with buccini. But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for a performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a specific spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a big goddamn deal to follow the composers instructions in this instance. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 26 Feb 2008, at 1:46 PM, Ray Horton wrote: And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes! Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B without vibrato?) Pizz, very soft, not so much. Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway -- folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.) What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their bridges off? It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated any other way. Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer should always get exactly what he/she wants... Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to play the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally substituting some other effect is not. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
OK Ray Darcy James Argue wrote: Ray, I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have the instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. I would love to hear a performance with buccini. But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for a performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a specific spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a big goddamn deal to follow the composers instructions in this instance. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 26 Feb 2008, at 1:46 PM, Ray Horton wrote: And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes! Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B without vibrato?) Pizz, very soft, not so much. Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway -- folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.) What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their bridges off? It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated any other way. Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer should always get exactly what he/she wants... Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to play the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally substituting some other effect is not. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote: As far as scordatura for winds That phrase makes my head hurt. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
The Young Musicians Foundation orchestra in L.A, performed Il distratto with Michael T. Thomas at the helm in the late '60s. I don't recall any particular problems, though I was watching from the horn section. Bruce Clausen - Original Message - From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:04 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura And you've seen it played, by a pro symphony, when? RBH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And don't forget Haydn't Distratto (Symphony #60) in terms of re-tuning written into the music! ajr I think the phrase the exception that proves the rule comes to mind. Thanks for the example. RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Ray, IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE tuning. The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021s=143441 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her good instrument, and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=45Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. RBH shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.0/1296 - Release Date: 2/24/2008 12:19 PM ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 1:13 AM -0500 2/25/08, Ray Horton wrote: As far as listing unusual techniques and unusual instruments in the auditions, it depends on how many players you want to eliminate from considering the auditions. That's what I sort of figured. (Of course the teaching jobs I've held both here and at Indiana would NEVER have been advertised as they ended up. NOBODY does the strange variety of things I've done!) Sax is a good example of what I mean. Clarinet players often play sax, orchestras often need sax for pops and the occasional French piece. The next time your orchestra has a second or third clarinet opening, should you list sax as a requirement? Sure, you could, and you will get some applicants, and probably some good ones, but you won't get as many good clarinet applicants, and possibly not the best clarinet applicants. Do you want the best clarinet player you can get playing every day, or do you want to save money on those occasions when you have to hire a sax? I hear you, Ray. The regional orchestra I played in until recently does the occasional Pops concert with a star (or at least someone who passes as a star in central Virginia; hey, we've even had Jimmy Dean!). We had one such a couple of years ago, and it did call for a sax section, which was mostly filled by orchestra members who had sax as a double. Well, the bottom line was that we had 5 sax players, but we didn't have a section. And we had someone playing 1st alto, but we didn't have a lead player! Also, on that concert, the star's conductor had us set up all over the stage in a configuration where nobody could hear what they were used to hearing. In point of fact, he had us separated the way you would in a recording studio, and of course we were all miked. We violas were stuck behind the drum set, and had no chance of getting a section blend with the rest of the strings. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Well, there were the quarter-tone-flat-to-A-440 woodwinds in John Eaton's operas years ago... ajr On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote: As far as scordatura for winds That phrase makes my head hurt. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Gee~ I was on the stage crew for a couple of those, especially Heracles, IIRC (at least for the destruction of the sets). Between the rehearsal pianos tuned flat (some of 'em anyway) and a set of confused singers who were making it up as they went along, and the flat winds...what a circus! The stage crew that eventually destroyed those sets did so with a vengeance I had never seen before and haven't seen since. Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon 25-Feb-08 11:56 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura Well, there were the quarter-tone-flat-to-A-440 woodwinds in John Eaton's operas years ago... ajr On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote: As far as scordatura for winds That phrase makes my head hurt. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Well, low B isn't exactly a staple for trombones--not quite a pedal tone, and not that versatile as a first harmonic. Esp for tenor 'bone. I've always found it worthwhile to work around the challenges of instrumental limitations to solve my problems--after, look at what Haydn pulled out of the same necessity! (Also, St. Louis Symphony did program the Distratto a buncha years ago--I didn't get to hear it, though.) ajr I had answered this before, as Carl probably assumed a double-valve bass trombone (which is standard now), but I just saw a show today where the tenor trombonist had to play a low B FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER! He is 47 and has held first trombone positions in major orchestras and played every kind of gig under the sun, and he said he didn't even know if his valve slide still moved until he had to pull it. I just thought it was funny that this subject came up, and the same week a guy with so much experience had never seen a written low B before on a gig. Of course, he IS a tenor trombonist, but just the same! C. On Feb 24, 2008, at 8:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra? ajr John Howell wrote: OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? To E?? I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ... what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
And I was in the audience for one of those performances, and can't say that all the trouble was actually worth it!!! Definitely not a composer for the masses (I'm tempted to say definitely not a composer, but that would be unkind), but hey, he married a gorgeous woman with a breathtaking mezzo voice. (Like other opera composers we could mention!) John At 12:15 PM -0500 2/25/08, Williams, Jim wrote: Gee~ I was on the stage crew for a couple of those, especially Heracles, IIRC (at least for the destruction of the sets). Between the rehearsal pianos tuned flat (some of 'em anyway) and a set of confused singers who were making it up as they went along, and the flat winds...what a circus! The stage crew that eventually destroyed those sets did so with a vengeance I had never seen before and haven't seen since. Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon 25-Feb-08 11:56 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura Well, there were the quarter-tone-flat-to-A-440 woodwinds in John Eaton's operas years ago... ajr On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote: As far as scordatura for winds That phrase makes my head hurt. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
This would play into my earlier points concerning relative power of conductor and players, also value of instruments. RBH Bruce Clausen wrote: The Young Musicians Foundation orchestra in L.A, performed Il distratto with Michael T. Thomas at the helm in the late '60s. I don't recall any particular problems, though I was watching from the horn section. Bruce Clausen - Original Message - From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:04 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura And you've seen it played, by a pro symphony, when? RBH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And don't forget Haydn't Distratto (Symphony #60) in terms of re-tuning written into the music! ajr I think the phrase the exception that proves the rule comes to mind. Thanks for the example. RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Ray, IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE tuning. The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021s=143441 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her good instrument, and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=45Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. RBH shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.0/1296 - Release Date: 2/24/2008 12:19 PM ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura and trombone low B
OK - that's one reported pro Distratto performance! (No report on how many, if any, of the fiddlers brought their alternate instruments.) Trombone low B: I teach my tenor trombone students to fake a low B - lipping down the C, since most of them don't have an E pull anyway. I have a nice, lighter-playing single-valve bass trombone (an old George Roberts model Holton), in addition to my orchestral double-valve Bach (on which the valves are removable). On the Holton I can fake a B very nicely. George told me he would pull to E if a B was sustained, or fake it if it was in passing. Re - Bartok: An E pull alone does not get you the Bartok glissandi, as they are B to F. Most players play them switching from two valves to one, in the middle of the gliss. Doug Yeo in Boston Symphony had an F bass with long slide (7 positions) made (like the instrument in Bartok's head). The best way, short of the latter, is to start with an E pull and have tuba player push the slide in in mid-gliss (two hands - it works!). RBH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, low B isn't exactly a staple for trombones--not quite a pedal tone, and not that versatile as a first harmonic. Esp for tenor 'bone. I've always found it worthwhile to work around the challenges of instrumental limitations to solve my problems--after, look at what Haydn pulled out of the same necessity! (Also, St. Louis Symphony did program the Distratto a buncha years ago--I didn't get to hear it, though.) ajr I had answered this before, as Carl probably assumed a double-valve bass trombone (which is standard now), but I just saw a show today where the tenor trombonist had to play a low B FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER! He is 47 and has held first trombone positions in major orchestras and played every kind of gig under the sun, and he said he didn't even know if his valve slide still moved until he had to pull it. I just thought it was funny that this subject came up, and the same week a guy with so much experience had never seen a written low B before on a gig. Of course, he IS a tenor trombonist, but just the same! C. On Feb 24, 2008, at 8:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra? ajr John Howell wrote: OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura now ergobone (REALLY TAN)
Hi Jim, ErgoBone saved my career on bass trombone. I really need to send the guy in Finland a testimonial. I have a British euph and an American front-action, neither are really comfortable for me. RBH Williams, Jim wrote: Hi, Ray... Nice to see another Ergo user! The ErgoEuph works nicely as well, though I have become convinced that the euphonium is the world's LEAST ergonomic instrument, at least the top-action ones with the british side 4th valve... Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ray Horton Sent: Mon 25-Feb-08 1:36 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura First position - trombone - I get it! I made reference to this in another post. This retuning to which you refer on bass trombone takes a lot longer than five minutes to learn, and remains confusing forever. I know, I went back to a single-valve for a few years, a few years ago, in an effort to save my aching shoulder. When I found out about the Ergo-bone (a very nicely designed stand for the trombone while playing) I put my double valve back on, which makes 99% of retuning the valve unnecessary. RBH John Howell wrote: At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote: I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players weighing in. I work with them and have parented a couple, but never got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself. Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player! OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes. And similarly, any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the same (except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string basses). John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.0/1296 - Release Date: 2/24/2008 12:19 PM ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 25 Feb 2008 at 14:25, Ray Horton wrote: This would play into my earlier points concerning relative power of conductor and players, also value of instruments. I'm certain I heard the Cleveland Orchestra do it back in the 80s when I lived in Cleveland. And just a quick Google picks up a report that they did it in 2002. I don't think your point has any merit whatsoever. It doesn't reflect anything rational about the way stringed instruments actually work. It may be true that lots of string players have voodoo ideas about their instruments, but that doesn't mean there's any basis in fact for those ideas. I talked to a professional violinist about it last night and he said the concern was totally crazy. Yes, retuning changes the balance of the instrument for the time that it's retuned, but if the instrument has nothing wrong with it physically, it will go back to its natural balance after being tuned back to standard tuning (with perhaps some slight adjustment to bridge angle). He said he used to play the Biber scordatura pieces all the time and never used a second instrument, nor encountered any problems with either of the tunings. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 25 Feb 2008, at 2:01 AM, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B without vibrato?) Pizz, very soft, not so much. Strongly disagree. Pizz open strings are every bit as distinctive as arco open strings, and detuned strings are *always* distinctive because we don't hear them that often. (In classical music, anyway -- folk fiddlers employ alternate tunings all the time.) What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their bridges off? It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated any other way. Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer should always get exactly what he/she wants... Clearly, in this case, you'd either do it as written or refuse to play the piece. Or, in the case of a living composer, have some representative of the orchestra call up the composer and express the section's concerns. Either one is acceptable -- unilaterally substituting some other effect is not. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura and trombone low B
On 25 Feb 2008 at 14:47, Ray Horton wrote: OK - that's one reported pro Distratto performance! (No report on how many, if any, of the fiddlers brought their alternate instruments.) Some Googling turned up this: Cleveland Orchestra, 2002 http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=18550 St. Louis Symphony, 2006 http://slso.org/notes/09-29-2006.htm New York Philharmonic, 1991 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE4DF163DF932A1575AC 0A967958260sec=spon=pagewanted=all Philadelphia Orchestra, 2007 http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/op76_philadelphia/op76_rec itals.html Philadelphia Orchestra, April 2008 http://www.philorch.org/styles/poa02e/www/prognotes_20070412.html San Francisco Symphony, 2006 http://www.sfcv.org/arts_revs/sfsym_3_14_06.php I found no evidence that Boston or Chicago had done it, but I just googled the orchestra names and Distratto to find these. It seems to me that the best professional orchestras are programming this piece *all the time*, and not a single one of the reviews mentioned any switch of instruments by the players. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I see no evidence anywhere for the idea that any professional orchestra has switched instruments when programming this popular work. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura and trombone low B
OK, you win! I looked that one up again on Wikipedia: --- In Haydn's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Haydn Symphony No. 60 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._60_%28Haydn%29 in C (/Il Distratto/), the first and second violins start the finale of this unusual six-movement symphony with the lowest string tuned to F, but tune up to G in the course of the music to create a comical effect. The title of the symphony means the absent-minded man – so it is as if the violins have forgotten to tune their strings. The music actually stops for the violins to re-tune before continuing! Haydn also uses a violin with the lowest string tuned to F in the trio of his Symphony No. 67 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._67_%28Haydn%29 in F. --- Sounds cute, and quite doable. I had not heard of it before, and assumed it was obscure, but i was obviously incorrect. My mistake. RBH David W. Fenton wrote: On 25 Feb 2008 at 14:47, Ray Horton wrote: OK - that's one reported pro Distratto performance! (No report on how many, if any, of the fiddlers brought their alternate instruments.) Some Googling turned up this: Cleveland Orchestra, 2002 http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=18550 St. Louis Symphony, 2006 http://slso.org/notes/09-29-2006.htm New York Philharmonic, 1991 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE4DF163DF932A1575AC 0A967958260sec=spon=pagewanted=all Philadelphia Orchestra, 2007 http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/op76_philadelphia/op76_rec itals.html Philadelphia Orchestra, April 2008 http://www.philorch.org/styles/poa02e/www/prognotes_20070412.html San Francisco Symphony, 2006 http://www.sfcv.org/arts_revs/sfsym_3_14_06.php I found no evidence that Boston or Chicago had done it, but I just googled the orchestra names and Distratto to find these. It seems to me that the best professional orchestras are programming this piece *all the time*, and not a single one of the reviews mentioned any switch of instruments by the players. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I see no evidence anywhere for the idea that any professional orchestra has switched instruments when programming this popular work. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
I believe that needing perhaps some slight adjustment to bridge angle in the middle of a piece, for the entire section of violins, is exactly what we are discussing here as often impractical. RBH David W. Fenton wrote: On 25 Feb 2008 at 14:25, Ray Horton wrote: This would play into my earlier points concerning relative power of conductor and players, also value of instruments. I'm certain I heard the Cleveland Orchestra do it back in the 80s when I lived in Cleveland. And just a quick Google picks up a report that they did it in 2002. I don't think your point has any merit whatsoever. It doesn't reflect anything rational about the way stringed instruments actually work. It may be true that lots of string players have voodoo ideas about their instruments, but that doesn't mean there's any basis in fact for those ideas. I talked to a professional violinist about it last night and he said the concern was totally crazy. Yes, retuning changes the balance of the instrument for the time that it's retuned, but if the instrument has nothing wrong with it physically, it will go back to its natural balance after being tuned back to standard tuning (with perhaps some slight adjustment to bridge angle). He said he used to play the Biber scordatura pieces all the time and never used a second instrument, nor encountered any problems with either of the tunings. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 25 Feb 2008 at 17:59, Ray Horton wrote: I believe that needing perhaps some slight adjustment to bridge angle in the middle of a piece, for the entire section of violins, is exactly what we are discussing here as often impractical. Slight adjustments to the bridge are pretty much routine, at least for viols. I check mine weekly, and have to make slight adjustments every couple or three weeks -- nothing big, just making sure it remains in proper vertical and horizontal alignment. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 24 February 2008 02:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura On 23 Feb 2008 at 22:55, Owain Sutton wrote: And unless a bridge or soundpost actually needs replacing, I don't have much respect for somebody who charges money to set things up again. It's NOT that big or skilled a task. I would have to disagree with that. You definitely need someone with a good ear and the skill to translate the sound into adjustments to the position of the sound post. It's always a trade-off -- e.g., by opening up the top of the instrument, you may tighten the bottom, and balancing that out takes sensitivity to the instrument and to the particular player. I suppose what I mean is the actual tasks of setting up and adjusting an instrument are not the difficult part, and that the player should be involved in the process and understand the effects of what is being done rather than expecting a third party to perform some magic. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 24 February 2008 02:32 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura On 23 Feb 2008 at 21:28, Owain Sutton wrote: I've played a piece where all four strings are gradually detuned by two assistants, over the course of several minutes, to the point where the bridge falls down. And when discussing this piece, many other players have said they would never do this, the soundpost would fall, or the shifting pressures on the body would be prone to causing cracking (yeah right, like they keep it at a constant humiditiy, too), or the universe would implode, etc. None of these has happened yet. While I agree that the concerns over tuning one or two strings a half or whole step away from normal are completely overblown, there really *is* a danger when the bridge is down, and that's that the post falls over (which is *good*, since it releases the tension), or that the post could poke through the top of the instrument. William Monical describes a stringed instrument as a lever balanced on a point, the bridge, and that balance can be limited to a fairly tight range. If my instrument were going to have the bridge down for any length of time, I'd definitely want to knock the post out of place. Bear in mind that in this context, I'm not talking about suddenly releasing all the pressure. In any case, even if there is a risk of the soundpost falling, 'poke through the top of the instrument'? That's equating it to instruments dropping from a height bridge-down onto tiles or being stamped on, which are the situations in which I've seen that happen. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 5:49 PM -0500 2/23/08, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Ray, On 23 Feb 2008, at 5:18 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, they see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely unnecessary: In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a bass section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft); Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass string. Exactly! A composer who is a skilled and experienced orchestrator is concerned with more than just having the notes played. The timbre is another variable with which a fine orchestrator is concerned, and with which s/he is entitled to play. I seem to recall that in Rimsky's orchestration books he spent page after page dealing with the wind instruments in different combinations. Would the brass section decide that when a composer asks for straight mutes they'd really rather play with cup mutes? Hey, all the notes are still there!!! And as to double, triple, and quadruple stops, again a knowledgeable composer has the right to specify divisi or non-divisi, while the conductor or concertmaster in an orchestra below the professional level have an equal right to simplify the composer's desires in order to make them playable. A true professional, by definition, is one who is capable of following the composer's imagination and specifications to the letter, as long as it is a capable composer who really knows his or her craft. Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect that Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the scordatura they asked for. (And god forbid we assume that a [gasp] living composer might also have a legitimate musical reason for asking orchestral musicians do something a tiny bit out of the ordinary.) Q.E.D. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 10:58 PM + 2/23/08, Owain Sutton wrote: Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect that Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the scordatura they asked for. Absolutely. Stravinsky in particular makes some very unexpected and awkward demands on string players at times, and one can either say 'ahh, but it's easier to do it another way', or trust him and try what he says, which has a different end result even if only in a change in timbre. Ah heck, just give that high bassoon solo to the oboe player. All the notes'll be covered! Timbre is important, especially to someone like Stravinsky. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra? ajr John Howell wrote: OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? To E?? I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ... what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E? cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
I had answered this before, as Carl probably assumed a double-valve bass trombone (which is standard now), but I just saw a show today where the tenor trombonist had to play a low B FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER! He is 47 and has held first trombone positions in major orchestras and played every kind of gig under the sun, and he said he didn't even know if his valve slide still moved until he had to pull it. I just thought it was funny that this subject came up, and the same week a guy with so much experience had never seen a written low B before on a gig. Of course, he IS a tenor trombonist, but just the same! C. On Feb 24, 2008, at 8:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra? ajr John Howell wrote: OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? To E?? I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ... what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
As far as listing unusual techniques and unusual instruments in the auditions, it depends on how many players you want to eliminate from considering the auditions. Sax is a good example of what I mean. Clarinet players often play sax, orchestras often need sax for pops and the occasional French piece. The next time your orchestra has a second or third clarinet opening, should you list sax as a requirement? Sure, you could, and you will get some applicants, and probably some good ones, but you won't get as many good clarinet applicants, and possibly not the best clarinet applicants. Do you want the best clarinet player you can get playing every day, or do you want to save money on those occasions when you have to hire a sax? Besides, most of times you need a sax, you will need the clarinet part covered, also. We lucked out becaue our 3rd/contrabassoonist happens to be a good sax player, and it does happen that a lot of pops concerts that use sax on the second half (with the star) don't use third/contrabassoon on that half. But would you list sax as a double on your next bassoon audition? I wouldn't advise it. BTW, re tenor tuba euphonium or Wagner tuba (two different instruments, both of which are called tenor tuba) are already standard doubles for trombone and horn players, respectively, in an orchestra. A trombone section will nearly always have one or more euph players in the section, although euph does sometimes get listed on the audition. The only limit on horn players playing Wagner tuba is availability of instruments and an hour or two of practice. But most of the Wagner tuba pieces require another four horns, anyway. I'm sure the Met Opera and other opera orchestras with double sections that play a lot of that rep have Wagner tuba on the auditions for the bottom half. Not uncommon to find a mandolinist in a violin section - but how often do you need one, really? And we hire a banjo about once every ten years, and we're in Kentucky! Start listing banjo, mandolin, and scordatura on your string auditions, and you will cut the string pool WAY down; but I'm sure that they would be of more similar mind-set for whatever you have planned. As far as scordatura for winds - actually, bass trombonists get quite familiar with retuning their valve on the fly, especially if they play without a double valve. Can be mentally quite challenging. Trumpets retune the third valve to play a low F, which affects other notes. [the next examples are tangential] Also, the key of their part and the key of their instrument often do not match. They play A parts on C trumpet, E parts on Bb trumpet, etc. I saw a trumpet player who was playing the high section in the finale of the Bartok _Concerto for Orchestra_ on an E trumpet, but he was reading it off of a part transposed for F trumpet. Tuba players really have some of the biggest mental challenge - the parts are always in concert pitch - they learn first on an instrument in Bb, then later switch to one in C, and somewhere pick up a horn for the high parts in Eb, or F, or maybe one of each, and maybe a euphonium in (high) Bb. Of course, trombone players have the same situation between tenor and alto trombone - the parts are always in concert pitch, but the alto trombone is in a different key and all the positions are shorter. Bassoons sometimes add an extension (a short wooden cylinder, an English Horn bell, or even a toilet paper roll) to get a low A that is occasionally written. And then there is the basset-clarinet! ( Percussionists do have to play pretty much anything that gets written in their part - and cost a lot of weird rentals. And the only double and cartage paid is drum set, as a rule. (Timps are a seperate instrument.) As far as a lack of adventure among orchestral musicians, not really true. I, personally, enjoy doing many different things. In the orchestra I've played bass and tenor trombone, euphonium, bass trumpet, tuba, dijerido, garden hose, sung a couple of solos and with groups, done numerous arrangements and compositions, etc. And there are quite a few others in the orchestra who are like that, and a few who are not. But I still don't blame strings for not doing the scordatura if there is another way that is just as good, or if the composer could find another way. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra John Howell wrote: And you're also right that not everyone WANTS to do it. Fine. The point, then, is that folks should not seek employment in a situation where they will be required to do things they haven't learned to do, not that they couldn't learn to do them if they wanted to. Passive resistance to specific instructions or requests by a composer simply show a too highly developed lack of any sense of adventure. Perhaps orchestral auditions should include a warning that the players will be expected to make any
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
First position - trombone - I get it! I made reference to this in another post. This retuning to which you refer on bass trombone takes a lot longer than five minutes to learn, and remains confusing forever. I know, I went back to a single-valve for a few years, a few years ago, in an effort to save my aching shoulder. When I found out about the Ergo-bone (a very nicely designed stand for the trombone while playing) I put my double valve back on, which makes 99% of retuning the valve unnecessary. RBH John Howell wrote: At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote: I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players weighing in. I work with them and have parented a couple, but never got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself. Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player! OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes. And similarly, any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the same (except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string basses). John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Hi, Ray... Nice to see another Ergo user! The ErgoEuph works nicely as well, though I have become convinced that the euphonium is the world's LEAST ergonomic instrument, at least the top-action ones with the british side 4th valve... Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ray Horton Sent: Mon 25-Feb-08 1:36 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura First position - trombone - I get it! I made reference to this in another post. This retuning to which you refer on bass trombone takes a lot longer than five minutes to learn, and remains confusing forever. I know, I went back to a single-valve for a few years, a few years ago, in an effort to save my aching shoulder. When I found out about the Ergo-bone (a very nicely designed stand for the trombone while playing) I put my double valve back on, which makes 99% of retuning the valve unnecessary. RBH John Howell wrote: At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote: I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players weighing in. I work with them and have parented a couple, but never got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself. Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player! OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes. And similarly, any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the same (except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string basses). John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Ray, On 23 Feb 2008, at 5:18 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, they see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely unnecessary: In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a bass section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft); Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B without vibrato?) Pizz, very soft, not so much. Pizz, the vibrato is minimal anyway. Most orchestras do not have a full section of basses with extensions, so they are playing the upper octave anyway. Respighi's notation is mostly theoretical. I can't imagine an Italian orchestra in the 20's all having extensions, but I don't know. I suppose you get more upset when hardly anyone uses Respighi's especially designed _buccini_ for the extra brass? This would have far more impact on the performance than those silly low Bs . I've read of the instruments, but never seen them. I enjoyed playing the parts (on conventional brass, as they are generally played) when I was younger, but the on-stage parts are more fun. in __heldenleben__ the 2nds play into the viola range, something the violas can do much better; Not if what you want is the sound of a violin playing an open string Gb! What if the composer wants the sound of a violin section taking their bridges off? It _would be_ a striking sound, and can't be imitated any other way. Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps, but if the composer should always get exactly what he/she wants... in the original example that started this thread a novice orchestrator did not know she had exceeded the low range of the violin by several notes, etc. Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect that Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the scordatura they asked for. (And god forbid we assume that a [gasp] living composer might also have a legitimate musical reason for asking orchestral musicians do something a tiny bit out of the ordinary.) It looks to me like the composer of the only one of the three examples that _might_ make a difference, Stravinsky, gave up on it in all subsequent revisions. And maybe it would not really make a difference. It is a marvelous effect as it is played, now. Perhaps someone will witness a trial of it as originally scored and tell us if it makes a significant difference - or perhaps the composer did already, and that is why he did not notate it that way again. His works are full of this sort of correction - the polyrhythms near the beginning of _Petrushka_ are notated differently in the revision, for example, most certainly because the first version was impossible to understand at sight. RBH Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
And you've seen it played, by a pro symphony, when? RBH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And don't forget Haydn't Distratto (Symphony #60) in terms of re-tuning written into the music! ajr I think the phrase the exception that proves the rule comes to mind. Thanks for the example. RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Ray, IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE tuning. The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021s=143441 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her good instrument, and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=45Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. RBH shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
No, not at all, this does not happen. We are simply not talking about taking the easy way out. In fact, players will do quite the opposite. Once, we were playing a piece written by a prominent bluegrass/crossover violin soloist who was obviously a novice orchestrator. He had written an extremely high muted note in one of the trombone parts, just in a simple, quick trumpet and trombone chord. I suggested (within the section) that we double it in a trumpet for safety, but the players involved took it as a point of pride to play it as written, as they always do in a case like that. Now, if they had had to alter their instrument, risking damage (even temporary) to same, it would have been different. Same for the high bassoon solo. RBH John Howell wrote: At 10:58 PM + 2/23/08, Owain Sutton wrote: Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect that Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the scordatura they asked for. Absolutely. Stravinsky in particular makes some very unexpected and awkward demands on string players at times, and one can either say 'ahh, but it's easier to do it another way', or trust him and try what he says, which has a different end result even if only in a change in timbre. Ah heck, just give that high bassoon solo to the oboe player. All the notes'll be covered! Timbre is important, especially to someone like Stravinsky. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her good instrument, and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=45Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. RBH shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. And understandably so -- it's easy to ask for something which gives a unique sound, but it's not always practical. And you can't expect people with extremely expensive instruments to go doing things which will render that instrument all but useless for a week or so as it settles back into standard tuning. And you can't expect those same people to have any other instruments which they can sacrifice in the same way, either. What composers want is one thing -- what all but the most highly paid orchestras can give them may be something else entirely. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... Ah, just put some Scruggs pegs on the thing and have done with scordatura problems! ;-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her good instrument, and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=45Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. RBH shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 3:53 AM -0500 2/23/08, dhbailey wrote: Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. And understandably so -- it's easy to ask for something which gives a unique sound, but it's not always practical. And you can't expect people with extremely expensive instruments to go doing things which will render that instrument all but useless for a week or so as it settles back into standard tuning. But the point is that it won't!!! What we've been discussing is very minor tuning variations that will have NO permanent and virtually NO temporary effect on the instruments at all. And what's been lurking in back of this discussion--with all due respect to your daughter, Ray--is players who have been carefully taught that there is one and only one Right and Proper way to deal with the tool of their trade, which happens also to be a musical instrument, and it simply 'taint so!! We've just been going through some wild weather swings that have affected all the stringed instruments, and I can guarantee that the tuning variations people are finding when they open their cases are LESS than most of the scordature we've been discussing! Most singers are trained the same way, of course, and you've got to have a baritone with no inhibitions and no fear if he's going to sing Orff's Carmina Burana! What composers want is one thing -- what all but the most highly paid orchestras can give them may be something else entirely. :-) I think Beethoven had the answer to that: I write the music; you figure out how to play it! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Hi Ray, IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE tuning. The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021s=143441 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her good instrument, and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=45Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. RBH shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Also: If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more concern for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior instrument and must detune their main instrument. Any lasting tuning problems this might cause would be even more exposed and serious for a soloist, so if they were a legitimate concern, you would expect soloists to be more reluctant than section players to play a piece that called for alternate tuning. I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of orchestral string players to use alternate tunings (even for an orchestral warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from the same place as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to do ANYTHING that falls outside of their usual comfort zone. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
HI Darcy, I haven't been following all of this discussion (sorry), but there is a not so superficial issue with scordatura for anything but short passages. Players depend on deeply ingrained kinesthetic patterns for controlling their instruments (obviously), and some are more adept at the cerebral re-patterning that goes with different tunings than others. I can play the cello a little, and the bass tuned in 5ths (too much real estate to cover for my taste, but some people find it advantageous), but comfortable access to the hand movements and fingerings I need in the heat of jazz improvisation I can only get in my home tuning of 4ths. I know this is a limitation of my brain function, but I don't believe I am alone in being disturbed and a little distanced from my musical responses when I have to cope with unfamiliar tunings. I'm sure this can be overcome with practice, (people double on clarinet and saxophone, and some know the old system of clarinet fingering and can switch back and forth from it with relative ease) but not everyone wants to do it. Just my 2 cents. Chuck On Feb 23, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Also: If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more concern for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior instrument and must detune their main instrument. Any lasting tuning problems this might cause would be even more exposed and serious for a soloist, so if they were a legitimate concern, you would expect soloists to be more reluctant than section players to play a piece that called for alternate tuning. I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of orchestral string players to use alternate tunings (even for an orchestral warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from the same place as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to do ANYTHING that falls outside of their usual comfort zone. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Hi Chuck, The discussion has not been about the difficulty of learning to play in an unfamiliar tuning, but rather the allegation that detuning a string instrument can cause serious, lasting problems to the instrument itself. (I should add that the harmonic gliss passage from The Firebird under discussion is not at all difficult to play!) Clearly, the issues are much different for jazz improvisers vs. learning to play a written passage that calls for an alternate tuning. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 3:44 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: HI Darcy, I haven't been following all of this discussion (sorry), but there is a not so superficial issue with scordatura for anything but short passages. Players depend on deeply ingrained kinesthetic patterns for controlling their instruments (obviously), and some are more adept at the cerebral re-patterning that goes with different tunings than others. I can play the cello a little, and the bass tuned in 5ths (too much real estate to cover for my taste, but some people find it advantageous), but comfortable access to the hand movements and fingerings I need in the heat of jazz improvisation I can only get in my home tuning of 4ths. I know this is a limitation of my brain function, but I don't believe I am alone in being disturbed and a little distanced from my musical responses when I have to cope with unfamiliar tunings. I'm sure this can be overcome with practice, (people double on clarinet and saxophone, and some know the old system of clarinet fingering and can switch back and forth from it with relative ease) but not everyone wants to do it. Just my 2 cents. Chuck On Feb 23, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Also: If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more concern for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior instrument and must detune their main instrument. Any lasting tuning problems this might cause would be even more exposed and serious for a soloist, so if they were a legitimate concern, you would expect soloists to be more reluctant than section players to play a piece that called for alternate tuning. I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of orchestral string players to use alternate tunings (even for an orchestral warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from the same place as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to do ANYTHING that falls outside of their usual comfort zone. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darcy James Argue Sent: 23 February 2008 18:54 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura Hi Ray, IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE tuning. That's nothing ;) I've played a piece where all four strings are gradually detuned by two assistants, over the course of several minutes, to the point where the bridge falls down. And when discussing this piece, many other players have said they would never do this, the soundpost would fall, or the shifting pressures on the body would be prone to causing cracking (yeah right, like they keep it at a constant humiditiy, too), or the universe would implode, etc. None of these has happened yet. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
I think the phrase the exception that proves the rule comes to mind. Thanks for the example. RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Ray, IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE tuning. The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021s=143441 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her good instrument, and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=45Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. RBH shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 12:44 PM -0800 2/23/08, Chuck Israels wrote: HI Darcy, I haven't been following all of this discussion (sorry), but there is a not so superficial issue with scordatura for anything but short passages. Players depend on deeply ingrained kinesthetic patterns for controlling their instruments (obviously), and some are more adept at the cerebral re-patterning that goes with different tunings than others. I can play the cello a little, and the bass tuned in 5ths (too much real estate to cover for my taste, but some people find it advantageous), but comfortable access to the hand movements and fingerings I need in the heat of jazz improvisation I can only get in my home tuning of 4ths. I know this is a limitation of my brain function, but I don't believe I am alone in being disturbed and a little distanced from my musical responses when I have to cope with unfamiliar tunings. I'm sure this can be overcome with practice, (people double on clarinet and saxophone, and some know the old system of clarinet fingering and can switch back and forth from it with relative ease) but not everyone wants to do it. Hi, Chuck, and you're absolutely right, and it's no limitation of your brain function. You can't do something you've never done before unless you learn to do it and practice doing it. The most obvious example is that most classically-trained players and singers can't perform jazz and do it not only with proper styles but with intuitive instincts for what is right, let alone improv. (The opposite, of course, is also true.) And you're also right that not everyone WANTS to do it. Fine. The point, then, is that folks should not seek employment in a situation where they will be required to do things they haven't learned to do, not that they couldn't learn to do them if they wanted to. Passive resistance to specific instructions or requests by a composer simply show a too highly developed lack of any sense of adventure. Perhaps orchestral auditions should include a warning that the players will be expected to make any adjustments to conventional techniques required by the composers whose music is played. How about it, Ray; would professional orchestra players agree to that, or are they too hidebound conservative? There must be provisions for conventional unconventional doubles, like banjo, mandolin, and of course the saxes and occasional tenor tuba. And is there an equivalent to scordatura tunings for strings in the brass and woodwind sections? (Percussionists may be more open to challenges than any other players in the orchestra!!) Just my 2 cents. Chuck I'll see your 2 cents and raise you a nickel! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, they see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely unnecessary: In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a bass section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft); in __heldenleben__ the 2nds play into the viola range, something the violas can do much better; in the original example that started this thread a novice orchestrator did not know she had exceeded the low range of the violin by several notes, etc. These players do not want to risk a problem, even a temporary one, to their instrument for what they see as a musical situation that can be solved in an easier and better fashion than by one that causes its own problems.. A soloist, who gets the gig based on a unique work and gets paid much more dough, is in quite a different situation. Even the concertmaster playing Dance Macabre is, similarly. (And, yes, the former soloist MAY be playing her less than best fiddle! But she might not - she definitely has time to set it up for the next performance.) I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players weighing in. I work with them and have parented a couple, but never got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself. RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: Also: If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more concern for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior instrument and must detune their main instrument. Any lasting tuning problems this might cause would be even more exposed and serious for a soloist, so if they were a legitimate concern, you would expect soloists to be more reluctant than section players to play a piece that called for alternate tuning. I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of orchestral string players to use alternate tunings (even for an orchestral warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from the same place as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to do ANYTHING that falls outside of their usual comfort zone. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 9:28 PM + 2/23/08, Owain Sutton wrote: That's nothing ;) I've played a piece where all four strings are gradually detuned by two assistants, over the course of several minutes, to the point where the bridge falls down. And when discussing this piece, many other players have said they would never do this, the soundpost would fall, or the shifting pressures on the body would be prone to causing cracking (yeah right, like they keep it at a constant humiditiy, too), or the universe would implode, etc. None of these has happened yet. You mean the sky really isn't falling? Whew! I was afraid I missed it!! (Actually they do their darndest to maintain constant humidity, both with those wormy things stuck in the F-holes and with very scientific-looking gizmos in their cases. Instruments built in and for European climates react quite badly to the wild extremes found in various parts of North America.) But I would definitely draw the line (despite my advocacy of following the composer's wishes) at anything that would cause the bridge or soundpost to either fall or get misplaced. It costs MONEY to get a good luthier to restore the proper setup, and it has to be done in the dark of the moon with newt's eye and some other weird stuff. I'd expect the composer to rent me a fiddle and take full responsibility for it if s/he wanted something that close to being destructive. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On Feb 23, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Chuck, The discussion has not been about the difficulty of learning to play in an unfamiliar tuning, but rather the allegation that detuning a string instrument can cause serious, lasting problems to the instrument itself. Sorry, my bad. Probably shouldn't jump in after having deleted all the preceding posts. Chuck (I should add that the harmonic gliss passage from The Firebird under discussion is not at all difficult to play!) Clearly, the issues are much different for jazz improvisers vs. learning to play a written passage that calls for an alternate tuning. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 3:44 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: HI Darcy, I haven't been following all of this discussion (sorry), but there is a not so superficial issue with scordatura for anything but short passages. Players depend on deeply ingrained kinesthetic patterns for controlling their instruments (obviously), and some are more adept at the cerebral re-patterning that goes with different tunings than others. I can play the cello a little, and the bass tuned in 5ths (too much real estate to cover for my taste, but some people find it advantageous), but comfortable access to the hand movements and fingerings I need in the heat of jazz improvisation I can only get in my home tuning of 4ths. I know this is a limitation of my brain function, but I don't believe I am alone in being disturbed and a little distanced from my musical responses when I have to cope with unfamiliar tunings. I'm sure this can be overcome with practice, (people double on clarinet and saxophone, and some know the old system of clarinet fingering and can switch back and forth from it with relative ease) but not everyone wants to do it. Just my 2 cents. Chuck On Feb 23, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Also: If anything, the issues you bring up ought to be of even more concern for a soloist, since they can't substitute an inferior instrument and must detune their main instrument. Any lasting tuning problems this might cause would be even more exposed and serious for a soloist, so if they were a legitimate concern, you would expect soloists to be more reluctant than section players to play a piece that called for alternate tuning. I am inclined to believe that there is an awful lot of hoo-hah and superstition around this issue, and that the resistance of orchestral string players to use alternate tunings (even for an orchestral warhorse like _The Firebird_, fercrissakes) comes from the same place as the general resistance of orchestral musicians to do ANYTHING that falls outside of their usual comfort zone. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote: I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players weighing in. I work with them and have parented a couple, but never got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself. Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player! OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes. And similarly, any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the same (except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string basses). John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Hi Ray, On 23 Feb 2008, at 5:18 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, they see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely unnecessary: In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a bass section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft); Because the sound of an open string on cello -- especially that scordatura B! -- is very different from the sound of a stopped bass string. (When the basses divide, do the top ones at least play the B without vibrato?) in __heldenleben__ the 2nds play into the viola range, something the violas can do much better; Not if what you want is the sound of a violin playing an open string Gb! in the original example that started this thread a novice orchestrator did not know she had exceeded the low range of the violin by several notes, etc. Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect that Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the scordatura they asked for. (And god forbid we assume that a [gasp] living composer might also have a legitimate musical reason for asking orchestral musicians do something a tiny bit out of the ordinary.) Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players weighing in. I work with them and have parented a couple, but never got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself. On the trombone! ;-) Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Perhaps orchestral auditions should include a warning that the players will be expected to make any adjustments to conventional techniques required by the composers whose music is played. How about it, Ray; would professional orchestra players agree to that, or are they too hidebound conservative? There must be provisions for conventional unconventional doubles, like banjo, mandolin, and of course the saxes and occasional tenor tuba. And is there an equivalent to scordatura tunings for strings in the brass and woodwind sections? (Percussionists may be more open to challenges than any other players in the orchestra!!) Well, one of the difficulties that we're clearly encountering is that it's hard to find any common agreement of how far one can adjust instruments, violins specifically, without risking permanent damage. Which surely would have to be the limit of any such requirement?! (Actually they do their darndest to maintain constant humidity, both with those wormy things stuck in the F-holes and with very scientific-looking gizmos in their cases. Instruments built in and for European climates react quite badly to the wild extremes found in various parts of North America.) As I have demonstrated to my and my violin's cost when camping in the Rockies. However, none of it as as scientific as it might look. The hygrometers in cases are just there to look flash, and I wouldn't trust them to give an accurate reading. As for humidifiers in f-holes, while they have a very useful function in preventing things drying out too far (especially in an instrument more familiar with maritime climates), they fall a long way short of maintaining constant humidity. But I would definitely draw the line (despite my advocacy of following the composer's wishes) at anything that would cause the bridge or soundpost to either fall or get misplaced. It costs MONEY to get a good luthier to restore the proper setup, and it has to be done in the dark of the moon with newt's eye and some other weird stuff. I'd expect the composer to rent me a fiddle and take full responsibility for it if s/he wanted something that close to being destructive. John I suppose I am a bit spoilt, with a fallen soundpost only requiring a ten minute walk down the road to get sorted :) And unless a bridge or soundpost actually needs replacing, I don't have much respect for somebody who charges money to set things up again. It's NOT that big or skilled a task. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Howell Sent: 23 February 2008 22:39 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura At 5:18 PM -0500 2/23/08, Ray Horton wrote: I'm done talking out of my area, since we now have string players weighing in. I work with them and have parented a couple, but never got _really_ comfortable out of first position, myself. Gee, that's a real limitation for a 'bone player! OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? I'd be astonished if you did for more than 5 minutes. And similarly, any string player can learn to deal with finding the notes in scordatura, especially since the string length remains the same and therefore the distance between notes in each position remains the same (except, of course, for the 4th string extension on string basses). John Absolutely. It's more a 'state of mind' than anything else, treating the notation as one step closer to a tablature than normal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Well, no one is defending ignorance. But I am inclined to suspect that Respighi, Strauss, and Stravinsky had good reasons for wanting the scordatura they asked for. Absolutely. Stravinsky in particular makes some very unexpected and awkward demands on string players at times, and one can either say 'ahh, but it's easier to do it another way', or trust him and try what he says, which has a different end result even if only in a change in timbre. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
I remember that the debut concert of the IU New Music Ensemble featured a cellist playing Pendercki's Capriccio per Siegfried Palm. The cellist sitting next to me in piano class said that you couldn't give here $3000 to do that to her cello, and I found out later that the guy who played it borrowed a school instrument to do so. Also, the ensemble's director was very fond of saying that a bunch of string players bitched at Monteverdi for asking them to play pizzicato, and that we all know Monteverdi's name but not the names of any of those whiny string players. ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
John Howell wrote: OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? To E?? I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ... what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E? cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
And don't forget Haydn't Distratto (Symphony #60) in terms of re-tuning written into the music! ajr I think the phrase the exception that proves the rule comes to mind. Thanks for the example. RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Ray, IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE tuning. The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021s=143441 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Solos are different. Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. Thanks, RBH Darcy James Argue wrote: There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her good instrument, and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=45Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I said that in case you were going anywhere with G-string. But if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. RBH shirling neueweise wrote: Tread carefully. For starters, the violinist is my daughter. in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) mouthclosedmodeON When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 23-Feb-08, at 6:08 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: John Howell wrote: OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? To E?? I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ... what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E? On single-valve bass trombones (that used to be the only kind) you had to add about 4-1/2 inches of tubing to get a low B without faking it. Usually they pulled the valve slide when they saw a B coming up. Tenor trombones with F valves still have the capability to pull to an E tuning for the most part, so it isn't gone into the depths of history yet. Some serious orchestra players prefer to play bass trombone on a single-valve instrument. They claim it is much freer-blowing. I have to agree with them, but in my free-lance work I need the second valve too often to be able to pass it up. If I were only an orchestral bass trombonist, I might be able to get away with it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
At 3:08 PM -0800 2/23/08, Carl Dershem wrote: John Howell wrote: OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? To E?? I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ... what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E? Getting the low B Bartok required. Or anyone else. Of course I'm thinking back in the good ol' days when bass trombones only had one valve. (If it's good enough for George Roberts ...) John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 23 Feb 2008 at 21:28, Owain Sutton wrote: I've played a piece where all four strings are gradually detuned by two assistants, over the course of several minutes, to the point where the bridge falls down. And when discussing this piece, many other players have said they would never do this, the soundpost would fall, or the shifting pressures on the body would be prone to causing cracking (yeah right, like they keep it at a constant humiditiy, too), or the universe would implode, etc. None of these has happened yet. While I agree that the concerns over tuning one or two strings a half or whole step away from normal are completely overblown, there really *is* a danger when the bridge is down, and that's that the post falls over (which is *good*, since it releases the tension), or that the post could poke through the top of the instrument. William Monical describes a stringed instrument as a lever balanced on a point, the bridge, and that balance can be limited to a fairly tight range. If my instrument were going to have the bridge down for any length of time, I'd definitely want to knock the post out of place. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 23 Feb 2008 at 17:18, Ray Horton wrote: Darcy, you have a point, but from an orchestral players standpoint, they see much of what is written in the name of scordatura as merely unnecessary: In _Pines_ why should cellists detune when there is a bass section that can divide (the passage in question is very soft); in __heldenleben__ the 2nds play into the viola range, something the violas can do much better; Well, there's quite an obvious answer: IT SOUNDS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE ALTERNATIVE SCORING. It's not even a subtle difference in the case of a violin playing below its normal range as compared to a viola played on the bottom string. in the original example that started this thread a novice orchestrator did not know she had exceeded the low range of the violin by several notes, etc. I introduced the topic of scordatura in response to that *as a joke*. These players do not want to risk a problem, even a temporary one, to their instrument for what they see as a musical situation that can be solved in an easier and better fashion than by one that causes its own problems.. I think it's ridiculous to worry about such a thing, even with a very fine instrument. If it's really that unstable that you can't retune it and have it hold its tune, then the instrument needs work! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
On 23 Feb 2008 at 22:55, Owain Sutton wrote: And unless a bridge or soundpost actually needs replacing, I don't have much respect for somebody who charges money to set things up again. It's NOT that big or skilled a task. I would have to disagree with that. You definitely need someone with a good ear and the skill to translate the sound into adjustments to the position of the sound post. It's always a trade-off -- e.g., by opening up the top of the instrument, you may tighten the bottom, and balancing that out takes sensitivity to the instrument and to the particular player. On the other hand, it is a bit of voodoo, but that's mostly because the instruments themselves vary so wildly with humidity and temperature. William Monical once came to an NYU Collegium concert and adjust the posts on all our viols just before we played. I'd love to say that it made a huge difference in our playing, but it didn't! It is always frustrating to make the trek out to Staten Island, and have your instrument sound simply fabulous after his adjustments, and then get home and find that it no longer sounds like it did in Monical's shop. But post adjustments *do* make a huge difference. And perhaps it's more of a different in instruments like viols, which are at much lower tensions so that things can shift more easily. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] what does a copyist do?
From a copyist, composers generally [expect] their score to be copied exactly as they gave it, no more and no less. i won't say where this came from other than to mention it is from a composer and was sent to an experienced and diligent copyist i know. i know there are copyists that also feel this way, but i've always felt that the copyist's most important role is to improve the performers' relation with the music, which means in some cases slight editing and corrections (notational standards, obvious typos/errors etc.) and in others actually arguing points with the composer that you know to be true, because you have spoken to dozens upon dozens of composers, performers, copyists and musicologists and have gleaned and considered various perspectives on notation standards, tendencies, alterations etc. and have a braod understanding of what the norms are and when it is pertinent to break them and when it is not. further, in my view -- as a composer and as a copyist -- the composer is not always the person who knows best about their scores exactly because of the fact that they have spent so many months on the composition that they cannot distance themselves from things that actually hinder a proper rendition of the score by a performer who has not spent the same kind of obsessive focus (tunnel vision?) on the score. (this is not a comment on performer disengagement, that is another discussion altogether). but i'm just one measly copyist, what do the collective you think about all this? i'll start the list: 1. poor composer. 2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
shirling neueweise wrote, on 2/22/2008 7:14 AM: i've always felt that the copyist's most important role is to improve the performers' relation with the music Though I'm swamped with stuff to finish, I had to jump in here and agree. I've worked with composers who at fist insist that the music be done exactly as presented, right down to outside-the-notehead slurs, awkward page-layout matching and quirky notational devices, coupled with composer certainty that there were no errors (until they saw them). After working with one composer on a few dozen compositions over the past decade, we finally ended our relationship. The do-it-my-way-first, change-it-later approach was taking time from other work, and he felt I was (and paid for being) only a copyist when I had to be his editor and designer too. On the other hand, one composer with very difficult music is also very particular about setting the score as written, but is happy (and even self-deprecating and relieved) when his errors come up for correction. Of course I ask about each one, but I'm always right. :) An immensely difficult score (the one I was asking for help here about some issues last month) came to premiere with just one tiny rehearsal hitch a few weeks ago -- an accidental he'd missed writing and I didn't see. Hitch-free-ness, clarity and sense are important to me (what jef calls improving the performers' relation with the music). No matter how complex or individual the notation, it has to be read and performed accurately and idiomatically, and my role is to help make that happen -- which is why I never call myself a copyist. Though I only have a few clients, none has given me error-free and well-presented drafts (that includes my own music). They are sometimes gorgeous manuscripts, but are layouts of pen and pencil that have to be massaged to render into clean form using consistent font sizes, balanced white space, courtesy to performers, etc. A legible manuscript doesn't necessarily stamp into place as a legible printed score. So I convert, edit and design ... but never merely copy. There are also questions about instrumentation and even composition, but I reserve those discussions for just a few of my clients. :) (And then there's jef's #1: the poor composer. I wonder if he meant money or quality?) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
I've worked with composers who at fist insist that the music be done exactly as presented... A combative business! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
This thread reminds me of that movie (wasn't it about Beethoven?) in which the female copyist rewrites something and the composer rants about it. --- If copying is all that's really wanted then that's all I do (but it's really boring for me even if I am getting paid). In my experience it's really easy to lose future work from a client if I offer unsolicited criticism the first time I work for them. Some people get highly offended at the slightest intimation that something might be done differently, no matter how good the reason for making the suggestion. For example, I copied a piece for a composition student last year that had violin playing several notes below its range. I knew this was going to draw criticism from the comp professor and so brought it to the young lady's attention. She promptly fired me and accused me of trying to derail her career. But when there's an opportunity I do enjoy helping a composer find the best way to communicate their ideas to musicians. I'm currently working on a symphony that's full of wrong or missing accidentals (especially in transposing instrument parts), and the composer said he expects me to find and correct such errors. That's in the job description as copyist for me. But the score also has a couple of passages that are just clumsy, strained, and a real obstacle to the musical ideas in general. Have I commented on those things? Yep- but only because we've developed a very good relationship over time. In this case I was asked to cross the line into editing responsibilities, but the composer will always have the last say, whether the result is good or not. Another piece I worked on last year contained an organ part that could only be played on a four-manual instrument because of registration needs. While it was playable and would sound great just the way it was written, I pointed out that few (U.S.) non-church venues have a four-manual organ. The result was that the composer redistributed some notes to other instruments. Nothing musical was lost and the piece now has a chance of being played anywhere there's a two-manual instrument. The composer was grateful for the insight. Was that generally within my interests as a copyist? I don't think so. Others might. I just felt free to offer a practical suggestion based on the kind of relationship we developed as we worked together. Of the composers I know personally those are best that can admit they don't know everything (neither do I, of course!). Humility, though, seems a foreign commodity among some, and unfortunately I find myself disliking some otherwise really good music simply because of the composer's overblown ego. In those cases I still do my best copying work, but keep my editing mouth shut. Then I get pompous and tell myself that could earn a Pulitzer if they'd only listen to me. :)heehee- talk about ego! MINIMALLY RELATED RANT What really irks me are conductors who presume to rewrite music after it's been thoroughly edited, copied, re-edited and published. RANT OFF 1. poor composer. 2. overblown egos. -Cecil Rigby rigrax at earthlink.net - Original Message - Part of the message from: shirling neueweise From a copyist, composers generally [expect] their score to be copied exactly as they gave it, no more and no less. [snip] i know there are copyists that also feel this way, but i've always felt that the copyist's most important role is to improve the performers' relation with the music.. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
At 1:14 PM +0100 2/22/08, shirling neueweise wrote: From a copyist, composers generally [expect] their score to be copied exactly as they gave it, no more and no less. i won't say where this came from other than to mention it is from a composer and was sent to an experienced and diligent copyist i know. I think that in order to answer your implied question we really have to go back to the days of hand copying, from Bach (and before) through the 1960s and 1970s when copy services in many musical centers were doing constant good business because of the high demand for their services. Since I was working from the West Coast in the '60s, my choice was Cameo Music, 1527 1/2 Vine Street, Hollywood. (Lord; why do I even remember the address?!!!) i know there are copyists that also feel this way, but i've always felt that the copyist's most important role is to improve the performers' relation with the music, which means in some cases slight editing and corrections (notational standards, obvious typos/errors etc.) I don't think it is possible to lay down any hard and fast rule. It depends entirely on the relationship between the composer (or arranger, of course) and the copyist (still thinking mainly about the pre-computer days). It depends on whether the composer produces a complete, readable, full score with every detail in place or a sketch which invites the copyist to function also as orchestrator or perhaps co-orchestrator. But it is up to the composer/arranger to make the decision whether to hire you as an editor or just as a copyist, and the fee you ask should reflect the difference. If you're told as is, you produce as is. And obvious typos/errors go way back to monks using feathers!!! No copyist is free from errors. and in others actually arguing points with the composer that you know to be true, because you have spoken to dozens upon dozens of composers, performers, copyists and musicologists and have gleaned and considered various perspectives on notation standards, tendencies, alterations etc. and have a braod understanding of what the norms are and when it is pertinent to break them and when it is not. This is not nearly as clear cut. If the agreement between composer and copyist permits this kind of relationship, terrific. Then you're being hired because of your expertise as well as your hand. And of course the norms are quite different in different parts of the music business, especially between jazz vs. classical, concert music vs. Broadway or film scores, show music that will never have a complete rehearsal, or avant guard and therefore notationally challenging music. In that case, yes, I think you owe the composer your feedback on the way it's being done and the way it's expected to be. But we all know where the buck stops! further, in my view -- as a composer and as a copyist -- the composer is not always the person who knows best about their scores exactly because of the fact that they have spent so many months on the composition that they cannot distance themselves from things that actually hinder a proper rendition of the score by a performer who has not spent the same kind of obsessive focus (tunnel vision?) on the score. (this is not a comment on performer disengagement, that is another discussion altogether). This strikes me as being a weak justification for taking over as co-composer. You imply that you, who get the score cold and have spent NO time studying or analyzing it, have a clearer idea of the composer's intentions than the composer him- or herself, and I simply don't buy into that. But never forget that you're talking about a free, unregulated marketplace. If you have your standards and make them clear to potential clients, and if you get hired BECAUSE those standards are accepted and respected, you'll get work. If you put down your client and try to browbeat him or her into changing their habits you'll probably never hear from that particular client again. And yes, I'm perfectly aware that computer engraving is a whole new ballgame from hand copying. Back in the day, every copyist had his own hand, and composer/arrangers would choose a copyist because they liked his product and got the results they wanted. (Or, in the case of Broadway books from the Golden Age, apparently because he was somebody's brother-in-law!) Today every copyist tries to look like publisher engravings, and there's much less room for individualism. And that's just the way it is. (But PLEASE don't put bar numbers every 5 bars!) John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
At 9:54 AM -0500 2/22/08, Cecil Rigby wrote: For example, I copied a piece for a composition student last year that had violin playing several notes below its range. I knew this was going to draw criticism from the comp professor and so brought it to the young lady's attention. She promptly fired me and accused me of trying to derail her career. He he he!!! My mom was in an orchestrations class with someone like this. When the prof pointed out that the person had written a low Bb for the viola her reply was, But I only did it once! But of course that's what orchestration classes are for! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
shirling neueweise wrote: From a copyist, composers generally [expect] their score to be copied exactly as they gave it, no more and no less. i won't say where this came from other than to mention it is from a composer and was sent to an experienced and diligent copyist i know. i know there are copyists that also feel this way, but i've always felt that the copyist's most important role is to improve the performers' relation with the music, which means in some cases slight editing and corrections (notational standards, obvious typos/errors etc.) and in others actually arguing points with the composer that you know to be true, because you have spoken to dozens upon dozens of composers, performers, copyists and musicologists and have gleaned and considered various perspectives on notation standards, tendencies, alterations etc. and have a braod understanding of what the norms are and when it is pertinent to break them and when it is not. further, in my view -- as a composer and as a copyist -- the composer is not always the person who knows best about their scores exactly because of the fact that they have spent so many months on the composition that they cannot distance themselves from things that actually hinder a proper rendition of the score by a performer who has not spent the same kind of obsessive focus (tunnel vision?) on the score. (this is not a comment on performer disengagement, that is another discussion altogether). but i'm just one measly copyist, what do the collective you think about all this? i'll start the list: 1. poor composer. 2. I think that generally whenever anybody says generally that whatever they say is only true in a general sense and when examined more closely it often falls apart. For *some* composers that original quote is true, but for many others, they welcome the corrections that copyists can provide. And arguing points from the perspective of a performer to help a composer clarify what is being communicated on the printed page should, in my opinion, be welcome by any and all composers. As long as the copyist realizes which sort of composer he/she is dealing with and ultimately adheres to the client is always right (until the check clears) mentality. Composers need to be allowed their idiosyncracies -- otherwise what will the musicologists of the 2200s have to argue about and write dissertations about? ;-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
On 22 Feb 2008 at 8:28, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: So I convert, edit and design ... but never merely copy. The myth of the non-intervening copyist is a myth. I don't understand where composers got this idea, except insofar as the role of the score has changed throughout history (what was once a utilitarian tool for producing parts to be performed from is now The Work In Its Perfect Representation). Going as far back as the 13th century, copyists always intervened to clarify and edit, in the process sometimes actually changing the meaning of the music (as was the case with the Magnus Liber sources, the surviving copies of which date from the period after which the original modal notation had already been superseded by Garlandian and Franconian rhythmic notation systems; Garlandian could represent modal notation without tending to modify it, but the Franconian system was a huge change (from context determining meaning to the shape of the individual neume being the determinant) that couldn't really be used without collapsing the waveform, as it were). And I've seen the same things in all of my work with 16th-, 17th-, 18th- and early 19th-century printed and MS sources -- copyists/engravers *always* introduce changes. And it's a GOOD THING, too! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
At 9:54 AM -0500 2/22/08, Cecil Rigby wrote: For example, I copied a piece for a composition student last year that had violin playing several notes below its range. I knew this was going to draw criticism from the comp professor and so brought it to the young lady's attention. She promptly fired me and accused me of trying to derail her career. He he he!!! My mom was in an orchestrations class with someone like this. When the prof pointed out that the person had written a low Bb for the viola her reply was, But I only did it once! aah, the violas, why do these things always happen to/with THEM? 8-) -- while in university another student -- who often bragged about his broad knowledge and experience in various styles -- was told in a rehearsal that the violas don't have a low Bb... so he said, oh then just play B-natural. -- i did the orchestral parts for a not unknown orchestra in germany, there was a repeated pattern played 10+ times (can't remember exactly), the whole orchestra played almost the same rhythm, and all voices had quite similar but not exact contours on different notes. low note on the violas was C#, the whole pattern played in first position. then, suddenly, the whole orchestra shifts down a semitone for the final repetition. in this final repetition, the composer had written B#, which i felt made sense in this context, and we talked about it. you know, new music + orchestral score = sight reading in performance etc etc. we discussed both sides and eventually agreed we would leave it written as B# -- despite fingering considerations and other things -- because it was so absolutely clear on paper and to the ear. so after the performance, some keener from the viola section sez to the composer: yeh you know you wrote a low B# in the viola part. yeh, sez composer with eyebrow raised in curiosity, and? to which the violist replies that it was obviously an error so they played C# instead. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
hi john, thanks. further, in my view -- as a composer and as a copyist -- the composer is not always the person who knows best about their scores... This strikes me as being a weak justification for taking over as co-composer. You imply that you, who get the score cold and have spent NO time studying or analyzing it, have a clearer idea of the composer's intentions than the composer him- or herself, and I simply don't buy into that. not quite, but close. i am not at all claiming the copyist is a co-composer (or arranger), but rather a kind of editor. i would agree that yes going in cold you won't have better knowledge of the composer than the composer, but that you are much hotter in regards to notational and typographic standards and modes of presentation than they are, because that, for me, is part of the job of a copyist. if the composer doesn't want to take advantage of the copyist's experience and capacity to have a larger perspective, fine; i've done as is in the past as well, and think this kind of work should be paid at a higher rate for having raped my soul. But never forget that you're talking about a free, unregulated marketplace. If you have your standards and make them clear to potential clients, and if you get hired BECAUSE those standards are accepted and respected, you'll get work. If you put down your client and try to browbeat him or her into changing their habits you'll probably never hear from that particular client again. i'm specificly talking about composers who refuse to be flexible and understanding about some notational issues that the copyist might be just as or more knowledgable about than the composer... in particular when other things in the score reflect the composer's fundamental lack of knowledge about other fairly basic notational standards that apply equally to hand-copying and computer notation, whether classical or new music. i won't get into the details about this, though. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
At 6:46 PM +0100 2/22/08, shirling neueweise wrote: At 9:54 AM -0500 2/22/08, Cecil Rigby wrote: For example, I copied a piece for a composition student last year that had violin playing several notes below its range. I knew this was going to draw criticism from the comp professor and so brought it to the young lady's attention. She promptly fired me and accused me of trying to derail her career. He he he!!! My mom was in an orchestration class with someone like this. When the prof pointed out that the person had written a low Bb for the viola her reply was, But I only did it once! aah, the violas, why do these things always happen to/with THEM? 8-) Because hardly anyone else can read the clef? (Yeah, trombonists, I know all about you, and it's just fine for viola da gamba, too.) in this final repetition, the composer had written B#, which i felt made sense in this context, and we talked about it. you know, new music + orchestral score = sight reading in performance etc etc. we discussed both sides and eventually agreed we would leave it written as B# -- despite fingering considerations and other things -- because it was so absolutely clear on paper and to the ear. My mom was always on me to spell notes correctly for the chords, etc., while I always had a tendency to try to make the parts look the way they should sound for the player or singer. In this case, though (and assuming a priori equal temperament), I would have chosen a C natural rather than a B# simply because it isn't a note we violists are used to seeing, and it will automatically be questioned. so after the performance, some keener from the viola section sez to the composer: yeh you know you wrote a low B# in the viola part. yeh, sez composer with eyebrow raised in curiosity, and? to which the violist replies that it was obviously an error so they played C# instead. Q.E.D.! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
On 22 Feb 2008 at 9:54, Cecil Rigby wrote: For example, I copied a piece for a composition student last year that had violin playing several notes below its range. I knew this was going to draw criticism from the comp professor and so brought it to the young lady's attention. She promptly fired me and accused me of trying to derail her career. The way I'd handle this is two-fold: 1. my notation program won't let me enter those notes (or won't create a proper playback) because it says they are outside the instrument's range (and, of course, with Finale, you'd know that if you were using GPO for proofing). 2. ask if the composer intends for the player to tune the bottom string down to accommodate the lower notes, and, if so, shouldn't there be a note advising the player about that. I don't know what modern composers do with scordatura -- do they notate the fingered notes, or the sounding notes? I, for one, would have a really hard time playing the traditional fingered scordatura. I lower the bottom string of my gamba all the time to play continuo parts intended for cello (or for 7-string gamba), and have no problems whatsoever playing the sounding notation. Indeed, I often do this in the middle of concerts, from one piece to the next, and it gives me no problems. It seems to me that if a viol player as non-virtuosic as myself can handle this that it shouldn't be an issue at all for professional players of any instrument. Yes? No? Depends on the music? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
On 22-Feb-08, at 7:14 AM, shirling neueweise wrote: From a copyist, composers generally [expect] their score to be copied exactly as they gave it, no more and no less. Ha. I have played parts that were scanned in from the score, then sliced into long ribbons and pasted with Photoshop into a new document, then printed. It was next to illegible. The guy thought he was saving copyists fees. He was an idiot. The performers were wasting so much brain CPU cycles on deciphering the parts that it never did sound as good as it could have. further, in my view -- as a composer and as a copyist -- the composer is not always the person who knows best about their scores exactly because of the fact that they have spent so many months on the composition that they cannot distance themselves from things that actually hinder a proper rendition of the score by a performer who has not spent the same kind of obsessive focus (tunnel vision?) on the score. (this is not a comment on performer disengagement, that is another discussion altogether). Absolutely. I learned early on that the various professionals that I associate with in the course of a large project generally know their jobs better than I know their jobs and can make valuable contributions. I ignore them at my peril. I would say that the composer AND the copyist (and of course the conductor and the performers and everyone else) are there to best serve the project, NOT to best serve the composer's ego, though admittedly he is generally the guy who knows the most about it. If the copyist sees a valid point involving his job, then he should point it out. Of course, the final say rests with the guy signing the cheques, and perhaps jef SHOULD charge more if he experiences more aggravation. Job satisfaction comes in all shapes and sizes, after all. Christopher (who would hire jef in an instant if he ever had a budget that allowed it! And I would listen to his opinions about the music presentation and most likely agree with him! I'm not stupid, after all...) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
On 22-Feb-08, at 12:46 PM, shirling neueweise wrote: i did the orchestral parts for a not unknown orchestra in germany, there was a repeated pattern played 10+ times (can't remember exactly), the whole orchestra played almost the same rhythm, and all voices had quite similar but not exact contours on different notes. low note on the violas was C#, the whole pattern played in first position. then, suddenly, the whole orchestra shifts down a semitone for the final repetition. in this final repetition, the composer had written B#, which i felt made sense in this context, and we talked about it. you know, new music + orchestral score = sight reading in performance etc etc. we discussed both sides and eventually agreed we would leave it written as B# -- despite fingering considerations and other things -- because it was so absolutely clear on paper and to the ear. so after the performance, some keener from the viola section sez to the composer: yeh you know you wrote a low B# in the viola part. yeh, sez composer with eyebrow raised in curiosity, and? to which the violist replies that it was obviously an error so they played C# instead. A! [knocks head against brick wall repeatedly to deaden the pain from hearing that] Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
On 22 Feb 2008 at 15:31, Christopher Smith wrote: I have played parts that were scanned in from the score, then sliced into long ribbons and pasted with Photoshop into a new document, then printed. It was next to illegible. The guy thought he was saving copyists fees. He was an idiot. The performers were wasting so much brain CPU cycles on deciphering the parts that it never did sound as good as it could have. Well, my viol consort plays from such sets of parts a lot, because we're using editions that have old-style clefs and no parts available. When the printed parts are in the wrong clefs, I create new ones, but if I had to do it for everything, it would take weeks of work to get ready for any prep. period for concerts. I don't think it's all that bad. On the other hand, we do have several weeks to prepare usually (though we did a Feb. 5th Ash Wednesday service with only 4 viol rehearsals -- it want fine, for the *viols*). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Professional symphonic string players (violin, viola, cello), as a rule, ignore scordatura and find other ways to play these parts. They do not detune their instruments, as it can cause serious problems for their instruments. If a violinist plays a piece (Bartok _Contrasts_ , for example) that requires scordatura, he/she will bring a second, specially tuned instrument and switch for that passage. Double bass players will sometimes detune, especially the bottom string. It is much easier for them, do to the metal pegs. I was just perusing the Wikipedia Scordatura article, which has quite a list of a examples. Most are solo works that do not require retuning on the spot, or are obscure works. Here are some that are of interest: (quoting from Wikip) [1] # Igor Stravinsky's The Firebird is a rare, perhaps unique, piece which calls for the entire violin section to retune a string, in order to play some natural harmonics. Similarly, the final chord of his Rite of Spring requires the cellos to retune a string so it may be played open (unstopped by the fingers and consequently more resonant) as part of a quadruple stop. - [2]# Richard Strauss's tone poem Ein Heldenleben includes a passage in which the second violins must tune their G strings down in order to play a Gb. - [3]# Ottorino Respighi's tone poem The Pines of Rome requires the cellos to tune the low C string down to a B in the third movement. Also, the basses must either have a fifth low B string or tune a C extension down to the B in the third and fourth movements. --- My comments: [1} I suspect that violinists do not detune for the _Firebird_ passage but play it with artificial harmonics. I will try to remember to ask at our concert this evening. The last note in the _Rite_ for the cello is absurd - sections always divide these multiple stops anyway (for better sound and intonation) so the thought that they would retune for a quadruple stop is ridiculous - they simply handle it with divisi. (Although, who knows, some players may try it for fun - after playing the whole _Rite_, the cello might be ready to be loosened up for the night!) - [2] Don't know. The G string is easier to play with, so they might actually do this. Might depend on conductor's wishes and relative strength of conductor vs. concertmaster (yes, the concertmaster would watch out for the interests of the second violins) That is - if an MD wanted it he/she'd probably get it, if an unknown guest conductor wanted, not so much.. This is all my supposing here. Not recalling the passage, and not having a score, I don't know if violas or cellos can cover. - [3} Don't recall the third movement passage, I would have assumed the cellos played with the basses at the start of the 4th mvt. Again, I'll ask. Probably easier for cellos to detune the low string. The basses, in practice, tune down if they have a C extension or play it 8va if they do not. I have heard basses try to tune an E string down to a B - doesn't work well. (There is a new, quality low-cost extension to low B that is now available for bassists that is proving quite popular, BTW. http://www.kcstrings.com/bass-extensions.html ) --- These exceptions MAY be played, but these are in pieces firmly in the standard rep. An unknown composer bring his/her scordatura passage with violin playing several notes below its range into a symphony rehearsal will get nowhere. Yes, I know this may sound like the problems Berlioz and other greats had with innovation, but they managed to get the best new sounds out of instruments after working with the players. When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she said That's why God made violas. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra Composer, Arranger David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Feb 2008 at 9:54, Cecil Rigby wrote: For example, I copied a piece for a composition student last year that had violin playing several notes below its range. I knew this was going to draw criticism from the comp professor and so brought it to the young lady's attention. She promptly fired me and accused me of trying to derail her career. The way I'd handle this is two-fold: 1. my notation program won't let me enter those notes (or won't create a proper playback) because it says they are outside the instrument's range (and, of course, with Finale, you'd know that if you were using GPO for proofing). 2. ask if the composer intends for the player to tune the bottom string down to accommodate the lower notes, and, if so, shouldn't there be a note advising the player about that. I don't know what modern composers do with scordatura -- do they notate the fingered notes, or the sounding notes? I, for one, would have a really hard time playing the traditional fingered scordatura. I lower the bottom string of my gamba all the time to play continuo parts intended for cello (or
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
I imagine experienced violists have seen low B# on more than a few occasions. RBH Christopher Smith wrote: On 22-Feb-08, at 12:46 PM, shirling neueweise wrote: i did the orchestral parts for a not unknown orchestra in germany, there was a repeated pattern played 10+ times (can't remember exactly), the whole orchestra played almost the same rhythm, and all voices had quite similar but not exact contours on different notes. low note on the violas was C#, the whole pattern played in first position. then, suddenly, the whole orchestra shifts down a semitone for the final repetition. in this final repetition, the composer had written B#, which i felt made sense in this context, and we talked about it. you know, new music + orchestral score = sight reading in performance etc etc. we discussed both sides and eventually agreed we would leave it written as B# -- despite fingering considerations and other things -- because it was so absolutely clear on paper and to the ear. so after the performance, some keener from the viola section sez to the composer: yeh you know you wrote a low B# in the viola part. yeh, sez composer with eyebrow raised in curiosity, and? to which the violist replies that it was obviously an error so they played C# instead. A! [knocks head against brick wall repeatedly to deaden the pain from hearing that] Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Christopher Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have played parts that were scanned in from the score, then sliced into long ribbons and pasted with Photoshop into a new document, then printed. It was next to illegible. Ton Koopman had to do this for a series of Mozart concerts in Japan, the NMA had no parts available for rent, so he used this as a solution, but I get the impression he used a Xerox machine and glue sticks ;) I'm beginning to get a lot of freelance work for early music precisely for this sort of circumstance: the musicians or conductor have a score, but there are no parts available. And they're just too busy to bother with learning Finale or Sibelius. I'm not complaining though, the extra money is VERY nice. Interesting thread. Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
