Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Cool... if it's good enough for Wolfie On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:19 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > For anyone still interested, here's the ms. of those bars in Cosi: > > http://aaron.sherber.com/files/cosims.png > > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale The perfect drive..a diminishing sphere of white impaling the azure heavens in a graceful ellipticheight and distance vying for supremacy..compatriot's jowls lax, eyes huge, their raucous paeans thinly veiling jealousy..one stroke justifying a capricious investment in the titanium industry. Dean M. Estabrook http://sites.google.com/site/deanestabrook/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
For anyone still interested, here's the ms. of those bars in Cosi: http://aaron.sherber.com/files/cosims.png Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
I would share you hope as the best solution too, but a solid, or dashed line with a fermata centered above it wouldn't look too funky I think. Dean On Feb 12, 2012, at 6:17 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/12/2012 9:00 PM, John Howell wrote: >> Hmmm. Sibelius has both a start (left) bracket >> and an end (right) bracket under the Lines menu, >> although neither is dotted. Very handy for >> indicating ligatures or coloration in >> transcriptions of early notation. Does Finale >> lack these? > > Finale has these, but then I'd be placing three things in the score > -- a > left bracket, a fermata, and a right bracket. I think Robert's > intention > (and my hope) was a single custom line with a left hook, fermata in > the > middle, and right hook. But although Finale can put text in the middle > of a custom line, it apparently does not break the line to do so; it > floats the text (fermata, in this case) above the line. > > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale The perfect drive..a diminishing sphere of white impaling the azure heavens in a graceful ellipticheight and distance vying for supremacy..compatriot's jowls lax, eyes huge, their raucous paeans thinly veiling jealousy..one stroke justifying a capricious investment in the titanium industry. Dean M. Estabrook http://sites.google.com/site/deanestabrook/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On Sun Feb 12, at SundayFeb 12 9:17 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > > Finale has these, but then I'd be placing three things in the score -- a > left bracket, a fermata, and a right bracket. I think Robert's intention > (and my hope) was a single custom line with a left hook, fermata in the > middle, and right hook. But although Finale can put text in the middle > of a custom line, it apparently does not break the line to do so; it > floats the text (fermata, in this case) above the line. > > Aaron. If you make the fermata an expression with an opaque enclosure (zero lines), then you only have to place two items: the dotted smart line and the fermata, which I am hoping might cover the smart line if it operates as it should. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/12/2012 9:00 PM, John Howell wrote: > Hmmm. Sibelius has both a start (left) bracket > and an end (right) bracket under the Lines menu, > although neither is dotted. Very handy for > indicating ligatures or coloration in > transcriptions of early notation. Does Finale > lack these? Finale has these, but then I'd be placing three things in the score -- a left bracket, a fermata, and a right bracket. I think Robert's intention (and my hope) was a single custom line with a left hook, fermata in the middle, and right hook. But although Finale can put text in the middle of a custom line, it apparently does not break the line to do so; it floats the text (fermata, in this case) above the line. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 7:08 PM -0600 2/12/12, Robert Patterson wrote: >Dang you're right. I don't see any way to break the line in the middle, and >I was sure there was one, too. Hmmm. Sibelius has both a start (left) bracket and an end (right) bracket under the Lines menu, although neither is dotted. Very handy for indicating ligatures or coloration in transcriptions of early notation. Does Finale lack these? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
You could do it in the shape designer, but that's pretty painful. On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Robert Patterson < rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote: > Dang you're right. I don't see any way to break the line in the middle, > and I was sure there was one, too. > > > On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > >> On 2/12/2012 6:26 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: >> > Having seen the two versions of Cosi, it occurred to me that Aaron could >> > try a Finale-friendly notation that is not exactly what he's looking for >> > but may get the point across. That is a custom line with a normal >> fermata >> > centered in it, something like: >> >> Thanks, Robert, that's a very interesting idea. I just tried it, and it >> doesn't look bad. I can't find a way in the custom line tool to leave a >> space in the middle of the line, so the fermata is just floating a >> little above it, as Center Full text. >> >> I do suspect it will require a word of explanation to the player, >> though. (As opposed to the wide slur, which I think is more likely to be >> understood.) >> >> Aaron. >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Dang you're right. I don't see any way to break the line in the middle, and I was sure there was one, too. On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/12/2012 6:26 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > > Having seen the two versions of Cosi, it occurred to me that Aaron could > > try a Finale-friendly notation that is not exactly what he's looking for > > but may get the point across. That is a custom line with a normal fermata > > centered in it, something like: > > Thanks, Robert, that's a very interesting idea. I just tried it, and it > doesn't look bad. I can't find a way in the custom line tool to leave a > space in the middle of the line, so the fermata is just floating a > little above it, as Center Full text. > > I do suspect it will require a word of explanation to the player, > though. (As opposed to the wide slur, which I think is more likely to be > understood.) > > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/12/2012 6:26 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > Having seen the two versions of Cosi, it occurred to me that Aaron could > try a Finale-friendly notation that is not exactly what he's looking for > but may get the point across. That is a custom line with a normal fermata > centered in it, something like: Thanks, Robert, that's a very interesting idea. I just tried it, and it doesn't look bad. I can't find a way in the custom line tool to leave a space in the middle of the line, so the fermata is just floating a little above it, as Center Full text. I do suspect it will require a word of explanation to the player, though. (As opposed to the wide slur, which I think is more likely to be understood.) Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/12/2012 6:01 PM, John Howell wrote: > For what it's worth, I MUCH prefer the Peters (except for the flutes, > in which colla parte makes no sense because they do NOT move with the > voice), because using the conventional fermata and being careful with > its placement seems much clearer than the expanded one. I agree that the Peters notation for the instruments with rests seems clearer than the Barenreiter notation. I think the colla parte in the flutes may just be a misprint; I have the parts up in my attic but can't get to them right now. > It'd still be interesting to see Mozart's handwriting. John As it happens, I'll be somewhere tomorrow with a facsimile of the ms. I'll post a picture. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
It seems that after so much discussion (now missing the colorful voice of David Fenton), there is a consensus which is that the long fermata requested is not possible in Finale without a lot of hoop-jumping. Having seen the two versions of Cosi, it occurred to me that Aaron could try a Finale-friendly notation that is not exactly what he's looking for but may get the point across. That is a custom line with a normal fermata centered in it, something like: |---U---| (Where "U" is a fermata.) On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:01 PM, John Howell wrote: > At 4:42 PM -0500 2/12/12, Aaron Sherber wrote: > >In the Barenreiter, since the violins have the same rhythm as the > >voices, they also get the indication 'colla parte'. > > > >The Dover/Peters score has slightly different notation. You can see > >both here: > > > > http://aaron.sherber.com/files/cosi.png > > > >(In the Peters, m.27 is a problem. The flutes should have two half note > >rests with a fermata on the first, rather than a whole note rest with a > >fermata. Otherwise, they have no way of knowing that tempo resumes on > >beat 3.) > > > >Aaron. > > > For what it's worth, I MUCH prefer the Peters > (except for the flutes, in which colla parte > makes no sense because they do NOT move with the > voice), because using the conventional fermata > and being careful with its placement seems much > clearer than the expanded one. In fact the > expanded one simply looks like a weird slur in > its widest form. OK, I'm old fashioned. It'd > still be interesting to see Mozart's handwriting. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > School of Performing Arts & Cinema > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." > (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 4:42 PM -0500 2/12/12, Aaron Sherber wrote: >In the Barenreiter, since the violins have the same rhythm as the >voices, they also get the indication 'colla parte'. > >The Dover/Peters score has slightly different notation. You can see >both here: > > http://aaron.sherber.com/files/cosi.png > >(In the Peters, m.27 is a problem. The flutes should have two half note >rests with a fermata on the first, rather than a whole note rest with a >fermata. Otherwise, they have no way of knowing that tempo resumes on >beat 3.) > >Aaron. For what it's worth, I MUCH prefer the Peters (except for the flutes, in which colla parte makes no sense because they do NOT move with the voice), because using the conventional fermata and being careful with its placement seems much clearer than the expanded one. In fact the expanded one simply looks like a weird slur in its widest form. OK, I'm old fashioned. It'd still be interesting to see Mozart's handwriting. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
In the Barenreiter, since the violins have the same rhythm as the voices, they also get the indication 'colla parte'. The Dover/Peters score has slightly different notation. You can see both here: http://aaron.sherber.com/files/cosi.png (In the Peters, m.27 is a problem. The flutes should have two half note rests with a fermata on the first, rather than a whole note rest with a fermata. Otherwise, they have no way of knowing that tempo resumes on beat 3.) Aaron. On 2/12/2012 3:57 PM, Florence + Michael wrote: > In the parts it's the same as in the score (at least in the Bärenreiter > edition): the violins (who play a dotted half + quarter) have a long fermata > extending over the whole measure, the other instruments (who play a quarter > on beat one followed by rests) have a long fermata extending over the rests. > > On 12 Feb 2012, at 20:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: > >> and in the parts? >> >>> You can certainly get hold of a score of Cosi >>> Fan Tutte at http://imslp.org/ If the score is >>> correctly engraved, you will see a long fermata >>> over the whole of measure 26 in the Terzetto N° >>> 2. >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
In the parts it's the same as in the score (at least in the Bärenreiter edition): the violins (who play a dotted half + quarter) have a long fermata extending over the whole measure, the other instruments (who play a quarter on beat one followed by rests) have a long fermata extending over the rests. On 12 Feb 2012, at 20:29, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > and in the parts? > >> You can certainly get hold of a score of Cosi >> Fan Tutte at http://imslp.org/ If the score is >> correctly engraved, you will see a long fermata >> over the whole of measure 26 in the Terzetto N° >> 2. > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
and in the parts? >You can certainly get hold of a score of Cosi >Fan Tutte at http://imslp.org/ If the score is >correctly engraved, you will see a long fermata >over the whole of measure 26 in the Terzetto N° >2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
I would consider, as someone previously pointed out, bringing the same information to all players. As my opinion, I would probably consider using a fermata symbol for each player plus an ossia measure, much smaller in percentage, with the four sixteenth notes played by the soloist; I'd also specify the instrument's name playing the four notes just prior the ossia measures. The soloist could have a wide stretched fermata sign as well as four single ones, in any case, this should also be specified in all parts, in their ossia measures. Additionally, I would also consider inserting a special time text signature over the four notes, such as freely, liberamente, etc... instead of four single fermatas or a single wide one. In any case, any chosen solution for the soloist would always be reflected in the ossia measures and all the single notes below the ossia measures, played by the other instrumentalists, would have a single fermata sign. Giovanni Giovanni Andreani www.giovanniandreani.eu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
You can certainly get hold of a score of Cosi Fan Tutte at http://imslp.org/ If the score is correctly engraved, you will see a long fermata over the whole of measure 26 in the Terzetto N° 2. The rhythm is dotted half note - quarter note, for Ferrando, Guglielmo and all the violins. In this case I simply go from beating in 2 to beating in 4, using the left hand to clearly indicate the two notes for the violins. There are surely other ways to notate what Mozart wanted, but this way is perfectly clear, at least for an orchestra used to playing opera. In Aaron's case, I see no problem with the wide fermata. I'd add "dictated" since it apparently accompanies dance moves. On 11 Feb 2012, at 19:24, John Howell wrote: > At 11:32 AM +0100 2/11/12, Florence + Michael wrote: >> Wide fermatas are old notation: Mozart used >> them, for instance. In his operas you can find >> instances of wide fermatas over two or more >> notes. In most cases it's the singer who has >> several notes while the orchestra holds one >> note, but there are cases where the fermata >> extends over more than one note in the orchestra >> parts as well (for instance Cosi Fan Tutte, N° >> 2). Here Mozart writes "colla parte". > > > Thanks for that. I had never seen it, and I'd be > curious about how it was written (or engraved). > But in Mozart's case (and most other 18th century > composers, for that matter), a fermata was very > specificlly used to indicate where the soloist > was to improvise a cadenza. (It was also used, > of course, to indicate a "Fine" point after a Da > Capo.) > > So in the case you describe, I would suspect that > for the soloist it was a cadenza indication > (which would, of course, break the tempo), while > for the orchestra it might be an indication NOT > to cut off and leave the soloist alone, which > would otherwise have been the default behavior. > Could you possibly give an example? The only > score I actually have at hand is the piano-vocal > score to "Don Giovanni." > > Just to clarify my original point, I wasn't > saying that this (or any other notational > convention) should NOT be used, but that the > composer might want to ask whether he or she is > writing for musicians who will understand it and > interpret it appropriately. And no matter where > or when this may have been used, or by whom, it > still isn't standard practice. (If it were, > Finale would include it, right?!!) > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > School of Performing Arts & Cinema > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." > (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 10:44 PM -0500 2/11/12, Raymond Horton wrote: >On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > >> On 2/11/2012 9:29 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: >> > Yeah, but this is what we do here: >> > >> > "Q: How do I do THIS?" >> > "A: No, no, no! HERE's what you should do: ..." To be fair, we don't always have the whole picture. "It's what the client wants" is a fairly strong argument! (Although there have been plenty of instances where someone has said, "Well, he SHOULDN'T!") Don't forget that there are composers, arrangers, engravers, copyists, and even publishers on the List, each with rather different needs and problems. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/11/2012 9:29 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: > > Yeah, but this is what we do here: > > > > "Q: How do I do THIS?" > > "A: No, no, no! HERE's what you should do: ..." > > Oh, I'm not complaining. As I said, a very interesting discussion. The > only thing that's missing is the voice of the late David Fenton, who I > feel certain would have had a strong opinion on the topic. > > Aaron. > > Ya think? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Wouldn’t the discussion evaporate, if we made this a white fermata? Klaus > > From: Aaron Sherber >To: finale@shsu.edu >Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 3:44 AM >Subject: Re: [Finale] Wide fermata > >On 2/11/2012 9:29 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: >> Yeah, but this is what we do here: >> >> "Q: How do I do THIS?" >> "A: No, no, no! HERE's what you should do: ..." > >Oh, I'm not complaining. As I said, a very interesting discussion. > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/11/2012 9:29 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: > Yeah, but this is what we do here: > > "Q: How do I do THIS?" > "A: No, no, no! HERE's what you should do: ..." Oh, I'm not complaining. As I said, a very interesting discussion. The only thing that's missing is the voice of the late David Fenton, who I feel certain would have had a strong opinion on the topic. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
> > > I do find this a very interesting discussion, but I'd also like to point > out that my original question was just how to accomplish this in FInale, > not what the best notation would be. > > Thanks, > Aaron. > Yeah, but this is what we do here: "Q: How do I do THIS?" "A: No, no, no! HERE's what you should do: ..." (This thread has gotten a bit extreme - something like 35 messages, now, and we aren't getting anywhere in the last 33 or so.) > Raymond Horton > Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra > Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC > Composer, Arranger > VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com > > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/11/2012 1:02 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > I agree emphatically with everything Chris says here. Unless the notes are > all seriously elongated, and detached (the player breathes between each > note), a fermata on each note seems like overkill. Yes, I agree. > And if the notes are meant to be connected, played as a single melodic > phrase, conducting each note also seems like overkill -- or as Chris said, > control freak territory. Not when you're accompanying dance. > Aaron, I know you are for some reason somewhat attached to this "wide > fermatta" idea, but if the responses on this list are any indication, hardly > anyone likes it or thinks it's a good solution. I can appreciate that. I haven't changed my mind, though. > Or you could just cuing the moving part in all the resting parts, which is > probably the most unambiguous option. Yes, that's a very good idea, and something I thought about earlier today. It would make things clearer, although I'm not sure it's needed. I do find this a very interesting discussion, but I'd also like to point out that my original question was just how to accomplish this in FInale, not what the best notation would be. Thanks, Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/11/2012 11:20 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: > Does the passage actually sound like a dotted eighth and two > sixteenths once every note has a fermata on it? I wouldn't think so. > Why not use notation that reflects the actual sound? Because I didn't write the piece. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 9:02 AM -0500 2/11/12, Aaron Sherber wrote: > >I'll add one final detail to the discussion. I initially said that the >single moving part had 4 sixteenth notes. In fact, the instrument has a >dotted eighth and two 32nd notes. For those of you who felt that seeing >four 16th rests with fermatas was fine, does this change your opinion? >Personally, even if I were inclined to use the fermatas with the 16ths, >the thought of dotted 8th and two 32nd rests with fermatas feels very >different. There are times when a little extra effort in the engraving can save a lot of valuable rehearsal time, and perhaps this is one of them. How about indicating the moving part in cue notes, or even in an ossiah above the staff? Then the single fermata in the parts can remain simple but the ongoing activity would be perfectly clear. You're right that there are several variables. But you can have simple and confusing, complicated and confusing, or complicated and clear, but what you really WANT is simple and clear! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 8:24 AM -0500 2/11/12, David H. Bailey wrote: > >Interesting -- in my experience that sort of thing requires explanation >since people are confused about what is happening and whether they >should follow my left hand or the stick. Our community band conductor has as clear a stick as anyone in the business, but the same thing still happens not only in this case (a held note with moving parts), but in the case of a held note followed by a pickup to the next measure by SOMEONE that isn't indicated in the parts. THAT is a case where a cued note would help a lot. But it takes a series of explanations every time. Off Topic, but perhaps illustrating what can actually be done. One of my mentors in grad school, Fiora Contino, had been assigned to conduct an opera while still a grad student (quite unusual at Indiana, who prided themselves on presenting a full scale opera production every weekend during the academic year). There was an offstage chorus in one scene. They had a TV hookup, they had an offstage assistant conductor, but nothing worked, and the chorus was always behind the beat. So Fiora told them, "Orchestra, watch my right hand. Chorus, watch my left hand, and I'll conduct a half-beat ahead for you." And she did. AND IT WORKED!!! Opera is weird! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/10/2012 12:31 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > I always use George Crumb style fermatas in these situations, which as it > happens are much easier to create. (You can do it with the custom line > tool.) But that's not what you asked for. That would be a fallback solution. I think it's a little out of place in the particular style of piece I'm currently engraving, but I'm sure the players would understand it. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 6:30 AM -0500 2/11/12, Raymond Horton wrote: >Just imagine sitting in an orchestra, while it is being conducted. What do >you see on the page, what do you see in the stick? Sure, Mozart put a big >fermata over the voice part - and today's conductor can hold the stick >while the singer takes time with those notes - easy. > >But if the conductor is conducting a player in several held notes while >every one else has one fermata, then he.she has to stop and talk first, and >there is still a potential for a mistake - not easy. I have to agree, although this is NOT a really big conducting problem. With one hand held high and still the other can dictate the note changes. BUT the possibility of misunderstanding is still there, even for a major orchestra and a highly skilled conductor, and almost certainly for a volunteer or amateur ensemble. That's why I agree with both David and Ray that all parts should show the same rhythmic breakdown with ties. But composers hardly ever do that. Fermatas in general are any conductor's bugaboo, from first-semester conducting class on up the ladder, and it does take skill and practice to conduct them well and clearly. The opening of Beethoven's 5th is a notorious case, even though everyone KNOWS what it's supposed to sound like, and that's a case where a conductor can easily do more harm than good by overconducting! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 11:32 AM +0100 2/11/12, Florence + Michael wrote: >Wide fermatas are old notation: Mozart used >them, for instance. In his operas you can find >instances of wide fermatas over two or more >notes. In most cases it's the singer who has >several notes while the orchestra holds one >note, but there are cases where the fermata >extends over more than one note in the orchestra >parts as well (for instance Cosi Fan Tutte, N° >2). Here Mozart writes "colla parte". Thanks for that. I had never seen it, and I'd be curious about how it was written (or engraved). But in Mozart's case (and most other 18th century composers, for that matter), a fermata was very specificlly used to indicate where the soloist was to improvise a cadenza. (It was also used, of course, to indicate a "Fine" point after a Da Capo.) So in the case you describe, I would suspect that for the soloist it was a cadenza indication (which would, of course, break the tempo), while for the orchestra it might be an indication NOT to cut off and leave the soloist alone, which would otherwise have been the default behavior. Could you possibly give an example? The only score I actually have at hand is the piano-vocal score to "Don Giovanni." Just to clarify my original point, I wasn't saying that this (or any other notational convention) should NOT be used, but that the composer might want to ask whether he or she is writing for musicians who will understand it and interpret it appropriately. And no matter where or when this may have been used, or by whom, it still isn't standard practice. (If it were, Finale would include it, right?!!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
I agree emphatically with everything Chris says here. Unless the notes are all seriously elongated, and detached (the player breathes between each note), a fermata on each note seems like overkill. And if the notes are meant to be connected, played as a single melodic phrase, conducting each note also seems like overkill -- or as Chris said, control freak territory. Aaron, I know you are for some reason somewhat attached to this "wide fermatta" idea, but if the responses on this list are any indication, hardly anyone likes it or thinks it's a good solution. That said, I am in agreement that some of the proposed solutions are perhaps a bit fussy for this context. But there exists a happy medium: previously I suggested a "molto rit." with a fermata on the last sixteenth rest -- another possibility would be the same notation, but with "rubato" instead of "molto rit." Or you could just cuing the moving part in all the resting parts, which is probably the most unambiguous option. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 11 Feb 2012, at 11:20 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: > > On Sat Feb 11, at SaturdayFeb 11 9:02 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > >> I'll add one final detail to the discussion. I initially said that the >> single moving part had 4 sixteenth notes. In fact, the instrument has a >> dotted eighth and two 32nd notes. For those of you who felt that seeing >> four 16th rests with fermatas was fine, does this change your opinion? >> Personally, even if I were inclined to use the fermatas with the 16ths, >> the thought of dotted 8th and two 32nd rests with fermatas feels very >> different. > > Does the passage actually sound like a dotted eighth and two sixteenths once > every note has a fermata on it? I wouldn't think so. Why not use notation > that reflects the actual sound? > > Is it just dictated, not really fermatas where the pulse stops? I would think > musicians can deal with that with one fermata. > > Christopher > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On Sat Feb 11, at SaturdayFeb 11 9:02 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > I'll add one final detail to the discussion. I initially said that the > single moving part had 4 sixteenth notes. In fact, the instrument has a > dotted eighth and two 32nd notes. For those of you who felt that seeing > four 16th rests with fermatas was fine, does this change your opinion? > Personally, even if I were inclined to use the fermatas with the 16ths, > the thought of dotted 8th and two 32nd rests with fermatas feels very > different. Does the passage actually sound like a dotted eighth and two sixteenths once every note has a fermata on it? I wouldn't think so. Why not use notation that reflects the actual sound? Is it just dictated, not really fermatas where the pulse stops? I would think musicians can deal with that with one fermata. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On Sat Feb 11, at SaturdayFeb 11 8:03 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > On Sat, February 11, 2012 7:55 am, Aaron Sherber wrote: >> On 2/11/2012 6:30 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: >>> But if the conductor is conducting a player in several held notes while >>> every one else has one fermata, then he.she has to stop and talk first, and >>> there is still a potential for a mistake - not easy. >> >> I would conduct the player gently with my left hand while the stick >> remains stationary, dead center. In my experience, this sort of thing >> does not cause confusion. > > Unfortunately, I just had this experience with my opera. I thought one fermata > was just fine in the other parts because they would be watching the stick. > Wrong. I learned that everybody wants the exactly the same thing, even > breaking a whole rest into smaller values, each with fermatas. I don't know if > this is a consequence of the greater specificity of contemporary music > creating a new expectation, but the practice of giving fermatas only the the > largest note value in a part doesn't work anymore. > > Dennis I don't understand why a single moving part needs to be conducted so specifically. Why doesn't the player just play it (obeying whatever instructions are on it) while the conductor holds a fermata? Or, if there is some sort of action to be matched, or the single part is a section of violins, or the conductor (or composer) wants to be a control freak (and who among them doesn't?) a single ordinary fermata on the other parts with a cue from the moving instrument would give a lot of info. In the conductor-less chamber music I write, cues are our conductor in those passages. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
>On the other hand, when a part becomes too cluttered with >instructions, I believe that can also be an impediment to >comprehension; this is not "cluttered with instructions", it is a symbol and performances practice that every musician with the most basic training understands immediately; any musician who doesn't comprehend what a fermata over a rest or note means should go back to school. 100% clarity, with no explanations to any professional or even amateur musician. >... dotted eighth and two 32nd notes. For those of you who felt that >seeing four 16th rests with fermatas was fine, does this change your >opinion? nope >Personally, even if I were inclined to use the fermatas with the >16ths, the thought of dotted 8th and two 32nd rests with fermatas >feels very different. same issue, different durational values under the fermata >By the way, I will easily grant Dennis's point that in contemporary >music the individual rests with fermatas might well be the better >solution, regardless of the note values. But that is not the style >I'm working in. that doesn't change anything, the musician may have the experience of contemporary music and/or appreciate the need today for a different degree of precision in the notation for such contexts. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/11/2012 8:03 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > I don't know if > this is a consequence of the greater specificity of contemporary music > creating a new expectation, but the practice of giving fermatas only the the > largest note value in a part doesn't work anymore. Again, I think there are several variables here. In general, I agree with the principle that each part should show exactly the same thing. But in the specific case I'm looking at here, because of the style of the music, the particular music at this spot, and my own experience as a conductor, I think the wide fermata is the best overall solution. I've used the term "fussy" a couple of times to refer to solutions which are technically quite correct but more detailed than I think they need to be. Obviously, my first priority in preparing parts is to try to make everything as clear as can be for the players. Rehearsal time is a conductor's most valuable commodity, and 5 minutes spent explaining unclear notation is 5 minutes lost. On the other hand, when a part becomes too cluttered with instructions, I believe that can also be an impediment to comprehension; after all, we don't generally notate every specific gradation in dynamics or tempo. "Clear" notation ought to be simple as well as specific. So I try to strike a considered balance. In my judgement, the wide fermata here is clear notation and will most likely work with no explanation; at worst it will take 5 words of explanation (not 5 minutes), which to me is an acceptable tradeoff. I'll add one final detail to the discussion. I initially said that the single moving part had 4 sixteenth notes. In fact, the instrument has a dotted eighth and two 32nd notes. For those of you who felt that seeing four 16th rests with fermatas was fine, does this change your opinion? Personally, even if I were inclined to use the fermatas with the 16ths, the thought of dotted 8th and two 32nd rests with fermatas feels very different. By the way, I will easily grant Dennis's point that in contemporary music the individual rests with fermatas might well be the better solution, regardless of the note values. But that is not the style I'm working in. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/11/2012 8:24 AM, David H. Bailey wrote: > Interesting -- in my experience that sort of thing requires explanation > since people are confused about what is happening and whether they > should follow my left hand or the stick. It depends a lot on how exactly the conductor does it, and a bit on what kind of players he's working with. In my case, the score I'm working on is exclusively for my own use, although I suspect I would still favor this notation even if it weren't. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On Sat, February 11, 2012 7:55 am, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/11/2012 6:30 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: >> But if the conductor is conducting a player in several held notes while >> every one else has one fermata, then he.she has to stop and talk first, and >> there is still a potential for a mistake - not easy. > > I would conduct the player gently with my left hand while the stick > remains stationary, dead center. In my experience, this sort of thing > does not cause confusion. Unfortunately, I just had this experience with my opera. I thought one fermata was just fine in the other parts because they would be watching the stick. Wrong. I learned that everybody wants the exactly the same thing, even breaking a whole rest into smaller values, each with fermatas. I don't know if this is a consequence of the greater specificity of contemporary music creating a new expectation, but the practice of giving fermatas only the the largest note value in a part doesn't work anymore. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/11/2012 7:55 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/11/2012 6:30 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: >> But if the conductor is conducting a player in several held notes while >> every one else has one fermata, then he.she has to stop and talk first, and >> there is still a potential for a mistake - not easy. > > I would conduct the player gently with my left hand while the stick > remains stationary, dead center. In my experience, this sort of thing > does not cause confusion. > Interesting -- in my experience that sort of thing requires explanation since people are confused about what is happening and whether they should follow my left hand or the stick. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/11/2012 6:30 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: > But if the conductor is conducting a player in several held notes while > every one else has one fermata, then he.she has to stop and talk first, and > there is still a potential for a mistake - not easy. I would conduct the player gently with my left hand while the stick remains stationary, dead center. In my experience, this sort of thing does not cause confusion. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/11/2012 6:30 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: > Just imagine sitting in an orchestra, while it is being conducted. What do > you see on the page, what do you see in the stick? Sure, Mozart put a big > fermata over the voice part - and today's conductor can hold the stick > while the singer takes time with those notes - easy. > > But if the conductor is conducting a player in several held notes while > every one else has one fermata, then he.she has to stop and talk first, and > there is still a potential for a mistake - not easy. > [snip] All parts and the score need to agree to minimize confusion and minimize wasting time with needless explanations. If there are to be 4 held notes in any part, they need to be indicated in all parts. If I had a nickel for every time I've had to explain and then re-explain for those who weren't listening and then re-re-explain for those who were listening but were still confused during my community band rehearsals where the composer/arranger/engraver didn't mark everybody's part the same, I'd be a wealthy man now. Having 4 fermatas isn't fussy at all -- it's clear. And putting the same over rests in others' parts is also clear. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Just imagine sitting in an orchestra, while it is being conducted. What do you see on the page, what do you see in the stick? Sure, Mozart put a big fermata over the voice part - and today's conductor can hold the stick while the singer takes time with those notes - easy. But if the conductor is conducting a player in several held notes while every one else has one fermata, then he.she has to stop and talk first, and there is still a potential for a mistake - not easy. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Florence + Michael wrote: > Wide fermatas are old notation: Mozart used them, for instance. In his > operas you can find instances of wide fermatas over two or more notes. In > most cases it's the singer who has several notes while the orchestra holds > one note, but there are cases where the fermata extends over more than one > note in the orchestra parts as well (for instance Cosi Fan Tutte, N° 2). > Here Mozart writes "colla parte". > > I'd create the fermata in a graphics program and import it. > > > On 11 Feb 2012, at 04:48, Aaron Sherber wrote: > > > On 2/10/2012 12:20 PM, John Howell wrote: > >> And unless you know that you are writing for > >> musicians who are familiar with new notational > >> conventions, I would urge you NOT to invent new > >> signs, or new meanings for old and understood > >> sings, which then have to be explained in text. > >> If I came across Aaron's wide fermata I would > >> have no idea at all how to interpret it, but I > >> would NOT interpret it as he means it. > > > > Hmm. I take your point, John, but I'm quite sure that I'm not inventing > > this notation and that I've seen it in other scores. I want to say it > > was in vocal music, where the voice has a few melismatic notes over a > > held note in the accompaniment. That would be a situation very similar > > to the one I have, except that the vocal notes weren't dictated. > > > > Aaron. > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Wide fermatas are old notation: Mozart used them, for instance. In his operas you can find instances of wide fermatas over two or more notes. In most cases it's the singer who has several notes while the orchestra holds one note, but there are cases where the fermata extends over more than one note in the orchestra parts as well (for instance Cosi Fan Tutte, N° 2). Here Mozart writes "colla parte". I'd create the fermata in a graphics program and import it. On 11 Feb 2012, at 04:48, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/10/2012 12:20 PM, John Howell wrote: >> And unless you know that you are writing for >> musicians who are familiar with new notational >> conventions, I would urge you NOT to invent new >> signs, or new meanings for old and understood >> sings, which then have to be explained in text. >> If I came across Aaron's wide fermata I would >> have no idea at all how to interpret it, but I >> would NOT interpret it as he means it. > > Hmm. I take your point, John, but I'm quite sure that I'm not inventing > this notation and that I've seen it in other scores. I want to say it > was in vocal music, where the voice has a few melismatic notes over a > held note in the accompaniment. That would be a situation very similar > to the one I have, except that the vocal notes weren't dictated. > > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
I believe he difference there is that all the notes under the big fermata are done by one player or singer, while the accompanist or conductor waits - not dictated by a conductor of a larger group, whose conducting of multiple fermatas will confuse the players who have only one in the part. Write the busiest part the best way you can to indicate how you want it performed, either with "rit" "ten"s, fermata signs or longer rhythms, then notate everyone else's part with the same rhythms and signs, either with rests or tied notes. Problem solved. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/10/2012 12:20 PM, John Howell wrote: > > And unless you know that you are writing for > > musicians who are familiar with new notational > > conventions, I would urge you NOT to invent new > > signs, or new meanings for old and understood > > sings, which then have to be explained in text. > > If I came across Aaron's wide fermata I would > > have no idea at all how to interpret it, but I > > would NOT interpret it as he means it. > > Hmm. I take your point, John, but I'm quite sure that I'm not inventing > this notation and that I've seen it in other scores. I want to say it > was in vocal music, where the voice has a few melismatic notes over a > held note in the accompaniment. That would be a situation very similar > to the one I have, except that the vocal notes weren't dictated. > > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/10/2012 12:20 PM, John Howell wrote: > And unless you know that you are writing for > musicians who are familiar with new notational > conventions, I would urge you NOT to invent new > signs, or new meanings for old and understood > sings, which then have to be explained in text. > If I came across Aaron's wide fermata I would > have no idea at all how to interpret it, but I > would NOT interpret it as he means it. Hmm. I take your point, John, but I'm quite sure that I'm not inventing this notation and that I've seen it in other scores. I want to say it was in vocal music, where the voice has a few melismatic notes over a held note in the accompaniment. That would be a situation very similar to the one I have, except that the vocal notes weren't dictated. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
At 4:57 PM +0100 2/10/12, SN jef chippewa wrote: > >i don't see it as too fussy at all to have a fermata on each 16th, >maybe add "(short)" though on the 1st one. but i think molto rit. -- >or, better, molto ritenuto -- might better convey what you want. Aaron did NOT ask for a molto ritard, or at least did not mention one. He said, "each sixteenth is meant to be elongated, and in this particular case will be dictated by the conductor." Sounds pretty clearcut, and like Jef I don't see a fermata on each 16th as fussy at all. In fact it's clear and precise. I would probably add only the single word "Dictated." And unless you know that you are writing for musicians who are familiar with new notational conventions, I would urge you NOT to invent new signs, or new meanings for old and understood sings, which then have to be explained in text. If I came across Aaron's wide fermata I would have no idea at all how to interpret it, but I would NOT interpret it as he means it. Sibelius gives several different forms of fermata, none of which I will ever use, because I don't know what they mean and have never come across them in real music. Just for a little historical background, our fermata sign is only one out of several that came into use in the 13th century as a "signum congruentiae"--a "coming together sign"--in several of the dance tunes found in 13th and 14th century manuscripts. These were, in fact, sort of like repeat signs which allowed repetitive sections to be linked together without taking up extra space on expensive parchment. And by the 15th century they were also used to indicate the center point (where we would use a double bar) in an AB song form. And our fermata sign itself still had that earlier meaning rather than being a "hold on" sign at least as late as Bach, which has confounded generations of students when they trip over them in his chorale settings. We still recognize that earlier meaning when the sign indicates a Fine after a Da Capo or Dal Segno. So I'm not at all saying the notation hasn't changed over time, or that conventional signs can't be given new meanings. It has, and they can! But they you face the inevitable problem of explaining your new meanings to players who don't automatically understand them. It's a little like the invented language, Esperanto, which was perfectly logical and consistent, but failed because in fact no one spoke it! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/10/2012 11:54 AM, Steve Parker wrote: > I definitely use one over each. For short > fermata I use triangle ones. > They also look less fussy chained up. > Steve P. > A voice of dissent concerning the use of triangle fermatas -- don't use them, please. Notation programs seem to make them look a lot like the upside-down V accent over a staccato note. I just ran into that situation in a concert band arrangement I purchased and am rehearsing with my community band -- half the band understood them to be heavy accents on staccato notes, and the other band asked me why I wasn't observing the fermatas and then asked why they were triangle shaped. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/10/2012 11:29 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/10/2012 10:57 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: >>but i think molto rit. -- >> or, better, molto ritenuto -- might better convey what you want. > > I considered that. But an old teacher of mine used to say that one > should take into account those who are not playing as much as those who > are playing. For those who are not playing in that bar, or who have just > a quarter note on the beat in question, molto rit implies that the beat > continues in some fashion, and the left hand cues to the one moving > instrument will confuse the matter. A fermata on that beat clearly tells > the player that we're going to pause here a moment until the conductor's > baton gives the next beat. > Your old teacher is right -- let everybody know clearly what is happening. Whatever you do, put it *exactly* the same in everybody's part, please, to save rehearsal time while the conductor explains what's happening and then explains it again to those who weren't listening the first time and then has to explain it a third time to those who listened but hadn't got a clue. If you want 4 holds, put 4 fermatas, one on each 16th note, and put 4 16th-rests in each part with a fermata on each one, so that everybody will understand that there are 4 fermatas. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Yeah, that sucks. I was thinking you could individually change the line thickness, but it doesn't work for the slur tool. Grrr. I always use George Crumb style fermatas in these situations, which as it happens are much easier to create. (You can do it with the custom line tool.) But that's not what you asked for. On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/10/2012 12:17 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > > It seems like you could make one in the Shape Designer without too much > > trouble (using the slur tool and a dot). > > The slur tool isn't as thick as I'd like. On the forums, someone did > this by stacking several slurs in the shape designer with slightly > different curvature. > > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/10/2012 12:17 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: > It seems like you could make one in the Shape Designer without too much > trouble (using the slur tool and a dot). The slur tool isn't as thick as I'd like. On the forums, someone did this by stacking several slurs in the shape designer with slightly different curvature. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
It seems like you could make one in the Shape Designer without too much trouble (using the slur tool and a dot). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
I definitely use one over each. For short fermata I use triangle ones. They also look less fussy chained up. Steve P. On 10 Feb 2012, at 14:51, Aaron Sherber wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone have any ideas for putting a wide fermata in Finale? > > Example of use: All instruments have a fermata on a quarter note, except > for one instrument which has 4 sixteenths on that beat. Each sixteenth > is meant to be elongated, and in this particular case will be dictated > by the conductor, but a fermata over each sixteenth is too fussy and > also makes each note seem longer than it should be. What I want is a > single stretched fermata that can go in this instrument over all 4 > sixteenths. > > I've played around with some shape expressions, but nothing > satisfactory. The closest I've gotten so far is a Maestro fermata I > converted to outlines in Illustrator, stretched, saved as a TIF, and > placed as a graphic. But since graphic placement is by EVPU, not EDU, > these require adjustment each time layout changes a little. > > Anybody have something pre-made? Is there a third-party font that > includes a set of these? > > Thanks, > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Hi Aaron, There isn't any easy way to get a wide fermata -- especially if you want it to be stretchable, or of varying width. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 10 Feb 2012, at 11:54 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/10/2012 11:42 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: >> My solution would be molto rit with a fermatta on the last sixteenth for >> everyone (so players not playing would have a dotted eight rest followed by >> a sixteenth rest w/fermatta. That is fairly standard and unambiguous. > > You're right -- absolutely correct and clear -- but again a little > fussier than I like to see on the page. > > I know from experience that the notation I'm after works fine. My > question is really just about the easiest way to get a wide fermata in > Finale. > > Thanks, > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/10/2012 11:42 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > My solution would be molto rit with a fermatta on the last sixteenth for > everyone (so players not playing would have a dotted eight rest followed by a > sixteenth rest w/fermatta. That is fairly standard and unambiguous. You're right -- absolutely correct and clear -- but again a little fussier than I like to see on the page. I know from experience that the notation I'm after works fine. My question is really just about the easiest way to get a wide fermata in Finale. Thanks, Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Hi Aaron, My solution would be molto rit with a fermatta on the last sixteenth for everyone (so players not playing would have a dotted eight rest followed by a sixteenth rest w/fermatta. That is fairly standard and unambiguous. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 10 Feb 2012, at 11:29 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote: > On 2/10/2012 10:57 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: >> but i think molto rit. -- >> or, better, molto ritenuto -- might better convey what you want. > > I considered that. But an old teacher of mine used to say that one > should take into account those who are not playing as much as those who > are playing. For those who are not playing in that bar, or who have just > a quarter note on the beat in question, molto rit implies that the beat > continues in some fashion, and the left hand cues to the one moving > instrument will confuse the matter. A fermata on that beat clearly tells > the player that we're going to pause here a moment until the conductor's > baton gives the next beat. > > Thanks, > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
On 2/10/2012 10:57 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: > but i think molto rit. -- > or, better, molto ritenuto -- might better convey what you want. I considered that. But an old teacher of mine used to say that one should take into account those who are not playing as much as those who are playing. For those who are not playing in that bar, or who have just a quarter note on the beat in question, molto rit implies that the beat continues in some fashion, and the left hand cues to the one moving instrument will confuse the matter. A fermata on that beat clearly tells the player that we're going to pause here a moment until the conductor's baton gives the next beat. Thanks, Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
molto rit. for what aaron asks for should be on the 1st 16th of the 4th quarter i don't see it as too fussy at all to have a fermata on each 16th, maybe add "(short)" though on the 1st one. but i think molto rit. -- or, better, molto ritenuto -- might better convey what you want. >It's not what you asked for, but a fermata on the last sixteenth >with a "molto rit." or "directed" might convey the intended effect. >Your solution, though, is exactly what I would have tried. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wide fermata
Hi, Aaron. It's not what you asked for, but a fermata on the last sixteenth with a "molto rit." or "directed" might convey the intended effect. Your solution, though, is exactly what I would have tried. Dr. Benjamin Ayotte http://www.ayottemusic.com Sent from my iPhone On Feb 10, 2012, at 9:51, Aaron Sherber wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone have any ideas for putting a wide fermata in Finale? > > Example of use: All instruments have a fermata on a quarter note, except > for one instrument which has 4 sixteenths on that beat. Each sixteenth > is meant to be elongated, and in this particular case will be dictated > by the conductor, but a fermata over each sixteenth is too fussy and > also makes each note seem longer than it should be. What I want is a > single stretched fermata that can go in this instrument over all 4 > sixteenths. > > I've played around with some shape expressions, but nothing > satisfactory. The closest I've gotten so far is a Maestro fermata I > converted to outlines in Illustrator, stretched, saved as a TIF, and > placed as a graphic. But since graphic placement is by EVPU, not EDU, > these require adjustment each time layout changes a little. > > Anybody have something pre-made? Is there a third-party font that > includes a set of these? > > Thanks, > Aaron. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
