Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mary Nelson Thank you Phillip for clearly & objectively discussing evaluations. As a soon to be owner of a fjord - I find evaluations are extremely helpful in educating myself on what constitutes a quality fjord & correct fjord conformation. Obviously there are variations - lighter build to draft style based on what each person intends to do with their horses. Coming from the Appaloosa world where a disregard for the long-term effects of outcrossing has resulted in many horses with little or no real appaloosa characteristics - I find the ability to use the evaluation process to objectively evaluate my own & other fjords a positive idea. As a future small breeder - I would certainly look to evaluated stallions to assist in determining the best cross with my mare to maximize good qualities & compensate for any short comings. I love the fact that fjords are being used to do pretty much anything and support the NFHR to continue the focus on maintaining a pure breed. Mary From: PHILLIP Odden To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 12:12:44 PM Subject: Evaluations This message is from: PHILLIP Odden This message is from Phillip Odden in Northwestern Wisconsin. For some reason I feel compelled to state the case, as I see it, for attending an NFHR evaluation this year. The modern Fjord Horse that has traveled to us from Europe is the product of selective breeding. That means that the Norwegians as well as other European countries have established programs to evaluate and select breeding stock to improve or perhaps not improve all aspects of the Fjords in their countries. At least all breeding animals need to be evaluated if the animals are to be registered. In the USA the NFHR is one of the few registries that offers an evaluation program to its membership. It comes down to form and function. Fjord Horses are supposed to have good quality in their legs. Our Breed standard says so. If you breed animals with poor legs to animals with poor legs, the legs of the animals you breed will have poorer and poorer legs. I do not think people are born with the knowledge to understand the defects and qualities of legs in Fjord Horses. The NFHR evaluation program offers an independent opinion by two trained evaluators who understand leg quality. They also evaluate quality in heads, necks, movement, body muscling and above all the breed characteristics that a Fjord horse should have. With performance tests we are able to evaluate trainability and disposition as well as athletic ability. The proof is in the pudding as they say. NFHR and CFHA evaluation program offers a good tool to understand more about the Fjords you are breeding, buying or using. The question is, Will the Fjords that you are now breeding have as good or better quality than the ones that have been imported from countries with Evaluation and selective breeding programs? And, how will you know? Thinking of the quality of future Fjord Horses respectfully, Phillip Odden Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: evaluations/breeding stock
This message is from: morrisshado...@aol.com "I am not a breeder nor do I want to be.Ã From what little I know and observe As a breeder I will give my observation. #1 You have to have a market to give value to your animals. Right now there is not much of a market ( no matter what breed or quality you are). #2 Gathering information about your breed from just one source is not going to give you the real picture. #3 Know your market. Most Americans are emotional, compulsive pet lovers. So yes they are going to buy a Fjord because they are cute, cuddly and yes temperament. Most will not buy the highly priced import of perfection (which is quite inexpensive to purchase in Europe)unless the status of the origin is the drive behind purchase. #4 If you canvas our great nation you will find may high quality fjords being produced(you do have to look) . All with the same lineage and diversity as the European counter parts. #5 The grass always seems green on the other side. #6 What do people really do with their Fjord? If you want to go and win a race ( you will not buy a Fjord) as far a diversity goes the quarter horse wins that hands down. Hm what is the original use of the Fjord (family tractor). #7 Any breeder who gets involved in breeding with the thought that they are going to make a buck will become re-educated as soon as they start. #8 Fjords are not puppie milled or mass-produced (just look at the # of foals registered annually) #9 Fact the breed is going to change. It already has and will continue if it wants to survive. It has to progress with the fashion of the times, peoples needs, wants, desires. #10 When we have quality the trend tends to become what is (in) at that point in time. Everyone does not have the same criteria for what is beautiful to them. #11 Most people in the US do not breed. They have lots of emotional non objective, non-intellectual stress relieving enjoyment from their Fjord. I could go on, but I have to go and feed, clean up after, train, brush and emotionally kiss my multi- million (no billion) $ breeding machine:0) American humor (Just in case) Bonnie Morris and Lordie of the Fjordies tooo cute for words! western Washington Gray sky's possible sun breaks, showers, hail, in the lower 40s with a chance of 70 crazy spring weather! Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Evaluations in Moses Lake?
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:21 PM 4/17/2007, you wrote: This message is from: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hey PNW Fjorders, Did I miss something here? Is there going to be an Evaluation associated with the August show, or at any other time? The NFHR has scheduled an Evaluation in Moses Lake on Aug 22 & 23, 2007. NFHR members will be receiving info about it in the US mail very soon. They entry package will be on the NFHR web site soon also. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Evaluations in Moses Lake?
This message is from: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hey PNW Fjorders, Did I miss something here? Is there going to be an Evaluation associated with the August show, or at any other time? Eileen in wonderfully springlike eastern WA The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: snafflesnshelties <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <<< That tells me that the Fjord owner/breeders are educating themselves about what is a good quality Fjord horse. I have only visited one fjord breeder. I did not see any horse there that was not a stunning animal. I saw beautiful profiles, great bone, and the one I took home... had wonderful eyes!! adorable face! Usually when I have visited other breeds homes... I can always pick out a horse with either a terrible rear... awful front legs... or ugly head I found it so interesting at the fjord stable... they were all so similar ... and so well handled and cared for Joyce
Re: Evaluations and other things
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 05:36 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote: This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Next I have a question about bees and stock tanks, we're having a real problem with the bees and our horses stock tanks. I even put out a water dish for the bees but they keep going to the stock tanks and falling in and drowning and we have to clean out dozens of dead bees everyday. Can anyone offer a suggestion? Sure - See if you can find some Bee sized life rings for them to get on when they get tired so they don't drown. ;-) === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations and stallion selection
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "starfirefarm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Arne Presthus even said, at the Libby 2001 > evaluation, that Norway may need to look to America sometime in the future, > to regain some of the draft qualities that may have been lost in the > Norwegian bloodlines. > Beth Interesting. I heard similar comments from David Klove, when he came to Libby for the Nordicfest show (and an informal evaluation) in 1988. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: Evaluations mandatory in Europe?
This message is from: "Carol Riviore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire in beautifuly, sunny & finally warm Nova Scotia where the daffodils are blooing and the spring peepers are peeping (a sure sign of spring we all wait for). Brian, I don't know about Norway and the other European countries, but having your Fjord horses Evaluated is definitely NOT mandatory in olland. -- I think you could say that the Netherlands also has a fair amount of "freedom of choice". --- In any case, Fjord owners there are free to choose whether or not to Evaluate their Fjords.-- One year, I purchased a filly bred by Bob van Bon and she had no premium beside her name in her pedigree. -- I asked him why, and he said they'd simply been too busy and didn't have the time to take their own horses to the Evaluation. -- I bought the filly anyway. In America there is freedom of choice. It is not mandatory for all owners to have their breeding stock tested or Evaluated. In Europe it is mandatory. One observation I can make is that members who participate in the Evaluation Program on the whole are respectful of the members who choose not to Evaluate. Some members who do not wish to Evaluate seem very unhappy with most anything the NFHR does. It is almost like they are after attention through negative advertising. issue number. Regards, Carol
Re: Evaluations And Fjord scores
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a relatively new owner, I appreciate the discussion on evaluations. I would love to have the process available in more places and would certainly take advantage of it if it were. Maybe later when there are more interested owners to support the expenses involved they will come closer. I have purchased three fjords, and now have a baby of my own and have based my decisions on the pedigree, pictures ( videos) and the evaluations when available. Peg Knutsen with Erlend has them prominantly displayed on her Web site ( or did, I have not looked lately) and the NFHregistry has the information on each horse as far as progeny and ancestors, both of which I have looked at, printed off and tried to evaluate before buying or breeding a Fjord. When I go onto a Web site or breeders page I look for them as well as information on ancestors, siblings and progeny, since that is what I have to go by. So far I have not been disappointed. However, the process would be much easier and the horses probably sell faster if more prospective sellers gathered that information for the purchaser. ( My kitchen table for a time had stacks of printouts and I tried unsuccessfully to put together a BIG picture pedigree with relationshipa, colors, which lines had more highly evaluated or performing horses etc.) It finally gave me a headache. Although there are some absolutely astounding stallions now available, I decided to go with those with proven offspring at this time, realizing that some of these have not had a chance to put that many foals on the ground. Gjest offspring color: Gjests Dam being a red dun explains the red duns that have cropped up in the progeny of each of his sons. I have not found any greys. Obelisk i believe has a white dun offspring. Body type: I have purchased an Erlend offspring and a Gjest offspring and a BDFMalcolm Locke offspring. They are all three different in body type at this stage, a 2 and 3 and 5 year old but have wonderful movement, maybe it is suspension. the Gjest son is long backed, long necked, Erlends daughter is short backed more squarely built. Malcolm Locke's daughter is in the middle. They all appear to be perfectly propelled above the ground when they trot and smooth when they canter. The gentleman who is training the Gjest son, and who has trained for multiple disciplines has said on several occasions that this is one of the most athletic horses he has ever trained, he is more flexible than the other fjords;he is incredibly smooth and well balanced as well as being the most willing to do anything asked. As far as temperament, you could not ask for anything better from any of the three. My gut feeling is that the Gjest son will remain the easiest and most willing as far as training. When breeders put the information on evaluations as well as information on siblings, progeny and ancestors, it makes it easier to pick quality horses and at least stacks the deck in the buyers favor- although nothing is guaranteed. I am pleased with all three, but tickled to death with the newest addition, born here and as yet unamed ( and not for sale). Lacking a crystal ball, all we have as consumers is the potential promise of pedigree and the judgement of knowlegable people ( evaluations) and the evidence of progeny. All three go into the decision making process. So keep it up. Kathy in Southeast Idaho
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "John & Eunice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Peg, in regard to your statement: <> If it did that to you ...imagine how he felt!!:>) Eunice in cold Ontario with knee-deep snow
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "shawna smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Knutsen Fjord Farm One can view videos of the evaluations in Norway. One can read books and the material the NFHR has put out. So where does a person find video's of Norwegian evaluation's?? thanks, Shawna Smith
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:50 PM 6/4/2002 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: "Lisa Schieler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am interested in the evaluations at Galena. Where in Galena are they going to be? It is going to be held at the Shenandoah Riding Center in Galena, IL. I have a 15 yr old mare that is in training and I have never been to one before. I would like to go to one and get some information on what to prepare for in an evaluation and what to look for in a fjord. Great way to learn a lot about them. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 04:17 PM 6/4/2002 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> THANKS very much Mike. Guess I should have tried it out first I'm very glad to have that correct link and appreciate you passing it on. Always "on your toes" there, aren't you? Atta Boy ! Well I try to be anyway. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Lisa Schieler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am interested in the evaluations at Galena. Where in Galena are they going to be? I have a 15 yr old mare that is in training and I have never been to one before. I would like to go to one and get some information on what to prepare for in an evaluation and what to look for in a fjord. Thanks, Lisa Schieler Tremont, IL > The only one west of the Mississippi will be in Carson > City, NV on Oct 18th & 19th. There will also be > Evaluations in Galena, IL on Aug12 & 13th & in > Morrisville, NY on Sept 28 & 29th.
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ...also, > >did you check the Canadian Registry? Which I believe is >??? > > Actually it has been changed to: > > http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/query.cgi?_association=90 > > Mike > THANKS very much Mike. Guess I should have tried it out first I'm very glad to have that correct link and appreciate you passing it on. Always "on your toes" there, aren't you? Atta Boy ! Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 6/4/2002 11:58:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Actually it has been changed to: > > http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/query.cgi?_association=90 Thanks. I thought I had their site bookmarked, but couldn't find it. Just did a search and didn't come up with anything there either. If nobody on the list can figure out who he is, I'll try the Bishops or Nancy. Thanks again. Pamela
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:19 AM 6/4/2002 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> She said his > name was "Lintle Vin". I'm not sure I got the spelling right. He's a 5 year > old. The owner said he came from a large operation in Montana. > Anybody know who this horse is? === Nancy in Bigfork, MT, had quite a few Fjords at one time last I knew her e-mail was [EMAIL PROTECTED] or you might ask Bev and Storrs Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] (who go back a ways in MT Fjord history)also, did you check the Canadian Registry? Which I believe is http://www.clrc.on.ca/horses Actually it has been changed to: http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/query.cgi?_association=90 Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> She said his > name was "Lintle Vin". I'm not sure I got the spelling right. He's a 5 year > old. The owner said he came from a large operation in Montana. > Anybody know who this horse is? === Nancy in Bigfork, MT, had quite a few Fjords at one time last I knew her e-mail was [EMAIL PROTECTED] or you might ask Bev and Storrs Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] (who go back a ways in MT Fjord history)also, did you check the Canadian Registry? Which I believe is http://www.clrc.on.ca/horses Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:35 PM 6/3/2002 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: "Frederick J. Pack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Can you folks tell me exactly when and where any evaluations (West of the Mississippi) will be held? The only one west of the Mississippi will be in Carson City, NV on Oct 18th & 19th. There will also be Evaluations in Galena, IL on Aug12 & 13th & in Morrisville, NY on Sept 28 & 29th. What are the exact dates for Libby and Carson City shows? There isn't an Evaluation at Libby this year & there isn't a show at Carson City. All of the shows for the year are listed on the NFHR web site under "News & Events" I will soon have all of the Evaluations up there too. Here is a link for you: http://www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 6/4/2002 4:23:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > We live only 35 miles from the event and it would be so handy for anyone > attending to select a choice Fjord from our "Bushwhacker" herd. =))) > (shameless commercial) > http://www.libby.org/~bushnell > Ruthie and Gene, NW MT Speaking of Libby, and Montana, my riding instructor (who Skylark went to) just leased out a handsome gelding for her therapy program. She said his name was "Lintle Vin". I'm not sure I got the spelling right. He's a 5 year old. The owner said he came from a large operation in Montana. But doing a pedigree search on the NFHR website, I didn't find his name anywhere. Anybody know who this horse is? I told Jackie I'd find out what I could about his parents. Pamela
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fred, "Nordicfest" in Libby, and the International Fjord Horse Show, will be held September 13th--15th and I hope that you and many others will be able to attend. Here is a site listing accommodations. http://www.libby.org/libbyacc/lodging.html We live only 35 miles from the event and it would be so handy for anyone attending to select a choice Fjord from our "Bushwhacker" herd. =))) (shameless commercial) http://www.libby.org/~bushnell Ruthie and Gene, NW MT > This message is from: "Frederick J. Pack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Can you folks tell me exactly when and where any evaluations (West of > the Mississippi) will be held? > What are the exact dates for Libby and Carson City shows? > > Thanks, > > Fred > > All Mail is scanned in AND out by Norton Anti-virus. > > Fred and Lois Pack > Pack's Peak Stables > Wilkeson, Washington 98396 > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3158
Re: Evaluations: Carson City
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yes Fred,(and anyone else who is wondring...) the Evaluation is scheduled for October 19 & 20th, near Carson City, in the gorgeous Carson Valley. Conformation, as well as the performance testing will be offered. The site we will be using is a private facility, just 3 miles south of where the Eval was originally scheduled, at the Fairgrounds, but due to construction, they cancelled our reservations there. The Carson Valley Equestrian Center is currently empty, and should remain so for the next few months as it is for sale (anyone have 1.5 mil??)But the owners are very nice in letting us use it, at a avery good rate.There are multiple arenas there, even an indoor, however, due to not many folks haviing access to indoor arenas to prepare their horses in, and also that there are so many arenas available, we will be using it as a warmup area. The weather this time of the year is sunny and cool; we usually don't get our first storm until well after Halloween. Food and lodging, etc. is ample and w/in 4 miles. BONUS: if your bored non-horsey relatives start making comments like "how and the heck can ya tell these horses apart, they all look the same.." you can pack 'em off to a casino or Lake Tahoe, or even a few hours in a glider (the carson Valley is glider heaven) might do the trick! I am going to be mailing out the info & commitment letters on June 12th to all who expressed an interest earlier this year. If anyone wants to be added into the list, please contact me privately and I will make sure the info gets out to you. I cannot tell you exactly who is judging yet, but I do know that Anne & Mike and the rest of the Eval Comm are working these out. One question I had: has anyone "officially" taped any of the Evals to date? I think it not only would be a fantastic record for a serious breeder, but it would be a great way to educate a potential participant. Photos are great, but hey, ya can't see the movement! If anyone is interested in videotaping, perhaps we could sell the tapes to cover some of the time & expense involved. Would anyone be interested in this? And lastly...if you are not planning to bring horses, but want to come & watch & absorb, please also consider volunteering. It can be as involved as taking a turn at the gate, or running up into town for the judges lunches... Hope this info helps! Karen PS: just a personal note. pls excuse any typos above...I am getting kinda frantic & excited prepping for my first CDE in a long while, (4 years!!) I am taking a really nice homebred mare, Alycia, Sven x Thyri (Gromar), that is soon going to another home in California(sigh!)At least we get to do one real event together. When her new owners found out I was entered in the Hayfork CDE, that clinched the deal. They didn't want anyone to snap her up this weekend! I will get a breeding out of her: she has a "date" with Peppertree's Christian, Ronaldo x BDF Jennifer Ann (Gjest) 2 weeks after the CDE. Busy girl! Original Message Follows From: "Frederick J. Pack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Can you folks tell me exactly when and where any evaluations (West of the Mississippi) will be held? What are the exact dates for Libby and Carson City shows? Thanks, Fred _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> listers, i am not into showing. i just LOVE riding and playing with my horses. what do we have to do "special" for this evaluation in turlock what does the horse have to do? do we have to dress in >fancy "show clothes"? what does the whole process entail? denise, >with a need to know, because i am so compusive. Denise. HI Denise... we'll I don't know what it is to be compusive (opp. of compulsive?), but I can steer you in the right direction as regards the Eval. coming up for Turlock. First, heed Mike's excellent advice and educate yourself on the NFHR Website, and second, please come and join us at the Pre-Eval & Horsemanship Clinic with Beth Beymer, scheduled for July 7-8 in Carson City, at my ranch. (Email me privately for more info!) Anyway, hope this helps & hope to see you and your boy on this side of the hill! Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, NV _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:11 PM 5/16/2001 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> listers, i am not into showing. i just LOVE riding and playing with my horses. what do we have to do "special" for this evaluation in turlock? what does the horse have to do? do we have to dress in fancy "show clothes"? what does the whole process entail? denise, with a need to know, because i am so compusive. Denise. You do need to know all of the answers to those questions to be in the Evaluation. You can find all of them & more in the Evaluation Handbook. It is available on the NFHR web site for free. If you want a printed copy of it we sell them for $25. Here is a link to the free one on the web site. It also included the Breed Standard. It is a LONG download please be patient it may look like nothing is happening in your browser for 10 - 15 minutes depending on your connection speed. You do need to have the Adobe Acrobat Reader software to be able to view & print it. It is over 70 pages long so make sure you have enough paper & ink in the printer before you start also. Here is the link to the free Adobe Acrobat Software if you don't have it: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html Here is the link to the Evaluation Handbook: http://www.nfhr.com/PDF/EvalHandbk2-28-01.PDF Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> listers, i am not into showing. i just LOVE riding and playing with my horses. what do we have to do "special" for this evaluation in turlock? what does the horse have to do? do we have to dress in fancy "show clothes"? what does the whole process entail? denise, with a need to know, because i am so compusive.
Re: Evaluations & Geldings! Important!!
This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> thank you sue g. for explaining why i should get my gelding evaluated. it is much clearer now. denise delgado
Re: Evaluations & Geldings! Important!!
This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >This message is from: "SUSAN L GIARGIARI" < >Education is what we are trying to get out to the membership, about the >Evaluation System. It is VERY important to get geldings evaluated, just as >important as the stallions and the mares. The geldings are half of what any >mare or stallion produce. A countries breeding program is only >as good as what it is producing! * Due to the fact that evaluations of geldings are basically to the benefit of the mare and stallion owner(s) of that gelding, to say nothing of the expense of the evaluations, it might behoove the breeders to offer incentives to the buyer of the gelding. Other breeds do that sort of thing, as it is beneficial to the breeder if he can advertise his stallion's get as blue ribbon winners, for instance. Just a thought. Judy
Re: Evaluations & Geldings! Important!!
This message is from: "SUSAN L GIARGIARI" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Listers! Education is what we are trying to get out to the membership, about the Evaluation System. It is VERY important to get geldings evaluated, just as important as the stallions and the mares. The geldings are half of what any mare or stallion produce. The Evaluation System in Europe is based on, in the end, what each Stallion produces. A Stallion can loose his license to breed if his offspring don't get the points, awards, and such in the Conformation, and also the Performance. A countries breeding program is only as good as what it is producing! It is very important for all the breeders to educate and encourage the folks they sell geldings to about the evaluation system. If a stallion or a mare consistently produces fillies or colts/geldings that are not awarded prizes, such as A, B, C for the Dutch. In the American System, if it score below a 50 for Conformation, there is no ribbon awarded. There would be a few serious faults that would have to be present for a horse to get no ribbon. If this were to happen, then it is recommended that the animal not be bred. But, this being America, no one can make anyone follow that recommendation. As more and more Fjord Breeders and Buyers educate themselves and learn about the Evaluation and how it will keep the Fjords in America "top quality", the ones who choose to ignore it, will eventually, even it it's years down the road, not be able to sell a horse for that "top" dollar that some of us get. It takes a lot of commitment, and money, but not all at once on the money part! If the offspring don't do well in any breed of animal, the breeder should reconsider whether to keep breeding that animal. The Evaluations are not a Horse Show. It is the horse being judged against the Standard. It is hard work, but also a fun time! The Evaluators are people who have judged lots of the Fjord Shows, so lots of you already know some of them. The Clinics for education and showing folks how to get their horses evaluated have been awesome! A good learning experience for all! You get to meet other fjord folks and make lasting friendships! The bottom line here is "yes"!! Geldings do need to be evaluated!! We want to see them at the evaluations! There is something being talked about and set up as a special award for geldings that get evaluated, to help encourage gelding owners. They are one of a breeders most special customer! I haven't had a fjord "customer" yet, who hasn't turned into a wonderful friend! Sue! Glad to hear your little guy is doing good! Please update when you can! and above all, get some sleep!! Sue g.
Re: Evaluations & Record Book
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I to got the form printed so my check is on the way. Thanks Tillie Dun Lookin' Fjords Bud,Tillie & Amy Evers Redmond OR (541) 548-6018 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/8589
Re: Evaluations & Record Book
This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yep. I knew that. Someone else, (forget who), had mentioned it with the deadline date. That's how I happened to know about it. My check will, hopefully, be in the mail tomorrow. Did get the form printed,... thanks. Judy -Original Message- From: Mike May, Registrar NFHR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001 1:42 PM Subject: Re: Evaluations & Record Book >This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >At 06:37 PM 2/3/01 -0600, you wrote: >>This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >Ursula and Mike, >> >My check is in mail for my Record Book! I thought I would just remind >>everybody >> >that the deadline for the pre printing discout of $25.00 is February 15th. >>After >> >the 15th will it will cost $40 + 5.50 S&H. The order form is on the NFHR >>web >> >site. > >I didn't notice this before when I replied about where the form is but the >price of the book in the above is not correct for after printing. > >The price is $25 until the 15 Feb. >The price after the 15th of Feb. is $35 + $5 shipping & handling Total $40. > >Mike > > >=== > >Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry >Mike May, Registrar >Voice 716-872-4114 >FAX 716-787-0497 > >http://www.nfhr.com >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
Re: Evaluations & Record Book
This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks, Mike. Judy -Original Message- From: Mike May, Registrar NFHR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001 6:20 AM Subject: Re: Evaluations & Record Book >This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >At 06:37 PM 2/3/01 -0600, you wrote: >>This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>Ursula and Mike, >>Do we need the order form, or can we just send our check and request it. I >>couldn't seem to find the form, although I did see the advertisement for the >>book on the web. Judy > >The form is right below the ad. Here is a direct link to it. > >http://www.nfhr.com/PDF/EvalRecordBookOrder.PDF > >If you can't print it then yes just send the check with a note letting me >know what it is for. > >Mike > > >=== > >Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry >Mike May, Registrar >Voice 716-872-4114 >FAX 716-787-0497 > >http://www.nfhr.com >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
Re: Evaluations & Record Book
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 06:37 PM 2/3/01 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Ursula and Mike, >My check is in mail for my Record Book! I thought I would just remind everybody >that the deadline for the pre printing discout of $25.00 is February 15th. After >the 15th will it will cost $40 + 5.50 S&H. The order form is on the NFHR web >site. I didn't notice this before when I replied about where the form is but the price of the book in the above is not correct for after printing. The price is $25 until the 15 Feb. The price after the 15th of Feb. is $35 + $5 shipping & handling Total $40. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations & Record Book
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 06:37 PM 2/3/01 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ursula and Mike, Do we need the order form, or can we just send our check and request it. I couldn't seem to find the form, although I did see the advertisement for the book on the web. Judy The form is right below the ad. Here is a direct link to it. http://www.nfhr.com/PDF/EvalRecordBookOrder.PDF If you can't print it then yes just send the check with a note letting me know what it is for. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations & Record Book
This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ursula and Mike, Do we need the order form, or can we just send our check and request it. I couldn't seem to find the form, although I did see the advertisement for the book on the web. Judy *** >Ursula and Mike, >My check is in mail for my Record Book! I thought I would just remind everybody >that the deadline for the pre printing discout of $25.00 is February 15th. After >the 15th will it will cost $40 + 5.50 S&H. The order form is on the NFHR web >site. > >>
Re: Evaluations & Record Book
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:08 AM 2/2/01 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: Cynthia_Madden/OAA/UNO/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Ursula and Mike, My check is in mail for my Record Book! I thought I would just remind everybody that the deadline for the pre printing discout of $25.00 is February 15th. After the 15th will it will cost $40 + 5.50 S&H. The order form is on the NFHR web site. Thanks Cynthia. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations & Such
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone, Thought I would throw in my thoughts on the inclusion of foreign evaluation results in the NFHR Evaluation Book as this is a great topic and also, something all of us as breeders and owners need to consider for the maintaining of the quality of our beloved Fjords. Personally, I am against inclusion into the NFHR Evaluation book any foreign evaluated Fjords. I would think one of the goals of the Fjord Horse International would be the combining of all countries and evaluation results into a cohesive whole. This is a worthy goal and definitely a goal which needs all of our support. However, this combining of different evaluation results from different countries/judges should not be the responsibility of the NFHR. The NFHR is NOT an international Registry. I wonder, if someone imported an NFHR approved evaluated AMERICAN stallion or mare to Norway, Holland, Germany, etc., would these results be automatically listed in that country's evaluation record books or would this animal be required to complete that particular country's testing to be proven a quality Fjord? I suppose the biggest question I have is why do some of you who import oppose bringing your imported Fjords to an American Evaluation? What is the purpose of avoiding these evaluations? To create the idea of unity which has been mentioned, the logical course of action would be to have your imported Fjord evaluated in the American system. This way, your Fjord now has additional credentials which can only add value to your breeding program. I am afraid I do not see the problem, here. On the other hand, I do believe it wise to include NFHR approved American held Kuering results in the Evaluation Book. These Kuerings are important to many who cannot make, for whatever reasons, the long trips to NFHR evaluations. They also could certainly be used as a tool to breeders to compare American and foreign judging standards. It is a great resource. As long as they are approved by the NFHR, these results should be included. Regards, Lynda Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI 231.689.9902 http://hometown.aol.com/heithingi/BaileysNorwegianFjords.html
Re: Evaluations & Such
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello from Carol Rivoire of Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Referring to Ursula's post . . . Ursula, in a way I understand your positiion. It has a certain logic. American Record Book for American Evaluated horses only . . . BUT,does it serve the best interests of American Fjords and their owners? I'm not so sure, and am not a "dissenter" for questioning. There've been many NFHR sanctioned European Evaluations, and for the most part, the horses were American born and bred --- Not imports. In your post you said the American Evaluation Program is in a "growth process to adulthood." --- No argument there. Hopefully, it will grow and flourish, and eventually be as useful as the European programs. However, the facts are that IT IS IN ITS INFANCY. --- The facts are that America is huge, and unlike Holland or Norway, yearly evaluations can't take place everywhere to serve the most owners and horses. The facts are that the purpose of Evaluation is EDUCATION . . . And the facts are that nobody disputes the ability of the Dutch team to properly evaluate Fjords. It makes sense to use these people until we have a nation-wide, regularly held, accessible program of our own, and to record these results for the benefit of everybody. Doing so will not harm the American effort. In fact, it should help the American effort. --- The more Evaluations held the better, because the very fact of their being held often and all over the country will serve to make them less controversial, less scary, more familiar, acceptable and desirable. --- The facts also are that the PROPOSAL TO INCLUDE European evaluated Fjords in the Record Book was made, in part, to foster unity as opposed to an - "Us versus Them" - mentality. Ursula says . . ."this discussion is more about power, control, and unfortunately money." ~~ Huh?. . . I don't think so, Ursula. The people seeking to have their horses included aren't the ones with the "power and control". ~ Ursula's concerned about our "national identity". In my opinion, the Main Event is GETTING FJORDS EVALUATED and their owners EDUCATED. Much more important than our "national Fjord identity". ~ And Ursula goes on to say . . . >Some American owners have strong ties to various European countries and >their stock. This is OK for them but it is not right to dictate these ties >to other Americans who are moving ahead in their own areas of choice. ~ - Most of the horses I saw evaluated in Vermont were American born and bred Fjords owned by NFHR members. * The bottom line is that results on all "credible" Evaluations should be recorded in some sort of book available to the public. If not the Record Book, then another book, and maybe that's the best idea, although it doesn't seem the most practical. ~ And Ursula goes on to say . . . > The Record Book is nearing completion . . I am sure after its publication the usual >complainers will be on their stools throwing whatever is throwable. It is >always much more easier to complain than actually join and become a >volunteer for NFHR.> ~ Not fair, Ursula. If I'm one of your so-called "complainers", you know very well that I've volunteered repeatedly for the Evaluation and Education Committees, but to no avail. Have done so again this year. As always, I'm available to do what I can for Fjords in North America. Best Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: Evaluations and Such
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brian are you really back? Hope so, good to hear from you again. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
Re: evaluations - a voice from Europe
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Eike Schoen-Petersen) As secretary of the German Fjord association (IGF), as a judge/evaluator and a person involved with the evaluators training program in Germany and part of the FHI-committee (FHI=FjordHorseInternational) that works on the "synchronisation" of the different training programs for evaluators in the different countries I believe it is important to establish the common basis - where this can be found. There has been a very intensive and productive meeting of the mentioned FHI-committee, 5 people from 5 countries including Wayne Hipsley from the US. Other countries like Holland were asked to send a participant - no reaction so far. - Why we don't ask Bob van Bon to do a Dutch Keuring in Germany? Because it would be a German "Koerung" according to the German rules. We have traditionally for many many years asked foreign judges to take part in our evaluations/breed shows. At our national anniversary show last year we had Susan Hellum from Norway and Christian Andersen from Denmark judge together with a German judge and that was NORMAL. At the Dutch anniversary show this year we were invited to send a German judge. At the Belgian national show this year there were several judges from Norway, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Holland, and Belgium. It wasn't a Dutch or Norwegian or Swiss Keuring though. I believe each country needs to follow its own way of setting up its own system, within the EU each country has had a system in place for many years. The thought of doing a German "Koerung" in the US would only make sense if there was no Fjord Registry in the US, this Fjord Registry wouldn't know what it's doing or if Germany would be the mother country and be playing "mother superior". None of this is the case. If we were invited to be part of the system in the US, we would gladly send our best people to assist in an American Evaluation. And certainly we would appreciate an American evaluator taking part in our system. Eike Schoen-Petersen Haffwiesenhof 17375 Leopoldshagen Germany
Re: Evaluations/Keurings
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:05 AM 10/14/00 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lori A. likes the Keuring for young stock and she has a good point there but I'm sure she also realizes that due to many factors (cost and geography for one) this is still not as viable in N.A. as breeding stock ...so we continue to push for the baiscs.let the N.A. program grow and develop and maybe in time we will push harder for young stock. I think this maybe getting closer. A suggestion has been made that we show the color of the ribbon that was attained by the conformation section of the evaluation for horses that do not go through the performance tests. It was further suggested that the B,R,Y & W be used for horses over 3 *& b,r,y & w be used for under 3. The letters are for Blue, Red, Yellow & White. This is still under discussion. We still have the 'Best' performance portion of any Evaluation (even von Bon agrees with that) because it suits our N.A. users and it is inclusive & progressive. The uniqueness of our continent requires a unique way of handling Evaluationsthis does not take away from any other system of evalution..The fact that we are talking about educating fjord owners/breeders/users can only benifit the breed. That is a primary focus and should be the bottom line. Agreed === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Can we get some Norwegian Evaluators here? After all, Norway is the MOTHER COUNTRY, the HOMELAND. I'm not biased at all, being 1/2 Norwegian and 1/2 Swede! ;-) Suzan
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:25 AM 10/13/00 -0700, you wrote: Hey you know what? Seems to me that when I look at stats the same horses who do well in the Dutch evalutations are doing well in the American evaluations. Go figure!
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe the strong feelings are not against the Dutch Keuring, but against someone who is so against the American Evaluations.
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wow! What a lot of controversy about the recent Keurings! I attended the one in Virginia with 3 of my horses. I went not knowing what to expect, but determined to make the best of an unknown situation. IT WAS WONDERFUL! Although I didn't get to watch many of the other horses that were evaluated that day, Mr. Van Bon was excellent in explaining my three. The Keuring was very informative, quite low-stress, and a comfortable situation altogether. Would I go again? In a minute! And figure out a way to get the other 5 horses there, as well. What an amazing amount of knowledge was there for us all to share in!! I learned a great deal, and only wish that I had had more opportunity to spend the rest of the day, and to watch the other evaluations. Do I support the Dutch Keurings? You bet! This was an amazing opportunity for me to learn from a most knowledgeable man. Why wouldn't anyone take advantage of this Keuring? Do I support the NFHR evaluations? Of course! Since it is very difficult to arrange for the European judges to get here and travel from place to place, it only makes sense to have trained evaluators in this country too. We certainly have some very experienced horsemen among our numbers, who are able to recognize a good fjord when they see one. I was very surprised that none of our NFHR learner judges were following Mr. Van Bon around the country, to pick his brain and watch his every move. This man knows so very much, and has seen many thousands of times more fjords than any of us in this country have ever encountered. What a rare opportunity to learn from the best. I truly don't understand why we have to pick one evaluation system over another. The two systems could - and should - coexist peacefully and in harmony. A 1-premie horse in one system should be a blue ribbon horse in the other. We're not breeding American Fjord horses, they're Norwegian fjords - so where's the problem with the European judges? This is a little scary to me, the fact that there's so much resistance to anything other than our own, recently established American system. Let's do develop an evaluation system! Great! But let's learn as much as we can from the folks who have been doing this very thing for many years longer than we have. Why not take advantage of every learning experience that offers? Maybe we'll agree with the European judges - maybe we'll disagree. But in any case, we will most definitely learn, if only we will be open to it. I don't see the need to pick sides in this evaluation controversy. If the American evaluators ever hold an evaluation anywhere near enough for me to get to comfortably, I will most certainly be there, and will be looking forward to learning from our best horsemen. If the Dutch - or Norwegian - judges ever come back to this area, I will be there too. I can't see that the one interferes with the other system, or causes any conflict at all. By the way, my fjords did well at the evaluation - my 5yo mare got her 1 premie, the better 2yo got her A premie, and the other 2yo got a B premie. But even if they had done badly, I would have considered it a successful day - and would be looking forward to the next evaluation, in order to learn more and to hear others' points of view. Well, off the soap-box for now. Sorry to be this long-winded, but I confess I am puzzled by the strong feelings that this has stirred up. Respond gently, please! Jan, in central Virginia
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:39 PM 2/16/00 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: Nancy Hotovy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> My last opinion is that the scores from a Norwegian Evaluation or Dutch Keuring be put on the the registration papers only if put on in the home country. What would stop anyone from Norway or Holland coming over and doing an evaluation whether they were qualified or not and giving awards? I'm not criticizing the true judges and evaluators but in Norway and Holland isn't there a group (more than one) doing the evaluating and do they have to meet certain qualifications? This is how I would like to see it also Nancy. I think it is worth more this way too.
Re: Evaluations 2000 Turlock
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>The NFHR Board of Directors had a very productive phone conference on >>Wednesday. Several key decisions regarding the evaluation program were >>made which will be published in the minutes on the NFHR web site shortly. >>Everyone can rest assured that there WILL be evaluations in 2000, and the >>program will continue to move ahead in a positive manner. > >How did you read > >"that the evaluation is still "up in the air" for 2000 (though there will >be one, somewhere)." > > From the quote of Julie's? Yep - sounded like there was some doubt out there. When I was at Turlock the meeting on Saturday night (which I was unable to attend) was going to confirm the evaluations - so I understood. Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Clicker List Web Site : http://clickryder.cjb.net
Re: Evaluations 2000 Turlock
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 06:52 PM 9/20/99 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Julia Will's report about the board meeting indicates that the evaluation is still "up in the air" for 2000 (though there will be one, somewhere). Does anyone know whether the Turlock evaluation is On, Off or Maybe at this point? Here is Julie's comment on the Evaluation: The NFHR Board of Directors had a very productive phone conference on Wednesday. Several key decisions regarding the evaluation program were made which will be published in the minutes on the NFHR web site shortly. Everyone can rest assured that there WILL be evaluations in 2000, and the program will continue to move ahead in a positive manner. How did you read "that the evaluation is still "up in the air" for 2000 (though there will be one, somewhere)." From the quote of Julie's? Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations 2000 Turlock
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I pulled the following from the NFHR Web Page: September 22,23,& 24 - 7th Annual Nordic Horse Show at Skandifest in Turlock, California - SPONSORED BY FJORDINGS WEST 2000 NORWEGIAN FJORD HORSE EVALUATION as approved by NFHR. There may be regular show classes at this show but it will mainly be the evaluation. Contact Catherine Lassesen at 541/825-3027 or e-mail Catherine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Julia Will's report about the board meeting indicates that the evaluation is still "up in the air" for 2000 (though there will be one, somewhere). Does anyone know whether the Turlock evaluation is On, Off or Maybe at this point? Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Clicker List Web Site : http://clickryder.cjb.net
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:57 PM 8/31/99 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: Nancy Hotovy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> THANK YOU BRIAN!!! Your statement about the Committee and the BOD is totally correct. The committee has presented a total plan to the BOD and we have not had a reply as of yet. Houston, I think we have a problem. As far as I know the BOD is waiting for the committee to send back a revised plan. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:23 PM 8/26/99 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So we are anxious to hear feedback from the board but so far have only heard what Mike May (not a board member) has told the list ie: that the BOD was busy in their last meeting working on a plan.. We too are anxious to move ahead... I will forward your message to the BOD's mailing list Anne so that they all see it. Mike
Re: Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello to all on the list. I have been trying to find the time to respond to all the wonderful discussion lately regarding evaluations but there are never enough hours in the day. As one of the elusive Evaluation Committee members I wanted to say that it is WONDERFUL to hear such animated input from so many fjord owners concerning all aspects of the evaluation process. I am probably one of the more junior members of the committee and yet in the two years I have served much critical progress has been made on putting all the pieces together to make a solid and workable program that as some have pointed out is always a work in progress. Editing and fine tuning the Evaluation hand book and setting up an Evaluator Training program have been central issues in my time with the committee. As a committe our job is to research, discuss and map out proposals which are then presented to the BOD for approval/feedback. Currently we have submitted a preliminary proposal for evaluator training. There are many exciting and doable options to consider, some of which have been discussed on the list. The trip to Norway in the spring and talking to evaluators from all over the world also generated some very exciting ideas. So we are anxious to hear feedback from the board but so far have only heard what Mike May (not a board member) has told the list ie: that the BOD was busy in their last meeting working on a plan.. We too are anxious to move ahead... Keep up the great discussion. Anne Appleby
Re: Evaluations & Cost of "Booklet"
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:54 PM 8/23/99 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I had no idea one had to formally request an eval to "show" their seriousness about gaining "expert" opinion in maintaining breed standard. One would think the BOD would not need a month to decide on an evaluation. 1-2 days should be more than sufficient to decide on an NFHR approved and designed event. The BOD has a rule that items to be brought to the table on the Conference calls are to be submitted to the Secretary at least 10 days prior to the meeting so that they can be put on the Agenda. Then the preliminary Agenda is sent out. When approved the final Agenda is sent to all BOD members via email a couple of days before the meeting. The whole idea behind a voted in representative is to not only speak for the general population at large concerning present issues, but to also work toward resolving issues that are obvious future problems. Sounds almost like the hiring of evaluators has been neglected because no one has asked for an evaluation?? Surely, you cannot be serious?? What kind of organization is that?? A Volunteer one. All of these people have other lives. Well, by all means, would you please submit this request on my behalf to the BOD, Mike? I had assumed this idea would have already been addressed and stipulations already implemented. You can send a request for your proposal to the Secretary and ask that it be put on the Agenda for the next meeting. His email address is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations & Cost of "Booklet"
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Mike, all, In a message dated 8/23/99 12:11:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << And why couldn't that be done with American Evaluators? They still have to travel from place to place here in the US too. Someone would have to pay the expenses for the days in between too. >> Well, I suppose we could IF we had any. :) <> I had no idea one had to formally request an eval to "show" their seriousness about gaining "expert" opinion in maintaining breed standard. One would think the BOD would not need a month to decide on an evaluation. 1-2 days should be more than sufficient to decide on an NFHR approved and designed event. <> Mike, I truly do not have the desire to offend you, but this sounds like a "copout" to me. Not only that, it sounds like a "pass the buck" situation. Now we are to blame the Evaluation Committee? Sorry, I do not buy that. The whole idea behind a voted in representative is to not only speak for the general population at large concerning present issues, but to also work toward resolving issues that are obvious future problems. Sounds almost like the hiring of evaluators has been neglected because no one has asked for an evaluation?? Surely, you cannot be serious?? What kind of organization is that?? Well, by all means, would you please submit this request on my behalf to the BOD, Mike? I had assumed this idea would have already been addressed and stipulations already implemented. Sincerely, Lynda Daniel Bailey and Lynda C. Welch-Bailey Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI
Re: Evaluations & Cost of "Booklet"
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:42 AM 8/23/99 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Actually, no, I am not personally worried about the cost. As I said previously, this issue has been brought to my attention as a concern on the behalf of many Fjord owners. Sorry if I misinterpreted your messages, it seemed like they all suggested that the NFHR should help pay for the evaluation. I guess since they were coming from you I thought it was your concern. Sorry for the assumption there. My thoughts on this sort of an evaluation would be that if someone did come over from Europe, most likely they would do more than one eval, hence costs would be split by all groups participating. And why couldn't that be done with American Evaluators? They still have to travel from place to place here in the US too. Someone would have to pay the expenses for the days in between too. I thought I had been patient. I know when I first contacted the Registry, As far as I know your first and only request for an Evaluation was a day or 2 before the last BOD meeting. At least that was the first formal request that I knew of. They have not met again since and will not until the 15th of Sept. started discussions with Fjord breeders, and eventually joined this list, evaluators were already an issue. My first contact with a breeder was in December, 1998. That is not one month, it is nine months. Since no one had asked to even have an Evaluation I don't think it was a real big issue for the BOD actually. It was left up to the Evaluation Committee until now to be coming up with a way to provide more Evaluators. I was given the impression resolution was being pursued, but I have not seen any progress, nor do I know how long prior to my involvement the lack of evaluators has been a problem. Like I just said without someone requesting an Evaluation (seriously) then it really hasn't been a problem at all has it? Once you requested one then the BOD decided to take some action. Please let them at least have the time it takes to do something about it. I would think, however, with only two initial evaluators it would/should have been considered by the BOD a major issue in the first place. Like I said it was up to the Evaluation Committee to set up the training program for them. Mike, let me ask you this. How many unevaluated Fjords are bred every month? Sorry my Crystal Ball broke a few days ago. I can't tell you how many Fjords are bred every month let alone evaluated or unevaluated ones. Again, would these evaluations be accepted by the NFHR? You would have to ask the BOD not me. I don't make the rules. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations & Cost of "Booklet"
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Mike, Actually, no, I am not personally worried about the cost. As I said previously, this issue has been brought to my attention as a concern on the behalf of many Fjord owners. My thoughts on this sort of an evaluation would be that if someone did come over from Europe, most likely they would do more than one eval, hence costs would be split by all groups participating. I thought I had been patient. I know when I first contacted the Registry, started discussions with Fjord breeders, and eventually joined this list, evaluators were already an issue. My first contact with a breeder was in December, 1998. That is not one month, it is nine months. I was given the impression resolution was being pursued, but I have not seen any progress, nor do I know how long prior to my involvement the lack of evaluators has been a problem. I would think, however, with only two initial evaluators it would/should have been considered by the BOD a major issue in the first place. Mike, let me ask you this. How many unevaluated Fjords are bred every month? Granted, not everyone will use this tool, nor should they be forced to. But without evaluations and a push to insure the breed standard is kept intact, how long will it be before the Fjords of today become the Welshes/Morgans/Arabs/QHs of today? Again, would these evaluations be accepted by the NFHR? Sincerely, Daniel Bailey and Lynda C. Welch-Bailey Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI
Re: Evaluations & Cost of "Booklet"
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:37 AM 8/22/99 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The idea of using an approved European evaluator(s) is more than acceptable to me. Would this be accepted by the NFHR or would we be forced to use this form of an evaluation as a private tool? I thought you were worried about the expense of the Evaluation? I think Carol is a bit on the low side on the $600 figure for the plane ticket. I am not a travel agent but I know when people were planning the trip to Norway in the spring the prices were a lot higher than that. That could have changed too. But it won't be cheaper for sure. You know one of the biggest problems I find with this list is that everyone wants an immediate solution to every question/problem. The problem of lack of Evaluators is being handled right now. The BOD only meets once a month though. Can't anyone wait a month for an answer these days? Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations & Cost of "Booklet"
This message is from: "Cheryl Beillard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hear! Hear! Carol, you said it perfectly .. as a new fjord owner, I've been wondering - from a distance - how this process of evaluation and developing qualified evaluators could be expedited .. As I understand it, the Norwegians offer some training as they do their yearly evaluations. Not everyone who wants to learn can afford the time/expense to make the trip to Norway, and if European (not necessarily Norwegian) evaluators were used until such time as we have sufficient expertise over here, this would offer those of us over here the opportunity to learn as well. If the question is one of maintaining the breed standard, then this looks like a pretty painless way of transferring that knowledge and ensuring regular evaluation now, so that NA fjords don't depart in any significant way from the original model we all love. I don't see why having one of three evaluators (when we get up to being able to provide that number for any evaluations) from Europe would not be a good mix on a regular basis ... I also agree with the comments on the book.. it would have more value if it were viewed as a practical tool which would be updated each year, than something glossy and too expensive to do annually. I imagine most of us would devour it from cover to cover, refer to it often, and need a new copy every year anyhow!
Re: Evaluations & Cost of "Booklet"
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone, Carol, The idea of using an approved European evaluator(s) is more than acceptable to me. Would this be accepted by the NFHR or would we be forced to use this form of an evaluation as a private tool? I must say I was also very curious about the $18,000 figure. Goodness, with technology as it is today, a person using a good computer system and printer could easily run copies off, colored pictures and all, cheaper than that! Lynda Daniel Bailey and Lynda C. Welch-Bailey Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI
Re: Evaluations & Cost of "Booklet"
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Good Day from carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - It's clear many owners and breeders want Evaluations, and want them available all across the country on a yearly basis. Everyone agrees. However, we've got a problem. We've only got one American Evaluator.So what do we do? A simple and immediate solution would be for the NFHR to declare that qualified Europeans are automatically certified as NFHR Evaluators.The Dutch Studbook has certified several Fjord judges, and all have gone through the dificult Judging Program, and taken the qualifying exams required. Norway could also offer certified Fjord judges. - Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium. They all have Evaluation Programs, and no doubt could send us Evaluators. The point is, these people are all NORWEGIAN FJORD HORSE JUDGES. They're not specialized "Danish Fjord judges", or "German Fjord judges". They're judges of NORWEGIAN FJORDHORSES. By using European Fjord judges, along with American trained judges, we could get this Evaluation Program off the ground and running much sooner, and make it available to more owners across the country. Not only that, but by using already available, and already trained European judges, along with our own judges, we'll be staying closer to the source of the Fjordhorse, and perhaps eliminating any tendencies to stray from the Standard. Not only that, but by using European judges, we'd be able to expedite our own judges training program with Learner Judges in attendance. As it stands, the NFHR has only one Evaluator. By adopting this suggestion, we could very well have twenty or more Evaluators available NOW. For instance, if Brian Jacobsen could get together 30 horses in his region for an Evaluation, he might choose to fly in a certified judge from Norway. The plane ticket would cost $600. Owners could put the man up and feed him, thereby saving expenses. Say, at the outside, the Evaluation cost $3,000. That's $100 per horse. Not much if you're serious about breeding. It's apparent owners and breeders want an Evaluation Program; therefore, find a way to make it happen NOW. If we don't expedite this, we're inviting problems in the breed. Fjords are becoming tremendously popular. For better or worse, breeding is happening big time now. Evaluation should be available today, and using already trained, highly experienced judges from Norway, Holland, Sweden, Germany, etc. is the way to make it happen. --- Afterall, this is a European breed. I can't see why anyone would object to using European Evaluators. This is standard practice in most other European breeds that have been imported to North America, and become popular here. --- As to the "Booklet" being discussed. Arthur and I are very much for it, and would eagerly buy it. We'd introduce it to all our Driving Vacation guests and our customers, and I bet that most of them would buy it as well. However, for the life of me, I can't see how it could possibly cost $18,000. As I understand it, it's not a one-time thing. Wouldn't it need to be updated yearly? As such, it seems to me that it should be paperback, and not in color. The Studbook that Norway publishes yearly is paperback, small format, with black & white photos. It's not fancy, actually rather pulpy, but it does the job intended; namely, photos of evaluated stallion, pedigrees, evaluation results plus particulars on the stallion; such as height, color, canonbone measurement. I've seen the ones Sweden produces, and they're even more economical, but equally useful. I'm against spending anything remotely close to $18,000 for what amounts to an informational "booklet", that needs to be up-dated yearly. As much as I like to see the NFHR spend money on worthwhile projects, spending this amount is excessive. -- This book needs to happen, but it should be produced economically with no frills. It's a working handbook, not a coffee table book. Having recently published a book on the Fjordhorse, I know what I'm talking about. We printed a 6 x 9" soft cover book with color front and back covers. The book has 300 pages with 170 black and white photos. It cost nowhere near $18,000 . . . . not even 18,000 Canadian dollars. If the organizers would like, I'd be happy to get a quote from our printer. Best Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:39 AM 8/17/99 -0300, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Reading the List lately, I'm delighted so many breeders want Evaluations to happen on a regular basis around the country. This is a milestone in the maturation of North America Fjord breeders. Yes I find the whole discussion very encouraging too. Today, Holland, Norway, Germany, Belgium, and I believe, Sweden & Denmark all hold Evaluations of youngstock. I can't speak for any other country except Holland, but there the youngsters who are Evaluated are also micro-chipped at the same time, and hair is taken for DNA testing as well. Well you left out the US but I guess with all of the discussion it is obvious. The difference we have is that the horses are required to be DNA typed & microchipped before the evaluation. Part of this is because now DNA typing is required for registration. The horses have to be NFHR registered to be evaluated in the NFHR program. And again, it's important to remember that Conformation Evaluations are NOT HALTER CLASSES. It's not the prettiest Fjord that wins. It's not even a question of winning. It's a question of coming closest to the Approved Breed Standard. That means, it would be possible for every Fjord shown at an Evaluation to be a Blue Ribbon Fjord if every horse shown met the Breed Standard. --- I'll probably get called on that, but that's the way I understand Evaluations. You are correct. It is possible for all of the horses to receive Blue Ribbons. It is also possible that none of them get a Blue ribbon. They could all get red or yellow for that matter. To go back to the Dutch system - They evaluate their youngsters as "A Premie", "B Premie" or "C Premie". There's no "D" level, so it's understood that horses not good enough for the "C Premie" get nothing. Then all the horses in each group are graded one against the other, so you know which yearling in the "A Premie" group placed first, second, etc. We do basically the same thing. The young (under 3) are all grouped together and shown to the audience from the highest scoring to the lowest. Comments are normally made by the evaluators on at least several of the highest scoring ones. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Reading the List lately, I'm delighted so many breeders want Evaluations to happen on a regular basis around the country. This is a milestone in the maturation of North America Fjord breeders. I'm also pleased people are talking Conformation Evaluations in lieu of both Conformation & Performance. MOST IMPORTANT for young stock (weanlings, yearlings, two-year-olds). It's at these ages that breeders make decisions about their horses; therefore, they need those horses Evaluated by competent Fjord judges. Twenty years ago when we first started in N.H., Bob van Bon, Chief Inspector of Fjords for Holland, told a group of East Coast breeders that the most important thing they could do for the breed was to "EVALUATE & IDENTIFY THE YOUNG FJORDS." Today, Holland, Norway, Germany, Belgium, and I believe, Sweden & Denmark all hold Evaluations of youngstock. I can't speak for any other country except Holland, but there the youngsters who are Evaluated are also micro-chipped at the same time, and hair is taken for DNA testing as well. This does not mean that I think Performance Evaluations are not important. I thorougly agree with Nancy Hotovy's point regarding what has happened to some other breeds that became nothing but HALTER HORSES. In other words, horses that looked pretty in front of a judge, but couldn't do anything or stay sound. --- However, I think that rather than waiting until we're capable of putting on full-blown Evaluations all around the country, we should go ahead with the Conformations Evaluations in as many sites as possible. And again, it's important to remember that Conformation Evaluations are NOT HALTER CLASSES. It's not the prettiest Fjord that wins. It's not even a question of winning. It's a question of coming closest to the Approved Breed Standard. That means, it would be possible for every Fjord shown at an Evaluation to be a Blue Ribbon Fjord if every horse shown met the Breed Standard. --- I'll probably get called on that, but that's the way I understand Evaluations. To go back to the Dutch system - They evaluate their youngsters as "A Premie", "B Premie" or "C Premie". There's no "D" level, so it's understood that horses not good enough for the "C Premie" get nothing. Then all the horses in each group are graded one against the other, so you know which yearling in the "A Premie" group placed first, second, etc. Most likely, Evaluations will remain voluntary in North America (they are in Holland), and having an unevaluated Fjord does not mean that horse is inferior to an evaluated one. (It may not have been possible for that owner to get to an Evaluation). However, it's to his advantage to make every effort, as the owner of the Evaluated Fjord has WRITTEN PROOF POSITIVE of the quality of his horse, while the other owner has only his OPINION. Therefore, I would think most people who are serious about Fjord breeding would make every effort, if at all possible, to have their horses evaluated. The new NFHR ruling that Evaluations can be held on the farm goes a long way toward making them more available to everybody interested. As to individual breeders being capable of evaluating their own horses, there's a danger there. It's a natural tendency to look at a group of horses and pick out the best one. Everybody likes to do that. But, how many breeders have the experience, knowledge, guts and honesty to say, "None of them are any good!" Often, he'll end up choosing the "best of the worst", and honestly thinking he's got a quality Fjord. That's the danger as I see it. "Barn Blindness" can happen to all of us. A clear understanding of the Breed Standard is necessary. But there's more to it than just ticking off points on the Standard. Judging Fjordhorses requires a real feeling for the breed, and an exceptional eye for a good horse. These traits are both innate and acquired. Not everybody posseses them, but not having them doesn't mean you can't be a quality breeder of Fjords. You can be . . . With the aid of Evaluations. Best Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 05:56 PM 8/13/99 -0600, you wrote: In a perfect Fjord world I think these evaluations would help us to "weed out breeding stock that didn't quite measure up, In reality isn't that what we do already? We select the best mares available and breed to the best stallion , knowing that we are using our own evaluations. I don't really think it works exactly like this. It is more likely that a stallion owner breeds all of his/her own mares that wouldn't cause an inbred situation. Once someone owns a stallion they don't very often use outside stallions unless it is because of close relationships. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 03:14 PM 8/14/99 -0400, you wrote: I still have a few questions. Are evaluations permitted on the owner's farm? Yes they are. As long as the farm owner can provide the necessary facilities to hold one. And, are there any efforts underway to have scores printed on pedigrees? No. The only thing that goes on the pedigrees are the "Medallions" Medallions are awarded to horses that score at least a red ribbon or higher in both the Conformation & at least 1 performance test. You will see them listed on the pedigrees as - G4, G3, G2, & G1 for the advanced level performance tests and S4, S3, S2, & S1 for the Introductory tests. 1 being the highest (most tests) and 4 being just one performance test. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:41 PM 8/14/99 -0400, you wrote: The advantage we have at Blue Earth is the fairgrounds are no charge, the fair covers liability and so far they have not even charged us for stalls. They even provide the materials we need for trail classes, etc. It really is hard to beat. Yes you have an ideal situation there for sure. My personal opinion is even that some might like a conformation evaluation only, the performance is the part that shows just what our Fjords can do. Yes I agree with you Nancy but I think maybe there is reason to have just a conformation Evaluation too. It sure can be put on in a much lesser space than the whole thing needs. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 05:50 PM 8/13/99 -0400, you wrote: A conformation evaluation here on our farm in North Carolina. If it were financially feasible, Barb and I would love to have every single one of our 18 Fjords evaluated for conformation. Since Jane and Harlan Sawyer are also here in NC with 13 Fjords, assuming they would want to participate, we might try to work out the following: Pay the evaluators for two days work which would include a conformation evaluation (open to everyone) here in Salisbury, then one at the Sawyer's in Asheville (also open to anyone else), and then swinging up to Virginia for another one or two conformation evaluations. Well I think it would be possible Brian. I don't know traveling times between these locations but I would think it should be possible. Not sure about all in 2 days or not but not out of the question at any rate. Evaluating only for conformation should be much quicker and easier than including the performance parts. At all of the other ones the Conformation part was normally the better part of a day. Of course that was doing about 25 - 30 horses too. So yes your 18 could be done in say 5 - 6 hours or so I would guess. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 12:52 PM 8/13/99 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Strictly as a novice in this discussion, altho I have had and been to evaluations. Who knows four judges experienced and qualified who would grade one horse the same way? Isn't it the same with evaluators? Sure it is. But that is why there are 2 of them. It would be better to have more than 2 but the cost keeps going up. Also the way the program is designed the Evaluator has to score the horse based on a score sheet that has all the items to be evaluated. For instance the Head, Neck, Body, Forelegs, Hindlegs, all have a section worth 10 points each. Then there is 10 points given for each of the following: Movement/Walk, Movement/Trot & Overall. Then there are 20 points given for Type. Each of the different categories is broken down into from 3 - 11 different items. I also wonder why evaluations can not or are they attached to shows so costs are lessened? They usually are. Not always though. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:36 PM 8/13/99 -0800, you wrote: Mike has said 'It is what the members want and they will get it.' Well, I'm a member and I don't want it and I'm not sure what I'd be getting if it is implemented. It is what the majority of the members want I am afraid Mike. And it has been implemented as much as I know it is going to be already. We have had 5 Evaluations to date. The way it sounds right now we may have 3 or 4 more next year already. I think the world has got plenty of rules and regulations as it is. No one says that you have to participate. Our commitment as a breeding operation comes from a personal vision that is not likely to be subordinated to external judgements. Oh it is subject to external judgements alright. Your customers are full of external judgements. If they like what they see they will but. If they don't like what they see they will probably keep looking. I'd like to know what kind of 'tie in' the Registry sees for evaluations. Would they be optional? I hope so. Yes they are certainly optional. I doubt very much that they would ever be mandatory. I'd appreciate some clarification on this point as the discussion continues. I appreciate the NFHR's support of the breeders and the breed and hope that it remains broadbased in the future. Me too. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evaluations/conformation
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On organizing evaluations. Ceacy Henderson and I ran a two day Dutch evaluation with performance and although I was tired at the end it was hardly the most stressful event of my life. I probably spent 20 hours on the phone lining up facility, insurance, porta potty etc. We used the Dutch system and their excellent IBOP tests. As I recall we had a moderately good turnout. Running the Dutch evaluation was far easier than running a CDE or any small horse show about 1/60 the number of people are required. I have no experience with American Evaluations so I couldn't tell you if there's something in the format that makes them so much more difficult to run. On performance testing. I think it's very important to have performance tests for two reasons. .1. It is another gauge with which to measure your Fjords breeding worth 2. For those people who are not interested in breeding or who's horses might not be the best conformational specimans ,performance is another important area in which to show off your skills as a horseman and the talents of your Fjord. I will point out that it takes at least several months of steady work to prepare an already broke horse for an IBOP test, but the gelding owners who participate are very proud of their horses and several went on to garner a prestatie rating. . A true testament to the breeds useability and versatility. Vivian Creigh
Re: evaluations/conformation
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Julie, everyone, A conformation evaluation is what we (Great Lakes Fjordhest) have been considering too. We are not sure if we would have a great deal of entries for performance, plus the costs pretty much prohibit a full scale eval at this time. What really is starting to concern me about this, however, is the issue of evaluating young horses. At what age do the evaluators really begin to seriously evaluate horses? Lynda Daniel Bailey and Lynda C. Welch-Bailey Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI
Re: evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, Alex. It sounds like there's plenty of interest down here after all. Maybe I can get something cooking - I will be looking seriously into it and will let you know how it progresses. Dr. Brian, your idea about having it on your farm was good, too - you certainlly have more horses to evaluate than any of the rest of us, and it would be harder to move them. Sue Banks, got your e-mail and I'm glad you're interested too. I'll be getting with you to talk about ideas and details. Anybody else, please e-mail privately with questions, ideas, thoughts, locations - maybe we can really make this happen!
Re: evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is from Alex Wind in Shawsville, VA. I would love to have an evaluation in Virginia. Perhaps at Free Union, VA, or at the horse center in Lexington, VA. Lexington is about 2 hrs., Free Union about 3 hrs. from here. If I had more Fjords, I would offer to host, but I only have two. Frank Bayliss, has eight or ten, including a stallion, in Tom's Creek, VA, right off Hwy 81, he isn't active in The Registry, but might want to participate in an evaluation. Keep me posted on the possibilities, please. Alex
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Nathan Lapp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Life is like a river and if you're not still rowing, you're >drifting downstream. Is that a Brian Jacobson original quote? It is so true. >Please don't be threatened by evaluations. They are not something that >is going to condemn those who don't choose to participate. Instead, they >will help us all learn more about our Fjords and allow some to >distinguish themselves and their horses. Let me add, the evaluations offer benefit not only to the owner of the horse but to the "non-evaluating people" who can use the scores as a guide in purchasing breeding stock. Most of all, please don't make >your decision about them until you have all the facts. Hopefully, most >of the facts have been presented these last few days. I still have a few questions. Are evaluations permitted on the owner's farm? And, are there any efforts underway to have scores printed on pedigrees? Barbara Lyn Lapp
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] At the risk of wearing out my welcome on the List, I'm replying to Joe and Denise Galbraith's message about evaluations posted today (the 13 th). >I have read all of your comments on he subject of Evaluations. It sounds like a neat >thing to do if one has the desire not to mention the money to participate. If a person is a breeder, there is a very real possibility of getting that money back. There are people out there, in all areas of the country, who are looking for something that stands out. That's why they are attracted to Fjords in the first place. And some of them are willing to pay more for what they perceive as higher quality. Again, that's why they were attracted to Fjords in the first place. True, not everyone will pay the $250 more you'll charge to cover your costs for the increased expense, but some will. And that may not be an expense you have every year either; You might just do your breeding stock to start with. >In reality we all know that these things tend to be very political. Well knowns seem to >be favored over some [n]ot so well knownWhat makes a judges opinion so perfect? >I have been to countless draft events and many horse shows and I see and hear how >unfair the judge was. Judges are human and many winners know what the judge is >looking for and it's not always necessarily the best horse. This is the best argument FOR evaluations that I have ever heard! In a SHOW, those things you mentioned can and do happen. That is the key behind EVALUATIONS - to minimize those very things. In a SHOW, the judge is the highest authority, and he/she calls 'em as he sees 'em, or calls 'em as he wants to see 'em. You can't argue because you have nothing to stand on; It's all one person's opinion. In an EVAL, the Breed Standard is the highest authority, and the judge calls them in relation to that standard. If an evaluator is trying to advance his/her own agenda, they can be called on the carpet because Fjord owners have something in black and white to stand on in their defense. Am I ignorant enough to think evaluations are perfect and there is no potential for abuse? No. But nothing's perfect, and there is potential for abuse in any program. This is a type of system that has worked well for many years in other places. >In a perfect Fjord world I think these evaluations would help us to "weed out breeding >stock that didn't quite measure up, In reality isn't that what we do already? We select >the best mares available and breed to the best stallion , knowing that we are using our >own evaluations. No, actually, that is not what we do at all. We start out with a filly or two, or a mare or two. Most likely the fillies or mares we bought were pretty good, but the main reasons we bought them were it was something we could afford and they were close enough to go look at easily. Some of us may have purchased horses from all the way across the country, but that's the minority. If we are just mare owners with no stallion, we are much more likely to breed to a stallion within driving distance than we are to do AI with what would be the best stallion for that mare. Yes, some AI is done, but again, it is the minority. If we go in for buying our own colt or stallion, we do try to be pretty selective, but again, geography and price are most often the main determining factors. We buy the best colt we can afford that's within a day's drive. Then, after we have our own mares and we have bought our stallion, what are the chances that we are going to pay someone else to breed to their stallion? Not likely. Even if we get another mare that maybe should be bred to a stallion that would compliment her better than ours does? Not likely. And when you say, "knowing we are using our own evaluations", we need to remember that we cannot be objective enough to do the best job. It is easy for a horse's good points to outweigh the bad in our minds, even if the bad points are bad enough that maybe the horse shouldn't be bred. Especially if you paid good money for that horse. Also, don't overrate "our own evaluations". The saying that "you can't improve it if you can't measure it" is very true in regards to horses, and I'll be shocked if even 1% of Fjord owners actually "measure" their horses' good and bad qualities and performance abilities like is done at an "official" evaluation. >I suggest you have confidence in your own abilities. I do too, but know very well your limitations. You are suggesting that most people are able to tell whether a horse is good or not. Joe and Denise, you have probably been around horses a while and can pretty much tell whether a horse is good or not. But the plain fact is that MOST people CANNOT tell. There are not enough hours in the day for me to tell you all the times I have talked with people who thought they were getting a good a horse and did not (I'm talking all breeds here; Not necessarily Fjords)
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "Bushnell's" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:36 PM 8/13/99 -0800, you wrote: >This message is from: misha nogha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I dont want to dampen all the >obvious enthusiasm that some members have for the process, but I dont >share their excitement. Im not interested in hauling my horses all over >the country and paying that kind of money for someone elses opinion >regardless of who they are or what kind of training theyve had. We entirely agree. That was a very well written post. (I've often thought about a horses perspective from a trailer cross-country.. a non-stop horizontal elevator experience! Many spend more time in transit than on the trail, pitiful.) Ruthie Bushnell, NW MT
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "Nathan Lapp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here I come again with my background in purebred dairy cows. "Classifiers," we call the evaluators in cattle language. They come to the farm every seven months and put a score on all of the cows. It's optional, of course, and quite expensive--costs us $400. for 60 cows each time. The payback is in selling breeding stock, which is not important to most "commercial" farmers who make their living just selling milk and getting beef price for their worn out cows. They don't classify. But they are the first to come to herds like ours for breeding bulls whose dams and sires all have classification scores and official milk records. The way I see it, it's a great advantage to the breed to have the evaluation option available. A bit more of a breeders' tool than showing, which tends to compare with other animals rather than breed standards. When we bought our first mare and knew little about the breed except that we loved their temperament and sturdiness, it was a wonderful reassurance to see she had been evaluated by professionals, with scores on different body traits. We felt Julia Will was honest and selling us a good horse but this was quite a bonus! We would indeed be interested in evaluating our other mare--don't think we can drive as far as Virginia though. Barbara Lyn Lapp in Western New York where it tried to rain today but couldn't, and wells are getting low.
Re: evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:59:57 -0400 Julia Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >Jan, there are a growing number of Fjord owners in Virginia. Why don't you see if you >(collectively) could host at least a conformation evaluation in your state? I'm sure Brian >would support it. Right Brian??? I will definitely support/ help put on/ participate in an evaluation in Virginia. Since you mentioned it though, I'm going to be a little selfish and tell you what I would really like best; A conformation evaluation here on our farm in North Carolina. If it were financially feasible, Barb and I would love to have every single one of our 18 Fjords evaluated for conformation. Since Jane and Harlan Sawyer are also here in NC with 13 Fjords, assuming they would want to participate, we might try to work out the following: Pay the evaluators for two days work which would include a conformation evaluation (open to everyone) here in Salisbury, then one at the Sawyer's in Asheville (also open to anyone else), and then swinging up to Virginia for another one or two conformation evaluations. Perhaps the Stifels would want one; If so, that would be eastern VA. We would have to pay for/ provide means of travel for the evaluators, and it would be two busy days, but I would think it's workable. Evaluating only for conformation should be much quicker and easier than including the performance parts. How about it - who within driving distance of Charlotte or Asheville, NC, or somewhere in the state of Virginia (that's real helpful isn't it), would be interested in a conformation only evaluation in 2000? Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:04 PM 8/12/99 -0800, you wrote: I just hope we can keep the evaluations in the voluntary basis. If a person wants to, if they think that it makes their horse more valuable, they should do it. If they don't want to deal with it. That should be fine too. I don't see that changing anytime soon if ever Misha. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:59 PM 8/12/99 -0400, you wrote: I am thinking that a conformation evaluation would be much less difficult to organize and host, and certainly a good place to start. Many people don't have horses trained to a level of performance to do well in a working evaluation and would only do the conformation portion anyway. Yes it would be for sure. It could be done in one day too. So the Evaluators fees would be half right there. You would still have the travel expense though. You also wouldn't need the rental of a show grounds to save some more money. The other side is that you cannot earn a Medallion for your horse without passing at least 1 of the performance tests. But you would certainly have a better idea of his/her conformation. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Julie, That is what we were interested in, ourselves, a conformation evaluation. Maybe all of us can figure out a way to get this done? Lynda Daniel Bailey and Lynda C. Welch-Bailey Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:07 PM 2/27/99 -0600, you wrote: >This message is from: "Tom Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Dear Mike and all, > I guess I am confused about having an evaluation. My understanding is >that at present we have no evaluators- Is this incorrect. As far as I know this is incorrect. Wayne did tell me that he didn't want to do anymore. Jim has never that I know of said that to anyone officially. I am not sure that Wayne has officially said he will not do anymore at all or not either. He is (I am pretty sure) still interested in doing some education type stuff with us. Like the clinic that your group just held and was a very big success from what I have heard. We need more of these kind of events they are a wonderful way for people to be educated about the Fjords. Congratulations to your group for a wonderful event. >Am I wrong in >that the NFHR BOD has to make some decisions on the recommendations of the >Evaluation Committee before another evaluation can be held? Yes this is incorrect. The system is still in tact as far as I know. I know of at least 2 people that are completely qualified to do an evaluation right now. They have both been to Norway to the stallion show and have also been at Norwegian evaluations here in the US as the "American Judge" >Is it just rumors that Wayne and Jim will no longer work together I will not comment on rumors. As far as I know Wayne is still reading this list. If he wants to confirm that he can. >and that we need two >evaluators and that there are no other choices? We do according to our present rules still need 2 evaluators. There are other choices however. >Did the board decide >something since the the middle of February about training more evaluators >and giving them the "license" to evaluate? The proposal put forth by the Eval committee is still not approved as it was written. I don't know if it will be or not as written. It is still a "Work in Progress" so to speak. However even if it was approved tomorrow it would not provide new evaluators for several years. It is not an overnight operation. No magic wand is ever used for this process. We do need a training program for evaluators and we do need one setup soon. We are on the right track with it and people are going to have to grow some thick skins when some of these issues are discussed. >P.S. The MWFHC will have another evaluation in 2000 if I have any say >about it. Yes I'll do, and am aware of the work. Please put this request in a letter to the NFHR BOD. It can be an email if you want. You can send it to me and I will make sure it is on the next BOD meeting agenda. Put some dates with it, a location and contact people. I know you are aware of the amount of work. I commend you and all of the members of the MWFHC for all of your efforts in the midwest. It is nice to see such an active group as yours is. You have a wonderful group of people there. Mike
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Tom! Would that evaluation be held in MN? Thanks, Lynda, counting the days until Michigan!
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Tom Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear Mike and all, I guess I am confused about having an evaluation. My understanding is that at present we have no evaluators- Is this incorrect. Am I wrong in that the NFHR BOD has to make some decisions on the recommendations of the Evaluation Committee before another evaluation can be held? Is it just rumors that Wayne and Jim will no longer work together and that we need two evaluators and that there are no other choices? Did the board decide something since the the middle of February about training more evaluators and giving them the "license" to evaluate? Please let me know on the digest or in person. Thanks Tom. P.S. The MWFHC will have another evaluation in 2000 if I have any say about it. Yes I'll do, and am aware of the work. -- > From: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Evaluations > Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 7:29 AM > > This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > At 04:01 PM 2/26/99 -0500, you wrote: > >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >I was worried about when/how to have my new Fjords evaluated as soon as > >possible. I actually recieved an email in answer stating something to the > >effect of not to worry, the MidWest Group has evaluations every THREE YEARS! > >Now seriously. How workable is this for those of us wishing to have our > >horses evaluated so we can indeed ascertain the level of quality we currently > >own, in order to "correctly" show and breed for conformation, temperament, > >movement, etc.? > > > >I know there is another evaluation scheduled NEXT year in CA. About 2500 > >miles away from me. I suppose I will have to load up every animal, regardless > >if I wish them evaluated or not, to make such a lengthy trip. No offense to > >anyone on the board, but I do get the impression the criteria of some of the > >list's PEERS is hard on small farms and newcomers due to the very fact of how > >inaccessible the current program is for small farms and newcomers to the Fjord > >world. > > I think it needs to be said here that the BOD of the NFHR has NEVER said no > to anyone or any group wishing to hold an evaluation. So lets not be > blaming them for the low numbers of evaluations going on. They are a LOT > of work for whoever decides to put one on. If you don't believe that just > ask Gayle, Nancy, Kit or Kip about it. They take an awful lot of > organization & planning. > > I would encourage any of the NFHR members that want an evaluation in there > area to step forward and say so. The only way they will continue is if > someone decides to do the work and put one on. Fair warning though, it > isn't a walk in the park! > > Mike > >
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike! I have no doubt it is very hard work. I was merely pointing out the fact that to a newcomer, it almost seems as if all horses are "worthless" as breeders unless they have been shown/evaluated, which I can certainly understand. BUT, to avoid this problem, more evaluations seems to be the answer. I am sure once my feet are thoroughly sunk very deep in the manure pile, I will be asking how one does this evaluation thing. Lynda, temporarily from Texas where it is STILL bloody hot
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:50 AM 12/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: "Mike May, Webmaster of NFHR.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >At 11:19 PM 12/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >>This message is from: SUSAN L GIARGIARI <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Whoops, sorry about the webmaster address. Forgot to change hats! === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Webmaster of NFHR.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:19 PM 12/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >This message is from: SUSAN L GIARGIARI <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Mike, maybe you can answer this one- Does the NFHR still put the Dutch or >Norwegian Eval awards on the NFHR Registration papers? It was decided by the BOD back when the American Evaluations were started that we would no longer be involved with the Dutch or Norwegian Evaluations as we had in the past. That I believe was done so that people would come to the American ones rather than go to Dutch or Norwegian ones if held. I think it would be very confusing to still use all three systems. They all have different scoring, different tests, etc. If Evaluations are to be of use I think they need to be done with the same requirements for all of the horses. To further answer your question on whether we record the Dutch or Norwegian results- If the horse is imported from a different country and already has a premium then it is recorded with us when it is registered with us. Mike
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: SUSAN L GIARGIARI <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Howdy List! I just thought I'd jump in with my thoughts on Evals and why ,I, as a breeder am more than willing and wanting to participate in the Evals. Be they American, Dutch or Norwegian! As a breeder I am very interested in having our stock evaluated to know the good and the faults. This certainly helps to make an informed decision when matching a mare to our stallion or our mare to another stallion. I don't do it for the "status" it can give to some, as mentioned. I would encourage those who don't have breeding stock to also participate in Evals, as these are the Fjords being produced by the breeders. This can give valuable feedback with our particular matches of Dams and Sires. Saying that 90 % of the NFHR have not even evaluated their horses is jumping the gun alittle to quick. The American Evaluations were just started in 1995(I may be wrong, was one done in "94?). It takes alot to put together an Eval. Enough people have to committ with a $50 deposit and then hopefully come through. We committed to Blue Earth, MN this year and due to personal reasons could not attend. This was a big dissappoint! Going thru an Eval with different horses or the same ones being done again, maybe in tip top shape this time, is very educational and informative. I know I will never know it all, far from it, and am always willing to learn more. Mike, maybe you can answer this one- Does the NFHR still put the Dutch or Norwegian Eval awards on the NFHR Registration papers? Anton, even though this might be the case (with the NFHR not recognizing your Eval with the Dutch ) you still should get your Dutch Papers and Certificates from Bob Von Bon. Our mares were evaluated here by the Dutch and Norwegian over the last 7 years, as well as the Americans, and we have their papers and they are listed in the Dutch studbook. As was brought up by others on the list, a breeder's efforts to get their livestock evaluated can speak volumns. I do it out of dedication of doing right by these wonderous creatures! I wish that my husband and I could have gotten up to your place for the Evaluation and visit from Bob! Time to go out and change the dogs around-- two pups together on 80 acres spells trouble, with hunters now very visisble in the woods!! Now, only one at a time is loose. Hope you all have your holiday shopping done!! :-) Sue G
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe it's time to ask the Europeans back to evaluate until we have sufficient numbers of people interested and trained.(which it seems to me will take some time) The Warmbloods and Freisians use Europeans annually. There are very few Freisians in this country and they manage with the same problems(size of USA and small numbers at evaluations) that we struggle with. For awhile there we were on a role in the northeast having three evaluations in a row in the early ninties all done by Bob van Bon which I thought provided some continuity. I have some problems with the current NFHR proposal, but lack of time prevents me from outlining them here. And without going back to to reread your post Nancy, did you address evaluation of riding, driving and draft tests? This very important aspect of the program allows for all of us to have highly rated horses although not always of great conformation and provides the impetus to take the little used Fjord out of the pasture and make him a star. Ignoring this aspect and focusing entirely or primarily on conformation will most certainly put some people off. Also performance tests open the evaluations up to non-breeders. We already have qualified people to judge the disciplines in the USDF and ADS judges list. I'm certain that there is a similar organization involved in Western riding . Please forgive me if you addressed this issue in your post I'm sorta rushed this morning as Thanksgiving is hot upon us I hope the Americans on this list enjoy the day and all others have good weather and great riding and driving while we eat ourselves into a stupor Vivian Creigh
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:39 PM 11/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: Nancy Hotovy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >For those new to the list, the Midwest Fjord Horse Club is sponsoring a >clinic with Wayne Hipsley on February 6 and 7th in Galena, Illinois. If >anyone is interested, please contact me privately. > >Gayle Ware, Anne Appleby, Brian Jenson and Wayne Hipsley will be doing >another clinic this spring (I think Memorial Day Weekend). For anyone >able attend, this is an excellent educational clinic. Both of these events are listed in the "News & Events" section of the NFHR home page also. For more details see the home page at www.nfhr.com Mike == Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations hosted by Fjord owners
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:21 PM 10/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Information Architecture) > >Second, concerning lowered costs, how many Fjord owners have stalls for the >26 horses at the Oregon Evaluation or the 39 (!) at the Blue Earth >Evaluation. What, exactly, do you propose to do? Have the horses shown out >of their trailers? I am not set up to do so if the weather is unpleasant, Well in the Vermont eval they didn't have enough stalls at the grounds they rented either. So they made arrangements for some of the horses to be stabled nearby. I know it isn't a great way to do it but it did work. >and here it Oregon it can rain ANY TIME OF THE YEAR. How many of you have >washracks to accomodate that many horses? How many of you have hot and cold >washracks? As far as I know the only one that actually had a wash rack so far was the Oregon one. Blue Earth doesn't have one. Libby for sure doesn't have a wash rack out on the old airstrip. I don't remember one at the Vermont one either. A wash rack is not one of the required amenities in the site prep guide. >How much do you think portable stalls and port-a-pots cost? A lot. You are right here. But even at the Oregon one Gayle had to rent one or two of them. The facility as nice as it was didn't have adequate facilities in this area. >My guess is that these expenses are going to eat in to the amount of money >you'd save by not renting an arena. And what about insurance? Most rented >arenas require that you also provide insurance, but most farms are no >appropriately insured for an event with outside horses, so there would still >be the insurance expense. As far as I can see, the most you'd save around >here is the $180 to $300 a day that it costs to actually rent the arena, and >I believe that's less than 1/4 of the total cost of the Evaluation. I don't disagree with you on your savings Becky. That is upwards of $600 though. Divide that with the average of 30 horses and it is $20 a horse. The other advantage to the barn owner is that they can have a lot more horses evaluated because they don't have the transportation time or expense to add in. I think it would allow for a greater number of horses to be evaluated. >My largest problem with the use of private farms owned by Fjord owners is >not exactly cost related. It's the arena itself. How many Fjord owners >have 100 x 200 indoor arenas? If they don't have the proper size arena then they are out of the running. It is the one thing that IS clearly defined in the handbook. To host an evaluation you would have to have an area setup for the driving performance of 40 x 80 meters. That is 132 x 262 feet. That is the large arena. The small one is 20 x 40 meters or 66 x 132 feet. Neither of them have to be indoors. It does not have to be a permenant ring with proper type fence either. It can be setup in an open field with good footing using a portable chain or rope type ring as was done in Blue earth & the Vermont evals. An indoor arena is not required though. The Oregon eval was the first one that even had one available. None of the other sites have had an indoor arena available for use. >So who's going to judge if so and so's arena is adequate? What do we do, fly >an Evaluation Committee member out there to evaluate the arena? I doubt it. We trusted someone with the site selection at each of them before. Maybe we should require layouts & diagrams with dimensions of the arenas etc though, probably with photographs of the areas. I agree it will be hard to tell the footing without actually riding on it. Of course the footing can change with the weather too. Mike == Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > BKFJORDS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Evaluations are a very good thing, but ours, as set up, I feel may > discourage the beginner in the performance divisions. > Does anyone else feel this way? Some of those 'movements' require > much training, that perhaps the 'pet' horse owner cannot master > easily. I have attended one of the Dutch Evaluations, and this was > fairly simple and you could tell much about the horses. [...] > Bernadine Karns I agree that much of what is involved in the American performance evaluations is beyond the skill level of not only my Fjords, but also myself! (Our preferred type of riding is rural trails; our riding style is "whatever works"; our tack is "endurance"---OrthoFlex saddles, and nylon bridles. I find the current divisions into English vs Western, with nothing else allowed, to be excessively structured.) If I were serious about having my stock evaluated, I'd have to send the animals out to a trainer, who'd not only install the right buttons, but also "show" the animal for me at the evaluation. However, as I see it, evaluations were intended for breeders, and maybe trainers or dealers. There is very little incentive for us "end users" to take our horses to an evaluation. Consider my herd. Nansy is 29---long past her breeding years, and sufficiently arthritic that she couldn't trot sound if her life depended on it. Rom has conformation that is sufficiently bad that even I can see it; why pay someone to tell me that? Sleepy has already been informally evaluated (scored fairly well as a 2-year-old), by David Klove, at one of the Libby clinics that led up to the evaluation program. Besides, I KNOW that he's perfect, so why pay someone to disagree with me? ;-) Of course, I make most of the same arguments against showing in general. It's fine for professionals and other status-conscious folks, OK as a spectator-sport for the rest of us. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 30 mi SSE of San Francisco, Calif. ---
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 04:15 PM 5/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >This message is from: "the Sessoms'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Thanks a bunch, Mike, for putting the Conformation and Performance >Evaluation Program info on a NFHR web page . That answers a lot of my >questions. > Your welcome, hopefully it will be of use to others as well. Thanks to Dave & Pam McWethy for the idea too. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry http://www.nfhr.com Mike May, Registrar mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 ===
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "the Sessoms'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks a bunch, Mike, for putting the Conformation and Performance Evaluation Program info on a NFHR web page . That answers a lot of my questions. Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy, Tennessee USA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Dorina - NFR Aagot - - - Fjords - Caper - Carly - Crickett - - - Labradors
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 06:34 PM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote: >This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >This is from Julie responding to Gail regarding photo's - we are leaving for >Norway (eat your hearts out!!!) on Saturday, so please don't send the picture >of Gunthar until we get back. (The 11th of May.) As soon as we are back I >will post a message on the net letting all of you know how the horses in the >"home" country look this year! I also plan to video tape as many of the >stallions as possible, and will be glad to make copies for anyone who sends me >blank tapes and a mailer to get them back. I will be discussing the >"in-progress" NFHR breed standard with reps from the Norges Fjordhestlag as >well...should be a very stimulating and educational trip! > >I anticipate that my computer will be positively spilling over the desk with >email when we return...I hope it doesn't self destruct! Julie in New York > Have a wonderful time over there Julie. So is the new house and barn going to be all built when you return? ;-) === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry http://www.nfhr.com Mike May, Registrar mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 ===
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This is from Julie responding to Gail regarding photo's - we are leaving for Norway (eat your hearts out!!!) on Saturday, so please don't send the picture of Gunthar until we get back. (The 11th of May.) As soon as we are back I will post a message on the net letting all of you know how the horses in the "home" country look this year! I also plan to video tape as many of the stallions as possible, and will be glad to make copies for anyone who sends me blank tapes and a mailer to get them back. I will be discussing the "in-progress" NFHR breed standard with reps from the Norges Fjordhestlag as well...should be a very stimulating and educational trip! I anticipate that my computer will be positively spilling over the desk with email when we return...I hope it doesn't self destruct! Julie in New York
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We have to send them directly to each other or we will definitely be in big trouble with Steve. A little awkward, I know. It would be better to get them posted to a Web page so we don't have to go through the struggle of downloading them individually and filling up our hard drives (Gunthar is stunning, yes, but you will think less of his beauty when you see the space he takes on your harddrive - about one floppy I think). Anyway, if you are still enthusiastic I will forward the picture, plus my comments, plus the comments (cryptic, unfortunately - I;m told the new evaluations are much more comprehensive) *from his 1992 Fjord evaluation at Libby.* At 03:59 PM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote: >This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >At 08:53 AM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >>This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> Hey Gail, this is Julie @ Old Hickory Farm. I think it would be a fun >exercise, and I would be happy to participate as well with photos of horses >from our farm. However, we need to check with Steve, because I think I >remember reading that one shouldn't post pictures??? Are you sure Gunther >wouldn't object? Fortunately, Gunthar is not vain, he is hungry! Gail > > > > Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:53 AM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hey Gail, this is Julie @ Old Hickory Farm. I think it would be a fun exercise, and I would be happy to participate as well with photos of horses from our farm. However, we need to check with Steve, because I think I remember reading that one shouldn't post pictures??? Are you sure Gunther wouldn't object?
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This discussion is very helpful to me, a new Fjord owner. A couple thoughts re the utility of on farm, in person and cyber evaluations. It seems there are at least two distinct (and maybe others I do not recognize) reasons for evaluations. Serious breeders want evaluations to use in marketing their stock. They need a recognized standard that will reward them for taking the time and trouble to breed good stock. If there is no North American evaluation the breeder is not rewarded for producing good North American-bred stock. Instead, the breeders are rewarded for importing European stock that has been evaluated. It is to everyone's advantage (owners and breeders) to have such a program in place that should improve the overall quality of NA bred Fjords. Owners (defined as novice owners and owners who might breed only occasionally)want to know (1) how to buy a "good Fjord" and (2) whether their Fjord is a "good Fjord." Owners are motivated to know either because they might want to breed their Fjord (or acquire breeding stock) or just out of ego/curiosity reasons. I have been persuaded that breeders justifiably want to avoid a cyber/picture evaluation because of the unavoidable distortion that comes from camera angles, etc. A video evaluation instead of an evaluation from still shots might help - but maybe not. I am still not sure what to think about the on-farm evaluations. Since the stakes are so high when a breeder's horse is evaluated, I understand that a breeder wants their horse evaluated "in-the-flesh" and alongside other Fjords for comparison. Owners, on the other hand, do not have so much to gain or lose from an informal commentary on/assessment of their animal if it does not involve any kind of award that makes the animal more valuable for breeding/sale. In that case, I think even cyber "evaluation," with all its hazards, would be worthwhile. For example, if I put up a picture of Gunthar on the Web and invited comments on his feet, legs, back, hip, neck, head, mouth, feet, I would learn something about the difference between a good and bad Fjord. This would better inform my buying/breeding decisions (which would, in turn, be helpful to breeders of quality stock). It would also keep me entertained and out of trouble. :) If I then shared the comments with others, others could learn as well. Not sure what to do about "movement analysis", unless we start video-taping our horses and sending the tape around the country. Re the logistics: I am not sure their is any way to get a good-sized picture (at least 3 X5) on a web page. If there is, I could send Gunthar's "profile shot" to Saskia, where everyone could see it. Alternatively, I could e-mail Gunthar's pictures to volunteers. I would than volunteer to receive e-mail comments, and compile them into a single e-mail (or a series, cut to manageable size - but including the good, the bad, and the ugly comments). Ideally the comments and picture would be available together on the Web page. Is there interest in this? If the "Gunthar as guinea pig" experiment works, others could do the same. This might take a lot of work, with little real results, - but maybe it would be a spectacular success for those of us who are isolated. Gail Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: "the Sessoms'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Love this thread ... I have a yearling I would dearly love to have evaluated. But, living in Tennessee, if I should ever get one chance to get her to an evaluation a thousand miles away, what would be the best age to take her? What conformation classes do they hold? Do they give written conformation critiques in the US? What classes are they graded in - riding, driving, draft and conformation? Is the draft phase where the horse pulls a log and is ground-driven around obstacles, much like pole-bending? Is there even a glimmer of hope that an evaluation will be held in the Southern states within the next four years? Does Canada have evaluations? It is quite a contradiction that Americans hold the European horses so dear because of their stringent evaluations yet they don't support an evaluation system of their own. A critique by one or more knowledgeable persons would give a breeder an excellent guideline for proper breeding and lessen the chance of doubling up on problems. It seems to me that different stallions would be more beneficial in different times depending on the current problems in the overall breed population and it would help to have a nation-wide system where knowledgeable people could identify the horses who could correct such problems before they become entrenched. America is prone to following fads in breeding animals. One of the main things that attracted me to the Fjord was the naturalness of the breed (except for the snazzy haircut!) and apparent lack of faddish features. A well used evaluation system with country-wide support could keep such silly fads in check. I think Brian had a good idea in not having comformation classes at our breed shows, but having evauations instead. We don't have a 'national champion stallion' in the breed now, do we? Maybe that's better for the breed overall? The only down-side to that that I can think of is that having a national champ is a great boon to the owners and breeders of the animals who gain that title and is something to work towards. I know I've always dreamed of having a National Champion Stallion. :-) On the other hand, it passes by those whose pony might have better conformation but whose pony didn't get as much sleep the night before, etc., since presence gets a lot of attention when they are pitted one against the other. This probably isn't a problem today but it is almost inevitable in this country as the breed grows in numbers. Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy, Tennessee USA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Dorina - NFR Aagot - - - Fjords - Caper - Carly - Crickett - - - Labradors
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Sf Uzanne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have been reading everyone's opinion on evaluations that past few days and thought I might share my opinion on the matter. I am new to the list and have only been training Fjords for about 4 years now. I feel that it is important to have stallions evaluated most of all. Attitude and personality definately gets passed on through generation to generation. I have been training a couple of horses that are son and 3 generation to a particular stallion. By what I have been told about this stallion these two offspring have the same personality and attitude as the Stallion. They are both beautiful and one was origanally purchased as a stud prospect. Thank God it was gelded. The problem is that both are not as easy to train as other Fjords, take advantage at very chance, and pig headed ( excuse me but it's true) If this stallion had been evaluated and attitude/personallity taken into acount it would have been gelded I feel. I wonder if there would ever be a way that there could be "traveling evaluations". What I mean is someone that could go to farms accross the country to atleast evaluate Stallions at breeding farms and also persons living closs to that farm could also come to have their horse(s) evaluated. If these evaluations are not about winning or losing or placing in a class then why couldn't they be done at certain home bases. I know at Old Hickory Farm that there are many Fjords that live within a day or less driving distance that they could haul a horse to. I personally would love to have my mare evaluated but I can't afford to travel out of state. If they were done at farms cost could be cut because there would not be hotel, stabling and ground costs for the horses, owners and evaluators. What do you think? One last question, how does one become certified to judge at an evaluation? Maybe we could get others to get the training that it would require thus, allowing more evaluations accross the United States. I am sure that if there are only a few qualified judges that this plays a part in so few evaluations in so few locations? Any answers to this question would be grealy appriciated. P.S. I think this list is the best thing that could happen for a breed. Great discussion where everyone has a say instead of just the headds of committies speaking for all of us!Signed- Tammy Savery in New York, US
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:46 AM 4/27/98 -0700, you wrote: >This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >This is Julie responding to Gail: As a breeder, I can tell you that I get TONS of calls looking for fully trained, kid safe, riding and driving Fjords. I think part of the problem is lack of supply! I sell the above type about as fast as I get them in. (I buy and sell a lot of Fjords.) This leaves of course my yearling to 3 year olds that are "available" although not fully trained. (We do all the basic training appropriate to the age and don't sell "wild" unmanagable horses.) When we sell a green horse to a green owner, we either board and train the animal if that is feasible, or recommend the buyer get professional help. Of course $$$ always play a part in this. The fully trained horse is much more expensive, and sometimes the price is the deciding factor. I think most reputable breeders try their best to match horse to buyer and be sure the buyer will be satisfied. But there are those who think the Fjord is "born broke" and don't bother with even basic schooling before selling the animal. Over the past few years I have purchased several "herds" of Fjords, in which there were two and three year old stallions, no less, who were hardly halter broken. (Not to mention thin, wormy, etc.) Yes, this can happen, and does happen much to often, to our lovely Fjords. Any time a "quick buck " is out there, new "breeders" emerge, and the decline of the breed begins. > > > > >Forestville CA >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
