Re: [Audyssey] Civilization games on PC or iPhone
Hi Shaun: Sounds to me like poor management on your teams part. Basically, a bunch of people who don't have their act together. As generally having a team will speed up and increase productivity on a project. To give you an example you were talking about a Catch Fish game and not knowing what to do. It is obvious the person running your team doesn't know what he is doing as he should have written up a list of assignments for the team, and told each member of the team what he or she is to do. All members of the team should have copies of the documentation about the project such as an outline of the basic project, and any technical notes he or she has on the over all project. If your team leader doesn't take notes, write up good documentation, etc than he or she is not a good team leader. That is all there is to it. Moreover, I am wondering what possible limitations that your programmers could have run into that made them switch from BGT to VB 6. I've used BGT a bit myself, and I can't find any limitations that would convince me that using Pure Basic or VB 6 would be any better. In fact, I can think of several good reasons to stick with BGT unless there is something absolutely essential to the game that it misses. Cheers! On 12/11/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well as part of a development team doing the deathmatch series, and catchfish among others I can tell you that with a 1 man band or even more than one it really does make things hard. First, if anyone looses energy or interest or has writers block or gets injured somehow, then things just stop. Right now for example I am waiting on others to finnish things before I can run them. This is not so bad right now because I am getting ready for christmas but even so. Point is its quite hard when you are quite small. Not to mention how to code things. Firstly we used bgt and encountered lots of limits pushing it as far as we could. Then pure basic, again pushing the limits well at least finding some issues we can ot seem to get round. Now we are using visualbasic 6. I'd have liked to move away from such an old language but in reality its probably where we will go now. And on that note I have loads of issues playing older games like gma on windows 7 even with my soundcards 3d emulater software, things just don't work right so in short I think I will be using an old xp system for general gaming and maybe a vm later on a server unless I can find out how to game on the nativ system. Sound wise I can only go on what for example is around. In the deathmatch series I have always had a direct idea of how things will go. In the catchfish game, since Its not been written yet, I have huge issue knowing what to do and have put a shot in the dark. This shot was not the greatest but I have had no idea still it was ok. Next is music. I have just had another shot uploading over 600mb of music but again I have no idea how that will go. all I have to go on is some samples of things. So for the small team its really hard especially when you are few, especially when you are in different timezones. It would be impossible to even do this if I was offline though. Even meeting the devs and such we do now was impossible a few years ago. Sertainly I have seen the blind games industry which started with a few small companies, with the event of the game engines and a few other things has drifted to a lot of small indipendant startups one of which I am part of. So its clear the small devs are the way of the future at least for now. A lot of the console games my cousin has like battlefield and several others have quite a crappy storyline but are mainly for the online play. I still like the stories myself online play really needs a real investment which I can't always put in. Right now I am almost done with my computer stuff, but I still need to excersise and do chores and get a tree. I may have time later to game, but maybe not. and with summer coming on much less due to heat. Not being big has its drawbacks. You can't sneak out for a smoke but you don't have deadlines either as such unless you want to. There was talk about going comercial, and we may eventually do so, ofcause there are all the things like incomes and such especially with benifit laws. copywrited material, sounds, etc, and then, there is the comitment and deadlines. The way it is now, it doesn't matter if the stuff that is put out is even released or if it is not in a real time frame. Once you got cash then I'd have to try to at least put time aside to work on things rather than spare time whenever I can. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] accessibility for the deaf/blind
Hi Charles: Speech output no, but we would assume a deaf-blind user would have equipment better suited to his or her disability. As you know there are plenty of notetakers out there with braille displays that can browse the web, read text documents, etc so your point does not hold any water as far as I am concerned. You or I might use a device with speech but a deaf-blind user would still use a device with a braille display. I haven't looked into braille options for iOS, but I do know Android has a program called Brailleback which allows a blind and deaf-blind user to use the device with a braille display via blue tooth. While that seems like a lot of equipment to carry around the point here is a deaf-blind customer would not need a physical hard copy in braille as they probably have equipment suited to reading electronic documents in braille immediately available to them. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Another value of hardcopy braille is that a deaf and blind person can use it. Speech output from a device does them no good. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] accessibility for the deaf/blind
Hi Charles: No one I know of, but that would depend on if they carry a notetaker like a Braille Note etc along with them in a backpack. Back in the day I always use to take my Braille N' Speak with me every where I went, and could look up notes, shopping lists, and even had custom menus I copied down from the print menus so I would have a copy to look at. It is possible some deaf-blind customers may choose to do something similar and have a notetaker and braille display on hand just to use their notetaker as a notetaker where a sighted person might keep such information on their phone or tablet. I don't doubt that carrying a braille display around is a major inconvenience, but we are talking about an extra disability that you or I don't have. A deaf-blind person can't simply pick up an iPhone, Android phone, and use it with speech as you or I could. So that person probably needs a braille display close at hand in order to operate any number of electronic devices a blind person would otherwise use with speech output. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: How many people carry a braille display with them to a restaurant? They are very expensive, as you know. You are born with your fingers. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Some practical questions reguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Dark, As I said, no disrespect intended and I did not say that you were not trying. I simply asked why you seemed to be giving up. Now, that came from the tone of this thread, so my apologies if I misunderstood or if my remarks were at all inappropriate. I can assure you that is never my intention. I do know about your PHD and have quite a bit of respect for that, so just wanting to be clear and let you know. :) However, when threads seem to devolve into people passing around pity, without any ideas to try to help them get out of it, then I tend to bristle a bit. ;) I'm sure you understand. Thank you very much for sharing your efforts! It's very heartening to read. So please know that it's appreciated here! :) As for banging your head against walls which don't seem to be yielding, I agree, focus your effort where you can. If something is resisting then it is usually either not the right time or another differently creative approach may be necessary to help you move toward your intention. Thank you again for sharing what you are doing to promote accessibility. I tend to think that more of what you shared in your below note, would be terrific on this list. Have a great night! Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 11, 2013, at 4:13 PM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: With respect Kara while I aprpeciate your sentiment, at the same time I slightly resent your implication that I do not try with access and advocacy. I spend a considderable amount of time talking to everyone from game developers to shop keepers to even professors, religious leaders, stage directors and even government ministers about access issues, heck I've just spent the last five years writing a phd on the subject! Just today I was discussing game access with a certain developer and indeed I opened my E-mail to share some good news with the list. I'm not saying this to sound arrogant or pretend credit I don't have. There are plenty of good access advocates on the world and indeed many I've met on this list, however please bare in mind when I talk of difficulties with major coorporations, I do so based on a number of experiences. You are absolutely correct that not all major companies are like this (I got a recent surprise from a rail company over guide dogs and setaing for example), however in my general experience someone like mcdonalds, burger king etc is not likely to listen. it's worth a try, indeed whenever I go to a new restaurant I always ask for a braille menu out of reflex just to publicise the need for access, (maybe I should start asking for html ones to read on my iphone instead), however once tried it's likely better to move on to something achieveable than just bang your head against the same brick wall over and over again. For example, I've three times spoken to nintendo, and twice to capcom, and got no where on any occasion. With Indi developers however the reccord has been much more positive, therefore I know which games companies I will spend my time trying to talk to. Hope this makes sense. Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Some practical questions reguarding the Monopoly game Dark, HOw much do you want it and why are you giving up so easily? I'm not trying to disrespect you or in any way invalidate your efforts but if these things are important to you then you owe it to yourself to continue in pursuing them. Just because people say no does not mean that that is the final word. Things change. People change. corporations change and corporate culture changes. -But if you do not continue in the direction you need to then you can be sure that change (if it comes) will come much more slowly without your efforts. How do you think movements get started? Someone doesn't just go out one day and suddenly have a boatload of willing followers and people giving them what they need. ;) No, they need to build credibility and trust over time, until people begin to start seeing things differently. I know this is a gaming list / thread but seriously, if we want accessibility then we are the ones who need to continue promoting this and working with people and companies to get it. Please do not give up, K? Thanks, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 11, 2013, at 9:09 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Sadly charlse that's not how most coroproations work, what, do something against the main corproate policy? they could get into trouble! I'm actually
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Dark: A full sized braille display, as in being able to see an entire page of text, would be heaven. As it is the best we can do is an 80 cell display which shows one line of text at a time, and while useful its not as detailed as I would prefer. I also don't have $5,000 to spend on a new display so rarely use braille on a day to day basis. The most I use braille for is labeling the buttons on the microwave, perhaps playing a hand of Solitaire with a braille deck of cards, or labeling DVD movies or something. Otherwise I have little use for braille. Even the things I use braille for could be replaced by something else. For example, while I have braille on my microwave I could just mark each button with some raised dots to indicate the position of each button. For labeling DVD cases I could get something like your penfriend which would be an audible label rather than a braille one. For Solitaire I can play GMA Solitaire or something else like that. So braille has an extremely low use in my own life since graduation. Cheers! On 12/11/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I could see a braille revival if the technology to produce it ever catches up with speech in cost and ease of use, since imagine all the possibilities of a full sized tactile screen with brailled text, but failing such a technological and economic development your likely right. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is not really something to get into, but it does seem the way things are going, heck the principle reason why I, despite knowing grade two braille don't own a braille display is due to the extreme cost and the fact that such a thing would be a luxury, not a necessity. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Charles: In the words of the Borg, braille is irrelevant. Lol! Seriously, though, you have a point. If the technology fails a person who was totally dependent on it would be sunk. However, using braille is still none-the-less an impractical method of reading and writing, because it is impossible to store braille books, notes, or documents of any kind in a standard mid sized apartment. I remember several years ago I had a complete bible in braille. It was 30 very large volumes in braille that seemed to weigh a ton each. The entire book took up the entire top shelf of a very large bookcase. Now, a standard print bible is large, but can fit nicely on a bookcase, on someone's coffee table, end table, and there are of course even small print versions compact enough to fit in a persons coat pocket. You can not do that with braille, but you can do it with electronic formats like text, epub, html, or whatever. I recognize you are a fan of braille, and I won't put you down for making that choice. I will, however, question how much you have considered it from a practicality point of view. It is extremely expensive to braille documentation, let alone a book as big as the bible, and even when a person makes that book they need something like a small warehouse to store it because it takes a lot of room to store complete braille books. To give you another example right now I have about 305 Star Wars books in epub format. I can fit the entire collection on a DVD, put it in my computer, and read them in Mozilla Firefox using the epub add-on. It is both very portable and the cost per book was actually quite inexpensive for me since buying electronic books is less than the cost of a paperback or hardback book in print. Now, let's assume I wanted to buy that entire collection in braille. The cost of all 305 books would probably be measured in the thousands. The cost of the braille paper, the binders, etc alone would make it more expensive to produce let alone labor costs. Once I purchased all 305 books I would still need a room to store them in. Since I live in a small apartment I would simply have nowhere to put all those braille books. So I have to question how practical braille is in today's society where technology appears to me to have a lot more advantages over braille both in terms of cost as well as the ability to store as much documentation as I want. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Become dependent on technology. Technology fails. You're sunk. Nobody or nothing does your reading for you. Use braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Charles: There is a big difference between print and braille. Print doesn't require nearly as much money to produce or take up much space to store. I use to have a bookcase in my bedroom with a number of print books I had picked up here and there to scan. I don't remember exactly how many books I had, but at least a hundred to be sure. Thing is I could easily fit the entire collection on a standard sized bookcase. Many of the books were paperbacks that were purchased for $6.00 or less. So print is obviously inexpensive and does not take up much room. If I were to have that exact same collection in braille how much would it cost? Could I put all 100 books on a standard sized bookcase? Could I just walk into Barns and Nobel or Walden's Books and buy it? Of course, the answer is no to all of the above. Print is obviously more practical than braille, and that is why it still has a use for the average Joe and Jane out there. Braille is to say the least a major inconvenience because it costs more to produce and requires a lot more space to store. Sure, it is more handy in a power outage or something like that for a blind user, but seriously how often does that happen? Someone who depends a lot on technology usually has backup sources of power. A person can buy an inexpensive battery backup system such as a power block which can run laptops, tablets, whatever for many hours in the case of a power outage. I could see if the power was out for several days, maybe even a couple of weeks power being a problem, but in most cases power outages are only for a few hours. Most electronics are able to handle that with no problem. My Toshiba has a five hour battery which would cover most average power outages alone. However, I do have an extra battery that would give me an additional five hours of power. I also have a battery backup for all my computer equipment and long as I wasn't running a lot of stuff on it could get another four hours or so out of it. That's a backup of about 14 hours and frankly should be more than enough for the average power outage. Anything more serious than that would not be good, but would likely be a fairly big emergency for everyone not just the blind guy. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Print should also go by the wayside, being replaced by technology, putting us all equal. It'll never happen, and I hope that the value of braille is realized. If the batteries of your technology go dead during a power outage, there goes your accessibility. No power is required to do your own reading. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Fw: Quality online games for the visually impaired - help us spread the word
Wow. I have not heard anything out of rs though they really have not released any standalone since shoot da me. And that game was not that good. Their online client is what gets the most attention though I seem to like the quentin c gameroom more though thats just me. Not much has been from them for a while. Well its good they are oticed. At 04:11 AM 12/12/2013, you wrote: received the below today, and thought it would be more at home here than to the club it was addressed to originally. Simon - Original Message - From: Robin Armit To: goshawk_on_horseb...@fastmail.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:01 PM Subject: Quality online games for the visually impaired - help us spread the word Hi londonsportsclubfortheblind.org.uk, My name is Robin Armit I am the Marketing Manager at Which Bingo UK. I am contacting you today to ask for your assistance in spreading the word about http://rsgames.org/, a group of volunteers that specialise in developing free games and products for the blind and visually impaired. One such game is a bingo game where players can enjoy the fun of online bingo, and chat to fellow players. You can read our review about this game here: http://www.whichbingo.co.uk/bingo-blog/2013/12/11/online-bingo-for-the-blind/ We believe that RS Games has great potential for producing quality free games for visually impaired people. We hope that you might help disseminate our article amongst your website visitors, so that others might become aware of these games. Please feel free to link to our article, and share it on your Twitter or Facebook accounts - let us know if you do decide to do this. If you would like more information about this article, feel free to contact me via this e-mail address or by telephone +44 (0)113 393 0500. I look forward to hearing from you. Kind regards, Robin Armit Marketing Manager Which Bingo UK --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Fw: Quality online games for the visually impaired -help us spread the word
sertainly does simon. I had no idea that rs was doing this or was getting interest even if it was to a not really correct place it can still be counted as interest. and any interest is still a point in the right direction. At 04:27 AM 12/12/2013, you wrote: we are not recommending them, as I pointed out to the sender of the article, that the whole point of a VI sports club is to get blind/visually impaired people out and doing the physically active club things, but felt that the article would have a place on this list. Simon - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: goshawk on horseback goshawk_on_horseb...@fastmail.co.uk; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Fw: Quality online games for the visually impaired -help us spread the word Thanks for letting us know. I'll post a link to the article on Rs games page, since I beet they'd be interested to know that sports clubs are recommending their games. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: goshawk on horseback goshawk_on_horseb...@fastmail.co.uk To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:11 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Fw: Quality online games for the visually impaired -help us spread the word received the below today, and thought it would be more at home here than to the club it was addressed to originally. Simon - Original Message - From: Robin Armit To: goshawk_on_horseb...@fastmail.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:01 PM Subject: Quality online games for the visually impaired - help us spread the word Hi londonsportsclubfortheblind.org.uk, My name is Robin Armit I am the Marketing Manager at Which Bingo UK. I am contacting you today to ask for your assistance in spreading the word about http://rsgames.org/, a group of volunteers that specialise in developing free games and products for the blind and visually impaired. One such game is a bingo game where players can enjoy the fun of online bingo, and chat to fellow players. You can read our review about this game here: http://www.whichbingo.co.uk/bingo-blog/2013/12/11/online-bingo-for-the-blind/ We believe that RS Games has great potential for producing quality free games for visually impaired people. We hope that you might help disseminate our article amongst your website visitors, so that others might become aware of these games. Please feel free to link to our article, and share it on your Twitter or Facebook accounts - let us know if you do decide to do this. If you would like more information about this article, feel free to contact me via this e-mail address or by telephone +44 (0)113 393 0500. I look forward to hearing from you. Kind regards, Robin Armit Marketing Manager Which Bingo UK --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] game availability and popularity - Re: New Game Controller for Pc
Probably, but there is so much drive there charles. There is still drive to get high end cpus, cards, and other things. People that are djs on my midi and game station I listen to are still inthralled in display cards, trying to get the best and meanest without burning their systems to molten slag. Especially those consumers that have the cash to buy the meanest thats likely not to change for some time to come if ever. There is still the wow factor in the latest and greatest. The other past time the big companies are enguaged in for the most part is punching the crap out ofeachother and kicking eachother in the nuts. suing each other, buying each other out and fighting eachother. That needs a lot of cash and I don't think they will ever stop either. Its probably why they are in that state right about now. Consumers are less of a threat than another big company is to another. Companies can fight over years and years if they have the power to do so so thats the point I guess. With the smaller to medium companies at least till they get really big its not a problem and for the indipendants it vertually does not exist. At 06:04 AM 12/12/2013, you wrote: With all the competition, and due to the fact that the big companies are focusing on graphical effects rather than actual game content, won't they eventually bite the dust if gamers realize these facts? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:28 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New Game Controller for Pc Hi Shaun: Well, yes and no. If you are talking about PC games produced by big name studios you are right. There is a lot less of those these days because all the major big name studios are almost exclusively developing for XBox, Play Station, or Wii;. However, there is a lot more games for the PC than you might think. First of all the method of buying and selling them has drastically changed over the last decade. Back in the 90's if a company had a big name game like Quake, Doom, Civilization, etc you went to your local computer or gaming store and purchased it on CD. Now days, the majority of game sales are done online through services like Steam. You can now pay for the game online and download it straight to your PC without having to go out and purchase it on physical media like CD or DVD. This has drastically changed the way game developers do business with PC gamers. Since most PC gaming is either online based or is available through the Internet there are hundreds if not thousands of amateur independent game developers who are selling games online through Steam and other services. Big name corporations simply have no desire to compete with all the competition out there and focus on the major gaming consoles and have left the PC gaming to small independent studios. That is why in terms of PC gaming you won't find much in retail stores like Walmart, Best Buy, K-Mart, etc but if you go online you will find hundreds of new titles for the PC produced by independent developers. One thing I have noticed in modern PC games verses big name mainstream titles for consoles is their surprising simplicity. What I mean by that is if you look at where the big mainstream companies are heading they are getting more and more complicated all the time, lack depth, and overwhelmingly focus on pushing the graphics technology to its fullest. The independent PC developers tend to be focused on small but simple games like what we had in the 80's and 90's with better graphics and sounds. In short, they are more interested in the actual game play than obsessing over graphics, sounds, and so on. To give you an example one game I heard of recently is called Jewels or something like that. Basically, there are Jewels falling down out of the sky and you have to quickly move around the game collecting them, or so I have been told. This sounds like something straight out of the Atari days, but obviously the graphics and sounds are way better. Never-the-less the game is getting good reviews and HP and other PC manufacturers are shipping demos of it on their laptops as part of their trial software. Another game that has gotten some attention of late is called 3D Mahjong or something like that. Unlike classic Mahjong instead of tiles you have square blocks and you have to spin the blocks around and fit them together into a 3d puzzle. It is obviously more difficult than classic Mahjong, but its simply a case of taking a very old idea and making it better without overly complicating the game. The point I am getting at here is that PC games do exist, there are more than ever, but they aren't necessarily available through your local store. If you want them you need to go online to Steam and other places where they are sold. The days of buying a game
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Charles: Personally, I think we are running into one of those generation issues. It is clear to me you and I won't agree on this topic despite discussions of cost of braille, how much space it takes, or any other such limitation I personally have with braille. The reason many professionals feel learning braille when computers and other devices have screen readers or similar voice output is that the technology is more beneficial and more useful than is braille in today's society. Let me give you a few examples. When I was in grade school, just losing my sight, I started learning braille. Now, obviously when I did my home work I had to write it down on a ten ton braille writer, that was very heavy to carry back and forth to school, and when I got my homework done I turned it into my teacher. She then took my brailed homework, handed it to the VI teacher who would read the braille, write down the answers onto a print sheet of paper, stapled it to my braille homework, and gave it back to the regular teacher. A lot of unnecessary work involved in converting my braille homework into print when the technology exists to skip that step completely. Several years later when I went to high school I decided to attend a regular high school with no VI teachers, no braille books, and it was all made possible through technology. We had a computer in the computer lab with a computer running Jaws for Dos, Jaws for Windows, and I believe Openbook 2.0. Anyway, I was able to scan and read the print homework the teachers handed out with a standard flatbed scanner and Openbook. I was able to write down my answers in Word Perfect, and print out my answers on a standard printer and turn it in the same day or next morning. It was more effective and more efficient to rely on my computer technology than it was to use braille. Now days I still rely on my technology and hardly ever have a need for braille. I carry around with me a Toshiba laptop, that weighs about 3 pounds, and certainly is a lot less heavy as a braille writer. It has five hours on a standard charge, and I usually have an extra battery in my case for longer trips giving me upwards of ten hours of battery life. I can use it for writing down notes, shopping lists, reading books in electronic formats, and so forth. I am presently looking into purchasing an iPhone or iPad to be my next generation portable device. I have yet to encounter someone who can prove to me that braille would improve my quality of life in any measurable way. So if you believe braille is better I'd like to here your opinions on how and in what way I can do better with braille what I am doing with technology. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: That's why I still say that hardcopy braille is the best solution. You read it yourself with no special equipment. Most blind people do, or should learn to, read braille, just as most sighted people must learn to read print. If health issues prevent you from independently reading braille, that's another matter. Maybe an HTML document should also be provided. Most of the problem that blind people don't read braille is the attitude of professionals who say, and I have personally heard them say this, Why should they learn braille when computers have screen readers? I ask them, How about doing away with printed material altogether, and provide everyone, sighted or blind, with a screen reader? If sighted students are required to learn to read, why aren't blind students? They don't have an answer. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Some practical questions reguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Kara. Fair enough and I appreciate the appology. I should have some access news about another game on friday which came from a discussion with an Indi developer however he himself has asked me to not jump the gun since he wants to give me some more information. I do take your point about negativity and access, so in light of that I'll share a recent experience I had which was extremely! positive. One thing I have noticed is that certain Muslims have a real issue with Guide dogs on religious grounds. While this is by no means universal, indeed most Muslims I encounter have no problem at all, (heck the shop where I regularly buy milk and other necessities a couple of times a week is owned by a Muslim chap), whe it comes up it can cause quite a lot of trouble with plane access. My mum for example during a visit to London was told in a shop in London to leave. When she tried to point out that access for guide dogs was part of British Law and showed her certificate, the shop keeperr was adamant that this did not matter, that it was part of his religion to not allow dogs, that dogs were dirty. He was not offensive or threatening, but he was nevertheless absolutely adamant that my mum was not permitted in his shop, a general supermarkit. Then she had a similar experience with a taxi driver. since this is by no means universal and since I know for certain there are Muslim guide dog owners, (indeed there might well be some on this list), I decided to investigate the situation and phoned the British counsel on Sharia islamic Law. The counsel were absolutely fantastic to deal with. It turns out (and any Muslims on list feel free to correct me), that while there is indeed a rule in the Koran about dogs being unclean, there is at the same time an allowance made for dogs as working animals. Thus sheep dogs, guard dogs or indeed guide dogs are quite okay under Muslim religious law, indeed the man I spoke to at the counsel accused those Muslims who'd been hostile to access with a guide dog of ignorance of Islamic doctrin, as well as being in the wrong from a muslim perspective for going against British law. They then put me in touch with one of their top experts in Islamic law, who wrote me a note sighting the correct bits of the Koran with his own cridentials as an Islamic scholer that I can show if the situation comes up again, and stated if I told other guide dog users he and the counsel would be willing to write similar information, indeed I suggested to the Guide Dogs association that something of the sort be included in the usual small card about the legal permission of guide dogs which I, and other guide dog owners in Britain usually carry around. This I was really pleased about, indeed as I said I was most impressed with the Sharia counsel's attitude, particularly since I did wonder, with this being a matter of religious doctrin just how far I'd get with this. So, there is one example of a recent positive occasion of access advocacy, just to prove that not everything is so grim :D. Of course, it all comes down to people and how reasonable people are prepared to be. Beware the Grue! DArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I think the best example of braille size was my schools copy of the pocket dictionary in braille. Bare in mind the phrase pocket dictionary a book which all the other kids doing english were lent a copy of and which was, as the name implies pocket sized. The braille version was 18 volumes, each of which was slightly larger in size than an A 4 sheet of print paper, with ahrd bindings and a good three or four inches thick! (they were around 80 braille pages each). I think the only way that could be a pocket dictionary is for the Big friendly giant! :D. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Tom. This is why I said braille display technology needs to catch up, in both cost and utility, since at the moment speech alternatives are just proving both cheaper and equally as functional. Up until the penfriend I'd have still said braille was absolutely necessary for labels on things, now that is not the case, indeed from a purely practical matter it's actually much easier to penfriend label stuff than it is to do in braille since you don't need half the space, can use a sticker approximately the size of a keybaord key which can hold all the information you want, and don't have to muck about doing cut outs of labels. Getting back to games, you could even theoretically use penfriend labels on cards or on a board, since the penfriend itself has a headphone socket albeit this would still probably be a trifle tortuous and would be a trade off between providing all the information on the label, (it'd be very easy to say reccord the hole text of a game of life square for example), and having instant access to a short note by finger rather than needing to muck about pointing a sensor. Of course, there are specialized uses for braille, I remember for example you mentioning reading braille stories to your son, not to mention the needs of deaf/blind people, but this is just another reason for braille to progress since if the majority of the uses of braille are superseeded by easy, lower cost alternatives, then braille will go the same way as mourse code, stenography, line type setting, ie, be reduced just to one or two specialist uses. Personally I'd love to see full screen tactile and braille displays, a thing we do have the technology and expertees for, but which, though it's been on the cards for at least the last 15 years nobody seems to have actually bothered developing into a serious peice of hardware, indeed braille display and printing technology hasn't moved on since the mid 90's. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a braille hard copy of any kind of documents. I only use electronic braille. Now as a professional musician and music teacher I can say that no matter what people say, blind people who want to seriously learn music specially about classic pieces they will always need to learn braille music and who ever says the opposite either is not knowledgable enough or is not serious. It's true than in letters braille can be replaced but in music, it can not. So braille is there for a longtime the point is that the way which we are using is developping. Cheers, Jorge Em 12/12/2013 13:34, dark escreveu: I think the best example of braille size was my schools copy of the pocket dictionary in braille. Bare in mind the phrase pocket dictionary a book which all the other kids doing english were lent a copy of and which was, as the name implies pocket sized. The braille version was 18 volumes, each of which was slightly larger in size than an A 4 sheet of print paper, with ahrd bindings and a good three or four inches thick! (they were around 80 braille pages each). I think the only way that could be a pocket dictionary is for the Big friendly giant! :D. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Este email está liivre de vírus e malware porque a proteção avast! Antivirus está ativa. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Civilization games on PC or iPhone
It is a huge flaw if you want to be able to play with friends and family lol. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Civilization games on PC or iPhone Games for the blind do not need graphics, so that is not a flaw, in my opinion. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Mohsin Ali sma...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Civilization games on PC or iPhone Hi All! ! first of all... my statement was not meant to be an offense towards the individual programmers. I appologize if it did sound like that. now to Dark, I must admit that I have not played most of the above mentioned games but have played the games like CastAways and TimeOfConflict. Also, being lately blind, I have played the games like AgeOfEmpires (versions 2 and 3), RomeTotalWar (version 1 and 2), StrongHold (Crusader and other versions), MidevialTotalWar, StarWars(the clone attack), RealWar, EmpireEarth(versions 2 and 3) and Civilization (V 1-3). now, If you compare the games in audio community to the previously mentioned ones, you'll find the audio games lacking in various places besides graphics. the most prominent flaw I find in Audio games is that, they have only a single goal, there's far less flexibility than those, available for normal users. once again no offense meant to anyone. Iam just giving the facts as I find them. please remember that I greatly appriciate the efforts of the individuals, which are working day and night to make the audio game community better with time. with regards Mohsin On 12/11/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: To be honest Darren I never got Aurora to even a vaguely playable state where I could determine what was or was not accesible in the game, just because the game, the interface, the setup even the documentation were so mind bogglingly complex it was near impossible to tell where to start, especially since the documentation and interface were clearly written for someone who could see the screen. It's likely that Zackery Cline is in the best position to talk about Aurora since he has spent most time with the game and I know has discussed at least some access issues with the developer, though where things are now I don't know. This is one problem of making! a game accessible as opposed to creating one accessible out of the box, especially when dealing with something as usually complex in it's interface as a civilization or colonization style game, one reason why i've never had any success with waring factions. Again though, core exiles rocks for this, and I suspect people will also enjoy Astro galaxy when the access changes are finished, since there the interface is nicely straight forward. beware the Grue! dArk. - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Civilization games on PC or iPhone Hi, Is Aurora accessible yet? -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 11 December 2013 11:43 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Civilization games on PC or iPhone Hi Mohsin. That is simply not true. Dwarf fortress is an entirely independently developed stratogy game which is mind bogglingly complex, unfortunately inaccessible but still proof of what a developer can do. Aurora is a similar one for space colonization. Have you played the audio games Castaways (as close as we've come to a civ game yet), Revelation, Lunimals and time of conflict? All employ many mechanics and principles that could be used to create a civilization game in audio and all were made by one single developer, indeed 3 by Aprone, (I'm still waiting for Castaways Ii). Then there are the browser mmorpgs which, even if they are to my mind spoiled by the pvp element in the vast majority of cases do show many of the mechanics and stratogies which it'd be necessary for a civilization game to have. Games like 1000 Ad, ateraeon space stratogy, Travian, tribal wars, Space oddyssey (which even includes a full technology research system), and warring factions, --- and of course my personal favourite Core exiles which doesn't even have that nasty pvp :D. While we all know that audio games don't have the same
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
agreed. I couldn't store any braille books in my bedsit. Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:21 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: In the words of the Borg, braille is irrelevant. Lol! Seriously, though, you have a point. If the technology fails a person who was totally dependent on it would be sunk. However, using braille is still none-the-less an impractical method of reading and writing, because it is impossible to store braille books, notes, or documents of any kind in a standard mid sized apartment. I remember several years ago I had a complete bible in braille. It was 30 very large volumes in braille that seemed to weigh a ton each. The entire book took up the entire top shelf of a very large bookcase. Now, a standard print bible is large, but can fit nicely on a bookcase, on someone's coffee table, end table, and there are of course even small print versions compact enough to fit in a persons coat pocket. You can not do that with braille, but you can do it with electronic formats like text, epub, html, or whatever. I recognize you are a fan of braille, and I won't put you down for making that choice. I will, however, question how much you have considered it from a practicality point of view. It is extremely expensive to braille documentation, let alone a book as big as the bible, and even when a person makes that book they need something like a small warehouse to store it because it takes a lot of room to store complete braille books. To give you another example right now I have about 305 Star Wars books in epub format. I can fit the entire collection on a DVD, put it in my computer, and read them in Mozilla Firefox using the epub add-on. It is both very portable and the cost per book was actually quite inexpensive for me since buying electronic books is less than the cost of a paperback or hardback book in print. Now, let's assume I wanted to buy that entire collection in braille. The cost of all 305 books would probably be measured in the thousands. The cost of the braille paper, the binders, etc alone would make it more expensive to produce let alone labor costs. Once I purchased all 305 books I would still need a room to store them in. Since I live in a small apartment I would simply have nowhere to put all those braille books. So I have to question how practical braille is in today's society where technology appears to me to have a lot more advantages over braille both in terms of cost as well as the ability to store as much documentation as I want. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Become dependent on technology. Technology fails. You're sunk. Nobody or nothing does your reading for you. Use braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] accessibility for the deaf/blind
You can use an iPhone with a Bluetooth braille display, but they sure are bulkier and more expensive than your fingers. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:33 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] accessibility for the deaf/blind Hi Charles: Speech output no, but we would assume a deaf-blind user would have equipment better suited to his or her disability. As you know there are plenty of notetakers out there with braille displays that can browse the web, read text documents, etc so your point does not hold any water as far as I am concerned. You or I might use a device with speech but a deaf-blind user would still use a device with a braille display. I haven't looked into braille options for iOS, but I do know Android has a program called Brailleback which allows a blind and deaf-blind user to use the device with a braille display via blue tooth. While that seems like a lot of equipment to carry around the point here is a deaf-blind customer would not need a physical hard copy in braille as they probably have equipment suited to reading electronic documents in braille immediately available to them. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Another value of hardcopy braille is that a deaf and blind person can use it. Speech output from a device does them no good. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Dark: My point exactly. Comparing braille to print is clearly unequal as what can be a pocket sized handbook for the sighted person takes several huge volumes in braille for a blind person. What I want as an end user is the same portability, same space requirements, and same ability to look things up as a sighted user when reading some documentation. Braille does not allow me to do that because it usually winds up being impractical for any of those requirements. I know one thing that use to bug the crap out of me when I was younger is I would take a braille textbook home, and I'd get 90% through a reading assignment only for the volume to run out, and I'd need the next volume. Well, if the next volume is at school I end up having to not complete the assignment on account the blasted book was incomplete. The only way to prevent that from happening was to go ahead and take the next volume home with me just in case. Never mind the fact braille books are heavy to begin with, but having to carry extra volumes along to class or home was to my way of thinking ridiculous. Of course, one reason braille never caught on with me is for the first few years I was fully sighted. After having learned to learn print, having had the portability that goes along with print reading materials, braille seemed like a pretty poor second. Oh, it worked, but I personally would rather some reading system that is on par with print. At this point do to technology using some portable device like an iPhone or Android phone and a electronic document is really as close as I can get. In ways, it is better than print because we are not dealing with one document but many documents, music, and a bunch of other stuff that comes with a tablet or smartphone. Cheers! On 12/12/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I think the best example of braille size was my schools copy of the pocket dictionary in braille. Bare in mind the phrase pocket dictionary a book which all the other kids doing english were lent a copy of and which was, as the name implies pocket sized. The braille version was 18 volumes, each of which was slightly larger in size than an A 4 sheet of print paper, with ahrd bindings and a good three or four inches thick! (they were around 80 braille pages each). I think the only way that could be a pocket dictionary is for the Big friendly giant! :D. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] accessibility for the deaf/blind
The least expensive and most portable Bluetooth braille display I am aware of is from Freedom Scientific. The Focus 14 is a 14-cell braille display that can just about fit into a shirt pocket. It will connect to an iPhone 5 or higher. It will work using either Bluetooth or USB 2. The cost is $1,295, not including that darned SMA (service maintenance agreement) of $250. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] accessibility for the deaf/blind Hi Charles: No one I know of, but that would depend on if they carry a notetaker like a Braille Note etc along with them in a backpack. Back in the day I always use to take my Braille N' Speak with me every where I went, and could look up notes, shopping lists, and even had custom menus I copied down from the print menus so I would have a copy to look at. It is possible some deaf-blind customers may choose to do something similar and have a notetaker and braille display on hand just to use their notetaker as a notetaker where a sighted person might keep such information on their phone or tablet. I don't doubt that carrying a braille display around is a major inconvenience, but we are talking about an extra disability that you or I don't have. A deaf-blind person can't simply pick up an iPhone, Android phone, and use it with speech as you or I could. So that person probably needs a braille display close at hand in order to operate any number of electronic devices a blind person would otherwise use with speech output. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: How many people carry a braille display with them to a restaurant? They are very expensive, as you know. You are born with your fingers. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
It's a real shame that you don't use braille more often. Why use a computer for a game of solitaire when brailled cards are just as good if not better? Cards give a card game a totally different atmosphere. Without them, it's just a computer game. No feel to it whatsoever. I am fortunate enough to have a Bluetooth 40-cell braille display, and I use it to read NLS books on my iPhone. Someone sends me word scramble puzzles through Email that I solve with the braille rather than with speech. No need to arrow around, just read the jumbled word and unscramble it. To me, braille is a method for which such puzzles are tailor made. Speech just flat doesn't cut it. Why use an electronic device to label when braille works better? You don't need to use a device to read your labels when you've got perfectly good fingers. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Dark: A full sized braille display, as in being able to see an entire page of text, would be heaven. As it is the best we can do is an 80 cell display which shows one line of text at a time, and while useful its not as detailed as I would prefer. I also don't have $5,000 to spend on a new display so rarely use braille on a day to day basis. The most I use braille for is labeling the buttons on the microwave, perhaps playing a hand of Solitaire with a braille deck of cards, or labeling DVD movies or something. Otherwise I have little use for braille. Even the things I use braille for could be replaced by something else. For example, while I have braille on my microwave I could just mark each button with some raised dots to indicate the position of each button. For labeling DVD cases I could get something like your penfriend which would be an audible label rather than a braille one. For Solitaire I can play GMA Solitaire or something else like that. So braille has an extremely low use in my own life since graduation. Cheers! On 12/11/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I could see a braille revival if the technology to produce it ever catches up with speech in cost and ease of use, since imagine all the possibilities of a full sized tactile screen with brailled text, but failing such a technological and economic development your likely right. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is not really something to get into, but it does seem the way things are going, heck the principle reason why I, despite knowing grade two braille don't own a braille display is due to the extreme cost and the fact that such a thing would be a luxury, not a necessity. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
You must be assimilated. Resistance is futile!! Cost and space are major concerns. But for actually reading, braille, whether hardcopy or refreshable device, is the preferred method of reading for me. I have a Pac Mate with a braille display on it. Braille books in .brf format on a flash card can be accessed. I also have the BARD app on my iPhone, and braille books from the NLS can be accessed using my 40-cell Bluetooth braille display. There are times and situations where hardcopy braille is more to my liking, though, such as during power outages when battery life can be a precious commodity. I've got the full series of the Harry Potter books in soft cover braille that takes up 3 shelves of a small book shelf for such occasions. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: In the words of the Borg, braille is irrelevant. Lol! Seriously, though, you have a point. If the technology fails a person who was totally dependent on it would be sunk. However, using braille is still none-the-less an impractical method of reading and writing, because it is impossible to store braille books, notes, or documents of any kind in a standard mid sized apartment. I remember several years ago I had a complete bible in braille. It was 30 very large volumes in braille that seemed to weigh a ton each. The entire book took up the entire top shelf of a very large bookcase. Now, a standard print bible is large, but can fit nicely on a bookcase, on someone's coffee table, end table, and there are of course even small print versions compact enough to fit in a persons coat pocket. You can not do that with braille, but you can do it with electronic formats like text, epub, html, or whatever. I recognize you are a fan of braille, and I won't put you down for making that choice. I will, however, question how much you have considered it from a practicality point of view. It is extremely expensive to braille documentation, let alone a book as big as the bible, and even when a person makes that book they need something like a small warehouse to store it because it takes a lot of room to store complete braille books. To give you another example right now I have about 305 Star Wars books in epub format. I can fit the entire collection on a DVD, put it in my computer, and read them in Mozilla Firefox using the epub add-on. It is both very portable and the cost per book was actually quite inexpensive for me since buying electronic books is less than the cost of a paperback or hardback book in print. Now, let's assume I wanted to buy that entire collection in braille. The cost of all 305 books would probably be measured in the thousands. The cost of the braille paper, the binders, etc alone would make it more expensive to produce let alone labor costs. Once I purchased all 305 books I would still need a room to store them in. Since I live in a small apartment I would simply have nowhere to put all those braille books. So I have to question how practical braille is in today's society where technology appears to me to have a lot more advantages over braille both in terms of cost as well as the ability to store as much documentation as I want. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Become dependent on technology. Technology fails. You're sunk. Nobody or nothing does your reading for you. Use braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Jorge: I think you have hit upon the one issue that we can agree upon. While braille use is gradually being replaced by other technical alternatives it is still the only way to truly pass on literacy to a blind person. I know that on this and other blind related list the literacy of the blind list members has been going way down over the last few years. Poor spelling, poor grammar, and even lack of proper punctuation is quite common on blind related lists. One reason for this could be the trend for people to rely on technical gadgets rather than sitting down reading a book in braille or similar. Therefore at a minimum they aren't getting the constant reinforcement of spelling, grammar, and punctuation a sighted user would get on a daily basis. All they get is e-mails, books, and other documents read to them and they are losing basic literacy as a result. Another possible reason is blind people simply don't care. I know I am on a number of sighted mailing lists and most people try to proofread their e-mails so it is clear and not full of errors. The blind technology related lists seem to be the opposite. It is almost like they can't see it, most of the people are blind on the list can't see it, so nobody cares. Either way, there is no getting around the fact if e-mails are to go buy a lot of blind list members are incompetent when it comes to general literacy. Reading braille would definitely help with that, but I think we have turned a corner where most people who don't have to use it won't. About braille and music I agree with you. I am a musician myself, and why I like playing some things by ear it is nice to be able to read the music and make sure you are doing it right than to guess and guess wrong. Plus with classical music etc it is quite a bit more involved than say rock, country, or wrap. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com wrote: I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a braille hard copy of any kind of documents. I only use electronic braille. Now as a professional musician and music teacher I can say that no matter what people say, blind people who want to seriously learn music specially about classic pieces they will always need to learn braille music and who ever says the opposite either is not knowledgable enough or is not serious. It's true than in letters braille can be replaced but in music, it can not. So braille is there for a longtime the point is that the way which we are using is developping. Cheers, Jorge --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
If this becomes true, the skill of reading will be lost. All blind people will either be read to by a person or a machine. That is an unthinkable shame. Not even learning to read will affect other skills such as spelling, writing, and others. Filling out applications for jobs will be far more difficult as will getting and retaining a job if you cannot read. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi George. As a professional musician and singer myself I personally disagree entirely about braille music, but that is not an arguement to have here. Regarding braille display and writing, given the choice between a synth voice are a braille display, for speed and convenience I'd probably read with a synth, however for atmosphere and flow I would probably read in braille, (though I'd take an actual human voice reading over both and it is possible synths might crack the intonation barrier in the future). However, the problem is, despite any bennifits I might perceive in braille, it is dam expensive! my Iphone cost me nothing over what it would cost with a sighted user, I could similarly use nvda on a pc, heck Supernova is coming down in price for this reason. With a braille display you still! need the software to begin with before you've even bought the itme. Were a braille display 100 usd, maybe even 200I'd considder getting one, but the plane and symple truth is that 1000 usd is a heck of a lot of money for access to reading text one line at a time. We can debate the pros and cons of the process of reading braille until the cows come home, but the ultimate question is one of basic economiccs. if something costs lots of money and something which can provide for most people an acquivolent service costs less, what are people going to buy? This is why the technology has to improve and be updated if braille is going to stick around in any major capacity in the future, indeed myself I'm fairly certain that unless a workable interface is developed in the next 5-10 years, in 20 years time nobody newly blind will be learning braille at all which means in 50 years it will die out completely. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I never could figure out how to read brailled sheet music, so just play by fingers, as playing a guitar by ear is not easy. Fingers are more easily used to make chords. (grin) The points on spelling, grammar, and punctuation are very good reasons why braille is superior to speech. However, if people listen to their messages before sending, they should notice a lack of punctuation. The screen never pauses where punctuation would direct it to. Horribly mispronounced words are usually, but not always, due to misspellings. Some blind people don't care whether they type to, two, or too, because it doesn't matter to them. They all sound OK, and they may not even know that there is a difference. This is partly due to a lack of education, and partly due to no immediate feedback as to which word is which. Braille will provide that feedback. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Jorge: I think you have hit upon the one issue that we can agree upon. While braille use is gradually being replaced by other technical alternatives it is still the only way to truly pass on literacy to a blind person. I know that on this and other blind related list the literacy of the blind list members has been going way down over the last few years. Poor spelling, poor grammar, and even lack of proper punctuation is quite common on blind related lists. One reason for this could be the trend for people to rely on technical gadgets rather than sitting down reading a book in braille or similar. Therefore at a minimum they aren't getting the constant reinforcement of spelling, grammar, and punctuation a sighted user would get on a daily basis. All they get is e-mails, books, and other documents read to them and they are losing basic literacy as a result. Another possible reason is blind people simply don't care. I know I am on a number of sighted mailing lists and most people try to proofread their e-mails so it is clear and not full of errors. The blind technology related lists seem to be the opposite. It is almost like they can't see it, most of the people are blind on the list can't see it, so nobody cares. Either way, there is no getting around the fact if e-mails are to go buy a lot of blind list members are incompetent when it comes to general literacy. Reading braille would definitely help with that, but I think we have turned a corner where most people who don't have to use it won't. About braille and music I agree with you. I am a musician myself, and why I like playing some things by ear it is nice to be able to read the music and make sure you are doing it right than to guess and guess wrong. Plus with classical music etc it is quite a bit more involved than say rock, country, or wrap. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com wrote: I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a braille hard
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi George. As a professional musician and singer myself I personally disagree entirely about braille music, but that is not an arguement to have here. Regarding braille display and writing, given the choice between a synth voice are a braille display, for speed and convenience I'd probably read with a synth, however for atmosphere and flow I would probably read in braille, (though I'd take an actual human voice reading over both and it is possible synths might crack the intonation barrier in the future). However, the problem is, despite any bennifits I might perceive in braille, it is dam expensive! my Iphone cost me nothing over what it would cost with a sighted user, I could similarly use nvda on a pc, heck Supernova is coming down in price for this reason. With a braille display you still! need the software to begin with before you've even bought the itme. Were a braille display 100 usd, maybe even 200I'd considder getting one, but the plane and symple truth is that 1000 usd is a heck of a lot of money for access to reading text one line at a time. We can debate the pros and cons of the process of reading braille until the cows come home, but the ultimate question is one of basic economiccs. if something costs lots of money and something which can provide for most people an acquivolent service costs less, what are people going to buy? This is why the technology has to improve and be updated if braille is going to stick around in any major capacity in the future, indeed myself I'm fairly certain that unless a workable interface is developed in the next 5-10 years, in 20 years time nobody newly blind will be learning braille at all which means in 50 years it will die out completely. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
What is a bedsit? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: amanda burt aburt...@btinternet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game agreed. I couldn't store any braille books in my bedsit. Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:21 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: In the words of the Borg, braille is irrelevant. Lol! Seriously, though, you have a point. If the technology fails a person who was totally dependent on it would be sunk. However, using braille is still none-the-less an impractical method of reading and writing, because it is impossible to store braille books, notes, or documents of any kind in a standard mid sized apartment. I remember several years ago I had a complete bible in braille. It was 30 very large volumes in braille that seemed to weigh a ton each. The entire book took up the entire top shelf of a very large bookcase. Now, a standard print bible is large, but can fit nicely on a bookcase, on someone's coffee table, end table, and there are of course even small print versions compact enough to fit in a persons coat pocket. You can not do that with braille, but you can do it with electronic formats like text, epub, html, or whatever. I recognize you are a fan of braille, and I won't put you down for making that choice. I will, however, question how much you have considered it from a practicality point of view. It is extremely expensive to braille documentation, let alone a book as big as the bible, and even when a person makes that book they need something like a small warehouse to store it because it takes a lot of room to store complete braille books. To give you another example right now I have about 305 Star Wars books in epub format. I can fit the entire collection on a DVD, put it in my computer, and read them in Mozilla Firefox using the epub add-on. It is both very portable and the cost per book was actually quite inexpensive for me since buying electronic books is less than the cost of a paperback or hardback book in print. Now, let's assume I wanted to buy that entire collection in braille. The cost of all 305 books would probably be measured in the thousands. The cost of the braille paper, the binders, etc alone would make it more expensive to produce let alone labor costs. Once I purchased all 305 books I would still need a room to store them in. Since I live in a small apartment I would simply have nowhere to put all those braille books. So I have to question how practical braille is in today's society where technology appears to me to have a lot more advantages over braille both in terms of cost as well as the ability to store as much documentation as I want. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Become dependent on technology. Technology fails. You're sunk. Nobody or nothing does your reading for you. Use braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Charles: I have a feeling this is something we won't agree on, but let us take a different tact here. What is it about braille that makes it so much better than the alternatives? Let us start with your first example. What is it about playing with a physical deck of cards when playing Solitaire that is so much better than an electronic version of Solitaire? In my opinion the experience is worse. When trying to shuffle the cards I frequently drop them, don't get them shuffled right, or I have them laid out on a table and the blasted cards end up getting mixed up when bumping the table and I have to go back and fix the piles. Plus with physical cards the braille tends to wear out after a while and need to be replaced. None of these issues are problems with a computer version of the game. So I would like you to explain what I would get out of a deck of braille cards that I can not get out of a computer game besides the annoyances? In terms of labeling I actually do braille things only because I happen to have the equipment and the means to do it. I have a braille labeling gun which comes in handy for labeling DVDs, music CDS, and other things around the house. If I did not have that label gun I am certain I would use something else like a talking barcode reader or something. I think what it boils down to is I am not attached to braille, never have been, and it doesn't mean anything to me personally. I can use it if it is available, but otherwise I will happily use something else. Someone older who has used braille all their lives probably are less interested in finding a newer way of doing things when what they have works for them personally. So I don't think it is a case of one being better than the other but a matter of preference, but I am interested to know why you are so in favor of braille when it seems to me to be a worse solution than other technical methods of accessing the same info. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: It's a real shame that you don't use braille more often. Why use a computer for a game of solitaire when brailled cards are just as good if not better? Cards give a card game a totally different atmosphere. Without them, it's just a computer game. No feel to it whatsoever. I am fortunate enough to have a Bluetooth 40-cell braille display, and I use it to read NLS books on my iPhone. Someone sends me word scramble puzzles through Email that I solve with the braille rather than with speech. No need to arrow around, just read the jumbled word and unscramble it. To me, braille is a method for which such puzzles are tailor made. Speech just flat doesn't cut it. Why use an electronic device to label when braille works better? You don't need to use a device to read your labels when you've got perfectly good fingers. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi charlse. I'm just wondering about some of these catagorical statements you make. For example Why use a device to read labels when braille works better? how is braille labelling better exactly? Using the pen friend I can record labels as long as I like. if I want a label saying indiana jones and the temple of doom extra documentary and I want to stick it on the little inch square insert by the disk in the main indiana jones box set, well I can do that. I couldn't with braille. I'd neeed to write a label saying ind 2 ext or something like that to fit into that space. I'd have to prat around with a pare of scissors chopping out labels. The penfriend barcode lables are peel off and stick on. why use a device when you can use your fingers? Why use a truck to carry heavy loads around when you can use your back. I'm not anti braille by any means, however Charlse it seems that often your statements about braille are simply catagorical. You think braille is clearly the best option because it is, fullstop, end of story. Well fair enough your entitled to an opinion, however it really isn't helpful to a debate to just throw out catagorical statements like that with no reason behind them. I'm not anti braille by any means, but neither do I believe braille is the best alternative simply because it is. Braille has good and bad points like anything else and if we're going to discuss them I'd prefer a real discussion please. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
The only thing that I disagree with is that you must learn braille music if you are seriously into music. My point of view is not from that of a teacher, but as a person who plays, and used to teach, guitar. I have always played by ear, or someone might show me how to make a certain chord. Then again, my music is not classical, which is more critical. I play most country, and fifties to early seventies rock. I don't think that sheet music is a requirement for the stuff I do. I do consider it a plus, though, and may consider another attempt at learning to read it just to be able to do so if the need arises. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a braille hard copy of any kind of documents. I only use electronic braille. Now as a professional musician and music teacher I can say that no matter what people say, blind people who want to seriously learn music specially about classic pieces they will always need to learn braille music and who ever says the opposite either is not knowledgable enough or is not serious. It's true than in letters braille can be replaced but in music, it can not. So braille is there for a longtime the point is that the way which we are using is developping. Cheers, Jorge Em 12/12/2013 13:34, dark escreveu: I think the best example of braille size was my schools copy of the pocket dictionary in braille. Bare in mind the phrase pocket dictionary a book which all the other kids doing english were lent a copy of and which was, as the name implies pocket sized. The braille version was 18 volumes, each of which was slightly larger in size than an A 4 sheet of print paper, with ahrd bindings and a good three or four inches thick! (they were around 80 braille pages each). I think the only way that could be a pocket dictionary is for the Big friendly giant! :D. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Este email está liivre de vírus e malware porque a proteção avast! Antivirus está ativa. http://www.avast.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Tom. All that is true, indeed I remember in secondary school having regular arguements with the school librarian (rather like Madam pince in Harry potter), who stated that a person could only have 3 books out at a time, irrispective that the three books I wanted out were three volumes of the hobbit, which I wanted to take on holiday with me. I also always found myself braille reading speed really suffered as compared to reading in speech or by a recording, especially with complex and detailed material, heck this was why when I got to university and started studdying philosophy, I never! got any texts brailled and always worked through either a small portable scanner, or a digital recorder and paid reading assistant, indeed during my phd research that became highly necessary. One thing I will say however, is that while reading speed and ability to get basic informational content from braille is much less than speech or audio, for atmosphere and individual comprehention I have always preferd braille over speech. This is why I don't particularly like reading Ebooks and the like with a synth voice if I have a choice, --- -but would be happy doing so in braille. The problem is that with the technology for braille reproduction being the price it is, it's just not practical. If I won the lottery or robbed a bank I might buy a braille display, similarly if I could get one for say 100 or even 200 usd I might, but as it is it's just too much of a luxury, indeed I find myself these days far less aversed to reading in synth voices than i used to be just through necessity of having to do it due to lack of said display. This is again why I'd love to see improvement in braille reproduction, but equally why I'm fairly convinced braille will drop off the map if this doesn't happen. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
There is no way that I would use a Pen Friend to label decks of playing cards or even a simple game of Monopoly. It would take so blasted long to get the necessary info from Monopoly property deeds, the money would have to be heard, the Chance and Community Chest cards would have to be heard. During a game of Pinochle, people would be waiting for me to hear my cards. These are two examples where cards with braille on them would be so much faster and more convenient! Plus, what do you do if your Pen Friend runs out of storage space? The Pen friend is also not random access. You hear the whole message, however lengthy it is. While it is fairly inexpensive, it has drawbacks. For card games, braille on the cards is the way to go. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Tom. This is why I said braille display technology needs to catch up, in both cost and utility, since at the moment speech alternatives are just proving both cheaper and equally as functional. Up until the penfriend I'd have still said braille was absolutely necessary for labels on things, now that is not the case, indeed from a purely practical matter it's actually much easier to penfriend label stuff than it is to do in braille since you don't need half the space, can use a sticker approximately the size of a keybaord key which can hold all the information you want, and don't have to muck about doing cut outs of labels. Getting back to games, you could even theoretically use penfriend labels on cards or on a board, since the penfriend itself has a headphone socket albeit this would still probably be a trifle tortuous and would be a trade off between providing all the information on the label, (it'd be very easy to say reccord the hole text of a game of life square for example), and having instant access to a short note by finger rather than needing to muck about pointing a sensor. Of course, there are specialized uses for braille, I remember for example you mentioning reading braille stories to your son, not to mention the needs of deaf/blind people, but this is just another reason for braille to progress since if the majority of the uses of braille are superseeded by easy, lower cost alternatives, then braille will go the same way as mourse code, stenography, line type setting, ie, be reduced just to one or two specialist uses. Personally I'd love to see full screen tactile and braille displays, a thing we do have the technology and expertees for, but which, though it's been on the cards for at least the last 15 years nobody seems to have actually bothered developing into a serious peice of hardware, indeed braille display and printing technology hasn't moved on since the mid 90's. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi: Lol! Yes, fingers are better than ears when playing guitars and pianos too. Regarding basic proofreading and editing no matter what screen reader certain things should be obvious when a word sounds wrong, it runs on without pausing, etc it is easy enough to find and correct such errors just by using speech alone. I figure most people don't care, and don't bother doing basic proofreading which they can do with any screen reader with or without a spell checker. However, some things I question if it is just a lack of caring or a lack of literacy such as the difference between to, too, and two or where and wear. I see such mistakes often on lists and wonder about the literacy level of the poster sending the post. As you say learning and using braille would help out alot with such mistakes. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I never could figure out how to read brailled sheet music, so just play by fingers, as playing a guitar by ear is not easy. Fingers are more easily used to make chords. (grin) The points on spelling, grammar, and punctuation are very good reasons why braille is superior to speech. However, if people listen to their messages before sending, they should notice a lack of punctuation. The screen never pauses where punctuation would direct it to. Horribly mispronounced words are usually, but not always, due to misspellings. Some blind people don't care whether they type to, two, or too, because it doesn't matter to them. They all sound OK, and they may not even know that there is a difference. This is partly due to a lack of education, and partly due to no immediate feedback as to which word is which. Braille will provide that feedback. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I agree on rereading messages Charlse, however as an interesting point, when you gave the example of 2, to, or too, Realspeak Daniel actually did distinguish between the various formulations quite nicely so that I knew instantly what you have meant. Indeed, I've noticed that the over all spelling feedback of Daniel is better than Orphius was for a lot of words. Of course, I suspect a degree of this, at least as far as reading preferences go, is to do with personal sensory perception. I am synaesthesic, and preimarily work through a translation of sound into colour and sensation. My mum first taught me to read braille through use of phonics, indeed I still have a great love and admiration for the sound of language rather than it's other qualities, I hate for example authors who write characters with unpronounceable names, or arythmic sentence structure. I also have been learning music by ear for years, and am at the point now where I can quite successfully learn an Aria more quickly than a sighted person with written music, indeed when singing on stage in operatic scenes or even in the strictor forms of concerts it's actually a major advantage since everyone else has to put their music down and cope without it. Several times you have talked about doing things by The fingers which likely implies that this is your primary mode of sensory input. You make a distinction between Being read to by a machine or a person and reading yourself in braille a distinction which to me seems meaningless and nonsensical since to me reading is apprehention of the voice and language, the letters are inconsequencial, indeed even when I do read braille myself I am more hearing the words than reading the letters (as well as seeing colours and feeling different sensations but lets not get into synaesthesia now). This sensory distinction occurs with sighted people as well. Some people look at printed letters, others work by the entire page, others work by feelings and sensations, just as some people can skim read a page of printed text rapidly and apprehend it's meaning, others prefer to look carefully through single words. It strikes me that while speech will appeal to people who ignore letters and have a natural propensity to audio, so braille will appeal to people who are more spacially or tactilly inclined. This is of course where having the ability to display and read braille as conveniently as speech would be an advantage since it would allow the choice of preferd methods of reading at different times, as I have said myself, I'd much prefer to read novels in braille (if a human audio wasn't available), for all I'd rather have speech most of the time. The problem however is people don't get the choice of using braille if they wish, since the practical and economic are just too major, and it is those ultimately which will doom braille, not any inherent inferiority in braille method itself. BEware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
To avoid having to have my homework rewritten by someone else so that a teacher could read it, I learned to type. We did not have computers at all for blind people, as I graduated high school in 1972. I grew up using braille, and it is still a big part of what makes life enjoyable, being to do my own reading and not solely relying on technology to do my reading for me. With braille, I determine the inflections and the way that things are read, rather than relying on some form of narration. What you do on a daily basis is best done through the use of computer and technology. I would never want to live without braille in some form, whether it be through the use of hardcopy or a refreshable braille display. It would be like never actually reading a book. Sure, I can listen to books, but there's nothing better to me than actually doing my own reading. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: Personally, I think we are running into one of those generation issues. It is clear to me you and I won't agree on this topic despite discussions of cost of braille, how much space it takes, or any other such limitation I personally have with braille. The reason many professionals feel learning braille when computers and other devices have screen readers or similar voice output is that the technology is more beneficial and more useful than is braille in today's society. Let me give you a few examples. When I was in grade school, just losing my sight, I started learning braille. Now, obviously when I did my home work I had to write it down on a ten ton braille writer, that was very heavy to carry back and forth to school, and when I got my homework done I turned it into my teacher. She then took my brailed homework, handed it to the VI teacher who would read the braille, write down the answers onto a print sheet of paper, stapled it to my braille homework, and gave it back to the regular teacher. A lot of unnecessary work involved in converting my braille homework into print when the technology exists to skip that step completely. Several years later when I went to high school I decided to attend a regular high school with no VI teachers, no braille books, and it was all made possible through technology. We had a computer in the computer lab with a computer running Jaws for Dos, Jaws for Windows, and I believe Openbook 2.0. Anyway, I was able to scan and read the print homework the teachers handed out with a standard flatbed scanner and Openbook. I was able to write down my answers in Word Perfect, and print out my answers on a standard printer and turn it in the same day or next morning. It was more effective and more efficient to rely on my computer technology than it was to use braille. Now days I still rely on my technology and hardly ever have a need for braille. I carry around with me a Toshiba laptop, that weighs about 3 pounds, and certainly is a lot less heavy as a braille writer. It has five hours on a standard charge, and I usually have an extra battery in my case for longer trips giving me upwards of ten hours of battery life. I can use it for writing down notes, shopping lists, reading books in electronic formats, and so forth. I am presently looking into purchasing an iPhone or iPad to be my next generation portable device. I have yet to encounter someone who can prove to me that braille would improve my quality of life in any measurable way. So if you believe braille is better I'd like to here your opinions on how and in what way I can do better with braille what I am doing with technology. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: That's why I still say that hardcopy braille is the best solution. You read it yourself with no special equipment. Most blind people do, or should learn to, read braille, just as most sighted people must learn to read print. If health issues prevent you from independently reading braille, that's another matter. Maybe an HTML document should also be provided. Most of the problem that blind people don't read braille is the attitude of professionals who say, and I have personally heard them say this, Why should they learn braille when computers have screen readers? I ask them, How about doing away with printed material altogether, and provide everyone, sighted or blind, with a screen reader? If sighted students are required to learn to read, why aren't blind students? They don't have an answer. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hmmm, charlse I'm confused. Listening to a long message on the penfriend is just as quick as hearing it spoken, because you mmm, speak it, and with the labels bieng so small who ever said you had to have one entire message per label? My mum once tested this on me when discussing exam provision, whether I needed a braille exam paper producing or whether I could live with the teacher who was invigilating my exam (which I took on my own since I got extra time), just reading it, (the teacher had to be there anyway, so producing the paper was just extra cost to my schools education grant). It took me 40 seconds to read the paragraph in braille, where it took 19 to speak, enough said. Finally, why the hell would I be sticking pen friend labels on an already brailled set of cards or monopoly? that would indeed be a major waste of time. I meant labelling something entirely new, like say a set of custom cards or board squares for a game, (I remember the fun my mum and I had trying to label the video horror board game atmosphere since getting the full text of everything you had to do on each card was just not humanly possible in braille, dam the penfriend would've helped! Lastly, well the penfriend stores things as I believe 32 kbps mp3s, and the version I have has a 5 Gb harddrive, so that's about 5 thousand! minutes of storage space, plus of course the more modern versions have sd card space. I also don't see what is so awkward about the penfriend, i've always found it fine, indeed I use mine every time I want to watch some of my dvds. indeedd, I regularly get a good comparison, since some of my dvds are labeled with braille, but all my more recent ones are labeled with the penfriend, and it's a lot easier when i am watching through startrek voyager to be able to get the full series and disk infok than wwhen i am watching tng where I just have a small note saying Tng x - x and then have to rely on putting the disks back in the right order to get them the right way around (I have to be dam careful not to drop them). Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] accessibility for the deaf/blind
Hi Charles: Yeah, I know. Those things are not cheap, but the Focus 14 is portable. I would imagine if a person were deaf-blind and needed one they would have one to go along with their iPhone etc as cost not with standing they couldn't rely on speech. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: The least expensive and most portable Bluetooth braille display I am aware of is from Freedom Scientific. The Focus 14 is a 14-cell braille display that can just about fit into a shirt pocket. It will connect to an iPhone 5 or higher. It will work using either Bluetooth or USB 2. The cost is $1,295, not including that darned SMA (service maintenance agreement) of $250. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I've noticed that. Maybe that's partly why so may people use that netspeak nonsense instead of good, plain English. As for Braille music I never could get the hang of that LOL. NOr was I really able to make sense of it the one time I tried to read one of those Braille maps that Shades of Doom can generate. Of course I've never been good at reading maps period let alone translating that into an actual route. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:22 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Jorge: I think you have hit upon the one issue that we can agree upon. While braille use is gradually being replaced by other technical alternatives it is still the only way to truly pass on literacy to a blind person. I know that on this and other blind related list the literacy of the blind list members has been going way down over the last few years. Poor spelling, poor grammar, and even lack of proper punctuation is quite common on blind related lists. One reason for this could be the trend for people to rely on technical gadgets rather than sitting down reading a book in braille or similar. Therefore at a minimum they aren't getting the constant reinforcement of spelling, grammar, and punctuation a sighted user would get on a daily basis. All they get is e-mails, books, and other documents read to them and they are losing basic literacy as a result. Another possible reason is blind people simply don't care. I know I am on a number of sighted mailing lists and most people try to proofread their e-mails so it is clear and not full of errors. The blind technology related lists seem to be the opposite. It is almost like they can't see it, most of the people are blind on the list can't see it, so nobody cares. Either way, there is no getting around the fact if e-mails are to go buy a lot of blind list members are incompetent when it comes to general literacy. Reading braille would definitely help with that, but I think we have turned a corner where most people who don't have to use it won't. About braille and music I agree with you. I am a musician myself, and why I like playing some things by ear it is nice to be able to read the music and make sure you are doing it right than to guess and guess wrong. Plus with classical music etc it is quite a bit more involved than say rock, country, or wrap. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com wrote: I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember products like Braille Pen from Harpo which is a braille keyboard that costs around 250 Euros. This product really speeds up the braille writing for a lot of people. So people who like braille like I do, should be also allowed to use braille in a daily basis. I use braille everyday but I rarely touch a braille hard copy of any kind of documents. I only use electronic braille. Now as a professional musician and music teacher I can say that no matter what people say, blind people who want to seriously learn music specially about classic pieces they will always need to learn braille music and who ever says the opposite either is not knowledgable enough or is not serious. It's true than in letters braille can be replaced but in music, it can not. So braille is there for a longtime the point is that the way which we are using is developping. Cheers, Jorge --- Gamers
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Or Do, D O and Due, D U E.I've seen that one a lot. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Charles Rivard Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:45 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game I never could figure out how to read brailled sheet music, so just play by fingers, as playing a guitar by ear is not easy. Fingers are more easily used to make chords. (grin) The points on spelling, grammar, and punctuation are very good reasons why braille is superior to speech. However, if people listen to their messages before sending, they should notice a lack of punctuation. The screen never pauses where punctuation would direct it to. Horribly mispronounced words are usually, but not always, due to misspellings. Some blind people don't care whether they type to, two, or too, because it doesn't matter to them. They all sound OK, and they may not even know that there is a difference. This is partly due to a lack of education, and partly due to no immediate feedback as to which word is which. Braille will provide that feedback. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Jorge: I think you have hit upon the one issue that we can agree upon. While braille use is gradually being replaced by other technical alternatives it is still the only way to truly pass on literacy to a blind person. I know that on this and other blind related list the literacy of the blind list members has been going way down over the last few years. Poor spelling, poor grammar, and even lack of proper punctuation is quite common on blind related lists. One reason for this could be the trend for people to rely on technical gadgets rather than sitting down reading a book in braille or similar. Therefore at a minimum they aren't getting the constant reinforcement of spelling, grammar, and punctuation a sighted user would get on a daily basis. All they get is e-mails, books, and other documents read to them and they are losing basic literacy as a result. Another possible reason is blind people simply don't care. I know I am on a number of sighted mailing lists and most people try to proofread their e-mails so it is clear and not full of errors. The blind technology related lists seem to be the opposite. It is almost like they can't see it, most of the people are blind on the list can't see it, so nobody cares. Either way, there is no getting around the fact if e-mails are to go buy a lot of blind list members are incompetent when it comes to general literacy. Reading braille would definitely help with that, but I think we have turned a corner where most people who don't have to use it won't. About braille and music I agree with you. I am a musician myself, and why I like playing some things by ear it is nice to be able to read the music and make sure you are doing it right than to guess and guess wrong. Plus with classical music etc it is quite a bit more involved than say rock, country, or wrap. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com wrote: I also would like to give my opinion: For me when we talk about braille we now adays have to include Braille as a whole language both for paper and electronic braille displays. For me Braille is literacy and can never be replaced. The blind person should be able to write and read like everyone else. Now the question is the cost, timing and volume of braille hard copies. About this, I believe the braille production in hard books will be substancially reduced with the lack of need, lack of space to store it both at home and libraries, the speed of production and with the global crysis. ..But for me braille is also what we can read in braille displays and also the speed we get with braille writing using the same braille keyboards. For example when a book is produced and put available on the Kindle App for IOS, I can have it some minutes later fully in braille because I can read it with my braille displays And I like to be able to read, to feel the touch of letters and have the sensation of reading. The key point here is the cost of braille displays. No matter what we say, they still are very expensive and not affordable so that we could talk about the global spreading of braille. It's true that manufacturers of braille displays are trying to reduce the costs- For example a Focus 14 in the US costs 1295 if they didn't change it. I have one myself and really the quolity of this product is amazing. The braille is great, bluetooth capacities, quite keyboard. Also when we talk about braille we should remember
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
While I do partly agree on the litteracy front, there is another side to it. when I first switched from primarily writing in braille to typing, my spelling was horribly bad simply because I was so used to grade two contractions. I couldn't spell very basic words like little, recieve or father. It was only through writing in Word Perfect and using the spell check that I learnt my mistakes, since reading in braille I just got the contractions, and having been taught at such a young age those contractions were so integral to the way I thought that I still thought! of the word station as being two signs rather than s t a t i o n, despite knowing the difference. Thus, myself I disagree that the relationship between braille and lack of grammar or spelling is exactly that one way, indeed grammar mistakes I myself notice far more reading in speech than braille since I am able to hear the rythm of the sentence and punctuatiom far more easily. It is true that the reason sighted people care about spelling and maintain such is it's visible obviousness, however I disagree that braille is automatically a solution for all it might help some people, indeed I myself believe that sufficiently good synths, such as Daniel which I am using now can highlight spellings well enough if people just pay attention to them. I do wonder for example how many people have their synths set not to read what words or letters they type, or have their synths set just to read letters and then type so quickly that they do not actually hear what they are doing, (this is the reason I myself have mine set on reading words, since with my typing speed it comes out at the same wrate as normal speech). Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Card games without using cards lose the feel and atmosphere of the game. I do play Jim Kitchen's Monopoly game, but it still doesn't have the feel and atmosphere of a game of Monopoly with friends, because there isn't the exchange of money between players. It's the same with any physical board game as opposed to the same game played on a computer. The physical aspect is removed, thus taking away from game play and enjoyment. A game of cards without cards in your hand just isn't the same. Brailled cards can quickly and easily be read. For a game of solitaire, you could build a box with dividers out of cardboard and glue or staples to hold card stacks. Card shuffling is a matter of dexterity. I have no problem shuffling a deck of 80 Pinochle cards during a game of double deck Pinochle. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Some practicalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Charles: I have a feeling this is something we won't agree on, but let us take a different tact here. What is it about braille that makes it so much better than the alternatives? Let us start with your first example. What is it about playing with a physical deck of cards when playing Solitaire that is so much better than an electronic version of Solitaire? In my opinion the experience is worse. When trying to shuffle the cards I frequently drop them, don't get them shuffled right, or I have them laid out on a table and the blasted cards end up getting mixed up when bumping the table and I have to go back and fix the piles. Plus with physical cards the braille tends to wear out after a while and need to be replaced. None of these issues are problems with a computer version of the game. So I would like you to explain what I would get out of a deck of braille cards that I can not get out of a computer game besides the annoyances? In terms of labeling I actually do braille things only because I happen to have the equipment and the means to do it. I have a braille labeling gun which comes in handy for labeling DVDs, music CDS, and other things around the house. If I did not have that label gun I am certain I would use something else like a talking barcode reader or something. I think what it boils down to is I am not attached to braille, never have been, and it doesn't mean anything to me personally. I can use it if it is available, but otherwise I will happily use something else. Someone older who has used braille all their lives probably are less interested in finding a newer way of doing things when what they have works for them personally. So I don't think it is a case of one being better than the other but a matter of preference, but I am interested to know why you are so in favor of braille when it seems to me to be a worse solution than other technical methods of accessing the same info. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: It's a real shame that you don't use braille more often. Why use a computer for a game of solitaire when brailled cards are just as good if not better? Cards give a card game a totally different atmosphere. Without them, it's just a computer game. No feel to it whatsoever. I am fortunate enough to have a Bluetooth 40-cell braille display, and I use it to read NLS books on my iPhone. Someone sends me word scramble puzzles through Email that I solve with the braille rather than with speech. No need to arrow around, just read the jumbled word and unscramble it. To me, braille is a method for which such puzzles are tailor made. Speech just flat doesn't cut it. Why use an electronic device to label when braille works better? You don't need to use a device to read your labels when you've got perfectly good fingers. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation -Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Well Bryan, oxford English accent can avoid that one, since to me (and to Real speak Daniel), do and due sound very different, the way you'd never confuse coo, the sound of a pigeon, and q, Captain Picard's best friend :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi Bryan: Well, regarding netspeak I think a lot of that has to do with more and more people are using phones for communicating and since phones don't have full sized keyboards for e-mailing or texting it is easier to use the number 2 rather than use to or too. Various other common netspeak shortcuts are appearing more and more in e-mail and I suspect phones would be the leading reason. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: I've noticed that. Maybe that's partly why so may people use that netspeak nonsense instead of good, plain English. As for Braille music I never could get the hang of that LOL. NOr was I really able to make sense of it the one time I tried to read one of those Braille maps that Shades of Doom can generate. Of course I've never been good at reading maps period let alone translating that into an actual route. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hi charlse. I'm just wondering about some of these catagorical statements you make. For example Why use a device to read labels when braille works better? how is braille labelling better exactly? Using the pen friend I can record labels as long as I like. if I want a label saying indiana jones and the temple of doom extra documentary and I want to stick it on the little inch square insert by the disk in the main indiana jones box set, well I can do that. I couldn't with braille. I'd neeed to write a label saying ind 2 ext or something like that to fit into that space. I'd have to prat around with a pare of scissors chopping out labels. The penfriend barcode lables are peel off and stick on. Response: Where space is a concern, I agree with you. Otherwise, let's say on a deck of cards, fingers are less clumsy, faster, and you've already got them ready for use. Braille, in this case, is much better. why use a device when you can use your fingers? Why use a truck to carry heavy loads around when you can use your back. I'm not anti braille by any means, however Charlse it seems that often your statements about braille are simply catagorical. You think braille is clearly the best option because it is, fullstop, end of story. Well fair enough your entitled to an opinion, however it really isn't helpful to a debate to just throw out catagorical statements like that with no reason behind them. Response: I do state why braille is better in some cases. It's known as independence. Why rely on a machine if you don't have to? Read rather than be read to. Do it yourself with what you've got rather than rely on technology to do something so simple as reading. I'm not anti braille by any means, but neither do I believe braille is the best alternative simply because it is. Braille has good and bad points like anything else and if we're going to discuss them I'd prefer a real discussion please. Response: As stated above, I don't say that braille is the only way to go. In a lot of cases, it is not. However, it should not be done away with due to technology. Why is it that the majority of employed blind people are braille readers who also use technology? Literacy. Without braille, it's like not knowing how to read. Independence. Why be read to if you can read it yourself? Beware the Grue! Response: I refuse to beware the Grue! Dark. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi charlse. I'm just wondering about some of these catagorical statements you make. For example Why use a device to read labels when braille works better? how is braille labelling better exactly? Using the pen friend I can record labels as long as I like. if I want a label saying indiana jones and the temple of doom extra documentary and I want to stick it on the little inch square insert by the disk in the main indiana jones box set, well I can do that. I couldn't with braille. I'd neeed to write a label saying ind 2 ext or something like that to fit into that space. I'd have to prat around with a pare of scissors chopping out labels. The penfriend barcode lables are peel off and stick on. why use a device when you can use your fingers? Why use a truck to carry heavy loads around when you can use your back. I'm not anti braille by any means, however Charlse it seems that often your statements about braille are simply catagorical. You think braille is clearly the best option because it is, fullstop, end of story. Well fair enough your entitled to an opinion, however it really isn't helpful to a debate to just throw out catagorical statements like that with no reason behind them. I'm not anti braille by any means, but neither do I believe braille is the best alternative simply because it is. Braille has good and bad points like anything else and if we're going to discuss them I'd prefer a real discussion please. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Another instance in which braille would be beneficial is when writing code of computer program, I would think. Where spacing and punctuation is important, speech output would be tedious, time consuming, and a downright pain in the backside. Going through your code, proofreading before compiling, would probably be more naturally done with the fingers than the ears. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi: Lol! Yes, fingers are better than ears when playing guitars and pianos too. Regarding basic proofreading and editing no matter what screen reader certain things should be obvious when a word sounds wrong, it runs on without pausing, etc it is easy enough to find and correct such errors just by using speech alone. I figure most people don't care, and don't bother doing basic proofreading which they can do with any screen reader with or without a spell checker. However, some things I question if it is just a lack of caring or a lack of literacy such as the difference between to, too, and two or where and wear. I see such mistakes often on lists and wonder about the literacy level of the poster sending the post. As you say learning and using braille would help out alot with such mistakes. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I never could figure out how to read brailled sheet music, so just play by fingers, as playing a guitar by ear is not easy. Fingers are more easily used to make chords. (grin) The points on spelling, grammar, and punctuation are very good reasons why braille is superior to speech. However, if people listen to their messages before sending, they should notice a lack of punctuation. The screen never pauses where punctuation would direct it to. Horribly mispronounced words are usually, but not always, due to misspellings. Some blind people don't care whether they type to, two, or too, because it doesn't matter to them. They all sound OK, and they may not even know that there is a difference. This is partly due to a lack of education, and partly due to no immediate feedback as to which word is which. Braille will provide that feedback. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Space and costs of production certainly are concerns when it comes to braille. The cost of refreshable braille display is, gradually, decreasing. The cost of producing braille, in the form of .brf files, is also coming down through the use of braille translation software, and the volumes can be reproduced more quickly. So this is greatly increasing the availability of brailled materials. So, through the use of technology, I hope that independent reading by blind people through the use of braille, even if it isn't hardcopy, will never be phased out. Printed books will not die out through the advancement of technology, although sighted people could also rely solely on computer technology to get their info, just as the majority of blind people do. But in a lot of cases, what do they do? They use a printer to print out something that can then be read with their eyes. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Tom. All that is true, indeed I remember in secondary school having regular arguements with the school librarian (rather like Madam pince in Harry potter), who stated that a person could only have 3 books out at a time, irrispective that the three books I wanted out were three volumes of the hobbit, which I wanted to take on holiday with me. I also always found myself braille reading speed really suffered as compared to reading in speech or by a recording, especially with complex and detailed material, heck this was why when I got to university and started studdying philosophy, I never! got any texts brailled and always worked through either a small portable scanner, or a digital recorder and paid reading assistant, indeed during my phd research that became highly necessary. One thing I will say however, is that while reading speed and ability to get basic informational content from braille is much less than speech or audio, for atmosphere and individual comprehention I have always preferd braille over speech. This is why I don't particularly like reading Ebooks and the like with a synth voice if I have a choice, --- -but would be happy doing so in braille. The problem is that with the technology for braille reproduction being the price it is, it's just not practical. If I won the lottery or robbed a bank I might buy a braille display, similarly if I could get one for say 100 or even 200 usd I might, but as it is it's just too much of a luxury, indeed I find myself these days far less aversed to reading in synth voices than i used to be just through necessity of having to do it due to lack of said display. This is again why I'd love to see improvement in braille reproduction, but equally why I'm fairly convinced braille will drop off the map if this doesn't happen. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation -Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
To me, if you buy a deck of cards for $2 at the store, then record and stick labels onto them, it would be cumbersome to have to identify them electronically than to just feel the braille that I can emboss on the card using a braille writer. The same would be true with a Monopoly set. Brailled Monopoly sets are nice, but terribly expensive! But they sure are faster to use when playing a game with friends. I can read the info just about as quickly as I could listen to it being read to me, plus, I don't need to access that info electronically. The Pen Friend is great for a lot of things, but not for all. The same is true for braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation -Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hmmm, charlse I'm confused. Listening to a long message on the penfriend is just as quick as hearing it spoken, because you mmm, speak it, and with the labels bieng so small who ever said you had to have one entire message per label? My mum once tested this on me when discussing exam provision, whether I needed a braille exam paper producing or whether I could live with the teacher who was invigilating my exam (which I took on my own since I got extra time), just reading it, (the teacher had to be there anyway, so producing the paper was just extra cost to my schools education grant). It took me 40 seconds to read the paragraph in braille, where it took 19 to speak, enough said. Finally, why the hell would I be sticking pen friend labels on an already brailled set of cards or monopoly? that would indeed be a major waste of time. I meant labelling something entirely new, like say a set of custom cards or board squares for a game, (I remember the fun my mum and I had trying to label the video horror board game atmosphere since getting the full text of everything you had to do on each card was just not humanly possible in braille, dam the penfriend would've helped! Lastly, well the penfriend stores things as I believe 32 kbps mp3s, and the version I have has a 5 Gb harddrive, so that's about 5 thousand! minutes of storage space, plus of course the more modern versions have sd card space. I also don't see what is so awkward about the penfriend, i've always found it fine, indeed I use mine every time I want to watch some of my dvds. indeedd, I regularly get a good comparison, since some of my dvds are labeled with braille, but all my more recent ones are labeled with the penfriend, and it's a lot easier when i am watching through startrek voyager to be able to get the full series and disk infok than wwhen i am watching tng where I just have a small note saying Tng x - x and then have to rely on putting the disks back in the right order to get them the right way around (I have to be dam careful not to drop them). Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
I think that text messaging is the main reason. I prefer typing most stuff out rather than abbreviating, but it's a personal choice, and jmo. Oops? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re: Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Hi Bryan: Well, regarding netspeak I think a lot of that has to do with more and more people are using phones for communicating and since phones don't have full sized keyboards for e-mailing or texting it is easier to use the number 2 rather than use to or too. Various other common netspeak shortcuts are appearing more and more in e-mail and I suspect phones would be the leading reason. Cheers! On 12/12/13, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: I've noticed that. Maybe that's partly why so may people use that netspeak nonsense instead of good, plain English. As for Braille music I never could get the hang of that LOL. NOr was I really able to make sense of it the one time I tried to read one of those Braille maps that Shades of Doom can generate. Of course I've never been good at reading maps period let alone translating that into an actual route. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
There's where accents come into play. I would not use Daniel, because of things like ah instead of r. I detest not hearing an r where one should be spoken. Start, not stot. Car, not cah, and so on. I also don't like heard that some sore a film rather than that they saw a film. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well Bryan, oxford English accent can avoid that one, since to me (and to Real speak Daniel), do and due sound very different, the way you'd never confuse coo, the sound of a pigeon, and q, Captain Picard's best friend :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
My keyboard input is silent. The synthesizer does not say anything as I type. I usually go over the message before sending, and I do have a spell checker running all the time, although it doesn't catch very many errors, which are mainly typos. To me, having every keystroke, or even every word repeated to me as I type is very distracting. Typewriters give no verbal feedback, and I grew up with no verbal feedback as I typed, so it is more natural to me to type on a computer with the same lack of unnecessary feedback. As for grade 2 braille causing a lack of spelling, I am a good speller, so this is not a problem. I know, for example, that knowledge is not spelled k or that little is not spelled ll. In school, during spelling tests, we had to write using grade 1 braille. This eliminated the problem of using grade 2 braille contractions and not knowing the way to actually spell. You cannot use a dot 5 m on a typewriter. You must type mother. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation - Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game While I do partly agree on the litteracy front, there is another side to it. when I first switched from primarily writing in braille to typing, my spelling was horribly bad simply because I was so used to grade two contractions. I couldn't spell very basic words like little, recieve or father. It was only through writing in Word Perfect and using the spell check that I learnt my mistakes, since reading in braille I just got the contractions, and having been taught at such a young age those contractions were so integral to the way I thought that I still thought! of the word station as being two signs rather than s t a t i o n, despite knowing the difference. Thus, myself I disagree that the relationship between braille and lack of grammar or spelling is exactly that one way, indeed grammar mistakes I myself notice far more reading in speech than braille since I am able to hear the rythm of the sentence and punctuatiom far more easily. It is true that the reason sighted people care about spelling and maintain such is it's visible obviousness, however I disagree that braille is automatically a solution for all it might help some people, indeed I myself believe that sufficiently good synths, such as Daniel which I am using now can highlight spellings well enough if people just pay attention to them. I do wonder for example how many people have their synths set not to read what words or letters they type, or have their synths set just to read letters and then type so quickly that they do not actually hear what they are doing, (this is the reason I myself have mine set on reading words, since with my typing speed it comes out at the same wrate as normal speech). Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation -Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Well I do agree that the practical shape of the penfriend sensor would make it less convenient to scan each card in your hand than reading a braille label, however I suspect this will change in the future, for example if you could have a smaller and more compact reading device which you could hold more easily, say something the size of an actual pen. Again though, the Penfriend is the first device of it's type and this is likely to change in the future, plus the device isn't so awkwkard to use once you've got the muscle memory in your hands, as i said I use mine a great deal. Regarding independence, I'm slightly confused on how using technology isn't independence, unless your somehow claiming that my Penfriend is acquivolent to a human helper. Why is writing a braille label and sticking it onto something any less relying on technology, it's just a question of the sophistication of the technology, heck if we take this arguement to it's ultimate conclusion maybe we should all go back to living like gorillas in the forest and be independent of these houses, electricity etc. I'm afraid you've lost me entirely here Charlse. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Using brailled playing cards rather than an electronic means to access the symbols is just one less thing you have to hold in your hands. I can hold the cards in my hand, face down, and read with fingers that I am already equipped with. No need to stick labels onto the cards when I can braille them and access those labels with nothing other than what I was born with. The technology is available, but can you imagine using a flat bed scanner and OpenBook to find out what each card is? Fingers are faster, less cumbersome, and more reliable. Independence is not having to rely on technology unless you have to. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well I do agree that the practical shape of the penfriend sensor would make it less convenient to scan each card in your hand than reading a braille label, however I suspect this will change in the future, for example if you could have a smaller and more compact reading device which you could hold more easily, say something the size of an actual pen. Again though, the Penfriend is the first device of it's type and this is likely to change in the future, plus the device isn't so awkwkard to use once you've got the muscle memory in your hands, as i said I use mine a great deal. Regarding independence, I'm slightly confused on how using technology isn't independence, unless your somehow claiming that my Penfriend is acquivolent to a human helper. Why is writing a braille label and sticking it onto something any less relying on technology, it's just a question of the sophistication of the technology, heck if we take this arguement to it's ultimate conclusion maybe we should all go back to living like gorillas in the forest and be independent of these houses, electricity etc. I'm afraid you've lost me entirely here Charlse. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost ofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Charlse your statement about R and should is entirely incorrect on this side of the Atlantic, I could make similar complaints about American accents hearing a d when there should be t and several other instances, accept that it would be extremely pedantic and narrow minded of me to claime that the way I speek was the way anything should be done all over the world or assume that my version of English was the only correct one. likewise, you are flat wrong if you assume the short o of hot and the long a of heart are the same in Uk english. it depends upon whether your lips come forward to pronounce the O sound, or go back. In British accents they tend to be more forward, while in American accents they are back. This is why in an American accent a word like saw comes out closer to s, where as in an English accent it is more nasal. This I learnt from my singing teacher when we discussed the different methods of pronouncing vvowel sounds in different languages and accents. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation -Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Well charlse, you learnt spelling with a typewriter, I moved to a computer when I was 13. So what is the difference? Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the cost ofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
Hmmm, independence is not relying on technology unless you have to? Well I hope you enjoy it in that cave with your fire and your club, since you don't have! to use electricity, just use the nales and teeth you were born with to hunt creatures in the forest and rely on your skin to keep out the cold, since who wants all this complex living in houses. To be hoenst charlse I don't think there's much point continuing this. You just seem to have a grudge against any technology that isn't braille, and a beleief that braille is inherently superior for some reason. Myself I just regard braille as a means to an end and prefer to considder it so, I've never found anything particularly astounding in it. Beware the Grue! Dark. I'd - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost ofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Using brailled playing cards rather than an electronic means to access the symbols is just one less thing you have to hold in your hands. I can hold the cards in my hand, face down, and read with fingers that I am already equipped with. No need to stick labels onto the cards when I can braille them and access those labels with nothing other than what I was born with. The technology is available, but can you imagine using a flat bed scanner and OpenBook to find out what each card is? Fingers are faster, less cumbersome, and more reliable. Independence is not having to rely on technology unless you have to. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well I do agree that the practical shape of the penfriend sensor would make it less convenient to scan each card in your hand than reading a braille label, however I suspect this will change in the future, for example if you could have a smaller and more compact reading device which you could hold more easily, say something the size of an actual pen. Again though, the Penfriend is the first device of it's type and this is likely to change in the future, plus the device isn't so awkwkard to use once you've got the muscle memory in your hands, as i said I use mine a great deal. Regarding independence, I'm slightly confused on how using technology isn't independence, unless your somehow claiming that my Penfriend is acquivolent to a human helper. Why is writing a braille label and sticking it onto something any less relying on technology, it's just a question of the sophistication of the technology, heck if we take this arguement to it's ultimate conclusion maybe we should all go back to living like gorillas in the forest and be independent of these houses, electricity etc. I'm afraid you've lost me entirely here Charlse. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Space Attack
I've been holding on to this little jewel far too long. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96692612/SpaceAttack.zip This is a Space Invaders clone I wrote for Pac Mate and have just ported over to windows. No, it's not like all the other so-called space invader clones. While all those games were good, they were not true clones, with the exception of the PCS version. All 72 ships are in game, and their are three shields to hind behind. Their are also some extras, like using credits to upgrade your bass, battery packs for your guns, shields, and even gambling. This demo lets you play the first three levels. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Space Attack
Hay Ken, it sounds fun. I always wanted to have an audio version with the ships in vfull lines which had the dodge and fire mechanichs. One of my earliest memories was my dad teaching me at the age of 3 that if I wanted to avoid the invaders shooting I had to duck under the shields which he and I called castles due to their shape. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Ken Downey kenwdow...@thepionear.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:04 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Space Attack I've been holding on to this little jewel far too long. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96692612/SpaceAttack.zip This is a Space Invaders clone I wrote for Pac Mate and have just ported over to windows. No, it's not like all the other so-called space invader clones. While all those games were good, they were not true clones, with the exception of the PCS version. All 72 ships are in game, and their are three shields to hind behind. Their are also some extras, like using credits to upgrade your bass, battery packs for your guns, shields, and even gambling. This demo lets you play the first three levels. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Time of conflict, was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone
Hi dark, Actually, I'm not sure if the version you can buy from David's website is the latest or not. I thought he was selling the latest beta version, but that was just my assumption. There is definitely a huge difference between the 1.0 version and what is being tested now, and those that want an immerssive audio game with lots of replayablillity are in for a real experience. Later Che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game
I didn't say that one way is right and the other is wrong. I said that I would not use that voice because I don't like the way it pronounces. I prefer heart rather than Hot as an example.. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game Charlse your statement about R and should is entirely incorrect on this side of the Atlantic, I could make similar complaints about American accents hearing a d when there should be t and several other instances, accept that it would be extremely pedantic and narrow minded of me to claime that the way I speek was the way anything should be done all over the world or assume that my version of English was the only correct one. likewise, you are flat wrong if you assume the short o of hot and the long a of heart are the same in Uk english. it depends upon whether your lips come forward to pronounce the O sound, or go back. In British accents they tend to be more forward, while in American accents they are back. This is why in an American accent a word like saw comes out closer to s, where as in an English accent it is more nasal. This I learnt from my singing teacher when we discussed the different methods of pronouncing vvowel sounds in different languages and accents. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game
You've gotten into the ridiculous, now. Living in caves without today's technology is far from the thread. I never said it, either. And, if you've been reading my messages, you would have also read that I do agree that today's technology is good, but that braille does, in my opinion, have it's place. So does all of the technology we all are using. I've been trying to point out where I, personally, think that we can use braille rather than other technology to enjoy our lives, or at least, mine, better. I find it enjoyable to read a braille book, while others don't. I don't see the need to use speech output and some sort of method of scanning a playing card when you can more easily read it with your fingers using no other technology than the braille on the card. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game Hmmm, independence is not relying on technology unless you have to? Well I hope you enjoy it in that cave with your fire and your club, since you don't have! to use electricity, just use the nales and teeth you were born with to hunt creatures in the forest and rely on your skin to keep out the cold, since who wants all this complex living in houses. To be hoenst charlse I don't think there's much point continuing this. You just seem to have a grudge against any technology that isn't braille, and a beleief that braille is inherently superior for some reason. Myself I just regard braille as a means to an end and prefer to considder it so, I've never found anything particularly astounding in it. Beware the Grue! Dark. I'd - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost ofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Using brailled playing cards rather than an electronic means to access the symbols is just one less thing you have to hold in your hands. I can hold the cards in my hand, face down, and read with fingers that I am already equipped with. No need to stick labels onto the cards when I can braille them and access those labels with nothing other than what I was born with. The technology is available, but can you imagine using a flat bed scanner and OpenBook to find out what each card is? Fingers are faster, less cumbersome, and more reliable. Independence is not having to rely on technology unless you have to. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well I do agree that the practical shape of the penfriend sensor would make it less convenient to scan each card in your hand than reading a braille label, however I suspect this will change in the future, for example if you could have a smaller and more compact reading device which you could hold more easily, say something the size of an actual pen. Again though, the Penfriend is the first device of it's type and this is likely to change in the future, plus the device isn't so awkwkard to use once you've got the muscle memory in your hands, as i said I use mine a great deal. Regarding independence, I'm slightly confused on how using technology isn't independence, unless your somehow claiming that my Penfriend is acquivolent to a human helper. Why is writing a braille label and sticking it onto something any less relying on technology, it's just a question of the sophistication of the technology, heck if we take this arguement to it's ultimate conclusion maybe we should all go back to living like gorillas in the forest and be independent of these houses, electricity etc. I'm afraid you've lost me entirely here Charlse. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game
You pointed out that part of the spelling problems people have is that they use grade 2 contracted braille, so have problems with words like little and character, thinking they are spelled ll and k. I mentioned that I started typing my school assignments so that teachers did not have to get my work only after it had been copied into a format that the teacher could read, and that using the typewriter helped my spelling because I could not use braille contractions when typing. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well charlse, you learnt spelling with a typewriter, I moved to a computer when I was 13. So what is the difference? Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict, was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone
Hi Che. 1.0 is definitely all that is on the Gma site, but I have heard a beata version was in testing which had major and complete changes like a fully customizable game builder that let you create your own units, map tyles etc and completely change their properties, and that the game came with lots of different styles of maps and units to try these out, if I remember rightly Phil posted a message detailing some of the features in August of about 2012. If you've been testing the beta however perhaps you could ask David Greenwood where things are in terms of a full public release. I know release dates are a long way from being an exact science but it'd be nice to get a vague idea where this was. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] thecostofdocumentation-Re:SomepracticalquestionsreguardingtheMonopoly game
My problem witbraille at least as far as reading for entertainment, is that I'd fall asleep too easily. That's why I prefer audiobooks and why I play a game like Sryth with speech. All I have to do if I want to know how to spell something like the name of a city I'm visiting is navigate character by character. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Charles Rivard Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:45 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] thecostofdocumentation-Re:SomepracticalquestionsreguardingtheMonopoly game You've gotten into the ridiculous, now. Living in caves without today's technology is far from the thread. I never said it, either. And, if you've been reading my messages, you would have also read that I do agree that today's technology is good, but that braille does, in my opinion, have it's place. So does all of the technology we all are using. I've been trying to point out where I, personally, think that we can use braille rather than other technology to enjoy our lives, or at least, mine, better. I find it enjoyable to read a braille book, while others don't. I don't see the need to use speech output and some sort of method of scanning a playing card when you can more easily read it with your fingers using no other technology than the braille on the card. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game Hmmm, independence is not relying on technology unless you have to? Well I hope you enjoy it in that cave with your fire and your club, since you don't have! to use electricity, just use the nales and teeth you were born with to hunt creatures in the forest and rely on your skin to keep out the cold, since who wants all this complex living in houses. To be hoenst charlse I don't think there's much point continuing this. You just seem to have a grudge against any technology that isn't braille, and a beleief that braille is inherently superior for some reason. Myself I just regard braille as a means to an end and prefer to considder it so, I've never found anything particularly astounding in it. Beware the Grue! Dark. I'd - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost ofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Using brailled playing cards rather than an electronic means to access the symbols is just one less thing you have to hold in your hands. I can hold the cards in my hand, face down, and read with fingers that I am already equipped with. No need to stick labels onto the cards when I can braille them and access those labels with nothing other than what I was born with. The technology is available, but can you imagine using a flat bed scanner and OpenBook to find out what each card is? Fingers are faster, less cumbersome, and more reliable. Independence is not having to rely on technology unless you have to. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well I do agree that the practical shape of the penfriend sensor would make it less convenient to scan each card in your hand than reading a braille label, however I suspect this will change in the future, for example if you could have a smaller and more compact reading device which you could hold more easily, say something the size of an actual pen. Again though, the Penfriend is the first device of it's type and this is likely to change in the future, plus the device isn't so awkwkard to use once you've got the muscle memory in your hands, as i said I use mine a great deal. Regarding independence, I'm slightly confused on how using technology isn't independence, unless your somehow claiming that my Penfriend is acquivolent to a human helper. Why is writing a braille label and sticking it onto something any less relying on technology, it's just a question of the sophistication of the technology, heck if we take this arguement to it's ultimate conclusion maybe we should all go back to living like gorillas in the forest and be independent of these houses, electricity etc. I'm afraid you've lost me entirely here Charlse. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send
Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict, was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone
David Greenwood is very hush hush about upcoming releases or what is going on. And I'll bet he won't beware the Grue, either. (devilish grin) --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict,was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone Hi Che. 1.0 is definitely all that is on the Gma site, but I have heard a beata version was in testing which had major and complete changes like a fully customizable game builder that let you create your own units, map tyles etc and completely change their properties, and that the game came with lots of different styles of maps and units to try these out, if I remember rightly Phil posted a message detailing some of the features in August of about 2012. If you've been testing the beta however perhaps you could ask David Greenwood where things are in terms of a full public release. I know release dates are a long way from being an exact science but it'd be nice to get a vague idea where this was. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Space Attack
So far, I don't see how to start the gam using Windows. Maybe I missed it, but it isn't in any of the .txt files, and there doesn't appear to be an .exe file. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Ken Downey kenwdow...@thepionear.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:04 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Space Attack I've been holding on to this little jewel far too long. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96692612/SpaceAttack.zip This is a Space Invaders clone I wrote for Pac Mate and have just ported over to windows. No, it's not like all the other so-called space invader clones. While all those games were good, they were not true clones, with the exception of the PCS version. All 72 ships are in game, and their are three shields to hind behind. Their are also some extras, like using credits to upgrade your bass, battery packs for your guns, shields, and even gambling. This demo lets you play the first three levels. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Civilization games on PC or iPhone
Thomas, Spot on! It's really important for every team member to have access to a copy of the action statements for the team. Thusly, it's important to generate good clear action statements for the team members to act upon. Anyway, in short, I agree with you. Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 12, 2013, at 1:14 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Shaun: Sounds to me like poor management on your teams part. Basically, a bunch of people who don't have their act together. As generally having a team will speed up and increase productivity on a project. To give you an example you were talking about a Catch Fish game and not knowing what to do. It is obvious the person running your team doesn't know what he is doing as he should have written up a list of assignments for the team, and told each member of the team what he or she is to do. All members of the team should have copies of the documentation about the project such as an outline of the basic project, and any technical notes he or she has on the over all project. If your team leader doesn't take notes, write up good documentation, etc than he or she is not a good team leader. That is all there is to it. Moreover, I am wondering what possible limitations that your programmers could have run into that made them switch from BGT to VB 6. I've used BGT a bit myself, and I can't find any limitations that would convince me that using Pure Basic or VB 6 would be any better. In fact, I can think of several good reasons to stick with BGT unless there is something absolutely essential to the game that it misses. Cheers! On 12/11/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well as part of a development team doing the deathmatch series, and catchfish among others I can tell you that with a 1 man band or even more than one it really does make things hard. First, if anyone looses energy or interest or has writers block or gets injured somehow, then things just stop. Right now for example I am waiting on others to finnish things before I can run them. This is not so bad right now because I am getting ready for christmas but even so. Point is its quite hard when you are quite small. Not to mention how to code things. Firstly we used bgt and encountered lots of limits pushing it as far as we could. Then pure basic, again pushing the limits well at least finding some issues we can ot seem to get round. Now we are using visualbasic 6. I'd have liked to move away from such an old language but in reality its probably where we will go now. And on that note I have loads of issues playing older games like gma on windows 7 even with my soundcards 3d emulater software, things just don't work right so in short I think I will be using an old xp system for general gaming and maybe a vm later on a server unless I can find out how to game on the nativ system. Sound wise I can only go on what for example is around. In the deathmatch series I have always had a direct idea of how things will go. In the catchfish game, since Its not been written yet, I have huge issue knowing what to do and have put a shot in the dark. This shot was not the greatest but I have had no idea still it was ok. Next is music. I have just had another shot uploading over 600mb of music but again I have no idea how that will go. all I have to go on is some samples of things. So for the small team its really hard especially when you are few, especially when you are in different timezones. It would be impossible to even do this if I was offline though. Even meeting the devs and such we do now was impossible a few years ago. Sertainly I have seen the blind games industry which started with a few small companies, with the event of the game engines and a few other things has drifted to a lot of small indipendant startups one of which I am part of. So its clear the small devs are the way of the future at least for now. A lot of the console games my cousin has like battlefield and several others have quite a crappy storyline but are mainly for the online play. I still like the stories myself online play really needs a real investment which I can't always put in. Right now I am almost done with my computer stuff, but I still need to excersise and do chores and get a tree. I may have time later to game, but maybe not. and with summer coming on much less due to heat. Not being big has its drawbacks. You can't sneak out for a smoke but you don't have deadlines either as such unless you want to. There was talk about going comercial, and we may eventually do so, ofcause there are all the things like incomes and such especially with benifit laws. copywrited material, sounds, etc, and then, there is the comitment and deadlines. The way it is now, it doesn't matter if the stuff
Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict, was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone
I think you missunderstood my point ther Charlse. When I read your message saying heart and hot sound the same it actually makes no sense at all, since manifestly Daniel reads them as differently since it emulates the mouth vowel shape that is used in England, how do you think all the people in England avoid confusing the words? beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict,was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone David Greenwood is very hush hush about upcoming releases or what is going on. And I'll bet he won't beware the Grue, either. (devilish grin) --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict,was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone Hi Che. 1.0 is definitely all that is on the Gma site, but I have heard a beata version was in testing which had major and complete changes like a fully customizable game builder that let you create your own units, map tyles etc and completely change their properties, and that the game came with lots of different styles of maps and units to try these out, if I remember rightly Phil posted a message detailing some of the features in August of about 2012. If you've been testing the beta however perhaps you could ask David Greenwood where things are in terms of a full public release. I know release dates are a long way from being an exact science but it'd be nice to get a vague idea where this was. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] thecostofdocumentation-Re:SomepracticalquestionsreguardingtheMonopoly game
That’s odd. I fall asleep easily with audio books. I guess it depends on the person’s information retention style, etc. I have a bit of hearing loss, too, and find audiobooks a bit challenging at times. But really, I just prefer braille. My two small bits of currency. :) Teresa Slow down; you'll get there faster. On Dec 12, 2013, at 3:22 PM, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: My problem witbraille at least as far as reading for entertainment, is that I'd fall asleep too easily. That's why I prefer audiobooks and why I play a game like Sryth with speech. All I have to do if I want to know how to spell something like the name of a city I'm visiting is navigate character by character. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Charles Rivard Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:45 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] thecostofdocumentation-Re:SomepracticalquestionsreguardingtheMonopoly game You've gotten into the ridiculous, now. Living in caves without today's technology is far from the thread. I never said it, either. And, if you've been reading my messages, you would have also read that I do agree that today's technology is good, but that braille does, in my opinion, have it's place. So does all of the technology we all are using. I've been trying to point out where I, personally, think that we can use braille rather than other technology to enjoy our lives, or at least, mine, better. I find it enjoyable to read a braille book, while others don't. I don't see the need to use speech output and some sort of method of scanning a playing card when you can more easily read it with your fingers using no other technology than the braille on the card. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game Hmmm, independence is not relying on technology unless you have to? Well I hope you enjoy it in that cave with your fire and your club, since you don't have! to use electricity, just use the nales and teeth you were born with to hunt creatures in the forest and rely on your skin to keep out the cold, since who wants all this complex living in houses. To be hoenst charlse I don't think there's much point continuing this. You just seem to have a grudge against any technology that isn't braille, and a beleief that braille is inherently superior for some reason. Myself I just regard braille as a means to an end and prefer to considder it so, I've never found anything particularly astounding in it. Beware the Grue! Dark. I'd - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost ofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Using brailled playing cards rather than an electronic means to access the symbols is just one less thing you have to hold in your hands. I can hold the cards in my hand, face down, and read with fingers that I am already equipped with. No need to stick labels onto the cards when I can braille them and access those labels with nothing other than what I was born with. The technology is available, but can you imagine using a flat bed scanner and OpenBook to find out what each card is? Fingers are faster, less cumbersome, and more reliable. Independence is not having to rely on technology unless you have to. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well I do agree that the practical shape of the penfriend sensor would make it less convenient to scan each card in your hand than reading a braille label, however I suspect this will change in the future, for example if you could have a smaller and more compact reading device which you could hold more easily, say something the size of an actual pen. Again though, the Penfriend is the first device of it's type and this is likely to change in the future, plus the device isn't so awkwkard to use once you've got the muscle memory in your hands, as i said I use mine a great deal. Regarding independence, I'm slightly confused on how using technology isn't independence, unless your somehow claiming that my Penfriend is acquivolent to a human helper. Why is writing a braille
Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game
I never quite understood the argument for technology over Braille. Braille displays are very much part of computer technology. I think the real issue is cost. once a technical breakthrough happens for producing braille at low costs, it may experience a revival. I hope so, anyway. Teresa The Golden Age of science fiction is twelve.--Pete Graham On Dec 12, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: You've gotten into the ridiculous, now. Living in caves without today's technology is far from the thread. I never said it, either. And, if you've been reading my messages, you would have also read that I do agree that today's technology is good, but that braille does, in my opinion, have it's place. So does all of the technology we all are using. I've been trying to point out where I, personally, think that we can use braille rather than other technology to enjoy our lives, or at least, mine, better. I find it enjoyable to read a braille book, while others don't. I don't see the need to use speech output and some sort of method of scanning a playing card when you can more easily read it with your fingers using no other technology than the braille on the card. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game Hmmm, independence is not relying on technology unless you have to? Well I hope you enjoy it in that cave with your fire and your club, since you don't have! to use electricity, just use the nales and teeth you were born with to hunt creatures in the forest and rely on your skin to keep out the cold, since who wants all this complex living in houses. To be hoenst charlse I don't think there's much point continuing this. You just seem to have a grudge against any technology that isn't braille, and a beleief that braille is inherently superior for some reason. Myself I just regard braille as a means to an end and prefer to considder it so, I've never found anything particularly astounding in it. Beware the Grue! Dark. I'd - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost ofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Using brailled playing cards rather than an electronic means to access the symbols is just one less thing you have to hold in your hands. I can hold the cards in my hand, face down, and read with fingers that I am already equipped with. No need to stick labels onto the cards when I can braille them and access those labels with nothing other than what I was born with. The technology is available, but can you imagine using a flat bed scanner and OpenBook to find out what each card is? Fingers are faster, less cumbersome, and more reliable. Independence is not having to rely on technology unless you have to. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well I do agree that the practical shape of the penfriend sensor would make it less convenient to scan each card in your hand than reading a braille label, however I suspect this will change in the future, for example if you could have a smaller and more compact reading device which you could hold more easily, say something the size of an actual pen. Again though, the Penfriend is the first device of it's type and this is likely to change in the future, plus the device isn't so awkwkard to use once you've got the muscle memory in your hands, as i said I use mine a great deal. Regarding independence, I'm slightly confused on how using technology isn't independence, unless your somehow claiming that my Penfriend is acquivolent to a human helper. Why is writing a braille label and sticking it onto something any less relying on technology, it's just a question of the sophistication of the technology, heck if we take this arguement to it's ultimate conclusion maybe we should all go back to living like gorillas in the forest and be independent of these houses, electricity etc. I'm afraid you've lost me entirely here Charlse. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or
Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict, was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone
I sometimes hear the difference, but I do not like to not hear an r that should be pronounced. Enter, not entUh, or hear an r where there is none, such as the earlier example of saying that someone sore a film instead of that they saw a film. . I have nothing against the people in the UK, I just do not like the accent of Daniel. I very much prefer Scansoft Tom, and it's a personal choice. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 8:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict,was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone I think you missunderstood my point ther Charlse. When I read your message saying heart and hot sound the same it actually makes no sense at all, since manifestly Daniel reads them as differently since it emulates the mouth vowel shape that is used in England, how do you think all the people in England avoid confusing the words? beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict,was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone David Greenwood is very hush hush about upcoming releases or what is going on. And I'll bet he won't beware the Grue, either. (devilish grin) --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Time of conflict,was: RE: Civilization games on PC or iPhone Hi Che. 1.0 is definitely all that is on the Gma site, but I have heard a beata version was in testing which had major and complete changes like a fully customizable game builder that let you create your own units, map tyles etc and completely change their properties, and that the game came with lots of different styles of maps and units to try these out, if I remember rightly Phil posted a message detailing some of the features in August of about 2012. If you've been testing the beta however perhaps you could ask David Greenwood where things are in terms of a full public release. I know release dates are a long way from being an exact science but it'd be nice to get a vague idea where this was. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] thecostofdocumentation-Re:SomepracticalquestionsreguardingtheMonopolygame
I will fall asleep more quickly listening to an audio book than if I'm reading the same book using braille. Maybe it's because I'm not moving much when listening, but my hands are moving when reading braille. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Teresa Cochran vegaspipistre...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey]thecostofdocumentation-Re:SomepracticalquestionsreguardingtheMonopolygame That’s odd. I fall asleep easily with audio books. I guess it depends on the person’s information retention style, etc. I have a bit of hearing loss, too, and find audiobooks a bit challenging at times. But really, I just prefer braille. My two small bits of currency. :) Teresa Slow down; you'll get there faster. On Dec 12, 2013, at 3:22 PM, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: My problem witbraille at least as far as reading for entertainment, is that I'd fall asleep too easily. That's why I prefer audiobooks and why I play a game like Sryth with speech. All I have to do if I want to know how to spell something like the name of a city I'm visiting is navigate character by character. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Charles Rivard Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:45 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] thecostofdocumentation-Re:SomepracticalquestionsreguardingtheMonopoly game You've gotten into the ridiculous, now. Living in caves without today's technology is far from the thread. I never said it, either. And, if you've been reading my messages, you would have also read that I do agree that today's technology is good, but that braille does, in my opinion, have it's place. So does all of the technology we all are using. I've been trying to point out where I, personally, think that we can use braille rather than other technology to enjoy our lives, or at least, mine, better. I find it enjoyable to read a braille book, while others don't. I don't see the need to use speech output and some sort of method of scanning a playing card when you can more easily read it with your fingers using no other technology than the braille on the card. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the costofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding theMonopoly game Hmmm, independence is not relying on technology unless you have to? Well I hope you enjoy it in that cave with your fire and your club, since you don't have! to use electricity, just use the nales and teeth you were born with to hunt creatures in the forest and rely on your skin to keep out the cold, since who wants all this complex living in houses. To be hoenst charlse I don't think there's much point continuing this. You just seem to have a grudge against any technology that isn't braille, and a beleief that braille is inherently superior for some reason. Myself I just regard braille as a means to an end and prefer to considder it so, I've never found anything particularly astounding in it. Beware the Grue! Dark. I'd - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost ofdocumentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Using brailled playing cards rather than an electronic means to access the symbols is just one less thing you have to hold in your hands. I can hold the cards in my hand, face down, and read with fingers that I am already equipped with. No need to stick labels onto the cards when I can braille them and access those labels with nothing other than what I was born with. The technology is available, but can you imagine using a flat bed scanner and OpenBook to find out what each card is? Fingers are faster, less cumbersome, and more reliable. Independence is not having to rely on technology unless you have to. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the cost of documentation-Re:Somepracticalquestionsreguarding the Monopoly game Well I do agree that the practical shape of the penfriend sensor would make it less convenient to scan each card in your hand than reading a braille label, however I suspect this will change in the future, for example if you could have a smaller and more compact reading
[Audyssey] PCS was Re: Space Attack
Hi Ken, Are you sure about PCS Games having a space invaders-styled game? Were you meaning BSC Games and Troopanum perhaps? If I'm wrong and PCS does have a game like that, I don't remember it at the moment. Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia Show Host and Production Director The Global Voice Internet Radio www.theglobalvoice.info Personal Website: www.ksapergia.net Business Website (KJS Productions): www.kjsproductions.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
