Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Ah yes Tom, thanks for reminding me of the good old Apple days. That was my very first talking computer an Apple //E with an internal Echo running textalker plus. I got just about every accessory we could use for that system and let me tell you for it's day it was the cat's meow. While yes it was limited I wouldn't go so far as to call it crap I used it for a lot of things and it met my needs quite well for a number of years. It's biggest weakness was that for some reason programs like terminal software and word processors tended not to work with it so you had to buy special ones, the best terminal software called termtalk came from a company called Computer Aids Corp. which later turned into Blazie. All this took place back when if you said Jaws you were talking about a giant shark that ate people and nobody thought anything else. The reason that Jaws is so well recognized is mainly that FS is very good at pimping their products and that too many people are just not aware that there were other solutions available long before they came on the sceen, let alone now. As an access tech instructor I won't be a party to this misinformation and I am just glad I work somewhere that allows me to show clients the full range of solutions available. Ok sorry I will get off my soap box now. Game on. Tom -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:07 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Shaun, Oh, was it now? I hate to burst your bubble, but Jaws was not the first screen reader. Just the only one to gain national attention and claimed they were the first and only one for the blind. this is exactly the kind of ignorance BSVI and other agencies promote. For instance, when Windows 3.0/3.1 came out Slimware managed to put out Windowbridge before Jaws For Windows did. However, the state agencies were still buying Jaws for Dos since apparently ASAP, Vocal-Eyes, Dosbridge, etc didn't matter. When Jaws for Windows came out the state agencies rushed to snap it up even though there was another screen reader available for Windows at that time which was a good year or two further along in development.. If we go back to dos we can see similar things. There were other solutions available before Jaws for Dos, but it really was the best speech access solution at the time and that's why BSVI switched and other agencies started buying it. That's not true any more though. To give you an example of what I mean. Before I lost my vision I can remember using an Apple II-E with an Echovox which was out before Jaws. Granted the thing was a piece of crap, I'm not denying that, but the fact still remains speech access for the blind was there years before JFD was on the scene so to speak. On 4/29/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well It was for a while. Just like norton was the best software. But it all went down hill sort of. No one is the best now in this reguard. all readers have the same features. jaws has been round the longest and is recognised and recomended by most orgs and others as the standard which it is because it was the first. I should mention that I am extremely bias having only met about 3 others like myself in my life well 5. All of these bar 1 were in not the best situations. Though its fair to say the org I run with is still quite good, it has shifted some what from the old days but then everything has to shift and I can't really blame it. Its still not like the rnib but then its all opinion and I have never got anything from them bar books. I have just had bad experiencees with various agencies in the past so I am more to the against point of view than for. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
I've encountered the atitude that I don't use a cane because it shows I'm blind Actually this came up when i was applying for a guide dog last year (I'm stil on the list). the thing I find odd, is that I use a cane not for anyone else, or for appearence, but just for me! My sense of space (or lack of), frequently means I can't judge the distance of something even if I perceive or see it (and it'd have to be pretty close for me to see it). Looking as though I'm blind? I think i'd look far more stupid falling down a flight of stairs and breaking my nose, and as for danger, - well see the above comment! In terms of other people and taking up more pathway that rather confuses me, sinse certainly with the technique I use the cane tip is only 2 foot in front of my own feet and as wide as my body. There are certainly people, - , lets say larger in gurth than i am who probably take up more space overall ;D. I sometimes run into complaints when i'm out and about, not of me, just of disabled people in general (I think such people would complain equally if there was someone in a wheel chair coming down the street), but usually such people will get a very sharp answer indeed. beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
That's really quite bad Sean, and also probably not ultimately in your best interests, sinse I've found if you show yourself to be incapable people will (understandably), treat you as such, give no weight to your opinions, and not really reguard you as a person. last night I was at a lecture in the department and afterwards I went for a drink with people. yes, if i'd played the pathetic card I probably could've got someone to get me a chair, and probably a drink too, but would they have taken any comments I had on the paper seriously? hell no! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Thomas, That's cool that you broke all the rules. But you know some clients, especially maybe newly blind, may be feeling overwhelmed and so when their BSVI counselor told them not to use the new very expensive equipment that they just bought for them for anything other than what it was bought for, they may have been afraid that the counselor would find the games on the computer and take it all back. And then of course there are the clients that just try to get every single bit of stuff that they can suck out of the system. And maybe they didn't even want the stuff and don't care how they use or treat it all. And then maybe there are people like me that BSVI did not buy a single thing for. So since I bought every single bit of access technology that I own, I just make my own rules. TGIF and BFN Jim If you play by the rules, you're gonna miss all the fun. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Jim, Same here. Other than a few pieces of access software like Jaws, Megadots, and Openbook as well as a braille printer I purchased my first IBM PC and HP scanner out of my own money with some help from my family since it was to be used primarily for college etc. So since it was mine I could do anything i wanted to do with it, and BSVI etc had no say in the matter. I suppose some people feel that if they didn't pay for it themselves BSVI or whomever has the final say how that technology is to be used. I was never under that restriction. On 4/29/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Thomas, That's cool that you broke all the rules. But you know some clients, especially maybe newly blind, may be feeling overwhelmed and so when their BSVI counselor told them not to use the new very expensive equipment that they just bought for them for anything other than what it was bought for, they may have been afraid that the counselor would find the games on the computer and take it all back. And then of course there are the clients that just try to get every single bit of stuff that they can suck out of the system. And maybe they didn't even want the stuff and don't care how they use or treat it all. And then maybe there are people like me that BSVI did not buy a single thing for. So since I bought every single bit of access technology that I own, I just make my own rules. TGIF and BFN Jim If you play by the rules, you're gonna miss all the fun. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Shaun, Oh, was it now? I hate to burst your bubble, but Jaws was not the first screen reader. Just the only one to gain national attention and claimed they were the first and only one for the blind. this is exactly the kind of ignorance BSVI and other agencies promote. For instance, when Windows 3.0/3.1 came out Slimware managed to put out Windowbridge before Jaws For Windows did. However, the state agencies were still buying Jaws for Dos since apparently ASAP, Vocal-Eyes, Dosbridge, etc didn't matter. When Jaws for Windows came out the state agencies rushed to snap it up even though there was another screen reader available for Windows at that time which was a good year or two further along in development.. If we go back to dos we can see similar things. There were other solutions available before Jaws for Dos, but it really was the best speech access solution at the time and that's why BSVI switched and other agencies started buying it. That's not true any more though. To give you an example of what I mean. Before I lost my vision I can remember using an Apple II-E with an Echovox which was out before Jaws. Granted the thing was a piece of crap, I'm not denying that, but the fact still remains speech access for the blind was there years before JFD was on the scene so to speak. On 4/29/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well It was for a while. Just like norton was the best software. But it all went down hill sort of. No one is the best now in this reguard. all readers have the same features. jaws has been round the longest and is recognised and recomended by most orgs and others as the standard which it is because it was the first. I should mention that I am extremely bias having only met about 3 others like myself in my life well 5. All of these bar 1 were in not the best situations. Though its fair to say the org I run with is still quite good, it has shifted some what from the old days but then everything has to shift and I can't really blame it. Its still not like the rnib but then its all opinion and I have never got anything from them bar books. I have just had bad experiencees with various agencies in the past so I am more to the against point of view than for. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Heck, I remember amigar workbench came with it's own tts and voice back in the very early 90's, and often this was used by amigar developers to add a litle extra atmosphere to their games. there was for instance a public domain space war game called war, which mixed real time spaceship flying stratogy when you fought the enemy, with economic resource management and a litle military map stratogy thrown in. Actually it was quite cool spending money on developing your fleet than physically flying it into battle and dodging your opponents fire, it'd probably make a pretty cool audiogame. The thing that always amused me though, was that all text messages and turn reports were spoken by the very sarcastic, and not good quality amigar work bench tts voice. It was actually rather amusing when playing against the computer and you got an emotionless voice saying the human fleet has been destroyed, I am so sad I think I will commit suicide or I think your joystick is made of concrete as well as lots of other amusing commentss, --- -actually the badness of the synth voice made them funnier. Anyway, that game must've been around 1991 or 92, but the screen reading tech was there. About Hal's Early history and when versions came out i really don't know, sinse I first used a laptop with hal 3.1 and windows 3 in about 1994 at school at the age of 12, but obviously sinse that was Hal version 3, there were previous ones. In fact dolphin are celibrating their 25th aniversary at the moment so presumably they started in 1986! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Shaun, Oh, was it now? I hate to burst your bubble, but Jaws was not the first screen reader. Just the only one to gain national attention and claimed they were the first and only one for the blind. this is exactly the kind of ignorance BSVI and other agencies promote. For instance, when Windows 3.0/3.1 came out Slimware managed to put out Windowbridge before Jaws For Windows did. However, the state agencies were still buying Jaws for Dos since apparently ASAP, Vocal-Eyes, Dosbridge, etc didn't matter. When Jaws for Windows came out the state agencies rushed to snap it up even though there was another screen reader available for Windows at that time which was a good year or two further along in development.. If we go back to dos we can see similar things. There were other solutions available before Jaws for Dos, but it really was the best speech access solution at the time and that's why BSVI switched and other agencies started buying it. That's not true any more though. To give you an example of what I mean. Before I lost my vision I can remember using an Apple II-E with an Echovox which was out before Jaws. Granted the thing was a piece of crap, I'm not denying that, but the fact still remains speech access for the blind was there years before JFD was on the scene so to speak. On 4/29/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well It was for a while. Just like norton was the best software. But it all went down hill sort of. No one is the best now in this reguard. all readers have the same features. jaws has been round the longest and is recognised and recomended by most orgs and others as the standard which it is because it was the first. I should mention that I am extremely bias having only met about 3 others like myself in my life well 5. All of these bar 1 were in not the best situations. Though its fair to say the org I run with is still quite good, it has shifted some what from the old days but then everything has to shift and I can't really blame it. Its still not like the rnib but then its all opinion and I have never got anything from them bar books. I have just had bad experiencees with various agencies in the past so I am more to the against point of view than for. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Well what really saddens me are those that nver started off on a text based terminal like dos when they were young. If something went wrong you could change a file, reinstall part or all of the system including system files only, and other modules. The registry is heaven and hell. Its heaven because everything is in one place. Its hell for the same reason. If something dies chances are your os has had it. Basically in the old days well forget with windows. If something screws up and usually its quite big, reformatting will fix things. However its all it will do. You can't easily recover bits and pieces like you used to. And most don't even know what the command console is these days. They just run their systems. If it breaks, put in a disk, and reformat and the problem goes away. Fine, but no one is learning. Unless you do linux or take a course or both unless you were born in the early 90s like me or earlier you won't be able to handle things. In some ways I prefured a more modular approach to the system like dos though simple it never really crashed self. If the configs crashed you could skip it and clear it. Ofcause security wise with everything in the same place and all those linked libraries well thats another thing. ANd registry language is like an os in itself. At 05:24 p.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: Other thing relating to keyboard usage is that since started using computers, in my sighted days long before there was really such a thing as a mouse, and since spent most of my time later on typing code, I never really liked moving hands off the keyboard to use a mouse for something simple, so there are a couple of keyboard shortcuts have always used in windows that some relatively computer literate sighties don't seem to know exist, but I've always used them - simple examples are shift + delete to ignore/bypass recycle bin, and backspace to browse one level up in windows explorer, etc. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage yeah. Thats a point. The sighted use the mouse when the keyboard is faster. So being blind has some advantages. And we can do crazy things on our devices and can be the only one that knows what its all about. At 08:30 p.m. 28/04/2011, you wrote: A waiter at a restaurant this side once said the following to me after I explained some simple things to him like pouring level indicators, cellphones, our money measuring slide things, general living workarounds, etc.: you're not disabled - you're differently enabled Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Dark, Well, I think there are always a few that do meet the stereotypical view no matter where you go. I've met more than my share of the kind that want everything done for them etc at summer camp, blind conventions, etc but there are also plenty of people who don't meet this stereotypical view as well. I think a lot of it is just how you, as an individual are raised, and weather or not you were educated in a public school or a specialized school etc. I myself had had several years of useful vision so I was raised during my formative years as a normal child. I would help my dad out working on cars, computers, and other general electronics he would fix for friends at work etc. When I lost my sight my dad didn't go, I have a blind son who is helpless. No, on the contrary he incurraged me to continue helping him work on things in his work shop. Even if it was something as simple as locating the right size socket, rench, or screw driver, he wanted me to know and understand I was anything but helpless. In fact, he put me to work changing transmissions etc at age 17 without any useful vision at all which goes to prove how I had that little extra push some of the more institutionalized blind don't get I think. If you aren't actively incurraged to overcome the blindness thing you'll never quite get passed the I'm helpless mentality. Cheers! On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well Tom, I'm not sure how it is in the states, but over here there is one group of young blind people who do! conform to stomething of a sterriotype. I've noticed that some blind people (especially those who went to specialist schools), are! pretty useless, expect everything to be done for them, only associate with other blind people etc. That aside though I do know what you mean about organizations having specific ideas of blind people. For instance when I asked the rnib about using
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well the cane has limitations. Using it is not that bad. Some people are just rood thats all. Ofcause any big crouds and I can't really use any cane like funding events. Yes I can use it for so long but after that not a chance. I don't mind people noticing me being blind. Mostly its a blessing. people move out of my way, they chat to me for a while. They are friendly towards me. On the other hand people will critisise me for being blind or think I am helpless but at least in new zealand that almost never happens. At 06:09 p.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: I've encountered the atitude that I don't use a cane because it shows I'm blind Actually this came up when i was applying for a guide dog last year (I'm stil on the list). the thing I find odd, is that I use a cane not for anyone else, or for appearence, but just for me! My sense of space (or lack of), frequently means I can't judge the distance of something even if I perceive or see it (and it'd have to be pretty close for me to see it). Looking as though I'm blind? I think i'd look far more stupid falling down a flight of stairs and breaking my nose, and as for danger, - well see the above comment! In terms of other people and taking up more pathway that rather confuses me, sinse certainly with the technique I use the cane tip is only 2 foot in front of my own feet and as wide as my body. There are certainly people, - , lets say larger in gurth than i am who probably take up more space overall ;D. I sometimes run into complaints when i'm out and about, not of me, just of disabled people in general (I think such people would complain equally if there was someone in a wheel chair coming down the street), but usually such people will get a very sharp answer indeed. beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi, Besides the fact computers were very expensive in the 80's and 90's PC Dos and MS Dos really didn't get home users interested in computers. It actually forced the user to type something, a valid command like cd docs rather than just pointing and clicking on it. People are, well, sort of lazy, and for some people that was too much effort and to much to remember. IBM did try and resolve this issue starting with PC Dos 5 by introducing a graphical user interface for Dos called the Dos Shell that allowed them to point and click on things. However, computers really didn't become a household item until Windows 3.1 or 3.11 came out and the price of owning a PC came down in price and you could do a lot of stuff by point and clicking on buttons, icons, menus, etc. I admit when I was sighted I prefered a graphical user interface over Dos too. That's until I lost my sight and the commandline environment was more friendly, and pointing and clicking was not an option for me. However, Windows is popular because it makes things easy. You don't have to think about what your doing and can click on the little trash can to remove files from the recycle bin, or click on the little notebook icon to launch Notepad. Cheers! On 4/29/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well what really saddens me are those that nver started off on a text based terminal like dos when they were young. If something went wrong you could change a file, reinstall part or all of the system including system files only, and other modules. The registry is heaven and hell. Its heaven because everything is in one place. Its hell for the same reason. If something dies chances are your os has had it. Basically in the old days well forget with windows. If something screws up and usually its quite big, reformatting will fix things. However its all it will do. You can't easily recover bits and pieces like you used to. And most don't even know what the command console is these days. They just run their systems. If it breaks, put in a disk, and reformat and the problem goes away. Fine, but no one is learning. Unless you do linux or take a course or both unless you were born in the early 90s like me or earlier you won't be able to handle things. In some ways I prefured a more modular approach to the system like dos though simple it never really crashed self. If the configs crashed you could skip it and clear it. Ofcause security wise with everything in the same place and all those linked libraries well thats another thing. ANd registry language is like an os in itself. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Well I have changed since then. Don't think I would play the lazy card unless I was really tired, but then I know better now. At 06:22 p.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: That's really quite bad Sean, and also probably not ultimately in your best interests, sinse I've found if you show yourself to be incapable people will (understandably), treat you as such, give no weight to your opinions, and not really reguard you as a person. last night I was at a lecture in the department and afterwards I went for a drink with people. yes, if i'd played the pathetic card I probably could've got someone to get me a chair, and probably a drink too, but would they have taken any comments I had on the paper seriously? hell no! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
I got this from an hj interview cast released. All the big projects are mentioned the smaller ones were mentioned as not being that good. I wander if there is or should be a history of screenreaders since noone really knows what came first. jaws was the first big reader. But all the smaller ones are forgotten. keynote was the only reader for dos, mastertouch was big. But the rest I never heard about. At 11:06 p.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Oh, was it now? I hate to burst your bubble, but Jaws was not the first screen reader. Just the only one to gain national attention and claimed they were the first and only one for the blind. this is exactly the kind of ignorance BSVI and other agencies promote. For instance, when Windows 3.0/3.1 came out Slimware managed to put out Windowbridge before Jaws For Windows did. However, the state agencies were still buying Jaws for Dos since apparently ASAP, Vocal-Eyes, Dosbridge, etc didn't matter. When Jaws for Windows came out the state agencies rushed to snap it up even though there was another screen reader available for Windows at that time which was a good year or two further along in development.. If we go back to dos we can see similar things. There were other solutions available before Jaws for Dos, but it really was the best speech access solution at the time and that's why BSVI switched and other agencies started buying it. That's not true any more though. To give you an example of what I mean. Before I lost my vision I can remember using an Apple II-E with an Echovox which was out before Jaws. Granted the thing was a piece of crap, I'm not denying that, but the fact still remains speech access for the blind was there years before JFD was on the scene so to speak. On 4/29/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well It was for a while. Just like norton was the best software. But it all went down hill sort of. No one is the best now in this reguard. all readers have the same features. jaws has been round the longest and is recognised and recomended by most orgs and others as the standard which it is because it was the first. I should mention that I am extremely bias having only met about 3 others like myself in my life well 5. All of these bar 1 were in not the best situations. Though its fair to say the org I run with is still quite good, it has shifted some what from the old days but then everything has to shift and I can't really blame it. Its still not like the rnib but then its all opinion and I have never got anything from them bar books. I have just had bad experiencees with various agencies in the past so I am more to the against point of view than for. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well a game like that would rock. I wouldn't mind something like that. At 11:17 p.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: Heck, I remember amigar workbench came with it's own tts and voice back in the very early 90's, and often this was used by amigar developers to add a litle extra atmosphere to their games. there was for instance a public domain space war game called war, which mixed real time spaceship flying stratogy when you fought the enemy, with economic resource management and a litle military map stratogy thrown in. Actually it was quite cool spending money on developing your fleet than physically flying it into battle and dodging your opponents fire, it'd probably make a pretty cool audiogame. The thing that always amused me though, was that all text messages and turn reports were spoken by the very sarcastic, and not good quality amigar work bench tts voice. It was actually rather amusing when playing against the computer and you got an emotionless voice saying the human fleet has been destroyed, I am so sad I think I will commit suicide or I think your joystick is made of concrete as well as lots of other amusing commentss, --- -actually the badness of the synth voice made them funnier. Anyway, that game must've been around 1991 or 92, but the screen reading tech was there. About Hal's Early history and when versions came out i really don't know, sinse I first used a laptop with hal 3.1 and windows 3 in about 1994 at school at the age of 12, but obviously sinse that was Hal version 3, there were previous ones. In fact dolphin are celibrating their 25th aniversary at the moment so presumably they started in 1986! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Shaun, Oh, was it now? I hate to burst your bubble, but Jaws was not the first screen reader. Just the only one to gain national attention and claimed they were the first and only one for the blind. this is exactly the kind of ignorance BSVI and other agencies promote. For instance, when Windows 3.0/3.1 came out Slimware managed to put out Windowbridge before Jaws For Windows did. However, the state agencies were still buying Jaws for Dos since apparently ASAP, Vocal-Eyes, Dosbridge, etc didn't matter. When Jaws for Windows came out the state agencies rushed to snap it up even though there was another screen reader available for Windows at that time which was a good year or two further along in development.. If we go back to dos we can see similar things. There were other solutions available before Jaws for Dos, but it really was the best speech access solution at the time and that's why BSVI switched and other agencies started buying it. That's not true any more though. To give you an example of what I mean. Before I lost my vision I can remember using an Apple II-E with an Echovox which was out before Jaws. Granted the thing was a piece of crap, I'm not denying that, but the fact still remains speech access for the blind was there years before JFD was on the scene so to speak. On 4/29/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well It was for a while. Just like norton was the best software. But it all went down hill sort of. No one is the best now in this reguard. all readers have the same features. jaws has been round the longest and is recognised and recomended by most orgs and others as the standard which it is because it was the first. I should mention that I am extremely bias having only met about 3 others like myself in my life well 5. All of these bar 1 were in not the best situations. Though its fair to say the org I run with is still quite good, it has shifted some what from the old days but then everything has to shift and I can't really blame it. Its still not like the rnib but then its all opinion and I have never got anything from them bar books. I have just had bad experiencees with various agencies in the past so I am more to the against point of view than for. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Interestingly enough this came up recently. my mum asked someone she knows a computer related question of how to setup an E-mail account, on the basis that this person always uses her pc for chatting on msn and buying stuff online so she should know. the friend knew nothing because all she knew how to do was open something by point and click and type in the boxes. While I was a litle too young to get into command line options, after it was proved to me that computers could do more than just word process and could be fun, I actually started trying stuff out just to see what certain items and such did, as well as trying Hal commands. while I'd not claime to be a wizard at these things, i do at least know enough to for instance try a couple of things if something goes wrong and be able to fix basic problems now and again, such as the other day when my laptop decided to mute itself. This however does not seem to be the norm at all, people don't evenseem to know what certin things are called or where they are and the same goes for training. It really bothers me that when my mum was taught it skills, she was taught just to open ms word. She actually didn't even know what a folder was and that my documents was a folder in windows, rather she thought she could only get there by using word. This got even worse when she wanted to start using a digital camera and storing pictures on her hard drive sinse she had no idea about basic file moving skills at all as all she'd been taught to do was open word, none of actually what was going on undernieth. On one ocasion on the phone to bt who provide my internet, when trying to fix connection problems, they were telling me to click on a certain icon. i asked if they meant network connections, and they didn't know, sinse they didn't know what the icon was called only what it did, much less that there are other ways to getting to that particular page of settings than clicking the desktop icon. A shame really, especially when things go wrong. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Know what you mean. I used to install games on the college computers when I was still there, even though I'd already heard that playing games was forbidden in the library. No one took them off though, which was kind of cool. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 28 April 2011 23:16 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Jim, Interesting. That could always be. Perhaps some rehab counselors have some opinion that their clients should not put games on their machines. That's an attitude that is rediculous since they aren't hurting anything by being there, and as has been stated that doesn't stop the client from scanning books, using Office, or anything else that needs to get done for college, work, etc. Of course, if my counselor had told me something like that I'd have gone and done it anyway. My opinion use to be rules are made for breaking, and I broke a lot of them growing up. Lol! On 4/28/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
HI Dark, As someone who does tech support for a living I can say I've been their done that. I hate to sound critical or negative about my clients as they pay me to help them with things, but your points are very valid ones. Since the introduction of graphical operating systems like Windows the general skill level of the average user is abismal. they don't know what something is called half the time and only know how to get their by clicking on a certain icon, and you have to describe it to them. Which of course changes from version to version of Windows and desktop theme to desktop theme. So its pretty hard for me as a blind user who can't see all that eye candy to help them. I usually have to make them read the text on the icon so they click on the right thing. Usually, as you pointed out, it is basic things like dragging and dropping files, cutting and pasting documents from folder to folder, that these people lack. I think in many cases they just purchased their computer from Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Office Max, whatever turned it on and started pointing and clicking without any idea what in Hades they were doing. So as a result of any kind of training they just never figured out that the way they are using their computer is pretty limited and amateurish. Unlike Dos where you had to read a starters manual to do anything Windows lets them feel like they are doing something by clicking on icons and getting immediate results. What's this little notepad icon do? Oh, I can write text here. What's this little picture of a music cd do? Oh, I can play music cds with this program. What's this picture of a deck of cards do? Oh, its a game of Solitaire. That's how they find things out, and its limited as it doesn't really tell them how their computer works or gives them any real experience using all its functionality. Cheers! On 4/29/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Interestingly enough this came up recently. my mum asked someone she knows a computer related question of how to setup an E-mail account, on the basis that this person always uses her pc for chatting on msn and buying stuff online so she should know. the friend knew nothing because all she knew how to do was open something by point and click and type in the boxes. While I was a litle too young to get into command line options, after it was proved to me that computers could do more than just word process and could be fun, I actually started trying stuff out just to see what certain items and such did, as well as trying Hal commands. while I'd not claime to be a wizard at these things, i do at least know enough to for instance try a couple of things if something goes wrong and be able to fix basic problems now and again, such as the other day when my laptop decided to mute itself. This however does not seem to be the norm at all, people don't evenseem to know what certin things are called or where they are and the same goes for training. It really bothers me that when my mum was taught it skills, she was taught just to open ms word. She actually didn't even know what a folder was and that my documents was a folder in windows, rather she thought she could only get there by using word. This got even worse when she wanted to start using a digital camera and storing pictures on her hard drive sinse she had no idea about basic file moving skills at all as all she'd been taught to do was open word, none of actually what was going on undernieth. On one ocasion on the phone to bt who provide my internet, when trying to fix connection problems, they were telling me to click on a certain icon. i asked if they meant network connections, and they didn't know, sinse they didn't know what the icon was called only what it did, much less that there are other ways to getting to that particular page of settings than clicking the desktop icon. A shame really, especially when things go wrong. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
That's right on both cases. People could go in and use their computers. I think there were 8 of them. And, yes, it was insane. --- Shepherds are the best beasts! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Yet the center was open pon saturdays and people came to use their computers there? very insane! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage I was asked to try to get some blind people who frequently visited a center for the blind interested in audio games. I agreed. So I took some games, copied onto a CD, to the center and was going to install them onto their computers that the people were allowed to use during the week and on Saturdays. I was told that I could not do that because these were computers for business! use! only! I asked how these people are going to get interested in games that they cannot try out? The answer was, Well, don't you have them on your computer? You could bring your computer here, play the games while explaining what you're doing, then invite them to your house instead of having them come here on a Saturday, couldn't you? My answer, in great disgust, was a flat! out! no! It really made me disgusted, because the man that ran the center was totally blind himself. He would not install any games on his computer, either, because it, too was supposedly for business only. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
You just hit on the number one way Microsoft got so big with the pc. They made it moron proof by just click. I am currently training someone with sight on the computer. They are not doing to bad. I did get them to start thinking that just because the info shows up on the browser it is still not on the computer. Now if I could only get this mouser not to be so right click happy. At 08:38 AM 4/29/2011, you wrote: HI Dark, As someone who does tech support for a living I can say I've been their done that. I hate to sound critical or negative about my clients as they pay me to help them with things, but your points are very valid ones. Since the introduction of graphical operating systems like Windows the general skill level of the average user is abismal. they don't know what something is called half the time and only know how to get their by clicking on a certain icon, and you have to describe it to them. Which of course changes from version to version of Windows and desktop theme to desktop theme. So its pretty hard for me as a blind user who can't see all that eye candy to help them. I usually have to make them read the text on the icon so they click on the right thing. Usually, as you pointed out, it is basic things like dragging and dropping files, cutting and pasting documents from folder to folder, that these people lack. I think in many cases they just purchased their computer from Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Office Max, whatever turned it on and started pointing and clicking without any idea what in Hades they were doing. So as a result of any kind of training they just never figured out that the way they are using their computer is pretty limited and amateurish. Unlike Dos where you had to read a starters manual to do anything Windows lets them feel like they are doing something by clicking on icons and getting immediate results. What's this little notepad icon do? Oh, I can write text here. What's this little picture of a music cd do? Oh, I can play music cds with this program. What's this picture of a deck of cards do? Oh, its a game of Solitaire. That's how they find things out, and its limited as it doesn't really tell them how their computer works or gives them any real experience using all its functionality. Cheers! On 4/29/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Interestingly enough this came up recently. my mum asked someone she knows a computer related question of how to setup an E-mail account, on the basis that this person always uses her pc for chatting on msn and buying stuff online so she should know. the friend knew nothing because all she knew how to do was open something by point and click and type in the boxes. While I was a litle too young to get into command line options, after it was proved to me that computers could do more than just word process and could be fun, I actually started trying stuff out just to see what certain items and such did, as well as trying Hal commands. while I'd not claime to be a wizard at these things, i do at least know enough to for instance try a couple of things if something goes wrong and be able to fix basic problems now and again, such as the other day when my laptop decided to mute itself. This however does not seem to be the norm at all, people don't evenseem to know what certin things are called or where they are and the same goes for training. It really bothers me that when my mum was taught it skills, she was taught just to open ms word. She actually didn't even know what a folder was and that my documents was a folder in windows, rather she thought she could only get there by using word. This got even worse when she wanted to start using a digital camera and storing pictures on her hard drive sinse she had no idea about basic file moving skills at all as all she'd been taught to do was open word, none of actually what was going on undernieth. On one ocasion on the phone to bt who provide my internet, when trying to fix connection problems, they were telling me to click on a certain icon. i asked if they meant network connections, and they didn't know, sinse they didn't know what the icon was called only what it did, much less that there are other ways to getting to that particular page of settings than clicking the desktop icon. A shame really, especially when things go wrong. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Tim trouble Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. --Sam Brown
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Disconnect the mouse and put it in a drawer. Get students to be able to use the keyboard. --- Shepherds are the best beasts! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage You just hit on the number one way Microsoft got so big with the pc. They made it moron proof by just click. I am currently training someone with sight on the computer. They are not doing to bad. I did get them to start thinking that just because the info shows up on the browser it is still not on the computer. Now if I could only get this mouser not to be so right click happy. At 08:38 AM 4/29/2011, you wrote: HI Dark, As someone who does tech support for a living I can say I've been their done that. I hate to sound critical or negative about my clients as they pay me to help them with things, but your points are very valid ones. Since the introduction of graphical operating systems like Windows the general skill level of the average user is abismal. they don't know what something is called half the time and only know how to get their by clicking on a certain icon, and you have to describe it to them. Which of course changes from version to version of Windows and desktop theme to desktop theme. So its pretty hard for me as a blind user who can't see all that eye candy to help them. I usually have to make them read the text on the icon so they click on the right thing. Usually, as you pointed out, it is basic things like dragging and dropping files, cutting and pasting documents from folder to folder, that these people lack. I think in many cases they just purchased their computer from Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Office Max, whatever turned it on and started pointing and clicking without any idea what in Hades they were doing. So as a result of any kind of training they just never figured out that the way they are using their computer is pretty limited and amateurish. Unlike Dos where you had to read a starters manual to do anything Windows lets them feel like they are doing something by clicking on icons and getting immediate results. What's this little notepad icon do? Oh, I can write text here. What's this little picture of a music cd do? Oh, I can play music cds with this program. What's this picture of a deck of cards do? Oh, its a game of Solitaire. That's how they find things out, and its limited as it doesn't really tell them how their computer works or gives them any real experience using all its functionality. Cheers! On 4/29/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Interestingly enough this came up recently. my mum asked someone she knows a computer related question of how to setup an E-mail account, on the basis that this person always uses her pc for chatting on msn and buying stuff online so she should know. the friend knew nothing because all she knew how to do was open something by point and click and type in the boxes. While I was a litle too young to get into command line options, after it was proved to me that computers could do more than just word process and could be fun, I actually started trying stuff out just to see what certain items and such did, as well as trying Hal commands. while I'd not claime to be a wizard at these things, i do at least know enough to for instance try a couple of things if something goes wrong and be able to fix basic problems now and again, such as the other day when my laptop decided to mute itself. This however does not seem to be the norm at all, people don't evenseem to know what certin things are called or where they are and the same goes for training. It really bothers me that when my mum was taught it skills, she was taught just to open ms word. She actually didn't even know what a folder was and that my documents was a folder in windows, rather she thought she could only get there by using word. This got even worse when she wanted to start using a digital camera and storing pictures on her hard drive sinse she had no idea about basic file moving skills at all as all she'd been taught to do was open word, none of actually what was going on undernieth. On one ocasion on the phone to bt who provide my internet, when trying to fix connection problems, they were telling me to click on a certain icon. i asked if they meant network connections, and they didn't know, sinse they didn't know what the icon was called only what it did, much less that there are other ways to getting to that particular page of settings than clicking the desktop icon. A shame really, especially when things go wrong. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
You can also try turning off the screen. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: 29 April 2011 15:21 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Disconnect the mouse and put it in a drawer. Get students to be able to use the keyboard. --- Shepherds are the best beasts! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage You just hit on the number one way Microsoft got so big with the pc. They made it moron proof by just click. I am currently training someone with sight on the computer. They are not doing to bad. I did get them to start thinking that just because the info shows up on the browser it is still not on the computer. Now if I could only get this mouser not to be so right click happy. At 08:38 AM 4/29/2011, you wrote: HI Dark, As someone who does tech support for a living I can say I've been their done that. I hate to sound critical or negative about my clients as they pay me to help them with things, but your points are very valid ones. Since the introduction of graphical operating systems like Windows the general skill level of the average user is abismal. they don't know what something is called half the time and only know how to get their by clicking on a certain icon, and you have to describe it to them. Which of course changes from version to version of Windows and desktop theme to desktop theme. So its pretty hard for me as a blind user who can't see all that eye candy to help them. I usually have to make them read the text on the icon so they click on the right thing. Usually, as you pointed out, it is basic things like dragging and dropping files, cutting and pasting documents from folder to folder, that these people lack. I think in many cases they just purchased their computer from Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Office Max, whatever turned it on and started pointing and clicking without any idea what in Hades they were doing. So as a result of any kind of training they just never figured out that the way they are using their computer is pretty limited and amateurish. Unlike Dos where you had to read a starters manual to do anything Windows lets them feel like they are doing something by clicking on icons and getting immediate results. What's this little notepad icon do? Oh, I can write text here. What's this little picture of a music cd do? Oh, I can play music cds with this program. What's this picture of a deck of cards do? Oh, its a game of Solitaire. That's how they find things out, and its limited as it doesn't really tell them how their computer works or gives them any real experience using all its functionality. Cheers! On 4/29/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Interestingly enough this came up recently. my mum asked someone she knows a computer related question of how to setup an E-mail account, on the basis that this person always uses her pc for chatting on msn and buying stuff online so she should know. the friend knew nothing because all she knew how to do was open something by point and click and type in the boxes. While I was a litle too young to get into command line options, after it was proved to me that computers could do more than just word process and could be fun, I actually started trying stuff out just to see what certain items and such did, as well as trying Hal commands. while I'd not claime to be a wizard at these things, i do at least know enough to for instance try a couple of things if something goes wrong and be able to fix basic problems now and again, such as the other day when my laptop decided to mute itself. This however does not seem to be the norm at all, people don't evenseem to know what certin things are called or where they are and the same goes for training. It really bothers me that when my mum was taught it skills, she was taught just to open ms word. She actually didn't even know what a folder was and that my documents was a folder in windows, rather she thought she could only get there by using word. This got even worse when she wanted to start using a digital camera and storing pictures on her hard drive sinse she had no idea about basic file moving skills at all as all she'd been taught to do was open word, none of actually what was going on undernieth. On one ocasion on the phone to bt who provide my internet, when trying to fix connection problems, they were telling me to click on a certain icon. i asked if they meant network connections, and they didn't know, sinse they didn't know what the icon was called only what it did, much less that there are other ways to getting to that particular page of settings than
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well I have always learned what i call mouse to keyboard translation. I know left click is same is arrowing to highlight the item. double is enter on it right click is the app key. Learning what things are layout is important also the menus. If someone tells me click on this icon in the corner of the screen with a blue envelope then I can't really know that. If they tell me the name, or simular visual refference then I know what I need to do to get to what they mean though I tell them that it may take a couple seconds to get there. One thing with windows is the fact stand controls have shortcuts and stuff so you may tell me to click this and that and fill in this stuff and hit that button however as long as its standard controls and labeled, it may take me time but I am translating it to blind or keyboard procedures to the point where I tell even blind people to click and point to this and that. If they don't know I tell them my translation key. You do need to know standard controls and keyboard layout of a semi modern board though. At 12:03 a.m. 30/04/2011, you wrote: Interestingly enough this came up recently. my mum asked someone she knows a computer related question of how to setup an E-mail account, on the basis that this person always uses her pc for chatting on msn and buying stuff online so she should know. the friend knew nothing because all she knew how to do was open something by point and click and type in the boxes. While I was a litle too young to get into command line options, after it was proved to me that computers could do more than just word process and could be fun, I actually started trying stuff out just to see what certain items and such did, as well as trying Hal commands. while I'd not claime to be a wizard at these things, i do at least know enough to for instance try a couple of things if something goes wrong and be able to fix basic problems now and again, such as the other day when my laptop decided to mute itself. This however does not seem to be the norm at all, people don't evenseem to know what certin things are called or where they are and the same goes for training. It really bothers me that when my mum was taught it skills, she was taught just to open ms word. She actually didn't even know what a folder was and that my documents was a folder in windows, rather she thought she could only get there by using word. This got even worse when she wanted to start using a digital camera and storing pictures on her hard drive sinse she had no idea about basic file moving skills at all as all she'd been taught to do was open word, none of actually what was going on undernieth. On one ocasion on the phone to bt who provide my internet, when trying to fix connection problems, they were telling me to click on a certain icon. i asked if they meant network connections, and they didn't know, sinse they didn't know what the icon was called only what it did, much less that there are other ways to getting to that particular page of settings than clicking the desktop icon. A shame really, especially when things go wrong. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Shaun, You know, that's about the most insulting comment I've heard from you in a while. We should not be putting our fellow blind brothers/sisters down for belonging to an institution or being unaware of what alternatives their are. The entire point Dark was trying to make about the RNIB and other organizations like them is that they don't often make their clients aware of what is available to them regardless if they fit the stereotypical view or not. For instance, back in the mid 1990's when I started really loosing my sight BSVI enrolled me in a technology training program to be shown things like Jaws, Openbook, braille displays, and things like that. I remember clearly asking my trainer if there were any other screen readers besides Jaws and he replied that there were other screen readers but none of them were very good. Jaws was the only one that was any good, and why BSVI recommended it to their clients. So I believed him, and took his statement as fact. Well fast foward to a couple years later. I am now taking a class in C++, and I had to use Borland's Turbo C++ for class. I could not get Jaws for Dos to work properly with the C++ compiler. I was on a campis wide broadband connection so decided to check out other screen readers like Vocal-Eyes, ASAP, etc. Turns out that Vocal-Eyes worked with Borland C++ where Jaws for Dos wouldn't. Plus since Vocal-Eyes was easier to customize than Jaws, no need to write scripts to configure it for an app, I managed to get through my course using a screen reader other than Jaws. That lead me to downloadand try everything from Window-Eyes to ASAW and see if my recommendation from the experts were true. Fact is the experts were flat out wrong. Today I am now a happy Window-Eyes user, and I rarely if ever use Jaws. However, my point is the same as Dark's. I was caught up in the institutional line, was sold on the idea Jaws is the absolute best, and that wasn't necessarily true. In fact, today with Window-Eyes and Hal becoming equal to and sometimes better than Jaws that's definitely not true. I wouldn't have known that or had reason to look elsewhere if it hadn't been for an app I couldn't get Jaws to use, and decided on a whim to try something else and see if it works. I was certainly not to blame for not knowing any better, and in a sense I was lied to. This is what the RNIB etc are doing evrytime they give deference to someone like Azabat without at least representing other game companies games too. Laughing at our fellow blind brothers/sisters for their ignorance of such things really shows how immature you are. Cheers! On 4/27/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well I know for a fact that we have better stuff like as a bat. Its disgusting that an org caters for the poor blind stereo type. Not only that but inferior titles really since simular games, like kitchensinc are out. Then there is the rsgames client and quentin c playroom for online play. These are free and hello! better than that or something I don't know because I don't play as a poor blind persons games. My suggestion is to let well alone. They want to cater for the poor blind, let them, there are plenty of poor blind people that want to be poor blind. And since they can't see anything bar the poor blind the rest of us can laugh about their sillyness and they won't even give a screw. And they won't change. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark, Well, I think there are always a few that do meet the stereotypical view no matter where you go. I've met more than my share of the kind that want everything done for them etc at summer camp, blind conventions, etc but there are also plenty of people who don't meet this stereotypical view as well. I think a lot of it is just how you, as an individual are raised, and weather or not you were educated in a public school or a specialized school etc. I myself had had several years of useful vision so I was raised during my formative years as a normal child. I would help my dad out working on cars, computers, and other general electronics he would fix for friends at work etc. When I lost my sight my dad didn't go, I have a blind son who is helpless. No, on the contrary he incurraged me to continue helping him work on things in his work shop. Even if it was something as simple as locating the right size socket, rench, or screw driver, he wanted me to know and understand I was anything but helpless. In fact, he put me to work changing transmissions etc at age 17 without any useful vision at all which goes to prove how I had that little extra push some of the more institutionalized blind don't get I think. If you aren't actively incurraged to overcome the blindness thing you'll never quite get passed the I'm helpless mentality. Cheers! On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well Tom, I'm not sure how it is in the states, but over here there is one group of young blind people who do! conform to stomething of a sterriotype. I've noticed that some blind people (especially those who went to specialist schools), are! pretty useless, expect everything to be done for them, only associate with other blind people etc. That aside though I do know what you mean about organizations having specific ideas of blind people. For instance when I asked the rnib about using a chip and pin card, their response was that I learn one cash machine near my home, but when i pointed out machines can come in different makes and models with different screen prompts and such, they told me to Get my carer to do it rather hard, sinse I live on my own and don't have one, which surprised them ;D. In the end I just fixed things myself by arranging with my bank to have a signature card, so that machines will print out a receit for me to sign when I pay for stuff with it and I can just get actual cash at my local bank. My point though, the rnib had no idea of a blind person living entirely alone and not! having a carer The problem is this atitude is contagious. When I was trying to activate the wireless network on my hub but couldn't due to not being able to read the key on the side, when I phoned the company tech support they told me to get someone to read it for me and when I pointed out there wasn't they said that what other blind people do and put the phone down on me. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Thankfully in Poland I actually find window-eyes has the upper hand, though I know quite a few dolphin and jaws users as well. and of course nvda. Though as far as phones symbian is still popular around here unlike in the States where the iPhone is taking the blind community like a storm, but it doesnt mean the blind iOS community in Poland isn't growing. - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Sounds disturbingly like what most agencies here in the US do with regard to screen readers. THey teach JAWS and unless you happen to get really lucky and get a rehab counselor with a reasonable amount of common sense the don't even tell you that you have other options out there. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
A waiter at a restaurant this side once said the following to me after I explained some simple things to him like pouring level indicators, cellphones, our money measuring slide things, general living workarounds, etc.: you're not disabled - you're differently enabled Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Dark, Well, I think there are always a few that do meet the stereotypical view no matter where you go. I've met more than my share of the kind that want everything done for them etc at summer camp, blind conventions, etc but there are also plenty of people who don't meet this stereotypical view as well. I think a lot of it is just how you, as an individual are raised, and weather or not you were educated in a public school or a specialized school etc. I myself had had several years of useful vision so I was raised during my formative years as a normal child. I would help my dad out working on cars, computers, and other general electronics he would fix for friends at work etc. When I lost my sight my dad didn't go, I have a blind son who is helpless. No, on the contrary he incurraged me to continue helping him work on things in his work shop. Even if it was something as simple as locating the right size socket, rench, or screw driver, he wanted me to know and understand I was anything but helpless. In fact, he put me to work changing transmissions etc at age 17 without any useful vision at all which goes to prove how I had that little extra push some of the more institutionalized blind don't get I think. If you aren't actively incurraged to overcome the blindness thing you'll never quite get passed the I'm helpless mentality. Cheers! On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well Tom, I'm not sure how it is in the states, but over here there is one group of young blind people who do! conform to stomething of a sterriotype. I've noticed that some blind people (especially those who went to specialist schools), are! pretty useless, expect everything to be done for them, only associate with other blind people etc. That aside though I do know what you mean about organizations having specific ideas of blind people. For instance when I asked the rnib about using a chip and pin card, their response was that I learn one cash machine near my home, but when i pointed out machines can come in different makes and models with different screen prompts and such, they told me to Get my carer to do it rather hard, sinse I live on my own and don't have one, which surprised them ;D. In the end I just fixed things myself by arranging with my bank to have a signature card, so that machines will print out a receit for me to sign when I pay for stuff with it and I can just get actual cash at my local bank. My point though, the rnib had no idea of a blind person living entirely alone and not! having a carer The problem is this atitude is contagious. When I was trying to activate the wireless network on my hub but couldn't due to not being able to read the key on the side, when I phoned the company tech support they told me to get someone to read it for me and when I pointed out there wasn't they said that what other blind people do and put the phone down on me. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
To those who say that their computer are for business only, ask them why games are included as a portion of Windows on all computers. --- Shepherds are the best beasts! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi, Yeah, I've met a few narrow minded individuals like that. I was at a blind convention in Columbus one time, and I talked to a few other blind computer users there about the fact that I write accessible games and their opinions were a bit odd. One guy told me that since his computer was purchased by BSVI, I.E. through the state, that it was to only be used for work and nothing but work. Another common opinion I found, especially with older blind computer users, was that games were for younger people. The other Tom said earlier on list he has encountered this same opinion as well up in Canada so it must be pretty common among our more senior members. The thing is even if you make some of these people aware of the existance of accessible games not everyone is going to jump for it. There will be some opinion like my computer must only be used for work or games are only for the young that will determine their buying choices. That said, though, my parents generation, the Baby Boomers, are now getting up their in age. As Elenor's excellent article for 7-128 pointed out these are the people with most of the buying power world wide. They are going to start having health issues, especially vision loss, and the mainstream game industry isn't prepared for this eventuality. The rest of us who are creating accessible games will at least have a chance to get a real foot in the door if we can make this segment of the population aware we exist. We often forget that it was the Baby Boomers who were in their 30's when the Atari 2600 and original Nintendo Entertainment System was introduced in the 1980's. Unlike their parents generation they played Donkey Kong, Packman, Missile Command, Super Mario, and all the rest with their kids who are now my age. So now that my parents are old enough to retire what kinds of games are out there for them to play that isn't loded with complex 3d graphics, and is fully accessible when their vision begins to go? What kinds of games are available that harkens back to the games they know and love like Packman, Space Invaders, Missile Command, Super Mario, Donkey Kong, Time Pilot, Adventure Island, etc? Well, we've obviously got some of that available right now. DynaMan is basically an arcade game in the style of classic Packman. PCS Games Packman Talks is another great remake for the blind. As for Space Invaders we have Aliens in the Outback, Troopenum, Dark Destroyer, you name it. Since we already have some of the games they are likely to play it is rediculous that places like the RNIB aren't making the Baby Boomer generation aware that there are games on par with the games they knew 30 years ago. Cheers! On 4/27/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: not to mention that some blind people refuse to play games in general or associate with the wider community. One of these is a friend that has quentin c because i have her the file but mostly plays with rsgames clients. But thats it and only because people gave it to her one day. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
True tom, and this is another reason I'm so anxious to make people know that more than just azabat exist. The computer is just for work thing is actually an interesting, and rather depressing, one. I myself actually went through a similar notion when I first got my laptop provided by my student grant to do my degree with. In my case it wasn't based upon a moral idea, but on an assumption I had. I'd obviously played console games for years, and while I knew pc games existed, I assumed most were modern hyper graphical affairs which I myself would find unplayable. I'd only ever used my computer to essentially do word processing at school, so the idea of playing even textual games was one that simply hadn't occurred to me, in my brain computers and school work were sort of absolutely associated with each other. if I wanted to play a game, i needed a console. it wasn't until I heard of the www.whitestick.co.uk's games to play online page that I started thinking that I could actually have some fun with my computer. interestingly enough though, it was this that also got me playing around with computers and with the net, and trying to work out how to do things, and these are skills I've needed. For instance, many online brouser games require use of complex page navigation. When i read spinoza online, there were so many references, footnotes and goodness knows what the page was cluttered as heck. If I hadn't been used at that point to using all of Hal's read page commands on a webpage, i could've been rather confused indeed! There is currently a copy of my thesis saved on sendspace in case I had a fire. however had I not played games, I'd have never heard about file sharing and never had this idea to use it as a backup. But nobody is going to sit there and practice ways in their spare time of learning how to do their work better, and even if a person has training, the training won't teach them to start experimenting and trying different things out, nor will they be inclined to do so in their spare time. If computers were just for work, why do operating systems come with preinstalled games like hearts, solitare, pinball etc? On a moral level, there are certainly cases of people I've heard of who screw over the equipment system to try and get what they want out of it. The r09 digital recorder I used to make podcasts and such was actually provided by my student grant, and what I use it mostly for is to have people read me gernal articals which I can then record. Because however I knew I'd be using the recorder for fun, I found the price of the olympus mono voice recorder which would've served exactly my needs for my phd, but would've been no good in terms of making podcasts etc, got my grant to pay that and paid the extra 70 quid or so for the r09 with it's sterrio mikes myself. So I do have sympathy for this position as it ultimately comes out of a sense of fairness. However, while I do agree it would be wrong to have a computer bought just to play games on, so long as the state are not expected to pay more for your recreation, why not? does everyone in business delete all games from their operating system? heck, I've regularly seen very professional business type people on trains doing crosswords in the papers. While I do agree the state has no financial obligation to let you play games, once the computer is bought, the money is spent and the state's obligation is pretty much over and done with. the equipment is now yours to use for whatever, so long as the state isn't paying more money. What you do with your computer outside work is only your business, you might as well ask all those people who sit on trains why their not working and why they're doing crosswords in work time. this is generally one of the largest differences I've noticed in the atitudes of disabled people. Because a computer is provided for work and training is focused that way, either there is a moral idea, or as in my case just an assumption, tht you don't do anything else with it. That's also why people fail to practice skills, sinse quite obviously you'll learn to do, and practice something a good bit more if your doing it for fun as well as work. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Tom. well I must confess I don't associate particularly with younger blind people in this country other than some I've met through this list or online precisely because they can become extremely cleaquey, have lacking or none existant social skills, fail to do things for themselves and regard anyone outside their group with suspicion. For instance I know somebody who flat out was amazed at the idea of me making coffee without! a liquid level indicator, sinse the indicator won't fit on the cafetieir I don't particularly have a choice, and when I mentioned how fond I was of my George forman they nearly went into fits at the idea of a blind person using something so dangerous! I'll admit that I have something of a prejudice against this sort of blind! people myself, which actually comes from the two years I spent betwene 8 and 10 at a specialist school which was positively victorian (my teacher was a dead ringer for prof umbridge in the harry potter series). the problem is this sort of thing can really cause problems with other people's atitudes. I was at the Aims music school a week ago which is a very high standard teaching course for professional and semi professional singers. i went last august so I now know people relatively well. The odd thing is I did notice a bit of distance in some people's atitudes and this time I found out why. Apparently they had two blind girls attend previously who one of the ladies in charge described as dire! they for instance complained bitterly at nont having an en sweet bathroom when in fact none of the rooms do, and when in fact the organizer had given them a room slap bang next to the bathroom. She described them as tremendously rude, complaining if stuff wasn't done for them, yet getting very unpleasant if people offered to help with anything. Then though she did note that sinse I was at university and had (she worked out), been to a normal school she assumed I was different. I will confess this is the reason that outside this list and people I meet related to games, I actually don't have much to do with other blind people in the uk, sinse I always find myself feeling irritated at some of the atitudes involved. Interestingly enough, my mum went through the specialist system and out the other side. she was told for instance in the 70's, when she finished school and was looking at university typing, telephony or physio therapy that's why even though i attended a specialist school for two years I wasn't a full time boarder there, and also why I've probably grown up with a rather different atitude to some other people who have hereditory site conditions. Also why I've ended up working on disability as my main research interest. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
It's not just people in the UK... in Canada, it can be a lot of the same.. it all depends on what kind of system you get put in. We only have one school for the blind in Canada... and a lot of the people I've sceen come out of that are some of the cockiest and most stuck up people... and social skills? Don't even get me started. All I can say is I'm glad I went to regular high school, as the school for the blind is across the country from me, in Ontario. Oddly enough though, blind people who are raised in Asian families tend to be the exact opposite. We're raised to think nothing of ourselves and because the Asian belief is that anyone with any sort of disability is basically helpless, a lot of blind people or people with other disabilities tend to adopt that view. Everything is done for us, and we get almost no say in anything... I'm glad I broke that mold. lol. My family still can't accept that I can do so many of the things I do... taking buses, cooking, you name it. It's pretty ridiculous... luckily the majority of the blind people I deal with don't exhibit any of the attitude and characteristics that you mentioned. At 07:11 AM 28/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Tom. well I must confess I don't associate particularly with younger blind people in this country other than some I've met through this list or online precisely because they can become extremely cleaquey, have lacking or none existant social skills, fail to do things for themselves and regard anyone outside their group with suspicion. For instance I know somebody who flat out was amazed at the idea of me making coffee without! a liquid level indicator, sinse the indicator won't fit on the cafetieir I don't particularly have a choice, and when I mentioned how fond I was of my George forman they nearly went into fits at the idea of a blind person using something so dangerous! I'll admit that I have something of a prejudice against this sort of blind! people myself, which actually comes from the two years I spent betwene 8 and 10 at a specialist school which was positively victorian (my teacher was a dead ringer for prof umbridge in the harry potter series). the problem is this sort of thing can really cause problems with other people's atitudes. I was at the Aims music school a week ago which is a very high standard teaching course for professional and semi professional singers. i went last august so I now know people relatively well. The odd thing is I did notice a bit of distance in some people's atitudes and this time I found out why. Apparently they had two blind girls attend previously who one of the ladies in charge described as dire! they for instance complained bitterly at nont having an en sweet bathroom when in fact none of the rooms do, and when in fact the organizer had given them a room slap bang next to the bathroom. She described them as tremendously rude, complaining if stuff wasn't done for them, yet getting very unpleasant if people offered to help with anything. Then though she did note that sinse I was at university and had (she worked out), been to a normal school she assumed I was different. I will confess this is the reason that outside this list and people I meet related to games, I actually don't have much to do with other blind people in the uk, sinse I always find myself feeling irritated at some of the atitudes involved. Interestingly enough, my mum went through the specialist system and out the other side. she was told for instance in the 70's, when she finished school and was looking at university typing, telephony or physio therapy that's why even though i attended a specialist school for two years I wasn't a full time boarder there, and also why I've probably grown up with a rather different atitude to some other people who have hereditory site conditions. Also why I've ended up working on disability as my main research interest. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Nice to here though that some alternatives to the shark exist. I remember actually in about 2003, I had played some if, and was trying to look into playing muds. I mailed someone at alterean just being generally confused about the hole thing and their response was to pass the mail to one of their blind users who first off sent me some jaws scripts. i enquired about use with hal or an alternative, but all this person could tell me was related to using the game with mushclient and jaws. i did in fact try Alterean with hal but found that this was one of the occasions when I needed the program to keep in sink with and pick up text from the mud as it appeared sinse otherwise I'd be behind what was going on. I therefore gave up on the idea of muds entirely. I didn't even know such a thing as self voicing or ms sapi existed at that point at all, and I was of course stil using a machine with windows 98, so there were no automatic options either. Had the person let me know that options with Sapi existed, well things might've been rather different but because they just assumed that everyone used Jaws, I completely missed out on this entirely. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark, I think you are absolutely right. I believe a lot of the computer for work type attitude largely comes from a misguided sense of fairness or responcibility. Especially, when the computer in question is purchased by the state for a specific purpose like school or work. In the mind of the user its their property not mine so better treat it that way. Plus since all of the state training is geared that way its no wonder some people get the notion that the computer should primarily be their for work and not play. The reason I say that is I have a very good friend I met in college about 12 years ago, and he expressed a similar opinion. He had just gotten his new computer, Jaws, etc from BSVI and I was all set to hook him up with various accessible games. He surprised me with his responce. He basically felt since that the computer equipment was purchased through BSVI that it wasn't really his property, and since it was purchased to help him with work that he shouldn't put games and stuff like that on it. Maybe when he got his own computer he'd look at getting accessible games. It wasn't so much the fact he didn't want games, but a bit of misguided sense of responcibility that made him treat the computer as the state's property rather than his own. In his mind since BSVI actually paid for it then it wasn't his place to put extra stuff like games on it. I wonder how many other blind computer users have this opinion when recieving equipment via cherity, state agency, etc. However, you are right. Companies don't always delete the free games from their computers. Maybe some do, but let's face it. Most of them understand if the secretary is on break she has the right to pull up a quick game of Hearts, Solitaire, whatever if she wants too. Having the freedom to sit back an relax for 15 minutes is the entire point of 15 minute breaks. It doesn't matter weather the employee uses the rest room, gets a cup of coffee from the break room, plays solitaire, as long as the employee doesn't do those things during normal work time. I think many VI computer users forget that fact. We all need a break from the grind of day to day work, and the computer can be used for both. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Very well said Tom. One minor correction I actually live in central California not Canada. Game on. Tom -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:32 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi, Yeah, I've met a few narrow minded individuals like that. I was at a blind convention in Columbus one time, and I talked to a few other blind computer users there about the fact that I write accessible games and their opinions were a bit odd. One guy told me that since his computer was purchased by BSVI, I.E. through the state, that it was to only be used for work and nothing but work. Another common opinion I found, especially with older blind computer users, was that games were for younger people. The other Tom said earlier on list he has encountered this same opinion as well up in Canada so it must be pretty common among our more senior members. The thing is even if you make some of these people aware of the existance of accessible games not everyone is going to jump for it. There will be some opinion like my computer must only be used for work or games are only for the young that will determine their buying choices. That said, though, my parents generation, the Baby Boomers, are now getting up their in age. As Elenor's excellent article for 7-128 pointed out these are the people with most of the buying power world wide. They are going to start having health issues, especially vision loss, and the mainstream game industry isn't prepared for this eventuality. The rest of us who are creating accessible games will at least have a chance to get a real foot in the door if we can make this segment of the population aware we exist. We often forget that it was the Baby Boomers who were in their 30's when the Atari 2600 and original Nintendo Entertainment System was introduced in the 1980's. Unlike their parents generation they played Donkey Kong, Packman, Missile Command, Super Mario, and all the rest with their kids who are now my age. So now that my parents are old enough to retire what kinds of games are out there for them to play that isn't loded with complex 3d graphics, and is fully accessible when their vision begins to go? What kinds of games are available that harkens back to the games they know and love like Packman, Space Invaders, Missile Command, Super Mario, Donkey Kong, Time Pilot, Adventure Island, etc? Well, we've obviously got some of that available right now. DynaMan is basically an arcade game in the style of classic Packman. PCS Games Packman Talks is another great remake for the blind. As for Space Invaders we have Aliens in the Outback, Troopenum, Dark Destroyer, you name it. Since we already have some of the games they are likely to play it is rediculous that places like the RNIB aren't making the Baby Boomer generation aware that there are games on par with the games they knew 30 years ago. Cheers! On 4/27/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: not to mention that some blind people refuse to play games in general or associate with the wider community. One of these is a friend that has quentin c because i have her the file but mostly plays with rsgames clients. But thats it and only because people gave it to her one day. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi tom. I was thinking about this issue, and one question to ask people did occur to me. Say you were paraplegic and a state agency bought you a wheel chair. Would you effectively not use that chair to go anywhere fun just because the state bought it for you? There are lots of similar cases you might be able to come up with. my view is so long as your not actually charging the state extra cash for your recreation that's fine! Pluss of course, once something is bought and paid for, you own it! Part of my original student grant bought me a cane which I needed to walk around uni and go to lectures with. Should I have left that cane at home if I was going anywhere not work related? Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark. Myself I was mainstreamed during all my grade school and high school and I pretty much didn't know any other blind kids I just ran around with the sighted kids and didn't think anything of it. I had good light perception so I actually did not start to learn to navigate with a cane until the sixth grade and didn't start really needing to use it until high school when my light perception started to gradually go away. It wasn't until I started college that I started gradually hanging out with more blind people although the majority of my friends were still sighted. For the most part those of us who were going to college were the pretty independent sort although I've certainly met my share of the ones that you describe. And yes I agree with you that they give the sighted world, which whether we like it or not which most of the time I like it just fine is the world we live in, have a pretty crummy opinion of us. There are other words I could use but I'm keeping my language polite. Anyhow it's kind of funny I now actually have at least as many if not more blind friends/acquaintances than sighted ones. Partly this is of course due to where I work, and it is probably also due to the fact that I'm long since out of college and have unfortunately lost touch with most of my old college chums. Anyhow, I realize this is starting to stray pretty far from the topic of gaming but it is a fascinating discussion in my opinion so if you wish to continue it off-list that would be cool with me, I realize that probably not everyone is interested in this. Well that's about all for now, I need to go make fresh food for Xena our female green iguana. Oh gods below! That will require me to work with food processors and sharp knives! Let's hope I don't cut all my fingers off, won't be much good for gaming if I do. Game on. Tom -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 7:12 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Tom. well I must confess I don't associate particularly with younger blind people in this country other than some I've met through this list or online precisely because they can become extremely cleaquey, have lacking or none existant social skills, fail to do things for themselves and regard anyone outside their group with suspicion. For instance I know somebody who flat out was amazed at the idea of me making coffee without! a liquid level indicator, sinse the indicator won't fit on the cafetieir I don't particularly have a choice, and when I mentioned how fond I was of my George forman they nearly went into fits at the idea of a blind person using something so dangerous! I'll admit that I have something of a prejudice against this sort of blind! people myself, which actually comes from the two years I spent betwene 8 and 10 at a specialist school which was positively victorian (my teacher was a dead ringer for prof umbridge in the harry potter series). the problem is this sort of thing can really cause problems with other people's atitudes. I was at the Aims music school a week ago which is a very high standard teaching course for professional and semi professional singers. i went last august so I now know people relatively well. The odd thing is I did notice a bit of distance in some people's atitudes and this time I found out why. Apparently they had two blind girls attend previously who one of the ladies in charge described as dire! they for instance complained bitterly at nont having an en sweet bathroom when in fact none of the rooms do, and when in fact the organizer had given them a room slap bang next to the bathroom. She described them as tremendously rude, complaining if stuff wasn't done for them, yet getting very unpleasant if people offered to help with anything. Then though she did note that sinse I was at university and had (she worked out), been to a normal school she assumed I was different. I will confess this is the reason that outside this list and people I meet related to games, I actually don't have much to do with other blind people in the uk, sinse I always find myself feeling irritated at some of the atitudes involved. Interestingly enough, my mum went through the specialist system and out the other side. she was told for instance in the 70's, when she finished school and was looking at university typing, telephony or physio therapy that's why even though i attended a specialist school for two years I wasn't a full time boarder there, and also why I've probably grown up with a rather different atitude to some other people who have hereditory site conditions. Also why I've ended up working on disability as my main research interest. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark, Ah, but I think you already know the answer to that. Someone might make a case something as basic as a wheelchair or white cane is a necessary item for day to day travel, not only for your personal safety, but for basic mobility. Something like game x is not necessary and they'd accuse you of comparing apples to oranges here. In any case you know how people are. When it comes to religion, politics, or certain misguided ideas sometimes you will just go round and round in circles debating the issue. A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. Cheers! On 4/28/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I was thinking about this issue, and one question to ask people did occur to me. Say you were paraplegic and a state agency bought you a wheel chair. Would you effectively not use that chair to go anywhere fun just because the state bought it for you? There are lots of similar cases you might be able to come up with. my view is so long as your not actually charging the state extra cash for your recreation that's fine! Pluss of course, once something is bought and paid for, you own it! Part of my original student grant bought me a cane which I needed to walk around uni and go to lectures with. Should I have left that cane at home if I was going anywhere not work related? Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Know what sometimes happens when you get your wires crossed? z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'ap! --- Shepherds are the best beasts! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Tom, Oops! Sorry about that. Somehow I got my wires crossed. Cheers! On 4/28/11, Tom Randall kf6...@comcast.net wrote: Very well said Tom. One minor correction I actually live in central California not Canada. Game on. Tom --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Jim, Interesting. That could always be. Perhaps some rehab counselors have some opinion that their clients should not put games on their machines. That's an attitude that is rediculous since they aren't hurting anything by being there, and as has been stated that doesn't stop the client from scanning books, using Office, or anything else that needs to get done for college, work, etc. Of course, if my counselor had told me something like that I'd have gone and done it anyway. My opinion use to be rules are made for breaking, and I broke a lot of them growing up. Lol! On 4/28/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Charles, Right you are. Z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'zap indeed. Lol! Your extended zap reminds me a lot of back in junior high and high school a friend and I use to write short stories on our BrailleN' Speaks. Since we couldn't get authentic sounds for our audio books we made them up by stringing long character strings together to get a laser/phaser type sound, or a bunch of ats together to make a machinegun sound like this. At at at at at at at at. It was quite fun. Cheers! On 4/28/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Know what sometimes happens when you get your wires crossed? z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'z'ap! --- Shepherds are the best beasts! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well tom if it actually involved getting the state to pay for game X I'd agree, however it would seem as silly to me not! to use the computer to it's full potential inside and outside work really, but your right, some people just can't get away from certain ideas. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
I was asked to try to get some blind people who frequently visited a center for the blind interested in audio games. I agreed. So I took some games, copied onto a CD, to the center and was going to install them onto their computers that the people were allowed to use during the week and on Saturdays. I was told that I could not do that because these were computers for business! use! only! I asked how these people are going to get interested in games that they cannot try out? The answer was, Well, don't you have them on your computer? You could bring your computer here, play the games while explaining what you're doing, then invite them to your house instead of having them come here on a Saturday, couldn't you? My answer, in great disgust, was a flat! out! no! It really made me disgusted, because the man that ran the center was totally blind himself. He would not install any games on his computer, either, because it, too was supposedly for business only. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Do these guys know that windows itself, standardly comes with some games - that we generally can't play on things like older versions of windows anyway, but I've in the past asked some people if they're arguing with Bill Gates/Microsoft...smile Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 3:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage I was asked to try to get some blind people who frequently visited a center for the blind interested in audio games. I agreed. So I took some games, copied onto a CD, to the center and was going to install them onto their computers that the people were allowed to use during the week and on Saturdays. I was told that I could not do that because these were computers for business! use! only! I asked how these people are going to get interested in games that they cannot try out? The answer was, Well, don't you have them on your computer? You could bring your computer here, play the games while explaining what you're doing, then invite them to your house instead of having them come here on a Saturday, couldn't you? My answer, in great disgust, was a flat! out! no! It really made me disgusted, because the man that ran the center was totally blind himself. He would not install any games on his computer, either, because it, too was supposedly for business only. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well It was for a while. Just like norton was the best software. But it all went down hill sort of. No one is the best now in this reguard. all readers have the same features. jaws has been round the longest and is recognised and recomended by most orgs and others as the standard which it is because it was the first. I should mention that I am extremely bias having only met about 3 others like myself in my life well 5. All of these bar 1 were in not the best situations. Though its fair to say the org I run with is still quite good, it has shifted some what from the old days but then everything has to shift and I can't really blame it. Its still not like the rnib but then its all opinion and I have never got anything from them bar books. I have just had bad experiencees with various agencies in the past so I am more to the against point of view than for. At 08:00 p.m. 28/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Shaun, You know, that's about the most insulting comment I've heard from you in a while. We should not be putting our fellow blind brothers/sisters down for belonging to an institution or being unaware of what alternatives their are. The entire point Dark was trying to make about the RNIB and other organizations like them is that they don't often make their clients aware of what is available to them regardless if they fit the stereotypical view or not. For instance, back in the mid 1990's when I started really loosing my sight BSVI enrolled me in a technology training program to be shown things like Jaws, Openbook, braille displays, and things like that. I remember clearly asking my trainer if there were any other screen readers besides Jaws and he replied that there were other screen readers but none of them were very good. Jaws was the only one that was any good, and why BSVI recommended it to their clients. So I believed him, and took his statement as fact. Well fast foward to a couple years later. I am now taking a class in C++, and I had to use Borland's Turbo C++ for class. I could not get Jaws for Dos to work properly with the C++ compiler. I was on a campis wide broadband connection so decided to check out other screen readers like Vocal-Eyes, ASAP, etc. Turns out that Vocal-Eyes worked with Borland C++ where Jaws for Dos wouldn't. Plus since Vocal-Eyes was easier to customize than Jaws, no need to write scripts to configure it for an app, I managed to get through my course using a screen reader other than Jaws. That lead me to downloadand try everything from Window-Eyes to ASAW and see if my recommendation from the experts were true. Fact is the experts were flat out wrong. Today I am now a happy Window-Eyes user, and I rarely if ever use Jaws. However, my point is the same as Dark's. I was caught up in the institutional line, was sold on the idea Jaws is the absolute best, and that wasn't necessarily true. In fact, today with Window-Eyes and Hal becoming equal to and sometimes better than Jaws that's definitely not true. I wouldn't have known that or had reason to look elsewhere if it hadn't been for an app I couldn't get Jaws to use, and decided on a whim to try something else and see if it works. I was certainly not to blame for not knowing any better, and in a sense I was lied to. This is what the RNIB etc are doing evrytime they give deference to someone like Azabat without at least representing other game companies games too. Laughing at our fellow blind brothers/sisters for their ignorance of such things really shows how immature you are. Cheers! On 4/27/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well I know for a fact that we have better stuff like as a bat. Its disgusting that an org caters for the poor blind stereo type. Not only that but inferior titles really since simular games, like kitchensinc are out. Then there is the rsgames client and quentin c playroom for online play. These are free and hello! better than that or something I don't know because I don't play as a poor blind persons games. My suggestion is to let well alone. They want to cater for the poor blind, let them, there are plenty of poor blind people that want to be poor blind. And since they can't see anything bar the poor blind the rest of us can laugh about their sillyness and they won't even give a screw. And they won't change. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well my dad says the computer is for work. I have a player on here, yes games for when I am not working, in the player I can play music for whatever on whatever I like so its for both. Its also fair to say that games have been in the dos system since qbasic and probably gwbasic existed there will always be games in the os. I havn't known an os not to have games in it. Its all what portion has what. A small portion of my drives have games and programs. There is a medium ammount of podcasts, dramas and books but most is music. I always get all round systems though because of their stability seem to go for business systems to run my stuff on. At 01:51 a.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: True tom, and this is another reason I'm so anxious to make people know that more than just azabat exist. The computer is just for work thing is actually an interesting, and rather depressing, one. I myself actually went through a similar notion when I first got my laptop provided by my student grant to do my degree with. In my case it wasn't based upon a moral idea, but on an assumption I had. I'd obviously played console games for years, and while I knew pc games existed, I assumed most were modern hyper graphical affairs which I myself would find unplayable. I'd only ever used my computer to essentially do word processing at school, so the idea of playing even textual games was one that simply hadn't occurred to me, in my brain computers and school work were sort of absolutely associated with each other. if I wanted to play a game, i needed a console. it wasn't until I heard of the www.whitestick.co.uk's games to play online page that I started thinking that I could actually have some fun with my computer. interestingly enough though, it was this that also got me playing around with computers and with the net, and trying to work out how to do things, and these are skills I've needed. For instance, many online brouser games require use of complex page navigation. When i read spinoza online, there were so many references, footnotes and goodness knows what the page was cluttered as heck. If I hadn't been used at that point to using all of Hal's read page commands on a webpage, i could've been rather confused indeed! There is currently a copy of my thesis saved on sendspace in case I had a fire. however had I not played games, I'd have never heard about file sharing and never had this idea to use it as a backup. But nobody is going to sit there and practice ways in their spare time of learning how to do their work better, and even if a person has training, the training won't teach them to start experimenting and trying different things out, nor will they be inclined to do so in their spare time. If computers were just for work, why do operating systems come with preinstalled games like hearts, solitare, pinball etc? On a moral level, there are certainly cases of people I've heard of who screw over the equipment system to try and get what they want out of it. The r09 digital recorder I used to make podcasts and such was actually provided by my student grant, and what I use it mostly for is to have people read me gernal articals which I can then record. Because however I knew I'd be using the recorder for fun, I found the price of the olympus mono voice recorder which would've served exactly my needs for my phd, but would've been no good in terms of making podcasts etc, got my grant to pay that and paid the extra 70 quid or so for the r09 with it's sterrio mikes myself. So I do have sympathy for this position as it ultimately comes out of a sense of fairness. However, while I do agree it would be wrong to have a computer bought just to play games on, so long as the state are not expected to pay more for your recreation, why not? does everyone in business delete all games from their operating system? heck, I've regularly seen very professional business type people on trains doing crosswords in the papers. While I do agree the state has no financial obligation to let you play games, once the computer is bought, the money is spent and the state's obligation is pretty much over and done with. the equipment is now yours to use for whatever, so long as the state isn't paying more money. What you do with your computer outside work is only your business, you might as well ask all those people who sit on trains why their not working and why they're doing crosswords in work time. this is generally one of the largest differences I've noticed in the atitudes of disabled people. Because a computer is provided for work and training is focused that way, either there is a moral idea, or as in my case just an assumption, tht you don't do anything else with it. That's also why people fail to practice skills, sinse quite obviously you'll learn to do, and practice something a good bit more if your doing it for fun as well as work. Beware the Grue! Dark.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well I have an aunt who is not comfortable with a cane. She recons it can trip people up. That it needs watching etc, and that its not my right to take the entire path when I walk, etc, etc. Ofcause with that person I don't use the cane, mainly because I don't want that type of argument all day thanks vary much. But its interesting what opinion people take, I walked with my cane and my grandpa, on the beech, a guy with his dog chatted with me because he saw my cane. Yet people that saw my cane as a menace wouldn't think of that. At 06:33 a.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Ah, but I think you already know the answer to that. Someone might make a case something as basic as a wheelchair or white cane is a necessary item for day to day travel, not only for your personal safety, but for basic mobility. Something like game x is not necessary and they'd accuse you of comparing apples to oranges here. In any case you know how people are. When it comes to religion, politics, or certain misguided ideas sometimes you will just go round and round in circles debating the issue. A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. Cheers! On 4/28/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I was thinking about this issue, and one question to ask people did occur to me. Say you were paraplegic and a state agency bought you a wheel chair. Would you effectively not use that chair to go anywhere fun just because the state bought it for you? There are lots of similar cases you might be able to come up with. my view is so long as your not actually charging the state extra cash for your recreation that's fine! Pluss of course, once something is bought and paid for, you own it! Part of my original student grant bought me a cane which I needed to walk around uni and go to lectures with. Should I have left that cane at home if I was going anywhere not work related? Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
yeah I get this a lot. I was doing some tutorials at a local school. I was hoping to do some work with an inaccessible system I went and complained ofcause and went to write an email which opened a staff system by mistake. They then told me I was hacking and fired me. Rather stupid since I hadn't done anything really wrong but just hit enter on an email webmaster link. Ofcause work computers in organisations are for work. I wouldn't restrict my systems for that. Companies probably have a good reason for security reasons to do that. It also makes sence to do that. At one of the places I was staying at and doing bits and such I was told I could educate people on the games. I did admin jobs there and was friendly with the local admin. I was told the systems were for work and loaded them on anyway, but then I was friends with the admin and it was alowed. I have learned after I left things got quite strict there though so who knows. At 01:36 p.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: I was asked to try to get some blind people who frequently visited a center for the blind interested in audio games. I agreed. So I took some games, copied onto a CD, to the center and was going to install them onto their computers that the people were allowed to use during the week and on Saturdays. I was told that I could not do that because these were computers for business! use! only! I asked how these people are going to get interested in games that they cannot try out? The answer was, Well, don't you have them on your computer? You could bring your computer here, play the games while explaining what you're doing, then invite them to your house instead of having them come here on a Saturday, couldn't you? My answer, in great disgust, was a flat! out! no! It really made me disgusted, because the man that ran the center was totally blind himself. He would not install any games on his computer, either, because it, too was supposedly for business only. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Its probably naughty as. But on ocation while say at a camp or something where people don't know me and I am sure I won't get discovered by someone that knows that although I work hard I am as lazy as a slothe, I act like a poor blind and everything gets done and I laze round. Though that hardly happens. In fact I got caught once so I need to be on my guard, loads of places are switched on and well. I can't be a lazy boy anymore. At 08:19 p.m. 28/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, I think there are always a few that do meet the stereotypical view no matter where you go. I've met more than my share of the kind that want everything done for them etc at summer camp, blind conventions, etc but there are also plenty of people who don't meet this stereotypical view as well. I think a lot of it is just how you, as an individual are raised, and weather or not you were educated in a public school or a specialized school etc. I myself had had several years of useful vision so I was raised during my formative years as a normal child. I would help my dad out working on cars, computers, and other general electronics he would fix for friends at work etc. When I lost my sight my dad didn't go, I have a blind son who is helpless. No, on the contrary he incurraged me to continue helping him work on things in his work shop. Even if it was something as simple as locating the right size socket, rench, or screw driver, he wanted me to know and understand I was anything but helpless. In fact, he put me to work changing transmissions etc at age 17 without any useful vision at all which goes to prove how I had that little extra push some of the more institutionalized blind don't get I think. If you aren't actively incurraged to overcome the blindness thing you'll never quite get passed the I'm helpless mentality. Cheers! On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well Tom, I'm not sure how it is in the states, but over here there is one group of young blind people who do! conform to stomething of a sterriotype. I've noticed that some blind people (especially those who went to specialist schools), are! pretty useless, expect everything to be done for them, only associate with other blind people etc. That aside though I do know what you mean about organizations having specific ideas of blind people. For instance when I asked the rnib about using a chip and pin card, their response was that I learn one cash machine near my home, but when i pointed out machines can come in different makes and models with different screen prompts and such, they told me to Get my carer to do it rather hard, sinse I live on my own and don't have one, which surprised them ;D. In the end I just fixed things myself by arranging with my bank to have a signature card, so that machines will print out a receit for me to sign when I pay for stuff with it and I can just get actual cash at my local bank. My point though, the rnib had no idea of a blind person living entirely alone and not! having a carer The problem is this atitude is contagious. When I was trying to activate the wireless network on my hub but couldn't due to not being able to read the key on the side, when I phoned the company tech support they told me to get someone to read it for me and when I pointed out there wasn't they said that what other blind people do and put the phone down on me. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
yeah this is confusing. The first 2 systems I got from the state. Technically I had to only use them for work. And had to return it to them when I no longer needed it. No one inforced this and it was known people played games on it. As it was by the time I wanted to return it the system was old anyway. So I kept it till it died. One thing is that I am partually that every software and other thing I got from the state when I upgraded and purchaced these they became totally mine even though it was mine anyway. At 05:44 a.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: Hi tom. I was thinking about this issue, and one question to ask people did occur to me. Say you were paraplegic and a state agency bought you a wheel chair. Would you effectively not use that chair to go anywhere fun just because the state bought it for you? There are lots of similar cases you might be able to come up with. my view is so long as your not actually charging the state extra cash for your recreation that's fine! Pluss of course, once something is bought and paid for, you own it! Part of my original student grant bought me a cane which I needed to walk around uni and go to lectures with. Should I have left that cane at home if I was going anywhere not work related? Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
yeah. Thats a point. The sighted use the mouse when the keyboard is faster. So being blind has some advantages. And we can do crazy things on our devices and can be the only one that knows what its all about. At 08:30 p.m. 28/04/2011, you wrote: A waiter at a restaurant this side once said the following to me after I explained some simple things to him like pouring level indicators, cellphones, our money measuring slide things, general living workarounds, etc.: you're not disabled - you're differently enabled Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Dark, Well, I think there are always a few that do meet the stereotypical view no matter where you go. I've met more than my share of the kind that want everything done for them etc at summer camp, blind conventions, etc but there are also plenty of people who don't meet this stereotypical view as well. I think a lot of it is just how you, as an individual are raised, and weather or not you were educated in a public school or a specialized school etc. I myself had had several years of useful vision so I was raised during my formative years as a normal child. I would help my dad out working on cars, computers, and other general electronics he would fix for friends at work etc. When I lost my sight my dad didn't go, I have a blind son who is helpless. No, on the contrary he incurraged me to continue helping him work on things in his work shop. Even if it was something as simple as locating the right size socket, rench, or screw driver, he wanted me to know and understand I was anything but helpless. In fact, he put me to work changing transmissions etc at age 17 without any useful vision at all which goes to prove how I had that little extra push some of the more institutionalized blind don't get I think. If you aren't actively incurraged to overcome the blindness thing you'll never quite get passed the I'm helpless mentality. Cheers! On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well Tom, I'm not sure how it is in the states, but over here there is one group of young blind people who do! conform to stomething of a sterriotype. I've noticed that some blind people (especially those who went to specialist schools), are! pretty useless, expect everything to be done for them, only associate with other blind people etc. That aside though I do know what you mean about organizations having specific ideas of blind people. For instance when I asked the rnib about using a chip and pin card, their response was that I learn one cash machine near my home, but when i pointed out machines can come in different makes and models with different screen prompts and such, they told me to Get my carer to do it rather hard, sinse I live on my own and don't have one, which surprised them ;D. In the end I just fixed things myself by arranging with my bank to have a signature card, so that machines will print out a receit for me to sign when I pay for stuff with it and I can just get actual cash at my local bank. My point though, the rnib had no idea of a blind person living entirely alone and not! having a carer The problem is this atitude is contagious. When I was trying to activate the wireless network on my hub but couldn't due to not being able to read the key on the side, when I phoned the company tech support they told me to get someone to read it for me and when I pointed out there wasn't they said that what other blind people do and put the phone down on me. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well it all depends on if its monitered or inforced. Technically I was not supposed to do anything bar use my own software. But I have always done that. anyway Its not like I play during working hours or when I have to work so whats the issue. At 09:44 a.m. 29/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
I must say It was me that decided to venture out the box. I was taught what I needed to know. Everything was set so the blind could use it for what it was designed for. That I could crack that security and do what I wished was a thrill. I kept it to myself though. At 07:31 p.m. 28/04/2011, you wrote: Hi, Yeah, I've met a few narrow minded individuals like that. I was at a blind convention in Columbus one time, and I talked to a few other blind computer users there about the fact that I write accessible games and their opinions were a bit odd. One guy told me that since his computer was purchased by BSVI, I.E. through the state, that it was to only be used for work and nothing but work. Another common opinion I found, especially with older blind computer users, was that games were for younger people. The other Tom said earlier on list he has encountered this same opinion as well up in Canada so it must be pretty common among our more senior members. The thing is even if you make some of these people aware of the existance of accessible games not everyone is going to jump for it. There will be some opinion like my computer must only be used for work or games are only for the young that will determine their buying choices. That said, though, my parents generation, the Baby Boomers, are now getting up their in age. As Elenor's excellent article for 7-128 pointed out these are the people with most of the buying power world wide. They are going to start having health issues, especially vision loss, and the mainstream game industry isn't prepared for this eventuality. The rest of us who are creating accessible games will at least have a chance to get a real foot in the door if we can make this segment of the population aware we exist. We often forget that it was the Baby Boomers who were in their 30's when the Atari 2600 and original Nintendo Entertainment System was introduced in the 1980's. Unlike their parents generation they played Donkey Kong, Packman, Missile Command, Super Mario, and all the rest with their kids who are now my age. So now that my parents are old enough to retire what kinds of games are out there for them to play that isn't loded with complex 3d graphics, and is fully accessible when their vision begins to go? What kinds of games are available that harkens back to the games they know and love like Packman, Space Invaders, Missile Command, Super Mario, Donkey Kong, Time Pilot, Adventure Island, etc? Well, we've obviously got some of that available right now. DynaMan is basically an arcade game in the style of classic Packman. PCS Games Packman Talks is another great remake for the blind. As for Space Invaders we have Aliens in the Outback, Troopenum, Dark Destroyer, you name it. Since we already have some of the games they are likely to play it is rediculous that places like the RNIB aren't making the Baby Boomer generation aware that there are games on par with the games they knew 30 years ago. Cheers! On 4/27/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: not to mention that some blind people refuse to play games in general or associate with the wider community. One of these is a friend that has quentin c because i have her the file but mostly plays with rsgames clients. But thats it and only because people gave it to her one day. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Other thing relating to keyboard usage is that since started using computers, in my sighted days long before there was really such a thing as a mouse, and since spent most of my time later on typing code, I never really liked moving hands off the keyboard to use a mouse for something simple, so there are a couple of keyboard shortcuts have always used in windows that some relatively computer literate sighties don't seem to know exist, but I've always used them - simple examples are shift + delete to ignore/bypass recycle bin, and backspace to browse one level up in windows explorer, etc. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage yeah. Thats a point. The sighted use the mouse when the keyboard is faster. So being blind has some advantages. And we can do crazy things on our devices and can be the only one that knows what its all about. At 08:30 p.m. 28/04/2011, you wrote: A waiter at a restaurant this side once said the following to me after I explained some simple things to him like pouring level indicators, cellphones, our money measuring slide things, general living workarounds, etc.: you're not disabled - you're differently enabled Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Dark, Well, I think there are always a few that do meet the stereotypical view no matter where you go. I've met more than my share of the kind that want everything done for them etc at summer camp, blind conventions, etc but there are also plenty of people who don't meet this stereotypical view as well. I think a lot of it is just how you, as an individual are raised, and weather or not you were educated in a public school or a specialized school etc. I myself had had several years of useful vision so I was raised during my formative years as a normal child. I would help my dad out working on cars, computers, and other general electronics he would fix for friends at work etc. When I lost my sight my dad didn't go, I have a blind son who is helpless. No, on the contrary he incurraged me to continue helping him work on things in his work shop. Even if it was something as simple as locating the right size socket, rench, or screw driver, he wanted me to know and understand I was anything but helpless. In fact, he put me to work changing transmissions etc at age 17 without any useful vision at all which goes to prove how I had that little extra push some of the more institutionalized blind don't get I think. If you aren't actively incurraged to overcome the blindness thing you'll never quite get passed the I'm helpless mentality. Cheers! On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well Tom, I'm not sure how it is in the states, but over here there is one group of young blind people who do! conform to stomething of a sterriotype. I've noticed that some blind people (especially those who went to specialist schools), are! pretty useless, expect everything to be done for them, only associate with other blind people etc. That aside though I do know what you mean about organizations having specific ideas of blind people. For instance when I asked the rnib about using a chip and pin card, their response was that I learn one cash machine near my home, but when i pointed out machines can come in different makes and models with different screen prompts and such, they told me to Get my carer to do it rather hard, sinse I live on my own and don't have one, which surprised them ;D. In the end I just fixed things myself by arranging with my bank to have a signature card, so that machines will print out a receit for me to sign when I pay for stuff with it and I can just get actual cash at my local bank. My point though, the rnib had no idea of a blind person living entirely alone and not! having a carer The problem is this atitude is contagious. When I was trying to activate the wireless network on my hub but couldn't due to not being able to read the key on the side, when I phoned the company tech support they told me to get someone to read it for me and when I pointed out there wasn't they said that what other blind people do and put the phone down on me. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Yet the center was open pon saturdays and people came to use their computers there? very insane! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage I was asked to try to get some blind people who frequently visited a center for the blind interested in audio games. I agreed. So I took some games, copied onto a CD, to the center and was going to install them onto their computers that the people were allowed to use during the week and on Saturdays. I was told that I could not do that because these were computers for business! use! only! I asked how these people are going to get interested in games that they cannot try out? The answer was, Well, don't you have them on your computer? You could bring your computer here, play the games while explaining what you're doing, then invite them to your house instead of having them come here on a Saturday, couldn't you? My answer, in great disgust, was a flat! out! no! It really made me disgusted, because the man that ran the center was totally blind himself. He would not install any games on his computer, either, because it, too was supposedly for business only. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Thomas, I have talked with people who told me that they had been told that since BSVI bought their computer that they were not allowed to put games on it. So it may not be the individuals but some of the rehab people telling them such things. But I do know of other rehab councilors that put my games on the clients computers. BFN Jim Don't ever argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Tom. Similar arguements in the case of blackjack can be made about several of their other games, solitare, scrabble, concentration, mine sweeper, connect four, battleships, basic sudoku (though they do sell several other varients), their 54 dollar crossword cds, hangman, and several other of their word games. Even where the games are! original, it is also often the case that the price required is far more than the game is seemingly worth. for instance, I'd imagine yourself, Jim, or just about any experienced programmer could quite easily create a game of dominoes with not too much effort (the rules are afterall not so different from uno which there is even an online playable version of). yet, Azabat are selling dominoes for the same price as blackjack. However sinse they have the backing from rnib and similar, they are able to sell these things at the price they do without hindrance. It is not that I tthink all their games are dire, or there modus operandi of markiting to computer novices is entirely without merrit, though imho it's just as easy to run say one of the spoonbill games as it is one of theirs, but it just seems a shame when azabat is the only choice offered and effectively all that people will think of when introduced to audiogames. This is typical of the rnib of course, when i phoned them for advice about accessible mobile phones, ie, phones with voice over and other screen readers, they didn't know a thing and the only thing they could offer were phones with big buttons so tied up in a view of blind people as incompitant that they only stock, promote or advertize products that go along with that view and why I'd so like to see about getting some more promotion of other stuff out there. Heck, if I'd been looking for accessible games myself and all i'd heard about was azabat, I'd be entirely put off the idea. Btw, despite my opinions, I am however for the sake of audiogames.net and fairness to write descriptions of Azabat's games as honestly as I can as I have for others. This is one reason I started with their fourth volume, which contains some of their imho better titles like backgammon and draughts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi neal. Great notions, feel free to contact them. I might see about talking to hagar electronics myself. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Harmony Neil harmon...@googlemail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Know what you mean. They are literally the only games that I've found that are sold here in the UK. To be honest, RNIB call themselves, a charity Helping people with sight loss, but the only thing they do is go on about how much people have donated or left in a will or something. I met the person who used to be chairman of RNIB back in 2007 and to be honest, he is a complete, posh, (insert language here), and I was more interested in eating food at the time. But Mooving on, We could always try Sight and Sound, who are the UK sellers of screen readers and and magnification software for computers, or else Force Ten, who do a similar thing, but they sell hardware as well. Just my thoughts, which probably don't count for much, but oh well. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 27 April 2011 04:09 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups), did a pole a while ago, maybe it'd be worth seeing if they will do something else? Imho this situation needs rectifying, and people need to know there are more and better developers out there than just Azabat, and games to appeal to all sorts of tastes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark and all. Yes what you are talking about is a really serious problem, one factor of course is that blind people need to be told that these games are out there and where they go is usually to one of these organizations whether you're talking about the U.K. or the U.S. or anywhere else I'm sure. Just as a for instance I'm an access technology instructor here at a local organization where I live and while I of course cannot spend a large amount of time on gaming when teaching a student I do definitely make sure to mention that these games are out there if people are interested and I will demo games for people who are interested. Another thing that you are going to come up against with this is the demographics of blind people. Unfortunately if you want to look at it that way, the majority of blind people are what we'd consider in the older group, 60's 70's etc. Keep in mind I'm a 40-something year old gamer nerd, I'd imagine I'm probably one of the older people on this list, but I am one of the younger blind people down where I work, there are only a couple people younger than me down there. I am not sure what the exact statistics are and I have no clue what the demographics are like over there, but I am sure this is something you could find out if you are interested. The end result at least here is that blind people in their teens and 20's which is where most people get into gaming are a much smaller number than are the ones that I just mentioned. So in a nutshell you've got the ignorance of the blind population as a whole most of whom have no idea that there are games for us out there let alone that we can play quite a few mainstream games if we want to put the time and effort into it plus the fact that the majority of the blind folks at least here in the state where I live are older folks who may not have quite as much interest in gaming as we do, although some of the card/board games might interest them I suppose. I find at least where I work is if I am teaching somebody who's say around my age anyway they may have been into video games before losing their sight and so they may be interested in finding out both what they can still do with mainstream games and what is out there in terms of audio games. I'm not saying all this to be discouraging, I've done demos of the Blindsoftware games at state convensions for a local organization I am a member of and given the opportunity I will do so again despite the relatively low responses I got, I am just trying to hopefully clarify some of the other issues we may be dealing with when we try to educate other blind folks about the great amount of stuff that is out there for us. I don't know that there's much I can do to assist your efforts as I have pretty much no knowledge of organizations in the U.K. but this is definitely a topic that interests me since I've been interested in gaming pretty much since there have been home video games. Regards and game on. Tom -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 8:09 PM To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
It is same and true here in BC Canada as well. The CNIB, and all the vision teachers I've spoken to, have no idea about the majority of what's out there for blind people- game or otherwise. In fact, I totally disregarded audio games myself until, on a trip to the guide dog school, I found Shades of Doom on their computer- and was hooked then. First thing I did when I got home was to purchase me a copy, and then started poking into other audio games and so on. When the pen friend first came out, I phoned my friends who worked at CNIB to ask about it- and they didn't even know what I was talking about- in fact, one of them asked me in return about eight months later: Hey, you know anything about pen friend? And these are staff members who are supposed to be there to help opening up/seeking options for blind clients. I've been instructing sighted people on martial art/self defense for years, and have on several occasions trying to extend my service through CNIB to the blind community. All I got were excuses, rejections and cold-shoulder/silent treatments. Yet I can bet you that, if a parent is to approach CNIB today, and ask where/who can they send their visually impaired child to to learn self defense, the organization would most likely just tell them that there is no such service available. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Tom. Similar arguements in the case of blackjack can be made about several of their other games, solitare, scrabble, concentration, mine sweeper, connect four, battleships, basic sudoku (though they do sell several other varients), their 54 dollar crossword cds, hangman, and several other of their word games. Even where the games are! original, it is also often the case that the price required is far more than the game is seemingly worth. for instance, I'd imagine yourself, Jim, or just about any experienced programmer could quite easily create a game of dominoes with not too much effort (the rules are afterall not so different from uno which there is even an online playable version of). yet, Azabat are selling dominoes for the same price as blackjack. However sinse they have the backing from rnib and similar, they are able to sell these things at the price they do without hindrance. It is not that I tthink all their games are dire, or there modus operandi of markiting to computer novices is entirely without merrit, though imho it's just as easy to run say one of the spoonbill games as it is one of theirs, but it just seems a shame when azabat is the only choice offered and effectively all that people will think of when introduced to audiogames. This is typical of the rnib of course, when i phoned them for advice about accessible mobile phones, ie, phones with voice over and other screen readers, they didn't know a thing and the only thing they could offer were phones with big buttons so tied up in a view of blind people as incompitant that they only stock, promote or advertize products that go along with that view and why I'd so like to see about getting some more promotion of other stuff out there. Heck, if I'd been looking for accessible games myself and all i'd heard about was azabat, I'd be entirely put off the idea. Btw, despite my opinions, I am however for the sake of audiogames.net and fairness to write descriptions of Azabat's games as honestly as I can as I have for others. This is one reason I started with their fourth volume, which contains some of their imho better titles like backgammon and draughts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Tom. What you say about demographics is perfectly true, however there are several points to considder. Firstly, even if we assume that all older blind people over the age of 60 (which if I remember rightly is roughly %75 of all blind people), will only be interested in traditional games, there are far more (and imho far better), examples of those sorts of games than just Azabat available, however sinse Azabat have this image of only appealing to computer novices and have got the backing of the rnib etc that's all people here about. Take blackjack. Azabat are selling blackjack for 13.5 usd. For this you get a game with comparatively few sfx, and recorded speech. In fact the only bennifit I can see in azabat blackjack is the use of graphics. Che however has a far more interesting version of the game available for far less where you can play against others online. if the online aspect is too complex, equally good free versions exist, and personally I don't think the ability to run directly from the cd, which seems Azabat's main selling point, is worth the money (especially sinse it's not difficult to setup a shortcut key for someone to use (which would actually be easier, no chance of dropping the cd ;D). So, even in that field things are covered. Then however is the point that in fact not all people over 60 are automatically useless. I've for instance encountered players in core exiles who are in their 60's, and the lady who lives next door to me uses her pc to do some quite complex things with art and pictures, despite being in her 80's. Heck, my dad is over 60 and loves racing, tank or plane sim, and puzle games (if he lost his site he might very much enjoy some of the racing audiogames available). I actually thinkorganizations like the rnib are far too! insistant on promoting people's helplessness. Pluss if they are like the Rnib they simply forget that that %25 of younger blind people even exist! then, there is the fact that you mentioned, that it won't be so long before some people who grew up in the 60's and 70's start losing their site as well, and certainly they will want computer games to play (I've made the same arguement to the rnib about recording more sf and fantasy books, though they've not listened). My point is, even with the demographic, things are stil i think far too overblown and unknown about, and it really is a situation we should try to alter. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Johny. sounds familiar, I mentioned my very similar expeirence to yours regarding the pen friend with mine and the mobile phone. I actually briefly ran across audio games very early on in 2003 when I was looking at the whitestick.co.uk site's online games list, but disregarded trying them because I suspected they would be far too symplistic and umbed down for me (I admit in many cases I was wrong). It wasn't until in fact Bryan introduced me to shades of doom that I even thought games with sound could be as interesting as the graphical ones I usually play ;d. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark, That's a very good question. I'm not really sure what the answer is, but there are ways of getting the news out there if you think of ways of getting maximum exposure and bypassing the RNIB. For instance, you might be able to call up one of your popular news papers, one that is well circulated, and ask them if they will do a story on games for the blind. In there you could nicely put the screws to RNIB by letting people know there are games out there such as Che's card room, All in Play,Jim Kitchen's free games, etc and dropping the fact that the RNIB only seems to support Azabat's games and not making people aware of games such as the GMA titles which would be more appealing to a younger audience.mentioning that Spoonbill offers a number of similar games such as Chess, Uno, Solitaire, etc would most likely get people to look at those websites and see how the RNIB is doing a disservice to the blind over there in the U.K. As for long term finding other organizations and asking them if they could help might open the door to getting more games advertised over there. As far as the entire issue of patronage goes we have some of that going on over here as well. If you go through a state service such as BSVI, BVR, or Devision of Blind Services to get a computer for college, work, etc you are 99% likely to get an e-machine preloaded with Jaws, Magic, and Openbook. The fact that their are other screen reader developers like GW Micro and Dolphin doesn't seem to register or matter to the state agencies at large. They just go for the most expensive, most well known products developed by Freedom Scientific, and to heck with anyone else. I've often thought that this practice was rediculous as I've used Window-Eyes for a number of years and want the state agencies to treat it as the equal of Jaws and give their clients a choice. Yet they don't. Now, of course, I've become so turned off with Windows that my wife and I have switched to Linux which is rapidly becoming as accessible as triditional Windows products for a lot less money. Want a good free office sweit for Linux get Open Office 3.3. Want a good e-mail/calendar program use Evolution. Want the world's number one web browser get Firefox for Linux. Want to manage your bank accounts and home finances use GNU Cash.Want a low cost screen reader use Orca. Want a free OCR program for scanning/reading books use Simple Scan OCR. All of this is free and accessible so the fact that the state agencies are paying out $2,000 to $3,000 for access technology is a bit extreme given the fact that other alternatives such as Linux are quite litterally cutting the cost of access down to pennies on the dollar. Yet the state isn't willing to look into it. For instance, some time back I was meeting with my BSVI counselor on some job related issues when I pointed out the fact I was now using Linux 90% of the time for work. He was surprised, and didn't even know that there was a screen reader, magnifier, and OCR package out there for blind Linux users. So informed him by booting my laptop and showing off Orca, using Eloquence for Linux, as well as a number of flagship applications like Open Office, Evolution, Firefox, GNU Cash, Pigin Instant Messenger, and so on. He was impressed, but not interested in recommending it to his clients. As he explained it when the state agencies purchase software like Jaws they want all the trappings of commercial products such as technical support by phone, skilled trainers to come out and personally train clients, and of course audio tutorials and that kind of thing. Since Linux uses a different business model while they do offer paid phone support, paid hands on training, etc the majority of day to day support is handled through mailing lists, online wikis, and downloadable guides he felt wasn't good enough for the kind of tech support BSVI is use to getting from say Freedom Scientific. I do see his point, but the issue still remains they are paying hundreds of times more on software than they really need to. The other issue was that BSVI, BVR, etc look at this strictly from a business point of view. If you are getting a job with a credit card company and they use Windows 7 BSVI needs to purchase the software and training for Windows 7 for their blind clients. I don't disagree with him on that point, as that's all too often the case since Windows is still the number one operating system, but the fact they almost always purchase Freedom Scientific products for Windows rather than other Windows alternatives is a bit narrow minded. Why not buy Zoom Text, Window-Eyes, etc rather than Magic and Jaws? He didn't have a good answer for that. So I do understand where you are coming from but on a different issue. Its all about getting the word out there that alternatives exist weather it is GMA vs Azabat, Jaws vs Window-Eyes, or Windows vs Linux doesn't matter. The fact is organizations, state agencies,
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark, Yeah, I certainly could write a Dominoes game if I were so inclined. However, the issue isn't weather game x is easy or difficult to program I think what you are talking about is the issue of how one company's or person's product gains dominence in a certain market for seemingly no reason. Unfortunately, I think it all comes down to who you know as they say. For instance, Freedom Scientific's products, especially Jaws, is way over priced when you consider the fact that Window-Eyes and Hal cost less to own. Jaws charges you extra money to run it on say Windows Server, but Window-Eyes does not. Yet despite the fact Window-Eyes has equal quality of Jaws our state agencies still by and actively promote Jaws like its the next best thing to sliced bread. Why? Alot of the reasons just come down to personal bias I think. In the RNIB apparently the people who own and run it have a dim/narrow view of blindness. related issues. They are seen as experts in their field, as knowing what they are doing, even though they have the same old stereotypical view that blind people are 70 years old, need big buttons, braille crossword puzzles, and sit in their rocking chairs and nit all day. That is just personal bias and ignorance of anyone who doesn't fit that mold. Unfortunately, as long as the state and other people come to places like the RNIB for advice they'll continue to give bad advice and the general public weather it is your government, employer, retired grandma, etc will accept it as the truth because they don't know any better themselves. So they will buy Jaws, Azabat games, or whatever else RNIB etc says is good for the blind no matter how far from true it may be. So Azabat and Freedom Scientific are allowed to continue charging their prices without a complaint from their customers. Cheers! On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Similar arguements in the case of blackjack can be made about several of their other games, solitare, scrabble, concentration, mine sweeper, connect four, battleships, basic sudoku (though they do sell several other varients), their 54 dollar crossword cds, hangman, and several other of their word games. Even where the games are! original, it is also often the case that the price required is far more than the game is seemingly worth. for instance, I'd imagine yourself, Jim, or just about any experienced programmer could quite easily create a game of dominoes with not too much effort (the rules are afterall not so different from uno which there is even an online playable version of). yet, Azabat are selling dominoes for the same price as blackjack. However sinse they have the backing from rnib and similar, they are able to sell these things at the price they do without hindrance. It is not that I tthink all their games are dire, or there modus operandi of markiting to computer novices is entirely without merrit, though imho it's just as easy to run say one of the spoonbill games as it is one of theirs, but it just seems a shame when azabat is the only choice offered and effectively all that people will think of when introduced to audiogames. This is typical of the rnib of course, when i phoned them for advice about accessible mobile phones, ie, phones with voice over and other screen readers, they didn't know a thing and the only thing they could offer were phones with big buttons so tied up in a view of blind people as incompitant that they only stock, promote or advertize products that go along with that view and why I'd so like to see about getting some more promotion of other stuff out there. Heck, if I'd been looking for accessible games myself and all i'd heard about was azabat, I'd be entirely put off the idea. Btw, despite my opinions, I am however for the sake of audiogames.net and fairness to write descriptions of Azabat's games as honestly as I can as I have for others. This is one reason I started with their fourth volume, which contains some of their imho better titles like backgammon and draughts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark, I here you there. I've seen this attitude that blind people are helpless far too many times than I care to remember. Which reminds me of a funny story that sort of makes this point. As many people know I lost my vision gradually so I had plenty of years to play video games, use computers, etc so naturally when it came time to get ready for college I was already experienced with computers in some way. Well, BSVI purchased a copy of Jaws 2.0, OpenBook 3.0, and Duxberry Braille Translater for me and the tech shows up and installs it on my IBM Aptiva, and leaves saying he'll be back on Saturday to start training. Ok, Saturday comes and he comes in to find me half way through scanning and reading a Stephen King book in Openbook. He asks me what I'm doing and I told him I've been scanning and reading paperbacks all week, writing short stories in MS Word, and this that and the other thing. He was surprised I was able to pick up the basics in under a week and was using my computer as effectively as someone who was professionally trained by him. I explained all I needed to do was listen to the manuals, I.E. the tapes, that came with the software. My point is that these people are so use to a certain type of client that they do forget not all of us are as helpless or need the same level of support as they think. Fortunately, I've always been someone who picks up new concepts quickly which has served me well over the years. It has helped me adapt to new screen readers, new operating systems, learning to program, etc without a lot of third-party special training. In college when I had to use a compiler that wasn't fully accessible with Jaws I set myself to learning the task to learn Jaws scripting and just did it myself without Henter-Joice's, AKA Freedom Scientific's, help. I'm not saying that I'm smarter than everyone else, but I've always been able to be independant about learning new things. So its a bit degrading to here about someone like RNIB and others who treat blind clients as more disabled and helpless than they really are. As you pointed out not everyone who is in the 60 and over catagory nits and does crossword puzzles. My parents are in that age range and the kinds of games my dad plays such as Elf Bowling, various pinball games, etc sounds more like what Draconis Entertainment sells. My mom plays online Monopoly, Blackjack, Hearts, Freecell, as well as a number of classic Atari games like Packman, Centipede, Space Invaders, whatever via an emulator like Stella. If she lost her sight tomorrow she could get alot of that just by going to Jim Kitchens website, Draconis Entertainment, or Spoonbill. No need to pay for the Azabat games. On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. What you say about demographics is perfectly true, however there are several points to considder. Firstly, even if we assume that all older blind people over the age of 60 (which if I remember rightly is roughly %75 of all blind people), will only be interested in traditional games, there are far more (and imho far better), examples of those sorts of games than just Azabat available, however sinse Azabat have this image of only appealing to computer novices and have got the backing of the rnib etc that's all people here about. Take blackjack. Azabat are selling blackjack for 13.5 usd. For this you get a game with comparatively few sfx, and recorded speech. In fact the only bennifit I can see in azabat blackjack is the use of graphics. Che however has a far more interesting version of the game available for far less where you can play against others online. if the online aspect is too complex, equally good free versions exist, and personally I don't think the ability to run directly from the cd, which seems Azabat's main selling point, is worth the money (especially sinse it's not difficult to setup a shortcut key for someone to use (which would actually be easier, no chance of dropping the cd ;D). So, even in that field things are covered. Then however is the point that in fact not all people over 60 are automatically useless. I've for instance encountered players in core exiles who are in their 60's, and the lady who lives next door to me uses her pc to do some quite complex things with art and pictures, despite being in her 80's. Heck, my dad is over 60 and loves racing, tank or plane sim, and puzle games (if he lost his site he might very much enjoy some of the racing audiogames available). I actually thinkorganizations like the rnib are far too! insistant on promoting people's helplessness. Pluss if they are like the Rnib they simply forget that that %25 of younger blind people even exist! then, there is the fact that you mentioned, that it won't be so long before some people who grew up in the 60's and 70's start losing their site as well, and certainly they will want computer games to play (I've made the same arguement to the rnib about
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
LOL! FWIW, while I live here in South Africa, I have actually been quite impressed dealing with the export department of the RNIB shop - but, OTOH, I suppose it also happens only when I have already decided what I want them to send me as such, so maybe they think I am a past 60-year old useless person who just wants to give them money, or something, so they don't really care about anything except maybe trying to make me come back and pay them again later on...smile FWIW as well, pretty sure our local council for the blind shop only sells board games, and playing cards as such, let alone actual audio books being offered for sale - but good luck, and hope you can get something to happen/change that side. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 5:09 AM Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups), did a pole a while ago, maybe it'd be worth seeing if they will do something else? Imho this situation needs rectifying, and people need to know there are more and better developers out there than just Azabat, and games to appeal to all sorts of tastes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Lol Jacob, the rnib like people giving them money, maybe they're hoping you'll die and leave cash to them in your will ;D. Actually, I've just phoned guide dogs. The lady there is going to put their head office in touch with me to discuss things with their tech department, though sinse their rather on holiday at the moment it'll be next week. Action for blind people were a litle less helpful (though mostly because the chap I spoke to had only been there a month), and were obsessed with me writing them an informational E-mail about audiogames (despite me telling them on the phone). I've however done that, so we'll see what happens. Beware the grue! Dark. beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage LOL! FWIW, while I live here in South Africa, I have actually been quite impressed dealing with the export department of the RNIB shop - but, OTOH, I suppose it also happens only when I have already decided what I want them to send me as such, so maybe they think I am a past 60-year old useless person who just wants to give them money, or something, so they don't really care about anything except maybe trying to make me come back and pay them again later on...smile FWIW as well, pretty sure our local council for the blind shop only sells board games, and playing cards as such, let alone actual audio books being offered for sale - but good luck, and hope you can get something to happen/change that side. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 5:09 AM Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Tom. i'd not thought of the news papers actually, i'll considder that one though that might take some more doing if I want to kick up a fuss, I might actually wait until i'd done my phd and then can call myself a disability expert ;D. I've contacted two major organizations, Guide dogs, and action for blind people, so we'll see how that works. The idea of organizations etc having a specific view of blind people is a very good one, and also that they have a vested interest in certain forms of promotion which backs up that idea. This is one reason i now have litle or nothing to do with rnib if I can help it. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Well Tom, I'm not sure how it is in the states, but over here there is one group of young blind people who do! conform to stomething of a sterriotype. I've noticed that some blind people (especially those who went to specialist schools), are! pretty useless, expect everything to be done for them, only associate with other blind people etc. That aside though I do know what you mean about organizations having specific ideas of blind people. For instance when I asked the rnib about using a chip and pin card, their response was that I learn one cash machine near my home, but when i pointed out machines can come in different makes and models with different screen prompts and such, they told me to Get my carer to do it rather hard, sinse I live on my own and don't have one, which surprised them ;D. In the end I just fixed things myself by arranging with my bank to have a signature card, so that machines will print out a receit for me to sign when I pay for stuff with it and I can just get actual cash at my local bank. My point though, the rnib had no idea of a blind person living entirely alone and not! having a carer The problem is this atitude is contagious. When I was trying to activate the wireless network on my hub but couldn't due to not being able to read the key on the side, when I phoned the company tech support they told me to get someone to read it for me and when I pointed out there wasn't they said that what other blind people do and put the phone down on me. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Too true - last time they even offered me a slight bit of a discount if I ordered 10+ of a colour sensor I got hold of for someone else this side...LOL! Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Lol Jacob, the rnib like people giving them money, maybe they're hoping you'll die and leave cash to them in your will ;D. Actually, I've just phoned guide dogs. The lady there is going to put their head office in touch with me to discuss things with their tech department, though sinse their rather on holiday at the moment it'll be next week. Action for blind people were a litle less helpful (though mostly because the chap I spoke to had only been there a month), and were obsessed with me writing them an informational E-mail about audiogames (despite me telling them on the phone). I've however done that, so we'll see what happens. Beware the grue! Dark. beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage LOL! FWIW, while I live here in South Africa, I have actually been quite impressed dealing with the export department of the RNIB shop - but, OTOH, I suppose it also happens only when I have already decided what I want them to send me as such, so maybe they think I am a past 60-year old useless person who just wants to give them money, or something, so they don't really care about anything except maybe trying to make me come back and pay them again later on...smile FWIW as well, pretty sure our local council for the blind shop only sells board games, and playing cards as such, let alone actual audio books being offered for sale - but good luck, and hope you can get something to happen/change that side. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 5:09 AM Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well I know for a fact that we have better stuff like as a bat. Its disgusting that an org caters for the poor blind stereo type. Not only that but inferior titles really since simular games, like kitchensinc are out. Then there is the rsgames client and quentin c playroom for online play. These are free and hello! better than that or something I don't know because I don't play as a poor blind persons games. My suggestion is to let well alone. They want to cater for the poor blind, let them, there are plenty of poor blind people that want to be poor blind. And since they can't see anything bar the poor blind the rest of us can laugh about their sillyness and they won't even give a screw. And they won't change. At 03:09 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups), did a pole a while ago, maybe it'd be worth seeing if they will do something else? Imho this situation needs rectifying, and people need to know there are more and better developers out there than just Azabat, and games to appeal to all sorts of tastes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well che There are loads of card games and such round. And its all a matter of choice. What client you want. Free or played, yours, all in play I think are payed for. Then you have rsclient and quentin c which have simular titles on offer. At 03:35 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, I've heard from others the RNIB is a crusty joke as well, though thatâs really all I know of them is hear say. Regarding blind adrenaline, we've not done nearly as much marketing in the U.K. as we should, but as soon as I finish our next game for the card room site sometime in the next two weeks, I'm gonna polish off a few small things in code on the site, then start some more aggressive marketing. at that point BA will not only be the site with the most online games for the blind to play, but also the card games with by far the most features per game, a fact that a lot of potential blind gamers out there don't know. I haven't done much to market BA really overall, as the site has been far more popular than I thought it would be to start with , and I know very little about what marketing options are available in the UK, advertising on UK sites aimed at the visually impaired, possible radio interviews, podcasts, etc. So if you have any suggestions where folks that patronize RNIB might frequent, I'd be glad to do my part to help them realize what is available in the wider world of accessible entertainment that can be had on the cheap. Take care, che -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:09 PM To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Well I started just comming out of the instatutional phase in the 90s. So it was all a bit of a test, now everything has moved foreward. Its not perfect in fact in some aspects, like creative ideas etc has all gone by the book but things change its better than it was. There are sort of instatutions but these are more resource bases you get what you need with in reason. Eventually after a sertain age you may have to pay for bits and bobs as you go, but its a pay as you go thing which I guess is fair etc. Then again I have never really been part of any blind communitys as a whole. So maybe this has saved me from the poor blind instatutional groops that still exist. In fact for the most part bar a few acceptions I lead a normal life and do normal things. Not to mention the people that were supposed to train me only told me what was needed for a poor blind to learn at the time. Though it probably was not their fault per say, I learned everything later. At 03:46 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Mich. I'm afraid one problem I do have as a rather atypical visually impared person (actually I admit I have something of a prejudice against certain sorts of institutionalized blind people), is that I miss some stuff. This might be one. if however you know this podcast service, feel free to give them my contact details (I'll be quite willing to send them off list), and I'll gladly talk to them by phone or in person if necessary. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
not to mention that blackjack and other things are replicated both online, in offline game clients to and as external programs. True these are not all in a suite but I know of at least 3 suites 2 of which are free and at least 1 or so standalones, including 2 older dos standalones and several gwbasic ones. At 03:57 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: The specific reason I mentioned blind adrenaline Che, is that one of the games on the azabat vol 1 cd is blackjack. it seems amazingly unreasonable to me that people who may be interested in playing card games are being palmed off with a version of blackjack which can only be played offline, which has minimal sound effects, no saved chip limit and altogether virtually no features, but are expected to pay 13.5 dollars to do so (54 dollars for the four game volume one game being blackjack). Unreasonable I think. Getting the rnib on board is a dead loss, but I will see about talking to other organizations such as action for blind people and guide dogs. Also, I'm quite willing to act as part time demonstrator to any given organization or person, so if you arranged for instance a demo to a redistributer or advertizer in the Uk I'd be prepared to head down there with my laptop and show stuff off personally, provided I had something towards travel costs and accommodation. this offer goes pretty much for any dev in fact. I'll phone guide dogs and see what I can find out, sinse if Azabat is thought of as the be all and end all in audio games, even just as far as computer versions of card games etc go, something really needs to be done. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well I never play that anyway. Though one of the games we really need is ulsas. You basically are at the bottem of your job ladder your objective is to become the ceo of the company if you fail, then its cleaning toilets for you for the rest of your life. Its simular to monopoly. I was going to put the rules up one of these days but keep forgetting. This was in the days when I played board games with the family. There are also cluedo and loodo and a couple others I'd like converted to standalone programs or whatever. At 03:59 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Azabat Backgammon does have a distinct advantage in that you can take them with you; no internet requitred. Although, overall, there isn't much you would want those for. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:09 PM To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups), did a pole a while ago, maybe it'd be worth seeing if they will do something else? Imho this situation needs rectifying, and people need to know there are more and better developers out there than just Azabat, and games to appeal to all sorts of tastes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Well before this goes offtopic which it will by the morning as it always fills up, Lets just say I have stories I could share with you. Stories about agencies that give you the cheapist equipment which breaks loads and needed replacing at my own cost 2 years later. And software like jaws arriving a day after I graduated from that course. And which due to system upgrades I had to pay to get upgraded, thank god for nvda since I use that mostly in conjunction with supernove screen reader upgraded ofcause but thats another story. I could tell you about those that I will not name that do the jobs you want only to make excuses, break promises and have others coming to do the same again. Then to ask for your cash for a maori trust they belongto. Not to mention the org loosing its creative staffers and job advisers and telling you the standard info whichis quite laughable and helpless. This is one of the reasons why I am not actively searching for a job. I have unofficial feelers out in research and such but yeah. And now because of the quakes in this country the government is cutting everything thats not essentual for the country. Good buy benefits, oh and aparently you need to work else you loose it, just because of fraudsters etc. I could go on but you get the idea and I am sure I don't need to rant on here. And all we ask is to have a fair and normal life as the blind or whatever dissability we are. It looked so rosy, I used to think I had a little advantage over my sighted peers. But these days its like being routed from broadband to the slowest server on the slowest connection at 0.01 bytes per seccond. At 05:46 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Know what you mean. They are literally the only games that I've found that are sold here in the UK. To be honest, RNIB call themselves, a charity Helping people with sight loss, but the only thing they do is go on about how much people have donated or left in a will or something. I met the person who used to be chairman of RNIB back in 2007 and to be honest, he is a complete, posh, (insert language here), and I was more interested in eating food at the time. But Mooving on, We could always try Sight and Sound, who are the UK sellers of screen readers and and magnification software for computers, or else Force Ten, who do a similar thing, but they sell hardware as well. Just my thoughts, which probably don't count for much, but oh well. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 27 April 2011 04:09 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well We have one on radionz.co.nz called one in 5 its supposed to be good and would be but its on at the wrong time. At any rate I could care less about what the media say. As far as media care we are the poor blind. Yeah they do help but most of the time they hinder and make background noise so I learned not to listen. The net has better info than any news station though they are trying to change it. At 05:49 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: There is a radio show over here called In Touch that's on every Tuesday. Mind you, they sometimes go on about and try and promote the RNIB stuff as well at times. The link for the listen again thing if you want to hear the latest show is below. Its normally abut different blind stuff as well and they sometimes feature guide dogs for the blind among other things. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/intouch/ -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Che Sent: 27 April 2011 04:36 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Dark, I've heard from others the RNIB is a crusty joke as well, though thatâs really all I know of them is hear say. Regarding blind adrenaline, we've not done nearly as much marketing in the U.K. as we should, but as soon as I finish our next game for the card room site sometime in the next two weeks, I'm gonna polish off a few small things in code on the site, then start some more aggressive marketing. at that point BA will not only be the site with the most online games for the blind to play, but also the card games with by far the most features per game, a fact that a lot of potential blind gamers out there don't know. I haven't done much to market BA really overall, as the site has been far more popular than I thought it would be to start with , and I know very little about what marketing options are available in the UK, advertising on UK sites aimed at the visually impaired, possible radio interviews, podcasts, etc. So if you have any suggestions where folks that patronize RNIB might frequent, I'd be glad to do my part to help them realize what is available in the wider world of accessible entertainment that can be had on the cheap. Take care, che -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:09 PM To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
not to mention that some blind people refuse to play games in general or associate with the wider community. One of these is a friend that has quentin c because i have her the file but mostly plays with rsgames clients. But thats it and only because people gave it to her one day. At 06:27 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: It is same and true here in BC Canada as well. The CNIB, and all the vision teachers I've spoken to, have no idea about the majority of what's out there for blind people- game or otherwise. In fact, I totally disregarded audio games myself until, on a trip to the guide dog school, I found Shades of Doom on their computer- and was hooked then. First thing I did when I got home was to purchase me a copy, and then started poking into other audio games and so on. When the pen friend first came out, I phoned my friends who worked at CNIB to ask about it- and they didn't even know what I was talking about- in fact, one of them asked me in return about eight months later: Hey, you know anything about pen friend? And these are staff members who are supposed to be there to help opening up/seeking options for blind clients. I've been instructing sighted people on martial art/self defense for years, and have on several occasions trying to extend my service through CNIB to the blind community. All I got were excuses, rejections and cold-shoulder/silent treatments. Yet I can bet you that, if a parent is to approach CNIB today, and ask where/who can they send their visually impaired child to to learn self defense, the organization would most likely just tell them that there is no such service available. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Tom. Similar arguements in the case of blackjack can be made about several of their other games, solitare, scrabble, concentration, mine sweeper, connect four, battleships, basic sudoku (though they do sell several other varients), their 54 dollar crossword cds, hangman, and several other of their word games. Even where the games are! original, it is also often the case that the price required is far more than the game is seemingly worth. for instance, I'd imagine yourself, Jim, or just about any experienced programmer could quite easily create a game of dominoes with not too much effort (the rules are afterall not so different from uno which there is even an online playable version of). yet, Azabat are selling dominoes for the same price as blackjack. However sinse they have the backing from rnib and similar, they are able to sell these things at the price they do without hindrance. It is not that I tthink all their games are dire, or there modus operandi of markiting to computer novices is entirely without merrit, though imho it's just as easy to run say one of the spoonbill games as it is one of theirs, but it just seems a shame when azabat is the only choice offered and effectively all that people will think of when introduced to audiogames. This is typical of the rnib of course, when i phoned them for advice about accessible mobile phones, ie, phones with voice over and other screen readers, they didn't know a thing and the only thing they could offer were phones with big buttons so tied up in a view of blind people as incompitant that they only stock, promote or advertize products that go along with that view and why I'd so like to see about getting some more promotion of other stuff out there. Heck, if I'd been looking for accessible games myself and all i'd heard about was azabat, I'd be entirely put off the idea. Btw, despite my opinions, I am however for the sake of audiogames.net and fairness to write descriptions of Azabat's games as honestly as I can as I have for others. This is one reason I started with their fourth volume, which contains some of their imho better titles like backgammon and draughts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well there are a lot of simple games for the blind but each dev has their own twists. In fact q9 was just a simple side scroller for me. I brought mainly because phil benefall has put humer in the game and it made me laugh. So there is a twist. Each dev has a twist. Ofcause that was before people started hacking and modding games which could be hacked and modded. So the games sound better than they actually are. With in some cases missions changing. Ie technoshock. The story really sucks but with the mod, you can imagine your self like john connor from the terminator films fighting the machines. Ofcause its still the same story but still. At 06:51 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Johny. sounds familiar, I mentioned my very similar expeirence to yours regarding the pen friend with mine and the mobile phone. I actually briefly ran across audio games very early on in 2003 when I was looking at the whitestick.co.uk site's online games list, but disregarded trying them because I suspected they would be far too symplistic and umbed down for me (I admit in many cases I was wrong). It wasn't until in fact Bryan introduced me to shades of doom that I even thought games with sound could be as interesting as the graphical ones I usually play ;d. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
I never g got the hang on that anyway. Never was able to play it right and never was that interested in that anyway. At 07:16 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Yeah, I certainly could write a Dominoes game if I were so inclined. However, the issue isn't weather game x is easy or difficult to program I think what you are talking about is the issue of how one company's or person's product gains dominence in a certain market for seemingly no reason. Unfortunately, I think it all comes down to who you know as they say. For instance, Freedom Scientific's products, especially Jaws, is way over priced when you consider the fact that Window-Eyes and Hal cost less to own. Jaws charges you extra money to run it on say Windows Server, but Window-Eyes does not. Yet despite the fact Window-Eyes has equal quality of Jaws our state agencies still by and actively promote Jaws like its the next best thing to sliced bread. Why? Alot of the reasons just come down to personal bias I think. In the RNIB apparently the people who own and run it have a dim/narrow view of blindness. related issues. They are seen as experts in their field, as knowing what they are doing, even though they have the same old stereotypical view that blind people are 70 years old, need big buttons, braille crossword puzzles, and sit in their rocking chairs and nit all day. That is just personal bias and ignorance of anyone who doesn't fit that mold. Unfortunately, as long as the state and other people come to places like the RNIB for advice they'll continue to give bad advice and the general public weather it is your government, employer, retired grandma, etc will accept it as the truth because they don't know any better themselves. So they will buy Jaws, Azabat games, or whatever else RNIB etc says is good for the blind no matter how far from true it may be. So Azabat and Freedom Scientific are allowed to continue charging their prices without a complaint from their customers. Cheers! On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Similar arguements in the case of blackjack can be made about several of their other games, solitare, scrabble, concentration, mine sweeper, connect four, battleships, basic sudoku (though they do sell several other varients), their 54 dollar crossword cds, hangman, and several other of their word games. Even where the games are! original, it is also often the case that the price required is far more than the game is seemingly worth. for instance, I'd imagine yourself, Jim, or just about any experienced programmer could quite easily create a game of dominoes with not too much effort (the rules are afterall not so different from uno which there is even an online playable version of). yet, Azabat are selling dominoes for the same price as blackjack. However sinse they have the backing from rnib and similar, they are able to sell these things at the price they do without hindrance. It is not that I tthink all their games are dire, or there modus operandi of markiting to computer novices is entirely without merrit, though imho it's just as easy to run say one of the spoonbill games as it is one of theirs, but it just seems a shame when azabat is the only choice offered and effectively all that people will think of when introduced to audiogames. This is typical of the rnib of course, when i phoned them for advice about accessible mobile phones, ie, phones with voice over and other screen readers, they didn't know a thing and the only thing they could offer were phones with big buttons so tied up in a view of blind people as incompitant that they only stock, promote or advertize products that go along with that view and why I'd so like to see about getting some more promotion of other stuff out there. Heck, if I'd been looking for accessible games myself and all i'd heard about was azabat, I'd be entirely put off the idea. Btw, despite my opinions, I am however for the sake of audiogames.net and fairness to write descriptions of Azabat's games as honestly as I can as I have for others. This is one reason I started with their fourth volume, which contains some of their imho better titles like backgammon and draughts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well tom except for beginner manuals I started off with, there are so many shortcuts that bar say games I don't look at manuals or help at all. If a program is done properly then most things will have labeled keys which the reader will read. most have a list of shortcuts. ANd if not depending how they are linked and if they use coman controls then these are used and recognised. At 07:54 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, I here you there. I've seen this attitude that blind people are helpless far too many times than I care to remember. Which reminds me of a funny story that sort of makes this point. As many people know I lost my vision gradually so I had plenty of years to play video games, use computers, etc so naturally when it came time to get ready for college I was already experienced with computers in some way. Well, BSVI purchased a copy of Jaws 2.0, OpenBook 3.0, and Duxberry Braille Translater for me and the tech shows up and installs it on my IBM Aptiva, and leaves saying he'll be back on Saturday to start training. Ok, Saturday comes and he comes in to find me half way through scanning and reading a Stephen King book in Openbook. He asks me what I'm doing and I told him I've been scanning and reading paperbacks all week, writing short stories in MS Word, and this that and the other thing. He was surprised I was able to pick up the basics in under a week and was using my computer as effectively as someone who was professionally trained by him. I explained all I needed to do was listen to the manuals, I.E. the tapes, that came with the software. My point is that these people are so use to a certain type of client that they do forget not all of us are as helpless or need the same level of support as they think. Fortunately, I've always been someone who picks up new concepts quickly which has served me well over the years. It has helped me adapt to new screen readers, new operating systems, learning to program, etc without a lot of third-party special training. In college when I had to use a compiler that wasn't fully accessible with Jaws I set myself to learning the task to learn Jaws scripting and just did it myself without Henter-Joice's, AKA Freedom Scientific's, help. I'm not saying that I'm smarter than everyone else, but I've always been able to be independant about learning new things. So its a bit degrading to here about someone like RNIB and others who treat blind clients as more disabled and helpless than they really are. As you pointed out not everyone who is in the 60 and over catagory nits and does crossword puzzles. My parents are in that age range and the kinds of games my dad plays such as Elf Bowling, various pinball games, etc sounds more like what Draconis Entertainment sells. My mom plays online Monopoly, Blackjack, Hearts, Freecell, as well as a number of classic Atari games like Packman, Centipede, Space Invaders, whatever via an emulator like Stella. If she lost her sight tomorrow she could get alot of that just by going to Jim Kitchens website, Draconis Entertainment, or Spoonbill. No need to pay for the Azabat games. On 4/27/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. What you say about demographics is perfectly true, however there are several points to considder. Firstly, even if we assume that all older blind people over the age of 60 (which if I remember rightly is roughly %75 of all blind people), will only be interested in traditional games, there are far more (and imho far better), examples of those sorts of games than just Azabat available, however sinse Azabat have this image of only appealing to computer novices and have got the backing of the rnib etc that's all people here about. Take blackjack. Azabat are selling blackjack for 13.5 usd. For this you get a game with comparatively few sfx, and recorded speech. In fact the only bennifit I can see in azabat blackjack is the use of graphics. Che however has a far more interesting version of the game available for far less where you can play against others online. if the online aspect is too complex, equally good free versions exist, and personally I don't think the ability to run directly from the cd, which seems Azabat's main selling point, is worth the money (especially sinse it's not difficult to setup a shortcut key for someone to use (which would actually be easier, no chance of dropping the cd ;D). So, even in that field things are covered. Then however is the point that in fact not all people over 60 are automatically useless. I've for instance encountered players in core exiles who are in their 60's, and the lady who lives next door to me uses her pc to do some quite complex things with art and pictures, despite being in her 80's. Heck, my dad is over 60 and loves racing, tank or plane sim, and puzle games (if he lost his site he might very much enjoy some of the racing audiogames available). I actually thinkorganizations like the
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well I went to a special school for a while the way its done these days is half and half. You stay as normal as you can. You do do different training now days here. As you get to sertain ages you learn newer skills eventually you loose support in sertain areas. anything else can be ordered depending what what is avalible or for a price if you need it. Though there is a list once you get old enough. At 09:51 p.m. 27/04/2011, you wrote: Well Tom, I'm not sure how it is in the states, but over here there is one group of young blind people who do! conform to stomething of a sterriotype. I've noticed that some blind people (especially those who went to specialist schools), are! pretty useless, expect everything to be done for them, only associate with other blind people etc. That aside though I do know what you mean about organizations having specific ideas of blind people. For instance when I asked the rnib about using a chip and pin card, their response was that I learn one cash machine near my home, but when i pointed out machines can come in different makes and models with different screen prompts and such, they told me to Get my carer to do it rather hard, sinse I live on my own and don't have one, which surprised them ;D. In the end I just fixed things myself by arranging with my bank to have a signature card, so that machines will print out a receit for me to sign when I pay for stuff with it and I can just get actual cash at my local bank. My point though, the rnib had no idea of a blind person living entirely alone and not! having a carer The problem is this atitude is contagious. When I was trying to activate the wireless network on my hub but couldn't due to not being able to read the key on the side, when I phoned the company tech support they told me to get someone to read it for me and when I pointed out there wasn't they said that what other blind people do and put the phone down on me. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
That's a rather narrow view sean. Afterall in suppose someone, like Tom's mum, went blind in this country and asks about arcade style and online games. who is going to tell her? who does the health service refer her to for support? the rnib, and all they will inform her of game wise would be azabat, and what will she think? What would you or I think in a similar situation? What you have effectively said is that accessible games should only be played by those who take the time and trouble to find them and that we shouldn't make it known to anyone else. such an atitude is rather ridiculous I think if we want to attract new players and give people the possibility of not falling into the poor blind sterriotype you mention. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Wow! You've got to be kidding me! That's bad. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage The specific reason I mentioned blind adrenaline Che, is that one of the games on the azabat vol 1 cd is blackjack. it seems amazingly unreasonable to me that people who may be interested in playing card games are being palmed off with a version of blackjack which can only be played offline, which has minimal sound effects, no saved chip limit and altogether virtually no features, but are expected to pay 13.5 dollars to do so (54 dollars for the four game volume one game being blackjack). Unreasonable I think. Getting the rnib on board is a dead loss, but I will see about talking to other organizations such as action for blind people and guide dogs. Also, I'm quite willing to act as part time demonstrator to any given organization or person, so if you arranged for instance a demo to a redistributer or advertizer in the Uk I'd be prepared to head down there with my laptop and show stuff off personally, provided I had something towards travel costs and accommodation. this offer goes pretty much for any dev in fact. I'll phone guide dogs and see what I can find out, sinse if Azabat is thought of as the be all and end all in audio games, even just as far as computer versions of card games etc go, something really needs to be done. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Blackjack should be clasified as free games in my opinion. - Original Message - From: Harmony Neil harmon...@googlemail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Know what you mean. They are literally the only games that I've found that are sold here in the UK. To be honest, RNIB call themselves, a charity Helping people with sight loss, but the only thing they do is go on about how much people have donated or left in a will or something. I met the person who used to be chairman of RNIB back in 2007 and to be honest, he is a complete, posh, (insert language here), and I was more interested in eating food at the time. But Mooving on, We could always try Sight and Sound, who are the UK sellers of screen readers and and magnification software for computers, or else Force Ten, who do a similar thing, but they sell hardware as well. Just my thoughts, which probably don't count for much, but oh well. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 27 April 2011 04:09 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups), did a pole a while ago, maybe it'd be worth seeing if they will do something else? Imho this situation needs rectifying, and people need to know there are more and better developers out there than just Azabat, and games to appeal to all sorts of tastes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
We can't even prove that there are other better audio games out there. If I were to make a review of an audio game, as well as others, they'd say, you probably learnt the game from a sited person, mixed some sounds and created your own speech, or some other excuse I imagine - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Tom. Similar arguements in the case of blackjack can be made about several of their other games, solitare, scrabble, concentration, mine sweeper, connect four, battleships, basic sudoku (though they do sell several other varients), their 54 dollar crossword cds, hangman, and several other of their word games. Even where the games are! original, it is also often the case that the price required is far more than the game is seemingly worth. for instance, I'd imagine yourself, Jim, or just about any experienced programmer could quite easily create a game of dominoes with not too much effort (the rules are afterall not so different from uno which there is even an online playable version of). yet, Azabat are selling dominoes for the same price as blackjack. However sinse they have the backing from rnib and similar, they are able to sell these things at the price they do without hindrance. It is not that I tthink all their games are dire, or there modus operandi of markiting to computer novices is entirely without merrit, though imho it's just as easy to run say one of the spoonbill games as it is one of theirs, but it just seems a shame when azabat is the only choice offered and effectively all that people will think of when introduced to audiogames. This is typical of the rnib of course, when i phoned them for advice about accessible mobile phones, ie, phones with voice over and other screen readers, they didn't know a thing and the only thing they could offer were phones with big buttons so tied up in a view of blind people as incompitant that they only stock, promote or advertize products that go along with that view and why I'd so like to see about getting some more promotion of other stuff out there. Heck, if I'd been looking for accessible games myself and all i'd heard about was azabat, I'd be entirely put off the idea. Btw, despite my opinions, I am however for the sake of audiogames.net and fairness to write descriptions of Azabat's games as honestly as I can as I have for others. This is one reason I started with their fourth volume, which contains some of their imho better titles like backgammon and draughts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark. I agree with every one of your points, and it was certainly not my intent to imply that all persons in their 60's or older are useless or computer illiterate. Quite the oposite in fact, this is the point I make very day to my students most of whom are in that age group that many many seniors are embracing this technology and there is no reason whatsoever why they should not do so as well. My main reason for bringing up the demographics is merely to point out that many though certainly not all people in that age group either feel that the whole gaming thing is something for the younger people or they are simply not interested. Most of them are not going to go out and buy a copy of something like Shades of Doom or Mota even assuming they know that these things exist. Yes I know there are going to be exceptions but these organizations work on trends and statistics and numbers. Oh I totally agree with you about the asabat stuff I would not pay anything for it even if I had any interest in card games, nor would I let any of my students waste their money. Lastly yes I agree that we need to do whatever we can to at least try to alter the situation. Best regards and game on. Tom -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:48 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Tom. What you say about demographics is perfectly true, however there are several points to considder. Firstly, even if we assume that all older blind people over the age of 60 (which if I remember rightly is roughly %75 of all blind people), will only be interested in traditional games, there are far more (and imho far better), examples of those sorts of games than just Azabat available, however sinse Azabat have this image of only appealing to computer novices and have got the backing of the rnib etc that's all people here about. Take blackjack. Azabat are selling blackjack for 13.5 usd. For this you get a game with comparatively few sfx, and recorded speech. In fact the only bennifit I can see in azabat blackjack is the use of graphics. Che however has a far more interesting version of the game available for far less where you can play against others online. if the online aspect is too complex, equally good free versions exist, and personally I don't think the ability to run directly from the cd, which seems Azabat's main selling point, is worth the money (especially sinse it's not difficult to setup a shortcut key for someone to use (which would actually be easier, no chance of dropping the cd ;D). So, even in that field things are covered. Then however is the point that in fact not all people over 60 are automatically useless. I've for instance encountered players in core exiles who are in their 60's, and the lady who lives next door to me uses her pc to do some quite complex things with art and pictures, despite being in her 80's. Heck, my dad is over 60 and loves racing, tank or plane sim, and puzle games (if he lost his site he might very much enjoy some of the racing audiogames available). I actually thinkorganizations like the rnib are far too! insistant on promoting people's helplessness. Pluss if they are like the Rnib they simply forget that that %25 of younger blind people even exist! then, there is the fact that you mentioned, that it won't be so long before some people who grew up in the 60's and 70's start losing their site as well, and certainly they will want computer games to play (I've made the same arguement to the rnib about recording more sf and fantasy books, though they've not listened). My point is, even with the demographic, things are stil i think far too overblown and unknown about, and it really is a situation we should try to alter. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hope the idea works. I support you though. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Lol Jacob, the rnib like people giving them money, maybe they're hoping you'll die and leave cash to them in your will ;D. Actually, I've just phoned guide dogs. The lady there is going to put their head office in touch with me to discuss things with their tech department, though sinse their rather on holiday at the moment it'll be next week. Action for blind people were a litle less helpful (though mostly because the chap I spoke to had only been there a month), and were obsessed with me writing them an informational E-mail about audiogames (despite me telling them on the phone). I've however done that, so we'll see what happens. Beware the grue! Dark. beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage LOL! FWIW, while I live here in South Africa, I have actually been quite impressed dealing with the export department of the RNIB shop - but, OTOH, I suppose it also happens only when I have already decided what I want them to send me as such, so maybe they think I am a past 60-year old useless person who just wants to give them money, or something, so they don't really care about anything except maybe trying to make me come back and pay them again later on...smile FWIW as well, pretty sure our local council for the blind shop only sells board games, and playing cards as such, let alone actual audio books being offered for sale - but good luck, and hope you can get something to happen/change that side. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 5:09 AM Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark. you might also try contacting the bbc radio program in touch with peater white as hoste and see if you might try getting a segment on that show. hth. from Mich. - Original Message - From: Shiny protector muhamme...@googlemail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Wow! You've got to be kidding me! That's bad. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage The specific reason I mentioned blind adrenaline Che, is that one of the games on the azabat vol 1 cd is blackjack. it seems amazingly unreasonable to me that people who may be interested in playing card games are being palmed off with a version of blackjack which can only be played offline, which has minimal sound effects, no saved chip limit and altogether virtually no features, but are expected to pay 13.5 dollars to do so (54 dollars for the four game volume one game being blackjack). Unreasonable I think. Getting the rnib on board is a dead loss, but I will see about talking to other organizations such as action for blind people and guide dogs. Also, I'm quite willing to act as part time demonstrator to any given organization or person, so if you arranged for instance a demo to a redistributer or advertizer in the Uk I'd be prepared to head down there with my laptop and show stuff off personally, provided I had something towards travel costs and accommodation. this offer goes pretty much for any dev in fact. I'll phone guide dogs and see what I can find out, sinse if Azabat is thought of as the be all and end all in audio games, even just as far as computer versions of card games etc go, something really needs to be done. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Actually Muhammed, that's not the case. I'm currently talking to action for blind people and guide dogs of organizations about getting the knolidge that other games besides azabat's exist, and they showed no schyepticism. It's very easy to tell whether a game is real or false, just try it ;d. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Sounds disturbingly like what most agencies here in the US do with regard to screen readers. THey teach JAWS and unless you happen to get really lucky and get a rehab counselor with a reasonable amount of common sense the don't even tell you that you have other options out there. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Actually Muhammed, that's not the case. I'm currently talking to action for blind people and guide dogs of organizations about getting the knolidge that other games besides azabat's exist, and they showed no schyepticism. It's very easy to tell whether a game is real or false, just try it ;d. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
thats true dark. Its not the case of people actually trying to find the games but for people to know they exist in the first place and to have an interest. This may be hidden and they may discover it by chance only like me. When I started I had no wish to play games, it took a lot of reading the mag to get me interested at all. At 02:24 a.m. 28/04/2011, you wrote: That's a rather narrow view sean. Afterall in suppose someone, like Tom's mum, went blind in this country and asks about arcade style and online games. who is going to tell her? who does the health service refer her to for support? the rnib, and all they will inform her of game wise would be azabat, and what will she think? What would you or I think in a similar situation? What you have effectively said is that accessible games should only be played by those who take the time and trouble to find them and that we shouldn't make it known to anyone else. such an atitude is rather ridiculous I think if we want to attract new players and give people the possibility of not falling into the poor blind sterriotype you mention. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well lets not forget the ones that can't. My grandpa is in that age group 80 pluss. He can't even remember simple commands. When he doesn't know whats going on he switches off the system or randomly pushes buttons to the point where I have to stay by the system or go out with him for a bit hoping it finnishes whatever or it will get stuffed. Hi Dark. I agree with every one of your points, and it was certainly not my intent to imply that all persons in their 60's or older are useless or computer illiterate. Quite the oposite in fact, this is the point I make very day to my students most of whom are in that age group that many many seniors are embracing this technology and there is no reason whatsoever why they should not do so as well. My main reason for bringing up the demographics is merely to point out that many though certainly not all people in that age group either feel that the whole gaming thing is something for the younger people or they are simply not interested. Most of them are not going to go out and buy a copy of something like Shades of Doom or Mota even assuming they know that these things exist. Yes I know there are going to be exceptions but these organizations work on trends and statistics and numbers. Oh I totally agree with you about the asabat stuff I would not pay anything for it even if I had any interest in card games, nor would I let any of my students waste their money. Lastly yes I agree that we need to do whatever we can to at least try to alter the situation. Best regards and game on. Tom -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:48 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Tom. What you say about demographics is perfectly true, however there are several points to considder. Firstly, even if we assume that all older blind people over the age of 60 (which if I remember rightly is roughly %75 of all blind people), will only be interested in traditional games, there are far more (and imho far better), examples of those sorts of games than just Azabat available, however sinse Azabat have this image of only appealing to computer novices and have got the backing of the rnib etc that's all people here about. Take blackjack. Azabat are selling blackjack for 13.5 usd. For this you get a game with comparatively few sfx, and recorded speech. In fact the only bennifit I can see in azabat blackjack is the use of graphics. Che however has a far more interesting version of the game available for far less where you can play against others online. if the online aspect is too complex, equally good free versions exist, and personally I don't think the ability to run directly from the cd, which seems Azabat's main selling point, is worth the money (especially sinse it's not difficult to setup a shortcut key for someone to use (which would actually be easier, no chance of dropping the cd ;D). So, even in that field things are covered. Then however is the point that in fact not all people over 60 are automatically useless. I've for instance encountered players in core exiles who are in their 60's, and the lady who lives next door to me uses her pc to do some quite complex things with art and pictures, despite being in her 80's. Heck, my dad is over 60 and loves racing, tank or plane sim, and puzle games (if he lost his site he might very much enjoy some of the racing audiogames available). I actually thinkorganizations like the rnib are far too! insistant on promoting people's helplessness. Pluss if they are like the Rnib they simply forget that that %25 of younger blind people even exist! then, there is the fact that you mentioned, that it won't be so long before some people who grew up in the 60's and 70's start losing their site as well, and certainly they will want computer games to play (I've made the same arguement to the rnib about recording more sf and fantasy books, though they've not listened). My point is, even with the demographic, things are stil i think far too overblown and unknown about, and it really is a situation we should try to alter. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
well due to living in the north of the country I got dolphin products which I really like. When I get a job then I will use jaws not because its good, its a pile of crap but its what is expected and its funded. if I need an upgrade. ANd for that and that alone I will use jaws. Sounds disturbingly like what most agencies here in the US do with regard to screen readers. THey teach JAWS and unless you happen to get really lucky and get a rehab counselor with a reasonable amount of common sense the don't even tell you that you have other options out there. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Actually Muhammed, that's not the case. I'm currently talking to action for blind people and guide dogs of organizations about getting the knolidge that other games besides azabat's exist, and they showed no schyepticism. It's very easy to tell whether a game is real or false, just try it ;d. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
I'll considder that mich, though bare in mind sinse I don't listen to that program I'm not sure how successful I'd be in selling the idea of accessible games to them. Maybe that would be a better thing for a more frequent listener like yourself to do. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Mich mi...@eastlink.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Dark. you might also try contacting the bbc radio program in touch with peater white as hoste and see if you might try getting a segment on that show. hth. from Mich. - Original Message - From: Shiny protector muhamme...@googlemail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Wow! You've got to be kidding me! That's bad. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage The specific reason I mentioned blind adrenaline Che, is that one of the games on the azabat vol 1 cd is blackjack. it seems amazingly unreasonable to me that people who may be interested in playing card games are being palmed off with a version of blackjack which can only be played offline, which has minimal sound effects, no saved chip limit and altogether virtually no features, but are expected to pay 13.5 dollars to do so (54 dollars for the four game volume one game being blackjack). Unreasonable I think. Getting the rnib on board is a dead loss, but I will see about talking to other organizations such as action for blind people and guide dogs. Also, I'm quite willing to act as part time demonstrator to any given organization or person, so if you arranged for instance a demo to a redistributer or advertizer in the Uk I'd be prepared to head down there with my laptop and show stuff off personally, provided I had something towards travel costs and accommodation. this offer goes pretty much for any dev in fact. I'll phone guide dogs and see what I can find out, sinse if Azabat is thought of as the be all and end all in audio games, even just as far as computer versions of card games etc go, something really needs to be done. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups), did a pole a while ago, maybe it'd be worth seeing if they will do something else? Imho this situation needs rectifying, and people need to know there are more and better developers out there than just Azabat, and games to appeal to all sorts of tastes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark, I've heard from others the RNIB is a crusty joke as well, though that’s really all I know of them is hear say. Regarding blind adrenaline, we've not done nearly as much marketing in the U.K. as we should, but as soon as I finish our next game for the card room site sometime in the next two weeks, I'm gonna polish off a few small things in code on the site, then start some more aggressive marketing. at that point BA will not only be the site with the most online games for the blind to play, but also the card games with by far the most features per game, a fact that a lot of potential blind gamers out there don't know. I haven't done much to market BA really overall, as the site has been far more popular than I thought it would be to start with , and I know very little about what marketing options are available in the UK, advertising on UK sites aimed at the visually impaired, possible radio interviews, podcasts, etc. So if you have any suggestions where folks that patronize RNIB might frequent, I'd be glad to do my part to help them realize what is available in the wider world of accessible entertainment that can be had on the cheap. Take care, che -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:09 PM To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups), did a pole a while ago, maybe it'd be worth seeing if they will do something else? Imho this situation needs rectifying, and people need to know there are more and better developers out there than just Azabat, and games to appeal to all sorts of tastes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark as for epople in the uk to contact have you tryed contacting in touch and peater white? there you might get alot of lisseners since alot of people from the uk and out side of the uk lissen to there podcasts etc. that is just a thought. and I know what you meena bout the rnib since the cnib hear in Canada is a joke as well. well I hope this helps. from Mich. - Original Message - From: Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi Dark, I've heard from others the RNIB is a crusty joke as well, though that’s really all I know of them is hear say. Regarding blind adrenaline, we've not done nearly as much marketing in the U.K. as we should, but as soon as I finish our next game for the card room site sometime in the next two weeks, I'm gonna polish off a few small things in code on the site, then start some more aggressive marketing. at that point BA will not only be the site with the most online games for the blind to play, but also the card games with by far the most features per game, a fact that a lot of potential blind gamers out there don't know. I haven't done much to market BA really overall, as the site has been far more popular than I thought it would be to start with , and I know very little about what marketing options are available in the UK, advertising on UK sites aimed at the visually impaired, possible radio interviews, podcasts, etc. So if you have any suggestions where folks that patronize RNIB might frequent, I'd be glad to do my part to help them realize what is available in the wider world of accessible entertainment that can be had on the cheap. Take care, che -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:09 PM To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Mich. I'm afraid one problem I do have as a rather atypical visually impared person (actually I admit I have something of a prejudice against certain sorts of institutionalized blind people), is that I miss some stuff. This might be one. if however you know this podcast service, feel free to give them my contact details (I'll be quite willing to send them off list), and I'll gladly talk to them by phone or in person if necessary. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
The specific reason I mentioned blind adrenaline Che, is that one of the games on the azabat vol 1 cd is blackjack. it seems amazingly unreasonable to me that people who may be interested in playing card games are being palmed off with a version of blackjack which can only be played offline, which has minimal sound effects, no saved chip limit and altogether virtually no features, but are expected to pay 13.5 dollars to do so (54 dollars for the four game volume one game being blackjack). Unreasonable I think. Getting the rnib on board is a dead loss, but I will see about talking to other organizations such as action for blind people and guide dogs. Also, I'm quite willing to act as part time demonstrator to any given organization or person, so if you arranged for instance a demo to a redistributer or advertizer in the Uk I'd be prepared to head down there with my laptop and show stuff off personally, provided I had something towards travel costs and accommodation. this offer goes pretty much for any dev in fact. I'll phone guide dogs and see what I can find out, sinse if Azabat is thought of as the be all and end all in audio games, even just as far as computer versions of card games etc go, something really needs to be done. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Hi Dark, Azabat Backgammon does have a distinct advantage in that you can take them with you; no internet requitred. Although, overall, there isn't much you would want those for. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:09 PM To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage Hi. As people might know, I've been doing a lot of work on the audiogames.net database and something rather odd struck me. I'm finally adding in descriptions for the azabat games (not the least because the developer did send me the demo cd about a year ago and I stil haven't updated them). Azabat is the only developer of audiogames sold through the rnib. This is of course because the Azabat's aim, of providing nice old blind people with easy games to play at exaubitant prices (can you tell I'm not impressed!), goes along very much with the rnib, an organization who quite literally don't notice visually impared people under the age of 60 or so exist, mostly because younger people are less likely to give them donations in their will, I'm serious! at a so called information day the rnib spent about two hours just talking about will donations to them, --- and most of the rest of the time saying how great they were providing dayly living skills services the amount of times myself, or another member of my family (most recently my dad in a survay), has given them what for over this, whether it's about what books they record (sinse their main producer of accessible books in this country given that the government does bugger all), or about what services they provide, they really! don't like the idea that people younger than about 60, or who have interest outside knitting and braille crosswords exist (I'm serious, there are several amagazines devoted to knitting patterns alone, but nothing whatsoever on roleplay). And if you tell them this they ignore you (the survey lady slammed the phone down on my dad after he'd said this). Anyway, getting the wranting train under control,my point is azabat, dispite producing games which are no better (and in many case not as good), as others around even in the same catagory like the recently released pontes backgammon (lacking graphics but having online play), and all of the spoonbill and blind adrenaline type stuff, yet have a huge record in this country simply! because they have had publicity through the Royally nasty inhibition of the blind, aka the rnib (oooh, I made a funny!). This doesn't seem correct, but I am now wondering what can be done about it. The business of sending myself to site village, the uk tech show didn't really advance much unfortunately mostly due to booking costs and such, but possibly a more reasonable organization such as Guide dogs (who do a lot more than train dogs, I've been skeeing, touring egypt, cycling and goodness knows what with their holiday crew in the past) would be open to discussion, especially sinse they do deal with blind people who aren't the sterriotypical poor old useless individuals the rnib think they are. I've already introduced a friend of mine who does voluntry tech support at a charity for helping disabled computer users in her local area to audiogames.net and pcs games so she can show people some of the fun things their computers will do. When i red The only computer games sold by the rnib It made me actually pretty mad, so it's time to do something about it. Any suggestions for people to contact? I'm not familiar with us or european organizations, but is there a stink we can kick up? Action for blind people here (another of the smaller but nicer groups), did a pole a while ago, maybe it'd be worth seeing if they will do something else? Imho this situation needs rectifying, and people need to know there are more and better developers out there than just Azabat, and games to appeal to all sorts of tastes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
I'm hoping manu will fix the internet business of pontes backgammon soon, sinse I don't think that was his intention. In fact my only real problem with pontes backgammon is I've not found anyone online at all ever despite having the game open many times. I hope it's working correctly. Actually haiden, I'll host a game now just to see (we don't have to play if you don't fancy it, but I'd just like to check the online bit isn't going wrong for some reason). beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The importance of patronage
Dark, You are right. That is a bit unreasonable given there are a number of accessible Blackjack games just as good. We have Jim's Casino, and of course I have been revising USA Blackjack to run on Windows, Linux, and hopefully Mac if I find someone to do the port. Paying $13 or $14 for a Blackjack game these days is a bit expensive. Cheers! On 4/26/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: The specific reason I mentioned blind adrenaline Che, is that one of the games on the azabat vol 1 cd is blackjack. it seems amazingly unreasonable to me that people who may be interested in playing card games are being palmed off with a version of blackjack which can only be played offline, which has minimal sound effects, no saved chip limit and altogether virtually no features, but are expected to pay 13.5 dollars to do so (54 dollars for the four game volume one game being blackjack). Unreasonable I think. Getting the rnib on board is a dead loss, but I will see about talking to other organizations such as action for blind people and guide dogs. Also, I'm quite willing to act as part time demonstrator to any given organization or person, so if you arranged for instance a demo to a redistributer or advertizer in the Uk I'd be prepared to head down there with my laptop and show stuff off personally, provided I had something towards travel costs and accommodation. this offer goes pretty much for any dev in fact. I'll phone guide dogs and see what I can find out, sinse if Azabat is thought of as the be all and end all in audio games, even just as far as computer versions of card games etc go, something really needs to be done. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
