subject:"Re\: z\/OS is antique WAS\: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers"

Gil,

Your correct it's an idiom..slang...more or less...in 3 yrs in Switzerland I 
learned I needed a better accent to speak French and Swiss German and don't ask 
for items in French in a Swiss German canton or State..it ain't pretty

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


> On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:32 PM, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 07:34:48 +1100, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
>> 
>> Literal translation would be "that goes", ca va is a shortened "comment ca
>> va", ie how goes it(that)?. OK would be ca va bien. Without bien it's
>> meaningless in the context. Bien would be the OK piece, ie fine
> Think "idiom".  First relevant Google hit:
> 
>http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/a/cava.htm
> 
> (Spelling: "ça va".)
> 
> -- gil
> 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Phil Smith

Tony Harminc wrote:
>Unfortunately that takes me to https://www.google.ca, which doesn't
>seem to have a "search tools" choice. I can force Google to go to the
>.com (i.e. US) site, but it's still HTTPS, and it still has no search
>tools that I can see. And merely quoting a phrase doesn't (contrary to
>their claim) restrict the search to the exact quoted string.

The "Search Tools" appear on *results* pages, to refine them. Sorry, I totally 
buggered this up by not mentioning that wee detail!

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 07:34:48 +1100, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:

>Literal translation would be "that goes", ca va is a shortened "comment ca
>va", ie how goes it(that)?. OK would be ca va bien. Without bien it's
>meaningless in the context. Bien would be the OK piece, ie fine
> 
Think "idiom".  First relevant Google hit:

http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/a/cava.htm

(Spelling: "ça va".)

-- gil

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

Gil and R.S.,

I was curious about VMS because I haven't worked on that platform. Worked many 
others in a past life supporting LU 6.2 file transfer on 26 platforms. But that 
was like a lifetime ago.
I went from OS/VS2 to VSE to VM/VSE , then MVS so I feel your pain Gil

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


> On Dec 5, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:38:46 -0500, Scott Ford wrote:
>> 
>> I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or 
>> is it's own thang
> What's "*nix like"?  On a cursory brush, I believe VMS has a hierarchic
> filesystem.  That's *nix like.  It doesn't have an ALLOCATE command.
> That's *nix like.  Its files can have attributes.  That's MVS-like.
> 
> I knew two programmers: one transplanted from a UNIX environment
> to VMS who spent much effort customing his VMS profile to make VMS
> behave like UNIX; the other transplanted from a UNIX environment
> who tried to make VMS behave like UNIX.  Myself?  I spent (wasted)
> enormous effort trying to make the uglier parts of XEDIT behave like
> their nicer ISPF analogues.
> 
> VMS delimits its version numbers with ';'.  Imagine how that must
> infuriate anyone accustomed to using ';' as a command separator.
> 
> And an alien once asked me, "VM is a version of MVS, isn't it?"
> 
> -- gil
> 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Anne & Lynn Wheeler

paulgboul...@aim.com (Paul Gilmartin) writes:
> And an alien once asked me, "VM is a version of MVS, isn't it?"

cms had about 64kbytes of code that was the "os" simulator that allowed
"os" compilers and many applications to run unmodified.

the burlington mall vm370 development group was working on a much more
complete coverage of os simulation ... joke about cms 64kbyte os/360
simulation was much more cost effective than mvs 8mbyte os/360
simulation.

this was about the time the FS effort failed, mad rush to get products
back into the 370 pipeline (having been suspended and/or killed off
during the FS period)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

head of POK also managed to convince corporate to kill the vm370
product, shutdown burlington mall group, and transfer all the burlington
mall developers to POK or otherwise MVS/XA wouldn't ship on
time. Endicott eventually managed to save the vm370 product mission but
had to reconstitute a development group from scratch.

the shutdown of burlington was going on in extreme secret, not planning
on telling the people until a few weeks before it was effective
... minimizing the number of people that would be able to escape the
move to POK. however, the shutdown managed to leak a few months early
... and numerous people managed to escape ... so many going to work at
DEC on VMS (very early in its development, well before first VMS release
shipped) ... that somebody observed that the head of POK was one of the
biggest contributors to VMS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX

The major expansion of os/360 simulation for cms disappeared in the
shutdown of the burlington mall group ... and the major person
responsible was one of those that went to DEC.

old post with decade of vax/vms numbers sliced and diced by year,
model, US/non-US ... etc:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

vax/vms sold into much the same mid-range market against vm/4300 ... and
in similar numbers ... for small order sizes (one or few machines). A
big difference was large corporations ordering several hundred vm/4300s
at a time for deployment out in departmental areas. A past post
mentioning explosion in vm/4300 departmental machines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers

the explosion of vm/4300 machines inside ibm was one of the
reasons the internal network passed 1000 nodes in 1983
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet

-- 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread R.S.

W dniu 2013-12-05 19:38, Scott Ford pisze:

I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or is
it's own thang
In simple words: No. VMS is similar to ...VMS, and maybe older DEC
systems which I don't know (RSX-11 AFAIR).

Few concepts of VMS:
Unix has single root, VMS has "drives" similar to DOS/Windows (AFAIR not
drive LETTER, but drive NAME)

both systems use directory, subdirectory concept to for grouping files
another syntax, square parentheses are used for pathname
interesting thing: [...] means "this directory and all subdirectories.
Can be used for i.e. DEL *.BAK in whole tree.
Filename is file.extension both components up to 40 characters. only two
components (qualifiers) allowed. Second qualifier plays role similar to
DOS extension, i.e. LOGIN.COM is king of .profile or AUTOEXEC.BAT and
it's executable script. Files also have third part: version, usually
omitted. Full name is FILE.EXTENSION;version (a number).
All file names were uppercase charcters allowed wer similar to MVS. No
tricky names possible (try to use filename * in Unix and then delete it).
Directories can be nested up to 8 levels. further nesting is allowed,
but indirectly: you have to create 'symbolic' drive at some directory level.

Most files are plain like in unix or DOS/Windows, but some file can have
internal structure - like PS, or VSAM.

Commands are much longer than in Unix.
Command syntax is similar to DOS, but command names and parameters tend
to be longer.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

Yep..but on Switzerland French shall we say interesting like the Swiss German

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


> On Dec 5, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:
> 
> Literal translation would be "that goes", ca va is a shortened "comment ca
> va", ie how goes it(that)?. OK would be ca va bien. Without bien it's
> meaningless in the context. Bien would be the OK piece, ie fine
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Scott Ford  wrote:
>> 
>> Hey zMan,
>> 
>> I entered 'ca va' in French comes bac as 'okay' which is correct, I lived
>> in Europe and spoke French. Very impressive converting languages
>> 
>> Scott ford
>> www.identityforge.com
>> from my IPAD
>> 
>> 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:09 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Or go to Google Translate (translate.google.com). It even handles
>>> transliterations quite well: put in "spasebo" and tell it's Russian; it
>>> will say:
>>> Did you mean: спасебо
>>> and then you can translate *that*. I've even had it guess when the
>>> transliteration wasn't quite right, and get it right (I concluded, based
>> on
>>> context).
>>> 
>>> We're getting pretty far OT here, not that that's anything new.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Mike Schwab 
>> wrote:
 
 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
  wrote:
 
> My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then
 Google is useless.
 
 Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
 (use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).
 
 --
 Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
 Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Wayne V. Bickerdike
> 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

Literal translation would be "that goes", ca va is a shortened "comment ca
va", ie how goes it(that)?. OK would be ca va bien. Without bien it's
meaningless in the context. Bien would be the OK piece, ie fine


On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Scott Ford  wrote:

> Hey zMan,
>
> I entered 'ca va' in French comes bac as 'okay' which is correct, I lived
> in Europe and spoke French. Very impressive converting languages
>
> Scott ford
> www.identityforge.com
> from my IPAD
>
> 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
>
>
> > On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:09 PM, zMan  wrote:
> >
> > Or go to Google Translate (translate.google.com). It even handles
> > transliterations quite well: put in "spasebo" and tell it's Russian; it
> > will say:
> > Did you mean: спасебо
> > and then you can translate *that*. I've even had it guess when the
> > transliteration wasn't quite right, and get it right (I concluded, based
> on
> > context).
> >
> > We're getting pretty far OT here, not that that's anything new.
> >
> >
> >> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Mike Schwab 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >>> My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then
> >> Google is useless.
> >> 
> >> Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
> >> (use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).
> >>
> >> --
> >> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> >> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
> >>
> >> --
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
> >
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:38:46 -0500, Scott Ford wrote:

>I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or 
>is it's own thang
> 
What's "*nix like"?  On a cursory brush, I believe VMS has a hierarchic
filesystem.  That's *nix like.  It doesn't have an ALLOCATE command.
That's *nix like.  Its files can have attributes.  That's MVS-like.

I knew two programmers: one transplanted from a UNIX environment
to VMS who spent much effort customing his VMS profile to make VMS
behave like UNIX; the other transplanted from a UNIX environment
who tried to make VMS behave like UNIX.  Myself?  I spent (wasted)
enormous effort trying to make the uglier parts of XEDIT behave like
their nicer ISPF analogues.

VMS delimits its version numbers with ';'.  Imagine how that must
infuriate anyone accustomed to using ';' as a command separator.

And an alien once asked me, "VM is a version of MVS, isn't it?"

-- gil

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or is 
it's own thang

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


> On Dec 4, 2013, at 9:57 PM, "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" 
>  wrote:
> 
> In <1mhu99pv4m3ki96ug6d0g46nb44j1bc...@4ax.com>, on 12/04/2013
>   at 11:16 AM, Clark Morris  said:
> 
>> What was the VMS facility like?
> 
> Part of the naming syntax was a version number, and there was a
> command to control how many versions of a specific file to retain. If
> you omitted the version number then you got the most recent version.
> 
> -- 
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
> ISO position; see  
> We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
> (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
> 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread John McKown

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) <
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net> wrote:

> In
> ,
> on 12/04/2013
>at 11:09 AM, John McKown  said:
>
> >NVT?
>
> See TELNET PROTOCOL SPECIFICATION, RFC 854.
>

Thanks. I am not any kind of expert, but the "otelnetd" UNIX daemon that I
mentioned in a previous post in this thread _seems to me_ to implement this
fairly well. It works fine with both the Linux and Windows "telnet"
command. In our shop, this gets the user a z/OS UNIX shell environment
which is similar to a Linux shell prompt or a Windows "cmd.exe" prompt. In
my case, on the Linux side, before I do the telnet command, I do an "export
TERM=xterm". z/OS UNIX does not understand the "normal" TERM value of
"xterm-256color" set by the Konsole command shell which I use on Linux.

>
> --
>  Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
>  ISO position; see 
> We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
> (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
>
> --
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-- 
This is clearly another case of too many mad scientists, and not enough
hunchbacks.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In <1mhu99pv4m3ki96ug6d0g46nb44j1bc...@4ax.com>, on 12/04/2013
   at 11:16 AM, Clark Morris  said:

>What was the VMS facility like?

Part of the naming syntax was a version number, and there was a
command to control how many versions of a specific file to retain. If
you omitted the version number then you got the most recent version.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
,
on 12/04/2013
   at 07:46 AM, Phil Smith  said:

>Well, common sense would suggest
>www.google.com. 

Common sense is frequently wrong.

>Try that.

BTDT,GTS
 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
,
on 12/04/2013
   at 11:09 AM, John McKown  said:

>NVT? 

See TELNET PROTOCOL SPECIFICATION, RFC 854.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
,
on 12/04/2013
   at 10:09 AM, John Gilmore  said:

>We're not dealing with what Google wishes to "honor", 

Of course we are.

>We're dealing with the problem of resolving semantic ambiguity, 

No. We're dealing with a web page that has labels that do not
correspond with what the search engine actually does. There is no
ambiguity in "exact".
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Tony Harminc

On 4 December 2013 19:33, Tony Harminc  wrote:
>> Well, common sense would suggest www.google.com. Try 
>> that.
>
> Unfortunately that takes me to https://www.google.ca, which doesn't
> seem to have a "search tools" choice. I can force Google to go to the
> .com (i.e. US) site, but it's still HTTPS, and it still has no search
> tools that I can see. And merely quoting a phrase doesn't (contrary to
> their claim) restrict the search to the exact quoted string.

Ah - Search Tools is on the search *results* screen, i.e. after the
initial non-verbatim search. Thanks!

Tony H.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Tony Harminc

On 4 December 2013 10:46, Phil Smith  wrote:
>
> Well, common sense would suggest www.google.com. Try 
> that.

Unfortunately that takes me to https://www.google.ca, which doesn't
seem to have a "search tools" choice. I can force Google to go to the
.com (i.e. US) site, but it's still HTTPS, and it still has no search
tools that I can see. And merely quoting a phrase doesn't (contrary to
their claim) restrict the search to the exact quoted string.

Tony H.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Scott Ford

Hey zMan,

I entered 'ca va' in French comes bac as 'okay' which is correct, I lived in 
Europe and spoke French. Very impressive converting languages

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:09 PM, zMan  wrote:
> 
> Or go to Google Translate (translate.google.com). It even handles
> transliterations quite well: put in "spasebo" and tell it's Russian; it
> will say:
> Did you mean: спасебо
> and then you can translate *that*. I've even had it guess when the
> transliteration wasn't quite right, and get it right (I concluded, based on
> context).
> 
> We're getting pretty far OT here, not that that's anything new.
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then
>> Google is useless.
>> 
>> Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
>> (use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).
>> 
>> --
>> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
>> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
> 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread zMan

Or go to Google Translate (translate.google.com). It even handles
transliterations quite well: put in "spasebo" and tell it's Russian; it
will say:
Did you mean: спасебо
and then you can translate *that*. I've even had it guess when the
transliteration wasn't quite right, and get it right (I concluded, based on
context).

We're getting pretty far OT here, not that that's anything new.

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
>  wrote:
> 
> > My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then
> Google is useless.
> 
> Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
> (use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).
>
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Mike Schwab

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
 wrote:

> My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then 
> Google is useless.

Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
(use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).

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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread DASDBILL2

I search for single words not in English almost every day, always with Google's 
Advanced Search, and Google is very useful for me. 

E.g., earlier today I searched for " κρυπτός " and found this url in the first 
hit:   http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CF%85%CF%80%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%82 

This webpage in Wiktionary told me that my search word is an ancient Greek word 
meaning "hidden" or "secret" in modern English.  This was not useless.  I have 
also found what I needed to know sometimes by getting a hit on a webpage that 
is in French, Spanish, or some other language that I can read well enough to 
determine, e.g., the gender of the search word or its English meaning, when I 
could not quickly find such a page in English. 

Bill Fairchild 

Franklin, TN 

- Original Message -

From: "Elardus Engelbrecht"  
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 9:16:18 AM 
Subject: Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging 
Sysprogs = Aging Farmers 

My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then Google 
is useless. 



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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:09:08 -0500, John Gilmore  wrote:
>
>We're not dealing with what Google wishes to "honor",  We're dealing
>with the problem of resolving semantic ambiguity, which humans are
>extraordinarily good at and even ther best AI methods cannot reaslly
>cope with.
> 
Watson?  But how would Watson do on a NYT crossword puzzle?  A
recent example: the clue was "John Paul's successor".  The answer,
"Elena".  (I got it mostly on intersecting words.)  Resolving semantic
ambiguity depends on lots of background, cultural context.

-- gil

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread John McKown

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:34 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) <
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net> wrote:

> In
> ,
> on 12/03/2013
>at 06:53 PM, Mike Schwab  said:
>
> >My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
> >name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF
> >key.
>
> Various *ix shells have file completion. Is there an open requirement
> for IBM to support it for an NVT login to OMVS?
>

NVT? I can use both/either ssh and/or telnet (line mode) to get a TCPIP
connection directly to a z/OS UNIX shell (no VTAM involved beyond the TRLE
which controls the OSA). The ssh connection is via OpenSSH (to which I
added the enhancements from Dovetailed Technologies). The telnet connection
is via the inetd UNIX daemon (started task). I don't know of any way to use
VTAM in "line mode", such as a 3767 LU-1 emulation, to get a UNIX shell,
but don't know why I would want to that either.

To start inetd at OMVS startup, I put a line in /etc/rc like:

_BPX_JOBNAME=INETD /usr/sbin/inetd /etc/inetd.conf &

and have a /etc/inetd.conf file containing the line:

2023 stream tcpip nowait BPXROOT /usr/sbin/otelnetd otelnetd -l -t -D login

I use port 2023 because, for some weird reason, we have port 23 going into
VTAM. This despite the fact that nothing is really using port 23 in VTAM.
Likely something "left over" from an IBM supplied member which I'm too much
of a coward to change.

/bin/sh can do a very primitive form of completion in "vi" mode wth the
ctrl-\ key. But it is a very poor implementation because once it expands to
the first non-matching character, it does not display the alternatives
possible at that point.

The ported BASH shell, although very old, does do file completion
"properly" via the TAB (^i) key.

>
> --
>  Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
>  ISO position; see 
>

-- 
This is clearly another case of too many mad scientists, and not enough
hunchbacks.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread R.S.

W dniu 2013-12-04 16:16, Clark Morris pisze:

On 29 Nov 2013 14:02:35 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

In <0378217484586824.wa.zatlas1yahoo@listserv.ua.edu>, on
11/29/2013
at 11:47 AM, "Ze'ev Atlas" said:

Again, you discuss the shortcoming of a specific system while I have
a broad view.

You're specific systems; I'm still trying to figure out what it is in
them that you want to change.

There would always be the need to disambiguate.

Then what behavior do you want to change? For normal use in Unix,
including z/OS, and for legacy z/OS data sets, the user just gives a
name and the system figures out where it is.

That's correct and that's where I took the idea from. That concept
needs improvements

No doubt, but so far you haven't identified any defect that a new type
of catalog would resolve.

Another great idea from the z/OS that deserve implementation in
that context (i.e. Central System Catalog) is the famous GDG.
Whenever I explain the concept to my Unix friends they agree that
such a brilliant idea should have been implemented in Unix as well.

They'd do better stealing the idea from DEC, specifically from VMS.

There is at least one shell that runs on HP-UX that implement a GDG
like facility with just a g instead of a gv00. What was the
VMS facility like?

1. VMS is not Unix and it's probably even more vanishing platform than z/OS.
2. In my not so humble opinion idea of GDG is simply uncompleted. While
I could understand memory constraints in 60's or 70's I cannot accept
lack of LIMIT(365) or more, to mention the most annoying drwaback.
3. IMHO the reason for GDG "uncompletness" is ...batch scheduler
existence. Most serious shops do use any of them and each batcg
scheduler offers more or less sophisticated features which are far more
flexible than GDG. It's not goo-voo, it is %%ODATE, with many possible
date calculations like "yesterday" or "last working day" or "last
working day in previous month", etc. etc.

My €0,02

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Phil Smith

Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
>What URL? I normally use
>. Or are you referring to
>a google browser plugin rather than their web site?

Well, common sense would suggest www.google.com. Try 
that.

...phsiii

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread John Gilmore

. . . previous post continued

[q]ueries and the placement of advertisements.  Yesterday we had a
discussion of the LE HEAPCHECK facilitiy.  Googling it this morning
yielded advertisements for cheap personalized bank checks.

Given the current state of the art exclusion oif notional irrelevance
is more difficult than providing relevance.  If such a line as

I used my pen to pen a description of the pen in the pen.

is improved my providing disambiguating context, as in

I used my Mont Blanc pen to pen a description of the pen and her
cygnets in trhe poultry pen.

more relevant information will be turned up, but irrelevant responses
will not  be excluded.

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Clark Morris

On 29 Nov 2013 14:02:35 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

>In <0378217484586824.wa.zatlas1yahoo@listserv.ua.edu>, on
>11/29/2013
>   at 11:47 AM, "Ze'ev Atlas"  said:
>
>>Again, you discuss the shortcoming of a specific system while I have
>>a broad view.
>
>You're specific systems; I'm still trying to figure out what it is in
>them that you want to change.
>
>>There would always be the need to disambiguate.
>
>Then what behavior do you want to change? For normal use in Unix,
>including z/OS, and for legacy z/OS data sets, the user just gives a
>name and the system figures out where it is.
>
>>That's correct and that's where I took the idea from.  That concept
>>needs improvements
>
>No doubt, but so far you haven't identified any defect that a new type
>of catalog would resolve.
>
>>Another great idea from the z/OS that deserve implementation in 
>>that context (i.e. Central System Catalog) is the famous GDG.  
>>Whenever I explain the concept to my Unix friends they agree that 
>>such a brilliant idea should have been implemented in Unix as well.
>
>They'd do better stealing the idea from DEC, specifically from VMS.
> 
There is at least one shell that runs on HP-UX that implement a GDG
like facility with just a g instead of a gv00.  What was the
VMS facility like?

Clark Morris

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Elardus Engelbrecht

Tony Harminc said:
>But for that matter, even Google insists on searching for things vaguely close 
>to what I asked for, rather then the actual thing.

Indeed. I sometimes had to use advanced searches, but you need to search (sic) 
for that picture of a gear (options), where you can then search (sic) for 
'advanced search'. 

Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

>I don't recall google ever honoring a request for an exact match.

Neither me, but I hate 'Instant predictions', so I usually turn that feature 
off.

I don't like to see (annoying) sponsored hits, but then Google is a free thing 
and must make money in one or other way. 

My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then Google 
is useless.

Perfect search engines have not been invented, but I recall in the early years 
of Internet, you could hire 'search experts' to do searches for 'search 
challenged' dummies... :-D

Hmmm, now with all those threads, how do you search for that perfect Operating 
System? :-D

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
,
on 12/03/2013
   at 04:48 PM, Phil Smith  said:

>Re Google:

What URL? I normally use
. Or are you referring to
a google browser plugin rather than their web site?

>use "verbatim" search. Look under "Search tools",

Do you mean "search"? I don't see "Search tools".
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread John Gilmore

|| But for that matter, even Google insists on searching for things
|| vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then the actual thing.

| I don't recall google ever honoring a request for an exact match.

We're not dealing with what Google wishes to "honor",  We're dealing
with the problem of resolving semantic ambiguity, which humans are
extraordinarily good at and even ther best AI methods cannot reaslly
cope with.

Interestingly, Google ujses essentially the same methods for q

On 12/4/13, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)  wrote:
> In
> ,
> on 12/03/2013
>at 06:53 PM, Mike Schwab  said:
>
>>My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
>>name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF
>>key.
>
> Various *ix shells have file completion. Is there an open requirement
> for IBM to support it for an NVT login to OMVS?
>
> --
>  Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
>  ISO position; see 
> We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
> (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
>
> --
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-- 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
,
on 12/03/2013
   at 06:53 PM, Mike Schwab  said:

>My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
>name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF
>key.

Various *ix shells have file completion. Is there an open requirement
for IBM to support it for an NVT login to OMVS?
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
,
on 12/03/2013
   at 07:00 PM, Tony Harminc  said:

>But for that matter, even Google insists on searching for things 
>vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then the actual thing.

I don't recall google ever honoring a request for an exact match.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
,
on 12/03/2013
   at 06:49 PM, Tony Harminc  said:

>OK. STATUS with no operands doesn't call the TSO 
>CANCEL/STATUS/OUTPUT exit, but a JES exit can perform job 
>selection for STATUS using any criteria it likes.

Has IBM changed the FIB-JES interface? If not, it can't be done.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Scott Ford

Mike,
I like that solution, very nice . Love time savers ...especially when your up 
to your ...in alligators 

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


> On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:53 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
> 
> My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
> name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF key.
> The routine would open a popup window with a list of possible
> matches.  You could select a option by tabbing to the line with the
> desired match and pressing enter, or alter the search argument and
> pressing enter to search again.  Would work very much like ISPF 3.4 or
> the mentioned directory listing.
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Phil Smith  wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tony Harminc 
>>> mailto:t...@harminc.net>> wrote:
>>> I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
>>> "dumbed down" the search interface to the point that it's almost
>>> impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
>>> inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
>>> searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
>>> the actual thing.
>> 
>> Thank you, Tony: I thought it was just me! Drives me nuts. I wind up opening 
>> a command prompt and using DIR (or grep, depending).
>> 
>> Re Google: use "verbatim" search. Look under "Search tools", then "All 
>> results" to find that. I discovered this when I was trying to factcheck a 
>> story about an elderly man who got a sensitive part of his anatomy stuck in 
>> a chair (I forget why this was interesting at the time, honest!). The word I 
>> was searching for has three syllables and begins with "t", but Google kept 
>> presenting results that had the word "balls" in them. "Smart" is good - when 
>> I search for "5 cups" and it offers "five cups", that's a GOOD thing. But it 
>> does go too far sometimes. (Also try searching for a restaurant whose name 
>> is Italian in Virginia [VA] - "va" is a common Italian word, so you get tons 
>> of hits *from Italy, in Italian*. Adding "language:english" to the search 
>> helps there).
>> 
>> ...phsiii
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
> 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread John McKown

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:

> My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
> name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF key.
>  The routine would open a popup window with a list of possible
> matches.  You could select a option by tabbing to the line with the
> desired match and pressing enter, or alter the search argument and
> pressing enter to search again.  Would work very much like ISPF 3.4 or
> the mentioned directory listing.
>

In a "true" shell environment (not TSO OMVS), The BASH shell does this with
the TAB key (I guess in TSO OMVS, this would be a ctrl-i, using the TSO
OMVS "escape" character to emulate the ctrl key press). If you use the
standard /bin/sh in z/OS UNIX, and do a "set -o vi", then if there exists
at least one file name which matches the prefix you entered, a Ctrl-\ (^\)
will either: (1) extend the name with the remaining characters in the
unique name or; (2) extend the remaining shared characters in the set of
possibly matching names. In case #2, with BASH, hitting the TAB key a
second time will show all matching names, letting you type in some more
characters, then TAB again. Unfortunately, /bin/sh does _NOT_ help in this
situation. Which is why I often have _TWO_ shell prompts up in separate
windows. One with my command, and another to do an "ls" command to see
which file name I want. I then cut from the "ls" window and paste into the
other window which contains my command.

--

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Mike Schwab

My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF key.
 The routine would open a popup window with a list of possible
matches.  You could select a option by tabbing to the line with the
desired match and pressing enter, or alter the search argument and
pressing enter to search again.  Would work very much like ISPF 3.4 or
the mentioned directory listing.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Phil Smith  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tony Harminc 
> mailto:t...@harminc.net>> wrote:
>>I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
>>"dumbed down" the search interface to the point that it's almost
>>impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
>>inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
>>searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
>>the actual thing.
>
> Thank you, Tony: I thought it was just me! Drives me nuts. I wind up opening 
> a command prompt and using DIR (or grep, depending).
>
> Re Google: use "verbatim" search. Look under "Search tools", then "All 
> results" to find that. I discovered this when I was trying to factcheck a 
> story about an elderly man who got a sensitive part of his anatomy stuck in a 
> chair (I forget why this was interesting at the time, honest!). The word I 
> was searching for has three syllables and begins with "t", but Google kept 
> presenting results that had the word "balls" in them. "Smart" is good - when 
> I search for "5 cups" and it offers "five cups", that's a GOOD thing. But it 
> does go too far sometimes. (Also try searching for a restaurant whose name is 
> Italian in Virginia [VA] - "va" is a common Italian word, so you get tons of 
> hits *from Italy, in Italian*. Adding "language:english" to the search helps 
> there).
>
> ...phsiii
>
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Phil Smith

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tony Harminc 
mailto:t...@harminc.net>> wrote:
>I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
>"dumbed down" the search interface to the point that it's almost
>impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
>inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
>searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
>the actual thing.

Thank you, Tony: I thought it was just me! Drives me nuts. I wind up opening a 
command prompt and using DIR (or grep, depending).

Re Google: use "verbatim" search. Look under "Search tools", then "All results" 
to find that. I discovered this when I was trying to factcheck a story about an 
elderly man who got a sensitive part of his anatomy stuck in a chair (I forget 
why this was interesting at the time, honest!). The word I was searching for 
has three syllables and begins with "t", but Google kept presenting results 
that had the word "balls" in them. "Smart" is good - when I search for "5 cups" 
and it offers "five cups", that's a GOOD thing. But it does go too far 
sometimes. (Also try searching for a restaurant whose name is Italian in 
Virginia [VA] - "va" is a common Italian word, so you get tons of hits *from 
Italy, in Italian*. Adding "language:english" to the search helps there).

...phsiii

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Scott Ford

Tony,

Sloppy coding at google ?

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


> On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Tony Harminc  wrote:
> 
>> On 2 December 2013 14:02, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
> [...]
>>> Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
>>> unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
>>> search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
>>> locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
>>> had such a facility since at least XP.)
>> As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.
> 
> I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
> "dumbed down" the search interface to the point that it's almost
> impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
> inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
> searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
> the actual thing.
> 
> Tony H.
> 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Tony Harminc

On 2 December 2013 14:02, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
[...]
>>Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
>>unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
>>search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
>>locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
>>had such a facility since at least XP.)
>>
> As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.

I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
"dumbed down" the search interface to the point that it's almost
impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
the actual thing.

Tony H.

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Tony Harminc

On 3 December 2013 14:46, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
 wrote:
> In ,
> on 12/02/2013  at 06:19 PM, Tony Harminc  said:
>
>>I'm not sure in what sense it replies [sic] on it.
>
> Consider the STATUS command.

OK. STATUS with no operands doesn't call the TSO CANCEL/STATUS/OUTPUT
exit, but a JES exit can perform job selection for STATUS using any
criteria it likes. So if an installation uses a job prefix that isn't
the userid, things can still be automated.

But of course no one uses those old TSO FIB commands these days...

Tony H.

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In
,
on 12/02/2013
   at 06:19 PM, Tony Harminc  said:

>I'm not sure in what sense it replies on it.

Consider the STATUS command.
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In
,
on 12/02/2013
   at 02:48 PM, John Gilmore  said:

>Worth noting, and not at all to clear from, indeed antiothetical 
>to, the title of this thread is that we are now addressing a 
>deficiency of UNIX, not one of the MVS side of z/OS.

The issue exists in both, in slightly different form. In neither case
do I see a central repository doing anything for the user.
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In <529cd1c5.9030...@tulsagrammer.com>, on 12/02/2013
   at 12:30 PM, Eric Chevalier  said:

>I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix 
>catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path.

A central repository won't solve that problem.

>I know it's called "stroganoff.txt"

Unless it's your only recipe, you've got a problem.

>Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the 
>unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file.

Such facilities already exist, without the need for a central
repository. They aren't very helpful for background scripts.

What I see as more helpful would be Multics-style search rules
(STEPCAT on steroids), but that still leaves the issue of getting the
right one when there are duplicates.
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Miklos Szigetvari


On 03.12.2013 07:13, David Crayford wrote:

On 3/12/2013 4:16 AM, Kirk Wolf wrote:

  I would
guess that the tricky part would be replacing the interface to "inotify"
with w_ioctl / Iocc#regFileInt


I could be wrong but it looks like Iocc#regFileInt doesn't support 
monitoring directories, which diminishes it's value. A port of inotify 
for z/OS would be a very nice to have.



It is true as we have tried to use this to detect directoy changes.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread David Crayford


On 3/12/2013 4:16 AM, Kirk Wolf wrote:

  I would
guess that the tricky part would be replacing the interface to "inotify"
with w_ioctl / Iocc#regFileInt


I could be wrong but it looks like Iocc#regFileInt doesn't support 
monitoring directories, which diminishes it's value. A port of inotify 
for z/OS would be a very nice to have.


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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Scott Ford

Kirk,

Absolutely, that would be a great , interesting conversion to z/OS

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


> On Dec 2, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Kirk Wolf  wrote:
> 
> A list of "desktop search engines" (which actually have little to do with
> desktops) -
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines#Desktop_search_engines
> 
> Something like Recoil / Xapian could probably be ported to z/OS.  I would
> guess that the tricky part would be replacing the interface to "inotify"
> with w_ioctl / Iocc#regFileInt
> 
> Kirk Wolf
> Dovetailed Technologies
> http://dovetail.com
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
>>> 
>>> I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix
>>> catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path. ...
>>> 
>>> Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
>>> unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
>>> search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
>>> locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
>>> had such a facility since at least XP.)
>>> 
>> As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.
>> 
>> -- gil
>> 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Tony Harminc

On 2 December 2013 11:01, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
 wrote:
> In <20131201232728.GA25455@dlc-dt>, on 12/01/2013
>at 06:27 PM, "David L. Craig"  said:
>
>>If I remember correctly, the sole reason for limiting TSO IDs to a
>>maximum of seven characters was to ensure running batch jobnames
>>submitted by TSO users would never conflict with the TSO session or
>>each other.
>
> I don't know which came first in the design, but it is certainly true
> that FIB relies on an appended character

I'm not sure in what sense it replies on it. Nothing other than
perhaps a user exit or JESn/RACF settings stops a TSO SUBMIT user from
submitting a job with any jobname except the userid itself. And a user
exit can allow a user to use the other FIB commands on any jobname.

Tony H.

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Ed Gould


Gil,

Yes UADS was a PDS and there were some unusual items in UAD that were  
semi hidden.
One I remember stumbling into was CPU time that the user had  
accumulated since the creation of the ID.

Very sneaky (IIRC) .


Ed

On Dec 2, 2013, at 1:08 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:


On Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:15:04 -0600, Ed Gould wrote:


I remember distinctly that UID's were limited to 7 characters.
One of the reasons was that UADS had a directory of 8 characters and
the 8th character was reserved for UID's needing more space in UADS
so a character was reserved (shaky here but the 8th character was
either 0, 1 2 etc) to allow more space ...

UID was 7 characters.
The eighth was reserved for UADS as either 0 thru 8


I've heard further that while UADS is a very ordinary PDS, updates
are performed in place to reduce the need for compress.  As a
consequence, an existing member can't be extended except by
allocating an extension member.

-- gil

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread John Gilmore

David [Andrews]:

300K data sets all having six-level DSN values suggests that there is
a standard in place that enforces their use, and you have implicitly
said what it is.

What this suggests to me is that four levels are enough for your
purposes, leaving two available for DATE.TIME values (or,
alternatively, that you use schemes that generate many otherwise
identical DSNs that you then make unique using DATE.TIME values to do
so).

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread David Andrews

On Mon, 2013-12-02 at 15:11 -0500, John Gilmore wrote:
> These results strongly suggest---They of course stop well short of
> proving---that five index levels is enough.

I have a single catalog with 300,000+ datasets, all with six-level
DSNAMEs.  Maybe an edge case, but there you go.

(FWIW it catalogs application dataset backups in the format
"HLI.original.dataset.name.DATE.TIME".)

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Kirk Wolf

A list of "desktop search engines" (which actually have little to do with
desktops) -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines#Desktop_search_engines

Something like Recoil / Xapian could probably be ported to z/OS.  I would
guess that the tricky part would be replacing the interface to "inotify"
with w_ioctl / Iocc#regFileInt

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com


On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
> >
> >I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix
> >catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path. ...
> >
> >Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
> >unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
> >search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
> >locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
> >had such a facility since at least XP.)
> >
> As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.
>
> -- gil
>
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread John Gilmore

Using pooled data from three large shops I found for index-level usage
in 28K cataloged PDSs, PDSEs, and GDGs:

level, percent | histogram
1, 00 |
2, 41 |
3, 31 |xx
4, 24 |x
5, 05 |

These results strongly suggest---They of course stop well short of
proving---that five index levels is enough.  (Sum of percents is not
100 because of rounding.)

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Gerhard Postpischil


On 12/2/2013 10:54 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

It's hard to say, but certainly the CVOL data structure is similar to
a PDS directory.


Considering that they share code in common (e.g., directory 
initialization and catalog formatting), it's extremely likely.


I was wondering about the five levels - office, department, group, 
project, name?




Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, Vermont

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread John Gilmore

Worth noting, and not at all to clear from, indeed antiothetical to,
the title of this thread is that we are now addressing a deficiency of
UNIX, not one of the MVS side of z/OS.

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:15:04 -0600, Ed Gould wrote:
>
>I remember distinctly that UID's were limited to 7 characters.
>One of the reasons was that UADS had a directory of 8 characters and
>the 8th character was reserved for UID's needing more space in UADS
>so a character was reserved (shaky here but the 8th character was
>either 0, 1 2 etc) to allow more space ...
>
>UID was 7 characters.
>The eighth was reserved for UADS as either 0 thru 8
> 
I've heard further that while UADS is a very ordinary PDS, updates
are performed in place to reduce the need for compress.  As a
consequence, an existing member can't be extended except by
allocating an extension member.

-- gil

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
>
>I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix
>catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path. ...
>
>Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
>unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
>search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
>locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
>had such a facility since at least XP.)
> 
As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.

-- gil

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Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Eric Chevalier


On 12/1/13 7:51 AM, Dan Espen wrote:


Actually, your whole description is bizarre and I think wrong.

With a UNIX file, how do I NOT know where /var/log/messages is?

As long as you use a full path, you know where everything is.


I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix 
catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path. For example, 
suppose I have a recipe for Beef Stroganoff somewhere on my hard drive. 
I know it's called "stroganoff.txt" but I don't remember where I put it. 
I can certainly use the "find" command to locate the file, but my hard 
disk is large with several hundred thousand files. "find" may take a 
noticeable amount of time to locate the file.


Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the 
unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can 
search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the 
locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has 
had such a facility since at least XP.)


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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In <6aee915e-660b-471b-837c-b2ef76d0a...@comcast.net>, on 12/01/2013
   at 06:15 PM, Ed Gould  said:

>I remember distinctly that UID's were limited to 7 characters.

Yes, as was prefix. However, a FQDSN could have an 8-character HLQ.
 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In <20131201232728.GA25455@dlc-dt>, on 12/01/2013
   at 06:27 PM, "David L. Craig"  said:

>If I remember correctly, the sole reason for limiting TSO IDs to a
>maximum of seven characters was to ensure running batch jobnames
>submitted by TSO users would never conflict with the TSO session or
>each other.

I don't know which came first in the design, but it is certainly true
that FIB relies on an appended character and that various data
structures, e.g., UADS, UPT, are hardwired for 7. Neither sets a limit
on an HLQ that is not a userid and is not specified in PROFILE PREFIX.
 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In <1885724251.2483267.1385936064169.javamail.r...@comcast.net>, on
12/01/2013
   at 10:14 PM, DASDBILL2  said:

>I believe John Gilmore meant that the original S/360 architects
>thought that the system should support at least five levels in a 
>file name and that each level could be as long as eight bytes.

Whether or not that's what John meant, it's certainly a reasonable
reading of the architects' intent.

>I suspect that this value of eight came from the maximum length 
>of a PDS member name,

It's hard to say, but certainly the CVOL data structure is similar to
a PDS directory.

 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Ed Gould


Dave:

I remember distinctly that UID's were limited to 7 characters.
One of the reasons was that UADS had a directory of 8 characters and  
the 8th character was reserved for UID's needing more space in UADS  
so a character was reserved (shaky here but the 8th character was  
either 0, 1 2 etc) to allow more space for accounting and password  
size and one or two other needs) So in effect the USERID was max 7  
characters that allowed up to password and accounting info, region  
size and my memory is iffy, some other info). the account change  
command was difficult to work with as you might imagine I had several  
choice swear words a few times trying to change some field.

In summary
UID was 7 characters.
The eighth was reserved for UADS as either 0 thru 8

Ed


On Dec 1, 2013, at 5:27 PM, David L. Craig wrote:


On 13Dec01:1758-0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:


In <0905701904337885.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu>, on
11/30/2013
   at 08:52 AM, Paul Gilmartin  said:


Is the limit HLQ or TSO prefix?


TSO limits the prefix to 7; for an explicit FQDSN it accepts an
8-character HLQ.


Do catalog services enforce a limit of 7?


No, nor does TSO.


If I remember correctly, the sole reason for limiting TSO IDs
to a maximum of seven characters was to ensure running batch
jobnames submitted by TSO users would never conflict with the
TSO session or each other.
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread David L. Craig

On 13Dec01:1758-0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

> In <0905701904337885.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu>, on
> 11/30/2013
>at 08:52 AM, Paul Gilmartin  said:
> 
> >Is the limit HLQ or TSO prefix?
> 
> TSO limits the prefix to 7; for an explicit FQDSN it accepts an
> 8-character HLQ.
> 
> >Do catalog services enforce a limit of 7?
> 
> No, nor does TSO.

If I remember correctly, the sole reason for limiting TSO IDs
to a maximum of seven characters was to ensure running batch
jobnames submitted by TSO users would never conflict with the
TSO session or each other.
-- 

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 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
,
on 12/01/2013
   at 08:27 AM, Mike Schwab  said:

>TSO appends a prefix of your userid to your data set name unless you
>specify quotes.

Except when it doesn't. See PROFILE PREFIX.
 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In <3197351753588016.wa.zatlas1yahoo@listserv.ua.edu>, on
12/01/2013
   at 08:21 AM, "Ze'ev Atlas"  said:

>I do not want people to shoot the idea down just because I referred
>to only one example.

The problem is not that you have only one example, it is that you are
shooting from the hip instead of first trying to understand how things
currently work.
 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In <8649425507335336.wa.zatlas1yahoo@listserv.ua.edu>, on
12/01/2013
   at 12:20 AM, "Ze'ev Atlas"  said:

>I have identified the defect pretty well,

You waved your hands; you never identified a problem that a central
repository would solve.

>you refuse to see that definition

That would have been impossible; there was no there there. You, OTOH,
refuse to see the similarities between MVS catalogs and Unix
directories.

>go to circular arguments

Nonsense.

>about semantics!

You don't have the faintest idea what semantics are.

>I will explain rather than define: In z/OS you are confined to 44
>characters and limited to however many levels could be expressed
>within that limit, but you do not need to tell the system where 
>the file resides because that information is stored in the catalog.

Except when it isn't.

>In Unix, you do not have those length and level limitations, but 
>you need to be explicit in describing where the file is

That's nonsense.

>or go through the trouble of creating symbolic links.  

Symbolic links provide an alias; they don't say where something is.
Alias resolution is as much a factor for legacy MVS catalogs and data
sets as it is for Unix paths.

>Both sides are awkward, require too much memorization and each one
>has a glaring defect as identified above.

The defect that you "identified" is imaginary.

>PLEASE DO NOT GET INTO SEMANTICS

The difference between having a usable backup and not having one is
"only semantics".
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread John Gilmore

Helped perhaps by the fact that he knows what 'antetypical' means,
Bill Fairchild has made my case better than I had made it.  I did
indeed have [some of] these notions in mind.

The more recent development of this thread has pleased me.
Vociferous, historically tin-eared objections have been very largely
replaced by assertions of preference, e.g.,  for the usability of
minuscules in some classes of names where only majuscules may now
appear.

It would be all but impossible to object to these wish lists for the
relaxation of traditional formatting restrictions; and I do not; but
neither are they, finally, very important. (What I earlier today
called the psittacism involved--their too frequent, mindless
repetition in tones of moral outrage--is objectionable; but that is
another matter.)

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers