Re: Schelle lute
Left shoulder? Not more ergonomic for one's RIGHT shoulder also? PD Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Navighi a 4 MEGA e i primi 3 mesi sono GRATIS. Scegli Libero Adsl Flat senza limiti su http://www.libero.it
Re: Schelle lute
Don't make it too flat. You may wind up with a guitar (gasp!!!) Marion Mess with the mezzo, pay the high prezzo. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 21, 2005 12:20 AM To: vze25h9z [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: braig.1 [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Schelle lute Left shoulder? Not more ergonomic for one's RIGHT shoulder also? PD Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Navighi a 4 MEGA e i primi 3 mesi sono GRATIS. Scegli Libero Adsl Flat senza limiti su http://www.libero.it
Re: Schelle lute
A peace off his ear: If Roman does ask you to hear don't ever just lend him your right ear 'cause unlike Vang Gogh, where one was enough, he'll probably, too, take your left ear. At 20:11 20-04-2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: My only problems is that I musically abhor JW, in which I am far from alone, and I like (in an old Flemish tradition...) to have fun at the expense of stupid people. Thames obviously thinks that mindless ad hominems are funny, so he is fair game My only problems is that I musically abhor JW, in which I am far from alone, and I like (in an old Flemish tradition...) to have fun at the expense of stupid people. Thames obviously thinks that mindless ad hominems are funny, so he is fair game If only the hunter was as skillfull as the prey! My only game is a strong dislike of being preached to about musical taste, by a self inflated dilettante, who's only mode of expression, are one liner insults. BTW, I'm not as preoccupied with lute sales as you are. Get over it ! I've got bigger fish to fry! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joseph Mayes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute If you guys have nothing to say that a. doesn't include personal attacks and b. relates to lutes; Why don't you take it off-list? I lie a flame war as much as the next fellow (ie. Not at all) but this grows tiresome. Moi I'm just collecting some dialogue to be used in a novel, while practicing my English. I have no idea what Thames' game is, aside from blowing his lutemaker's reputation on trying to outdo MO in useless resilience. He squarely accomplished both. My only problems is that I musically abhor JW, in which I am far from alone, and I like (in an old Flemish tradition...) to have fun at the expense of stupid people. Thames obviously thinks that mindless ad hominems are funny, so he is fair game. I mostly lurk on the list, unless some one spouts some anti-guitar trash More will be forthcoming if JW is ever mentioned, for sure. and thereby rattles my cage, and have found interest and sound information in both of your posts in the past. It is, however, getting to the place where I delete when I see your names. PEACE BROTHERS!! Same to you! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
Dear Eugene and all, I have been doing some research and came across this website that may need policing. I think it may be releveant to the topic at hand. How much is too much? here is a guitar maker that effectively took a nice lute and applied guitar priciples to it. i am more of a baroque person i.e. not sure of archlutes as much. The bracing he used is incorrect, I believe. He thought that the relief scoop, in the soundboard to rib relationship, was a distortion of some sort. And, not only that he claims that he received information from the lute society! the more informed of you might police this guy, for i don't think he should claim he did research and mislead others. Chad - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 04:43 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them. ...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 04:43 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them. ...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute,
sorry all, I suppose, I should now provide the link. http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Scrapbook/Archlute/archlseq1.htm - Original Message - From: Chadwick Neal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute Dear Eugene and all, I have been doing some research and came across this website that may need policing. I think it may be releveant to the topic at hand. How much is too much? here is a guitar maker that effectively took a nice lute and applied guitar priciples to it. i am more of a baroque person i.e. not sure of archlutes as much. The bracing he used is incorrect, I believe. He thought that the relief scoop, in the soundboard to rib relationship, was a distortion of some sort. And, not only that he claims that he received information from the lute society! the more informed of you might police this guy, for i don't think he should claim he did research and mislead others. Chad - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 04:43 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them. ...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 04:43 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them. ...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
Possibly, but my own experience was with the left. RT Left shoulder? Not more ergonomic for one's RIGHT shoulder also? PD Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Navighi a 4 MEGA e i primi 3 mesi sono GRATIS. Scegli Libero Adsl Flat senza limiti su http://www.libero.it
Re: Schelle lute
At the start of my Ren lute training (uncorrect position of course!), I suffered a lot with my right shoulder! PD Possibly, but my own experience was with the left. RT Left shoulder? Not more ergonomic for one's RIGHT shoulder also? PD Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Navighi a 4 MEGA e i primi 3 mesi sono GRATIS. Scegli Libero Adsl Flat senza limiti su http://www.libero.it Navighi a 4 MEGA e i primi 3 mesi sono GRATIS. Scegli Libero Adsl Flat senza limiti su http://www.libero.it
Re: Schelle lute,
Dear Neal, I looked at the web site, showing the repair to the lute. In the first place, the original lute was built by Manouk Papazian. He died a few years, ago, and he was noted for making fantastic classical guitars. I used to own one many (i.e. 30) years ago, that was formerly owned by Sharon Isbin, and I can attest, it was (I hope still is) a magnificent guitar. I sold it after starting playing the lute. I do not know from direct examination, but rumor has it that Papazian's lutes were very substandard instruments, that is they were heavily designed and constructed, and did not have a pleasant or projective sound. So the repair person, Harry, on this web page continued in that guitar- like tradition. No, it is not very lute-like in his work. ed At 07:06 AM 4/21/2005 -0400, Chadwick Neal wrote: sorry all, I suppose, I should now provide the link. http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Scrapbook/Archlute/archlseq1.htm - Original Message - From: Chadwick Neal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute Dear Eugene and all, I have been doing some research and came across this website that may need policing. I think it may be releveant to the topic at hand. How much is too much? here is a guitar maker that effectively took a nice lute and applied guitar priciples to it. i am more of a baroque person i.e. not sure of archlutes as much. The bracing he used is incorrect, I believe. He thought that the relief scoop, in the soundboard to rib relationship, was a distortion of some sort. And, not only that he claims that he received information from the lute society! the more informed of you might police this guy, for i don't think he should claim he did research and mislead others. Chad - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 04:43 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them. ...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 04:43 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them. ...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene To get on or off this list
Re: Archlute repair [was Schelle lute]
Hmmm...Cumpiano http://www.cumpiano.com/, in whose shop this work was executed, is a rather famous luthier, having generated a staple text on the guitar maker's shelf (coauthored with Natelson), Guitarmaking (I have a copy you'd be welcome to peruse, Chad). It's a decent book, but they advocate a number of methods more traditional luthiers might consider dubious (and state their opinions on such matters as fact): a pinned mortise-and-tenon neck joint, modern wood glues all 'round, etc. I don't know that any amount of protest will get this shop to change its mind regarding its own correctness...and I doubt such a renowned luthier would publicly acknowledge he was simply wrong regarding table relief. Perhaps if a well-established luthier on this list wrote, but I'm no no luthier and I'm not certain it would do the world much good. Best, Eugene For reference: http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Scrapbook/Archlute/archlseq1.htm At 07:02 AM 4/21/2005, Chadwick Neal wrote: Dear Eugene and all, I have been doing some research and came across this website that may need policing. I think it may be releveant to the topic at hand. How much is too much? here is a guitar maker that effectively took a nice lute and applied guitar priciples to it. i am more of a baroque person i.e. not sure of archlutes as much. The bracing he used is incorrect, I believe. He thought that the relief scoop, in the soundboard to rib relationship, was a distortion of some sort. And, not only that he claims that he received information from the lute society! the more informed of you might police this guy, for i don't think he should claim he did research and mislead others. Chad To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Archlute repair [was Schelle lute]
Campiano, Is famous for writing a book, not for his guitars! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chadwick Neal [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Archlute repair [was Schelle lute] Hmmm...Cumpiano http://www.cumpiano.com/, in whose shop this work was executed, is a rather famous luthier, having generated a staple text on the guitar maker's shelf (coauthored with Natelson), Guitarmaking (I have a copy you'd be welcome to peruse, Chad). It's a decent book, but they advocate a number of methods more traditional luthiers might consider dubious (and state their opinions on such matters as fact): a pinned mortise-and-tenon neck joint, modern wood glues all 'round, etc. I don't know that any amount of protest will get this shop to change its mind regarding its own correctness...and I doubt such a renowned luthier would publicly acknowledge he was simply wrong regarding table relief. Perhaps if a well-established luthier on this list wrote, but I'm no no luthier and I'm not certain it would do the world much good. Best, Eugene For reference: http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Scrapbook/Archlute/archlseq1.htm At 07:02 AM 4/21/2005, Chadwick Neal wrote: Dear Eugene and all, I have been doing some research and came across this website that may need policing. I think it may be releveant to the topic at hand. How much is too much? here is a guitar maker that effectively took a nice lute and applied guitar priciples to it. i am more of a baroque person i.e. not sure of archlutes as much. The bracing he used is incorrect, I believe. He thought that the relief scoop, in the soundboard to rib relationship, was a distortion of some sort. And, not only that he claims that he received information from the lute society! the more informed of you might police this guy, for i don't think he should claim he did research and mislead others. Chad To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT BTW, Roman are you asserting that Barto's Frei that He played last summer at the GFA, has a Schelle pegbox? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:50 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Antwort: Schelle lute
didn't Bob play a Jauch? Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 19.04.2005 17:04:12 An:Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Schelle lute Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: Antwort: Schelle lute
didn't Bob play a Jauch? Thomas The Jauch has been retired 2-3 years ago, mainly for the expediency of low fretting, essential in current projects. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 19.04.2005 17:04:12 An:Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Schelle lute Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: Schelle lute
Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:27 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 6:58 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:29 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Yes Roman, I do know that, the pegbox extends past the fingerboard on the bass side. I have photos of the Yale Schelle on my website as well. I was asking about the shape of Barto's lute, not the pegbox, as I don't really like the ascetics of Schelle's pegbox design, I wouldn't use it anyway. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:50 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Yes Roman, I do know that, the pegbox extends past the fingerboard on the bass side. I have photos of the Yale Schelle on my website as well. I was asking about the shape of Barto's lute, not the pegbox, as I don't really like the ascetics of Schelle's pegbox design, I wouldn't use it anyway. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. If your eye can't pick out the subtle differences in body shapes, just within Schelle's lutes alone, not to mention, Frei Teilke etc, then I would check in to a continuing adult educational basic drawing course at your local high school. Or try drawing from the right side of your brain. BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy? What a ridiculous statement. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Yes Roman, I do know that, the pegbox extends past the fingerboard on the bass side. I have photos of the Yale Schelle on my website as well. I was asking about the shape of Barto's lute, not the pegbox, as I don't really like the ascetics of Schelle's pegbox design, I wouldn't use it anyway. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
At 10:29 AM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. This topic is somewhat interesting to me. At what point does an original design cease to be a reproduction of an early instrument and become something new? When will big, flat-backed lutes built for renaissance tuning and incorporating Kasha/Schneider bracing systems and bridge designs sweep the lute world? Why not use geared tuners? Etc? Here's an example: http://www.daniellarson.com/mandolins/mandolino/mandolino.htm. Dan's instruments sound as nice as any I've encountered. He credits Lambert as the prototype of this design, but anybody familiar with either of the extant Lamberts (that in the VA, after which this one is allegedly patterned, or that in Paris's Cite de la Musique) know that the proportions, materials, decor, etc. of these things in no way resemble the original. Should this be called a reproduction of a Lambert, one of own design, or even a period instrument at all? Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. If your eye can't pick out the subtle differences in body shapes, just within Schelle's lutes alone, not to mention, Frei Teilke etc, then I would check in to a continuing adult educational basic drawing course at your local high school. Or try drawing from the right side of your brain. I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch to get at least some idea what a picture looks like. BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy?. No it is not. It has an Edlinger shell, my preference. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Yes Roman, I do know that, the pegbox extends past the fingerboard on the bass side. I have photos of the Yale Schelle on my website as well. I was asking about the shape of Barto's lute, not the pegbox, as I don't really like the ascetics of Schelle's pegbox design, I wouldn't use it anyway. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
RE: Schelle lute
In the photo, from the Paris museum, the 13-course lute is a Schelle. The 11-course is attributed to Johannes Seelos. Ken Brodkey -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:51 AM To: Michael Thames; Lute net; Edward Martin Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
At 10:29 AM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. This topic is somewhat interesting to me. At what point does an original design cease to be a reproduction of an early instrument and become something new? It doesn't have to be something new. Putting a Jauch pegbox on a Hoffmann shell is insufficiently radical to qualify as new, even if it is a definite improvement. When will big, flat-backed lutes built for renaissance tuning and incorporating Kasha/Schneider bracing systems and bridge designs sweep the lute world? Why not use geared tuners? Etc? Has been exhaustively discussed. Let's not whip this beached salmon back to life. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
This topic is somewhat interesting to me. At what point does an original design cease to be a reproduction of an early instrument and become something new? When will big, flat-backed lutes built for renaissance tuning and incorporating Kasha/Schneider bracing systems and bridge designs sweep the lute world? Why not use geared tuners? Etc? Richard Schneider brought one of his guitars by my house for me to take a look at years ago, and tried to convert me to the Kasha doctrine, with no luck I might add. The masters of the past had figured everything out centuries ago. I believe if someone makes an original lute one should call it original, nothing wrong with making original instruments, if one has already spent years studying historical ones. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:24 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 10:29 AM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. This topic is somewhat interesting to me. At what point does an original design cease to be a reproduction of an early instrument and become something new? When will big, flat-backed lutes built for renaissance tuning and incorporating Kasha/Schneider bracing systems and bridge designs sweep the lute world? Why not use geared tuners? Etc? Here's an example: http://www.daniellarson.com/mandolins/mandolino/mandolino.htm. Dan's instruments sound as nice as any I've encountered. He credits Lambert as the prototype of this design, but anybody familiar with either of the extant Lamberts (that in the VA, after which this one is allegedly patterned, or that in Paris's Cite de la Musique) know that the proportions, materials, decor, etc. of these things in no way resemble the original. Should this be called a reproduction of a Lambert, one of own design, or even a period instrument at all? Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
In the photo, from the Paris museum, the 13-course lute is a Schelle. The 11-course is attributed to Johannes Seelos. Ken Brodkey It has the same protruding Schelle pegbox. The attributor must have been Thames, figuring by his virtuoso spelling. RT Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
At 11:05 AM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: When will big, flat-backed lutes built for renaissance tuning and incorporating Kasha/Schneider bracing systems and bridge designs sweep the lute world? Why not use geared tuners? Etc? Has been exhaustively discussed. Let's not whip this beached salmon back to life. I know it has, and I am not remotely interested in a Kasha lute with geared tuners, but how is changing the profile or air volume of a soundbox without precedent, even if slight, different than any of the more radical absurdities I've listed? I guess I'm asking how much departure is too much. (If the minutiae have been hammered out in the past, forgive me; I tend to delete things unread after a topic has descended into squabbling.) ...And it really isn't that pressing to me; play what you like and call it what it is. I'd call the Larson instruments to which I'd linked mandolino in a general sense and I'd enjoy playing them, but I would not claim them to be a reproduction of anything at all. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. Maybe it would help you to copy something, it can lay the ground work for abstract crap. I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch to get at least some idea what a picture looks like Santa Fe is full of pop artist's who paint cowboy and Indian's for the most part, you might fit right in. The exception is Georgia O'Keeffe. Whom BTW I had the honor to play lute for one evening long ago. BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy?. No it is not. It has an Edlinger shell, my preference. RT Wow! I guess putting a Brunner triple head on a Edlinger shell is not copying? Then I guess I qualify as a luthieretic genius as well, by putting a Brunner extension on my Widhalm. Does that qualify me for your special realm of true artist's? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 9:00 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. If your eye can't pick out the subtle differences in body shapes, just within Schelle's lutes alone, not to mention, Frei Teilke etc, then I would check in to a continuing adult educational basic drawing course at your local high school. Or try drawing from the right side of your brain. I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch to get at least some idea what a picture looks like. BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy?. No it is not. It has an Edlinger shell, my preference. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Yes Roman, I do know that, the pegbox extends past the fingerboard on the bass side. I have photos of the Yale Schelle on my website as well. I was asking about the shape of Barto's lute, not the pegbox, as I don't really like the ascetics of Schelle's pegbox design, I wouldn't use it anyway. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael
Re: Schelle lute
This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. Maybe it would help you to copy something, it can lay the ground work for abstract crap. It would help you to find out that I don't do abstraction (and my student practice included a fair amount of copying). I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch to get at least some idea what a picture looks like Santa Fe is full of pop artist's who paint cowboy and Indian's for the most part, you might fit right in. I suppose your cognitive skill are insufficient to tell Western from Abstract. H.. The exception is Georgia O'Keeffe. Whom BTW I had the honor to play lute for one evening long ago. How much did she tip you? BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy?. No it is not. It has an Edlinger shell, my preference. RT Wow! I guess putting a Brunner triple head on a Edlinger shell is not copying? Then I guess I qualify as a luthieretic genius as well, by putting a Brunner extension on my Widhalm. Does that qualify me for your special realm of true artist's? 'Fraid not. Only one luthier does, and I wouldn't let his name be tainted by being in the same e-mail message with yours. In general lutes reflect their makers' personalities. Imagine, a boor with no sense of beauty, and a sloppy speller in a lute, a recipe for disaster... RT The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. If your eye can't pick out the subtle differences in body shapes, just within Schelle's lutes alone, not to mention, Frei Teilke etc, then I would check in to a continuing adult educational basic drawing course at your local high school. Or try drawing from the right side of your brain. I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch to get at least some idea what a picture looks like. BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy?. No it is not. It has an Edlinger shell, my preference. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Yes Roman, I do know that, the pegbox extends past the fingerboard on the bass side. I have photos of the Yale Schelle on my website as well. I was asking about the shape of Barto's lute, not the pegbox, as I don't really like the ascetics of Schelle's pegbox design, I wouldn't use it anyway. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey
Re: Schelle lute
When will big, flat-backed lutes built for renaissance tuning and incorporating Kasha/Schneider bracing systems and bridge designs sweep the lute world? Why not use geared tuners? Etc? Has been exhaustively discussed. Let's not whip this beached salmon back to life. I know it has, and I am not remotely interested in a Kasha lute with geared tuners, but how is changing the profile or air volume of a soundbox without precedent, even if slight, different than any of the more radical absurdities I've listed? Sound box is not an absurdity. My preference is wider and flatter shell of Tiefennbrucker-Edlinger type which differs quite significantly in acoustics from the slender types, although this can be worded in the manner that smacks of a wine label. Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
When will big, flat-backed lutes built for renaissance tuning and incorporating Kasha/Schneider bracing systems and bridge designs sweep the lute world? Why not use geared tuners? Etc? Has been exhaustively discussed. Let's not whip this beached salmon back to life. I know it has, and I am not remotely interested in a Kasha lute with geared tuners, but how is changing the profile or air volume of a soundbox without precedent, even if slight, different than any of the more radical absurdities I've listed? Sound box is not an absurdity. My preference is for wider and flatter shell of Tiefennbrucker-Edlinger type which differs quite significantly in acoustics from the slender types, although this can only be worded in the manner that smacks of a wine label. Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
At 12:00 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I know it has, and I am not remotely interested in a Kasha lute with geared tuners, but how is changing the profile or air volume of a soundbox without precedent, even if slight, different than any of the more radical absurdities I've listed? Sound box is not an absurdity. Of course not. What I was labeling absurdity was the possibility of a large, completely flat-backed, Kasha-inspired lute with geared tuners. The question remains, how much departure from precedent is too much? Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
At 12:00 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I know it has, and I am not remotely interested in a Kasha lute with geared tuners, but how is changing the profile or air volume of a soundbox without precedent, even if slight, different than any of the more radical absurdities I've listed? Sound box is not an absurdity. Of course not. What I was labeling absurdity was the possibility of a large, completely flat-backed, Kasha-inspired lute with geared tuners. The question remains, how much departure from precedent is too much? Eugene Liuto Forte is definitely too much. MixingMatching several Baroque styles is acceptable, because it was a sufficiently common practice. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
At 12:12 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Liuto Forte is definitely too much. MixingMatching several Baroque styles is acceptable, because it was a sufficiently common practice. Mixing and matching is related, but slightly different to my inquiry. How about only a slight but definite increase in soundbox size or profile to arrive at a different resonant frequency or ergonomic functionality without precedent in any extant period instrument? Again, I am as happy to play vihuela music on modern guitar as I am vihuela, so I'm not too personally invested, just curious regarding the lute world's consensus. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
Slightly off the topic, but is the darkening you see on the soundboards of those two lutes (and on the Gerle lute) just patination from age, or is there a varnish or some other tinting of the wood? Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Schelle lute Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:50:54 -0400 Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
At 12:12 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Liuto Forte is definitely too much. MixingMatching several Baroque styles is acceptable, because it was a sufficiently common practice. Mixing and matching is related, but slightly different to my inquiry. How about only a slight but definite increase in soundbox size or profile to arrive at a different resonant frequency or ergonomic functionality without precedent in any extant period instrument? As to resonant frequency: you better ask on the luthiers' list. As to ergonomics: a slight variation won't matter much. But if you'd compared a Hoffmann against an Edlinger you wouldn't be asking this question. Again, I am as happy to play vihuela music on modern guitar as I am vihuela, so I'm not too personally invested, just curious regarding the lute world's consensus. Eugene As an embodiment of consensus I could tell you that there is nothing wrong with playing vihuela music on a guitar, celesta, wurlitzer or any other instrument. However the same consensus would tell you that this has only about 10% of the pleasurability of vihuela music being played on a vihuela (when played as it should be, as in Ariel Abramovich). RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
'Fraid not. Only one luthier does, and I wouldn't let his name be tainted by being in the same e-mail message with yours. In general lutes reflect their makers' personalities. Imagine, a boor with no sense of beauty, and a sloppy speller in a lute, a recipe for disaster... RT I have a great sense of beauty, I'm the one who can see the difference in lute bodies, and I don't say they all look the same. I recall seeing one of your paintings, it was a tortured, dark thing, no hint a beauty if I recall, reflecting the maker. Here in Northern NM, everyone is just like you a pseudo artist. I'll make a deal with you... You make a painting, I'll make a guitar, and we'll see how fast, and how much both sell for. Don't quit your daytime job! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. Maybe it would help you to copy something, it can lay the ground work for abstract crap. It would help you to find out that I don't do abstraction (and my student practice included a fair amount of copying). I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch to get at least some idea what a picture looks like Santa Fe is full of pop artist's who paint cowboy and Indian's for the most part, you might fit right in. I suppose your cognitive skill are insufficient to tell Western from Abstract. H.. The exception is Georgia O'Keeffe. Whom BTW I had the honor to play lute for one evening long ago. How much did she tip you? BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy?. No it is not. It has an Edlinger shell, my preference. RT Wow! I guess putting a Brunner triple head on a Edlinger shell is not copying? Then I guess I qualify as a luthieretic genius as well, by putting a Brunner extension on my Widhalm. Does that qualify me for your special realm of true artist's? 'Fraid not. Only one luthier does, and I wouldn't let his name be tainted by being in the same e-mail message with yours. In general lutes reflect their makers' personalities. Imagine, a boor with no sense of beauty, and a sloppy speller in a lute, a recipe for disaster... RT The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. If your eye can't pick out the subtle differences in body shapes, just within Schelle's lutes alone, not to mention, Frei Teilke etc, then I would check in to a continuing adult educational basic drawing course at your local high school. Or try drawing from the right side of your brain. I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch to get at least some idea what a picture looks like. BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy?. No it is not. It has an Edlinger shell, my preference. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Yes Roman, I do know that, the pegbox extends past the fingerboard on the bass side. I have photos of the Yale Schelle on my website as well. I was asking about the shape of Barto's lute, not the pegbox, as I don't really like the ascetics of Schelle's pegbox design, I wouldn't use it anyway. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last
Re: Schelle lute
Sound box is not an absurdity. My preference is for wider and flatter shell of Tiefennbrucker-Edlinger type which differs quite significantly in acoustics from the slender types, although this can only be worded in the manner that smacks of a wine label. Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT They also have a more fundamental sound, closer to the flat sound of a guitar. The slender lutes if not too deep, have a more complex sound. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:05 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute When will big, flat-backed lutes built for renaissance tuning and incorporating Kasha/Schneider bracing systems and bridge designs sweep the lute world? Why not use geared tuners? Etc? Has been exhaustively discussed. Let's not whip this beached salmon back to life. I know it has, and I am not remotely interested in a Kasha lute with geared tuners, but how is changing the profile or air volume of a soundbox without precedent, even if slight, different than any of the more radical absurdities I've listed? Sound box is not an absurdity. My preference is for wider and flatter shell of Tiefennbrucker-Edlinger type which differs quite significantly in acoustics from the slender types, although this can only be worded in the manner that smacks of a wine label. Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
At 12:29 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: As to ergonomics: a slight variation won't matter much. But if you'd compared a Hoffmann against an Edlinger you wouldn't be asking this question. Once again, I'm not talking about any modification with precedent in baroque-era pieces. I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Again, I am as happy to play vihuela music on modern guitar as I am vihuela, so I'm not too personally invested, just curious regarding the lute world's consensus. As an embodiment of consensus... Well, I'm still hoping somebody else or few will weigh in. ...I could tell you that there is nothing wrong with playing vihuela music on a guitar, celesta, wurlitzer or any other instrument. However the same consensus would tell you that this has only about 10% of the pleasurability of vihuela music being played on a vihuela (when played as it should be, as in Ariel Abramovich). I play vihuela music on a speculative vihuela too, although, unlike Ms. Abramovich, without professional ability/aspiration. As I imagine Ms. Abramovich feels, I really enjoy doing so. ...But that's a side topic and was only given as an example of my not being offended by a _little_ flexibility in reproduction luthiery. When I indulge in vihuela music (or even 5-course guitar music) on modern guitar, I approach it as transcription and enjoy it as such. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
FYI, in Art (if you knew what it is) darkness is often a thing of beauty. Not if the whole thing is dark, I suppose you always wear black. The light in Taos is the same as the south of France, say the local artists. FYI, in order to be eligible to apply for my daytime job I had to execute a 4'x6' copy of a Fragonard painting in 8 hours. Out of 70 contestants 3 were accepted. As to a contest with you: only when you can come up with something original, not a standardized piece of wood. RT Most of my artist friends agree, that some technique is required, slopping a painting together in 8 hours doesn't qualify as art, at least out here in these parts. Have you tried painting houses? There might be more money in it for you. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Schelle lute 'Fraid not. Only one luthier does, and I wouldn't let his name be tainted by being in the same e-mail message with yours. In general lutes reflect their makers' personalities. Imagine, a boor with no sense of beauty, and a sloppy speller in a lute, a recipe for disaster... RT I have a great sense of beauty, I'm the one who can see the difference in lute bodies, and I don't say they all look the same. I recall seeing one of your paintings, it was a tortured, dark thing, no hint a beauty if I recall, reflecting the maker. FYI, in Art (if you knew what it is) darkness is often a thing of beauty. Here in Northern NM, everyone is just like you a pseudo artist. FYI, I don't live in Northern NM, so I cannot relate to you predicament. I'll make a deal with you... You make a painting, I'll make a guitar, and we'll see how fast, and how much both sell for. Don't quit your daytime job! FYI, in order to be eligible to apply for my daytime job I had to execute a 4'x6' copy of a Fragonard painting in 8 hours. Out of 70 contestants 3 were accepted. As to a contest with you: only when you can come up with something original, not a standardized piece of wood. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. Maybe it would help you to copy something, it can lay the ground work for abstract crap. It would help you to find out that I don't do abstraction (and my student practice included a fair amount of copying). I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch to get at least some idea what a picture looks like Santa Fe is full of pop artist's who paint cowboy and Indian's for the most part, you might fit right in. I suppose your cognitive skill are insufficient to tell Western from Abstract. H.. The exception is Georgia O'Keeffe. Whom BTW I had the honor to play lute for one evening long ago. How much did she tip you? BTW, is your Brunner a slavish copy?. No it is not. It has an Edlinger shell, my preference. RT Wow! I guess putting a Brunner triple head on a Edlinger shell is not copying? Then I guess I qualify as a luthieretic genius as well, by putting a Brunner extension on my Widhalm. Does that qualify me for your special realm of true artist's? 'Fraid not. Only one luthier does, and I wouldn't let his name be tainted by being in the same e-mail message with yours. In general lutes reflect their makers' personalities. Imagine, a boor with no sense of beauty, and a sloppy speller in a lute, a recipe for disaster... RT The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT This may be true of your art work, but certainly is not the case for lute makers. Real luthiers are intelligent enough to see where the originals were imperfect, both acoustically and aesthetically (note the spelling for future reference). Ditto real artists, hence no copying for me. If your eye can't pick out the subtle differences in body shapes, just within Schelle's lutes alone, not to mention, Frei Teilke etc, then I would check in to a continuing adult educational basic drawing course at your local high school. Or try drawing from the right side of your brain. I use whole brain for that. In you microcephalic case it would help to drive to Santa-Fe to see some local kitsch
Re: Schelle lute
Dear Eugene, Please place tongue firmly in cheek and see my comments below. Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Apr 20, 2005 10:47 AM To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 12:29 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: As to ergonomics: a slight variation won't matter much. But if you'd compared a Hoffmann against an Edlinger you wouldn't be asking this question. Once again, I'm not talking about any modification with precedent in baroque-era pieces. I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. ++No need to be sorry, Eugene - you selected a good example. Mandolini are the smallest (and most portable) members of the lute family. Again, I am as happy to play vihuela music on modern guitar as I am vihuela, so I'm not too personally invested, just curious regarding the lute world's consensus. As an embodiment of consensus... Well, I'm still hoping somebody else or few will weigh in. ++Consider the scales tipped in your favor.:) ...I could tell you that there is nothing wrong with playing vihuela music on a guitar, celesta, wurlitzer or any other instrument. However the same consensus would tell you that this has only about 10% of the pleasurability of vihuela music being played on a vihuela (when played as it should be, as in Ariel Abramovich). I play vihuela music on a speculative vihuela too, although, unlike Ms. Abramovich, without professional ability/aspiration. As I imagine Ms. Abramovich feels, I really enjoy doing so. ...But that's a side topic and was only given as an example of my not being offended by a _little_ flexibility in reproduction luthiery. When I indulge in vihuela music (or even 5-course guitar music) on modern guitar, I approach it as transcription and enjoy it as such. Eugene ++Be careful of what you enjoy around here. Only certain kinds of music are permitted to be enjoyed. We practice LUTHanasia on anyone caught enjoying the wrong kind of music. ;) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
Roman, I do know that, the pegbox extends past the fingerboard on the bass side. I have photos of the Yale Schelle on my website as well. I was asking about the shape of Barto's lute, not the pegbox, as I don't really like the ascetics of Schelle's pegbox design, I wouldn't use it anyway. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com The differences between slender lutes's shells like Schelle, Tielke, Frei are so visually insignificant, that luthiers do as they please with their nomenclatures. And the best ones' designs are original rather than slavish copies. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's using. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT Tell me something I don't know. As the original Schelle doesn't have a bass rider the I think that goes unsaid. Michael Thames The page at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/adue.html has a photo of 2 Schelle lutes, 11 and 13c. Both have an unusual feature known by the Schelle's name, but you knew that, of course. RT Subject: Re: Schelle lute Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT What, with the Frei shape, and Schelle, ribs? Michael Thames Lutes have other parts, such as pegboxes,etc. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Ken Brodkey, just emailed and told me Andy Rutherford, told him, even though on the program last year at the LSA, said it was a Schelle, it was the Warwick Frei, that barto's useing. Michael Thames The simple reason for the confusion is that it is based on BOTH. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
Doc Marion wrote: Please place tongue firmly in cheek and see my comments below. Ditto, Doc. ++Be careful of what you enjoy around here. Only certain kinds of music are permitted to be enjoyed. We practice LUTHanasia on anyone caught enjoying the wrong kind of music. ;) So does that mean that lutenists should fly using only LUTHansa airlines? Not a bad choice, and certainly better than sailing the Atlantic aboard the LUTHitania. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
Hi Eugene, I won't weigh in particularly but I'll share a few thoughts. As you know, I own one of Dan's mandolinos and I think it is a fine instrument for what it is. While it may not closely parallel an actual instrument, it is lightly and skillfully built using appropriate principals. I would not personally put it in the same category as the modern barockmandoline. I think Dan is fairly clear in this case in that he states that the instrument is based on (note a close copy of) the Lambert instrument. Dan is also quite clear on his Website in saying that he tries to capture an asthetic rather than slavishly copy a particular original. Its up to the individual buyer as to whether that represents something desirable or not. For what its worth, as you know Dan has also made some rather direct copies of the Cutler-Challen Strad mandolino (as it now exists)... very successfully, IMHO. I'm sure I commit many anachronisms daily of which I am not aware... Also, *Mr.* Abramovich might differ with your manner of addressing him. I believe you and I are now even on that score old friend! :-) Eric Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 12:29 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: As to ergonomics: a slight variation won't matter much. But if you'd compared a Hoffmann against an Edlinger you wouldn't be asking this question. Once again, I'm not talking about any modification with precedent in baroque-era pieces. I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Again, I am as happy to play vihuela music on modern guitar as I am vihuela, so I'm not too personally invested, just curious regarding the lute world's consensus. As an embodiment of consensus... Well, I'm still hoping somebody else or few will weigh in. ...I could tell you that there is nothing wrong with playing vihuela music on a guitar, celesta, wurlitzer or any other instrument. However the same consensus would tell you that this has only about 10% of the pleasurability of vihuela music being played on a vihuela (when played as it should be, as in Ariel Abramovich). I play vihuela music on a speculative vihuela too, although, unlike Ms. Abramovich, without professional ability/aspiration. As I imagine Ms. Abramovich feels, I really enjoy doing so. ...But that's a side topic and was only given as an example of my not being offended by a _little_ flexibility in reproduction luthiery. When I indulge in vihuela music (or even 5-course guitar music) on modern guitar, I approach it as transcription and enjoy it as such. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
All this talk of the Schelle lute brings to mind the young woman in Brighton Beach who made lutes and who had the following printed up in the local trade papers to advertise her wares. She sells C Schelles by the seashore. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
At 02:27 PM 4/20/2005, Eric Liefeld wrote: For what its worth, as you know Dan has also made some rather direct copies of the Cutler-Challen Strad mandolino (as it now exists)... very successfully, IMHO. Yes, the one with which I tweedled was very nice: remarkably loud and bass-rich. Also, *Mr.* Abramovich might differ with your manner of addressing him. I believe you and I are now even on that score old friend! :-) Oops! My apologies to Ariel! Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
Also, *Mr.* Abramovich might differ with your manner of addressing him. I believe you and I are now even on that score old friend! :-) Oops! My apologies to Ariel! Eugene No problemo! Ariel. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
If you guys have nothing to say that a. doesn't include personal attacks and b. relates to lutes; Why don't you take it off-list? I lie a flame war as much as the next fellow (ie. Not at all) but this grows tiresome. Moi I'm just collecting some dialogue to be used in a novel, while practicing my English. I have no idea what Thames' game is, aside from blowing his lutemaker's reputation on trying to outdo MO in useless resilience. He squarely accomplished both. My only problems is that I musically abhor JW, in which I am far from alone, and I like (in an old Flemish tradition...) to have fun at the expense of stupid people. Thames obviously thinks that mindless ad hominems are funny, so he is fair game. I mostly lurk on the list, unless some one spouts some anti-guitar trash More will be forthcoming if JW is ever mentioned, for sure. and thereby rattles my cage, and have found interest and sound information in both of your posts in the past. It is, however, getting to the place where I delete when I see your names. PEACE BROTHERS!! Same to you! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
As to ergonomics: a slight variation won't matter much. But if you'd compared a Hoffmann against an Edlinger you wouldn't be asking this question. Once again, I'm not talking about any modification with precedent in baroque-era pieces. I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? ...I could tell you that there is nothing wrong with playing vihuela music on a guitar, celesta, wurlitzer or any other instrument. However the same consensus would tell you that this has only about 10% of the pleasurability of vihuela music being played on a vihuela (when played as it should be, as in Ariel Abramovich). I play vihuela music on a speculative vihuela too, although, unlike Ms. Abramovich, without professional ability/aspiration. As I imagine Ms. Abramovich feels, I really enjoy doing so. ...But that's a side topic and was only given as an example of my not being offended by a _little_ flexibility in reproduction luthiery. When I indulge in vihuela music (or even 5-course guitar music) on modern guitar, I approach it as transcription and enjoy it as such. This is fine. I personally have enjoyed trancriptions when played by sensitive musicians like Lagoya-Presti or Benitez, but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
I play vihuela music on a speculative vihuela too, although, unlike Ms. Abramovich, without professional ability/aspiration. As I imagine Ms. Abramovich feels, I really enjoy doing so. ... I think you might want to look in http://www.elcortesano.com before biting your toes... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
At 04:43 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them. ...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene Even if (according to saying from the old country) in absence of fish: crayfish will do... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
Also, easier on the right shoulder as well. ed At 12:00 PM 4/20/2005 -0400, Roman Turovsky wrote: Flatter lutes are also a lot more ergonomic on one's left shoulder. RT Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
.These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them Eugene, My two cents about this I approached guitar making from the opposite end of the spectrum, big, loud ,modern guitars, Madrid school, type beasts, deep bodied lots of air volume etc. Now I come full spectrum back to Torres size instruments smaller air cavity and smaller shape. Interesting to note, that Hauser did the same thing ,during the middle of is carrier he made larger guitars only to go back to smaller ones in his more mature years. The point being, is what has gone before, should be studied well, as a point of departure. With all the different size lutes in the past, there is really not much one can try that hasn't been done before. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 3:11 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute At 04:43 PM 4/20/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm sorry, but the best examples I can call to mind are the baroque mandolini of Dan Larson and the barockmandolinen of various current German luthiers (Dietrich, e.g.): nice lute-related instruments with nice sound, but of dimensions/proportions unlike anything of the baroque to rococo era, in spite of baroque inspired decor and gut strings/frets. I'm certain there are proper-lute parallels, even if not so obvious. Anlike anything baroque/rococo??? How so? These are rather idealized instruments, much bigger than extant mandolini, and designed for a smoothness of tone to appeal to modern ears. As Eric correctly points out, Dan Larson's standard mandolini (not his Strad models) are maybe a little closer to some hypothetical original (certainly not Lambert's), but are still idealized in changing the volume of the soundbox to something not quite like anything with precedent. ...But there must be some proper-lute parallels. I'm keen for opinion on them. ...but going all the way is a lot better than half-measure, especially if there is a definite opportunity, ifyouacquiremydrift. I do...and I do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
My only problems is that I musically abhor JW, in which I am far from alone, and I like (in an old Flemish tradition...) to have fun at the expense of stupid people. Thames obviously thinks that mindless ad hominems are funny, so he is fair game My only problems is that I musically abhor JW, in which I am far from alone, and I like (in an old Flemish tradition...) to have fun at the expense of stupid people. Thames obviously thinks that mindless ad hominems are funny, so he is fair game If only the hunter was as skillfull as the prey! My only game is a strong dislike of being preached to about musical taste, by a self inflated dilettante, who's only mode of expression, are one liner insults. BTW, I'm not as preoccupied with lute sales as you are. Get over it ! I've got bigger fish to fry! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joseph Mayes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute If you guys have nothing to say that a. doesn't include personal attacks and b. relates to lutes; Why don't you take it off-list? I lie a flame war as much as the next fellow (ie. Not at all) but this grows tiresome. Moi I'm just collecting some dialogue to be used in a novel, while practicing my English. I have no idea what Thames' game is, aside from blowing his lutemaker's reputation on trying to outdo MO in useless resilience. He squarely accomplished both. My only problems is that I musically abhor JW, in which I am far from alone, and I like (in an old Flemish tradition...) to have fun at the expense of stupid people. Thames obviously thinks that mindless ad hominems are funny, so he is fair game. I mostly lurk on the list, unless some one spouts some anti-guitar trash More will be forthcoming if JW is ever mentioned, for sure. and thereby rattles my cage, and have found interest and sound information in both of your posts in the past. It is, however, getting to the place where I delete when I see your names. PEACE BROTHERS!! Same to you! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Schelle lute
Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Schelle lute
I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Schelle lute
I do not know. ed At 07:51 PM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed Ed, When Paul was here in December, he told me it was a Frei, bass rider. Maybe he got a new one? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Schelle lute I do not know, but Paul O'Dette also used a Sebastian Schelle instrument when I saw him last week in St Paul. it had a bass rider, about 70 cm mensur. ed At 09:04 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Does anyone out there happen to know which Schelle, Andy Rutherford used for Barto's lute? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
