Re: [mb-style] RFC: New score relationship
On Aug 8, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: Sorry, completely forgot about this one. +1 from me - but please talk with Rob to make sure he's OK with it since he needs to approve every lyrics and score relationship. Once you have talked with him feel free to move to RFV :) I just chatted with Alastair about this and its fine by me. -- --ruaok Robert Kaye -- r...@musicbrainz.org --http://musicbrainz.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: Rights society relationship (STYLE-209)
On Apr 10, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Nikki wrote: This proposal is for a new label type Rights Society and a relationship between labels and releases, which will give the existing entries a real meaning and also give us a more structured way to enter rights society information. Wiki page for the relationship: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Nikki/Rights_society_relationship Ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-209 +1 to this from me -- this will be increasingly important for us going forward. -- --ruaok Robert Kaye -- r...@musicbrainz.org --http://musicbrainz.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: Copyright relationship
On Jan 3, 2013, at 1:44 PM, daniel. wrote: I think it's relevant for a music encyclopedia to have data about copyright and phonographic copyright: the copyright holders of a release or a recording (and its date). They can be the label or other entities, or the artist. I think most releases have that information, I don't see why MusicBrainz still doesn't have a relationship type for this. Here is one consideration that we need to be careful of: Copyrights change and are sold frequently. In a quite a few cases, the data that is on the CD does not actually represent who owns the rights TODAY. It represents who owned the copyrights when this stuff was released. Because of this we need to make sure that the users of our data are aware of the fact that this data should not be used to make any kind of (royalty) payments. If money goes into the wrong hands because of our data, we can be held liable due to shitty US laws. That isn't to say that we can't do this, but we need a disclaimer on the pages that display the data and where people can download the data. -- --ruaok Robert Kaye -- r...@musicbrainz.org --http://musicbrainz.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On May 24, 2011, at 8:04 AM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: I couldn't agree more and I've raised this issue in at least one discussion. I didn't expect NGS to be an excuse to change the guidelines by dictate rather than discussion. I'd like to remind folks that Nikki and Warp are your BDFLs for all things style. That said, I applaud their efforts (and financially supported them as well!) for making NGS style guidelines happen. At some point you have to put a few people together, get out of the way and let them revamp everything. This was one of those times and I support Warp and Nikki in their work -- thank you, you two! This isn't to say that the NGS style guidelines didn't get at least a modicum of review by others -- they did. Nor is their work saying that we're going to ignore the input from the community -- we aren't. If something is broke now, lets use the community process to fix it. -- --ruaokThe answer to whether or not something is a good idea should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it. Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] NGS release date: May 16th
NGS is finally coming: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=812 \ø/ -- --ruaokThe answer to whether or not something is a good idea should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it. Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] We have a new Style Leader: Nikki
Please welcome your new style leader! Nikki has become our new style leader! For all the details, read on: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=629 Thank you for all your efforts Brian! -- --ruaokThe answer to whether or not something is a good idea should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it. Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Public reprimand (was: RFV: Clarify order of precidence of guidelines and principles)
On Apr 8, 2010, at 7:18 AM, Brian Schweitzer wrote: SNIP Guidelines and principles say what they mean. They do not mean what you say. Period. SNIP Ignoring your implication that I and others here have not done just the same, as I think every one of us who cares about style would fit your description. ( Preface: In 2006 during the great debate, I got hammered up and down for dealing with troublesome people in private. When I went public with the issues at hand and rejected Keschte as a developer many people where shocked as what was happening and how things came out of the blue. Having learned my lesson, I am taking the steps to reprimand troublesome parties in public. Please bear with me. ) Brian, It is the duty of the style leader to drive consensus and stop back- and-forth arguments in order to drive the style process to a meaningful conclusion. Your statements and actions in the style process of the past few weeks have been anything but that. I know of two people who have taken a step away from MusicBrainz because of your actions. Thats two people who have spoken to me about this, which means there are several more people who have quietly stepped away from MusicBrainz because of you. Your actions are damaging this project. Let's take one quote from you as an example: They do not mean what you say. Period. Voice is part of the community and working hard to improve the style process. The style guidelines ARE what he says and what others say. Its is your job to drive the community feedback process towards consensus. It is not your point to shut down contributors that do not agree with you. I'm going to have to ask you to start behaving like someone who is driving the community process towards consensus. You need to take your personal interests out of the process and be inclusionary of other people's feedback. If you fail to do so, I will have to ask you to step down as the style leader. And, please spare me the long drawn out arguments as to why your actions are right -- they are not. -- --ruaokThe answer to whether or not something is a good idea should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it. Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: Add Has News Coverage At AR
On Feb 28, 2010, at 3:12 AM, Chad Wilson wrote: I'm reading two different concepts here. The original idea for Guardian in IRC talks about linking to tag/index pages on an artist, which might be sensible. The proposal as it reads, and the basic text of the relationship sounds like a free-for-all to link to individual articles, which I don't think would be a good idea. Which is it? Why is linking to individual news articles a problem? -- --ruaokThe answer to whether or not something is a good idea should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it. Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Has Lyrics at AR
Wooo hooo! The SF Music Tech Summit on Monday was really quite worthwhile for me to attend on a number of levels. One of the ways that I really appreciated was Sean from Wikia (formerly of LyricWiki) reaching out to me. He encourages MusicBrainz to link to the newly licensed LyricWiki now hosted at Wikia. I asked him to create a permissions page to give us permission to link to his site -- and presto here it is: http://lyrics.wikia.com/LyricWiki:Permission With that, we're cleared to link to lyrics.wikia.com for AR lyric links! Would someone like to take on the chore of creating a RFC for this new lyric type and see it through the style process? Please note that we should only use this new AR type to link to lyrics.wikia.com -- I'll probably change the MB code to not allow linking this AR type to any other domain. -- --ruaokThe answer to whether or not something is a good idea should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it. Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] http://www.akuma.de
On Jun 9, 2009, at 8:22 AM, Chad Wilson wrote: If money is the issue, Its not a money issue. Do we have an impending financial crisis at MB I'm not aware of? Fortunately not, no. The people behind akuma contacted me about adding the links and they offered to put money on the table. Not wanting to turn down free money, I wanted to gauge the feedback from the community (thats why this wasn't an RFC, Warp). And I think the community has clearly spoken -- I'll go tell them we're not interested. Thanks everyone! -- --ruaok A village in Texas has its fool back! Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] http://www.akuma.de
Hi! Someone from http://www.akuma.de contacted me and asked if we were interested in adding AR links to the akuma.de. They are also willing to help pay for the creation of the links. I'd rather do this: - Create the AR link (as we did for the BBC) - Have them have their own team add the links. - Have them send us a donation. What are the general thoughts on this? -- --ruaok A village in Texas has its idiot back! Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV: New BBC AR type
On May 21, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Chad Wilson wrote: While I realise that it will be reasonably straightforward in this case, I'd rather see the documentation page beforehand, as a matter of principle. Since documentation == guideline I think we need to vote/withold veto/comment on the basis of the advice rather than just the idea? Unless someone can take on this chore for me, this RFV is going to have to stay open. I'm totally slammed/out of town until June 1. -- --ruaok A village in Texas has its fool back! Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] RFC: New BBC AR type
As previously discussed, this RFC proposes to add a new Advanced Relationship type to highlight BBC artist pages. This artist-url Advanced Relationship link would look like this: artist a has a BBC artist page at url and its reverse: url is a BBC artist page of artist a The new link type would not use any attributes or dates. The motivation behind this new AR type is to highlight artist pages on the BBC site since the BBC is putting serious amounts of effort towards making comprehensive pages for their most popular artists. This AR type goes above and beyond the capabilities of simply linking based on MBIDs alone and allows us to create an even richer set of links in MusicBrainz. -- --ruaok A village in Texas has its idiot back! Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: New BBC AR type
On May 11, 2009, at 4:31 PM, Paul C. Bryan wrote: +1. Would these ARs be maintainable by users, or would the plan be to maintain them automagically? Maintained by users, at least initially. We can get fancy later. -- --ruaok A village in Texas has its fool back! Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] has a BBC page at AR
On May 6, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Kuno Woudt wrote: Ruaok, Considering your previous post, I have no objection to the AR. Murdos, any other thoughts? -- --ruaok A village in Texas has its idiot back! Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] has a BBC page at AR
On May 4, 2009, at 4:02 PM, Paul C. Bryan wrote: I wonder if there would be a web-way to automagically maintain links? For example, if they had a tag on a page that means has meaningful content, could we automatically traverse their associated pages to determine what to link up to our own? I could see something like this Would there ever be a reason we'd need to maintain these links manually? Not really, aside from the fact that it would take time to write code to maintain them. But since the BBC is keen on maintaining these links its little/no effort to us. Secondary question, if they display cover art or artist images for inter-linkages, could we use them on MB? I'll ask them, but I wouldn't hold my breath. :) -- --ruaok A village in Texas has its idiot back! Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] has a BBC page at AR
Hi! The BBC is wondering if we would be up for adding a has a BBC page at AR type? Even though both the BBC and MB speak the same set of identifiers it can be useful to know which set of MBIDs actually resolve to meaningful content at the BBC. Thoughts? -- --ruaok A village in Texas has its fool back! Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Jim DeLaHunt is our new style leader!
I just posted this to the blog: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=339 Congratulations Jim! -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new [Documentation|Style] leader
On Jul 31, 2008, at 3:43 AM, Lukáš Lalinský wrote: So, if we really want to migrate to MediaWiki, I'd sugges to not upgrade to MoinMoin 1.6, but go straight to MediaWiki. Do you want to load the results onto scooby so everyone can play with the results? I can have DW add a new DNS entry for it -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new [Documentation|Style] leader
On Jul 30, 2008, at 3:00 AM, Lukáš Lalinský wrote: I didn't know about such an idea. If people think MediaWiki would really work better for us, I'm willing to at least try to do the work. The most important thing to consider about moving to a new wiki is that we can add a plugin to retrieve any header-less revision of a the wiki page that is suitable for transclusion. If we can get that to work, I'm happy to help with the migration... -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new [Documentation|Style] leader
On Jul 30, 2008, at 9:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm thinking, making a plan of how to proceed will be a lot easier, if we really understand what we've already got. If you think this is a good idea, I'm willing to take it on (and if I take it on, I'm obviously willing to add other 'measurements' that should be collected as it's being done.) Go team Kiwi! I think you two are on the right track for fixing things -- please feel free to move ahead to streamline the process and fix up the docs. As far as the Moin 1.6 migration is concerned, Brian Freud and Panda were the two biggest proponents of that work. However, both of them have been swallowed up by life, so that project should be considered dead/dormant for the time being. If MediaWiki can be used for transclusion, I'm all for the switch. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Jul 25, 2008, at 12:01 AM, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: snippage Everything snipped, I agreed with. 1. There's lots of purely editorial flaws, not policy-related, in our docs. Clearly stale content labelled as under revision. Poorly structured pages. Discussion placed inconsistently within policy pages, or on separate Discussion pages. Unclear writing. I think we need a way to identify editorial problems, and open them up to low-overhead fixes that don't go through the mb-style discussion process. We need editorial guidelines for this. Newbie editors (as I was a few months ago) should be able to dive in and help with this. Also agreed. I think this is part of a larger problem -- our overall docs are in disarray and could benefit from someone taking an active role as Documentation Chief and cleaning house a bit. We've also lost some WikiWardens who were directly involved in writing documentation, which makes this situation worse. A WikiWarden armed with transclusion rights would be in a good position to clean house here. Would anyone be interested in taking an active role in documentation for MusicBrainz? thinking_out_loud A documentation chief should/could/might: - Create an list of pieces of documentation that MB should have to help its users/developers along. - Review documentation, delete old documentation and remove superfluous documentation. - Identify who in the community should write/fix documentation that is needed. - Assign bugs to developers to fix documentation that cannot be fixed/ written by the community at large. - Over time, keep an eye on documentation and periodically revise documentation as MB changes. (mostly around releases of software) Like the style leader, I'd hope that this person would not personally write most of the documentation, but prod the community/volunteers/ developers to write the documentation. /thinking_out_loud 2. For classical recordings, I think a list of common work and movement titles would help hugely. They would let new users copy existing text for TrackTitles and ReleaseTitles, without having to understand the whole ClassicalStyleGuide. The CSGStandard pages are one approach to such a list. Within the last few months there was a proposal to store such a list in the database somehow. In either case, copying is easier than generating anew. I need to touch base with Lukas and see how his Works branch is coming along... 6. Our process needs some backwards arrows. There should be clear transitions for stuck proposals to go back to an earlier stage. Do you have a rough draft that outlines how you view the process? Interestingly, one thing which I think the Style Czar not need do much of, is make style policy decisions. Because, I think, we've got fine people with fine ideas, we already have the wisdom to get those decisions right. Once the process is properly tuned, I think this will be the case. I agree with everything you've said -- I think you're certainly on the right track. I'm ready to declare Jim as the new style leader? Does anyone have any objections? If so, speak up now! -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Jul 10, 2008, at 10:37 PM, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: Of course it's obvious to anyone who sees how he dresses that Jim is hopelessly unqualified to be a style leader. And apparently you don't understand the concept of a private email either. ;-) Seriously.. I think you understand the task at hand, and its a pretty daunting one. It seems that we haven't figured out the magic recipe for a distributed style mechanism. Why? Because its hard -- without a dedicated person putting in effort constantly you apparently can't do it. [0] So, in May I spent a few lovely hours with Christoph König (aka Don Redman, our former style leader) and discussed the current state of affairs here and bantered back and forth on what should be done and how. This helped me define a set of requirements that I think are important for a new style process: - The process should define a rough method for how a style issue gets turned from an idea into a concrete proposal that clearly outlines how the guidelines will change. I don't think the process should define what tools get used to form a proposal, but I think it should clearly define the process of how a proposal is reviewed and accepted/ rejected. It would be good to outline a few example methods to create a proposal. - Instead of working out complex proposals on this mailing list, we should encourage like-minded people to form ad-hoc groups on a particular style issue. These ad-hoc groups should collect input from the community at large and then go about solving a particular issue. It might very well be useful to the group to carry out this initial phase in private. This would keep a lid on the communication in the early stages of a proposal. Once the group finishes a proposal, the proposal should come into the view of the public and be reviewed by everyone who cares to look at it. - Panda discussed creating templates that might give some structure to style proposals. This might give some much needed structure to the overfall process: to create a proposal, use an existing template and fill it out completely. Concrete steps to follow. If the issue doesn't fit one of the available templates, find another way to express/propos the issue. Maybe create a new template while you're at it. - Each proposal should probably include some very basic components. A motivation section that describes the issue at hand, an example case section and a clearly stated goal that the proposal is supposed to solve. - No one person should be able to ham-string the process. No single user vetos. But there must be room for an orderly community revolt in case the process (nukes the fridge/jumps the shark/jumps off the rails). - The style leader should work with myself and perhaps a handful of other people to define this new process. Then this process needs to be documented and set into motion. Initially there would be lots and lots of work to take care of the backlog of issues. Ideally though the style leader should only work when there is a deadlock in the community. Or endless arguing on a point -- the leader should assess the situation, make a decision and move the discussion on. The style leader should be a guide. A tie breaker. A consensus former. Apply lube as needed to keep the process running. Oh, if you want to give a new name to our style process/council/ whatever, please do. Perhaps its time to bring back the term Style Cabal. :) After-all, the Style Leader position is a benevolent dictator position. Jim: I would love to hear what you think of my ideas and how you would tackle the task of defining a working style process! I mean really, a fleece jacket in July. He must live in Canada or something. Oh canadia! [1] [0] http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/02/the_bottom_is_n.php [1] http://flickr.com/photos/mayhem/267098825/ -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 Panda won't be the next style leader -- real life swallowed him whole. :-( Sigh. Zero responses in total. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to proceed with the Style Council? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:49 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 Panda won't be the next style leader -- real life swallowed him whole. :-( Sigh. Zero responses in total. Ooops, that was not correct. Jim DeLaHunt expressed interest. If you have any thoughts on Jim being the style leader, please drop me a *private* email. Thanks! -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Looking for a new style leader
FYI: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=332 Panda won't be the next style leader -- real life swallowed him whole. :-( -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] artist type: project
On Oct 10, 2006, at 3:26 PM, Chris Bransden wrote: i never felt it was resolved. i feel that group is a plural, person is a singular, but project is pretty vague. i agree with lauri's comments in the original discussion that if we're to include project, we need collaboration, band, person and group, and all their definitions need to be rock solid (which i feel is impossible) to avoid edit wars. What is the difference between a band and a group? I could see adding a collaboration and a project type, but anything else starts getting too complicated. Would anyone venture to write a one paragraph definition for each of these proposed types? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV: Artist type: Project
On Oct 11, 2006, at 2:45 PM, Don Redman wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:22:58 +0200, Robert Kaye wrote: Given that there seem to be no real objections to this, I'd like to put out an official call for veto on this topic. Please speak up in the next 48 hours if you have objections to this issue. Otherwise I will bring the code back for the next server release. VETO for formal reasons Please issue an RFV when the (kind of) RFC discussion has either died out or trailed off into tangents. Not when it is in mid course. Ok, fine. Its clear that this is not a done deal -- I was hoping to write some code, but it looks like wrangling discussions more is in order. Do we have a champion for this idea who can work to get consensus? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] artist type: project
Was there a resolution on this issue? If so, I'd like to include this in the next server release... -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: Transliterations/translations, again!
On Aug 9, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Simon Reinhardt wrote: Robert Kaye wrote: Shepard says: Listen to Don: rules follow practice. With tons and tons of translations and transliterations already being in the database you cannot just go and make a guideline not to allow that. It's unrealistic. Rules that follow from bad practices are bad rules. Well then we need to change them into good practices. But you cannot just create a rule to forbid transliterations and translations, that won't work. Whether the current practices are good or not and how to change them is one topic that surely needs to be addressed and that needs long-term solutions. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about providing means that will help to transform the current solution into a long-term solution later. And it's not even hard to implement. I think this can't be bad. Fair enough, I can appreciate that. What rules to we adopt for having people attach PUIDs/TRMs/discids to these duplicate releases? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: Transliterations/translations, again!
On Aug 9, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Nikki wrote: While I do agree with this, I feel that if we ban transliterations and translations, we're not doing ourselves any favours. Secondly, all of this data can be used later with NGS. We would be *stupid* to delete all the transliterations and translations right now. I never suggested that we ought to get rid of them. I am mainly concerned about making this an approved practice. ...didn't you say the tagger users pay the bills? They do, and I want to support them. But that does not change the fact that our primary purpose is a music encyclopedia and a tagging system second. But, income is increasingly coming from other sources these days -- which I welcome wholeheartedly. Rules that follow from bad practices are bad rules. Maybe so, but rules that go completely against current practise will be hard to enforce. Can't argue that either. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: New Artist Type: Project
On Jul 7, 2006, at 6:47 AM, joan WHITTAKER wrote: You already know my opinion on this, but to reiterate it, I definitely think that project should be added and as we have already discussed this at some length, then it should be taken to the Request for Veto stage. Ooops. We screwed the pooch. It turns out that the 'project' artist type was put up on test, but it was not removed before we did a release. Now we have four artists that have been marked as 'project'. :-( I did not mean to circumvent the process here -- I do apologize. Please advise if I should: 1. reset the four artists to unknown and remove the project type from the live server or 2. don't sweat it and call it a done deal or 3. Have the RFV now and if a veto appears, I will do #1. Sorry for the hassle. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: New Artist Type: Project
On Jul 13, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Steve Wyles wrote: On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, Robert Kaye wrote: I did not mean to circumvent the process here -- I do apologize. Please advise if I should: 1. reset the four artists to unknown and remove the project type from the live server or 2. don't sweat it and call it a done deal or 3. Have the RFV now and if a veto appears, I will do #1. Was the impact on the libraries, applications and datafeed customers assessed? Its minimal, since the implementation was equally as minimal. We could go back just as easily. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC: New Artist Type: Project
On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Beth wrote: Coding needed?: Unsure Minimal. Not a worry, really. Effect on the current system?: Unsure Same, very minimal impact. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] (album version)
On Jun 19, 2006, at 8:00 AM, Stefan Kestenholz wrote: Removing a version name like 'album version' is completely arbitrarily and must stop. If I had anything to say. of course you do. your position as a major contributor (#1 on the top editors list) gives your voice a bit more weight IMHO than a normal contributor might have. I think Aaron's response was already fairly well spot on. Everyone in the Style Council has a voice and that voice is not really connected to the number of edits made by that person. We do appreciate the hard work by all of our editors, but that shouldn't give them greater power here. If we did, then it would simply destabilize this body that works hard to make things clear. We've had this problem in the past and it was very painful experience for me. :-( -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] How the Style Council Works (Was: RFV: Adding some AR attributes)
On Jun 11, 2006, at 12:29 PM, Don Redman wrote: Question to the Style Council (i.e. everybody involved in mb-style): Do you feel that this process is too formalized or too complicated? I think we're finally hitting some sweet spot between too formalized and utter chaos. I'm happy. Is it impossible to actually use, because people forget the topics once the discussions have ebbed out? The list archives don't forget -- I think letting a discussion die down before reformulating makes a lot of sense to me. In a lot of cases a cool-down period can be very useful for letting people's emotions cool down. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV: Latin style guidelines
On Jun 8, 2006, at 2:57 AM, derGraph wrote: Robert Kaye wrote: I'm sorry but I simply do not have the background to make a decision on this. Herr Redman, can you please organize a vote? I doubt a vote would make much sense, especially because hardly anyone seems to know enough or care enough about this issue. I'd still prefer to make a compromise between the two extremes, even though this seems to be a hard-to-achieve goal. Given that no one here is clued in enough about latin, would it make sense for us to find a latin specialist and pick their brain? Don, how is the Languages department at Darmstadt? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV: Latin style guidelines
On May 29, 2006, at 9:23 AM, derGraph wrote: There has been no consensus, which means Robert has to decide. I am sure he will be less than happy to rule upon such an issue, but that's the official process. I CCed this mail to him, which should be enough. So we kneel and wait for the Evil Overlord to proclaim His judgement. I'm sorry but I simply do not have the background to make a decision on this. Herr Redman, can you please organize a vote? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Re: [RFV] MySpace AR request
On Apr 17, 2006, at 8:10 AM, Lukáš Lalinský wrote: Can somebody (don, shepard, zout?) post a short announcument on blog.mb.org, please? I think blog is better place than mb-users for such announcuments, as only a few of MB users are subscribed to mb-users, but blog is visible for everybody from the homepage. Agreed, and done. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
I think Don's summary of the DVD issues is pretty close to what we should go with. official_sounding_voice 1. We will store DVDs in MusicBrainz and we'll start doing this by using the existing album structure. 2. We will not use DVD in the title. 3. We can start adding DVDs into MusicBrainz. Once we get a few (more) into the database, we will see how people have been adding them and only then start creating official guidelines for how DVDs will be entered. As usual, we will attempt to keep the rules as simple as possible. I would like to ask the Style Secretary to pick the right point in time to establish the rules and to get the ball rolling at that time. 4. DVDs in MusicBrainz will represent releases that you can buy. Official DVD releases will also be considered official for MB. We'll have to consider how to improve support for DVDs in MB when we improve the handling for albums. We'll make do for now. 5. If for some reason the track listing that people have for a DVD is different from the actual DVD, create a second album and mark the second album as a bootleg. Figuring out when and when not to do this will be part of establishing the DVD style guidelines -- first lets observe what people are doing and then we'll nail down the guidelines. /official_sounding_voice All of this is going to take some time -- as usual. If some time down the road you think that the DVD guidelines have mature, please mention it here and we'll see about updating the official style guidelines. Thanks, and have a good weekend everyone! On Apr 5, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Don Redman wrote: Wow, I liked this response (and I had not thought it could come out of that silly speaker thread). so let's keep up summarizing: (1) MB is currently not able to genuinely store metadata in a format that will apply to all DVDs However, the current album-oriented way of storing metadata is applicable to a majority of DVDs. This is what StyleGuidelines are for. Therefore DVDs could be added to MusicBrainz using relatively complex guidelines. But if the pro- DVD people are willing to work these guidelines out and to watch that they are being applied, that is ok. - The guidelines could specify that stuff above a certain level of complexity belongs to the annotation. - The guidelines coud outline a threshold of 'musical relatedness' under which DVDs should not be added to MB - etc. (2) DVDs have a non negligeable role in musical culture. They are probably going to become even more important. Can MusicBrainz afford to ignore this phenomenon? I do not think so. (3) Are DVD entries _in the MB database_ 'official'? This depends on the definition of what a DVD is _in MB_. Some define it as an entry representing an audio rip. Then it makes sense to set the status to 'bootleg'. Othes seem to define it as an etry representing the whole DVD. Then normal album rules should apply. Idea: Is it possinble to expand the current AlbumAttributes (without changing their structure or interface, just adding entries) to contain some DVD-specific attributes? Question: How much work is the rewrite of the AlbumAttributes which is documented in the wiki, and how far up on the list can it move? When could it be done, and could expanding the current set be a viable _intermediary_ solution? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] WTF DVD? (was: Veto - DVD in album titles)
Ok, I've read the DVD discussion all the way through and I am really confused. All I saw were two points of interest: 1. We should not put DVD in titles, since that is consistent with all the other media formats. 2. Some discussion on what consensus means, which was largely irrelevant to this topic. 3. There was no point three. Instead of making a decision on something I still don't understand, I would like to ask: 1. That the pro DVD in titles camp and the con DVD in titles camp informally elect a spokesperson. 2. Each selected person state their arguments succinctly and provide links to: MB pages and pertinent bits from the discussion that underscore your position. Please note that this is not a call for another out of control discussion on this subject. I just want a summary from each of the two camps, and then I will make a decision, ask for more feedback or ask the the camps to refine their position. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)
On Mar 27, 2006, at 5:24 AM, Don Redman wrote: And I am strongly opposed to removing your RelType editor privileges. Agreed. So far all Luks' actions were following valid bugs or instructions from the style secretary. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)
On Mar 27, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Jan van Thiel wrote: I think that if e.g. inhouseuk (sorry to (ab)use your name, just giving an example), a moderator with a spotless record, had requested these, they would've been added almost instantaneously. I disagree. If a moderator with a perfect record asks to add something that clutters the DB, I'd balk too. But I think our moderators with perfect records have a good enough grasp to understand when something clutters up the DB and when something makes sense. I'm just deducing the current system doesn't work yet, because of personal misunderstanding between people. Whether or not this involves 'whining'. Well, the system needs fine-tuning yes. And we're the process of working out the kinks. The problem is that one person said, Go and another person took those instructions and went ahead and did what was asked. The original Go was premature, but I think it would be worse to flounder and go back and remove it again. People make mistakes, we're all human. However, I do appreciate your sentiments. We should aim to be fair to all of our users. Spotless record moderators and whiners all alike. :-) -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Evil overlord implementation: Historical Countries and Europe
OK, short of minor corrections I did not see any significant arguments that should change my course. Thus I've changed/added the following countries: id | isocode | name -+-+ 61 | TL | East Timor 235 | YU | Yugoslavia (historical, 1918-1992) 236 | CD | Congo, The Democratic Republic of the 239 | XU | [Unknown Country] 240 | XW | [Worldwide] 241 | XE | Europe 242 | CS | Serbia and Montenegro 243 | SU | Soviet Union (historical, 1922-1991) 244 | XG | East Germany (historical, 1949-1990) 245 | XC | Czechoslovakia (historical, 1918-1992) Also, FX, France Metropolitan has been removed. Note that the country code for the DDR was suggested as XD, but since the name was changed, I ended up using XG. Finally, the rule for creating more historical countries is not governed by an arbitrary number of releases for a country, but by the currently accepted community decision making process. If someone wanted to propose a new historical country today, said person would propose this country on this list and the community will discuss the merit of the suggestion. If the community can't decide, we kick the idea back to me, the evil overlord. This process may change over time, thus the phrasing of the 'currently accepted process'. Your evil overlord has spoken! -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner
On Mar 22, 2006, at 7:37 PM, Brian Gurtler wrote: mos thingy is live. now can we have our vacuum cleaner? You have not demonstrated 5 uses of a vacuum cleaner in published works. There was an ambiguity over the 5 references -- I would like to see 5 published albums reference the instrument before we add it. I think 5 artists is too much, and 5 tracks too little. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Historical countries proposal
Ok, here is my proposed solution to the historical countries debate: 1. Add historical countries: - XC - Czechoslovakia [until 1993] - XD - German Democratic Republic [until 1990] - SU - Soviet Union [until 1992] 2. Fix Yugoslavia, which is in our countries list right now: - YU - Yugoslavia [until 1993] 3. Fix our current list by adding: - CS - Serbia and Montenegro 4. Establish rules for historical countries: - We only include countries currently recognized by ISO. - In addition, we recognize a few historical countries that can have more than N documented releases from that country. - We only keep track of countries with typical two letter codes. Three letter codes or even four letter codes are overkill for MusicBrainz. - If there is a release from a historical country that is not (yet) listed, add a country of origin note to the album annotation. My reasoning is that I want to keep the country list from exploding. We should not add things there that will not be used -- that only causes confusion. The arbitrary threshold of N releases is designed to keep the list from growing out of control. What's a good threshold for N? 10? 25? This proposal is not so much a Request for Comment as much as it is a sanity check. I've heard all the bits before and I am not really interested in starting a new discussion over again. HOWEVER, if you think we're making a grave mistake by proceeding with this proposal then I'd like to hear your comments. But, please spare me the I don't like it it sucks kinds of comments. I'll just ignore them. I'll address the EU issue next. May some deity have mercy on my soul. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Veto - DVD in album titles
On Mar 6, 2006, at 12:57 PM, Robert Kaye wrote: I'm currently mulling it over -- I'll re-read the threads and figure out our next step later today/tomorrow. OK, that obviously didn't happen. :-( Just to let you know, its near the top of my TODO list and you will hear from me on this soon. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Veto - DVD in album titles
On Mar 5, 2006, at 2:39 PM, Don Redman wrote: like i said my opinion is if it's a DVD of a concert or performance, it doesn't belong in MB unless it's added as a bootleg. Right, I observe dissensus. Now we can either ask Robert, or decide to leave the issue without a guideline (that was Fuchs' proposal). I'm currently mulling it over -- I'll re-read the threads and figure out our next step later today/tomorrow. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] State of the Style Secretary
On Feb 7, 2006, at 2:57 PM, Don Redman wrote: (anyone who has seen us two in person, will, of course, object ;-) ). That bitch just called me fat!! (at least your parens are balanced :-) ) -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] State of the Style Secretary
On Feb 7, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Björn Krombholz wrote: You can't compare those two in general. A normal bug fix means repairing a broken thing, that was supposed to be implemented correctly in the first place. A style issue is like adding new features, and that's far more complicated and even more as the style guideline is part of MusicBrainz interface between the database and the user. A bug is an objective fact, where with a known input the expected output is different from the real output. So you know what you have and you know what you want, something in between is broken. It is fixed, when expected and real output become identical. A style issue is a process that involves (1) finding the expected output (how should the data look like, so it is easy to handle in all affected aspects?) _and_ (2) implementing the thing in the middle in a way, that its output matches the results of phase (1). Very true -- however, when I last spoke with Don, he expressed his wishes more like: I wish we could try out possible style issue solutions the way we test bug fixes on test.mb.org. That is not to say that we should use the bug process for style issues, but that style issues should be rolled out on a test basis to let people see the actual impact of the proposed solution. And that makes sense, I think. And now some more general thoughts: 1. We're dealing with a lot of pent up frustrations from previous SC/ Style dude systems that weren't working so well anymore. So, I think part of our frustrations towards the Secretary stem from that and once we work through those and show that the new process is working, we'll find a smooth rhythm for working out style issues. Everyone please be a patient for a little longer. 2. As I mentioned above, rolling out style issues and bugs on test should be done more frequently. Luks already has root on test.mb.org and I would be willing to give that to fuchs as well and instruct both on how to update the staging server. Luks Fuchs: you wanna? 3. As far as the process for style changes is concerned: Does it really matter in what forum this happens in? What if a style discussion starts in mod notes, migrates to a wiki page and then gets formally presented to the secretary? As long as basic requirements for defining the problem, outlining the pros and cons and perhaps illustrating how the fix would look, does it matter where it is done? Perhaps we should define WHAT should be part of a style proposal and now HOW a style proposal should look. 4. Forming consensus: I don't think we've been forming consensus for a long time and as Fuchs points out -- this is not really possible with our size. We're now playing a game of politics: You can't make everyone happy. Every action will leave some happy people, some pissed off people and lots in between. When we talk about 'forming consensus' I think the reality of it looks a lot more like a utilitarian approach: How can we make the most number of people happy? I'm not really suggesting we changed anything -- I think this is mostly a matter of perception and using the right terminology. Just some thoughts on the current discussions, which I think are very exciting. We have difficult social systems to develop and we have a lot of intelligent people here who are contributing towards that goal. I think this is very exciting -- before the net you would largely see these things in action when some government was forming -- a rare occurrence. To be part of a social group that constantly reinvents itself as the demands placed on it change, is really cool. I have faith that in due time we will establish systems that will work for the long haul. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] PersonalAssociationRelationshipClass the goal of MB
On Jan 30, 2006, at 8:35 PM, Steve Wyles wrote: As you just mentioned, Rob hadn't seen the emails on the subject, therefore he is possibly making a decision on a whim without seeing the whole discussion. Just to clarify, I told Don that I would need to read up more on the list and that I would ponder it. There is no official ruling on this yet. -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Tarragon, Style Council and the winds of change
Hi everyone! Tarragon has recently informed me that he wishes to step down as the leader of the Style Council. Given that he declared his tenure to be temporary when he helped us emerge from the SG5 debacle, this is not really a surprise. Tarragon: Thank you very much for your time and helping us out in a time of need. Should I ever get myself down to .au, I will buy you a fine dinner and a few rounds of drinks -- your efforts and support of this project have been phenomenal and I deeply appreciate everything you've done for MusicBrainz. Don Redman and I have been discussing the style council over the last couple of weeks and how we should proceed from here to fill the very large shoes left behind by Tarragon. We feel that Tarragon's work on the ChecklistForStyleChanges wiki page and the adoption of Trac for style issues has provided more structure for us to work out style issues. Given these two changes and the nebulous nature of the Style Council, we believe that it is time to iterate the concept and see if we can establish a system that is a little more decentralized and thus hopefully more scalable. From here on out, we would like to try a two-tiered approach that consists of these two roles: 1. The Elder: This person will make decisions when the community cannot reach consensus. The Elder will read mb-style and generally keep up with style happenings, but generally not get involved in day- to-day operations. Ideally the Elder will not act until the Secretary calls upon the Elder to act. When the Elder is called upon to act on an issues, the Elder may ask the proponents of a style issue to present their arguments for their approach and against the countering approach. These arguments should summarize the issue at hand and distill the essence of the issues in a concise manner that will allow the Elder to become informed of the nuances of the issue and make an informed decision. In essence, the Elder is a benevolent dictator. The position of the Elder is a permanent position. [1] 2. The Secretary: This person ensures that the style process moves forward and continues to work. The secretary remains neutral on style issues and will work to foster consensus on style issues. Should consensus not be reached, the secretary calls on the Elder to make a decision on a style issue. The secretary will play the role of the Elder's right hand in all style issues and will ensure that style rules are being followed and adjust style rules as necessary. This person will require people to check the ChecklistForStyleChanges, open and close issues, give final yeses to style changes if the community reaches consensus. Most of this will be administrative work and this position will rotate every three months. As the benevolent dictator of MusicBrainz, I hereby abolish the Style Council and assume the role of Elder. I choose Don Redman as my Secretary for the next three months. Thank you for all the folks who have participated in the Style Council in the past, but its time to move on and attempt a different structure that we use to deal with style problems. We hope that over the next three months we can set a number of precedents that match our actions here on the style mailing list. Our new Secretary, who is very well versed on social issues in all forms, says that our guiding principles should be: Make rules by making things work along them. Never invent rules before things work. Rules should follow practice, not lead it. In the coming week Don will start by tackling open issues, resolving some and passing some on to me to decide. Mr. Secretary: Thank you for accepting this new job -- the stage is yours! Thanks! [1] Don and I are using Konrad Adenauer, post-war Germany's first chancellor as the example for the Elder. Adenauder had little to no precedents (or they were all really poor precedents) to follow when he started his job. Adenauer set many precedents for all of the chancellors to follow -- many of which are still in use today. More on Adenauer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Adenauer -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] support@ help wanted
Hi! A few times a week we get style questions posed to support@ -- rather than referring these folks on to this list, I'd prefer to forward them to someone who can respond to the person directly. I was wondering if there was anyone here whom I could enlist to help answer these mails? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
