Re: XML support for MySQL
On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 11:45:33PM -0600, Prasad Budim Ram wrote: Is it possible to direct xml support for queryiing a SQL statement and get the result in also in xml? Nope. -- Jeremy D. Zawodny | Perl, Web, MySQL, Linux Magazine, Yahoo! [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://jeremy.zawodny.com/ MySQL 4.0.15-Yahoo-SMP: up 40 days, processed 1,533,760,097 queries (440/sec. avg) -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: XML support for MySQL
There is a project that was started to do this though. Do a google search, on master thesis XML and MYSQL. Maybe they have some code that can be contributed or you can use for a private branch. In the mean time it's easy to generate XML on a simple DTD in side your code. - Dathan Vance Pattishall - Sr. Programmer and mySQL DBA for FriendFinder Inc. - http://friendfinder.com/go/p40688 ---Original Message- --From: Jeremy Zawodny [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 1:17 AM --To: Prasad Budim Ram --Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --Subject: Re: XML support for MySQL -- --On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 11:45:33PM -0600, Prasad Budim Ram wrote: -- Is it possible to direct xml support for queryiing a SQL statement and -- get the result in also in xml? -- --Nope. --Jeremy D. Zawodny | Perl, Web, MySQL, Linux Magazine, Yahoo! --[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://jeremy.zawodny.com/ -- --MySQL 4.0.15-Yahoo-SMP: up 40 days, processed 1,533,760,097 queries --(440/sec. avg) -- --MySQL General Mailing List --For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql --To unsubscribe: --http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: XML support for MySQL
I dont know about going in, but i wonder if there is an extension module to do this for you. I currently have to use a class i built to extra the xml from a query in php :\ Is it possible to direct xml support for queryiing a SQL statement and get the result in also in xml? Prasad -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe: http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: XML support in MySQL
Hello udayashankarl_n, Thursday, January 03, 2002, 4:12:11 PM, you wrote: There is no mechanism to manage it alike to SQL , for it needs many knowledge such as schema discovery for semi-stru data and so on , and it is more complex . -- Best regards, isp01ljlmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support
Since this is an open source product, it could happen a lot sooner if you wrote it :) I don't know of any plans to include that, at least in the near future. Steve Meyers -Original Message- From: can [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: XML support When will mysql support XML with function same as Oracle XSU? Kenneth. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML Support
Gary Huntress ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: In the past few days 3 different people have asked me about xml support in mysql. I was unsure what to tell them actually, beyond saying you can easily export recordsets to xml documents.Obviously you can store entire XML documents in a TEXT field, but I'm not sure thats really the functionality that they want. I don't understand this. Do they want to wrap their data in XML to produce output? That's relatively trivial and shouldn't be done in the server, but any MySQL-aware language (PHP, Perl, Escapade, etc.) would be able to produce XML output easily from data. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - 214/341-4420 - http://www.pobox.com/~erc Squished Mosquito, Inc. Internet Applications Development Escapade Server-Side Scripting Language Development Team http://www.squishedmosquito.com Pensacola - Dallas - Dresden - London - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML Support
Gary Huntress wrote: In the past few days 3 different people have asked me about xml support in mysql. I was unsure what to tell them actually, beyond saying you can easily export recordsets to xml documents.Obviously you can store entire XML documents in a TEXT field, but I'm not sure thats really the functionality that they want. Ah! - buzywords, when you filter them out you are left with a markup, data descritption and somewhere to keep it - and in many cases that will be a RDBMS, although most people use one by default. Actually the observation made was that MySQL and PostgreSQL might be falling behind the commercial databases in terms of native XML support. Oracle, MSSQL, and Sybase (probably DB2 as well since IBM is pretty big in the XML arena) already have some type of support. Not falling behind, just less buzyword compliant. To me XML and a DOM tree are not the same as relational data. If your data is not relational why use a RDBMS ? I think XPath support in Selects might be a good place to start. So basically, is anything in the works for XML? No idea, but this was discussed on the list a few months ago - check the archives as I think a few MySQL chipped in. Sorry if this sounds a little negative and sarcastic, but I've delt with a few projects where it got over complicated because of the use of XML/XSLT, and managers whom want to use a product because its got nive brochures and buzwords . Greg Cope Regards, Gary SuperID Huntress === - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML Support
Gary Huntress writes:
In the past few days 3 different people have asked me about xml support in
mysql. I was unsure what to tell them actually, beyond saying you can
easily export recordsets to xml documents.Obviously you can store
entire XML documents in a TEXT field, but I'm not sure thats really the
functionality that they want.
Actually the observation made was that MySQL and PostgreSQL might be falling
behind the commercial databases in terms of native XML support. Oracle,
MSSQL, and Sybase (probably DB2 as well since IBM is pretty big in the XML
arena) already have some type of support.
Hi,
It would be nice if someone could detail more specifically what XML
features these commercial databases provide; and to what extent they
are actually useful and necessary in the RDBMS context.
The generally feeling about XML and MySQL right now, is that it
doesn't belong in the server. It is considered bloatware, and goes
counter to the aim of MySQL to be lean 'n mean. :)
At most there could be some additions to the MySQL Client library to
help with XML transformations and whatnot.
In 4.0 I have already added XML output to the 'mysql' command-line
tool ('-X' option) to equate to the current HTML output
functionality. I will also try to add XML output functionality to the
'mysqldump' utility in 4.0. Although this may have to wait until 4.1.
On my long-range TODO I would like to contact people like Matt
Sergeant (of Perl XML/AxKit fame) to see what features we could
add to the MySQL server to assist his efforts.
If anybody on this list has ideas/suggestions/requests on this topic,
please direct them to the Internals List [EMAIL PROTECTED].
Regards,
Matt
--
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Re: xml support?
On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 12:40:45PM +0100, Steve Menday wrote: I am trying to find out whether mysql has any support for xml? Can anyone help me please? Please cc replies to [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What sort of support? XML is just text. You can store and retrieve text with MySQL, so it's logical to assume you can do the same with XML. (There have been long discussions on this list in the past about what XML support for MySQL means. I suggest you have a look at the archives.) Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 349-7878Fax: (408) 349-5454Cell: (408) 439-9951 MySQL 3.23.29: up 6 days, processed 38,221,751 queries (73/sec. avg) - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: xml support?
I wrote a really cheesy tutorial that demonstrates a simple way to export the results of a query to XML. It's located at http://www.phpdeveloper.org/tutout.php?num=20 Would it be useful to add an option to mysqldump to also write an xml document? I've considered trying to tackle that too :) Regards, Gary SuperID Huntress === FreeSQL.org offering free database hosting to developers Visit http://www.freesql.org - Original Message - From: Steve Menday [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 7:40 AM Subject: xml support? Hi, I am trying to find out whether mysql has any support for xml? Can anyone help me please? Please cc replies to [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for any help Steve - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 01:21:52AM +, Peter Skipworth wrote: How is this superior to SQL? It includes the letters "XML", which, apparantly, can do everything from butter your toast to giving you an orgasm like no other you've had before. Don't you just *love* buzzwords! Sorry...I had to say it =) And no, I'm not at all the cynical type...not I! XML won't even switch on my computer (well... at least not for me ;-) ). It wont wash my car. It wont feed the cat. It wont give me an orgasm of any kind. But I find it usefull to _store_ structured data... Which, afterall, and DBMS is all about. It's not about specifying an query in XML - this _may_ be an side-effect, but there certainly should be alternatives (like some extended SQL). Greetings, Florian Pflug PS: I don't _know_ if you are the cynical type, but you certainly _sound_ like the cynical type... ;-) - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL (Long rant)
From: "Florian G. Pflug" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:31 AM I think XML support should not be just "sending the respone of an SQL-Queries written in a weird way as an XML Document as another weird XML Document to the client". It should make the DB-Server into a hugh archive of structured data. One need to rething the concept of tables, fields, record for this... Great idea - you go ahead with that, but not in MySql. A long time a go a couple of guys called Boyce and Codd developed the relational datamodel. It was a way of thinking data into structured entities called tuples and attributes (also called tables and fields). At that time it was a revolutionary idea, since it also gave way for things like relational integrity, views and such. A new way of thinking in contrast to file-based datamodels. One of the relational models strenghts were (and are) speed. The downside was the rather rigid way of organizing data. But the speed and flexibility when viewing and updating data outweighed the others. Some years later, somebody invented the objectoriented theories. In the early nineties OOA, OOD and OOP experienced a boom. That also resulted in the development of objectoriented storage, known as OODB (objectoriented databases). These were built from scratch, because the storage structure is much more complex than the relational model can comply with. Some tried to extend RDBMS' with OO capabilities but the results weren't good. And THAT is my point. I agree with all the people on the list who believe we should have a DBMS that can store data using the XML or SGML data model. But don't build it on top of a technology that works on completely different principles. Compare it with builing Windows95/98/Me on top of DOS. It may look good but it isn't the Real Deal (WindowsNT or the like) So start a new Open Source Project. Create a MyXML DBMS and do it from scratch. As a side note: OODBMS' haven't AFAIK been very popular in industrial-strength data environments. The reason is performance - or rather the lack of it. The data structures are simply too complicated to make fast queries. I have the feeling the same - Carsten - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Colin Faber wrote: Don't forget, Microsoft and Oracle are behind it so it _MUST_ be the greatest thing to come along since sliced bread. You folks need to keep in mind that with the microsoft system the XML layer IS NOT part of the database it self but an additional application which talks to the database via 'ODBC' so once again we have a situation where XML IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be part of the RDBMS, BUT is rather a middleware application to support users whom wish to use the XML system. I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but I feel compelled by the fact THAT IT'S STILL GOING ON. :(p Mysql is an RDBMS. RDBMS's have certain nice properties. You can make cartesian products of different data sets and search across them using a somewhat standardized query language, you can implement client applications which request data from a centralized server, stuff like that. XML is a formal set of rules for adding meta-data tags to character data. The reason not to "add XML support to Mysql" is THAT THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN THESE 2 CONCEPTS! A relational database is one thing, a set of valid XML documents is something completely different. Sure, you can store XML documents in a database (or you can use semantic tags to parse documents into fields for insertion into a table), or you can wrap XML tags around the data from each field you're retrieving from a database, but beyond this, I fail to see any connection between these 2 concepts beyond a lot of marketing blab which is completely meaningless. The fact that Microsoft and Oracle are behind it should be a tip off to put earplugs firmly in place in order to avoid wasting a lot of time drowning in hype. *** The nationwide online survey by Ohio-based Progressive Insurance found that 45 percent of married Americans ranked their cars as the thing they considered most important to them. In answer to separate questions regarding their preferences, only 6 percent rated their children as important and just 10 percent said their spouse or significant other was important to them, the survey said. The survey, conducted Jan. 5-15 and based on answers from 516 respondents, found that 84 percent of Americans love their cars while 32 percent have actually given their four-wheeled gas-guzzler a name. Seventeen percent of male participants planned to buy their vehicle a gift on Valentine's Day, the poll said. *** _Patrick Goetz _| ~-. Dept. of Mathematics \, *_} The University of Texas at Austin[EMAIL PROTECTED] \( Austin, Texas 78712-1084 Phone: (512) 232-2746 http://www.ma.utexas.edu/users/pgoetz - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Re: Because it _might_ be the great, stable and matura language for storing and querying data of tomorrow.. I think not. XML is a standard being pushed by a few big corporations, but lacks serious grassroots development, or even adequate support from recent browser versions. PHP, on the other hand, has major grassroots support, allows greater database connectivity than Perl can do, and does not require any browser plug-ins to work. You can't believe all the hype. On 27 Feb 2001, at 2:10, Florian G. Pflug wrote: On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:50:27PM -0600, Cal Evans wrote: How is this superior to SQL? Why replace a great, stable and mature language for querying databases with a verbose one? By your logic, why even replace traditional files (i mean those consisting of _real_ paper) with this computer crap? And why use PHP/Perl/Phyton instead of great, stable and matura C? Why do OO-Programming? Procedural programming is much more matura? Also, a database IS a huge archive of structured data. :) The kind of structure that an table (essentially n-tuples of values) can represent is not nearly as powerfull as an XML-Tree. Greetings, Florian Pflug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php John Jensen 520 Goshawk Court Bakersfield, CA 93309 661-833-2858 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
Florian, Without trying to be condescending, now you are just being silly. :) We replace traditional files with computer files because of (just to name a few) their ease of storage, replication, indexing and retrieval. We replace traditional accounting systems with computer based accounting systems because it saves us time and lets bean-counters slice and dice data in ways that are not possible with paper based systems. These switches came about because there were advantages to the new technologies that didn't exist with the old. Where are the advantage of an application talking it's RDBMS via XML as opposed to SQL? I use PHP because I like it...and it offers me the advantage of being able to quickly get the job done without the complexities of C++. There are things that PHP can't do; when I need them , I drop out of it and into another language. I do OO because it offers me a great advantage with respect to code reuse. I find that my % of code reuse is much higher in the systems I write in OO than in procedural. See the pattern here, these technologies are used because they offer an advantage. Cal http://www.calevans.com -Original Message- From: Florian G. Pflug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:10 PM To: Cal Evans Cc: Florian G. Pflug; Juergen Fey; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:50:27PM -0600, Cal Evans wrote: How is this superior to SQL? Why replace a great, stable and mature language for querying databases with a verbose one? Because it _might_ be the great, stable and matura language for storing and querying data of tomorrow.. By your logic, why even replace traditional files (i mean those consisting of _real_ paper) with this computer crap? And why use PHP/Perl/Phyton instead of great, stable and matura C? Why do OO-Programming? Procedural programming is much more matura? Also, a database IS a huge archive of structured data. :) The kind of structure that an table (essentially n-tuples of values) can represent is not nearly as powerfull as an XML-Tree. Greetings, Florian Pflug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
reHi Jan, Sorry, this one slipped under my radar. I wasn't ignoring you. Your arguments are well thought out but the fact of the matter is that until we change the major databases of the world from RDBMS to something more suited to XML then all you will ever be doing is providing an insulation layer. Yes, you may feel that you can create a richer query in XML but if you are talking to a RDBMS then someone or something has to translate that into SQL. If I so it myself instead of letting an XML translator built into the engine do it then I am in control and can optimize it the way I see fit. I'm not arguing against talking to applications in XML. I'm against building that additional layer into the database engine itself. It's code that many people don't want or need and for those that do want it, they can easily add it. As I've stated before, unlike the code bloat of Oracle and MS, with MySQL, if you want it, you have the option of adding it yourself without forcing it on others. You are correct that SQL is limited, but so are all other languages short of binary for communicating with computers. But as I stated in an earlier message, SQL gives me the most powerful way to-date of retrieving data from an RDBMS. XLM might hide the complexity of it but it will not be more powerful. Cal http://www.calevans.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jan Dvorak Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:58 AM To: Cal Evans Cc: Ed Carp; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL Cal, Cal Evans wrote: Glorious Sunday morning greetings to you Jan, No, XML is a format for 2 different applications, usually 2 totally separate applications, to be able to exchange data. It is not an appropriate choice for storing large amounts of data that will have to be queried. But the XML markup is just a manifestation of a deeper structure: trees. Trees are more general than tuples, a piece of XML can convey more information than a piece of a relational table. Nor is it an appropriate choice of language for talking to an RDBMS. Outside of the fact that it can be extremely verbose, ...it compresses magnificiently... we already have a perfectly good language for that, SQL. SQL is a language for committing data to a storage mechanism and retrieving the data back. It is superior to XML in those tasks. No. SQL is limited by the linear structure of tables. If you need to retrieve/store more complex information, you need to place several SELECTs/INSERTs in a row. Compare this to the rich structure of trees XML is based on. I know I can represent a Request for Quote in one XML document, but the same thing would take me five tables of a relational database. I know I can represent a Quote - which is a result of the Request for Quote query - with just one XML document, while the same thing would take me at least four relational tables. Again, if you have need to talk to your RDBMS via XML then a thin wrapper written in the language of your choice is the proper way to go. This allows you to do your job without bloating my application with unnecessary code. I'm already tired of thin wrappers. Plus they are not exactly efficient; the two overheads are in place and hogging: 1. The client/server communication overhead, even if we go locally thru a socket; 2. The SQL overhead of having to parse, understand and optimize a query can kill you on thousands of queries. As a rule, new functionalities in MySQL are optional. You don't have to enable them. And I also disagree with your statement that there is no difference between metadata and data. there most certainly is. But that's a discussion for another thread. It's always data. You call it metadata if it describes some other data. But on its own, it's data in the first place. humbly, Cal http://www.calevans.com Yours, Jan p.s. another reason not to include it is NOBODY wants to distract the MySQL coders from getting 4.0 frozen and out the door! :) Hey, eventually a good reason against XML in MySQL! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jan Dvorak Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 10:13 AM To: Ed Carp Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL Ed Carp wrote: Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Since XML is a way to exchange data...and it is protocol/platform indepdnent there is a very good reason to have XML docuemts going in and out the No, it's not. You store *data* in a database, *not* metadata. Do you understand the difference? There is no difference. What is metadata in one context, is data in another context. It's just a matter of your standpoint, which can change with time. XML is a format to store/exchange data. Jan Dvorak - Before posting, please check: http
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:37:10AM -0600, Cal Evans wrote: Glorious Sunday morning greetings to you Jan, No, XML is a format for 2 different applications, usually 2 totally separate applications, to be able to exchange data. It is not an appropriate choice for storing large amounts of data that will have to be queried. Nor is it an appropriate choice of language for talking to an RDBMS. Outside of the fact that it can be extremely verbose, we already have a perfectly good language for that, SQL. SQL is a language for committing data to a storage mechanism and retrieving the data back. It is superior to XML in those tasks. SQL ist tighty coupled with _relational_ database design. Which has its advantages, but also a lot of shortcomings. Every time I am dealing with a tree structure (Which is quite common - thing of document handling in folders, an access system using groups of groups, an webmailer usings folders, mails, attachments,) I either need to to a _LOT_ queries when parsing through the tree, or I need a very complex logic, and still quite a few queries. Most data people are dealing with is much more suited for XML than for an RDBMS. Again, if you have need to talk to your RDBMS via XML then a thin wrapper written in the language of your choice is the proper way to go. This allows you to do your job without bloating my application with unnecessary code. ironic Maybe my application does not need the power of SQL, but always does a full scan over the whole table, thus the only SQL-Statement used is "select * from table". I don't want my application to be bloadt with your bloody SQL, so lets just take the SQL-Parsed/Engine out of the DB, and make them a client-side library. Actually, I also do not need locking implemented in the db, since my application is just used by one person, so this should be handles by the client too. And all those datatypes in Mysql... Why do we need them... We just need BLOBs, we then can just create PHP-Objects with the necessary data, and store them in one big BLOB (of course after a call to serialize() ). /ironic And I also disagree with your statement that there is no difference between metadata and data. there most certainly is. But that's a discussion for another thread. Would you consider formating/layouting information in an document data or meta-data? I guess for an word processor (or even an text editor) ist meta-data. But for an DTP-Programm it sure is data. I want an DB which helps me storing structured data efficiently, and I think XML could be part of the solution. greetings, Florian Pflug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 12:50:13PM +0100, Juergen Fey wrote: Adding XML support to mySQL is no big deal if your`re talking about very structured data sets like Player FirstNameJoe/FirstName LastNameMontana/LastName Average Team="49ers"not bad at all/Average /Player If you got to handle a lot of these, than its easy to write an external XML I/O filter which even could handle the attributes. The result would be a simple flat Table. BUT if you`re talking unstructured XML data like typical articles, where the schema or DTD defines some sort of flexible substructures (that`s what i am dealing with a lot) then the relational database model won`t work too good, since you would need either to generate one TABLE per article plus using generated acess code (beans etc.) or you would have to link each elements content into specific tables ... costly if you got to retrieve stuff. I think XML support should not be just "sending the respone of an SQL-Queries written in a weird way as an XML Document as another weird XML Document to the client". It should make the DB-Server into a hugh archive of structured data. One need to rething the concept of tables, fields, record for this... Maybe one DB would just be one big XML-Document (of course stored not at a plain text file, but somehow more sophisticated - and indexed of course), and querieny would mean to look for a certain patters of tags... Maybe a queried could look like this. invoice total "18000" count min="15" item /item /count /invoice Meaning: look for invoices which a total price over 18000, and which have at least 15 items. Just my stupid ideas at 2:00 am in the morning.. but I think this would certainly make some peoples lives easier ;-)) greetings, Florian Pflug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
How is this superior to SQL? Why replace a great, stable and mature language for querying databases with a verbose one? Also, a database IS a huge archive of structured data. :) salutations, Cal http://www.calevans.com -Original Message- From: Florian G. Pflug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 6:31 PM To: Juergen Fey Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 12:50:13PM +0100, Juergen Fey wrote: Adding XML support to mySQL is no big deal if your`re talking about very structured data sets like Player FirstNameJoe/FirstName LastNameMontana/LastName Average Team="49ers"not bad at all/Average /Player If you got to handle a lot of these, than its easy to write an external XML I/O filter which even could handle the attributes. The result would be a simple flat Table. BUT if you`re talking unstructured XML data like typical articles, where the schema or DTD defines some sort of flexible substructures (that`s what i am dealing with a lot) then the relational database model won`t work too good, since you would need either to generate one TABLE per article plus using generated acess code (beans etc.) or you would have to link each elements content into specific tables ... costly if you got to retrieve stuff. I think XML support should not be just "sending the respone of an SQL-Queries written in a weird way as an XML Document as another weird XML Document to the client". It should make the DB-Server into a hugh archive of structured data. One need to rething the concept of tables, fields, record for this... Maybe one DB would just be one big XML-Document (of course stored not at a plain text file, but somehow more sophisticated - and indexed of course), and querieny would mean to look for a certain patters of tags... Maybe a queried could look like this. invoice total "18000" count min="15" item /item /count /invoice Meaning: look for invoices which a total price over 18000, and which have at least 15 items. Just my stupid ideas at 2:00 am in the morning.. but I think this would certainly make some peoples lives easier ;-)) greetings, Florian Pflug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:50:27PM -0600, Cal Evans wrote: How is this superior to SQL? Why replace a great, stable and mature language for querying databases with a verbose one? Because it _might_ be the great, stable and matura language for storing and querying data of tomorrow.. By your logic, why even replace traditional files (i mean those consisting of _real_ paper) with this computer crap? And why use PHP/Perl/Phyton instead of great, stable and matura C? Why do OO-Programming? Procedural programming is much more matura? Also, a database IS a huge archive of structured data. :) The kind of structure that an table (essentially n-tuples of values) can represent is not nearly as powerfull as an XML-Tree. Greetings, Florian Pflug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
How is this superior to SQL? It includes the letters "XML", which, apparantly, can do everything from butter your toast to giving you an orgasm like no other you've had before. Don't you just *love* buzzwords! Sorry...I had to say it =) And no, I'm not at all the cynical type...not I! P Why replace a great, stable and mature language for querying databases with a verbose one? Also, a database IS a huge archive of structured data. :) salutations, Cal http://www.calevans.com -Original Message- From: Florian G. Pflug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 6:31 PM To: Juergen Fey Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 12:50:13PM +0100, Juergen Fey wrote: Adding XML support to mySQL is no big deal if your`re talking about very structured data sets like Player FirstNameJoe/FirstName LastNameMontana/LastName Average Team="49ers"not bad at all/Average /Player If you got to handle a lot of these, than its easy to write an external XML I/O filter which even could handle the attributes. The result would be a simple flat Table. BUT if you`re talking unstructured XML data like typical articles, where the schema or DTD defines some sort of flexible substructures (that`s what i am dealing with a lot) then the relational database model won`t work too good, since you would need either to generate one TABLE per article plus using generated acess code (beans etc.) or you would have to link each elements content into specific tables ... costly if you got to retrieve stuff. I think XML support should not be just "sending the respone of an SQL-Queries written in a weird way as an XML Document as another weird XML Document to the client". It should make the DB-Server into a hugh archive of structured data. One need to rething the concept of tables, fields, record for this... Maybe one DB would just be one big XML-Document (of course stored not at a plain text file, but somehow more sophisticated - and indexed of course), and querieny would mean to look for a certain patters of tags... Maybe a queried could look like this. invoice total "18000" count min="15" item /item /count /invoice Meaning: look for invoices which a total price over 18000, and which have at least 15 items. Just my stupid ideas at 2:00 am in the morning.. but I think this would certainly make some peoples lives easier ;-)) greetings, Florian Pflug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Don't forget, Microsoft and Oracle are behind it so it _MUST_ be the greatest thing to come along since sliced bread. You folks need to keep in mind that with the microsoft system the XML layer IS NOT part of the database it self but an additional application which talks to the database via 'ODBC' so once again we have a situation where XML IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be part of the RDBMS, BUT is rather a middleware application to support users whom wish to use the XML system. Peter Skipworth wrote: How is this superior to SQL? It includes the letters "XML", which, apparantly, can do everything from butter your toast to giving you an orgasm like no other you've had before. Don't you just *love* buzzwords! Sorry...I had to say it =) And no, I'm not at all the cynical type...not I! P Why replace a great, stable and mature language for querying databases with a verbose one? Also, a database IS a huge archive of structured data. :) salutations, Cal http://www.calevans.com -Original Message- From: Florian G. Pflug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 6:31 PM To: Juergen Fey Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 12:50:13PM +0100, Juergen Fey wrote: Adding XML support to mySQL is no big deal if your`re talking about very structured data sets like Player FirstNameJoe/FirstName LastNameMontana/LastName Average Team="49ers"not bad at all/Average /Player If you got to handle a lot of these, than its easy to write an external XML I/O filter which even could handle the attributes. The result would be a simple flat Table. BUT if you`re talking unstructured XML data like typical articles, where the schema or DTD defines some sort of flexible substructures (that`s what i am dealing with a lot) then the relational database model won`t work too good, since you would need either to generate one TABLE per article plus using generated acess code (beans etc.) or you would have to link each elements content into specific tables ... costly if you got to retrieve stuff. I think XML support should not be just "sending the respone of an SQL-Queries written in a weird way as an XML Document as another weird XML Document to the client". It should make the DB-Server into a hugh archive of structured data. One need to rething the concept of tables, fields, record for this... Maybe one DB would just be one big XML-Document (of course stored not at a plain text file, but somehow more sophisticated - and indexed of course), and querieny would mean to look for a certain patters of tags... Maybe a queried could look like this. invoice total "18000" count min="15" item /item /count /invoice Meaning: look for invoices which a total price over 18000, and which have at least 15 items. Just my stupid ideas at 2:00 am in the morning.. but I think this would certainly make some peoples lives easier ;-)) greetings, Florian Pflug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Ed Carp wrote: Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Since XML is a way to exchange data...and it is protocol/platform indepdnent there is a very good reason to have XML docuemts going in and out the No, it's not. You store *data* in a database, *not* metadata. Do you understand the difference? There is no difference. What is metadata in one context, is data in another context. It's just a matter of your standpoint, which can change with time. XML is a format to store/exchange data. Jan Dvorak - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
Glorious Sunday morning greetings to you Jan, No, XML is a format for 2 different applications, usually 2 totally separate applications, to be able to exchange data. It is not an appropriate choice for storing large amounts of data that will have to be queried. Nor is it an appropriate choice of language for talking to an RDBMS. Outside of the fact that it can be extremely verbose, we already have a perfectly good language for that, SQL. SQL is a language for committing data to a storage mechanism and retrieving the data back. It is superior to XML in those tasks. Again, if you have need to talk to your RDBMS via XML then a thin wrapper written in the language of your choice is the proper way to go. This allows you to do your job without bloating my application with unnecessary code. And I also disagree with your statement that there is no difference between metadata and data. there most certainly is. But that's a discussion for another thread. humbly, Cal http://www.calevans.com p.s. another reason not to include it is NOBODY wants to distract the MySQL coders from getting 4.0 frozen and out the door! :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jan Dvorak Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 10:13 AM To: Ed Carp Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL Ed Carp wrote: Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Since XML is a way to exchange data...and it is protocol/platform indepdnent there is a very good reason to have XML docuemts going in and out the No, it's not. You store *data* in a database, *not* metadata. Do you understand the difference? There is no difference. What is metadata in one context, is data in another context. It's just a matter of your standpoint, which can change with time. XML is a format to store/exchange data. Jan Dvorak - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
At 10:37 AM -0600 2/25/01, Cal Evans wrote: Glorious Sunday morning greetings to you Jan, No, XML is a format for 2 different applications, usually 2 totally separate applications, to be able to exchange data. It is not an appropriate choice for storing large amounts of data that will have to be queried. Nor is it an appropriate choice of language for talking to an RDBMS. Outside of the fact that it can be extremely verbose, we already have a perfectly good language for that, SQL. SQL is a language for committing data to a storage mechanism and retrieving the data back. It is superior to XML in those tasks. Is anybody on this thread really rationally suggesting using XML instead of SQL? I hope not. It would no longer be an SQL database. Of course SQL is the language for committing data to the storage mechanism. What the data consists of is another matter. If some of my data is a paragraph of text of which some of the words may be bold, others italics and so on, then I will want to make this formatting information part of my data by using XML, RTF or some other tagged structure. If anyone is suggesting that I shouldn't ever do this, but only use raw data, then they are nuts. On the other hand if its being argued that the formatting information should be separated from the raw data because you may want to look at it in both forms, I can buy that, but the formatting information is still data, still stored in the database, maybe just in a separate field if you like. If anyone is arguing that the formatting information should be stored in some other database, they are also nuts. Mike - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Michael, Is anybody on this thread really rationally suggesting using XML instead of SQL? I hope not. It would no longer be an SQL database. Of course SQL is the language for committing data to the storage mechanism. What the data consists of is another matter. I'm suggesting there is a good reason for allowing access to a database in XML in parallel to SQL. I don't care it wouldn't be an SQL database. Please, read on. If some of my data is a paragraph of text of which some of the words may be bold, others italics and so on, then I will want to make this formatting information part of my data by using XML, RTF or some other tagged structure. If anyone is suggesting that I shouldn't ever do this, but only use raw data, then they are nuts. On the other hand if its being argued that the formatting information should be separated from the raw data because you may want to look at it in both forms, I can buy that, but the formatting information is still data, still stored in the database, maybe just in a separate field if you like. If anyone is arguing that the formatting information should be stored in some other database, they are also nuts. You shouldn't forget that formatting markup is just one use of XML. The other one, perhaps the by far the most progressive one, being semantics markup. To see the difference, let's take the example of an invoice. If it's represented in a formatting-driven markup, it goes like: h1Invoice no. 1/2001/h1 p iCustomer:/ibr / MathAn Praha, Ltd.br / Dlazdena 4br / Prahabr / CZ-11000br / Czech Republicbr / Europe /p table tr thItem #/th thItem description/th thQuantity/th thUnit price/th thAmount/th /tr tr td1/td tdMySQL license/td td1/td td200 USD/td td200 USD/td /tr tr td2/td tdMySQL e-mail support/td td1 year/td td170 EURO/year/td tdEURO 170/td /tr tr th colspan="4"Total/th tdb342.45 USD/b/td /tr /table That was HTML, purely presentation. But machines will also need to understand invoices. The same invoice could be written as: invoice id="invoice:1/2001" customer party company-nameMathAn Praha, Ltd./company-name address type="street" site="HQ" address-linestreetDlazdena/street house-number4/house-number/address-line address-linezip-codeCZ-11000/zip-code cityPraha/city/address-line address-linecountryCzech Republic/country, continentEurope/continent/address-line /address /party customer invoice-lines invoice-line order="1" item code="124897435" description xml:lang="en"MySQL license/description description xml:lang="cs"Licence MySQL/description /item quantity units="piece"1/quantity unit-price units="USD/piece"200/unit-price amount units="USD"200/amount /invoice-line invoice-line order="2" item code="124897439" description xml:lang="en"MySQL basic e-mail support/description description xml:lang="cs"Zakladni e-mailova podpora MySQL/description /item quantity units="piece/year"1/quantity unit-price units="EUR/piece*year"170/unit-price amount units="EUR"170/amount /invoice-line /invoice-lines invoice-total total units="USD"342.654/total /invoice-total /invoice O.k., a real invoice will have a bit more information in it, but that's not important here. Now, take the data-oriented markup. To represent the same information in a relational database, you'll need several tables: Invoice, InvoiceLine, Item, ItemDescription, Language(a look-up table), Unit (another look-up table), Party, and Address. You can parse the document and isolate every XML element value and every XML attribute and insert them into appropriate columns of the tables. Probably a glue script to do this is the best choice today. Likewise, you can take the data stored in the tables of the RDBMS and run "a few" selects on them and combine the results in such a way that the XML document for the invoice comes to existence. Again, a glue script is a clear candidate to do the job. Now, I'm claiming that in a future that's not at all distant, the need to do these conversions more and more often will lead to the following consequences: 1. The XML - RDBMS translation will be understood theoretically and a formal language to describe the mapping will arise. 2. DBMS's will be incorporating the translation functionality, for efficiency and ease-of-use of the XML side of a DBMS will get focus. The XML interface will call the internal storage API of the DBMS, not any SQL tier. 3. With XML becoming more and more popular, data structures we'll be getting from a DBMS will move from linear tables to trees. Even internally, the database engines will start storing data in something else than tables. 4. The SQL interface will continue to exist and work, but it will not be the only interface to the data in the database. Alternative interfaces will rise, some of which may be based on XML. Michael, admit that an XML interface to database would give additional
Re: XML support under mySQL
Cal, Cal Evans wrote: Glorious Sunday morning greetings to you Jan, No, XML is a format for 2 different applications, usually 2 totally separate applications, to be able to exchange data. It is not an appropriate choice for storing large amounts of data that will have to be queried. But the XML markup is just a manifestation of a deeper structure: trees. Trees are more general than tuples, a piece of XML can convey more information than a piece of a relational table. Nor is it an appropriate choice of language for talking to an RDBMS. Outside of the fact that it can be extremely verbose, ...it compresses magnificiently... we already have a perfectly good language for that, SQL. SQL is a language for committing data to a storage mechanism and retrieving the data back. It is superior to XML in those tasks. No. SQL is limited by the linear structure of tables. If you need to retrieve/store more complex information, you need to place several SELECTs/INSERTs in a row. Compare this to the rich structure of trees XML is based on. I know I can represent a Request for Quote in one XML document, but the same thing would take me five tables of a relational database. I know I can represent a Quote - which is a result of the Request for Quote query - with just one XML document, while the same thing would take me at least four relational tables. Again, if you have need to talk to your RDBMS via XML then a thin wrapper written in the language of your choice is the proper way to go. This allows you to do your job without bloating my application with unnecessary code. I'm already tired of thin wrappers. Plus they are not exactly efficient; the two overheads are in place and hogging: 1. The client/server communication overhead, even if we go locally thru a socket; 2. The SQL overhead of having to parse, understand and optimize a query can kill you on thousands of queries. As a rule, new functionalities in MySQL are optional. You don't have to enable them. And I also disagree with your statement that there is no difference between metadata and data. there most certainly is. But that's a discussion for another thread. It's always data. You call it metadata if it describes some other data. But on its own, it's data in the first place. humbly, Cal http://www.calevans.com Yours, Jan p.s. another reason not to include it is NOBODY wants to distract the MySQL coders from getting 4.0 frozen and out the door! :) Hey, eventually a good reason against XML in MySQL! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jan Dvorak Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 10:13 AM To: Ed Carp Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL Ed Carp wrote: Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Since XML is a way to exchange data...and it is protocol/platform indepdnent there is a very good reason to have XML docuemts going in and out the No, it's not. You store *data* in a database, *not* metadata. Do you understand the difference? There is no difference. What is metadata in one context, is data in another context. It's just a matter of your standpoint, which can change with time. XML is a format to store/exchange data. Jan Dvorak - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
I agree with Jeremy and Colin. Its one thing to add functionalities, in terms of modules and interfaces, but adding to the core program is limited in it practicality, because it will just slow down execution or load-time or both. This penalizes users who don't happen to need the capabilities that you want added, and those who find that their old hardware is suddenly made inadequate by the latest upgrade. This has been one of my long-standing complaints with Microsoft. One of my favorite Microsoft programs was the Cardfile that came with Win3.1. That funcftionality got incorporated into Outlook, but Outlook was a clumsy monstrosity by comparison, slow to load, too many steps to get at what you want, and I couldn't have multiple copies in memory with different lists on them. I still have Cardfile, but now, Win98 won't let me have more than one copy in memory. This is not progress; this is an imposition. I would rather see smaller seperate programs better integrated with each other, instead of a few clumsy monster, do-everything, programs. On 22 Feb 2001, at 23:39, Jeremy D. Zawodny wrote: On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 08:26:08AM +0100, Gorjan Todorovski wrote: To Ed: Why be so negative about adding new features to the DB server? Why not make things easier and make the DB more flexible by supporting more standards for TRANSPORTING data. I'm not Ed, but... The answer is simple: it doesn't belong as a core service in the database server [in the opinions of several folks, including Ed]. As an add-on tool, sure. If someone writes a tool which turns MySQL data into some XML format on the fly, great. Or maybe the logic can be integrated into the client libraries. But I really don't think that the mysqld process show know how to do it. Then again, it wouldn't be HARD to do. I just hope then if it happens, it is a compile-time default so that I can disable it on my servers. :-) Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 328-7878Fax: (408) 530-5454 Cell: (408) 439-9951 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php John Jensen 520 Goshawk Court Bakersfield, CA 93309 661-833-2858 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
*big snip* I agree with Cal, the XML module should really be sperated from the RDMB. XML is really great but, lets face it not everyone is going to use it so why force it down thier troat?. The really great thing about Open Source is that you do have a choice (unlike MS , Oracle). :) You have to choice to install external XML modules if you wish, if not why would you use it? I'm sure if you write the XML modules as an extension to MySQL in C or C++, it'll be just as fast as if it is built in. Not to maintion the fact that it'll be far easier of MySQL developer to put in other really "useful" RDMB related features like ForeinKeys etc etc. instead of "cool" but not critical features XML. And the code base for MySQL wouldn't be bloated either which means we as the users won't have to download 200MB RDMB servers :):) My $0.02 But you've yet to make a case for extending a database engine to do something it's not originally designed to do and something that I argue does not belong in a RDBMS engine. First, while I agree that XML is a great solution for 2 applications to exchange data, it is not a - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: RE: XML support under mySQL
Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Some relational databases return results in XML format. And operating systems have been written in Java and Perl. So? Just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should*. Suppose I want to translate the output to something else. Now I'm stuck - I have to strip off the XML. *MUCH* cleaner to have the database return just data - then you can use something else to wrap the data in anything you want - XML, HTML, PHP, whatever. We use this approach in Escapade - it outputs just data - you decide how you want it wrapped. The idea of decoupling data and metadata is a powerful one and has strong, compelling arguments in its favor - ane one usually taught in first-year computer science classes. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
XML will become a common and powerful way to express/exchange data on the web. I hope MySQL decides to go along for the ride. This is all fine and good, but why does MySQL itself have to do this? We don't want Microsoft and Oracle to take over the world, do we? :) Their popularity does not imply sound design. Just that they have superior marketing. My naive understanding is that it would be effortless to write a module in perl that translates the data returned by the DBI to XML. I'm not a perl expert so I cannot speak to that. However, I doubt that it's effortless or trivial. Why would it be easier to write said layer if it was inside the DBMS instead of outside? -- Michael Bacarella [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Staff / System Development, New York Connect.Net, Ltd. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
Yes, Ed is correct. You store data, but it is the trasport of that data that makes XML look good. To me, using XML to transport the data is like using recordsets in Microsoft/ADO. - / Rick Mehalick Senior Consultant / Shell Services International SSI-GPAX / Phone: 281-544-5092(WCK) / Fax:281-544-2646(WCK) / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -Original Message- From: Ed Carp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 6:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Since XML is a way to exchange data...and it is protocol/platform indepdnent there is a very good reason to have XML docuemts going in and out the No, it's not. You store *data* in a database, *not* metadata. Do you understand the difference? -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: RE: XML support under mySQL
For some reason I don't think this was understood of what I said earlier. THE "DATABASE" ISN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR XML But, just because the database isn't responsible doesn't mean that the application is responsible for generating XML. Due to the fact I don't have my computer science degree like Ed Carp said we all should. I'm going to claim stupidity and yet still say my $0.02. We all know that the database is not responsible, nor should it be responsible for only making it's data accessible through XML. This is not at all what people need, nor are they asking for this. All people want is a way to put this wrapper on MySQL to be able to send queries to and have the output be in XML. There is no problem with this, nor should there be months of debate on whether or not this is a database function because it's obviously not. What people want is to have MySQL, an Open Source Database that is pretty damn good, take the initiative and make this wrapper to distribute with MySQL. Now if someone else wants to do this that's no big deal, let's just give MySQL a copy so that they distribute it with MySQL. You can't preach to me about how hard this is. If it wasn't for the fact I've been stuck working on Microsoft the past year I would do it in a couple days, I've already dome similar to create an XML feed manually for Microsoft SQL using ASP. Aaron Weiker -Original Message- From: Ed Carp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 7:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: XML support under mySQL Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Some relational databases return results in XML format. And operating systems have been written in Java and Perl. So? Just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should*. Suppose I want to translate the output to something else. Now I'm stuck - I have to strip off the XML. *MUCH* cleaner to have the database return just data - then you can use something else to wrap the data in anything you want - XML, HTML, PHP, whatever. We use this approach in Escapade - it outputs just data - you decide how you want it wrapped. The idea of decoupling data and metadata is a powerful one and has strong, compelling arguments in its favor - ane one usually taught in first-year computer science classes. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: RE: XML support under mySQL
Top of the morning to ya Aaron, 1: Ed did not suggest that everyone has to have a CS degree. Not defending Ed because based on his posts this morning, someone pissed in his Cheerios but he simply stated that people should be a little more educated about the subject before posting. 2: The discussion started with someone stating that MySQL should be extended to accept XML statements, not a wrapper. I think everyone against embedding XML in MySQL has advocated a wrapper. 3: Never claim stupidity, it gives flamers more ammo to work with. :) Cal http://www.calevans.com -Original Message- From: Aaron Weiker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 8:00 AM To: 'Ed Carp'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: XML support under mySQL For some reason I don't think this was understood of what I said earlier. THE "DATABASE" ISN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR XML But, just because the database isn't responsible doesn't mean that the application is responsible for generating XML. Due to the fact I don't have my computer science degree like Ed Carp said we all should. I'm going to claim stupidity and yet still say my $0.02. We all know that the database is not responsible, nor should it be responsible for only making it's data accessible through XML. This is not at all what people need, nor are they asking for this. All people want is a way to put this wrapper on MySQL to be able to send queries to and have the output be in XML. There is no problem with this, nor should there be months of debate on whether or not this is a database function because it's obviously not. What people want is to have MySQL, an Open Source Database that is pretty damn good, take the initiative and make this wrapper to distribute with MySQL. Now if someone else wants to do this that's no big deal, let's just give MySQL a copy so that they distribute it with MySQL. You can't preach to me about how hard this is. If it wasn't for the fact I've been stuck working on Microsoft the past year I would do it in a couple days, I've already dome similar to create an XML feed manually for Microsoft SQL using ASP. Aaron Weiker -Original Message- From: Ed Carp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 7:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: XML support under mySQL Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Some relational databases return results in XML format. And operating systems have been written in Java and Perl. So? Just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should*. Suppose I want to translate the output to something else. Now I'm stuck - I have to strip off the XML. *MUCH* cleaner to have the database return just data - then you can use something else to wrap the data in anything you want - XML, HTML, PHP, whatever. We use this approach in Escapade - it outputs just data - you decide how you want it wrapped. The idea of decoupling data and metadata is a powerful one and has strong, compelling arguments in its favor - ane one usually taught in first-year computer science classes. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Actually, in a relational database, you do store metadata in the database, along with the data it describes. - Original Message - From: "Ed Carp" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 7:18 AM Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Since XML is a way to exchange data...and it is protocol/platform indepdnent there is a very good reason to have XML docuemts going in and out the No, it's not. You store *data* in a database, *not* metadata. Do you understand the difference? -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: RE: RE: XML support under mySQL
Cal Evans ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Top of the morning to ya Aaron, 1: Ed did not suggest that everyone has to have a CS degree. Not defending Ed because based on his posts this morning, someone pissed in his Cheerios but he simply stated that people should be a little more educated about the subject before posting. Thanks, Cal. Maybe I shouldn't post in the morning, while my blood sugar is down, huh? g 2: The discussion started with someone stating that MySQL should be extended to accept XML statements, not a wrapper. I think everyone against embedding XML in MySQL has advocated a wrapper. Exactly. Wrappers are (1) easy to write, at least easier than hacking on MySQL source, (2) allow you to turn raw data into whatever you want to, and (3) allow you to debug problems much more easily, since if the bug isn't in MySQL, it has to be in your wrapper ;) -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Jim Gillaspy @ bellsouth.net ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Actually, in a relational database, you do store metadata in the database, along with the data it describes. Huh? Can you be more explicit? Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here... -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
To Ed: Why be so negative about adding new features to the DB server? Why not make things easier and make the DB more flexible by supporting more standards for TRANSPORTING data. About the education I think that is not the problem here since the guy that posted the thing about XML support in mySQL has Master's degree in computer science and begins a doctorate thesis in database systems...so :) on 2/22/01 3:34 PM, Cal Evans at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top of the morning to ya Aaron, 1: Ed did not suggest that everyone has to have a CS degree. Not defending Ed because based on his posts this morning, someone pissed in his Cheerios but he simply stated that people should be a little more educated about the subject before posting. 2: The discussion started with someone stating that MySQL should be extended to accept XML statements, not a wrapper. I think everyone against embedding XML in MySQL has advocated a wrapper. 3: Never claim stupidity, it gives flamers more ammo to work with. :) Cal http://www.calevans.com -Original Message- From: Aaron Weiker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 8:00 AM To: 'Ed Carp'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: XML support under mySQL For some reason I don't think this was understood of what I said earlier. THE "DATABASE" ISN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR XML But, just because the database isn't responsible doesn't mean that the application is responsible for generating XML. Due to the fact I don't have my computer science degree like Ed Carp said we all should. I'm going to claim stupidity and yet still say my $0.02. We all know that the database is not responsible, nor should it be responsible for only making it's data accessible through XML. This is not at all what people need, nor are they asking for this. All people want is a way to put this wrapper on MySQL to be able to send queries to and have the output be in XML. There is no problem with this, nor should there be months of debate on whether or not this is a database function because it's obviously not. What people want is to have MySQL, an Open Source Database that is pretty damn good, take the initiative and make this wrapper to distribute with MySQL. Now if someone else wants to do this that's no big deal, let's just give MySQL a copy so that they distribute it with MySQL. You can't preach to me about how hard this is. If it wasn't for the fact I've been stuck working on Microsoft the past year I would do it in a couple days, I've already dome similar to create an XML feed manually for Microsoft SQL using ASP. Aaron Weiker -Original Message- From: Ed Carp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 7:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: XML support under mySQL Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Some relational databases return results in XML format. And operating systems have been written in Java and Perl. So? Just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should*. Suppose I want to translate the output to something else. Now I'm stuck - I have to strip off the XML. *MUCH* cleaner to have the database return just data - then you can use something else to wrap the data in anything you want - XML, HTML, PHP, whatever. We use this approach in Escapade - it outputs just data - you decide how you want it wrapped. The idea of dec oupling data and metadata is a powerful one and has strong, compelling arguments in its favor - ane one usually taught in first-year computer science classes. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscri
Re: XML support under mySQL
Gorjan, Don't you think it would be a better idea to comply with ANSI SQL92 before we start talking about adding features that are really not needed nor critical? Gorjan Todorovski wrote: To Ed: Why be so negative about adding new features to the DB server? Why not make things easier and make the DB more flexible by supporting more standards for TRANSPORTING data. About the education I think that is not the problem here since the guy that posted the thing about XML support in mySQL has Master's degree in computer science and begins a doctorate thesis in database systems...so :) on 2/22/01 3:34 PM, Cal Evans at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top of the morning to ya Aaron, 1: Ed did not suggest that everyone has to have a CS degree. Not defending Ed because based on his posts this morning, someone pissed in his Cheerios but he simply stated that people should be a little more educated about the subject before posting. 2: The discussion started with someone stating that MySQL should be extended to accept XML statements, not a wrapper. I think everyone against embedding XML in MySQL has advocated a wrapper. 3: Never claim stupidity, it gives flamers more ammo to work with. :) Cal http://www.calevans.com -Original Message- From: Aaron Weiker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 8:00 AM To: 'Ed Carp'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: XML support under mySQL For some reason I don't think this was understood of what I said earlier. THE "DATABASE" ISN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR XML But, just because the database isn't responsible doesn't mean that the application is responsible for generating XML. Due to the fact I don't have my computer science degree like Ed Carp said we all should. I'm going to claim stupidity and yet still say my $0.02. We all know that the database is not responsible, nor should it be responsible for only making it's data accessible through XML. This is not at all what people need, nor are they asking for this. All people want is a way to put this wrapper on MySQL to be able to send queries to and have the output be in XML. There is no problem with this, nor should there be months of debate on whether or not this is a database function because it's obviously not. What people want is to have MySQL, an Open Source Database that is pretty damn good, take the initiative and make this wrapper to distribute with MySQL. Now if someone else wants to do this that's no big deal, let's just give MySQL a copy so that they distribute it with MySQL. You can't preach to me about how hard this is. If it wasn't for the fact I've been stuck working on Microsoft the past year I would do it in a couple days, I've already dome similar to create an XML feed manually for Microsoft SQL using ASP. Aaron Weiker -Original Message- From: Ed Carp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 7:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: XML support under mySQL Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Some relational databases return results in XML format. And operating systems have been written in Java and Perl. So? Just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should*. Suppose I want to translate the output to something else. Now I'm stuck - I have to strip off the XML. *MUCH* cleaner to have the database return just data - then you can use something else to wrap the data in anything you want - XML, HTML, PHP, whatever. We use this approach in Escapade - it outputs just data - you decide how you want it wrapped. The idea of dec oupling data and metadata is a powerful one and has strong, compelling arguments in its favor - ane one usually taught in first-year computer science classes. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsub
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 08:26:08AM +0100, Gorjan Todorovski wrote: To Ed: Why be so negative about adding new features to the DB server? Why not make things easier and make the DB more flexible by supporting more standards for TRANSPORTING data. I'm not Ed, but... The answer is simple: it doesn't belong as a core service in the database server [in the opinions of several folks, including Ed]. As an add-on tool, sure. If someone writes a tool which turns MySQL data into some XML format on the fly, great. Or maybe the logic can be integrated into the client libraries. But I really don't think that the mysqld process show know how to do it. Then again, it wouldn't be HARD to do. I just hope then if it happens, it is a compile-time default so that I can disable it on my servers. :-) Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 328-7878Fax: (408) 530-5454 Cell: (408) 439-9951 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
By support for XML I mean that u can insert XML documents directly in the database, of course u need to have the table properlu craeted first. Also it should be possible to retreive data in XML format from some table. This is supported in Oracle 8i for eaxmple "Jeremy D. Zawodny" wrote: On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:38:23AM +0100, Gorjan Todorovski wrote: Is there support for XML in mySQL? What does your question mean? XML is about representing data in a structured and easily interchanged fashion. MySQL is all about *storing* and *retrieving* data which is stored in a normalized, relational model. Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 328-7878Fax: (408) 530-5454 Cell: (408) 439-9951 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:18:49AM +0100, Gorjan Todorovski wrote: By support for XML I mean that u can insert XML documents directly in the database, of course u need to have the table properlu craeted first. Also it should be possible to retreive data in XML format from some table. This is supported in Oracle 8i for eaxmple You cannot do that with MySQL. But that's probably a philosophical difference. Many would argue that the database server has no business dealing with XML. That should be the job of the program which is putting the data into the database... Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 328-7878Fax: (408) 530-5454 Cell: (408) 439-9951 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Have you tried the -H flag to the mysql client ? The client at least can produce HTML. "Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX" wrote: The database does it. It is my understanding that MSSQL will return the results of a query in XML. The idea, as I understand it, is to create web pages with XML data. (I attended a XML class where we did this) Since the web page contains code to call the database and the result is in XML, then it should be easier to present the page. (Note: some browsers can already do this with native XML) Another reason, maybe even a better one, is that XML is less database specific. So too will be the data. So the result of a query is no longer tied to the database that produced it. Rick - / Rick Mehalick Senior Consultant / Shell Services International SSI-GPAX / Phone: 281-544-5092(WCK) / Fax:281-544-2646(WCK) / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -Original Message- From: Jeremy D. Zawodny [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:20 PM To: Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX Cc: 'Ed Carp'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:49:40AM -0600, Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX wrote: Some relational databases return results in XML format. The *database* does that, or an add-on query tool does that? It'd be trivial to implement an add-on for mysql (xmlmysql, a command-line tool maybe) which would do it. But making the database server itself do it seems rather, uh... strange. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I just don't see the utility in it. Can someone who would use such a feature explain how and why? Seeing as how folks ask about this once in a while, I'm more than a bit curious at this point. Thanks, Jeremy -- - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:26:56PM -0500, Michael Bacarella wrote: Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Is there support for XML in mySQL? XML will become a common and powerful way to express/exchange data on the web. I hope MySQL decides to go along for the ride. This is all fine and good, but why does MySQL itself have to do this? We don't want Microsoft and Oracle to take over the world, do we? :) My naive understanding is that it would be effortless to write a module in perl that translates the data returned by the DBI to XML. I'm not a perl expert so I cannot speak to that. However, I doubt that it's effortless or trivial. -- Regards, Doug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
Some relational databases return results in XML format. - / Rick Mehalick Senior Consultant / Shell Services International SSI-GPAX / Phone: 281-544-5092(WCK) / Fax:281-544-2646(WCK) / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -Original Message- From: Ed Carp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 2:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Is there support for XML in mySQL? No la comprende, senor - XML is a markup language, MySQL is a database. What does ne have to do with the other? -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
One thing I want. A Java way to save a data structure and recover it later. Easy in perl, not so easy in Java. But XML would be a great way to do it in Java. Eric At 10:42 AM 2/22/01 +1000, Opec Kemp \( Ozemail \) wrote: *big snip* I agree with Cal, the XML module should really be sperated from the RDMB. XML is really great but, lets face it not everyone is going to use it so why force it down thier troat?. The really great thing about Open Source is that you do have a choice (unlike MS , Oracle). :) You have to choice to install external XML modules if you wish, if not why would you use it? I'm sure if you write the XML modules as an extension to MySQL in C or C++, it'll be just as fast as if it is built in. Not to maintion the fact that it'll be far easier of MySQL developer to put in other really "useful" RDMB related features like ForeinKeys etc etc. instead of "cool" but not critical features XML. And the code base for MySQL wouldn't be bloated either which means we as the users won't have to download 200MB RDMB servers :):) My $0.02 But you've yet to make a case for extending a database engine to do something it's not originally designed to do and something that I argue does not belong in a RDBMS engine. First, while I agree that XML is a great solution for 2 applications to exchange data, it is not a - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php Frazier Consulting http://www.kwinternet.com/eric (250) 655 - 9513 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: RE: XML support under mySQL
Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Another reason, maybe even a better one, is that XML is less database specific. So too will be the data. So the result of a query is no longer tied to the database that produced it. Untrue. Data is data. The result of a query should *never* be tied to the database - if it is, you're doing something *very* wrong. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: RE: XML support under mySQL
Aaron Weiker ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: application interface. XML is this magic layer in the middle that each party No it's not. XML is simply an emerging standard to describe metadata. No magic involved. about to get this Email). The solution would be to have this other middle tier application be built, doesn't really matter what language but the requirement is to have it be able to work with XML and also with MySQL (or so be it, another database). It isn't MySQL's responsibility to do this, however it would be great if they could, would definably help MySQL be able to compete feature to feature against the other DB's that are out there. No, it wouldn't, because it's pretty trivial to write something that would wrap XML around data. Why do people constantly try to tie presentation layer stuff to either data or a particular database? It's evil to do so - and if I have to explain why, maybe it's time folks went back to school to take a computer science course or two and learn all about decoupled systems and why tightly coupled systems like this are *evil*. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Jeremy D. Zawodny ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:18:49AM +0100, Gorjan Todorovski wrote: By support for XML I mean that u can insert XML documents directly in the database, of course u need to have the table properlu craeted first. Also it should be possible to retreive data in XML format from some table. This is supported in Oracle 8i for eaxmple You cannot do that with MySQL. MySQL doesn't understannd XML (nor should it) - but inserting a document into a table as data is trivial. Inserting an XML document as metadata is a whole 'nother kettle of fish - and one, IMO, for which MySQL should never be hacked up to do. It would make more sense to write a thin layer in C to do such a thing. But that's probably a philosophical difference. Many would argue that the database server has no business dealing with XML. That should be the job of the program which is putting the data into the database... I agree completely. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Is there support for XML in mySQL? This is a reasonable inquiry. MS-SQLSever 2k and Oracle are both implementing a lot of XML functionality in their RDBMS's. Oracle is ahead of SQLServer, I believe. Like it or not, these two RDBMS's are very influential with how the web/db community create applications. An Oracle/Java web combination is a powerful, object-oriented way for web app to speak to a database. When XML browser support matures, the web developer will be able to "easily" separate the db content from the display with style-sheets. XML will become a common and powerful way to express/exchange data on the web. I hope MySQL decides to go along for the ride. -- Regards, Doug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
For someone like my self having a tool to export via XML is bloatware, Any XML handling should be delt with in the milddleware, where it will be utilized NOT the database it self. Michael Bacarella wrote: Gorjan Todorovski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Is there support for XML in mySQL? XML will become a common and powerful way to express/exchange data on the web. I hope MySQL decides to go along for the ride. This is all fine and good, but why does MySQL itself have to do this? My naive understanding is that it would be effortless to write a module in perl that translates the data returned by the DBI to XML. -- Michael Bacarella [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Staff / System Development, New York Connect.Net, Ltd. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: XML support under mySQL
The database does it. It is my understanding that MSSQL will return the results of a query in XML. The idea, as I understand it, is to create web pages with XML data. (I attended a XML class where we did this) Since the web page contains code to call the database and the result is in XML, then it should be easier to present the page. (Note: some browsers can already do this with native XML) Another reason, maybe even a better one, is that XML is less database specific. So too will be the data. So the result of a query is no longer tied to the database that produced it. Rick - / Rick Mehalick Senior Consultant / Shell Services International SSI-GPAX / Phone: 281-544-5092(WCK) / Fax:281-544-2646(WCK) / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -Original Message- From: Jeremy D. Zawodny [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:20 PM To: Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX Cc: 'Ed Carp'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XML support under mySQL On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:49:40AM -0600, Mehalick, Richard RE SSI-GRAX wrote: Some relational databases return results in XML format. The *database* does that, or an add-on query tool does that? It'd be trivial to implement an add-on for mysql (xmlmysql, a command-line tool maybe) which would do it. But making the database server itself do it seems rather, uh... strange. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I just don't see the utility in it. Can someone who would use such a feature explain how and why? Seeing as how folks ask about this once in a while, I'm more than a bit curious at this point. Thanks, Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 328-7878Fax: (408) 530-5454 Cell: (408) 439-9951 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: RE: XML support under mySQL
Eric Frazier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: One thing I want. A Java way to save a data structure and recover it later. Easy in perl, not so easy in Java. But XML would be a great way to do it in Java. Why Java? That's like going to a gas station and saying "I want gas specifically formulated for my 1998 Ford Taurus". If Java doesn't do what you want, maybe it's time to look at other options. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:22:31PM -0500, Michael Bacarella wrote: XML will become a common and powerful way to express/exchange data on the web. I hope MySQL decides to go along for the ride. This is all fine and good, but why does MySQL itself have to do this? We don't want Microsoft and Oracle to take over the world, do we? :) Their popularity does not imply sound design. Just that they have superior marketing. SQLServer and Oracle both have superior functionality to MySQL. I'm not enough of an expert to impune their design. They do, however, get the job done quite nicely. My naive understanding is that it would be effortless to write a module in perl that translates the data returned by the DBI to XML. I'm not a perl expert so I cannot speak to that. However, I doubt that it's effortless or trivial. Why would it be easier to write said layer if it was inside the DBMS instead of outside? Speed is the reason to have it in the RDBMS. My point is that XML is coming and it's a good thing. MySQL is an important part of the Open Source community and I don't want to see it trivialized or handicapped in relation commercial RDBMS. In the meantime, I'm willing to recommend it to clients and wait patiently for increased functionality. -- Regards, Doug - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: XML support under mySQL
Since XML is a way to exchange data...and it is protocol/platform indepdnent there is a very good reason to have XML docuemts going in and out the database. For example the database server can offer HTTP services, so we don't need stuff like JDBC/ODBC and all that. It can be done through HTTP, the result will be XML which together with some XSLT specs. can be made in some human usefull format like HTML, WML or just plain application interface. So tyhe database can be one more service offered and will not be different from other services like web server, or even COtaRBA. And you cannot say that Oracle has just good marketing not a deisgn, since u first should be very familiar with the Oracle server to knowiate to appricciate it's design. on 2/22/01 5:32 AMhange data and is protocol/platform Ed Carp at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric Frazier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: One thing I want. A Java way to save a data structure and recover it later. Easy in perl, not so easy in Java. But XML would be a great way to do it in Java. Why Java? That's like going to a gas station and saying "I want gas specifically formulated for my 1998 Ford Taurus". If Java doesn't do what you want, maybe it's time to look at other options. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG [EMAIL PROTECTED] 940/367-2744 cell phone http://www.pobox.com/~erc [EMAIL PROTECTED] - text pager I sometimes wonder if the American people deserve to be free - they seem so unwilling to fight to preserve the few freedoms they have left. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
