What dotnet magazines do you read?

[Bill McCarthy]

What dotnet magazines do you read?  Feeds, websites, printed on trees stuff ?

RE: Marshalling strings

[Bill McCarthy]

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xda6xzx7.aspx


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Greg Keogh
Sent: Tuesday, 24 October 2017 4:50 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: Marshalling strings

This article: 
https://limbioliong.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/returning-strings-from-a-c-api/

Hints that the interop marshaller takes ownership of the returned string and 
will delete the buffer. If this is true, then it's pretty smart and invalidates 
our concerns about a possible leak. I'm reading more and running some 
experiments -- GK

On 24 October 2017 at 16:28, Tony McGee 
> wrote:
My understanding would be that either the caller allocated a large enough 
buffer and passes it to the library in which case the callee does a copy and 
doesn't need to worry about it
-or- the callee keeps the pointer they've given out and expects the caller to 
pass it back to another function to do the free/dealloc.

I believe there's standard functions for allocating things like BSTR's from the 
COM days (SysAllocString/SysFreeString) where the callee allocates and the 
caller is responsible for deallocation but passing out raw wchar_t pointers 
without agreeing on a deallocation method isnt great.

On 24 Oct 2017 15:14, "Greg Keogh" 
> wrote:
Folks, my REST web service makes calls to C++ functions in a native DLL. The 
functions return wchar_t* which I marshal into a managed string.

The author of the C++ code doesn't know when to free the buffer he's allocated 
for the string (neither do I). The very last statement in his function is 
return char_ptr, so the function ends and the buffer becomes a leak. I consume 
the pointer after his function ends, so when can he delete it?

Is there some trick I'm forgetting? Or are we doing it the wrong way?

Greg K

RE: Marshalling strings

[Bill McCarthy]

Can you change the function signature to allow you alloc and pass the buffer to 
the function… then management is all yours.


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Greg Keogh
Sent: Tuesday, 24 October 2017 4:15 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Marshalling strings

Folks, my REST web service makes calls to C++ functions in a native DLL. The 
functions return wchar_t* which I marshal into a managed string.

The author of the C++ code doesn't know when to free the buffer he's allocated 
for the string (neither do I). The very last statement in his function is 
return char_ptr, so the function ends and the buffer becomes a leak. I consume 
the pointer after his function ends, so when can he delete it?

Is there some trick I'm forgetting? Or are we doing it the wrong way?

Greg K

RE: [OT] NBN and phone

[Bill McCarthy]

Probably crap cable or connector. Here I grabbed one pair out of the 4 pair 
cable I run between floors, and then spliced that back into the old telephone 
line. Have you got a cable tester ?


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Greg Keogh
Sent: Sunday, 17 September 2017 12:10 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: [OT] NBN and phone

Folks, I was forced to move the house phone up to my office where it plugs into 
the NBN modem. Sick of this, I bought 10m of RJ12 cable from Jaycar, crawled 
under the house and put the phone back in it's old spot plugged into my newly 
strung cable.

No go! The phone base just says "Check Tel Line".

Is there some length limit? I believe RJ11 and RJ12 are exchangeable for house 
phone use. Something else I'm not aware of?!

Greg K

RE: XML files served by Azure Websites

[Bill McCarthy]

Can you browse to the static file store on azure and change it’s content type 
in the properties dialog ?

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Greg Low (??)
Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2017 7:05 PM
To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>
Subject: Re: XML files served by Azure Websites

But that still leaves the question on how to change that. It's just serving up 
a static xml file. How is the content type for that specified? And more 
importantly, where?
Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com>


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
<ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> on behalf 
of Bill McCarthy 
<bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au<mailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 5:32:06 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: XML files served by Azure Websites

Just looked at feedvalidator.org .  Look at the help link:
http://www.feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/EncodingMismatch.html

your site is serving up response content type: text/xml


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Low (??)
Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2017 4:55 PM
To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Subject: Re: XML files served by Azure Websites

Yes I did think BOM was on UTF-16. Either way, issue seems to be the header 
from the site. No idea where to set it. I'm suspecting that the lack of a value 
probably sends this as a default. Can't find ASCII mentioned anywhere in 
project files.
Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com>


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
<ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> on behalf 
of Bill McCarthy 
<bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au<mailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 3:05:00 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: XML files served by Azure Websites

Thought it was the other way around and that BOM was unnecessary for utf-8.
To me Greg’s problem looks like the server is sending a response block saying 
the content type is asci, then send an xml file which is utf-8.  Would have to 
do old school spit out bytes to test as I doubt any text editor would permit 
the file to be saved as ascii as it would be invalid ascii file

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2017 2:55 PM
To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Subject: Re: XML files served by Azure Websites

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 at 13:41 Bill McCarthy 
<bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au<mailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au>> wrote:
The file itself is utf-8, or unicode due to special characters in it, eg Lòpez
So problem is not with the file.

No, a UTF-8 stream is defined as such by a byte order marker at the start of 
the stream. You can have UTF-8 files composed entirely of ASCII characters.

--
David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363<tel:+61%20417%20189%20363>
--
David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363

RE: XML files served by Azure Websites

[Bill McCarthy]

Just looked at feedvalidator.org .  Look at the help link:
http://www.feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/EncodingMismatch.html

your site is serving up response content type: text/xml


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Greg Low (??)
Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2017 4:55 PM
To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>
Subject: Re: XML files served by Azure Websites

Yes I did think BOM was on UTF-16. Either way, issue seems to be the header 
from the site. No idea where to set it. I'm suspecting that the lack of a value 
probably sends this as a default. Can't find ASCII mentioned anywhere in 
project files.
Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com>


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
<ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> on behalf 
of Bill McCarthy 
<bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au<mailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 3:05:00 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: XML files served by Azure Websites

Thought it was the other way around and that BOM was unnecessary for utf-8.
To me Greg’s problem looks like the server is sending a response block saying 
the content type is asci, then send an xml file which is utf-8.  Would have to 
do old school spit out bytes to test as I doubt any text editor would permit 
the file to be saved as ascii as it would be invalid ascii file

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2017 2:55 PM
To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Subject: Re: XML files served by Azure Websites

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 at 13:41 Bill McCarthy 
<bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au<mailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au>> wrote:
The file itself is utf-8, or unicode due to special characters in it, eg Lòpez
So problem is not with the file.

No, a UTF-8 stream is defined as such by a byte order marker at the start of 
the stream. You can have UTF-8 files composed entirely of ASCII characters.

--
David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363<tel:+61%20417%20189%20363>
--
David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363

RE: XML files served by Azure Websites

[Bill McCarthy]

Thought it was the other way around and that BOM was unnecessary for utf-8.
To me Greg’s problem looks like the server is sending a response block saying 
the content type is asci, then send an xml file which is utf-8.  Would have to 
do old school spit out bytes to test as I doubt any text editor would permit 
the file to be saved as ascii as it would be invalid ascii file

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of David Connors
Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2017 2:55 PM
To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>
Subject: Re: XML files served by Azure Websites

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 at 13:41 Bill McCarthy 
<bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au<mailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au>> wrote:
The file itself is utf-8, or unicode due to special characters in it, eg Lòpez
So problem is not with the file.

No, a UTF-8 stream is defined as such by a byte order marker at the start of 
the stream. You can have UTF-8 files composed entirely of ASCII characters.

--
David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363<tel:+61%20417%20189%20363>
--
David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363

RE: XML files served by Azure Websites

[Bill McCarthy]

The file itself is utf-8, or unicode due to special characters in it, eg Lòpez
So problem is not with the file.

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Greg Low (??)
Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2017 2:12 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: RE: XML files served by Azure Websites

I resaved the file, specifying the UTF-8 encoding, but still says the same. I 
think the file already was but perhaps not.

Here’s the link: http://www.sqldownunder.com/SQLDownUnderMP3Feed.xml


Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com 
|http://greglow.me

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com 
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2017 2:05 PM
To: ozDotNet >
Subject: Re: XML files served by Azure Websites

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 at 12:44 Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) 
> wrote:
Our podcast feed is served as an XML file from our Azure website. Feed 
validator returns this:

Your feed appears to be encoded as "UTF-8", but your server is reporting 
"US-ASCII"


Is the file actually UTF-8 or is it an ASCII file that has a UTF-8 attribute in 
the XML definition. There should be a byte order mark at the start of the file.


David.

--
David Connors
da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 
417 189 363

RE: resources.dll not found

[Bill McCarthy]

Fuslogvw no help ?

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Greg Keogh
Sent: Monday, 27 February 2017 2:18 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: resources.dll not found

Folks, pardon me for putting a Xamarin question into the general .NET group, 
but maybe there's a slim chance someone in here might have a clue. Pasted below 
a question I put into the Xamarin forums, but I never expect a reply. I've 
posted a few questions in the group but have NEVER received a reply. Also, 
searching the web for Xamarin answers it mostly futile, as all you find are 
long useless arguments in years old posts and people saying "I have that 
problem too, anyone got an answer?"

Without a doubt, Xamarin development is the worst thing I have experienced in 
37 years of coding (ignoring JavaScript of course!). Trying to get anything to 
work sensibly or reliably, or debug a problem is like peeing into a hurricane 
-- Greg K



I have been working on a new Xamarin Forms app in XStudio on an iMac targeting 
Android and iOS for several days without any problems. The project has all 
strings in a resx file which is used in the simplest way, using generated 
property names and GetString(). Without warning, and after making no 
significant code changes, the app suddenly started crashing with the following 
error whenever a resource was referenced.

System.IO.FileNotFoundException: Could not load file or assembly
'/Users/.../Library/Developer/CoreSimulator/Devices/.../data/Containers/Bundle/Application/.../TestApp1.iOS.app/en/TestApp1.resources.dll'
 or one of its dependencies

I have spent hours trying to overcome this problem. I have upgraded to the 
latest packages and references, cleaned all generated runtime files, examined 
the compiler options, search folders, searched the web, all to no avail. I have 
run out of things to try and I'm at my wits end. Resources are working 
correctly in other apps and in a small test one I created, which hints that the 
problem is specific this app and is perhaps related to compile or debug 
settings, but I can't find the cause.

Any help or advice is urgently needed, thanks.

RE: Coffee snobs

[Bill McCarthy]

Actually, yes, at least one is, IIRC. You can send a message to it so it pre 
warms etc. Still missing the delivery drone though.

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Greg Keogh<mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 8 April 2016 11:01 AM
To: ozDotNet<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>
Subject: Re: Coffee snobs

Are these things IoT enabled? -- *GK*

On 8 April 2016 at 10:56, Bill McCarthy <bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au>
wrote:

> When my delonghi broke down(leaking water), I started looking at
> alternative machines.  Most of the cheap machines will make a good short
> single shot. But I like long flat white (occasionally a long macchiato) ,
> so it gets hard to find a machine that will do that consistently sub $2k.
>
> I use to have a cheap breville years ago, and it was good, but it was only
> good at short drinks, and really was a messy pain compared to an auto
> machine. Me, I’d go auto at the sacrifice of money and quality 
>
>
>
> The biggest thing to look out for, is if this is your go to machine during
> the day, then this will be the coffee you get use to. Most people I know
> that have decades of coffee drinking experience in Australia, use to find
> instant coffee acceptable, palatable, and even enjoyable. I was reminded of
> this the other weekend when I went to the timboon miniature train festival,
> and the only coffee was instant: sometimes spoiling ourselves everyday,
> spoils us.  If I didn’t drink ‘reasonable’ coffee all the time, I might be
> able to enjoy an instant, and maybe even a macca’s coffee too 
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) <g...@greglow.com>
> *Sent: *Friday, 8 April 2016 10:19 AM
> *To: *ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>
> *Subject: *Coffee snobs
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> Given the importance of caffeine for code generation, I’m guessing there
> will be a few other coffee snobs on the list.
>
>
>
> Anyone got a recommendation for a serious (possibly manual) coffee
> machine?
>
>
>
> I’ve been using a DeLonghi automatic one but now feeling that I’d prefer
> something like this:
>
>
>
> BES890 or BES920:
> http://www.breville.com.au/beverages/coffee-machines.html
>
>
>
> The main thing that puts me off is the Breville brand.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>
>
>

RE: Coffee snobs

[Bill McCarthy]

When my delonghi broke down(leaking water), I started looking at alternative 
machines.  Most of the cheap machines will make a good short single shot. But I 
like long flat white (occasionally a long macchiato) , so it gets hard to find 
a machine that will do that consistently sub $2k.
I use to have a cheap breville years ago, and it was good, but it was only good 
at short drinks, and really was a messy pain compared to an auto machine. Me, 
I’d go auto at the sacrifice of money and quality 

The biggest thing to look out for, is if this is your go to machine during the 
day, then this will be the coffee you get use to. Most people I know that have 
decades of coffee drinking experience in Australia, use to find instant coffee 
acceptable, palatable, and even enjoyable. I was reminded of this the other 
weekend when I went to the timboon miniature train festival, and the only 
coffee was instant: sometimes spoiling ourselves everyday, spoils us.  If I 
didn’t drink ‘reasonable’ coffee all the time, I might be able to enjoy an 
instant, and maybe even a macca’s coffee too 


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)
Sent: Friday, 8 April 2016 10:19 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Coffee snobs

Hi Folks,

Given the importance of caffeine for code generation, I’m guessing there will 
be a few other coffee snobs on the list.

Anyone got a recommendation for a serious (possibly manual) coffee machine?

I’ve been using a DeLonghi automatic one but now feeling that I’d prefer 
something like this:

BES890 or BES920: http://www.breville.com.au/beverages/coffee-machines.html

The main thing that puts me off is the Breville brand.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com

RE: static interop dll loading issue

[Bill McCarthy]

Fuslogvw  ???

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Preet Sangha
Sent: Thursday, 25 February 2016 12:05 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: static interop dll loading issue

Thanks Davy.

.net 4 works fine on XP 32 for out other stuff it's just this item is
different in terms of load time dependency.


regards,
Preet, in Auckland NZ


On 24 February 2016 at 19:04, Davy Jones  wrote:

> I'm surprised that .4 is available on XP.
>
> Can you recompile for 3.5 instead?
>
> Davy
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 24 Feb 2016, at 02:56, Preet Sangha  wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I was wondering if there are any experts on here that may have come
> across an issue that I've been working on all day.
> >
> > I have 32bit legacy program C++ (VS2010)  that makes a call to the .net
> (4.0) c# assembly via a static method on a class in the assembly. The call
> then loads a windows form class and proceeds to provide some functionality.
> The call is via a #using "... my assembly path.dll" in c++ file that is
> marked as /clr. The whole calling dll/exe can't be marked as /clr due to
> it's legacy.
> >
> > This works on all tested architectures (w7+ 32/64/Server 2k8+/XP 64 bit)
> except Windows XP 32 bit. On the XP 32 bit platform we think the CLR is not
> loading before the static loader is loading my assembly dll and causing the
> load to terminate.
> >
> > I'm not getting any system generated crashes or dumps and the event
> viewer is conspicuous by it's silence. Any way I got to this stage by
> rebuilding everything on the suspect machine and using VS 2010 and pressing
> PF5 and I can see the crash in the load cycle.
> >
> > So what I'm asking for is clues as to how to go about further debugging
> or an perhaps hints as further resources I can consume further my knowledge
> of the loading process on this architecture.
> >
> >
> > (yes I know XP is out of support, unfortunately I'm unable to be likely
> drop support in this release due to the client being a govt organisation).
> >
> >
> >
> > Preet, in Auckland NZ
> >
>

RE: Interview question pseudocode (was RE: [OT] Internal Developer Training)

[Bill McCarthy]

Returning from the finally block should not be allowed, as the finally block is 
meant to always be executed (eventually) so a return in there could be preceded 
by an earlier return ,yet the finally return is meant to still execute: at best 
an unstable stack, but generally Not allowed

From: Mark Hurd
Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2016 4:37 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: Interview question pseudocode (was RE: [OT] Internal Developer 
Training)

If the question was *What happens here?"  or "Analyse this code (in various 
languages).", I would say it's not too bad as you can mention it should return 
2 in any language that accepts returning from a finally, which happens to 
include VB.NET indirectly, but I could believe there are languages that return 
1 because the finally happens some what out of band.

But, no, it's not a question I'd ask.

Regards,
Mark Hurd.

Sent from my Windows Phone.

-Original Message-
From: "Arjang Assadi" 
Sent: ‎9/‎02/‎2016 1:21 PM
To: "ozDotNet" 
Subject: Re: [OT] Internal Developer Training

Hello


" I've found that especially their C# skillsets are limited " , What would 
facilitate that finding? I have been wondering what makes one bad at language 
and still get to be a programmer?


for example what is point of quiz code like this :


try
  divide by 0
catch
  return 1
finally
  return 2


is this type of coding common practice that would necessitate it being an 
interview question?


How much language knowledge is enough?  Is there a checklist ? so one can put 
the langauge skills to rest and move on to architectural concepts instead? 
Doing raw programming instead of using established, patterns framework and 
tapping into prebuilt infrastructure doeasn't far outweighs obscure language 
skills in a given language?


Not having a go at you, but since you have found lack of language skills on 
professional programmers I have to ask you! Just going to the source Luke!


Regards


Arjang




On 9 February 2016 at 13:00, Dave Walker  wrote:

Hi all,


I've recently taken over a new team which has a wide variety of technical skill 
from complete beginner to senior developer. Talking to the team I've found that 
especially their C# skillsets are limited and can be greatly improved. So far 
we've organised for everyone to have a pluralsight account and encouragement is 
given to spend work time watching videos however it feels a little bit 
disconnected. I'd really like to have a more formal ongoing set of training but 
as it stands I have no experience implementing this.


There is limited budget so can't just send everyone off on a training course 
and not really looking for an overnight fix but more of a program that improves 
different skills over time to a certain level.


My thoughts for now were to mix between:
* Book club - everyone reads a chapter of 'Clean code' and we gather weekly to 
discuss it
* Pluralsight club - same but with a pluralsight video
* One on one peer programming where the more senior members help the less 
experienced
* Demo sessions/lectures by more experienced developers from outside the team


Has anyone else ever tried to take on something like this? If so how did you go 
about it and what advice can you give about this?


Cheers,
Dave

RE: vb.net

[Bill McCarthy]

Really ? What ‘legacy’ things are you referring to ?





From: Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 12:52 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: vb.net


Personally i would turn down such offer - actually wouldnt even be applying in 
the first place.

pretty good market out there with JS and C# .NET, try looking else where if you 
can



if you just recently graduated, your modern mindset would have a hard time 
dealing with VB and the legacy system.

you will likely lose passion


just my 2 cents


On 13 October 2015 at 12:47, Tom P  wrote:
Guys I've been offered a junior dev job but they insist on vb.net only. Does 
anyone know what is happening with vb.net going forward? I would hate to get 
stuck into the vb.net world and have it killed off within a few years.


Thanks
Tom

RE: vb.net

[Bill McCarthy]

Although there’s lots of c ‘style’ languages, the devil is always in the 
details/differences. I find it hard to switch between c# and js and not 
forget/mess up. With vb.net and js not so much a problem. 

 The same use to be said for vb and vbscript in days of asp




From: David Burstin
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 1:41 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: vb.net


I started my .net journey with vb.net, but these days I code C# unless I have 
to use vb for working with a legacy system.

I agree with Bill - there really isn't much difference between using the 
languages in .net. In fact, knowing my way around the .net framework (from 
having used it with vb) made the transition to c# much easier.

BUT, outside the .net world, I have found my knowledge of C# has helped me in 
reading (and learning) other languages - eg java, js, ruby. These all have a 
syntax which is far more like c# than vb.

So, if you can only use one language, for me it would be C# - but there is no 
reason at all that you should be confined to one language. If you are 
interested in the job, than go for it. Whatever happens, you will learn. Any 
job provides an opportunity to practice our craft and become better 
programmers. Plus, you can do projects after hours in whatever language you 
want :)

Cheers
Dave

On 13 October 2015 at 13:33, Bill McCarthy <bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au> 
wrote:
 
 
This usually a great rant starter for a Friday conversation. Realistically 
though Vb.net is much a muchness with c# on .net. Definitely the best language 
if doing integrated xml. With late binding stuff it has some advantages with 
better conversions, but also disadvantages such as wider scope.
 
Realistically the biggest disadvantage of vb.net is if you want to integrate 
some large source code from open licence stuff... usually more is available in 
c#.
 
 
 

From: Tom P
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 12:48 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: vb.net
 
 
Guys I've been offered a junior dev job but they insist on vb.net only. Does 
anyone know what is happening with vb.net going forward? I would hate to get 
stuck into the vb.net world and have it killed off within a few years.


Thanks
Tom
 
 

RE: vb.net

[Bill McCarthy]

There’s also the new bling bling oh look shiny (squirrel) approach, versus the 
existing and established client base and app approach. Pumping out new apps 
using the latest buts just shows you’re good at playing with new toys. 
Improving, expanding, and working with real user bases, develops problem 
solving and people skills. I’ve worked on apps where we’ve moved existing 
clients to web based solutions and had to deal with client expectations to have 
the same keyboard shortcuts, wanting similar screens to their old vt100 
emulation screens (well nit that bad, but not far from it). Some do view that 
as a pain, but clients who have to pay for the changes are the ones who find it 
most painful if the change is just for change sake.

Learning how to work effectively with existing clients and codebase will 
develop real skills you can’t get elsewhere. If you want to code with the 
latest bits pushing out only new stuff, you can do that with the internet and 
your spare time 

Btw: reporting services custom code... just sating




From: David Burstin
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 2:19 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: vb.net


I think the real message here is - forget the language, just don't work for 
Nelson's senior. Stubborn a**h are not confined to any particular language. 
:)

On 13 October 2015 at 14:14, Nelson <nelson.honey...@gmail.com> wrote:
My concern here (regarding the job offer) is not about the language use.

i cannot stress enough how a pain in the a** it can be when working with 
seniors who are reluctant to change and adopt newer better technology.

And as a Junior in the team you are basically screwed, especially you started 
your training with all the modern tech and tools.



I had a hard time convincing my senior to switch to ASP.NET MVC from WebForms.  

although that turn out may not be the best idea - he still code like WebForms 
way in MVC

anyway he still thinks WebForms is superior and can do stuff MVC cant do till 
this date unfortunately



you can also imagine how your ideas got banned just because you are the junior 
and he play the experience game with you.

even though that experience translate to sticking to 10-20 years old libraries 
when there are modern, much more popular alternatives

(the best example i think of right now is that he is still using his copy of a 
1997 alpha version of date.js library - probably thats the time he started 
learning js?)



I'm not saying VB.NET people are all stubborn and old. but the probability of 
having to work with a**h*** is just much higher than i like.

After all, it won't be a cultural fit for me personally as i'm a 
state-of-the-art person and would love to work with new technology


On 13 October 2015 at 13:53, Bill McCarthy <bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au> 
wrote:
 
Although there’s lots of c ‘style’ languages, the devil is always in the 
details/differences. I find it hard to switch between c# and js and not 
forget/mess up. With vb.net and js not so much a problem. 
 
The same use to be said for vb and vbscript in days of asp
 
 
 

From: David Burstin
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 1:41 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: vb.net
 
 
I started my .net journey with vb.net, but these days I code C# unless I have 
to use vb for working with a legacy system.
 
I agree with Bill - there really isn't much difference between using the 
languages in .net. In fact, knowing my way around the .net framework (from 
having used it with vb) made the transition to c# much easier.
 
BUT, outside the .net world, I have found my knowledge of C# has helped me in 
reading (and learning) other languages - eg java, js, ruby. These all have a 
syntax which is far more like c# than vb.
 
So, if you can only use one language, for me it would be C# - but there is no 
reason at all that you should be confined to one language. If you are 
interested in the job, than go for it. Whatever happens, you will learn. Any 
job provides an opportunity to practice our craft and become better 
programmers. Plus, you can do projects after hours in whatever language you 
want :)
 
Cheers
Dave
 
On 13 October 2015 at 13:33, Bill McCarthy <bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au> 
wrote:
 
 
This usually a great rant starter for a Friday conversation. Realistically 
though Vb.net is much a muchness with c# on .net. Definitely the best language 
if doing integrated xml. With late binding stuff it has some advantages with 
better conversions, but also disadvantages such as wider scope.
 
Realistically the biggest disadvantage of vb.net is if you want to integrate 
some large source code from open licence stuff... usually more is available in 
c#.
 
 
 

From: Tom P
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 12:48 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: vb.net
 
 
Guys I've been offered a junior dev job but they insist on vb.net only. Does 
anyone know what is happening with vb.net going forward? I would hate to get 
stuck into the vb.net world and have it killed off within a few years.


Thanks
Tom
 
 
 
 
 

RE: vb.net

[Bill McCarthy]

Tom said ‘vb.net’.





From: Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 1:35 PM
To: Bill McCarthy
Cc: Nelson;ozDotNet
Subject: Re: vb.net


things that are old enough to still be running vb?

and i have a feeling people who still stick to vb are fairly stubborn.

i know im stereotyping here sorry if i offended anyone but that was my 
experience


On Tuesday, 13 October 2015, Bill McCarthy <bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au> 
wrote:
Really ? What ‘legacy’ things are you referring to ?
 
 
 
 

From: Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 12:52 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: vb.net
 
 
Personally i would turn down such offer - actually wouldnt even be applying in 
the first place.
 
pretty good market out there with JS and C# .NET, try looking else where if you 
can
 
 
 
if you just recently graduated, your modern mindset would have a hard time 
dealing with VB and the legacy system.
 
you will likely lose passion
 
 
just my 2 cents
 
 
On 13 October 2015 at 12:47, Tom P <tompbi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Guys I've been offered a junior dev job but they insist on vb.net only. Does 
anyone know what is happening with vb.net going forward? I would hate to get 
stuck into the vb.net world and have it killed off within a few years.


Thanks
Tom
 
 
 

RE: vb.net

[Bill McCarthy]

This usually a great rant starter for a Friday conversation. Realistically 
though Vb.net is much a muchness with c# on .net. Definitely the best language 
if doing integrated xml. With late binding stuff it has some advantages with 
better conversions, but also disadvantages such as wider scope.

Realistically the biggest disadvantage of vb.net is if you want to integrate 
some large source code from open licence stuff... usually more is available in 
c#.




From: Tom P
Sent: Tuesday, 13 October 2015 12:48 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: vb.net


Guys I've been offered a junior dev job but they insist on vb.net only. Does 
anyone know what is happening with vb.net going forward? I would hate to get 
stuck into the vb.net world and have it killed off within a few years.


Thanks
Tom

Re: Windows Mobile Development on Windows 8

[Bill McCarthy]

But even as local admin, you still need to install “as admin”








Sent from Surface





From: David Richards
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎26‎ ‎June‎ ‎2015 ‎1‎:‎13‎ ‎PM
To: ozDotNet





My account is local admin so yes for VS, The SDKs won't install so no for them 
:)




David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama



On 26 June 2015 at 12:24, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:




Sorry, I was thinking wp. For wm, it may still be an emulator problem but 
that’d be virtual pc (possibly). You did install vs pro and the sdk both as 
admin?






Sent from Surface





From: David Richards
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎26‎ ‎June‎ ‎2015 ‎11‎:‎42‎ ‎AM
To: ozDotNet







No, why?



David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama



On 26 June 2015 at 11:26, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:




Does your new machine have Hyper-v installed and working?






Sent from Surface





From: David Richards
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎26‎ ‎June‎ ‎2015 ‎11‎:‎03‎ ‎AM
To: ozDotNet







That's our fallback option.  Although we use VMWare.  I'm hoping it doesn't 
come to that but it's not looking good so far.




David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama



On 26 June 2015 at 10:58, Greg Keogh gfke...@gmail.com wrote:








Hyper-v ??





I wrote a Windows phone 8 app last December and I had to do it on Windows 8 
(after naively installing everything on Win7 and finding options and features 
missing). I remember getting some weird errors that were fixed by configuring 
Hyper-V, but I can't remember the details now sorry -- Greg

Re: Windows Mobile Development on Windows 8

[Bill McCarthy]

Sorry, I was thinking wp. For wm, it may still be an emulator problem but 
that’d be virtual pc (possibly). You did install vs pro and the sdk both as 
admin?






Sent from Surface





From: David Richards
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎26‎ ‎June‎ ‎2015 ‎11‎:‎42‎ ‎AM
To: ozDotNet





No, why?



David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama



On 26 June 2015 at 11:26, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:




Does your new machine have Hyper-v installed and working?






Sent from Surface





From: David Richards
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎26‎ ‎June‎ ‎2015 ‎11‎:‎03‎ ‎AM
To: ozDotNet







That's our fallback option.  Although we use VMWare.  I'm hoping it doesn't 
come to that but it's not looking good so far.




David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama



On 26 June 2015 at 10:58, Greg Keogh gfke...@gmail.com wrote:








Hyper-v ??





I wrote a Windows phone 8 app last December and I had to do it on Windows 8 
(after naively installing everything on Win7 and finding options and features 
missing). I remember getting some weird errors that were fixed by configuring 
Hyper-V, but I can't remember the details now sorry -- Greg

Re: Windows Mobile Development on Windows 8

[Bill McCarthy]

Does your new machine have Hyper-v installed and working?






Sent from Surface





From: David Richards
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎26‎ ‎June‎ ‎2015 ‎11‎:‎03‎ ‎AM
To: ozDotNet





That's our fallback option.  Although we use VMWare.  I'm hoping it doesn't 
come to that but it's not looking good so far.




David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama



On 26 June 2015 at 10:58, Greg Keogh gfke...@gmail.com wrote:








Hyper-v ??





I wrote a Windows phone 8 app last December and I had to do it on Windows 8 
(after naively installing everything on Win7 and finding options and features 
missing). I remember getting some weird errors that were fixed by configuring 
Hyper-V, but I can't remember the details now sorry -- Greg

Re: Windows Mobile Development on Windows 8

[Bill McCarthy]

Hyper-v ??






Sent from Surface





From: David Richards
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎26‎ ‎June‎ ‎2015 ‎8‎:‎18‎ ‎AM
To: ozDotNet





Stephen,



Interesting idea.  But I did use the exact same install files I normally use on 
windows 7.  I keep them handy on our file server.




My suspicion is the installers are relying on a particular method of checking 
for installed copies of VS.  There is probably some subtle difference between 
windows 7 and 8 that makes that check fail.




David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama



On 25 June 2015 at 17:36, Stephen Price step...@perthprojects.com wrote:


Not heard anything either way (sorry that's not much help) but if you are 
installing WM SDK, check that you are not installing a newer version than what 
you currently have working on your Windows 7 machine.



From what you have said its more likely an issue with mismatched VS to SDK 
versions. As a rule of thumb if it runs on Windows 7, it should run on Windows 
8. If you were to install all the stuff you are installing onto a Windows 7 
machine you'd probably hit the same issue. 

If you have a windows 7 vm you might try it to verify that, but depends how 
long it takes, if you want to go there



 




On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 1:55 PM, David Richards ausdot...@davidsuniverse.com 
wrote:


Greetings all,



I'm currently on windows 7 but we've recently bought new hardware and we're 
upgrading to windows 8 (and presumably 10 soon) but I'm having compatibility 
problems.  We need to be able to develop for windows mobile (as opposed to 
windows phone) but I can't seem to get it working on windows 8.  I managed to 
get VS 2008 SP1 installed but when I try to install any of the WM SDKs, they 
complain that VS isn't installed and won't let me proceed.  I'm dreading having 
to keep my windows 7 machine running just for WM development but this is what 
I'm facing.




Does anyone know if it's possible to develop for WM on windows 8?  Or 
conversely, does anyone KNOW that it's not possible?  I haven't been able to 
find a definitive answer so far.






David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama

RE: Windows on a Mac Pro

[Bill McCarthy]

Yeh, yeh.  Just wanted to know if anyone on this list has done it and had any 
issues. (should have waited till Friday g)


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Chere
|Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 5:14 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows on a Mac Pro
|
|http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+run+windows+on+a+mac+pro
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 5:12 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: OT: Windows on a Mac Pro
|
|Hi,
|
|Any of you guys run windows on a mac pro? What is needed ? Any issues ?
|
|Thanks
|
|
|
|This message has been scanned for malware by Websense. www.websense.com

RE: [OT] NBN revisited

[Bill McCarthy]

Here’s a good read from today :
http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turnbulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-20130904-2t4cr.html

 

Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at 
the forest.

RE: [OT] NBN revisited

[Bill McCarthy]

I wouldn't count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get
that many fridges installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in
three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done,
then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that
is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it
terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash
against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc.
Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see
what the costs are and how long it takes: 

 

Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;)

 

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of GregAtGregLowDotCom
Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:51 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited

 

Like most people, I'd love to have FTTH.

 

However, I have zero confidence in the current government's ability to
deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won't make it happen.

 

Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node
in 2016, and a dream of a service that's unlikely to appear before I retire
in about 10 years' time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I'd
pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

Dr Greg Low

 

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax


SQL Down Under | Web:  http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of David Richards
Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited

 

Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article.

 

For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum
some years back.  I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a
politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people
would vote for the president.

 

The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so
without all the facts.  Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a
decision.

 

People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of
view.  I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general.

 

If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it.  For cable, my only option
now is Optus which is what I have.  Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a
fraction of the data and for a lot more money.  If only I had a choice...




David

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes 
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama

 

On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
wrote:

Here's a good read from today :
http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turn
bulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-2013
0904-2t4cr.html

 

Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking
at the forest.

 

RE: Silverlight on Windows 8

[Bill McCarthy]

I thought it does support flash

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|Sent: Wednesday, 28 August 2013 11:31 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Silverlight on Windows 8
|
|Greg,
|Windows 8 IE browser (the full screen metro one) does not support plugins.
So no
|Silverlight, no Flash etc.
|
|It's more commonly known as a Silverlight Coup de grâce.
|
|Enjoy.
|
|
|On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote:
|
|
|   Folks, I'm getting a weird conflict running Silverlight 5 apps on
Windows
|8. In the Metro shell's browser it knows I don't have SL5 installed on the
first visit
|and asks me to install a file (with x64 in the name). It then flips over to
the old
|shell and installs the file okay. Now SL5 is working in IE10 in the old
shell, but the
|Metro browser keeps asking me to install Silverlight over and over, and if
you do
|it says another version is already installed.
|
|   So there is a catch-22 dead-end. Some web searches hint that SL5 is
not
|supported in the Windows 8 Metro browser. I could not believe this would be
|true. Is it, or am I missing some trick?
|
|
|   Greg
|

RE: Silverlight on Windows 8

[Bill McCarthy]

Yep just checked on my Surface RT, and flash works both in the modern UI and
desktop versions. Silverlight will not install at all on Windows RT

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney
|Sent: Wednesday, 28 August 2013 11:43 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Silverlight on Windows 8
|
|Yep. Supports flash but not Silverlight.
|
|On 28 Aug 2013 11:40, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
wrote:
|
|
|   I thought it does support flash
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|   |Sent: Wednesday, 28 August 2013 11:31 AM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: Re: Silverlight on Windows 8
|   |
|   |Greg,
|   |Windows 8 IE browser (the full screen metro one) does not support
|plugins.
|   So no
|   |Silverlight, no Flash etc.
|   |
|   |It's more commonly known as a Silverlight Coup de grâce.
|   |
|   |Enjoy.
|   |
|   |
|   |On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote:
|   |
|   |
|   |   Folks, I'm getting a weird conflict running Silverlight 5
apps on
|   Windows
|   |8. In the Metro shell's browser it knows I don't have SL5 installed
on the
|   first visit
|   |and asks me to install a file (with x64 in the name). It then flips
over to
|   the old
|   |shell and installs the file okay. Now SL5 is working in IE10 in the
old
|   shell, but the
|   |Metro browser keeps asking me to install Silverlight over and over,
and
|if
|   you do
|   |it says another version is already installed.
|   |
|   |   So there is a catch-22 dead-end. Some web searches hint that
SL5 is
|   not
|   |supported in the Windows 8 Metro browser. I could not believe this
|would be
|   |true. Is it, or am I missing some trick?
|   |
|   |
|   |   Greg
|   |
|
|
|

RE: Lightweight database

[Bill McCarthy]

I think one of the first design parameters you need is how much data.  If
the amount of data is small, then you can get away with xml. If it starts
slowing down you need to move to a different format such as a custom binary.

XML - quick to code, easy, the customer can own their own data and work it
out themselves if needed. Can be slow as data increases.
Binary - slower to code, needs a lot of rules up front, speedy in use, needs
custom export  as xml functions (perhaps)

In both cases you end up loading all the data into memory, so there's a real
upper limit. If you get into paging it gets too complex and it's time for a
real data provider.

XML suffers from having to parse the file, looking for special characters,
then a lookup match for each field for each record.
Binary on the other hand you can write the length of each record as the
record prefix so you just read in chunks of bytes, splitting each field
either at fixed length (really quick) or having variable length prefixed
with their length.
Eg

User
 FirstNameGreg/FirstName
LastNameKeogh/LastName
User

Becomes

30 4 Greg 5 Keogh

Where the 30 is the first dword (4 bytes), 4 is the next (4 bytes), then
parse the string which is 4 Char (wide is 8 bytes) next 4 bytes is the value
of 5, then parse the 5 chars (10 bytes)

The problem with doing binary is if they change the schema, it's a real PITA
to change the code.



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh
|Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2013 12:25 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Lightweight database
|
|Folks, an app has just grown with a new feature that needs to store  of
users,
|jobs and reports and the joins between them, If I was using SQLite it
would be
|3 tables with joins. However, rather than use SQLite this time I'd like to
consider
|an alternative that's even more lightweight to setup and use. The app does
not
|currently use any database technology and the guys managing the project are
|actually scared of them.
|
|Can anyone recommend an in-process database (not necessarily relational!)
that
|is has a friendly managed API, small footprint, not too complicated and is
easy to
|get going? I know this is a lot to ask, but there may be some NoSQL options
|around that I'm not aware of. The most important issues for me are: (1)
Minimal
|dependencies (2) Simple managed API.
|
|I'm running a few web searches now for such things, and I can see Redis,
Mongo,
|Couch, Raven, db4o, Cassandra, Eloquera, Lucene, and the list goes on and
on.
|There are too many choices and it would take many days of hard slog to work
out
|which one would be suitable. So perhaps someone has already been through
this
|process?!
|
|I've been tempted many times over the last 10 years to write a pure managed
|single-file database with indexes, and nothing much else (no transactions,
no
|client-server, no schemas, etc). However, I decided to leave it to the
experts, and
|it looks like there are too many of them, and they all over-engineer their
works.
|
|Cheers,
|Greg K

RE: Lightweight database

[Bill McCarthy]

Yep, but with XML the new app will read the old data without a problem
(unless there has been field delete's or renaming).

With the binary, there's a bit more to the coding (and testing) of the
layout.  That said, if you write the version number in the data file's
header, you can switch out to a conversion routine which would use a lot of
the old parser anyway. Where-as the XML is a b it harder to switch out to
different parsers.  So there's probably not a lot in it, but I know it's the
binary ones that seem to get me to have get the pad and pen or a spreadsheet
open while I do it ;)




|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of GregAtGregLowDotCom
|Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2013 2:25 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Lightweight database
|
|Agreed. Even with XML, you might to deal with what happens if the schema
|changes ie: can your new app read an old saved set of data?
|
|Regards,
|
|Greg
|
|Dr Greg Low
|
|1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
fax
|
|SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
|
|I think one of the first design parameters you need is how much data.  If
the
|amount of data is small, then you can get away with xml. If it starts
slowing down
|you need to move to a different format such as a custom binary.
|
|XML - quick to code, easy, the customer can own their own data and work it
out
|themselves if needed. Can be slow as data increases.
|Binary - slower to code, needs a lot of rules up front, speedy in use,
needs custom
|export  as xml functions (perhaps)
|
|In both cases you end up loading all the data into memory, so there's a
real upper
|limit. If you get into paging it gets too complex and it's time for a real
data
|provider.
|
|XML suffers from having to parse the file, looking for special characters,
then a
|lookup match for each field for each record.
|Binary on the other hand you can write the length of each record as the
record
|prefix so you just read in chunks of bytes, splitting each field either at
fixed length
|(really quick) or having variable length prefixed with their length.
|Eg
|
|User
| FirstNameGreg/FirstName
|LastNameKeogh/LastName
|User
|
|Becomes
|
|30 4 Greg 5 Keogh
|
|Where the 30 is the first dword (4 bytes), 4 is the next (4 bytes), then
parse the
|string which is 4 Char (wide is 8 bytes) next 4 bytes is the value of 5,
then parse
|the 5 chars (10 bytes)
|
|The problem with doing binary is if they change the schema, it's a real
PITA to
|change the code.
|
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh
||Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2013 12:25 PM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: Lightweight database
||
||Folks, an app has just grown with a new feature that needs to store  of
|users,
||jobs and reports and the joins between them, If I was using SQLite
||it
|would be
||3 tables with joins. However, rather than use SQLite this time I'd like
||to
|consider
||an alternative that's even more lightweight to setup and use. The app
||does
|not
||currently use any database technology and the guys managing the project
||are actually scared of them.
||
||Can anyone recommend an in-process database (not necessarily
||relational!)
|that
||is has a friendly managed API, small footprint, not too complicated and
||is
|easy to
||get going? I know this is a lot to ask, but there may be some NoSQL
||options around that I'm not aware of. The most important issues for me
||are: (1)
|Minimal
||dependencies (2) Simple managed API.
||
||I'm running a few web searches now for such things, and I can see
||Redis,
|Mongo,
||Couch, Raven, db4o, Cassandra, Eloquera, Lucene, and the list goes on
||and
|on.
||There are too many choices and it would take many days of hard slog to
||work
|out
||which one would be suitable. So perhaps someone has already been
||through
|this
||process?!
||
||I've been tempted many times over the last 10 years to write a pure
||managed single-file database with indexes, and nothing much else (no
||transactions,
|no
||client-server, no schemas, etc). However, I decided to leave it to the
|experts, and
||it looks like there are too many of them, and they all over-engineer
||their
|works.
||
||Cheers,
||Greg K
|
|

RE: Is Surface really failing?

[Bill McCarthy]

I've been using windows 8 since the RTM bits became available: it has grown on 
me, but honestly I still rarely ever use the start screen tiles. That's mainly 
because I use predominantly desktop apps, combined with relative poor quality 
metro apps for the day to day tasks.
For example:

(1) mail: It just doesn't have the features I'm used to, such as how do you 
search multiple folders. If I have to use something other than outlook, I'd 
much prefer google or outlook.com.  And Outlook of course doesn't have live 
tiles (not that they'd really do much for me other than show number of 
new/unread mail items

(2) Calendar: I do use this, mainly for a google calendar from another 
organisation. Problem is if I update mail app, apparently I loose the google 
calendar sync. Other problem is no integration with outlook

(3) Photos: uhm, what the  ?  I can view my photos and that's about it. If 
I select a couple of photos I can't see any way to do anything with them.. no 
Share, no upload, no retouch... Nothing.

(4) People :  Looks potentially promising but because Mail is lame, it suffers 
from complete lack of integration in my day to day because it doesn't integrate 
with Outlook.  Ironically, Outlook 2013 has trouble synching my people list 
from @Live, yet People doesn't. One of the reasons I'm stuck using Outlook 2010 
alongside Office 2013.  I guess one day if the Office and Windows teams work 
together (coughanti-trust/cough), then this along with the mail and 
calendar issues may be fixed, but until then ..

And because I don't use the live tiles for my day to day, I really don't get 
into or explore the whole app store thing.

So in regard to surface pro, I don't think that will change the way people 
perceive it much at all. They'll basically be using it a lot like I do.  The 
dream of the seamless integration with Windows Phone experience will still just 
be a teaser at this stage. I'm hoping blue will take a lot of my windows 8 
blues away (there's still hope ;) )



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Jason Roberts
|Sent: Thursday, 9 May 2013 9:32 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Is Surface really failing?
|
|Hi David, well now you know person that likes it :) I have been using since
|previews, it has a few niggling things but overall I like it. In terms of
|affordances/discoverability once you know about the corners you're pretty much
|set. How long have you been using win8 out of interest?
|
|Doesn't like the iPad have things like 4 finger swipes, how do users discover 
those
|gestures without being told?
|
|
|From: David Richards mailto:ausdot...@davidsuniverse.com
|Sent: ‎9/‎05/‎2013 7:12 AM
|To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
|Subject: Re: Is Surface really failing?
|
|
|I have to say, I'm really surprised anyone could ask this.  I don't know a 
single
|person that likes windows 8.  I don't mean they think yeah its ok but windows 
7
|is better, I mean they think hate, loath, detest.  It is one of the worst 
user
|interfaces I've seen, second only to itunes.
|
|When I first tried windows 8, I intentionally made sure I didn't read anything
|about it.  I literally was unable to use it for a full 30 minutes!  I could 
click on
|enormous, 20 cm buttons to run an app and that was it.  I eventually gave up 
and
|went to google, only to discover there is a magical, invisible button about 5 
pixels
|wide in the corner.  Really!?  Who thought that was a good idea?
|
|Go to Android or iOS and a child could figure them out in minutes.  My two year
|old was confidently using both in minutes.  I have no doubt he would have 
gotten
|stuck in windows 8 in seconds.
|
|Regardless of your opinion on the style (I personally don't like the style 
formally
|known as metro), it is not a UI that a person could figure out just by looking 
at it.
|People have to be told how to use it.  Consequently, it will always fail in
|comparison to the others.
|
|
|David
|
|If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes  will fall like a house 
of
|cards... checkmate!
| -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
|
|
|
|On 8 May 2013 18:15, Arjang Assadi arjang.ass...@gmail.com wrote:
|
|
|   Hello all,
|
|   It seems there is no shortage of Surface.bashing :
|   http://www.zdnet.com/windows-8-microsofts-new-coke-moment-
|714779/
|
|   Are there people really proposing to not to have Metro interface on
|tablets? Is it really that hard for windows 7 fanatics to click on a tile to 
see
|Windows 7 Desktop?
|
|   Having used Android, IPad and Surface ( in that orders ), Can not 
imagine
|why anyone prefer any other tablet to Surface.
|
|   Is Surface really failing? or is it just the usual trolls cooking up 
the stats?
|Anyone has any comments from horses mouth (MS) regarding this? Any news on
|what is next after Surface from MS? Any rumors for Surface II ?
|
|   Thank you
|
|
|

RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces in C#?

[Bill McCarthy]

If looking for a programing language that is more suited to a text reader,
then I'd suggest VB, where blocks are more self descriptive, eg:  If ...
Then ... Else .. End If.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ben Scott
|Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 10:59 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces
in
|C#?
|
|Katherine, from what I understand you are vision-impaired? I can understand
that
|braces would quickly become a problem for you. Maybe you could look into a
|language like F# which uses tabs for nesting rather than braces. There
would be a
|learning curve but that may be worthwhile in the long term. Other
alternatives
|are Ruby and Coffeescript - Coffeescript may be a good start as you may be
able
|to leverage that in to developing Javascript-based Windows 8 apps.
|
|Other than that I would recommend just making sure each brace is on a new
line
|so that you can see the nesting. It is tempting to cram as much on each
line but in
|the long run spreading it out makes it much easier to maintain. Also use a
brace
|whenever you can, so no shortcuts like:
|
|if (something) Foo();
|
|Instead always do:
|
|if (something)
|{
|Foo();
|}
|
|
|
|
|On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.com
|wrote:
|
|
|   Sounds like you have too much nesting. If you have more than a
couple
|of levels maybe try separating it out into new methods. Hard to tell
without
|seeing the code.
|
|
|   On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Katherine Moss
|katherine.m...@gordon.edu wrote:
|
|
|   Hello all,
|   Does anyone know any methods I could use when practicing
|programming in C# (I'm kind of just learning, so it can get annoying
sometimes),
|to keep my braces straight?  I will be writing something simple, and then
before I
|know it, I'll have fifty errors show up all because of one brace not closed
or two
|braces in the wrong place.  Very annoying when fifty errors come up because
of a
|single problem.  And not only in keeping track of braces, I'm also confused
as to
|what goes in between braces since C# gets layered sometimes in terms of
code
|blocks.  Books demonstrate examples well, however, they do not do a very
good
|job telling you where braces go to begin with and why.  Responses would be
|great on this.  Thanks.
|
|
|
|

RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces in C#?

[Bill McCarthy]

Hi Katherine,

C# does not have the power of C++. C# is a managed language: it has
basically the same power as VB (.NET).   What C# shares with C++ is it is
a C style language: that is a lot of the styling and grammar are similar.
And C in the old days was renowned for obfuscated code competitions.  The
issue of style in C languages, has caused many wasted hours: so much so
there's even tools such as style cop that are designed to help address the
development process/maintenance. So yes there is a lot of freedom with the
braces; hence there are third party tools designed to reign in those
freedoms.

As to VB equating to malware: well I guess you don't know the history of app
development. VB does have a rich history; today I still see programs written
in VB6, including major commercial software in Australia (eg MYOB Retail
Manager), lots of internal business applications etc. Macro language for
Microsoft Office and Visual Studio has been VB (for Applications), and even
Reporting services function have to be written in VB .NET : no C# (at least
last time I looked).  The only malware aspect might be the days of old
when macros and client side scripts (.vbs) had to be in VBA or VBScript.
Actually, come to think of it, Microsoft's AntiMalware product (defender?)
actually came for ma third party company they bought, and it was originally
all written in VB: It was re-written in C++, not C#

Anyway, if you choose a C style language, then you choose those freedoms,
and issues that come with it. Some people even go as far as to try to
comment the braces so as what it is closing. At the end of the day if you
need that, you really have to ask why choose that style of language ;)



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
|Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 1:34 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces
in
|C#?
|
|Please correct me if I am wrong on this.  You're telling me that braces are
free for
|the programmer to place them where they want in C#?  I know that in most of
|the demos I have from books, there are always braces in particular places
every
|time with no fail.  Is this a C# convention, or is this a standard that
Wily is using?
|For instance:
|
|Namespace Demo
|
|{
|
|Static void main(string [] args)
|
|}
|
|{
|
|Console.WriteLine(this is a demo);
|
|Console.ReadKey();
|
|}
|
|}
|
|}
|
|Or something like that.  I'm not sure since I don't have the file open in
front of
|me, but are you saying that is just a chosen way of writing it and that
people are
|relatively free with braces?  And about other languages.  I chose C#
because it
|offers the power of C++ without the complexity.  And I plan to learn F# as
well
|one of these days, though isn't that more of a math language for
calculation
|programs and such like that?  But thanks to Roslyn, I can learn easier with
C#
|interactive.  And I don't use VB for moral reasons.  No offense to those on
this list
|who love it, but isn't it kind of the malware author's language?
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards
|Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:50 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces
in
|C#?
|
|
|
|I'd also add that braces, parentheses, or anything that comes in pairs,
should be
|inserted at the same time.  ie, immediately type your opening and closing
braces
|and then move your insertion point in between them.  If you're putting
existing
|code in new braces, you still try to do this as a single operation.  either
be careful
|to put them in the correct place at that time, checking to make sure they
are, or
|have them inserted for you.  eg, select the code, CTRL + K + X, select
Visual C#,
|then select what you want, such as if.
|
|
|
|I do all of this and the only time I've ever had mismatched braces is by
|accidentally deleting one.
|
|
|
|
|David
|
|If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes  will fall like a
house of
|cards... checkmate!
| -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
|
|
|
|

RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces in C#?

[Bill McCarthy]

Okay, that's a different reason than what was previously given ;)  If you
are having trouble with brace matching, hard to see how that is more
readable.  But more to the point, you've really answered your own original
question: if the projects you are involved in don't let you choose the
language, it is unlikely they'd let you dictate the style. So what you
should aim for is consistency, and in the projects you are working with,
consistency with the style(s) used in the existing code.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
|Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 2:30 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces
in
|C#?
|
|I selected C# over VB because in my opinion, C# is a lot more readable than
VB is,
|and every application in .net that I am in any way associated with uses C#,
I think.
|So it would be impractical for me to learn a language for a project if a
project
|uses another language, right?
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ian Thomas
|Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:11 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces
in
|C#?
|
|
|
|My suggestion would extend on Bill's: write some example code in VB.NET, to
get
|familiar with .NET assemblies etc - then use one of the code translators to
see
|the equivalent in C#. That will give you a start in first laying out the
obvious code
|structure (VB is much more explanatory / verbose in that regard), and
comparing
|what C# requires for code structures (beyond the braces) is educational as
well.
|
|Once your code becomes more complex, you won't want to use the
write-in-VB-
|and-translate approach: mainly because you will either recognize the
inherent
|superiority of VB.NET over C# J and/or the free / demo VB to C# translators
can't
|handle some more complex code.
|
|
|
|Ian Thomas
|
|Victoria Park, Western Australia
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 8:45 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces
in
|C#?
|
|If looking for a programing language that is more suited to a text reader,
|
|then I'd suggest VB, where blocks are more self descriptive, eg:  If ...
|
|Then ... Else .. End If.

RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces in C#?

[Bill McCarthy]

Text Editor Options for indenting, new line rules etc.
Brace completion is Productivity Power Tools options.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
|Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 3:20 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces
in
|C#?
|
|Oh okay.  That makes sense.  And just so I know.  Tell me again how to
allow
|Visual Studio 2012 to auto-insert the closing braces and other things in
pairs.  It's
|with the Power Tools Extension, right?  I was looking at that, though I
couldn't
|seem to find that particular set of options, for that would certainly make
my life
|easier.
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards
|Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:42 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: does anyone know a good technique to keep track of your braces
in
|C#?
|
|
|
|They don't quite go anywhere you want.  They can go in far more places than
are
|actually necessary but let not worry about that for now.  You have a set
for the
|namespace. You have a set for each method or property in that namespace.
You
|have a set for any compound statements. You have a set for any array
|initialisation.  I've probably forgotten some cases at the moment but
that's
|probably 99% of cases there.  You can also, for example, put them in case
|statements within a switch (oh yeah, switch statements have them as well)
but
|the break statement makes them superfluous.  Although it would probably
make
|them more consistent.
|
|
|
|Hmm, it's entirely possible I'm not understanding what you're saying.
|
|
|
|
|David
|
|If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes  will fall like a
house of
|cards... checkmate!
| -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
|
|
|
|On 14 February 2013 13:33, Katherine Moss katherine.m...@gordon.edu
|wrote:
|
|Please correct me if I am wrong on this.  You're telling me that braces are
free for
|the programmer to place them where they want in C#?  I know that in most of
|the demos I have from books, there are always braces in particular places
every
|time with no fail.  Is this a C# convention, or is this a standard that
Wily is using?
|For instance:
|
|Namespace Demo
|
|{
|
|Static void main(string [] args)
|
|}
|
|{
|
|Console.WriteLine(this is a demo);
|
|Console.ReadKey();
|
|}
|
|}
|
|}
|
|Or something like that.  I'm not sure since I don't have the file open in
front of
|me, but are you saying that is just a chosen way of writing it and that
people are
|relatively free with braces?  And about other languages.  I chose C#
because it
|offers the power of C++ without the complexity.  And I plan to learn F# as
well
|one of these days, though isn't that more of a math language for
calculation
|programs and such like that?  But thanks to Roslyn, I can learn easier with
C#
|interactive.  And I don't use VB for moral reasons.  No offense to those on
this list
|who love it, but isn't it kind of the malware author's language?
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards
|Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:50 PM
|
|

RE: [OT] Office 2010 and windows 8 possible or what will work?

[Bill McCarthy]

Just completed adding the finishing touches to a clean install of Win8. I
installed only Outlook 2010 from Office 2010, then installed Office 2013.
Outlook 2013 has bugs in it that prevent my contacts list synchronising
properly and I can't stand the limited colour schemes, so it's Outlook 2010
for me.  All seems good, the only thing I had to do was copy winword.exe to
the Office14 directory to allow in spelling correction as you type. I'm
guessing a zero sized file would have worked too.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of ifum...@gmail.com
|Sent: Friday, 18 January 2013 11:42 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: [OT] Office 2010 and windows 8 possible or what will work?
|
|Anyone know if office 2010 works on windows 8 or is there a compatible
version
|for it?
|
|
|
|
|
|Anthony
|
|
|
|

RE: [OT] God Mode for Windows 8

[Bill McCarthy]

Hi Katherine,

Have you tried windows 8?

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Katherine Moss
Sent: 25/11/2012 6:42 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] God Mode for Windows 8

Not really LOL.  Just sounds like a bunch of numbers as any human being would 
read them.

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Ian Thomas
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:13 PM
To: 'ozDotNet'
Subject: RE: [OT] God Mode for Windows 8

Katherine - that GUID must sound weird!


Ian Thomas
Victoria Park, Western Australia

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com 
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:46 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] God Mode for Windows 8

I did it on Windows 7 with no problem.  Now all I have to do is figure out how 
to select an empty area on the desktop via the keyboard. I'm blind, you know.

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com 
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Kinnear
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 3:16 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] God Mode for Windows 8

Do not do this on Vista 64. You will get an endless crash window. The only way 
out is to delete the folder via command prompt.

- Stuart


On 23 November 2012 19:08, Ian Thomas 
il.tho...@iinet.net.aumailto:il.tho...@iinet.net.au wrote:
Friday nonsense: I didn't know about this until recently - apparently it works 
in Vista+ (certainly OK in Win7)
http://www.windows8update.com/2012/11/22/tip-access-the-hidden-godmode-in-windows-8/


Ian Thomas
Victoria Park, Western Australia



--
-
Stuart Kinnear
Mobile: 040 704 5686.   Office: 03 9589 6502

SK Pro-Active! Pty Ltd
acn. 81 072 778 262
PO Box 6117 Cromer, Vic 3193. Australia

Business software developers.
SQL Server, Visual Basic, C# , Asp.Net, Microsoft Office.
-

RE: [OT] Really bad Telstra phone reception

[Bill McCarthy]

See if this applies:

http://www.telstra.com.au/business-enterprise/help-support/announcements/



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright
|Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 12:55 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: [OT] Really bad Telstra phone reception
|
|Hi all,
|
|
|
|I am now experiencing really bad Telstra phone signal. It used to be
fantastic, but
|is now appalling. I think they've deliberately downgraded the mobile phone
|network to make their 4G look better, but those of us that don't feel the
need to
|upgrade our phones just yet are expected to suck it up. Is there anything
we can
|do about it?
|
|
|
|Regards,
|
|Tony

RE: [OT] Really bad Telstra phone reception

[Bill McCarthy]

I'd double check that the Omnia 7 is actually a Next-G device. Is there
anyone near you with a Telstra phone that is working well?

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright
|Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 1:36 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: [OT] Really bad Telstra phone reception
|
|Well it's a Samsung Omnia 7 and I thought it was on NextG. I just
re-registered it
|on the network and it's still showing Edge and sometime just bars (so
generic 3G I
|guess).
|Of course, I'm in Fitzroy North, so only about 4 kms from the GPO so I
would have
|thought the signal, and choices, would be better.
|I reckon they've decommissioned it for me, or whatever band it's using now
is
|hopeless.
|T.
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com]
|On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 1:16 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: [OT] Really bad Telstra phone reception
|
|See if this applies:
|
|http://www.telstra.com.au/business-enterprise/help-support/announcements/
|
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright
||Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 12:55 PM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: [OT] Really bad Telstra phone reception
||
||Hi all,
||
||
||
||I am now experiencing really bad Telstra phone signal. It used to be
|fantastic, but
||is now appalling. I think they've deliberately downgraded the mobile
||phone network to make their 4G look better, but those of us that don't
||feel the
|need to
||upgrade our phones just yet are expected to suck it up. Is there
||anything
|we can
||do about it?
||
||
||
||Regards,
||
||Tony
|

RE: LINQ question

[Bill McCarthy]

Wouldn't a simple Join do what you want ?


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Arjang Assadi
|Sent: Friday, 27 July 2012 11:08 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: LINQ question
|
|I have a question similar to Greg's, but instead of one id, what is the
best way to
|deal with  a list of Id's and return everything that matched?
|Of course one can use a for loop for the id's, but is there a way to deal
with list of
|id's in one go? What would the generated Sql look like?
|
|
|Regards
|
|Arjang

RE: no more Macros for VS2012!

[Bill McCarthy]

You can vote on it on uservoice :
http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/2650757-bring-back-macros

Also note you can still extend the IDE and write add-ins: it's not a RAD as 
macros though and there's no macro recording. So not as easy to write them or 
discover, but if you have existing macros it shouldn't be that hard to wrap 
them into a package. 

Definitely vote for it if it impacts you: add your voice !

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of djones...@gmail.com
|Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2012 5:26 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: no more Macros for VS2012!
|
|Nooo.
|
|I have a bunch of macros that automatically fix stylecop and code analysis 
errors.
|I will have to do that by hand from now on?
|
|Disappointed Davy
|Hexed into a portable ouija board.
|
|
|From: Arjang Assadi arjang.ass...@gmail.com
|Sender: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
|Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:56:55 +1000
|To: ozDotNetozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
|ReplyTo: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
|Subject: no more Macros for VS2012!
|
|FYI Evryone who uses macros, they are gone from VS 11 since less than 1% of
|people were using them:
|http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vsx/thread/d8410838-085b-
|4647-8c42-e31b669c9f11/
|�
|But as one of the posts pointed out they were being used by super users that
|most likely would turn off the usage data gathering features.
|�
|Regards
|�
|Arjang

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

LOL. I guess you still don't get it. You made a guess, not an informed one.
There wasn't information out there that led one way or another; although as
cited, there was plenty of people informed who thought it would be an
upgrade.  Yes it turns out you guessed right (perhaps after the fact or not
as we don't have any history of you saying either way earlier ;) ), but that
guess was not an informed guess. That's why I asked you to cite references
to what made your guess informed.

Anyway, like I said I think this has now got beyond the stage of dead
donkey. Have a think about it, do the research and hopefully you won't be so
shocked anymore ;)  

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of .net noobie
|Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 2:58 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|yeah, so i said what i said... rumours
|
|but i was a bit shocked becuase I assumed people on this list would have
been
|more informed than me and i had made the assumption that upgrades would not
|be happening
|
|if you took the comments the wrong way, then you took them the wrong way
but
|it was not ment to upset you or anyone else
|
|
|
|On 27 June 2012 09:06, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
wrote:
| I think this is pretty much said already (i.e starting to feel like
| dead donkey),
|
| |Well if you read my original comments I never claimed anything but
| |rumours/speculation
|
| Yes this is what you said:
|
|So, if wp7 apps run on wp8, I personally not really sure why people
|seem
| to so upset,
| everyone know wp8 would come out, was rumours for quite a while
| would be totally different, so not really a shock you can not update
| wp7 device to
| wp8
|
| To me that read dismissive of the many people who have raised concerns
| about the lack of upgrade based on the fact you feel/felt it shouldn't
| be a shock to them.  Clearly when you look at the facts there was
| speculation both ways.
|
| I'd even hazard a guess that if there are any current sales of WP
| between now and when WP8 devices launch, those people who buy them
| probably don't know there won't be an incompatibility with WP8 apps
| until they try to load the latest games/apps and can't.
|
|
|
| |-Original Message-
| |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
| |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of .net noobie
| |Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012 5:58 PM
| |To: ozDotNet
| |Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
| |
| |Well if you read my original comments I never claimed anything but
| |rumours/speculation
| |
| |I then said the  rumours/speculation were for both sides of the
| |argumet
| |
| |I then said I made my Asumptions/Guess from them,
| |
| |I never claimed anyone knew ahead of time, including myself
| |
| |feels a bit like I am in a court case becuase I remember crap I
| read/saw/listened
| |to a year+ ago
| |
| |I not sure if WP8 will be a success or not, but seems to me like they
| |are
| going to
| |have the advantage in respect to having PC's, Tablets and Phones all
| running the
| |same basically OS potentially giving the tablet and phone all the
| abilities/features
| |of a PC run the same programs, open the same documents, same scurity
| |stuff
| etc
| |etc accross the board, same ability to manage the devices so maybe
| |this
| will be
| |somthing companies like, that is the what i have gathered anyway, if
| |it is
| correct i
| |don't know
| |
| |I am not MS, but i would like to see them put apple in back in their
| |box
| |
| |As far as I am concerned all apple do is package old tech in a nice
| |cover
| and claim
| |it is some new wiz bang device then get it made by kids in a factory
| |in
| china with,
| |then charge 3 times it's value to suckers
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |On 26 June 2012 13:26, Bill McCarthy
| |bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
| wrote:
| | Okay so I read the post on Microsoft forums you kindly linked to,
| | and one of the responses marked as an answer said yes the lumia
| | would be upgradable to win8
| |
| | Really, all that was there was some speculation//wild-a-guessing.
| | Let's jump forward a couple of month to Feb/March this year when
| | there was a lot of speculation over the same thing:
| | http://www.neowin.net/news/some-current-windows-phone-devices-to-ge
| | t-a
| | pollo
| |
| | Again neither confirm or deny from Microsoft, but some rumours that
| | it would upgrade.
| |
| | And when I see the Windows Team blog posting showing Windows 8
| | running on a currently available Windows Phone, then any
| | speculation that it can't be done is clearly wrong.
| |
| | But I think the key point I'm trying to make here is that the claim
| | people knew ahead of time it wouldn't be upgraded is clearly false.
| | Clearly a lot of people thought it would. And for the average
| | consumer, I think they'd expect the same. If I went and bought a
| | Samsung Galaxy SII, guess what it's getting updated to ICS tomorrow

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Hi David Thiessen,

|so... no not after the fact, as much as your ego would like to think it
is
|
|seriously, get over it, you act like a child who's mummy will not buy him a
lollie in
|the supermarket
|
|yeah and you can't read, thats what i said i assumed
|
|you need to get over your self mate, have a cry mybe


Okay, that's EOC here.  If you want to email me of list or discuss this face
to face feel free to email me directly at b...@totalenviro.com

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Hi Stephen,

Yes phones will be out of date, the question is whether it is months or
years. In Australia, typical contracts are 24 months, and I'm pretty sure
the ACCC told telcos they had to warranty devices for the length of the
contracts. So two years is fair to expect to be a current lifetime;
obviously there will be hardware improvements in that time, but the software
and apps available you'd reasonably expect to be current. Apple deal with
that by controlling the release dates of devices to a new device a year and
OS support roughly of +1: hence you can be sure to get two years of being
current.  Android has been all over the place, but the big players such as
Samsung are also moving to give that period of currency by providing OS
updates (eg Galaxy II).  For Windows Phone there isn't that. 

Personally the thing about this I dislike the most is not the fate of my own
phone (I do like my lumia), but that I can no longer recommend to people
they currently buy a windows phone. This is the real shame. It'd be a lot
better if people could upgrade: would probably still be worth waiting for
the newer devices for NFC. The sooner they get the new devices out the
better.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 8:29 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Why don't you two get a room? :)
|
|In an attempt to throw petrol onto a cooling fire, Microsoft don't have to
make
|new devices backward compatible. Or forward compatible.
|They make decisions, like any project, on what new releases mean. I don't
think
|that assuming people will be happy to upgrade their phone for a newer
improved
|one is a bad one to make. These days the majority of phones end up in a
draw
|somewhere in less than three years. The phones cost almost nothing (if you
are
|on a plan where you got your phone for $0 and you get to the end of the
contract
|period, they don't make your plan cheaper for example.) You get the option
to
|upgrade to a newer phone. If your phone is older than 2 years old then
phones
|are not that important to you (or you're money priorities lay elsewhere)
and no
|amount of new features would compel you to upgrade.
|
|I, for example, have three phones. Android, Iphone, and Windows phone 7.
Thats
|just the phones I carry in my bag, I have no idea how many phones I have at
home
|in the draw somewhere.
|
|Your phone will be out of date. Its just a question of how long that will
take. I'm
|kinda stunned that's news.
|
|As for you two fighting over what information was available, and what
|assumptions people made about if they can upgrade their new phone or not.
|heheh... it really really must tick you off. I'm not taking sides, I don't
care. It's
|been too long since anyone's butted heads on this list so, good times!
We'll all
|look back on this and laugh. If you have any sense. Take a dp breath,
and
|step outside. You know, outside where there's sunshine and people walking
about
|without computers n stuff. :) We're all in this together, ya know.
|
|And Go.
|
|On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:15 PM, .net noobie dotnetnoo...@gmail.com
|wrote:
| what you not happy to basically call me  a liar on the list?
|
| you want meet face to face now... what to have a fight?
|
| over a telephone???
|
| I am not the one who has the problem bill, i am fine thanks
|
|
| On 27 June 2012 15:03, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
wrote:
|
| Hi David Thiessen,
|
| |so... no not after the fact, as much as your ego would like to think
| |it
| is
| |
| |seriously, get over it, you act like a child who's mummy will not
| |buy him a
| lollie in
| |the supermarket
| |
| |yeah and you can't read, thats what i said i assumed
| |
| |you need to get over your self mate, have a cry mybe
|
|
| Okay, that's EOC here.  If you want to email me of list or discuss
| this face to face feel free to email me directly at
| b...@totalenviro.com
|
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

For Microsoft it will hurt phone sales. Depending how well WinRT tablets
sell will be the pre-curser to the phone moving again. I think it will be a
bit of a mixed bag with Windows 8.  There'll probably be some push back from
desktop based environments, but the exception to that will be businesses
using a lot of devices where the phone and tablet do a make a compelling
reason to standardise on the platform.

With Windows 8, again a lot of people think Microsoft could have made it a
lot better experience for Windows users without sacrificing any of the
immersive experience for tablet users. For Windows Phone 8, many also think
Microsoft could have done a lot better job. The Windows 8 core should
however, combined with the negative feedback they've got on the lack of
upgrade, really make it a lot less likely the same mistakes will be made
again.

As to the discussion on this list, I think it would have been over long ago
if it weren't for some claiming everyone should have known better, or others
claiming it was okay due to starving people elsewhere in the world ;)

It would have been nice to see some technical discussion as to what the
hurdles are to providing the upgrade to existing devices.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 9:25 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I know where you are coming from. There is a cost for a company when they
|abandon a product. To this day, I will never buy a HP again. They abandoned
my
|laser printer and my palm pilot. Printer works fine, if I stay with windows
XP. It
|actually won't work anymore. There's probably some fine print somewhere
|saying to bad, I'm on my own there.
|
|My Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 is still waiting for an Ice Cream Sandwich
update. I
|could put it on there myself if I want the pain that goes with that. Or buy
one of
|their new products that has ICS. Marketing ploy or are they just busy
making it
|work properly so the support calls don't come in when they roll it out?
|
|I'm not saying its a good thing but Microsoft are not the first to do this.
Won't be
|the last. It's still being driven by humans, and we aren't perfect.
|
|The real question is, so what are you going to do about it? Complain on
here on
|this list or go and do something about it?
|
|Still can't believe Scott dragged my face into this. That's just low. ;)
|
|On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:
| Hi Stephen,
|
| Yes phones will be out of date, the question is whether it is months
| or years. In Australia, typical contracts are 24 months, and I'm
| pretty sure the ACCC told telcos they had to warranty devices for the
| length of the contracts. So two years is fair to expect to be a
| current lifetime; obviously there will be hardware improvements in
| that time, but the software and apps available you'd reasonably expect
| to be current. Apple deal with that by controlling the release dates
| of devices to a new device a year and OS support roughly of +1: hence
| you can be sure to get two years of being current.  Android has been
| all over the place, but the big players such as Samsung are also
| moving to give that period of currency by providing OS updates (eg Galaxy
|II).  For Windows Phone there isn't that.
|
| Personally the thing about this I dislike the most is not the fate of
| my own phone (I do like my lumia), but that I can no longer recommend
| to people they currently buy a windows phone. This is the real shame.
| It'd be a lot better if people could upgrade: would probably still be
| worth waiting for the newer devices for NFC. The sooner they get the
| new devices out the better.
|
|
| |-Original Message-
| |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
| |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
| |Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 8:29 PM
| |To: ozDotNet
| |Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
| |
| |Why don't you two get a room? :)
| |
| |In an attempt to throw petrol onto a cooling fire, Microsoft don't
| |have to
| make
| |new devices backward compatible. Or forward compatible.
| |They make decisions, like any project, on what new releases mean. I
| |don't
| think
| |that assuming people will be happy to upgrade their phone for a newer
| improved
| |one is a bad one to make. These days the majority of phones end up in
| |a
| draw
| |somewhere in less than three years. The phones cost almost nothing
| |(if you
| are
| |on a plan where you got your phone for $0 and you get to the end of
| |the
| contract
| |period, they don't make your plan cheaper for example.) You get the
| |option
| to
| |upgrade to a newer phone. If your phone is older than 2 years old
| |then
| phones
| |are not that important to you (or you're money priorities lay
| |elsewhere)
| and no
| |amount of new features would compel you to upgrade.
| |
| |I, for example, have

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Okay so I read the post on Microsoft forums you kindly linked to, and one of
the responses marked as an answer said yes the lumia would be upgradable to
win8

Really, all that was there was some speculation//wild-a-guessing. Let's jump
forward a couple of month to Feb/March this year when there was a lot of
speculation over the same thing:
http://www.neowin.net/news/some-current-windows-phone-devices-to-get-apollo

Again neither confirm or deny from Microsoft, but some rumours that it would
upgrade.

And when I see the Windows Team blog posting showing Windows 8 running on a
currently available Windows Phone, then any speculation that it can't be
done is clearly wrong.

But I think the key point I'm trying to make here is that the claim people
knew ahead of time it wouldn't be upgraded is clearly false. Clearly a lot
of people thought it would. And for the average consumer, I think they'd
expect the same. If I went and bought a Samsung Galaxy SII, guess what it's
getting updated to ICS tomorrow. If I bought an iphone 4, guess what, you
can update it to iOS 5 (iPhone 4s), and even the latest iOS 6 which is in
beta.

The only reason people might expect WP nto to update because Microsoft has
begun to build a history of dumping support for existing devices. Win mobile
just three years ago, Zune, Microsoft Kin, now WP7.XX.  Just how high do
they rate consumer confidence ?  Really, it's no wonder that although WP is
really nice it remains such a small market share (and most likely to plummet
even further over the coming months).  

It's no wonder Apple and Samsung are doing so well ;)



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of .net noobie
|Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012 3:59 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|nov 2011
|http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/winphone/forum/wp7-
|wpdevices/windows-phone-7-or-wait-for-wp8/9abda28c-5181-4b7f-8f5b-
|d4a46a3408e1?msgId=1cb925ea-4347-4482-add2-1a2f7ef4939a
|
|windows weekly podcast / winsupersite, as i said before
|
|talking to people on twitter
|
|etc,
|
|the net is a big place
|
|I said rumors on blogs...  not major review sites
|
|but i don't recall exact sites/pages i was looking at upto and beyond a
year ago
|but this debate has been happing for quite a while online, I was thinking
the
|arguments for not being upgradable sounded more like it
|
|
|
|
|On 26 June 2012 11:38, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
wrote:
| That wasn't a contest either. I seriously asked you to cite some
| references as I aren't seeing any. When I google searched the top
| listed sites at best could say there were big changes coming but none
| that suggested the latest phones wouldn't upgrade. I don't recall
| seeing any phone reviews that in their review of the latest WP said
| there was a concern/rumour it wouldn't be upgradable.
|
| |-Original Message-
| |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
| |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of dotnet noobie
| |Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012 2:14 PM
| |To: ozDotNet
| |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
| |
| |I mean not a contest about who reads what blog, listens to what
| |podcast,
| etc
| |
| |I was not talking about the smart phone market
| |
| |Sent from my Windows Phone
| |
| |
| |
| |From: mike smith
| |Sent: 26-Jun-12 10:00
| |To: ozDotNet
| |Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
| |
| |
| |On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 6:33 PM, .net noobie dotnetnoo...@gmail.com
| |wrote:
| |
| |
| |       Well, this is not a compitition
| |
| |
| |Oh, but the marketplace *is* a competition :)
| |
| |
| |
| |       and I not claming to be an expert on it, but I was under the
| impression
| |quite a while ago that people would not be able to upgrade the wp7
| |devices
| to
| |wp8,
| |       I don't even follow it very closely, I really just lisen to
| |the one
| podcast i
| |mentioned before, thats it, but I also googled it and saw people
| |debating
| it as far
| |back as mid to end of 2011
| |
| |       I also bet you did not see anywhere from Nokia or MS that you
| | would
| be
| |able to upgrade a wp7 device to wp8 either?
| |
| |
| |I wasn't looking, but Apple, for instance, offer a deal where you get
| |some
| form of
| |recompense when buying an obsoleted ! item within a certain time of a
| |new release.
| |
| |
| |
| |       If the current devices have enough grunt or not to run a wp8
| | OS, I
| have
| |no idea, i just said is something I assumed would be the case if MS
| |wanted
| to
| |basically run win8 on a phone...
| |       I not saying they can or cannot, I am saying this was my guess
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |Or were they pressured by carriers?   They more often support handset
| |churn
| than
| |the SW manufacturers.  From Microsoft's perspective, there's nothing
| |to
| gain and
| |everything to lose by doing this.  (I exaggerate a bit)
| |
| |       but i think the min spec for wp7

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

I think this is pretty much said already (i.e starting to feel like dead
donkey), 

|Well if you read my original comments I never claimed anything but
|rumours/speculation

Yes this is what you said:

So, if wp7 apps run on wp8, I personally not really sure why people seem
to so upset,
 everyone know wp8 would come out, was rumours for quite a while would be 
 totally different, so not really a shock you can not update wp7 device to
wp8

To me that read dismissive of the many people who have raised concerns about
the lack of upgrade based on the fact you feel/felt it shouldn't be a shock
to them.  Clearly when you look at the facts there was speculation both
ways.

I'd even hazard a guess that if there are any current sales of WP between
now and when WP8 devices launch, those people who buy them probably don't
know there won't be an incompatibility with WP8 apps until they try to load
the latest games/apps and can't.



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of .net noobie
|Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012 5:58 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Well if you read my original comments I never claimed anything but
|rumours/speculation
|
|I then said the  rumours/speculation were for both sides of the argumet
|
|I then said I made my Asumptions/Guess from them,
|
|I never claimed anyone knew ahead of time, including myself
|
|feels a bit like I am in a court case becuase I remember crap I
read/saw/listened
|to a year+ ago
|
|I not sure if WP8 will be a success or not, but seems to me like they are
going to
|have the advantage in respect to having PC's, Tablets and Phones all
running the
|same basically OS potentially giving the tablet and phone all the
abilities/features
|of a PC run the same programs, open the same documents, same scurity stuff
etc
|etc accross the board, same ability to manage the devices so maybe this
will be
|somthing companies like, that is the what i have gathered anyway, if it is
correct i
|don't know
|
|I am not MS, but i would like to see them put apple in back in their box
|
|As far as I am concerned all apple do is package old tech in a nice cover
and claim
|it is some new wiz bang device then get it made by kids in a factory in
china with,
|then charge 3 times it's value to suckers
|
|
|
|
|
|On 26 June 2012 13:26, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
wrote:
| Okay so I read the post on Microsoft forums you kindly linked to, and
| one of the responses marked as an answer said yes the lumia would be
| upgradable to win8
|
| Really, all that was there was some speculation//wild-a-guessing.
| Let's jump forward a couple of month to Feb/March this year when there
| was a lot of speculation over the same thing:
| http://www.neowin.net/news/some-current-windows-phone-devices-to-get-a
| pollo
|
| Again neither confirm or deny from Microsoft, but some rumours that it
| would upgrade.
|
| And when I see the Windows Team blog posting showing Windows 8 running
| on a currently available Windows Phone, then any speculation that it
| can't be done is clearly wrong.
|
| But I think the key point I'm trying to make here is that the claim
| people knew ahead of time it wouldn't be upgraded is clearly false.
| Clearly a lot of people thought it would. And for the average
| consumer, I think they'd expect the same. If I went and bought a
| Samsung Galaxy SII, guess what it's getting updated to ICS tomorrow.
| If I bought an iphone 4, guess what, you can update it to iOS 5
| (iPhone 4s), and even the latest iOS 6 which is in beta.
|
| The only reason people might expect WP nto to update because Microsoft
| has begun to build a history of dumping support for existing devices.
| Win mobile just three years ago, Zune, Microsoft Kin, now WP7.XX.
| Just how high do they rate consumer confidence ?  Really, it's no
| wonder that although WP is really nice it remains such a small market
| share (and most likely to plummet even further over the coming months).
|
| It's no wonder Apple and Samsung are doing so well ;)
|
|
|
| |-Original Message-
| |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
| |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of .net noobie
| |Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012 3:59 PM
| |To: ozDotNet
| |Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
| |
| |nov 2011
| |http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/winphone/forum/wp7-
| |wpdevices/windows-phone-7-or-wait-for-wp8/9abda28c-5181-4b7f-8f5b-
| |d4a46a3408e1?msgId=1cb925ea-4347-4482-add2-1a2f7ef4939a
| |
| |windows weekly podcast / winsupersite, as i said before
| |
| |talking to people on twitter
| |
| |etc,
| |
| |the net is a big place
| |
| |I said rumors on blogs...  not major review sites
| |
| |but i don't recall exact sites/pages i was looking at upto and beyond
| |a
| year ago
| |but this debate has been happing for quite a while online, I was
| |thinking
| the
| |arguments for not being upgradable sounded more like it
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |On 26

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

That wasn't a contest either. I seriously asked you to cite some references
as I aren't seeing any. When I google searched the top listed sites at best
could say there were big changes coming but none that suggested the latest
phones wouldn't upgrade. I don't recall seeing any phone reviews that in
their review of the latest WP said there was a concern/rumour it wouldn't be
upgradable.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of dotnet noobie
|Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2012 2:14 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I mean not a contest about who reads what blog, listens to what podcast,
etc
|
|I was not talking about the smart phone market
|
|Sent from my Windows Phone
|
|
|
|From: mike smith
|Sent: 26-Jun-12 10:00
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 6:33 PM, .net noobie dotnetnoo...@gmail.com
|wrote:
|
|
|   Well, this is not a compitition
|
|
|Oh, but the marketplace *is* a competition :)
|
|
|
|   and I not claming to be an expert on it, but I was under the
impression
|quite a while ago that people would not be able to upgrade the wp7 devices
to
|wp8,
|   I don't even follow it very closely, I really just lisen to the one
podcast i
|mentioned before, thats it, but I also googled it and saw people debating
it as far
|back as mid to end of 2011
|
|   I also bet you did not see anywhere from Nokia or MS that you would
be
|able to upgrade a wp7 device to wp8 either?
|
|
|I wasn't looking, but Apple, for instance, offer a deal where you get some
form of
|recompense when buying an obsoleted ! item within a certain time of a new
|release.
|
|
|
|   If the current devices have enough grunt or not to run a wp8 OS, I
have
|no idea, i just said is something I assumed would be the case if MS wanted
to
|basically run win8 on a phone...
|   I not saying they can or cannot, I am saying this was my guess
|
|
|
|
|Or were they pressured by carriers?   They more often support handset churn
than
|the SW manufacturers.  From Microsoft's perspective, there's nothing to
gain and
|everything to lose by doing this.  (I exaggerate a bit)
|
|   but i think the min spec for wp7 was a 1ghz cpu? correct? and i
maybe
|wrong here but did they even lower the spec a little after/for mango 7.5?
|
|   Anyway I can understand why people are annoyed, especially if you
just
|got a new phone,
|   I got mine the week they came out and I am not really happy either,
but I
|guess I got used to the idea I could not upgrade it already
|
|
|
|
|I still want to know if Microsoft are releasing a phone that will run 8,
and that
|they will undertake to do online upgrades for, in the same way Apple do,
and
|Android do (for their 'concept' phones, aka Nexus line)  Got an answer for
that,
|Microsoft dudes?
|
|
|
|   On 25 June 2012 13:17, mike smith meski...@gmail.com wrote:
|
|
|   A reasonable position would be if they issued a rebate for
those
|that bought WP7 in the last, say 6 months.  It might take the bitter taste
away for
|them, somewhat.
|
|   Mike
|
|
|   On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 2:46 PM, .net noobie
|dotnetnoo...@gmail.com wrote:
|
|
|   I just listen to podcasts like windows weekly, they
been
|saying it for
|   months, blogs etc, but, also were a lot people
claimig
|that it would
|   be upgradable
|
|   but I personally did not expect you would be able to
|upgrade, becuase
|   I was thinking the the phone was also going to try
and
|use the same
|   core as win8, so the phone would be different and
|current phones most
|   likely would not have the grunt to really do it, but
i did
|expect if
|   the phone was more like windows that they would be
|able to still run
|   the old apps
|
|   but if you google you will see people saying will
not be
|upgradable
|   from mid to end of last year, while others saying
that MS
|could not
|   cut off wp7 people becuase would kill the phone off
|
|
|
|
|
|   --
|   Meski
|
|
|
| http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv
|
|   Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for
sex.
|Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
|
|
|
|
|
|
|--
|Meski
|
|
| http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv
|
|Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure,
you'll get it,
|but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Hey Nick,

I guess this must be a bit like first timers compared to old timers. For the
new inmates the shower experience is going to leave them screaming for a
while but for the inmates who've been in for a while it's just another mild
pain in the a***  ;)


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Monday, 25 June 2012 11:48 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Ken
|
|
|
|Just be happy you're getting new start screen tiles - sorry but wtf, who
cares.
|
|
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does
not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or
opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer
|Sent: Monday, 25 June 2012 11:42 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|People are upset because they bought an expensive WP7 handset two weeks
ago,
|and then last week Microsoft says that they'll be obsolete in 3 months'
time.
|
|
|
|As for iPhones, at least Apple has some support for older devices. The
original
|iPad is upgradeable to iOS5. The iPhone 4 is still upgradeable to whatever
the
|iPhone 4S is running.
|
|
|
|Cheers
|
|Ken
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Thiessen
|Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2012 10:31 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|So, if wp7 apps run on wp8, I personally not really sure why people seem to
so
|upset, everyone know wp8 would come out, was rumours for quite a while
would
|be totally different, so not really a shock you can not update wp7 device
to wp8
|
|if you made wp7 apps, you can still sell them on wp8 device...
|
|It is not like you have a iPhone 3 you can upgrade it to iPhone 4
|
|Sent from my Windows Phone
|
|
|
|From: Nick Randolph
|Sent: 24-Jun-12 18:54
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Yes, one of the few things that was announced was that wp7 apps will
continue
|to work on wp8.
|
|
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does
not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or
opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Thiessen
|Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2012 8:25 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|I have whatsapp on WP7, works well
|
|Apps that run on wp7 will also run on wp8.. Correct?
|
|Sent from my Windows Phone
|
|
|
|From: Ken Schaefer
|Sent: 22-Jun-12 9:43
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Even if you could get hold of one, apps are missing.
|
|
|
|All those apps that let people stay in touch, or play games against each
other,
|have been very slow to come to WP (WhatsApp, HearTell, Words with Friends,
|Skype, that finger painting one that seems to be all the rage now)
|
|
|
|Cheers
|Ken
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:50 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|
|
|On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|To change tack a little, what in your opinion would be the top issues that
have led
|to the relatively poor uptake of Windows Phone over the last three years ?
|
|
|
|
|
|I think lack of availability is a big issue. When I walk through my local
shopping
|centre or browse catalogues I see WP7 get a lot of advertising. You can't
miss it.
|But if I go into a Telstra shop or typically phone shop I typically see on
the racks
|
|
|
|2 x iPhone (black  white)
|
|10 x Android
|
|1 (maybe 2) x WP7
|
|
|
|Doesn't matter how much you advertise if they are not on the shelves.
iPhone can
|get away with it because they are so well known now.
|
|
|
|Craig.

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Hi David,

| was rumours for quite a while would
|be totally different, so not really a shock you can not update wp7 device
to wp8

Really ?  I can't say I saw any such rumours and I read a reasonable amount
of tech news every day.  In fact as I posted in my blog, I read the Windows
8 team blog where they showed they used existing phones to do their initial
Windows RT testing on.  Where were these early rumours ?

And what of customers today? Shouldn't they be warned: I bet you they aren't
except for the people who are complaining. Sad that the customer awareness
has to come from rumours of rumours and those that are complainers.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Thiessen
|Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2012 10:31 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|So, if wp7 apps run on wp8, I personally not really sure why people seem to
so
|upset, everyone know wp8 would come out, was rumours for quite a while
would
|be totally different, so not really a shock you can not update wp7 device
to wp8
|
|if you made wp7 apps, you can still sell them on wp8 device...
|
|It is not like you have a iPhone 3 you can upgrade it to iPhone 4
|
|Sent from my Windows Phone
|
|
|
|From: Nick Randolph
|Sent: 24-Jun-12 18:54
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|Yes, one of the few things that was announced was that wp7 apps will
continue
|to work on wp8.
|
|
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP   Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does
not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or
opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Thiessen
|Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2012 8:25 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|I have whatsapp on WP7, works well
|
|Apps that run on wp7 will also run on wp8.. Correct?
|
|Sent from my Windows Phone
|
|
|
|From: Ken Schaefer
|Sent: 22-Jun-12 9:43
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Even if you could get hold of one, apps are missing.
|
|
|
|All those apps that let people stay in touch, or play games against each
other,
|have been very slow to come to WP (WhatsApp, HearTell, Words with Friends,
|Skype, that finger painting one that seems to be all the rage now)
|
|
|
|Cheers
|Ken
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:50 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|
|
|On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|To change tack a little, what in your opinion would be the top issues that
have led
|to the relatively poor uptake of Windows Phone over the last three years ?
|
|
|
|
|
|I think lack of availability is a big issue. When I walk through my local
shopping
|centre or browse catalogues I see WP7 get a lot of advertising. You can't
miss it.
|But if I go into a Telstra shop or typically phone shop I typically see on
the racks
|
|
|
|2 x iPhone (black  white)
|
|10 x Android
|
|1 (maybe 2) x WP7
|
|
|
|Doesn't matter how much you advertise if they are not on the shelves.
iPhone can
|get away with it because they are so well known now.
|
|
|
|Craig.

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Ha... in my days we have multi functional devices called pencils that allowed 
you to take notes, write mail, and dial on the latest rotary dial phones !

These days the lawns aren't safe to sit on due to sneaky silent robot mowers 
and popup sprinklers ;)


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Monday, 25 June 2012 12:09 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|In my days PDA's didn't have phones in them.
|
|PS:  get off of my lawn! :)
|
|
|On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:
|
|
|   Hey Nick,
|
|   I guess this must be a bit like first timers compared to old timers. 
For the
|   new inmates the shower experience is going to leave them screaming for
|a
|   while but for the inmates who've been in for a while it's just another 
mild
|   pain in the a***  ;)
|
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|   |Sent: Monday, 25 June 2012 11:48 AM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|
|   |Ken
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |Just be happy you're getting new start screen tiles - sorry but wtf, 
who
|
|   cares.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows
|Phone
|   |Development | +61 412 413 425 tel:%2B61%20412%20413%20425  |
|@btroam The information contained in this
|   |email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may 
not
|   disclose
|   |or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd
|does
|   not
|   |guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or
|   opinions
|   |expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or
|opinions of
|   Built
|   |to Roam Pty Ltd.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer
|   |Sent: Monday, 25 June 2012 11:42 AM
|   |To: 'ozDotNet'
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |People are upset because they bought an expensive WP7 handset two
|weeks
|   ago,
|   |and then last week Microsoft says that they'll be obsolete in 3 months'
|   time.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |As for iPhones, at least Apple has some support for older devices. The
|   original
|   |iPad is upgradeable to iOS5. The iPhone 4 is still upgradeable to
|whatever
|   the
|   |iPhone 4S is running.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |Cheers
|   |
|   |Ken
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Thiessen
|   |Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2012 10:31 PM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |So, if wp7 apps run on wp8, I personally not really sure why people 
seem
|to
|   so
|   |upset, everyone know wp8 would come out, was rumours for quite a
|while
|   would
|   |be totally different, so not really a shock you can not update wp7 
device
|   to wp8
|   |
|   |if you made wp7 apps, you can still sell them on wp8 device...
|   |
|   |It is not like you have a iPhone 3 you can upgrade it to iPhone 4
|   |
|   |Sent from my Windows Phone
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |From: Nick Randolph
|   |Sent: 24-Jun-12 18:54
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |Yes, one of the few things that was announced was that wp7 apps will
|   continue
|   |to work on wp8.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows
|Phone
|   |Development | +61 412 413 425 tel:%2B61%20412%20413%20425  |
|@btroam The information contained in this
|   |email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may 
not
|   disclose
|   |or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd
|does
|   not
|   |guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or
|   opinions
|   |expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or
|opinions of
|   Built
|   |to Roam Pty Ltd.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Thiessen
|   |Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2012 8:25 PM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |I have whatsapp on WP7, works well
|   |
|   |Apps that run on wp7

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Like I said, I do read technology news/blogs/ mags a bit and never saw any
mention of it not being upgradable. I did also google and set the time frame
back to pre April and also didn't see any major trend or sites saying it
wouldn't be upgradable.  Take your time and pick your best top 5 sources
from pre April that stated that.

The notion of not enough grunt I heard in a podcast yesterday and is utter
bullsh*t as far as I am concerned. The current 1.4 Ghz single core
processors aren't significantly behind the dual cores at 1.5 (1.7 I think is
the fastest snapdragon in production).
 If a 1.4 **can't** run it then a 1.5 dual core ain't going to be much of a
user experience.

But again, that argument of it not having enough grunt is one of the
rumours and not something I've heard from any Microsoft or Nokia source. In
fact, I'd say the entire discussions over the reasons why have been devoid
of technical merit. If there was a decent technical reason I doubt you'd see
as many people upset. 


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of .net noobie
|Sent: Monday, 25 June 2012 2:46 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I just listen to podcasts like windows weekly, they been saying it for
months,
|blogs etc, but, also were a lot people claimig that it would be upgradable
|
|but I personally did not expect you would be able to upgrade, becuase I was
|thinking the the phone was also going to try and use the same core as win8,
so
|the phone would be different and current phones most likely would not have
the
|grunt to really do it, but i did expect if the phone was more like
windows that
|they would be able to still run the old apps
|
|but if you google you will see people saying will not be upgradable from
mid to
|end of last year, while others saying that MS could not cut off wp7 people
|becuase would kill the phone off

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

|   Ok, Samsung Galaxy Note - buy outright $500 - buy on Telstra plan $1776
|over 24 months MINIMUM
|

Sure there's no deal with Telstra at present so the hardware repayments on the 
$49 cap plan are $25 a month, which is $600 all up. Difference there is -$100 
over two years, or $50 a year.  But take the example of the Lumia 800, which is 
still about $500 (although expect that to plummet rapidly after today's 
announcements)  At Telstra, it costs you an extra $10 per month, which is $240 
over the two year contract, so saving of $260 or $130 per year.




|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 3:59 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Bill McCarthy 
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|
|   |America seems to have more carrier locked and subsidised phones.
|Now we can
|   |buy them like that here, but it seems to work out better buying the
|phone
|   |separate from carrier.
|
|
|   Really ?   What price is the latest smart phone outright, about $600 ?
|Over 24 months, that's about $25 a month. The carriers generally only charge
|about half that with a package, so a saving of about $300 or more.
|
|
|   Ok, Samsung Galaxy Note - buy outright $500 - buy on Telstra plan $1776
|over 24 months MINIMUM
|
|
|
|http://www.telstra.com.au/latest-offers/samsung-galaxy-note/index.htm
|
|http://www.topbuy.com.au/tbcart/pc/Samsung-Galaxy-Note-N7000-I9220-
|Unlocked-Carbon-Blue-3g-And-Next-G-5-3-Inch-Mobile-Gps-Phone-
|p134153.htm?utm_source=TopBuy_Googleutm_medium=cpcutm_campaign=
|TBDF-XX86742
|
|Ok, you still need a plan to run the phone, but not one that costs near that 
much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|   |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:41 PM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|
|   |On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:13 PM, David Kean
|david.k...@microsoft.com
|   |wrote:
|   |
|   |
|   |   (This is my own opinion, please do not confuse it with 
Microsoft's,
|or as
|   |representing Microsoft's. While I contribute code to Phone 8, I don't
|work on the
|   |team, and am not privy to why behind their marketing/engineering
|decisions)
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |:)
|   |
|   |I'd comment on a gmail account were I you...  If I was commenting
|officially on
|   |HP matters I work with, I'd use my HP domained email.
|   |
|   |
|   |   Take a step back, how many years do you really think it will 
actually
|take
|   |for Phone 8 apps to become more prevalent than the Phone 7 apps?
|How many
|   |of you will have already replaced your phone by then?
|   |
|   |   It's been a while since I've owned a phone in Australia so I 
don't
|know
|   |how it works there, but in the US everyone gets a new phone every 18 -
|24
|   |months (depending on if the carrier lets you upgrade early), by the 
time
|Phone 8
|   |has released, and has enough apps to worry you, you'll already be at 
the
|start of
|   |a new upgrade cycle.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |America seems to have more carrier locked and subsidised phones.
|Now we can
|   |buy them like that here, but it seems to work out better buying the
|phone
|   |separate from carrier.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |   -Original Message-
|
|   |   From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|   |   Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:03 PM
|   |   To: 'ozDotNet'
|   |   Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |   Seriously ?   Is that the new Microsoft policy, just dump old
|customers ?  I
|   |   see they said 18 months of updates in regards to windows 8.
|   |
|   |   For me, I see Windows Phone as something that's evolving, and
|thought,
|   |and expected it, just like the iphone does, bring customers along with
|them, not
|   |just abandon them every three years or so (well last time it was three
|years
|   |   ago)
|   |
|   |   The sad part is I can't honestly tell people they should buy a
|windows
|   |phone today. And it's a paint to have to tell them, yes last week when 
I
|said to
|   |buy a windows phone that was all we knew, now we know your phone
|will be
|   |obsolete come September.
|   |
|   |
|   |   |-Original Message-
|   |   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|   |   |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 1:45 PM
|   |   |To: ozDotNet

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

The synergies Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 are going to bring are fantastic
and should be applauded. But getting the bus to the destination sooner
doesn't justify throwing a lot of the passengers off, especially when those
passengers are the ones that supported the bus whilst no-one else did.

Windows 8 on the tablet will rock. The desktop jarring experience we've seen
discussed here previously won't. There'll be a backlash which they could
have addressed a lot better.
Windows Phone 8 leaves the current Windows Phone story in purgatory yet
again, except this time they've said the current Windows Phones can go to
hell ;)  Loss of momentum in the mobile market is a huge thing. I doubt
Windows Phone will pick up until after tablet sales for Win 8 come in as
solid. I don't think it will be a warm and fuzzy xmas season for windows
phone.

I think the story for the desktop and existing windows phone customers could
be a lot better.  It's sad to see Nokia laying off staff rather than
investing in their people with Microsoft to invest in the people who
originally invested in them: their customers. Brand loyalty is a big thing.
(I'm reminded of the old Aesop fable about the dog with a bone seeing its
own reflection )


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:19 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I never thought I'd be the one to come to MS defence here but...
|
|(day of firsts for me clearly)..
|
|This is the ONLY move they have left to make if they truly want to compete.
I for
|one have been calling Microsoft a bunch of pu$$**ies for sitting on the
sidelines
|for far to long. They have been squandering their potential for way to many
years
|now around this entire discussion but .. and i say but lightly.. they have
however
|grown a pair and put their entire strategy on the line (despite its
marketing flaws).
|In order to unite the platform(s) to a more UX centric development story
they've
|simply had to sacrifice the Silverlight UX piece to WP7 and swap it out for
the
|work they are doing with Windows8.
|
|Silverlight was never meant to be shimmed onto the phone but given teh
amount
|of resets and poor decision making by executives etc during the 2005-2009
|leadership / gfc craziness it's what you have before you today.
|
|Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 still have a ways to go to convince the
market
|that they can not only live up to the hype but can sustain an adoption
curve long
|enough to take on trust. Keeping in mind right now Microsoft's entire
product
|strategies to date have been based around a lot of failed trust namely
around
|adopt xyz because we will promise to be here for a long time (insert WPF,
|Silverlight etc).
|
|As for the blood spill that follows from Wp8 put it this way, I'd hate to
have Nokia
|stock right now but that being said if you truly want to gamble away, I'd
buy
|Nokia stock as of now as if they can hold out long enough to get some
Windows
|Phone 8 traction - and - Windows Phone 8 actually becomes a consumer hit,
then
|now would be a good price :D ($2.50 a share compared to it used to being
$58.00
|share).
|
|
|---
|Regards,
|Scott Barnes
|http://www.riagenic.com
|
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 3:58 PM, mike smith meski...@gmail.com wrote:
|
|
|   On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:
|
|
|   |America seems to have more carrier locked and subsidised
|phones.  Now we can
|   |buy them like that here, but it seems to work out better
buying
|the phone
|   |separate from carrier.
|
|
|   Really ?   What price is the latest smart phone outright,
about
|$600 ? Over 24 months, that's about $25 a month. The carriers generally
only
|charge about half that with a package, so a saving of about $300 or more.
|
|
|   Ok, Samsung Galaxy Note - buy outright $500 - buy on Telstra
|plan $1776 over 24 months MINIMUM
|
|
|
|   http://www.telstra.com.au/latest-offers/samsung-galaxy-
|note/index.htm
|
|   http://www.topbuy.com.au/tbcart/pc/Samsung-Galaxy-Note-N7000-
|I9220-Unlocked-Carbon-Blue-3g-And-Next-G-5-3-Inch-Mobile-Gps-Phone-
|p134153.htm?utm_source=TopBuy_Googleutm_medium=cpcutm_campaign=
|TBDF-XX86742
|
|   Ok, you still need a plan to run the phone, but not one that costs
near
|that much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|   |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:41 PM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|
|   |On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:13 PM, David Kean
|david.k...@microsoft.com
|   |wrote:
|   |
|   |
|   |   (This is my own opinion

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

The killer though is if you want to recontract. 

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:24 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I just had a look, my current bill is around $135 per month for two phones, on
|nearly absolute cheapest minutes + highest data plan. That’s $1620 for two 
years
|per phone. So it’s not that far off Australia. If I brought my own device, I 
would
|not have saved much off that (I know this because I borked at the cost of that
|being that my previous phone [I didn’t use mobiles much] many, many years
|previous was on the $5 Telstra plan).
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 10:59 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Bill McCarthy 
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
||America seems to have more carrier locked and subsidised phones.  Now
||we can buy them like that here, but it seems to work out better buying
||the phone separate from carrier.
|
|Really ?   What price is the latest smart phone outright, about $600 ? Over 24
|months, that's about $25 a month. The carriers generally only charge about half
|that with a package, so a saving of about $300 or more.
|
|
|Ok, Samsung Galaxy Note - buy outright $500 - buy on Telstra plan $1776 over 24
|months MINIMUM
|
|
|
|http://www.telstra.com.au/latest-offers/samsung-galaxy-note/index.htm
|
|
|
|http://www.topbuy.com.au/tbcart/pc/Samsung-Galaxy-Note-N7000-I9220-
|Unlocked-Carbon-Blue-3g-And-Next-G-5-3-Inch-Mobile-Gps-Phone-
|p134153.htm?utm_source=TopBuy_Googleutm_medium=cpcutm_campaign=
|TBDF-XX86742
|
|
|
|Ok, you still need a plan to run the phone, but not one that costs near that 
much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|   |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:41 PM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|
|   |On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:13 PM, David Kean
|david.k...@microsoft.com
|   |wrote:
|   |
|   |
|   |   (This is my own opinion, please do not confuse it with 
Microsoft's,
|or as
|   |representing Microsoft's. While I contribute code to Phone 8, I don't
|work on the
|   |team, and am not privy to why behind their marketing/engineering
|decisions)
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |:)
|   |
|   |I'd comment on a gmail account were I you...  If I was commenting
|officially on
|   |HP matters I work with, I'd use my HP domained email.
|   |
|   |
|   |   Take a step back, how many years do you really think it will 
actually
|take
|   |for Phone 8 apps to become more prevalent than the Phone 7 apps?
|How many
|   |of you will have already replaced your phone by then?
|   |
|   |   It's been a while since I've owned a phone in Australia so I 
don't
|know
|   |how it works there, but in the US everyone gets a new phone every 18 -
|24
|   |months (depending on if the carrier lets you upgrade early), by the 
time
|Phone 8
|   |has released, and has enough apps to worry you, you'll already be at 
the
|start of
|   |a new upgrade cycle.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |America seems to have more carrier locked and subsidised phones.
|Now we can
|   |buy them like that here, but it seems to work out better buying the
|phone
|   |separate from carrier.
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |   -Original Message-
|
|   |   From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com  [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|   |   Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:03 PM
|   |   To: 'ozDotNet'
|   |   Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |   Seriously ?   Is that the new Microsoft policy, just dump old
|customers ?  I
|   |   see they said 18 months of updates in regards to windows 8.
|   |
|   |   For me, I see Windows Phone as something that's evolving, and
|thought,
|   |and expected it, just like the iphone does, bring customers along with
|them, not
|   |just abandon them every three years or so (well last time it was three
|years
|   |   ago)
|   |
|   |   The sad part is I can't honestly tell people they should buy a
|windows
|   |phone today. And it's a paint to have to tell them, yes last week when 
I
|said to
|   |buy a windows phone that was all we knew, now we know your phone
|will be
|   |obsolete come September.
|   |
|   |
|   |   |-Original Message-
|   |   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

My Friday venting:
http://msmvps.com/blogs/bill/archive/2012/06/22/why-isn-t-windows-phone-8-an-update-for-nokia-lumia-s.aspx

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Yeh yeh, I know suck it up princess ;)

The issue is out in the public, from gizmodo, engadget, Wall Street journal etc 
etc; we, and Microsoft can't hide from that. They need to come out with a 
better story, a better explanation, or both.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:24 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|We vented yesterday, now to get on with business. Public posts like this don't
|help a bad situation, they just make it worse. Accept what is, and move on -
|complaining isn't going to change what's going to come to pass.
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not 
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of 
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:14 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|My Friday venting:
|http://msmvps.com/blogs/bill/archive/2012/06/22/why-isn-t-windows-phone-8-
|an-update-for-nokia-lumia-s.aspx
|
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

I thought Windows RT only allowed WinRT apps with the exception of the 
preloaded Office.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:45 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Not sure I follow Windows RT isn't encouraging native apps?
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not 
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of 
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:41 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I'd like to think those discussions were had in private forums before MS made 
it
|all public yesterday.
|
|Re: developer advice, I thought MS also made it clear the new native support 
was
|to make it easier for apps to port over from iOS and Android. The existing 7.5
|(soon to be 7.8) market is small. Last I heard was  2%, and that figure will 
drop
|not grow; that is it has now reached its peak.
|
|It'll be interesting to see when the SDK is available what's what. I'm still 
unclear if
|there will be WinRT on the phone. It also seems funny to me that the phone is
|encouraging native apps, but Windows RT isn't. The developer story still is not
|clear to me
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:32 AM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||Bill, don’t get me wrong I share the same frustations (was on a call
||with the phone team at 3am this morning talking about it). The upshot
||is that if we want to support Windows Phone we need to build guidance
||to assist developers build for 7.x (which will work across wp8) unless
||they specifically want to leverage wp8 functions.
||
||
||
||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you
||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built
||to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or
||attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own
||and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
||
||
||
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:29 AM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||
||
||Yeh yeh, I know suck it up princess ;)
||
||
||
||The issue is out in the public, from gizmodo, engadget, Wall Street
||journal etc etc; we, and Microsoft can't hide from that. They need to
||come out with a better story, a better explanation, or both.
||
||
||
||
||
|||-Original Message-
||
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
|||mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  [mailto:ozdotnet-
||
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:|boun...@ozdotnet.com ] On Behalf Of
|||Nick Randolph
||
|||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:24 AM
||
|||To: ozDotNet
||
|||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
|||
||
|||We vented yesterday, now to get on with business. Public posts like
||
|||this don't help a bad situation, they just make it worse. Accept what
||
|||is, and move on - complaining isn't going to change what's going to
|||come to
||pass.
||
|||
||
|||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
||
|||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
||
|||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you
||
|||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way.
|||Built
||
|||to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or
||
|||attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own
||
|||and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
||
|||
||
|||
||
|||-Original Message-
||
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
|||mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  [mailto:ozdotnet-
||
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:|boun...@ozdotnet.com ] On Behalf Of
|||Bill McCarthy
||
|||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:14 AM
||
|||To: 'ozDotNet'
||
|||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
|||
||
|||My Friday venting:
||
|||http://msmvps.com/blogs/bill/archive/2012/06/22/why-isn-t-windows-phon
|||e
||
|||-8-
||
|||an-update-for-nokia-lumia-s.aspx
||
|||
||
|||
||
||
||
||
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

And directX is ?

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:03 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Right, but surely WinRT apps can themselves be written in native code, they 
just
|can't reference any non-winrt components?
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not 
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of 
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:54 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I thought Windows RT only allowed WinRT apps with the exception of the
|preloaded Office.
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:45 AM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||Not sure I follow Windows RT isn't encouraging native apps?
||
||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you
||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built
||to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or
||attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own
||and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
||
||
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:41 AM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||I'd like to think those discussions were had in private forums before
||MS made it all public yesterday.
||
||Re: developer advice, I thought MS also made it clear the new native
||support was to make it easier for apps to port over from iOS and
||Android. The existing 7.5 (soon to be 7.8) market is small. Last I
||heard was  2%, and that figure will drop not grow; that is it has now 
reached its
|peak.
||
||It'll be interesting to see when the SDK is available what's what. I'm
||still unclear if there will be WinRT on the phone. It also seems funny
||to me that the phone is encouraging native apps, but Windows RT isn't.
||The developer story still is not clear to me
||
|||-Original Message-
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:32 AM
|||To: ozDotNet
|||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||
|||Bill, don’t get me wrong I share the same frustations (was on a call
|||with the phone team at 3am this morning talking about it). The upshot
|||is that if we want to support Windows Phone we need to build guidance
|||to assist developers build for 7.x (which will work across wp8) unless
|||they specifically want to leverage wp8 functions.
|||
|||
|||
|||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
|||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you
|||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way.
|||Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails
|||or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's
|||own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
|||
|||
|||
|||-Original Message-
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:29 AM
|||To: 'ozDotNet'
|||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||
|||
|||
|||Yeh yeh, I know suck it up princess ;)
|||
|||
|||
|||The issue is out in the public, from gizmodo, engadget, Wall Street
|||journal etc etc; we, and Microsoft can't hide from that. They need to
|||come out with a better story, a better explanation, or both.
|||
|||
|||
|||
|||
-Original Message-
|||
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||
boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:|boun...@ozdotnet.com ] On Behalf Of
Nick Randolph
|||
Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:24 AM
|||
To: ozDotNet
|||
Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||

|||
We vented yesterday, now to get on with business. Public posts like
|||
this don't

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Supported.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/br205756.aspx


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:04 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|And directX is ?
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:03 AM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||Right, but surely WinRT apps can themselves be written in native code,
||they just can't reference any non-winrt components?
||
||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you
||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built
||to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or
||attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own
||and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
||
||
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:54 AM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||I thought Windows RT only allowed WinRT apps with the exception of the
||preloaded Office.
||
|||-Original Message-
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:45 AM
|||To: ozDotNet
|||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||
|||Not sure I follow Windows RT isn't encouraging native apps?
|||
|||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
|||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you
|||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way.
|||Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails
|||or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's
|||own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
|||
|||
|||-Original Message-
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:41 AM
|||To: 'ozDotNet'
|||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||
|||I'd like to think those discussions were had in private forums before
|||MS made it all public yesterday.
|||
|||Re: developer advice, I thought MS also made it clear the new native
|||support was to make it easier for apps to port over from iOS and
|||Android. The existing 7.5 (soon to be 7.8) market is small. Last I
|||heard was  2%, and that figure will drop not grow; that is it has now
|||reached its
||peak.
|||
|||It'll be interesting to see when the SDK is available what's what. I'm
|||still unclear if there will be WinRT on the phone. It also seems funny
|||to me that the phone is encouraging native apps, but Windows RT isn't.
|||The developer story still is not clear to me
|||
-Original Message-
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:32 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

Bill, don’t get me wrong I share the same frustations (was on a call
with the phone team at 3am this morning talking about it). The upshot
is that if we want to support Windows Phone we need to build guidance
to assist developers build for 7.x (which will work across wp8)
unless they specifically want to leverage wp8 functions.



Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient,
you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way.
Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails
or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's
own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.



-Original Message-
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:29 AM
To: 'ozDotNet'
Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced



Yeh yeh, I know suck it up princess ;)



The issue is out in the public, from gizmodo, engadget, Wall Street
journal etc etc; we, and Microsoft can't hide from that. They need to
come out with a better story, a better explanation, or both.





|-Original

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

To change tack a little, what in your opinion would be the top issues that have 
led to the relatively poor uptake of Windows Phone over the last three years ?


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:33 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Constrained: Metro style apps can use a subset of the Win32 and COM API. This
|subset of APIs was chosen to support key scenarios for Metro style apps that
|were not already covered by the Windows Runtime, HTML/CSS, or other
|supported languages or standards. The Windows App Certification Kit ensures
|that your app uses only this subset of the Win32 and COM API.
|
|
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not 
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of 
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:11 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Supported.
|http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/br205756.aspx
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:04 AM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||And directX is ?
||
|||-Original Message-
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:03 AM
|||To: ozDotNet
|||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||
|||Right, but surely WinRT apps can themselves be written in native code,
|||they just can't reference any non-winrt components?
|||
|||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
|||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you
|||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way.
|||Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails
|||or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's
|||own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
|||
|||
|||-Original Message-
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|||Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:54 AM
|||To: 'ozDotNet'
|||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||
|||I thought Windows RT only allowed WinRT apps with the exception of the
|||preloaded Office.
|||
-Original Message-
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:45 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

Not sure I follow Windows RT isn't encouraging native apps?

Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient,
you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way.
Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails
or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's
own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.


-Original Message-
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:41 AM
To: 'ozDotNet'
Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

I'd like to think those discussions were had in private forums before
MS made it all public yesterday.

Re: developer advice, I thought MS also made it clear the new native
support was to make it easier for apps to port over from iOS and
Android. The existing 7.5 (soon to be 7.8) market is small. Last I
heard was  2%, and that figure will drop not grow; that is it has
now reached its
|||peak.

It'll be interesting to see when the SDK is available what's what.
I'm still unclear if there will be WinRT on the phone. It also seems
funny to me that the phone is encouraging native apps, but Windows RT isn't.
The developer story still is not clear to me

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

I seem to recall there was a bit of advertising on initial launch some
two/three years ago, then it died right down. Until the recent wave of
Lumia's, you couldn't even purchase a WP online with Telstra not that long
ago. They were there, and then they weren't, and now they're back, but I
expect that will change.

One thing I noticed was the Telstra shops had little knowledge or in-store
advertising of WP.

Does yesterday's announcement fix those issues or make them worse ?


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk
|Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 11:50 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|
|   To change tack a little, what in your opinion would be the top
issues that
|have led to the relatively poor uptake of Windows Phone over the last three
years
|?
|
|
|
|
|
|I think lack of availability is a big issue. When I walk through my local
shopping
|centre or browse catalogues I see WP7 get a lot of advertising. You can't
miss it.
|But if I go into a Telstra shop or typically phone shop I typically see on
the racks
|
|2 x iPhone (black  white)
|10 x Android
|1 (maybe 2) x WP7
|
|Doesn't matter how much you advertise if they are not on the shelves.
iPhone can
|get away with it because they are so well known now.
|
|Craig.
|
|
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

It sucks. Was finally seeing Windows Phone front page of Telstra catalogues
etc. Now what happens to sales ?  Do they say oh if you buy this now it's
obsolete in 3 to 6 months time ?  Stupid.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 12:13 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Your technology is out of date before you bought it.
|
|I'm more stunned that Scott likes it than the announcements themselves. :p
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
| Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but now
| apparently it is :(
|
|
| |-Original Message-
| |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
| |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
| |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
| |To: ozDotNet
| |Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
| |
| |For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the Windows
| |Phone 8 announcement.
| |
| |http://bit.ly/MrWEze
| |Some highlights:
| |
| |*      Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
| |*      New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8). Can now have
| |1/4
| sized
| |mini tiles to give it more flavour.
| |*      A new company hub that corporate IT can display apps and
| |deploy
| from
| |their internal servers.
| |*      Support for new high resolution screens (720p)
| |*      Existing device aren't upgradeable to 8.0, but existing
| |devices will
| get a
| |7.8 update that will give some of the features, such as the new tiles.
| |
| |http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-windows
| |-
| |phone-8-announcement/
| |
| |-David Burela
| |Regional Technical Evangelist
| |Infragistics
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

IE10, native C++ software/games, directX, NFC (although not sure if the
hardware is there), device drivers (yep printing using the micro USB).
There's probably more ...

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Kennedy
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 1:15 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I got a Lumia 800 as a replacement for Mozart last week. The kicker will be
to see
|how much difference there is between 7.8  8. If it's mostly hardware
driven (eg:
|core speeds  resolution) then there's not really any point worrying about
|jumping it at the wrong time.
|Also, it's not out yet. We've still got a few months of having 'current'
gear.
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:
|
|
|   It sucks. Was finally seeing Windows Phone front page of Telstra
|catalogues
|   etc. Now what happens to sales ?  Do they say oh if you buy this now
it's
|   obsolete in 3 to 6 months time ?  Stupid.
|
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|   |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 12:13 PM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |Your technology is out of date before you bought it.
|   |
|   |I'm more stunned that Scott likes it than the announcements
|themselves. :p
|   |
|   |On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Bill McCarthy
|   bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|   |wrote:
|
|   | Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but now
|   | apparently it is :(
|   |
|   |
|   | |-Original Message-
|   | |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   | |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
|   | |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
|   | |To: ozDotNet
|   | |Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   | |
|   | |For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the
Windows
|   | |Phone 8 announcement.
|   | |
|   | |http://bit.ly/MrWEze
|   | |Some highlights:
|   | |
|   | |*  Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
|   | |*  New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8). Can now
have
|   | |1/4
|   | sized
|   | |mini tiles to give it more flavour.
|   | |*  A new company hub that corporate IT can display apps
and
|   | |deploy
|   | from
|   | |their internal servers.
|   | |*  Support for new high resolution screens (720p)
|   | |*  Existing device aren't upgradeable to 8.0, but existing
|   | |devices will
|   | get a
|   | |7.8 update that will give some of the features, such as the new
tiles.
|   | |
|   | |http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-
|windows
|   | |-
|   | |phone-8-announcement/
|   | |
|   | |-David Burela
|   | |Regional Technical Evangelist
|   | |Infragistics
|   |
|
|
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Seriously ?   Is that the new Microsoft policy, just dump old customers ?  I
see they said 18 months of updates in regards to windows 8.

For me, I see Windows Phone as something that's evolving, and thought, and
expected it, just like the iphone does, bring customers along with them, not
just abandon them every three years or so (well last time it was three years
ago)

The sad part is I can't honestly tell people they should buy a windows phone
today. And it's a paint to have to tell them, yes last week when I said to
buy a windows phone that was all we knew, now we know your phone will be
obsolete come September.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 1:45 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|I don't why the unhappiness, clearly you were happy with the device when
you
|bought it, why do you care that a newer device sometime in the future is
coming
|out?
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:48 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but now apparently
it is :(
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
||Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the Windows Phone
||8 announcement.
||
||http://bit.ly/MrWEze
||Some highlights:
||
||* Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
||* New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8). Can now have 1/4
|sized
||mini tiles to give it more flavour.
||* A new company hub that corporate IT can display apps and deploy
|from
||their internal servers.
||* Support for new high resolution screens (720p)
||* Existing device aren't upgradeable to 8.0, but existing devices will
|get a
||7.8 update that will give some of the features, such as the new tiles.
||
||http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-windows-
||phone-8-announcement/
||
||-David Burela
||Regional Technical Evangelist
||Infragistics
|
|
|
|
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

It's a huge mistake. The apps in the market place are because of those who
supported Windows Phone over the last three years, but there's no thanks, no
upgrade for those people (7.8 is belittling consolation prize).  Meanwhile
what happens to sales ***today*** ?

Yes united core is a good move, one they should have made three or more
years ago when they abandoned Windows Mobile for the next best thing.  Now
they expect customers to wear it again as they basically say we got it wrong
again.  It's not that it's impossible to upgrade the existing devices, it is
as you said, not their focus because they want to get the next best thing
out as quick as possible. 

They need a better story than this. They need a better story for people who
go to buy a phone today/everyday.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:10 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Ok, so I'm not saying that MS have made the right decision here but at
some
|point they needed to make a transition. Part of the issue is that the
future is in
|WinRT and Multi-core support, both of which WP7.x doesn't have. It's a
question
|of prioritisation and time to deliver - does it make sense to ensure
forward
|migration of existing devices with potentially no new features for WP8, or
does it
|make sense for WP to catch up and perhaps even overtake competitors in
terms
|of device capabilities?
|
|Reality check: Android is dominating the market. Android has possibly the
worst
|upgrade story possible. Is the Apple model of ensuring upgrades the
best/only
|path?
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does
not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or
opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:03 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Seriously ?   Is that the new Microsoft policy, just dump old customers ?
I
|see they said 18 months of updates in regards to windows 8.
|
|For me, I see Windows Phone as something that's evolving, and thought, and
|expected it, just like the iphone does, bring customers along with them,
not just
|abandon them every three years or so (well last time it was three years
|ago)
|
|The sad part is I can't honestly tell people they should buy a windows
phone
|today. And it's a paint to have to tell them, yes last week when I said to
buy a
|windows phone that was all we knew, now we know your phone will be obsolete
|come September.
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
||Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 1:45 PM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||I don't why the unhappiness, clearly you were happy with the device
||when
|you
||bought it, why do you care that a newer device sometime in the future
||is
|coming
||out?
||
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
||Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:48 PM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but now
||apparently
|it is :(
||
||
|||-Original Message-
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
|||Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
|||To: ozDotNet
|||Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||
|||For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the Windows
|||Phone
|||8 announcement.
|||
|||http://bit.ly/MrWEze
|||Some highlights:
|||
|||*Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
|||*New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8). Can now have 1/4
||sized
|||mini tiles to give it more flavour.
|||*A new company hub that corporate IT can display apps and deploy
||from
|||their internal servers.
|||*Support for new high resolution screens (720p)
|||*Existing device aren't upgradeable to 8.0, but existing devices will
||get a
|||7.8 update that will give some of the features, such as the new tiles.
|||
|||http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-windows-
|||phone-8-announcement/
|||
|||-David Burela
|||Regional Technical Evangelist
|||Infragistics
||
||
||
||
||
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Personally, I got out of my last contract early as soon as the Lumia 800 was
released. If I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have done that. I
expected the updates to continue to flow. What really grinds at me is
Microsoft most probably knew internally about the proposed change then, and
when they launched the Lumia 900.

Yes contracts here are typically 24 months. I feel sorry for those people
who purchase a Windows Phone today/yesterday/the day before, or even
tomorrow (if they don't get the warning of no update).  The apps that are
currently missing from Windows Phone, the ones people thought might come to
it, probably never will now. Screwed.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:13 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|(This is my own opinion, please do not confuse it with Microsoft's, or as
|representing Microsoft's. While I contribute code to Phone 8, I don't work
on the
|team, and am not privy to why behind their marketing/engineering decisions)
|
|Take a step back, how many years do you really think it will actually take
for
|Phone 8 apps to become more prevalent than the Phone 7 apps? How many of
|you will have already replaced your phone by then?
|
|It's been a while since I've owned a phone in Australia so I don't know how
it
|works there, but in the US everyone gets a new phone every 18 - 24 months
|(depending on if the carrier lets you upgrade early), by the time Phone 8
has
|released, and has enough apps to worry you, you'll already be at the start
of a
|new upgrade cycle.
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:03 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Seriously ?   Is that the new Microsoft policy, just dump old customers ?
I
|see they said 18 months of updates in regards to windows 8.
|
|For me, I see Windows Phone as something that's evolving, and thought, and
|expected it, just like the iphone does, bring customers along with them,
not just
|abandon them every three years or so (well last time it was three years
|ago)
|
|The sad part is I can't honestly tell people they should buy a windows
phone
|today. And it's a paint to have to tell them, yes last week when I said to
buy a
|windows phone that was all we knew, now we know your phone will be obsolete
|come September.
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
||Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 1:45 PM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||I don't why the unhappiness, clearly you were happy with the device
||when
|you
||bought it, why do you care that a newer device sometime in the future
||is
|coming
||out?
||
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
||Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:48 PM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but now
||apparently
|it is :(
||
||
|||-Original Message-
|||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
|||Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
|||To: ozDotNet
|||Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
|||
|||For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the Windows
|||Phone
|||8 announcement.
|||
|||http://bit.ly/MrWEze
|||Some highlights:
|||
|||*Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
|||*New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8). Can now have 1/4
||sized
|||mini tiles to give it more flavour.
|||*A new company hub that corporate IT can display apps and deploy
||from
|||their internal servers.
|||*Support for new high resolution screens (720p)
|||*Existing device aren't upgradeable to 8.0, but existing devices will
||get a
|||7.8 update that will give some of the features, such as the new tiles.
|||
|||http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-windows-
|||phone-8-announcement/
|||
|||-David Burela
|||Regional Technical Evangelist
|||Infragistics
||
||
||
||
||
|
|
|
|
|
|

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

|America seems to have more carrier locked and subsidised phones.  Now we can
|buy them like that here, but it seems to work out better buying the phone
|separate from carrier.

Really ?   What price is the latest smart phone outright, about $600 ? Over 24 
months, that's about $25 a month. The carriers generally only charge about half 
that with a package, so a saving of about $300 or more.




|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:41 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:13 PM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com
|wrote:
|
|
|   (This is my own opinion, please do not confuse it with Microsoft's, or 
as
|representing Microsoft's. While I contribute code to Phone 8, I don't work on 
the
|team, and am not privy to why behind their marketing/engineering decisions)
|
|
|
|
|:)
|
|I'd comment on a gmail account were I you...  If I was commenting officially on
|HP matters I work with, I'd use my HP domained email.
|
|
|   Take a step back, how many years do you really think it will actually 
take
|for Phone 8 apps to become more prevalent than the Phone 7 apps? How many
|of you will have already replaced your phone by then?
|
|   It's been a while since I've owned a phone in Australia so I don't know
|how it works there, but in the US everyone gets a new phone every 18 - 24
|months (depending on if the carrier lets you upgrade early), by the time Phone 
8
|has released, and has enough apps to worry you, you'll already be at the start 
of
|a new upgrade cycle.
|
|
|
|America seems to have more carrier locked and subsidised phones.  Now we can
|buy them like that here, but it seems to work out better buying the phone
|separate from carrier.
|
|
|
|   -Original Message-
|   From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|   Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:03 PM
|   To: 'ozDotNet'
|   Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|   Seriously ?   Is that the new Microsoft policy, just dump old customers 
?  I
|   see they said 18 months of updates in regards to windows 8.
|
|   For me, I see Windows Phone as something that's evolving, and thought,
|and expected it, just like the iphone does, bring customers along with them, 
not
|just abandon them every three years or so (well last time it was three years
|   ago)
|
|   The sad part is I can't honestly tell people they should buy a windows
|phone today. And it's a paint to have to tell them, yes last week when I said 
to
|buy a windows phone that was all we knew, now we know your phone will be
|obsolete come September.
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|   |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 1:45 PM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |I don't why the unhappiness, clearly you were happy with the device
|   |when
|   you
|   |bought it, why do you care that a newer device sometime in the future
|   |is
|   coming
|   |out?
|   |
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|   |Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:48 PM
|   |To: 'ozDotNet'
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but now
|   |apparently
|   it is :(
|   |
|   |
|   ||-Original Message-
|   ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
|   ||Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
|   ||To: ozDotNet
|   ||Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   ||
|   ||For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the Windows
|   ||Phone
|   ||8 announcement.
|   ||
|   ||http://bit.ly/MrWEze
|   ||Some highlights:
|   ||
|   ||* Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
|   ||* New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8). Can now have 1/4
|   |sized
|   ||mini tiles to give it more flavour.
|   ||* A new company hub that corporate IT can display apps and
|deploy
|   |from
|   ||their internal servers.
|   ||* Support for new high resolution screens (720p)
|   ||* Existing device aren't upgradeable to 8.0, but existing devices 
will
|   |get a
|   ||7.8 update that will give some of the features, such as the new tiles.
|   ||
|   ||http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-
|windows-
|   ||phone-8-announcement/
|http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-windows-
|||phone-8

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

To add to his, I think it is fair to say everyone who bought a windows phone 
bought it on the expectation of an evolving ecosystem: the apps weren't/aren't 
there, the peripherals aren't weren't there. It's that whole chicken and egg 
thing, that people bought into Windows Phone on the promise of a better 
tomorrow, nit just what was/is on offer yesterday.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:51 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Yes but you missed the point: new OS generally does mean new features, some of
|which you may only get on new devices (this goes without saying). What’s
|unacceptable (at least for most of us) is that existing devices will _not_ run
|applications that target the new version of the OS _and_ that there is no way 
for
|existing devices to upgrade to a version of the OS that will run those apps.
|
|
|
|Exclusions to this expectation are:
|
|-  At some point there always needs to be a cut off for which older 
devices
|won’t be able to get the new OS. For Apple this is typically vN-2.
|
|-  There are some applications that specifically target new features 
of the OS
|that will only run on new hardware (eg they use a new sensor that isn’t 
available
|on older devices), in which case there is an expectation that these won’t work 
on
|old hardware.
|
|
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not 
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of 
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:43 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|There's temptation to upgrade for latest features.  Siri?  I doubt that that
|supports backwards.
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.com wrote:
|
|Hummm can’t recall the last time Apple dropped the ball – they support upgrade
|for vN-1 devices.
|
|
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 tel:%2B61%20412%20413%20425  | @btroam
|The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the 
intended
|recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any 
way.
|Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or 
attached
|files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect
|the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 2:36 PM
|
|
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|Whatsisnames law.   It bites just as hard for Android and Apple, so I wouldn't 
be
|blaming Microsoft.
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:44 PM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com
|wrote:
|
|I don't why the unhappiness, clearly you were happy with the device when you
|bought it, why do you care that a newer device sometime in the future is coming
|out?
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:48 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but now apparently it 
is :(
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
||Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
||
||For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the Windows Phone
||8 announcement.
||
||http://bit.ly/MrWEze
||Some highlights:
||
||*  Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
||*  New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8). Can now have 1/4
|sized
||mini tiles to give it more flavour.
||*  A new company hub that corporate IT can display apps and deploy
|from
||their internal servers.
||*  Support for new high resolution screens (720p)
||*  Existing device aren't upgradeable to 8.0, but existing devices will
|get a
||7.8 update that will give some of the features, such as the new tiles.
||
||http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-windows-
||phone-8-announcement/
||http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-windows-
||%0d%0a%7Cphone-8-announcement/
||
||-David Burela
||Regional Technical Evangelist
||Infragistics

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

Yep I was referring to the Redmond syndrome, re  Is that the new Microsoft 
policy, just dump old customers. Actually the .NET team hasn't been so bad on 
this (there was that recent back step over the express editions of VS 12 ;) ).

Microsoft Kin anyone ?? 

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 3:02 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|Always consider me as “not speaking for Microsoft”.  Feel free to tell me that 
I
|might have been over here too long and suffer from the Redmond syndrome[1]
|and don’t know how real customers use our product, but don’t make me use a
|personal account. I’d never read this alias. :)
|
|
|
|Over here the phones are practically free[2] – I picked up HTC HD7 from Amazon
|(with contract) for $50.
|
|
|
|[1] We have a name for this internally, which has skipped my mind.
|
|[2] Un a manner of speaking of course, I clearly pay via my contract, but even 
if I
|bring my own phone, I save very little.
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:41 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:13 PM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com
|wrote:
|
|(This is my own opinion, please do not confuse it with Microsoft's, or as
|representing Microsoft's. While I contribute code to Phone 8, I don't work on 
the
|team, and am not privy to why behind their marketing/engineering decisions)
|
|
|
|:)
|
|
|
|I'd comment on a gmail account were I you...  If I was commenting officially on
|HP matters I work with, I'd use my HP domained email.
|
|
|
|   Take a step back, how many years do you really think it will actually 
take
|for Phone 8 apps to become more prevalent than the Phone 7 apps? How many
|of you will have already replaced your phone by then?
|
|   It's been a while since I've owned a phone in Australia so I don't know
|how it works there, but in the US everyone gets a new phone every 18 - 24
|months (depending on if the carrier lets you upgrade early), by the time Phone 
8
|has released, and has enough apps to worry you, you'll already be at the start 
of
|a new upgrade cycle.
|
|
|
|America seems to have more carrier locked and subsidised phones.  Now we can
|buy them like that here, but it seems to work out better buying the phone
|separate from carrier.
|
|
|
|
|   -Original Message-
|   From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|   Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:03 PM
|   To: 'ozDotNet'
|   Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|   Seriously ?   Is that the new Microsoft policy, just dump old customers 
?  I
|   see they said 18 months of updates in regards to windows 8.
|
|   For me, I see Windows Phone as something that's evolving, and thought,
|and expected it, just like the iphone does, bring customers along with them, 
not
|just abandon them every three years or so (well last time it was three years
|   ago)
|
|   The sad part is I can't honestly tell people they should buy a windows
|phone today. And it's a paint to have to tell them, yes last week when I said 
to
|buy a windows phone that was all we knew, now we know your phone will be
|obsolete come September.
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|   |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 1:45 PM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |I don't why the unhappiness, clearly you were happy with the device
|   |when
|   you
|   |bought it, why do you care that a newer device sometime in the future
|   |is
|   coming
|   |out?
|   |
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|   |Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:48 PM
|   |To: 'ozDotNet'
|   |Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but now
|   |apparently
|   it is :(
|   |
|   |
|   ||-Original Message-
|   ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
|   ||Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
|   ||To: ozDotNet
|   ||Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   ||
|   ||For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the Windows
|   ||Phone
|   ||8 announcement.
|   ||
|   ||http://bit.ly/MrWEze
|   ||Some highlights:
|   ||
|   ||* Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
|   ||* New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8

RE: Windows Phone 8 announced

[Bill McCarthy]

LOL.  You do realize the disposable society, the throw away the phone rather
than update it attitude, is part of why we see such global inequality and
people starving.  Don't throw out the people starving card unless you really
understand it and actually care ;)


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 3:41 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|There are people starving in countries that don't have enough food to feed
|themselves. Suck it up people. Buy your new shiny phone, or live with the
out of
|date piece of plastic you have now, whatever.
|
|It amuses me when people get all upset when something new and fantastic
|comes out and they are left holding yesterday's technology. Just remember
back
|to when you were waiting for *that* bit of gear how excited you were.
|
|What, are we playing Diablo 3 here? Always looking for new gear, and never
|happy with what we have?
|Lets just have fun killing the monsters! Forget the gear, it will come!
|
|On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:35 PM, mike smith meski...@gmail.com wrote:
|
|
|   Whatsisnames law.   It bites just as hard for Android and Apple, so
I
|wouldn't be blaming Microsoft.
|
|
|   On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:44 PM, David Kean
|david.k...@microsoft.com wrote:
|
|
|   I don't why the unhappiness, clearly you were happy with the
|device when you bought it, why do you care that a newer device sometime in
the
|future is coming out?
|
|
|   -Original Message-
|   From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|   Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:48 PM
|   To: 'ozDotNet'
|   Subject: RE: Windows Phone 8 announced
|
|   Now I'm really grumpy...  My lumia 800 isn't that old, but
now
|apparently it is :(
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Burela
|   |Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2012 4:52 AM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: Windows Phone 8 announced
|   |
|   |For anyone interested, I put my rough notes online of the
|Windows Phone
|   |8 announcement.
|   |
|   |http://bit.ly/MrWEze
|   |Some highlights:
|   |
|   |*  Shared core between Windows 8  Windows Phone 8.
|   |*  New user definable tile sizes (like Windows 8). Can
now
|have 1/4
|   sized
|   |mini tiles to give it more flavour.
|   |*  A new company hub that corporate IT can display
apps
|and deploy
|   from
|   |their internal servers.
|   |*  Support for new high resolution screens (720p)
|   |*  Existing device aren't upgradeable to 8.0, but
existing
|devices will
|   get a
|   |7.8 update that will give some of the features, such as the
new
|tiles.
|   |
|   |http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-
|from-the-windows-
|   |phone-8-announcement/
|http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/my-notes-from-the-windows-
|%7Cphone-8-announcement/
|   |
|   |-David Burela
|   |Regional Technical Evangelist
|   |Infragistics
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|   --
|   Meski
|
|
|
| http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv
|
|   Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex.
Sure, you'll
|get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
|
|

RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)

[Bill McCarthy]

Wasn't that many years ago I had 3.1 running of a USB on my tablet PC.
Managed to play solitaire on it ;) But I missed Norton's desktop.

Sadly last time I tried the USB stick it didn't boot to it properly.

But yes it was a fast boot


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh
|Sent: Monday, 11 June 2012 12:19 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
|
|http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-user-
|experience.aspx
|
|Creating the Windows 8 user experience
|
|
|
|This is an interesting history lesson and explanation of where they think
they're
|headed with Win8. I'm far more sympathetic after reading that.
|
|
|
|The screen shots take me back. I'd love to run Windows 3.1 on my current PC
and
|see how it performs (sadly I don't think it would install or run due to
hardware
|changes). I think I still have an MSDN CDs from the mid 90s with old
versions on
|it. Maybe Win95 will install and run in a VM.
|
|
|
|Greg

win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)

[Bill McCarthy]

Open people on win 8, then search for a non-existing name , eg ## or ** or 
something so as the search results come up empty. Now using only keyboard and 
mouse get back to displaying the entire list without having to enter in a valid 
search first (that is navigate back to the people list).  Post back saying how 
long it took you, how many different combinations you tried first ;)

BTW: how do you do it with gestures ? 

Oh, and is the weather app working for anyone? I've tried everything, even a 
fresh install of the preview and it still just tries to start then hangs. I 
could swear it was working yesterday

RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)

[Bill McCarthy]

;)  Win + Z will show the app bar from the search results even though right 
click of the mouse won't. So it probably is a bug.

I also noticed in the maps app you can't right click to select directions 
from here/to here because right click is the app bar :S The maps in the browser 
is a better experience.

And on apps where there's an app bar from top and bottom, eg finance or 
sports then the app bar shows but then automatically hides. Similarly in mail 
and calendar if I do a Win+C, select settings and then accounts, the account 
pane shows and automatically hides. Not sure if this is just a keyboard/mouse 
UI bug, VMWare, or preview means pre beta ;)


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 7:09 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)
|
|Good point - I actually saw that on the weekend when I was searching something.
|They must have received that feedback already, so would imagine it'll get
|addressed
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not 
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of 
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 5:43 PM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)
|
|Search results empty, then try to get back to full list. Or even search 
results just a
|few, then try to get to full list
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
||Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 5:29 PM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)
||
||Hmm maybe it was just me but I didn't have an issue with you scenario:
||
||Keyboard: type search, enter to bring up search results, alt-tab to go
||people app, tab and/or direction keys to navigate through search
||results
||
||Gestures: pinch the list of people, jump to the first letter of the
||name and hopefully you're close enough, else, swipe a bit
||
||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone
||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in
||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you
||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built
||to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or
||attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own
||and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd.
||
||
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
||Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 4:28 PM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)
||
||Open people on win 8, then search for a non-existing name , eg ## or
||** or something so as the search results come up empty. Now using only
||keyboard and mouse get back to displaying the entire list without
||having to enter in a valid search first (that is navigate back to the
||people list).  Post back saying how long it took you, how many
||different combinations you tried first ;)
||
||BTW: how do you do it with gestures ?
||
||Oh, and is the weather app working for anyone? I've tried everything,
||even a fresh install of the preview and it still just tries to start
||then hangs. I could swear it was working yesterday
||
|

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

In today's age :

 

http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/windows-phone-to-surpass-ios-b
y-2016-analyst-20120608-1zzpl.html

 

I recontracted when the Lumia 800 came out and it addressed the embarrassing
parts of  my previous WP (HTC Mozart). The screen is fantastic outside, and
the signal strength isn't too shabby either (gets a Telstra blue tick).  

 

I think WP 7 was a bit of a letdown, and a lot of people didn't/don't know
what Mango changed.  WP 7.1 (or 7.5 or whatever it is called) is more than
pretty good. It does have some limitations many of us hope to see changed
but the same can be said for any of the platforms.

 

What is really nice to see is now I see WP phones in telco advertising, both
printed and on television. Telstra for example sent out a business plan
brochure the other day and WP had the full front page and page 2. I think
come xmas time with windows 8 slates/tablets on display along with a new
launch of WP8 (???) there will be a compelling market there for consumers.

 

It ain't dead yet . ;)

 

 

 

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk
Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 8:33 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview

 

 

I said wp7 would fail in the first three years of its birth. I said
Silverlight was ear marked for depreciation along side WPF and now I say
Win8 will fail in consumer uptake.

 

 

WP7 has been cancelled?

 

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

|Full screen apps are a sudden paradigm change.  I mean ... I am running MSN
|Messenger at 2560 x 1440 and I can fit about 15 messages on the screen. And
I
|have to keep switching back and forth between work and GigantorMessenger to
|see what has most recently been said. WTH.

I think full screen is a step backwards. In mail for example I can't have
two emails open, side x side. In calendar when I go to schedule an
appointment I can no longer see my calendar. Docking is set to 320 px to
make layout easier for developers but things like mail will now require the
actual content providers to design  the content to be less than 320 px
wide... even mobile web pages have more space ;)

The sooner metro goes to hybrid the better !

By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable windows, allow new
navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the developer should
just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro app that runs
full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

The start button should be on the desktop taskbar. There is absolutely no
benefit in removing it. They've definitely got that part wrong.

The start screen itself is a nice concept, and I think it can make a good
start menu replacement, but it needs a lot more features to give back the
features it is meant to replace. The first I would say is have collapsed
application groups as a single tile, eg I could have a single tile called
Microsoft Office, press on that to expand to show all the office tiles.
Without something like this the screen will become a mess once you install
all today's current apps from a working desktop environment.

And as previously said, Documents, and Recent need to be there as well.
It's ridiculous that in win 7 they brought out jump lists only to now
abandon them.



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
|Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:50 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|
|   By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable windows, allow
new
|   navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the
developer
|should
|   just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro app that
runs
|   full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows
|
|
|
|Yep - agree. That really is the solution.
|
|Similarly, they could just put the start button back and make the metro
home
|screen thing pop up in a 1024x768 or whatever window/menu instead of taking
|away your entire workspace and filling your screen with crap you'll never
run. Not
|sure I need Digital Certificate for VBA Projects front and centre...
ever.
|
|--
|David Connors
|da...@connors.me

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

|the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start button
is -
|After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an
emotive
|dependency on the bottom left.

Huh ? I use to always dock to the top (and then hide it sometimes too).
These days my taskbar is docked to the right... makes a lot more sense with
newer wide screens


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes
|Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:27 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start button
is -
|After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an
emotive
|dependency on the bottom left.
|
|Kind of like a UX intervention by Microsoft and filled with Tough Love
responses.
|.. They need a I'm addicted to the bottom left start button hotline
though. It's
|where consumers can call in and find local StartButton Anonymous meetings
|whilst also potentially finding more sponsors to help them should they get
a
|craving post adoption.
|
|It's still a bold move though. I mean if you're going to pick a fight you
pick a fight
|and with the combination of Win8 anti-Win-UI-look-alike they have going is
one
|shock to the system but then to follow through with a removal of the start
button
|haymaker? ... Heir Steve.S has das some ballz.
|
|---
|Regards,
|Scott Barnes
|http://www.riagenic.com
|
|
|
|On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|
|   The start button should be on the desktop taskbar. There is
absolutely no
|   benefit in removing it. They've definitely got that part wrong.
|
|   The start screen itself is a nice concept, and I think it can make a
good
|   start menu replacement, but it needs a lot more features to give
back the
|   features it is meant to replace. The first I would say is have
collapsed
|   application groups as a single tile, eg I could have a single tile
called
|   Microsoft Office, press on that to expand to show all the office
tiles.
|   Without something like this the screen will become a mess once you
|install
|   all today's current apps from a working desktop environment.
|
|   And as previously said, Documents, and Recent need to be there as
well.
|   It's ridiculous that in win 7 they brought out jump lists only to
now
|   abandon them.
|
|
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
|   |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:50 AM
|   |To: ozDotNet
|   |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|   |
|
|   |On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Bill McCarthy
|   bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|   |wrote:
|   |
|   |
|   |   By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable
windows, allow
|   new
|   |   navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the
|   developer
|   |should
|   |   just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro
app that
|   runs
|   |   full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |Yep - agree. That really is the solution.
|   |
|   |Similarly, they could just put the start button back and make the
metro
|   home
|   |screen thing pop up in a 1024x768 or whatever window/menu instead
of
|taking
|   |away your entire workspace and filling your screen with crap you'll
|never
|   run. Not
|   |sure I need Digital Certificate for VBA Projects front and
centre...
|   ever.
|   |
|   |--
|   |David Connors
|   |da...@connors.me
|
|
|
|

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

The search charm is kind of good once you get use to its quirks. It's
lacking wildcards though, and most importantly it's missing a search all, or
search apps, settings, and documents. 
The biggest issue I have with it (apart from lack of discoverability and
quirky keyboard behaviour etc etc) is that the end user has to know what is
a setting versus what is an app. Is windows update a setting or is it an app
?  Who really cares when you know you just want Windows update, why make it
more complicated

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes
|Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:49 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|One in five housewives found that apps wasn't as good as search. Nine
out of
|ten developers on this sampled agreed that I made up those stats.
|
|:)
|
|---
|Regards,
|Scott Barnes
|http://www.riagenic.com
|
|
|
|On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:46 AM, David Richards
|ausdot...@davidsuniverse.com wrote:
|
|
|   Greetings all,
|
|   I've been staying out of this conversation because I hadn't actually
|   used windows 8.  I decided to install it and see what all the fuss
was
|   about.  So my impression after a couple of minutes poking around
|   follows:
|
|   I decided the UI design was terrible within seconds.  It's clearly
|   aimed at small screens, which is fine.  But it doesn't take into
|   account larger screens and adjust accordingly.
|
|   The missing Start button people are complaining about, as far as I
|   could tell, is still there.  It's just microscopic and invisible and
|   activated by hovering.  I tried clicking on the desktop icon (tile,
|   whatever) and got stuck on the desktop.  I had to be told about
these
|   mysterious hot corners.  Any UI that has invisible elements is a bad
|   UI.  Of course, the Start button just takes you back to those
enormous
|   space wasting tiles.
|
|   So then I tried pointing at corners and found a Search button.  I
|   clicked it expecting a computer/internet search and instead got a
full
|   screen style All Programs menu.  That in itself if fine but why call
|   it Search?  Is that just to be different to Apps or did people not
|   understand Programs?
|
|   Anyway, I just thought people might be interested in the first
|   impressions of a developer who has been ignoring win7 and win8 up
|   until now.  I'll poke around a bit more over lunch.
|
|   David
|
|   If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes
|will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!
|-Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
|
|

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

Dang, I meant left ;)

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:51 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview
|
||the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start
||button
|is -
||After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an
|emotive
||dependency on the bottom left.
|
|Huh ? I use to always dock to the top (and then hide it sometimes too).
|These days my taskbar is docked to the right... makes a lot more sense with
|newer wide screens
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes
||Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:27 AM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
||
||the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start
||button
|is -
||After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an
|emotive
||dependency on the bottom left.
||
||Kind of like a UX intervention by Microsoft and filled with Tough Love
|responses.
||.. They need a I'm addicted to the bottom left start button hotline
|though. It's
||where consumers can call in and find local StartButton Anonymous
||meetings whilst also potentially finding more sponsors to help them
||should they get
|a
||craving post adoption.
||
||It's still a bold move though. I mean if you're going to pick a fight
||you
|pick a fight
||and with the combination of Win8 anti-Win-UI-look-alike they have going
||is
|one
||shock to the system but then to follow through with a removal of the
||start
|button
||haymaker? ... Heir Steve.S has das some ballz.
||
||---
||Regards,
||Scott Barnes
||http://www.riagenic.com
||
||
||
||On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
||wrote:
||
||
||  The start button should be on the desktop taskbar. There is
|absolutely no
||  benefit in removing it. They've definitely got that part wrong.
||
||  The start screen itself is a nice concept, and I think it can make a
|good
||  start menu replacement, but it needs a lot more features to give
|back the
||  features it is meant to replace. The first I would say is have
|collapsed
||  application groups as a single tile, eg I could have a single tile
|called
||  Microsoft Office, press on that to expand to show all the office
|tiles.
||  Without something like this the screen will become a mess once you
||install
||  all today's current apps from a working desktop environment.
||
||  And as previously said, Documents, and Recent need to be there as
|well.
||  It's ridiculous that in win 7 they brought out jump lists only to
|now
||  abandon them.
||
||
||
||
||  |-Original Message-
||  |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||
||  |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
||  |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:50 AM
||  |To: ozDotNet
||  |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
||  |
||
||  |On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Bill McCarthy
||  bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
||  |wrote:
||  |
||  |
||  |   By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable
|windows, allow
||  new
||  |   navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the
||  developer
||  |should
||  |   just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro
|app that
||  runs
||  |   full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows
||  |
||  |
||  |
||  |Yep - agree. That really is the solution.
||  |
||  |Similarly, they could just put the start button back and make the
|metro
||  home
||  |screen thing pop up in a 1024x768 or whatever window/menu instead
|of
||taking
||  |away your entire workspace and filling your screen with crap you'll
||never
||  run. Not
||  |sure I need Digital Certificate for VBA Projects front and
|centre...
||  ever.
||  |
||  |--
||  |David Connors
||  |da...@connors.me
||
||
||
||
|

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows
phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between
the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to
be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for
example, is My documents gone ?

There's some weird divides between desktop and metro that really only
make sense to developer geeks who understand these are different runtime
platforms: but forcing that differentiation onto consumers seems wrong to
me. Why should they need to care if their app is metro or not?  Why do
running apps all appear when you hit alt+tab, but yet only one subset
appears in the windows desktop taskbar, and another subset in the metro
taskbar (nb the metro taskbar only shows one of the two apps that are
running if one of them is docked)

I think consumers' reaction will be mixed. Tablet users (especially those
with windows phones) will like win 8.  Existing users of win 7 that do a lot
of content creation are more likely to have that initial negative reaction
like Greg posted about, one that I've seen a lot of other people express
too.

I do believe it can be made a lot better. The problem to me seems it's more
like running metro windows with traditional windows in a VM. There needs
to be better integration..

I really strongly believe that with just a handful of changes the experience
could be a lot better:

1. Make the start menu screen a pivot app with pivots that include running
applications, My Documents . (maybe include recent, favourites etc). The
running pivot pane would include all running apps as is currently in the
ALT+TAB list.

2. Get rid of the metro left pane taskbar (no longer needed if (1) is
implemented, and show all apps in the windows desktop taskbar

3. Allow metro apps to be run in windows !!That is, allow them to be run
in a sizeable window alongside desktop apps. (via right click menu, and
allow for that preference to be saved)

4. Allow for flexible docking. The current docking for metro apps is way
too limited.

5. Include the start button on the desktop, and when pressed, show the metro
start menu screen but show it as not quite full screen, so as it has the
appearance of a window (eg top,left at 10, bottom and right in about 20 then
add a bit of a drop shadow)


There's probably more that could be done to improve integration eg why
doesn't the DPI settings also update the metro settings instead today you
have to change metro to Large separately and Large isn't the same slight
magnification as 125% is; why isn't screen resolution in computer settings,
instead you have to get to it via desktop or search for control panel etc. I
like the idea of simplification but the current bits feel more like
duplication.

Anyway, I think win 8 is close, but all the good work done behind the scenes
to make windows 7 better will be lost to negative reactions to the metro
addition. I'm still hoping they will make some more changes but it doesn't
look like it from the preview, instead it looks like they are rushing to
market (realistically only four or so months left to make Christmas for
retail devices). I haven't given up hope yet though; I'm hoping for a
windows 8 mango release if worse comes to worse, but will still be sad to
see so much negative reaction to the first release.

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

|Win7 is adequate or better for desktops, Win 8 is less so.
|

Nope. That you think that is the problem with the detached start menu 
experience. 

|All of theses are somewhat hacks to make it perform like the previous version.
|

They are design changes, and yes they would make the transition to the newer UI 
features smoother for those coming from win 7. The goal of win 8 is mighty as 
it tries to find that point of convergence between different form factors. I 
think they've overshot the mark a bit and need to tune it back to a happier 
medium.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:19 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|
|   IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the 
windows
|   phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities 
between
|   the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me
|to
|   be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for
|   example, is My documents gone ?
|
|
|
|
|I find it paradoxical that we can have threads dealing with 3, 4, 5 large 
monitors
|to cater to an OS that expects a target of, at best tablet size.
|
|
|   There's some weird divides between desktop and metro that really
|only
|   make sense to developer geeks who understand these are different
|runtime
|   platforms: but forcing that differentiation onto consumers seems wrong
|to
|   me. Why should they need to care if their app is metro or not?  Why do
|   running apps all appear when you hit alt+tab, but yet only one subset
|   appears in the windows desktop taskbar, and another subset in the
|metro
|   taskbar (nb the metro taskbar only shows one of the two apps that are
|   running if one of them is docked)
|
|
|
|It's all about efficient use of large screens.  And Metro just isn't.
|
|
|
|   I think consumers' reaction will be mixed. Tablet users (especially 
those
|   with windows phones) will like win 8.
|
|
|Agreed.  If Win8 can handle being 4th to market in a fairly mature marketplace.
|Being third wasn't terribly useful for us.  (disclaimer, this is not the 
opinion of my
|employer, but is personal  - assume this disclaimer applies to all my comments,
|actually.)
|
|
|Existing users of win 7 that do a lot
|   of content creation are more likely to have that initial negative 
reaction
|   like Greg posted about, one that I've seen a lot of other people express
|   too.
|
|
|
|
|Win7 is adequate or better for desktops, Win 8 is less so.
|
|
|   I do believe it can be made a lot better. The problem to me seems it's
|more
|   like running metro windows with traditional windows in a VM. There
|needs
|   to be better integration..
|
|   I really strongly believe that with just a handful of changes the 
experience
|   could be a lot better:
|
|   1. Make the start menu screen a pivot app with pivots that include
|running
|   applications, My Documents . (maybe include recent, favourites etc).
|The
|   running pivot pane would include all running apps as is currently in 
the
|   ALT+TAB list.
|
|   2. Get rid of the metro left pane taskbar (no longer needed if (1) is
|   implemented, and show all apps in the windows desktop taskbar
|
|   3. Allow metro apps to be run in windows !!That is, allow them to be
|run
|   in a sizeable window alongside desktop apps. (via right click menu, and
|   allow for that preference to be saved)
|
|   4. Allow for flexible docking. The current docking for metro apps is 
way
|   too limited.
|
|   5. Include the start button on the desktop, and when pressed, show the
|metro
|   start menu screen but show it as not quite full screen, so as it has the
|   appearance of a window (eg top,left at 10, bottom and right in about 20
|then
|   add a bit of a drop shadow)
|
|
|   There's probably more that could be done to improve integration eg why
|   doesn't the DPI settings also update the metro settings instead today 
you
|   have to change metro to Large separately and Large isn't the same
|slight
|   magnification as 125% is; why isn't screen resolution in computer
|settings,
|   instead you have to get to it via desktop or search for control panel 
etc. I
|   like the idea of simplification but the current bits feel more like
|   duplication.
|
|   Anyway, I think win 8 is close, but all the good work done behind the
|scenes
|   to make windows 7 better will be lost to negative reactions to the metro
|   addition. I'm still hoping they will make some more changes but it 
doesn't
|   look like it from the preview, instead it looks like they are rushing to
|   market

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

Typing the first couple of letters works well in windows 7 too ;)
The problem with the new start menu is the complete lack of My Documents.
Recent mia.
Removing the start menu button form the desktop taskbar adds nothing to the
user experience, just makes the experience a little less familiar.
Not having all apps appear in the taskbar makes it harder to task swap (it's
like there's two taskbars instead of one)
Not being able to run some apps in a window makes the Burdon on the end user
to know the difference between certain kinds of apps.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA)
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:58 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview
|
|I'm not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it
differently from
|others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and
|anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters
of its name.
|The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the
|start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some).
|
|
|
|Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, Microsoft, 1
|Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113
|Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 . Mob +61 (416) 134 993 . Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 .
|http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows
phone
|like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the
different
|form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed
for
|content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My
|documents gone ?
|
|
|
|I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot
of traditional
|desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear.
|
|
|
|I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot
spots in
|the corners it could be a lot more usable.
|
|
|
|Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with.
|
|
|
|--
|David Connors
|da...@connors.me

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

I fear the new start screen will get just as messy as the old start menu
did. In fact, the lack of folders or popups from the start menu will mean a
lot of horizontal scrolling will be needed for traditional desktops.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:09 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA)
|andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote:
|
|
|   I'm not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it
differently
|from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely,
and
|anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters
of its name.
|The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the
|start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some).
|
|
|
|
|I agree with you. The start menu had run it's course. Think of it like
this, once you
|have more than half a dozen programs installed navigating the start menu
|becomes a nightmare.  Trying to navigate through multiple menu levels,
|remember which option was in which folder. It is painful. The most
efficient way
|to use the start menu is to click on it and type the name of what you want
to run.
|Type 'word' and Microsoft word will pop up, type 'Control Pa..' and the
control
|panel will pop up. This is exactly how the new start screen works. Cut out
the
|rubbish multi level menus and just type what you want. It's so easy. You
can
|navigate manually with the mouse, which is painful. But no more painful
than the
|current start menu, just different.
|
|Craig

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

There's a bug with that at present you can cycle from Win+Q to Win+W and
Win+F nd between Win+F and Win+W but not back to Win+Q

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:10 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|http://media.bestofmicro.com/E/F/329703/original/4667.Keyboard_2D00_short
|cuts_2D00_for_2D00_Windows_2D00_8_5F00_5756566F.png  helps
|
|Win+Q = search for apps
|Win+W = search for settings
|Win+F = search for files
|
|The the first one is the equivalent of the search thingo in the start menu
most
|power users are familiar with.
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA)
|andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote:
|
|
|   I'm not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it
differently
|from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely,
and
|anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters
of its name.
|The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the
|start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some).
|
|
|
|   Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist,
|Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113
|   Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 tel:%2B61%20%282%29%209870%202719  .
|Mob +61 (416) 134 993 tel:%2B61%20%28416%29%20134%20993  . Fax: +61
|(2) 9870 2400 tel:%2B61%20%282%29%209870%202400  .
|http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat
|
|
|
|   From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
|   Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM
|
|
|   To: ozDotNet
|   Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|
|
|
|
|   On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:
|
|   IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the
windows
|   phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities
between
|   the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to
me
|to
|   be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for
|   example, is My documents gone ?
|
|
|
|   I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there
is a lot of
|traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad
fear.
|
|
|
|   I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need
for hot
|spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable.
|
|
|
|   Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with.
|
|
|
|
|
|   --
|   David Connors
|   da...@connors.me
|
|
|
|
|--
|David Connors
|da...@connors.me

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

And that as said previously is the same in windows 7. So the notion that the
new start menu addresses the problem with too many entries on the old start
menu is false.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:39 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|Only if you navigate by mouse. Type, don't click.
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|
|   I fear the new start screen will get just as messy as the old start
menu
|   did. In fact, the lack of folders or popups from the start menu will
mean a
|   lot of horizontal scrolling will be needed for traditional desktops.
|
|

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

It is, but how you get to it and what it contains is different. Live tiles are 
nice (pity they don't apply to desktop apps including outlook), but we've lost 
recent, popup folders; and we've got to go different ways to find different 
settings; are faced with two taskbars instead of one; and the end user needs to 
know if the application they are running is windows or windows RT based to know 
which taskbar to look in.

Like I said, it's close, but as is it's going to a get a massive negative 
consumer backlash for desktop machines; and probably an even more massive wait 
and see from corporate use. Imagine all the documents that have to be changed 
to remove references to clicking on the start button ;)


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:43 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|I just started thinking of that metro screen as a full-screen start menu and my
|yearning for one went away.
|
|Joseph
|
|On 07/06/2012, at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA)
|andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote:
|
|
|
|   I’m not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it 
differently
|from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and
|anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of 
its name.
|The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the
|start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some).
|
|
|
|   Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist,
|Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113
|   Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 • Mob +61 (416) 134 993 • Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 •
|http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat
|
|
|
|   From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
|   Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM
|   To: ozDotNet
|   Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|
|
|   On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:
|
|   IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the 
windows
|   phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities 
between
|   the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me
|to
|   be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for
|   example, is My documents gone ?
|
|
|
|   I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a 
lot of
|traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear.
|
|
|
|   I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for 
hot
|spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable.
|
|
|
|   Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with.
|
|
|
|   --
|   David Connors
|   da...@connors.me

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

You totally missed the point that on the desktop you will have to
horizontally scroll.

Windows 8 is NOT windows phone. Screens sizes are massively different.
Windows 8 requires a minimum of 1024 x 768, or 1366 x 768 to include snap.
The design of windows 8 is for an experience convergence not lowest common
denominator.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:06 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|Popup's on a phone or tablet? On my Windows Phone I have never seem a popup
|dialog. And on my iPad popup alerts are pretty simple to click.
|
|
|On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Bill McCarthy
bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
|wrote:
|
|
|   Well worse. Popups area lot more keyboard/mouse friendly than having
|to
|   horizontally scroll
|
|

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

So vertical wheel scrolls horizontally ? I wondered what the design was for
the news reader app which is a pain to scroll on my laptop. Admittedly I'm
using VMWare to run it so the touchpad experience is not good.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:10 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview
|
|You know that the mouse wheel will scroll horizontally on the start screen,
right?
|
|Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone
|Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this
|email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not
disclose
|or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does
not
|guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or
opinions
|expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of
Built
|to Roam Pty Ltd.
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:03 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview
|
|Well worse. Popups area lot more keyboard/mouse friendly than having to
|horizontally scroll
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk
||Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:58 AM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
||
||Exactly. It hasn't fixed the problem of manual navigation, just changed
it.
|But in
||the process made it more tablet/phone friendly.
||
||
||On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au
||wrote:
||
||
||  And that as said previously is the same in windows 7. So the notion
|that
||the
||  new start menu addresses the problem with too many entries on the
|old
||start
||  menu is false.
||
||
|

RE: Win8 Release Preview

[Bill McCarthy]

It is the initial shock that is the problem. Take the example of Vista. I 
honestly didn't mind Vista; sure there were a few too many are you sure? 's , 
but it was pretty good. I think the benefits far outweighed any of the 
negatives, but that was a view of the security issues that had been plaguing 
windows. The general reaction however was a LOT of negativity.  Oddly enough 
people now seem happy with Win 7 which really was like a service pack to Vista, 
although some still grumble muttering something about Vista g

There's no doubt our view is tainted. But I can't apply enough rose colour tint 
to make me believe it is acceptable for the user to have to know what is a 
metro app and what is a desktop app and that the navigating to them whilst 
running is completely different ( a lot of people don't use the keyboard 
shortcuts, they use the taskbar)

For those that buy a tablet first, then later buy windows 8 on a desktop/laptop 
or at work, their experience will be totally different. But for those coming 
from windows 7 they will be confronted with initial shock. And I think that's a 
real pity. It just generates negativity and all the good things are missed (eg 
how many conversations have you seen about the new task manager). I don't see 
any benefit in removing the start button, I don't see any benefit in hiding 
metro apps from the taskbar whilst ALT+TAB shows them.  Again it is like they 
have overshot the mark, just as most would agree now they did with Vista.



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:56 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview
|
|Exactly. Once you get over the initial shock for the transition from the 
desktop to
|it (which I can assure you, was much worse in earlier builds – the desktop 
used to
|spin), you get used it. One more thing, our view is very skewed because we’re
|developers and use very “classic” bound apps. As more and more mainline apps
|become “metrofied” I think it will feel very natural to navigate whether using 
a
|mouse, keyboard or touch, and the transition between desktop and metro will
|become less frequent.
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney
|Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 5:43 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|
|
|I just started thinking of that metro screen as a full-screen start menu and my
|yearning for one went away.
|
|Joseph
|
|
|On 07/06/2012, at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA)
|andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote:
|
|   I’m not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it 
differently
|from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and
|anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of 
its name.
|The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the
|start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some).
|
|
|
|   Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist,
|Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113
|   Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 • Mob +61 (416) 134 993 • Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 •
|http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat
|
|
|
|   From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] mailto:[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
|On Behalf Of David Connors
|   Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM
|   To: ozDotNet
|   Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview
|
|
|
|   On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:
|
|   IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the 
windows
|   phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities 
between
|   the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me
|to
|   be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for
|   example, is My documents gone ?
|
|
|
|   I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a 
lot of
|traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear.
|
|
|
|   I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for 
hot
|spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable.
|
|
|
|   Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with.
|
|
|
|   --
|   David Connors
|   da...@connors.me

RE: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface

[Bill McCarthy]

You mean THOUGHTS don't you ?


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:07 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
|
|Thoughts?
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ian Thomas
|Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 5:59 PM
|To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
|Subject: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|Ian Thomas
|Victoria Park, Western Australia
|
|

RE: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface

[Bill McCarthy]

- the red for stop could have been brighter (ditto for the green on go but
not so bad)

 - in solution explorer the blue colour for fields seems way too dark.

- I'd like to see colour for the padlock  glyph that indicates private:
it's really too hard to see differences between friend, protected and
private glyphs at a glance

- likewise for methods, properties (more colour)

- I didn't see any mention of the order of fields/methods in solution
explorer. At present it seems to list them in file order with designer files
first: that is it shows me members I'm least concerned with first. I'd
really like to see shading/colour here to differentiate between members in
designer files and members in my code files; and group members in my code
files first. Also ability to sort alphabetically, by member type then
alphabetically etc would be nice (eg group fields, then methods, then
properties and alphabetically in each.

- perhaps it might also be nice if member types/return types are a different
colour ; and it would be cool if you could navigate by clicking on a member
type to that type definition.

- an it'd be nice if these themes were customisable. Put all the
colours/icons in a resource DLL, and allow for redirection to a user's path
dll. Including strings as well for first level interface (not all messages),
would allow people to choose themes that use ALL CAPS or not.
Why not completely open it up to 3rd party themes ??



|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:15 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
|
|You mean THOUGHTS don't you ?
|
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
||Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:07 AM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: RE: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
||
||Thoughts?
||
||
||
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ian Thomas
||Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 5:59 PM
||To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
||Subject: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
||
||
||
||
||
||
||
||
||
||Ian Thomas
||Victoria Park, Western Australia
||
||
|

RE: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface

[Bill McCarthy]

RC is coming soon, but details of the UI changes are available at:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/08/visual-studio-11-user-interface-updates-coming-in-rc.aspx


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith
|Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2012 1:33 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
|
|What's a link for downloading?  Or do I have to find the person around here 
that
|has msdn login details to do it?
|
|MikeS
|
|
|On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Bill McCarthy
|bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote:
|
|
|   - the red for stop could have been brighter (ditto for the green on go 
but
|   not so bad)
|
|- in solution explorer the blue colour for fields seems way too dark.
|
|   - I'd like to see colour for the padlock  glyph that indicates 
private:
|   it's really too hard to see differences between friend, protected and
|   private glyphs at a glance
|
|   - likewise for methods, properties (more colour)
|
|   - I didn't see any mention of the order of fields/methods in solution
|   explorer. At present it seems to list them in file order with designer 
files
|   first: that is it shows me members I'm least concerned with first. I'd
|   really like to see shading/colour here to differentiate between members
|in
|   designer files and members in my code files; and group members in my
|code
|   files first. Also ability to sort alphabetically, by member type then
|   alphabetically etc would be nice (eg group fields, then methods, then
|   properties and alphabetically in each.
|
|   - perhaps it might also be nice if member types/return types are a
|different
|   colour ; and it would be cool if you could navigate by clicking on a
|member
|   type to that type definition.
|
|   - an it'd be nice if these themes were customisable. Put all the
|   colours/icons in a resource DLL, and allow for redirection to a user's 
path
|   dll. Including strings as well for first level interface (not all 
messages),
|   would allow people to choose themes that use ALL CAPS or not.
|   Why not completely open it up to 3rd party themes ??
|
|
|
|
|   |-Original Message-
|   |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|
|   |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|   |Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:15 AM
|   |To: 'ozDotNet'
|
|   |Subject: RE: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
|   |
|   |You mean THOUGHTS don't you ?
|   |
|   |
|   ||-Original Message-
|   ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|   ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
|   ||Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:07 AM
|   ||To: ozDotNet
|   ||Subject: RE: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
|   ||
|   ||Thoughts?
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|
|   ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ian Thomas
|   ||Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 5:59 PM
|   ||To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
|   ||Subject: Colour Returns to Visual Studio 11 User Interface
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||
|   ||Ian Thomas
|   ||Victoria Park, Western Australia
|   ||
|   ||
|   |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|--
|Meski
|
|
| http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv
|
|Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll 
get it,
|but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills

RE: [OT] Windows phone recommendation

[Bill McCarthy]

I've been using the lumia 800 for the last month and love it. The two real big 
positives are the coverage is excellent (Telstra blue tick) and the screen is 
beautiful and great outdoors.
I wouldn't call the hardware slow, not by a long shot.  The single core running 
at 1.4 is pretty sweet: there's not really multitasking or parallel processing 
happening on windows phone or any phones for that matter, so slower speed dual 
cores are somewhat over rated.
I've seen comparisons of web browser rendering speeds showing WP to be slower, 
but in general usage I seem to smoke all the latest iPhone users...:)

Negatives are lack of tethering at present, waiting on a software update, no 
4G, no front facing camera, and you're better off looking for moss on the side 
of trees than using the compass. The 900 addresses all/most of those short 
comings.

Oh, the Nokia maps are also cool.

RE: [OT] Windows phone recommendation

[Bill McCarthy]

Lol, I remember having 14 inch monitors with lower resolution  ;)  
I'm sure you could cram in more than 480 x 800, but I'm not sure you'd notice 
it that much. At 2 AM this display still looks great to me.  Anyway, if you 
want more pixels you'll have to wait till WP 8.

 

RE: Unhooking events from Handler

[Bill McCarthy]

I'd consider holding weak references in the static class

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|Sent: Monday, 2 April 2012 11:21 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Unhooking events from Handler
|
|Hey all,
|
|I've got a Static class that's behaving like an EventHandler in that you
assign
|values to it via an operator + or - method.
|
|I need a method on this thing or some way that I can unhook the ones from
one
|particular class (called from the dispose of that class) so that it can
remove only
|the ones that were added from that class. Its accepting an Enum, so is
there a
|way to see the owner of an Enum or where it was created?
|
|Or do I need to store something along with the Enum that can later be used
to
|identify who attached it?
|
|If you imagine it as a Static eventhandler, how can I look through the
references
|and only unhook the ones from a particular class. (assuming internally you
can
|loop through each handler.
|The actual problem is that it's causing a memory leak if I don't unhook
these
|things when that page/veiwmodel is disposed.
|
|hope the above makes some kind of sense to someone. :)
|
|cheers,
|Stephen

RE: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM

[Bill McCarthy]

I use win 7 x64 with VMWare. Put the server OS'es in VMs

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Peter Griffith
|Sent: Friday, 24 February 2012 8:56 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM
|
|Thanks guys,
|
|   He already has the laptop.
|
|
|
|   Trying to resolve whether to set it up with Windows server 2008 
R2 or
|just go for Windows 7.
|
|
|
|PG
|
|
|
|Peter Griffith CP
|
|http://pgriffith.wordpress.com http://pgriffith.wordpress.com
|
|PH: 0408 832 891
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
|Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012 8:30 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM
|
|
|
|On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote:
|
|
|
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
|Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012 4:46 PM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: Re: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM
|
|
|
|Laptops are like phones (and women, come to think of it). There's always a 
better
|one available in less than six months. You want to upgrade it in less than six
|months. There's never a perfect system specs, IF ONLY you could take those
|specs from that laptop and combine with the specs from that other laptop, and
|make it weigh like that thin ultra portable laptop specs you've been dreaming
|about...
|
|
|
|Seriously: http://www.sony.com.au/product/vpcz227gg/specs - 1.12kg
|
|
|To follow on from Stephen's analogy, she is a bit doey, can't draw without her
|louis vuitton  luggage in tow, and isn't really interested in resolution of 
matters,
|and is probably high maintenance.
|
|
|
|
|--
|
|David Connors | da...@codify.com mailto:da...@codify.com  |
|www.codify.com http://www.codify.com
|
|Codify Pty Ltd
|Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189
|363
|V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors
|https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors
|Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact
|https://www.codify.com/contact

RE: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM

[Bill McCarthy]

Nice :)  I've got win 8 on the other drive (actually a boot to .vhd), but I 
ain't got no multi-touch on my Dell XPS 17 (not sure I'd want to be cleaning 
that many finger prints of that size screen ;) ).  I do like having multiple 
SSD's : no need for external drives for VM's.

|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Denny
|Sent: Friday, 24 February 2012 9:22 AM
|To: ozDotNet
|Subject: RE: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM
|
|I'm currently using Windows 8, with Hyper-V. I've got a 8GB Lenovo X220T, and I
|use an external USB3 512GB SSD to run my VMs.
|
|Mitch Denny
|Readify | Chief Technology Officer
|M: +61 414 610 141 | E: mitch.de...@readify.net | W: http://www.readify.net
|
|
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
|Sent: Friday, 24 February 2012 9:20 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM
|
|I use win 7 x64 with VMWare. Put the server OS'es in VMs
|
||-Original Message-
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Peter Griffith
||Sent: Friday, 24 February 2012 8:56 AM
||To: 'ozDotNet'
||Subject: RE: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM
||
||Thanks guys,
||
||   He already has the laptop.
||
||
||
||   Trying to resolve whether to set it up with Windows
||server 2008 R2 or just go for Windows 7.
||
||
||
||PG
||
||
||
||Peter Griffith CP
||
||http://pgriffith.wordpress.com http://pgriffith.wordpress.com
||
||PH: 0408 832 891
||
||
||
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors
||Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012 8:30 PM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: Re: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM
||
||
||
||On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com
|wrote:
||
||
||
||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price
||Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012 4:46 PM
||To: ozDotNet
||Subject: Re: New laptop for developer, has 16Gb RAM
||
||
||
||Laptops are like phones (and women, come to think of it). There's
||always a better one available in less than six months. You want to
||upgrade it in less than six months. There's never a perfect system
||specs, IF ONLY you could take those specs from that laptop and combine
||with the specs from that other laptop, and make it weigh like that thin
||ultra portable laptop specs you've been dreaming about...
||
||
||
||Seriously: http://www.sony.com.au/product/vpcz227gg/specs - 1.12kg
||
||
||To follow on from Stephen's analogy, she is a bit doey, can't draw
||without her louis vuitton  luggage in tow, and isn't really interested
||in resolution of matters, and is probably high maintenance.
||
||
||
||
||--
||
||David Connors | da...@codify.com mailto:da...@codify.com  |
||www.codify.com http://www.codify.com
||
||Codify Pty Ltd
||Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61
||417 189
||363
||V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors
||https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors
||Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact
||https://www.codify.com/contact
|
|

RE: New look of Visual Studio, what are your thoughts?

[Bill McCarthy]

Description: Pictographic icons from VS 2010 on the top row with the equivalent 
VS 11 glyphs on the bottom row 

 

Take the comment/uncomment icons. WTF are they meant to represent?

 

/rant

 

It symbolises mankind’s struggle to represent things in black and white ;)

 

 

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of mike smith
Sent: Friday, 24 February 2012 4:35 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: New look of Visual Studio, what are your thoughts?

 

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com wrote:
 We showed off the new look today: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/

  

 Thoughts?

I agree, somewhat, about the colour, but feel you've gone too far towards 
monochrome.  And if you make me learn a new set of damned icons, I won't use 
the bloody thing.  This is one thing I wish Microsoft would stop tinkering 
with.  Icons, menu layouts, dialog layouts.   Some of us don't move on 
completely from one version to another, but use 3 different versions of VS.  Do 
you have any idea how painful this is? 

 Pictographic icons from VS 2010 on the top row with the equivalent VS 11 
glyphs on the bottom row 
http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-29-92-metablogapi/0601.dev10dev11iconsNEW_5F00_thumb_5F00_0CE4BE35.png
  

 

Take the comment/uncomment icons. WTF are they meant to represent?

 

/rant

 



-- 
Meski

 http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv

Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll 
get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills

image001.png

RE: XML Question

[Bill McCarthy]

I'm guessing form the original post, Anthony is using VB, as he was using
xml literal syntax in part.  The VB version would be


  Dim doc = docCredential domain=yyyS
   Identity7118/Identity
   /Credential
   Credential domain=CompanyName
  Identity Services Pty Ltd/Identity
   /Credential
   Credential domain=ABN
  Identity123456/Identity
   /Credential
   Credential domain=BranchID2
  Identity22270/Identity
   /Credential
   Credential domain=Name
  IdentityZZ/Identity
   /Credential
/doc


  Dim item = (From el In doc...Credential Where el.@domain =
BranchID).FirstOrDefault

  Dim value = If(item Is Nothing, 0, item.Identity.Value)

I used FirstOrDefault rather than SingleOrDefault; it would depend on your
business rules if you want to take just the first match (First) or throw an
exception if there is more than one match (Single)




|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Al Gonzalez
|Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2012 9:14 AM
|To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
|Subject: Re: XML Question
|
|Is this what you are trying to do:
|
|static void TestLinq2XMLSelectUsingAttributeValue()
|{
|XElement credentials = new XElement(Credentials,
|MakeCredentialElement(yyyS, 7118),
|MakeCredentialElement(CompanyName, Services Pty Ltd),
|MakeCredentialElement(ABN, 123456),
|MakeCredentialElement(BranchID, 22270),
|MakeCredentialElement(Name, ZZ));
|var branchId = credentials.Descendants(Credential).Where(c =
|c.Attribute(domain).Value == BranchID).SingleOrDefault();
|
|if (branchId != null)
|Console.WriteLine(branchId.Value);
|else
|Console.WriteLine(not found);
|}
|
|static XElement MakeCredentialElement(string domain, string identity) {
|return new XElement(Credential, new XAttribute(domain, domain),
|identity); }
|
|writes out 22270
|
|-Original Message-
|From: ifum...@gmail.com
|Sent: 2/6/2012 4:00 PM
|
|
|Credential domain=yyyS
|
|   Identity7118/Identity
|
|/Credential
|
|Credential domain=CompanyName
|
|   Identity Services Pty Ltd/Identity
|
|/Credential
|
|Credential domain=ABN
|
|   Identity123456/Identity
|
|/Credential
|
|Credential domain=BranchID
|
|   Identity22270/Identity
|
|/Credential
|
|Credential domain=Name
|
|   IdentityZZ/Identity
|
|/Credential
|
|
|
|
|
|   How do i get the SBranchID?  I can use
|Linq.XElement.Parse(rt2).From.Credential(3).Identity.Value but what
if i
|do not know the sequence?
|
|
|
|
|
|   Anthony
|

RE: Making an application that uses identity keys occassionally connected

[Bill McCarthy]

The problem with guids is they are not guaranteed to be unique: there's a
really large probability that they are unique. You still need to deal with
possible collisions. I'm guessing that NEWSEQUENTIALID is probably less
unique than machine generated guids.


|-Original Message-
|From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-
|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh
|Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 11:28 AM
|To: 'ozDotNet'
|Subject: RE: Making an application that uses identity keys occassionally
|connected
|
|Folks, most people here seem to dislike Guids as primary keys. The article
|http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/32597/Performance-Comparison-
|Identity-x-NewId-x-NewSeque  via Bill is quite sobering, showing that
NEWID is
|a shocking performer, but INDENTIY and NEWSEQUENTIALID perform similarly
|well. After reading that I am unlikely to use NEWID again.
|
|
|
|I would still like to hear convincing arguments against NEWSEQUENTIALID.
|Noonie says his DBAs rejected them (why?). Tony hates looking at them in
the
|debugger (that's not a convincing argument for me). Greg L says you might
as
|well get an INT instead (more details?).
|
|
|
|I hope you'll agree that there are times when you want to give rows an
|immutable primary key. Will you also agree that an IDENTITY INT is not
|immutable because it can change when rows move across databases or when
|rows are reorganised or reloaded. If this is so, how on earth do you stamp
your
|rows with an immutable key without using something like Guids?
|
|
|
|Greg