Re: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Bruce,

I think my experience may be helpful to you. The only Lithium battery chemistry 
that we sell is LFP or LFMP, both use Li Iron Phosphate for the cathode. We 
have sold many hundreds of Li battery systems since 2013 and there have been no 
fires reported to us. Our customers include off grid, marine and RV use, 
industrial such as pipeline SCADA controls, law enforcement agencies and more. 
So we have a broad range of customers and applications. 

This chemistry is considered “safer” than others for a number of reasons. I 
recommend you study the report from "The Fire Protection Research Foundation" 
here: 
https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/Hazardous-materials/rflithiumionbatterieshazard.ashx
I'm in no way saying that LFP is always safe but with a well designed 
management system, I believe they are safer than any flooded LA battery and the 
least likely to cause a fire.

A few years ago, I was privy to see destructive tests performed on 2 of the 3 
brands that we offer. In the tests, battery cells (with no BMS or EMS) were 
charged far over recommended voltage, stabbed with spikes at low speed and by 
high speed impact, crushed in a press, and in one case shot with 12 gauge 
shotgun. The results were always an exothermic release of heat and steam or 
smoke but no flames. The results are similar to this comparison video showing 
NMC cells (extreme thermal event) and LFP cells heating up. 
https://youtu.be/bnzxrnS0JkE

ANY Li battery being sold without charge protection below freezing is 
potentially dangerous. There are batteries being sold with only a brief warning 
message or mention in the manual. Instead they should all have active charge 
protection. What if the user accidentally charged a frozen Li battery? 
Depending on current and temperature, Li plating leading to dendrite formation 
will occur. This is a dangerous condition that can continue growth and lead to 
thermal runaway at any time, even long after the damage occurred. Some of you 
are installing these batteries. Don’t ask me to name a brand, just study the 
product you use…for everyones good.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger  wrote:

Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from residential 
or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested in lithium ion 
batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as well.

Thanks!

Bruce



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Did you mean to say LFP? It depends on who made the battery. LFP batteries can 
be charged using CC/CV. Some, like the Elite PS/GBS battery packages can accept 
a simple CV power supply of 3.65 Vpc.

The inverter is always on and isolated from the grid so it’s not affected by 
poor power quality unless you allow ripple or spikes to the battery system. 
That should be protected at the AC input of your charger/PS and PS filtering. 

What is the daily power consumption? If the battery and PS are sized to meet 
your loads, then it won’t matter when the grid is available. Grid Outages 
longer than you design for can be backed up with a generator. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Mar 13, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Jeff Clearwater  
wrote:

Thanks All,

Mick and Tump - I'll look into the Victron - good suggestion - Thanks!

Chris - I'm not sure a transformer will buffer the spikes and frequency but 
just pass them on - others?

Larry and Jerry - If I were to go with the separate battery charger/PS approach 
- what specific  48 V  LFeP battery Charger/PS might you recommend and how to 
protect it with what sort of surge and LV equipment?  If either the inverter or 
PS/Charger is protected within too narrow a range then it might defeat the 
purpose - wanting to maximize pulling in as much opportunity charging as we can 
get.

Seems to me like there might be a market for a highly tolerant battery charger 
between 160-260 VAC and frequency tolerant as well - something bulletproof we 
could put on these systems - perhaps that is the Victron - but I'd rather have 
it in a separate beefy battery charger then risk the inverters - especially if 
we are going to buffer the customer from the grid with the battery/inverter 
system.

For instance we have a hospital that can only use the available grid for the 
office but they can't risk it for their hospital equipment.  But If I could 
pull the grid into batteries safely and always power their loads with the high 
reliability battery/inverter system - now we are talking.

So specific 48V battery chargers that can take it? Any equipment out there 
anyone is aware of?

Thanks!

Jeff

Tump wrote on 3/13/20 2:47 PM:
> Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter charger units. 
> AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, inverter.
> Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / internet 
> access. well thought out product.
>> On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer > <mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Jeff
>> I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC max/mins 
>> with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just disconnect. I did 
>> just do a charger instead of the inverter because the grid was generally low 
>> on frequency but the charger just charged and l see it on optics when that 
>> happens
>> Jerry
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater > <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:
>> Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers,
>> 
>> So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is super 
>> unreliable but on for some hours almost daily.
>> 
>> So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each day 
>> but often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during those 
>> hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go above 260 in 
>> spikes.
>> 
>> The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based system 
>> designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel to the 
>> mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not connected.  They 
>> just install a transfer switch and manually switch or they wire a critical 
>> loads panel to the solar.
>> 
>> This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery 
>> inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid.
>> 
>> MY QUESTION:
>> 
>> I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for opportunity 
>> charging of the batteries while at the same time not subjecting our nice new 
>> battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping and possibly long term 
>> damage.
>> 
>> So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but succesfully 
>> navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are able to take 
>> advantage of the grid even if browning out often?
>> 
>> or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency tolerant 
>> battery charger to the system - keep the battery inverter/charger off grid - 
>> but charge the batteries from something able to handle the wonky grid 
>> without constantly nuisance charging or burning itse

Re: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Jeff,

Why mess with the grids unreliable and potentially harmful power. Go with your 
question 2…. using the power inverters full time with no AC input, no transfer 
switch. You will need a power supply/battery charger large enough to power the 
loads through the inverter and maintain the battery at 100%. Protect the PS 
with the appropriate AC surge or LV protection. With this setup your AC power 
is always on with no brownouts or loss of power.  

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Mar 13, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Jeff Clearwater  
wrote:

Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers,

So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is super 
unreliable but on for some hours almost daily.

So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each day but 
often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during those hours. 
230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go above 260 in spikes.

The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based system 
designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel to the mains 
but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not connected.  They just 
install a transfer switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads 
panel to the solar.

This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery 
inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid.

MY QUESTION:

I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for opportunity 
charging of the batteries while at the same time not subjecting our nice new 
battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping and possibly long term damage.

So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but succesfully 
navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are able to take 
advantage of the grid even if browning out often?

or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency tolerant 
battery charger to the system - keep the battery inverter/charger off grid - 
but charge the batteries from something able to handle the wonky grid without 
constantly nuisance charging or burning itself up?

Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!!

Best,

Jeff


-- 
~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/> 
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com/>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Ray,

Thinking of light weight PV modules reminds me that Uni-Solar is gone. Still 
the highest performance module I have ever tested. Being light weight and 
unbreakable was the icing on the cake if you had the real estate needed due to 
efficiency. My hat is still off to the brilliant inventor Stan Ovshinsky.  

Jay, 
There are Uni-Solar PVL’s floating around. A coupe years ago I found enough to 
build a 4.4kW off grid system. If you have the length necessary, I would highly 
recommend using them instead of the Flexible modules you are considering. 
https://www.amazon.com/Uni-Solar-PVL-68-PowerBond-112-Inch-15-5-Inch/dp/B002MWDI44

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Mar 9, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Ray  wrote:

I 2nd Larry's experience.  I've never seen any flex modules that have held up 
for more than a few years.  Complete degradation in our high altitude UV 
environment.  Glass with monocrystalline cells on the other hand: we still see 
some bronzed out Arco (before Siemens) modules that are over 30 years old with 
decent output.  
Another possible way to follow the curve is with smaller glass modules. We're 
having good luck with little modules down to 10 watts.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/9/20 11:14 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
> Hi Jay,
> 
> We sold/installed flexible modules from various manufacturers for about 5 
> years. When permanently installed, most have a fast degradation of the PET 
> encapsulate leading to blotching, peeling, cracking and pitting. The weight 
> savings is significant and may be worth using for some as long as you don’t 
> expect the longevity of a framed, glass module. Customers using them 
> occasionally as a portable module are experiencing long life.
> 
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 8, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Jay  
> <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> Especially those that do RV,
> 
> Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules?  I find sun power brand, but 
> many others saying “sun power cells”. 
> Prices are of course all over the map. 
> 
> I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar 
> installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than 
> framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc
> 
> If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jay
> Peltz power. 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Jay,

We sold/installed flexible modules from various manufacturers for about 5 
years. When permanently installed, most have a fast degradation of the PET 
encapsulate leading to blotching, peeling, cracking and pitting. The weight 
savings is significant and may be worth using for some as long as you don’t 
expect the longevity of a framed, glass module. Customers using them 
occasionally as a portable module are experiencing long life.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Mar 8, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Jay  wrote:

Hi all,
Especially those that do RV,

Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules?  I find sun power brand, but 
many others saying “sun power cells”. 
Prices are of course all over the map. 

I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar 
installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than 
framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc

If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about

Thanks

Jay
Peltz power. 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusing

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Drake,

Perhaps this fuse holder will work if you want to stay with glass envelope: 
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/46069/Littelfuse-3031-0-In-Line-Fuse-Holder/

We mostly use panel mount breakers for small loads: 
https://www.alliedelec.com/circuit-protection/circuit-breakers/?category=2%7C2510416%2F2301910=In%20Stock%20Only=1%20Pole=50%20VDC%2C48%20VDC

3A example: 
https://www.alliedelec.com/product/te-connectivity/w58-xb1a4a-3/70199433/


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Feb 28, 2020, at 12:35 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

It seems that inline fuse holders and glass fuses are becoming hard to find. 
What is a good way to protect 48 V DC control and instrumentation wires?

Thank you,

Drake





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large Lithium 100 kWh-200kWh

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Mac,

We offer up to 400 kWh energy storage, you choose the DC voltage up to 600Vdc, 
with Elite GBS packages. Our batteries are certified with UL1642 and UL1973 
standards. The BMS system is certified for UL 2580, Recognized component for 
electric vehicles but I’m not sure that will transfer to use in off grid power 
systems.

Please reply off list if you need more info.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103
sa...@starlightsolar.com




On Feb 23, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Mac Lewis  wrote:

Hey wrenches,

What are you using for Lithium in the 100 kWh-200 kWh range?  At what bank 
voltage?  With what inverters?

We are getting more and more inquiries in that range.

Thanks!

-- 



Mac Lewis







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Re: [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

We have used Gigavac in some of our Li-ion EMS systems for many years with 
hundreds in the field and no failures. GX11 good to 800Vdc. 
https://www.gigavac.com/catalog/power-products/gx-series


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Nov 22, 2019, at 8:47 PM, Chris Sparadeo  wrote:

Hi wrenchers,

I am currently on the look out for a DC contactor to suit my needs. A little 
background:

Per Sonnen Batterie tech support’s recommendation I have installed a 10 kW 
SolarEdge HD Wave inventer coupled with the Sonnen Eco 12. Although the Sonnen 
Eco 12 uses an Outback Radian 8kW multimode inverter(of which Outback suggests 
to max AC couple input of 5kW) Sonnen says that AC PV input greater than 8kW 
will require a contactor  to interrupt a string or two of the grid interactive 
inverter so that it’s output will remain less than the max 8kW input. That’s 
fine and well, but when asked directly, Sonnen didn’t have a part # for the 
contactor and suggested that anything over 150V DC would be difficult to find. 
Anyone know of a 600V rated contactor that would suit the bill? Essentially the 
contactor would need to sense grid interruption (via a 15A-AC breaker) and open 
a 600 V rated DC string. 

I’ve done some preliminary searching and have come up empty handed. Any input 
would be greatly appreciated.

Best,

Chris 
-- 
Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
H_802-728-3059

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Dave, Howie, Et al,

With one brand of Li batteries we sell (EPS), if any part of the BMS system 
fails, you can turn the battery power on manually and continue to function 
until the repair is made. All the BMS components are external so it is very 
serviceable by tech or user. Having a spare part is not very expensive. We have 
customers operating these systems for 6 years now and I can attest to the 
success of it. (Other Li battery systems may have similar function)

Concerning moving to 48V, at any time the (EPS) Li battery can be reconfigured 
for 48V provided you have 4 (or 8, 12, etc) battery packs. Converting from 2S2P 
to 4S1P is simple. 

(sorry, ranting ahead) You can also add additional capacity at any time. 
Imagine in 10 years you need more energy storage. With LA, you need to start 
over with all new. Not so with the EPS system. Just buy more cells and BMS and 
reconfigure the CPU. The oldest, lower capacity cells are still usable. It not 
until the minimum V of one cell triggers a shutdown before you have recharged 
the bank that you need to replace cell(s).

Most don’t know that a Li battery can be fully recharged with about 40% less PV 
solar power. Why? Because they absorb current up to about 98% SoC. Absorb time 
is about 10 minutes if you want push them to full. No hours in absorb and 
float, required each day by LA, wasting much of the PV energy that was paid 
for. Another benefit is many LA battery systems experience deficit charges in 
the winter because there are not enough sun-hours. We all know that this 
quickly diminishes the life of a LA battery. 

 When using engine power to charge on those rainy days, the EPS battery system 
can be fully charged in under one hour from ANY SoC!   

Pontificating over for now. I hope this is helpful to you Howie. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Sep 26, 2019, at 3:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  
wrote:

My 2 cents are each client is different and if they have been fine on that one 
set of batteries then do what is in their interest. An inverter is easily 
replaced. I might also suggest to stay with the FLA and avoid possible issues 
with LFP. No matter how good they are in many cases, they still have 
electronics in them that can fail and cause a new way to lose power offgrid.

In my case and quite a few of my offgrid clients I want a complete back-up of 
the battery if LFP is used. That is what is so nice about having multiple 
battery systems. One can fail and each has it's own BMS. A spare LFP system can 
also sit for a year and be fine as long as it gets some exercise. Good Luck 
Howie! All good on those two Schneider xwp and gateway/insight2 systems?

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060
On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:17:47 -0400, Howie Michaelson 
 wrote:

> I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a 
> very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid 
> (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no 
> pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt 
> option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to.  I know the inverter could 
> crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke...
> Howie
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer  <mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my 
> customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not 
> talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid 
> homes. 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson  <mailto:howie.michael...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really 
> like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of 
> experience yet.  I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 
> battery options.  I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap 
> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA,
> Howie
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment - Magnum Energy

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

(my response to private email)
Magnums were designed for the RV industry which depends heavily on generator 
use for AC power. Because of that their allowable input is broad at 50 to 70 Hz 
and 60 to 140 VAC (120 VAC nominal). The customer must have a defective control 
board if it will not allow above 125 Vac. Control boards are not to pricy and 
very easy to replace. Hope that helps.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Sep 24, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
 wrote:

Hi Dave,

I’m curious, can you describe the problem you had with a Magnum inverter and 
the 2000i generator? Since Magnum was founded we have sold and installed their 
inverters to customers using the 2000i, many hundreds of customers. Not one has 
reported a problem. As long as you decrease the charge rate to about 50% or 
less, they work flawlessly. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Sep 24, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>> wrote:

We ended up usine a 50 foot #14 extension cord and the drop got the 2000i to 
play nice with the magnum. Outback and Schneider have a much wider input range 
and this was an older Magnum.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment - Magnum Energy

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Dave,

I’m curious, can you describe the problem you had with a Magnum inverter and 
the 2000i generator? Since Magnum was founded we have sold and installed their 
inverters to customers using the 2000i, many hundreds of customers. Not one has 
reported a problem. As long as you decrease the charge rate to about 50% or 
less, they work flawlessly. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Sep 24, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  
wrote:

We ended up usine a 50 foot #14 extension cord and the drop got the 2000i to 
play nice with the magnum. Outback and Schneider have a much wider input range 
and this was an older Magnum.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Andrew,

Any phrase that includes “per hour” while describing power use, generation or 
storage in a RE system is probably a misnomer. Think about it: you could just 
as well say 25kW per second or per month. That’s because kW is a term that 
describes a rate or power, not a quantity of energy used or stored; kWh defines 
that. 

In our retail store I have heard this term hundreds of times. While I am 
describing the difference between Watts and Watt-Hours, which is typically the 
source of  confusion, I ask, “Would you say that your car has a 200HP “per 
hour” engine?” No, you would just say 200HP because you are describing power.

So, if you meant the combined loads require 25kW to operate, use that number to 
determine inverter or generator sizes. If you are describing 25kWh of energy 
use or storage, use that to determine power production and battery bank size.

To your question: I am a fan of using Li-ion batteries for the long life, 
weight and space savings, no maintenance, much higher charge rates, fastest 
recharging, and the 40% reduction in the PV system size compared to LA storage. 
Plus you get battery protection and monitoring included. Since you never have 
to fully charge them, for offgrid use, the advantages are huge. For people 
making  growing weeds, buy the best. Contact me off the list if you would 
like more understanding about Li battery storage. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
la...@starlightsolar.com


On Sep 6, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Andrew  wrote:
Yeah these are for industrial cannabis operations that are starting to spring 
up due to legalization..36” industrial greenhouse fans, pre vegetation 
lighting, supplemental light and dehumidifiers… why they still want to do it in 
the middle of the boonies with now power is beyond me..
 
Andrew Perkins
Greenwired
P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100
1150 #1 Evergreen Rd
Redway, CA 95560


On Sep 5, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Andrew  wrote:

Hey Everyone,
I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for 
some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have 
for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems?  I could do 2 triple 
stack Schneider’s and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just 
takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with 
package units. Thoughts? 
 
Andrew Perkins
Greenwired
P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100
1150 #1 Evergreen Rd
Redway, CA 95560

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Jay,

Within the next couple of weeks LiFeBlue Battery will be shipping the new Low 
temperature models. They have a heater built in and if the cells are below 
32°F, charge current is diverted to heat the cells above freezing before 
transferring full charge current. All handled by the internal BMS. 

You can build a box and add a silicone type heater with a temp controller. I’ve 
bought items like that on eBay for about $25. See photo.



Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On May 16, 2019, at 4:41 PM, jay  wrote:

HI All,

I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium battery 
in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps.

Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom design 
issue to build a heating system?  
( insulation and heaters)

Thanks,

jay

peltz power



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries - Li-ion battery warning

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Howie,

You should be aware that Discover Li-ion battery does not have adequate 
protection to prevent damage if charged below freezing. The data sheet (see 
attachment) shows that you can charge the battery down to -4°F and adds a text 
warning not to charge below 32°F. 

"Care should be taken to ensure that the battery’s temperature is > 0°C (32°F) 
during charging."

Charging any Li battery below freezing will permanently damage the battery and 
create a future fire hazard. This is no problem if you can insure that the 
cells always stay above freezing. 

IMO, it makes no sense why any Li battery manufacturer does not fully protect 
their battery. (I know of others) It is simple to inhibit charge current based 
on cell temperature. To me this can create a ticking time bomb. Someone 
unknowingly charges a frozen battery. The danger shows up later when the 
separator is penetrated by dendrite growth caused by lithium plating of the 
anode. This happened when they charged a frozen battery. Dendrite growth can 
lead to internal shorting which can be a fire hazard.

It would be wise to install these in a sealed metal enclosure or provide 
another method to prevent charge current when below freezing.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On May 3, 2019, at 12:45 PM, Howie Michaelson  
wrote:

Hi Folks,
About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a heavy 
user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost effective.  
We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the backup 
component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he wanted to be 
sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he was using (making 
up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a dual stacked XW 6848, 
mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in a transfer switch and 
only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
(2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
(3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider 
Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into the 
SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated cycle life 
so higher lifetime energy capacity.

Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size allowing 
for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse and 
disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.

If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my comparison, I'd 
greatly appreciate it.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Well, perhaps I was on track anyway….you can use the same method (flip every other battery) if you are using a battery with 2 terminals per pole (like Lifeline).Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems

Fullriver DC1150-2 wiring.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document


On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:Sorry Drake, I should read better…you said Concorde.
Larry

On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:Hi Drake,The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other battery 180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I attached a diagram as it is easier to see than to describe.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems

On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2
terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they
will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this
situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a
solution.
Does anyone know of a source for busbars?
Thank you,
Drake 
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Sorry Drake, I should read better…you said Concorde.
Larry



On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
 wrote:

Hi Drake,

The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other battery 
180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I attached a 
diagram as it is easier to see than to describe.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 
terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be 
wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. 
Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution.

Does anyone know of a source for busbars?

Thank you,

Drake 

 <>Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/ <http://athens-electric.com/> 




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Drake,The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other battery 180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I attached a diagram as it is easier to see than to describe.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems

untitled.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document


On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake  wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2
terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they
will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this
situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a
solution.
Does anyone know of a source for busbars?
Thank you,
Drake 
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Glenn,

Simply because he specified the energy removed during the time period was about 
6kWh. The 100Hr rate capacity for this cell is 1150Ah or about 55kWh of storage 
in the bank.  55kWh/100 = about 550W which are the claimed overnight loads. 
Using the 20Hr rate (960AH) would indicate higher loads or a greater percentage 
of capacity loss. I was just trying to give a more accurate consumption total 
to compare voltage.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Apr 19, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:

Hi Larry,
 
I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and not 
the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting the 
anomaly. Happy to learn the details!
 
Thanks,
Glenn 
 
From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Starlight 
Solar Power Systems
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery
 
Mac,
 
Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the 
voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage 
should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when the 
AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage drop but 
I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked.
 
Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries do 
that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has cell 
voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge been 
performed? 
 
I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for 
EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain these 
cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes place. 
But, thats off point.
 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
 
 

 
On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 
Hello Wrenches,
 
We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via 
Optics.  Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string 
of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at 
C20.
 
I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves.  We 
keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the 
night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from 
the battery bank.  I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery 
set-points are a bit different than I'm used to.
 
As per Outback:
Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours
Float Voltage is 54.0V
 
I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a 
bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). 
2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V.
 
 
The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr 
absorb time) every day.  The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated.
 
The load on the system is pretty consistent.  They use between 400 and 600W 
throughout the night.
 
An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 
minute start voltage and it starts the generator.
 
Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries 
are degraded.  What corrective changes can I make to get better performance?
 
I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as 
well.
 
Thanks as always for your expertise
 
-- 
 
 
 
Mac Lewis



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Mac,

Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the 
voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage 
should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when the 
AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage drop but 
I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked.

Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries do 
that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has cell 
voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge been 
performed? 

I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for 
EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain these 
cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes place. 
But, thats off point.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis  wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via 
Optics.  Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string 
of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at 
C20.

I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves.  We 
keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the 
night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from 
the battery bank.  I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery 
set-points are a bit different than I'm used to.

As per Outback:
Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours
Float Voltage is 54.0V

I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a 
bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). 
2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V.


The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr 
absorb time) every day.  The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated.

The load on the system is pretty consistent.  They use between 400 and 600W 
throughout the night.

An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 
minute start voltage and it starts the generator.

Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries 
are degraded.  What corrective changes can I make to get better performance?

I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as 
well.

Thanks as always for your expertise

-- 



Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

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Re: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Kienan,

First, my advice is be sure to have a release of liability signed by the owner 
before you start working on this system. Improperly treated or poorly designed 
Li batteries can be dangerous. A major problem with the upswing of Li batteries 
being imported is poorly designed and undocumented BMS's. There are MANY 
startup Li companies (over 2000 on www.madeinchina.com) that have no problem 
exaggerating themselves and their products. I am flooded with emails from these 
companies.

This type of battery chemistry, LiFePO4 or LFP, is the safest cell chemistry of 
Li batteries on the market but that won’t matter as much if the BMS does not 
have all appropriate protections. It is highly unlikely that there is no BMS, 
but possible. Note that not all drop-in type Li batteries can be used series. 
The BMS must be designed for series connection. 

It is safe to conduct the test that Jay recommended. First understand that in 
order to use these 12 volt packs in series, all battery packs must be 
individually fully charged before series connection is made so the SoC of each 
pack is identical.  If you test just one battery pack, it must be returned to 
the same SoC as all other batteries. Therefore for testing, I recommend 
charging the entire battery pack to 58.4V. Disconnect the battery bank pull one 
battery and apply about 16 volts (this is safe for testing any LFP chemistry). 
If the battery reaches 16V and has not turned off, these batteries should not 
be used.

I recently was at a show and saw a 12 volt LFP battery with the warning on the 
label: DO NOT CHARGE BELOW FREEZING. The sales rep was clueless why and tried 
to tell me it really did not really matter. It matters! Lithium plating is a 
hazardous degradation mechanism that happens primarily when charging a cell 
below 32°. This will typically accelerate dendrite formation. Dendrite growth 
can tear the separator and cause internal short circuit at any time in the 
future of the battery. This can cause spontaneous combustion. 

If the DKD battery can be charged below freezing or does not have low and high 
voltage disconnect, it may be a dangerous battery without external control. Did 
you get that release form yet?

Just FYI about us, since 2013 we have designed and sold Li battery power 
systems now numbering hundreds of customers.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:23 AM, Kienan Maxfield  wrote:

Hello all,

I just got back from looking at an off-grid system that is only about 4 months 
old or so, and it has several problems. I have specialized in off-grid for 8 
years, so most of the problems will be easy for me, but there's just one thing 
that is a bit perplexing and I'm hoping someone might have some advice.

The system was "designed" by some retailer in Texas (I don't know who) and the 
home-owner found some local installer to put it together for him (they already 
charged a ridiculous price and they won't come back). The battery is a big bank 
of DKD LiFePO4 batteries, each one says 100 Ah @ 12.8V. They are in series sets 
of 4 for 48V. I think there were 5 strings (500 ah total). There are no com 
wires from battery to battery or anything like that (nor did I find anywhere 
for com ports). I have not yet been successful in finding any information about 
these batteries online. I'm not that familiar with this type of battery and I'm 
hoping that some of you might have some info/insight on a couple of questions 
about this situation. Here's a picture of one of the batteries,



The biggest question is if this configuration is okay. I'm not familiar with 
this type of batteries, but I saw at least one brand that said not to put their 
batteries in series. They said that (at least with their brand) if you needed a 
48V battery, you couldn't use (4) 12V batteries.
Does anybody have any thoughts (positive or negative) or experiences with these 
batteries? 
Does anybody have any technical information (like a voltage/SOC curve or 
anything else) for these batteries?
I will be fixing the other things in his system, but when he asks what I think 
about his battery bank, I don't know what to tell him at this point. He also 
has no idea how to tell how full his batteries are, and since it doesn't seem 
like his batteries have any kind of readout or anything, I'm not sure what to 
tell him on that either. If I could find a Voltage/SOC curve or a voltage/SOC 
conversion table, that would help on that front.

Thank-you,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com <mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell) (preferable contact number)

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

William,

It seems this question needs to be addressed: What is the intended meaning of 
“installed in one system” in 2014? If you have separate “systems”, they should 
not be governed by 705.12. So, at what point does a “system” begin and end? PV 
modules to the disconnect? ...to the load panel? ...to the service entrance?

Larry


On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:42 PM, William Miller  wrote:

August:
 
The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the following:
 
(1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source
interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one
system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible
disconnecting means.
 
Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), and “at 
a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular).  This makes it obvious to me 
that the language says that the outputs of multiple inverters need to be 
aggregated and connected via one OCPD.  I think the other wrenches missed this 
point.
 
Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code with that 
of the 2017 version.  The inclusion of the phrase “Each source…” in the 2017 
code completely changes the meaning.  Some AHJs will look to future code 
versions for clarity even if they are not yet adopted.  I think this is a good 
thing, and I really appreciate you bringing up the new language.
 
The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the 2014 
code.  Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to allow the more 
liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code reflects.  I find it best to 
contact the plan checker directly, which I did, and we are approved for 
multiple OCPDs.  By the way, I think that article is well written and I have 
book marked it.
 
I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or what the 
thinking was of the authors.  Regardless, we live by the language, not the 
intent.
 
Thank you as well to all who responded.
 
William Miller
 
 
 
 
From: August Goers [mailto:aug...@luminalt.com ] 
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM
To: William Miller; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters
 
Hi William - 
 
In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance:
 

 
I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your main.
 
August
Luminalt
 
 
On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:
> Friends:
>  
> I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project.  It is a home that has an 
> existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system.  The owner wants to add 
> another 10 kW of grid-tied PV.  My question is about 705.12, point of 
> connection.  Specifically section (D)(1).  That section states: 
>  
> The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system 
> shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means.
>  
> So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have to 
> be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker?  This might be difficult to 
> do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different sub-panel than the 
> one that is planned to receive the new inverter output.
>  
> This article 
>  
> addresses the question.
>  
> I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might 
> have in interpreting this section of the code.
>  
> Thanks in advance.
>  
> William
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

There was some off board chatter about this subject but I think it is useful to 
some to copy my comments on the board.

If a Li battery EMS or BMS detects a fault condition, it can cause an open 
circuit to the battery. As the battery owner gets familiar with their new 
energy storage system, this will likely happen. If high current is flowing, 
connected devices need to be able to handle that condition without harm.

Morningstar notified us (about 4 year ago) that this event could cause damage 
to their controller. That’s puzzling to me because OCV also happens if your 
battery circuit protection opens.

We mostly sell Midnite and Blue Sky Energy controllers with some Outback in the 
mix. No failures have been reported to us.  

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Jan 7, 2019, at 7:46 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:

I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 batteries 
on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would go dark within 
a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From what I've gathered 
so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The distributor sent out one 
of their techs, but it looks like they missed a few adjustments.. The biggie is 
their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode within a day of being connected to 
these guys, and now OB tells me the CC lost it's FETs and that's pretty common 
with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the tech came out to commission the bank, one of 
the terminals on a battery melted and another distorted.. the customer has a 
few more days to accept the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments?


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com <http://www.foxfire-energy.com/>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Howie,

We have many hundreds of Li battery systems sold and installed. Never had any 
failure of PV controllers including Outback due to charging Li-ion.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jan 7, 2019, at 11:23 AM, Howie Michaelson  
wrote:

Hey Dan,
Are you saying that OB is claiming that NiFePO4 batteries are smoking their 
charge controllers? Do they say why?  Is this also true of LiFePO4 batteries?  
If you wouldn't mind mentioning which battery manufacture you are dealing with?
Thanks,
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 11:06 AM mailto:d...@foxfire-energy.com>> wrote:
I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 batteries 
on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would go dark within 
a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From what I've gathered 
so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The distributor sent out one 
of their techs, but it looks like they missed a few adjustments.. The biggie is 
their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode within a day of being connected to 
these guys, and now OB tells me the CC lost it's FETs and that's pretty common 
with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the tech came out to commission the bank, one of 
the terminals on a battery melted and another distorted.. the customer has a 
few more days to accept the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments?


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cost

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Jay,

EV battery packs will always be less than the type we use in the RE industry. 
Chevy Bolt replacement battery in 2017 is $262/kWh according to this: 
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110881_how-much-is-a-replacement-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car-battery

Over the last 5 years, two brands we sell have stayed the same cost, another 
brand we offer has lowered cost by 15%. I think the latter is due to our volume 
though. Our retail price is less than $700/kWh for cells and battery packs 
without EMS. A little more with EMS or BMS. 

I receive many solicitations from manufacturers that want me to sell their 
Li-ion product (60 to 200AH cell sizes). Prices quoted for small orders (100 
pieces) are under $300/kWh, FOB China. Importing has always been a hassle and 
typical shipping and import cost adds about 10% more. With so many start-ups in 
the Li battery business, buyer beware. I hear stories from customers too often 
about a great deal they got and now the battery has failed and they get no 
response from the seller or manufacturer. 

Rather than cost reductions, I believe the future will show advancement in 
cycle life as this is the holy grail being sought by so many. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Dec 20, 2018, at 6:05 PM, Jay  wrote:


Hi all,

I was doing some research on the Chevy bolt, and found that it’s battery cost 
about $145 per kWh in 2015. 

All the batteries I can find for sale for offgrid small systems ( 10-100 kWh) 
are in the $700-1000 per kWh

Does anyone have insight into this. 
Or maybe better put, ways to buy at closer to the $145 kWh?

Thanks

Jay
Peltz power. 





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Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Let me confirm what William has shared about Deka/MK 8D AGM batteries; they 
have a very high failure rate. We saw over 40% fail within 2-3 years of 
installation. Deka would not own up to the problem and offered no compensation.

Fullriver has been the finest AGM we have ever sold. All DC models are 
excellent. We especially like the 2 volt L-16’s for high capacity systems. We 
had one failure, and I know of one other, where L16 batteries went into thermal 
runaway. The cases welded together. After fully testing the power system that 
we designed and installed, we found no problem. Fullriver would not offer any 
help or replacement. 

Our installations are 100% battery based. When I do see failures I have many 
other identical power systems to compare with (in the thousands, we do 5-8 per 
week) and this helps me make sound judgements about our findings. 

Larry Crutcher

3 year old Deka 8D


1.5 year old Fullriver L-16



On Nov 28, 2018, at 11:43 PM, William Miller  wrote:

Allan:

We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka).  Many of them have 
had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding.  Your 
point about the inefficient footprint is right on.

I have minimal experience with Full River.  I have seen a set fail, but heck, 
anyone can do that in a hurry.

When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka Unigy.  
Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the cells come in 
lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity.  It may be worth checking 
into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they rack up.  I don’t have 
but a smattering of drawings for the models we have purchased, but my cursory 
look indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars,  but you may gain a smaller 
footprint with some Unigy racks in series.

William


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Infinia Stirling linear alternators generators

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Thank you Hilton and Darryl. That explains what I’m seeing here in Yuma: A 90kW 
installation that went slowly, and is now entirely, off line. 

These are the linear alternator design. Any chance your friend will have 
technical documents?

Larry



On Nov 24, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Hilton Dier  wrote:

A friend of mine worked for them. I believe they went bankrupt and/or got 
bought out. Seemed like the usual high tech startup management cluster_. 
Tech guys trying to do finance and finance guys trying to do tech. 

They had a good idea in that the 3kW engine didn’t require the complicated heat 
exchanger of larger machines. It had a linear alternator design, which 
simplified things as well. They also developed a cheaper mirror. 

Their problem was that the price of PV dropped so much that they couldn’t 
compete in turnkey $/kWh. There are a few orphaned arrays out there with nobody 
to do O

Unsolicited opinion: solar Stirling is a non-starter in a world of cheap PV. 
Stirling does have a place in small scale cogeneration.

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM...equalizing AGM

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Dan, Jay,…

I’m a huge fan of equalizing AGM batteries often. Some mfg. forbid it; some 
recommend it for corrective procedure for lost capacity. From 16 years of 
simple observation and thousands of battery systems installed, customers that 
equalize AGM’s are getting much longer battery life compared to charging to 
Mfg. specs. only. 

A short EQ of 30 minutes after absorption is complete seems to be key. If the 
battery is healthy, current is extremely low at the end of Absorb. Applying 2.6 
Vpc, the current rises for a short time then drops back very low. There is not 
enough current or time to create heat or pressure to release moisture. 

The EQ cycle we recommend is every 10 days or less frequently. One customer 
that equalizes daily is at 13 years on a set of Lifeline (Concorde) GPL-4CT 
batteries. Others are at 10-12 years. Customers that do not EQ seem to get 4-6 
years. 

This is all anecdotal but having some understanding what is happening in the 
electrochemical process makes me a believer. Through charging and discharging, 
some less active areas of the plates retain unconverted lead sulphate after 
normal charging. These areas of sulfate continue to grow in hardness and size 
with each cycle and eventually form a layer with strong bonds that can't be 
removed through normal charging. Once this process starts (perhaps within 30 
days!), these bonds continue to increase. My belief is that by applying a 
temporary high voltage after most PbSO4 has been recombined, these areas are 
targeted for recombination. Slowing the growth of irreversible sulfation 
results in retaining higher capacity and thus longer cycle life. Just my 
opinion developed over the years it took me to acquire a gray beard. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Nov 22, 2018, at 11:18 AM, jay  wrote:

Hi Dan,

Curious about your statement on no EQ for AGM.
FullRiver, Rolls and many others have a EQ or sometimes called  "conditioning 
charge” or something similar, that is recommended for specific situations.
I am not saying that all AGM can/should have a EQ/conditioning charge.  Some 
can, some can’t,  OEM/model specific. 


For example I was given the following info from Full River  ( 400-6 model) if 
the batteries are showing signs of low capacity.  While they mention this low 
capacity situation in the manual, they don’t list the following info.  I had to 
call them to get it.

For 48v battery:
Charge to 60v
4-6 hrs 
Charge first thing in the am
3 days in a row
1 x year 

Jay

Peltz Power


> On Nov 22, 2018, at 8:23 AM, Dan Fink  <mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> All;  I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could 
> temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled small-capacity 
> batteries is not possible. 
> 
> I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while 
> watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery 
> tester. 
> 
> I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test 
> results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of 
> battery replacement in this situationyou will be the loser who "wrecked 
> his system."
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray mailto:r...@solarray.com> 
> wrote:
> Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan,  a system 
> wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series 
> connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and discharge 
> evenly.  Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule, so I'm 
> surprised it lasted even 5 years.  My guess is that some of the batteries are 
> toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they were so grossly 
> imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the best ones for a 
> couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is "Batteries are 
> the Weakest Link".  The customer is not going to have a decent experience 
> until they replace that mess with a properly sized and wired battery bank 
> from a reputable manufacturer.
> 
> I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff.  I don't 
> need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again.  
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
>> Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery 
>> bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought these 
>> new, that's a very expensive battery bank!
>> 
>> Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed 
>> lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch 
>> of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc."
>> 
>> My BS me

Re: [RE-wrenches] SOC and LFP batteries and TriMetric

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Allan,

All LFP batteries can be charged to a much higher voltage than we will ever 
use. Some as high as 4.2Vpc. A disconnect voltage of 3.8 Vpc is typical 
protection voltage for LFP batteries which is below the well maximum charge 
voltage. Some recommend charging to 3.65Vpc, others a little less. 56.4 is low 
at 3.52V. Our cell balancers don’t even start to function until 3.5 volts and 
above. Using a  low voltage can also cause a problem with the SoC calculations.

Using a Trimetric is easy if you use a high enough charge voltage of 3.55Vpc or 
higher and charge at .5C or less.  
You can use L1 settings only, P7 Off. 
Simply setup the reset parameter P1 voltage about 0.2V below charge voltage. 
Leave P2 Charge Amps off. 
Set P3 AH to match actual capacity. 
When voltage parameter is met, you are close enough and it resets to 100%. This 
is due to internal resistance. Your voltage will not go high until you are at 
about 98% or so.

FWIW, if your concern is about harming the Li cells, we have never had a single 
cell failure. We have had several ruined cells from neglect caused by over 
discharging when people did not follow EMS assembly instructions. With 4 cells 
in a 12 volt battery pack, I am talking about thousands of cells we have sold 
in the last 5 years. LFP is rugged, very fast to charge and will last a long 
time with little care.

When I read things about Li batteries on the internet, it makes my head spin 
from all the folklore, falsehoods and fear-born myths. Careful what you read.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Aug 21, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Sindelar Solar  wrote:

Yes, I just did. Ralph retired last year and I spoke with the new owner. In 
short, little change - use 2% of capacity for amp threshold and set CEF to 98% 
from default 94%. I was also told to stick with the default 14.1V voltage 
threshold, but that equates to 56.4V for a 48V system, which is above the 
normal range of these batteries, so I'm reluctant to take that advice.

I'm working with Kyle Bolger of Blue Planet on this first installation, and 
will post to the list what I learn that will benefit others.

Thank you, Allan


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Re: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Lou,

On some of the Li battery brands that we sell, if the shunt current is +/- 1 
Amp from zero, the current is not counted. On larger systems I have seen +/-2 
Amps not counted. If the system spends much time there, counting error can 
accumulate. A battery can shut down on LV while the SoC meter still shows a 
high percentage. We have seen this several time from customers that don’t want 
to fully charge thinking they will make the Li battery last longer (damn 
internet blog myths). The solution is to fully charge regularly where the SoC 
counter is automatically reset when full charge parameters are met. 

If you can force the FNDC SoC to reset each time you full charge, it may 
provide better accuracy between your two counters. We often use Magnum Energy 
ME-BMK and it is always very close to the Li battery SoC because they both 
reset at full charge. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Aug 17, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lou Russo  wrote:

Hello All,

Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the 
Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have 
several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating 
directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a 
typical  24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% 
of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are 
reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable.

Any help or thoughts on this subject  would be greatly appreciated.  

Aloha,

Lou Russo
l...@spreesolarsystems.com <mailto:l...@spreesolarsystems.com>
808 345 6762
Spree Solar Systems LLC 
CT-34322

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithionics Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Jason,

I just visited the Lithionics website...it’s been a while. It appears they now 
have a form of external BMS. May be worth a further look. I was remembering an 
older product with internal energy management which they still sell.

Larry



On Aug 16, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
 wrote:

Hi Jason,

We have been selling and installing Li-ion batteries for 5 years with hundreds 
of customers (we ship batteries every day). I would not recommend using that 
type of battery for your application. We have sold a few small 24 and 48V 
systems using LiFeBlue and Relion Battery and had a problem with one system. 
The EMS on a drop-in Li battery is internal and functions independently. If one 
battery turns off on a fault, you loose all power on that string. With a 
parallel path (string) still functioning, the strings are now becoming 
unbalanced. When the battery is restored, you have 2 different SoC’s for the 2 
strings. Not a good scenario and it could lead to cascading trouble. 

I recommend using a battery system with external EMS (example Elite Power 
Solutions https://www.elitepowersolutions.com/bms/ 
<https://www.elitepowersolutions.com/bms/>). Everything is field serviceable 
and if the EMS does turn off, there are simple ways to continue using the 
battery until it is repaired. Much happier customer. 

You can contact me off the list or call if you would like further advise. 

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103



On Aug 16, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>> 
wrote:

Does anyone have experience with this brand from Florida? I have a client with 
a system where the batteries were neglected by the prior property owner and 
have failed, so it's time for an expensive replacement. I want to make sure a 
drop-in replacement is the best option for this client, or should I consider 
another option? It's about 110aH @ 51V x 8 batteries, total of about 44 kWh 
rated capacity.

Jason Szumlanski
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithionics Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Jason,

We have been selling and installing Li-ion batteries for 5 years with hundreds 
of customers (we ship batteries every day). I would not recommend using that 
type of battery for your application. We have sold a few small 24 and 48V 
systems using LiFeBlue and Relion Battery and had a problem with one system. 
The EMS on a drop-in Li battery is internal and functions independently. If one 
battery turns off on a fault, you loose all power on that string. With a 
parallel path (string) still functioning, the strings are now becoming 
unbalanced. When the battery is restored, you have 2 different SoC’s for the 2 
strings. Not a good scenario and it could lead to cascading trouble. 

I recommend using a battery system with external EMS (example Elite Power 
Solutions https://www.elitepowersolutions.com/bms/). Everything is field 
serviceable and if the EMS does turn off, there are simple ways to continue 
using the battery until it is repaired. Much happier customer. 

You can contact me off the list or call if you would like further advise. 

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103



On Aug 16, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
 wrote:

Does anyone have experience with this brand from Florida? I have a client with 
a system where the batteries were neglected by the prior property owner and 
have failed, so it's time for an expensive replacement. I want to make sure a 
drop-in replacement is the best option for this client, or should I consider 
another option? It's about 110aH @ 51V x 8 batteries, total of about 44 kWh 
rated capacity.

Jason Szumlanski
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Small system lithium or equivalent battery technology

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

http://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html
Bluetooth communications with the EMS built in.







On Jun 7, 2018, at 11:56 AM, cwarfel  wrote:

I am trying to redesign a couple hundred watt load off-grid system by first 
focusing on the battery technology.  The Li based battery "packages" I am aware 
of are essentially for a residence, which is too large for this application. 
Can you recommend a manufacturer of Li batteries that can be used in an off 
grid application that had safe battery charging capabilities as part of its 
product line.  Currently, 2 Trojan L16s are being used, which, while is a fine 
battery, is limited in its depth of discharge.  Thanks for any info/help.  Chris
-- 

 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978
 
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Steve,

Here is another similar installation. There is air space on top of and some 
between the battery. Many of our installations have the AGM batteries 
completely sealed in a box. 17 years of installing battery systems like this 
and not one single problem.  

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





On May 10, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Steve Higgins <st...@surrette.com> wrote:

Larry, 

Do you have any pic's of them installed? 

That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed. 

I do have two questions for you... 

Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries? 

Where was the temp sensor? 




 <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/>Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Disappearing Thread

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Sorry…to fast on reply…I have received the messages I sent.

Larry Crutcher






On May 11, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
<la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

I have sent 4 replies and none are showing.

Larry

On May 11, 2018, at 10:32 AM, Mark Frye <ma...@berkeleysolar.com> wrote:

Could have sworn there was a thread here about melted batteries, but it not 
showing in my email client anymore.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Disappearing Thread

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I have sent 4 replies and none are showing.

Larry

On May 11, 2018, at 10:32 AM, Mark Frye  wrote:

Could have sworn there was a thread here about melted batteries, but it not 
showing in my email client anymore.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Here is a photo of before I removed the deformed battery. The Magnum temp 
sensor was on one battery and the PV controller sensor on the other. I do not 
believe anything external caused this failure. Perhaps a shorted cell allowed 
the charger to pass high current continuously.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On May 10, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Steve Higgins <st...@surrette.com> wrote:

Larry, 

Do you have any pic's of them installed? 

That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed. 

I do have two questions for you... 

Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries? 

Where was the temp sensor? 




 <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/>Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com <mailto:st...@surrette.com>
  
<http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery> <http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery>  
<> <http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery>  <> 
<https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery>  <> 
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering> <> 
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery> 
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
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and all copies.

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
<la...@starlightsolar.com <mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:
Wrenches, 

Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every 
charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. 
The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and 
spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were 
dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after 
installation. 

After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another 
set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused 
together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of 
two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period 
but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the 
warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to 
the reporting date being grater than 24 months.

I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I agree….that is something we have never done. These batteries are same date 
and both new when installed.

Larry



On May 10, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Rick Brown  
wrote:

I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is not 
recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with potentially extreme 
temps can lead to thermal runaway. 

rick brown
SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC
Electrical & Solar Contracting Services
www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com 
Check, Virginia 24072
540.808.9502 

VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660
VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762
VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer  
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21

On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maver...@mavericksolar.com 
" > wrote:

> Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain 
> excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp 
> sensor on charging source?
> What size interconnect cables were used? 
> Was it a bus system? 
> Absorb with End Amps was turned on?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Both were new, same date batteries. 
Currents are so low there is no heat problem. 
Even Charging at 70 Amps does not produce much heat even after a few hours.
The batteries did expand into the containing box. Note that with many hundreds 
of similar installations, this is the only one that had this heat event.
Cables were 2/0 between and to the bus bar. No terminal heating took place.
Absorb ends after time only. Also, the alternator charges while driving at 13.9 
volts. Neither is a problem since current will drop to about 0.7 after 
saturation.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On May 10, 2018, at 3:02 PM, maver...@mavericksolar.com wrote:

Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain 
excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp 
sensor on charging source?
What size interconnect cables were used? 
Was it a bus system? 
Absorb with End Amps was turned on?

Sent from my iPhone

On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar <mjmornings...@gmail.com 
<mailto:mjmornings...@gmail.com>> wrote:

> 
> One year old. Well looked after system. 
> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
> <la...@starlightsolar.com <mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Wrenches, 
>> 
>> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
>> thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every 
>> charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause 
>> found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her 
>> RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the 
>> batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd 
>> month after installation. 
>> 
>> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another 
>> set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused 
>> together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know 
>> of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty 
>> period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond 
>> the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement 
>> do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months.
>> 
>> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
>> Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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[RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Wrenches, 

Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every 
charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. 
The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and 
spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were 
dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after 
installation. 

After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another 
set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused 
together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of 
two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period 
but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the 
warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to 
the reporting date being grater than 24 months.

I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire damage

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Kris,

With liquidation companies like Sun Electronics, where I see a new 280 Watt 
module for about $100 and some used 300W for 84 bucks, why would you consider 
used, possibly damaged modules that need to be removed and tested? There is 
“cheap" and there is “a fool and his money”. I recommend cheap instead.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On May 4, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Kristopher Schmid <sol...@legacysolar.com> wrote:

Greetings wrenches,

I have a client that is looking to buy some salvaged modules off of a building 
that was near a fire.  What kind of potential issues can you anticipate?  
Smoke, heat, etc.  Would it be enough to just test voc and isc for a known cell 
temp and irradiance in addition to a visual inspection or would an iv curve 
trace be necessary?

Thanks for any information,
Kris


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hey Bob,

It may not be that a modified square wave is causing the problem but rather 
your MSW. At 20 years old, I bet you have ringing on the waveform of your 
inverter (voltage overshoot during switching). Look at it with a scope. I have 
seen 10-12 year old inverters hitting 300+ volts PP on the spikes. Some 
equipment will see that voltage and prevent operation and other equipment will 
hum along (pun intended) blissfully. 

We have had a couple of problems with magnum inverters working with specific 
loads. It would be best to test one before committing to it. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Apr 23, 2018, at 11:33 AM, RE Ellison <reelli...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has been 
no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with his 
Chevy bolt

Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re 
discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger would 
work in this situation? 

Thought that I would check with the knowledge base !

Thanks
Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Mac,

A company called Luminous Renewable Energy Solutions Pvt. Ltd. had taken over 
the SWWP line. My last email with them was in 2013. I notice that their website 
is not up but perhaps they sold or changed something. 

http://www.luminousrenewable.com/ 
email r...@luminousrenewable.com 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Mar 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello wrenches,

I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine.  We didn't 
install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original 
installer left town.  The site recently experienced prolonged relatively high 
winds for 3-4 days.  After that, he went out and noticed that the tail is stuck 
in the side-furling position.






  I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but 
looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even a 
new casting.  Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for this 
turbine?  Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking at?  At 
last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all electrical 
checks.

Thanks in advance for your expertise


Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pump LCBs

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hey Chris,

Might be a long-shot but check with Frank at BZ Products. Rings a bell but 
can’t think why.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Feb 28, 2018, at 1:22 PM, ch...@oasismontana.com wrote:

Dear people:

I have a fellow looking for a supplier of LCBs for their PV pumping projects; 
here are the specifications.  Nominal voltage, 48V; nominal PV input 48V; 
maximum PV input 60V; max output voltage 60V; max output amps 10A;  in a Nema 4 
enclosure; rhe most important is to have an early start in low light conditions 
on 5VDC.  In 5Vdc on MPPT must start the motor (minimum starting voltage). 

It appears Solar Converters is no more...and Dankoff is not being of assistance 
on this matter.  Any other suggestions?  THANKS!


Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com  




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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Daniel,

Quote "I have to plan out a new protective setup to try to ensure that if the 
temperatures drop and the battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just 
charge the battery back up on it's own."

Quote “...But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a 
bit too much,…”

Quote “…best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F..."

As I mentioned, these features are already built into the Li EMS system of 2 
brands that we sell and likely other brands. No need to reinvent it.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:15 AM, Daniel Young <dyo...@dovetailsolar.com> wrote:

These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new
protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the
battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up
on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip
breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be
manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery
warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge
them.

My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but
they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if
not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some
cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a
bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my
opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish.

Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an
option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will
have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the
info, and the choice.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Drake,

I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a human 
overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our set-it-forget it, 
automated world.

One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. Once 
any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. For many 
systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery will turn on. Some 
will not and require a user to turn the battery back on. You can also install 
an external LVD device to stop power use at a higher SoC. 

As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate the 
customer. Too often, this does not happen.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, inverter 
idle current and anything else that might be left on. Extended periods of heavy 
clouds can reduce power generation to be less than system's internal losses. It 
seems like a pretty big gamble to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, 
that can not go below freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent 
freezing. 

If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with this 
technology. 
 

- Original Message -
From: offgridso...@sti.net "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
To:"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Cc:
Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank


Hello Daniel,

I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have looked
at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit.
The high temp is just as bad in your case here.

Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is not
an issue?

Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned space
is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living space is
perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) much. It
won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either.

Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The LG
is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all.
>
>
>
> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering
> changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before
> the
> next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium
> options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank
> into a system.
>
>
>
> The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied
> during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but
> attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers
> except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security
> system.
> As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes
> staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within
> reason.
> The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where
> the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely
> produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have
> significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights.
>
>
>
> Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing
> during
> storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was
> to
> provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system
> that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass
> heating
> pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed
> place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the
> battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load
> in
> the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I
> do
> not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining.
>
>
>
> In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the
> insulated
> enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries
> getting
> too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But
> with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less
> likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with
> this
> unconditioned setup?
>
>
>
> With Regards,
>
>
>
> Daniel Young,
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank; Danger of charging frozen

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Darryl,

With Li battery chemistry, a process called Lithium Plating occurs when 
charging a frozen cell. Intercalation into the lattice (how Li battery charges 
and discharges) is resisted and the current then causes a metallic deposition 
on the battery anode. Think of electroplating. Once this happens, it is 
instant, permanent damage to the cell. 

There are natural internal stresses in charging and discharging Li batteries. 
That’s why they swell. A danger of the plating process can occur later in 
battery life. The plating, in the form of dendrites, can puncture the separator 
film due to the natural pressures and swelling, causing a short circuit. Any 
short circuit in a Li battery is bad. Think Samsung phone. 

Our solution is never let a Li battery cell drop below 0°C. We build  battery 
packs in boxes and use heaters when required.  2 of the brands we carry have 
charge inhibit controls that prevent charge current when a cell is below 
freezing. 


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Feb 26, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Darryl Thayer <darylsol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Daniel and Larry,
I have a LI-FePO system, Simpliphy 10 kWh it is on its third winter, the 
batteries are unconditioned but in a box.  I am now concerned, as I worked as 
closely with Simpliphy as I could.  They did not caution me about the operation 
in the cold.  The batteries sit and have no load other than the charge 
controller.  This is similar to Daniel's system except he has some loads that 
run down the battery.  If the sun comes out the batteries will get a chance to 
charge.  The charge controller is a Morningstar Tristar 150V MPPT 60 A  (not 
using the roll-back feature)  I think I should pay a visit to this customer's 
cabin.   


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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Daniel,

Charging a Li battery below freezing can damage the battery very quickly. Low 
current, C.05 rate, can be used until cell temperature is above freezing but 
that can be hard to setup and control. You can store or discharge most Li 
batteries down to about -5°F. 

Unless you are using very high current, 1C or more, for long times, the battery 
temp. will rise very little. Same applies to charging, keeping the rate low 
will not cause a heat issue. 

Your best option is build a battery box, insulate and heat it. Very simple with 
DC silicone heaters. A well insulated box is the key to low power consumption. 
Make the box so you can vent for summer use.

Silicone heaters: 
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC6.A0.H0.XSilicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+.TRS5&_nkw=Silicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+&_sacat=0
 
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC6.A0.H0.XSilicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+.TRS5&_nkw=Silicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+&_sacat=0>

Temp controller: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-STC-1000-All-Purpose-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-With-Sensor-D/112145401355?hash=item1a1c63060b:m:mpDAMY9SK0sPRVsidEQ682w
 
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-STC-1000-All-Purpose-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-With-Sensor-D/112145401355?hash=item1a1c63060b:m:mpDAMY9SK0sPRVsidEQ682w>

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Feb 26, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Daniel Young <dyo...@dovetailsolar.com> wrote:

Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all.
 
The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering changing 
out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before the next winter. 
I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs 
now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank into a system.
 
The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied 
during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but 
attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers 
except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security system. As 
such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes staying 
there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM’s, within reason. The 
battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where the site 
has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely produce more 
heat during a charge than lithium’s, and they have significantly more thermal 
mass to ride through the really cold nights.
 
Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing during 
storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was to 
provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system that 
is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass heating pad like 
is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed place to lay 
down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would 
of course need to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. 
They array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it’s 
ability to compensate when the sun is shining.
 
In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the insulated 
enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries getting too 
hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But with the 
lower internal resistance of the lithium’s, maybe this is less likely to be an 
issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with this unconditioned setup?
 
With Regards,
 
Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Test data is important. If you check out most Li battery brands, they copy each 
other: “2000 cycles with 80% remaining.” Like Clara Peller said in 1984, “ 
Where’s the beef?”

One brand of Li battery that we sell, LiFeBlue, has published actual test data 
for their cells (Topband). At 1C rate and 100% DoD, they produced over 2800 
cycles and had 83% remaining capacity. Extrapolate to 8000 cycles and that 
would mean 48.5% remaining capacity if degradation remained linear.  However, 
we are in fantasy land here due to the unknown affects of battery aging on one 
hand and the fact that no one will use a battery like that on the other. 
Besides, in a decade or so, will Li-ion battery cost make lead batteries a 
relic?

IMO, lead is dead…or at least dying…slowly. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Feb 20, 2018, at 9:02 AM, Kirpal <solarwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Larryyes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!)  No I don't have 
the data showing that, nor have I seen it.  But the marketing has to be 
accurate right?!  We have installed a few systems with a few more on the books 
including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real world 
matches the lab testsI don't have a copy of their warranty but it is for 15 
years and does allow for some degradation of capacity,  70% remaining after 15 
years.  Pretty robust for a battery warranty!  From what I have seen they are a 
strong off grid option.  Could be one of the last battery banks some of our 
customers ever buy.  The visibility into cycle count and remaining capacity is 
refreshing after using various amp hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy 
over time.  I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the 
years ahead! 


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com <http://www.oregonsolarworks.com/>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Kirpal,

“...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge…” 
I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real cycle 
life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 cycles at 80% 
DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. Do you have any 
information about testing or a copy of their warranty?


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal <solarwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off grid 
and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters.  They are rated at 8000 
cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and can be 
monitored remotely.  The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are made by Sony.
The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good 
feedback from local installers. 
One more option for the tool bag.  
Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid state 
relay into the Radian.   So they are now providing some guidance on this as of 
just recently.  I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode when the grid 
does come back around. 



Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com <http://www.oregonsolarworks.com/>
541-299-0402

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray <r...@solarray.com 
<mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:
Greetings Wrenches;

We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will 
eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to operate 
reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What is everyone's 
experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked with the regular 
Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the Storedge is not 
a good off grid option.  What are the issues, and has anyone used the Storedge 
in longer term outages?

Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum inverters 
with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like Simpliphi and 
LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower cost and allow us to use more 
traditional off grid designs, but also have limited charge and discharge 
current.  In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have had to reduce the 
storage size in half compared to lead acid.  We feel this is justifiable 
considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its voltage stability, and 
its higher efficiency.

All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory.  We 
just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional in 5 to 8 
years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries.  We use HUP batteries for 
most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible because of their size 
and maintenance requirements.

Thanks,

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

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Re: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen?

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

jay,

My view: My cost is no ones business but mine. You either pay what I charge for 
materials and labor or go elsewhere. FYI, with that position I still have a 
continual 1-2 month waiting list of people waiting to pay for our services.

Being on the Mexico border, I’ve had a few developers contact me for large PV 
solar power systems for RV parks and small communities in Mexico. They want 
quotes and lots of info; lots of my time. A few years ago I decided to charge a 
large refundable consulting fee to discuss any details for systems like that. 
No takers. And, these projects never get done either as they were just 
fantasies to begin with.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Jan 23, 2018, at 11:48 AM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:


HI All,

I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice it as 
follows.  They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, but that 
doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, and it sure 
seems that could happen.

I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to get a 
bit of a reality check.  
As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t too 
common for me.


1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item)
2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept

Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big:  
16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc.

Thanks

jay

peltz power



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[RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Drake,

We have at least a dozen systems that failed early from lost capacity over the 
last 2 years with 2-4 year old battery banks. The AGM failures are all Lifeline 
battery made by Concorde.  

Lifeline and my distributor both told me I was “the only one” with failures. I 
dropped Lifeline battery after being a dealer for 16 years and many hundreds of 
systems installed. Historically we had seen 7-10 years average life from 
battery banks that we installed. One regular customer is at 12 years and still 
going. I have a sense of vindication now hearing from others about Concorde 
capacity issues.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





On Jan 18, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned a 
couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years old and 
have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. Hopefully 
Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has anyone else had 
problems with Concorde?


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are loosing 
capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally high failures from 
2 brands. 

Larry

On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay  wrote:

Can you tell us:

Battery make,model and size?

Jay
Peltz power. 

On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young > wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>  
> I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. The 
> system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery bank is 
> loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is triggering 
> more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the generator 
> triggering if possible.
>  
> The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which 
> further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security 
> system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows 
> Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is 
> pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and 
> security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC.
>  
> I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by 
> taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank 
> (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent 
> quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter losses and 
> the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be 
> closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take 
> the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare 
> losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard 
> wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply.
>  
> Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated.
>  
> With Regards,
>  
> Daniel Young, 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
> Dovetail Solar and Wind
>  
> __
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tariff

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

We normally keep about 6-8 brands/types of PV solar modules in stock. I tried 
to purchase from AEE last week but they have a policy that required us to buy 
other grid tie BOS components in order to purchase modules. They mentioned the 
“tariff shortage” Our work is all battery based systems so I passed.

Another distributor told me I should order now if I want to get in on their 
next container delivery. I just ordered a couple pallets (Panasonic) from 
another vendor that has stock and no special policy. 

So, I too would like to know if a shortage is looming. Anyone?

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Nov 6, 2017, at 4:05 AM, gary easton <g...@arp-solar.com> wrote:

Is anyone stocking up on modules before the 15th when  the first tariff
gets signed?


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Re: [RE-wrenches] System Monitor for HV Off Grid System? JLD 404

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Heres a good video of the JLD 404 features and use. https://youtu.be/TJcToZoVzbw




On Oct 20, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Sindelar Solar <al...@sindelarsolar.com> wrote:

Larry,

Thank you for the referral to this item. Unless I'm missing something:

- it lacks the ability to provide % of full;

- it lacks a charge efficiency factor, and can thus develop an accumulated 
error;

- the accumulated error can be manually cleared but not automatically;

- it requires a separate 9-30VDC power supply, most likely a wall wart AC power 
supply;

- it looks as though it would work with a 100A/50mV shunt, but I'm not sure.

Am I correct about these?

Allan

On 10/20/2017 3:58 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
> Look at the JLD 404. 500Vdc, 10kA
> see http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=162
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> On Oct 20, 2017, at 2:48 PM, Sindelar Solar <al...@sindelarsolar.com> wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
> I have an upcoming remote residential off grid upgrade job that uses one of 
> the rare Michigan Energy Works inverter/charger/controller packages, this one 
> from 1997, which the homeowner wants to continue using. The package uses a 
> 120 volt nominal array (10 x BP90 in series) and a 144V nominal battery bank. 
> I'm adding array (6 x 60-cell generic), replacing batteries (FLA with VRLA), 
> and updating disconnects and overcurrent protection. Can anyone suggest a 
> user-friendly system monitor that will work with this system voltage, 
> something akin to a TriMetric 2020 or 2030? I can't think of one that will 
> work with a system voltage this high. Mostly I'd like the percentage function 
> for a nontechnical homeowner.
> 
> Thank you, Allan
-- 

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] System Monitor for HV Off Grid System?

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Right, it lacks many features. Old school method: tape a piece of paper next to 
the meter showing AH removed = xx % full. I think any shunt up to 1000 amps can 
be used. It can be programmed for different styles.

It also has two programmable relays to start a generator or notify the user to 
charge or whatever. For under $90 it has its place and covers the voltage range 
you need.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





On Oct 20, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Sindelar Solar <al...@sindelarsolar.com> wrote:

Larry,

Thank you for the referral to this item. Unless I'm missing something:

- it lacks the ability to provide % of full;

- it lacks a charge efficiency factor, and can thus develop an accumulated 
error;

- the accumulated error can be manually cleared but not automatically;

- it requires a separate 9-30VDC power supply, most likely a wall wart AC power 
supply;

- it looks as though it would work with a 100A/50mV shunt, but I'm not sure.

Am I correct about these?

Allan

On 10/20/2017 3:58 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
> Look at the JLD 404. 500Vdc, 10kA
> see http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=162
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> On Oct 20, 2017, at 2:48 PM, Sindelar Solar <al...@sindelarsolar.com> wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
> I have an upcoming remote residential off grid upgrade job that uses one of 
> the rare Michigan Energy Works inverter/charger/controller packages, this one 
> from 1997, which the homeowner wants to continue using. The package uses a 
> 120 volt nominal array (10 x BP90 in series) and a 144V nominal battery bank. 
> I'm adding array (6 x 60-cell generic), replacing batteries (FLA with VRLA), 
> and updating disconnects and overcurrent protection. Can anyone suggest a 
> user-friendly system monitor that will work with this system voltage, 
> something akin to a TriMetric 2020 or 2030? I can't think of one that will 
> work with a system voltage this high. Mostly I'd like the percentage function 
> for a nontechnical homeowner.
> 
> Thank you, Allan
-- 

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] System Monitor for HV Off Grid System?

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Look at the JLD 404. 500Vdc, 10kA

see http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=162


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Oct 20, 2017, at 2:48 PM, Sindelar Solar <al...@sindelarsolar.com> wrote:

Wrenches,
I have an upcoming remote residential off grid upgrade job that uses one of the 
rare Michigan Energy Works inverter/charger/controller packages, this one from 
1997, which the homeowner wants to continue using. The package uses a 120 volt 
nominal array (10 x BP90 in series) and a 144V nominal battery bank. I'm adding 
array (6 x 60-cell generic), replacing batteries (FLA with VRLA), and updating 
disconnects and overcurrent protection. Can anyone suggest a user-friendly 
system monitor that will work with this system voltage, something akin to a 
TriMetric 2020 or 2030? I can't think of one that will work with a system 
voltage this high. Mostly I'd like the percentage function for a nontechnical 
homeowner.

Thank you, Allan
-- 

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Form my vantage point….

Whether UL is involved in the re-purposing of Lithium Ion batteries or not, 
this will not reach to the DIY market for used batteries. With all the interest 
in saving money and the growing availability of wrecked EV's with good battery 
packs, this DIY battery issue is seeing explosive growth (pun intended). 
Really, I get calls weekly for advice. 

Just today I had a call from someone buying a wrecked Chevy Volt 18kWh battery 
pack. He said a “guy” takes these apart and makes 48 packs for people. That’s 
all he knew. He wanted us to build a PV solar charging system and connect to 
his cheap Li-ion battery. I was nice. NO WAY would I touch it.

People sometimes handle rattlesnakes. No matter how skilled you are, you might 
still get bit. Putting used lithium batteries in service is risky. Of course 
you can learn all about batteries and the risks and mitigate much it, but when 
will you KNOW  100% that a used battery is safe? Damage can happen to a Li 
battery that you can’t tell by testing. It seems to be normal but can burst 
into flames without any external action on it. This can happen to a damaged 
cell just sitting on a shelf.

You can find stories of people skilled with li-ion batteries that have had 
fires. All Li cells are Federally regulated by 49 CFR. Even though that 
regulation spells out sever penalties, thousands of batteries are being 
illegally shipped every day. I know this.

Here’s something for people to think about from the FAA: For “aggravated” 
hazmat violations—those that result in death, serious illness, severe injury or 
substantial destruction of property—the civil penalty to $182,877 per day, per 
violation. Just offering a Li-ion battery for shipment without the proper 
papers is a $20,000 fine per shipment.  How many eBay sellers know this?

Re-purposing - yes, with good understanding and extreme caution in the 
application.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:05 PM, Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Here is feedback on the second life batteries from Morgan Hager, member of the 
group who will be working on the project. I sent her the information provided 
by the list, and asked for more information. Below is her reply.

*
Morgan Hager <8welloiledmachi...@gmail.com>

Thanks for the battery feed back.  In anticipation of used EV batteries coming 
to the market in mass, UL has developed specifications for second life 
batteries.  I am not sure if they are complete yet, the goal was this year.  
This is where I want to start before building.  There are also already 
commercial products available using repurposed 18650's so there must be some 
kind of benchmark or reference.  More research needed.

Also:

Here's a good article about this. Not the standards themselves however:

<https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2016/08/24/ul-working-to-ensure-used-ev-batteries-safely-re-purposed/?c=0=trending#383524bf1365>https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2016/08/24/ul-working-to-ensure-used-ev-batteries-safely-re-purposed/?c=0=trending#383524bf1365

One problem I see is that these standards are for a stationary application and 
we want to build a vehicle pack. Still seems a good place to start.

***

It looks like this isn't just a crazy way to blow ourselves up, but a 
technology that is in the wings.
any feedback would be welcome.

Cheers,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328



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Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battereis

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Darryl,

Quote "You must be careful of LI because if you are floating, the voltage drops 
so little your CC will not
necessarily pick-up.”

We have sold hundreds of Li-ion batteries over the last 4 years. No one has had 
a problem with a PV solar charge controller or battery charger providing 
current when a load is applied. If the battery voltage is at equilibrium with 
the charger, float mode and current basically zero, the slightest load will be 
directed to the charge source as it attempts to maintain voltage.

Hey Jay,

We sell Relion with cylindrical cells and prismatic cells from Elite Power 
Solutions (GBS) and LiFeBlue Battery. We have never had a cell failure with any 
battery yet so as for cell quality, all brands are working well. The problems 
we have had are always with the EMS systems.

My thoughts comparing the two battery types are one type has fewer points of 
failure. In a 100AH 12 volt pack using cylindrical cells, you have many dozens 
of batteries and connections compared to 4 to 16 prismatic cells. I know Tesla 
cars have worked extremely well with 7000+ cylindrical cells but he has spent 
millions making it work. In the Li battery market we are involved with, I’m not 
so sure the manufacturers have provided the same level of QC. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Oct 7, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Darryl Thayer <darylsol...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have only limited experience with Lithium batteries.  But in that
experience, a module of small cylindrical cells will have a higher power,
faster charge, and discharge.  For the same chemistry, the prism cells will
have a little higher energy density.  For long cycle life and slow aging,
the differences in battery additives meaning the manufacturer are
paramount.  In using Li-ion there are a few tricks.  The voltage is very
stable, so you can not use voltage for the state of charge. For LA you will
float 13.4 forever, then when you draw power, the voltage drops.  even at
low draw, the voltage drops to the 12.6 range.  You must be careful of LI
because if you are floating, the voltage drops so little your CC will not
necessarily pick-up.  Some manufacturers give you instruction via mod bus
or some form of communication. So ask your CC supplier and your battery
people good luck some do not even understand their own equipment.

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:16 AM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To follow along with the lithium questions,
> 
> I’m wondering what thoughts/information people have on prismatic vs
> cylindrical lithium family batteries?
> 
> My questions are quality,cycle life, pros/cons,recycling?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> jay

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

If you are going to play without knowledge, never have these battery cells near 
anything you are not willing to loose to fire. Worst case is you burn something 
that you did not intend to. Might be something cheap or your home and all your 
possessions or your eyes and skin. If that happens, don’t blame the battery. 

Larry

On Oct 5, 2017, at 12:44 PM, Drake  wrote:

Those are great arc-flash photos. Are we really getting into a serious risk of 
this sort of situation with a Li-ion battery? What really happens in a 
worst-case-scenario situation with them? How many people have blown themselves 
up to date? :-)

Thanks,

Drake


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Drake,

What chemistry of li-ion batteries are you talking about? Some, like LiFePO4, 
are far less prone to thermal runaway as they have superior thermal 
characteristics. Other chemistries should be avoided unless you have 
significant cell level monitoring and control. 

As with all batteries, when any one cell in series with other cells becomes 
fully intercalated (think of a lead acid cell in saturation), that cell voltage 
will rise above the others that are still absorbing current. With lead 
batteries this means off gassing and heat buildup of that cell. With Li-ion 
cells, especially at high charge rates, this can produce a fast temperature 
buildup. Some Li cells have pressure valves built in, much like valve regulated 
lead batteries do. High temperature will cause pressure from boiling the 
electrolyte. The vent opens to release pressure and lower the internal 
temperature, hopefully. This stopgap greatly improves safety but may not be 
sufficient to prevent thermal runaway. 

If all cells are matched for capacity and balanced, a good practice is to under 
charge them. There is no reason ever to fully charge a lithium battery and 
stopping short is a good practice for any Li chemistry. But this alone is not 
enough. If you want to be more safe, monitor each cell voltage AND temperature 
and turn off charging before any 1 cell exceeds the specification for that 
battery type. This is done with a BMS. Our systems all have BMS controls which 
I believe makes Li-ion batteries safer than lead acid. In lead acid battery 
systems I have seen thermal run away and several explosions. 

Beware: Notice above I said “more safe”. There are conditions that can make a 
Li cell very dangerous, especially with a used battery, that you can’t tell 
from any non-destructive testing method. Study the formation of dendrites. 

This subject is too vast to discuss in an email, so I recommend that you study 
much before you proceed. Many others have been where you are now and have paid 
a very high price for assumed understanding. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(4+ years studying, designing and installing Li-ion energy storage systems)


On Oct 5, 2017, at 6:45 AM, Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I've been contacted by a group who will be taking apart lithium ion battery 
packs that have been retired, finding the bad cells and recombining the 
remainder, then putting them in larger configurations for use in PV systems and 
electric vehicles.

How can thermal runaway be avoided? Is there any information that could be of 
use in making these systems safe and effective?

Thanks,

Drake






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Elithion BMS

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Right… I would not recommend this “home-brew” product for any client. If you 
are a DIY person and are sure you understand the risks of hacking a Tesla 
battery system, that is a jewel of a controller. However, when things go wrong 
because you were lazy, cheap or stupid, it can be bad…. very bad.

Larry



On Aug 25, 2017, at 9:19 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <offgridso...@sti.net> 
wrote:

That was nice Larry,
I just can't imagine that in a clients offgrid home. Homebrew is for beer
offgrid:) Friday!!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060




Dave Starlight Solar Power SystemsDave
> Hi Jay,
> 
> No, but if your working with Tesla battery modules have you seen the
> battery control interface that Jack Rickard built? It uses the Tesla EMS
> and can monitor up to 62 Tesla battery modules. It’s programmable and
> has output contacts for PV solar controllers and other devices.
> See http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=modulecontroller
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> On Aug 24, 2017, at 8:28 AM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know anything about Elithion BMS systems?
> 
> Or had experience with them?
> 
> Would be used for control on tesla salvage batteries, to control
> upper/lower voltage safety relays.
> 
> thanks in advance,
> 
> jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
> 


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Elithion BMS

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Jay,

No, but if your working with Tesla battery modules have you seen the battery 
control interface that Jack Rickard built? It uses the Tesla EMS and can 
monitor up to 62 Tesla battery modules. It’s programmable and has output 
contacts for PV solar controllers and other devices.
See http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=modulecontroller

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems 


On Aug 24, 2017, at 8:28 AM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does anyone know anything about Elithion BMS systems?

Or had experience with them?

Would be used for control on tesla salvage batteries, to control upper/lower 
voltage safety relays.

thanks in advance,

jay

peltz power





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Re: [RE-wrenches] "DC current Injection": Whazzat?

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Help Mick,

With the Magnum AC coupled to the SE inverter, I suggest it’s an issue with 
Magnum power quality (reactance) with the blender controls/motor and the 
resulting AC waveform that is feeding the SE inverter. I have seen this before 
with Magnum Energy. Can you look at the waveform or PQ while starting the 
blender?

A simple solution (but perhaps a hard sell) is the customer acknowledges that 
this rare event will happen and ignore it for the 5 minutes it takes to restart 
the inverter. Battery power should be sufficient. Compare that to the cost of 
“fixing” this issue.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Aug 17, 2017, at 6:51 AM, Mick Abraham <m...@abrahamsolar.com> wrote:

Hi, Wrenchies~ 

My client has an AC coupled battery based setup. The batteries are good ol' 
lead floodies in pretty good health, the battery based inverter is Magnum 
MS4448PAE, & the string inverter is SolarEdge. There's also a Magnum ACLD "AC 
Load Diversion" control to regulate battery state of charge when there's no 
grid power. 

When there's no grid power & the system is on it's own, the SE inverter 
sometimes throws an error code 36 "DC current injection". This happens when the 
mongo blender is operated (Vitamix brand, older model) & again in a >no public 
power grid< situation. The error causes the synchronizing string inverter to 
de-couple from the Magnum then the standard five minute time-out ensues before 
a re-couple.

I think DC current injection is when the transformer-less SE inverter pumps a 
blip of DC into the grid--or micro-grid when there's no grid power--and I guess 
DC injection is IEEE verboten because it compromises power quality/power 
purity. Can the experts confirm if this is correct understanding, explain how 
DC can show up on the AC, and offer suggestions other than a replacement 
blender?

Thanks as always. The Wrench List is the Bomb!

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com <http://www.abrahamsolar.com/>

Landline: 970-731-4675
Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SimpliPhi Power PHI3.4 Smart -Tech Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Jay,

After LVD, with Relion, LiFeBlue and the new Elite PS ABC-CPU, the BMS will 
keep the battery off until you begin to charge. The battery will automatically 
come back online. 

Larry


On Aug 10, 2017, at 7:43 AM, Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Dave,  

This is wonderful info. 
And it leads into the what happens when it reaches LVD?
Given that it is using almost 10% per day of battery capacity for the BMS, what 
happens when the charging source for whatever reason shuts down. ( CC dies 
while people are gone for a few days for one example)
The BMS turns off the loads, but what turns off the BMS and how do you turn it 
back on when it happens?

Thx

Jay
Peltz power



> On Aug 9, 2017, at 6:21 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
> <offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
> 
> FYI, the LG Chem RESU10 consumes about 40 watts or less with the XW+ main
> breaker off.
> 
> 
> 
>> Hi Jay and Dave,
>> 
>> LiFeBlue battery has a wireless Bluetooth monitor that is connected to the
>> BMS in each battery. SoC, current, cycle life, voltage, health, battery
>> faults and more is provided on the free IOS or Android App. Up to 62kWh at
>> 48 volts available today.
>> 
>> http://www.lifebluebattery.com/the-smartest-lithium-battery/index.html
>> 
>> Larry
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes true. I haven't found the perfect off grid lithium battery.  But until
>> the prices come down, I become a better sales person, or I get rich
>> clients not a big problem for me.
>> You will have to use external % meter, but been doing that for long time.
>> 
>> Sure good comm would be better, however one of the questions no one seems
>> to have an answer for is energy consumption for the BMS, any BMS.
>> 
>> On a different note, how does the LG or PW deal with dark start?  If it
>> shuts down due to low voltage, how do you get it started again?
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> <offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jay,
>>> 
>>> Without battery BMS data for Soc how does one know? I assume you need an
>>> external shunt and an energy monitor? Any guidance from the
>>> manufacturer?
>>> 
>>> One of the nice things about the LG resu 10 is the data is all there and
>>> it stays very accurate even on a week with never finishing charge to
>>> 100%.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>>> text 209 813 0060
>> 
>> 
> 
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Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





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Re: [RE-wrenches] SimpliPhi Power PHI3.4 Smart -Tech Batteries and LifeBlue

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Dave,

I looked at them a couple years ago and tried to find out who makes their 
cells, no luck. Compare with LiFeBlue, for $100 more retail you get a Bluetooth 
battery monitor in each battery that communicates with the internal BMS and a 
10 year Warrantee. I would like to stress how important the Bluetooth is. If 
Battle Born or any other in similar battery shuts off, how will you or your 
customer know why this happened or what to do about it? LiFeBlue will display 
the fault on the System Info page of the App. (see attachment)

LiFeBlue has dealer pricing, not sure if Battle Born does. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Aug 10, 2017, at 9:41 AM, Glenn Burt <glenn.b...@glbcc.com> wrote:

Has anyone experience with Battle Born lithium batteries? Their price point is 
better than others we have looked at.
From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
Sent: ‎8/‎7/‎2017 14:39
To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SimpliPhi Power PHI3.4 Smart -Tech Batteries and 
LifeBlue

Chris,

I am impressed with a first look at Lifeblue. They seem much easier to
integrate that Simpliphi with their larger capacity and Soc data out
wireless!!!  To me this is a huge feature for my clients and myself.

On first look I will say I have been testing the LG RESU10 since last
year. To me they are the benchmark for a couple reasons. LG Chem is a 20
billion dollar company with (unlike Tesla) over 20 years of profitability.
So I feel they will be there.

The second is how the BMS calculates and continuously calibrates the Soc.
This is very different to me than any battery monitor I have used. This
becomes apparent when one goes for a week or more without getting to 100%
Soc. The LG is extremely accurate. The protection on the LG is as good as
I can think of with contactor, overcurrent protection from both a
breaker/Disco and a class T fuse. I have tested them in a DC input short
(failed DC Inverter input). It works!

So, at this time I would say the Lifeblue needs to prove itself and I
would be happy to keep an eye on all the early adapters :)

Schneider did release the Bridge for LG Chem BTW, and Outback has delayed
the Skybox until 2018 which is being tested with LG Chem also.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Have you tried them, are they reliable?
>
> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <
> la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jay and Dave,
>>
>> LiFeBlue battery has a wireless Bluetooth monitor that is connected to
>> the
>> BMS in each battery. SoC, current, cycle life, voltage, health, battery
>> faults and more is provided on the free IOS or Android App. Up to 62kWh
>> at
>> 48 volts available today.
>>
>> http://www.lifebluebattery.com/the-smartest-lithium-battery/index.html
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes true. I haven't found the perfect off grid lithium battery.  But
>> until
>> the prices come down, I become a better sales person, or I get rich
>> clients
>> not a big problem for me.
>> You will have to use external % meter, but been doing that for long
>> time.
>>
>> Sure good comm would be better, however one of the questions no one
>> seems
>> to have an answer for is energy consumption for the BMS, any BMS.
>>
>> On a different note, how does the LG or PW deal with dark start?  If it
>> shuts down due to low voltage, how do you get it started again?
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 4, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
>> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Jay,
>> >
>> > Without battery BMS data for Soc how does one know? I assume you need
>> an
>> > external shunt and an energy monitor? Any guidance from the
>> manufacturer?
>> >
>> > One of the nice things about the LG resu 10 is the data is all there
>> and
>> > it stays very accurate even on a week with never finishing charge to
>> > 100%.
>> >
>> >
>> > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> > "we go where powerlines don't"
>> > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> > e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> > text 209 813 0060
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SimpliPhi Power PHI3.4 Smart -Tech Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Jay and Dave,

LiFeBlue battery has a wireless Bluetooth monitor that is connected to the BMS 
in each battery. SoC, current, cycle life, voltage, health, battery faults and 
more is provided on the free IOS or Android App. Up to 62kWh at 48 volts 
available today.

http://www.lifebluebattery.com/the-smartest-lithium-battery/index.html

Larry


On Aug 4, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Jay  wrote:

Yes true. I haven't found the perfect off grid lithium battery.  But until the 
prices come down, I become a better sales person, or I get rich clients not a 
big problem for me. 
You will have to use external % meter, but been doing that for long time. 

Sure good comm would be better, however one of the questions no one seems to 
have an answer for is energy consumption for the BMS, any BMS.  

On a different note, how does the LG or PW deal with dark start?  If it shuts 
down due to low voltage, how do you get it started again?

Jay






> On Aug 4, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> Jay,
> 
> Without battery BMS data for Soc how does one know? I assume you need an
> external shunt and an energy monitor? Any guidance from the manufacturer?
> 
> One of the nice things about the LG resu 10 is the data is all there and
> it stays very accurate even on a week with never finishing charge to
> 100%.
> 
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Refrigeration

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hey Drake,

Because of the very low cost of producing power by PV solar, I always recommend 
a standard, high efficiency refrigerator. It doesn’t makes sense to by 
speciality refrigerators that cost 2-4 times times the price of ‘off the shelf” 
brands. Many brands have models that use about 1 kWh per day. That means you 
can make the power it takes to operate it for under $500.  

Look here at kWh/Year: 
https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-refrigerators 

Larry



On Jun 27, 2017, at 7:25 AM, Drake  wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

What is your preferred refrigerator for off  grid installations? We are looking 
for a medium sized, commercially available unit that won't break the bank. Any 
suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Drake 


 <>Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/  




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar over a Pool

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

85°….I wish…it’s 114° here right now. Unshaded pools are unusable for many 
summer months, even at night, without a refrigeration system. But, in the 
winter, they need solar gain to reduce heating bills. Not a good plan for a 
permanent cover.

Larry


On Jun 26, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
 wrote:


Tom,

Down here a little further south in Florida, many of our clients might actually 
find that to be a benefit in the summer! Pools get bathwater hot here and 
nocturnal solar cooling is a hopeless proposition when it's 85F ambient and 95% 
humidity at night.

That said - I totally agree. Bad idea.

Jason Szumlanski

​​
FL State Certified Contractor License: CVC56956

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:42 AM, Tom Lane > wrote:
Solar over a pool of any type electric or solar pool collectors , IS A BAD IDEA 
, as it will significantly drop the length of the swimming season as the pool 
will typically be between 6 to 10 F minimum colder all year . A screen cage 
over a pool typically drops the temperature a minimum of 5 to 10 F depending on 
how wide the weave of the screen AND how clean you keep the screen , a totally 
closed enclosure also has to deal with condensation. GatorTom

Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Daunting, an excellent description. Means intimidating, formidable, 
disconcerting, unnerving, unsettling, dismaying; discouraging, disheartening, 
and so on. I had to become Hazmat Certified to ship lithium ion batteries….so, 
yes to all the synonyms.

49 CFR 173 regulates shipment and transport of batteries. They are Class 8 
dangerous goods. Here’s some info about you transporting. 

"When packaged in accordance with 49 CFR 173.159 and transported by highway or 
rail, lead acid batteries are not subject to any other DOT requirements if all 
of the following conditions are met:

• There are no other hazardous materials in the same vehicle.
• The batteries are loaded or braced to prevent damage and short 
circuits.
• Any other material loaded in the vehicle must be blocked, braced, or 
otherwise secured to prevent contact with or damage to the batteries.
• The vehicle carries material offered only by the battery shipper.
(close quote)

I have not studied it but I think there is some exclusions for batteries being 
transported for recycling. See” 
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=b79008b14fb36fd528cc84f87ed9af4e=true=pt40.27.266=div5#sp40.29.266.g
 subpart G

Have fun.
Larry




On May 22, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Ray  wrote:

HI All;

I was wondering if anyone had run into to trouble or special requirements or 
regulations when hauling new or dead lead acid batteries to and from job sites. 
 Do we need to be DOT approved/ registered?  This seems like a special case, 
since regular shipping companies do not deliver to these remote areas.

The regulations etc are amazingly daunting.  In the past, I've considered it a 
case of a contractor transporting building materials to the job site. We're not 
a carrier, that delivers packages for others for a living.   We have rented a 
truck with a DOT# when we need something over the 10,000 lb gross vehicle 
limit, like a 1 ton truck.  I'm hoping that would be adequate.

Thanks in advance for your advice,

-- 
R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
303 505-8760

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[RE-wrenches] Outback VFXR3648 failures

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Battery Wrenches,

We designed a mobile power system with 6 Outback VFXR3648 inverters stacked for 
240 split phase. The battery system is a 20kWh lithium ion. So far, 2 FET 
boards have failed and the customer called today with another failure. Outback 
said they had an early problem with these. I want to know if anyone else is 
having issues with these and is the problem really fixed before I quote another 
one.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Transfer switch

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Drake,

We have been using Gigavac for high current DC switching a few years now. They 
also switch high voltage DC. Very reliable. See 
http://www.gigavac.com/catalog/power-products

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Apr 12, 2017, at 8:45 AM, Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a DC transfer switch or relay that is rated for 12 A at 300 
VDC?

Thanks,

Drake 

 
 <>Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/

 <http://athens-electric.com/>


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Re: [RE-wrenches] High End battery

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I want to 2nd David’s recommendation for Fullriver. 6 years and many pallet 
loads sold, only one failure covered by warranty. 7 year warranty when used in 
RE systems. Best AGM battery we have ever sold.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Mar 27, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Dave Palumbo <palumbo1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mac,
I have had good success using Full River AGM's in difficult situations. One 
system near the Canadian border here in Vermont had no homeowner care for two 
months in the winter. PV array became covered with snow and they had left their 
inverter on to run a refrigerator. Of course the batteries became discharged 
and they were in temperatures well below freezing. I was brought in to assess 
and service the situation. I found these 6v 250AH AGM's with about 4 volts 
each. I assumed they were ruined.
Nope. I brought them back to my shop and warmed them up, charged them and then 
did a load test and they all tested out at or above manufacturer specs. They 
have been working well for another three years now.
 
David Palumbo 
Independent Power LLC
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
802-371-8678 cell
802-888-4917 home
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Tump,

If you recall, this is EXACTLY what I was calling into question on this list 
back on November 11th, 2014 and again on Jan 29th, 2016. It looks like you have 
confirmed my suspicion. The battery can not possible provide the rated 
capacity. I hope others that have tested these batteries will also confirm this 
as it could be a very expensive mistake.

Here’s my Jan 29th post:

"Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way 
outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this 
technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the 
capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD.

And this:
The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 
volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage 
sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. 
Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use 
the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. 

I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the 
capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, 
why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec 
sheet does not match the first chart I posted."



Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





On Mar 8, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Tump <t...@swnl.net> wrote:

I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US  w/ 20 stack on one and another 
site w/ the Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp hour of 
storage  sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the 
batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I 
have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK but one gets 
better performance from  charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ 
42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are 
defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the 
SMA product, adds additional cost due to the required  BM200 AND  the Sunny 
Island Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which 
comes pre wired. (Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed).  
It is quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the 
BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and 
help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected to the internet. This install 
also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI which when  was 
delivered, the firmware  would only load into the master then shut down the 
system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then 
reconfigure for 2 phase. 
I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be 
my loads…. NOT. 
I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and require 
quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. And there is 
definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI.
My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure 
that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC coupling” in 
this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These have buss 
bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake 
locations. AND are totally recyclable.
Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, 
contact me off line.  TUMP 
  
> On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld <findso...@herzfeld.org 
> <mailto:findso...@herzfeld.org>> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island?  Space is not an issue for 
> this client.
> 
> Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation 
> Professional #IREC 10037
> California Solar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
> Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
> 
> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034
> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
> 
> Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider
> 
> 
> On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, 
> he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a 
> low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our 
> other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, 
> suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.
> 
> 
> On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake&

Re: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

The idea is to use an inverter manually as a current dump to the grid from the 
EV battery as opposed to just driving around to discharge the battery. No 
automation or communication required. This is not for a permanent connection. 
So they will connect, discharge, then disconnect when done.

If the inverter regulates output based on its power capability, e.g. a 5kW 
inverter limits power to 5kW (as I’ve been told in on off-list response), then 
it really should not matter what the MPP circuits are doing. 

Mac Lewis,
Very nice offer. I’ll let them know.

Thanks everyone.

Larry




On Feb 23, 2017, at 4:37 PM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote:

Hi Larry,
 
I have no idea what would happen if you connected a DC high voltage (340 v) 
battery source to a PV inverter. I guess my point is that it isn’t designed for 
it and likely wouldn’t work. Maybe it would? I have to think that both the 
inverter and the EV would have some sort of logic or circuitry to prevent the 
inverter from just pulling juice from the battery. Regardless, the inverter 
wouldn’t have the controls setup to decide when to start inverting and when to 
stop. 
 
Technically, you might be right though – the MPPT circuit on the inverter might 
just sweep and invert. 
 
August
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Starlight 
Solar Power Systems
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery
 
Hello August,
 
Help me understand your point. If the MPPT circuit is sweeping, it will see the 
same voltage everywhere. Would it not just continue sweeping because it can’t 
lock on? Or perhaps it times out? As long as it is producing power during that 
process, won’t it be fine? 
 
Thanks to all for the responses. 
 
Larry
 
 
 
On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:04 PM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com 
<mailto:aug...@luminalt.com>> wrote:
 
Larry –
 
My immediate thought is that you would need a listed grid tied inverter 
designed for the purpose of connecting to this type of battery and inverting to 
the grid. A regular PV inverter won’t cut it since it is designed to MPT PV 
modules. 
 
The SolarEdge StorEdge product sounds like the closest thing on the market that 
might be close to working. But, once again, it needs to be setup to work with 
your particular battery. I think StorEdge is planning on working with Tesla and 
LG Chem RESU batteries in the 350 to 400 v range. 
 
August
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Starlight 
Solar Power Systems
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery
 
Hello Wrenches,
 
Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They 
have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid 
tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to 
discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. 
 
My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is 
how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available 
that can do the job?
 
Any input is appreciated. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
 
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello August,

Help me understand your point. If the MPPT circuit is sweeping, it will see the 
same voltage everywhere. Would it not just continue sweeping because it can’t 
lock on? Or perhaps it times out? As long as it is producing power during that 
process, won’t it be fine? 

Thanks to all for the responses. 

Larry




On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:04 PM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote:

Larry –
 
My immediate thought is that you would need a listed grid tied inverter 
designed for the purpose of connecting to this type of battery and inverting to 
the grid. A regular PV inverter won’t cut it since it is designed to MPT PV 
modules. 
 
The SolarEdge StorEdge product sounds like the closest thing on the market that 
might be close to working. But, once again, it needs to be setup to work with 
your particular battery. I think StorEdge is planning on working with Tesla and 
LG Chem RESU batteries in the 350 to 400 v range. 
 
August
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Starlight 
Solar Power Systems
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery
 
Hello Wrenches,
 
Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They 
have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid 
tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to 
discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. 
 
My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is 
how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available 
that can do the job?
 
Any input is appreciated. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
 
 
 
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[RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Wrenches,

Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They 
have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid 
tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to 
discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. 

My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is 
how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available 
that can do the job?

Any input is appreciated. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




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[RE-wrenches] Using same PV array for water pump, battery charging

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Wrenches,

A customer has 3250 Watt PV array @ 139Voc. The PV controller is Magnum PT100. 
He wants to install a Grundfos SQFlex pump and be able to switch the DC from 
the PV controller to run the pump directly. He would like to switch midday 
after the battery (48V) is at a high SoC.

I’m looking for a switching arrangement to do this without arcing since it will 
be used a few times each week. Any have a recommendation? 

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery systems

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Chris,

I am in our 3rd year of designing and selling Lithium Iron Manganese Phosphate 
(LFMP) battery systems for our mobile, boat and off grid customers. There is no 
mystery to using Lithium Iron type batteries with most modern 
inverter/chargers, although some manufacturers disagree. Our LFMP batteries 
work with any charger that has programmable absorb and float voltage and has 
adjustable absorb timers down to 5 minutes. Temperature compensation is not 
used. At my Montana home, I have a the Outback GS8048 for powering my shop 
building, home office and to backup loads in the house.

I have looked at many other batteries being marketed but none of the EMS 
systems or designs have the features and protection that I deem necessary. Too 
much to write about here but buyer do your research. A customer will not be 
happy if their battery often shuts down.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Oct 14, 2016, at 9:42 AM, Chris Mason <cometenergysyst...@gmail.com 
<mailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm curious to see if anyone is finding Lithium battery systems available that 
will be suitable for an Outback Radian based system. Let me know what is out 
there please.

-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com/>
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps.

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

One other advantage, recombination caps wear out. We have had Water Miser caps 
returned (during upgrade to AGM’s) that are over 10 years old. By washing in 
baking soda and water, thoroughly rinsing, they continue working. Should last 
decades.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Oct 13, 2016, at 5:17 PM, Steve Higgins <st...@surrette.com> wrote:

Correction... 

Watermiser caps are plastic balls, not palladium balls...   I've never cut one 
open, maybe something I should do someday. 

Thanks Larry! 






 <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/>Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447 e st...@surrette.com <mailto:st...@surrette.com>
  
<http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery> <http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery>  
<> <http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery>  <> 
<https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery>  <> 
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering> <> 
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery> 
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the 
addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. 
Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any 
action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this 
email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message 
and all copies.

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Steve Higgins <st...@surrette.com 
<mailto:st...@surrette.com>> wrote:
Wrenches... 

Recombination Caps typically use a palladium plate or balls to help the 
recombination process...  The Hydrogen and Oxygen in gas for pass by the 
palladium. The Hydrogen and Oxygen attaches to the palladium and  it rejoins 
the gasses into a liquid form.  

The problem with this process is it can build up quite a bit of heat.  The nice 
thing about the water-miser caps is it's made up of many palladium marbles, 
instead of a disk. There are some recombination caps that when you are 
charging at higher voltage, or EQ'ing they will heat up tremendously and will 
melt to the tops of the batteries. This forces you to remove the caps during 
heavy charging, or equalizing as melting caps are not a good thing, and whats 
the point of having these if you can't have them on the battery? 

This is why we switched to the water-misers, they don't get as hot and are made 
of materials that can absorb a bit more heat and you don't have to remove them 
when charging. 

If you need help finding these, let me know off list and I'll work with a 
distributor near you to get them. 

 




 <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/> <http://www.rollsbattery.com/> 
<http://www.rollsbattery.com/>Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020 <tel:%2B1.902.597.4020> m +1.206.790.5840 
<tel:%2B1.206.790.5840>
f +1.902.597.8447 <tel:%2B1.902.597.8447> e st...@surrette.com 
<mailto:st...@surrette.com>
  
<http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery> <http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery>  
<> <http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery>  <> 
<https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery>  <> 
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering> <> 
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery> 
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the 
addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. 
Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any 
action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this 
email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message 
and all copies.

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
<la...@starlightsolar.com <mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:
Battery Wrenches,

The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low absorb 
voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge voltage for 
many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of gasses. These 
and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the caps should be 
remove

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps.

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Steve,

Water Miser caps use plastic beads to condense moisture. No recombination takes 
place. No exothermic process thus no heat is generated.

Larry




On Oct 13, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Steve Higgins <st...@surrette.com> wrote:

Wrenches... 

Recombination Caps typically use a palladium plate or balls to help the 
recombination process...  The Hydrogen and Oxygen in gas for pass by the 
palladium. The Hydrogen and Oxygen attaches to the palladium and  it rejoins 
the gasses into a liquid form.  

The problem with this process is it can build up quite a bit of heat.  The nice 
thing about the water-miser caps is it's made up of many palladium marbles, 
instead of a disk. There are some recombination caps that when you are 
charging at higher voltage, or EQ'ing they will heat up tremendously and will 
melt to the tops of the batteries. This forces you to remove the caps during 
heavy charging, or equalizing as melting caps are not a good thing, and whats 
the point of having these if you can't have them on the battery? 

This is why we switched to the water-misers, they don't get as hot and are made 
of materials that can absorb a bit more heat and you don't have to remove them 
when charging. 

If you need help finding these, let me know off list and I'll work with a 
distributor near you to get them. 

 





Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447 e st...@surrette.com
 
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the 
addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. 
Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any 
action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this 
email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message 
and all copies.

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
<la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:
Battery Wrenches,

The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low absorb 
voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge voltage for 
many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of gasses. These 
and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the caps should be 
removed for equalization charges. 

Water Miser caps are not recombination caps, they use condensing beads to trap 
moisture and drip back into the cell. We have sold many hundreds of Water Miser 
caps and some customers report up to 5 months between watering. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Oct 13, 2016, at 11:02 AM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the following.

http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf

Jay

peltz power
> On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> 
> We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down
> on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every
> little bit helps.
> Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. (860)828-6007
> 
> Daryl
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Top o' the morning!
>> Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000
>> batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries  Any ideas
>> where
>> to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from
>> seem to have them.
>> We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate
>> resultssome customers seem to think they help with minimizing
>> electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.Any thoughts?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sunny Regards,
>> Kirpal Khalsa
>> Oregon LRT#25
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> Oregon Solarworks LLC
>> www.oregonsolarworks.com
>> 541-299-0402


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps.

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Battery Wrenches,

The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low absorb 
voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge voltage for 
many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of gasses. These 
and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the caps should be 
removed for equalization charges. 

Water Miser caps are not recombination caps, they use condensing beads to trap 
moisture and drip back into the cell. We have sold many hundreds of Water Miser 
caps and some customers report up to 5 months between watering. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Oct 13, 2016, at 11:02 AM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the following.

http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf 
<http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf>

Jay

peltz power
> On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com 
> <mailto:penobscotso...@midmaine.com> wrote:
> 
> We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down
> on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every
> little bit helps.
> Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. (860)828-6007
> 
> Daryl
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Top o' the morning!
>> Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000
>> batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries  Any ideas
>> where
>> to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from
>> seem to have them.
>> We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate
>> resultssome customers seem to think they help with minimizing
>> electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.Any thoughts?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sunny Regards,
>> Kirpal Khalsa
>> Oregon LRT#25
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> Oregon Solarworks LLC
>> www.oregonsolarworks.com <http://www.oregonsolarworks.com/>
>> 541-299-0402

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hey Drake,

I’ve been using a 334 for many years. I recently looked at the 381 because of 
the wireless removable display. There have been many situations where the wire 
I’m clamped onto puts the display in a position that I can’t easily read it. 
Having a wireless display would be SO handy. Reading frequency through the jaw 
would also be handy.

Larry



On Sep 13, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Drake  wrote:

Hello Wrenches, 

My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, and it needs to be replaced. (An 
intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing to keep around). 

It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A (now discontinued) which in turn 
was replaced by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 to buy. Is there any 
reason to get the 376 instead?


Thanks,

Drake   


 <>Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/  
 




  

 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I’m curious. If a critical load center is powered from an alternative source 
and the main panel is not energized, won’t all neutral conductors still be 
energized from the sub panel back feeding the main? Or is that OK?

Larry



On Sep 8, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi Chris;

Its the same as a switch leg for a light.  The neutral stays at the light, only 
the hot is run down to the switch and back. 
Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), there is no 
provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP. 
This is cleaner and involves much less splicing.  Fewer connections is usually 
better in my book.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
> 
> I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You 
> should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in 
> another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Design Engineer
> Generac Generators Industrial technician
> 
> 




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Tom,

Will you share the failures you had with the testing you did? How long ago was 
the test? It looks to me like Rolls Battery has chosen FullRiver as their OEM 
supplier for AGM batteries. I’m very sure they tested extensively and choose 
carefully.
 
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Sep 2, 2016, at 10:40 AM, Tom Duffy <t...@solar-biz.com> wrote:

Gary
 
A number of years ago I designed the back-up system for the Washington DC Metro 
System communications in conjunction with Apollo Solar. After extensive testing 
of both the Concorde and Full River brand batteries. We chose Concorde 
SunXtender because of failures in the Full River during testing.
 
Kind regards
 
Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer

E-Mail: t...@solar-biz.com <mailto:t...@solar-biz.com>
**Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: 
t...@solar-biz.com <mailto:t...@solar-biz.com> Please update your records so we 
don’t lose touch!**
Main Number: 888-826-0939
Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111 X 122
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first)
 
NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and 
oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end of 
the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.
 Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole 
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information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
and delete any copies of this message.
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hear, Hear, Gary, listen to the Graybeards.

One thing I would like to mention here. Over the last 3 years, I have seen a 
dramatic increase of early failures of Lifeline (like Sun Xtender, made by 
Concorde) batteries. I have been selling and installing Lifeline since 2004 and 
have hundreds of 8-12 year old battery systems being used. I have not been able 
to identify any cause related to use. 

So, has anyone seen Sun Xtender or Concorde early failures in recent years?
BTW, we have been selling FullRiver batteries for a few years now with no 
failures and very happy customers.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103




On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:19 PM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

HI Ray,

I second your opinion.  

jay

peltz power
> On Sep 1, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Ray Walters <r...@solarray.com 
> <mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Gary;
> 
> I think it would be a waste of time to load test a sealed battery that is 9 
> years old.  Even at only 20% discharge, that battery only has 2800 cycles.  
> At 80% discharge, its 550 cycles.  The daily system cycle is probably roughly 
> a 10% cycle, coupled with the frequent deep cycles.  We have been seeing 5 to 
> 7 years in GTB systems with regular sealed batteries.  Even in float mode, 
> they don't last forever.
> Also the customer has already done a basic load test, and the battery is 
> failing.  Its only a matter of time before you start seeing cell failures, 
> and then the system won't even work when the grid is up.
> I'd just replace the set on your next trip.
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 9/1/2016 2:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote:
>> Wrenches
>> You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under several 
>> conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put a volt meter 
>> on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher volts on one 
>> battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens low resistance, 
>> either extreme can be an issue.  Then let sit for at least an hour with no 
>> load and check the volts, next put a fixed load on the system, again a volt 
>> meter check each battery,  here you may find a lower reading then the rest, 
>> there is the problem, now replace the entire bank not just the single 
>> battery. This is an easy test and the customer can see it easily too.
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT 4G LTE smartphone
>> 
>> 
>>  Original message 
>> From: Gary Bassett
>> Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00)
>> To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>)"
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries
>> 
>> We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L 
>> batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently – about 
>> 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage 
>> gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, 
>> this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries 
>> and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take 
>> a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Gary
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 

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[RE-wrenches] Any Exeltech Dealers here?

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Wrenches,

Is anyone setup as a dealer with Exeltech? I need a 22kW MX bi-phase system but 
they only offer me retail pricing. Please contact off the list: 
la...@starlightsolar.com

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Has anyone had Magnum Energy PT-100 controller failures

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Perhaps I should rephrase my question: Has anyone else been selling the PT-100? 
If so, how many? Any failures?
Early on a tech told me that I’m the only one experiencing the failures.

Larry


On Jul 28, 2016, at 4:27 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
<la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

Hello Battery Wrenches,

I have installed about 35 of the Magnum PT-100 charge controllers since 
November 2015. I have had about 10 fail, another one just today. The problem we 
have is the same every time: network communications fail which causes other 
problems until you remove the network cable from the controller. The controller 
functions fine otherwise.

Some failed upon installation, some after a few weeks, others have lasted 
several months. Magnum has been making changes to the controller to try and fix 
it.  Has anyone else had a PT-100 failure? 

Thank you,

Larry 




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 100 parts?

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Have you been here: http://www.luminousrenewable.com/whisper100.php

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:34 AM, Dan Fink <danbo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wrenches;

I was contacted by an individual in remote Alaska who is heavily invested in 
Whisper 100s (the best turbine SWWP ever made IMHO and his). He is looking for 
spare parts, and even entire boneyard turbines. Specific needs right now, a 
Whisper 100 powerhead.

He was dealing with a company in Colorado for a while, but they severed all 
ties with India recently.

Please contact me off-list if you know of a secret stash of Whisper 100 parts. 
I have a client here in CO that will probably need some refurb parts soon.

Best regards;


Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342 
 
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[RE-wrenches] Has anyone had Magnum Energy PT-100 controller failures

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Battery Wrenches,

I have installed about 35 of the Magnum PT-100 charge controllers since 
November 2015. I have had about 10 fail, another one just today. The problem we 
have is the same every time: network communications fail which causes other 
problems until you remove the network cable from the controller. The controller 
functions fine otherwise.

Some failed upon installation, some after a few weeks, others have lasted 
several months. Magnum has been making changes to the controller to try and fix 
it.  Has anyone else had a PT-100 failure? 

Thank you,

Larry 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Bill,

We have sold many hundreds of small inverters of various makes. Run from Samlex 
as a company. Most of their inverters have failed costing us $10’s of 
thousands. They will not take care of dealers.

GoPower has a new high surge 1500 Watt inverter 
http://gpelectric.com/products/1500-watt-high-surge-pure-sine-wave-inverter 
that works wonders with all kinds of complex loads. Extremely low failures and 
their customer service is excellent. 

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jul 28, 2016, at 10:21 AM, frenergy <frene...@psln.com> wrote:

Off-gridders,

   I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less 
than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis).  Any 
personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, 
trace, transformer type inverters?  I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 
1500-2000 watt Samlex.  Clue me in please.

Thanks,

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net


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[RE-wrenches] Off grid in Blythe, AZ

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Is anyone interested in building an off grid system in Blythe, CA? 
Contact me off the list la...@starlightsolar.com

Thank you,

Larry 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Be nice William ;-)

Hi Gary,

DC can not be transformed without converting it to AC first then back to DC 
again. Probably not feasible to do while tracking the MMP.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jul 22, 2016, at 12:50 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:

Gary:

I want one of those DC/DC transformers. Where do you source those?

William Miller

On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar <g...@syvsolar.com 
<mailto:g...@syvsolar.com>> wrote:

> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when 
> they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace 
> with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be 
> installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? 
> Not clear on the concept.
>  
>  
> Gary
>  
>  
> Gary Gordon
>  
>
>www.SYVSolar.com <http://www.syvsolar.com/>
>PO Box 688
>Santa Ynez, CA  93460
>805 688-1213
>NABCEP Certified Installer
>CA Licensed Solar Contractor
>  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

The dates of the defective KC-120-1 (and KC-80-1) are from late 1998 to Dec. 
2002. Any modules in the date period will be replaced at no cost by Kyocera. 
Talk about amazing commitment to the customer, these modules only had a 1 year 
defect warranty. 15 years later and they are still replacing them with 
remanufactured units. 

Bill, the typical failure is Voc of about 10 volts. However, the failure can be 
intermittent. For this reason, any modules in the date period should be 
replaced even though they appear to test OK.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Jul 2, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kyocera had a batch of 120s and 85s that had bad solder connections from a 
certain year. I'm not remembering the year at the moment but we are still 
finding them.

Kyocera has been really amazing about honoring the warranty.


On Jul 2, 2016 2:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com 
<mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Wrenches
Bypass diods fail and may short 
Jerry

On Jul 2, 2016 1:49 PM, "frenergy" <frene...@psln.com 
<mailto:frene...@psln.com>> wrote:
I just came upon a small off-grid system: 12 volt, 4, Kyo 120's (I,mppt= 7.1A; 
Voc = 21.7 or so), Trace C40 with display, etc.   The combiner has fuses for 
each PV/landing.  At noon, output of the array is 10.5 amps.  Clamping the 4 
pvs I get 5.5 amps on 2 PVs and 0.0 on 2 others.  I disconnect leads from 
terminals in PV j-box of the 'dead' PVs and I get Voc=18.5 (pretty hot day) and 
Isc= 6 amps. However when I reconnect these same PVs to the combiner there is 
no change in combined amps.  Fronts and backs of PVs look good, no burns, 
browns, bubbles in backsheet, under the glass looks fine, its all good.  Inside 
the J-boxes look perfect/new.
Ideas?
Thx,
Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849 
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net <http://www.frenergy.net/>


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Turbine Replacement

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

How about another Whisper? http://luminousrenewable.com/whisper200.php
I don’t know of much else in that size and price range.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher




On May 6, 2016, at 11:41 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez  wrote:

Hello
Does anyone have a recommended replacement turbine for a Whisper 100 or whisper 
200?
Would be best to have something fit the existing tower, 2.5" sch40, if 
possible. 

Thanks in advance!

Jeremy Rodriguez 
Solar Installation And Design Expert 
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M St
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update?

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Aurora generators can be used in all off grid applications with full warranty.

http://www.auroragenerators.com/generators

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On May 5, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Luke Christy <sgsrenewab...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Wrenches,
I have been following this thread with interest ever since Lena started it a 
few days ago.
I don't have a whole lot to add but I thought I would chime in. 

I struggle with the same issues I've heard from others on the list of needing  
good quality, smaller (8-15kW) generator options for off-grid. My 
interpretation of the consensus is that there is a lot of stuff available in 
the higher dollar, commercial category, but for smaller gensets the options 
still seem limited and somewhat unsatisfactory. I have been using Generac 
EcoGen units for the last 5 years, and they have been generally ok, though in 
my opinion the quality is not there. In addition, when I finally had a major 
failure on a unit that required warranty service, the process of getting help 
from Generac with that was a nightmare. If not for the generous help of several 
folks on this list, it would have been even worse. As Allan pointed out 
upthread, Generac is simply not set up to deal with the needs of Wrenches who 
support off-grid installations. This is especially true for remote locations. 

For those of you who have been using the 14RES from Kohler, do they reduce the 
warranty period for Off-Grid installations? 

-Luke

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 
NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03   


Solar Gain Services, LLC
PO Box 531
Monte Vista, CO. 81144
sgsrenewab...@gmail.com
719.588.3044
www.sgsrenewables.com









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Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Bill,

Pretty much all you mentioned: leaving batteries unattended for many months 
causes damage from loss of water below the plate tops, sulfation from not being 
equalized for many months, long term high heat in the SW desert. Add to that 
the neglect when they are there and you get short lived batteries.

Larry

On May 1, 2016, at 8:41 PM, frenergy <frene...@psln.com> wrote:

Larry,
When you say "customers ruin the batteries" are they sulphating to 
death or electrolyte getting too low or?  And your sure its due to the lack 
of...cycling? watering? proper charging? during the prolonged periods or just 
poor care overall.

Thanks for a bit more insight.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net <http://www.frenergy.net/>
On 5/1/2016 9:54 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
> Seasonal use is a very frequent application that we design for in Mexico and 
> Canada. Usually the seasonal residence sets for 6 months or longer. We have 
> tried several methods of preserving flooded battery life including 
> water-miser caps, short absorb times, no absorb time, 2 stage charge with the 
> CV below gassing point and battery additives.  Even so, more than half of our 
> Mexico customers ruin batteries in 3-5 years due to prolonged periods without 
> maintenance. The northern customers fair much better. 
> 
> AGM’s perform much better than flooded but Lithium batteries are the best for 
> long term non-use. You can simply discharge the battery to 50% then turn off 
> the battery and walk away. When you return in 6-7 months, you will find it at 
> the same SoC as when you left. For long term seasonal storage, that is all I 
> recommend anymore. 
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dana < 
> <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>d...@solarwork.com <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. 
> Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge 
> rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with shut 
> down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point voltage, 
> & time at full & they still require watering.
> This thread started with “? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to 
> disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out 
> there every season for them.”
>  
> Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have 
> clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 
> years and still doing the job. That said some clients even full time 
> occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or sustain 
> the batteries life).
> 
>  
> 
> Dana Orzel
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
> E -  <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>d...@solarwork.com 
> <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>  - Web - solarwork.com <http://solarwork.com/>
> O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" 
> P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [ 
> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>  <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Starlight 
> Solar Power Systems
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance
>  
> I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. 
>  
> I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since 
> the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell 
> gassing point which will increase water loss.
> 
> Larry
>  
>  
> On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison <reelli...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:reelli...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge 
> controller with an auto equalize function.
>  
> Turn it off!
>  
> I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no 
> issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being 
> boiled dry
>  
> After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and 
> since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all 
> winter long to equalize the batteries
>  
> There was a battery replacement in his future relat

Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Seasonal use is a very frequent application that we design for in Mexico and 
Canada. Usually the seasonal residence sets for 6 months or longer. We have 
tried several methods of preserving flooded battery life including water-miser 
caps, short absorb times, no absorb time, 2 stage charge with the CV below 
gassing point and battery additives.  Even so, more than half of our Mexico 
customers ruin batteries in 3-5 years due to prolonged periods without 
maintenance. The northern customers fair much better. 

AGM’s perform much better than flooded but Lithium batteries are the best for 
long term non-use. You can simply discharge the battery to 50% then turn off 
the battery and walk away. When you return in 6-7 months, you will find it at 
the same SoC as when you left. For long term seasonal storage, that is all I 
recommend anymore.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dana <d...@solarwork.com> wrote:

I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. 
Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge 
rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with shut 
down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point voltage, & 
time at full & they still require watering.
This thread started with “? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to 
disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there 
every season for them.”
 
Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have clients 
with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 years and 
still doing the job. That said some clients even full time occupants cannot 
water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or sustain the batteries life).

 

Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com
O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" 
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
 
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance
 
I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. 
 
I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the 
battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing 
point which will increase water loss.

Larry
 

 
On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison <reelli...@gmail.com 
<mailto:reelli...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 
Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge 
controller with an auto equalize function.
 
Turn it off!
 
I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues 
and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled 
dry
 
After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and 
since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all 
winter long to equalize the batteries
 
There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly!
 
It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar 
to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize
 
It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months 
and it was not a good outcome
 
This particular system had three charge controllers,
A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe
 
Just my thoughts,
Bob ellison
 
 
 
 

On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com 
<mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com> wrote:

> i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in 
> alaska.
>  
> my instructions were simple:
> leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, 
> dc sunfrost etc) "off".
>  
> there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year 
> when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the 
> inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made 
> that mistake once.
>  
> todd
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" <dahlso...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:dahlso...@gmail.com>> said:
> 
> > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects 
> > and
> > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with 
> > freeze
> > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so 
> > snow
> > never covers the array/module.
> > 
> > I alwa

Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. 

I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the 
battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing 
point which will increase water loss.

Larry



On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison  wrote:

Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge 
controller with an auto equalize function.

Turn it off!

I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues 
and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled 
dry

After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and 
since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all 
winter long to equalize the batteries

There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly!

It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar 
to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize

It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months 
and it was not a good outcome

This particular system had three charge controllers,
A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe

Just my thoughts,
Bob ellison





On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com 
 wrote:

> i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in 
> alaska.
>  
> my instructions were simple:
> leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, 
> dc sunfrost etc) "off".
>  
> there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year 
> when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the 
> inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made 
> that mistake once.
>  
> todd
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar"  > said:
> 
> > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects 
> > and
> > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with 
> > freeze
> > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so 
> > snow
> > never covers the array/module.
> > 
> > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent 
> > lamp
> > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights Haven't got around 
> > to
> > working through that design.
> > 
> > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this.
> > 
> > Jesse Dahl
> > 
> > NABCEP PV Installation Professional
> > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
> > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > 
> > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar  > > >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Wrenchers,
> > >
> > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 
> > > 1kW).
> > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all 
> > recommend
> > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be 
> > that they
> > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin 
> > will be
> > subject to below freezing temps)??
> > >
> > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it 
> > > alright to
> > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to
> > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out 
> > there
> > every season for them.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any thoughts.
> > > Adam
> > >
> > > Adam Katzman
> > > Autonomous Energies
> > >


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[RE-wrenches] time delay relay

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Wrenches,

I need a relay with off delay timer to control a battery charger and I’m having 
difficulty finding the type. The sequence I need is as follows:
Power or trigger on, relay closes.
Power or trigger off, relay opens and starts delay timer.
Power or trigger on, relay closes after timer has finished.

Does anyone know what this type is called or any other help?

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

You can tell the grey-beards from younger wrenches…..A square wave is generated 
and modified to act like a sine wave, thus, it is a modified square wave. As I 
see it, in order to deceive the consumer, the term "modified sine wave" was 
created.

Larry

On Apr 26, 2016, at 5:57 AM, Carl Hansen  wrote:

Allen,
 …. I think some folks refer to these inverters as modified square wave.

  Carl
  Hansen Elect.

On 4/25/2016 9:15 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
> Wrenches,
> Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC submersible pump 
> from a modified square wave inverter?…..


> Thank you,
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@sindelarsolar.com 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738 cell
> 
> 


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