Re: Faux firebox (now firebox Facts!)
Thanks Keith (as always!). O.S 3/4 Britannia also has side doors to remove the ashes. (I haven't made the dampers for the Maisie yet! - -but your drawing is still on the desk top) Geoff Royce, If you go back through my original posting, you will see that the door on the side is the cinder clean out. The dampers are the doors on the front and back of the ash pan. The only time the side door is opened, is to remove the accumulated ash, and any small clinkers that made it through the grates. Large clinkers can also be removed there, but only by dumping the drop grate and pushing the large clinker off of the rocking grates, onto the hinger drop grate. The side door is not used for firing control. Keith - Original Message - From: Royce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam sslivesteam@colegroup.com Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Faux firebox (now firebox Facts!) Keith Taylor wrote: The doors you mention are located at the front and rear of the ash pan, and are called dampers and they control where the air enters the fire, and how much. Hi Keith. You know, I just re-visited Vance's photo and it appears that there is a hinged thingy on the side of the firebox as opposed to the front or back. Am I mis-reading the photo ? royce
Re: Faux firebox
Vance, The pic wasn't stripped, you made a faux pas but got away with it--hey, it was worth it! Thanks! Geoff. P.S. I am attaching a highly exciting photo of my wife and me in bed and steaming up on our 60th anniversary but no doubt it'll get stripped. I have no such luck as you did!! Royce, Here's a photo of the firebox of an 0-4-4. Obviously the arms for mounting the front pivot are missing, but as you can see, it's pretty simple. Just a metal box hanging down between the frames. On some, you could see the rivets staying the wet legs, but on this one, it looks like the ashpan is all that's visible. I hope that helped. (List readers, sorry this will get stripped off the note. If you're dying to see the photo, I'll be glad to send it to you if you contact me off-list.) regards, -vance-
Re: Saturday steam up.
G'Day Gordon, A lovely day to run and a lovely run--where did you say you live--must be Southern California, surely not Australia in the autumn Don't you call it the wet! And the funniest run was Sir Nigel Gresley with 7 on, chasing a Ruby with 1 car, it took 3 laps to run him down! Now that was sad!!! ;-) Geoff. Well we had a running day herein Clematis[Oz] on Saturday, and it rained all day! not Aussie weather at all,but it didnt stop them, 20 runners,and locos from Roundhouse,Accucraft,Argyle Aster and home builds..it was so wet that by 3 pm ,the Asters with 6 cars on where slipping at the top of the grade,due to wet and oily track,but so where Accucrafts with he same load.but the steam exhaust was wonderful! cool ,wet day and long trails hanging over the track.. And the funniest run was Sir Nigel Gresley with 7 on, chasing a Ruby with 1 car, it took 3 laps to run him down! Gordon Watson.
Re: A Test
Noel, Heard you loud and clear, at my age that is remarkable! Geoff This is a test to see if I got things fixed on this dadburn machine. Keep your pressure (steam that is) up Noel
Re: A Test
Noel, I agree, a necessary evil these days--but as you say, give me steam any time. Geoff Geoff Thanks for letting me know that the post came through. I guess you don't see your own posts which confuses me. I confuse easily when it comes to these machines. Give me steam anytime. Noel Original Message Follows From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: sslivesteam@colegroup.com To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam sslivesteam@colegroup.com Subject: Re: A Test Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:48:11 -0800 Noel, Heard you loud and clear, at my age that is remarkable! Geoff This is a test to see if I got things fixed on this dadburn machine. Keep your pressure (steam that is) up Noel
Re: no, the list isn't broken ...NOW Saturday Steamup
Thanks Clark, Great activity and pics, wonderful steaming. Really steamed the cockles of me heart after muddying myself up cleaning the pond- It's one messy job, found bottom fish I didn't realise were still alive! Would you please move Vegas closer to Humboldt County, we have so few steamers that are really active! Fortunately I have one friend who lives a block away so we often have a steam up of two! Thanks again for sharing!! BTW where is a pic of Lord Clark steaming?? Geoff. Well we did run trains yesterday at my monthly steamup. 14 fellas attended and several ran trains. I only got a few photos as I was busy hosting. So here is what was on my camera's memory card when I looked just now. http://home.earthlink.net/~clarklord/Steamup/ Bob Sorenson has scratch built a 0-4-0 alcohol fired steamer. The first runs in January proved it needed a better burner. The next runs in February showed it needed a better firebox and alcohol feed system. Yesterday's runs showed it made lots of steam but needed viton o-rings in the cylinders as the graphited yard had blown out of the piston groove. By April it will be a killer engine. A one of a kind 1:20.3 British outline shunting engine. Dave Hottmann Garrett and GarrettGramps are all about Dave Hottmann (seen next to the track in the first photo along with Steve Davis looking on) and his Accucraft conversion of two Superior 0-6-2T engines into a 0-6-0 + 0-6-0 Superior Garrett. The Gramps cars are 1:20.3 Bachman tank cars. Next is my dear friend Lou Banning. Lou has been helping me over the past several years to build and maintain my large track. He has always been there when I needed a hand. Thank you Louis. In several photos you can see a DRGW green passenger train which belongs to Lou. RubyReefer is of my very own Ruby with three of my 18 Accucraft Reefers being operated by Bob Sorenson's 11 year old son Andy. Hook em early I say. SteveDavisMimi is of his engine hauling his kit bashed car set. Steve owns ride on sized 7 1/2 inch gauge engines and we are both Riverside Live Steamers members. I invited him to one of the monthly steamups several months ago and it looks like the gauge one bug is bitting. In GarrettGramps 0304 you see several fellas. And you see a string of Southern Railway Bulleid coaches of mine. Out in front of those is Frank Russo's SNCF 232 U1 which is alcohol fired. Frank got his exercise yesterday running that engine. It does have a touchy throttle. But then when you watch Tony Dixon run his coal fired version of the same engine, it's off to the races. Both really zoom around the layout. Lastly in GarrettGramps 06 you see the table and Webber Kettle where I prepared lunch for the guys on steamup Saturday. Yesterday it was hamburgers with all the fixings and potato salad. I must give credit to Jim Crabb of Seabrook Texas (near Houston) for inspiring me to host monthly steamups. It was Jim who was doing that very thing in Houston and I could see that would be a good way to get our Las Vegas Gauge One live steam community up and running. We've been at this monthly business for 2-3 years now. At first there was just Lou Banning and me but now we've grown to 15 or so fellas and about half turn up with engines to run and the rest enjoy the fellowship. I know the Seattle bunch are now having two steamups a month and they are cooking lunch also. What I'm getting at is... YOU can do the same thing in your area. It's amazing just how much fun you can have for very little cost. Think about doing it. With the advent of Accucraft's line of engines there are many folks who own one (or more) and need a track upon which to operate. And all of us who have Aster, Roundhouse, DJB, etc. engines can show em how it's done. :) A few phone calls or emails will bring them out of the wood work. Knowing that every month (rain or shine) a steamup will happen makes folks look forward to attending. If you have enough layouts you can do the round robin kind of thing that the Puget Sound GRS live steamers do. They are blessed with a PSGRS owned live steam modular layout which is setup all the time (when not at a trade show) and several persons who have live steam tracks at their homes. The bottom line is ... Just Do It. Cheers Clark Clark B Lord - Las Vegas, Nevada USA Las Vegas Live Steamers - Gauge 1 live steam Treasurer, Las Vegas Garden Railway Society Member, Steam Events LLC Dave Cole wrote: ... unless it is and then i won't see this message move over it. it's been a week since the last posting to the list and in recent hours a number of people have e-mailed me to say that they are no longer getting the list. you are. there just haven't been any messages for you to receive. //snip// the irony here is that i was going to exhort you to contribute to the list, but i think that's a wrong thing to say. if i'm going to
Re: Sinsheim Foto quiz
What's the prize? Geoff. some of the photos I shot at the Sinsheim live steam meeting are posted on his site This week's quiz: what loco did I use for the background? ;-) Pete
Re: Sinsheim Fotos
Dear Snowed under Bert, I have really enjoyed viewing many of your photos to this moment. I'll swear there are more locos than people, a lot of models of US prototypes too. Thank you Pete for organizing and reorganizing them so that they are now so easy to pick out and view.Good job! Kudos to both of you, I am having fun!! Geoff To all Thanks to Pete Thornton some of the photos I shot at the Sinsheim live steam meeting are posted on his site. These are 5, 7 1/4, 1 and 0 gauges. I'm not the best photographer but these should give some idea of the meeting held each year 2nd weekend in Jan. Next year 13th,14th and 15th Jan. The address for those interested.: http://gold.mylargescale.com/petethornton/sinsheim Bert - (snowed under) in Austria. - Bert Edmunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Big Boy price sticks to neurons
Gary, You know how it is! labor rates, including skilled labor are very very low in China and they are now producing some excellent products. Labor in Japan and the other developed nations cannot compete. I'll tell you one thing, it ain't going to last. I will have to stay with Aster until Accucraft produces a Brit loco, 1/32 scale which I might consider, (if I have any money left!)Anyway, I prefer kits and alcohol, also I'm not into Big Boys (no pun intended!) as a hobby item although I think the prototype is awesome-- I did own an HO Big Boy. Incidentally Accucraft doesn't make junk, I bet the Big Boy is excellent quality with piston and rings copied from Aster! Speaking of products made in China, at the Diamondhead steam up I was very pleasantly surprised and impressed (overall) with the Aristocraft Mikado-- H--MM was it a Mikado? Consider that price, the model was unique. I think we will find many Sparkies also steaming! Hooray!! Aristocraft did a remarkable marketing job, no matter what your opinion they are an excellent contributor to our hobby . Incidentally I collect some Britain's military figures, they are now made in China, are much more accurately detailed--but--but-they cost more. Maybe it's in the profit! Geoff, the unwise one! I think you made the price stick in my mind Vance! How can they make it for that price? That is amazaing. Are they making pistons with rings or just metal to metal? Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor Maybe I saw the Big Boy before and immediately forgot it because it's out of my area of interest, but when I read the suggested price it stuck this time: would you believe 4850 Euro? (That's US$6300 at today's rate.) We just saw an unbuilt Aster Big Boy go for $17500 on eBay; this guy could have save 2/3 of that and a LOT of building time if he could have waited until next year... regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass;
Re: Off Topic
Keith, I use WD40 for weed killer around the track, none ever touches my locos or the grandfather clock! Geoff - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a different time, I was a gunsmith. In days of old, Blueing was actually Browning, and was accomplished by promoting rust to the exterior finish of a firearm and then steaming the finish, etc., etc.. On the right firearm (or small cannon) it's a really beautiful finish. Hello Trent, I agree with you and Harry as well! I aside from messing with live steam locomotives, also enjoy working on old clocks. I now won't even look at a clock where the owner got it running again by squirting WD into the works! They will take an old clock that has been in an attic where the temps reach well over 100°F amd cooked the oil into a gummy mess, then without taking it apart to properly clean it, will hose it down with WD. This will make the gears move and the clock will run for a day or two, then as dirt clings to the coating of WD that's been slathered on everywhere, it becomes a grinding paste that laps away the pivot points and enlarges the openings in the movement's plates. As the WD turns to an almost glass hard crust and the clock slows down, they will blithly squirt away with yet more WD. After several treatments like this, they will bring the clock to some poor soul saying how they had restored their treasure heirloom and had it running great. But, it has stopped now, and must need something else to make it go. They know it isn't lack of lubrication, because they've used a quart of WD on it already! Like I said, I won't even look at those clocks, not only because the WD is a bear to remove, but mostly because during the time it was there holding the abrasive grains of dirt and mundge in the bearings, it has worn away the pivot holes so you now cannot locate the center to center distances of the clock's wheels and arbors. Nasty stuff, at least around any sort of precision machinery! Keith
Re: No mail received!
Well Dave I can't sit at the computer when I am steaming a loco in the garden and then repairing it at night and then watching train videos!! :-)-- or building kits. Then I'm ready for classic I Love Lucy! Steam on!-- Geoff. i have kept checking but the system seems to be working ok ... just nobody interested in live steam anymore ... :-( ... \dmc -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers http://45mm.com/sslivesteam/lists/ ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 20-24, 2005 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
Re: Diamond Head Draw Bar Pull Results
Thanks Walt, I am as dumb as the stuff that dogs leave on my lawn, I have owned a Cricket for years and should have realized all this! Tch, Tch! Sure glad I was too busy yacking to enter mine, it was with me in DH to satisfy Bill Ford that I had really installed his water level detection system. It's great and since I now have a Saley goodall valve installed I can put an auxiliary butane tank in the wagon behind the Cricket. It will run forever and ever. With Bill's developing water pump design activated by the sensor you can add a lot more evers. Thanks Bert for your report a on Sinsheim. Must have been very enjoyable. Geoff. I wonder if I could save that stuff on the lawn, dry it and fire my 3/4 scale locos with it.-- Pungenticity Power?? The problem was that the wire was required to be tight at the start, with the cricket if it doesn't turn a few revs, it just hangs up. If I had been able to let it run a few inches to take up slack wire, it would have been different. Most locomotives were breaking traction and the wheels were spinning when the measurement was taken. On this particular Cricket, the wheels will not slip. Keep your steam up! Walt
Re: Diamond Head Draw Bar Pull Results
I agree, Great job Bruce! Yes Jeff, the Cricket in my humble but highly qualified opinion is a geared loco-- it has several gears, a truly geared loco. I bet that with a lb or so added it could do very well, much better than 9 oz. Why didn't you add some weight Walt? But would that be cheating? Who cares!! Geoff. Great reporting, Bruce! Fun events such as this and folks with a fine sense of humor are what makes live-steaming such a great hobby! Doesn't a Cricket qualify as a geared locomotive, though? Jeff Williams 3 Axels Powered Peter Jobush Argyle Ten Wheeler 33.3 oz *Bob Starr Accucraft Superior 48.9 oz Wow, an 0-6-0 pulled as much as a Mikado! 4 Axels Powered Jan DeKeles Aristo Craft Mikado 48.9 oz Looks like this will be an outstanding locomotive for the price. Too bad the Aster Berkshire wasn't tested! Tim Hytrek Accucraft C-21 44.4 oz Dave Barker Accucraft K-27 64.9 oz *David Bailey Accucraft/DJB C-21 84.0 oz Claimed handicap having to coal fire left handed. Doug Joslyn Accucraft C-21 39.7 oz Geared Locos Bill Payne Aster 2 Truck Climax 47.3 oz *Tim Hytrek Accucraft 3 Cyl Shay 53.6 oz Dave Barker Accucraft 2 Cyl Shay 44.4 oz Mike BennettAccucraft 2 Cyl Shay 34.5 oz Al Sadler Aster 3 Truck Climax 16.5 oz 4 Pawed (new special category - limited to less than 10 pounds overall weight.) *Wolfgang JobushBreed Not Specified 69.9 oz Toe nail sharpening is not allowed in this category. Thanks to Bill Burgess and Jim Sanders for their help running this contest. Bruce Gathman Eldorado Timber and Mining Company Tall Trees - Deep Shafts Live Steam Shay Locomotives and Lots of Logs Cars! Bruce G. Gathman, President
Re: safety valves on mikado
Joe, Yes, I misunderstood--I looked for you, met some of the list, missed many. My Cricket with the Bill Ford water level detection system was great-- Norm Saley provided me with a goodall valve to replace the whistle which is really only good to use as a pressure (and water) release anyway. The Lion ran like the Lion in the Wizard of Oz--would only run a few feet! Checked it later on rollers, the axle pump worked beautifully but the fiber glass wicks so expertly (?) packed by me had fused over. I had packed them too tightly! I must say that I have had fibre glass wicks in some of my locos that have performed well over years of use. Anyway I have now packed the lion wicks with some excellent ceramic wicks donated by David Morgan-Kirby and invented by Dick Abbot. The Aster Berkshire and Duchess of Sutherland were present and steaming--beautiful locos to admire and steam. Peter Comely had his LMS Coronation cobbled together from Schools cylinders and bits of other Aster locos. It was absolutely fabulous! Even pulled the Duchess when she/it ran out of fuel--or some such thing. We all had a great time --as always! Geoff, I am not going to Diamondhead because it is bad timing for work. I figured Aster Hobby USA would be unavailable until after Diamondhead - sorry to be confusing. Have a good trip. Joe On Jan 10, 2005, at 9:30 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: JOE, OK, Better E mail Aster as you first suggested, that is, if you survive Diamondhead. I arrive tomorrow night--see you there. Geoff Geoff, Aster instructions for the Mikado just state that the working pressure is between 3 and 4 bar. There is no mention of maximum boiler pressure. The instructions are inconsistent as to what pressure reading the safety valve should vent. The instructions inconsistently provide that the safety valve should vent at 3.0, 3.5 and 3.5 to 4.0. Thanks, Joe On Jan 10, 2005, at 5:54 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Joe, Usually the Aster instructions list the ratings for the max boiler pressure and working pressure. As for whistles, I steam Brit locos and their whistles are usually like gnat farts--Peep. Peep! Geoff. Geoff, Thanks! My new one adjusts nicely. Now, I understand the point of the paint on the safety valve. I am going to tweak it so it vents between 4.0 and 5.0 bar. I was reading the SitG article about adding a whistle to the mikado. The article recommends 5.0 bar for the optimal whistle sound; though, a good whistle sound can be achieved at half that per the article. Perhaps, 5.0 bar might be a maximum setting. After Diamondhead, I will email Aster Hobby USA for their answer. Thanks, Joe On Jan 9, 2005, at 5:31 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Joe, Yes, you are on target-- the two slots-which are also the vents, are used to tighten the spring. I use strong tweezers or needle nose pliers but a home made tool would be preferable. Tighten clockwise as that compresses the spring and raises the pressure at which the valve vents. Geoff, How do you adjust the safety valve? Do you insert a tool of some sort into the two slots on top that are opposite each other and turn? Does a clockwise turn raise the pressure at which the safety valve vents? Thanks, Joe On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Joe, I have found it necessary to adjust safety valves over the years. Aster are usually simple. Sometimes the adjustment is for cleaning, sometimes because the seal ( usually a bit of paint) deteriorates and the valve adjusting nut starts to unscrew. I don't know the pressure relief for a Mikado safety but I suspect about 3.5 to 4 bar is good. I usually test straight from an airline with an accurate pressure gauge in the line and adjust accordingly. Then I install the valve and air test the boiler, then the steam test, If all is OK on the steam test, I seal the adjusting nut with a touch of enamel paint, usually red. Geoff. Hello, I ran the Mikado for a few hours today. My three year old was not happy with it running in reverse mostly. I tried to explain that I have to break it in again in both directions - it just wasn't working with her. Oh well. Anyway, I installed two new safety valves because I had to replace two that were releasing steam at 2.0 and 2.5 bar. One of the new ones is releasing steam at 3.5 bar. Is there any way to adjust? My understanding is that adjusting is a bad idea. And what is the optimal pressure for these Mikado safety valves to start venting? Thanks, Joe
Re: safety valves on mikado
Joe, Usually the Aster instructions list the ratings for the max boiler pressure and working pressure. As for whistles, I steam Brit locos and their whistles are usually like gnat farts--Peep. Peep! Geoff. Geoff, Thanks! My new one adjusts nicely. Now, I understand the point of the paint on the safety valve. I am going to tweak it so it vents between 4.0 and 5.0 bar. I was reading the SitG article about adding a whistle to the mikado. The article recommends 5.0 bar for the optimal whistle sound; though, a good whistle sound can be achieved at half that per the article. Perhaps, 5.0 bar might be a maximum setting. After Diamondhead, I will email Aster Hobby USA for their answer. Thanks, Joe On Jan 9, 2005, at 5:31 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Joe, Yes, you are on target-- the two slots-which are also the vents, are used to tighten the spring. I use strong tweezers or needle nose pliers but a home made tool would be preferable. Tighten clockwise as that compresses the spring and raises the pressure at which the valve vents. Geoff, How do you adjust the safety valve? Do you insert a tool of some sort into the two slots on top that are opposite each other and turn? Does a clockwise turn raise the pressure at which the safety valve vents? Thanks, Joe On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Joe, I have found it necessary to adjust safety valves over the years. Aster are usually simple. Sometimes the adjustment is for cleaning, sometimes because the seal ( usually a bit of paint) deteriorates and the valve adjusting nut starts to unscrew. I don't know the pressure relief for a Mikado safety but I suspect about 3.5 to 4 bar is good. I usually test straight from an airline with an accurate pressure gauge in the line and adjust accordingly. Then I install the valve and air test the boiler, then the steam test, If all is OK on the steam test, I seal the adjusting nut with a touch of enamel paint, usually red. Geoff. Hello, I ran the Mikado for a few hours today. My three year old was not happy with it running in reverse mostly. I tried to explain that I have to break it in again in both directions - it just wasn't working with her. Oh well. Anyway, I installed two new safety valves because I had to replace two that were releasing steam at 2.0 and 2.5 bar. One of the new ones is releasing steam at 3.5 bar. Is there any way to adjust? My understanding is that adjusting is a bad idea. And what is the optimal pressure for these Mikado safety valves to start venting? Thanks, Joe
Re: safety valves on mikado
JOE, OK, Better E mail Aster as you first suggested, that is, if you survive Diamondhead. I arrive tomorrow night--see you there. Geoff Geoff, Aster instructions for the Mikado just state that the working pressure is between 3 and 4 bar. There is no mention of maximum boiler pressure. The instructions are inconsistent as to what pressure reading the safety valve should vent. The instructions inconsistently provide that the safety valve should vent at 3.0, 3.5 and 3.5 to 4.0. Thanks, Joe On Jan 10, 2005, at 5:54 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Joe, Usually the Aster instructions list the ratings for the max boiler pressure and working pressure. As for whistles, I steam Brit locos and their whistles are usually like gnat farts--Peep. Peep! Geoff. Geoff, Thanks! My new one adjusts nicely. Now, I understand the point of the paint on the safety valve. I am going to tweak it so it vents between 4.0 and 5.0 bar. I was reading the SitG article about adding a whistle to the mikado. The article recommends 5.0 bar for the optimal whistle sound; though, a good whistle sound can be achieved at half that per the article. Perhaps, 5.0 bar might be a maximum setting. After Diamondhead, I will email Aster Hobby USA for their answer. Thanks, Joe On Jan 9, 2005, at 5:31 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Joe, Yes, you are on target-- the two slots-which are also the vents, are used to tighten the spring. I use strong tweezers or needle nose pliers but a home made tool would be preferable. Tighten clockwise as that compresses the spring and raises the pressure at which the valve vents. Geoff, How do you adjust the safety valve? Do you insert a tool of some sort into the two slots on top that are opposite each other and turn? Does a clockwise turn raise the pressure at which the safety valve vents? Thanks, Joe On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Joe, I have found it necessary to adjust safety valves over the years. Aster are usually simple. Sometimes the adjustment is for cleaning, sometimes because the seal ( usually a bit of paint) deteriorates and the valve adjusting nut starts to unscrew. I don't know the pressure relief for a Mikado safety but I suspect about 3.5 to 4 bar is good. I usually test straight from an airline with an accurate pressure gauge in the line and adjust accordingly. Then I install the valve and air test the boiler, then the steam test, If all is OK on the steam test, I seal the adjusting nut with a touch of enamel paint, usually red. Geoff. Hello, I ran the Mikado for a few hours today. My three year old was not happy with it running in reverse mostly. I tried to explain that I have to break it in again in both directions - it just wasn't working with her. Oh well. Anyway, I installed two new safety valves because I had to replace two that were releasing steam at 2.0 and 2.5 bar. One of the new ones is releasing steam at 3.5 bar. Is there any way to adjust? My understanding is that adjusting is a bad idea. And what is the optimal pressure for these Mikado safety valves to start venting? Thanks, Joe
Re: safety valves on mikado
Joe, I have found it necessary to adjust safety valves over the years. Aster are usually simple. Sometimes the adjustment is for cleaning, sometimes because the seal ( usually a bit of paint) deteriorates and the valve adjusting nut starts to unscrew. I don't know the pressure relief for a Mikado safety but I suspect about 3.5 to 4 bar is good. I usually test straight from an airline with an accurate pressure gauge in the line and adjust accordingly. Then I install the valve and air test the boiler, then the steam test, If all is OK on the steam test, I seal the adjusting nut with a touch of enamel paint, usually red. Geoff. Hello, I ran the Mikado for a few hours today. My three year old was not happy with it running in reverse mostly. I tried to explain that I have to break it in again in both directions - it just wasn't working with her. Oh well. Anyway, I installed two new safety valves because I had to replace two that were releasing steam at 2.0 and 2.5 bar. One of the new ones is releasing steam at 3.5 bar. Is there any way to adjust? My understanding is that adjusting is a bad idea. And what is the optimal pressure for these Mikado safety valves to start venting? Thanks, Joe
Re: Planes and trains
Thanks Tony--or no thanks!! Actually I don't bait the security people, I find it in my best interest to be very friendly--I have some fun with them!! Rule Britannia The Loco, that is!! Geoff. Which explains why the UK agents play Rule Britannia and give me some coal, while the US agents say I remember you, your Geoff Spenceley- Strip off and bend. Thanks Geoff, you owe me one. Tony D. - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam sslivesteam@colegroup.com Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: Re: Planes and trains You hit the nail onthe head, Keith, Some know about our models, some don't-- I suggest lack of training so I duly now and here, appoint you: Keith Bucklitch as a STEAM ( Security Train Expert Agent Manager) . Just write to George W and the Queen to confirm your appointment. Your Salary? mega bucks-er -Quid? a month. Our security agents are not well trained liked those at Heathrow, the US agents are a mixed bunch from my experience and not very professional. I usually lecture them which makes my day but not theirs when I ask for their supervisor! Geoff. Geoff. My experience is that the scanner operators at Heathrow airport have no difficulty in telling exactly what is in the box. I took a 16mm scale loco to New Zealand, via Chicago and Los Angeles. It was carried in a blue plastic toolbox. At Heathrow, I asked the scanner girl, Can you tell what it is? A locomotive she replied, Do you want to come and have a look? So we put the loco, in its box back on the conveyor and nipped round to the viewing side. Not only could one see the detail of the steam loco, but tell the colour of it as well. When we had to go through the scanners again at Chicago, it was a totally different story. They just did not have a clue! What's in the box, Man?, You'll have to open the box. I did, but I don't think they still knew what it was! I had similar response at LA last February when I was returning to the UK. Keith
Re: Planes and trains
You hit the nail onthe head, Keith, Some know about our models, some don't-- I suggest lack of training so I duly now and here, appoint you: Keith Bucklitch as a STEAM ( Security Train Expert Agent Manager) . Just write to George W and the Queen to confirm your appointment. Your Salary? mega bucks-er -Quid? a month. Our security agents are not well trained liked those at Heathrow, the US agents are a mixed bunch from my experience and not very professional. I usually lecture them which makes my day but not theirs when I ask for their supervisor! Geoff. Geoff. My experience is that the scanner operators at Heathrow airport have no difficulty in telling exactly what is in the box. I took a 16mm scale loco to New Zealand, via Chicago and Los Angeles. It was carried in a blue plastic toolbox. At Heathrow, I asked the scanner girl, Can you tell what it is? A locomotive she replied, Do you want to come and have a look? So we put the loco, in its box back on the conveyor and nipped round to the viewing side. Not only could one see the detail of the steam loco, but tell the colour of it as well. When we had to go through the scanners again at Chicago, it was a totally different story. They just did not have a clue! What's in the box, Man?, You'll have to open the box. I did, but I don't think they still knew what it was! I had similar response at LA last February when I was returning to the UK. Keith
Re: Re[2]: Aster Lion topping with water
Tom, Thanks, I had discussed the fittings with Bob Paule but so unfortunately he didn't have the opportunity to pursue the matter. Geoff Geoff Having worked RD in the medical industry I was aware of the variety of luer fittings available. I always concentrated on the stainless steel ones and never even gave a thought to the nylon ones being useful. After Diamondhead I will check and see if we can start stocking some of the luer-lok fittings for tubing. Probably just fittings for 3/32 and 1/8 tubing. Keep steaming, Tom Eaton Sulphur Springs Steam Models - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam sslivesteam@colegroup.com Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Aster Lion topping with water Joe, Thanks for the site, altho the fittings seem too big. I use Ark-Plas fittingsa lot. They are nylon I believe, very inexpensive and close with about a 1/4 turn, good up to 60psi or more. I have one installed my Schools but use them mostly for air connections when testing my locos big and little. They are not designed for connecting when the line is pressurized but work very well where there is no pressure or when connecting where there is a check valve. They only sell them in bulk, so they sent me quite a few gratis! This was several years ago and I have had complete success-- with hot water too. Ark-Plas Products Flippin, AR (501) 453-2343 There are lots of sites on them-I suggest you search Yahoo for Ark-Plas Products and you'll find lots about Ark-Plas for information , now I have to explore myself! --I think Sulphur Springs should carry them! A short hose to could fitted to the tender feed of a Lion and Gary could use his Trackside pump quite effectively--No fiddly screwing - almost as quick as inserting the Squirt bottle tube Geoff
Re: Planes and trains
Jim et al, Thanks one and all for the information and advice on trains and planes. It is appreciated. Geoff lI continue to encounter NO problems flying Southwest with as many as three steamers in my carryon. Jim Crabb
Re: Planes and trains to steamups
Thanks Dave, I shall take a copy of your email with me!--Just the last Paragraph. Geoff actually, in the world of the tia, airlines have no desire to control over what gets carried onto their planes ... if something goes wrong, they can blame the government. i haven't travelled as much in the last three years as i had in the previous three years, but i still get out six or more times a year. tia rules and regs are enforced differently at different airports (at sfo they let you wear your shoes through if you think -- or know -- they won't set off the alarm; at the las vegas airport, you take off your shoes, dammit, or don't plan to get on the plane). which is a long way of saying: your mileage may vary. i endorse kevin's recommendation that you warn the x-ray monitor that they're about to see a model train go past their face (no need to mention propellant). if you were travelling and if you were to encounter uneven enforcement of the rules and somebody at the tia were to say you couldn't take the locomotive on the plane, just ask for a supervisor. explain that you're in contact with 275 other model train enthusiasts and nobody has ever complained they had a problem getting through security with a model train. my couple of pennies. \dmc -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers http://45mm.com/sslivesteam/lists/ ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 20-24, 2005 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
Re: Aster Lion Axle Pump Interest?
Joe, Thanks for the info on the axle pumps. I ran the Lion, for some reason the wicks wouldn't burn (altho I had a lot a lot of successful runs in the last 1-1/2 years) so I had to do some work on them. After fiddling, I couldn't find anything wrong--I think I had got them wet somehow. (not with my favorite brew either!). Later, when I got the wicks a-firing properly. I did a test with the axle pump--the loco ran for 24 minutes then the alky ran out. I had to add water to the tender on the fly, the little devils use a lot of water, a lot in it's natural state! Whether the bypass valve is open or closed it does not seem to make any noticeable difference to the performance! The drain cock makes a world of difference and the engine is much easier to start, I naughtily left it open a tad--kept the speed down as I had no heavy load. I also have a crude self made drain on the valve chest but I don't use it now--it is not as effective. I must say that all this steaming was in 40 degrees F. In Diamondhead, the bloody thing will probably burn up. So I am bringing wick material and ice cubes, some of the ice cubes for the loco and some for the Tanqueray! Geoff Hello, Last week, I emailed Geoff Calver about an axle pump for the Lion. He forwarded my inquiry to the builder of the axle pump as shown on the G1MRA website http://www.gaugeone.org/story_behind_the_axle_driven_wat.htm . This morning, Markus replied. Unfortunately, he is out of the kits from the last batch he made. He is, however, willing to make more if at least two more persons want one for their Lion. Please reply if you want one and I will help coordinate. Regards, Joe
Re: Planes and trains to steamups
Dan, Good to hear your advice--Any way, after all my fussing and worry, I have shipped to Diamondhead by UPSmashup.!! I had more than I could comfortably carry on board. See you in Diamondhead I hope.. Geoff. Just a by the by, Don't say Live Steam. Not that it would be illegal, but it now gets people asking questions and takes time, and yada yada. Just say you are going to a model train convention and you have a model train engine. Also, don't even think about bringing gas, alcohol or even steam oil -carry on or checked. The first two ARE illegal and the last one probably is not suppose to be taken on board an aircraft. Don't argue with me that the oil would never cause a problem, you are dealing with the government. Also, go thru your tool box and use common sense if you ever want to see a particular tool. Tools that might be confiscated for carry on will probably be ok if you put them in checked luggage. Knives, screw drivers, awls, etc should be in checked luggage. Yes, some one will reply back that they have carried some of these items as carry on, but it would be really hit and miss with the different airports. It has been a while since I have carried an engine on an airplane, but I do go to the airport on a regular basis. Even before 9-11, I have lost oil and tools to security. Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam sslivesteam@colegroup.com Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 5:21 PM Subject: Re: Planes and trains to steamups Thanks Dave, I shall take a copy of your email with me!--Just the last Paragraph. Geoff actually, in the world of the tia, airlines have no desire to control over what gets carried onto their planes ... if something goes wrong, they can blame the government. i haven't travelled as much in the last three years as i had in the
Re: Rose Parade loco float
Keith- Whoops, I was so interested in the loco part, I didn't even listen to the whistle/airhorn! I have a one track mind! Enjoyed your comments! Hope your health REALLY improves for the New Year--and on! Best Wishes, Geoff Incidentally the Pasadena Rose Parade came through--at least Honda did. There was a beautiful 4-8-4 (Northern) and it was so realistic--steam coming from the cyl drain cocks and a leaky piston rod packing. Hi Geoff, We watched the parade, as my wife is a flower and parade fan. I saw the Honda float, and while it did look admirable, I was not happy when they blew the whistle, which was not a whistle at all! But rather an air horn right off of a diesel electric locomotive. You'd think after doing all the research to get an accurate rendition of a Walschaerts valve gear, the least they could have done is to use a real whistle! At the very least, a Nathan Air Chime, which is a warning device that the Nathan Co. developed that used air whistles that sounded a musical chime tuned just like a steam whistle. While I was running back on Conrail they had a bunch of old EMD diesel switchers off the old New Haven RR that used the Nathan air whistles, and they sounded great, just didn't carry quite as far as a steam whistle. (which is why the NH had them, so they wouldn't upset the folks living in the expensive New York City suburbs!) Keith
Planes and trains
When flying, can anyone out in the steam inform me concerning any problems there may be taking a small loco (like the Aster Lion) in the carry-on bag on board. I would like recent experiences as the type of security keeps changing--like from federal employees to private security companies, etc.-- trained chimpanzees next? Geoff.
Re: Boiler washing
I think you have a valid point, Tony. My Aster Schools is almost 30 years old and I have never done anything to the boiler, The boiler check valve is clean and used for every run as I pump water through it from the tender. My Aster KGV is about 13 yrs old, nothing done to that boiler-the sight glass is still clear, I have never had to clean it I do use good distilled water--sometimes I leave water in the boilers, sometimes I take it out, depends on how long before I think I might run the loco again. Geoff Boiler washing Hm... ...in 15 years with one engine using the same boiler, wearing out two sets of O rings in the cylinders I have yet to see one smidge of scale build up? ...were the boilers in question all furred up and white inside? Change your water source! The only hint of a blockage in all my years of steaming...countless thousands of scale miles the only bockage I have had is a small seed getting in the admission steam line...that took a little figuering out but no calcite buildup! If steam is not getting through make sure your super heater is not got a burnt bit of oil in the passage...that can happen if you are not using proper steam oil. Personally I keep a small cup and tea bag in the tender for blowing down the boiler...can't waste all that good hot water...pass the cucumber sangys! Great steaming to all in 2005...Happy New Year! TonyO on Vancouver Island
Re: The Lion's First Run
Great Joe! I have an axle pump made by a friend that I have just completed installing. It works like a charm, now I have to learn to adjust the feed valve so that it keeps the boiler filling at the right rate. The outlet on the bottom of the tender also takes a squirt bottle tube which is ideal. There is also a cylinder drain cock. Unfortunately these pumps are not available from my source, but I hope to have the Lion in Diamondhead. Incidentally the Pasadena Rose Parade came through--at least Honda did. There was a beautiful 4-8-4 (Northern) and it was so realistic--steam coming from the cyl drain cocks and a leaky piston rod packing. The best Parade ever-- we are not alone!! Hope some of you watched it. Geoff. Hello, We ran the Lion for the first time this morning. It needs a few more hours to get broken in. Since our three little kids kept us going all day yesterday, we did not uncork the champagne last night. So we had some upon the successful run of the Lion. Works for me! It is quite an interactive loco without an axle pump. It looks at home on a garden line. Happy New Year, Joe
Re: The Vinegar Special
Right Mike, but we here in the colonies hardly know what a tea kettle is! So we might have a problem locating the descaler packet. Joe, I wanted to steam to test a loco for Diamondhead but all it is doing is rain. rain ,rain up here in the redwood belt. I should fill a few of my beer barrels with rain water, filter it and sell it in 5 gallon jugs at a high profit. And yes, I do run in the rain, but it's cold enough to snow too. There are limits to my endurance. Happy Healthy and prosperous New Year to all, full of fire and steam. Don't forget to donate to a relief fund for the Tsunami victims. Geoff. I can't understand why nobody has suggested the stuff which is actually designed for the job - kettle descaler, available from all good hardware shops. Use it as directed on the packet, including the bit about flushing out afterward, and it will do the job a treat. Mike
Re: Vinegar water
Harry, All I can say, their distilled water must contain 80% Tanqueray no wonder it is so restricted!!--wait, I could trade my pure Humboldt rain water for Tanqueray_Good idea?? Geoff Geoff, Don't laugh . . . I was on the Hornby Railways site just now (don't ask why) and under live steam supplies they offer Live steam water at £4.99 per Liter. Yes, you read correctly . . . 4.99UKP!! That's H2O at about $9.68 per liter. But don't worry. . . . they won't sell to just anyone . . . as is stated in the ad . . . Live Steam [water] is only suitable for adult collectors, not for children under 14 years old. Regards, Harry
Re: Re[2]: Aster Lion topping with water
Joe, Thanks for the site, altho the fittings seem too big. I use Ark-Plas fittingsa lot. They are nylon I believe, very inexpensive and close with about a 1/4 turn, good up to 60psi or more. I have one installed my Schools but use them mostly for air connections when testing my locos big and little. They are not designed for connecting when the line is pressurized but work very well where there is no pressure or when connecting where there is a check valve. They only sell them in bulk, so they sent me quite a few gratis! This was several years ago and I have had complete success-- with hot water too. Ark-Plas Products Flippin, AR (501) 453-2343 There are lots of sites on them-I suggest you search Yahoo for Ark-Plas Products and you'll find lots about Ark-Plas for information , now I have to explore myself! --I think Sulphur Springs should carry them! A short hose to could fitted to the tender feed of a Lion and Gary could use his Trackside pump quite effectively--No fiddly screwing - almost as quick as inserting the Squirt bottle tube Geoff Hello, Would something like this work: http://www.snap-tite.com/Quick_Disconnect/general_purpose_poppet_coupling/h_series/index.html For the Lion, the tender inlet would have to be modified. Regards, Joe Hi Gary We use small diameter quick connectors for our gas tanks. These can also be used for water etc. They are a miniature version of the fittings used on compressed air hoses etc. just pull back the outside ring and there you are. If they hold gas pressure they'll hold water pressures in our boilers. Oh, before I sign off: Seasons greetings to the whole gang from Austria. Bert - Bert Edmunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re[2]: Aster Lion topping with water
Joe, The fittings will will work great with a Goodall valve which is just a check valve anyway. The line is not pressurized until the check valve is forced open when the the water is injected under pressure. Geoff You mention the Ark-Plas are not for use when the line is pressurized. I was wondering if connection to a Goodall type valve is technically considered pressurized. The valve has no pressure when connecting, but of course when one begins to pump then pressure is being pumped against through a one way valve. So, can the Ark-Plas connect through a check valve? | Joe, | | Thanks for the site, altho the fittings seem too big. I use Ark-Plas | fittingsa lot. They are nylon I believe, very inexpensive and close | with about a 1/4 turn, good up to 60psi or more. I have one installed | my Schools but use them mostly for air connections when testing my | locos big and little. They are not designed for connecting when the | line is pressurized but work very well where there is no pressure | or when connecting where there is a check valve. They only sell them | in bulk, so they sent me quite a few gratis! This was several years | ago and I have had complete success-- with hot water too. | | Ark-Plas Products Flippin, AR (501) 453-2343
Re[4]: Aster Lion topping with water
Bert,. Thanks,--Guess I didn't look deep enough!!- I'm going back. BTW. If one deals with Aster, they know what M5 is ! Geoff. Geof. There are fittings that get down to M5x05, Sorry 5mm fine thread. Thats quite small. Bert - Bert Edmunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Scale in Mikado Sight Glass
Joe, Me again!-can't you take the top cap off the sight glass fitting and clean the glass with a Q tip? I doubt the ring you describe will do any harm anyway unless it is an indication of the water you are using. Pure distilled is the best. If you feel the water is the problem, you could fire the boiler with vinegar and then drain or syringe out. You are not alone, sight glasses are fiddly to properly line up and seal. Geoff. Hello, I have given my Mikado a thorough cleaning. It has not been run in about a year. While cleaning the cab, I noticed a clear ring (three-quarters round) stuck in the middle of my sight glass. It's not silicone because I used the white stuff. Is this nothing to worry about? I recall it being an ordeal, at least for me, to install that sight glass. Should a run or two take care of such deposits? Regards, Joe
Re: Aster Lion topping with water
Gary, I agree with you and the trackside pump is fine in many instances, I use one but I find that it is not practical for a quick injection to top up a small boiler like that of the Lion. One can put water in with a bottle pump very quickly- a second or two -try that with the trackside pump! In the case of my Darjeeling class B the Aster pump would be a slow awkward process whereas the squirt bottle tops up with a few pumps. while the loco is hardly stopped. Each gadget has it's place. I find I now use the bottle pump nearly all the time--one is 12 years old! I do have one Aster pump grafted into the Aster Schools tender and that is great! The other one sits idle most of the time. BTW, What fitting do you use on the Aster pump hose to connect to your locos? Geoff A syringe is not practical unless you have vice like hands and the syringe and tubing are made of metal. The pump bottle I got from Roundhouse worked for awhile before failing. Aster sells a nice Trackside Pump http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/inventory.htm that will work until I die so I can have my club buddies fight over who gets it because they were still buying plastic pump bottles to save money. Personally the $70.00 or so is well worth the money sent to http://www.sssmodels.com/ or any other dealer. Do you have a Goddall type valve already installed to allow injection of fresh water? I have found any of the live steam suppliers are very helpful in discussing possible solutions and needed supplies. Personally, I have ordered from Southern Steam Trains and Sulphur Springs Steam Models the most. Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor | Is it better to use a syringe, as supplied, or a modified spray bottle | to top up the boiler with water? | | Regards, | Joe |
Re: Thanksgiving
Thankyou Royce of San Berdoo, A happy Thanksgiving to you too and to all Live Steamers. H-MMM- Steamed Turkey perhaps? Geoff. Hope all you turkey lovers have a great day. royce in SB
Re: Aster Berkshire prototype
Hi Keith, I didn't notice, you brought it to my attention. I suppose the proof will be in the pudding, when it is running but I am sure the gauge would reflect a slightly lower pressure and fluctuation as you state, but as Harry noted: I don't see that as worth worrying about, especially when you're doing well to get within 5psi of true reading with the typical miniature steam gauge anyway I usually just glance at the gauge, if it's somewhere in the middle that's OK, but if it's dropping dropping, or rising rising, then I take action--like panic action! Geoff. Hi Jeff, Tony and Geoff, Did anyone beside me notice that the steam gauge is getting it's feed from the turret? I would think that to be a poor spot to measure the boiler pressure, since fluctuations from using the blower, whistle, and what not would give an inconsistant reading at best? I know it has always been considered essential in the larger scales, to extract the steam for the pressure gauge, from it's own dedicated tap on the boiler, as well as having a syphon to insure that live steam did not enter the Bourdon tube, and affect the temper of that important item. There is a kind of syphon there, but still, taking the steam for the guage from the turret is unusual, to say the least! Keith Taylor Jefferson, Maine
Re: Aster Berkshire prototype
Thanks Jeff, Yessir, some levers--you can do the radio control!!--That'll keep you out of mischief for a while, even cause a nervous breakdown? Geoff. Check out: http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/nkp%20berkshire-parts-2.htm Look at all the levers in the photos of the cab! Throttle, blower, reverser, fuel? Cylinder cocks?
Re: Speaking of water pumps . . .
Royce, What I was trying to state (I'm always trying) that if water is in the line from the pump to the boiler, you'll have back pressure on the discharge ball on the first stroke when the bypass is closed. It is always advisable to keep water in the lines and in the pump or the pump may tend to cavitate depending on the design but others (Keith, Harry Jim, Mike etc) have covered that very well for you. The boiler should have a check valve but the water should still remain in the line if the discharge ball in the pump is seating properly. The less the balls have to travel yet pump sufficient water the more effective the pump. Cavitate, a lovely problem with hydraulics, is when air gets in the pump or lines -- the mechanics of hydraulics fails, everything moves properly but nothing happens! Sad experience as always! Interestingly, the mechanical lubricator instructions (another hydraulic pump) on the O.S 3-1/2' Gauge locos I have driven, tell the driver to prime the lines first by hand operating the pump ratchet wheel. There is discharge ball on the pump and a check valve into the engine itself, (two checks) and if this priming isn't done you'll almost always find that the loco has been steaming without oil! Experience again!--er--and again! I note that my larger engines have the same water pump systems as John (Catboat) describes which is most prevalent on these locos. The smaller scales seem to vary all over the place! For example, I have never seen a small loco with the water entering the dead bottom of the boiler like the Aster single. But it works! Some have hand pumps that operate thru the axle or c.h pump body, others have separate lines to the boiler ?? Both have their pros and cons-- Yer takes yer choice. Geoff.
Re: New steamer
Hi Tony, The only reason I can think why Aster did it was to avoid a screw cap on the the top of the boiler resulting in complaints from rivet counters. The KGV lubricator works very well and remember, it is 13 years old, excellent design. Cosmetically the A3 design is great but I bet you the way the oil line feeds the engine, the inside cylinder done gits the oil first and that is where most of it stays. . Heck as long as the outside cylinders get a tad of oil, no problem. Incidentally, condensation does reach the A3 lubricator but I can't determine if it is from the steam inlet valve for priming the line or from the engine. Next run I will fill the line with oil by filling the boiler with compressed air and then run the loco on steam without using the steam admission valve. Then I can determine what condensation reachs the lubricator from the engine WHEW! Thanks for your input, Steam on,Geoff. Hi Geoff, Agree on lubricator. I did not have a problem with it being at the front as per KGV and U1, and passage to cylinders was very short. Wonder if Aster got carried away with the form and fit of the A3 lubricator, and let the long steam pipes of function take care of itself?. Only time and usage will tell. Meanwhile will drain from the top!. Have a great day, Regards. Tony D. - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 1:05 PM Subject: Re: New steamer Hi Tony, The Lubricator on the A3--I 'm not fond of it and I am not aware it has a drain and if it did it would be impossible to reach. Anyway on all my locos I find it easier to draw the water out with a needle syringe--it's much quicker for me. I don't pull out the oil just the water and mixed gunk . BTW, none of the Asters I have owned or currently own have lubricator drains. I do wish that the A3 had the lubricator in the smoke box a la the KGV because on the A3 the steam feed valve to start the flow of oil from the lubricator to the engine has to be used-- and it's a long tube running the length of the boiler before in feeds the engine which means it a long hike for the condensation to go back up the tube and displace the oil. This was done for good reason by Aster however, as it avoids the lubricator being too obvious and any screw heads spoiling fidelity to the prototype.
Re: New steamer
Hi Tony, Glad you are getting together with David and having fun! We had the local annual Oktoberfest at our railway on Sat -- there are only 5 local steamers, all NG--'cept me. We had a ton of fun and the brats' and beer helped, well seasoned with a lot of B.S! No accidents, no fires, just a minor derailment caused by the hand of God.--bloody dull! The Lubricator on the A3--I 'm not fond of it and I am not aware it has a drain and if it did it would be impossible to reach. Anyway on all my locos I find it easier to draw the water out with a needle syringe--it's much quicker for me. I don't pull out the oil just the water and mixed gunk . BTW, none of the Asters I have owned or currently own have lubricator drains. I do wish that the A3 had the lubricator in the smoke box a la the KGV because on the A3 the steam feed valve to start the flow of oil from the lubricator to the engine has to be used-- and it's a long tube running the length of the boiler before in feeds the engine which means it a long hike for the condensation to go back up the tube and displace the oil. This was done for good reason by Aster however, as it avoids the lubricator being too obvious and any screw heads spoiling fidelity to the prototype. Right, I am an Aster fan--I blow hot air too! That's my epistle, You have a great day too! Regards Geoff Hi Geoff, Met with David, the new steamer with the Scotsman in Santa Rosa late last Thursday, and had a good chat on live steam topics etc. Very nice engine in BR dark green colours, which I prefer over the apple green model. Personally I would dispense with the german smoke deflectors, but liked the double blast chimney. Probable because that was the way I saw some of the originals. I plan on stopping by again one evening with a rolling road this coming week, as David has no track. (my own is in sad shape also, no free daytime now). Question-During quick inspection, I could not find the cylinder lubricator drain cock/valve. Instructions not very specific, tell where to fill but no drain info. Thought it would be under the oil filler, but not so. Where be it?. Do you have to draw the lube back out through the filler cap?.al.la KGV/U1. Have a great day, Regards, Tony D.
Re: New steamer
Hi Tony, Many Thanks--I don't know him, I just received a call from him as Jim Pitts gave him my name--he bought the A3 from Jim. He sounds like a nice fellow, hails from Bournemouth. It would be great if you gave him a call--I don't know if he has track or not, but you steam it across his living room floor. Let me know how you fare. He'll learn well from you and you could both have fun while yer away from home. P.S--I just phoned him and he tells me you have contacted him--fantastic--I also warned him about you!! Geoff Hi Geoff, Although living in Livermore, 90+ miles from Santa Rosa. I am working on a project at a company in Petaluma for 3-4 days week, which is only about 10-12 miles from Santa Rosa. I could call on David and arrange to meet one afternoon/evening. Does he have a track to run on locally?. Mine is a little beat up as I have to work!, and not runnable at this time. Would be happy to help and relax for an hour or so. Regards, Tony D. At 07:12 PM 10/1/04 -0700, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Live steam world, I have been contacted by a gentleman in Santa Rosa ( a fellow ex Brit) who has just acquired an Aster BR Flying Scotsman and he has been referred to me by Jim Pitts as a possible assist for his first steaming. However, I live about 200 miles north of Santa Rosa--so is there any steamer close by to Santa Rosa who could have fun with him on the first steaming of this lovely loco. He talks funny like me but is also charming like me. OK. OK- I'll say no more! Name: David Fry tel. 707-539-3714. Thankyou steamers, please let me know. Geoff.
New steamer
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Live steam world, I have been contacted by a gentleman in Santa Rosa ( a fellow ex Brit) who has just acquired an Aster BR Flying Scotsman and he has been referred to me by Jim Pitts as a possible assist for his first steaming. However, I live about 200 miles north of Santa Rosa--so is there any steamer close by to Santa Rosa who could have fun with him on the first steaming of this lovely loco. He talks funny like me but is also charming like me. OK. OK- I'll say no more! Name: David Fry tel. 707-539-3714. Thankyou steamers, please let me know. Geoff.
Re: quiet
Hi Royce of San Berdu, Know whatyer mean. My servers spam filter sometimes put list messages in the junk folder--usually with money signs -HA!--some hope of that! Also other emails that I need, so I peruse the folder carefully. However, It's better than no spam filter at all. Vance, Have fun with your new My Accucraft Mogul--sorry you have to work--but then you'll have the fun later to make up for it! Geoff. Hi Geoff. I recently upgraded my email program to that which comes with Netscape 7.1 or 7.2 (home system). I have found some list messages in the junk folder without them ever being seen by me (in the inbox). I have friends with whom I've corresponded for years asking me why I haven't responded. But I hadn't received any email from them (junk folder or no). So I'm not confident that I'm getting all the emails being sent to me. So if I've not responded to or acknowledged those gracious people who have taken the time to address my priming and other questions, it may be because I never saw the message. And it may be the reason that the list seems quiet to me too. So if anyone out there doesn't get this, let me know. royce in SB Geoff Spenceley wrote: Is anyone out there still alive?--there have been no contributions in a week that I have received. None since I last sent one--er- is that the problem?? The only priming I have seen is when I steam my locos and that gits in me eyes. With the deepest concern Geoff.
Re: Some News: Local report on Garden Railroading w/Steam
You are correct as I recall, Steve. I have seen pics taken in the late 1800s of railways in the garden--not much scenery etc, just tracks in the garden. Models have been made since the introduction of steam engines mostly 4 gauge and up- the gauges varied by sometimes just 1/8th of an inch. No standards in those days. Great coverage by the Mercury! Our own Eureka Times Standard did an article on parts of two page covering our local garden railways a few years ago, it too was accurate (cos' they got the info from me--A-Hem!!). Strangley, I quoted in the Times Standard almost as printed by the Mercury: Garden railroading enjoyed some popularity in the 1920's and 1930's. It was also stated that in Britain the hobby of garden railroading goes back more than a century. I obtained this info from the Large Scale Model Railroad Association. Geoff. Yesterday the San Jose Mercury-News ran a two and a half page story in its Home and Garden section about garden railroading. Interviewed and featured, complete with photos, was Jack Verducci and his own Crystal Springs Railroad. Two other local garden railroads were also featured. Significantly it was reported that Jack ran only livesteam locomotives, while other enthusiasts typically used electric power via track or on-board battery. The full report included plugs for Garden Railways magazine, the Bay Area Garden Railway Society (BAGRS), and LGB. LGB was credited with inspiring the revival of garden railroading in the US, where, it was reported, garden railroading enjoyed some popularity in the 1920's and 1930's. It was also stated that in Britain the hobby of garden railroading goes back more than a century. (Is that correct, Sir Geoff?) All in all, I was impressed with the content and accuracy of the Mercury-News story. It even reported that Jack's locos generated steam using butane or alcohol. Steve
RE: priming
Is anyone out there still alive?--there have been no contributions in a week that I have received. None since I last sent one--er- is that the problem?? The only priming I have seen is when I steam my locos and that gits in me eyes. With the deepest concern Geoff.
Re: priming
Thanks Pete and Bill, I'm relieved! I am a bit surprised about the anti-virus note, it is not from me or my server. However, perhaps it was checked by your server who may provide the NOD32 , is this possible? Best Wishes, Steamers. Geoff. I'm still here, read you load and clear :-) Is the anti-virus note on the bottom of your message from you or something new to the list? Kindest Regards, PeteH - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:38 PM Subject: RE: priming Is anyone out there still alive?--there have been no contributions in a week that I have received. None since I last sent one--er- is that the problem?? The only priming I have seen is when I steam my locos and that gits in me eyes. With the deepest concern Geoff. __ NOD32 1.876 (20040924) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.nod32.com
RE: priming
I sold sandblasting equipment at one time, from the little to the huge and seem to remember a tad. Careful consideration must be given to the nozzle size and air consumption. A 1/16 nozzle uses 4 cfm @ 60PSI -- and 5cfm@ 70psi which a 2hp compressor should handle. However a 3/32 nozzle uses 9CFM and 11cfm respectively and a 1/8 , 17cfm and 19cfm. The consumption really goes up if the pressure is set higher, for example a 3/32 nozzle uses 15cfm @ 100psi. It is possible to have a good sized receiver (tank) which will help to some degree where short blasts can be used and pressure maintained, probably quite adequate for the small pieces we sandblast. If you are buying a small compressor, check the actual delivery ratings, not just the horsepower. A receiver of some kind is always advisable. 30 gallon at least, I would suggest. As with painting, moisture can be a problem, especially in an area of high humidity. An aftercooler and even a dryer is the best but an unrealistic expense for us hobbyists. A small moisture trap should work fine but it must be installed as far from the compressor as is practical and as close to the outlet where the operated equipment is being used. Another trick is to have several coils of copper tube in the line (the compressor side of the trap) as that will give some condensation ( like an aftercooler) for the trap to trap! The ID of the copper line should be large or there will be a pressure drop. One note, pvc pipe should NOT be used, no matter what the pressure rating is as that rating is for liquid and pvc can cause very serious injuries if the pipe is carrying air and should fracture. In my experience, several plants removed all the pvc piping after being advised--and dam, I didn't sell steel or copper piping!! I did get a lot of dirty looks from plant engineers! Geoff. In my former hobby life, I had a blast booth that would hold a Car door. I have seen many media from J.C.Whitney. They had everything from walnut shells to Silicon Carbide. They were my source for blasting materials. Terry -Original Message- From: ODH_REMOTE.GWIA.[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: priming At 10:10 PM 9/18/04 -0600, you wrote: I just picked up a sandblaster at a yard sale, so I'm eager to try that -vance- Vance, I've had a small cannister (aka crappy) sandblaster for years and not long ago acquired a large cabinet unit, and I finally got some real blasting abrasive (vs Home Depot play sand) and it is superior to common sand. Regards, Harry This e-mail is intended for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain privileged, sensitive, or protected health information. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any unauthorized use, disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of this communication is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender via telephone or return e-mail and immediately delete this e-mail.
Re: Florida reconstruction
Gary, These Florida steamers are like us in Californis ( only we are better!). Do you think that when our railway is wrecked by an earthquake we should wait for the next one, and the next and the next--- before we repair the railway! The Floridians think the same about hurricanes, I'm sure., Ask Lunheimer's Assistant! After all, we can't stop steaming unless, unless, unless,--unless (well, I am dam old) Delighted your mighty trestle withstood the Oregon storms--which we get too! With tongue in cheek,. Geoff. Reconstruction? Isn't it time to wait out hurricane season before reconstruction? It is hard to think of any Florida season where so many hurricanes have hit in such a short time. When snow and ice broke of branches that covered my trestle last winter I just waited out the bad weather before cleaning up. I couldn't see over 40' of the 70' long trestle due to branches. I was surprised at the weight of branches that hit without damaging the trestle. Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
Re: 2 down, 1 to go?
Walt, Thanks for the up date, I have been thinking about you and ALL in Florida, especially the other steamers. It's a tragic event and must be frightening indeed so we are very happy that you have survived--and you will. With Lunkheimer at yer side, yer quite safe. However; that is a long time without power--do you have a steam powered generator--or in your case, a hot air generator?? Geoff Hi, First Charlie, close but not a direct hit. We never seemed to have winds over about 80 mph in that one, and those were rain band associated gusts. It moved away quickly and things got back to normal soon. Only without electricity for three and half days. Naples was pretty much back to normal when we started buttoning down for Frances. Again Naples was spared a direct hit, but the pounding we are taking from the bands are getting to be a little much. Wind gusts again up to 80 and some very heavy rain squalls. So far the electric is still on - guess most of the trees that were going to fall, fell during the first one. Have not been able to contact the central Florida steamers yet, widespread power outages up there. The creep, crawl, and stall tactics of Frances is really taking a toll on the entire state. I 95 severed due to washout, and I75 on our side has standing water in places. When Andrew came through a few years back, it was rated a more severe storm for our area, but it went through quickly and did not seem as bothersome as these two have been. Manufactured housing sure took a beating in the last three weeks. Thousands of them are scattered over the landscape. And it will happen again. You can't accommodate affordably priced manufactured homes and hurricane proof building codes! One thing for sure, the steel shutters will stay up for a while. There's another one about a week away headed on the same path! The good news haven't seen snow in 22 years... Keep your steam up! B. W. Lunkenheimer and Associate The SWAMP RR, Naples, FL.
Re: Cyl drain valves
Bert, Many thanks Geoff Geoff Regner locos are now fitted with servo controlled drain cocks and really make a great show on cool days, as well as being functional. www.regner-dampftechnik.de Bert - Bert Edmunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cyl drain valves
Does anyone out there know a source for cylinder drain cocks suitable for 1/32 to 1/19 (16MM) scales. Thanks Geoff.
Re: Off topic: Hamster-Powered Night Light
jeffrey Williams wrote: Live steamers aren't the only maniac tinkerers in the world! http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html Amazing--we need about 4 billion hamsters in California--if the animal rights people don't get there first! Geoff.
Re: Earl's 8% grades
Earl, Good job! --is the lever on the side for manual braking when stopped? I only have a 3% grade for about 80 feet (for slow speed NG-- it's dangerous!) however I have no problems with slowing the loco. The only locos that descend are the Berkley Cricket (it'll do anything!) and the Darjeeling class B. Roundhouse states in their instructions that cut-offs are not practical or words to that effect, so I just use the RC speed control and it works just fine. Tony has a wondeful Duchess that is very prototypical so he can really control the loco. Anyway Tony, why would you steam a Duchess on a grade more than 1-2%?? Geoff I did a lot of praying the first time I ran my K-27 on my friends 4% down grade. Not wanting to kiss $4000 good by in a 3ft ditch I came up brakes good enough to keep it from accelerating on descents. Here's a picture link. http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DaveHottmann/K-27%20Brakes%20001.jpg Dave H. - Original Message - From: tony dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Earl's 8% grades Hi Earl, For emergency slow downs and stops, I reduce Johnson bar cut-off, through neutral and into 10-20% reverse mode on my coal fired Duchess and Garden Railways Elsa (Roundhouse based design). Works fine. Duchess has more refined control. Typically stops a 10 coach (50lbs) train within its own length. Elsa is of the on/off variety and stops within 2'. May not be full prototypical i.e. ability to apply brakes at same time as reducing cut-off, but it works. Do you not have reverse?. Tony D. - Original Message - From: Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 9:02 AM Subject: Earl's 8% grades Hi Earl, You mentioned running live steam on 8% grades using R/C. How to you run down an 8% grade without the train accellerating beyond control? My 6% grade needs brakemen. I have wondered if there is a brake system for live steam engines, rather than a brake van. Either way I suppose some custom construction is required. I haven't seen any commercial brake systems. So what do you use and/or do to control descent? Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
Re: glitching and investment
Vance, You can't convince me on that!! I think Aster are the best in the 1/32 scale. An alcohol or coal fired loco always needs a little more fiddling with the required fan and blower as opposed to butane fired locos. Why do some hobbyists always like to make cracks against Aster--they have done a GREAT job for the hobby over many years and Accucraft is attempting to follow their example and that is good too. Let us all try and be helpful in this hobby and not PICK, PICK!! It gets us nowhere and makes me madder than hell! Geoff. This is a pearl of wisdom. Yet the people who buy Asters seem to have to fiddle with them as much as (or more than?) the Accucraft owners to get a new locomotive running smoothly. Who got the value for their money, I wonder? -vance- If you were here, we'd be running trains by now.
Re: glitching and investment
Thanks Vance, Well said! -and not clumsily!! I must admit that I love the fiddling despite my clumsility! If a new engine or kit performs perfectly, I feel cheated! Is that why I like Aster?? There I go! Geoff. Let us all try and be helpful in this hobby and not PICK, PICK!! It gets us nowhere ... Geoff, that rarely stops most of us... ... and makes me madder than hell! ... but this will stop me in my tracks immediately! You're absolutely right that Aster have earned our highest respect for their contributions to the hobby. (Though, as a 1:20 fan, I might grouse a little about them only producing one loco in my scale over the course of 30 years.) My point, alas clumsily made, was just that even an Aster requires some fiddling when new. I guess that's just the nature of what is one of the few hand-built products you can still buy. We should celebrate that fact, rather than complaining that they still have some human qualities left in them! -vance- If you were here, we'd be running trains by now.
Re: Test Message
Gotcha! Geoff. Hello all I'm having some difficulty responding to messages so I'm sending this message to try to resolve my problem. Jim O'Hearn
Re: ot: happy birthday to us
Congrats Dave! For you're a jolly good fellow For we are jolly good fellows For we are jolly good steamers And so say all of us. Toot, Toot! Geoff. all hands: i didn't look at my calendar earlier this week and missed the fact that wednesday was the fifth birthday of the sslivesteam mailing list. in these five years we have sent more than 13,600 messages and there are currently 271 members participating on the list. thanks to all of you for contributing and helping make this a wonderful resource for me. i guess a few others have benefited as well, but hell, i started the thing because i needed a place to ask questions. to celebrate, i've actually updated the user list at http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam/users/ we'll have cake and beer in the cafeteria around 5. \dmc -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers http://45mm.com/sslivesteam/lists/ ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 21-24, 2005 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
Re: Aristocraft 2-8-2 steamer.
Gordon, I'm with you in many respects! Geoff. Im ambivalent about this ,to me a great deal of the joy in this live steam hobby is Tactile/Visual and by this I mean ,if the full size loco had wood end beams , then the model should have too,and if the smokebox was metal then so should the model!and if the full size one was lit up and fussed over /lubed and prepared by the driver, then thats what I want to do as well..it seems they are marketing it to the switch on and run crowd.no knowledge needed! I think we may hear some grievous stories in the future. Gordon Watson.
Re: Aristocraft 2-8-2 steamer.
Thanks Dan, I, for one, look forward to your reports. We will all learn something from your experiences so BE SURE to keep us posted. When do you receive the loco? Geoff. Fellow Steamers and Learned Skeptics I have thrown my hat into Aristocraft's ring, for the 1,500-1,600 bucks this engine will cost, I'm willing to see how far along modern manufacturing coupled with imagenation, marketing and materials has come. I don't expect miracles, I do expect a look over the edgecome what may. I have heard the negativity, some of it may be warrented. I intend to find out first hand (blistered or not) if Mr. Polk's Mikado is a winner or not. My limited experience is with a pair of Ruby's, not much to be sure. Other than that, many radio controlled models, planes, ships, on and off road cars comprise my building and tinkering backround. Questions about high heat materials? No worries, I've dry steamed my wife's tea pot numerious times and I can still identify the handle and the lid. All kidding aside, I believe that some of the new plastics (aerospace-industrial) can handle the heat and also be molded with enough detail to allow an acceptable piece of work right out of the box. Hey, we'll see and I'll keep you all posted, we have some time before these engines hit the shore. Spring '05? We'll see, how many are still waiting for the Ruby Kit? Let's face it, would'nt it be great if this Mikado is a resonding success? _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Re: R/C Glitching
Paul Gamlin wrote: I love your solution Paul!! Geoff.
Re: R/C Glitching
Paul, I understand!! Fellow Glitching finger Geoff. That was a glitching finger that sent that message
Re: Aristocraft Live Steamer?
Sounds great (not a pun!) but I agree with Tag on the sound, but remember they are trying to attract the sparkies for the bigger market available. It looks very good, Aristocraft should bring a preproduction model to Diamondhead. Hmm, assume it's 1/29 scale, that old Lionel standard gauge? Geoff. On 12/8/04 1:47 pm, PeteH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It appears the king of US plastic locomotives has finally made good on his promise of building a live steamer! For those of you attending the show in Denver - PLEASE take photos and let us know how it looks! From the photo's at this website the following 'appears' to be the case: piston valves, plastic boiler shell (yes you read that correctly!) sound system including steam chuff?!? Butane fired with radio controlled ignition. Sounds interesting!?!?! Check it out here: http://www.aristocraft.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009611 and here: http://www.largescaleonline.com/cgi-bin/library/show.cgi?id=aclivesteam2004 Kindest Regards, PeteH Interesting. Why on earth does it need electronic chuff sounds however - my locomotives do their own chuffin' :-) -- Tag Gorton Editor Garden Rail Atlantic Publishers http://www.atlanticpublishers.com/GR.html Editor 16mm Today http://www.16mmngmodellers.org.uk/
Re: Aristocraft Live Steamer?
Thanks Trot, BTW, I spark too! So do the carbon fibre wicks I have installed--however, I believe it is water in the alcohol. They seem to be very much like fibre glass, so the wear on the wicks will show the difference? That'll take a year or so, or more. Incidentally; long tender you write--for the butane tank and electronics no doubt. Geoff. According to Lewis they are using the shell from the Pacific/Mikado so yes, it will be 1:29th. Also, the photos show the locomotive sitting with a Pacific long Tender... further evidence of it's 'A' scale-ness... Trot, the sparky-familiar, fox... | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ There is a | \_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative. From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sounds great (not a pun!) but I agree with Tag on the sound, but remember they are trying to attract the sparkies for the bigger market available. It looks very good, Aristocraft should bring a preproduction model to Diamondhead. Hmm, assume it's 1/29 scale, that old Lionel standard gauge? Geoff. _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ñ get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Number 294
Yes, Dave, I concur with Debi and Al. THANKYOU and ALL the hard working team that made this great steamup possible. Just fabulous! Even if the heat did melt the sealant on my rear view mirror, I won't sue the group, the City of Sacramento will receive that honor. Now, as far as Debi's comment: -it truly is an amazing and great cross-section of (admittedly somewhat odd...) folks who are drawn to our hobby No one who steams model locos is odd (except me and Tony). Cancel that, we are ALL remarkably odd!--and probably mad too! Geoff. ADave, we'd like to express our heartfelt THANK YOU! to the National Summer Steamup team. We had the best time yet (and were lucky enough to be able to attend for most of all four days). It's always great to get caught up with old friends (and to make new ones) at steam-ups. With so many tracks available this year, I actually was able to steam as much as I wished! (Which was a *lot*.grin ) It's always fun at this event to be able to walk in the door and say I *love* the smell of coal and oil in the morning! I attended many of the presentations, and they were all uniformly great. Thanks much to everyone who worked to make them so (including Dave Cole and Clark Lord who prepped and cared for the technical gear of the presentations).In particular, Dave Hottmann's presentation cleared up several (for me) long-term mysteries on how to interpret observed movement for tuning up timing, and thereby improve run times. I've been having lots of fun ever since tweaking our engines. Also, since we're just getting ready to put in an elevated loop, Clark's presentation on the construction methods and materials of his extensive home installation was appreciated and timely. I was fortunate enough to show up just in time to be part of the 13 shay multi-header (a world record? Don't know, but I'm told definitely a PCLS record). Various folks were calculating the awesome power involved, but it was *observable*: there was at least enough power to pull around a line of 13+ people in their wake for some time...all with *huge* grins! Anyway, thanks to all attendees for making this a great steamup-it truly is an amazing and great cross-section of (admittedly somewhat odd...) folks who are drawn to our hobby. We look forward to the next one! Cheerio, Debi Smith Al Holston
Re: Deionized water (was RH SRRL #24)
Dear Lunenheimer's associate, I use similar stuff, it's all I can find up here in hick land, it's worked for me too. I was worried about ozonation but it doesn't stay in the water i was told by the manufacturer. Geoff. I buy distilled water at Winn Dixie for 69 cents per gallon. According to the label, it is purified by distillation and ozonated. I've been using it for years and have had no problems EXCEPT - the plastic jug is UV sensitive. If you leave a jug out in the sun for a few weeks, it disintegrates when you pick it up Keep your steam up and your water under cover! Mr. Lunkenheimer's associate
Re: New to live steam
Welcome Ken, What Aster loco do you own? There will be many folks who wil be willing to advise and assist in Sacramento so please come. I have several Asters and would be happy to confuse you as as much as anyone! I have a special source of alcohol (no list-not tanqueray in this case!) so I'll let someone else advise you on that. Syringes can be obtained through Sulphur Springs which is an excellent source, they can also provide steam oil. In the event you don't have a fan for raising steam, they can help you on that too, I believe. http://www.sssmodels.com/ There other very qualified steamers closer to SF than me who can offer advice. Congrats on joining our hobby. Geoff. Hi Everyone, I live in San Anselmo,CA (just North of San Francisco) and I'm new to the hobby. I've recently purchased a used alcohol burning Aster engine and have been working on getting the necessary supplies for my first run (steam oil, syringes, bottles, etc.). I was hoping that someone can help me with info on the best alcohol to use and where it can be easily purchased. I'm also thinking of coming to the Summer Steamup in Sacramento for my first run and was wondering if someone could give me a hand in Sacramento to make sure I'm doing things correctly so that I get off to a good start in live steam. Thanks for your help, Ken Bigos
RE: New to live steam
Hello Jonathan, Welcome!! So we meet again!! I'll look forward to seeing you in Sacramento. Did you buy an Aster as we discussed? I'll be steaming the LNER A3. Geoff Hi: I am Jonathan Hodes. I am in the same situation as Ken Bigos. I too will come up to Sacramento for my first run. Any assistance in Sacramento would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jonathan Hodes -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kenbigos Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 12:00 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: New to live steam Hi Everyone, I live in San Anselmo,CA (just North of San Francisco) and I'm new to the hobby. I've recently purchased a used alcohol burning Aster engine and have been working on getting the necessary supplies for my first run (steam oil, syringes, bottles, etc.). I was hoping that someone can help me with info on the best alcohol to use and where it can be easily purchased. I'm also thinking of coming to the Summer Steamup in Sacramento for my first run and was wondering if someone could give me a hand in Sacramento to make sure I'm doing things correctly so that I get off to a good start in live steam. Thanks for your help, Ken Bigos
Re: RH SRRL #24
Chuck, I believe it is best to drain the boiler to be on the safe side as I have been told by cooling system engineers that distilled water gets 'hungry and will eat some metals. However I have left distilled water in copper boilers for up to a year with no apparent ill effects. I do believe it would be advisable to get the water out of the cylinders and the lines by running on air for a couple of minutes. One must close the throttle (regulator), fill the lubricator and run the engine thru the lubricator filler opening. This will make sure the pistons and cylinders will not dry out and the rings get brittle- It may be advisable to use a light oil for this purpose. Now the other experts will move in!! Geoff. Hello All --- A bit of an off-topic question but I want to store a couple of steamers for a few months during some rebuilding. Is it best to drain the dist. water from the boilers or leave some in?? Since it is distilled it is rather intertwhat is the school of thought on this??? Many thanks for your guidance --- Bob - Original Message - From: Chuck Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 3:30 PM Subject: RE: RH SRRL #24 I seem to remember reading the review in Steam in the Garden before I bought mine and the author stated that Roundhouse told him the scale of the #24 was 1:22.5 because they wanted to match the LGB offerings (coaches and freight cars) at the time. Chuck Walters Twin Lakes Railway http://home.twcny.rr.com/twinlakesrw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kevin Strong Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 2:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: RH SRRL #24 Roger Loxley told me it was to 9/16 scale as he felt it would me too big in 1:19. Interesting, considering the size of the 1:20 offerings available now. Makes you appreciate how small those 2' locos really were! Later, K
Re: RH SRRL #24
Sorry Bob--I didn't mean Chuck--however, he could help you too--right Chuck?? I believe it is best to drain the boiler to be on the safe side as I have been told by cooling system engineers that distilled water gets 'hungry and will eat some metals. However I have left distilled water in copper boilers for up to a year with no apparent ill effects. I do believe it would be advisable to get the water out of the cylinders and the lines by running on air for a couple of minutes. One must close the throttle (regulator), fill the lubricator and run the engine thru the lubricator filler opening. This will make sure the pistons and cylinders will not dry out and the rings get brittle- It may be advisable to use a light oil for this purpose. Now the other experts will move in!! Geoff. Hello All --- A bit of an off-topic question but I want to store a couple of steamers for a few months during some rebuilding. Is it best to drain the dist. water from the boilers or leave some in?? Since it is distilled it is rather intertwhat is the school of thought on this??? Many thanks for your guidance --- Bob - Original Message - From: Chuck Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 3:30 PM Subject: RE: RH SRRL #24 I seem to remember reading the review in Steam in the Garden before I bought mine and the author stated that Roundhouse told him the scale of the #24 was 1:22.5 because they wanted to match the LGB offerings (coaches and freight cars) at the time. Chuck Walters Twin Lakes Railway http://home.twcny.rr.com/twinlakesrw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kevin Strong Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 2:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: RH SRRL #24 Roger Loxley told me it was to 9/16 scale as he felt it would me too big in 1:19. Interesting, considering the size of the 1:20 offerings available now. Makes you appreciate how small those 2' locos really were! Later, K
Re: RH SRRL #24
Pete, Great job, thanks for the info. I love the explanation on the colour, I believe, now you mention it, that I have heard about the red, or seen pics as I was lent the Darjeeling Loco Profile at one time. Geoff Geoff, It started life as a chassis for a Roundhouse Pooter, and I lengthened the wheelbase moved the cylinders and built the rest. It has a lengthened G1MRA Project boiler, which I think was a fine piece of design. The boxcar holds the alcohol tank and R/C gear and servos which operate throttle and reverser by somewhat invisible piano wires. The paint colour of red was the original used on these locos according to the Loco Profile which I used to scale it from. I was glad, because blue just doesn't seem like a loco colour to me !! Cheers, Peter. - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: Re: RH SRRL #24 Pete, Who made your Darj--great colour! Geoff.
Re: RH SRRL #24
Pete, Who made your Darj--great colour! Geoff. Here's my Darjeeling in 13.9:1. http://dmcole.com/sslivesteam/darjeeling.jpg Cheers, Peter. - Original Message - From: Mike Chaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: Re: RH SRRL #24 Pete asked:- why can't we have a scale model in 7/8n2(1:13.9) for gauge-1 track! That would be a monster. You can! All you have to do is find a suitable builder and commission one. Mike
RE: Berts fast world
You quit smoking in March, --Congratulations Dan!--Stay the course! I quit many many years ago-- when it was sumtin' like .30 a pack--it was too expensive for me! Think, all those 35 some years ago is why I can now buy an Aster once in a while (at least that is what I tell my bride!) Psst--That's all a fraud-I was only smoking about 7 a day when I quit, so the money saved might buy an Aster catalogue or two!! Puff, Puff, cough ,cough. (That is coal smoke, not tobacco smoke!!) Geoff Gary, that 3.85 for a pack of smokes is closer to a solid 5.00USD in New Jersey. No big breaks by the carton either!Quit back on 03/01/04, after 30plus years.. Can't wait to start buying those steamers! Feeling better already!
Re: Steam in US and England
Hey, Another thing, They must 'time share their garages--there are far fewer in the UK and they are much smaller! I think we should say garden shed machinists. Geoff. At 07:18 PM 6/13/04 -0700, you wrote: It seems another variable is the higher frequency of garage machinists in England than the US. Last time I checked they seemed to be up around 130Mhz. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) Regards, Harry
Re: Just the Ticket links
I noted that, thought it was my ancient netscape!! Geoff. Who is Dicky Boast? What shop? www.justtheticket.tv Hi folks. While the above link works, the internal (to their web page) links don't. Just not done yet ? 'Sup ? royce in SB
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Well, well Young Sam, I'm 32 yrs older than the Hunslet--hell, I'm closer to the 1890 design! Wheezing Groan Geoff, It'sClue, loco was built in 1954 as part of a gift to Sierra Leone (former colony)from the UK, on getting its independence. The basic design IIRC dates to the 1890's?. N#ow that would age me!! Best Sam E Geoff Spenceley wrote: Sam, The prototype two years younger than you? doesn't that make you rather old?? Heck, it must be 50 yrs younger than me!! I sold my two Merlins to Tom Toth, gotta raise money for those expensive Asters as I prefer 1/32 scale. Expensive is right tho', we live in a shack in the woods, our autos are 10 and 16 years old, my wife hasn't had a new dress in 10 years and I dress in the '70s. Soon I will have to distill my own alcohol to run the dam things and use old crankcase oil as steam oil. The children won't talk to us as there aint going to be any inheritance except a bunch of old steam engines. Now there is going to be an Aster LMS Sutherland Duchess next year. I'll have to resort to gigoloism again! Well gotta get the priorities right! Happily steaming in this great hobby, Senile Geoff My first loco was the Merlin Hunslet. I still have it and it still steams. As a member of the WLLR I always thought No 85b a rather elegant little engine when Tom did his model A small irony, the full-sized loco is actually two years younger than me! Best Sam E Geoff Spenceley wrote: Right Sam, It was Aster and then Tom Cooper's Merlins who helped me into live steam. Tom needs a great deal of credit as a pioneer. His Merlin Hunslet was a terrific performer despite some minor defects. I had one for 18 years, some repairs of course but how it steamed! Big boiler, big butane tank, very accurate to the prototype, judging by some photos I had. Geoff. It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden railways in both countries. In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models at reasonable prices. An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their range. Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly when they started to make US prototypes. I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do with why both countrys went down different roads. Sam E Bede McCormack wrote: From: Sam Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country may have put folk off. Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. Bede McCormack Brooklyn, NY
Re: Wicked Wick Wizards
Gary, Carbon fiber is quite different from fiber glass as I understand, there is one site you can visit--I have only glanced at it; http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/1320/ Give it a try. Geoff. Geoff, Experimenting is interesting. Black carbon fibre... Made me think of the black wood stove insulation rope that comes in various thicknesses. Is wood stove door/glass insulation similar to the carbon fibre wick you mention? I should buy some and experiment. The worst that can happen is it doesn't wick alcohol. It wouldn't melt or burn if used for wood stove insulation. I agree that the fiber wicks prevent spills while SS wicks in almost any combination with other material tend to allow spillage if the loco is tipped. Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor Gary, like you, I have tried every type of wick-except ceramic ones made from bricks, I have used asbestos, fiber glass, ceramic wicks, SS mesh and SS mesh rolled with ceramic sheeting or with a ceramic wick core. I still like fiber glass altho I have a mixture in some locos. One advantage of wicks I have found is that they they are not as inclined to blow out or spill. This carbon fiber wicks are a new experiment. With our experience, we should form a company--The Wicked Wick Wizards of Terror Trestle. I paid 10 quid plus postage- the wicks come in sheets fastened together with a thread of some time so they will be very easy to cut to the desired length, rolled and inserted in the holders. Dicky suggests spreading them at the top as they are a bit stiff ( like me!). They look like black fiberglass. Dicky swears by them as they hold up so well and won't char or melt etc. I hope to do a test within a week when I am more mobile. A note, Dicky is very busy and it took some time to get the wicks shipped. Geoff
Re: Just the Ticket links
Thanks Dave, iMac Geoff. At 7:54 AM -0700 6/13/04, Royce wrote: Who is Dicky Boast? What shop? www.justtheticket.tv Hi folks. While the above link works, the internal (to their web page) links don't. Just not done yet ? 'Sup ? royce in SB ah, the pages are there ... there's just some bad microsoft juju at work ... i e-mailed dicky with my preliminary diagnosis (and didn't even tell him to throw away his windows machine and buy a mac -- how restrained of me). \dmc -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers http://45mm.com/sslivesteam/lists/ ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 22-25, 2004 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
Re: Wicks
Harry, Well, I must say that I had to remind Dicky (just once) about the wicks but I did get them with an apology. But you know me , my reminding was done with some distorted humour! Of course, a few wicks are easier to provide than the items you needed I have a suspicion he is just doing too many things. too many projects. Your last comments are surely correct.-- BTW, I obtained a wonderful used copy of GWR in Henley on Thames, incl broad gauge--I'll write to you off-list. Got it from Amazon in the UK Geoff. At 06:01 PM 6/11/04 +0100, you wrote: Who is Dicky Boast? What shop? I've never had any dealings with him, [snip] - Mike I've tried. I've ordered materials, large'ish quantities of tube specifically, and asked for pricing on quantities of boilers, both ready-made and materials kits, for Dee and Project, all of which he advertises, or did once. No beneficial response. By beneficial I mean something beyond I'll be back in touch. My order for 10 meters of boiler tubing in sizes unavailable in the U.S. remains unfilled after over two years and the need I once had for it has now passed. I am assured Dickie is basically a good sort, trying to make ends met as a Ga1 supplier (and we all know how difficult that can be), but is a bit disorganized and spread thin. Regards, Harry
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Right Sam, It was Aster and then Tom Cooper's Merlins who helped me into live steam. Tom needs a great deal of credit as a pioneer. His Merlin Hunslet was a terrific performer despite some minor defects. I had one for 18 years, some repairs of course but how it steamed! Big boiler, big butane tank, very accurate to the prototype, judging by some photos I had. Geoff. It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden railways in both countries. In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models at reasonable prices. An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their range. Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly when they started to make US prototypes. I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do with why both countrys went down different roads. Sam E Bede McCormack wrote: From: Sam Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country may have put folk off. Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. Bede McCormack Brooklyn, NY
Re: Imported steam
Good idea, seems to me. As it turns out I will probably use a Jensen Boiler and parts as the basis of a steam loco. I have powered my Jensen with an electric motor to perform as a steam driven generator for a big Xmas layout I once had that included a ferris wheel, carousel and other carnival stations. Heck, PBS put on their local channel!. Since my Jenson is 110/60 heated, I have considered using it to bench test locos indoors. It would be great to use a steam cleaner too, particularly on coal fired locos. Cheddar--I don't have one of their locos but I do have a boat with a Cheddar engine--impressive performance! Geoff. Not only that but will use Jensens products (if proved usefull) to power some of the beautiful stationary engine kits that are out there, could form the basis of some great garden railway effects. Quit right about the very high end engines, I'll never be in the Mighty Aster Leauge but I certainly enjoy them from afar, thanks Aster and thanks to those who do own and run them. Untill someone decides to take the Chance with producing a modern U.S. made steam loco, I will continue to save my former smoking habits funds for another Ruby, then a Cheddar or two and then finally a .the list goes on. Have a good weekend all, keep 'em steaming. From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Imported steam Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:52:35 -0700 Yes, Vance, A shameful state of affairs indeed which I don't understand. Even when Mike offered to sell his Cricket business, there were no takers. I have a very nice and very simple low priced stationary steam engine made by Jensen in the USA .-- pity they couldn't expand to locos. Basically, we in the US think BIG and that's good, but it tends to discourage the small manufactures of the higher priced hobby items such as steam locos. Perhaps some of us should follow the example of Roundhouse or Aster (and others) who took the challenge. I really admire both their products . I take exception to Mr Crabb's comment about Aster, they are not fiddly, they are beautiful accurate models-- They were, and are, a fantastic contributor to our hobby--one of the first. Certainly the prices are beyond the reach of many of us, but then, haven't you enjoyed watching them at them at steamups? Where would Accuraft be if Aster hadn't opened the door for them--like copycats?? That's good too!--we need competition but I will stay with Aster!--since 1975 when they introduced me to this wonderful hobby. Geoff.The Cricket, I am fortunate enough to own one of the first. Jim, if I recall correctly, the Creekside Baldwin was just a heavily modified Mamod. So that leaves only the Cricket -- a sad and shameful record, in my opinion.regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass http: //g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2740??PS=47575MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ñ FREE download!
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Sam, The prototype two years younger than you? doesn't that make you rather old?? Heck, it must be 50 yrs younger than me!! I sold my two Merlins to Tom Toth, gotta raise money for those expensive Asters as I prefer 1/32 scale. Expensive is right tho', we live in a shack in the woods, our autos are 10 and 16 years old, my wife hasn't had a new dress in 10 years and I dress in the '70s. Soon I will have to distill my own alcohol to run the dam things and use old crankcase oil as steam oil. The children won't talk to us as there aint going to be any inheritance except a bunch of old steam engines. Now there is going to be an Aster LMS Sutherland Duchess next year. I'll have to resort to gigoloism again! Well gotta get the priorities right! Happily steaming in this great hobby, Senile Geoff My first loco was the Merlin Hunslet. I still have it and it still steams. As a member of the WLLR I always thought No 85b a rather elegant little engine when Tom did his model A small irony, the full-sized loco is actually two years younger than me! Best Sam E Geoff Spenceley wrote: Right Sam, It was Aster and then Tom Cooper's Merlins who helped me into live steam. Tom needs a great deal of credit as a pioneer. His Merlin Hunslet was a terrific performer despite some minor defects. I had one for 18 years, some repairs of course but how it steamed! Big boiler, big butane tank, very accurate to the prototype, judging by some photos I had. Geoff. It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden railways in both countries. In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models at reasonable prices. An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their range. Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly when they started to make US prototypes. I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do with why both countrys went down different roads. Sam E Bede McCormack wrote: From: Sam Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country may have put folk off. Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. Bede McCormack Brooklyn, NY
Re: Old Aster Ad (and Prices!)
Mr Steve, The A3, It's on! Indian Railways--I have a number of videos somewhere on Indian railways. The British Empire left India with a wonderful Railway system--and here we are in the woods with no passenger trains within 200 miles!! This is not a wealthy area either! Shucks!! Geoff Sir Geoff, I accept your gracious offer to run your A3 at Sacramento. I would be honored. Your comment about India being the next source of our little steam dragons could very well be true. An acquaintance at work and I were discussing full-scale railroading one day, and he made the comment that India Railways was the largest single employer in the world. Which may indicate the extent to which railroading is part of India's infrastructure. Steve
Re: Wicks
Gary, Dicky Boast?--here he is: Just The Ticket PO Box 1237 Durrington Wilts SP4 8YB. [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.justtheticket.tv Gary, like you, I have tried every type of wick-except ceramic ones made from bricks, I have used asbestos, fiber glass, ceramic wicks, SS mesh and SS mesh rolled with ceramic sheeting or with a ceramic wick core. I still like fiber glass altho I have a mixture in some locos. One advantage of wicks I have found is that they they are not as inclined to blow out or spill. This carbon fiber wicks are a new experiment. With our experience, we should form a company--The Wicked Wick Wizards of Terror Trestle. I paid 10 quid plus postage- the wicks come in sheets fastened together with a thread of some time so they will be very easy to cut to the desired length, rolled and inserted in the holders. Dicky suggests spreading them at the top as they are a bit stiff ( like me!). They look like black fiberglass. Dicky swears by them as they hold up so well and won't char or melt etc. I hope to do a test within a week when I am more mobile. A note, Dicky is very busy and it took some time to get the wicks shipped. Geoff Geoff, Who is Dicky Boast? What shop? My experiment with packing standard wick lengths between the rolled layers of stainless steel fine grid screen is work well so far. I am interested in trying the carbon fiber wicks and do not know where to order. Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
Re: Imported steam
Yes, Vance, A shameful state of affairs indeed which I don't understand. Even when Mike offered to sell his Cricket business, there were no takers. I have a very nice and very simple low priced stationary steam engine made by Jensen in the USA .-- pity they couldn't expand to locos. Basically, we in the US think BIG and that's good, but it tends to discourage the small manufactures of the higher priced hobby items such as steam locos. Perhaps some of us should follow the example of Roundhouse or Aster (and others) who took the challenge. I really admire both their products . I take exception to Mr Crabb's comment about Aster, they are not fiddly, they are beautiful accurate models-- They were, and are, a fantastic contributor to our hobby--one of the first. Certainly the prices are beyond the reach of many of us, but then, haven't you enjoyed watching them at them at steamups? Where would Accuraft be if Aster hadn't opened the door for them--like copycats?? That's good too!--we need competition but I will stay with Aster!--since 1975 when they introduced me to this wonderful hobby. Geoff. The Cricket, I am fortunate enough to own one of the first. Jim, if I recall correctly, the Creekside Baldwin was just a heavily modified Mamod. So that leaves only the Cricket -- a sad and shameful record, in my opinion. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: Paso Robles Track
Robb, Thanks for the info, Looks great, it sure deserved the honor of Tom's Flying Scotsman!! Can I ask what coaches the FS is pulling? Thanks Geoff I am behind on reading my email. On the track damage in transport issue I borrowed from my days in N-trak and use a 12 section of track at the table joints. This keeps the end of the flex track back from the edge. I have had no damage to the end of the track. My track has 2 meter radius curves and set up measures 15' X 25'. Each curve is made up of three pieces 10 wide with an eight foot straight section in the middle that is 2' wide. For transport I bolt two sections track to track. It fits in a full size pickup or small trailer. I can set it up in one hour. http://www.johnsgardenrailway.com/images/Steam-ups/Devries-2003/BAGRS_small.JPG http://www.johnsgardenrailway.com/images/Steam-ups/Devries-2003/TomsFlyingScots man2.JPG This years steamup is fast approaching (June 19). If anyone wants to steam in West Michigan let me know. Robb Gary wrote: Our club had to scrap our portable aluminum track system because of transportation damage that always occurred to track.
Re: Old Aster Ad (and Prices!)
Steve., With all those compliments I am suspicious--no- you can't have my KGV--you can run the A3 if you wish in Sacramento!!. With all that language you are bit of a writer aren't you?--you could make $$S to buy locos!! Anyway, I like your ideas of a time machine and the consequences! I see Gary has been smoking something on his Terror Trestle , (maybe the wood preservative) as he spouts off!. Steam locos from Iraq? they might turn out to accidentally be our Presidents WMDs without all of us going over there to instruct them-like Steve Harry, Walt and other experts! I am not knocking Iraqi craftsmen- I am sure there are some very skilled machininsts. I think India may be the next builder of our little fire beasts and they have a background of Brit locos. In summation I must admit I agree with Daniel McGrath, when he writes: Personaly, I'd rather have the ability to pay for American made Live Steam Engines and have the chance to support U.S. workers with my limited U.S. pay. I know, I must have been huffing butane again. I wish more locos were made in the US. I have the Cricket, and some coaches. I always try and buy American first and agree with Dan's philosophy. We have a terrible trade deficit so buying US products will hopefully help. Hey, we make good stuff too! The carbon wicks finally arrived from Dicky Boast (not available in the US to my knowledge!!) They look great and will be very easy to pack in the holders--I will report and will try and show a piece in Sacramento if I remember!! Geoff. Sir Geoff, the Wise and Wonderful, and Master Dave, Pragmatist and Historian: The dreams are free and readily available. The memories more dearly acquired and retained. I'm not sure a time machine would be a good contraption for me to play around with. If I succeeded to ratchet myself backward in time I'd probably be as inept, bumptious, and bullheaded as I was before about the same things all over again. Maybe a miniature steam locomotive and the attendant dreams are enough of a time machine. I posted the bit about the Reno mostly for the gee whiz reaction to finding the ad and getting a mild chuckle over the listed price. I have no illusions about the relative values of the dollar between 25 years ago and now. In 1980 I was tickled if I was making a few bucks an hour steadily. Thinking about the costs of rent and groceries back then I wonder if those U.S. department of labor gnomes aren't low-balling (is that the right expression?) the real value of $920 in 1980 dollars. That Aster Reno was a pricey locomotive back then. (By 1984, which Dave cites as the base year for the gnomes' calculations, inflation was at a gallop.) Steve
Re: Old Aster Ad (and Prices!)
Steve and Dave, Steve the dreamer--Dave the spoiler! My Aster Schools in 1975 was $500. an Aster DB78 kit in 1978 cost me $1400-- in 1979 I bought a two truck built up 3cyl Shay for $1400. It must be remembered that the Aster locos are much more improved now--so this also increases the price. I like to dream--any time machines out there? Geoff. At 9:47 PM -0700 6/7/04, Steve Shyvers wrote: $920.00, shipping included. just fyi: the cost of living has risen a bit in the last 24 years ... using statistics from the us bureau of labor, it appears that $920 of 1984's dollars is just like $2,080.05 today ... \dmc ps: that number goes to $2,266.82 if you calculate for the san francisco bay area, where steve and i have homes that own us. -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers http://45mm.com/sslivesteam/lists/ ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 22-25, 2004 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
Re: Very Sad News
It is indeed sad news, Sir Art was a great friend and a wonderful member of our fraternity, I find it dificult to come to the realization that he has left us. His Lordship steam apron, a gift from him, will be more treasured than ever I'm a sentimental old fellow and Arthur helped keep me young! Geoff You all will hear soon enough I think but sadly Arthur Walker passed away yesterday. Regards, Harry
Re: Re:
That's great Tony, You can all give us progress reports. As for the spare leak-oops kit well, I have to save for the Duchess. It will be lovely to have cubs for my GNR tho.!! Geoff Hi Geoff, FYI, there are three of us in the Bay Area receiving monthly kit packages from John Barrett for building the coal fired GNR 4-4-2 Atlantic. (per your Maisie). So she may have cubs for company soon!. I have a spare leak. Oops! kit. Tony D. To date At 10:35 AM 5/19/04 -0700, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Hi Keith, Yes, The delightful GNR Atlantic Maisie which sits in my hobby/Emmie (our cat) room, reminds me all the time. In fact I am continuingly vacuuming it as it is growing cat hair. It is not forgotten, I'm getting itchy and it will be on the rails in a week or so (if it aint completely frozen up!) I will report. The GNR 1/32 Stirling needs a turn of the wheels too! How's the 2-1/2 B/L project going? Geoff
Dear Tony
My Dear Tony, I failed to send this!!--so here it is Don't get too excited about the pint--the Duchess delivery is about a year away!!! But you can buy me a pint if I oo and Ah about your coaches. Anyway, I have some of Mr Leech's LMS fine coaches (1/32) on order. If I can't afford the the Duchess (most likely) I'll borrow yours!! Or I can run the coaches with the leaks--I mean teaks! Or I can rent out the teaks-if you procure a Flying Scotsman. I am full of suggestions and open to anything. You also wrote Words of great wisdom and warning from a true sage. Time sharing runs may not be so far off!. I am patiently waiting to run your big Britannia. Even supply my own coal, water and clean the flues afterwards. Regards, Tony D. Now cleaning the flues is a great offer, No coal or water needed but the necessity of lubricant is--Tanqueray works very well. Geoff Hi Jim, No shortage of LMS coaches. Already have rake of 10. Courtesy of a time share with Mr. McDavid via David Leech!. They look great behind my Duchess. For the price of a pint, I think we can come too an arrangement with Geoff at Sacremento. Tony D. At 05:15 PM 5/18/04 +0800, Alison and Jim Gregg. wrote: Re Duchess - I think he will also need a full set of maroon LMS coaches to go with it. Mallards - (aka Ducks Rapidly) Jim Gregg. At 09:23 PM 5/17/04 -0700, you wrote: Hi Geoff, Just re-read your reply. I thought you said the A3 had a full set of 11 leaks, but then saw the T. Could not see you running anything with leaks. All you need now is an Aster Duchess. You placed your order yet?. Drooling from a distance, Tony D.
Re: Re: [was: empty subject lines]
Great advice Vance, I have received sslivesteam messages which my server's spam blocking has put in my spam file and I couldn't understand why--now I do! Thanks. Geoff. Ladies and gentlemen, May I ask you to include a subject with your messages. I don't want to miss any of them, but blank subject lines are a red flag both for spam-blocking programs and for people like me who now receive four times as many junk messages as real ones. I usually delete them without looking, but sometimes I'll catch myself about to trash one with a name I recognize in the From field. So, please help by identifying both yourself and the subject of your messages. It's getting bad enough that I'm thinking of getting a different mail ID. But what a pain in the @^$3 to change all my mail groups, notify all my friends and acquaintances, notify people who link to my web site, etc. etc. Moral: be careful where you write your e-mail address on the wall -- you will certainly pay for it in mountains of spam, spam, spam, spam. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: Re:
Hi Keith, Yes, The delightful GNR Atlantic Maisie which sits in my hobby/Emmie (our cat) room, reminds me all the time. In fact I am continuingly vacuuming it as it is growing cat hair. It is not forgotten, I'm getting itchy and it will be on the rails in a week or so (if it aint completely frozen up!) I will report. The GNR 1/32 Stirling needs a turn of the wheels too! How's the 2-1/2 B/L project going? Geoff Hi Geoff! I hope you don't forget poor Maisie! If you don't run steam locomotives regularly, they forget you love them! (and then they punish you!) Keith Taylor
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Hey Tony and Jim, leave me alone--leak is on me mind!--the leaks are coming from my wallet--and my wife keeps reminding me: Are you runnin' them thar leaks again!! No Duchess ordered yet--that would be a big time leak!! But give me time--I can always borrow yours Tony, and sniff the coal!! Geoff Re Duchess - I think he will also need a full set of maroon LMS coaches to go with it. Mallards - (aka Ducks Rapidly) Jim Gregg. At 09:23 PM 5/17/04 -0700, you wrote: Hi Geoff, Just re-read your reply. I thought you said the A3 had a full set of 11 leaks, but then saw the T. Could not see you running anything with leaks. All you need now is an Aster Duchess. You placed your order yet?. Drooling from a distance, Tony D.
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Hey Tony, I have no argument--except on the alky bit. Butane is good for fire balls too. But remember, to each his own. The 3/4 scale Britannia hauled me and dozens of passengers around the house yesterday and now I am wire brushing the tubes, vacuuming up the ashes from the ashpans. cleaning the smokebox, draining the boiler and cleaning. Luverly! Oh yes, The ALCOHOL fired LNER A3 Flying Scotsman also entertained the visitors, with a full set of 11 teaks! Our own Larry Buerer was there so beware of his submissions!! Cinderella--my favourite pantomine! Steam on! Geoff Hi Geoff, But soot and ashpan cleaning are all the fun of a real steam engine. Butane's only good for camp fire lamps and alcohol for drinking after a good day coal firing!. Even Cinderella got to go to the ball and see the Duchess after cleaning the ashpans. So there is hope .. Now where did I put that flue brush and vacuum cleaner Tony D. At 09:07 PM 5/16/04 -0700, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Yes Jim, You took the bait--lovely! Sooting up the boiler--tell me --I ran the 3/4 Britannia today and now have to clean all the tubes--and smoke box, and the ash pan UGH!! Thanks for your advice anyway--it was good! You are always very helpful on this sslivesteam club. Geoff. Geoff, At risk of taking an offered bait I would not really advise ANY of your suggested firing modifications The resultant sooting up of the boiler innards, you don't want to know about! Jim Gregg. At 01:36 PM 5/15/04 -0700, you wrote: Thanks Tony, Yep, as I said it's complicated and you have made it worse, however youi rescued yourself by the statement So suggest you build em as you like em and enjoy. BTW, I am not THAT old Walt, even if our lathes were powered by belts and donkeys. I am going to mix some coal dust in the alky wicks of another steamer's loco and see if they get some nice smoke while I observe from a distance. Or I may mix some oil with the alcohol--or try kerosone (paraffin) instead of alcohol, or just say to hell with it. How can I drink it that way?? Geoff
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Yes Jim, You took the bait--lovely! Sooting up the boiler--tell me --I ran the 3/4 Britannia today and now have to clean all the tubes--and smoke box, and the ash pan UGH!! Thanks for your advice anyway--it was good! You are always very helpful on this sslivesteam club. Geoff. Geoff, At risk of taking an offered bait I would not really advise ANY of your suggested firing modifications The resultant sooting up of the boiler innards, you don't want to know about! Jim Gregg. At 01:36 PM 5/15/04 -0700, you wrote: Thanks Tony, Yep, as I said it's complicated and you have made it worse, however youi rescued yourself by the statement So suggest you build em as you like em and enjoy. BTW, I am not THAT old Walt, even if our lathes were powered by belts and donkeys. I am going to mix some coal dust in the alky wicks of another steamer's loco and see if they get some nice smoke while I observe from a distance. Or I may mix some oil with the alcohol--or try kerosone (paraffin) instead of alcohol, or just say to hell with it. How can I drink it that way?? Geoff Subject: Re: Head lights on British engines Hi Geoff, Paul, Additional complications to the lamp arrangements are that the Southern Railway,s engines ran a different lamp position coding system than the other regions, particularly on the suburban lines. Lamp arrangements were not standardised until the LMS, LNER, GWR and SR were nationalised under BR (British Railways) in the 50s. Reference Ian Allen British Railway Locomotives Locospotters yearbooks. No matter, all the lamps were primarily dim manually lit oil lamps and not the searchlights of the USA, South African or Indian railways etc. Incidentally, I have a photograph of a British built American design Mikado sitting in Nottingham Victoria station complete with the USA type centrally mounted headlamp, taken while it was on its way to the London Docks for export to the US. Fortuneately small scale live steamers still have some poetic licence left to suit the individual, and as yet do not have to be politically correct. So suggest you build em as you like em and enjoy. Regards, Tony D. At 01:55 PM 5/14/04 -0700, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Paul, Ref Signal lamps on Brit locos. Depends what the loco is doing: There are many variations of headlamp codes, It's complicated. I have a list I can snail mail it to you or try and scan it. Or, if you tell me what duties the tank is going to perform I can probably pick out the closest lamp arrangement for you. For example a Freight , mineral or ballast train stopping at intermediate stations has one lamp above the right buffer (looking from the cab). That might suit you--only one lamp to lose too! Personally, I identify all my locos as express passenger, no matter what they do, that way I don't get anymore befuddled than I already am and these colonists don't know a lamp from a buffer anyway--except Keith Taylor and Harry Wade--and Walt Gray!!
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Thanks Tony, Yep, as I said it's complicated and you have made it worse, however youi rescued yourself by the statement So suggest you build em as you like em and enjoy. BTW, I am not THAT old Walt, even if our lathes were powered by belts and donkeys. I am going to mix some coal dust in the alky wicks of another steamer's loco and see if they get some nice smoke while I observe from a distance. Or I may mix some oil with the alcohol--or try kerosone (paraffin) instead of alcohol, or just say to hell with it. How can I drink it that way?? Geoff Subject: Re: Head lights on British engines Hi Geoff, Paul, Additional complications to the lamp arrangements are that the Southern Railway,s engines ran a different lamp position coding system than the other regions, particularly on the suburban lines. Lamp arrangements were not standardised until the LMS, LNER, GWR and SR were nationalised under BR (British Railways) in the 50s. Reference Ian Allen British Railway Locomotives Locospotters yearbooks. No matter, all the lamps were primarily dim manually lit oil lamps and not the searchlights of the USA, South African or Indian railways etc. Incidentally, I have a photograph of a British built American design Mikado sitting in Nottingham Victoria station complete with the USA type centrally mounted headlamp, taken while it was on its way to the London Docks for export to the US. Fortuneately small scale live steamers still have some poetic licence left to suit the individual, and as yet do not have to be politically correct. So suggest you build em as you like em and enjoy. Regards, Tony D. At 01:55 PM 5/14/04 -0700, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Paul, Ref Signal lamps on Brit locos. Depends what the loco is doing: There are many variations of headlamp codes, It's complicated. I have a list I can snail mail it to you or try and scan it. Or, if you tell me what duties the tank is going to perform I can probably pick out the closest lamp arrangement for you. For example a Freight , mineral or ballast train stopping at intermediate stations has one lamp above the right buffer (looking from the cab). That might suit you--only one lamp to lose too! Personally, I identify all my locos as express passenger, no matter what they do, that way I don't get anymore befuddled than I already am and these colonists don't know a lamp from a buffer anyway--except Keith Taylor and Harry Wade--and Walt Gray!!
Re: Head lights on British engines
Paul, Ref Signal lamps on Brit locos. Depends what the loco is doing: There are many variations of headlamp codes, It's complicated. I have a list I can snail mail it to you or try and scan it. Or, if you tell me what duties the tank is going to perform I can probably pick out the closest lamp arrangement for you. For example a Freight , mineral or ballast train stopping at intermediate stations has one lamp above the right buffer (looking from the cab). That might suit you--only one lamp to lose too! Personally, I identify all my locos as express passenger, no matter what they do, that way I don't get anymore befuddled than I already am and these colonists don't know a lamp from a buffer anyway--except Keith Taylor and Harry Wade--and Walt Gray!! Who am I to know! My source is from a G1MRA publication some years ago--as I recall. Geoff - Original Message - From: Walt Gray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Absolutely. English locomotives did not have headlights. They carried various combinations of signal lamps on the front of the loco to indicate the class of the train i.e. express passenger, stopping goods (freight) etc. Hi Walt, Of course, like everything else, you can never say that is the case 100%. There are exceptions, (although probably not on a tank locomotive) but in a very few specific cases, locomotives like the LMS Royal Scot or the Great Western Railways King George V, these locomotives were brought over to the USA to operate on American railways, where they were required to have headlights, bells and whistles to operate on Class 1 common carrier main lines. At least the GWR King George V continued to utilize that gear after it's return to Britain as memento of it's trip across the Atlantic. And, many British built locomotives were sold and used in South Africa, South America, Cuba and India, where they would also have been equipped with headlights as those countries do not have totally fenced off rights of way. So, yes, in general it is correct to say that British locomotives, at least in Britain, were not equipped with headlights, you cannot say that it is absolutely incorrect for any British locomotive to ever have a headlight. Keith TaylorJefferson, Maine
Re: Computers AOL 9.0
Being a dummy on computers (it pays), I have a private server and I get my emails DIRECT from them, Not thru AOL Netscape or Micro crap, in fact there is no AOL in my iMac, I dumped it all from Netscape. For a $ a month extra my server catches all spam and virii. I use Netscape or Explorer for going on the web only, no emails. Why don't more folks use private servers, are they not available in many areas?? Livin' in the woods aint so bad if yer patient. Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 5/11/2004 3:04:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To send mail direct without HTML simply click on Format after you have clicked Create Mail or Reply. Gary and all, Unfortunately, AOL 9.0 does not offer a plain text format. Everything is HTML, which our list rejects. I had the problem when I switched to AOL 9.0, and I have basically given up posting to the list. It is too much of a hastle to exit AOL, log back on to www.aol.com via my browser, and go back in to email that way. Which, for some reason, does send mail in 'plain text'. Like this message. But what a pain to send it -- and AOL's webmail was playing games an hour ago, so I had to abandon the attempt. Another little AOL 9.0 glitch: it won't add the internet standard at the start of each line copied into a reply, unlike the web version, which did it right (see above!) AOL puts a cute blue margin line next to the text which shows up in AOL, but an external email system converting it to plain text for delivery to a non-AOL destination strips off the blue line, so you can't tell what came from the reply and what is new. I am always completely baffled as to why people use this ISP - it seems to have far more disadvantages than advantages and advertises standard features as their own.maybe it's different in the US. -- Tag Gorton Editor Garden Rail Atlantic Publishers http://www.atlanticpublishers.com/GR.html Editor 16mm Today http://www.16mmngmodellers.org.uk/
Re: Computers AOL 9.0
Well stated Mr semi-topical fox! One thing, AOL steam engines would only give you plumes of advertisements!! Geoff. They are available in most places but you have to look for them. They don't have the advertising bucks to throw away millions of CDs each year! Now... if AOL was giving away steam engines I might change my tune... Nah... Trot, the semi-topical, fox... | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ There is a | \_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative. From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Being a dummy on computers (it pays), I have a private server and I get my emails DIRECT from them, Not thru AOL Netscape or Micro crap, in fact there is no AOL in my iMac, I dumped it all from Netscape. For a $ a month extra my server catches all spam and virii. I use Netscape or Explorer for going on the web only, no emails. Why don't more folks use private servers, are they not available in many areas?? Livin' in the woods aint so bad if yer patient. Geoff _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ñ get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
