Re: Browser no longer supported

[Daniel]

David E. Ross wrote:

On 6/13/11 5:55 PM, Stan wrote:

Robert Kaiser wrote:

MCBastos schrieb:

Interviewed by CNN on 29/05/2011 16:41, Robert Kaiser told the world:

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just
lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.


I sure hope that one of those adjustments is in the installer.


Yes, the installer glitches are why it hasn't shipped as final yet. We
fixed the default theme thing for the first build of RC2 but didn't even
release that one as we found yet another problem with localizations and
optional extensions that we need to do a second build for, and then RC2
should be there and hopefully will be converted to the actual final
release a few days later.

Robert Kaiser


Robert, I think I hear you saying that when I get messages such as "SM
2.1 not supported" that this is a problem to be fixed in a nxt release
of SM. So, I should just be patient.
Is that correct?

I currently have a problem with FxIF- View EDXIF data,  Image Zoom, and
StumbleUpon.

Thanks
Stan

Stan


IF the problem is that the Web server is sniffing for "Firefox" instead
of "Gecko", SeaMonkey 2.1 solves the problem.  It automatically presents
a user agent (UA) string that contains "Firefox".

This feature can be turned off.  On the menu bar, select [Edit>
Preferences>  Advanced>  HTTP Networking] and uncheck the checkbox for
"Advertise Firefox compatibility".



s/solves/gets around

(I think that's how an amendment/substitution is suggested!!)
--
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[David E. Ross]

On 6/13/11 5:55 PM, Stan wrote:
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> MCBastos schrieb:
>>> Interviewed by CNN on 29/05/2011 16:41, Robert Kaiser told the world:
 Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:
> For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just
> lie to
> them and spoof FF?

 That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
 it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.
>>>
>>> I sure hope that one of those adjustments is in the installer.
>>
>> Yes, the installer glitches are why it hasn't shipped as final yet. We
>> fixed the default theme thing for the first build of RC2 but didn't even
>> release that one as we found yet another problem with localizations and
>> optional extensions that we need to do a second build for, and then RC2
>> should be there and hopefully will be converted to the actual final
>> release a few days later.
>>
>> Robert Kaiser
>>
> Robert, I think I hear you saying that when I get messages such as "SM 
> 2.1 not supported" that this is a problem to be fixed in a nxt release 
> of SM. So, I should just be patient.
> Is that correct?
> 
> I currently have a problem with FxIF- View EDXIF data,  Image Zoom, and 
> StumbleUpon.
> 
> Thanks
> Stan
> 
> Stan

IF the problem is that the Web server is sniffing for "Firefox" instead
of "Gecko", SeaMonkey 2.1 solves the problem.  It automatically presents
a user agent (UA) string that contains "Firefox".

This feature can be turned off.  On the menu bar, select [Edit >
Preferences > Advanced > HTTP Networking] and uncheck the checkbox for
"Advertise Firefox compatibility".

-- 

David E. Ross


On occasion, I might filter and ignore all newsgroup messages
posted through GoogleGroups via Google's G2/1.0 user agent
because of spam from that source.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Stan]

Robert Kaiser wrote:

MCBastos schrieb:

Interviewed by CNN on 29/05/2011 16:41, Robert Kaiser told the world:

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just
lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.


I sure hope that one of those adjustments is in the installer.


Yes, the installer glitches are why it hasn't shipped as final yet. We
fixed the default theme thing for the first build of RC2 but didn't even
release that one as we found yet another problem with localizations and
optional extensions that we need to do a second build for, and then RC2
should be there and hopefully will be converted to the actual final
release a few days later.

Robert Kaiser

Robert, I think I hear you saying that when I get messages such as "SM 
2.1 not supported" that this is a problem to be fixed in a nxt release 
of SM. So, I should just be patient.

Is that correct?

I currently have a problem with FxIF- View EDXIF data,  Image Zoom, and 
StumbleUpon.


Thanks
Stan

Stan
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Daniel]

Jens Hatlak wrote:

Daniel wrote:

as Firefox 4 and SeaMonkey 2 use the same file format for bookmarks,
so there is no need to import the file, just copy one over the
other.


Not exactly true. FF4 and SM 2.1 use the same file format for bookmarks
(places.sqlite). The same file exists for SM 2.0, too, but only contains
the browsing history there. SM 2.0 uses bookmarks.html for bookmarks,
which can be imported into both SM 2.1 and FF4 (from the Bookmarks
Manager / Library).

HTH

Jens



Just as well I told John not to quote me, then!!

Thanks Jens.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jens Hatlak]

Daniel wrote:

as Firefox 4 and SeaMonkey 2 use the same file format for bookmarks,
so there is no need to import the file, just copy one over the
other.


Not exactly true. FF4 and SM 2.1 use the same file format for bookmarks 
(places.sqlite). The same file exists for SM 2.0, too, but only contains 
the browsing history there. SM 2.0 uses bookmarks.html for bookmarks, 
which can be imported into both SM 2.1 and FF4 (from the Bookmarks 
Manager / Library).


HTH

Jens

--
Jens Hatlak 
SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker 
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Daniel]

JohnW-Mpls wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 03:11:40 +0200, Robert Kaiser  wrote:


Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

Keep in mind that the current squabbling doesn't serve the end users,
but resolving it will.


Have you actually looked into SeaMonkey 2.1? It sends "Firefox/4.0.1" in
its default settings and therefore solves the problem nicely in one of
the ways that fit your descriptions.

Robert Kaiser



Based upon the above, I updated to 2.1 and it was no better than 2.0.13 in
getting a local ad to show all pages - I still need to use IE or FF.

Note that updating to 2.1 did not copy my current bookmarks - changes I made
in the last two days were not included.   Lots of system rebooting in the
meantime so 2.1's action does not make sense.

BTW, FF 4's installation routine will not pick up bookmarks from SM - it's
IE or nothing! I"d expect an Other choice but that's probably  a
marketing decision.

--
  JohnW-Mpls


John, don't quote me but, as Firefox 4 and SeaMonkey 2 use the same file 
format for bookmarks, so there is no need to import the file, just copy 
one over the other.


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Re: Browser no longer supported

[JohnW-Mpls]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 03:11:40 +0200, Robert Kaiser  wrote:

>Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:
>> Keep in mind that the current squabbling doesn't serve the end users,
>> but resolving it will.
>
>Have you actually looked into SeaMonkey 2.1? It sends "Firefox/4.0.1" in 
>its default settings and therefore solves the problem nicely in one of 
>the ways that fit your descriptions.
>
>Robert Kaiser


Based upon the above, I updated to 2.1 and it was no better than 2.0.13 in
getting a local ad to show all pages - I still need to use IE or FF.

Note that updating to 2.1 did not copy my current bookmarks - changes I made
in the last two days were not included.   Lots of system rebooting in the
meantime so 2.1's action does not make sense.

BTW, FF 4's installation routine will not pick up bookmarks from SM - it's
IE or nothing! I"d expect an Other choice but that's probably  a
marketing decision.

--  
 JohnW-Mpls
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[David Wilkinson]

MCBastos wrote:

Yes.  There is Camino, K-Meleon and Kazehakase, at least, which seem
to be still active (although not always in close parity to Firefox).
Galeon seems to have been abandoned, and Flock is no more.


There is also the Kylo browser, which is optimized for use on a TV screen.

[It has a cool accessory, the Loop Pointer, which gives you mouse capability 
from your couch.]


--
David Wilkinson
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[MCBastos]

Interviewed by CNN on 31/05/2011 22:24, Paul B. Gallagher told the world:

> At that point, will all Gecko browsers announce themselves as "Firefox," 
> or will there still be some outstanding? (I couldn't list them from 
> memory -- are there others besides Firefox proper and SeaMonkey?)

Yes.  There is Camino, K-Meleon and Kazehakase, at least, which seem
to be still active (although not always in close parity to Firefox).
Galeon seems to have been abandoned, and Flock is no more.

-- 
MCBastos

This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized
use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.

-=-=-
... Sent from my Voyager space probe.
*Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.0.14 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[PhillipJones]

David E. Ross wrote:

On 5/31/11 11:18 AM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:

Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 5/29/2011 4:25 PM, W3BNR wrote:


Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser.


We (SeaMonkey Council) fully agree with you. That said, our users are
higher priority. KaiRo (longtime project member, and Council member) has
proposed, years ago, a theoretical solution to the issue (back when
Firefox was not even recognized by websites, fwiw), the problem is we
don't have the backend gecko support atm, and it would be A LOT of work
to try and implement on our own.

If the support is ever there, we'll gladly use it though.


May I naively suggest the following course:
In effect build agent switcher into SM. First let SM identify itself
correctly. This lets the bean counters get SM into their usage totals.
But if the host objects then let the user be able, on the fly, to switch
to one of a select list of fake ids, (which would also carry
a token to identify it as an SM alias/fake), and try the host again.
(Perhaps the first part of going through the list of fake ids, might
even be scripted and automatic).
I envision the following scenario:
   - User tries to enter/link-to/ a site
   - Site rejects with a message
   - User presses a 'try faking it' button
   - SM switches to script of sending fake UAs till success of utter
failure.
Elaborations are obvious: Record UAs tried at the given host and
the results. Report these as incidents to SM central for actions
to try to convince the host owners to correct their behaviour.
Record successes (host identifier&  successful UA) to short-cut
trial and error when going again to that host. i.e. build in
memory



Such a scheme would be very nice.  However, I think it might be
impossible to implement.

Incorrect sniffing that looks for "SeaMonkey" instead of "Gecko" does
not usually result in an outright rejection of the browser.  Instead,
the Web page might be rendered incorrectly because non-standard HTML was
sent.  Alternatively, you get a valid Web page that states something
such as

This operation is not currently available.
Please contact your System Administrator and try again later.
We are sorry for this interruption in your service.

or something such as

XML Parsing Error: mismatched tag. Expected:.
Location: http://store.spruebrothers.com/recent-arrivals-c373.aspx
Line Number 60, Column 3:
--^

or a request (demand?) that you install the latest version of Flash even
though you already installed the latest version.  Even a human may have
trouble recognizing that what he or she sees in the browser window is
the result of invalid sniffing.  Think of the software logic to make
such a recognition.

Then there is a cookie problem.  Many Web sites that sniff for the UA
string set a session-only cookie indicating what user agent you are
using.  A session-only cookie persists not merely as long as you are
viewing the Web site; no, it lasts until you terminate your browser.
Having a cookie that says "This is not IE or Firefox or Chrome" often
overrides any subsequent change to your UA string.  (Note that I omitted
Safari and Opera.  Many sniffing Web sites fail to recognize those
browsers.)  You must delete the cookie when you change the UA string.
You must first determine a cookie was set and which cookie if more than
one was set, being careful not to delete unrelated cookies.

Are you beginning to see how complicated this can be?  :)

Just come up with some code that will cause the Sniffer code not to work 
or bring down the site. Then the web master would have to remove it in 
order have website to work.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

David E. Ross wrote:


or a request (demand?) that you install the latest version of Flash
even though you already installed the latest version.  Even a human
may have trouble recognizing that what he or she sees in the browser
window is the result of invalid sniffing.  Think of the software
logic to make such a recognition.


You're right, but I can generally tell when the website says something 
incredibly stupid like "We only support Flash 9 or higher, but you have 
version 6, so please upgrade" when I know for a fact I have version 10. 
As a translator I know that really means "you didn't install the ActiveX 
control for Internet Exploiter, so we won't play with you."



Then there is a cookie problem.  Many Web sites that sniff for the
UA string set a session-only cookie indicating what user agent you
are using.  A session-only cookie persists not merely as long as you
are viewing the Web site; no, it lasts until you terminate your
browser. Having a cookie that says "This is not IE or Firefox or
Chrome" often overrides any subsequent change to your UA string.
(Note that I omitted Safari and Opera.  Many sniffing Web sites fail
to recognize those browsers.)  You must delete the cookie when you
change the UA string. You must first determine a cookie was set and
which cookie if more than one was set, being careful not to delete
unrelated cookies.



I'm generally disrespectful of cookies, and if I happen to delete too 
many too fast, oh well, $#!+ happens. When I return to a site that set 
one that I deleted by mistake, it'll set another. The only ones I have 
to be careful of are login cookies and shopping carts, and I don't need 
those for more than a few minutes in most cases. I routinely see far 
more cookies than I need and wipe them out, and I have a huge list of 
sites that aren't allowed to set cookies because SM's current cookie 
manager is not nearly as good as it used to be. I just looked and 
virtually every site I'd visited in the past few hours had set several 
cookies. Of 84 cookies, only three were of any use to me, and the rest 
were from a bunch of busybodies tracking my every move.




Are you beginning to see how complicated this can be?  :)


Only if you want it to be...

--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Robert Kaiser wrote:


Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:


Keep in mind that the current squabbling doesn't serve the end
users, but resolving it will.


Have you actually looked into SeaMonkey 2.1? It sends "Firefox/4.0.1"
in its default settings and therefore solves the problem nicely in
one of the ways that fit your descriptions.


Sure, I'm aware of that. I'm waiting for the final release; my personal 
taste is not to be a first adopter or beta tester of new software.


At that point, will all Gecko browsers announce themselves as "Firefox," 
or will there still be some outstanding? (I couldn't list them from 
memory -- are there others besides Firefox proper and SeaMonkey?)


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Robert Kaiser]

sean bean schrieb:

google's corporate motto is "don't be evil"

but this is now opposite land...


Well, things always depend on what you define as "evil", and they fall 
onto one or the other side depending on what your definition is. I 
prefer not to entirely throw anyone at either side, as everyone and 
every organization/company has potential to go in either way and usually 
exercises some of those potentials to either side. In the end, where 
they fall for a specific case lies in the eye of the beholder.


Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never 
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the 
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Robert Kaiser]

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

Keep in mind that the current squabbling doesn't serve the end users,
but resolving it will.


Have you actually looked into SeaMonkey 2.1? It sends "Firefox/4.0.1" in 
its default settings and therefore solves the problem nicely in one of 
the ways that fit your descriptions.


Robert Kaiser


--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never 
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the 
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[David E. Ross]

On 5/31/11 11:18 AM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:
> Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
>> On 5/29/2011 4:25 PM, W3BNR wrote:
>>>
>>> Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser.
>>
>> We (SeaMonkey Council) fully agree with you. That said, our users are
>> higher priority. KaiRo (longtime project member, and Council member) has
>> proposed, years ago, a theoretical solution to the issue (back when
>> Firefox was not even recognized by websites, fwiw), the problem is we
>> don't have the backend gecko support atm, and it would be A LOT of work
>> to try and implement on our own.
>>
>> If the support is ever there, we'll gladly use it though.
>>
> May I naively suggest the following course:
> In effect build agent switcher into SM. First let SM identify itself
> correctly. This lets the bean counters get SM into their usage totals. 
> But if the host objects then let the user be able, on the fly, to switch 
> to one of a select list of fake ids, (which would also carry
> a token to identify it as an SM alias/fake), and try the host again.
> (Perhaps the first part of going through the list of fake ids, might
> even be scripted and automatic).
> I envision the following scenario:
>   - User tries to enter/link-to/ a site
>   - Site rejects with a message
>   - User presses a 'try faking it' button
>   - SM switches to script of sending fake UAs till success of utter
>failure.
> Elaborations are obvious: Record UAs tried at the given host and
> the results. Report these as incidents to SM central for actions
> to try to convince the host owners to correct their behaviour.
> Record successes (host identifier & successful UA) to short-cut
> trial and error when going again to that host. i.e. build in
> memory
> 

Such a scheme would be very nice.  However, I think it might be
impossible to implement.

Incorrect sniffing that looks for "SeaMonkey" instead of "Gecko" does
not usually result in an outright rejection of the browser.  Instead,
the Web page might be rendered incorrectly because non-standard HTML was
sent.  Alternatively, you get a valid Web page that states something
such as
> This operation is not currently available.
> Please contact your System Administrator and try again later.
> We are sorry for this interruption in your service. 
or something such as
> XML Parsing Error: mismatched tag. Expected: .
> Location: http://store.spruebrothers.com/recent-arrivals-c373.aspx
> Line Number 60, Column 3:
> --^ 
or a request (demand?) that you install the latest version of Flash even
though you already installed the latest version.  Even a human may have
trouble recognizing that what he or she sees in the browser window is
the result of invalid sniffing.  Think of the software logic to make
such a recognition.

Then there is a cookie problem.  Many Web sites that sniff for the UA
string set a session-only cookie indicating what user agent you are
using.  A session-only cookie persists not merely as long as you are
viewing the Web site; no, it lasts until you terminate your browser.
Having a cookie that says "This is not IE or Firefox or Chrome" often
overrides any subsequent change to your UA string.  (Note that I omitted
Safari and Opera.  Many sniffing Web sites fail to recognize those
browsers.)  You must delete the cookie when you change the UA string.
You must first determine a cookie was set and which cookie if more than
one was set, being careful not to delete unrelated cookies.

Are you beginning to see how complicated this can be?  :)

-- 

David E. Ross


On occasion, I might filter and ignore all newsgroup messages
posted through GoogleGroups via Google's G2/1.0 user agent
because of spam from that source.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Rostyslaw Lewyckyj]

Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 5/29/2011 4:25 PM, W3BNR wrote:


Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser.


We (SeaMonkey Council) fully agree with you. That said, our users are
higher priority. KaiRo (longtime project member, and Council member) has
proposed, years ago, a theoretical solution to the issue (back when
Firefox was not even recognized by websites, fwiw), the problem is we
don't have the backend gecko support atm, and it would be A LOT of work
to try and implement on our own.

If the support is ever there, we'll gladly use it though.


May I naively suggest the following course:
In effect build agent switcher into SM. First let SM identify itself
correctly. This lets the bean counters get SM into their usage totals. 
But if the host objects then let the user be able, on the fly, to switch 
to one of a select list of fake ids, (which would also carry

a token to identify it as an SM alias/fake), and try the host again.
(Perhaps the first part of going through the list of fake ids, might
even be scripted and automatic).
I envision the following scenario:
 - User tries to enter/link-to/ a site
 - Site rejects with a message
 - User presses a 'try faking it' button
 - SM switches to script of sending fake UAs till success of utter
  failure.
Elaborations are obvious: Record UAs tried at the given host and
the results. Report these as incidents to SM central for actions
to try to convince the host owners to correct their behaviour.
Record successes (host identifier & successful UA) to short-cut
trial and error when going again to that host. i.e. build in
memory

--
Rostyk

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:


On 5/29/2011 4:25 PM, W3BNR wrote:


Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser.


We (SeaMonkey Council) fully agree with you. That said, our users
are higher priority. KaiRo (longtime project member, and Council
member) has proposed, years ago, a theoretical solution to the issue
(back when Firefox was not even recognized by websites, fwiw), the
problem is we don't have the backend gecko support atm, and it would
be A LOT of work to try and implement on our own.

If the support is ever there, we'll gladly use it though.


FWIW, it would be a notational equivalent if all Gecko browsers 
identified themselves as "Firefox" instead of "Gecko." Then the websites 
that sniff for "Firefox" would all get it right.


I hate to "punish" the ones that have been getting it right all along by 
forcing them to adjust, but if we have to choose between hoping the 
stupid webmasters will adjust and hoping the smart webmasters will 
adjust, the smart money will be on the smart webmasters.


Keep in mind that the current squabbling doesn't serve the end users, 
but resolving it will. It hardly matters what word we use in the UA 
string, as long as it's standardized. We could just as easily call the 
rendering engine "Toaster," as long as everyone agrees on it.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[JeffM]

>JeffM wrote:
>>The truth is much simpler:
>> 1) Google has embraced Web 2.0.
>> 2) Google employees don't know the *basics* of what they are doing.
>>
sean bean wrote:
>google's corporate motto is "don't be evil"
>but this is now opposite land...
>
Web 2.0 is evil??
...or have you wandered off-topic
without leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for anyone to follow?

I'll grant you that Web 2.0 is resource-intensive
and it is often unnecessary to e.g. use JavaScript
but you need to give some clue what you're talking about..

>they are 2011's version of 1984's ministry of truth...
>
You are going to have to be a lot more specific than that.
I also suggest you see a psychiatrist about your paranoia.

Don't want them to track you?  Block their cookies.
Done.  Hand-waving averted.

For my Google stuff that needs a cookie,
I simply use a separate profile.

>i refuse to use them,
>scroogle is my search engine of choice,
>
Heh.  Disingenuous much?
You *use* Google; you just go thru a proxy.

I'm crazy about Google's Cached pages.
You can't get those with going thru Google's site.
If they want my (dynamic) IP address, they can have it.

>i've opted out of analytics,
>
Y'mean there is someone somewhere who allows that junk on his box?

>don't use google docs or gmail,
>
Gmail is pretty awesome.
If I did collaborative document stuff, I'd probably use GDocs.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[JeffM]

MCBastos wrote:
>Interviewed by CNN on 30/05/2011 06:49, Paul B. Gallagher told the world:
>
That's cute.  8-)

>>if enough sites were compliant, M$ would have to shape up.
>>
>Actually, I understand that IE9 is reasonably compliant
>
The phrase you seek is *inching upward*
(after YEARS of hobbling the Web).

>the gap has been closing since IE7.
>
...mostly at a snail's pace.
Internet Exploder didn't pass Acid TWO until IE EIGHT fercrisesake.
IE7 and IE8 sucked at Acid3; IE9 was a quantum leap there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid3#Desktop_browsers_2

>(not 100%, but near enough for most purposes),
>
Grudgingly complying because they were facing death.
The only place I'll give M$ any points is in the
each-tab-is-a-separate-process thing.
(Ancient) Mozilla is still playing catch-up there;
having everything freeze when one tab craps out really sucks.

>So it appears that they ARE shaping up.
>
You left out the phrase "dragged kicking and screaming".
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Justin Wood (Callek)]

On 5/29/2011 4:25 PM, W3BNR wrote:


Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser.


We (SeaMonkey Council) fully agree with you. That said, our users are 
higher priority.  KaiRo (longtime project member, and Council member) 
has proposed, years ago, a theoretical solution to the issue (back when 
Firefox was not even recognized by websites, fwiw), the problem is we 
don't have the backend gecko support atm, and it would be A LOT of work 
to try and implement on our own.


If the support is ever there, we'll gladly use it though.

--
~Justin Wood
SeaMonkey Release Engineer, SeaMonkey Council.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[sean bean]

JeffM wrote:

sean bean wrote:

Google is likely telling you your browser is not supported because
Google wants to set all sorts of cookies and location awareness data
in your browser,


Nope.


which SeaMonkey generally doesn't allow by default


Nope.

While I laud your suspicion of megacorporations,
your accusations about Google are way off the mark.
The truth is much simpler:
1) Google has embraced Web 2.0.
2) Google employees don't know the *basics* of what they are doing.

Some time back, Google announced that
their efforts going forward would require users to have
a browser with good support for HTML 4, CSS, and JavaScript.[1]
Most of the headlines of that time
specifically mention Internet Exploder 6.

Google is sniffing for browsers
and blackballing those it deems unworthy of accessing its pages.
Again, sniffing is a stupid practice;
using it *incorrectly* is monumentally stupid.

It is obvious that the Google employees who implemented this
are unaware that the **proper** way to sniff is to
look for **the HTML rendering engine** in the user agent string
(Trident, WebKit, Gecko, Presto, etc.).
They are instead showing their ignorance by looking for browser names.
Again, this is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.


i avoid google as much as humanly possible...


Mostly, I adore Google.
Mostly, they "get it" and mostly they get it right
(considering all the SEO asswipes who try to game the system).

This instance is a failure of management to oversee workers;
quite possibly a failure of managers
to understand the job better than their underlings.
.
.
[1] As I mentioned,
to just do searches, you can turn off most of that stupid shit.[2][3]
OTOH, Google Docs, viewing PDFs as Web pages, etc.
requires the bells and whistles.

[2] When I recently used a Web terminal at the library,
I didn't remember any of Google's numerical IP addresses
and couldn't access the Google preferences either.
What an irritating experience.
Using Windoze (with right-click totally disabled by the "experts")
gave me a rash as well.
Using Internet Exploder also sucked.
(M$ tried to imitate Mozilla's tabs--and failed.)

[3] I haven't yet found a Userscript that
gets rid of the wasted space on results pages
down the left side of my narrow screen.>8-|


google's corporate motto is "don't be evil"

but this is now opposite land...

they are 2011's version of 1984's ministry of truth...

i refuse to use them, scroogle is my search engine of choice, i've opted 
out of analytics, don't use google docs or gmail, i don't store anything 
in the cloud and i've never ever used my real name anywhere on the 
internet since going online in 1994..


sean
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[JeffM]

>JeffM wrote:
>>Google is sniffing for browsers
>>and blackballing those it deems unworthy of accessing its pages.
>>Again, sniffing is a stupid practice;
>>using it *incorrectly* is monumentally stupid.
>>
>>It is obvious that the Google employees who implemented this
>>are unaware that the **proper** way to sniff is to
>>look for **the HTML rendering engine** in the user agent string
>>(Trident, WebKit, Gecko, Presto, etc.).
>>They are instead showing their ignorance by looking for browser names.
>>Again, this is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.
>>
Ray_Net wrote:
>Google(and some others also) don't care about your position
>- so - no way for a change ...
>
"My position" is standard practice
--for those who don't have their heads up their asses.

As previously mentioned, you can contact the site/developer
and discover exactly how far up there they have that.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Ray_Net]

JeffM wrote:


Google is sniffing for browsers
and blackballing those it deems unworthy of accessing its pages.
Again, sniffing is a stupid practice;
using it *incorrectly* is monumentally stupid.

It is obvious that the Google employees who implemented this
are unaware that the **proper** way to sniff is to
look for **the HTML rendering engine** in the user agent string
(Trident, WebKit, Gecko, Presto, etc.).
They are instead showing their ignorance by looking for browser names.
Again, this is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.




Google(and some others also) don't care about your position - so - no 
way for a change ...

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[JeffM]

sean bean wrote:
>Google is likely telling you your browser is not supported because
>Google wants to set all sorts of cookies and location awareness data
>in your browser,
>
Nope.

>which SeaMonkey generally doesn't allow by default
>
Nope.

While I laud your suspicion of megacorporations,
your accusations about Google are way off the mark.
The truth is much simpler:
1) Google has embraced Web 2.0.
2) Google employees don't know the *basics* of what they are doing.

Some time back, Google announced that
their efforts going forward would require users to have
a browser with good support for HTML 4, CSS, and JavaScript.[1]
Most of the headlines of that time
specifically mention Internet Exploder 6.

Google is sniffing for browsers
and blackballing those it deems unworthy of accessing its pages.
Again, sniffing is a stupid practice;
using it *incorrectly* is monumentally stupid.

It is obvious that the Google employees who implemented this
are unaware that the **proper** way to sniff is to
look for **the HTML rendering engine** in the user agent string
(Trident, WebKit, Gecko, Presto, etc.).
They are instead showing their ignorance by looking for browser names.
Again, this is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

>i avoid google as much as humanly possible...
>
Mostly, I adore Google.
Mostly, they "get it" and mostly they get it right
(considering all the SEO asswipes who try to game the system).

This instance is a failure of management to oversee workers;
quite possibly a failure of managers
to understand the job better than their underlings.
.
.
[1] As I mentioned,
to just do searches, you can turn off most of that stupid shit.[2][3]
OTOH, Google Docs, viewing PDFs as Web pages, etc.
requires the bells and whistles.

[2] When I recently used a Web terminal at the library,
I didn't remember any of Google's numerical IP addresses
and couldn't access the Google preferences either.
What an irritating experience.
Using Windoze (with right-click totally disabled by the "experts")
gave me a rash as well.
Using Internet Exploder also sucked.
(M$ tried to imitate Mozilla's tabs--and failed.)

[3] I haven't yet found a Userscript that
gets rid of the wasted space on results pages
down the left side of my narrow screen.  >8-|
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[PhillipJones]

Jan_Galt wrote:

JeffM   wrote :


Jane_Galt wrote:

I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported.


When you encounter idiots who don't know how to build a website
properly,
you have options:
1) Avoid the idiots permanently
2) Complain to the idiots that they should learn how to do their jobs.
3) Spoof your browser's user agent.

As has been said, the newest version of SeaMonkey does #3 by default.
SeaMonkey users who *want* their browser to be counted accurately
think that is a BAD idea
and they will spoof **only** when absolutely necessary
(allowing non-idiots to tally them properly).
The choice is yours.



You consider Google, one of the biggest sites in the world, to be idiots?

Yes. They are using the same tactics Microsoft used Years ago did. Only 
thing they didn't sign on to W3C like MS did. They signed on so they 
could report back to headquarters so the could do everything to break 
the rules. So web designers would have to create two or mor sets of code.


Google is out take all the bucks they can and kill of any other browser 
out there.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[PhillipJones]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Rick Merrill wrote:


W3BNR wrote:

On 5/29/2011 3:41 PM Robert Kaiser submitted the following:

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just
lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.

Robert Kaiser



Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser. That
said,
I do use 'PrefBar' and spoof when I have to - but I still don't like to.

I normally e-mail to whatever site it is that doesn't like SM (the
webmaster or help desk) with the following text:

==


I think it is great that you encourage web sites to support SM!
But think of all the mobile "platforms" that would also like "support".


Of course, the cheapest way to "support" all the browsers would be to
write W3C compliant code, and pay one webmaster to do it instead of
paying three or five or eight to write three or five or eight different
versions.


Most answers are:
"We only support the most common browsers."


This is a necessary evil of "support" which means training expensive
people to answer (ofteh silly) questions!


And of course a compliant site would get fewer calls, would it not?

 Now if you could get Google and Microsoft on Board to do that, there 
would be no problem.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jan_Galt]

I have a small business web site for my home business and make sure it's W3C. 
Doesn't seem to make a difference in the search results, but it's satisfying 
anyway.


-- 
- Jane Galt

"Without America there is no "Free World"."

The reason that Progressivism-Socialism-Communism always fail, is that you 
eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Obama and the Democrats: continuing the Cloward-Piven "Progressive" socialist 
agenda of borrowing, taxing and insanely spending the country into collapse 
and global socialism.

To be a good democrat, you have to believe that businesses create oppression 
and governments create prosperity.

"The one thing that's being pushed in this country, is the motto: The harder 
I work, the more I owe society. The less I work, the more society owes me. We  
can't be a great country with that motto." - Charles Payne.   
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jan_Galt]

"Paul B. Gallagher"   wrote :

> Jan_Galt wrote:
> 
>> "David E. Ross"   wrote :
>>
>>> No, I was not asking for build:config.  I want the user agent (UA)
>>> string that follows "Build identifier" when you select [Help>  About
>>> SeaMonkey] on the menu bar.
>>
>> No build identifier on mine. That's why I sent the other.
> 
> Don't you see something like this?
> 
> # Copyright © 1998-2011 by contributors to the Mozilla Project.
> 
> # Read the licensing information for this product.
> 
> # See the build configuration used for this version.
> 
> # Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; 
> rv:1.9.1.19) Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
> 

OHH, ok, I thought it was a link. Well it's here today:

SeaMonkey

version 2.0.14



* Copyright © 1998-2011 by contributors to the Mozilla Project.

* Read the licensing information for this product.

  
* See the build configuration used for this version.

* Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; 
rv:1.9.1.19) Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14


I'm also having weird problems with Webshots. Every 2 days they tell me 
that I need to get the new version of Adobe Flash Player, I install it yet 
again, and it's fine until 2 days later. WTF?!

-- 
- Jane Galt

"Without America there is no "Free World"."

The reason that Progressivism-Socialism-Communism always fail, is that you 
eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Obama and the Democrats: continuing the Cloward-Piven "Progressive" 
socialist agenda of borrowing, taxing and insanely spending the country 
into collapse and global socialism.

To be a good democrat, you have to believe that businesses create 
oppression and governments create prosperity.

"The one thing that's being pushed in this country, is the motto: The 
harder I work, the more I owe society. The less I work, the more society 
owes me. We  can't be a great country with that motto." - Charles Payne.   
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jan_Galt]

"David E. Ross"   wrote :

> On 5/29/11 8:22 PM, Jan_Galt wrote:
>> "David E. Ross"   wrote :
>> 
>> 
>>> No, I was not asking for build:config.  I want the user agent (UA)
>>> string that follows "Build identifier" when you select [Help > About
>>> SeaMonkey] on the menu bar.
>>>
>> 
>> No build identifier on mine. That's why I sent the other.
>> 
> 
> No "Build identifier" could indicate you are sending a blank UA string
> to the Web server.  If this is so, it might well be the cause of your
> problem.
> 

Well I didn't set it that way, it came with the browser. I have no idea how 
it gets set.

-- 
- Jane Galt

"Without America there is no "Free World"."

The reason that Progressivism-Socialism-Communism always fail, is that you 
eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Obama and the Democrats: continuing the Cloward-Piven "Progressive" socialist 
agenda of borrowing, taxing and insanely spending the country into collapse 
and global socialism.

To be a good democrat, you have to believe that businesses create oppression 
and governments create prosperity.

"The one thing that's being pushed in this country, is the motto: The harder 
I work, the more I owe society. The less I work, the more society owes me. We  
can't be a great country with that motto." - Charles Payne.   
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[sean bean]

JeffM wrote:

JeffM  wrote :

[...]idiots who don't know how to build a website properly[...]


Jan_Galt wrote:

You consider Google, one of the biggest sites in the world, to be idiots?


Yup.
This topic has been covered in this group innumerable times.

YOU DON'T NEED TO SNIFF FOR BROWSERS.
Just make your stupid pages W3C-compliant.

If you are a pervert and insist on sniffing,
DON'T then serve up a You-are-a-doodie-head page.
Just serve up a standards-compliant page
and let the chips fall where they may.
(Frankly, if they are going to sniff then bitch,
they should go ahead and flag M$'s crappy browsers as turds.)

Disclaimer:  Though I use Google all the time,
the only time I see http://.google.com/
is after I have used their complaint form to bitch about something
whereupon they use that URL as the landing page.

I use a previously-visited Google numerical IP address
already in my Address Bar and edit that URL to do a search.[1]
As a rule, their JavaScript and other stupid "improvements" don't
affect me.
...and I avoid DNS by going numeric.

I hear that in your Goggle preferences
you can also turn off much of the stupidity;
again, I do it all manually and precisely.
.
.
...and corporate size doesn't seem to bring with it any particular
smarts.
Micros~1 is also a huge outfit,
yet they are obviously too stupid to put out a product that doesn't
suck.
http://google.com/search?q=botnet+%22.13-million%22
.
.
[1] I also don't end up with a ridiculously long URL
that I have to pare down anyway if I include it in a post.
A keyboard macro app
can then insert the text-address part back in.


there was a popular tagline back in the day, still applies...
--
The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day 
they start making vacuum cleaners.

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[sean bean]

Jan_Galt wrote:

JeffM   wrote :


Jane_Galt wrote:

I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported.


When you encounter idiots who don't know how to build a website
properly,
you have options:
1) Avoid the idiots permanently
2) Complain to the idiots that they should learn how to do their jobs.
3) Spoof your browser's user agent.

As has been said, the newest version of SeaMonkey does #3 by default.
SeaMonkey users who *want* their browser to be counted accurately
think that is a BAD idea
and they will spoof **only** when absolutely necessary
(allowing non-idiots to tally them properly).
The choice is yours.



You consider Google, one of the biggest sites in the world, to be idiots?


not so much idiots, as foolish, Google is likely telling you your 
browser is not supported because Google wants to set all sorts of 
cookies and location awareness data in your browser, which SeaMonkey 
generally doesn't allow by default...


someone w/more knowledge may back me up on this...

sean


i avoid google as much as humanly possible...

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

MCBastos wrote:


Interviewed by CNN on 30/05/2011 06:49, Paul B. Gallagher told the world:


In the long term, if enough sites were compliant, M$ would have to shape
up. In the real world, of course, the whip is in the other hand. :-(


Actually, I understand that IE9 is reasonably compliant (not 100%, but
near enough for most purposes), and the gap has been closing since IE7.
IE6 and older are the really, really bad boys around, and even Microsoft
is trying to make people switch:



So it appears that they ARE shaping up. Unfortunately, there are still
too many copies of IE6 in use.


Good to hear.


The reasons I still stay away from IE nowadays are not so much
standards-compliance, but:

1- Security (MS has a dirt-poor track record in that)


Fair point.


2- IE is designed as a dumbest-user browser. I mean, they admitted that
the IE9 layout assumes that "very few users" open more than 3 tabs.
That's aiming for the low end of the market. Meanwhile, Mozilla was
previewing a way to make it easier to manage dozens of tabs...


Actually, they're right on this. There've been times when I had 
half-a-dozen tabs open, but those are rare, and I could live very easily 
without that capability. I have friends who say they have over a hundred 
tabs open routinely, but try as I may, I can't imagine a situation where 
I would want that, even if the browser supported it. I don't deny their 
taste, but it's not mine, and AFAIK it's not the taste of the vast 
majority of users.



3- A general lack of trust in their design goals. Microsoft in the past
tried to leverage IE into a MS-centric Web, and I have no doubts they
will attempt to do that again as soon as they feel strong enough.


For me it's more a difference in taste than actual /distrust/ of their 
design goals. Sure, I distrust them on security, but that's a separate 
issue.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[MCBastos]

Interviewed by CNN on 30/05/2011 06:49, Paul B. Gallagher told the world:

> In the long term, if enough sites were compliant, M$ would have to shape 
> up. In the real world, of course, the whip is in the other hand. :-(

Actually, I understand that IE9 is reasonably compliant (not 100%, but
near enough for most purposes), and the gap has been closing since IE7.
IE6 and older are the really, really bad boys around, and even Microsoft
is trying to make people switch:

http://www.ie6countdown.com/

So it appears that they ARE shaping up. Unfortunately, there are still
too many copies of IE6 in use.

The reasons I still stay away from IE nowadays are not so much
standards-compliance, but:

1- Security (MS has a dirt-poor track record in that)

2- IE is designed as a dumbest-user browser. I mean, they admitted that
the IE9 layout assumes that "very few users" open more than 3 tabs.
That's aiming for the low end of the market. Meanwhile, Mozilla was
previewing a way to make it easier to manage dozens of tabs...

3- A general lack of trust in their design goals. Microsoft in the past
tried to leverage IE into a MS-centric Web, and I have no doubts they
will attempt to do that again as soon as they feel strong enough.

-- 
MCBastos

This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized
use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.

-=-=-
... Sent from my orbital space station.
*Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.0.14 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Robert Kaiser]

MCBastos schrieb:

Interviewed by CNN on 29/05/2011 16:41, Robert Kaiser told the world:

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.


I sure hope that one of those adjustments is in the installer.


Yes, the installer glitches are why it hasn't shipped as final yet. We 
fixed the default theme thing for the first build of RC2 but didn't even 
release that one as we found yet another problem with localizations and 
optional extensions that we need to do a second build for, and then RC2 
should be there and hopefully will be converted to the actual final 
release a few days later.


Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never 
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community needs answers to. And most of the time, 
I even appreciate irony and fun! :)

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

JeffM wrote:


Paul B. Gallagher wrote:


And of course a compliant site would get fewer calls, would it
not?


In a perfect world: Yes. In a world where M$ is in the browser
market: Who knows?


In the long term, if enough sites were compliant, M$ would have to shape 
up. In the real world, of course, the whip is in the other hand. :-(



You're forgetting that not only is Internet Exploder not W3C-
compliant, the various versions aren't even compatible with each
other. What a steaming pile.


Not forgetting, just choosing not to mention.


Smart Web developers quote a base price for a W3C-compliant page and
an additional charge for each version of M$'s crap that the client
needs to support.


Makes sense.

--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Barry Edwin Gilmour]

Jan_Galt wrote:

"David E. Ross"   wrote :



No, I was not asking for build:config.  I want the user agent (UA)
string that follows "Build identifier" when you select [Help>  About
SeaMonkey] on the menu bar.


No build identifier on mine. That's why I sent the other.

anything when you enter "about:" typed into your navigation toolbar 
(without the inverted commas)?

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Jan_Galt wrote:


"David E. Ross"   wrote :


No, I was not asking for build:config.  I want the user agent (UA)
string that follows "Build identifier" when you select [Help>  About
SeaMonkey] on the menu bar.


No build identifier on mine. That's why I sent the other.


Don't you see something like this?

# Copyright © 1998-2011 by contributors to the Mozilla Project.

# Read the licensing information for this product.

# See the build configuration used for this version.

# Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; 
rv:1.9.1.19) Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[David E. Ross]

On 5/29/11 8:22 PM, Jan_Galt wrote:
> "David E. Ross"   wrote :
> 
> 
>> No, I was not asking for build:config.  I want the user agent (UA)
>> string that follows "Build identifier" when you select [Help > About
>> SeaMonkey] on the menu bar.
>>
> 
> No build identifier on mine. That's why I sent the other.
> 

No "Build identifier" could indicate you are sending a blank UA string
to the Web server.  If this is so, it might well be the cause of your
problem.

-- 

David E. Ross


On occasion, I might filter and ignore all newsgroup messages
posted through GoogleGroups via Google's G2/1.0 user agent
because of spam from that source.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jan_Galt]

"David E. Ross"   wrote :


> No, I was not asking for build:config.  I want the user agent (UA)
> string that follows "Build identifier" when you select [Help > About
> SeaMonkey] on the menu bar.
> 

No build identifier on mine. That's why I sent the other.

-- 
- Jane Galt

"Without America there is no "Free World"."

The reason that Progressivism-Socialism-Communism always fail, is that you 
eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Obama and the Democrats: continuing the Cloward-Piven "Progressive" socialist 
agenda of borrowing, taxing and insanely spending the country into collapse 
and global socialism.

To be a good democrat, you have to believe that businesses create oppression 
and governments create prosperity.

"The one thing that's being pushed in this country, is the motto: The harder 
I work, the more I owe society. The less I work, the more society owes me. We  
can't be a great country with that motto." - Charles Payne.   
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jan_Galt]

WLS   wrote :

> Jan_Galt wrote:
>> Robert Kaiser   wrote :
>>
>>> Jane_Galt schrieb:
 I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
 that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to switch
 from Seamonkey to FF?
>>>
>>> Might just be the time to switch to SeaMonkey 2.1 instead, which 98% of
>>> those sites magically support.
>>>
>>> Robert Kaiser
>>>
>>
>> When I click the logo on the upper right, it says:
>>
>> Download Now
>> SeaMonkey 2.0.14
>>
>>  * Windows, English (10 MB)
>>  * Linux GTK2, English (13 MB)
>>  * Mac OS X, English (22 MB)
>>  * Other Systems&  Languages
>>
>> So I thought that was the latest.
>>
>>
> 
> It is the latest in the 2.0.x branch.
> 
> SM 2.1 is the new release coming soon. Meanwhile the Release Candidate 
> works great.
> 
> WLS
> 

Good, guess I'll keep an eye out for its release, thanks.

-- 
- Jane Galt

"Without America there is no "Free World"."

The reason that Progressivism-Socialism-Communism always fail, is that you 
eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Obama and the Democrats: continuing the Cloward-Piven "Progressive" 
socialist agenda of borrowing, taxing and insanely spending the country 
into collapse and global socialism.

To be a good democrat, you have to believe that businesses create 
oppression and governments create prosperity.

"The one thing that's being pushed in this country, is the motto: The 
harder I work, the more I owe society. The less I work, the more society 
owes me. We  can't be a great country with that motto." - Charles Payne.   
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[JeffM]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
>And of course a compliant site would get fewer calls, would it not?
>
In a perfect world: Yes.
In a world where M$ is in the browser market: Who knows?

You're forgetting that not only is Internet Exploder not W3C-
compliant,
the various versions aren't even compatible with each other.
What a steaming pile.

Smart Web developers quote a base price for a W3C-compliant page
and an additional charge for each version of M$'s crap
that the client needs to support.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[David E. Ross]

On 5/29/11 4:08 PM, Jan_Galt wrote:
> JeffM   wrote :
> 
>> Jane_Galt wrote:
>>> I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
>>> that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported.
>>>
>> When you encounter idiots who don't know how to build a website
>> properly,
>> you have options:
>> 1) Avoid the idiots permanently
>> 2) Complain to the idiots that they should learn how to do their jobs.
>> 3) Spoof your browser's user agent.
>>
>> As has been said, the newest version of SeaMonkey does #3 by default.
>> SeaMonkey users who *want* their browser to be counted accurately
>> think that is a BAD idea
>> and they will spoof **only** when absolutely necessary
>> (allowing non-idiots to tally them properly).
>> The choice is yours.
>>
> 
> You consider Google, one of the biggest sites in the world, to be idiots?
> 

When I was young (before Noah and the Flood, or at least in the late
1950s), I would sometimes criticize some large company.  My father would
reply that a company could not become the largest in its industry by
doing things incorrectly.  He stopped making such replies when I
mentioned the bankruptcy of the Penn-Central Railroad, the largest
railroad company in the U.S.

Also, see my signature below.  Google seems incapable of controlling
spam sent through its own services.

-- 

David E. Ross


On occasion, I might filter and ignore all newsgroup messages
posted through GoogleGroups via Google's G2/1.0 user agent
because of spam from that source.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[David E. Ross]

On 5/29/11 4:04 PM, Jan_Galt wrote:
> "David E. Ross"   wrote :
> 
>> On 5/29/11 11:21 AM, Jane_Galt wrote:
>>> I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
>>> that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to switch
>>> from Seamonkey to FF?
>>>
>>
>> On your SeaMonkey menu bar, select [Help > About SeaMonkey].  In the
>> last (5th) bullet in the white box, copy all the text for "Build
>> identifier".  Reply here, pasting the text into your reply.
>>
> 
> about:buildconfig
> 
> Source
> 
> Built from http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-1.9.1/rev/6a8fcd90b366
> Build platform
> target
> i686-pc-mingw32
> 
> Build tools
> Compiler  Version Compiler flags
> cl14.00.50727.762 -TC -nologo -W3 -Gy -Fdgenerated.pdb -DNDEBUG -
> DTRIMMED -Zi -UDEBUG -DNDEBUG -O1
> cl14.00.50727.762 -GR- -TP -nologo -Zc:wchar_t- -W3 -Gy -
> Fdgenerated.pdb -DNDEBUG -DTRIMMED -Zi -UDEBUG -DNDEBUG -O1
> 
> Configure arguments
> --enable-application=suite --enable-update-channel=release --enable-update-
> packaging --enable-jemalloc --enable-static --disable-shared --disable-tests 
> --enable-application=suite --enable-update-channel=release --enable-update-
> packaging --enable-jemalloc --enable-static --disable-shared --disable-tests 
> --enable-application=../suite --disable-official-branding --with-
> branding=../suite/branding/nightly --disable-debug --enable-optimize --cache-
> file=.././config.cache --srcdir=/e/builds/slave/rel-comm-191-w32-
> bld/build/mozilla 
> 

No, I was not asking for build:config.  I want the user agent (UA)
string that follows "Build identifier" when you select [Help > About
SeaMonkey] on the menu bar.

-- 

David E. Ross


On occasion, I might filter and ignore all newsgroup messages
posted through GoogleGroups via Google's G2/1.0 user agent
because of spam from that source.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[WLS]

Jan_Galt wrote:

Robert Kaiser   wrote :


Jane_Galt schrieb:

I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to switch
from Seamonkey to FF?


Might just be the time to switch to SeaMonkey 2.1 instead, which 98% of
those sites magically support.

Robert Kaiser



When I click the logo on the upper right, it says:

Download Now
SeaMonkey 2.0.14

 * Windows, English (10 MB)
 * Linux GTK2, English (13 MB)
 * Mac OS X, English (22 MB)
 * Other Systems&  Languages

So I thought that was the latest.




It is the latest in the 2.0.x branch.

SM 2.1 is the new release coming soon. Meanwhile the Release Candidate 
works great.


WLS
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[JeffM]

>JeffM  wrote :
>>[...]idiots who don't know how to build a website properly[...]
>>
Jan_Galt wrote:
>You consider Google, one of the biggest sites in the world, to be idiots?
>
Yup.
This topic has been covered in this group innumerable times.

YOU DON'T NEED TO SNIFF FOR BROWSERS.
Just make your stupid pages W3C-compliant.

If you are a pervert and insist on sniffing,
DON'T then serve up a You-are-a-doodie-head page.
Just serve up a standards-compliant page
and let the chips fall where they may.
(Frankly, if they are going to sniff then bitch,
they should go ahead and flag M$'s crappy browsers as turds.)

Disclaimer:  Though I use Google all the time,
the only time I see http://.google.com/
is after I have used their complaint form to bitch about something
whereupon they use that URL as the landing page.

I use a previously-visited Google numerical IP address
already in my Address Bar and edit that URL to do a search.[1]
As a rule, their JavaScript and other stupid "improvements" don't
affect me.
...and I avoid DNS by going numeric.

I hear that in your Goggle preferences
you can also turn off much of the stupidity;
again, I do it all manually and precisely.
.
.
...and corporate size doesn't seem to bring with it any particular
smarts.
Micros~1 is also a huge outfit,
yet they are obviously too stupid to put out a product that doesn't
suck.
http://google.com/search?q=botnet+%22.13-million%22
.
.
[1] I also don't end up with a ridiculously long URL
that I have to pare down anyway if I include it in a post.
A keyboard macro app
can then insert the text-address part back in.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[MCBastos]

Interviewed by CNN on 29/05/2011 16:41, Robert Kaiser told the world:
> Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:
>> For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just lie to
>> them and spoof FF?
> 
> That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means 
> it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.

I sure hope that one of those adjustments is in the installer. I tried
to upgrade my 2.0.14 to the RC1, but ran into a series of weird problems
with the built-in themes(!) and extensions(!) being listed as
"incompatible with SM 2.1". I'm no novice with Mozilla, having been here
since Netscape 2.0 at least, but I couldn't figure out what's wrong with
that. I REALLY wouldn't like to rebuild my profile from scratch.

-- 
MCBastos

This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized
use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.

-=-=-
... Sent from my Bic.
*Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.0.14 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Jan_Galt wrote:


You consider Google, one of the biggest sites in the world, to be
idiots?


Size is no measure of intelligence. Some of the biggest people I know 
are idiots. For that matter, some of the smallest ones are idiots, too. 
It cuts across all demographics.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jan_Galt]

Robert Kaiser   wrote :

> Jane_Galt schrieb:
>> I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
>> that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to switch
>> from Seamonkey to FF?
> 
> Might just be the time to switch to SeaMonkey 2.1 instead, which 98% of 
> those sites magically support.
> 
> Robert Kaiser
> 

When I click the logo on the upper right, it says:

Download Now
SeaMonkey 2.0.14

* Windows, English (10 MB)
* Linux GTK2, English (13 MB)
* Mac OS X, English (22 MB)
* Other Systems & Languages

So I thought that was the latest.


-- 
- Jane Galt

"Without America there is no "Free World"."

The reason that Progressivism-Socialism-Communism always fail, is that you 
eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Obama and the Democrats: continuing the Cloward-Piven "Progressive" 
socialist agenda of borrowing, taxing and insanely spending the country 
into collapse and global socialism.

To be a good democrat, you have to believe that businesses create 
oppression and governments create prosperity.

"The one thing that's being pushed in this country, is the motto: The 
harder I work, the more I owe society. The less I work, the more society 
owes me. We  can't be a great country with that motto." - Charles Payne.   
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jan_Galt]

JeffM   wrote :

> Jane_Galt wrote:
>>I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
>>that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported.
>>
> When you encounter idiots who don't know how to build a website
> properly,
> you have options:
> 1) Avoid the idiots permanently
> 2) Complain to the idiots that they should learn how to do their jobs.
> 3) Spoof your browser's user agent.
> 
> As has been said, the newest version of SeaMonkey does #3 by default.
> SeaMonkey users who *want* their browser to be counted accurately
> think that is a BAD idea
> and they will spoof **only** when absolutely necessary
> (allowing non-idiots to tally them properly).
> The choice is yours.
> 

You consider Google, one of the biggest sites in the world, to be idiots?

-- 
- Jane Galt

"Without America there is no "Free World"."

The reason that Progressivism-Socialism-Communism always fail, is that you 
eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Obama and the Democrats: continuing the Cloward-Piven "Progressive" socialist 
agenda of borrowing, taxing and insanely spending the country into collapse 
and global socialism.

To be a good democrat, you have to believe that businesses create oppression 
and governments create prosperity.

"The one thing that's being pushed in this country, is the motto: The harder 
I work, the more I owe society. The less I work, the more society owes me. We  
can't be a great country with that motto." - Charles Payne.   
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Jan_Galt]

"David E. Ross"   wrote :

> On 5/29/11 11:21 AM, Jane_Galt wrote:
>> I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
>> that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to switch
>> from Seamonkey to FF?
>> 
> 
> On your SeaMonkey menu bar, select [Help > About SeaMonkey].  In the
> last (5th) bullet in the white box, copy all the text for "Build
> identifier".  Reply here, pasting the text into your reply.
> 

about:buildconfig

Source

Built from http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-1.9.1/rev/6a8fcd90b366
Build platform
target
i686-pc-mingw32

Build tools
CompilerVersion Compiler flags
cl  14.00.50727.762 -TC -nologo -W3 -Gy -Fdgenerated.pdb -DNDEBUG -
DTRIMMED -Zi -UDEBUG -DNDEBUG -O1
cl  14.00.50727.762 -GR- -TP -nologo -Zc:wchar_t- -W3 -Gy -
Fdgenerated.pdb -DNDEBUG -DTRIMMED -Zi -UDEBUG -DNDEBUG -O1

Configure arguments
--enable-application=suite --enable-update-channel=release --enable-update-
packaging --enable-jemalloc --enable-static --disable-shared --disable-tests 
--enable-application=suite --enable-update-channel=release --enable-update-
packaging --enable-jemalloc --enable-static --disable-shared --disable-tests 
--enable-application=../suite --disable-official-branding --with-
branding=../suite/branding/nightly --disable-debug --enable-optimize --cache-
file=.././config.cache --srcdir=/e/builds/slave/rel-comm-191-w32-
bld/build/mozilla 

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

JeffM wrote:


Jane_Galt wrote:

I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported.


When you encounter idiots who don't know how to build a website
properly,
you have options:
1) Avoid the idiots permanently
2) Complain to the idiots that they should learn how to do their jobs.
...


This is a delicate job, not easily done. You don't know who you're 
talking to, so you can't choose to push the right button. Some people 
respond well to coaxing, others to light humor, still others to a kick 
in the pants, etc. etc.


Most people respond badly to "shape up, you idiot!" but for a few, 
that's the only way to change them. Many people will honor a polite, 
respectful request, but some will ignore it. What do you do if you enter 
the reactor control room with lights out and alarms ringing? Which 
button will shut it down and which will blow you up? No way to know.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Rick Merrill wrote:


W3BNR wrote:

On 5/29/2011 3:41 PM Robert Kaiser submitted the following:

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just
lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.

Robert Kaiser



Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser. That
said,
I do use 'PrefBar' and spoof when I have to - but I still don't like to.

I normally e-mail to whatever site it is that doesn't like SM (the
webmaster or help desk) with the following text:

==


I think it is great that you encourage web sites to support SM!
But think of all the mobile "platforms" that would also like "support".


Of course, the cheapest way to "support" all the browsers would be to 
write W3C compliant code, and pay one webmaster to do it instead of 
paying three or five or eight to write three or five or eight different 
versions.



Most answers are:
"We only support the most common browsers."


This is a necessary evil of "support" which means training expensive
people to answer (ofteh silly) questions!


And of course a compliant site would get fewer calls, would it not?

--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[JeffM]

Jane_Galt wrote:
>I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places
>that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported.
>
When you encounter idiots who don't know how to build a website
properly,
you have options:
1) Avoid the idiots permanently
2) Complain to the idiots that they should learn how to do their jobs.
3) Spoof your browser's user agent.

As has been said, the newest version of SeaMonkey does #3 by default.
SeaMonkey users who *want* their browser to be counted accurately
think that is a BAD idea
and they will spoof **only** when absolutely necessary
(allowing non-idiots to tally them properly).
The choice is yours.
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Rick Merrill]

W3BNR wrote:

On 5/29/2011 3:41 PM Robert Kaiser submitted the following:

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.

Robert Kaiser



Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser. That
said,
I do use 'PrefBar' and spoof when I have to - but I still don't like to.

I normally e-mail to whatever site it is that doesn't like SM (the
webmaster or help desk) with the following text:

==


I think it is great that you encourage web sites to support SM!
But think of all the mobile "platforms" that would also like "support".



Most answers are:
"We only support the most common browsers."


This is a necessary evil of "support" which means training expensive
people to answer (ofteh silly) questions!
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Robert Kaiser wrote:


Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.


I see. I missed that memo.

--
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--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[W3BNR]

On 5/29/2011 3:41 PM Robert Kaiser submitted the following:

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.

Robert Kaiser



Personally I don't think we should have to lie about our browser.  That said,
I do use 'PrefBar' and spoof when I have to - but I still don't like to.

I normally e-mail to whatever site it is that doesn't like SM (the webmaster or 
help desk) with the following text:


==

I use SeaMonkey - Your system will not support it, although other Gecko based 
mail systems are supported."


You may not be aware that SeaMonkey is a suite (mail & browser combined) as was 
Netscape & Mozilla.


It is basically Firefox and Thunderbird rolled into one program.  You are 
supporting other Gecko based software, why not SeaMonkey?


Perhaps your powers-to-be should read: http://geckoisgecko.org/

And going further a quote from Wikipedia: "Gecko is the second most-popular 
layout engine on the World Wide Web, after Trident (used by Internet Explorer 
for Windows since version 4), and followed by WebKit (used by Safari & Google 
Chrome) and Presto (used by Opera)."


And I'm thinking that you don't support it because it adheres pretty much to the 
W3C standards for HTML and CSS."


'Nuff said.

==

Most answers are:
"We only support the most common browsers."
"I never heard of SeaMonkey"

And one actually reported a change in his sniffing to recognize SeaMonkey.


--
Ed
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1zhwu/
Powered by SeaMonkey: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/

"Not everything that is faced can be changed but nothing can
be changed until it is faced."-James Baldwin  (1924-1987)
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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Robert Kaiser]

Paul B. Gallagher schrieb:

For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just lie to
them and spoof FF?


That's what 2.1 does. And it's not beta any more, it's RC, which means 
it's as good as release, with just minor adjustments to be made still.


Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never 
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community needs answers to. And most of the time, 
I even appreciate irony and fun! :)

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Robert Kaiser wrote:


Jane_Galt schrieb:

I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other
places that my browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to
switch from Seamonkey to FF?


Might just be the time to switch to SeaMonkey 2.1 instead, which 98% of
those sites magically support.


Google search is perfectly happy with my SM 2.0.14 and has been with all 
previous versions I have ever used. So why should I take the risk and 
become a beta tester if I don't have to?


For those few sites too stupid to sniff for "Gecko," why not just lie to 
them and spoof FF? There are lots of options...


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[Robert Kaiser]

Jane_Galt schrieb:

I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places that my
browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to switch from Seamonkey to
FF?


Might just be the time to switch to SeaMonkey 2.1 instead, which 98% of 
those sites magically support.


Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never 
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community needs answers to. And most of the time, 
I even appreciate irony and fun! :)

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Re: Browser no longer supported

[David E. Ross]

On 5/29/11 11:21 AM, Jane_Galt wrote:
> I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places that my 
> browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to switch from Seamonkey to 
> FF?
> 

On your SeaMonkey menu bar, select [Help > About SeaMonkey].  In the
last (5th) bullet in the white box, copy all the text for "Build
identifier".  Reply here, pasting the text into your reply.

-- 

David E. Ross


On occasion, I might filter and ignore all newsgroup messages
posted through GoogleGroups via Google's G2/1.0 user agent
because of spam from that source.
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Browser no longer supported

[Jane_Galt]

I keep getting messages from Google search, Adwords and other places that my 
browser ( SM ) is no longer supported. Is it time to switch from Seamonkey to 
FF?

-- 
- Jane Galt

"Without America there is no "Free World"."

The reason that Progressivism-Socialism-Communism always fail, is that you 
eventually run out of other peoples' money.

Obama and the Democrats: continuing the Cloward-Piven "Progressive" socialist 
agenda of borrowing, taxing and insanely spending the country into collapse 
and global socialism.

To be a good democrat, you have to believe that businesses create oppression 
and governments create prosperity.

"The one thing that's being pushed in this country, is the motto: The harder 
I work, the more I owe society. The less I work, the more society owes me. We  
can't be a great country with that motto." - Charles Payne.   
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