Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts

[bob allen]

Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards.  Lower vapor pressure means less 
volatile.  The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature 
when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea 
level) 
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go.  I think 
> the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure

lower vapor pressure
> than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize 
> into a fuel-air mixture effectively.  Gasoline vaporizes much easier, 
> and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion.  But water has 
> an even higher vapor pressure
lower
> than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help.  
> Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've 
> seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline 
> content to start in the winter.

the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol 
water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure) 
which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix.  The problem 
here is that  vapor pressure and  water solubility tend to be inversely 
proportional.  One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl 
ketone.  both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than 
either.

> What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are 
> efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade 
> to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan.   Where's the little 4 cylinder 
> efficient flex fuel vehical?  Guess it's not all that hard to change 
> out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow 
> running ethanol.
>

what's a carburetor?  :->

> Z
>
> On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>  I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20%
> gasoline to improve cold weather starts.
> What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol
> : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts?
>  Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters?
>  
> Thanks,
>   Tom
>
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>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[bob allen]

Howdy Bob, I certainly didn't mean to imply that our health care system 
is better than others.  I offered up the statistics only to correct a 
statement made by another. Personally  I am embarrassed by the poor 
overall state of health care in the USA and as I mentioned in another 
post, it is due principally to the lack of universal health care. 
Another factor is our downright foolish reluctance to teach about sex in 
public schools and on and on. 

Clinton had an initiative to move towards universal health care at the 
beginning of his first term, but the proposal went no where.  Costs 
continue to rise  while more and more are left without insurance.  Maybe 
with our ever so slight lurch to the left, we may see some movement 
towards providing health care for all. 

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2006/11/27/news/latest_news/b1e8f84368598b8886257233007700f6.txt




Bob Molloy wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>   Why not compare apples with apples? If we really want to
> inform ourselves shouldn't we be comparing what it is in various western
> democracies that produces such important health statistics? Patting
> ourselves on the back for having better infant mortality rates than third
> world countries is of little help. Better to look to the front runners such
> as  Sweden and Norway (second and seventh respectively in the world ranking
> for infant mortality rates while the US is 36th). All three are democracies,
> the difference is that the first two are socialist in the sense that their
> governments own and run all the big ticket items such as water, power,
> education and health, with education and health provided free.
> Regards,
> Bob.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>
>
>   
>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>> 
>>> We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The
>>> corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality in Belize is
>>> better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live
>>> elsewhere.
>>> Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and
>>> weep.
>>>   
>> I did and your off the mark.  We do rank poorly among European and some
>> 
> Asian countries but ahead of
>   
>> most poorer countries.
>>
>> (36th on a list at
>> 
> http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)
>   
>>
>> see  http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html
>>
>> for example
>>
>> Belize  24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> United States   6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> Canada   4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> Iceland   3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> India  61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> China  27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> 
>
>   
>>> Kirk
>>>
>>> */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Leo,
>>>   Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It
>>> just appeared in
>>> my email inbox.  The story does have a moral, whether it's
>>> correct or not,
>>> I not qualified to say.
>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>> 11/23/2006
>>> *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
>>> /by Richard J. Marbury/
>>> snip
>>> Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official
>>> story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of
>>> abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country
>>> where we can have them.
>>> snip
>>>
>>>
>>> It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free
>>> market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God
>>> himself.  Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source
>>> of abundance is God?
>>>
>>> Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide,
>>> slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about...
>&

Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[bob allen]

universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's every man/women for 
his/her self.

JAMES PHELPS wrote:
> Wow that’s almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and 
> Iceland do so well coming from the free world?
>
> - Original Message -----
>     *From:* bob allen <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>
>
>
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very
> poor. The
> > corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality in
> Belize is
> > better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like
> to live
> > elsewhere.
> > Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read
> em and
> > weep.
>
> I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and
> some Asian countries but ahead of
> most poorer countries.
>
> (36th on a list at
> http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)
>
>
>
> see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html
>
> for example
>
> Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>
>
> Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Kirk
> >
> > */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/>* wrote:
> >
> > On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> >
> > Leo,
> > Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It
> > just appeared in
> > my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's
> > correct or not,
> > I not qualified to say.
> > Peace, D. Mindock
> >
> > 11/23/2006
> > *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
> > /by Richard J. Marbury/
> > snip
> > Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official
> > story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of
> > abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country
> > where we can have them.
> > snip
> >
> >
> > It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free
> > market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God
> > himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source
> > of abundance is God?
> >
> > Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide,
> > slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about...
> >
> > Z
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> >
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> >
> 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> >
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> >
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journey

Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The 
> corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality in Belize is 
> better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live 
> elsewhere.
> Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and 
> weep.

I did and your off the mark.  We do rank poorly among European and some Asian 
countries but ahead of 
most poorer countries.

(36th on a list at 
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)



see  http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html

for example

Belize   24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)


Canada4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
Iceland   3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
India61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
China27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)










>  
> Kirk
> 
> */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> 
> Leo,
>   Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It
> just appeared in
> my email inbox.  The story does have a moral, whether it's
> correct or not,
> I not qualified to say.  
> Peace, D. Mindock
>  
> 11/23/2006
> *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
> /by Richard J. Marbury/
> snip
> Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official
> story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of
> abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country
> where we can have them.
> snip
> 
> 
> It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free
> market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God
> himself.  Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source
> of abundance is God?
> 
> Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide,
> slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about...
> 
> Z
>  
> 
> 
> ___
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> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta>
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006
> 


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Colloidal Silver Cured MS

[bob allen]

* *J Toxicol Clin Toxicol.  1996;34(1):119-26. 
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=pubmed_Abstract&db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=8632503>


*Silver products for medical indications: risk-benefit assessment.*

*Fung MC*

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Fung+MC%22%5BAuthor%5D>,
*Bowen DL*

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Bowen+DL%22%5BAuthor%5D>.


BACKGROUND: Legitimate medicinal use of silver-containing products has 
dramatically diminished over the last several decades. Recently, 
however, some manufacturers have begun to enthusiastically promote oral 
colloidal silver proteins as mineral supplements and for prevention and 
treatment of many diseases. Indiscriminate use of silver products can 
lead to toxicity such as argyria. OBJECTIVE: To assist health care 
professionals in a risk versus benefit assessment of over-the-counter 
silver-containing products, we herein examine the following issues: 
historical uses, chemistry, pharmacology, clinical toxicology, case 
reports of adverse events in the literature, and the recent promotion of 
over-the-counter silver products. Other sources of silver exposure 
(including environmental and dietary) and EPA exposure standards are 
discussed. A list of currently available silver products is provided for 
easy reference and screening. CONCLUSIONS: We emphasize the lack of 
established effectiveness and potential toxicity of these products.



Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
> Very interesting story
>
> I use CS for so many things and I've always been very pleased with the 
> results so I was very impressed when I saw this article.
>
>   http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/content.asp?id=265
>
> Mary Lynn Schmidt
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine

[bob allen]

big snip
>
>  
> Imagine, for a moment, that you have spent more than two decades in 
> painfully laborious research-- that you have discovered an incredibly 
> simple, electronic approach to curing literally every disease on the 
> planet caused by viruses and bacteria .
>   

isn't anybody bothered by such a broad claim as "curing literally every 
disease on the planet caused by viruses and bacteria"  That alone is 
enough to make me highly skeptical of anything else.  And the invocation 
of  "big whatever" conspiracy to suppress this miracle invention cinches 
it.


oh, and ascribing a particular resonant frequency to a bacteria or 
virus,  to be selective one should have a different frequency for each 
bacteria or virus.   Aside from this machine, if this phenomena were 
true, shouldn't there be data from other sources, hopefully something 
found via google scholar? 








 

-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine

[bob allen]

AltEnergyNetwork wrote:
> Don't use your device to try to kill dogs please.
>
> tallex
>
>
>   


the only problem I am having with my dog mortality oscillator is making  
a frequency  with more than one wavelength!


"He illuminated the microbe (usually a virus or bacteria)

 with two different wavelengths of the same ultraviolet light frequency"  


I am curious as to how you plan to do this.  







>   
>>  ---Original Message---
>>  From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine
>>  Sent: 16 Nov '06 14:25
>>  
>>  Howdy D,
>>  
>>  D. Mindock wrote:
>>  >  
>>  >
>>  > **
>>  > *Royal Rife, M.D. <http://rife.org/>  He had a most unusual and
>>  > productive life. His two main inventions were a microscope that could
>>  > see the tiniest virus and an electronic/light machine that could kill
>>  > any dangerous microbe without harming the healthy cells of the human
>>  > body. In essence, it could cure any disease caused by viruses,
>>  > bacteria, and fungi, just by dialing in the M.O.R. (mortality
>>  > oscillatory rate, a particular frequency for that organism).*
>>  
>>  not to worry, see for example hulda clarks "zapper"
>>  
>>  http://www.toolsforhealing.com/CD/Articles/D/DifferencesBetweenZappers.html
>>  
>>  
>>  I'm currently working on a long range mortality oscillator for the dogs
>>  that killed a couple of my goats.
>>  
>>  > * Dr Rife worked for decades to determine the MOR for every microbe
>>  > that he could view in his very powerful microscope.  His greatest
>>  > feat, I think, was curing 16 terminally ill patients of cancer. That
>>  > is, 16 out of 16, a perfect 100%.*
>>  > *   His technology has been resurrected and is available again
>>  > although the FDA and AMA would rather you not know about it or think
>>  > it to be a quack device. Rife was famous in the early decades of the
>>  > last century and well respected by all the leading bacteriologists
>>  > until the AMA got worried that Rife's machine would end their gravy
>>  > train. Then lots of his former colleagues turned on him. Very sad
>>  > commentary on the lure of moolah and the weakness of man.*
>>  > * *
>>  > **
>>  > *Royal Raymond Rife*
>>  > Edited by Jeff Rense
>>  > 11-7-2
>>  >  
>>  > Imagine, for a moment, that you have spent more than two decades in
>>  > painfully laborious research-- that you have discovered an incredibly
>>  > simple, electronic approach to curing literally every disease on the
>>  > planet caused by viruses and bacteria . Indeed, it is a discovery that
>>  > would end the pain and suffering of countless millions and change life
>>  > on Earth forever. Certainly, the medical world would rush to embrace
>>  > you with every imaginable accolade and financial reward imaginable.
>>  > You would think so, wouldn?t you?
>>  >
>>  > Unfortunately, arguably the greatest medical genius in all recorded
>>  > history suffered a fate literally the opposite of the foregoing
>>  > logical scenario. In fact, the history of medicine is replete with
>>  > stories of genius betrayed by backward thought and jealously, but most
>>  > pathetically, by greed and money.
>>  >  
>>  > In the nineteenth century, Semmelweiss struggled mightily to convince
>>  > surgeons that it was a good idea to sterilize their instruments and
>>  > use sterile surgical procedures. Pasteur was ridiculed for years for
>>  > his theory that germs could cause disease.
>>  >
>>  > Scores of other medical visionaries went through hell for simply
>>  > challenging the medical status quo of day, including such legends as
>>  > Roentgen and his X-rays, Morton for promoting the 'absurd' idea of
>>  > anaesthesia, Harvey for his theory of the circulation of blood, and
>>  > many others in recent decades including: W.F. Koch, Revici, Burzynski,
>>  > Naessens, Priore, Livingston-Wheeler, and Hoxsey.
>>  >  
>>  > Orthodox big-money medicine resents and seeks to neutralize and/or
>>  > destroy those who challenge its beliefs. Often, the visionary who
>>  > challenges it pays a heavy price for his 'heresy.'
>>  >  
>>  > So, you have just discovered a new therapy which can eradicate any
>>  > microbial disease but, so far, you and your amazing cure are

Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine

[bob allen]

aw the 
>> epidemic of cancer increase from 1 in 24 Americans in 1905 to 1 in 3 in 
>> 1971 when Rife died.
>>
>> He also witnessed the phenomenal growth of the American Cancer Society, the 
>> Salk Foundation, and many others collecting hundreds of millions of dollars 
>> for diseases that were cured long before in his own San Diego laboratories. 
>> In one period, 176,500 cancer drugs were submitted for approval. Any that 
>> showed 'favorable' results in only one-sixth of one percent of the cases 
>> being studied could be licensed. Some of these drugs had a mortality rate 
>> of 14-17%. When death came from the drug, not the cancer, the case was 
>> recorded as a 'complete' or 'partial remission' because the patient didn't 
>> actually die from the cancer. In reality, it was a race to see which would 
>> kill the patient first: the drug or the disease.
>>
>> The inevitable conclusion reached by Rife was that his life-long labor and 
>> discoveries had not only been ignored but probably would be buried with 
>> him. At that point, he ceased to produce much of anything and spent the 
>> last third of his life seeking oblivion in alcohol. It dulled the pain and 
>> his acute awareness of half a century of wasted effort - ignored - while 
>> the unnecessary suffering of millions continued so that a vested few might 
>> profit. And profit they did, and profit they do.
>>
>> In 1971, Royal Rife died from a combination of valium and alcohol at the 
>> age of 83. Perhaps his continual exposure to his own Rife frequencies 
>> helped his body endure abuse for so many years.
>>
>> Fortunately, his death was not the end of his electronic therapy. A few 
>> humanitarian doctors and engineers reconstructed his frequency instruments 
>> and kept his genius alive. Rife technology became public knowledge again in 
>> 1986 with the publication of The Cancer Cure That Worked, by Barry Lynes, 
>> and other material about Royal Rife and his monumental work.
>>
>> There is wide variation in the cost, design, and quality of the modern 
>> portable Rife frequency research instruments available. Costs vary from 
>> about $1200 to $3600 with price being no legitimate indicator of the 
>> technical competence in the design of the instrument or performance of the 
>> instruent. Some of the most expensive units have serious technical 
>> limitations and are essentially a waste of money. At the other extreme, 
>> some researchers do get crude results from inexpensive simple, unmodified 
>> frequency generators, but this is just as misguided as spending too much 
>> money. Without the proper modifications, the basic frequency generator 
>> gives only minimal and inconsistent results. Please recall that the actual 
>> destruction of the viruses and bacteria, etc. is not accomplished by the 
>> frequency displayed on these cheap generators, but by certain shorter 
>> harmonics of that particular frequency which are often blocked by the 
>> crudity of a cheap and rudimentary instrument itself.
>>
>> This very problem led Rife to ultimately abandon the 'ray tube' design in 
>> favor of today's version. The newer technology applies the frequencies and 
>> their harmonics to the body through the use of hand-held, footplate, or 
>> stick-on electrodes. Proper frequency exposure and flushing of the body 
>> with large amounts of clean, pure water is critical to achieve the kind of 
>> results Rife got. These procedures are fully explained in the manuals of 
>> the best units on the market.
>>
>> So, unless you would be satisfied with sporadic results for minor 
>> conditions, it is suggested you use only the highest quality equipment and 
>> only the proper, proven procedures in your personal research. If you do, 
>> you may discover that nothing can approach what can be achieved through the 
>> application of these safe, time-tested frequencies (many for over 65 
>> years)- and all without drugs, surgery, or radiation.
>>
>> One day, the name of Royal Raymond Rife may ascend to its rightful place as 
>> the giant of modern medical science. Until that time, his fabulous 
>> technology remains available only to the people who have the interest to 
>> seek it out. While perfectly legal for veterinarians to use to save the 
>> lives of animals, Rife's brilliant frequency therapy remains taboo to 
>> orthodox mainstream medicine because of the continuing threat it poses to 
>> the international pharmaceutical medical monopoly that controls the lives - 
>> and deaths - of the vast majority of the people on this planet.
>>
>> 
>> 
>
>
>   
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>> 
>
>
>
> ___
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> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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>
>
>
>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine

[bob allen]

e casualties from this 
>> tiny virus exceeded the carnage of all the wars America ever fought. In 
>> 1989, it was estimated that 40% of us will experience cancer at some time 
>> in our lives.
>>
>> In Rife's lifetime, he had witnessed the progress of civilization from 
>> horse-and-buggy travel to jet planes. In that same time, he saw the 
>> epidemic of cancer increase from 1 in 24 Americans in 1905 to 1 in 3 in 
>> 1971 when Rife died.
>>
>> He also witnessed the phenomenal growth of the American Cancer Society, the 
>> Salk Foundation, and many others collecting hundreds of millions of dollars 
>> for diseases that were cured long before in his own San Diego laboratories. 
>> In one period, 176,500 cancer drugs were submitted for approval. Any that 
>> showed 'favorable' results in only one-sixth of one percent of the cases 
>> being studied could be licensed. Some of these drugs had a mortality rate 
>> of 14-17%. When death came from the drug, not the cancer, the case was 
>> recorded as a 'complete' or 'partial remission' because the patient didn't 
>> actually die from the cancer. In reality, it was a race to see which would 
>> kill the patient first: the drug or the disease.
>>
>> The inevitable conclusion reached by Rife was that his life-long labor and 
>> discoveries had not only been ignored but probably would be buried with 
>> him. At that point, he ceased to produce much of anything and spent the 
>> last third of his life seeking oblivion in alcohol. It dulled the pain and 
>> his acute awareness of half a century of wasted effort - ignored - while 
>> the unnecessary suffering of millions continued so that a vested few might 
>> profit. And profit they did, and profit they do.
>>
>> In 1971, Royal Rife died from a combination of valium and alcohol at the 
>> age of 83. Perhaps his continual exposure to his own Rife frequencies 
>> helped his body endure abuse for so many years.
>>
>> Fortunately, his death was not the end of his electronic therapy. A few 
>> humanitarian doctors and engineers reconstructed his frequency instruments 
>> and kept his genius alive. Rife technology became public knowledge again in 
>> 1986 with the publication of The Cancer Cure That Worked, by Barry Lynes, 
>> and other material about Royal Rife and his monumental work.
>>
>> There is wide variation in the cost, design, and quality of the modern 
>> portable Rife frequency research instruments available. Costs vary from 
>> about $1200 to $3600 with price being no legitimate indicator of the 
>> technical competence in the design of the instrument or performance of the 
>> instruent. Some of the most expensive units have serious technical 
>> limitations and are essentially a waste of money. At the other extreme, 
>> some researchers do get crude results from inexpensive simple, unmodified 
>> frequency generators, but this is just as misguided as spending too much 
>> money. Without the proper modifications, the basic frequency generator 
>> gives only minimal and inconsistent results. Please recall that the actual 
>> destruction of the viruses and bacteria, etc. is not accomplished by the 
>> frequency displayed on these cheap generators, but by certain shorter 
>> harmonics of that particular frequency which are often blocked by the 
>> crudity of a cheap and rudimentary instrument itself.
>>
>> This very problem led Rife to ultimately abandon the 'ray tube' design in 
>> favor of today's version. The newer technology applies the frequencies and 
>> their harmonics to the body through the use of hand-held, footplate, or 
>> stick-on electrodes. Proper frequency exposure and flushing of the body 
>> with large amounts of clean, pure water is critical to achieve the kind of 
>> results Rife got. These procedures are fully explained in the manuals of 
>> the best units on the market.
>>
>> So, unless you would be satisfied with sporadic results for minor 
>> conditions, it is suggested you use only the highest quality equipment and 
>> only the proper, proven procedures in your personal research. If you do, 
>> you may discover that nothing can approach what can be achieved through the 
>> application of these safe, time-tested frequencies (many for over 65 
>> years)- and all without drugs, surgery, or radiation.
>>
>> One day, the name of Royal Raymond Rife may ascend to its rightful place as 
>> the giant of modern medical science. Until that time, his fabulous 
>> technology remains available only to the people who have the interest to 
>> seek it out. While perfectly legal for veterinarians to use to save the 
>> lives of animals, Rife's brilliant frequency therapy remains taboo to 
>> orthodox mainstream medicine because of the continuing threat it poses to 
>> the international pharmaceutical medical monopoly that controls the lives - 
>> and deaths - of the vast majority of the people on this planet.
>>
>> 
>> 
>
>
>   
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>> 
>
>
>
> ___
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> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine

[bob allen]

exico. That was 
> an exorbitant amount of money in the Depression.
>  
> Dr. George Dock, another prominent figure who collaborated with Rife, 
> was silenced with an enormous grant, along with the highest honors 
> theAmerican Medical Associationcould bestow. Between the carrots and 
> the sticks, everyone except Dr. Couche and Dr. Milbank Johnson gave up 
> Rife's work and went back to prescribing drugs.
>
> To finish the job, the medical journals, support almost entirely by 
> drug company revenues and controlled by the AMA, refused to publish 
> any paper by anyone on Rife's therapy. Therefore, an entire generation 
> of medical students graduated into practice without ever once hearing 
> of Rife's breakthroughs in medicine.
>
> The magnitude of such an insane crime eclipses every mass murder in 
> history. Cancer picks us off quietly...but by 1960 the casualties from 
> this tiny virus exceeded the carnage of all the wars America ever 
> fought. In 1989, it was estimated that 40% of us will experience 
> cancer at some time in our lives.
>  
> In Rife's lifetime, he had witnessed the progress of civilization from 
> horse-and-buggy travel to jet planes. In that same time, he saw the 
> epidemic of cancer increase from 1 in 24 Americans in 1905 to 1 in 3 
> in 1971 when Rife died.
>  
> He also witnessed the phenomenal growth of the American Cancer 
> Society, the Salk Foundation, and many others collecting hundreds of 
> millions of dollars for diseases that were cured long before in his 
> own San Diego laboratories. In one period, 176,500 cancer drugs were 
> submitted for approval. Any that showed 'favorable' results in only 
> one-sixth of one percent of the cases being studied could be licensed. 
> Some of these drugs had a mortality rate of 14-17%. When death came 
> from the drug, not the cancer, the case was recorded as a 'complete' 
> or 'partial remission' because the patient didn't actually die from 
> the cancer. In reality, it was a race to see which would kill the 
> patient first: the drug or the disease.
>
> The inevitable conclusion reached by Rife was that his life-long labor 
> and discoveries had not only been ignored but probably would be buried 
> with him. At that point, he ceased to produce much of anything and 
> spent the last third of his life seeking oblivion in alcohol. It 
> dulled the pain and his acute awareness of half a century of wasted 
> effort - ignored - while the unnecessary suffering of millions 
> continued so that a vested few might profit. And profit they did, and 
> profit they do.
>
> In 1971, Royal Rife died from a combination of valium and alcohol at 
> the age of 83. Perhaps his continual exposure to his own Rife 
> frequencies helped his body endure abuse for so many years.
>
> Fortunately, his death was not the end of his electronic therapy. A 
> few humanitarian doctors and engineers reconstructed his frequency 
> instruments and kept his genius alive. Rife technology became public 
> knowledge again in 1986 with the publication of The Cancer Cure That 
> Worked, by Barry Lynes, and other material about Royal Rife and his 
> monumental work.
>
> There is wide variation in the cost, design, and quality of the modern 
> portable Rife frequency research instruments available. Costs vary 
> from about $1200 to $3600 with price being no legitimate indicator of 
> the technical competence in the design of the instrument or 
> performance of the instruent. Some of the most expensive units have 
> serious technical limitations and are essentially a waste of money. At 
> the other extreme, some researchers do get crude results from 
> inexpensive simple, unmodified frequency generators, but this is just 
> as misguided as spending too much money. Without the proper 
> modifications, the basic frequency generator gives only minimal and 
> inconsistent results. Please recall that the actual destruction of the 
> viruses and bacteria, etc. is not accomplished by the frequency 
> displayed on these cheap generators, but by certain shorter harmonics 
> of that particular frequency which are often blocked by the crudity of 
> a cheap and rudimentary instrument itself.
>  
> This very problem led Rife to ultimately abandon the 'ray tube' design 
> in favor of today's version. The newer technology applies the 
> frequencies and their harmonics to the body through the use of 
> hand-held, footplate, or stick-on electrodes. Proper frequency 
> exposure and flushing of the body with large amounts of clean, pure 
> water is critical to achieve the kind of results Rife got. These 
> procedures are fully explained in the manuals of the be

Re: [Biofuel] Interesting story from The Washington Post

[bob allen]

://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/>
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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> 
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.5/533 - Release Date: 11/13/2006


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining

[bob allen]

update, it appears that most of the sulfur which went into solution 
crystallized out (needles) upon cooling to room temp.   

bob allen wrote:
> I put one gram of sulfur  (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and 
> heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is 
> soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel.   
>
>
> Tonomár András wrote:
>   
>> I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace
>> of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret)
>>
>> WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving
>> Thank you in advance
>>
>> Kind reg.
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant
>> andlubricatinginsteelmachining
>>
>>
>> I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in
>> non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect
>> it would have some solubility in biodiesel.   Probably all you would
>> need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the
>> biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that
>> when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur
>> present  in another form.  If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a
>> try. stay tuned.
>>
>> Another point, if "sulfurated"  biodiesel works, wouldn't "sulfurated"
>> vegetable oil work just as well?
>>
>>   
>> 
>>> I would but I don't do enough to matter.  I am not sure how they put
>>> sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question?
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>   
>>>> From: Tonomár András <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant
>>>> andlubricatinginsteelmachining
>>>> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100
>>>>
>>>> James,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your reply.
>>>> Do you know how can I add sulfur?
>>>> What was your final conclusion with the experiment?
>>>> Do you still use it or not?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: 
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and
>>>> lubricatinginsteelmachining
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>>>> Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>> magic
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>>>> ingreadient to cutting oils.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>>> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>>> To: 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating
>>>>>> insteelmachining
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> 
>>>> some
>>>> for
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>>>>> this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't'
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> 
>>>> have a
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>>>>> regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> 
>>>> cutting oil
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>>>>> and one for biodiesel then compare the properties.  This can be a
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> 
>>>> guide
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>>>>> that will tell you what modifications you need to make.
>>>>>>   - Original Message -
>>>>>>   From: Tonomár András<mailt

Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining

[bob allen]

of equal importance is the form of the sulfur.  Is it elemental ie, just 
sulfur atoms all by themselves, or is the sulfur present  as an 
organosulfur compound.  or even present as a metal sulfide salt?

JAMES PHELPS wrote:
> Bob, Andrew,
>
> I will investigate the percentage of sulfer in cutting oil and get 
> back to you, stay tuned.
>
> Jim
>
>
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant
>> andlubricatinginsteelmachining
>> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:00:34 -0600
>>
>> I put one gram of sulfur  (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and
>> heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is
>> soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel.
>>
>>
>> Tonomár András wrote:
>> > I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace
>> > of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial 
>> secret)
>> >
>> > WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving
>> > Thank you in advance
>> >
>> > Kind reg.
>> > Andrew
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant
>> > andlubricatinginsteelmachining
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in
>> > non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect
>> > it would have some solubility in biodiesel.   Probably all you would
>> > need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the
>> > biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that
>> > when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than 
>> sulfur
>> > present  in another form.  If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a
>> > try. stay tuned.
>> >
>> > Another point, if "sulfurated"  biodiesel works, wouldn't "sulfurated"
>> > vegetable oil work just as well?
>> >
>> >
>> >> I would but I don't do enough to matter.  I am not sure how they put
>> >> sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question?
>> >>
>> >> Jim
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> From: Tonomár András <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >>> To: 
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant
>> >>> andlubricatinginsteelmachining
>> >>> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100
>> >>>
>> >>> James,
>> >>>
>> >>> Thank you for your reply.
>> >>> Do you know how can I add sulfur?
>> >>> What was your final conclusion with the experiment?
>> >>> Do you still use it or not?
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks
>> >>> Andrew
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> - Original Message -
>> >>> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >>> To: 
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and
>> >>> lubricatinginsteelmachining
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the
>> >>>>
>> >>> magic
>> >>>
>> >>>> ingreadient to cutting oils.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >>>>> To: 
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating
>> >>>>> insteelmachining
>> >>>>> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used
>> >>>>>
>> >>> some
>> >>> for
>> >>>
>> >>>>> this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't'
>> >>>>>
>> >>> have a
>> >>>
>> >>>>> regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on yo

Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> My dentist says that the average age of death for dentists in Missouri is 
> 52.
this number seems to be way far off the average age at death for North 
Americans, by something like 20 years.  One would think that this 
statistic would stand out like a sore thumb.  I sure wish someone would 
find a reference in addition to D's dentist. We can go  back and forth 
till we all turn blue about the relative toxicity of dental amalgams, 
but you have suggested a simple "end point" which I question.   

> He attributes
> this to all the mercury they're exposed to in the amalgams they use. If you 
> read about the
> history of mercury in amalgams, it was despised by dental associations in 
> the 1800's. They
> knew then that mercury was bad news wrt health. It still is. People with a 
> mouthful of
> fillings made of amalgams (not composite resin) should get a heavy metal 
> check through
> hair analysis. Dentists and doctors need to remember: First, do no harm. 
> Mercury amalgams
> are banned in several European countries. The average American has eight 
> amalgam fillings,
> btw. Root canals with their amalgam centers are also a cause for concern, as 
> I've found out.
> Amalgams also contain tin which is toxic. I think some even contain aluminum 
> which is suspected
> as a cause of Alzheimer's, as is mercury. Dentists should be using composite 
> resins which can
> be made in the same color as teeth and have no dangerous by-products, as far 
> as I know.
> Having amalgams replaced with composite resins needs to be done very 
> carefully so that the
> patient and dentist are not exposed, or exposed minimally, to the vapors or 
> particles of amalgam.
> Peace & light, D. Mindock
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
>
>
>   
>> robert and benita rabello wrote:
>>
>> snipe
>>
>> 
>>>We've found very serious, deleterious effects of depleted uranium
>>> munitions on soldiers who served in the Gulf War.  That's a relatively
>>> small sample size when compared to the population of dental
>>> professionals in North America and Europe.  So, if we can diagnose our
>>> veterans on the basis of exposure to depleted uranium in the Gulf War,
>>> why are we UNABLE to provide similar results in a much larger population
>>> exposed to dental amalgam?
>>>
>>>   
>> Fillings do not contain depleted uranium and DU when it vaporizes on
>> impact and oxidizes into uranium trioxide is found to be a nano powder
>> which is something like 100,000 to 1 meeelion times more toxic than DU
>> is in a macro scale.  Gulf war syndrom has nothing to do with mercury in
>> fillings or vaccines.  But didn't I read years ago that there is a very
>> high suicide rate among dentists?  And you are asking why we don't see
>> wide spread health effects?  But these people are saying that many wide
>> spread problems ARE thought to be linked to mecury.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>> 
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining

[bob allen]

I put one gram of sulfur  (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and 
heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is 
soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel.   


Tonomár András wrote:
> I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace
> of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret)
>
> WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving
> Thank you in advance
>
> Kind reg.
> Andrew
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant
> andlubricatinginsteelmachining
>
>
> I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in
> non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect
> it would have some solubility in biodiesel.   Probably all you would
> need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the
> biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that
> when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur
> present  in another form.  If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a
> try. stay tuned.
>
> Another point, if "sulfurated"  biodiesel works, wouldn't "sulfurated"
> vegetable oil work just as well?
>
>   
>> I would but I don't do enough to matter.  I am not sure how they put
>> sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question?
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> 
>>> From: Tonomár András <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>> To: 
>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant
>>> andlubricatinginsteelmachining
>>> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100
>>>
>>> James,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your reply.
>>> Do you know how can I add sulfur?
>>> What was your final conclusion with the experiment?
>>> Do you still use it or not?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and
>>> lubricatinginsteelmachining
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the
>>>> 
>>> magic
>>>   
>>>> ingreadient to cutting oils.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>> To: 
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating
>>>>> insteelmachining
>>>>> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700
>>>>>
>>>>> It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used
>>>>>   
>>> some
>>> for
>>>   
>>>>> this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't'
>>>>>   
>>> have a
>>>   
>>>>> regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your
>>>>>   
>>> cutting oil
>>>   
>>>>> and one for biodiesel then compare the properties.  This can be a
>>>>>   
>>> guide
>>>   
>>>>> that will tell you what modifications you need to make.
>>>>>   - Original Message -
>>>>>   From: Tonomár András<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>   To:
>>>>>   
>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>>   
>>>>>   Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM
>>>>>   Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in
>>>>> steelmachining
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Dear list members,
>>>>>
>>>>>   Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as
>>>>>   
>>> coolant
>>>   
>>>>> and lubricating liquid?   Cutting oil prices are high in the sky (
>>>>>   
>>> $21 /
>>>   
>>>>> gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil.
>>>>>   
>>> We are
>>>   
>>>>> machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools

Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining

[bob allen]

I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in 
non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect 
it would have some solubility in biodiesel.   Probably all you would 
need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the 
biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that 
when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur 
present  in another form.  If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a 
try. stay tuned.

Another point, if "sulfurated"  biodiesel works, wouldn't "sulfurated" 
vegetable oil work just as well? 

> I would but I don't do enough to matter.  I am not sure how they put 
> sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question?
>
> Jim
>
>
>> From: Tonomár András <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant 
>> andlubricatinginsteelmachining
>> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100
>>
>> James,
>>
>> Thank you for your reply.
>> Do you know how can I add sulfur?
>> What was your final conclusion with the experiment?
>> Do you still use it or not?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and
>> lubricatinginsteelmachining
>>
>>
>> > Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the 
>> magic
>> > ingreadient to cutting oils.
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> > >To: 
>> > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating
>> > >insteelmachining
>> > >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700
>> > >
>> > >It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used 
>> some
>> for
>> > >this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' 
>> have a
>> > >regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your 
>> cutting oil
>> > >and one for biodiesel then compare the properties.  This can be a 
>> guide
>> > >that will tell you what modifications you need to make.
>> > >   - Original Message -
>> > >   From: Tonomár András<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > >   To: 
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>> > >   Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM
>> > >   Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in
>> > >steelmachining
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >   Dear list members,
>> > >
>> > >   Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as
>> coolant
>> > >and lubricating liquid?   Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( 
>> $21 /
>> > >gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. 
>> We are
>> > >machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid
>> steel
>> > >and normal HSS drills
>> > >
>> > >   My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my 
>> thoughts
>> are
>> > >on biodiesel.
>> > >
>> > >   We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have 
>> some
>> > >info in advance.
>> > >
>> > >   Kind regards,
>> > >   Andrew
>> > >
>> > >   ___
>> > >   Biofuel mailing list
>> > >   Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> > >
>> > 
>> >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org 
>>
>> > >
>> > >   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> > >   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> > >
>> > >   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> > >messages):
>> > >   http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > >___
>> > >Biofuel mailing list
>> > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> > 
>> >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or

Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra

[bob allen]

27;m not the only one
>>>>> I hope someday you'll join us
>>>>> And the world will be as one
>>>>>
>>>>> Imagine no possessions
>>>>> I wonder if you can
>>>>> No need for greed or hunger
>>>>> A brotherhood of man
>>>>> Imagine all the people
>>>>> Sharing all the world...
>>>>>
>>>>> You may say I'm a dreamer
>>>>> But I'm not the only one
>>>>> I hope someday you'll join us
>>>>> And the world will live as one
>>>>>
>>>>> Namasté & Peace to all, D. Mindock
>>>>>
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: M&K DuPree
>>>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:05 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi D...I really appreciate reading this...but you know what's 
>>>>>   
>> coming: "Show
>> 
>>>>> me the data!"
>>>>>  Aside from that, whatever might happen to society as a whole as a
>>>>> result of many individuals imagining a better world, what happens to the
>>>>> individual in the process of doing so is what matters most.
>>>>>  Along these lines, I was wondering: what if the List 
>>>>>   
>> adopted a prayer,
>> 
>>>>> something simple, just a few words, that each of us might remember and
>>>>> recite to ourselves at the same time each day.  Not that it would be the
>>>>> same time for everyone, but that each one would imagine and
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> recite it at the
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> same time day each day.  The List is global, so it is conceivable that at
>>>>> any given moment or during any given hour, the prayer would be 
>>>>>   
>> spoken, the
>> 
>>>>> "imaginal cells" appearing.  I have no idea what we might all say, but it
>>>>> seems the same words, certainly the same idea, being imagined 
>>>>>   
>> and spoken 24
>> 
>>>>> hours a day, can't do anything but be helpful, if not ultimately
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> for all the
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> peoples of the planet and of course the planet, certainly for the
>>>>> individuals participating in such a thing, each of them knowing they were
>>>>> being joined by so many others in doing so.  What do you think?  What do
>>>>> members of the List think?  Mike DuPree
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: D. Mindock
>>>>> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 11:52 AM
>>>>> Subject: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.thecupoftea.co.uk/newsletter/deepak.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Imagining a new state for humanity: the metaphor of imaginal cells
>>>>> Transformation sometimes can be drastic. There is no better example in
>>>>> nature to reflect this, than metamorphosis. This is exemplified 
>>>>>   
>> best in the
>> 
>>>>> transformation of a caterpillar into a butterfly - an incredible
>>>>> transformation in functionality, appearance, organization of
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> components, and
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> purpose - that transforms a gross-looking voracious, clumsy 
>>>>>   
>> crawling worm,
>> 
>>>>> into a subtle, gracious, flying creature of beauty.
>>>>> Biologists tell us that in the tissue of a caterpillar there are embedded
>>>>> cells that they call imaginal cells. They resonate at a different
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> frequency.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> They are so totally different from the other caterpillar cells, that the
>>>>> immune system of the worm thinks they are enemies and tries to
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> destroy them.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> But the new imaginal cells continue to appear, more and more of them!
>>>>> Eventually the caterpillar's immune system cannot destroy them 
>>>>>   
>> fast enough,
>> 
>>>>> and they become stronger, they connect, and connect, until they form a
>>>>> critical mass that realizes that their mission is to bring about
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> the amazing
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> birth of a butterfly out of the voracious caterpillar!
>>>>> In 1969 Margaret Mead said: "Never doubt that a small group of 
>>>>>   
>> thoughtful,
>> 
>>>>> committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that
>>>>> ever has". I firmly believe along with many others, that there is an
>>>>> evolutionary effervescence within the tissues of the 
>>>>>   
>> established society of
>> 
>>>>> today. That in spite of the prevailing clamor of fear, greed,
>>>>> over-consumption, and violence, expressed through the tissues of society,
>>>>> there is a coming together of the imaginal cells who are visioning a
>>>>> different world, a transformation, a metamorphosis.
>>>>> Uruguayan poet Mario Benedetti wrote "What would happen if one 
>>>>>   
>> day when we
>> 
>>>>> wake up we realize that we are the majority?" I say - The imaginal cells
>>>>> would rule and would make out a butterfly from a caterpillar world.
>>>>> This is the time of waking. Clusters of imaginal cells are gathering
>>>>> everywhere, they are beginning to recognize each other, they 
>>>>>   
>> are developing
>> 
>>>>> the orchestration tools for enhancing connectivity, to drive 
>>>>>   
>> the next stage
>> 
>>>>> of our human society into manifestation, to bring about a news 
>>>>>   
>> society that
>> 
>>>>> would compare to the present one as a butterfly with a caterpillar. A new
>>>>> dimension of life, a compassionate and just society, a humanity rooted in
>>>>> joy and mutual understanding. You are all imaginal cells join the others,
>>>>> cluster, congregate, and lets all together build an Alliance for a New
>>>>> Humanity.
>>>>>   
>  
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra

[bob allen]

gt;>Eventually the caterpillar's immune system cannot destroy them fast 
> enough,
> >>and they become stronger, they connect, and connect, until they form a
> >>critical mass that realizes that their mission is to bring about the 
> amazing
> >>birth of a butterfly out of the voracious caterpillar!
> >>In 1969 Margaret Mead said: "Never doubt that a small group of 
> thoughtful,
> >>committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing 
> that
> >>ever has". I firmly believe along with many others, that there is an
> >>evolutionary effervescence within the tissues of the established 
> society of
> >>today. That in spite of the prevailing clamor of fear, greed,
> >>over-consumption, and violence, expressed through the tissues of 
> society,
> >>there is a coming together of the imaginal cells who are visioning a
> >>different world, a transformation, a metamorphosis.
> >>Uruguayan poet Mario Benedetti wrote "What would happen if one day 
> when we
> >>wake up we realize that we are the majority?" I say - The imaginal cells
> >>would rule and would make out a butterfly from a caterpillar world.
> >>This is the time of waking. Clusters of imaginal cells are gathering
> >>everywhere, they are beginning to recognize each other, they are 
> developing
> >>the orchestration tools for enhancing connectivity, to drive the 
> next stage
> >>of our human society into manifestation, to bring about a news 
> society that
> >>would compare to the present one as a butterfly with a caterpillar. 
> A new
> >>dimension of life, a compassionate and just society, a humanity 
> rooted in
> >>joy and mutual understanding. You are all imaginal cells join the 
> others,
> >>cluster, congregate, and lets all together build an Alliance for a New
> >>Humanity.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> > 
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> 
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


___
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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

richard tandiono supardi wrote:
> ("I know, I'm a firm believer in physical reality, and thats where I get in 
> trouble with those who accept supernatural explanations of natural 
> phenomena.")
> ->That's probably because some people are open-minded. By saying impossible, 
> we limit our perception on things and deny any other possibilities. Let's 
> face it, we dont know much about this world; What we see, it's limited to 
> our perception. Ages ago, walking on the moon = impossible! but now = oh 
> okay, big deal.
>
> Question: What's considered physical reality?
what I can measure
>  Where's the limit?
>   

the sensitivity of my equiptment

> Good day,
> Rick
>
>   
>> From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 
>> Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
>> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:24:26 -0500
>>
>>
>>
>> bob allen wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Joe Street wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful there 
>>>> Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot.  If you are saying that there 
>>>> is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 times) ( is that 
>>>> like tapping the heels of your shoes three times?.lol) well then how 
>>>> can NOTHING do SOMETHING?  Harm or otherwise?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the outcome.
>>>
>>>   
>> So you are admitting that the mind is a part of reality and not just a part 
>> but a part which has substantial power to effect an outcome. But where is 
>> the evidence of the mind?  I don't know of any scientific experiment which 
>> has detected it.  You can cross section any lobe of my brain and I 
>> guarantee you will not find any trace of my mind.  It would seem then from 
>> a scientific, hard evidence perspective that the mind does not have a 
>> physical reality. And yet it has a very real power to affect reality. Hmm. 
>> You said in a previous post:
>> "
>>
>> I know, I'm a firm believer in physical reality, and thats where I get in 
>> trouble with those who accept supernatural explanations of natural 
>> phenomena."
>>
>> But you believe the placebo effect is real.  I think that's called a 
>> circular argument isn't it?
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>> 
>>> that is what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to 
>>> do double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy.  What ever 
>>> effect  a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo effect, 
>>> as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> bob allen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>> In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and 
>>>>>> with no adverse side effects/toxicology.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> checkout the nocebo effect  numerous examples of harm.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>> In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation 
>>>>>> produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> actually it can be.  see above
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>> More than can be said of many pharma nostrums.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Kirk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>D. Mindock wrote:
>>>>>>> Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your
>>>>>>quackwatch
>>>>>>> routine.
>>>>>>> 

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

richard tandiono supardi wrote:
>
> *scratch head*
> ("Whatever effect a homeopathic nostrum does must be occuring via a 
> placebo effect, as it can't be due to chemical which is no longer there")
> ->I'm just curious, How do u know it's no longer there?
>

simple math, using the duck liver as an example:  the initial 
concentration is 35 gm/100 ml.  this is diluted 100 fold , 200 times 
resulting in a concentration then  35gm/10 ^400 . A single hydrogen  
atom has a mass of  1.66 10^ -24   .  The final concentration is 35 
10^-400.  Hence to find a single atom of hydrogen (from the duck liver)  
you would have to have a volume of 10^396 ml, which is a volume I 
haven't calculated but  bet  much greater that the volume of our solar 
system.


> ("That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid")
> ("so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do 
> something?")
> ->maybe because we lack information? or lacking prerequisite knowledge? :D
>

that is what I am trying do.  Provide the information so that people 
realize what homeopathy is. 

>
> About data. It's true that having data is better than not. But I think 
> it depends on the nature of the data itself. The problem with data is 
> that it's connected directly to the observers' abilities+knowledge. So 
> there's always ? variables that the data don't cover, hence the data 
> could be inaccurate or even misleading.
>
> ("So what you are saying that because I can't prove that it doesnt 
> work, means that it does?")
> -> Nope, it's just mean it could work ^_^.  No--+--Yes
>
> Advice: Relax dont need to get personal on this. It's just discussion.
> Note: Sry if what I wrote is far off from the discussion, I dont 
> understand most of what u guys talking about here hehe. I'm 
> confused why I read this lot in Biofuel group discussion.. am i 
> missing something? :S
>
> Have a nice day, 
> Rick  
>
> 
> From:  /"Marylynn Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/
> Reply-To:  /biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> To:  /biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> Subject:  /Re: [Biofuel]
> Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)/
> Date:  /Thu, 02 Nov 2006 16:49:11 +/
> >PLACEBO EFFECT .. ANIMALS/PLACEBO EFFECT .. ANIMALS   /  
> PLACEBO
> >EFFECT .. ANIMALS
> >
> >Mary Lynn
> >Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
> >ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
> >TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior
> Modification .
> >Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy
> Practitioner
> >. Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity .
> >The Animal Connection Healing Modalities
> >http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/
> >http://allcreatureconnections.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
> > >Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials
> asEvidence)
> > >Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:24:19 -0600
> > >
> > >Joe Street wrote:
> > > > ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer
> hand'...careful
> > > > there Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot.  If you are
> saying
> > > > that there is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and
> repeating it 3
> > > > times) ( is that like tapping the heels of your shoes three
> > > > times?.lol) well then how can NOTHING do SOMETHING?  Harm or
> > > > otherwise?
> > >
> > >the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the
> outcome.  that is
> > >what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to do
> > >double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy.  What ever
> > >effect  a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo
> > >effect, as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer
> there.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Joe
> > > >
> > > > bob allen wrote:
> > > >> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> In many trials the pl

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

Hey Joe,

Joe Street wrote:
>
>
> bob allen wrote:
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>   
>>> ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful 
>>> there Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot.  If you are saying 
>>> that there is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 
>>> times) ( is that like tapping the heels of your shoes three 
>>> times?.lol) well then how can NOTHING do SOMETHING?  Harm or 
>>> otherwise?
>>> 
>>
>> the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the outcome.  
> So you are admitting that the mind is a part of reality and not just a 
> part but a part which has substantial power to effect an outcome.

of course, I have never said otherwise, in fact I continue to repeat it 
as a mantra- placebo controlled...

> But where is the evidence of the mind?

I guess that depends on a definition of mind- how about electrical 
activity in the brain?

> I don't know of any scientific experiment which has detected it.  

positron emission tomography, MRI, etc?

> You can cross section any lobe of my brain and I guarantee you will 
> not find any trace of my mind.  It would seem then from a scientific, 
> hard evidence perspective that the mind does not have a physical 
> reality. And yet it has a very real power to affect reality. Hmm. 

I don't have to detect "the mind" to measure it's effects.  for example 
several experiments have shown that in cases where a placebo is reported 
to diminish pain, that what is in reality  happening is an unconscious  
release of endorphins.  Other measurable effects of the mind include  
somewhat disturbing data that depressed people have a much higher 
incidence of numerous diseases, including cancer.  this is probably 
mediated via an endocrine-immune system interaction. One really neat 
example of mind/body interaction (ever so measurable) is the fact that 
an immune response can be triggered via  Pavlovian training.  In the 
experiment, rats were challenged with an allergen and at the same time a 
bell rang.  The then measured the release of histamine, characteristic 
of a immune response.  After training, only the ringing of the bell was 
necessary to produce the histamine release, no allergen needed.  weird 
huh? but not supernatural . 


> You said in a previous post:
> "
> I know, I'm a firm believer in physical reality, and thats where I get 
> in trouble with those who accept supernatural explanations of natural 
> phenomena."
>
> But you believe the placebo effect is real.  I think that's called a circular 
> argument isn't it?
>
> Joe
>   
no,  vide supra


toodles
>
>> that is 
>> what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to do 
>> double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy.  What ever 
>> effect  a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo 
>> effect, as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer there.
>>
>>   
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>>> In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and 
>>>>> with no adverse side effects/toxicology.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> checkout the nocebo effect  numerous examples of harm. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>>> In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation 
>>>>> produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> actually it can be.  see above
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>>> More than can be said of many pharma nostrums.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> Kirk
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>>> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>>> > Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your
>>>>> quackwatch
>>>>> > routine.
>>>>> > Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices
>>>>> is silly of
>>>>> > me to
>>>>> > ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or "science".
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our
>>>>> positions. I seek rational explanations and repro

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

Howdy Gustl

Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote:
> Hallo Joe,
>
> Thursday, 02 November, 2006, 10:05:46, you wrote:
>
> JS> ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful there 
> JS> Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot.  If you are saying that there 
> JS> is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 times) ( is that 
> JS> like tapping the heels of your shoes three times?.lol) well then how 
> JS> can NOTHING do SOMETHING?  Harm or otherwise?
>
> JS> Joe
>
> It's  worse  than  that  Joe.  He  demands  data  on  the  efficacy of
> homeopathic  products  stating that the work to falsify homeopathy has
> been done but provides zero data to falsify homeopathy as a legitimate
> method  of  treatment.

so your saying that because I can't prove that it doesn't work, means 
that it does? 


here is what I can prove:  the dilutions employed in homeopathy are such 
that there is nothing left of the agent (the duck liver for example) in 
the final product.  Logic alone would suggest then that the duck liver 
has no effect on the outcome of the use of the product, unless you 
accept that the water remembered the duck liver, and this was transfered 
to the filler in the capsule taken.  One, I would think, has to suspend 
any connection to reality to believe that the water remembers what was 
in it.  

toodles


>  Evidently he hasn't heard that what is good for
> the goose is good for the gander or of logical debate for that matter.
> If  he  had  anything other than an opinion he would provide it but it
> isn't  in  any  of  his mails nor will it ever be because the work has
> apparently  not  been  done.  I haven't followed this thread but would
> like  to  know  if he has cited any hard data or has he only cited the
> opinions of some scientists or nothing at all. Homeopathy has not been
> falsified  because  either no one has taken the trouble to do it or it
> works  is  what  it  looks  like.  His  "science"  is  as  hard as the
> testimonies  he  decries and his data against homeopathy is as lacking
> as  the hard data for it. Some folks just like to talk for the sake of
> talking.
>
> Happy Happy,
>
> Gustl
>
> JS> bob allen wrote:
>
>   
>>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>>   
>>>> In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and 
>>>> with no adverse side effects/toxicology.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> checkout the nocebo effect  numerous examples of harm. 
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>   
>>>> In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation 
>>>> produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> actually it can be.  see above
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>   
>>>> More than can be said of many pharma nostrums.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> Kirk
>>>  
>>>
>>>   
>>>> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>>
>>>>D. Mindock wrote:
>>>>> Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your
>>>>quackwatch
>>>>> routine.
>>>>> Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices
>>>>is silly of
>>>>> me to
>>>>> ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or "science".
>>>>
>>>>I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our
>>>>positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and
>>>>you accept testimony.
>>>>
>>>>> You have
>>>>> your
>>>>> thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science
>>>>is only a
>>>>> method, a tool,
>>>>
>>>>agreeed
>>>>
>>>>> to get something believed to have a chance of being true to
>>>>> be
>>>>> verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the
>>>>> hypothesis in
>>>>> the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite
>>>>some time.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not
>>>>homeopathy.
>>&g

Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra

[bob allen]

M&K DuPree wrote:
> James...Bob is being facetious and a fathead.  Not judging, just 
> noting.  Mike DuPree

   name calling, an effective way to win hearts and minds...

>  
> - Original Message -
> From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
>
> > Bob,
> > While your at it be sure to spit it out on your hands and feet - Its 
> also
> > supposed to cure cracked chapped skin, Please excuse me I must go 
> brush and
> > gargle with peroxide and baking soda I'm just to big a coward to use 
> urine
> > for anything but Compost activator.  Sorry to sound skeptical Bob 
> but I have
> > to drw the line somewhere.
> > ;^)
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> >>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
> >>Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 08:32:06 -0600
> >>
> >>Ah yes, Deepak Chopra, promoter of Ayuvedic medicine, where it is 
> thought
> >>that the consumption of
> >>your urine is medically beneficial.
> >>
> >>Nothing like a warm cup of piss to start the day...:0
> >>
> >>http://www.indiangyan.com/books/therapybooks/Uropathy/my_personal_experiments.shtml
> >>
> >>
> >>Once during my lecture, one gentleman rose from the audience and 
> asked me
> >>"Mr. Thakkar, you are
> >>talking so highly about urine treatment for all tooth problems, but my
> >>experience is otherwise with
> >>it. I am washing my mouth with urine since two years, still I have 
> lost my
> >>two teeth and the third
> >>one is loose and is on the verge of going." I asked him, "How long 
> you you
> >>rinse your mouth with
> >>urine?" His reply was "for a minute or two". The defect in the 
> treatment
> >>was detected instantly. One
> >>has to fill his or her mouth with fresh urine for ten minutes so 
> that it
> >>can be absorbed by the gums
> >>and would reach the roots of the teeth. He informed me after few 
> days that
> >>his teeth had become all
> >>right with my technique within a week. During last ten years 
> thousands of
> >>people have vouched the
> >>efficacy of U.T. on teeth and gum problems of various types.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>D. Mindock wrote:
> >> > Mike,
> >> > I am glad you liked the article. We need to be agents of change, to
> >> > transform the
> >> > planet into one where peace and caring prevail. As individuals we 
> need
> >>to
> >> > become
> >> > peaceful within ourselves, then we can radiate peace everywhere. 
> Prayer
> >>and
> >> > continous positive affirmations can help rewire ourselves to a 
> peaceful
> >> > state.
> >> > WRT a standard prayer for the list, how about: In peace I journey to
> >> > forever.
> >> > Visioning peace & becoming peace, individually, is a milestone on 
> the
> >>way.
> >> > We do each create reality for ourselves. Imagining this world as one
> >>where
> >> > peace exists in
> >> > each individual and between countries should make it happen, to 
> become
> >> > real for each of us; the idea here is that when a critical number of
> >>people
> >> > are at peace internally
> >> > then the rest will be entrained and switch over easily. So we must
> >>become
> >> > peace so
> >> > that we can project it. We are electrical creatures.
> >> > People like Dubya and Cheney are not at peace within themselves, 
> imo.
> >>That
> >> > is why it is
> >> > so easy for them to advocate war and attack the environment. They see
> >> > scarcity where there is abundance.
> >> >  But they could not do the tragic things they do without lots of
> >>like-minded
> >> > people.
> >> > So we imaginers have to get busy.
> >> >
> >> > John Lennon's Imagine seems to be appropriate here.
> >> >
> >> > Imagine there's no he

Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra

[bob allen]

 recite it at the
>> 
>>> same time day each day.  The List is global, so it is conceivable that at
>>> any given moment or during any given hour, the prayer would be spoken, the
>>> "imaginal cells" appearing.  I have no idea what we might all say, but it
>>> seems the same words, certainly the same idea, being imagined and spoken 24
>>> hours a day, can't do anything but be helpful, if not ultimately 
>>>   
>> for all the
>> 
>>> peoples of the planet and of course the planet, certainly for the
>>> individuals participating in such a thing, each of them knowing they were
>>> being joined by so many others in doing so.  What do you think?  What do
>>> members of the List think?  Mike DuPree
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: D. Mindock
>>> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 11:52 AM
>>> Subject: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.thecupoftea.co.uk/newsletter/deepak.html
>>>
>>> Imagining a new state for humanity: the metaphor of imaginal cells
>>> Transformation sometimes can be drastic. There is no better example in
>>> nature to reflect this, than metamorphosis. This is exemplified best in the
>>> transformation of a caterpillar into a butterfly - an incredible
>>> transformation in functionality, appearance, organization of 
>>>   
>> components, and
>> 
>>> purpose - that transforms a gross-looking voracious, clumsy crawling worm,
>>> into a subtle, gracious, flying creature of beauty.
>>> Biologists tell us that in the tissue of a caterpillar there are embedded
>>> cells that they call imaginal cells. They resonate at a different 
>>>   
>> frequency.
>> 
>>> They are so totally different from the other caterpillar cells, that the
>>> immune system of the worm thinks they are enemies and tries to 
>>>   
>> destroy them.
>> 
>>> But the new imaginal cells continue to appear, more and more of them!
>>> Eventually the caterpillar's immune system cannot destroy them fast enough,
>>> and they become stronger, they connect, and connect, until they form a
>>> critical mass that realizes that their mission is to bring about 
>>>   
>> the amazing
>> 
>>> birth of a butterfly out of the voracious caterpillar!
>>> In 1969 Margaret Mead said: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
>>> committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that
>>> ever has". I firmly believe along with many others, that there is an
>>> evolutionary effervescence within the tissues of the established society of
>>> today. That in spite of the prevailing clamor of fear, greed,
>>> over-consumption, and violence, expressed through the tissues of society,
>>> there is a coming together of the imaginal cells who are visioning a
>>> different world, a transformation, a metamorphosis.
>>> Uruguayan poet Mario Benedetti wrote "What would happen if one day when we
>>> wake up we realize that we are the majority?" I say - The imaginal cells
>>> would rule and would make out a butterfly from a caterpillar world.
>>> This is the time of waking. Clusters of imaginal cells are gathering
>>> everywhere, they are beginning to recognize each other, they are developing
>>> the orchestration tools for enhancing connectivity, to drive the next stage
>>> of our human society into manifestation, to bring about a news society that
>>> would compare to the present one as a butterfly with a caterpillar. A new
>>> dimension of life, a compassionate and just society, a humanity rooted in
>>> joy and mutual understanding. You are all imaginal cells join the others,
>>> cluster, congregate, and lets all together build an Alliance for a New
>>> Humanity.
>>>
>>>   
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


___
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http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra

[bob allen]

M&K DuPree wrote:
> Bob...I gotta be honest, it's fatheads like you that really piss off 
> fatheads

am I not supposed to feel offended if you offend yourself? 


> like me and maybe that's why hope for anything but misery generally on 
> this planet is all there really can be.  Nonetheless, it's also 
> fatheads like you that make fatheads like me take note that whatever 
> hope for anything beyond misery generally on this planet that there 
> may be must first be imagined and felt individually.  So thanks...
glad  I could be of assistance


> for the opportunity to strengthen my resolve for hope and peace and 
> light and love within myself and just generally giving a damn about 
> what really matters
I agree entirely

> even if there is no data prove it.

uh, if you have no data, how do you know it matters?

> Mike DuPree  PS Bob, there is also something called critical reading.  
> It's basically about understanding both the context and content of 
> what is written.  Your response indicates you have not learned how to 
> read critically.  Amazing, since you are the one who keeps advocating 
> "Show me the data!"  No doubt, you have been "blinded by the light."  
> Not unusual.  It's a common problem, due in large part to a major 
> shortage of teachers who know how to do same much less teach it.  Hang 
> in there, buddy.  Fortunately our immediate destinies are all the 
> same...the grave.  Beyond that, of course, who knows.  I'm confident, 
> however, if it turns out to be something other than nothing, you'll 
> get the help you need to grow beyond your pain.
pain?  not here,  generally I enjoy life and seek peace and love just 
like the next guy.
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
>
> > Ah yes, Deepak Chopra, promoter of Ayuvedic medicine, where it is 
> thought that the consumption of
> > your urine is medically beneficial.
> >
> > Nothing like a warm cup of piss to start the day...:0
> >
> > 
> http://www.indiangyan.com/books/therapybooks/Uropathy/my_personal_experiments.shtml
> >
> >
> > Once during my lecture, one gentleman rose from the audience and 
> asked me "Mr. Thakkar, you are
> > talking so highly about urine treatment for all tooth problems, but 
> my experience is otherwise with
> > it. I am washing my mouth with urine since two years, still I have 
> lost my two teeth and the third
> > one is loose and is on the verge of going." I asked him, "How long 
> you you rinse your mouth with
> > urine?" His reply was "for a minute or two". The defect in the 
> treatment was detected instantly. One
> > has to fill his or her mouth with fresh urine for ten minutes so 
> that it can be absorbed by the gums
> > and would reach the roots of the teeth. He informed me after few 
> days that his teeth had become all
> > right with my technique within a week. During last ten years 
> thousands of people have vouched the
> > efficacy of U.T. on teeth and gum problems of various types.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > D. Mindock wrote:
> >> Mike,
> >> I am glad you liked the article. We need to be agents of change, to
> >> transform the
> >> planet into one where peace and caring prevail. As individuals we 
> need to
> >> become
> >> peaceful within ourselves, then we can radiate peace everywhere. 
> Prayer and
> >> continous positive affirmations can help rewire ourselves to a 
> peaceful
> >> state.
> >> WRT a standard prayer for the list, how about: In peace I journey to
> >> forever.
> >> Visioning peace & becoming peace, individually, is a milestone on 
> the way.
> >> We do each create reality for ourselves. Imagining this world as 
> one where
> >> peace exists in
> >> each individual and between countries should make it happen, to become
> >> real for each of us; the idea here is that when a critical number 
> of people
> >> are at peace internally
> >> then the rest will be entrained and switch over easily. So we must 
> become
> >> peace so
> >> that we can project it. We are electrical creatures.
> >> People like Dubya and Cheney are not at peace within themselves, 
> imo. That
> >> is why it is
> >> so easy for them to advocate war and attack the environment. They see
> >> scarcity where there is abundanc

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

Joe Street wrote:
> ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful 
> there Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot.  If you are saying 
> that there is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 
> times) ( is that like tapping the heels of your shoes three 
> times?.lol) well then how can NOTHING do SOMETHING?  Harm or 
> otherwise?

the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the outcome.  that is 
what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to do 
double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy.  What ever 
effect  a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo 
effect, as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer there.

>
> Joe
>
> bob allen wrote:
>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>   
>>> In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and 
>>> with no adverse side effects/toxicology.
>>> 
>>
>> checkout the nocebo effect  numerous examples of harm. 
>>
>>
>>   
>>> In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation 
>>> produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic.
>>>     
>>
>> actually it can be.  see above
>>
>>   
>>> More than can be said of many pharma nostrums.
>>> 
>>
>> Kirk
>>   
>>> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> > Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your
>>> quackwatch
>>> > routine.
>>> > Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices
>>> is silly of
>>> > me to
>>> > ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or "science".
>>>
>>> I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our
>>> positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and
>>> you accept testimony.
>>>
>>> > You have
>>> > your
>>> > thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science
>>> is only a
>>> > method, a tool,
>>>
>>> agreeed
>>>
>>> > to get something believed to have a chance of being true to
>>> > be
>>> > verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the
>>> > hypothesis in
>>> > the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite
>>> some time.
>>> >
>>>
>>> no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not
>>> homeopathy.
>>>
>>> > That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid.
>>>
>>> so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do
>>> something?
>>>
>>> > Science
>>> > is merely a method.
>>>
>>> agreed
>>>
>>> > Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that.
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense.
>>> But if
>>> you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who
>>> apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that
>>> silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this
>>> works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.?
>>>
>>> > Peace and light, D. Mindock
>>> >
>>> > - Original Message -
>>> > From: "bob allen"
>>> > To:
>>> > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
>>> > Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of
>>> homeopathy. This
>>> >> is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the
>>> >> planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something
>>> which
>>> >> causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by
>>> >> something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme.
>>> Substances are
>>> >> diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this
>>> concentration there
>

Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth

[bob allen]

Joe Street wrote:
> Alright so my point is that mercury vapour is toxic.

the problem Joe is that the word toxic is meaningless without exposure 
information (as you yourself allude to below).  It is common sense that 
less harm will result from  less exposure of a toxin.

> I have had dentists tell me the mercury is locked up safely by the 
> silver in the amalgam and that makes it safe because it can't get in 
> your body.  

so how about this- considering the amount and vapor pressure of Mercury 
and the fact that metallic mercury is poorly absorbed in the body 
suggests that damage due to this level of exposure is minimal.  This is 
born out via epidimiological data accumulated over several decades.  Of 
course science is  self correcting so if data showing harm at this level 
of exposure is presented, then I will change my tune.  And yes there can 
be flawed data or ourright fraud, concerning the risks of dental 
amalgam, but I just don't see a reason why.  Actually a dentist woulld 
make money by  a) not repairing minor cavities- hence more costs down 
the line,  or b) using more expensive reconstruction materials.   And 
remember alternative construction materials, with shorter track records 
for safety and efficacy, may put you at greater risk.  (the law of 
unintended consequences)


> This one guy went on to say that mercury is a lot less toxic than the 
> paranoia suggests.  He cited examples of kids chewing thermometers and 
> swallowing liquid mercury which is passed with no ill effect.  On the 
> surface this may seem true enough, and sure I have held a pool of 
> quicksilver in my hand as a lad and had fun playing with it.  Didn't 
> drop dead.  It's the vapour which gets you right?  Just don't heat it 
> right?  But mercury does have some vapour pressure at room temperature 
> just as any liquid does.  The spectrometer will detect it in your 
> breath so yes mercury vapour does come out of the amalgam fillings in 
> my teeth.
but is the exposure significant?  And for that matter what is a 
significant risk?  how much do you want to spend to mitigate risk? 



> The MSDS doesn't give much info on what SUBTLE effects result from 
> very low level exposure over a lifetime.

true enough

> There is a funny thing I notice around here with the science faculty.  
> Whenever the subject of exposure to traces comes up there is this 
> reaction which is typically a tilt of the head and a shrug of the 
> shoulders combined with the sound of air escaping from the nostrils. I 
> don't know if this is some kind of stoicism or what but it is as if 
> the person is saying 'yeah it's true a LOT of chemists die of cancer 
> in their middle age, but nothing can be done about this'.

or perhaps scientists have a keener sense of relative risk?

> Or is it a suggestion that they believe something along the lines of 
> 'yeah but not me' I don't get it, but it is quite common amongst 
> people who make their living in that field.  On the other hand I have 
> been told that the process of removal results in a dose over the short 
> term which is higher than the dose recieved if they are left alone 
> over the long term.

I have seen studies to the effect that the body burden of mercury rises 
after the removal process. 


> I don't know which is worse or what to believe at this point and that 
> is where it sits unfortunately.

life's a bitch, and then you die.

> I'm leaving them alone, unless they get loose and need to be removed 
> for that reason.

probably the prudent thing to do based on currently available data, right?

>
> Joe
>
> bob allen wrote:
>> Cool, but not surprising.  I few years ago I was looking at the mercury 
>> content of  bream in the Ozarks.  (found it to be well under a ppm 
>> generally via cold vapor fluorescence)  I did the analysis in a state 
>> lab in Little Rock. technique was so sensitive that the mercury analysis 
>> was shut down for a week because a guy broke a thermometer in a lab in 
>> the same building as the lab I worked in but hundreds of feet away, 
>> which swamped the detector.  
>>
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>   
>>> Hey Bob;
>>>
>>> I know this guy here at the U and he makes these micro mass specs.  
>>> Turns out the increase in sensitivity is non linear with the decrease 
>>> in physical size of the analyzer.  So as it turns out if a sample of 
>>> exhaled breath is analyzed he can make a pretty good guess how many 
>>> fillings you have in your head based on mercury loading.
>>> Here is his site:
>>>
>>> http://orchard.uwaterloo.ca/
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>> 
>

Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra

[bob allen]

t do you think?  What do 
> members of the List think?  Mike DuPree
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: D. Mindock
> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 11:52 AM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
> 
> 
> http://www.thecupoftea.co.uk/newsletter/deepak.html
> 
> Imagining a new state for humanity: the metaphor of imaginal cells
> Transformation sometimes can be drastic. There is no better example in 
> nature to reflect this, than metamorphosis. This is exemplified best in the 
> transformation of a caterpillar into a butterfly - an incredible 
> transformation in functionality, appearance, organization of components, and 
> purpose - that transforms a gross-looking voracious, clumsy crawling worm, 
> into a subtle, gracious, flying creature of beauty.
> Biologists tell us that in the tissue of a caterpillar there are embedded 
> cells that they call imaginal cells. They resonate at a different frequency. 
> They are so totally different from the other caterpillar cells, that the 
> immune system of the worm thinks they are enemies and tries to destroy them. 
> But the new imaginal cells continue to appear, more and more of them! 
> Eventually the caterpillar's immune system cannot destroy them fast enough, 
> and they become stronger, they connect, and connect, until they form a 
> critical mass that realizes that their mission is to bring about the amazing 
> birth of a butterfly out of the voracious caterpillar!
> In 1969 Margaret Mead said: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, 
> committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that 
> ever has". I firmly believe along with many others, that there is an 
> evolutionary effervescence within the tissues of the established society of 
> today. That in spite of the prevailing clamor of fear, greed, 
> over-consumption, and violence, expressed through the tissues of society, 
> there is a coming together of the imaginal cells who are visioning a 
> different world, a transformation, a metamorphosis.
> Uruguayan poet Mario Benedetti wrote "What would happen if one day when we 
> wake up we realize that we are the majority?" I say - The imaginal cells 
> would rule and would make out a butterfly from a caterpillar world.
> This is the time of waking. Clusters of imaginal cells are gathering 
> everywhere, they are beginning to recognize each other, they are developing 
> the orchestration tools for enhancing connectivity, to drive the next stage 
> of our human society into manifestation, to bring about a news society that 
> would compare to the present one as a butterfly with a caterpillar. A new 
> dimension of life, a compassionate and just society, a humanity rooted in 
> joy and mutual understanding. You are all imaginal cells join the others, 
> cluster, congregate, and lets all together build an Alliance for a New 
> Humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth

[bob allen]

N=1 , now there is a powerful statistic!


Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> A lady from Seattle had MS and had the silver/mercury fillings removed 
> from her teeth and her disease went away.  She was interviewed on a TV 
> documentary about this story.  The mercury safety issue is much like 
> alluminum, flouride and other chemicals.  They are dangerous but money 
> seems to be a trump card but people only interested in health have 
> identified these chemicals as being hazzardous to our health.
>
> Terry Dyck
>
>
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth
>> Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:30:51 -0600
>>
>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>> > Yes and vapor levels above EPA industrial safety levels are ok Just
>> > ask Bob
>>
>> nope never said such thing. Hear is the osha level under which there is
>> noe (no observable effect)
>>
>> ** Mercury: 0.05 mg/m3 TWA (vapor)
>>
>> twa is a time weighted average.
>>
>>
>> now can you show me data that that level is exceeded by my fillings?
>>
>> show me the data,  not palitudes, and please refrain from trying to put
>> words in my mouth.  I will speak for me and you can speak for you OK?
>>
>> > or the ADA.
>> > Kirk
>> >
>> > */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>> >
>> > Hey Bob;
>> >
>> > I know this guy here at the U and he makes these micro mass
>> > specs.  Turns out the increase in sensitivity is non linear with
>> > the decrease in physical size of the analyzer.  So as it turns out
>> > if a sample of exhaled breath is analyzed he can make a pretty
>> > good guess how many fillings you have in your head based on
>> > mercury loading.
>> > Here is his site:
>> >
>> > http://orchard.uwaterloo.ca/
>> >
>> > Joe
>> >
>> > bob allen wrote:
>> >> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>> >>> When one considers what
>> >>>  would happen to dentistry should they admit   mercury is 
>> actually toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth
>> >>   the data don't support your claim, plain and simple.
>> >>> we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either 
>> the EPA   is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways.
>> >>   yes you can if you know a little chemistry.  The the 
>> absorption,   distibution, metabolism and excretion  (toxicology) of 
>> the different   forms of mercury vary considerably
>> >>> Frankly I think the toxicity of mercury has been proven and 
>> the   tobacco industry style argumentation and bogus literature only 
>> fools   the gullible or those with such a pc mindset they cant see 
>> the emperor   is naked.  The tobacco settlement would be a pittance 
>> compared to the dental   industry liability.
>> >>>
>> >>   would be? why not will be?  If there is money to be made, 
>> why isn't   someone making it? Maybe because the data aren't there to 
>> support the   claim?
>> >>> People will kill for far less so for them to tell a lie is to 
>> be   expected. I would be gob smacked if they didnt. Kirk
>> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:or see
>> http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.htmlSince the 
>> 1990s, FDA and other government agencies (CDC, NIH) have  
>> reviewed the scientific literature looking for links between 
>> dental  amalgams and health problems. To date, the agencies have 
>> found no  scientific studies that demonstrate dental amalgams 
>> harm children or  adults. But we continue to review the 
>> literature and ask
>> >>>  experts  their  opinions on the safety of dental 
>> amalgam.
>> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1996/1996_63_e.html
>> The statement states that current evidence does not indicate that
>>   dental  amalgam is causing illness in the general population. 
>> It also says  that  a ban is not justified, and neither is 
>> the removal of existing sound  amalgam fillings.
>> etc.  D. Mindock wrote:  >  >  >  > When 
>> your dentist tells you not to worry about the amalgam he  wants 
>> to  > put into your  > cavity or roo

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and 
> with no adverse side effects/toxicology.

checkout the nocebo effect  numerous examples of harm. 


> In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation 
> produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic.

actually it can be.  see above

> More than can be said of many pharma nostrums.

Kirk
>
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
> > Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your
> quackwatch
> > routine.
> > Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices
> is silly of
> > me to
> > ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or "science".
>
> I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our
> positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and
> you accept testimony.
>
> > You have
> > your
> > thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science
> is only a
> > method, a tool,
>
> agreeed
>
> > to get something believed to have a chance of being true to
> > be
> > verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the
> > hypothesis in
> > the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite
> some time.
> >
>
> no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not
> homeopathy.
>
> > That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid.
>
> so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do
> something?
>
> > Science
> > is merely a method.
>
> agreed
>
> > Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that.
> >
>
>
> who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense.
> But if
> you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who
> apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that
> silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this
> works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.?
>
> > Peace and light, D. Mindock
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "bob allen"
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
> > Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
> >
> >
> >
> >> Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of
> homeopathy. This
> >> is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the
> >> planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something
> which
> >> causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by
> >> something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme.
> Substances are
> >> diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this
> concentration there
> >> is nothing left at all. A little critical thinking goes a long
> way here.
> >>
> >> There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible
> evidence
> >> for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes- it is nonsense.
> >>
> >> Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
> >>
> >>> Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth ..
> >>>
> >>> We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a
> dentist for
> >>> bone
> >>> re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a
> separation of self
> >>> as
> >>> seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the
> dermatologist for
> >>> skin
> >>> problems, etc
> >>>
> >>> Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the
> whole ..
> >>> nothing
> >>> is going to exist in isolation inside the human physical body.
> >>>
> >>> Do you know a good herbalist? I'm thinking something missing
> .. but if
> >>> you
> >>> have some level of toxic substance as a core problem (don't we
> all), then
> >>> homeopathy could be the road.
> >>>
> >>> Mary Lynn
> >>> Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
> >>> ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
> >>

Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> Yes and vapor levels above EPA industrial safety levels are ok Just 
> ask Bob

nope never said such thing. Hear is the osha level under which there is 
noe (no observable effect)

** Mercury: 0.05 mg/m3 TWA (vapor)

twa is a time weighted average. 


now can you show me data that that level is exceeded by my fillings? 

show me the data,  not palitudes, and please refrain from trying to put 
words in my mouth.  I will speak for me and you can speak for you OK?

> or the ADA.
> Kirk
>
> */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Hey Bob;
>
> I know this guy here at the U and he makes these micro mass
> specs.  Turns out the increase in sensitivity is non linear with
> the decrease in physical size of the analyzer.  So as it turns out
> if a sample of exhaled breath is analyzed he can make a pretty
> good guess how many fillings you have in your head based on
> mercury loading.
> Here is his site:
>
>     http://orchard.uwaterloo.ca/
>
> Joe
>
> bob allen wrote:
>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>> When one considers what
>>>  would happen to dentistry should they admit   mercury is actually 
>>> toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth  
>>   the data don't support your claim, plain and simple.  
>>> we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either the EPA   
>>> is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways.  
>>   yes you can if you know a little chemistry.  The the absorption,   
>> distibution, metabolism and excretion  (toxicology) of the different   forms 
>> of mercury vary considerably
>>> Frankly I think the toxicity of mercury has been proven and the   
>>> tobacco industry style argumentation and bogus literature only fools   the 
>>> gullible or those with such a pc mindset they cant see the emperor   is 
>>> naked.  The tobacco settlement would be a pittance compared to the dental   
>>> industry liability. 
>>>  
>>   would be? why not will be?  If there is money to be made, why isn't   
>> someone making it? Maybe because the data aren't there to support the   
>> claim?  
>>> People will kill for far less so for them to tell a lie is to be   
>>> expected. I would be gob smacked if they didnt. Kirk*/bob allen 
>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:or see
>>> http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.htmlSince the 1990s, FDA 
>>> and other government agencies (CDC, NIH) have  reviewed the scientific 
>>> literature looking for links between dental  amalgams and health 
>>> problems. To date, the agencies have found no  scientific studies that 
>>> demonstrate dental amalgams harm children or  adults. But we continue 
>>> to review the literature and ask
>>>  experts  their  opinions on the safety of dental amalgam.  
>>>   http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1996/1996_63_e.html
>>> The statement states that current evidence does not indicate that  
>>> dental  amalgam is causing illness in the general population. It also 
>>> says  that  a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of 
>>> existing sound  amalgam fillings.etc.  D. Mindock 
>>> wrote:  >  >  >  > When your dentist tells you not to worry 
>>> about the amalgam he  wants to  > put into your  > cavity or 
>>> root canal, show him/her the list below. Peace, D. Mindock  > 
>>>   >  >  
>>> http://www.medical-library.net/specialties/framer.html?/specialties/_biological_and_mercury_free_dentistry.html
>>>   >  > Here in summary form are the essential assertions of mercury 
>>> and  root  > canal free dentistry accompanied by literature 
>>> references in cases  > where there can be any argument. I am indebted 
>>> to Dr. Robert Gammal  > and Mr. Leif Hedegard for the organization of 
>>> this information.  >  > 1. Dental Amalgam contains about 50% 
>>> Mercury. (undisputed)  > 2. Mercury has been scientifically 
>>> demonstrated to be more toxic  > than Lead, Cadmium, or even Arsenic. 
>>> (undisputed)  > 3. Mercury leaves dental amalgam continuously 
>>> throughout the  > lifetime of the filing.(7)  > 4. Mercury vapor is 
>>> the main way that mercury comes out o

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

tions of natural 
phenomena.

>  And again, I don't
> have  anything  to  say  for  or  against  homeopathy nor do I use its
> methods or dismiss them.
>
> So  what  can  be said about all this? Those claiming homeopathy to be
> efficacious  are able to say, "We believe homeopathy to be efficacious
> because  we  have  tried  it  and  it  has  worked for us. This is our
> testimony."  Those  claiming homeopathy is not efficacious are able to
> say,  "We believe homeopathy to be bunk but since the experiments have
> not   been   done 

oh but they have

>  we  have  no  evidence  of  that.  It  just  sounds
> unscientific, improbable and impossible to us."
>
> My  personal  opinion?  Homeopathy may be a topic worth discussing but
> I'm  not  anywhere  near  sure  it is worth debating given the lack of
> hard evidence one way or the other, but that is just me.
>
> Happy Happy,
>
> Gustl
>   

toodles

-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth

[bob allen]

Cool, but not surprising.  I few years ago I was looking at the mercury 
content of  bream in the Ozarks.  (found it to be well under a ppm 
generally via cold vapor fluorescence)  I did the analysis in a state 
lab in Little Rock. technique was so sensitive that the mercury analysis 
was shut down for a week because a guy broke a thermometer in a lab in 
the same building as the lab I worked in but hundreds of feet away, 
which swamped the detector.  

Joe Street wrote:
> Hey Bob;
>
> I know this guy here at the U and he makes these micro mass specs.  
> Turns out the increase in sensitivity is non linear with the decrease 
> in physical size of the analyzer.  So as it turns out if a sample of 
> exhaled breath is analyzed he can make a pretty good guess how many 
> fillings you have in your head based on mercury loading.
> Here is his site:
>
> http://orchard.uwaterloo.ca/
>
> Joe
>
> bob allen wrote:
>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>   
>>> When one considers what would happen to dentistry should they admit 
>>> mercury is actually toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth
>>> 
>>
>> the data don't support your claim, plain and simple.
>>
>>   
>>> we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either the EPA 
>>> is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways.
>>> 
>>
>> yes you can if you know a little chemistry.  The the absorption, 
>> distibution, metabolism and excretion  (toxicology) of the different 
>> forms of mercury vary considerably
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Frankly I think the toxicity of mercury has been proven and the 
>>> tobacco industry style argumentation and bogus literature only fools 
>>> the gullible or those with such a pc mindset they cant see the emperor 
>>> is naked.
>>> The tobacco settlement would be a pittance compared to the dental 
>>> industry liability.
>>> 
>>
>> would be? why not will be?  If there is money to be made, why isn't 
>> someone making it? Maybe because the data aren't there to support the 
>> claim?
>>
>>   
>>> People will kill for far less so for them to tell a lie is to be 
>>> expected. I would be gob smacked if they didnt.
>>>  
>>> Kirk
>>>
>>> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>
>>> or see
>>>
>>> http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.html
>>>
>>> Since the 1990s, FDA and other government agencies (CDC, NIH) have
>>> reviewed the scientific literature looking for links between dental
>>> amalgams and health problems. To date, the agencies have found no
>>> scientific studies that demonstrate dental amalgams harm children or
>>> adults. But we continue to review the literature and ask experts
>>> their
>>> opinions on the safety of dental amalgam.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1996/1996_63_e.html
>>>
>>> The statement states that current evidence does not indicate that
>>> dental
>>> amalgam is causing illness in the general population. It also says
>>> that
>>> a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of existing sound
>>> amalgam fillings.
>>>
>>> etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > When your dentist tells you not to worry about the amalgam he
>>> wants to
>>> > put into your
>>> > cavity or root canal, show him/her the list below. Peace, D. Mindock
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> >
>>> 
>>> http://www.medical-library.net/specialties/framer.html?/specialties/_biological_and_mercury_free_dentistry.html
>>> >
>>> > Here in summary form are the essential assertions of mercury and
>>> root
>>> > canal free dentistry accompanied by literature references in cases
>>> > where there can be any argument. I am indebted to Dr. Robert Gammal
>>> > and Mr. Leif Hedegard for the organization of this information.
>>> >
>>> > 1. Dental Amalgam contains about 50% Mercury. (undisputed)
>>> > 2. Mercury has been scientifically demonstrated to be more toxic
>>> > than Lead, Cadmium, or even Arsenic. (undisputed)
>>>  

Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> When one considers what would happen to dentistry should they admit 
> mercury is actually toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth

the data don't support your claim, plain and simple.

> we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either the EPA 
> is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways.

yes you can if you know a little chemistry.  The the absorption, 
distibution, metabolism and excretion  (toxicology) of the different 
forms of mercury vary considerably


> Frankly I think the toxicity of mercury has been proven and the 
> tobacco industry style argumentation and bogus literature only fools 
> the gullible or those with such a pc mindset they cant see the emperor 
> is naked.
> The tobacco settlement would be a pittance compared to the dental 
> industry liability.

would be? why not will be?  If there is money to be made, why isn't 
someone making it? Maybe because the data aren't there to support the 
claim?

> People will kill for far less so for them to tell a lie is to be 
> expected. I would be gob smacked if they didnt.
>  
> Kirk
>
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> or see
>
> http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.html
>
> Since the 1990s, FDA and other government agencies (CDC, NIH) have
> reviewed the scientific literature looking for links between dental
> amalgams and health problems. To date, the agencies have found no
> scientific studies that demonstrate dental amalgams harm children or
> adults. But we continue to review the literature and ask experts
> their
> opinions on the safety of dental amalgam.
>
>
>
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1996/1996_63_e.html
>
> The statement states that current evidence does not indicate that
> dental
> amalgam is causing illness in the general population. It also says
> that
> a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of existing sound
> amalgam fillings.
>
> etc.
>
>
>
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > When your dentist tells you not to worry about the amalgam he
> wants to
> > put into your
> > cavity or root canal, show him/her the list below. Peace, D. Mindock
> > 
> >
> >
> 
> http://www.medical-library.net/specialties/framer.html?/specialties/_biological_and_mercury_free_dentistry.html
> >
> > Here in summary form are the essential assertions of mercury and
> root
> > canal free dentistry accompanied by literature references in cases
> > where there can be any argument. I am indebted to Dr. Robert Gammal
> > and Mr. Leif Hedegard for the organization of this information.
> >
> > 1. Dental Amalgam contains about 50% Mercury. (undisputed)
> > 2. Mercury has been scientifically demonstrated to be more toxic
> > than Lead, Cadmium, or even Arsenic. (undisputed)
> > 3. Mercury leaves dental amalgam continuously throughout the
> > lifetime of the filing.(7)
> > 4. Mercury vapor is the main way that mercury comes out of
> > amalgam.(31)
> > 5. Mercury vapor is absorbed at a rate of 80% through the lungs
> > into the arterial blood. (31, 55)
> > 6. Mercury is cytotoxic, i.e., it kills cells (undisputed)
> > 7. There is NO harmless level of Mercury Vapor Exposure. (63)
> > 8. Mercury from amalgam binds to -SH (sulfhydryl) groups. These
> > exist in almost every enzymatic process in the body. Mercury
> > from amalgam will thus have the potential of disturbing all
> > metabolic processes. ( 25, 33,60).
> > 9. Mercury from amalgam is transported freely via the
> > blood.(19,34,35,)
> > 10. Mercury vapor is absorbed directly into the brain. (34, 55a)
> > 11. Mercury from amalgam will result in a slow build up of mercury
> > in body tissues. (20,26, 34)
> > 12. Mercury crosses the blood brain barrier. (34,55a)
> > 13. Mercury is implicated in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's
> > Disease. (67,68)
> > 14. Mercury from amalgam is stored in the fetus and infant before
> > the mother. (20,61)
> > 15. Mercury from amalgam is stored in the breast milk and the fetus
> > up to 8 times more than the mother's tissues. (18,19)
> > 16. Mercury (Mercury Vapor / Methyl mercury) crosses the
> > placenta.(18, 31)
> > 17. Mercury Crosses into breast milk.(18,31,61)
> > 18. Mercury will severely reduce reproductive function.(2, 3, 

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch 
> routine.
> Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of 
> me to
> ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or "science". 

I think this comment  clearly dilineates the differences in our 
positions.  I seek rational explanations and  reproducable evidence and 
you accept testimony.

>  You have 
> your
> thoughts on things and that is the final word for you.  Science is only a
> method, a tool,

agreeed

>  to get something believed to have a chance of being true to 
> be
> verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the 
> hypothesis in
> the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite some time.
>   

no it hasn't.  maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not 
homeopathy.

> That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. 

so explain it to me.  How does something which is not there, do something? 

> Science
> is merely a method.

agreed

>  Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that.
>   


who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense.  But if 
you really want  to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who 
apparently had a very confused  sense of cause and effect, and that 
silliness has persisted  to this day.  So D if you really believe  this 
works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable?  Where is the data.? 

> Peace and light, D. Mindock
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 
> Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
>
>
>   
>> Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of homeopathy.  This
>> is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the
>> planet.  there is zero valid support for the idea that something which
>> causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by
>> something at extremely low doses.  And I mean extreme.  Substances are
>> diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more.  At this concentration there
>> is nothing left at all.   A little critical thinking goes a long way here.
>>
>> There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible evidence
>> for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes-  it is nonsense.
>>
>> Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
>> 
>>> Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth ..
>>>
>>> We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a dentist for 
>>> bone
>>> re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a separation of self 
>>> as
>>> seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the dermatologist for 
>>> skin
>>> problems, etc
>>>
>>> Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the whole .. 
>>> nothing
>>> is going to exist in isolation inside the human physical body.
>>>
>>> Do you know a good herbalist?  I'm thinking something missing .. but if 
>>> you
>>> have some level of toxic substance as a core problem (don't we all), then
>>> homeopathy could be the road.
>>>
>>> Mary Lynn
>>> Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
>>> ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
>>> TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification 
>>> .
>>> Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy 
>>> Practitioner
>>> . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity .
>>> The Animal Connection Healing Modalities
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/
>>> http://allcreatureconnections.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: 
>>>> Subject: Re:
>>>> [Biofuel]Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials
>>>> asEvidence)
>>>> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:48:58 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>Yep, Linus Pauling was a true truth seeker, a beautiful human being.
>>>>I've been doing a bit of research on periodontal disease. It seems 
>>>> that
>>>> there is alot going on that my dentist doesn't know about. He just wants 
>>>> to
>>>> pull teeth and put in partial plates. But there are dentists who can 
>>>> stop
>&g

Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth

[bob allen]

>   Bacteria. Rowland, Grasso, Davies Experientia.Basel 1975 ,31:
>   1064-1065
>   53. Yamada, Tonomura Formation of methyl Mercury Compounds from
>   inorganic Mercury . by Chlostridium cochlearium J Ferment
>   Technol1972 50:159-166
>   54. Hanson J Orthomolecular Psychiatry 1983, 12: 194-201
>   55. Amalgam Restorations and Mercury Toxicity. Dr P Sheridan,
>   Masters Thesis, University of Sydney 1991
>   56. Marxkors, R.: Korrosionserscheinungen an Amalgamf llungen und
>   Deren Auswirkungen auf den Menschlichen Organismus. Das Deutsche
>   Zahn rztebl. 24, 53, 117 and 170, 1970.
>   57. Campbell & M. Godfrey Research into provocation testing of DMPS
>   - urine samples of Mercury.
>   58. Summers AO, Wireman J., Vimy MJ., LOrscheider fly., Marshal B.,
>   Evy SB., Bennet S., Billard L. J. Of Anti-microbial Agents and
>   Chemotherapy 37[4]:825-34 April 1993
>   59. Boyd ND, Benediktsson H, Vimy HJ, Hooper DE, and Lorscheider FL.
>   Mercury from dental "Silver" tooth fillings impairs sheep kidney
>   function. Am. J. Physiol. 261 (Regulatory Integrative Comp.
>   Physiol. 30): R1010-R1014, 1991
>   60. Stejskal V Sweden "Memory lymphocyte immuno- stimulation assay -
>   MLISA"
>   61. Dr Gustav Drasch, Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of
>   Munich. Public announcement 25 January 1994 Bio Probe March 1994
>   62. Dr W. Kostler., President of the Austrian Oncology Society.
>   Paper presented at the World Congress on Cancer. April 1994
>   Sydney Australia.
>   63. World Health Organization Criteria 118 1991 Geneva Switzerland
>   64. Health damage due to exposure to mercury vapor (Mercury) Szkody
>   zdrowotne wywolane narazeniem napary rteci (Mercury).
>   Moszczynski-P Jr; Moszczynski-P Czas-Stomatol. 1989 Apr; 42(4):
>   233-81989 (POLAND)
>   65. Fung YK, Molvar MP, Strom A, Schneider NR, Carlson MP In vivo
>   mercury and methyl mercury levels in patients at different
>   intervals after amalgam restorations. College of Dentistry,
>   University of Nebraska Medical Center, Lincoln. Northwest-Dent.
>   1991 May-Jun; 70(3): 23-6
>   66. Thompson CM, Markesbery WR, Ehmann WD, Mao YX Regional brain
>   trace-element studies in Alzheimer's disease. In:
>   Neurotoxicology (1988 Spring) 9(1):1-7
>   67. Vance DE, Ehmann WD, Markesbery WR A search for longitudinal
>   variations in trace element levels in nails of Alzheimer's
>   disease patients. Biol Trace Elem Res (1990 Jul-Dec) 26-27:461-70
>   68. Systemic diseases caused by oral microorganisms. Debelian et.
>   al., (1994). Endod. Dent. Traumatol10:57-65.
>   69. Systemic dissemination as a result of oral infection in
>   individuals 50 years of age and older. Navazesh and Mulligan
>   (1995). Spec. Care Dentist. 15:11-19.
>   70. Focal pathology and infectious dental foci. Theoretical and
>   clinical aspects. Preda and Pasetti (1990). Dent. Cadmos 58:34-43.
>   71. Association between acute cerebrovascular ischemia and chronic
>   and recurrent infection. Grau (1996). J. Periodontol.
>   67:1103-1113.et al.,(1997). Stroke 28:1724-1729.
>   72. Dental infections and coronary atherosclerosis. Mattila et al.,
>   (1993). Atherosclerosis 103:205-211.
>   73. Association between acute cerebrovascular ischemia and chronic
>   and recurrent infection. Grau et. al., (1997). Stroke 28724-1729.
>   74. Association between dental health and acute myocardial
>   infarction. Mattila et. al., (1989). Br. Med. J. 298:779-784.
>   75. Dental infections as a risk factor for acute myocardial
>   infarction. Mattila (1993). Europ. Heart J. 14:51-53.
>
> 
>
> ___
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>
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>
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>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> People have been taking homeopathic flu shots and seem to get results, 
> however, people taking regular flu shots are still getting the flu and 
> they are exposed to dangerous chemicals such as mercury and alluminum 
> which are in regular flu vaccines.

crapola, show me the data! homeophathy is a hoax, it is not chemically 
or biologically plausible. Please look at what it is and think 
critically. Homeopathic nostrums have been so diluted that nothing at 
all of the original ingredient exists. THINK ABOUT IT. The 
oscillococcinum preperation mentioned for the flu treatment is made from 
the liver of a duck. As I recall 35 grams of duck liver fat is churned 
into 100 milliters of water. This is dumped out. Then another 100 ml is 
added to the same container. Repeat this process 200 times. What you 
have is some thing that has been diluted 100 to the 200th power. The is 
no way in hell that there is a single m molecule exists from the 
original duck. Time magazine did a story on this a while back. They 
called it 120 million dollar duck, because that is the money made on the 
sale of the derived product (Boiron) talk about follow the money!

I would encourage any thinking person to examine any of the following

http://www.homeowatch.org/history/oscillo.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillococcinum

or go listen to the podcasts at:

http://www.quackcast.com/QuackCast/Podcasts/Archive.html


after doing so come back and defend this nonsense

>
> Terry Dyck
>
>
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 
>> Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
>> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:53:36 -0500
>>
>> Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of homeopathy. This
>> is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the
>> planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something which
>> causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by
>> something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme. Substances are
>> diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this concentration there
>> is nothing left at all. A little critical thinking goes a long way here.
>>
>> There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible evidence
>> for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes- it is nonsense.
>>
>> Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
>> > Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth ..
>> >
>> > We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a dentist 
>> for bone
>> > re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a separation of 
>> self as
>> > seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the dermatologist 
>> for skin
>> > problems, etc
>> >
>> > Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the whole .. 
>> nothing
>> > is going to exist in isolation inside the human physical body.
>> >
>> > Do you know a good herbalist? I'm thinking something missing .. but 
>> if you
>> > have some level of toxic substance as a core problem (don't we 
>> all), then
>> > homeopathy could be the road.
>> >
>> > Mary Lynn
>> > Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
>> > ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
>> > TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior 
>> Modification .
>> > Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy 
>> Practitioner
>> > . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity .
>> > The Animal Connection Healing Modalities
>> > http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/
>> > http://allcreatureconnections.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >> To: 
>> >> Subject: Re:
>> >> [Biofuel]Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials
>> >> asEvidence)
>> >> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:48:58 -0500
>> >>
>> >> Hi Mike,
>> >> Yep, Linus Pauling was a true truth seeker, a beautiful human being.
>> >> I've been doing a bit of research on periodontal disease. It seems 
>> that
>> >> there is alot going on that my dentist doesn't know about. He just 
>> wants to
>> >> pull teeth and put in partial plates. But there are dentists who 
>> can stop
>> >> the
>> >> disease and get bo

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)

[bob allen]

t;> this one!!  LOL Mike DuPree
>>
>>   - Original Message -
>>   From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>   To: 
>>   Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:56 AM
>>   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as 
>> AnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>   > Hi Mike,
>>   >   I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
>>   > milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
>>   > to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
>>   > Harvard study would actually be better off.
>>   >  Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and 
>> organic.
>>   > Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the 
>> Hunzas
>>   > drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
>>   > Peace, D. Mindock
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > - Original Message -
>>   > From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>   > To: 
>>   > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
>>   > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as 
>> Anesthesia
>>   > WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>>   >>
>>   >> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>   >>
>>   >> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people 
>> suffer from are
>>   >> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third 
>> world,
>>   >> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of 
>> food and
>>   >> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer 
>> 
> >from the
>   
>>   >> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to 
>> mind,
>>   >> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, 
>> high blood
>>   >> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>   >>
>>   >> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>   >>
>>   >> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake 
>> doesn't
>>   >> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. 
>> For example,
>>   >> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and 
>> female
>>   >> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per 
>> week were
>>   >> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were 
>> those who
>>   >> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>>   >> 
>> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>>   >> Other studies have found similar results.
>>   >>
>>   >> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a 
>> disease" if
>>   >> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need 
>> cat milk.
>>   >>
>>   >> bob allen wrote:
>>   >>
>>   >>>Howdy Terry,
>>   >>>
>>   >>>Terry Dyck wrote:
>>   >>>
>>   >>>
>>   >>>>HI Bob,
>>   >>>>
>>   >>>>The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart 
>> disease,
>>   >>>>Diabetes,
>>   >>>>Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>   >>>>
>>   >>>>
>>   >>>
>>   >>>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the 
>> data age
>>   >>>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  
>> This is the
>>   >>>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are 
>> overly broad
>>   >>>statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give 
>> me
>>   >>>reference or two so I ca

[Biofuel] get the lead out

[bob allen]

 a 
cow.

California's fish and game commission last year rejected an emergency 
ban on lead bullets, and bills in the Legislature to outlaw them in 
hunting died twice. Groups such as Ventana Wildlife Society urge an 
approach like Arizona's. The state offered free non-lead bullets to 
hunters last year in areas frequented by condors. Nearly two-thirds 
accepted them, and condor lead-exposure rates fell 40% from 2004, 
according to Arizona's game and fish department.

Ventana wants California lawmakers to approve $200,000 a year for five 
years to pay for coupons that hunters could redeem for free or 
reduced-price non-lead bullets. "That's a million bucks. Big deal," says 
Ventana's president, Kelly Sorenson. "Compared to the total cost we're 
spending on the condor recovery program, it's a small price to pay."

That program, involving state and federal agencies, zoos, foundations 
and universities, has cost at least $40 million, the U.S. Fish and 
Wildlife Service says.




-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Author unknown


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Re: [Biofuel] Opps- Bad News

[bob allen]

Your Mind
>> http://www.newadventure.ca
>>
>> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
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>>
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>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as AnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

Howdy Mike,

M&K DuPree wrote:
> Hi D and Mike...isn't homogenized milk

actually the lipid portion of milk,

whipped up into incredibly small
> particles 

yes
that actually scar the lining of the esophagus and arteries,

no
> thereby, allowing cholesterol to more easily coagulate along the 
> linings? 

no

Whether or not it does, I say "soy milk."  I know I
> know...tastes terrible, to some.  But I only use it on cereals and a 
> couple of desserts.  Plenty of other stuff to be drinking, likeuh, 
> waterdistilled of course...I know I know minerals etc 
> etc...hey...distilledperiod...and don't bother me about taste...if 
> you can taste it, it ain't water you're tasting!  Yeah, I'm closed 
> minded on this one!!  LOL Mike DuPree
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as 
> AnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence)
> 
>  > Hi Mike,
>  >   I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
>  > milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
>  > to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
>  > Harvard study would actually be better off.
>  >  Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
>  > Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
>  > drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
>  > Peace, D. Mindock
>  >
>  >
>  > - Original Message -
>  > From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>  > To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
>  > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
>  > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>  > WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>  >
>  >
>  >> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>  >>
>  >> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>  >>
>  >> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>  >> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>  >> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>  >> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>  >> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>  >> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>  >> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>  >>
>  >> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>  >>
>  >> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>  >> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>  >> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>  >> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>  >> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>  >> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>  >> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>  >> Other studies have found similar results.
>  >>
>  >> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>  >> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>  >>
>  >> bob allen wrote:
>  >>
>  >>>Howdy Terry,
>  >>>
>  >>>Terry Dyck wrote:
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>>HI Bob,
>  >>>>
>  >>>>The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease,
>  >>>>Diabetes,
>  >>>>Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>  >>>>
>  >>>>
>  >>>
>  >>>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>  >>>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>  >>>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>  >>>statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>  >>>reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>  >>>
>  >>>or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>  >>>adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>  >>>essentially inevitable, the longer yo

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

In Montreal this summer I tried steak tartar, as it was on the menu in 
several resturants.  It was served as  a little volcano of ground beef, 
with a raw egg in the  cone. 

Mike Weaver wrote:
> Actually, I hate milk and am very allergic to it.  I like cheese but 
> rarely eat it.  In Europe I prefer raw sheep's milk.
> I read anecdotally that that both raw (grass-fed) milk and beef are much 
> better than cooked.  I don't eat much meat at all.
> I sometimes buy sushi grade tuna and eat it raw to get my mercury 
> allowance ;-)
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi Mike,
>>   I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
>> milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
>> to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
>> Harvard study would actually be better off.
>>  Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
>> Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
>> drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>> >From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>> 
>>> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>>
>>> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>>> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>>> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>>> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>>> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>>> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>>> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>>
>>> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>>
>>> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>>> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>>> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>>> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>>> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>>> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>>> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>>> Other studies have found similar results.
>>>
>>> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>>> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>>
>>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> HI Bob,
>>>>>
>>>>> The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>>> Diabetes,
>>>>> Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>>> adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>>> issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>>> statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>>> reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>>>
>>>> or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>>> adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>>> essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>>> get cancer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  show me the data please.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> On the other hand
>>>>> there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>>>>> Hunzaland
>>>>> that is an almost disease free area.
>>>>>
>>&

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
> milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
> to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
> Harvard study would actually be better off.
>   Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
>   
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/10/13/food/0_03_1110_12_06.txt

Raw organic milk that sickened California children now OK

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003280686_spinach29m.html

Two children have been sickened in another episode of E. coli infection, 
this time from drinking raw milk from a Whatcom County dairy.

A 5-year-old boy from Issaquah was still hospitalized with the illness 
Thursday, while an 8-year-old girl from Snohomish County was recovering 
at home, said state health officials and a spokeswoman for a store that 
sold the milk.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&article=UPI-1-20061013-01412200-bc-britain-tb.xml
 



  Small TB outbreak traced to raw milk






> Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
> drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
> Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>
>
>   
>> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>>
>> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>
>> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>
>> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>
>> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>> Other studies have found similar results.
>>
>> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>>
>> bob allen wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> HI Bob,
>>>>
>>>> The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>> Diabetes,
>>>> Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>> adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>> issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>> statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>> reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>>
>>> or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>> adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>> essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>> get cancer.
>>>
>>>
>>>   show me the data please.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>>  On the other hand
>>>> there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>>>> Hunzaland
>>>> that is an almost disease free area.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
>>> thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
>>>
>>>   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>>>http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>>>
>>> o

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
> milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
> to the body.
  Can you explain how this happens?



>  So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
> Harvard study would actually be better off.
>   Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
> Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
> drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
> Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>
>
>   
>> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>>
>> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>
>> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>
>> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>
>> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>> Other studies have found similar results.
>>
>> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>>
>> bob allen wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> HI Bob,
>>>>
>>>> The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>> Diabetes,
>>>> Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>> adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>> issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>> statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>> reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>>
>>> or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>> adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>> essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>> get cancer.
>>>
>>>
>>>   show me the data please.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>>  On the other hand
>>>> there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>>>> Hunzaland
>>>> that is an almost disease free area.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
>>> thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
>>>
>>>   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>>>http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>>>
>>> or how about 160+ year olds
>>> http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm
>>>
>>> do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less
>>> than forthright to make a point about a product the promote?
>>>
>>> or maybe it's the magnetized water
>>> http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> A pure organic food diet and almost no
>>>> pollution could be the reason for people having good health.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> or it could all be 

Re: [Biofuel] THE TRUTH BEHIND THE VACCINE COVER-UP

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Here is a treasure trove of the fallacies of vaccination. If some weak 
> people insist on getting
> vaccinated, fine. But it goes over the line when they force others to get 
> vaccinated as well. And that
> is what is happening. Big Pharma wants total control of your body. And they 
> are inducing weak
> politicians to make the laws necessary.
> http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccines.htm
>   

here is a gem from your antivax site:


*HOMEOPATHY IS RENOWNED FOR ITS ABILITY TO REDUCE OR REPAIR THE DAMAGE 
CAUSED BY VACCINES LIKE NOTHING ELSE CAN !* Homeopathy 
is noted for its 
success to antidote or remove the toxic effects of vaccines and to 
re-establish balance in the organism and restore health. Certain 
homeopathic remedies taken after/ /vaccination can minimize vaccine 
damage. A professional homeopath 
 
should be consulted for more. 


what a joke.   Homeopathy is the easiest of "alt ernative medicines to 
discredit. Anyone who can count, should understand.



> &
> >From AAPS:
>   

what is the AAPS ?  google gives numerous organisations that  use those 
initials

> The Physician's Desk Reference cites adverse reactions to the hepatitis B in 
> less than 1 percent. However, if more than 70 million American children 
>   
> receive the vaccine, that means more than 700,000 children are likely to 
> suffer adverse reactions.
>   
Hepatitis B virus (HBV) is a common cause of liver disease throughout 
the world. An estimated one third of the world's population has 
serologic evidence of past infection, and the virus causes more than 1 
million deaths annually.1 In the United States, the incidence of HBV 
infection declined from about 14 cases per 100,000 population in the 
mid-1980s to about three cases per 100,000 population in 1998.2 However, 
there are still 1.25 million adults and children in the United States 
with chronic HBV infection. 


> Children are a very low risk group for hepatitis B.
unless exposed during birth:

>  Primary risk factors are 
> dependent on lifestyle, i.e. multiple sex partners, drug abuse or an 
> occupation with exposure to blood.
>   


http://www.doh.state.fl.us/disease_ctrl/immune/hep_b/index.htm

HBV infection is a serious health problem in the United States. 
Transmission of HBV from mother to infant during the perinatal period 
confers the greatest risk of chronic infection or death from HBV-related 
chronic liver disease. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 
(CDC) estimates that between 454 and 751 HBsAg-positive Florida women 
give birth each year; without prophylaxis, 45-100 infants would become 
infected with HBV. Ninety to 95 percent of these potential infections 
may be avoided through appropriate maternal screening and infant 
immunoprophylaxis.


> Rampant conflicts of interest in the approval process has been the subject 
> of several Congressional hearings, and a recent Congressional report 
> concluded that the pharmaceutical industry has indeed exerted undue 
> influence on mandatory vaccine legislation toward its own financial 
> interests.
>
> The vaccine approval process has also been contaminated by flawed or 
> incomplete clinical trials, and government officials have chosen to ignore 
> negative results. For example, the CDC was forced to withdraw its 
> recommendation of the rotavirus vaccine within one year of approval. Yet 
> public documents obtained by AAPS show that the CDC was aware of alarmingly 
> high intussuception rates months before the vaccine was approved and 
> recommended.
>
> Mandatory vaccines violate the medical ethic of informed consent. A case 
> could also be made that mandates for vaccines by school districts and 
> legislatures is the de facto practice of medicine without a license.
>
> The CDC's own "Guide to Contraindications to Childhood Vaccination" warns 
> that when assessing children's common symptoms, "if any one of them is a 
> contraindication, DO NOT VACCINATE" [caps added]. And yet, under legislated 
> mandates, the vaccines are still required.
>
> End AAPS excerpt.
>
> IMO, mandatory vaccinations are not Constitutional. We have nothing if we 
> have no control over our own
> bodies against outside forces. If my home is my castle, then what is my 
> body?
>   
part of a public health program?


> Peace, D. Mindock  P.S. Marilynn, thanks for this topic as it hits home to 
> what this country is becoming.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Marylynn Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 6:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] THE TRUTH BEHIND THE VACCINE COVER-UP
>
>
>   
>> All those bumper stickers loudly proclaiming that Abortion Is Not A 
>> Medical
>> Procedure has always made me wonder if the average individual actually 
>> knows
>> that Childbirth is Not a Medical Procedure Either.
>>
>> Historically the midwife (mid-

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

Howdy Terry,

Terry Dyck wrote:
> HI Bob,
>
> The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, 
> Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.

oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age 
adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the 
issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad 
statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me  
reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. 

or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age 
adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is 
essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to 
get cancer. 


   show me the data please.




>   On the other hand 
> there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland 
> that is an almost disease free area.
I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only 
thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure" 

   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm

or how about 160+ year olds
http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm

do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less 
than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? 

or maybe it's the magnetized water
http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm

>  A pure organic food diet and almost no 
> pollution could be the reason for people having good health.
>   
or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better 
documentation? 


>> --
>> Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
>> =
>> The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in 
>> moral philosophy; that is,
>> the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
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>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>> 
>
> _
>
>   



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Re: [Biofuel] Isuzu Pickup

[bob allen]

Of course that's assuming it is a diesel engine.  ;->

Keith Addison wrote:
>> Can any one on the list tell me what I need to do to convert my newest
>> vehicle to B-100. Its an 88 Isuzu pickup and has less than 100k miles.
> 
> Put the fuel in the tank.
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jim
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
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> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Bob Allen
http://www.ozarker.org/bob
-
Science is what we have learned about how to
keep from fooling ourselves.   Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] NZ Coroners Report on Complementary Medicines

[bob allen]

s put at $US76.6 billion which was three times the cost
>>> of all diabetes care in the United States," says Dr Bain.
>>>
>>> "What is ironic here is that what is being held out as a justification for
>>> high regulation and compliance in the area of complementary medicines and
>>> natural products in New Zealand is public safety and risk. Despite a
>>> diligent search of Coronial records and the literature, no instances have
>>> been found to demonstrate that in fact these products have any serious
>>> public health issue or risk.
>>>
>>> "The problem is clearly with prescription and other drugs," says Dr Bain.
>>> "The Coronial and literature searches in so far as natural products are
>>> concerned and linkages to public safety and risk can be described legally
>>> as De minimis no curat lex. That is - of minimal risk importance.
>>>
>>> "The law does not and should not concern itself with such trifles."
>>>
>>> Dr Bain's report has been sent to Annette King.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Bain is available for comment directly on 021 750 704 or via me,
>>> Kimberley Paterson on 09 4244218
>>>
>>> or 0273 454570. You can also contact Dr Bain directly on 021 750 704
>>>
>>> If you need more information, please contact me
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> Kimberley Paterson
>>> 09 4244218
>>> www.lodestarmedia.co.nz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Bending
>>> Alliance for Health Freedom Australia
>>> http://www.ahf-au.org
>>> 'All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing'
>>> - Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Irish born writer and politician -
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>>
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>> messages):
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>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 10/13/2006
> 
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> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] $75,000 vaccine offer

[bob allen]

ofessionals that he names, and three medical professionals that the
>> participant names.
>>
>> The mixture will be body weight calibrated.
>>
>> Because the participant is either a professional caregiver who
>> routinely administers childhood vaccinations, or a pharmaceutical
>> company CEO whose business is, in part, the sale of childhood
>> vaccines, it is understood by all parties that the participant
>> considers all vaccine additive ingredients to be safe and that the
>> participant considers any mixture containing these ingredients to be
>> safe.
>>
>> The participant agrees, and any and all agents and associates of the
>> participant agree, to indemnify and hold harmless in perpetuity any
>> and all persons, organizations, and/or entities associated with the
>> event for any harm caused, or alleged to be caused, directly or
>> indirectly, to the participant or indirectly to the participant's
>> heirs, relations, employers, employees, colleagues, associates, or
>> other persons, organizations, or entities claiming association with,
>> or representation of, the participant, by the participant's
>> participation in the event.
>>
>> The event will be held within six months of the participant's written
>> agreement to the above and further elaborated terms.
>>
>> To the list of potential candidates for the $75,000 Vaccine Offer, 14
>> members of the CDC's 2006 Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices
>> (ACIP) have been added, as follows:
>>
>> Jon S. Abramson, M.D.
>> Ban Mishu Allos, M.D.
>> Carol Baker, M.D.
>> Janet R. Gilsdorf, M.D.
>> Harry Hull, M.D.
>> Susan Lett, M.D.
>> Tracy Lieu, M.D.
>> Dale L. Morse, M.D.
>> Julia Morita, M.D.
>> Kathleen Neuzil, M.D.
>> Patricia Stinchfield, N.P.
>> Ciro Valent Sumaya, M.D.
>> John J. Treanor, M.D.
>> Robin J. Womeodu, M.D.
>>
>> In the event that any of the above ACIP members' terms expire and they
>> are replaced by new members, the new members will be added
>> automatically to the list of potential candidates for the Vaccine
>> Offer.
>>
>> This offer, dated August 1, 2006, has no expiration date unless
>> superceded by a similar offer of higher remuneration.
>>
>> Contact Jock Doubleday: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/$75,000VaccineOffer.htm
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>>
>> In health,
>>
>> Jock Doubleday
>> Director
>> Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
>> A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation
>> http://www.SpontaneousCreation.org
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
>> Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK
>> $$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  voicemail US 530-740-0561
>> (go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail
>> Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm
>> Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - 
>> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm
>> Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -
>> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm
>> Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsub -
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> The above HAS NOT been working lately, so go to the webpage
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vaccineinfo/
>>
>> to unsubscribe by clicking on 'edit my membership'
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vaccineinfo/
>>
>> <*> Your email settings:
>> Individual Email | Traditional
>>
>> <*> To change settings online go to:
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>> (Yahoo! ID required)
>>
>> <*> To change settings via email:
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>>
>> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>>
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>>
>>
> 
> 
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> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> This is a tough call; do I believe your website, which I know nothing about 
> or do I consider the website to be similar to some rumors 

you needn't trust any web site.  Federal convictions are a matter of public 
record. as are fines and 
fda cease and desist orders. He is a con(vict) and a con man. plain and simple.
*Criminal history*

1990: Larceny & prison
Trudeau's legal problems are long-standing. In 1990, he posed as a doctor in 
order to deposit 
$80,000 in false checks, and in 1991 he pled guilty to larceny after he had 
provided false 
information to obtain credit cards which he used for his own purposes. He spent 
two years in prison 
because of this conviction.(Choi, 2005) Most people in opposition to Trudeau's 
claims point to this 
felony conviction as a good reason not to trust him.

1996: SEC
Trudeau rebounded, making a small fortune working for Nutrition For Life, a 
multi-level marketing 
program. However, in 1996, his recruitment practices ran afoul of the states of 
Illinois and 
Michigan, as well as the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Michigan went 
so far as to forbid 
him from operating in the state.

1998: FTC fine
Then, in 1998, he was forced to pay $500,000 in consumer redress to the Federal 
Trade Commission 
(FTC), relating to six infomercials he had produced and which the FTC 
determined he had made false 
or misleading claims.

2004: FTC ban, fines
More recently, on September 7, 2004, the FTC announced that they were banning 
Trudeau from 
"appearing in, producing, or disseminating any future infomercials that 
advertise any type of 
product" because he repeatedly made "fraudulent" and "unsubstantiated" claims 
in them. [1] In 
addition, Trudeau paid $500,000 in cash and transferred ownership of a luxury 
vehicle and a piece of 
residential property in California to satisfy a $2 million fine against him. 
Lydia Parnes, Acting 
Director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection stated that "This ban is 
meant to shut down an 
infomercial empire that has misled American consumers for years." The charges 
arose from work 
Trudeau did on an infomercial featuring Bob Barefoot and British actress Debbie 
Flett advertising 
coral calcium, a dietary supplement. However, Trudeau's infomercial advertising 
his book still airs 
on a daily basis because he is still allowed to promote publications. Airings 
of these infomercials 
in 2005 have included a guest appearance by Tammy Faye Bakker.







started by people
> who thought that the famous environmentalist, Dr. David Suzuki, was too 
> dangerous for the commercial world.  The rumors about Suzuki,  were not good 
> for the environment but they gave amunition to people who were non 
> environmental types.  Kevin Trudeau, I am sure, has made some enemies with 
> the Pharmaceutical Corporations and therefore could be a target.
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:32:09 -0500
>>
>> no, Terry, you need to look "outside the book"  he went to prison for
>> larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed
>> was is own larcenous enterprises.
>>
>>   http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html
>>
>>
>> " he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit
>> card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was
>> filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using "unauthorized access
>> devices" to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also
>> swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and
>> Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social
>> security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked.
>>
>>   Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make
>> restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle
>> Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two
>> years probation.
>>
>>
>> did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at
>> ripoffreport.com   ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work 
>> for
>>> Pharmacitical corporations.  That info is in his book.
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>&

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

t; drug was unlikely to become available as it wasn't worth 
> commercialising it because cabbages were too common. These days I 
> suppose we'd suddenly find that cabbages had become the exclusive 
> property of Pfizer or Bayer.
> 
> There's something rollickingly insane about what happens to people 
> who eat the "food" approved by the Food and Drugs Administration, and 
> then they get the approved "healthcare" too (eg the "Seven Deadly 
> Drugs" approved by the FDA). It's become a very Orwellian word, 
> healthcare has. Things are indeed much as D. describes them, sad to 
> say.
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> 
>> Bob,
>>   Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is
>> convicted
>> of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. I am
>> more forgiving,
>> having realized my own numerous faults.
>>There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be
>> safe
>> and effective. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can
>> see many studies
>> there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big
>> Pharma
>> takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and
>> then derives a
>> drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used
>> as medicine for
>> hundreds of years. You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by
>> this approach.
>>  You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech
>> approach
>> to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a
>> fundamental error.
>> Not only that, but they insist that only their way is "science" and we that
>> disagree are
>> goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs,
>> vitamins, and supplements
>> on the shelves in today's health food store. That is the aim of Codex
>> Alimentarius. Of
>> course, it is to be done to "protect" the citizens of America, Australia,
>> England, Germany,
>> etc. It will be done with no public input and to "harmonize" our trade with
>> all of our
>> trade partners. So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent
>> herbs, supplements,
>> vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily
>> allowance)
>> levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing.
>>   One example of alt medicine in action:
>> http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html
>> Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in
>> advanced stages
>> of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes by a
>> bully FDA.
>> Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked,
>> it seems
>> that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business and there
>> little incentive
>> to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a
>> threat but he held
>> his ground. My hat is off to him.
>>The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has
>> done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The
>> monographs are available in book form.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired.
>>> no,  the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he
>>> only  sells books about health care products.
>>>
>>>
>>> I got his
>>>> last two books.
>>>> They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says.
>>>
>>> keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud.  He stole peoples money.
>>>  what makes you think he's telling the truth now?  did you read any of
>>> the comments at ripoffreport.com ?  he is a scam artist
>>>
>>>I
>>>> have seen too many people, friends
>>>> and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with
>>>> drugs, and as
>>>> long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them
>>>> exclusively.
>>>
>>> a commendable notion, but where do

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Bob,
>Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is 
> convicted
> of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything.

the problem is that he appears to still be offering up less than the truth.

see for example

  http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/story?id=1527774


  I am
> more forgiving,
> having realized my own numerous faults.
> There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be 
> safe
> and effective.

and many which have shown to do nothing.



  If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can
> see many studies
> there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big 
> Pharma

my beloved big pharma?  those are your words not mine, so be careful about what 
you attribute to who.

> takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and 
> then derives a
> drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used 
> as medicine for
> hundreds of years.

were going in circles here, I said just the same previously-  "pharmacognosy"



  You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by
> this approach.

I agree


>   You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech 
> approach

if by western medicine you mean "efficacy proven via reproducible double blind 
trials, and supported 
by statistically significant epidemiology" then yes I am held it its sway.

> to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot 

this seems to be somewhat meaningless.  so how does alt medicine differ in its 
treatment of the 
body?


and, imo, that's a
> fundamental error.
> Not only that, but they insist that only their way is "science" and we that 
> disagree are
> goofy.

your words not mine.  My gripe is with people who couch there arguments about 
efficacy in science 
like terminology without any real scientific support. For example at the life 
extension site, which 
is there to make money after all, are a lot of questionable and/ or way 
overpriced nostrums for sale.

  Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs,
> vitamins, and supplements
> on the shelves in today's health food store. 

I keep asking for examples of this.  Give me one good example for us to discuss.




That is the aim of Codex
> Alimentarius. Of
> course, it is to be done to "protect" the citizens of America, Australia, 
> England, Germany,
> etc. It will be done with no public input and to "harmonize" our trade with 
> all of our
> trade partners.

   so you think the World Health Organization and the UN are out the keep you 
from getting herbs?



  So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent
> herbs, supplements,
> vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily 
> allowance)
> levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing.
>One example of alt medicine in action:
> http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html
> Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in 
> advanced stages
> of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes 

actually I find little evidence of success, at least as published in peer 
reviewed journals.  Here 
is another example of a treatment that is wrapped in science so to speak, but 
has generated scant 
evidence, other than a few case histories. And these frequently involved other 
treatments so it is 
not clear just what is going on.



by a
> bully FDA.
> Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked, 
> it seems
> that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business


And I bet Burzynski is doing quite well at treating it. whether he is curing it 
is another matter 
altogether.

  and there
> little incentive
> to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a 
> threat but he held
> his ground.

and his income

My hat is off to him.
> The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has 
> done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The 
> monographs are available in book form.
> Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> 
> 
>>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired.
>> no,  the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he
>> only  sells books about health care products.
>>
>>
>> I got his
>>> last two books.
>&g

Re: [Biofuel] farming irrigation systems--diesel to NH3

[bob allen]

and where do you get the ammonia, why you expend massive amounts of fossil 
fuels (methane) to reduce 
the nitrogen in the atmosphere.  An d because of the laws of thermodynamics, 
one will use more 
energy , hence  more greenhouse emissions than if you justs burn the diesel.



D. Mindock wrote:
> Justice Litle [writes]:
> 
> "Most farming irrigation systems run on diesel engines. The fruit and
> vegetables your family enjoys were probably not just transported by diesel
> power; they were likely watered with diesel power also," he reports.
> 
> "This could soon change. An Iowa company called Hydrogen Engine Center,
> specializing in alternative fuel engines, has gone into partnership with
> Sawtelle & Rosprim, a California irrigation pump manufacturer. Together,
> they plan to introduce the first-ever ammonia-powered irrigation system.
> Anhydrous ammonia, or NH3, is rich in hydrogen and carbon free; because
> farmers have long used it for fertilizer, regulations, pipelines and
> distribution centers for ammonia are already in place.
> 
> "The technology would be especially attractive to California farmers, who
> are under pressure to comply with increasingly strict emissions rules. A
> successful test over the 2007 growing season could lead to commercial
> sales in 2008."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 10/13/2006


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. 

no,  the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he 
only  sells books about health care products.


I got his
> last two books.
> They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says.


keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud.  He stole peoples money. 
  what makes you think he's telling the truth now?  did you read any of 
the comments at ripoffreport.com ?  he is a scam artist

I
> have seen too many people, friends
> and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with 
> drugs, and as
> long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them 
> exclusively.


a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on 
efficacy?  from a con artist?


> It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more successful 
> they are, the more they're stymied
> in their work by the FDA.

how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call 
it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims. 
For example mercola

--
Mercola gets second warning letter.

The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center 
to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on 
product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on 
claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable 
claims include:

**Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to "help to virtually 
eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future."

**Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of 
heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases.

**Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating 
certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease.

**Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed 
to be "a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other 
pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease."

---

This is one of the primary functions of the
> AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on the FDA.  It is called 
> "protecting thy turf". Alt medicine
> is growing by leaps and bounds and is the wave of the future, if, a big if, 
> it can survive the onslaught from
>  the FDA, AMA, and Codex Alimentarius.

and another big if is can it be proven to really do anything.

> Big Pharma is the creator/backer of the Codex and I have no doubt that many 
> Repugs and a few
> key Dems are being primed to pass legislation to make it a done deal in the 
> U$ of A.
> Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> 
> 
>> Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
>> to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
>> you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
>> Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>>
>>  Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever
>> seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
>> acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>> here is the ftc statement
>>
>> http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>>
>>
>> and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
>> federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
>> treated by the man.
>>
>>
>> http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>>
>> you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by 
>>> Kevin
>>> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.
>>> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of 
>>> corrupt
>>> work to please the share holders of his company.
>> then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
>> mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
>> whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>>
>>
>>   He was expected to do this
>>> corrupt work in order 

Re: [Biofuel] new alcohol ideas

[bob allen]

methanol and castor oil are miscible because castor oil is slightly more 
polar than other oils/fats.  Therefore I would think that glycerin would 
also be soluble in castor oil.

Logan vilas wrote:
> Would glycerin dissolve in the castor oil or not? If not then castor oil
> added to glycerin cocktail should cause the methanol to dissolve in it and
> then the methanol can be recovered water free from the castor oil instead of
> separating it from the glycerin. It would take much less energy to recover
> it in that method. Verses cooking it out of the glycerin.
> 
> Logan Vilas
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:16 PM
> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] new alcohol ideas
> 
> Howdy Jason, there would be no advantage.  In the ethanol/water/castor oil
> scheme, one mixes E/W/C. 
> only ethanol dissolves in the castor oil.  then heating the C/E mix to about
> 80 degrees C separates 
> the ethanol from the castor oil.
> 
> what this does is get around the problem of the azeotrope of ethanol/water
> which is the lowest 
> boiling component of a mix of water/ethanol.  You can't separate the last 5%
> of water from ethanol 
> via distillation.
> 
> for glycerin this isn't an issue, just heat the stuff to close to 300
> degrees C. anything that boils 
> off at a lower temp is impurity, after is glycerin. (short form of
> discussion)
> 
> 
> Jason& Katie wrote:
>> i just had a bizarre idea. someone please argue with me on this, but if 
>> glycerine is categorized as an alcohol, would it work to use castor oil to
> 
>> purify it, the same as ethanol? ideas?comments?
>> Jason
>> ICQ#:  154998177
>> MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 

-- 
Bob Allen
http://www.ozarker.org/bob
-
Science is what we have learned about how to
keep from fooling ourselves.   Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

no, Terry, you need to look "outside the book"  he went to prison for 
larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed 
was is own larcenous enterprises.

  http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html


" he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit 
card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was 
filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using "unauthorized access 
devices" to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also 
swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and 
Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social 
security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked.

  Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make 
restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle 
Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two 
years probation.


did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at 
ripoffreport.com   ?






Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for 
> Pharmacitical corporations.  That info is in his book.
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500
>>
>> Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
>> to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
>> you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
>> Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>>
>>   Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever
>> seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
>> acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>> here is the ftc statement
>>
>> http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>>
>>
>> and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
>> federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
>> treated by the man.
>>
>>
>> http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>>
>> you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by 
>> Kevin
>>> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial 
>> world.
>>> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of 
>> corrupt
>>> work to please the share holders of his company.
>> then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
>> mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
>> whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>>
>>
>>He was expected to do this
>>> corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA 
>> quite
>>> often picks on small natural food companies and has there products 
>> banned
>>> for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line 
>> of
>>> Drug companies profits.
>> got a verifiable example?
>>
>>
>>> You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can
>>> influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid
>>> scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, 
>> etc.
>>
>> now here we agree.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>>>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>>>>
>>>> That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is 
>> what
>>>> I should have sent:
>>>>
>>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>>
>>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>>> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe
>>>> and D.
>>>>> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There i

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due 
to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, 
you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. 
Well, Trudeau went below that.


  Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever 
seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of 
acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.

here is the ftc statement

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm


and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a 
federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been 
treated by the man.


http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0

you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.



Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by Kevin 
> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.  
> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt 
> work to please the share holders of his company.

then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't 
mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question 
whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.


   He was expected to do this
> corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA quite 
> often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned 
> for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of 
> Drug companies profits.

got a verifiable example?


> You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can 
> influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid 
> scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc.

now here we agree.




> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>>
>> That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what
>> I should have sent:
>>
>> Howdy Terry,
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe 
>> and D.
>>> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science 
>> and
>>> bad science.
>> bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
>> via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
>> There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
>>
>>
>>   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
>>> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much 
>> published
>>> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.
>> or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
>> array of hucksters?
>>
>>
>>So
>>> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
>> not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
>> much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.
>>
>>
>>
>>   This is not
>>> good for human health.
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>>>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>>> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who 
>> can be
>>>> bought to produce desired
>>>> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained 
>> to
>>>> run computer
>>>> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate 
>> more
>>>> closely to
>>>> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
>>>> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour 
>> knowledge
>>>> into hung-over
>>>> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is 
>> awe
>>>> inspiring at times.
>>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -

Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

[bob allen]

JJJN wrote:
> Dang it I hate it when I make the same mistake twice.
> Again thanks for keeping me straight.  I also understand that it is 
> important to be clear when you are talking about things so closely related.
> 
> Could you give me a quick overview of what exactly happens in the 
> hydrogenation of oil and why that affects the gel point?

ok I'll give it a shot. Liquids solidify when all the component molecules can 
nestle together.  The 
more regular their structure, the more easily this will happen.  Saturated fats 
have a more regular 
structure than unsaturated fats, hence their gel points are higher. the 
unsaturation in vegetable 
oil amounts to putting kinks in otherwise regular chains.  Hydrogenation 
converts the source of the 
kinks- cis double bounds- to regular saturated chains, hence raising the gel 
point.


to recap:  saturated lipids, (usually from animal sources and called fats)  
regular structure, easy 
 nestling, high gel point.

unsaturated lipids ( usually from plant sources and called oils) 
irregular structure, 
difficult nestling, low gel point.


unsaturated bonds  + hydrogen---> saturated bonds  (the process is hence 
hydrogenation)



> 
> Jim
> 
> bob allen wrote:
> 
>>  you mean hydrogenated oil, hydrolyzed oil would be free fatty acids.
>>
>> "the scold"
>>
>>
>> JJJN wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> Hi Keith,
>>> I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with 
>>> about 50 % animal fat.  But I must use a heated system in winter as I 
>>> gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now.
>>> Let me know how you do with the Venturi.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>  
>>
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what 
I should have sent:

Howdy Terry,

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. 
> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science and 
> bad science. 

bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information 
via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. 
There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.


  When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published 
> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.

or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
array of hucksters?


   So
> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. 

not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.



  This is not
> good for human health.
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
>>
>> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be
>> bought to produce desired
>> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to
>> run computer
>> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more
>> closely to
>> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
>> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge
>> into hung-over
>> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe
>> inspiring at times.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was
>> Testimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kurt;
>>>
>>> Pardon my snipping style but.
>>>
>>> Kurt Nolte wrote:
>>> snip
>>>
>>>> On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
>>>> Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head.
>>>> These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
>>>> herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
>>>> efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by
>>>> synthetic processes just don't hack it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Actually I don't believe I ever said that!  I am opposing Bob to some
>>> degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I
>>> guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are
>>> saying about the others.  I am very scientifically inclined, I run a
>>> university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the
>>> idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the
>>> answers.  I still have great respect for science and believe that one
>>> day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain.  All I am
>>> suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something
>>> at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be
>>> rejected.  I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in
>>> dissagreement.  I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed
>>> minded.  Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

howdy terry

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. 
> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science and 
> bad science. 

bad science is an oxymoron.  One can pursue information via methods 
attempt to control confounding variables or not.  There is hype, 
marketing, downright lies etc.  but that is science.


  When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published 
> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. 

or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless 
array of hucksters.


So
> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.

not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see 
much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.



   This is not
> good for human health.

it depends



> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
>>
>> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be
>> bought to produce desired
>> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to
>> run computer
>> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more
>> closely to
>> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
>> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge
>> into hung-over
>> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe
>> inspiring at times.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was
>> Testimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kurt;
>>>
>>> Pardon my snipping style but.
>>>
>>> Kurt Nolte wrote:
>>> snip
>>>
>>>> On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
>>>> Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head.
>>>> These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
>>>> herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
>>>> efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by
>>>> synthetic processes just don't hack it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Actually I don't believe I ever said that!  I am opposing Bob to some
>>> degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I
>>> guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are
>>> saying about the others.  I am very scientifically inclined, I run a
>>> university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the
>>> idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the
>>> answers.  I still have great respect for science and believe that one
>>> day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain.  All I am
>>> suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something
>>> at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be
>>> rejected.  I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in
>>> dissagreement.  I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed
>>> minded.  Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
Bob Allen
http://www.ozarker.org/bob
-
Science is what we have learned about how to
keep from fooling ourselves.   Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

[bob allen]

  you mean hydrogenated oil, hydrolyzed oil would be free fatty acids.

"the scold"


JJJN wrote:
> Hi Keith,
> I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with 
> about 50 % animal fat.  But I must use a heated system in winter as I 
> gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now.
> Let me know how you do with the Venturi.
> 
>

-- 
Bob Allen
http://www.ozarker.org/bob
-
Science is what we have learned about how to
keep from fooling ourselves.   Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.

[bob allen]

just a point on terminology


>> 4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it.

you mean hydrogenated, not hydrolyzed.  Hydrolyzed oil would be free 
fatty acids.


-- 
Bob Allen
http://www.ozarker.org/bob
-
Science is what we have learned about how to
keep from fooling ourselves.   Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

and howdy to you

Keith Addison wrote:
> Hello Bob
> 
>>> ... until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable
>>> side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't just
>>> happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect
>>> either, would they now.
>> actually some may be.  The nocebo effect is well known.
> 
> Uh, try telling it to a thalidomide "baby". Or his/her mother. Or, 
> with so many tips of so many icebergs to choose from, how about 
> these? For instance.


actually I said some.  I was not implying all. I am well aware of the 
thalidomide issue. In fact I 
use it as a case study in my tox class.  An interesting feature if this is that 
although the drug 
was approved for use in Europe and england, cases of phcomelia started showing 
up around 1959. 
Because of the then active FDA in the US, it had not been approved. Dare I say 
that it had not been 
approved yet in the US because of higher scientific standards for safety and 
efficacy.

> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg54672.html
> [Biofuel] How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs
> 
> (The whole series is there in the archives.)
> 
> Sure, as Robert was saying, vaccinations and antibiotics certainly 
> have their uses - without them how many people would have died of 
> smallpox and polio etc? On the other hand, how many people would have 
> died in the same period without the widespread global use of their 
> traditional medicine systems (which is what the much-maligned 
> "alternatives" mostly are)? More would be dead, many more, hence the 
> rather more than mere lip-service paid to traditional healers by the 
> WHO in 3rd World development work.

one more time, I am not saying that traditional medicine in aggregate is 
ineffective, only that in a 
few recent cases which have in the past been touted as efficacious, the recored 
is mixed at best. 
Hence my adherence to science as the ultimate arbiter.


  As Kirk says, once a community has
> been using a remedy for generations they'll know how effective it is 
> and what the dangerous side-effects might be. Testimonial evidence, 
> yes. Much the same as the way medical science so often has to have 
> its feet pulled out of the fire by the findings of epidemiological 
> studies.

I consider epidimiology a effective methodology if done correctly.  
Epidemiology can discover 
effects undetectable in limited trials, simply because of the numbers.  
Consider for example the 
testing of an agent be it an herb, supplement or drug (they really are the same 
thing). You test it 
in a group of a thousand and find no ill effect.  You then market it and there 
turns out to be a 
fatal effect that only is observed one in ten thousand times. Hence 
epidemiological studies are 
merely another phase in testing


  So much for test-tubes sans real life in the real world with
> all its pesky variables and inconvenient interconnections.

that what science is all about- an attempt to untangle those variables to see 
what is real.
> 
> Both sides have their abuses and abusers. Quackery? How would you 
> describe Bayer's extraordinary attitude in refusing to withdraw the 
> antibiotics used in livestock feed that have led to lethally immune 
> pathogens for which there's now no cure? This danger - now a reality 
> (people are being killed by it) - was first revealed in scientific 
> studies decades ago.

I agree, science can only produce data, political action is necessary

  Using antibiotics in livestock feed is useless
> anyway - see the Danish example, for one. No more antibiotics, no 
> problems either, in a large national poultry industry. True science?
> 
> Am I now to be labelled "anti-science" in this futile attempt to draw 
> a clear line where there can only be grey areas?

no, in fact it would appear that you are taking a relatively scientific 
approach.


and a final note in closing: I will be away from my computer to attend for the 
umteenth time, the 
Helena blues festival, in the heart of the delta on the Mississippi river. back 
Sunday

( I am an old hippy, who makes his living as a chemistry professor.)

http://www.bluesandheritage.com/

  toodles


--
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

ock wrote:
>>> I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back
>>> in the OR
>>> with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as
>>> they worked
>>> on him.  I myself have had acupuncture for a several different 
>> problems. One
>>> was where
>>> I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while
>>> doing deep knee bends (don't try this)
>>> with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only 
>> hobble around.
>>> The doc gave me pain
>>> pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits.
>>> After a couple
>>> days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I
>>> saw the size
>>> of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in 
>> that first
>>> needle in the knee
>>> I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee.
>>> He stuck some
>>> more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles
>>> out. I walked out
>>> of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain
>>> came back, as he said
>>> it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches
>>> and pain pills
>>> which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did
>>> give
>>> permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that 
>> success depends
>>> on the skill of the
>>> practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely
>>> placed on meridians
>>> and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are 
>> targeted depending
>>> on the problem.
>>> These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized
>>> electronic equipment. They really exist.
>>> How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned
>>> perceptual powers.
>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
>>>
>>>
>>> Joe Street wrote:
>>>> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art 
>> 01145
>>> much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery
>>> is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a
>>> method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
>>> with needles.
>>>
>>> "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain
>>> have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
>>> findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
>>> pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointñbrain correlation...
>>>
>>> Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
>>> Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
>>> minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
>>> analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
>>> distributed pain neuromatrix...
>>>
>>>
>>> what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the
>>> treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have
>>> you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you
>>> know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far
>>> have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not
>>> trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence,
>>> consistent with the scientific method.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my
>>>> point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got
>>>> to be better.
>>>> I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of
>>>> them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
>>>> procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the 
placebo effect?

D. Mindock wrote:
> I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back 
> in the OR
> with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as 
> they worked
> on him.  I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One 
> was where
> I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while 
> doing deep knee bends (don't try this)
> with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. 
> The doc gave me pain
> pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. 
> After a couple
> days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I 
> saw the size
> of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first 
> needle in the knee
> I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. 
> He stuck some
> more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles 
> out. I walked out
> of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain 
> came back, as he said
> it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches 
> and pain pills
> which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did 
> give
> permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends 
> on the skill of the
> practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely 
> placed on meridians
> and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending 
> on the problem.
> These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized 
> electronic equipment. They really exist.
> How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned 
> perceptual powers.
> Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
> 
> 
> Joe Street wrote:
>> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
>>
>> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
> 
> much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery
> is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a
> method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
> with needles.
> 
> "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain
> have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
> findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
> pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...
> 
> Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
> Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
> minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
> analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
> distributed pain neuromatrix...
> 
> 
> what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the
> treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have
> you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you
> know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far
> have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not
> trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence,
> consistent with the scientific method.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my
>> point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got
>> to be better.
>> I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of
>> them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
>> procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> bob allen wrote:
>>> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure
>>> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is
>>> not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are
>>> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it
>>> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you
>>> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,
>>>
>>> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34
>>>
>>> you show me what you have.
>>>
>>

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

so Kirk if this is evidence of efficacy, (reality) is mine also?

  http://grouper.com/video/MediaDetails.aspx?id=422258


If my video is not reality, but yours is, what criteria do you use to 
separate the two




Kirk McLoren wrote:
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-799443241400641366&q=acupuncture 
> <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-799443241400641366&q=acupuncture>
>  
> Open heart surgery with only acupuncture as anesthetic.
>  
> Kirk
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Joe Street wrote:
>  > Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
>  >
>  >
> 
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
> 
> much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major
> surgery
> is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract
> describes a
> method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
> with needles.
> 
> "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human
> brain
> have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
> findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
> pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...
> 
> Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
> Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
> minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
> analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
> distributed pain neuromatrix...
> 
> 
> what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the
> treatment. This is a far cry from your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have
> you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you
> know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far
> have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not
> trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence,
> consistent with the scientific method.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  >
>  > I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue,
> but my
>  > point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic
> it's got
>  > to be better.
>  > I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a
> lotnone of
>  > them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
>  > procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.
>  >
>  > Joe
>  >
>  > bob allen wrote:
>  >> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?
> sure
>  >> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but
> that is
>  >> not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are
>  >> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally
> doubt it
>  >> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just
> because you
>  >> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found,
>  >>
>  >> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34
>  >>
>  >> you show me what you have.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> Joe Street wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> Hey Bob;
>  >>>
>  >>> Ever been under general anaesthesia?
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >> yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb"
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> Remember how you felt when you
>  >>
>  >>> came around?
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >> groggy
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> Did you puke?
>  >> no
>  >>
>  >> Like the worst hangover you ever had?
>  >>
>  >> not at all
>  >> Now
>  >>
>  >>> you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't
> gonna be
>  >>> easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink
> of death
>  >>> for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I
> really have
>  >>> to go get references for this?
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >> you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little
> scientific
>  >

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

every thing was hunky dory until you tried to align me with Bush- them's 
fighten' words ;-)


the obvious difference between me an a number of others on this list is 
simply what we are willing to accept as credible evidence.  Generally, I 
look for studies, published in peer reviewed journals of double blind 
placebo controlled experiments and/or well controlled prospective 
epidemiological studies.

   That is a very high standard to meet, but if met I can be relatively 
sure that I am not "fooling myself" (see the tag line below)


Joe Street wrote:
> Hi Bob;
> 
> Sorry for the cheap shot I thought you would take it as good natured 
> humour which is the way it was intended. Well I'm no neurologist but I 
> thought the sensory motor cortex is where a lot of that sensation stuff 
> goes on.  I know this because my daughter has partial seizures in that 
> very area and she experiences pain every time she has a seizure. If 
> accupuncture results in higher activation thresholds ( ie deactivation) 
> in that area does that not mean effectively - anaesthesia? That was how 
> I understood the paper but perhaps I have it all wrong. Anyways I felt 
> it WAS the serious support for my argument that you asked for. The other 
> comment re the herb cure was just added as an offhand remark, again with 
> humour, not intended to change the subject or run from anything, as I 
> said I felt I had a strong reference as it was.
> 
> Cheers
> Joe
> 
> bob allen wrote:
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>   
>>> Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob!  I like the way you 
>>> cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected 
>>> the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the 
>>> sham group .here
>>>
>>> "However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA 
>>> over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and 
>>> deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex."
>>> 
>>
>> I edited at this point as the following does not describe the 
>> aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites.
>>
>>Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, 
>> but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that 
>> acupuncture works as an anesthetic.
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>>> BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make 
>>> more money writing historical fiction for bushco
>>> 
>>
>> please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary
>>
>>No I haven't had
>>   
>>> surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic.  But I do have a testimonial about 
>>> how a chinese herbalist
>>> 
>>
>>
>> You're changing the subject Joe.  I have yet to see you respond to my 
>> calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for 
>> anesthesia in major surgery.  Come on, where the support for your claim.
>>
>>
>>
>> cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6
>>   
>>> months and western treatments were worse than ineffective.  But I know 
>>> you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better 
>>> on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that 
>>> time. LMAO. OK OK.  lets just drop the subject I guess.  We each have 
>>> our own viewpoints and leave it at that.
>>> 
>>
>> we already quite herbs but now you bring them back.  The subject is 
>> proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery.  A pretty simple premise
>>
>>   
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Joe Street wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>>> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery 
>>>> is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a 
>>>> method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked 
>>>> with needles.
>>>>
>>>> "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain 
>>>> have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary 
>>>> findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the 
>>>> pain-related

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

Joe Street wrote:
> Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob!  I like the way you 
> cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected 
> the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the 
> sham group .here
> 
> "However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA 
> over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and 
> deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex."

I edited at this point as the following does not describe the 
aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites.

   Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, 
but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that 
acupuncture works as an anesthetic.



> 
> BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make 
> more money writing historical fiction for bushco

please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary

   No I haven't had
> surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic.  But I do have a testimonial about 
> how a chinese herbalist


You're changing the subject Joe.  I have yet to see you respond to my 
calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for 
anesthesia in major surgery.  Come on, where the support for your claim.



cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6
> months and western treatments were worse than ineffective.  But I know 
> you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better 
> on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that 
> time. LMAO. OK OK.  lets just drop the subject I guess.  We each have 
> our own viewpoints and leave it at that.

we already quite herbs but now you bring them back.  The subject is 
proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery.  A pretty simple premise

> 
> Joe
> 
> bob allen wrote:
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>   
>>> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
>>>
>>> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
>>> 
>>
>> much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery 
>> is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a 
>> method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked 
>> with needles.
>>
>> "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain 
>> have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary 
>> findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the 
>> pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...
>>
>> Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point 
>> Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or 
>> minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject 
>> analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported 
>> distributed pain neuromatrix...
>>
>>
>> what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the 
>> treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.
>>
>>
>>
>> You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have 
>> you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you 
>> know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far 
>> have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not 
>> trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, 
>> consistent with the scientific method.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>>> I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my 
>>> point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got 
>>> to be better.
>>> I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of 
>>> them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical 
>>> procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure 
>>>> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is 
>>>> not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are 
>>>> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it 
>>>> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you 
>>>> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34
>>>>
>>

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

Joe Street wrote:
> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
> 
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145

much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery 
is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a 
method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked 
with needles.

"Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain 
have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary 
findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the 
pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...

Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point 
Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or 
minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject 
analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported 
distributed pain neuromatrix...


what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the 
treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.



You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have 
you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you 
know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far 
have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not 
trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, 
consistent with the scientific method.




> 
> I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my 
> point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got 
> to be better.
> I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of 
> them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical 
> procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.
> 
> Joe
> 
> bob allen wrote:
>> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure 
>> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is 
>> not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are 
>> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it 
>> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you 
>> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,
>>
>> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34
>>
>> you show me what you have.
>>
>>
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>   
>>> Hey Bob;
>>>
>>> Ever been under general anaesthesia? 
>>> 
>>
>> yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb"
>>
>>
>>   Remember how you felt when you
>>   
>>> came around?
>>> 
>>
>> groggy
>>
>>
>>   Did you puke?
>> no
>>
>> Like the worst hangover you ever had?
>>
>> not at all
>>Now
>>   
>>> you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be 
>>> easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death 
>>> for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have 
>>> to go get references for this? 
>>> 
>>
>> you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific 
>> evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how 
>> it works.
>>
>>
>> It's a waste of time for something so
>>   
>>> obvious.  I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room 
>>> last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL
>>> 
>>
>> this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as 
>> a general anesthetic for major surgery.  Do you have a reference or two 
>> to support your claim?
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Joe Street wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>>> Hi Bob;
>>>>> 
>>> snip
>>> 
>>>>> explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without 
>>>>> anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with 
>>>>> anaesthetic. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial 
>>>> please.
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>> 
>>>
>>> 

Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River,

[bob allen]

M&K DuPree wrote:


wow, I've become an archetype, even an cultural icon. :-)


>  We've become like the Bob's of the world, lost all our sense of 
> awe. 

oh, that's just awefull

--
Bob


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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure 
there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is 
not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are 
done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it 
but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you 
or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

you show me what you have.


Joe Street wrote:
> Hey Bob;
> 
> Ever been under general anaesthesia? 

yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb"


  Remember how you felt when you
> came around?

groggy


  Did you puke?
no

Like the worst hangover you ever had?

not at all
   Now
> you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be 
> easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death 
> for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have 
> to go get references for this? 

you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific 
evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how 
it works.


It's a waste of time for something so
> obvious.  I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room 
> last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL

this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as 
a general anesthetic for major surgery.  Do you have a reference or two 
to support your claim?


> 
> Joe
> 
> bob allen wrote:
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>   
>>> Hi Bob;
> snip
>>> explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without 
>>> anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with 
>>> anaesthetic. 
>>> 
>>
>> ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial 
>> please.
>>
>>   
>>   
> 
> 
> 
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
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> 


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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

Joe Street wrote:
> Hi Bob;
> 
> I said it before and I'll say it again. Who's gonna spend the money to 
> scientifically prove something they cannot control,

conversely, why try to provide reproducible data when testimony sells?


  works?  Just for
> this reason there isn't much to go on but testimony.  However the 
> corollary, someone with a lot of money, and who stands to lose a lot 
> would see it as a good investment to publish information which makes 
> herbs look bad, now that is a good possibility, vis big oil's spending 
> on anti-global warming research and disinformation campaign. However 
> much you may be able to shoot me down on this, I'll go ahead and say 
> it;  there is something sorta scientific we can say in this case.  We 
> rely on statistical information so heavily, sure a handful of bought 
> testimonials are worthless but what about generations worth?

and I have said it before, one testimonial is one, a hundred is a 
hundred, its still testimonial.  I do know that lots of traditional 
remedies contain efficacious agents, which have been proven.  I also 
know that some herbs which claim to work are tested, don't.

  What about
> a thousand years worth?  It's not a double blind study but obviously 
> something is up and people are on to it. If something is crap and is 
> hyped up with bought and paid for testimonials, it's not gonna stand the 
> test of time is it? 

   it depends on how gullible the buyer is, doesn't it


  Another example? Nobody has a scientific
> explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without 
> anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with 
> anaesthetic. 

ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial 
please.



  It's been known to work for a long time but nobody can
> explain it. 

IF IT works, I can explain it- placebo effect.


  Perhaps our science isn't good enough yet. Should we
> abandon accupuncture on this principle then?

   sticking needles a specific locations in the body to interrupt "Qi", 
which has no scientific reality, is producing a placebo effect if there 
  any effect at all.



> 
> Joe
> 
> bob allen wrote:
>> Guys, can't we get past testimonies for evidence?
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>   
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by 
>>> Northern American Natives for  thousands of years.
>>> 
>>
>> so?
>>
>>Ayurvedic doctors of
>>   
>>> India have studied herbs for centuries 
>>> 
>>
>>
>> and they drink their urine, so what?
>>
>> and so have Chinese herbal
>>   
>>> practicianers. 
>>> 
>>
>>
>> they also use tiger penises and bears gall bladders, so what?
>>
>>   Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining.
>>
>> but not as bad a willow bark salicin
>>   It can
>>   
>>> also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time.  I have 
>>> never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark.
>>> 
>>
>> uh, testimonial again.  sorry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Terry Dyck
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
>>>> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Howdy Terry.   First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years
>>>> of testimonies?  because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.
>>>> This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs
>>>> have been "discovered" from an examination of traditional medicine. You
>>>> can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.phcog.org/
>>>>
>>>> Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid,
>>>> obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american
>>>> indians.  Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to
>>>> the lining of the stomach.
>>>>
>>>> Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't
>>>> survived scientific scrutiny.
>>>>
>>>>glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort
>>>> are three that come to mind which 

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> The scary warning I am hearing is aspirin weakens blood vessels in the 
> eye rendering you possibly blind if you fall or otherwise subject the 
> eye to trauma.
> I am told Ginko does not do that

teswtimonial

  and offers all the blood thinning of
> aspirin for those taking aspirin for cardio benefit.
>  
> Kirk
> 
> */Terry Dyck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America
> and by
> Northern American Natives for thousands of years. Ayurvedic doctors of
> India have studied herbs for centuries and so have Chinese herbal
> practicianers. Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining.
> It can
> also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time.
> I have
> never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark.
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>  >From: bob allen
>  >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
>  >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500
>  >
>  >Howdy Terry. First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years
>  >of testimonies? because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.
>  >This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most
> drugs
>  >have been "discovered" from an examination of traditional
> medicine. You
>  >can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.
>  >
>  >http://www.phcog.org/
>  >
>  >Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic
> acid,
>  >obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american
>  >indians. Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to
>  >the lining of the stomach.
>  >
>  >Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't
>  >survived scientific scrutiny.
>  >
>  > glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort
>  >are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is
> no, or
>  >conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when
> measured via
>  >placebo controlled studies.
>  >
>  >of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial
>  >evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma
> huang
>  >(ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits.
>  >
>  > you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the
>  >information.
>  >
>      >
>  >
>  >Terry Dyck wrote:
>  > > Hi Bob,
>  > >
>  > > Good point. On the other hand is there not a difference between
> a short
>  > > term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of
>  > > testimonies?
>  > >
>  > > Terry Dyck
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >> From: bob allen
>  > >> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  > >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  > >> Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
>  > >> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >> you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >> "NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover
>  >investigation
>  > >> in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an
> infomercial for
>  > >> an alleged skin moisturizer called "Moisturol." Even though the
>  >producer
>  > >> was told that there was no scientific evidence that the
> product worked,
>  > >> he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical
> endorser and
>  > >> testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the
> infomercial was
>  > >> completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most
> of whom
>  > >> (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of
> the seven
>  > >> "satisfied customers" were actresses who received $50.
> Margaret Olsen,
>  > >> M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received
> $5,000 for
>  > >> her endorsement. The partici

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

Guys, can't we get past testimonies for evidence?

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by 
> Northern American Natives for  thousands of years.

so?

   Ayurvedic doctors of
> India have studied herbs for centuries 


and they drink their urine, so what?

and so have Chinese herbal
> practicianers. 


they also use tiger penises and bears gall bladders, so what?

  Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining.

but not as bad a willow bark salicin
  It can
> also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time.  I have 
> never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark.

uh, testimonial again.  sorry




> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
>> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500
>>
>> Howdy Terry.   First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years
>> of testimonies?  because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.
>> This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs
>> have been "discovered" from an examination of traditional medicine. You
>> can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.
>>
>> http://www.phcog.org/
>>
>> Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid,
>> obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american
>> indians.  Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to
>> the lining of the stomach.
>>
>> Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't
>> survived scientific scrutiny.
>>
>>glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort
>> are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or
>> conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via
>> placebo controlled studies.
>>
>> of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial
>> evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang
>> (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits.
>>
>>   you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the
>> information.
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> Good point.  On the other hand is there not a difference between a short
>>> term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of
>>> testimonies?
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
>>>> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover 
>> investigation
>>>> in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for
>>>> an alleged skin moisturizer called "Moisturol." Even though the 
>> producer
>>>> was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked,
>>>> he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and
>>>> testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was
>>>> completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom
>>>> (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven
>>>> "satisfied customers" were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen,
>>>> M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for
>>>> her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a
>>>> fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink
>>>> mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web
>>>> site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard
>>>> would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your 
>> product
>>>> to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006]
>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bob Allen
>>>>
>>>> _

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

M&K DuPree wrote:
> Hang in there D.  Not sure Bob can ever wrap his microscope 

sorry, I don't use them

around what
> you're saying, but maybe one day, when he takes one Big Pharma too many 
> and a "side effect" becomes a major effect that makes him wonder why 
> that isolated molecule combined with all those other isolated molecules 
> somehow could not perform the same synergistic effects as the originals 
> that evolved through millions of years of Mother Nature's 
> formulations.  Mike DuPree

ah yes the vitalist theory of chemistry- nature is good, synthesis is 
bad.  nonsense, this is an absolutist position with no meaning. drugs 
are good and bad and herbs are good and bad.  All I want is proof, hold 
the testimonial.  and that is all you guys give me.

>  
> - Original Message -
> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
> 
>  > Bob,
>  >   How many people have herbs (or supplements, essential oils, vitamins)
>  > killed vs Prescrip drugs? How many
>  > people have had their disease helped with prescrip drugs? which only 
> take
>  > care of symptoms at best and cause
>  > many side-effects, all nasty. The so-called science that validates these
>  > drugs is shameful.
>  >The reference to the bible was only to indicate that herbs have been
>  > around a long time. If they weren't
>  > effective or helpful, don't you think they would have disappeared a long
>  > time ago? If they were not effective
>  > do you think Big Pharma would be combing the jungles looking for 
> herbs used
>  > by indigenous people for
>  > quite a long time?
>  >Data is everywhere. We live immersed in data. Some can see it 
> where it
>  > points and others can't. Why should we abandon our intuition? For 
> science?
>  > Science will never show us the ultimate truth. Any thinking scientist 
> should
>  > use all the clues (mysteries) that are around us and in us and be in 
> awe of
>  > Nature.
>  > Peace, D. Mindock
>  >
>  > - Original Message -
>  > From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>  > To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
>  > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:05 AM
>  > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
>  >
>  >
>  >> D. Mindock wrote:
>  >>> Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. 
> Everything has
>  >>> a risk/benefit ratio.
>  >>
>  >> I agree, that is what I have been saying all along.  "The dose makes the
>  >> poison..." paracelsus
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>> Even water can be dangerous if you drink too much. Hard to do this but
>  >>> possible.
>  >>
>  >> actually this is a serious issue in certain diseases such as 
> schizophrenia
>  >>
>  >> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1587518&dopt=Abstract
>  
> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1587518&dopt=Abstract>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> But precrip drugs have a very poor safety record, especially
>  >>> when studies are compromised to give the desired result.
>  >>
>  >> and you don't think that the promotion of herbs and supplements might be
>  >> affected  by the income sales?  you have to be kidding.
>  >>
>  >>  That is not
>  >>> science.
>  >>> Essential oils, derived from herbs, are mentioned in the Bible many
>  >>> times.
>  >>
>  >> bible smible, what does the one true god, the flying spaghetti monster
>  >> say?
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> if there is money to be made whether in what you call big pharma or
>  >> little herb dealers, caveat emptor.  Me, I will avoid testimonials as
>  >> evidence of efficacy.  Everybody keeps telling me follow the money, fair
>  >> enough,  but I say to - show me the data
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>  Spikenard comes to mind.
>  >>> Some studies are designed to fail from the beginning. E.g., the vit E
>  >>> study that said vit E does
>  >>> not protect the heart. They intentionally used the dl type. Still 
> it did
>  >>> provide a weak protective
>  >&

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Bob,
>How many people have herbs (or supplements, essential oils, vitamins) 
> killed vs Prescrip drugs? 

I don't have any data, do you. In my personal experience 0 for 0. But in 
reality that is an unfair question. The fair question would be what is 
the therapeutic ratio of any particular agent, be it an herb or a 
pharmaceutical.


How many
> people have had their disease helped with prescrip drugs? 

in my personal experience many, and there is overwhelming proof of 
efficacy of many, many drugs.




which only take
> care of symptoms

I hear this a lot, it is a standard line among certain groups, but 
essentially meaningless.

  at best and cause
> many side-effects, all nasty.

um, you just said yourself that herbs have side effects, remember. so 
what is the point

Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. 
Everything has a risk/benefit ratio.


  The so-called science that validates these
> drugs is shameful.

again you are confusing fraud with science.

> The reference to the bible was only to indicate that herbs have been 
> around a long time. If they weren't
> effective or helpful, don't you think they would have disappeared a long 
> time ago?

no, the placebo effect is powerful

If they were not effective
> do you think Big Pharma would be combing the jungles looking for herbs used 
> by indigenous people for
> quite a long time?

crimey, D. we have been through this before. I said it my self.

testimonial is unreliable data. period


> Data is everywhere. We live immersed in data. Some can see it where it 
> points and others can't. Why should we abandon our intuition?

intuition is great for formulating a hypothesis. it sucks as evidence

  For science?
> Science will never show us the ultimate truth.

your changing the subject here D.  I never said anything about nirvana


  Any thinking scientist should
> use all the clues (mysteries) that are around us and in us

I and I dare say the majority of my colleagues do to. I am not however 
gullible.

  and be in awe of
> Nature.

I enjoy nature, I want to preserve our environment, but to be full of 
awe- well that is getting a little religious.


> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
> 
> 
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. Everything has
>>> a risk/benefit ratio.
>> I agree, that is what I have been saying all along.  "The dose makes the
>> poison..." paracelsus
>>
>>
>>
>>> Even water can be dangerous if you drink too much. Hard to do this but
>>> possible.
>> actually this is a serious issue in certain diseases such as schizophrenia
>>
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1587518&dopt=Abstract
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But precrip drugs have a very poor safety record, especially
>>> when studies are compromised to give the desired result.
>> and you don't think that the promotion of herbs and supplements might be
>> affected  by the income sales?  you have to be kidding.
>>
>>  That is not
>>> science.
>>> Essential oils, derived from herbs, are mentioned in the Bible many
>>> times.
>> bible smible, what does the one true god, the flying spaghetti monster 
>> say?
>>
>>
>> if there is money to be made whether in what you call big pharma or
>> little herb dealers, caveat emptor.  Me, I will avoid testimonials as
>> evidence of efficacy.  Everybody keeps telling me follow the money, fair
>> enough,  but I say to - show me the data
>>
>>
>>
>>  Spikenard comes to mind.
>>> Some studies are designed to fail from the beginning. E.g., the vit E
>>> study that said vit E does
>>> not protect the heart. They intentionally used the dl type. Still it did
>>> provide a weak protective
>>> effect if one actually read the results and ignored the media hysteria.
>>> If they had used d-alpha
>>> type the results would have been better.
>>
>> show me the data
>>
>>  But no, they used the synthetic
>>> form instead. And if they
>>> had used gamma tocopherol the results would have been good indeed.
>>
>> show me the data
>>> Anyway, we're being softened
>>> to give up our supplements or have them drastically weakened. Big Pharma
>>> wants no competition
>> nobody does, and if you look closely you will probably find big pharma
>> behind a number of sup

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. Everything has 
> a risk/benefit ratio.

I agree, that is what I have been saying all along.  "The dose makes the 
poison..." paracelsus



> Even water can be dangerous if you drink too much. Hard to do this but 
> possible. 

actually this is a serious issue in certain diseases such as schizophrenia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1587518&dopt=Abstract




But precrip drugs have a very poor safety record, especially
> when studies are compromised to give the desired result.

and you don't think that the promotion of herbs and supplements might be 
affected  by the income sales?  you have to be kidding.

  That is not
> science.
> Essential oils, derived from herbs, are mentioned in the Bible many 
> times.

bible smible, what does the one true god, the flying spaghetti monster say?


if there is money to be made whether in what you call big pharma or 
little herb dealers, caveat emptor.  Me, I will avoid testimonials as 
evidence of efficacy.  Everybody keeps telling me follow the money, fair 
enough,  but I say to - show me the data



  Spikenard comes to mind.
> Some studies are designed to fail from the beginning. E.g., the vit E 
> study that said vit E does
> not protect the heart. They intentionally used the dl type. Still it did 
> provide a weak protective
> effect if one actually read the results and ignored the media hysteria. 
> If they had used d-alpha
> type the results would have been better.


show me the data

  But no, they used the synthetic
> form instead. And if they
> had used gamma tocopherol the results would have been good indeed. 


show me the data
> Anyway, we're being softened
> to give up our supplements or have them drastically weakened. Big Pharma 
> wants no competition

nobody does, and if you look closely you will probably find big pharma 
behind a number of supplements.  They are not dumb, they like everybody 
else is in it, to some degree for the money. With herbs and supplements 
you don't need proof, just pay someone to give testimony.


and
> will use money and junk science to get rid of it. And disinfo. 
> We the People (the workers) are getting the royal shaft in health, 
> finances, and freedom. We used to pursue
> these things but now our government's policies is making them nonavailable.
> Peace, D. Mindock
>  
>  
> - Original Message -
> 
> *From:* Kirk McLoren <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
> 
> Margaret Olsen, M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles,
> received $5,000 for
> her endorsement.
>  
> Thats the problem with most of the MD pharma endorsements. placebo
> works as well or better.
> The white coat has heavy mojo.
> Herbs on the other hand have been endorsed by thousands of
> practitioners over dozens or more of generations.
> Which do you trust?
> 
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> 
> you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:
> 
> 
> "NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover
> investigation
> in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an
> infomercial for
> an alleged skin moisturizer called "Moisturol." Even though the
> producer
> was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product
> worked,
> he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical
> endorser and
> testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the
> infomercial was
> completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most
> of whom
> (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of
> the seven
> "satisfied customers" were actresses who received $50. Margaret
> Olsen,
> M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received
> $5,000 for
> her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product
> was a
> fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered
> chocolate drink
> mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on
> NBC's Web
>     site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product,
> how hard
> would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your
> product
>  

Re: [Biofuel] Thermate used on the WTC buildings

[bob allen]

hear ye, I am the ONE TRUE CONSPIRACY, thou shalt have no other conspiracies 
before me...

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> And the metal samples from the memorial site.
> Lets mark out the cold fusion with a felt tip and reduce the reply to 
> relevant comments.
> Another argument by obfuscation they are so practiced at.
> 
> Physical evidence - and why was it destroyed? Samples couldnt be taken 
> of metals sold as scrap?
> Why is that Bob?
> They couldnt get rid of the Murrah building fast enough either.
> That rubbble landfill is under armed guard last I heard.
> Kirk
>  
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> there is an old saw- " the first liar doesn't stand a chance". I am
> by no means calling anybody a
> liar, I'm just using that saw to segue to- "the first conspiracy
> doesn't..."
> 
> here is one that thinks Steven Jones is all wet, yet they apparently
> have their own conspiracy
> 
> http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=7095
> 
> 
> or here is one " Did NORAD Send The "Suicide" Jets? Part 1 of 2:
> Inside Job
> 
> http://www.public-action.com/911/noradsend.html
> 
> or this, it wasn't norad, it was the israeli's :
> 
> http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/stf1.html
> 
> or maybe it never happened, it was faked at fox news:
> 
> http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/
> 
> 
> et al.
> 
> 
> so gee, who's conspiracy are we to believe? ;->
> 
> 
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>  > I wonder if the members of this list that cant conceive of a
> government
>  > that would do this can get their minds around this interview?
>  > The professor certainly presents the simple truth.
>  > Kirk
>  >
>  > */"D. Mindock" /* wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > If there's conclusive evidence that thermite or thermate (souped up
>  > form of thermite is called thermate) was used in the
>  > collapse of the three WTC buildings then the conspiracy theory is no
>  > longer a theory. It becomes an unsettling fact that
>  > it was indeed an "inside job."
>  > Peace, D. Mindock
>  > ==
>  >
>  > 1 of 2
>  > Thermite Identified As Culprit Of WTC Collapse
>  > Evidence mounting that cause first identified on Alex Jones Show led
>  > to towers' implosion
>  > A new branch of 9/11 research claims to have identified the cause of
>  > the collapse of the twin towers. The photographic and video evidence
>  > makes a very strong case for thermite being responsible for the
>  > unprecedented implosions of steel framed reinforced buildings on
>  > September 11.
>  >
> 
> http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/240406thermiteidentified.htm
>  > 2 of 2
>  > Alex Jones interviews Steven Jones, a BYU physics professor, who
>  > has scientifically proven that a special mix of thermite and sulfur
>  > and *...* all *»* some other chemicals, known
>  > as thermate, was used to cut the WTC steel backbones. Thermate is
>  > widely used by the military and demolition companies as the cutting
>  > charges. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-284238498383411
>  > ___
>  > Biofuel mailing list
>  > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  >
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>  >
>  > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>  > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>  >
>  > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>  > messages):
>  > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>  >
>  >
>  >
> 
>  > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
>  >
>  > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
>  >
>  >
>  >
> 
>  >
>  > ___
>  > Biofuel mailing list
>  > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  >
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>

Re: [Biofuel] Thermate used on the WTC buildings

[bob allen]

there is an old saw- " the first liar doesn't stand a chance".  I am by no 
means calling anybody a 
liar, I'm just using that saw to segue to- "the first conspiracy doesn't..."

here is one that thinks Steven Jones is all wet, yet they apparently have their 
own conspiracy

  http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=7095


or here  is one " Did NORAD Send The "Suicide" Jets? Part 1 of 2: Inside Job

http://www.public-action.com/911/noradsend.html

or this, it wasn't norad, it was the israeli's :

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/stf1.html

or maybe it never happened, it was faked at fox news:

http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/


et al.


so gee, who's conspiracy are we to believe? ;->



Kirk McLoren wrote:
> I wonder if the members of this list that cant conceive of a government 
> that would do this can get their minds around this interview?
> The professor certainly presents the simple truth.
> Kirk
> 
> */"D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
>  
> If there's conclusive evidence that thermite or thermate (souped up
> form of thermite is called thermate) was used in the
> collapse of the three WTC buildings then the conspiracy theory is no
> longer a theory. It becomes an unsettling fact that
> it was indeed an "inside job."
> Peace, D. Mindock
> ==
>  
> 1 of 2
> Thermite Identified As Culprit Of WTC Collapse
> Evidence mounting that cause first identified on Alex Jones Show led
> to towers' implosion
> A new branch of 9/11 research claims to have identified the cause of
> the collapse of the twin towers. The photographic and video evidence
> makes a very strong case for thermite being responsible for the
> unprecedented implosions of steel framed reinforced buildings on
> September 11.
> 
> http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/240406thermiteidentified.htm
> 2 of 2
>  Alex Jones interviews Steven Jones, a BYU physics professor, who
> has scientifically proven that a special mix of thermite and sulfur
> and *...* all *»*  some other chemicals, known
> as thermate, was used to cut the WTC steel backbones. Thermate is
> widely used by the military and demolition companies as the cutting
> charges. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-284238498383411
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> 
> 
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> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
>  
> to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
> 
> 
> 
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=
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philosophy; that is, 
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Bush Owes Us an Apology

[bob allen]

robert and benita rabello wrote:
> D. Mindock wrote:
>> 
>> *This will be important history someday.  Everyone should read it.  Pat* **
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday, the US Senate approved "detainee" legislation that essentially 
> hands dictatorial power
> over to the president.  Once this bill is reconciled with the House version 
> and is signed by Mr.
> Bush, he will have the right to "detain" anyone he deems a 
> threat--irrespective of their
> citizenship--without trial, without evidence, for as long as it pleases him.  
> I thought, for a
> gleaming moment, that Senator McCain would show some spine 

naw, he has to move to the right to survive a republican nomination...



and garner support to defeat this
> ill-conceived legislation, but he and other senators who should know better 
> simply caved in.
> 
> Welcome to the fascist Republic of the United States . . .
> 
> Mr. Bush doesn't need to apologize if he's king.
> 
> robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind 
> http://www.newadventure.ca
> 
> Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
> 
> 
> 
> 
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=
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philosophy; that is,
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Re: [Biofuel] Odigo says workers were warned of attack [9/11]

[bob allen]

you know, if I ran a business and wanted to get my name out there, one way of 
doing it would be to 
start a rumor that something about what I do had some connection to 9/11 and 
then let the conspiracy 
folks run with it...

remember this name Odigo.  You are getting very sleepy, Odigo, very, very, 
sleepy, buy Odigo...

D. Mindock wrote:
> Odigo, an Israeli company, has an office not far from the location of 
> WTC. Peace, D. Mindock
> =
>  
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C
>  
> <http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C>
>  
>  
> Odigo says workers were warned of attack
> By Yuval Dror <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers 
> received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 
> 11 predicting the attack would happen, and the company has been 
> cooperating with Israeli and American law enforcement, including the 
> FBI, in trying to find the original sender of the message predicting the 
> attack.
> 
> Micha Macover, CEO of the company, said the two workers received the 
> messages and immediately after the terror attack informed the company's 
> management, which immediately contacted the Israeli security services, 
> which brought in the FBI.
> 
> "I have no idea why the message was sent to these two workers, who don't 
> know the sender. It may just have been someone who was joking and turned 
> out they accidentally got it right. And I don't know if our information 
> was useful in any of the arrests the FBI has made," said Macover. Odigo 
> is a U.S.-based company whose headquarters are in New York, with offices 
> in Herzliya.
> 
> As an instant messaging service, Odigo users are not limited to sending 
> messages only to people on their "buddy" list, as is the case with ICQ, 
> the other well-known Israeli instant messaging application.
> 
> Odigo usually zealously protects the privacy of its registered users, 
> said Macover, but in this case the company took the initiative to 
> provide the law enforcement services with the originating Internet 
> Presence address of the message, so the FBI could track down the 
> Internet Service Provider, and the actual sender of the original message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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=
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Re: [Biofuel] new alcohol ideas

[bob allen]

Howdy Jason, there would be no advantage.  In the ethanol/water/castor oil 
scheme, one mixes E/W/C. 
only ethanol dissolves in the castor oil.  then heating the C/E mix to about 80 
degrees C separates 
the ethanol from the castor oil.

what this does is get around the problem of the azeotrope of ethanol/water 
which is the lowest 
boiling component of a mix of water/ethanol.  You can't separate the last 5% of 
water from ethanol 
via distillation.

for glycerin this isn't an issue, just heat the stuff to close to 300 degrees 
C. anything that boils 
off at a lower temp is impurity, after is glycerin. (short form of discussion)


Jason& Katie wrote:
> i just had a bizarre idea. someone please argue with me on this, but if 
> glycerine is categorized as an alcohol, would it work to use castor oil to 
> purify it, the same as ethanol? ideas?comments?
> Jason
> ICQ#:  154998177
> MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=
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philosophy; that is, 
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

Howdy Terry.   First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years 
of testimonies?  because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.
This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs 
have been "discovered" from an examination of traditional medicine. You 
can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.

http://www.phcog.org/

Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid, 
obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american 
indians.  Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to 
the lining of the stomach.

Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't 
survived scientific scrutiny.

   glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort 
are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or 
conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via 
placebo controlled studies.

of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial 
evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang 
(ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits.

  you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the 
information.



Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Good point.  On the other hand is there not a difference between a short 
> term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of 
> testimonies?
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
>> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500
>>
>>
>> you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:
>>
>>
>> "NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation
>> in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for
>> an alleged skin moisturizer called "Moisturol." Even though the producer
>> was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked,
>> he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and
>> testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was
>> completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom
>> (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven
>> "satisfied customers" were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen,
>> M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for
>> her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a
>> fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink
>> mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web
>> site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard
>> would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your product
>> to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006]
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/"
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bob Allen
>>
>> ___
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>>
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>> messages):
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>>
> 
> 
> 
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[Biofuel] testimonials as proof

[bob allen]

you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:


"NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation 
in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for 
an alleged skin moisturizer called "Moisturol." Even though the producer 
was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked, 
he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and 
testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was 
completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom 
(including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven 
"satisfied customers" were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen, 
M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for 
her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a 
fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink 
mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web 
site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard 
would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your product 
to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006] 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/"


--
Bob Allen

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Re: [Biofuel] Illegal Immigration: The Treason Lobby

[bob allen]

sounds downright racist to me.

"They are not Western; they are of Aztlan...

Just look at the ethnic composition of Mexicans. Other than a small 
upper class of pure European blood, the vast majority of Mexicans are 
either Amerindian or Mestizos (mostly Amerindian with a few drops of 
Spaniard, or African, blood). In short, they are not European. They are 
Asiatic..."





Jason& Katie wrote:
> sounds a little aryan/survivalist/militant to me.
> 
> Jason
> ICQ#:  154998177
> MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Marylynn Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:46 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Illegal Immigration: The Treason Lobby
> 
> 
>> Interesting article
>>
>> Blankhttp://libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=159963
>>
>> Mary Lynn Schmidt
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
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>> messages):
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>>
>>
>> -- 
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>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Illegal Immigration: The Treason Lobby

[bob allen]

So Marylynn, if this was the position taken before european immigration 
to the western hemisphere, where would you be today?

Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
> Interesting article
> 
> Blankhttp://libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=159963
> 
> Mary Lynn Schmidt
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

when it comes to drugs, or herbs, or anything that impacts human physiology, 
the only reliable of 
measure of efficacy is reproducible, double blind, placebo controlled testing. 
Anything else is way 
to easy to manipulate (follow the money as I am told)




Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> If you do not consider testamonies from thousands of people as science than 
> what is science?
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
>> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:54:50 -0500
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> You are streching to find extreme examples from very diferent cultures.  
>> I
>>> never consider animal parts to be a herb.  Don't herbs have to be part 
>> of
>>> the botanical family? It is true that some parts of a few plants are
>>> poisiness.  The leaves of rhubard for an example.  The red stems of 
>> rhubard,
>>> however, are very nutritious.  Herbs are basically plant foods and they 
>> are
>>> very healthy. Herbs have been used for thousands of years.  Many people 
>> over
>>> those years have many testamonies of good results with using herbs.  Is 
>> this
>>> not good science?
>>>
>>
>>
>>   no it is not.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Terry Dyck
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
>>>> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:26:56 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Joe Street wrote:
>>>>> Hey Bob;
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, follow the money.  Where is the funding going to come from to
>>>>> test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves.
>>>>> Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they 
>> are
>>>>> forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't 
>> going
>>>>> to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell.
>>>> I totally agree, Joe.  But that still doesn't answer the question
>>>> about the true efficacy of numerous agents.   For instance, there has
>>>> been a  rash of poaching black bears in the Ozarks.  The carcases are
>>>> found sans gal bladders.  Why, because many, many years of tradition
>>>> in some cultures tells them that consuming the bear gal bladder makes
>>>> you a more manly man.
>>>>
>>>> That same argument is used for efficacy of tiger's penises and
>>>> numerous herbs.  How do you tell what is real and what is not?  it is
>>>> a very simple question with no simple answers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> bob allen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no
>>>>>> proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they
>>>>>> don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is
>>>>>> lacking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ___
>>>>> Biofuel mailing list
>>>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>>>
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>>>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>>> messages):
>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
>>>> --
>>>> -
>>>> The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest e

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> You are streching to find extreme examples from very diferent cultures.  I 
> never consider animal parts to be a herb.  Don't herbs have to be part of 
> the botanical family? It is true that some parts of a few plants are 
> poisiness.  The leaves of rhubard for an example.  The red stems of rhubard, 
> however, are very nutritious.  Herbs are basically plant foods and they are 
> very healthy. Herbs have been used for thousands of years.  Many people over 
> those years have many testamonies of good results with using herbs.  Is this 
> not good science?
> 



  no it is not.



> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
>> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:26:56 -0500
>>
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>> Hey Bob;
>>>
>>> Again, follow the money.  Where is the funding going to come from to
>>> test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves.
>>> Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are
>>> forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going
>>> to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell.
>>
>> I totally agree, Joe.  But that still doesn't answer the question
>> about the true efficacy of numerous agents.   For instance, there has
>> been a  rash of poaching black bears in the Ozarks.  The carcases are
>> found sans gal bladders.  Why, because many, many years of tradition
>> in some cultures tells them that consuming the bear gal bladder makes
>> you a more manly man.
>>
>> That same argument is used for efficacy of tiger's penises and
>> numerous herbs.  How do you tell what is real and what is not?  it is
>> a very simple question with no simple answers.
>>
>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>>
>>> snip
>>>
>>>> The
>>>> problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no
>>>> proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they
>>>> don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is
>>>> lacking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> snip
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Biofuel mailing list
>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
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>>>
>>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
>> --
>> -
>> The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
>> in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
>> justification for selfishness  JKG
>> 
>>
>>
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> 
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
--
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--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> No - the beta carotene is water soluble.

want to bet?  I guess you wouldn't trust me, but regardless, I worked 
with the stuff last spring, I had a student examine the UV spectra of 
beta carotene (dissolved in benzene) vs the spectrum of red palm oil. 
the are essentially identical.  the point is I know that the stuff 
water insoluble.  Just look at the chemical structure- its a 
hydrocarbon.

  BETA-CAROTENE
SOLUBILITY IN WATER, insoluble. pH. VAPOR DENSITY. REFRACTIVE INDEX 
... One molecule of beta-carotene splits into two molecules of vitamin 
A and thus ...
www.chemicalland21.com/lifescience/foco/BETA-CAROTENE.htm - 65k - 
Cached - Similar pages


now you find me a citation where it says the stuff is water soluble.



  The premise is the body wont
> make a toxic level of vitamin A from it.
> As for quack watch they are a bunch of quacks. Good god Bob what do you 
> expect a bunch of allopaths to say about non allopathic medicine? 

ah yes, allopathy, otherwise known as science-based medicine vs 
homeopathy, otherwise known as nonsense.


It
> will be a cold day in hell when they give an unprejudiced report. Our 
> metasticised cancer cure rate is no better than before -- after 30 years 
> of "war on cancer" The only improvement the allopaths have is earlier 
>  detection.

do you have a reference for that statistic?  Is it from the same 
source that informed you about the solubility of beta carotene? I do 
know that for most cancers both morbidity and mortality are both down 
over the last 30 yrs.

see the rather extensive files available at

http://www.cancer.gov/statistics/

  And we are to bend our knee and kiss their ring? I think not.

just you kirk, not me. ;->

>  
> As for non Harvard data base modalities the cesium chloride mouse study 
> was interesting yet all we see is is the American Cancer Society warning 
> about toxicity.

  you lost me here, direct me to a reference to the CsCl study



The master poisoners - and that is what chemotherapy

um, this would be ad hominem by proxy attack?
is
> - discourage cesium because the ld50 is 160 grams or thereabouts.

the simplest probe of toxicity is LD50 usually expressed as mass/unit 
body wt.  You gave me a number that is undefined. From the literature 
one finds:

Oral rat LD50: 2004 mg/kg. Oral mouse LD50: 2306 mg/kg. Investigated 
as a mutagen and reproductive effector.



> I'm curious Bob what the ld50 for NaCl is. 

  ORL-RAT LD50 3000 mg kg-1 this stuff is really easy to get kirk, I 
send my students to the literature every day for toxicological data



I think 160 grams of table
> salt could be quite an ordeal.
> So the ACS hype is just that perhaps. The university study claimed 
> remission in 97% of the mice if I recall correctly. So where is the 
> double blind study?
>  
> LEF hosts the federal paper.



  Not their work - and the study was vitamin
> A not beta carotene.
> LEF is a good resource. They have a lot of interesting papers.
>  
> Kirk
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>  > Actually the carrot contains beta carotene
> 
> yes of course, and it is what makes "red palm oil" red.
> 
> 
> which is used in the body to
>  > make vitamin A. It is water soluble
> 
> no kirk, not that it matters here but it is one of the fat soluble
> vitamins. It is stored in the liver of many animals.
> 
> 
> and Lorraine Day MD took enough to
>  > turn herself orange. She believed it helped her overcome breast
> cancer.
> 
> actually there is no evidence that it was cancer. from quackwatch.com
> 
> Lorraine Day, M.D., would like you to believe that she has discovered
> the answer to cancer and that her experience as a patient qualifies
> her to give advice about cancer. She warns against trusting the
> medical profession and claims that all drugs can cause cancer. Her
> videotapes state (falsely) that standard cancer treatment has never
> cured anyone and that nobody should undergo chemotherapy and radiation
> for any cancer. She speaks eloquently and from the heart, but her
> tapes are filled with factual errors and far-fetched claims. I believe
> that her advice is untrustworthy and dangerous to the extent that it
> steers people away from effective treatment.
> 
> The centerpiece of Day's story is that she cured herself of a
> grapefruit-sized lump that she says was a recurrence of her breast
> cancer. But she has refused to disclose any medical records that would
> confirm that the mass was cancer (rather than a cyst)
> 
> 
>  > The use of 100,000 units of A a day recover

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

you're right tom, I got my vitamins A and D commingled.

Thomas Kelly wrote:
> Bob,
>  I think you are right re: Vit A being toxic. It is definitely 
> considered to be teratogenic.
>  I thought it was Vitamin D in polar bear and walrus liver that was 
> toxic.
>  One explanation of the evolution of light skin color was based on the 
> idea that sunlight converts precursors (ergosterol?) into Vit D 
> (calciferol). Primitive diets were low in Vitamin D. The explanation 
> suggests that as humans migrated, increasing latitudes > more skin 
> covering + less direct sunlight. Those with lighter skin    greater 
> absorption of appropriate wavelengths, and Vit D production. The exceptions 
> to the northern environment and light skin story are those whose diet 
> included the livers of polar bears and walruses  ...  rich in Vit D.

one of the cutest ( and I don't use the term often) photos I've seen 
was it a photo album called a day in the life of Russia.  The photo 
was of a group of preschool age children, clad only in underpants and 
goggles, standing around a UV lamp. This was in Siberia above the 
arctic circle in winter.


I recently read of another issue.  Folic acid is apparently degraded 
in too much sunlight.  So the earliest humans from northeast Africa 
had dark complexions to limit folic acid destruction.

>   I heard that you should not eat polar bear or walrus liver more than 
> once a month. Personally, I'm trying to give it up entirely.
>Tom
> 
> P.S.  I meant no disrespect re:  "Howdy". I think it is more personal than 
> "Hello". I wish it flowed as naturally from my mouth as it does from my 
> keyboard.
>Howdy seems to be short for "How do you do?"
> What does "Hello" mean?
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 12:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
> 
> 
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> There have been a considerable number of studies on herbs. It is a myth 
>>> that
>>> herbs haven't
>>> been studied. BTW, an herb is any plant that has
>>> special properties. A carrot might be called an herb since it helps the
>>> eyes.
>>
>> your example is proving one of my points.  you cant necessarily trust
>> traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is
>> vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic
>> at higher concentrations.  There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear
>> liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen
>> you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as
>> halibut.
>>
>> http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/carrots.asp
>>
>> Claim:   Eating carrots results in improved vision.
>>
>> Status:   False.
>>
>>
>> your example is proving one of my points.  you cant necessarily trust
>> traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is
>> vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic
>> at higher concentrations.  There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear
>> liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen
>> you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as
>> halibut.
>>
>> If thing were so simple as natural is safe and good and synthetic is
>> bad...
>>
>>  Strawberries slow
>>> down cancer.
>> I.E., they have medicinal properties. Big Pharma will study an
>>> herb to pick out those chemicals that have the properties they're looking
>>> for. E.g., Cat's Claw (graviola is another) is believed to have 
>>> anti-cancer
>>> properties. So a drug company will look for what they believe is the
>>> "active" ingredient and find the chemical analogue.
>> I am not well versed in chemical patent law but I think you are
>> oversimplifying here.  Generally the reason companies look for analogs
>> is to find better efficacy, lowered side effects,  simpler structures
>> which lend themselves to production, or any combination thereof.
>>
>>
>>  Merely extracting the
>>> active ingredient will not allow the patenting of it. But the man-made
>>> analogue of it will. So they test the analogue and then submit it to the 
>>> FDA
>>> for its test. 200 million dollars is the figure
>>> I have heard that this test costs. So, the ability to get a patent on a
>>> synthetic analogue is what gives Big Pharma
>>> the leve

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> Actually the carrot contains beta carotene 

yes of course, and it is what makes "red palm oil" red.


which is used in the body to
> make vitamin A. It is water soluble

no kirk, not that it matters here but it is one of the fat soluble 
vitamins.  It is stored in the liver of many animals.


  and Lorraine Day MD took enough to
> turn herself orange. She believed it helped her overcome breast cancer.

actually there is no evidence that it was cancer.  from quackwatch.com

Lorraine Day, M.D., would like you to believe that she has discovered 
the answer to cancer and that her experience as a patient qualifies 
her to give advice about cancer. She warns against trusting the 
medical profession and claims that all drugs can cause cancer. Her 
videotapes state (falsely) that standard cancer treatment has never 
cured anyone and that nobody should undergo chemotherapy and radiation 
for any cancer. She speaks eloquently and from the heart, but her 
tapes are filled with factual errors and far-fetched claims. I believe 
that her advice is untrustworthy and dangerous to the extent that it 
steers people away from effective treatment.

The centerpiece of Day's story is that she cured herself of a 
grapefruit-sized lump that she says was a recurrence of her breast 
cancer. But she has refused to disclose any medical records that would 
confirm that the mass was cancer (rather than a cyst)


> The use of 100,000 units of A a day recovered 30% of lost lung function 
> in a Federal study (patients had emphysema)

> see lef.org for a copy of the paper.

lef.org better update their files before they hurt someone.  One study 
employing beta carotene(20 mg/day) was cut short when it was realized 
that:


 ATBC researchers reported that men who took beta-carotene had an 
18 percent increased incidence of lung cancers and an 8 percent 
increased overall mortality. Vitamin E had no effect on lung cancer 
incidence or overall mortality. The men taking both supplements had 
outcomes similar to those taking beta-carotene alone

(New England Journal of Medicine 1994;330:1029)




>  
> Kirk
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> D. Mindock wrote:
>  > There have been a considerable number of studies on herbs. It is
> a myth that
>  > herbs haven't
>  > been studied. BTW, an herb is any plant that has
>  > special properties. A carrot might be called an herb since it
> helps the
>  > eyes.
> 
> 
> your example is proving one of my points. you cant necessarily trust
> traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is
> vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic
> at higher concentrations. There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear
> liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen
> you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as
> halibut.
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/carrots.asp
> 
> Claim: Eating carrots results in improved vision.
> 
> Status: False.
> 
> 
> your example is proving one of my points. you cant necessarily trust
> traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is
> vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic
> at higher concentrations. There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear
> liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen
> you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as
> halibut.
> 
> If thing were so simple as natural is safe and good and synthetic is
> bad...
> 
> Strawberries slow
>  > down cancer.
> 
> I.E., they have medicinal properties. Big Pharma will study an
>  > herb to pick out those chemicals that have the properties they're
> looking
>  > for. E.g., Cat's Claw (graviola is another) is believed to have
> anti-cancer
>  > properties. So a drug company will look for what they believe is the
>  > "active" ingredient and find the chemical analogue.
> 
> I am not well versed in chemical patent law but I think you are
> oversimplifying here. Generally the reason companies look for analogs
> is to find better efficacy, lowered side effects, simpler structures
> which lend themselves to production, or any combination thereof.
> 
> 
> Merely extracting the
>  > active ingredient will not allow the patenting of it. But the
> man-made
>  > analogue of it will. So they test the analogue and then submit it
> to the FDA
>  > for its test. 200 million dollars is the figure
>  > I have heard that this test costs. So, t

Re: [Biofuel] was..Bring loaded firearms aboard

[bob allen]

I stand corrected

Chip Mefford wrote:
> bob allen wrote:
>> this became an issue in Arkansas when a concealed carry law passed. 
>> The question was, are there places that concealed handguns can't be 
>> carried even if you have a permit. Thankfully bars are a place a 
>> concealed weapon can't go.
> 
> Point.
> 
> That is not logically true.
> 
> Bars would be places where concealed weapons MAY not go.
> 
> Or more to the point,
> places where LEGAL concealed weapons MAY not go.
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 


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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

I don't disagree with a thing you say here Tom, and as for Howdy, I 
guess it does sound humorous outside my midwestern origins but there, 
  it is quite natural.

so eat and diverse diet, rich in fruits and vegetables...

Thomas Kelly wrote:
> Bob,
>   Good day to you.
>   I would like to throw in my penny's worth into a discussion between 
> yourself and Joe S.
> 
> Joe: "Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically 
> when the whole plant is consumed."
> 
> Bob: " the problem is how do you prove it."
> 
>  Difficult
>  While I agree that many chemicals isolated from living organism are 
> biologically active even in pure form, I would like to suggest that others 
> are active within the context of their natural environment. That is, they 
> are most active when interacting with other chemicals in the food they are 
> derived from.
>  Antioxidants appear to protect biologically important molecules from 
> free radicals.
> 
>  Pat Kendall, Ph.D., R.D.  Food Science and Nutritional Specialist  at 
> Colorado State University Cooperative Extension  wrote "Good Food Sources of 
> Antioxidants" in March of 2000 www.colostate.edu/pubs/columnnn/nn000322.html
> 
>  Dr. Kendall suggests foods rather than supplements because fruits and 
> vegetables contain "other complimentary nutrients and phytochemicals."
> --
>  The American Heart Association (in Scientific Advisory 8/2/04) 
> www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3023709  suggests: "Get 
> antioxidants from food, not supplements"
> 
>  Individual antioxidant isolated and purified have little benefit, even 
> negative effects. This was also true of isolated, purified antioxidants that 
> were mixed in a "cocktail."
> -
>   
> www.clevelandclinic.org/heartcenter/pub/guide/prevention/nutrition/antioxidants
> 
> "Studies have shown that eating a diet rich in antioxidant-containing foods, 
> such as fruits, vegetables and whole grains, has been linked to a reduced 
> risk of cardiovascular disease."
> 
> These antioxidants seem to have beneficial effects, but the effects seem 
> to be greatest when taken as part of the complex mix we call food.
> 
>   My point is that Good food is good for you. I think there should be at 
> least some doubt that the goodness in it can be isolated, purified, taken 
> individually or compounded into the same goodness that came off the vine or 
> the hoof.
> 
>  Regarding Joe's point that "Plants contain many compounds and they can 
> and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed."
>  Though I can't poove it, I certainly wouldn't dismiss it. I believe 
> there is evidence that supports it.
>  I think we might consider an enzyme catalyzed biochemical pathway that 
> involved a coenzyme such as niacin and a cofactor such as magnesium. The 
> consumption of an organism having the same biochemical pathway would provide 
> both substances, and hence have more significant effect on the consumer than 
> consuming either in purified form. The products of digestion would even 
> provide the specific amino acids needed to build the particular enzymes in 
> the pathway.
> 
>  Regards,
>   Tom
> 
> P.S. Bob,  I have to confess to stealing something from you. I always get a 
> kick out of your "Howdy Tom" when you reply. I used it recently in an e-mail 
> to my oldest son. He came right back with it. > good case of the grins.
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
> 
> 
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>>
>>> snip
>>>> most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more
>>>> predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to
>>>> accumulate statistically relevant data.   The problems with herbs as I
>>>> see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and
>>>> secondly, dosage is unclear.  Amounts of efficacious agents varies
>>>> from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how
>>>> it is grown.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single
>>> substance within a plant which seemed

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> There have been a considerable number of studies on herbs. It is a myth that 
> herbs haven't
> been studied. BTW, an herb is any plant that has
> special properties. A carrot might be called an herb since it helps the 
> eyes.


your example is proving one of my points.  you cant necessarily trust 
traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is 
vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic 
at higher concentrations.  There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear 
liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen 
you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as 
halibut.

http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/carrots.asp

Claim:   Eating carrots results in improved vision.

Status:   False.


your example is proving one of my points.  you cant necessarily trust 
traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is 
vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic 
at higher concentrations.  There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear 
liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen 
you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as 
halibut.

If thing were so simple as natural is safe and good and synthetic is 
bad...

  Strawberries slow
> down cancer. 

I.E., they have medicinal properties. Big Pharma will study an
> herb to pick out those chemicals that have the properties they're looking 
> for. E.g., Cat's Claw (graviola is another) is believed to have anti-cancer 
> properties. So a drug company will look for what they believe is the 
> "active" ingredient and find the chemical analogue.

I am not well versed in chemical patent law but I think you are 
oversimplifying here.  Generally the reason companies look for analogs 
is to find better efficacy, lowered side effects,  simpler structures 
which lend themselves to production, or any combination thereof.


  Merely extracting the
> active ingredient will not allow the patenting of it. But the man-made 
> analogue of it will. So they test the analogue and then submit it to the FDA 
> for its test. 200 million dollars is the figure
> I have heard that this test costs. So, the ability to get a patent on a 
> synthetic analogue is what gives Big Pharma
> the leverage to make billions on just one new drug. The markup on a drug is 
> sometimes as high as
> 50,000%, making drug manufacturing obscenely lucrative. The ones that bomb, 
> like Vioxx, are just the
> cost of doing business. With the huge markups and huge profits comes 
> political power, unfortunately for us
> all.

no argument there

> Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
> 
> 
>> Hey Bob;
>>
>> Again, follow the money.  Where is the funding going to come from to
>> test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves.
>> Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are
>> forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going
>> to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> bob allen wrote:
>>
>> snip
>>
>>> The
>>> problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no
>>> proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they
>>> don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is
>>> lacking.
>>>
>>>
>> snip
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
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> 
> 
> 


-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 


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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

Joe Street wrote:
> Hey Bob;
> 
> Again, follow the money.  Where is the funding going to come from to 
> test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves.  
> Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are 
> forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going 
> to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell.


I totally agree, Joe.  But that still doesn't answer the question 
about the true efficacy of numerous agents.   For instance, there has 
been a  rash of poaching black bears in the Ozarks.  The carcases are 
found sans gal bladders.  Why, because many, many years of tradition 
in some cultures tells them that consuming the bear gal bladder makes 
you a more manly man.

That same argument is used for efficacy of tiger's penises and 
numerous herbs.  How do you tell what is real and what is not?  it is 
a very simple question with no simple answers.


> 
> Joe
> 
> bob allen wrote:
> 
> snip
> 
>> The 
>> problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no 
>> proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they 
>> don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is 
>> lacking. 
>>  
>>
> snip
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 


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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

howdy Johnathan ( you better sit down)

Jonathan Hardin wrote:
> Actually Terry I think you ment that Kirk was right.   Herbs are 
> produced by plants which, for the most part have a comparitively similar 
> biological system (we have 50% the same DNA as a Bananna).  That is they 
> produce only one of the two isomers (L instead of both D and L like you 
> would normally get in a lab).   The D isomer is 'usually' the one that 
> causes problems. 

no disrespect but nonsense. D and L are terms which relate to the 
stereochemistry of something only by proxy. (It is a long story)


  The morning sickness pill back in the 70's I think it
> was. 

  I do: thalidomide, and it is a nonissue because under physiological 
conditions, the good (or bad) form racemises  to the bad (or good)- in 
this case. But this is just one case.


  Can't remember its name off the top of my head.  The one that
> caused all the birth defects; the birth defects were caused by one 
> isomer, the morning sickness was cured by the other.   The only 
> difference between the two?   A hydrogen atom faced a different 
> direction on one as compaired to the other.Isolate the isomer that 
> helps with morning sickness and you don't get the birth defects. 
> That said, it is very expensive to seperate isomers, so the drug 
> companies, and the FDA by implication let them stay in their mixture 
> unless the side effects (usually caused by one of the isomers)

this is too general to have any real substantial meaning.  I could 
type all day with expect ions to your generalizations.

  is too
> severe and the benefits of the pill too great.  Then the drug companies 
> will spend the time and money to isolate the right isomer and make a 
> pill with a pure form of it. It comes down to money, and a public 
> who isn't informed about this.   If the public refused to buy any drug 
> that wasn't in a pure (non-racemic) form I'm sure that you'd find the 
> drug companies scrambling to make pure forms of the drugs. 

Again I am not trying to be mean spirited, but you know just enough to 
really confuse people


  It would
> suddenly be in the best interest of their pocket-books.
> 
> That said, sometimes herbs can produce chemicals our bodys don't like, 
> but, those are usually poisions, so we don't usually take them.   
> "Natural" isn't necessarily "safer" it's just, for the most part, a more 
> pure, or less harsh form of something. 


this doesn't mean much of a thing in a chemical or physiological 
sense.  Take ephedra for example, low doses to some folks fine, low 
doses with comprised cardiovascular system deadly.


   Many of the drugs are based off
> of the mechanisms of how the plants work, but it's the racemic mixture 
> of isomers that causes the side effects.  
> 
> Money makes the world go round...

yes, good money is paid to people to really understand this stuff. 
sorry if I sound harsh.


> 
> Jonathan Hardin
> 
> On 9/19/06, *Terry Dyck* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Joe is right; herbs are better than synthetic drugs for the simple
> reason
> that you just mentioned, drugs have side effects.  Herbs are
> actually foods.
>   It is only confusing because our modern day society has put herbs into
> capsules.  Originally herbs were only eaten just as we eat
> vegetables. Herbs
> do work but people have to be patient and they have to know about
> the whole
> part of healing; such as eliminating junk foods, exercise, stress
> elimination, promoting a strong immune system, etc.
> I believe it was Hippocrites who wrote:  Let food be your medicine
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>  >From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>  >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>  >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>  >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
>  >Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:18:35 -0500
>  >
>  >Howdy Joe, Mike, et al
>  >
>  >Joe Street wrote:
>  > > Hi Mike;
>  > >
>  > > There is a part of me ( the part I like to think is wise) that
> tends to
>  > > trust what comes out of mother nature's laboratory much more
> than the
>  > > industrial product. This is why I use butter not margarine.
>  >
>  >better the devil you know than the devil you don't know? (butter,
>  >saturated fat and cholesterol vs margarine, trans fats)
>  

Re: [Biofuel] was..Bring loaded firearms aboard

[bob allen]

this became an issue in Arkansas when a concealed carry law passed. 
The question was, are there places that concealed handguns can't be 
carried even if you have a permit. Thankfully bars are a place a 
concealed weapon can't go.


AltEnergyNetwork wrote:
> 
> Yes, I can imagine 2 passengers having a few drinks, then getting
> in to an arguement about something. One of them politely asks a
> flight attendant for a few rounds to take out the other one...what
> fun. I think I'll pass on those flights as well. Was this nut case,
> a conservative blogger by any chance?
> 
> regards tallex
> 
> 
>> ---Original Message--- From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring loaded firearms aboard Sent: 18 Sep
>> '06 12:43
>> 
>> guns and liquor, now there is a winning combination. I'll pass on
>> that flight.
>> 
>> Chip Mefford wrote:
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> Garrison makes some good points. Peace, D. Mindock
>>> 
>>> --interesting read snipped.
>>> 
>>> Once upon a time, not so very long ago,
>>> 
>>> I recall some blogger or loudmouth going on and on about his 
>>> idea for an air line.
>>> 
>>> This would be an international airline.
>>> 
>>> The deal was,
>>> 
>>> 1)You can bring your own sidearm, you just have to use our
>>> ammo** 2) You can drink on our airline. 3) you can smoke
>>> cigars,cigarettes,pipe in our smoking lounge. 4) Once over
>>> international air-space, you can smoke pot/hash on board our
>>> airline. (in our smoking lounge) 5)you can handcarry your
>>> baggage.
>>> 
>>> **ammo would be standard stuff with a turned nylon slug, which
>>> is lethal at close range, but has very very poor penetration.
>>> 
>>> Now, as to how you get legal pot/hash aboard in the first 
>>> place, I have no idea. But I thought it was interesting.
>>> 
>>> His point was, you could charge whatever you wanted for fares, 
>>> and would probably solid-book every flight, and in fact, have
>>> huge waiting lists.
>>> 
>>> I know I'd fly this airline.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___ Biofuel mailing
>>> list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
>>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>> 
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>>> (50,000 messages): 
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> 
> Get your daily alternative energy news
> 
> Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources 
> updated daily
> 
> http://www.alternate-energy.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
> 
> 
> Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/
> 
> 
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
> 
> 
> Earth_Rescue_International 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/
> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> --
>>  Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob 
>> --
>>  
>> -
>>  The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest
>> exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior
>> moral justification for selfishness  JKG 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___ Biofuel mailing
>> list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> 
>> 
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>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> 
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
>> (50,000 messages): 
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>> 
>> 
> 
> ___ Biofuel mailing
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> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Fore

Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[bob allen]

   Osama bin laden is an engineer

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> There was no falling until the first failure. A little logic would go a 
> long way here.
> And it fell straight down. If it hadnt the rubble pile would have 
> extended in the direction of fall.
> Not rocket science here. Just basic evidence.
> BTW Robert - you an engineer? I am - and my daughter is a PE.
> Stay comfortable in your belief set. I'm sure you will.
>  
> Kirk
> 
> */robert and benita rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> 
>  > To fall straight down means the failures supposedly caused by
> heat all
>  > happened at the same time. In the real world they lean to the failed
>  > side and then forces cause more failures. It is a very tricky
> business
>  > making them fall straight down.
> 
> 
> But the dust prevented observers from actually witnessing the manner
> in which the lower floors fell. Additionally, ALL of the force that
> destroyed the towers came from the mass of upper floor falling directly
> on top of lower floors--kind of like crushing a soda can underfoot.
> It's not difficult to understand how this happened, unless one is
> UNWILLING to accept the simplest, most straightforward explanation.
> 
> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.newadventure.ca
> 
> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
> 
> 
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> 
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> messages):
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> 
> 
> 
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great 
> rates starting at 1¢/min. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com>
> 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com>
>  
> Check it out. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42974/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview>
> 
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 


___
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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Joe is right; herbs are better than synthetic drugs for the simple reason 
> that you just mentioned, drugs have side effects. 

might herbs not have side effects because they don't to anything 
anyway? (actually they do have side effects when properly tested) The 
problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no 
proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they 
don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is 
lacking. So proof of efficacy is what any one wants to say, even if 
they have an agenda to get rich on someone elses gullibility.  The 
ones I have heard of most recently which have undergone rigorous 
testing have produced mixed results at best.

re: saw palemetto for prostate problems

  http://www.herbalgram.org/default.asp?c=sawpalmBPH

In the new trial reported in NEJM, conducted at the University of 
California at San Francisco, 225 men (112 in saw palmetto group; 113 
placebo) 49 years of age or older with moderate to severe BPH were 
randomly assigned to groups who took a leading saw palmetto extract 
(160mg twice daily, the normal dose shown effective in over 21 
clinical trials) or a matching placebo capsule. The patients made 8 
study visits over a one-year period to assess changes in the AUASI 
scores (this is the primary outcome of the trial), maximal urine flow, 
post-void residual urine volume, prostate size, and other 
health-related outcomes. On average, participants in both the saw 
palmetto and the placebo groups improved over the one-year duration of 
the trial, but there were no significant differences in the rates of 
improvement overall between the two groups as measured by the AUASI.




re: st john's wort for depression

http://nccam.nih.gov/news/2002/stjohnswort/q-and-a.htm


The trial found no statistically significant difference between St. 
John's wort and placebo on improvement in HAM-D scores or percentage 
of complete responses. The percentage of participants in remission 
from major depression at the end of the 8-week initial treatment phase 
was approximately 24 percent for St. John's wort and about 32 percent 
for placebo. Overall, the percentage of participants who improved 
either partially or completely was about 38 percent for St. John's 
wort and 43 percent for placebo. These findings suggest that St. 
John's wort is not effective for the treatment of major depression in 
adults with a moderate level of symptoms. This conclusion is supported 
by another recently reported placebo-controlled study (Shelton, et 
al., 2001).




Herbs are actually foods.
>   It is only confusing because our modern day society has put herbs into 
> capsules.  Originally herbs were only eaten just as we eat vegetables. Herbs 
> do work but people have to be patient and they have to know about the whole 
> part of healing;
  such as eliminating junk foods, exercise, stress
> elimination, promoting a strong immune system, etc.


the problem now is you are introducing way to many variables. was it 
the herb or the exercise or the stress elimination or what?  Should'nt 
you be able to show an effect in isolation?


  When one does a placebo controlled study, you should have equal amts 
of the aforementioned variables in both groups so they cancel out.

> I believe it was Hippocrites who wrote:  Let food be your medicine
> 
hippocrites didn't know about aspirin ;->


> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
>> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:18:35 -0500
>>
>> Howdy Joe, Mike, et al
>>
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>> Hi Mike;
>>>
>>> There is a part of me ( the part I like to think is wise) that tends to
>>> trust what comes out of mother nature's laboratory much more than the
>>> industrial product. This is why I use butter not margarine.
>> better the devil you know than the devil you don't know? (butter,
>> saturated fat and cholesterol vs margarine, trans fats)
>>
>> This is why
>>> I prefer herbs over medicines
>> most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more
>> predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to
>> accumulate statistically relevant data.   The problems with herbs as I
>> see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and
>> secondly, dosage is unclear.  Amounts of efficacious agents varies
>>from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how
>> it is grown.
>>
>>
>>
>>   and organic foods over factory.
>>
>> agreed, with the exception of "factory Organic"

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> I was told the problem with synthetics is isomers.
> The natural chemical is the correct molecule. Synthetic has a 50-50 
> racemic mix half good and half bogus biologically.

in some instances yes, in others no. Regardless, it is not an 
insurmountable one.  Either start with a chiral substrate in a 
synthesis, thus insuring only the proper stereoisomer, or perform what 
is called an "optical resolution" to separate the isomers at the end.



  The herb is pure. The
> synthetic is 50% an unnatural molecule.

only if you chose, which is done when the chirality of the molecule 
matters and sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.


>  
> Kirk
> 
> */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> bob allen wrote:
> 
> snip
>>   most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more 
>>   predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to   accumulate 
>> statistically relevant data.   The problems with herbs as I   see it is two 
>> fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and   secondly, dosage 
>> is unclear.  Amounts of efficacious agents varies   from species to species 
>> and even
>>  plant to plant depending on where/how   it is grown.  
> Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single
> substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect.
> Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow
> the money eh?)  There are two problems here. First in the synthesis
> process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the
> chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts
> to eliminate them.  Second and perhaps more important is what is
> left out.  It is a bold and arrogant assumption that the theraputic
> effect of a herb is due soley to an isolated compound.  Plants
> contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when
> the whole plant is consumed.  Yes this is less scientific in the
> strict sense but I am not married to science because I find that it
> cuts me off from a whole realm of truth which lies just outside of
> the bounds of wehat science can explain. Science does not have all
> the answersyet.
> 
>>   as far as I am aware there is no such thing as unnatural salt.
> 
> Well yeah salt is an inorganic compound and as such it just is what
> it is.  Or is it?  Where was it precipitated and in the presence of
> what else which will come out in the precipitate?  As you know,
> chemicals are never pure.  It is these traces I am curious about.  (
> And I haven't done my homework here so I'm open for blasting about
> that...granted) What else is in table salt vs sea salt and how
> much?  These are the questions that are of interest to me in this
> discussion, of course all salt is natural, so is feldspar, and so
> are gamma rays for that matter and water is a deadly asphyxiant one
> could say, also natural.  Refined sugar is pure right?  But what is
> it bleached with and what does that do to it, and what of the stuff
> which is removed? White flour sure looks nice and works great for
> pie crusts but how much of the nutrition of the grain remains in it
> after refining? And again what does the bleaching do? White rice vs
> brown rice, nutrition, ditto. This is the line of thinking I am
> applying to the question of sea salt vs refined salt, not whether 
> NaCl is natural or not. Perhaps there are cases where it is naive to
> just trust what nature has provided for us and it is more harmful
> than the carefully controlled laboratory product and maybe there are
> traces of toxic heavy metals in sea salt that can accumulate and do
> you in.  I don't know because I haven't checked but I guess it's
> time that I did!  I still feel safe though with the generality which
> Darryl recently posted about his cynicism and the rule of thumb
> which is " follow the money"  and what that means in terms of our
> food supply and what people will do or what they are willing to
> overlook in the name of profit.
> 
> Joe
> 
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