Re: [Tagging] Proposed tag shop=wholesale
A lot of Costco's customers are small businesses who buy wholesale 25 years ago this was their business model. (Price club). 15 years ago this was still true. This is not true any more. They still have business accounts (my friend has one), but I’ll bet you % of customers and % items bought and % of money spent at costco goes *at least* 80-20 end-consumers vs resellers. My guess is it is probably closer to 90-10. This seems to be true in the US and Japan. the amount of moms with kids and elderly people wandering around shopping for ice cream and batteries are not resellers. Anyone buying tires, glasses, clothes, books, movies, computer electronics, toothbrushes, or frozen food is also not a reseller (no reseller selling TVs is buying a single TV every few months). The parking lot is completely full of families. Besides certain bulk food supply aimed at restaurants (60 eggs) or is easily resellable in small amounts (canned drinks), all the stocked items are now completely targeted at consumers. Anything with a Kirkland logo is meant for end-consumers, otherwise there was no reason to create the KS line of products. All of their secondary services - glasses, food court, pharmacy, tire center, photo Prints, and other stuff through third parties (garage doors, cars, tax prep, etc) is all for consumers as well - so that should *really* tell you who is walking through costco’s doors. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Also, it would break all current data consumers. I think the concern about data consumers in general is far higher on this tagging list, then among actual data consumers. For example: Any decent data consumer needs to process *both*: *phone=XXX +* *contact:phone=XXX* Else they're missing 100,000 data points. So even if *phone* was mechanically retagged to* contact:phone* (or the other way around) data consumers would* not even notice.* It's the 18 pages of tag soup from http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/search?q=phone that hides phone numbers from data consumers, not a potential well discussed and documented improvement to the tagging architecture. In fact worst case is not all that bad with a mechanical retag process: if a data consumer breaks, it's because they're years out of date on following evolving tag preference. The access tags, and contact tags are both large tag spaces created before namespaces. If invented today, they'd problably use namespaces. There are strong advantages for data processing, to have them groupable. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
In Australia as well they are advisory so are therefore not speed limits. You can not be fined for exceeding the advisory signs. The speed limit, and therefore maxspeed, is sign posted with a sign like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Australian_60kmh_speed_limit_sign.jpg So therefore using maxspeed for this is incorrect. The wiki states that maxspeed is the maximum legal speed http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed For example, close by where I live is section of road that has a speed limit of 100kph. Several of the corners on it are signposted with advisory signs, one as low as 60kph. In my car I can travel all of this road at 100kph without having to slow for the corners. However if I'm in my 4x4 I have to slow for the signposted corners as it can not be driven and at 100kph around them even though it is legal to do so. I'd suggest using something like: maxspeed=80 maxspeed:advisory=50 etc. For the urban/rural default limits, in Australia for residential areas unless signposted it's 50kph. May areas had been changed by John_Smith with the following: maxspeed=50 source:maxspeed=default residential limit in Australia Not sure of the exact wording for the source:maxspeed but it's the general idea. Cheers Ross On 11/05/15 09:41, Andrew MacKinnon wrote: How do you tag speed limits on curves and highway on/off ramps? At least in Ontario, these speed limits are advisory only and signed with a yellow sign (and sometimes on curves you will see a curve speed limit sign and a higher general speed limit sign right beside each other). I have used ramp_speed and curve_speed for this and taginfo suggests that maxspeed:advised, maxspeed:advisory, recommended_speed might be ways to tag this. See http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/nGxJnKpP2dootXNmp2eV_g for a typical example of a ramp speed limit in Ottawa, Ontario (this one is 60km/h). Also how do you tag maxspeed which is unsigned? In Ontario the default speed limit is 50km/h in urban areas and 80km/h in rural areas when not signed. However, there have been proposals to lower the lower speed limit from 50km/h to 40km/h. I have been using maxspeed=national for this, is there a better way to tag this? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
2015-05-11 8:53 GMT+02:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: I’m not about to add a aeroway=helipad to the field because it could be used for emergency evacuations. In Poland we use emergency=landing_site for this. Check Overpass Turbo rendering of occurrences - they are located mainly on football pitches or similar places. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/emergency=landing_site -- *Paweł Marynowski* Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska http://osm.org.pl/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - admin_title=*
On 10.05.2015 22:48, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: Then there should be an effort to standardize the possible values of designation=* when applied to administrative entities. I think your current proposal is a good time to discuss that. The resulting standardized tags would need to be included in the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:designation page, making that page even more confusing than it already is. Do you have any proof that application developers will not implement it, other than just personal conjecture? That's my experience with OSM for 5 years, and with IT for 25 years. Routing developers have not implemented the tables given on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Maxspeed and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions for years even though some of them they get payed. They also did not implement routing over areas although it is a trivial task. The most important application to incorporate the designation=* or admin_title=* key would be Carto, because that's what people get to see when they try out OSM or when an OSM map is included within another site. Carto is optimized for speed. Changes in data are immediately queued to be rendered. There is no preprocessing. I know of no wiki table ever implemented in carto. That would require continuously keeping the implementation up to date. Who is supposed to do that? Only a few people have a commit privilegue. And those are reluctant to do anything. I made lots of comments and suggestions in their bug tracking systems, both old and new, and none of my suggestions was ever implemented. When I asked them for their criteria what features to render, they did not give me an answer. How do you think you get them implement a conversion table and keep it up to date? I bet you will not even try. And as I said before, such automatic replacement, if wrong, is not a catastrophic problem. Maybe not catastrophic, but it is wrong, and I will not write a proposal for something of which we already know beforehand that it is wrong. If a tag such as designation=* when applied to administrative entities were to be widely and consistently applied, and the documentation on the wiki is clear, then developers will find value in supporting such tables. According to Andy Allen (Gravitystorm), who seems to be the owner of Carto, this is absolutely not how we decide what things to render. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
That reeks of tagging for the renderer. Surely there is a landuse=grass (or natural=meadow or scrub) + some sort of helipad tag that could be used for this. The grass or meadow or scrub by itself should (correctly) be rendered, and a private tag aeroway=rough_helipad or emergency_helipad or something could document it’s potential helipad use. leisure=common implies (to me) it’s purpose for sports/grass related activities, not helicopter/helipad related activities. If you want to map the clearings (cared for grass or wild meadow or scrub) then do so and add your tag. The sports pitch in the middle of our local school sports stadium is also the staging grounds for wildfire fighting helicopters. I’m not about to add a aeroway=helipad to the field because it could be used for emergency evacuations. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed tag shop=wholesale
On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com wrote: A lot of Costco's customers are small businesses who buy wholesale from Costco and then resell at higher prices, but many individuals shop as well. So shop=wholesale is probably reasonable. Is the consensus that Costco and Sam's Club, etc. should just be tagged shop=supermarket and some other tag (like membership=yes)? shop=supermarket and membership=yes is more accurate than shop=wholesale for a business like Costco and Sams. Only true wholesalers should be tagged as such. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On Mon, 11 May 2015 00:27:55 -0700 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: I think the concern about data consumers in general is far higher on this tagging list, then among actual data consumers. For example: Any decent data consumer needs to process *both*: *phone=XXX +* *contact:phone=XXX* Else they're missing 100,000 data points. So even if *phone* was mechanically retagged to* contact:phone* (or the other way around) data consumers would* not even notice.* For phone data it may be true, but for access tags (note the thread title) it is certainly not true - it is unlikely that anybody supports for example access:foot. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: For phone data it may be true, but for access tags (note the thread title) it is certainly not true - it is unlikely that anybody supports for example access:foot. I think the point is that transition of tagging practice, even if it takes a few years, is possible. foot=yes is widely processed as an access tag, for sure. dog=, stroller= and fishing_boat= however are far less likely to be recognized as access tags even if used correctly. If access: started off with the odd cases, it could build momentum, to the point where the transition could be seamless. Contact and access are huge tag spaces that contain members that are semantically fuzzy. Data consumers tend to ignore tags with too much uncertainty. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: foot=yes is widely processed as an access tag, for sure. dog=, stroller= and fishing_boat= however are far less likely to be recognized as access tags even if used correctly. If access: started off with the odd cases, it could build momentum, to the point where the transition could be seamless. That would be confusing IMHO. Either you have to bite the sour apple and go (at least propose) for a complete move of access tags to their own name space or just leave everything as it is now. regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
Hi, On 05/11/15 06:04, Andreas Goss wrote: Look for a clear area in the village away from houses and hills. Shift to Opencyclemap layer to evaluate if this area is flat enough, with a minimum width of 30 meter. The Scale bar can help to evaluate the distances. The image above help also to evaluate what should look like such area. If there is no flat area, do not trace a polygon leisure=common. Trace a polygon tag leisure=common http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1023#task/2 This is certainly a very bad idea, and whoever came up with that should be politely asked to take on non-OpenStreetMap-related duties within HOT instead of coming up with ideas that pollutes OSM with questionable data. leisure=common can very well be hilly, or in the vicinity of houses, or smaller than 30 metres; the tag should not be redefined for areas of HOT activity to mean a helicopter can land here. By all means, define a tag hot:potential_helicopter_landing_site=yes or whatever. That's what our tagging freedom is for... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: for a trail that anyone can use, but only after buying a permit. I would use rather fee=yes and toll=yes rather than introducing yet another tag value. That would confuse the heck out of me. From that tagging I'd think you're talking about staffed toll both or coin box. I'd rather do: access=see_website operator=East Bay Municipal Utility District website= https://www.ebmud.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Application%20for%20Trail%20Permit.pdf note=Annual trail use permit must be obtained in advance. I'd rather have a lot of tags with clear meanings, compared to just a few tags that are semantically murky! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
On 2015-05-10 15:33, Volker Schmidt wrote : We do have here roads where access with motor vehicles is limited to residents plus residents of the town, where the road is. Example: http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/H5QZAcvCLQBwhbF4u2mq7w (zoom in to read the details) How do I tag such situation? Same (as we) in Belgium. Specifically (as exception to access restrictions): Excepté circulation locale (must stop within with a reason to go) Exceptés riverains (local residents (no river needed ;-) )) Cheers André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
In Italy we've been using something like maxspeed=50; source:maxspeed=IT:urban maxspeed=90; source:maxspeed=IT:rural +1 in France: maxspeed=50; source:maxspeed=FR:urban maxspeed=90; source:maxspeed=FR:rural maxspeed=130; source:maxspeed=FR:motorway maxspeed=30; source:maxspeed=FR:zone30 maxspeed=20; source:maxspeed=FR:living_street Although for the last two, speed limit is included in the corresponding traffic sign design. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed Eric ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
Forwarding to HOT activation working group. Activation WG, Please see an ongoing discussion about tagging:leisure=common for potential helicopter landings Tagging group, Tentative answers inline. Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Look for a clear area in the village away from houses and hills. Shift to Opencyclemap layer to evaluate if this area is flat enough, with a minimum width of 30 meter. The Scale bar can help to evaluate the distances. The image above help also to evaluate what should look like such area. If there is no flat area, do not trace a polygon leisure=common. Trace a polygon tag leisure=common http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1023#task/2 Can anybody explain to me why we use one of the most unlcear tags for this? Is this just tagging for the render or why is it so complicated to come up with a more fitting tag? As far as I understand, the explanation (not an approval): It started as tagging for the end-users because GIS people and pilots were looking for leisure=common for unofficial landing sites in some places such as West Africa. Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: This is certainly a very bad idea [SNIP] We will politely ask and try to improve on it. Please consider being extra nice and somehow patient because HOT members are in the biggest activation ever and under heavy pressure right now. leisure=common can very well be hilly, or in the vicinity of houses, or smaller than 30 metres; the tag should not be redefined for areas of HOT activity to mean a helicopter can land here. By all means, define a tag hot:potential_helicopter_landing_site=yes or whatever. That's what our tagging freedom is for... johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: The sports pitch in the middle of our local school sports stadium is also the staging grounds for wildfire fighting helicopters. I’m not about to add a aeroway=helipad to the field because it could be used for emergency evacuations. I would say that is precisely what happened for using leisure=common and not adding aeroway=helipad. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
On Monday 11 May 2015, althio wrote: Can anybody explain to me why we use one of the most unlcear tags for this? Is this just tagging for the render or why is it so complicated to come up with a more fitting tag? As far as I understand, the explanation (not an approval): It started as tagging for the end-users because GIS people and pilots were looking for leisure=common for unofficial landing sites in some places such as West Africa. And that by the way is the very definition of cargo cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science) -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
2015-05-11 11:25 GMT+02:00 p...@trigpoint.me.uk: s'. I know the literal translation is residents, but a delivery driver or a friend visiting would be allowed to drive there. I would use access = destination in these cases. in Italy there are cases where destination doesn't hit it, because you are only exempted from the restriction if you have applied for a resident's permit (typically including the payment of an annual fee), there might be exceptions for delivery, but not for friends or family (the permit is for the car / number plate, not the people). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
On 11 May 2015 at 11:40, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 4:04 AM, James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com wrote: Well, in the US, I've just been tagging the 'ramp' speeds ( https://goo.gl/maps/Bw8Is ) as a normal 'maxspeed'. I know several other users here in the US have been doing it the same way. Please don't, as this is confusing. Advisory speeds are not limits, maxspeed=* is the limit, not the advisory. Maxspeed does not imply 'limit' by name. Perhaps we should have maxspeed:advisory=* and maxspeed:limit=* and continue maxspeed:hgv=* etc ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
2015-05-11 9:27 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: It's the 18 pages of tag soup from http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/search?q=phone that hides phone numbers from data consumers, not a potential well discussed and documented improvement to the tagging architecture. actually if you have a look at this list (here the most used values): 494 060 *phone* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/phone 99 706 contact:*phone* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/contact%3Aphone 10 592 payment:tele*phone*_cards http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/payment%3Atelephone_cards 10 045 openGeoDB:tele*phone*_area_code http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/openGeoDB%3Atelephone_area_code 8 093 communication:mobile_*phone* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/communication%3Amobile_phone 1 648 emergency_tele*phone*_code http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/emergency_telephone_code 1 079 tele*phone* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/telephone These are not actually telephone numbers (besides the first 2) but mostly other telephone related attributes (have a look at the values, e.g. here: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/telephone#values ) with a few exceptions (low usage). What come after these on the following 16 pages are tags with very few usage (all below 1000) and will be fixed sooner or later or is not about a phone number. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
2015-05-11 11:04 GMT+02:00 James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com: Plus, while the cops can't pull you over and give you a ticket for exceeding the 'ramp' speed (if they do, you can challenge it in court if it's just a normal speeding ticket), they can however, nail you with a reckless driving ticket/charge if you wipe out and wreck while exceeding it. I believe the situation in Germany is similar, e.g. if there is a 130 km/h maxspeed recommendation (which is there implicitly on the whole network) but you drive at 250 km/h and someone else gets frightened and makes an accident the fault might be attributed to you. I recall several cases where test drivers of Mercedes caused deadly accidents on the highways around the main production plant (A8, A81, A5), there is even a wikipedia article in English about one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_on_the_Bundesautobahn_5 Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
On Mon May 11 10:03:48 2015 GMT+0100, André Pirard wrote: On 2015-05-10 15:33, Volker Schmidt wrote : We do have here roads where access with motor vehicles is limited to residents plus residents of the town, where the road is. Example: http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/H5QZAcvCLQBwhbF4u2mq7w (zoom in to read the details) How do I tag such situation? Same (as we) in Belgium. Specifically (as exception to access restrictions): Excepté circulation locale (must stop within with a reason to go) Exceptés riverains (local residents (no river needed ;-) )) I have always read that as the equivalent to the UK 'except for access'. I know the literal translation is residents, but a delivery driver or a friend visiting would be allowed to drive there. I would use access = destination in these cases. Phil ( trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
There are a number of reasons we shouldn't tag random places as potential emergency helipads: - Ground conditions - overhead obstructions - don't think we're qualified to make assessment (without site visit and heli knowledge) - A heli pilot wouldn't use our info - he'd always make his own assessment on the day - so little point in having 'data'. - etc. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
On 05/11/2015 09:42 AM, Paweł Marynowski wrote: 2015-05-11 8:53 GMT+02:00 johnw jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com: I’m not about to add a aeroway=helipad to the field because it could be used for emergency evacuations. In Poland we use emergency=landing_site for this. Check Overpass Turbo rendering of occurrences - they are located mainly on football pitches or similar places. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/emergency=landing_site In an emergency, the helicopter pilot will use any football pitch he fancies... Being an emergency helo pad is implicit to the soccer pitch's nature - so why the extra tag ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On 2015-05-11 09:27, Bryce Nesbitt wrote : On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Also, it would break all current data consumers. I think the concern about data consumers in general is far higher on this tagging list, then among actual data consumers. For example: Any decent data consumer needs to process both: phone=XXX + contact:phone=XXX Else they're missing 100,000 data points. So even if phone was mechanically retagged to contact:phone (or the other way around) data consumers would not even notice. The problem is that if you don't find a phone number you may miss a phone call but that if you use wrong access or routing tags you will instantly have GPSes send cars, bikes or pedestrian on the wrong road. It's really difficult to have it understood that GPS software blindly obeys rules and that tags must also strictly obey the same rules for the GPSes to work. The many many routing tags errors are a real PITA. Even wrong instructions in the documentation causing contributors to be misinformed. Is OSM suitable for GPS Cheers André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 1:42 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: It's really difficult to have it understood that GPS software blindly obeys rules and that tags must also strictly obey the same rules for the GPSes to work. The many many routing tags errors are a real PITA. Even wrong instructions in the documentation causing contributors to be misinformed. Is OSM suitable for GPS That remains to be seen. But it's an advantage for the more verbose tags. hgv=designated is not all that clear to a starting mapper. access:hgv=designated at least gives a hint to those who read English. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? Cheers, Martin For reference see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confectionery http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dconfectionery ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
Well, in the US, I've just been tagging the 'ramp' speeds ( https://goo.gl/maps/Bw8Is ) as a normal 'maxspeed'. I know several other users here in the US have been doing it the same way. However, I wouldn't be opposed if we wanted to tag them as 'maxspeed:ramp=35 mph', but only if we could get the routers on board as that does help in the time estimates and also to harp a user if he's going, say, 20 mph over the 'ramp' speed. Plus, while the cops can't pull you over and give you a ticket for exceeding the 'ramp' speed (if they do, you can challenge it in court if it's just a normal speeding ticket), they can however, nail you with a reckless driving ticket/charge if you wipe out and wreck while exceeding it. That's why I said we need to get the routers on board if we add a new tag for the ramps where these signs are posted so they can continue to alert drivers who go over the ramp speed (if that option is turned on). -James ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
On 5/11/15 09:42 , Paweł Marynowski wrote: In Poland we use emergency=landing_site for this. Check Overpass Turbo rendering of occurrences - they are located mainly on football pitches or similar places. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/emergency=landing_site Can you please document tags when you import that many... I created a page in the Wiki. Guess we have to have some clear rules where to use this and where helipad. Also maybe have landing_site=helicopter or something in addition. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlanding_site __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
2015-05-11 0:22 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: I'd say the simple answer is access=private. Anyone who has access knows they have access, and don't need OSM to tell them. private might be a good value for cases where you do need a written permission, IMHO this residents should be looked at more precisely: do you have to apply for a permission or do you simply have to live there? Is it OK to take this road if you are visiting someone or delivering something to someone living there? The latter 2 would better expressed with destination. access as a key is in any case too generic, I'd make this motorcar (at least in Germany, not 100% sure for Italy) because motorbikes, mofas, bicycles, pedestrians etc. do not seem to be covered by the restriction. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
On May 11, 2015, at 6:02 PM, althio althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote: johnw jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com wrote: The sports pitch in the middle of our local school sports stadium is also the staging grounds for wildfire fighting helicopters. I’m not about to add a aeroway=helipad to the field because it could be used for emergency evacuations. I would say that is precisely what happened for using leisure=common and not adding aeroway=helipad. i think what we’re trying to say is that (me being a bit of a noob) addeding leisure=common to places then searching for leisure=common to find landing sites is not good. tag the area as what it is (a meadow, a farm filed, a soccer pitch, etc) and then put a special tag you make up on it: emergency=landing_site is interesting, but make up what description meets your needs (areoway=improvised_landing_site, etc) to find spots, search for the tag you made up rather than searching for leisure=common if you are just tagging leisure=common to get a rendering in OSM carto that shows up on whatever map system you’re using (printed, onscreen, etc), then that isn’t good either, because a sports pitch or a meadow isn’t really a common, and tagging them as grass or a soccer pitch doesn’t have the same access privileges implied that leisure=common gives them. your choice of landing site tags should be tagged uniquely with your tags, not by tagging everything as leisure=common. I think that is what we’re trying to say, I think. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - admin_title=*
On Mon, 11 May 2015 08:44:25 +0200 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: If a tag such as designation=* when applied to administrative entities were to be widely and consistently applied, and the documentation on the wiki is clear, then developers will find value in supporting such tables. According to Andy Allen (Gravitystorm), who seems to be the owner of Carto, this is absolutely not how we decide what things to render. Please, avoid quoting out of context. It was response to is used 9461 times, it is approved, and it has its wiki page, thus it should be rendered (source: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/545 ) Many tags are widely used, have wiki page and will never be rendered in openstreetmap-carto - and any amount of approvals will not change it (source tag is an obvious example). Only a few people have a commit privilegue. And those are reluctant to do anything. I made lots of comments and suggestions in their bug tracking systems, both old and new, and none of my suggestions was ever implemented. Note that there are over 300 open issues. Reporting problems and discussion is useful, but it is not something that may be committed. It can be done only once somebody writes code - and it may be done by anyone, commit rights are not necessary to submit a pull request. About 40 pull requests were processed within last month, with 17 currently waiting. Within last 50 closed pull requests 36 were merged, 11 were rejected, 2 were replaced by an improved version and 1 pull request was a test, not intended as mergeable. About are reluctant to do anything - see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commits/master ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
On Mon, 11 May 2015 11:02:38 +0200 althio althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote: Forwarding to HOT activation working group. Activation WG, Please see an ongoing discussion about tagging:leisure=common for potential helicopter landings Note also that using leisure=common for places that are potential helicopter landings has additional problem - this tag may be correctly used to tag place utterly unusable for that purpose. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
At some point you throw up your hands and ask what does it say on the sign? access:motorcar=see_note barrier=sign sign:text=Requires campus NL permit with toll tag transponder. Delivery excepted. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
UK Max speed advisory signs: Sign http://roadsignsdirect.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/width220/public/513.2_0.png?itok=4-8s-qxC With additional info http://www.1stdrive.com/Advisory_speed_sign.JPG Variable http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/Uk_40_mph_advisory.jpg -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com wrote: How do you tag speed limits on curves and highway on/off ramps? At least in Ontario, these speed limits are advisory only and signed with a yellow sign (and sometimes on curves you will see a curve speed limit sign and a higher general speed limit sign right beside each other). These would be advisory speeds, not speed limits. Also how do you tag maxspeed which is unsigned? In Ontario the default speed limit is 50km/h in urban areas and 80km/h in rural areas when not signed. However, there have been proposals to lower the lower speed limit from 50km/h to 40km/h. I have been using maxspeed=national for this, is there a better way to tag this? I usually maxspeed an explicit value with maxspeed:note indicating what's going on. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:52 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote That would be confusing IMHO. Either you have to bite the sour apple and go (at least propose) for a complete move of access tags to their own name space or just leave everything as it is now. The transition to a namespace is already underway http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/access%3Ahorse http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/access%3Abus The question then becomes: is there energy to hurry that process along, try and stop that process, or clean up the ones that don't fit like: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/access%3Aroof http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/access%3Acustomer ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
2015-05-11 1:41 GMT+02:00 Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com: How do you tag speed limits on curves and highway on/off ramps? At least in Ontario, these speed limits are advisory only and signed with a yellow sign (and sometimes on curves you will see a curve speed limit sign and a higher general speed limit sign right beside each other). I have used ramp_speed and curve_speed for this and taginfo suggests that maxspeed:advised, maxspeed:advisory, recommended_speed might be ways to tag this. See http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/nGxJnKpP2dootXNmp2eV_g for a typical example of a ramp speed limit in Ottawa, Ontario (this one is 60km/h). I agree with Ross, that a new tag should be used. The sign you talk about is not related to maxspeed. Here in Italy, for example, this is achieved through square signs with a blue background, which qualifies them as information signs. Instead, max speed is indicated by round signs with a white background and a red border, which means they are prescription signs. Also how do you tag maxspeed which is unsigned? In Ontario the default speed limit is 50km/h in urban areas and 80km/h in rural areas when not signed. However, there have been proposals to lower the lower speed limit from 50km/h to 40km/h. I have been using maxspeed=national for this, is there a better way to tag this? In Italy we've been using something like maxspeed=50; source:maxspeed=IT:urban maxspeed=90; source:maxspeed=IT:rural Ciao, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 2:04 AM, James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com wrote: However, I wouldn't be opposed if we wanted to tag them as 'maxspeed:ramp=35 mph', but only if we could get the routers on board as that does help in the time estimates and also to harp a user if he's going, say, 20 mph over the 'ramp' speed. It's broader than ramp. It's any yellow advisory speed limit, that should have a new tag. USA: white=regulatory yellow=advisory There are many examples of each, not just speed limits. All signs in the USA must conform to the http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
I believe the solution for the problem has already been mentioned: the used tag maxspeed:advisory=* seems a good way to make the distinction between actual maxspeeds and advisory maxspeeds: http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/maxspeed%3Aadvisory#values Let's document this in the wiki, e.g. here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?action=edittitle=Key:maxspeed%3Aadvisory I have added a paragraph here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Speed_limitsoldid=1176298 Feel free to modify / correct / amend it. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 4:04 AM, James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com wrote: Well, in the US, I've just been tagging the 'ramp' speeds ( https://goo.gl/maps/Bw8Is ) as a normal 'maxspeed'. I know several other users here in the US have been doing it the same way. Please don't, as this is confusing. Advisory speeds are not limits, maxspeed=* is the limit, not the advisory. However, I wouldn't be opposed if we wanted to tag them as 'maxspeed:ramp=35 mph', but only if we could get the routers on board as that does help in the time estimates and also to harp a user if he's going, say, 20 mph over the 'ramp' speed. Plus, while the cops can't pull you over and give you a ticket for exceeding the 'ramp' speed (if they do, you can challenge it in court if it's just a normal speeding ticket), they can however, nail you with a reckless driving ticket/charge if you wipe out and wreck while exceeding it. That's why I said we need to get the routers on board if we add a new tag for the ramps where these signs are posted so they can continue to alert drivers who go over the ramp speed (if that option is turned on). Also handy for consumers like Osmand that might use this information to display a warning if you're coming up on something fast, similar to how it'll alert on stop signs audibly if it doesn't detect you're starting to slow down. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed tag shop=wholesale
shop=supermarket and membership=yes is more accurate than shop=wholesale for a business like Costco and Sams. Only true wholesalers should be tagged as such. +1 Agree. Costco is not a wholesale shop because they sell to any consumer who is willing to buy a membership. And they sell many items in quantities of one. On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 2:40 AM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: A lot of Costco's customers are small businesses who buy wholesale 25 years ago this was their business model. (Price club). 15 years ago this was still true. This is not true any more. They still have business accounts (my friend has one), but I’ll bet you % of customers and % items bought and % of money spent at costco goes *at least* 80-20 end-consumers vs resellers. My guess is it is probably closer to 90-10. This seems to be true in the US and Japan. the amount of moms with kids and elderly people wandering around shopping for ice cream and batteries are not resellers. Anyone buying tires, glasses, clothes, books, movies, computer electronics, toothbrushes, or frozen food is also not a reseller (no reseller selling TVs is buying a single TV every few months). The parking lot is completely full of families. Besides certain bulk food supply aimed at restaurants (60 eggs) or is easily resellable in small amounts (canned drinks), all the stocked items are now completely targeted at consumers. Anything with a Kirkland logo is meant for end-consumers, otherwise there was no reason to create the KS line of products. All of their secondary services - glasses, food court, pharmacy, tire center, photo Prints, and other stuff through third parties (garage doors, cars, tax prep, etc) is all for consumers as well - so that should *really* tell you who is walking through costco’s doors. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles - surface=pebblestone ?
On 10 May 2015 at 15:34, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: pebblestones is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or mortar (?) and is typically seen in old cities. Example: http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q In British English, those are cobbles or cobblestinoes: Those are pebbles - or pebblestone Cobbles are rounded and difficult to walk on http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/coronation-street-new-set-health-hazard-stars-keep-tripping-new-cobbles/ esp. when wet Then there's setts http://www.dcrainmaker.com/images/2013/01/IMG_9827.jpg - squarer blocks -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
Well if you read the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed that's exactly what maxspeed implies. and maxspeed:hgv etc is also there Cheers Ross On 11/05/15 21:08, pmailkeey . wrote: On 11 May 2015 at 11:40, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org mailto:ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 4:04 AM, James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com mailto:rickmastfa...@hotmail.com wrote: Well, in the US, I've just been tagging the 'ramp' speeds ( https://goo.gl/maps/Bw8Is ) as a normal 'maxspeed'. I know several other users here in the US have been doing it the same way. Please don't, as this is confusing. Advisory speeds are not limits, maxspeed=* is the limit, not the advisory. Maxspeed does not imply 'limit' by name. Perhaps we should have maxspeed:advisory=* and maxspeed:limit=* and continue maxspeed:hgv=* etc ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * * * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* * * TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles - surface=pebblestone ?
On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think it's the same. I am interpreting and using these two tags like this: *pebblestones* is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or mortar (?) and is typically seen in old cities. Example: http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q *pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in place of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and rounded. They are not set in any way. (example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/171367286 - no photo available) *pebbles* is also used as beach surface. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/189789251 That's my interpretation too - even before I read this :) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On 11/05/2015 09:42, André Pirard wrote: The problem is that if you don't find a phone number you may miss a phone call but that if you use wrong access or routing tags you will instantly have GPSes send cars, bikes or pedestrian on the wrong road. It's really difficult to have it understood that GPS software blindly obeys rules and that tags must also strictly obey the same rules for the GPSes to work. The many many routing tags errors are a real PITA. Even wrong instructions in the documentation causing contributors to be misinformed. Is OSM suitable for GPS Hell yes* :) Seriously, I presume that's a rhetorical question. I've been using OSM data in a car satnav (in the UK) for years, and when in someone else's car sometimes end up playing the BMW-vs-Google-vs-OSM-on-an-eTrex game, and (apart from postcodes, which is a different issue to access tags) OSM pretty much always wins. I suspect that that might not be the case in e.g. raw TIGER-infested areas of the US, but in the UK and in Australia I genuinely haven't had a problem. Cheers, Andy * Sorry, I've been been watching far too much general election coverage over the last few weeks. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)
On 11/05/2015 08:32, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: On Mon, 11 May 2015 00:27:55 -0700 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: I think the concern about data consumers in general is far higher on this tagging list, then among actual data consumers. Agreed. For phone data it may be true, but for access tags (note the thread title) it is certainly not true - it is unlikely that anybody supports for example access:foot For my own use I've been doing it for a while, ever since (some) people started using it: https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L351 You could argue that prefixing all access tags with access: might make it easier for mappers, but only if you simultaneously submit patches for iD, P2, JOSM, Vespucci, et al, _and_ get a general concensus that the existing accepted values should be mechanically edited. Good luck with that. Cheers, Andy PS: Not OSM or map related in any way, but sometimes very relevant to this list: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog18.html ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
2015-05-11 9:59 GMT+02:00 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: On 05/11/2015 09:42 AM, Paweł Marynowski wrote: 2015-05-11 8:53 GMT+02:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: I’m not about to add a aeroway=helipad to the field because it could be used for emergency evacuations. In Poland we use emergency=landing_site for this. Check Overpass Turbo rendering of occurrences - they are located mainly on football pitches or similar places. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/emergency=landing_site In an emergency, the helicopter pilot will use any football pitch he fancies... Being an emergency helo pad is implicit to the soccer pitch's nature - so why the extra tag ? In this case: because these places are officialy in use by Polish Medical Air Rescue (they have unique ID, etc.). @Andreas Goss: thanks for wiki entry! -- *Paweł Marynowski* Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska http://osm.org.pl/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35
Am 10.05.2015 um 15:29 schrieb Lists li...@gimnechiske.org: +1 for pebbles. Don’t create a ridiculous amount of surface values, for roads there are mainly 3 interesting values (paved/unpaved/setting stones), and for non-road usage it should be free to cover about any exposed surfaces, i.e. beaches can be sand/pebbles/rock, tennis courts can be clay/synthetic/asphalt (and other values?), a soccer field can be grass/synthetic/asphalt? glad you mention pebbles: I always wondered what were the right values for crushed rock (angular rock) in the size classes 5mm to 32mm/64mm, as both, gravel and pebbles seem to refer to naturally created, smooth, small pieces of stone (eg from rivers), while most streets I am aware of are made from crushed rock (at least around here). For reference, in German the terms are Bruchsand (5mm), Splitt (2-32mm) and Schotter (32-64mm) as opposed to pieces of natural provenience (German: Kies). I'm particularly interested in the term(s) for Splitt. (I guess it is chippings, but this is not a common value for surfaces in Osm (strangely just 5 occurrences)). cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
This is a group doing some kind of specialized mapping for their pilots. We' discussing the best way for them to tag things for their use. This is not a tag all the soccer pitches helicopters could land on discussion. Javbw On May 11, 2015, at 8:00 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: There are a number of reasons we shouldn't tag random places as potential emergency helipads: Ground conditions overhead obstructions don't think we're qualified to make assessment (without site visit and heli knowledge) A heli pilot wouldn't use our info - he'd always make his own assessment on the day - so little point in having 'data'. etc. -- Mike. @millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via the area's premier website - currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets TCs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
I would be more in favor of a+b) because you might want to tag a place with shop=pastry because 95% of their assortiment is pastry, but they have 5% candy so you add candy=yes. Janko pon, 11. svi 2015. 17:12 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com je napisao: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
There are Japanese non-baked confectioneries. (I believe similar confectioneries in other countries. esp. in Asia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi If we take only a) plan, I'm afraid of we could not represent cultural variations. +1 to Janko's a+b), and to express the specialty, moltonel's confectionery:FOO=yes confectionery:BAR=yes. 2015-05-12 0:24 GMT+09:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I would be more in favor of a+b) because you might want to tag a place with shop=pastry because 95% of their assortiment is pastry, but they have 5% candy so you add candy=yes. Janko pon, 11. svi 2015. 17:12 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com je napisao: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
My original question refers to the case of several roads where: (a) motor_vehicles=destination applies for everyone plus (b) residents of a specific village have full motor_vehicle access (indepenently of their destination) On 11 May 2015 at 11:43, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: At some point you throw up your hands and ask what does it say on the sign? access:motorcar=see_note barrier=sign sign:text=Requires campus NL permit with toll tag transponder. Delivery excepted. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35
I only now, after having lived for many years in the UK, I realise that the definition of gravel is wider than the equivalent of the German Splitt. I thought them equivalent. Looking it up in the English Wikipedia I found contradictory information. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel_road gravel is crushed stone and raoughly aequivalent to the German Splitt But in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel gravel is more generic and can, for example, also be pebbles of different sizes. On 11 May 2015 at 15:42, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 10.05.2015 um 15:29 schrieb Lists li...@gimnechiske.org: +1 for pebbles. Don’t create a ridiculous amount of surface values, for roads there are mainly 3 interesting values (paved/unpaved/setting stones), and for non-road usage it should be free to cover about any exposed surfaces, i.e. beaches can be sand/pebbles/rock, tennis courts can be clay/synthetic/asphalt (and other values?), a soccer field can be grass/synthetic/asphalt? glad you mention pebbles: I always wondered what were the right values for crushed rock (angular rock) in the size classes 5mm to 32mm/64mm, as both, gravel and pebbles seem to refer to naturally created, smooth, small pieces of stone (eg from rivers), while most streets I am aware of are made from crushed rock (at least around here). For reference, in German the terms are Bruchsand (5mm), Splitt (2-32mm) and Schotter (32-64mm) as opposed to pieces of natural provenience (German: Kies). I'm particularly interested in the term(s) for Splitt. (I guess it is chippings, but this is not a common value for surfaces in Osm (strangely just 5 occurrences)). cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
In the same way, there is a tradition of boiled cookies in the USA, that are on the borderline between cookies (biscuits, in British terminology) and candy. They involve a sticky, sweetened grain, most commonly oatmeal (rolled oats). Here is an example: http://dessert.food.com/recipe/no-bake-chocolate-oatmeal-cookies-23821 On May 11, 2015 10:47:43 AM CDT, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: There are Japanese non-baked confectioneries. (I believe similar confectioneries in other countries. esp. in Asia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi If we take only a) plan, I'm afraid of we could not represent cultural variations. +1 to Janko's a+b), and to express the specialty, moltonel's confectionery:FOO=yes confectionery:BAR=yes. 2015-05-12 0:24 GMT+09:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I would be more in favor of a+b) because you might want to tag a place with shop=pastry because 95% of their assortiment is pastry, but they have 5% candy so you add candy=yes. Janko pon, 11. svi 2015. 17:12 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com je napisao: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
Re: [Tagging] Tagging village sign
In the USA, such signs are more commonly at or near the edge of the community, so that you see what community you are entering, rather than at its center. Also, while some communities have a public square, not all do so. On May 8, 2015 4:50:37 AM CDT, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 May 2015 at 23:11, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Tips on tagging a village sign please. Village sign: an ornate sign located fairly central to the village - such as on the village green. There are lots of these signs near where I live. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_sign for examples. I've always used man_made=village_sign to tag them -- which seems to have a number of uses according to http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=village+sign#values (although a good proportional of them are probably down to me). The village name shown on the sign should also be recorded, and for that I've used name=*. I know that perhaps doesn't quite fit with the usual use of name=*, as here it's the name being shown, rather than the name of the sign, but I thought it was close enough. But if anyone has any better suggestions there... Robert. -- Robert Whittaker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles - surface=pebblestone ?
Speaking as an American, I would refer to that as a mix of cobbles and setts (some of the stones in the photo look rounded, some squared, and some irregular). They appear ti be about the size of a human palm. I think of pebbles as rocks of finger-diameter or less, such as the pea gravel often used on the surface of concrete driveways, for ornamental reasons. On May 11, 2015 6:46:10 AM CDT, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 15:34, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: pebblestones is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or mortar (?) and is typically seen in old cities. Example: http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q In British English, those are cobbles or cobblestinoes: Those are pebbles - or pebblestone Cobbles are rounded and difficult to walk on http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/coronation-street-new-set-health-hazard-stars-keep-tripping-new-cobbles/ esp. when wet Then there's setts http://www.dcrainmaker.com/images/2013/01/IMG_9827.jpg - squarer blocks -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] surface=brick - surface=bricks?
Neither is documented at wiki but meaning seems clear and synonymous. surface=bricks is used 1997 times, surface=brick 541 times. surface=bricks is also consistent with plural form of popular countable surface values - surface=paving_stones and surface=concrete:plates Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=brick to surface=bricks? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
This is definitely something that needs a site survey. On May 11, 2015 6:00:29 AM CDT, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: There are a number of reasons we shouldn't tag random places as potential emergency helipads: - Ground conditions - overhead obstructions - don't think we're qualified to make assessment (without site visit and heli knowledge) - A heli pilot wouldn't use our info - he'd always make his own assessment on the day - so little point in having 'data'. - etc. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 11/05/2015, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 11.05.2015 18:18, Andreas Goss napisał(a): Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? Yet another item just for sugar?... =} Blaspheme ! :p You shouldn't compare Haribo-type sweets which *are* mostly sugar with the deserts sold in a patisserie which can be relatively healthy (yes, you need to double-check with the boulangère). There's no sugar at all in the traditional croissant recipe, and the butter-less version is common. Come and visit some day, I'll bake you my no-sugar yes-beetroot brownie which is tastyer than the classic brownie :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On May 12, 2015, at 12:47 AM, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: There are Japanese non-baked confectioneries. (I believe similar confectioneries in other countries. esp. in Asia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi If we take only a) plan, I'm afraid of we could not represent cultural variations. +1 to Janko's a+b), and to express the specialty, moltonel's confectionery:FOO=yes confectionery:BAR=yes”. I guess there are Wagashi shops, but I never notice them. I usually see “desert bakeries” - little cakes and bigger cakes for sale (Mon Cherie?) and regular Japanese パンや “bread shops” selling curry-pan, melon-pan, and sliced bread and whatnot, and then “traditional sweets” shops, selling the little mint sticks, star candy, and other old style confectionaries. Aren’t the wagashi usually found at the “traditional” sweet shops? I have not seen a shop in Japan selling only modern candy (snickers bars, gummy snacks, etc) like you would find in a mall in America. my favorite dessert shop in japan is a big chain called “シャトレーゼ” Chateraise which is a cake bakery, Ice Cream Shop, and also sells cookies and their special wine via BYO bottle. http://www.chateraise.co.jp/products/itemcatelist.php If you want to segment up sweets, it might be a good idea to me more inclusive with other “prepared” desert items, like ice cream, ice cream cakes, and such - so confectionary would be part of a greater “desserts” category. シャトレーゼ: desserts:bakery_confections=yes desserts:cakes=yes desserts:sugar_confections=no desserts:gelatin=yes desserts:single_icecream=yes desserts:bulk_icecream=yes desserts:soft_serve=no desserts:shakes=no ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=brick - surface=bricks?
On 11 May 2015 at 21:40, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Neither is documented at wiki but meaning seems clear and synonymous. surface=bricks is used 1997 times, surface=brick 541 times. surface=bricks is also consistent with plural form of popular countable surface values - surface=paving_stones and surface=concrete:plates Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=brick to surface=bricks? 1. Is there any good reason for changing 'brick' to 'bricks' ? If that's what you're searching for, look for 'brick', it won't matter if there's ans on the end 2. 'Bricks' clearly describes bricks but does 'brick' describe 'brick-like' as in material [brick dust, (bricks dust)]. We are perhaps familiar with brick walls but not bricks wall - raising the question should the pluralising s be removed ? If it's not hurting anyone, leave it alone ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles - surface=pebblestone ?
On 11 May 2015 at 21:35, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Speaking as an American, I would refer to that as a mix of cobbles and setts (some of the stones in the photo look rounded, some squared, and some irregular). They appear ti be about the size of a human palm. I think of pebbles as rocks of finger-diameter or less, such as the pea gravel often used on the surface of concrete driveways, for ornamental reasons. Pebbles to me are 'rounded stones' (aka 'cornerless) of any size as found washed up on a beach having been ground by rubbing against each other with tidal action. What you describe, I think we'd call 'shingle'. There ought to be an American translation of the wiki and osm interfaces. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=brick - surface=bricks?
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Neither is documented at wiki but meaning seems clear and synonymous. surface=bricks is used 1997 times, surface=brick 541 times. surface=bricks is also consistent with plural form of popular countable surface values - surface=paving_stones and surface=concrete:plates Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=brick to surface=bricks? In American English the term brick wall sounds fine. Bricks wall is odd. If you asked what's the bike shed made of? either bricks or brick would be fine answers. I think that data consumers should accept both, and thus it does not matter how people tag it. Describe both on the wiki as redirects to the same place. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 11/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? To me it is, but deserts are very tied to the local culture, so I'm sure opinions will differ. http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/de/f0/35/el-tawhid-pastry.jpg http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/28/25/df/patisserie-richard.jpg Because the first image is what every bakery in Germany usually sells, too. But the 2nd one while you can often find some limited selection at bakeries, is what we usually buy at a Konditorei which has a much larger selecter with higher quality and looks like this: http://www.reschinsky.com/online/media/Torten_2.jpg A french patisserie will sell both kinds. A boulangerie will almost always also sell croisants (the first kind) even if it sells no other sweet stuff. For what it's worth, the first kind is generally refered to vienoiseries in France (where I come from) and danish pastry in Ireland (where I live). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=brick - surface=bricks?
On Mon, 11 May 2015 23:42:00 +0100 pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 11 May 2015 at 21:40, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=brick to surface=bricks? 1. Is there any good reason for changing 'brick' to 'bricks' ? Yes - surface key has many, many values. There is also plenty of quite popular values and merging ones that are indistinguishable from each other makes easier to process this data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=brick - surface=bricks?
Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=brick to surface=bricks? Yes. In English, brick can be an adjective as well as a noun. As an adjective, as it is here, it should have no s. On 12 May 2015 at 05:40, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Neither is documented at wiki but meaning seems clear and synonymous. surface=bricks is used 1997 times, surface=brick 541 times. surface=bricks is also consistent with plural form of popular countable surface values - surface=paving_stones and surface=concrete:plates Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=brick to surface=bricks? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a meal. Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no vegetation. On May 11, 2015 6:17:08 PM CDT, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? To me it is, but deserts are very tied to the local culture, so I'm sure opinions will differ. http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/de/f0/35/el-tawhid-pastry.jpg http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/28/25/df/patisserie-richard.jpg Because the first image is what every bakery in Germany usually sells, too. But the 2nd one while you can often find some limited selection at bakeries, is what we usually buy at a Konditorei which has a much larger selecter with higher quality and looks like this: http://www.reschinsky.com/online/media/Torten_2.jpg A french patisserie will sell both kinds. A boulangerie will almost always also sell croisants (the first kind) even if it sells no other sweet stuff. For what it's worth, the first kind is generally refered to vienoiseries in France (where I come from) and danish pastry in Ireland (where I live). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: In the USA one occasionally sees local traffic only signed. It's meant to counter cut-through traffic by commuters and delivery trucks. Usually that would be access=destination. Not quite the same that you can only drive it if you're _from_ that street... One city installed physical barriers to such use: http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=8238#Diverters http://quirkyberkeley.com/fire-hydrants-and-traffic-barriers/ Deliberately breaking up the street grid to force through traffic onto main streets. Enough cities have done this now that I'm thinking Tulsa's actually relatively rare in that it's bicycle boulevards are *not* motor_vehicle=destination with lots of bicycle exempt turn restrictions. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town
In the USA one occasionally sees local traffic only signed. It's meant to counter cut-through traffic by commuters and delivery trucks. One city installed physical barriers to such use: http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=8238#Diverters http://quirkyberkeley.com/fire-hydrants-and-traffic-barriers/ Deliberately breaking up the street grid to force through traffic onto main streets. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/de/f0/35/el-tawhid-pastry.jpg http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/28/25/df/patisserie-richard.jpg Because the first image is what every bakery in Germany usually sells, too. But the 2nd one while you can often find some limited selection at bakeries, is what we usually buy at a Konditorei which has a much larger selecter with higher quality and looks like this: http://www.reschinsky.com/online/media/Torten_2.jpg __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
W dniu 11.05.2015 18:18, Andreas Goss napisał(a): Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? Yet another item just for sugar?... =} I was about to create an icon for shop=confectionery in default map style, because it looked like an easy thing with so high tag occurrence. Now I see the problem is complicated than only drawing the best I can: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1534 We may just choose tagging scheme like this and that, but I would also like to know which icon should be associated with each of suggested tags, so kind of a category tree (like candy is more specific than confectionery) would be very helpful. -- Piaseczno Miasto Wąskotorowe ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
