Re: [OSM-talk] revert.pl

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/9/4 Richard Weait :
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Richard Weait wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 8:02 PM, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
>>> It'll probably fail with error 500 because there are so many elements
>>> and the server seems unstable, so you can split the changeset using
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.pl/balrog/bulkupload/split.py and upload in
>>> reverse order, it should still be much quicker than using the revert
>>> tool.
>
> split.py expected changesets of version 0.3, but the API is providing
> version 0.6.  Split worked after I changed the version it expected.

Ahh yes, that's because the
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OsmChange page never mentions what
the version is supposed to be and all examples use "0.3" on that page
(is it possible that they come from the time when 0.3 was the API
version?).  I once made upload.py accept both 0.3 and 0.6 and forgot
to do the same to split.py but now changed it too.

>
> upload.py gave authentication errors.  Should I have escaped the "@"
> in my email address?

Honestly I don't know, I only ever login using the username alone (in
your case that would be rw__?), I'll try out email authentication next
time I'll be uploading something.  For now added a comment at the top
of the file.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] revert.pl

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Richard Weait wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 8:02 PM, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
>> It'll probably fail with error 500 because there are so many elements
>> and the server seems unstable, so you can split the changeset using
>> http://www.openstreetmap.pl/balrog/bulkupload/split.py and upload in
>> reverse order, it should still be much quicker than using the revert
>> tool.

split.py expected changesets of version 0.3, but the API is providing
version 0.6.  Split worked after I changed the version it expected.

upload.py gave authentication errors.  Should I have escaped the "@"
in my email address?

I was able to get revert.py to work on a small changeset by a
scribbler.  Very nice.  Thank you both, Andrzej and Frederik.

Best regards,
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Yathusan vandalism

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Andrew MacKinnon wrote:
> Found some more:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2365004
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2364986
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2364907
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2364884
>
> Not 100% sure they are vandalism since they are in B.C., but I
> strongly suspect so.

I've sent a second email through the web site.  No response to the
email I sent on Aug 22, after the previous bout of edits.

Some edits look like the scribbling of an uninformed and frustrated
new editor who doesn't realize that edits are live.  Others look
misguided at best.

Thank you for keeping an eye on this one Andrew.

Best regards,
Richard

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[OSM-talk] Yathusan vandalism

[Andrew MacKinnon]

Found some more:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2365004
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2364986
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2364907
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2364884

Not 100% sure they are vandalism since they are in B.C., but I
strongly suspect so.

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Re: [OSM-talk] revert.pl

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 8:02 PM, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> It'll probably fail with error 500 because there are so many elements
> and the server seems unstable, so you can split the changeset using
> http://www.openstreetmap.pl/balrog/bulkupload/split.py and upload in
> reverse order, it should still be much quicker than using the revert
> tool.

Thank you, I'll try that now.

Best regards,
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to read this list on the web (was: OSM Mailing List Reply To Header)

[Simon Ward]

On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 12:48:32PM +, Ed Avis wrote:
> If you prefer web interfaces, you can participate in this list via
> .  That is what I am doing 
> now.

I’ll add Nabble[1] into the pot.

[1]: http://www.nabble.com/OpenStreetMap-f1218.html

Simon
-- 
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simple system that works.—John Gall


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Simon Ward]

On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 02:08:51PM -0500, Joseph Booker wrote:
> > > Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well
> > 
> > and how many people have ever heard of that, let alone use it!
> 
> Probably very few, since it is called Claws Mail now :)

No, you get double the chance of having heard of it!

This one[1], and this one[2].

[1]: http://www.claws-mail.org/
[2]: http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/

Simon
-- 
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simple system that works.—John Gall


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Re: [OSM-talk] revert.pl

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/9/4 Richard Weait :
> At the risk of trifling with things that I do not fully understand[1],
> I've been using revert.pl to revert a changeset of my own.  I blew it
> and imported a file with "bad things"[2] and want to undo the mess.
>
> I have revert.pl fresh from svn today, and it runs, but eventually stops with
> "node 481692883 cannot be retrieved: 500 Internal Server Error"
>
> I've run it four times and it gets a few thousand nodes further each time.
>
> Any suggestions for successfully reverting this large changeset?

Since it's all creations in this changeset, you can simply download
the changeset from
http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/changeset/2354740/download ,
replace the  tag with  and upload using
http://www.openstreetmap.pl/balrog/bulkupload/upload.py

It'll probably fail with error 500 because there are so many elements
and the server seems unstable, so you can split the changeset using
http://www.openstreetmap.pl/balrog/bulkupload/split.py and upload in
reverse order, it should still be much quicker than using the revert
tool.

Cheers

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[OSM-talk] revert.pl

[Richard Weait]

At the risk of trifling with things that I do not fully understand[1],
I've been using revert.pl to revert a changeset of my own.  I blew it
and imported a file with "bad things"[2] and want to undo the mess.

I have revert.pl fresh from svn today, and it runs, but eventually stops with
"node 481692883 cannot be retrieved: 500 Internal Server Error"

I've run it four times and it gets a few thousand nodes further each time.

Any suggestions for successfully reverting this large changeset?

Best regards,
Richard

[1] and Frederik warned us not to do that
[2] spaces in keys.  Yuck.

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/9/3 Peter Miller :
> 2) We need to ensure that every contributor is on-balance making the
> dataset better, not worse. If the contribution is in doubt we owe it
> to other contributors to investigate and respond.

This is a situation where the contributions are in doubt, at least in
some areas.  I think we could borrow some of the conventions from
software projects, where the "current" state is considered to be
correct until proven incorrect.  We already have commit messages like
in software repositories so maybe it's a good idea to make the commit
messages obligatory too -- obligatory in the sense that any changeset
without a good description can be reverted for just that reason by
other people.

In a software project a commit message needs to:
 * describe what the change does,
 * why it's needed (rather than "This changes the way we start up"),
 * how it does it and why this is the right way to do it (rather than
"This fixes a segfault").

Any commit that doesn't have a message containing these three elements
is liable to revert and in most cases is reverted until the submitter
comes up with a better description.  The revert message obviously
needs to state what is wrong with the change or the message, sometime
by just referencing some rule number (even in wikipedia you have
revert messages like "Violates F.O.O.B.A.R.X.Y.Z. section #4").  For
OSM the rules would be much more relaxed than in software projects.

Since I'm used to writing commit messages I wouldn't mind such a
change but maybe I'm crazy and it's way to much bother for normal
mappers.  Is it?

> ...
> 8) Once someone has been identified as a problematic contributor then
> one only needs to perform a brief of inspection of subsequent edits
> before reversion future changesets. Liam123 is in this category now.
> 9) If the problem continues (Liam123 is actually probably in this
> category) then one puts then on 'virtual ban' where their edits get
> reverted with no inspection of the merit of the changes unless the
> person contacts a sys-admin and says they have grown-up and want
> another chance.

Couldn't we just lock such accounts until the person contacts the
admin / privileged person, and not have the objects in the database
spammed with bogus history?

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal

[Peter Miller]

On 3 Sep 2009, at 22:17, Someoneelse wrote:

> Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> ... But I really need people familiar
>> with the region who tell me that they are reasonably sure that the  
>> edits
>> are bogus.
>
> If it helps, I've just looked at a selection of 20 of the 60 ways  
> edited
> in changeset 2308178 by RR8.  This covers north Nottinghamshire in
> England.  One edit looks possibly correct (a road number has been
> continued from an adjacent stretch of road; it's possible that that  
> that
> could be legitimate, the other 19 edits do not look likely to be valid

>
> I've added an entry to the table in
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log
> as that's been suggested as a way of keeping track of requests.
>
> I've looked at a smaller number of ways in other changesets by RR8 in
> the surrounding area (Derby / Notts / Sheffield).  All look similarly
> suspect.
>
>> Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't
>> automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc.
>
> It certainly looks like he/she/it is messing up Northern England.

I think we need to agree on some guidance for response to possible  
vandals and what level of checking should be performed prior to  
reversion.

Personally I would suggest:-

1) We should expect that all contributors should at all time attempt  
to make good, accurate and well researched changes
2) We need to ensure that every contributor is on-balance making the  
dataset better, not worse. If the contribution is in doubt we owe it  
to other contributors to investigate and respond.
3) We should be aware that people make mistakes, need time to learn  
and newbies often need and will respond to support
4) We can request, but not require contributors to add a comments to  
their changesets and to have created a useful personal page with some  
details about their interest and knowledge. Doing this makes reversion  
less likely and make it more likely that the person will be helped if  
needed.
5) In the event that someone seems to be doing strange edits one  
should initially assume 'good faith' but should watch carefully and  
discuss with others if appropriate.
6) If a significant number of edits to ways can be definitively proved  
to be malicious, obscene, libelous or it is considered that they might  
bring the project into disrepute then the related change-sets can be  
reverted immediately without discussion and without 100% checking of  
the rest of the change-set.
7) If the edits are dubious but it can't be proved to be incorrect  
then one should contact the person and ask for some additional  
information. If one don't get a reasonable response (or gets no  
response) and the dubious edits continue and there are not a good  
number of balancing clearly positive contributions then one should  
look to prove at least one bad edit and may then come to the decision  
in discussion with others that it is appropriate to revert the change- 
set in question and potentially all changesets by that person.
8) Once someone has been identified as a problematic contributor then  
one only needs to perform a brief of inspection of subsequent edits  
before reversion future changesets. Liam123 is in this category now.
9) If the problem continues (Liam123 is actually probably in this  
category) then one puts then on 'virtual ban' where their edits get  
reverted with no inspection of the merit of the changes unless the  
person contacts a sys-admin and says they have grown-up and want  
another chance.
10) I someone performs bad edits in any part of the world then they  
can expect to be a global response because it seems very unlikely that  
someone would mess with Ireland and do good work in Iceland and I am  
not sure I would want to work out what was going on in their head - I  
would prefer to protect the good work of others from mischief that  
allow good work to be messed on the off-chance that some good edits  
are also made in amongst the nonsense.
11) People who revert other people's work should expect to be able to  
demonstrate that the reversion was well reasoned and proportionate to  
the issue.

Can we work on this a little on the list and if there is agreement  
copy to resulting text to the wiki?


Regards,



Peter



>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal

[Someoneelse]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> ... But I really need people familiar
> with the region who tell me that they are reasonably sure that the edits 
> are bogus. 

If it helps, I've just looked at a selection of 20 of the 60 ways edited 
in changeset 2308178 by RR8.  This covers north Nottinghamshire in 
England.  One edit looks possibly correct (a road number has been 
continued from an adjacent stretch of road; it's possible that that that 
could be legitimate, the other 19 edits do not look likely to be valid.

I've added an entry to the table in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log
as that's been suggested as a way of keeping track of requests.

I've looked at a smaller number of ways in other changesets by RR8 in 
the surrounding area (Derby / Notts / Sheffield).  All look similarly 
suspect.

 > Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't
 > automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc.

It certainly looks like he/she/it is messing up Northern England.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[Peter Miller]

On 3 Sep 2009, at 21:18, SteveC wrote:

>
> On 3 Sep 2009, at 07:04, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> Peter Miller wrote:
>> > Ok, so I have just had an RSS alert that Liam123 is back editing
>>> again today after a delay of 3 weeks.
>>
>> Probably because kids are back at school now.
>>
>> Look at his first changeset ever - it's next to his school. Of
>> course, it
>> would be an interesting experiment to e-mail the headteacher and let
>> him
>> know that his computer equipment is probably being used to vandalise
>> an
>> international collaborative project.
>
> Y'know I abused school computer equipment for most of my time in
> schools and universities, far better if someone can figure out how to
> help the kid out to the light side of The Force than to stamp on a
> little bit of creativity.
>
Liam123 is doing us a huge favour and I hope he continues to do what  
he has been doing for some time to come. We does some, but not too  
much damage every now and again and then gives us some time to improve  
our response. He has not done so much damage that it gets us negative  
publicity, but he is doing enough to force us to build an effective  
response which is just what we need at this point, and it is much  
better for us to be tested by some innocent graffiti and than anything  
more malicious. I am sure that in time he will become a more  
conventionally useful and upstanding member of society (as has our  
illustrious chairman;) ) however for now I suggest we allow him to  
carry on with his games while we get set up so we can respond in  
minutes to new interventions from him and others also also get some  
good tools to dig out all the previous mischief that he has left for  
us in the database (such as the B1008 which I spotted earlier today  
which he 'adjusted' back in June).

When we come to transfer to the new license we will of course need to  
be able to remove his and other contributions if we are not able to  
get an agreement to transfer to the new license, which might actually  
be another use for the same tools.



Regards,


Peter


> Yours &c.
>
> Steve
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Jack Stringer]

I guess it not a problem with the mailman mailing list manager. It
should have a option to set whether you want that header or not. This
would save many of the arguments.

I prefer the reply to mailing list. I keep replying to the last person
in threads. Often I don't notice until the next day. Its because I am
on 3 other high traffic mailing lists that use reply to mailing list
headers.

btw the next big thing to beat e-mail is Google Wave, I am not sure
about it yet but it might take off.



Jack Stringer

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[SteveC]

On 3 Sep 2009, at 07:04, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Peter Miller wrote:
> > Ok, so I have just had an RSS alert that Liam123 is back editing
>> again today after a delay of 3 weeks.
>
> Probably because kids are back at school now.
>
> Look at his first changeset ever - it's next to his school. Of  
> course, it
> would be an interesting experiment to e-mail the headteacher and let  
> him
> know that his computer equipment is probably being used to vandalise  
> an
> international collaborative project.

Y'know I abused school computer equipment for most of my time in  
schools and universities, far better if someone can figure out how to  
help the kid out to the light side of The Force than to stamp on a  
little bit of creativity.

Yours &c.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Joseph Booker]

On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:24:12 +0100
David Earl  wrote:

> On 03/09/2009 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote:
> > Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well
> 
> and how many people have ever heard of that, let alone use it!

Probably very few, since it is called Claws Mail now :)

Full Disclosure: I use it, and the normal reply button just goes to the
list, so I'm in the your-mail-client-is-obviously-broken camp.

-- 
Joseph Booker


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Re: [OSM-talk] Inconsistency in way history?

[Shaun McDonald]

The reason for the discrepancy will probably be attributed to one of  
the nodes having been changed by Mr Mark on 23 July since Liam123 made  
the change on 2 June.


The Potlatch history takes into account the nodes history too, by  
using the timestamps.


Shaun

On 3 Sep 2009, at 17:09, Peter Miller wrote:



This page indicates that the last way says the last editor was Liam123
on 2 June 2009
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23180071

However, if one clicks the 'edit' button it goes to Potlatch and if
one then clicks 'h' for history then it says the last editor is Mr
Mark on 23 July 2009.

Fyi, Liam123 changed the this way from highway=unclassified to
highway=secondary and added the tag ref=B1008 on 2 June 2009  which
both appear to be incorrect.

Any explanations? something to do with ways and nodes possibly.



Regards,




Peter




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[OSM-talk] Inconsistency in way history?

[Peter Miller]

This page indicates that the last way says the last editor was Liam123  
on 2 June 2009
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23180071

However, if one clicks the 'edit' button it goes to Potlatch and if  
one then clicks 'h' for history then it says the last editor is Mr  
Mark on 23 July 2009.

Fyi, Liam123 changed the this way from highway=unclassified to  
highway=secondary and added the tag ref=B1008 on 2 June 2009  which  
both appear to be incorrect.

Any explanations? something to do with ways and nodes possibly.



Regards,




Peter




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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Chris Jones]

MP wrote:
>>  > Also most people don't want the reply sent too them twice as if they
>>  > are posting they are on the list, and hence should receive the answer
>>  > twice.
>>
>> How do you know? Did you ask them? I _want_ to get direct copies. In case
>>  people don't want to read mails twice they can tell the list "don't send
>>  me a second copy" or tell their mail reader "deduplicate my mail please".
>> 
>
> Well, Thunderbird, which I use as mail client can't deduplicate the
> mail. Especially if the mail that went through list have few extra
> headers and a footer added, so these mails are no longer the same. So
> I end up with two almost identical mails in my inbox.
You can just ask the list to not send you a copy of mail with you in the 
To: or cc: fields...

* Goto http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
* At the base of the page enter your email address and click 'Unsubcribe 
or edit options'
* Enter your mailing list password and click 'Login'
* Set the 'Avoid duplicate copies of messages?' to yes
* No more duplicate messages...

Simple!

--
Chris Jones, SUCS Admin
http://sucs.org

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Florian Lohoff]

On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 11:36:14AM +0200, Patrick Petschge Kilian wrote:
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on
> > all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email,
> > so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default.
> In short you missed http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> 
> 
> > This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit
> > annoying having to use "Reply to all" then remove everyone except the
> > list.
> Just because it is a habit doesn't mean it's not a bad habit.

I second this - i am getting multiple thousand mails/day and people trying
to have an argument with me should CC me directly otherwise the argument
might take weeks to months ...

I consider Reply-To: with a list adress as broken. I am in a comfortable
situation to fix this at least for my inbox ...

:0 fhc
* ^List-Id: Openstreetmap allgemeines in Deutsch 
| formail -R Reply-To X-No-Reply-To

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org
"Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat
im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen."
- - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[John Smith]

2009/9/4 Richard Fairhurst :
> That's lovely, but it would be less selfish if you could refrain from
> filling up the rest of our mailboxes' with it, given that you've been
> responsible for over 10% of postings to talk@ since August 1st.

I'm glad you care so much you took the time to keep stats, next time I
need some info I know exactly who to ask! :)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Richard Fairhurst]

John Smith wrote:
> I usually find it immensely useful to talk out loud about what 
> I'm coding and it usually solves some problem I was stuck on 
> just by talking someone else through it.

That's lovely, but it would be less selfish if you could refrain from
filling up the rest of our mailboxes' with it, given that you've been
responsible for over 10% of postings to talk@ since August 1st.

Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Brainstorming%3A-Simple-Revert-Tools-tp25262655p25277840.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[John Smith]

2009/9/4 Dave Stubbs :
> At the end of the day it's just another editor, you'll need an OSM
> account to edit with it. Save the rest till it matters.

I usually find it immensely useful to talk out loud about what I'm
coding and it usually solves some problem I was stuck on just by
talking someone else through it.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[John Smith]

2009/9/4 Peter Körner :

> First would be to build a tool that is able to revert changesets. Who is
> able to revert which changeset comes after that.

Maybe not just who, but where they can revert a change set as well.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Dave Stubbs]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Liz wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Peter Miller wrote:
>> Only 'established users' can upload images to Wikipedia and I would
>> suggest that the revert option is only available to established OSM
>> users. It would need to take many edits to get 'established' but it
>> means that there are some controls on 'drive-by vandals' who register
>> and then cause mischief. I guess one can loose one's 'established
>> user' credentials by partaking in vandalism.
>
> I'd think that when we hit by vandalism in AU we would be talking on the local
> list and making a decision on reverting changes.
> I would think that a "higher status" mapper would be actually permitted to
> make the changes rather than anyone.
>


Complex access metrics for an as yet non-existent tool, that can
actually do less damage than most existing editors, seems just a
little like either

a) overkill

b) a complete waste of time

c) fundamentally missing the point

At the end of the day it's just another editor, you'll need an OSM
account to edit with it. Save the rest till it matters.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[John Smith]

2009/9/4 Peter Körner :
>> Will you be able to revert a reverted changeset?
>
> A reversion is just a new changeset, so basicaly: yes, i think. We could
> artificialy prevent a circle like this:
>  - A reverts Bs changeset 1 -> results in changeset 2
>  - B reverts As changeset 2 -> results in changeset 3
>  - A reverts Bs changeset 3 -> results in changeset 4
>  - B reverts As changeset 4 -> results in changeset 5
>  - the tool prevents A from reverting changeset 5
>  - others (including A) may still revert 5
>  - A and B may revert other changesets from each other

I wasn't thinking of that case so much as someone being a little over
zealous and reverting a changeset by accident and needing to revert
their change.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[Peter Körner]

> I wasn't thinking of that case so much as someone being a little over
> zealous and reverting a changeset by accident and needing to revert
> their change.

This will of course be possible

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[Peter Körner]

John Smith schrieb:
> 2009/9/3 Peter Körner :
> 
>> I'm talking about building an external tool without any integration into
>> osm.org, as this is what i'm capable of. This tool can be visited by any
>> user and any user may do OAuth-Sign-In with this tool. The tool can't
>> tell if the user is allowed to revert until he has gone through this
>> procedure, so it's got to present a notice to the user that just
>> authenticated and is still not allowed to use the tool.
> 
> Will you be able to revert a reverted changeset?

A reversion is just a new changeset, so basicaly: yes, i think. We could 
artificialy prevent a circle like this:
  - A reverts Bs changeset 1 -> results in changeset 2
  - B reverts As changeset 2 -> results in changeset 3
  - A reverts Bs changeset 3 -> results in changeset 4
  - B reverts As changeset 4 -> results in changeset 5
  - the tool prevents A from reverting changeset 5
  - others (including A) may still revert 5
  - A and B may revert other changesets from each other

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Peter Körner]

maning sambale schrieb:
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Liz wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Peter Körner wrote:
>>> maning sambale schrieb:
 Revert my own and only my own changeset.
>>> Okay.. and how about vandalists?
>>>
>>> Peter
>> i though maning meant this was a separate option
> Yes, let's do this first and then work from there.

First would be to build a tool that is able to revert changesets. Who is 
able to revert which changeset comes after that.

Peter


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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Peter Körner]

Andy Allan schrieb:
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Dave Stubbs wrote:
> 
>> Assuming you're looking for a tool to actually do reverts, then I'd
>> suggest a plugin to an editor -- most meaningful reverts are going to
>> result in a conflict that has to be edited -- you might have to
>> rebuild unconnected bits of the map by hand if you're reverting a
>> delete and someone has added something new in the meantime.
> 
> I agree. Reverting changesets "blindly" (whether by script or by
> clicking a link on a web interface) is putting too much faith in the
> tools and too little opportunity to sanity-check what's going on.
> Since even with the most trivial of reverts it's worth checking that
> what's happening is what you meant to happen, then it would be wise to
> properly equip the person doing the reverting with the tools they need
> to sanity-check their actions. i.e. an editor.

I understand your concerns but I still think a web-app would be the way 
to go. Maybe we could add a preview-slippymap that shows
  - moved nodes with an arrow from their current location to
the reverted one
  - the new course of ways after the revert
  - popups like on openstreetbugs with the changes in the tags

Peter


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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[Richard Fairhurst]

Peter Miller wrote:
> Ok, so I have just had an RSS alert that Liam123 is back editing 
> again today after a delay of 3 weeks.

Probably because kids are back at school now.

Look at his first changeset ever - it's next to his school. Of course, it
would be an interesting experiment to e-mail the headteacher and let him
know that his computer equipment is probably being used to vandalise an
international collaborative project.

> His edit log ominously says he is 'still editing' [1]

That's nothing particularly ominous - it just means the changeset hasn't
been expressly closed.

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Brainstorming%3A-Simple-Revert-Tools-tp25262655p25276793.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[MP]

>  > Also most people don't want the reply sent too them twice as if they
>  > are posting they are on the list, and hence should receive the answer
>  > twice.
>
> How do you know? Did you ask them? I _want_ to get direct copies. In case
>  people don't want to read mails twice they can tell the list "don't send
>  me a second copy" or tell their mail reader "deduplicate my mail please".

Well, Thunderbird, which I use as mail client can't deduplicate the
mail. Especially if the mail that went through list have few extra
headers and a footer added, so these mails are no longer the same. So
I end up with two almost identical mails in my inbox.

As for replying, there is usually no button "reply to list" in mail
clients I use (not in thunderbird or in gmail), so whether I press
reply or reply to all, I have to manually edit To: so there would be
only list.

>  > If someone want to reply off list then they can change but the default
>  > should be on-list.
>
> Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without
>  an annoying reply-to header which was never meant to do want you want it
>  to do.

Neither thunderbird or gmail does that.

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[maning sambale]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Liz wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Peter Körner wrote:
>> maning sambale schrieb:
>> > Revert my own and only my own changeset.
>>
>> Okay.. and how about vandalists?
>>
>> Peter
> i though maning meant this was a separate option
Yes, let's do this first and then work from there.
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>



-- 
cheers,
maning
--
"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Peter Körner :

> I'm talking about building an external tool without any integration into
> osm.org, as this is what i'm capable of. This tool can be visited by any
> user and any user may do OAuth-Sign-In with this tool. The tool can't
> tell if the user is allowed to revert until he has gone through this
> procedure, so it's got to present a notice to the user that just
> authenticated and is still not allowed to use the tool.

Will you be able to revert a reverted changeset?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Peter Miller]

On 3 Sep 2009, at 14:04, Andy Allan wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Peter Miller > wrote:
>
>> I agree that there should be a 'easy revert' for a single changeset.
>> This might result in a 'clean' revert (where none of the features  
>> have
>> been touched since),
>
> Just want to point out that there's more to life in OSM than
> particular features, and practically no changeset can be cleanly
> reverted. Two examples:
>
> Bad changeset #123: delete the node "London". Was node 456 v10, now
> 456 v11 (deleted)
> (Intermediate changeset: add a node for London)
> Revert changeset #123: node 456 hasn't been touched since, so  
> reinstate.

Could you put these as validation 'use cases' onto the wiki so that a  
tool can be tested against them? It will be very useful to have all  
the delinquent cases available for consideration before work starts on  
the code.

I guess that the tool should ideally be able to check for manual  
reinstatement of the same or similar features.

>
> Not what you wanted.
>
> Bad changeset #333: moved node #1234 (v2->v3) in way #4567 (v15 - not
> changed in this changeset)
> (Intermediate changeset: remove node #1234 from way #4567, but the
> node isn't itself deleted)
> Revert changset #333:  node #1234 hasn't been touched since, move it
> back to where it started.
>
Again, lets have this on the wiki please.

We also need to consider how relations can interact in difficult ways  
with the data.

> Not what you wanted either.
>
> The version numbers only apply to the primitives, not the state of the
> system (which has both relationships between primitives and spatial
> relationships). This makes hands-off reverting very tricky.
>
Sure, so possibly it should be 'hands on'. I am not getting into how  
it works or the solution at all, only that we need to get on with  
solving this interesting and tricky problem sooner rather than later.



Regards,


Peter



> Cheers,
> Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[Peter Miller]

On 3 Sep 2009, at 14:34, Peter Körner wrote:

> Richard Weait schrieb:
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 3:05 AM, Peter Körner> li...@mazdermind.de> wrote:
 Making 10 changesets of more than 10 features each over a period  
 of at
 least 2 weeks without attracting reverts or complaints should be
 sufficient I would have thought. That would mean that a newbie  
 who gets
 on with it can be 'established' within 2 weeks. I think that was  
 how
 long it took me to get rights to upload images to Wikipiedia. Some
 vandals will slip through, but that is fine - we can deal with  
 them in
 the usual way.
>>> We'll have to build a simple, calculateble and provable  
>>> explanation from
>>> that, that every newbee understands. Also we should create a error- 
>>> text
>>> that the tool displays when the conditions are not (yet) matched.  
>>> This
>>> text should not demoralize the avarage user and tell him how long it
>>> will take until he can use this tool and why he can't use it yet.  
>>> Any
>>> copywriter out here?
>>
>> The revert button (or other UI decoration) should not appear for  
>> users
>> that are not logged-in.  Perhaps revert should be invisible for users
>> that are not yet able to revert?
>
> I'm talking about building an external tool without any integration  
> into
> osm.org, as this is what i'm capable of. This tool can be visited by  
> any
> user and any user may do OAuth-Sign-In with this tool. The tool can't
> tell if the user is allowed to revert until he has gone through this
> procedure, so it's got to present a notice to the user that just
> authenticated and is still not allowed to use the tool.

Ok, so I have just had an RSS alert that Liam123 is back editing again  
today after a delay of 3 weeks. His edits are random and far reaching,  
often in Essex and Kent but also in other places. His edit log  
ominously says he is 'still editing' [1]

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/liam123/edits


Regards,



Peter



>
> Peter
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Peter Miller]

On 3 Sep 2009, at 12:33, Peter Körner wrote:

>> You could check the tool on the edits made over the previous two  
>> months by Liam123, some of which have still not been reverted for  
>> lack of a suitable tool to achieve it.
>
> Are you talking about http://openstreetmap.org/user/liam123 ? Are we  
> sure that this is really vandalism?

In a word - yes. Try this thread [1] or just Google for 'Liam123' for  
some background to exactly the same discussion from a month ago on  
talk-gb about vandalism, but without the result in a tool being  
developed.

>
> For now I won't commit anything to the api but just show the calls I  
> would have made (dry run) and I'll test it with some of my own  
> changes to avoid messing things up for others, but as time goes by  
> it would be good to have some examples to do practical testing.
>

Sounds good.


[1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2009-July/004135.html


Regards,


Peter


> Peter


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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[Peter Körner]

Richard Weait schrieb:
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 3:05 AM, Peter Körner wrote:
>>> Making 10 changesets of more than 10 features each over a period of at
>>> least 2 weeks without attracting reverts or complaints should be
>>> sufficient I would have thought. That would mean that a newbie who gets
>>> on with it can be 'established' within 2 weeks. I think that was how
>>> long it took me to get rights to upload images to Wikipiedia. Some
>>> vandals will slip through, but that is fine - we can deal with them in
>>> the usual way.
>> We'll have to build a simple, calculateble and provable explanation from
>> that, that every newbee understands. Also we should create a error-text
>> that the tool displays when the conditions are not (yet) matched. This
>> text should not demoralize the avarage user and tell him how long it
>> will take until he can use this tool and why he can't use it yet. Any
>> copywriter out here?
> 
> The revert button (or other UI decoration) should not appear for users
> that are not logged-in.  Perhaps revert should be invisible for users
> that are not yet able to revert?

I'm talking about building an external tool without any integration into 
osm.org, as this is what i'm capable of. This tool can be visited by any 
user and any user may do OAuth-Sign-In with this tool. The tool can't 
tell if the user is allowed to revert until he has gone through this 
procedure, so it's got to present a notice to the user that just 
authenticated and is still not allowed to use the tool.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Christoph Boehme]

David Earl  wrote:
> On 03/09/2009 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote:
> > Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well
> 
> and how many people have ever heard of that, let alone use it!

Admittedly, it is not the most widely used email client but it has very
good support for mailing lists.

> > and Thunderbird has an add-on which adds the command [1].
> 
> which I tried and it doesn't always work. 

I noticed that this happens when I am cc'ed directly in an email to the
list so that the list manager had no chance to add its list-headers.

> As others have said, no widely used mail client does this. Telling 
> people to switch to mail clients that no one has heard of is not
> helpful.

I do not want people to switch their email clients. I just seconded the
point that "virtually no mail client does this" is not quite correct and
that there are email clients which support "reply to list" (and not all
of them are obscure).

Perhaps some find the Thunderbird plugin helpful to use the mailing
list with the current reply-to setting.

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Andy Allan]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Dave Stubbs wrote:

> Assuming you're looking for a tool to actually do reverts, then I'd
> suggest a plugin to an editor -- most meaningful reverts are going to
> result in a conflict that has to be edited -- you might have to
> rebuild unconnected bits of the map by hand if you're reverting a
> delete and someone has added something new in the meantime.

I agree. Reverting changesets "blindly" (whether by script or by
clicking a link on a web interface) is putting too much faith in the
tools and too little opportunity to sanity-check what's going on.
Since even with the most trivial of reverts it's worth checking that
what's happening is what you meant to happen, then it would be wise to
properly equip the person doing the reverting with the tools they need
to sanity-check their actions. i.e. an editor.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Andy Allan]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Peter Miller wrote:

> I agree that there should be a 'easy revert' for a single changeset.
> This might result in a 'clean' revert (where none of the features have
> been touched since),

Just want to point out that there's more to life in OSM than
particular features, and practically no changeset can be cleanly
reverted. Two examples:

Bad changeset #123: delete the node "London". Was node 456 v10, now
456 v11 (deleted)
(Intermediate changeset: add a node for London)
Revert changeset #123: node 456 hasn't been touched since, so reinstate.

Not what you wanted.

Bad changeset #333: moved node #1234 (v2->v3) in way #4567 (v15 - not
changed in this changeset)
(Intermediate changeset: remove node #1234 from way #4567, but the
node isn't itself deleted)
Revert changset #333:  node #1234 hasn't been touched since, move it
back to where it started.

Not what you wanted either.

The version numbers only apply to the primitives, not the state of the
system (which has both relationships between primitives and spatial
relationships). This makes hands-off reverting very tricky.

Cheers,
Andy

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[OSM-talk] How to read this list on the web (was: OSM Mailing List Reply To Header)

[Ed Avis]

If you prefer web interfaces, you can participate in this list via
.  That is what I am doing 
now.

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 3:05 AM, Peter Körner wrote:
>> Making 10 changesets of more than 10 features each over a period of at
>> least 2 weeks without attracting reverts or complaints should be
>> sufficient I would have thought. That would mean that a newbie who gets
>> on with it can be 'established' within 2 weeks. I think that was how
>> long it took me to get rights to upload images to Wikipiedia. Some
>> vandals will slip through, but that is fine - we can deal with them in
>> the usual way.
> We'll have to build a simple, calculateble and provable explanation from
> that, that every newbee understands. Also we should create a error-text
> that the tool displays when the conditions are not (yet) matched. This
> text should not demoralize the avarage user and tell him how long it
> will take until he can use this tool and why he can't use it yet. Any
> copywriter out here?

The revert button (or other UI decoration) should not appear for users
that are not logged-in.  Perhaps revert should be invisible for users
that are not yet able to revert?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Tom Hughes]

On 03/09/09 13:32, John Smith wrote:
> 2009/9/3 Peter Körner:
>>> You might want to investigate setting up some test scripts to import,
>>> edit and then revert data. But do any testing against a test database
>>> and not the real thing :-)
>>
>> Hmm the tool I'm working on at the moment will work with tha API and
>> without a local DB, so I'd need a test-api. Do we have such?
>
> http://api06.old-dev.openstreetmap.org

Er, no... What you want is:

   http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org

(the dev name was redirecting to old-dev for a few days during the 
transition to the new server but that has now stopped).

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Peter Körner :
>> You might want to investigate setting up some test scripts to import,
>> edit and then revert data. But do any testing against a test database
>> and not the real thing :-)
>
> Hmm the tool I'm working on at the moment will work with tha API and
> without a local DB, so I'd need a test-api. Do we have such?

http://api06.old-dev.openstreetmap.org

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Liz]

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Tom Hughes wrote:
> Look people. This is, and has been for the 16 years that I have been
> reading email, a holy war issue (just like vi vs emacs etc) and whatever
> you do the other side will just complain.
>
> Frankly I long ago gave up caring - it's impossible to please everybody
> so there is no point in trying.
>
> Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of
> complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the
> point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago.
>
> Tom
if you want to vote no, could you say so?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Peter Körner]

> You might want to investigate setting up some test scripts to import,
> edit and then revert data. But do any testing against a test database
> and not the real thing :-)

Hmm the tool I'm working on at the moment will work with tha API and 
without a local DB, so I'd need a test-api. Do we have such?

I don't like do write-actions to the DB without beeing sure they are 
correct.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Tom Hughes]

On 03/09/09 12:40, Mike N. wrote:

>The current communications methods are very awkward, particularly when
> participating in more than one subject.   The amount of time to create a new
> password and sign up is absurd compared to a more typical single sign-on web
> forum based setup.

That's trivial compared to the ongoing per-message cost of reading a 
forum vs a mailing list. That's why I read mailing lists and ignore web 
forums - they just take too much time to read.

All of which is, of course, supremely irrelevant to the subject under 
discussion here. We have both mailing lists and forums so people can 
choose which to use.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Dave Stubbs]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Peter Körner wrote:
>> You could check the tool on the edits made over the previous two months
>> by Liam123, some of which have still not been reverted for lack of a
>> suitable tool to achieve it.
>
> Are you talking about http://openstreetmap.org/user/liam123 ? Are we
> sure that this is really vandalism?
>
> For now I won't commit anything to the api but just show the calls I
> would have made (dry run) and I'll test it with some of my own changes
> to avoid messing things up for others, but as time goes by it would be
> good to have some examples to do practical testing.
>

You might want to investigate setting up some test scripts to import,
edit and then revert data. But do any testing against a test database
and not the real thing :-)

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Tom Hughes]

On 03/09/09 12:49, John Smith wrote:
> 2009/9/3 Tom Hughes:
>
>> Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of
>> complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the
>> point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago.
>
> You can't exactly take the high road here, reply to headers get munged
> on other OSM lists, can we please have some consistency, either turn
> them all on or all off.

Each list is managed by a different person, and the settings for the 
list are entirely up to them.

I'm not actually the manager for any of the lists being talked about 
here but I do have the master password so can in theory change any list. 
I don't plan to however - I plan to let list owners decide.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Mike N. :

>   Some web forums allow email-based communications for those who need that.
> And for those modern kids, it allows RSS feeds, quickly adding new forum
> subject categories as needed, and rapid searching and archived thread
> following rather than relying on Google.

We're not using a web based forums, in fact most people don't use the
OSM web based forums, please stop making straw men arguments.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Peter Childs]

I was only trying to sort out what I find to be an annoyance and a
possible cause of why we get a lot of emails on this list without
answers. I did not mean to start a holy war.

Personally I think Email needs a complete and utter re-design from the
ground up. Its not fit for the purpose it is now being used for, and
forums are no better. But I will not go into that discussion here
because its Off Topic and Silly, We have to cope with what we've got
rather than try and reinvent the wheel.

When I finally start a blog I will put a post on it about what I
think we need to replace email.

Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Tom Hughes :

> Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of
> complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the
> point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago.

You can't exactly take the high road here, reply to headers get munged
on other OSM lists, can we please have some consistency, either turn
them all on or all off.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Tom Hughes :
> On 03/09/09 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote:
>
>> Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and Thunderbird has an add-on
>> which adds the command [1].
>
> Thunderbird 3 has it built in.

Most people don't use email programs any more, most use webmail
because it's ubiqutious between PCs, mobile phones etc etc etc

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Tom Hughes]

On 03/09/09 12:28, John Smith wrote:

> I hope the reply to changes, if for nothing else than to be
> inclusionary of new people so they don't have to learn to cope with
> the self righteousness of others.
>
> Can we get the reply to on this and the talk-au list and the dev list
> changed please.

Look people. This is, and has been for the 16 years that I have been 
reading email, a holy war issue (just like vi vs emacs etc) and whatever 
you do the other side will just complain.

Frankly I long ago gave up caring - it's impossible to please everybody 
so there is no point in trying.

Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of 
complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the 
point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Mike N.]

> We have to deal witht he reality of the situation, no commonly used
> mail client handles list headers properly, so it's pointless to argue
> this is a good reason to keep the status quo, in fact it's a good
> reason to set the reply to to the list since most mail clients don't
> handle it properly, and most new comers don't know they have to hit
> reply to all.

  The current communications methods are very awkward, particularly when 
participating in more than one subject.   The amount of time to create a new 
password and sign up is absurd compared to a more typical single sign-on web 
forum based setup.

   Some web forums allow email-based communications for those who need that. 
And for those modern kids, it allows RSS feeds, quickly adding new forum 
subject categories as needed, and rapid searching and archived thread 
following rather than relying on Google. 


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Tom Hughes]

On 03/09/09 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote:

> Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and Thunderbird has an add-on
> which adds the command [1].

Thunderbird 3 has it built in.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Peter Körner]

> You could check the tool on the edits made over the previous two months 
> by Liam123, some of which have still not been reverted for lack of a 
> suitable tool to achieve it.

Are you talking about http://openstreetmap.org/user/liam123 ? Are we 
sure that this is really vandalism?

For now I won't commit anything to the api but just show the calls I 
would have made (dry run) and I'll test it with some of my own changes 
to avoid messing things up for others, but as time goes by it would be 
good to have some examples to do practical testing.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Matt Williams :
> 2009/9/3 John Smith :
>> And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the
>> email client didn't reply to the list?
>
> No, it was because GMail defaulted to emailing just you and I forgot
> about it until it was too late. It's caught me out several times. I
> guess the other mailing lists I'm on 'munge' the reply-to header to
> make it work in GMail. I just can't wait for my internet to improve so
> I can go back to using IMAP in KMail.

Some of us care more about being practical and dealing with things the
way that are.

I hope the reply to changes, if for nothing else than to be
inclusionary of new people so they don't have to learn to cope with
the self righteousness of others.

Can we get the reply to on this and the talk-au list and the dev list
changed please.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[David Earl]

On 03/09/2009 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote:
> Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well

and how many people have ever heard of that, let alone use it!

> and Thunderbird has an add-on which adds the command [1].

which I tried and it doesn't always work. And in any case if you have to 
press a separate button from normal replying, it's no more use than 
having to remember to reply to all. The whole point is that you want to 
be able to set up reply so that for lists it replies the way you want, 
not how the listmaster thinks you ought to want.

As others have said, no widely used mail client does this. Telling 
people to switch to mail clients that no one has heard of is not helpful.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Matt Williams]

2009/9/3 John Smith :
> And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the
> email client didn't reply to the list?

No, it was because GMail defaulted to emailing just you and I forgot
about it until it was too late. It's caught me out several times. I
guess the other mailing lists I'm on 'munge' the reply-to header to
make it work in GMail. I just can't wait for my internet to improve so
I can go back to using IMAP in KMail.

-- 
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http://milliams.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Liz]

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Ulf Lamping wrote:
> Repeating this link again and again doesn't make it any more right or
> wrong than any other opinion.
I've read it all before.
I'm on kmail, I've set reply to list , but its getting harder with the newer 
kmails to find the setting

I frankly disagree with the opinion that it is harmful to set "reply to list"
It is actually harmful to those persons who are still having to use windows 
instead of nice clear understandable unix based system :-) to make them jump 
through all sorts of hoops just to reply to a mailing list instead of the 
author of the mail.
That particular author http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html is just 
plain self-righteous about his superior Unix based system and just so way 
behind with email management and mailing list management. I've run my own mail 
server and provided mailing lists for some years and certainly didn't find the 
difficulties that that author did.

Just line up this argument with the other important religious wars of the 20th 
century like "vi vs emacs" and please lets ask how many people would like the 
list reply to headers set.






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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Christoph Boehme]

Matt Williams wrote:
> 2009/9/3 John Smith :
>> 2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge :
>>> Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without
>> Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's
>> how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would
>> have such a client.
> 
> I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in
> the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and
> 'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works
> fine on all these OSM mailing lists.

Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and Thunderbird has an add-on 
which adds the command [1].

Cheers
Christoph

[1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/4455

> However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying.
> Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the
> email and not the list at all.
> 
> So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and
> the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's
> don't have a 'reply-to' field so it seems that GMail defaults to
> replying to the address in the 'From' field. Even when there's
> obviously List headers:
> 
> Precedence: list
> List-Id: OpenStreetMap user discussion 
> List-Unsubscribe: ,
>   
> List-Archive: 
> List-Post: 
> List-Help: 
> List-Subscribe: ,
>   
> 
> (In fact it happened when sending this email that GMail defaulted to
> sending it to just John and I forgot to change it. This is my second
> try. This needs a bug report to GMail)
> 
> Regards,
> Matt Williams
> http://milliams.com
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Matt Williams :
> I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in
> the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and
> 'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works
> fine on all these OSM mailing lists.

Most people don't use kmail, nor any other mail client that handles
list replying properly.

> However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying.
> Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the
> email and not the list at all.

And no greasemonkey script either. And the greasemonkey scripts that
do exist to do reply to all don't work anyway.

> So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and
> the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's

We have to deal witht he reality of the situation, no commonly used
mail client handles list headers properly, so it's pointless to argue
this is a good reason to keep the status quo, in fact it's a good
reason to set the reply to to the list since most mail clients don't
handle it properly, and most new comers don't know they have to hit
reply to all.

And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the
email client didn't reply to the list?

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Ulf Lamping]

Patrick Petschge Kilian schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
>> Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on
>> all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email,
>> so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default.
> In short you missed http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

Hi!

Repeating this link again and again doesn't make it any more right or 
wrong than any other opinion.

Wasn't it Stalin who said: "You have to repeat a lie often enough to 
become the truth"? ;-)

Chip Rosenthal expressed what he expects - fine.

It's obvious from the repeating mails on this topic, that a lot of 
others expect something else.

 >> This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit
 >> annoying having to use "Reply to all" then remove everyone except the
 >> list.
 > Just because it is a habit doesn't mean it's not a bad habit.

Right, but that also mean, your workflow (habit) doesn't mean it's not 
a bad habit. Maybe you're only got used to it ...


I know both ways have their pros and cons, so telling other people they 
are doing something wrong (or bad) is just ...

Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Matt Williams]

2009/9/3 John Smith :
> 2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge :
>> Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without
>
> Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's
> how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would
> have such a client.

I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in
the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and
'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works
fine on all these OSM mailing lists.

However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying.
Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the
email and not the list at all.

So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and
the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's
don't have a 'reply-to' field so it seems that GMail defaults to
replying to the address in the 'From' field. Even when there's
obviously List headers:

Precedence: list
List-Id: OpenStreetMap user discussion 
List-Unsubscribe: ,

List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: ,


(In fact it happened when sending this email that GMail defaulted to
sending it to just John and I forgot to change it. This is my second
try. This needs a bug report to GMail)

Regards,
Matt Williams
http://milliams.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Liz]

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Peter Körner wrote:
> maning sambale schrieb:
> > Revert my own and only my own changeset.
>
> Okay.. and how about vandalists?
>
> Peter
i though maning meant this was a separate option


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[OSM-talk] beginner's guide all in one page

[maning sambale]

Hi,

I'm looking for an all in one page of the beginner's guide:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners%27_Guide

Good for printing or giving out to people without net connection.

Is there any hidden in the wiki?
-- 
cheers,
maning
--
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blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Liz]

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Peter Miller wrote:
> Only 'established users' can upload images to Wikipedia and I would  
> suggest that the revert option is only available to established OSM  
> users. It would need to take many edits to get 'established' but it  
> means that there are some controls on 'drive-by vandals' who register  
> and then cause mischief. I guess one can loose one's 'established  
> user' credentials by partaking in vandalism.

I'd think that when we hit by vandalism in AU we would be talking on the local 
list and making a decision on reverting changes.
I would think that a "higher status" mapper would be actually permitted to 
make the changes rather than anyone.

LIz

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge :

> Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without

Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's
how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would
have such a client.

> an annoying reply-to header which was never meant to do want you want it
> to do.

Spam filters don't like getting mail from yourself in this manner,
because it's a common tactic of spammers.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 Lester Caine :

> People will explain why the current way is 'right' and other lists are
> wrong, and to be honest both views ARE equally valid :(

When it comes to being inclusionary I think it's a valid argument to
not require people to hit reply to all, many people new to mailing
lists don't know any better and they are penalised as a result.

> In an ideal world, the email client would actually take care of the
> matter and would provided each camp with their own preferred view of
> things - but then the programmers there are in one camp or the other ...

Yes, but the fact is most don't I couldn't even find a greasemonkey
script to do it in firefox/gmail.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Peter Miller]

On 3 Sep 2009, at 10:05, Pieren wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Dave  
> Stubbs wrote:
>> As far as I know most of the tools used for reverting currently are
>> also public -- the problem being, they're dangerous to use if you
>> don't know what you're doing, not at all user friendly, deliberately
>> hard to use to make sure you do know what you're doing, and not
>> remotely capable of dealing with conflicts.
>>
>> Dave
>
> That's where I disagree. We should stop considering 'revert' as
> 'dangerous to use if you don't know what you're doing'. It is not more
> dangerous as any other edits, it's just a different way to select
> elements and modify them. The only difference is that you refere to a
> particular state of the dataset (changeset) which might be obsolete
> (in which case the 'easy revert' should be aborted) in the same way as
> when two contributors work in parallel in the same area.
> We cannot say in one side "let the crowd create, modify or delete
> elements as easy as possible" and in the other side "make revert hard
> to use".
> I'm still in favour of having an "easy revert" as a first attempt on
> the main site and only provide more complexe tools into editors in
> case of conflicts.

I agree that there should be a 'easy revert' for a single changeset.  
This might result in a 'clean' revert (where none of the features have  
been touched since), a partial success with a conflict report (where  
only some features could e reverted because they have already been  
deleted or whatever), or a total failure  (possibly where the  
changeset has already been reverted).

This is not of course a 'revert' in that the original changeset will  
still be in the history, its just that the data will be back to the  
original state.

> But you will have to explaine how you deal with the
> 145 changesets of RR8 if you have to enter manually each number in
> your editor.

When it comes to reverting multiple changesets there will be a benefit  
to doing them all together possibly, or strictly in reverse order.  
Possibly this might need a different approach. If we can do it easily  
then great (one would normally select a single user and a date range  
to catch the relevant changesets).

An absolute essential is that a revert shows up as a changeset with a  
description that includes the fact that it was a revert and what it  
was reverting and can itself be reverted.

At some point we might need a speed tile redraw to get embarrassing  
stuff out of the tile stack quickly.



Regards,



Peter



> Pieren
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Dave Stubbs]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Pieren wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Dave Stubbs wrote:
>> As far as I know most of the tools used for reverting currently are
>> also public -- the problem being, they're dangerous to use if you
>> don't know what you're doing, not at all user friendly, deliberately
>> hard to use to make sure you do know what you're doing, and not
>> remotely capable of dealing with conflicts.
>>
>> Dave
>
> That's where I disagree. We should stop considering 'revert' as
> 'dangerous to use if you don't know what you're doing'. It is not more
> dangerous as any other edits, it's just a different way to select
> elements and modify them. The only difference is that you refere to a
> particular state of the dataset (changeset) which might be obsolete
> (in which case the 'easy revert' should be aborted) in the same way as
> when two contributors work in parallel in the same area.
> We cannot say in one side "let the crowd create, modify or delete
> elements as easy as possible" and in the other side "make revert hard
> to use".

That's not what I meant at all.

Reverting isn't dangerous, it's the tool that's dangerous. You can
create a very big mess if you don't know what you're doing and you
force it through. As many casual users of bulk uploading tools can
testify -- it really is a good idea to know what you're doing
occasionally.

If the tools are easy to use and make it easy to spot you're about to
do something really stupid then there's no problem. I'm all for easy
revert tools, they just don't exist as yet.


> I'm still in favour of having an "easy revert" as a first attempt on
> the main site and only provide more complexe tools into editors in
> case of conflicts.

When someone writes it I'm sure it'll be great.


> But you will have to explaine how you deal with the
> 145 changesets of RR8 if you have to enter manually each number in
> your editor.

Manually typing numbers sounds like a crappy interface to me, did
someone suggest it?

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Patrick Petschge]

Hi,

> Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on
> all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email,
> so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default.
In short you missed http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html


> This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit
> annoying having to use "Reply to all" then remove everyone except the
> list.
Just because it is a habit doesn't mean it's not a bad habit.


> Also most people don't want the reply sent too them twice as if they
> are posting they are on the list, and hence should receive the answer
> twice.
How do you know? Did you ask them? I _want_ to get direct copies. In case
people don't want to read mails twice they can tell the list "don't send
me a second copy" or tell their mail reader "deduplicate my mail please".


> This might also help reduce the number of questions with out answers,
> when people have forgotten to put the answer on-list for everyone
> benefit.
You can't idiot-proof people...


> If someone want to reply off list then they can change but the default
> should be on-list.
Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without
an annoying reply-to header which was never meant to do want you want it
to do.


So dear list-admins please leave the settings as they are. Thank you.
Patrick "Petschge" Kilian


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Lester Caine]

Peter Childs wrote:
> Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on
> all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email,
> so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default.
> 
> This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit
> annoying having to use "Reply to all" then remove everyone except the
> list.

You are entering 'religious war' areas here Peter ;)
This is one of the few lists I use that still follows the return to
sender rules rather than return to list, so one has to remember 'Reply
All'. And nowadays I then delete all the extra addresses just to be tidy!

People will explain why the current way is 'right' and other lists are
wrong, and to be honest both views ARE equally valid :(

In an ideal world, the email client would actually take care of the
matter and would provided each camp with their own preferred view of
things - but then the programmers there are in one camp or the other ...

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] geolocation for mobile browsers

[John Smith]

2009/9/3 bernhard :


> Are there other mobile browsers with this javascript API?

BlackBerry had a javascript api long before apple

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[OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header

[Peter Childs]

Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on
all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email,
so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default.

This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit
annoying having to use "Reply to all" then remove everyone except the
list.

Also most people don't want the reply sent too them twice as if they
are posting they are on the list, and hence should receive the answer
twice.

This might also help reduce the number of questions with out answers,
when people have forgotten to put the answer on-list for everyone
benefit.

If someone want to reply off list then they can change but the default
should be on-list.

Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Pieren]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Dave Stubbs wrote:
> As far as I know most of the tools used for reverting currently are
> also public -- the problem being, they're dangerous to use if you
> don't know what you're doing, not at all user friendly, deliberately
> hard to use to make sure you do know what you're doing, and not
> remotely capable of dealing with conflicts.
>
> Dave

That's where I disagree. We should stop considering 'revert' as
'dangerous to use if you don't know what you're doing'. It is not more
dangerous as any other edits, it's just a different way to select
elements and modify them. The only difference is that you refere to a
particular state of the dataset (changeset) which might be obsolete
(in which case the 'easy revert' should be aborted) in the same way as
when two contributors work in parallel in the same area.
We cannot say in one side "let the crowd create, modify or delete
elements as easy as possible" and in the other side "make revert hard
to use".
I'm still in favour of having an "easy revert" as a first attempt on
the main site and only provide more complexe tools into editors in
case of conflicts. But you will have to explaine how you deal with the
145 changesets of RR8 if you have to enter manually each number in
your editor.
Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Dave Stubbs]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Peter Körner wrote:
>> I'd like to do a Brainstorming about how a Revert-Tool could look like,
>> that is more open to the Community, can be used without programming
>> knowledge and is able to to reverts fast.
>
> I'm thinking of a process like this:
>
> - Identify the Changeset you'd like to be reverted.
> - Go to  and throw in the Changeset-ID
> -  downloads the Changeset and the current state of all members
> -  shows you a list of all members of the Changeset
>   - highlight conflicting changes (tag- or position-mismatch)
>   - highlight conflicts that could be reverted automatically
>     (e.g. in the malicious changeset highway=secondary was changed
>      to highway=track and on the current node it's highway=secondary
>      again, or the node/way added in the malicious changeset was deleted
>      already)
>   - propose actions on nodes/ways that must be edited by hand (like
>     jsom does when connecting two ways with conflicting tags)
> - when all conflicts are resolved  generates a voting-url
> - post this url to the appropriate mailing-list (global and local) and
>   let the community vote for your revert-proposal
>   - we'll need some kind of authentication here
> - when 100 (20?, 50?, 1000?) people said "yes" to your proposal, the
>   tool applies your revert
>   - if this produces further conflicts the author should be able to
>     correct them (and only them!) without another vote.
> - there should be a history when who reverted what
> - each revert should have an explanation with a minimal length
>   (e.g. 30 words)
>

Assuming you're looking for a tool to actually do reverts, then I'd
suggest a plugin to an editor -- most meaningful reverts are going to
result in a conflict that has to be edited -- you might have to
rebuild unconnected bits of the map by hand if you're reverting a
delete and someone has added something new in the meantime.

After that a revert is just another normal map edit, there's no need
for voting or other such structures. There's no need for limiting
access or anything else. If we have edit wars we deal with the people
involved.

The tools can help by adding changeset tags like
reverted_changeset=12345 as well as the normal comment=xyz and
created_by=xyz. This will serve to easily flag up reverts. Don't try
to force a comment of a certain length -- "reverting vandalism" is
fine -- if you want 30 words i'll just give you "reverting vandalism
blah blah blah blah".

And I'd recommend not overcomplicating -- if you're intending to write
this, start with the simplest thing that will possibly work, and add
features as you go :-)

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Dave Stubbs]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:11 PM, MP wrote:
> On 02/09/2009, Peter Körner  wrote:
>> > I'm against voting. Voting is a way to take responsibility away from the
>>  > individual. I think that in most cases we should strive to have
>>  > individuals responsible for everything (just like with mapping - you
>>  > don't suggest something which the community then votes upon, you just 
>> map).
>>
>> But this could lead to reverting as a extended form of vandalism (which
>>  is much more effective!)
>
> They you can use the tool again and just revert the revert.
>
> Currently, messing things up things is easy, even without any revert
> tool, reverting them (without asking someone with DB access to do the
> dirty job) is not so easy.


Can I just point out that there are so special permissions, no special
DB access, or any other special stuff used to do anything with
reverting.

There was a tool for API 0.5 (written by me) that required DB access
which was used to revert changes made by users involved with copyright
infringement. This tool has become completely redundant since API 0.6
as the information it was using (finding every edit of a user) has
become easily and publicly accessible through the changeset API. Even
that tool just resulted in an osc file uploaded by bulk_upload.pl. The
only reason you need DB access now is if you're trying to find
information on a user with non-public edits, but as there aren't any
new ones of those I think that's a limited problem.

As far as I know most of the tools used for reverting currently are
also public -- the problem being, they're dangerous to use if you
don't know what you're doing, not at all user friendly, deliberately
hard to use to make sure you do know what you're doing, and not
remotely capable of dealing with conflicts.

Dave

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[OSM-talk] geolocation for mobile browsers

[bernhard]

hi all

I think that the

"navigator.geolocation"

is available in iPhone and Android CellPhones.

Are there other mobile browsers with this javascript API?

Bernhard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools

[Peter Körner]

maning sambale schrieb:
> Revert my own and only my own changeset.
Okay.. and how about vandalists?

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools - work for copywriters!

[Peter Körner]

> Making 10 changesets of more than 10 features each over a period of at 
> least 2 weeks without attracting reverts or complaints should be 
> sufficient I would have thought. That would mean that a newbie who gets 
> on with it can be 'established' within 2 weeks. I think that was how 
> long it took me to get rights to upload images to Wikipiedia. Some 
> vandals will slip through, but that is fine - we can deal with them in 
> the usual way.
We'll have to build a simple, calculateble and provable explanation from 
that, that every newbee understands. Also we should create a error-text 
that the tool displays when the conditions are not (yet) matched. This 
text should not demoralize the avarage user and tell him how long it 
will take until he can use this tool and why he can't use it yet. Any 
copywriter out here?

> I think the main message is 'please don't wait for permission to develop 
> this' and get going! I love you practical energy on this. I agree that a 
> web-service would be better that a downloadable tool - I would be much 
> more likely to use a web-service, but any tool is better than no tool.
I can allay your doubts: I'm interested in this tool, too. Not so much 
from the user perspective but more from the programming. I'll start it 
as soon as I can. It would be very helpful if we got consensus about 
what it sould do and how it should be used.

But pssst: Behind the scenes i just started working on the changeset 
parser :)

> What we need now is for people to just get on with it and make tools and 
> try them cautiously on small test edits and then try them on bigger 
> stuff so we are ready for the big nightmare vandalism that could well 
> occur before anyone attempts it.
Before we could start building these tools we should define their use 
clearly. That makes the development phase a whole lot shorter.

Peter

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