Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Simon Poole]

  
  

Go to "Mon profil", then "Mes options" and select "Supprimer l'image
actuelle", then save with "Enregistrer les modifications"

Am 02.12.2013 16:00, schrieb JB:


  Le 30.11.2013 20:24, SomeoneElse a écrit :
  1) On the main
osm.org site, the extra space taken up by the bar at the top and
the huge "welcome" area at the left distracts from the map in a
way that the rectangular left-hand bar didn't - it's easier to
mentally exclude a left-hand bar and concentrate on the
remaining rectangle in a way that it isn't possible to exclude
the welcome box and concentrate on the remaining L-shaped 3/4 of
the screen. 
  I've been using osm.org without being connected to try this for a few days. Try yourself if you don't believe it, the map is simply unusable.
Besides, now that I'm connected, but do not have a picture to illustrate myself in my profile, where/how do I click on « modify »?
  
  JB.


  
  
  
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[SomeoneElse]

  
  
JB wrote:


  Besides, now that I'm connected, but do not have a picture to illustrate myself in my profile, where/how do I click on « modify »?
  
  


It certainly doesn't look like that for me.  Perhaps you need to see
if someone's already logged a trac ticket / github issue this this
problem on your language, browser and OS?

Cheers,

Andy

  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[JB]

Le 30.11.2013 20:24, SomeoneElse a écrit :
1) On the main osm.org site, the extra space taken up by the bar at the top and the huge "welcome" area at the left distracts from the map in a way that the rectangular left-hand bar didn't - it's easier to mentally exclude a left-hand bar and concentrate on the remaining rectangle in a way that it isn't possible to exclude the welcome box and concentrate on the remaining L-shaped 3/4 of the screen. 
I've been using osm.org without being connected to try this for a few days. Try yourself if you don't believe it, the map is simply unusable.Besides, now that I'm connected, but do not have a picture to illustrate myself in my profile, where/how do I click on « modify »?

JB.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Barry Hunter]

On 2 December 2013 13:54, Lester Caine  wrote:
> Barry Hunter wrote:
>>>
>>> >The new setup seems to be saying 'if you are not here to map go away!'
>>> > If
>>> >this is really the case then perhaps we need a NEW site for those of us
>>> > who
>>> >contribute data with a view to actually using it live?
>>
>> http://open.mapquest.co.uk/
>>
>> ? That is a site for "end users" of OSM created maps.
>>
>> In many ways OSM is a data provider, it doesnt have the resources to
>> create website for end users (as such).
>
>
> Now I've now found the 'html' option on the OSM map, and along with the link
> and short link these target the same map. Simply replacing the URL with the
> mapquest one does not provide a working link,

Why should it, they are different sites. MapQuest has their own embed option.

> and in any case the rendering
> of roads in this area is simply wrong ...

Good excuse to badger MapQuest to update their rendering!

If you direct more users at MapQuest, they will have more incentive to
update it :)

>
> If a service is not going to be provided then it should not be prominent on
> the front page?

The feature is to embed the map as seen on the OSM page. Which it does.

You seem to be wanting to use it for a different purpose.


> In any case, the embeded map is provided via OSM and so
> maintaining a compatible rendering in the follow on link is important,

You seem to be giving mixed signals what you expect this 'follow on
link' to be 'for'.

Is it for users to find out more about OSM? For users wanting to get
directions to the location shown on the map?

They are very different use cases.


> switching to one with a different style on another site seems wrong? If we
> were providing these pages ourselves then we would still be using the OSM
> tile server?

As long as adear to the usage Policy, then you could
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy


>  I got around 50% of the way through rendering my own set -
> after 7 days - but the tiles were already well out of date :(

Nobody said it would be easy.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Philip Barnes]

open.mapquest.co.uk only seems to find banks and bars that are mapped as nodes.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Sent from my Nokia N9



On 02/12/2013 13:16 Barry Hunter wrote:

On 1 December 2013 12:37, Lester Caine wrote:


>
> The new setup seems to be saying 'if you are not here to map go away!' If
> this is really the case then perhaps we need a NEW site for those of us who
> contribute data with a view to actually using it live?

http://open.mapquest.co.uk/


? That is a site for "end users" of OSM created maps.



In many ways OSM is a data provider, it doesnt have the resources to
create website for end users (as such).

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Barry Hunter wrote:

>The new setup seems to be saying 'if you are not here to map go away!' If
>this is really the case then perhaps we need a NEW site for those of us who
>contribute data with a view to actually using it live?

http://open.mapquest.co.uk/

? That is a site for "end users" of OSM created maps.

In many ways OSM is a data provider, it doesnt have the resources to
create website for end users (as such).


Now I've now found the 'html' option on the OSM map, and along with the link and 
short link these target the same map. Simply replacing the URL with the mapquest 
one does not provide a working link, and in any case the rendering of roads in 
this area is simply wrong ... and that is the whole reason for using the links 
in contact pages.


If a service is not going to be provided then it should not be prominent on the 
front page? In any case, the embeded map is provided via OSM and so maintaining 
a compatible rendering in the follow on link is important, switching to one with 
a different style on another site seems wrong? If we were providing these pages 
ourselves then we would still be using the OSM tile server? I got around 50% of 
the way through rendering my own set - after 7 days - but the tiles were already 
well out of date :(


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Barry Hunter]

On 1 December 2013 12:37, Lester Caine wrote:

>
> The new setup seems to be saying 'if you are not here to map go away!' If
> this is really the case then perhaps we need a NEW site for those of us who
> contribute data with a view to actually using it live?

http://open.mapquest.co.uk/

? That is a site for "end users" of OSM created maps.


In many ways OSM is a data provider, it doesnt have the resources to
create website for end users (as such).

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Tom Hughes]

On 02/12/13 09:16, Simon Poole wrote:


I believe that is just a result of that the original text (English) only
gets pushed to translatewiki when it has been deployed (without doing
something special which we did for the welcome page a while ago). AFAIK
now it is just a question of translating the new bits and then waiting
for the deployed translations to be updated.


I did attempt to get some translations done - that was the main reason 
for delaying deployment after the merge.


Unfortunately it didn't really work out as the strings weren't pulled to 
TW until Saturday. The first batch of new translations came back this 
morning and are deploying now.


Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Minh Nguyen]

On 00:35 2013-12-02, Christian Quest wrote:

Where have the translations gone ? The welcome, help and about are now
english only ? This is the most critical point in this switch that looks
a bit premature to me.


The OSM website is translated at translatewiki.net. Every time an 
interface message changes, the translations have to be updated or users 
see English. I'm not sure how long it takes for new translations to go live.


At the moment, only one language is completely translated, but many are 
making progress. [1] You can sign up at translatewiki to help keep your 
language updated. The wiki has information about translating other parts 
of the OSMverse. [2]


[1] 


[2] 


Browsing objects gives way too much space for the map, hiding some tag
values.


 and 
probably others.


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Simon Poole]

I believe that is just a result of that the original text (English) only
gets pushed to translatewiki when it has been deployed (without doing
something special which we did for the welcome page a while ago). AFAIK
now it is just a question of translating the new bits and then waiting
for the deployed translations to be updated.

Simon

Am 02.12.2013 09:35, schrieb Christian Quest:
> Where have the translations gone ? The welcome, help and about are now
> english only ? This is the most critical point in this switch that
> looks a bit premature to me.
>
> Browsing objects gives way too much space for the map, hiding some tag
> values.
>
> When checking "show map data", there used to be a list of objects...
> which seems to have gone now.
>
> -- 
> Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
> Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Christian Quest]

Where have the translations gone ? The welcome, help and about are now
english only ? This is the most critical point in this switch that looks a
bit premature to me.

Browsing objects gives way too much space for the map, hiding some tag
values.

When checking "show map data", there used to be a list of objects... which
seems to have gone now.

-- 
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Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Minh Nguyen]

On 18:17 2013-12-01, SomeoneElse wrote:

The changeset close time has a dotted underline and
the mouse pointer changes from a hand to a question mark - I still don't
know what this is supposed to signify.


That's HTML's  tag. It's primarily meant to give title="three-letter acronyms">TLAs handy tooltips -- your browser 
may add a dotted underline and cursor -- but many Web designers use the 
tag for relative times and other pieces of data that humans abbreviate 
through natural language:


http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern
http://html5doctor.com/the-time-element/

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[SomeoneElse]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
This redesign was done by employees of MapBox, and they spent a lot of 
time on it. I'd prefer them to weigh in in this thread themselves 


Thanks Frederik.  I think that it would help if they did; it might help 
to put a human face on some of the design decisions beyond a vague and 
handwavy "fresher look".



There was a presentation at SOTM-US and one at SOTM in Birmingham


I'm guessing that's http://jfire.io/sotm13/#0 ?

If so, that doesn't say anything at all about the usability of the end 
result, or what end-user testing was done.  There are four design goals 
at the front - it would help if someone could explain in what way the 
redesign was intended to achieve those.  The first of these 
("information architecture") seems to be the one that's been missed by 
the widest margin - it simply isn't possible to use the same cues that 
you'd use on normal websites to determine functionality.


Taking just one example, if I go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/ there's 
clear and consistent feedback to the user about what every item on that 
page does.  If I instead go to 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/history , there isn't.  
It's clear that the left-hand column is some sort of list - the colour 
of each section changes from white to cream as you go up and down it.  
Beyond that, who knows? (I've just had to ask about exactly this on 
#osm).  The changeset number (despite it being part of the URL of an 
individual changeset) can't be right-clicked upon but the changeset name 
can, although you don't know this until you've moved the mouse over it - 
there's not the visual separation of links and non-links such as occurs 
on the BBC site.  The changeset close time has a dotted underline and 
the mouse pointer changes from a hand to a question mark - I still don't 
know what this is supposed to signify.


If I'm asking this how's someone with less experience of using web 
browsers (but lots of experience of their local area which we really 
want to capture) supposed to manage?


Something that has got forgotten both in some of the negative responses 
to the new web site design (and some of the negative responses to that 
criticism) is that we're all on the same side here.  No-one's going to 
disagree with goals 2 and 3 of the presentation linked above - but I'm 
concerned that we absolutely won't be "strengthening the community" if 
no-one can figure out how the OSM website works.


Cheers,

Andy

PS:  The things that are genuinely bugs I'm less worried about - they're 
getting fixed, and fast.  Something very similar to 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/575 was a 
problem with the old web site too around 18 months ago, but this 
particular problem with the new one's been fixed within a day.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 30.11.2013 20:57, SomeoneElse wrote:
> Understood (hence my Henry Ford quote) but on that general point - can
> anyone explain in what way the new site is better than the old one?  

Most people who reacted favourably to the new design said things like it
looked "fresher" or "more modern".

Most people complaining were essentially those who had gotten used to
the old web page and its quirks and therefore any change would require
them to change too.

> I'd
> love to know what I can do with the new site or could do easier that I
> couldn't do before.

I think that anyone who was already using the old site regularly wasn't
really the target group of this redesign because they would all have
gotten used to how things were.

This redesign was done by employees of MapBox, and they spent a lot of
time on it. I'd prefer them to weigh in in this thread themselves but
they may not be reading osm-talk so here's a quick run-down: There was a
presentation at SOTM-US and one at SOTM in Birmingham, and there were
numerous discussions online (in github tickets and on mailing lists). A
play version of the redesigned UI was available for months, and the talk
list was informed two months ago. Everyone had the chance to chime in,
and many did; everyone was heard but of course not everyone's wishes
could be catered to.

The resonance to the redesign presentations was positive on average, but
apart from the "fresher look" which is a matter of taste, there were
also tangible improvements behind then scenes. For example, the new
design is proven to react better to different screen sizes (especially
smaller screens), and the code also allowed the closing of a great many
bugs that were filed against the old web page.

So. I'm saying this was a long process, which, albeit driven by a small
group of people, got buy in from enough people (including devs and
admins) to go ahead. This is how it works.

Is it objectively "better" than the old site? I don't know and it is not
really relevant. Enough people *found* it to be better. If YOU (meaning
not you, SomeoneElse, but you, the reader) want to try your hand at a
complete redesign or at micro-redesigning a small aspect of this, our
new web site, then go ahead - your changes will be subjected to the very
same process that the changes submitted by the MapBox team were, and if
they are considered to have merit then they will be on the web page in
due course.

In fact, YOU (again, you the reader) or a team from your company or you
and a group of friends could have done the exact same thing that MapBox
has - make a plan, publicize and discuss, implement, submit for review,
make fixes, and so on, and then after many man-months of work it would
be YOUR design having gone up the other day (and it would be YOU being
at the receiving end of all kinds of criticism because of course no
design will please all).

This redesign proves that it is possible to make changes to the web
site, and I hope that it will encourage a broader spectrum of
contributors to participate in defining how we present ourselves. The
OSM web site is not some big untouchable thing that is somehow exempt
from the way OSM works otherwise.

If you don't like something, you *can* open a ticket and hope for
someone to fix it. But now as always - if you make a pull request (which
is newspeak for opening a ticket with a patch attached) then your
contribution is much more likely to actually make a difference.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Ed Loach wrote:

Lester:


The about page is VERY short on help to get to other material (

but I

do not
object to advertising sponsors on that page ), and I probably need

to

try the
site as a cold user to se if registering a new account is any more
helpful, but
trying to establish what is needed to help WITHOUT registering is

not

looking
good. It's not the interface itself that is the problem, but

simply what

material is displayed in those first couple of clicks! Perhaps all

I am

asking
for is a simple link to 'other services' in that welcome box which

take

you to a
wiki for accessing routers and other useful tools?


Perhaps click "Help" rather than "About" - that has the simple links
to help and the wiki.


Click on 'Help' you THEN have to decide what will be more helpful. The 'help 
list' is not the best choise but it IS presented first. Metion was made of 
'Getting started', and to be honest THAT is something that is currently missing? 
After that, the wiki should be listed next. But finding the HELP button when the 
'Learn More' button is presented in the welcome box? I find nothing in the About 
box that helps me to 'Learn More' ... Naming the button 'About OSM' would at 
least hint that something else may be more appropriate if you ACTUALLY want to 
learn more about contributing or using OSM? Having selected 'Learn More' one is 
in something of a dead end? It's not clear then WHERE you go?



I am in two minds about routing on the main OSM website. Yes, it can
be done, and it can be useful for a mapper to check connectivity of
what has been mapped, and whether turn restrictions work, etc, but
then you need to consider supporting for every transport mode (or
just pick "car" to start with and wait for all the complaints from
cyclists, pedestrians and lorry drivers moaning that the new routing
feature is useless for them...) But there are other sites already
which use OSM for routing and it might be better to use whichever of
those best suits your preferred use case.


This is perhaps another case where a separate site IS needed for those of us 
actually using OSM as a generic replacement for Google? On some of my newer 
'contact' pages I have added a 'Get Directions' button in addition to the 'View 
Larger Map' ... and that is where the previous style change still causes some 
confusion! The Embeded map still has the old navigation style on the left as 
does the router I'm going to, but the OSM map changed to the right. I would use 
the Router as the large map, but I actually want to PROMOTE OSM which all this 
is currently about. None of the current router options are as reliable as the 
other on-line options, (and that is a separate problem ...) also you need to 
select one more suited to your country, which comes back to my appeal for a more 
'locally focused' support path. Basically there is nothing I would recomend as a 
global routing option anyway? So no obvious candidate for a world wide link?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Ed Loach]

Lester:

> The about page is VERY short on help to get to other material (
but I
> do not
> object to advertising sponsors on that page ), and I probably need
to
> try the
> site as a cold user to se if registering a new account is any more
> helpful, but
> trying to establish what is needed to help WITHOUT registering is
not
> looking
> good. It's not the interface itself that is the problem, but
simply what
> material is displayed in those first couple of clicks! Perhaps all
I am
> asking
> for is a simple link to 'other services' in that welcome box which
take
> you to a
> wiki for accessing routers and other useful tools?

Perhaps click "Help" rather than "About" - that has the simple links
to help and the wiki.

I am in two minds about routing on the main OSM website. Yes, it can
be done, and it can be useful for a mapper to check connectivity of
what has been mapped, and whether turn restrictions work, etc, but
then you need to consider supporting for every transport mode (or
just pick "car" to start with and wait for all the complaints from
cyclists, pedestrians and lorry drivers moaning that the new routing
feature is useless for them...) But there are other sites already
which use OSM for routing and it might be better to use whichever of
those best suits your preferred use case.

Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Shaun McDonald wrote:

osm.org is aimed at mappers and people mapping, rather than as a general 
purpose go to site for navigation.


I'm not arguing otherwise, but at present even FINDING another site that CAN be 
used for routing from the new front page is a nightmare. Alright the old page 
was messy, but there were at least obvious links to get to other sites. The new 
setup seems to be saying 'if you are not here to map go away!' If this is really 
the case then perhaps we need a NEW site for those of us who contribute data 
with a view to actually using it live?


The about page is VERY short on help to get to other material ( but I do not 
object to advertising sponsors on that page ), and I probably need to try the 
site as a cold user to se if registering a new account is any more helpful, but 
trying to establish what is needed to help WITHOUT registering is not looking 
good. It's not the interface itself that is the problem, but simply what 
material is displayed in those first couple of clicks! Perhaps all I am asking 
for is a simple link to 'other services' in that welcome box which take you to a 
wiki for accessing routers and other useful tools?


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Ed Loach]

Martin wrote:

> the wiki was linked directly. Our wiki is the principal (loosely)
> structured key about osm, created by the community. Its starting
> page is a good entry if you want to get serious, and I am sure
also
> longtime contributors go there rather often.

I think it is better on the Help screen, as that also shows what
other help is available. It starts with help on how to use the site
you are on, continues with where to get help about using OSM, and
builds up to the wiki where you can find detailed documentation - a
somewhat logical progression. If more help becomes available it
perhaps can also be listed there (I don't know whether for example
any of IRC, Forums, Mailing Lists deserve a mention there, or
whether leaving them listed on the wiki is sufficient for now).

> I'm used to type osm.org and click on the wiki link, now I'll have
to
> type wiki.osm.org or click, wait and click again ;-)

Ah, well my browser supports bookmarks (in fact, I'm on latest Opera
so there are dashboard groups). So launch browser, click OSM group,
click Wiki - quicker than typing osm.org even...

Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Shaun McDonald]

On 1 Dec 2013, at 10:25, Lester Caine  wrote:

> Paul Norman wrote:
>>> I know that there is a lot of support for NOT providing services
>> I'd say there's a wide desire for offering services like OWL and routing
>> on OSM.org. Of course, these take development hours, time, and money, so
>> a wide desire doesn't translate into actually adding the services.
>> 
>>> >but until a suitable replacement can be created for the many thousands of
>> us
>>> >using embeded maps, maintaining usable operation is important. The
>>> >current changes are not compatible with using the embed function so THAT
>>> >should have beendepricated first and time provided for us to make
>>> >changes to existing usage!
>> I looked at the embed HTML generated, and I don't see what doesn't work.
>> All the links are valid, and the page that you land (the front page)
>> seems more likely to covert the visitor to a mapper, because it now
>> gives some text to explain where they've ended up.
> 
> Some how I don't think we are looking at the new front page the same way ...
> 
> It's the very fact that it IS designed to make 'convert to mapper' the 
> REQUIRED result that is the problem. What is preferable is a half way house 
> that provides the information ON THE ONE PAGE that can be used as the 'Larger 
> View' from the embeded versions. I don't see why simply restoring the old 
> front page for that purpose should be any additional work? The map used on 
> that page can be the new view and switches to the mapping front end when 
> someone has time to follow that path. I can see a compromise that gives an 
> information panel to the right in place of the welcome box but supporting 
> THAT needs work, where a simple 'old.osm' url would be a lot less work?
> 
> It sounds as if I'm going to have to create my own site to support this ... 
> While I can see that on the whole the new front end has a number of nice 
> features it IS too targeted at a different goal, and as an information page 
> for OSM it fails miserably so something better is needed! The wiki front page 
> is a bit of a mess, but is much more useful now, but the fundamental problem 
> of taking new mappers to LOCAL support is even less well supported now? It 
> seems that everybody has to work in English if they want to use OSM :(

You could implement something similar to what Leaflet Maps Marker WordPress 
plugin has done and provide a full screen alternative.
 http://www.mapsmarker.com/ 

osm.org is aimed at mappers and people mapping, rather than as a general 
purpose go to site for navigation.

Shaun

> 
> And I still need to find out where the 'export' is intended to go? Is that 
> were we should be able to create embeded frames or somewhere else? Share does 
> not provide the material and hacking the code manually is not something 
> novice users can do easily. In the past my clients could play with this, but 
> at present there is nothing suitable.
> 
> -- 
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
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> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Simon Poole]

Am 01.12.2013 11:25, schrieb Lester Caine:
> ...
> And I still need to find out where the 'export' is intended to go? Is
> that were we should be able to create embeded frames or somewhere
> else? Share does not provide the material and hacking the code
> manually is not something novice users can do easily. In the past my
> clients could play with this, but at present there is nothing suitable.
>
Lester

I think you may be simply overseeing something or you are not clearly
stating what functionality you are missing that previously existed. To
embed a map with link to the main website, no more than a cut and paste
of the generated HTML code in the "Share" side bar is needed. If you
need something fancier than the one marker you can add there, you are
likely better off with umap.openstreetmap.fr or other umap instances.

A user hitting the "larger map" link will get the map with the "welcome
box" showing with a prominent link to the "Learn more" page which does a
far better job of laying out what the project is about than anything we
had available within one click on the old site. If you think that there
is important information missing for data  consumers then please make a
suggestion (I suppose I could argue that the "Open Data" paragraph is
missing a sentence about and a link to actually obtaining the data).

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Simon Poole]

My 2 cents: the deployment yesterday was the final step to making the
design and the user interaction consistent over the the whole site
(forgetting about the handful of real usability issues that should be
addressed). The baby steps that had been made over the last year or so
had led to a situation where the site was a hodge pod of different stuff
and very inconsistent UI. Not to mention that due to the cruft that had
gathered over the years and that we were not using the available screen
real estate very well at all.

What I would hope now that the UI has been cleaned up that we can
improve the messaging about what we are and what we do, and keep
everybody abreast of new developments in the project now that there is
more space available, roughly along the lines the original design work
from Saman mapped out.

Simon

Am 30.11.2013 20:57, schrieb SomeoneElse:
> Simon Poole wrote:
>>
>> As to general complaints, I don't see any way forward without making
>> somebody unhappy
>
> Understood (hence my Henry Ford quote) but on that general point - can
> anyone explain in what way the new site is better than the old one? 
> I'd love to know what I can do with the new site or could do easier
> that I couldn't do before.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Paul Norman wrote:

I know that there is a lot of support for NOT providing services

I'd say there's a wide desire for offering services like OWL and routing
on OSM.org. Of course, these take development hours, time, and money, so
a wide desire doesn't translate into actually adding the services.


>but until a suitable replacement can be created for the many thousands of

us

>using embeded maps, maintaining usable operation is important. The
>current changes are not compatible with using the embed function so THAT
>should have beendepricated first and time provided for us to make
>changes to existing usage!

I looked at the embed HTML generated, and I don't see what doesn't work.
All the links are valid, and the page that you land (the front page)
seems more likely to covert the visitor to a mapper, because it now
gives some text to explain where they've ended up.


Some how I don't think we are looking at the new front page the same way ...

It's the very fact that it IS designed to make 'convert to mapper' the REQUIRED 
result that is the problem. What is preferable is a half way house that provides 
the information ON THE ONE PAGE that can be used as the 'Larger View' from the 
embeded versions. I don't see why simply restoring the old front page for that 
purpose should be any additional work? The map used on that page can be the new 
view and switches to the mapping front end when someone has time to follow that 
path. I can see a compromise that gives an information panel to the right in 
place of the welcome box but supporting THAT needs work, where a simple 
'old.osm' url would be a lot less work?


It sounds as if I'm going to have to create my own site to support this ... 
While I can see that on the whole the new front end has a number of nice 
features it IS too targeted at a different goal, and as an information page for 
OSM it fails miserably so something better is needed! The wiki front page is a 
bit of a mess, but is much more useful now, but the fundamental problem of 
taking new mappers to LOCAL support is even less well supported now? It seems 
that everybody has to work in English if they want to use OSM :(


And I still need to find out where the 'export' is intended to go? Is that were 
we should be able to create embeded frames or somewhere else? Share does not 
provide the material and hacking the code manually is not something novice users 
can do easily. In the past my clients could play with this, but at present there 
is nothing suitable.


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Paul Norman]

> From: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk]
> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:51 PM
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page
> 
> Which is why I simply ask that the old layout is made available again as
that 
> only requires access to pages that already exist. 

There would be time costs in supporting the code for what are essentially 
duplicates of other pages. You have to test every change against both sets 
of pages, and then there is the distinct code that appears in one but not 
the other.

> What is currently being offered is probably acceptable to users who are 
> there with a view to contributing, and then requiring registration makes 
> sense, but for the vast majority of visitors brought here by USERS of 
> the data it's just not right. 

In EWG I brought up the opinion that a UI change should be evaluated on a) 
how well it converts visitors to mappers b) how well it retains 
visitors. Of course these are hard to measure, and it's not like the old 
site was rigerously evaluated against these criteria. 

The new site seems to be much better at directing visitors into becoming 
mappers. I have also shown it to inexperienced and new mappers and they 
found it an improvement. 

> I know that there is a lot of support for NOT providing services

I'd say there's a wide desire for offering services like OWL and routing 
on OSM.org. Of course, these take development hours, time, and money, so 
a wide desire doesn't translate into actually adding the services. 

> but until a suitable replacement can be created for the many thousands of
us 
> using embeded maps, maintaining usable operation is important. The 
> current changes are not compatible with using the embed function so THAT 
> should have beendepricated first and time provided for us to make 
> changes to existing usage! 

I looked at the embed HTML generated, and I don't see what doesn't work. 
All the links are valid, and the page that you land (the front page) 
seems more likely to covert the visitor to a mapper, because it now 
gives some text to explain where they've ended up.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Simon Poole wrote:

Share - HTML ?

Am 30.11.2013 23:02, schrieb Lester Caine:

Lester Caine wrote:

Which is why I simply ask that the old layout is made available again as that
only requires access to pages that already exist.


Silly question ... where has the 'embed' option gone?


Tool for creating script for
http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk/wiki/contact embedded map ...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Simon Poole]

Share - HTML ?

Am 30.11.2013 23:02, schrieb Lester Caine:

Lester Caine wrote:
Which is why I simply ask that the old layout is made available again 
as that

only requires access to pages that already exist.


Silly question ... where has the 'embed' option gone?




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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Lester Caine wrote:

Which is why I simply ask that the old layout is made available again as that
only requires access to pages that already exist.


Silly question ... where has the 'embed' option gone?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Simon Poole wrote:

I really fail to see what you believe was better about the old layout,
maybe if you could give an example?


Just 5 examples to start with:


I was not soliciting general input, just specific to Lesters complaint (which
was not about functional issues for mappers).

As to general complaints, I don't see any way forward without making somebody
unhappy, we've already sunk multiple man weeks in to one re-design that didn't
happen, no need to repeat that again. Functional defects that are not simply a
matter of taste obviously should be documented and reported in an issue.


Which is why I simply ask that the old layout is made available again as that 
only requires access to pages that already exist. What is currently being 
offered is probably acceptable to users who are there with a view to 
contributing, and then requiring registration makes sense, but for the vast 
majority of visitors brought here by USERS of the data it's just not right.


I know that there is a lot of support for NOT providing services, but until a 
suitable replacement can be created for the many thousands of us using embeded 
maps, maintaining usable operation is important. The current changes are not 
compatible with using the embed function so THAT should have beendepricated 
first and time provided for us to make changes to existing usage!


--
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-11-30 20:24, SomeoneElse wrote:


I understand the reticence on behalf of many people to criticise
suggestions from the (not being directly paid to do so) developers of
the osm.org site.  As a software developer myself, being asked "how am
I supposed to use _that_?" and being told "that's rubbish, please
start again!" aren't nice, but sometimes are necessary.  I'm also
aware of the alleged Henry Ford quote "If I had asked people what they
wanted, they would have said faster horses" - people are naturally
resistant to change, failing to appreciate changes that can allow
better things to happen in the future.  However in this case I think
the new design has genuinely got it wrong and needs a serious rethink
- what should be the site design that casual visitors see?  What about
regular mappers who just want to get at the "boring numbers"?


What comes to my mind is "If it ain't broken, don't fix it".
I fail to see the rationale behind changing the looks of the osm map 
page again.

What was wrong with it that needed to be fixed with this update?
It all seems so "Windows 8"ish to me (and while taste is personal, I do 
want to say that it is not a look that I like, and I hate that so many 
website do seem to adopt this style, like Microsoft is some kind of 
style guru).


I hadn't even noticed that the pages for individual nodes, ways and 
relations had changed. I immediately see one big problem with the "boxes 
in a small left column approach": what when there is a lot of data in 
the value? Have a look at 
 and notice how the 
tiger:source and tiger:tlid values get obscured by the map.


Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[SomeoneElse]

Simon Poole wrote:


As to general complaints, I don't see any way forward without making 
somebody unhappy


Understood (hence my Henry Ford quote) but on that general point - can 
anyone explain in what way the new site is better than the old one?  I'd 
love to know what I can do with the new site or could do easier that I 
couldn't do before.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Simon Poole]

Am 30.11.2013 20:24, schrieb SomeoneElse:

Simon Poole wrote:


I really fail to see what you believe was better about the old layout,
maybe if you could give an example?


Just 5 examples to start with:


I was not soliciting general input, just specific to Lesters complaint 
(which was not about functional issues for mappers).


As to general complaints, I don't see any way forward without making 
somebody unhappy, we've already sunk multiple man weeks in to one 
re-design that didn't happen, no need to repeat that again. Functional 
defects that are not simply a matter of taste obviously should be 
documented and reported in an issue.


Simon

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[SomeoneElse]

Simon Poole wrote:


I really fail to see what you believe was better about the old layout,
maybe if you could give an example?


Just 5 examples to start with:

1) On the main osm.org site, the extra space taken up by the bar at the 
top and the huge "welcome" area at the left distracts from the map in a 
way that the rectangular left-hand bar didn't - it's easier to mentally 
exclude a left-hand bar and concentrate on the remaining rectangle in a 
way that it isn't possible to exclude the welcome box and concentrate on 
the remaining L-shaped 3/4 of the screen.


2) Browse pages are significantly less functional than previously. If I 
go to "http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/404079"; I see the 
tags on the relation, but none of the member ways unless I scroll the 
left-hand area down.  Clearly this screen was designed by people who 
never use browse pages (something borne out to some extent by the 
comments on the pull request).  On browse pages, the picture really 
isn't important to users; it's the "boring numbers" (to echo a comment 
on the pull request) that are.


3) That example browse page has ways descending higgledy-piggledy down 
the screen (The word "way" for ways that have a pictorial representation 
has that pictorial representation to the left; it does not line up above 
the word "way" for other ways).


4) The "view" tab seems to have disappeared.  That means if something 
has been typed in the address bar and I zoom in on something else 
interest I can't then press "view" to get a link to the current map on 
screen.


5) If I navigate to an area where data can't be displayed because 
"Unable to load map data, too large of an area (333.48). Area must be 
smaller than 0.25 square degrees.", I can't untick the data layer 
because it's greyed out.  Even if I close the data browser at the left 
and the layer switcher the "Unable to load map data..." message 
remains.  Presumably I have to zoom in, open the layer switcher, untick 
the box, and then zoom out again?


Generally speaking, the whole thing looks a bit "Fisher Price" - 
usability has been sacrificed in favour of superficial prettiness. 
However, I fail to see who the new design is "for".  It's clearly not 
for casual users (they'll get driven away by the ridiculous "welcome" 
box and the new "about" screen).  It's not for mappers (the browse pages 
and changeset feeds are siginficantly less functional).  Maybe it's 
designed to do what many people (myself included) have often said to new 
users on the mailing lists and the help site - remember that "osm.org" 
is just one example map made with OSM data among many.  If you want a 
cycle map with a sensibly-sized layer switcher and a working permalink 
function, use http://www.opencyclemap.org/ instead!


I understand the reticence on behalf of many people to criticise 
suggestions from the (not being directly paid to do so) developers of 
the osm.org site.  As a software developer myself, being asked "how am I 
supposed to use _that_?" and being told "that's rubbish, please start 
again!" aren't nice, but sometimes are necessary.  I'm also aware of the 
alleged Henry Ford quote "If I had asked people what they wanted, they 
would have said faster horses" - people are naturally resistant to 
change, failing to appreciate changes that can allow better things to 
happen in the future.  However in this case I think the new design has 
genuinely got it wrong and needs a serious rethink - what should be the 
site design that casual visitors see?  What about regular mappers who 
just want to get at the "boring numbers"?


Cheers,

Andy

PS:  An obvious response to the above is "well what do _you_ think the 
front page of osm.org should look like?".  My response is simple - 
http://openstreetmap.de/. That, and the associated 
http://openstreetmap.de/karte.html do a far better job of explaining OSM 
and the community than the main site currently (and have done for some 
time).



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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[James Mast]

> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 18:08:29 +
> From: t...@compton.nu
> To: rickmastfa...@hotmail.com; talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: Welcome box on the new map page
> 
> On 30/11/13 17:54, James Mast wrote:
> 
> > For instance, this url [1] used to create a feed for the for following
> > area -80.54,40.358,-79.526,40.779 and let me know if there were any
> > changesets that in that bounding box.  Now, all I get are the last 20
> > changeset in all of OSM!!!  That isn't good at all if you're trying to
> > keep a watch on your home area for changes!!  There should have been a
> > built in feed redirection from the old style here to the new style
> > instead being broken the first time a user used the old style.
> >
> > And when I try to access the new history menu [2] and pull the RSS FEED
> > from the site, Firefox's build in "Subscribe" feature gives me this feed
> > URL [3].  The OSM site should be giving the user a "valid" feed url for
> > the area you're viewing, not just the base feed.
> >
> > Thankfully, I've figured out what the new feed link is for my watch area
> > manually and updated it in my RSS feed reader [4].
> 
> Well [1] should be redirecting to [4] and if it doesn't then that is a 
> bug that should be reported.
> 
> 
> Tom
> 
> -- 
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/

Tom, the [1] > [4] isn't redirecting for sure.  Where do you want me to file 
the bug? On Trac or on Github?  If Github, do you mind doing the reporting, I 
don't feel like creating an account there at this time.

-James
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Simon Poole wrote:

Lester

Isn't
a) the welcome box
and
b) the Learn more/About page
a -lot- better on explaining what OSM is about than anything you could
find within one click (if at all) on the old site?

I really fail to see what you believe was better about the old layout,
maybe if you could give an example?


If you simply remove the welcome box, then the page looks very much as if one is 
already logged into something? Most of the dropdowns make no sense UNTIL one has 
an account and are logged in? What is 'export' intended to do? I just get a 
white screen when I click the button.


The 'about' page seems like a waste of space? The fact that 75% of my screen is 
grey was the first put off, but I could not find links that took me to anything 
usable from that page. It NEEDS to take you on to somewhere that is a little 
more useful? Also the help button is equally obscure? The help list is not the 
easiest to understand, only wiki gives a feeling of something helpful, which is 
why I've defaulted links to that rather than the map.


The 'improved' page is ideal as a general interface to editing the map, but what 
is needed is a 'community' page - which the old page provided! - at least there 
was some direction to other areas rather than having to search for any usable 
links! While the old setup was messy, it did it's job reasonably well, and we 
STILL need that type of page, with improvements which the new setup totally 
ignores! We need links to LOCAL community pages and LOCAL support and that is 
what the 'about' box should be doing at the very least!


At least the old page was 'functional' even if it was not 'elegant' ... looking 
at the way 'Google maps' work, bringing back a right hand area which can be 
hidden is probably what is required but what is currently provided is not doing 
the job as far as I am concerned. What we have now is not usable as advertsing 
for OSM, which is what all the 'View larger map' links are designed to access?



Am 30.11.2013 15:41, schrieb Lester Caine:

Rob Nickerson wrote:

Hi Lester,

If you are after a full screen map for your website, it is very easy
to create
one with a simple html page that links to Leaflet (the tool for
providing pan
and zoom, etc) and the tiles server at OSM. I've attached something I
was able
to get up and running quite quickly. My web developer skills are near
zero :-)


You are missing the point Rob ...

People are used to clicking on 'View larger map' and getting to Google
Maps. The OLD website while not the prettiest was more in the style of
what people are used to getting. I want to promote OSM and so I need
something that is on the OSM side that is uasable. I've just switched
all of the promotional links from openstreetmap.org to
wiki.openstreetmap.org as THAT is a lot more informative than where
people are ending currently!

The new front end has a place, but THAT is probably at
map.openstreetmap.org rather than the main front page. Even if I was
seaching for OSM cold I think I'd feel 'What the f**k' when confronted
simply with a map and a few strange links. Being forced to log in just
to get to something usable information wise is just not right. None of
the first clicks give any sensible support for a new user even if they
ARE looking for contributing.

If OSM is not going to provide a usable set of pages, then I will roll
my own. I do already have that running, but it's OSM's site that needs
to be linked to directly to promote it!


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 30/nov/2013 um 16:51 schrieb Simon Poole :
> 
> I really fail to see what you believe was better about the old layout,
> maybe if you could give an example?


the wiki was linked directly. Our wiki is the principal (loosely) structured 
key about osm, created by the community. Its starting page is a good entry if 
you want to get serious, and I am sure also longtime contributors go there 
rather often. 

I'm used to type osm.org and click on the wiki link, now I'll have to type 
wiki.osm.org or click, wait and click again ;-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Tom Hughes]

On 30/11/13 17:54, James Mast wrote:


For instance, this url [1] used to create a feed for the for following
area -80.54,40.358,-79.526,40.779 and let me know if there were any
changesets that in that bounding box.  Now, all I get are the last 20
changeset in all of OSM!!!  That isn't good at all if you're trying to
keep a watch on your home area for changes!!  There should have been a
built in feed redirection from the old style here to the new style
instead being broken the first time a user used the old style.

And when I try to access the new history menu [2] and pull the RSS FEED
from the site, Firefox's build in "Subscribe" feature gives me this feed
URL [3].  The OSM site should be giving the user a "valid" feed url for
the area you're viewing, not just the base feed.

Thankfully, I've figured out what the new feed link is for my watch area
manually and updated it in my RSS feed reader [4].


Well [1] should be redirecting to [4] and if it doesn't then that is a 
bug that should be reported.


There are some issues with the feed discovery in Firefox, mostly because 
Firefox seems to be buggy and not cope very well with the discovery URLs 
being updated on the fly.


Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[James Mast]

Well, I do know with the new map page change, all the "changeset" search feeds 
are now completely broken.

For instance, this url [1] used to create a feed for the for following area 
-80.54,40.358,-79.526,40.779 and let me know if there were any changesets that 
in that bounding box.  Now, all I get are the last 20 changeset in all of 
OSM!!!  That isn't good at all if you're trying to keep a watch on your home 
area for changes!!  There should have been a built in feed redirection from the 
old style here to the new style instead being broken the first time a user used 
the old style.

And when I try to access the new history menu [2] and pull the RSS FEED from 
the site, Firefox's build in "Subscribe" feature gives me this feed URL [3].  
The OSM site should be giving the user a "valid" feed url for the area you're 
viewing, not just the base feed.

Thankfully, I've figured out what the new feed link is for my watch area 
manually and updated it in my RSS feed reader [4].

Still, there needs to be some tweaks to the history part of the new design.

-James


[1] - 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changesets/feed?bbox=-80.54%2C40.358%2C-79.526%2C40.779
[2] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=10/40.4433/-79.6893&layers=N
[3] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/history/feed
[4] - 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/history/feed?bbox=-80.54%2C40.358%2C-79.526%2C40.779
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[malenki]

On  30.11.2013 14:03, Maarten Deen wrote:
>
> So yes: this is a bad decision and I can only ask to make something
> that you can close this box ASAP.

+1



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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Michael Kugelmann]

Am 30.11.2013 16:02, schrieb Frederik Ramm:

Anyway, I think nobody will be hurt if we have a little [X] button in
the top right corner of that welcome message, which then sets a cookie
and kills the message. I'm sure someone who is bothered enough will
submit a pull request for that.

+1000
And please remember this setting so that a user doesn't have to remove 
this somehow annoying window once and once again.



Best regards,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Simon Poole]

Lester

Isn't
a) the welcome box
and
b) the Learn more/About page
a -lot- better on explaining what OSM is about than anything you could
find within one click (if at all) on the old site?

I really fail to see what you believe was better about the old layout,
maybe if you could give an example?

Simon

Am 30.11.2013 15:41, schrieb Lester Caine:
> Rob Nickerson wrote:
>> Hi Lester,
>>
>> If you are after a full screen map for your website, it is very easy
>> to create
>> one with a simple html page that links to Leaflet (the tool for
>> providing pan
>> and zoom, etc) and the tiles server at OSM. I've attached something I
>> was able
>> to get up and running quite quickly. My web developer skills are near
>> zero :-)
>
> You are missing the point Rob ...
>
> People are used to clicking on 'View larger map' and getting to Google
> Maps. The OLD website while not the prettiest was more in the style of
> what people are used to getting. I want to promote OSM and so I need
> something that is on the OSM side that is uasable. I've just switched
> all of the promotional links from openstreetmap.org to
> wiki.openstreetmap.org as THAT is a lot more informative than where
> people are ending currently!
>
> The new front end has a place, but THAT is probably at
> map.openstreetmap.org rather than the main front page. Even if I was
> seaching for OSM cold I think I'd feel 'What the f**k' when confronted
> simply with a map and a few strange links. Being forced to log in just
> to get to something usable information wise is just not right. None of
> the first clicks give any sensible support for a new user even if they
> ARE looking for contributing.
>
> If OSM is not going to provide a usable set of pages, then I will roll
> my own. I do already have that running, but it's OSM's site that needs
> to be linked to directly to promote it!
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11/30/2013 02:03 PM, Maarten Deen wrote:
> Yeah. This is a bad decision. That means that non-logged in users (which
> is any user that does not have an account, and that would be the
> majority of the users of the map page, if it is successful) will be
> bothered by this box all the time.
> I do have an account but I am not logged in most of the time. 

Same here. Then again, the total space taken up by the box is less than
the total space taken up by the permanently-visible sidebar before so
even if your use case is "I want to see as much of the map as possible"
the new layout should be better for you?

Anyway, I think nobody will be hurt if we have a little [X] button in
the top right corner of that welcome message, which then sets a cookie
and kills the message. I'm sure someone who is bothered enough will
submit a pull request for that.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Rob Nickerson wrote:

Hi Lester,

If you are after a full screen map for your website, it is very easy to create
one with a simple html page that links to Leaflet (the tool for providing pan
and zoom, etc) and the tiles server at OSM. I've attached something I was able
to get up and running quite quickly. My web developer skills are near zero :-)


You are missing the point Rob ...

People are used to clicking on 'View larger map' and getting to Google Maps. The 
OLD website while not the prettiest was more in the style of what people are 
used to getting. I want to promote OSM and so I need something that is on the 
OSM side that is uasable. I've just switched all of the promotional links from 
openstreetmap.org to wiki.openstreetmap.org as THAT is a lot more informative 
than where people are ending currently!


The new front end has a place, but THAT is probably at map.openstreetmap.org 
rather than the main front page. Even if I was seaching for OSM cold I think I'd 
feel 'What the f**k' when confronted simply with a map and a few strange links. 
Being forced to log in just to get to something usable information wise is just 
not right. None of the first clicks give any sensible support for a new user 
even if they ARE looking for contributing.


If OSM is not going to provide a usable set of pages, then I will roll my own. I 
do already have that running, but it's OSM's site that needs to be linked to 
directly to promote it!


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi Lester,

If you are after a full screen map for your website, it is very easy to
create one with a simple html page that links to Leaflet (the tool for
providing pan and zoom, etc) and the tiles server at OSM. I've attached
something I was able to get up and running quite quickly. My web developer
skills are near zero :-)

Best
Rob
Title: OpenStreetMap - Mapnik




	
	


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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Lester Caine wrote:

This new front page simply does not work on many levels and I hope I'm not the
only person who thinks that?


No this is getting even more iritating ...
Can someone with the capability to sort out DNS PLEASE create 
old.openstreetmap.org with a link to the old front page. Something is needed to 
replace the current 'View larger map' and at least that while wasting time 
having to go around and update every link would give something a lot more usable!


(And the 'about' page is even more confusing despite the fact I know what OSM 
is)

--
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Lester Caine wrote:

I appreciate that this may not be what you wanted to hear, but as with any big
change, there is likely to be a few teething issues.


Unfortunatly this has now broken many inter site links so personally I'm looking
for a route to retore a more usable interface for those of us who USE the
website as a tool for USERS who have no need to even think about opening an
account !!!

We do normally live in a democracy ... some one person enforcing their view is
not acceptable and this IS now a major hassle for many of my own site links ...
when I select 'view larger map' I expect to get to a larger map not a sales site
:( There SHOULD be something we can add to all those legacy links to make the
site acceptable!


I've just realised exactly why I have a problem with this ...
The old layout was perfect for use as a basis for a 'larger map' when linked to 
from all of the embedded maps ... it WAS obviously a website for promoting OSM, 
and had obvious links to do other things rather than simply viewing a 'larger 
map'. CURRENTLY one is presented with what looks like something that one should 
NOT have reached ... for general users! ... It LOOKS like you are logged into 
something and it's not obvious what to do next !!! You are there simply because 
you wanted a larger map so 'learn more' and 'start mapping' simply don't apply.


This new front page simply does not work on many levels and I hope I'm not the 
only person who thinks that?


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Lester Caine]

Rob Nickerson wrote:

I appreciate that this may not be what you wanted to hear, but as with any big
change, there is likely to be a few teething issues.


Unfortunatly this has now broken many inter site links so personally I'm looking 
for a route to retore a more usable interface for those of us who USE the 
website as a tool for USERS who have no need to even think about opening an 
account !!!


We do normally live in a democracy ... some one person enforcing their view is 
not acceptable and this IS now a major hassle for many of my own site links ... 
when I select 'view larger map' I expect to get to a larger map not a sales site 
:( There SHOULD be something we can add to all those legacy links to make the 
site acceptable!


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-11-30 13:51, Rob Nickerson wrote:

How do I close the "Welcome to openstreetmap" box on the new map

page?


[snip]

On the subject of the "Welcome Text", the idea of being able to close
the welcome box was discussed but ultimately not implemented. The box
does go away if you log in. I should add that the decision to not be
able to close the welcome box for non-logged in users was a design
choice by the main developer of this redesign (that is it may not
reflect the opinion of other OSM community members, system admins, or
developers). This means that you are welcome to submit a change to the
website's code if you wish and it will be considered as with all other
changes.

I appreciate that this may not be what you wanted to hear, but as with
any big change, there is likely to be a few teething issues.


Yeah. This is a bad decision. That means that non-logged in users (which 
is any user that does not have an account, and that would be the 
majority of the users of the map page, if it is successful) will be 
bothered by this box all the time.
I do have an account but I am not logged in most of the time. Why? When 
I'm not working at my computer, I'm not logged in. And when I'm working 
at my computer, after x days I'm not logged in (you may be aware that 
you get logged out after a certain number of days, even when you check 
the box "remember me". Apparently openstreetmap don't want to remember 
me.)


So yes: this is a bad decision and I can only ask to make something that 
you can close this box ASAP.


Just out of curiosity: what reasoning was there behind leaving something 
like this on on the map? Cleary the whole redesing is geared to 
unclutter the map page, and it does succeed in that. Then why have this 
annoying box there?


Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page

[Rob Nickerson]

>How do I close the "Welcome to openstreetmap" box on the new map page?
>
>Regards,
>Maarten
>

Hi Maarten,

Firstly a big thank you to everyone who worked on the new design for
OpenStreetMap.org website. I'm not going to try to name everyone as I am
bound to miss someone out, but as you will see online in this mailing list
and on the github development site, there were many people involved with
providing feedback and implementing changes to the code. Thanks all. :-)

On the subject of the "Welcome Text", the idea of being able to close the
welcome box was discussed but ultimately not implemented. The box does go
away if you log in. I should add that the decision to not be able to close
the welcome box for non-logged in users was a design choice by the main
developer of this redesign (that is it may not reflect the opinion of other
OSM community members, system admins, or developers). This means that you
are welcome to submit a change to the website's code if you wish and it
will be considered as with all other changes.

I appreciate that this may not be what you wanted to hear, but as with any
big change, there is likely to be a few teething issues.

Best regards,
Rob
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