Re: [Talk-us] Import licensing waiver

[Richard Welty]

i'm personally wary of "no objection"; it's not really an explicit
grant and there is no certainty about whether an objection might
arise later. i would say that probably there were no lawyers involved
in phrasing that statement.

richard

On 10/9/20 2:05 PM, lobstereat...@airmail.cc wrote:
> Ok, thank you for the guidance. I will forward to legal-talk, and I
> apologize if this wasn't the correct mailing list.
> 
> On Fri, 2020-10-09 at 15:44 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>> AFAIK "makes no claim as to the usefulness, accuracy or completeness"
>> is not a problem, whoever is doing imports must do this part anyway.
>>
>> But what is the license of the data?
>> Maybe "Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning Agency has no objections"
>> is sufficient (I am not a lawyer) - but only  if that agency holds
>> full rights to the dataset
>>
>> As usual, legal-talk has greater chance to get response with someone
>> with greater
>> legal knowledge.
>>
>> Oct 9, 2020, 14:38 by lobstereat...@airmail.cc:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I have been in contact with the Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning
>>> Agency (SOCPA), an Onondaga County NY agency, about the licensing
>>> of a
>>> building footprint layer they have. My intention was to import this
>>> layer after further review by the OSM community and myself. After
>>> contacting the agency head about a possible waiver for OSM use (
>>> along
>>> the lines of
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Getting_permission#Letter_Template_1
>>> ), I received this response:
>>>
>>> The Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning Agency has no objections to
>>> geodata derived in part from the "Onondaga County Building
>>> Footprints"
>>> layer being incorporated into the OpenStreetMap project geodata
>>> database and displayed publicly on the map. By using the data,
>>> however, the OpenStreetMap project agrees that Onondaga County
>>> makes no
>>> claim as to the usefulness, accuracy or completeness of the
>>> county's
>>> building footprint file, and the county will not be held
>>> responsible
>>> for any omissions or inaccuracies. This data is provided as is and
>>> there is no guarantee that it is suitable for any particular
>>> purpose. 
>>> Your use of the data is at your own risk. 
>>>
>>> Is this licensing favorable for use by the OSM community?
>>>
>>>
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>>  
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Richard Welty]

On 9/28/20 12:39 PM, Jack Burke wrote:

> Related: if it's I-## or I-###, shouldn't it be a highway=motorway,
> period? (Unless those, for some reason, are ever *not* freeways?)

in the lower 48, most of the time an Interstate designation is a
motorway. but there can be exceptions. and in Alaska and Hawaii, the
roads have to be examined on a case by case basis. congress choose to
give those two states latitude so they could get funds from the program
even though they were unlikely to actually build real "motorways".

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Richard Welty]

On 9/28/20 12:39 PM, Jack Burke wrote:
>   I *am* trying to say that they should be highway=trunk.  My
> use of the term "freeway" to describe them was artistic in nature, to
> describe how it feels actually driving on them.   That's all.

sometimes, such as in NYS, the formal road classification uses the term
Freeway to describe things that most of us would consider trunk.

for example, Washington Avenue Extension in Albany, NY has an extended
section with frontage roads and a limited number of grade level,
traffic light controlled intersections. in NYS DOT parlance, it is an
Urban Freeway.

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Re: [Talk-us] Mapping for emergency services

[Richard Welty]

a  major selling point can focus on out of district response; often
FDs know their own area well, but when they go to support other
companies they often don't know a whole lot about the place they're
responding to.

richard

On 2/3/20 6:59 PM, Mike N wrote:
> Mike,
>  It is a rather unique set of circumstances that make this project a
> good fit:
>    - The county does not map most driveways
>    - The degree of rural-ness, hills, and trees
>    - Most trees are deciduous, making the off-leaf imagery good for
> locating hidden driveways.
>    - The region is a mix of economics - some nice newer houses, many
> older houses / trailers.   The FD must manage their budget carefully:
> they declined the $15K app from the county that probably just shows GIS
> data with latest roads and address numbers.  It wouldn't necessarily
> locate driveway entrances since the data doesn't have those.  Even if it
> showed off-leaf imagery, a co-pilot wouldn't have time to study out a
> driveway on the way to a call.
> 
>    If the official data source did have driveways and a navigation app,
> I'll admit it would be hard to try OSM.  Or even the fire district I
> live in with much shorter driveways, {CommercialMapper} would find
> nearly every address almost exactly.
> 
>   The fire chief is eager to present the project to the next meeting of
> fire chiefs in the area.   I'll be interested to hear the comments from
> the other districts.
> 
>   Mike
> 
> 
> On 2/3/2020 9:57 AM, Mike Thompson wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> That is a very compelling story.  Thanks to you and the other OSM
>> folks involved for making it happen and to you for writing the diary
>> entry.  I have often thought that OSM would be a great resource
>> emergency responders because in some areas it contains data that no
>> one else has, but generally the reaction that I have gotten when I
>> have suggested this to such officials was "we have our own data", "we
>> have already invested in xyz system" (sunk cost fallacy), or "how can
>> we trust OSM?".  The exception was a search and rescue group that used
>> OSM to help locate missing people in the back country because OSM
>> contains trails that no other source has.
>>
>> Is this being publicised outside of the OSM community?  There are
>> probably associations for fire fighters and other emergency response
>> professionals and perhaps someone from the FD involved could speak
>> about this project at one of their conferences to get agencies in
>> other parts of the country (or world) interested.
>>
>> Mike
>>
> 
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[Talk-us] heads up: exit numbers in NY state

[Richard Welty]

new york is in the proces of (finally) converting exit numbers to match
mileages.

OSMers traveling in NY can help out by paying attention and updating
when they see it. changes on I-84 are reportedly happening now.

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Re: [Talk-us] Online mappy hour

[Richard Welty]

On 3/18/19 1:05 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Hi all, 
> 
> You may remember that I hosted online ‘virtual mappy hours’ a few years ago. 
> 
> I thought it was nice and I want to resume them.

i liked them and am happy to see their return.

> How does next Thursday 6pm PDT / 9pm EDT sound? I’m open to alternative 
> times, if you’re interested in joining you get to help decide when we’ll do 
> it :)

next thursday as in the 21st or the 28th? i'm going to be on my flight
to IETF on the 21st but back on the 28th if the airlines cooperate.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] armchair mappers putting errors back into the map

[Richard Welty]

On 3/3/19 1:06 PM, Andy Townsend wrote:
> On 03/03/2019 16:09, Richard Welty wrote:
>> what can/should we be doing about this sort of stuff? i'm really
>> at a bit of a loss here.
>>
> Aside from the excellent technical suggestion that's already been made,
> I'd suggest a polite changeset discussion comment, explaining that the
> imagery that they're using there is out of date or wrong for some other
> reason.
> 
> Changeset discussion comments have an advantage over direct OSM messages
> in that they are visible to all, which tends to mean that (a) everyone
> is that much more nice to each other and (b) other mappers may know that
> there is a potential problem.  Also, if you get no reply and need to ask
> the Data Working Group for help we can easily see the details of the
> problem, without have to ask you to repeat what you've already sent in PMs.

> Andy (from the DWG)

Good suggestion; i have added a changeset comment describing my concerns.

a review of the bio of the mapper in question shows that he is not
just an armchair mapper, he is a corporate armchair mapper. i don't
know if that makes it better or worse.

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Re: [Talk-us] armchair mappers putting errors back into the map

[Richard Welty]

On 3/3/19 11:47 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

> I also don't make risky armchair edit in areas with active local mappers.
> 
> ---
> 
> Is "NYS GIS data" something that can be considered nearly error free? If
> not then
> it should not be used for edits without verification with at least
> high-quality aerial imaged
> and this mapper should be reminded about it.
> 
> If yes then leaving geometry with note is a good idea.

it is certainly an area with an active local mapper (me) which can be
seen easily by the removal of tiger:reviewed tags and by looking at
edit histories.

i have not reviewed NYS GIS data because there were, in the past
at least, licensing issues. i do not know if those have been resolved
so i'm not pitching a fit about that. it might be ok now. i just don't
know. but from this edit, it appears that NYS GIS contains things that
were wrong in 2007 when we took in the TIGER data.

richard

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[Talk-us] armchair mappers putting errors back into the map

[Richard Welty]

we've talked about this before, i guess we will never stop talking about it.

i recently noticed in my OSMAnd display that an error got put back
into the map about 1 mile from where i live. a short dead end
was put in as a residential road (it's really an unnamed driveway)
based on NYS GIS data. i removed it years ago (it was in tiger 2007).
the mapper's source data (at least he put that in) implies he is
an armchair mapper.

i'm not calling out the mapper here by name (just yet); i sent him
a message about 5 minutes ago telling him that he's putting errors
back into the map and that NYS GIS data is not sufficiently
reliable. but i don't know for sure if he'll even see the message.

what can/should we be doing about this sort of stuff? i'm really
at a bit of a loss here.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] NYC Name Vandalism

[Richard Welty]

On 8/31/18 5:58 AM, Rihards wrote:
>
> It gives us the same press as some vandals messing with wikipedia -
> let's not see it as a worse thing than it is.
>
> As a sidenote, this was detected and revert in OSM in a day. If data
> consumers would update the data more frequently, the impact would be
> much, much smaller (in this specific case, probably nobody would have
> noticed).
update frequency is a real issue. i recently encountered issues with
outdated maps in an OSM based GPS application, and when i went
to edit, found that someone was keeping all the new construction
at WDW in Orlando up to date - it was just that the GPS app wasn't
pulling new maps frequently enough to keep up with reality.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] ref=* tags on links

[Richard Welty]

On 8/24/18 3:15 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> This is a criticism I've had about the Standard renderer for a while
> now.  Andy Allan's rendering refs from relations.  Osmand is rendering
> refs from relations.  Magic Earth is rendering refs from relations. 
> Pretty sure Mapbox and Rand McNally are as well.
"don't tag for the renderer" - but we lose sight of the fact that there are
multiple renderers, and non-renderer data consumers on top of that.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Drop the tiger:reviewed tag from roads

[Richard Welty]

On 5/11/18 2:00 PM, Doug Hembry wrote:
> So I cast a vote for keeping it. At least don't mechanically remove them 
> all, everywhere.
i still use the reviewed tags for guidance as well, and would prefer
that they
stick around. i remove them when i've reviewed a road carefully (name,
connectivity, location, classification, surface.)

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Rural US: Correcting Original TIGER Imported Ways

[Richard Welty]

On 2/22/18 11:57 AM, Greg Troxel wrote:
>> For the US, however, you'd want to do something other than just
>> "downgrading to track".  There are a couple of options I suspect:
> In the US, treating an unpaved road as "track" does not seem right.
> Besides the surface issue, there is a very strong notion of legal status
> between a "road" (often on its own parcel, traffic laws apply)and a
> "track" (just a place where you could drive within some larger lot, and
> often considered that traffic laws do not apply).
a very large percentage of the road network in the corn belt of the US
consists of very well maintained gravel surfaced roads. they are absolutely
not tracks and routinely support heavy farm equipment.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] New to lists and would like to suggest some imports

[Richard Welty]

first things first. the import guidelines are here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines

second, the licensing is critical. make absolutely sure that the state
has a clear statement
of public domain, CC0 or equivalent license.

probably the most valuable import would be conflated address points and
building footprints.
NYC did such an import, and Mass as well. they have import pages that
are worth looking over.
Jason Remillard has tools from the Mass project here:

https://github.com/jremillard/osm-import-toolkit

you can use the import-us mailing list to kick things around and discuss
what you're
trying to do. you need to prepare a page describing your import proposal
and it will
eventually have to be brought to the import mailing list for review. the
better the job
you do before going to the import list, the better off everyone will be.

i'm currently developing a plan for a NYS address points import
(hopefully with building
footprints) and so i'm in a somewhat similar place right now.

richard

On 1/8/18 7:54 PM, Russell Meier wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
>  
>
> I am new to the idea of discussing additions to OSM and like to do my
> best to follow best practices in suggesting an import. I am not sure
> were to start.
>
>  
>
> I live in Tennessee USA. The State of Tennessee has posted a number of
> datasets without any license restrictions on this site
> tn-tnmap.opendata.arcgis.com . I would like to suggest some of this
> data would be useful in open street maps. For now I would like to add
> a building outline data set to OSM and a state parks trails data set.
>
>  
>
> As I am new to the idea of putting up data for discussion before it is
> added to OSM I am not sure what information would be best to include
> to begin a discussion/ review process. I would appreciate some
> suggestions advice as to what information to include in this
> suggestion / request for review.
>
>  
>
> Thanks,
>
>  
>
> Treldin
>
> (Russell Meier)
>
>  
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] note to armchair mappers about NYS routes & ref tags

[Richard Welty]

On 12/7/17 6:42 PM, Richard Welty wrote:
> Follow up - i received no reply from the mapper in question (message
> sent on 29 November), so i sent him a followup indicating i was starting
> to make the changes and have started working on it. i will fix the two that
> i'm aware of manually and then set up an overpass query and ponder
> the right way to fix the rest. if it becomes a bulk edit, i will consult
> with
> the necessary folks as required.
the results of the overpass query may be observed here:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/tEA

this is a small enough set that i'll just do it by hand over the next month
or so. 961F, 962J, 990L and 990V are legitimately in the ref tags, so i'll
take care to leave those alone.

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Re: [Talk-us] note to armchair mappers about NYS routes & ref tags

[Richard Welty]

Follow up - i received no reply from the mapper in question (message
sent on 29 November), so i sent him a followup indicating i was starting
to make the changes and have started working on it. i will fix the two that
i'm aware of manually and then set up an overpass query and ponder
the right way to fix the rest. if it becomes a bulk edit, i will consult
with
the necessary folks as required.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] County Line Off?

[Richard Welty]

On 12/1/17 5:22 PM, Derek McIntosh wrote:
> I am somewhat new to OpenStreetMap, but I noticed an area where a
> county line appears to be about 550 feet west of where it should be. 
> I searched and found this:
>
> https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/38649/county-boundaries-seem-to-be-inaccurateshould-i-adjust-them
>
> That led me to this group, and here now you read my first post.
>
> Here is the location I am seeing:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.2954/-97.6712
>
>
> Any suggestions?
a lot of the boundaries in the US are from a mid 2000s dataset. the
newer TIGER
boundary data is generally much improved. however, doing boundary work is
a bit involved, involving converting the TIGER data into something more
useful
for OSM, and then getting the relations right. it's fairly fussy and
detailed work.
i've done a lot of it in Eastern NY.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] note to armchair mappers about NYS routes & ref tags

[Richard Welty]

On 11/29/17 10:36 PM, Evin Fairchild wrote:
> These unsigned reference route numbers probably should use the
> unsigned_ref=* tag. Seems like the best compromise.

that's what i intend to do if i need to go in and clean this up.

richard

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[Talk-us] note to armchair mappers about NYS routes & ref tags

[Richard Welty]

i have spotted what appears to be an armchair mapper making an inappropriate
set of edits to some NYS routes this past summer; i have sent the mapper
a note
through the OSM message system but thought this could use a broader
audience,
so that certain inappropriate ref tag settings _don't_ get made.

NY state has a not-quite-secret route numbering system called reference
routes.
these routes have numbers in the 900 range, and have a single character
suffix.
Examples are 910F, 914V and so forth and so on.

these route numbers never, with 4 well documented exceptions, _never_
appear on
conventional highway signage (the exceptions are 961F, 962J, 990L and 990V).

an example of incorrectly setting a ref tag to 910F is here:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/68519517

there are no black-and-white NYS route signs carrying the number 910F, so
convention dictates that if these designations are to be tagged at all, it
should be in unsigned_ref or other similar tag.

i haven't heard back from the mapper who added these yet, but am giving it
a little more time before i go and fix this up myself.

so anyway, it's fun to learn about things like this numbering system, but
please don't screw up the map by putting these numbers in the ref tags.
they don't belong there.

for anyone who cares, the entire list of these numbers appears here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reference_routes_in_New_York

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Trunk

[Richard Welty]

On 10/13/17 1:59 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I haven't abandoned this thread or thinking about it. It has just
> taken me a while to read through all the diary comments + what is
> being said in this thread. I intend to follow up with another diary
> post where I try to collect this smart crowd's thoughts and
> suggestions, but it will probably not until after State of the Map US
> that I get to this. 
>
> In the mean time, I decided to test some of the ideas posted here on a
> real case: The part of Michigan SR 10 northwest of the I-696
> interchange: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/252973#map=13/42.5132/-83.3168 
i would concur that this is not a trunk by the conventions that most of
us in the US have
been using for the past several years. too many driveways at the very least.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] possible upgrade for residential roads in Detroit

[Richard Welty]

in many places, avenue and street are more or less interchangable. in St
Pete
Florida, for example, avenues are east-west and streets are north-south;
otherwise
the terms are interchangable. i've seen this usage elsewhere and imagine
it's
common.

when mapping, there are two potential tricks that can help.

lines generally signal a collector or "higher" road, so tertiary
or secondary.

look at stop signs. a road where stop signs are infrequent is likely
some sort of
collector - again, tertiary or secondary.

richard

On 8/16/17 12:18 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
>
> I don't know about Detroit, but in Nashville, TN, where I live, street
> suffixes don't necessarily reflect their importance. My parents lived
> for decades on Parthenon Avenue, a very minor residential street.
>
> On August 16, 2017 10:08:44 AM "Ionut Radu - (p)"
>  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>  
>>
>> I was looking over residential roads in central area of Detroit and I
>> was wondering if some of them should be upgraded to a superior
>> function class (e.g. tertiary or secondary).
>>
>> Lots of them are Avenues and Boulevards with at least two lanes and
>> seems to be major collector roads.
>>
>> I think they were imported from TIGER Roads and some of them need a
>> review check.
>>

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Re: [Talk-us] Differences with USA admin_level tagging

[Richard Welty]

On 7/11/17 2:46 PM, Kerry Irons wrote:
> If all of you want to have some fun with jurisdictional boundaries, take a 
> look at College Corner, OH/IN.  It is a village purposefully straddling the 
> OH/IN state lines with the main street being the state line.  It has two zip 
> codes, is in three counties (two in OH, one in IN) and school district issues 
> to match.  It puts paid to a lot of ideas we all have about jurisdictional 
> hierarchies and boundaries.  Delmar in Delaware/Maryland has similar, though 
> not quite as complicated issues.  I'm sure there are other examples
i think Kenny oversimplified the NY situation. where i live in New York,
i reside in the Town of Sand Lake. my mail is delivered out of the
Averill Park
post office. my daughter went to school in the Averill Park School District.
but none of these entities (the town, postal delivery area and school
district)
even remotely share boundaries,  nor do the postal delivery area and school
district actually share a boundary with each other or the hamlet of
Averill Park.

we can have other kinds of boundaries besides administrative ones, but right
now everybody is trying to jam everything into the admin_level system. i
think
we're approaching it the wrong way.

why not

boundary=fire_district
boundary=school_district

and break a couple of these things out. as for adminstrative boundaries and
admin_level, we're just going to have to go state by state, and in NY at
least,
recognize that NYC is a very different creature from the rest of the state.

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Re: [Talk-us] Erie Canalway Trail

[Richard Welty]

On 7/5/17 1:07 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> Is anyone interested in getting a route relation started with the
> correct route?  I see in a number of other places in New York that the
> trail is indicated by the name of a way, but the ways are not linked
> into a coherent route.
you may want to consider a super relation. some parts of the Canalway trail
are themselves named trails, for example the Mohawk-Hudson Bike-Hike Trail
from Schenectady to Albany. i think i have set up a relation for this
one already,
i'll go back and check.

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Re: [Talk-us] Last word on named driveways

[Richard Welty]

On 4/22/17 4:18 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> Given the inconsistency of TIGER data, I would not be surprised if no
> automated effort will be ever attempted to deal with that dataset ever
> again.  That said, there are tilesets out there that show TIGER data
> that thas a newer name or geometry than what OSM has, though this
> itself has it's pitfalls as I've noticed a tendency for such datasets
> to false-positive on a name because OklaDOT renamed something and
> whatever Census-taker mapped it in TIGER kept the old name.
when assessing TIGER, it's good to keep in mind that it's a moving
target. the
copy that was imported into OSM was the 2007 version, which was midway
through
the improvement project, and the reason why some parts of TIGER are much
less
bad than other parts of TIGER in OSM.

there are various layers available which render newer TIGER so it can be
used as
a backdrop image for editing, i sometimes use these when cleaning up older,
obviously bad TIGER.  and TIGER really is improving. a major part of
that is that
the Census Bureau is trying to work with local GIS departments more and
reduce
their direct involvement in maintainence, which seems to me to be the
right way
to go.

richard

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[Talk-us] islands not rendering properly near Troy, NY

[Richard Welty]

i'm trying to figure out why two islands in the Hudson River
near Troy, NY have stopped rendering. i am not persuaded
myself that recent changesets are the reason, as one of the
islands has been undisturbed since a relation cleanup by fx99
back in 2013.

i wonder ifsomething changed in the rendering stylesheets.
can anyone shedany light on the subject?

the islands are here (but of course they don't show up):

https://osm.org/go/ZdrSwmt7--

thanks,
   richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

[Richard Welty]

On 3/13/17 10:08 AM, Rory McCann wrote:
>
> I generally support these kinds of things. However such an old tag is in
> use so much, that changing it would really mess a lot of things up for a
> while. You'd need a lot of work to move over. So I'm skeptical purely
> for practical reasons. And I presume you're not talking about changing
> things in the USA, but worldwide, so it would be best to use the talk@
> and/or tagging@ mailing lists.
a change like this absolutely must be discussed on tagging

the likely approach would be to deprecate man_made and publish
an end date for the old usage, and it should be set for reasonable
transition. it would take time to educate mappers and get data
consumers switched over. it's doable but takes consensus and
planning.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] MO Stare Road Classifications.

[Richard Welty]

On 3/5/17 8:22 AM, Mike N wrote:
> Hi,
>
>Typically, regional classifications do not map into OSM
> classification, and often conflict.
>
>   If a freeway / expressway is constructed as an OSM motorway, it
> should be motorway.
>
>   If a 'local' road serves an industrial area it should be
> unclassified because it doesn't serve residences.
>
>And probably others.   Even within OSM in the US, there is not an
> absolute level of classification that has been agreed on and
> verifiable by everyone.
>
> On 3/4/2017 10:55 PM, idn...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> I was thinking of using MODOT Functional classification maps to set
>> roads to.  Basically the following:
>>
philosophically, in OSM we tend to focus on things verifiable on the
ground, rather
than things we get from official docs.

i could see setting up a separate namespace which could contain
functional classifications,
but i would object to trying to hijack long established tags which
others are already
working with. we've kind of been there before and it was unfortunate.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] highway=trunk for NHS routes?

[Richard Welty]

On 12/31/16 4:19 PM, Kerry Irons wrote:
>
> Not to cloud this discussion, but be aware that at least some states
> refer to “county trunk” roads at the county level.  Near as I can tell
> that simply means “major” vs. “minor” roads at the county level
> without rigid criteria to define them.  Looking at the US NHS roads
> for my area, it seems that the choices to include a given highway in
> the NHS is fairly arbitrary.  There may have been traffic counts
> included in the decision but that would have been only part of the
> criteria – highways in low-population areas are part of the NHS while
> much heavier traffic highways in more densely populated areas are not.
>
highway=trunk is problematic in the US in many ways. it has been used rather
inconsistently over the years, but right now, it doesn't seem too bad.

changing the sense of highway=trunk to represent the NHS classification is
likely to fail miserably. not everyone will get the message. some of those
folks will get involved in edit wars. it will likely just make a hash of
things.

i recommend some sort of subtagging, although i don't think nhs=yes is
a good idea. i suggest some sort of subtagging namespace should be
worked out for these sorts of official government designations.

richard
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Re: [Talk-us] manifesto

[Richard Welty]

On 11/30/16 5:54 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> It was copied from last year but we originally planned to close
> nominations around that time. Now that we have only four candidates
> for five positions we have no choice but to extend.
hmmm. i had not planned on running again in the near term, but if we're
short, i'm
willing to step up.

richard

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[Talk-us] Fall River Massachusetts

[Richard Welty]

any mappers near Fall River? we visited Battleship Cove today
and discovered that the ramps surrounding the east end of the
I-195 bridge have been extensively reconstructed and the road
topology is noticeably different from what's in OSM. it could use
some kind attention from someone with more time than i had
available.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Best practices for dealing with old TIGER tags?

[Richard Welty]

On 6/3/16 5:13 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> Can someone review for me the 'rural residential' problem?
the short version is that we are supposed to use residential
in truly residential areas and unclassified for generic town
roads. in tiger, there is no distinction between the two and so
everything was imported as residential.

i leave it residential in areas that have a subdivision vibe
going - multiple closely spaced houses or comparatively small
building lots, but change it to unclassified if it's just a bunch
of homes that have been built along old farm roads over the
years. the section of the road i live on is slightly borderline,
or would be if the lots were smaller, but most of them are 4 acres
or more.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Best practices for dealing with old TIGER tags?

[Richard Welty]

On 6/2/16 4:59 PM, Madeline Steele wrote:
>
> The approach that is preferred at TriMet (where I work) is that if we
> are able to check the geometry of the street against fairly recent
> imagery (improving it if needed) and verify the name of the street,
> from either our local jurisdictional centerlines or the latest TIGER
> TMS layer, then we remove all of the TIGER tags. We see that as being
> adequate to remove the TIGER:reviewed tag (especially when multiple
> mappers have edited the way since the initial import, which is
> typical). We think that the other TIGER tags are not needed as they’re
> mostly comprised of information that isn’t really appropriate for the
> street ways (zip code and county, which take up less space and are
> easier to keep up-to-date when maintained as separate boundary
> polygons) and attributes that can be derived from other fields (e.g.,
> prefix, basename, suffix). While it could be handy to have these
> address components broken out, it adds bulk and requires updating
> several fields when a name is changed. Further, the TIGER attributes
> are mostly really outdated at this point as they come from 2005 data
> and have rarely been updated by mappers.
>
>
> What do you all think about this?
>
>
i usually leave the county tags, and remove all the others. there are rare
cases where a road has a historic name but is no longer signed and i may
in that case convert the tiger name into an old_name tag. i think the zip
tags from tiger are without value.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Richard Welty]

On 5/31/16 10:32 AM, Greg Troxel wrote:
> Jake  writes:
>
>> US mappers - do any of you know what government body is the keeper of truth
>> for Missouri county boundaries?
> I don't, but I would call the state GIS or highway departments and ask.
> It is likely that the country boundaries are defined in state statute
> and that it is readily available once you find the magic words to locate
> it.  The 2nd link below has a shapefile  (license unclear to me).
>
the boundaries in current TIGER are pretty good for the most part, i believe
the census bureau now sources this data from the local GIS departments
where possible

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Timezones in USA?

[Richard Welty]

On 5/26/16 3:54 PM, Bill Ricker wrote:
>
> ​
> ​I see the attraction to including TZ data in the OSM, ​but the
> timezone definitions are in flux more than most political boundaries.
'
> Whether core OSM is the right place to store and serve this is one
> question;
> what team/project commits to maintaining it another;
> and how it can be structured to reuse OSM existing political entity
> border relations without causing problems. 
this is an easy one: don't do it. Bill is right, tz data is very fluid.
count how many times
a year the tzdata file updates on a Linux box. it will never be quite
right, it will always
be a source of trouble.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Per-State relations for the Appalachian Trail

[Richard Welty]

On 5/4/16 9:54 AM, Elliott Plack wrote:
> Thanks for all of the feedback. I definitely won't be merging any
> relations based on some of what you have all stated. What I will do is
> go through and look at each relation state by state to ensure there is
> connectivity and what not. I'll update anything of interest here. 
if i found myself looking at a relation which was on a border (as Kenny
pointed out)
i'd probably just give the relation a name like NC-TN. there's no reason
to make this
any harder than that.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] API Behavior

[Richard Welty]

On 2/26/16 12:01 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> It’s an API limitation. If no node is within the bbox the API has no way of 
> knowing there should be something there. I don’t believe there is a different 
> workaround from the one you already suggest yourself, but I would be happy to 
> be wrong (as I too find this an unfortunate limitation).
>
the problem is that detecting the condition is pretty expensive.
consider long, straight boundaries that pass through your
bounding box. the search to find these segments of ways
might have to range out pretty far.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Map Your Train Ride!

[Richard Welty]

On 2/24/16 4:52 PM, stevea wrote:
> I don't know how to promote this any better than to say this here and
> hope it makes its way into local chapters' mind-space.  I'd like to
> begin a campaign to encourage OSM volunteers to:
>
> Map Your Train Ride!
>
i better get over to Huck Finn's Playland then and map my train ride:

http://www.hucksplayland.com/images/carousel/3.jpg


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Re: [Talk-us] Best practices for coastline to Inland Bay / River transition

[Richard Welty]

On 1/7/16 3:12 PM, Elliott Plack wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> What are the current accepts best practices for determining where to
> "cut off" the coastline and to begin a river or bay type feature? The
> wiki seems to be in disagreement about this, and I've read chatter
> about switching to ocean polygons.
>
> Let's take the mighty Potomac River. It is tidal from the mouth to
> points upstream from Washinton, DC, yet at some point it switches to
> waterway areas and relations. Would it be appropriate to transition
> the entire river to a multipolygon and end the ocean at the mouth?
> Perhaps the whole Chesapeake Bay should be upstream from the
> coastline. Anyone ever try converting this massive coastline areas?
> What are the best practices?
the Hudson is tidal all the way up to Albany, so that doesn't seem like
a reasonable threshold.

tidal doesn't mean salt, by the way. it simply means that the water level
is impacted by tides. in the case of the Hudson, there's a standing wave
from the actual mouth of the river up to the first dam at Troy.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in, favor of relations

[Richard Welty]

On 11/19/15 9:33 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 8:22 AM, Paul Fox  > wrote:
>
>
> thanks.  i wasn't sure if "discussion" was the same as
> "announcement", but
> i guess it is in this case.  i also didn't realize the relation
> work was
> so complete -- i was under the impression this was still
> preliminary, but
> i suppose i misread that.
>
>
>  The relation work was starting to come on line a while a go, but so
> far there's been no big push to get anyone to consume it, even though
> it does make dealing with routes much more tidy.  Hence why I proposed
> we start pushing relations for route by default.
>
Paul Norman differs on the completeness of the relation work. i would
be interested in hearing his list of the issues he thinks needs to be
addressed.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in, favor of relations

[Richard Welty]

On 11/14/15 4:25 PM, Paul Fox wrote:
> russ wrote:
>  > Paul Johnson writes:
>  >  > I was really hoping the latest carto would have included relations and
>  >  > graphical shields myself, since that's almost a throwaway ticklist item 
> for
>  >  > maps (and particularly online maps) the world over these days.
>  > 
>  > I took the time to create relations for all of my county's routes
>  > because I wanted to see them rendered with graphical shields.
>
> thinking about the term "sunset" in the subject:  when route relations
> are created, does that mean the ref= tags go away?  seems like there's
> a need for a transition period in there somewhere.
>
yes, there would need to be a period (possibly a fairly long one) for the
transition.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Street names that need expanding

[Richard Welty]

On 11/13/15 6:05 PM, Hans De Kryger wrote:
> Anyone know a overpass query to find street names that need expanding?
> Wanted to find some in Arizona but have no experience at overpass. Any
> help would be appreciated. 
>
try using overpass turbo (overpass-turbo.eu); pan/zoom to
the location of interest and here's a example query using regex
to find things that end in St or st:

[out:json][timeout:25];
 way["name"~"[Ss]t$"]({{bbox}});
out body;
>;
out skel qt;

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Re: [Talk-us] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in, favor of relations

[Richard Welty]

On 11/11/15 8:49 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> County and city routes might be a tough nut to crack.  The two Tulsa
> City Expressways use fairly generic (and in the old pre-carto
> rendering, coincidentally approximated) official signage.
>
so produce a generic looking svg file for the particular shield.
> Gilcrease Expressway (G):
>  http://s167.photobucket.com/user/bugo348/media/gilcreaseexpy.jpg.html
> Tisdale Parkway (LL):
>  http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2682/4185244881_b1236112b2.jpg
>
> None of the county routes in Tulsa County are signed, though they are
> painted on the pavement itself in Nowata County, and posted on the
> same style sign as street names in Osage and Washington Counties, and
> there's yet more that use standard MUTCD-style county shields, and at
> least one that simply uses blue painted metal sheets with the numbers
> spraypaint-stenciled on.  Probably suggest using the generic MUTCD
> shield when the exact shield is unknown, and approximate it when it is
> known.  But let's cross that bridge once the ball is rolling and the
> state level systems and higher are rendering from relations...
>
and for unsigned routes, either don't create the relation, or create a
relation
and use unsigned_ref instead of ref

county routes in Westchester County NY are unsigned for example; we should
not be generating shields in the rendering since they cannot be observed on
the ground.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in, favor of relations

[Richard Welty]

On 11/11/15 7:31 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Richard Welty <rwe...@averillpark.net
> <mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net>> wrote:
>
> 3) make the needs/requirements for growing out the shield rendering
> well known to the community. issues that require some care would
> include
>
> a) svg files for shield types that are currently not represented
> (mostly
> obscure county route signage)
>
> b) the mapping files for shield->route (again, mostly county routes as
> far as i know.)
>
>
> Not quite sure what you mean there in 3b), the mapping of highway type
> is in the network=* tag, such as network=US:US for a US highway, or
> network=US:OK for a state highway in Oklahoma.
>
internally Phil's demo has a set of files which control which shield
images are actually
generated and specifies which routes they go with. one of the tasks for
any state
is setting these up (which i think was done for the state & federal
routes, but is not
done by default for county routes).

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] San Diego Address Import Update

[Richard Welty]

On 11/10/15 11:09 AM, Clifford Snow wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 7:48 AM, Tod Fitch  > wrote:
>
> So what is a good definition for what should go in the addr:city
> tag? If it is based on being within a formal administrative
> boundary then we may not need the tag at all as it should be easy
> for a data consumer to detect that. I have come to the conclusion
> that the addr:city is best to indicate what the locals feel their
> town name is. In the western US my impression is that has a high
> correlation with the USPS designation. Further, when dealing with
> any financial or government entity, it seems the city they want to
> hear about is the one the post office delivers to, not some subset
> or superset defined by a formal boundary of an incorporated town
> or city. So equating the post office town name with the OSM
> addr:city value seems proper to me.
>
>
> +1
>
the real problem is that the tagging scheme we are using didn't consider
the divergence between postal and administrative city names and is
insufficiently
rich to express the details.

it'd be good to consider what the actual use cases are for the data. the
most obvious
one is geocoding, and a case can be made that geocoders based on both
types of city
names are useful.

i can also imagine querying OSM for the data for other GIS style
purposes and wanting
either type.

at the present time, we can derive admin city from admin boundaries if
they are present.
if we discard the postal city name, though, we can't derive it from any
thing else in OSM,
as there are no postal boundaries that function like city admin
boundaries. you can sort
of fake it using census bureau ZCTA boundaries, but the mapping from
ZCTA to city is
missing and it would take a bit of work to put that together.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in, favor of relations

[Richard Welty]

On 11/9/15 9:39 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
>
> In the issue on Github, you remark:
> "I'm contemplating closing this. As above, there are currently serious
> data issues in the US that prevent route relations from being used for
> rendering shields. If someone wants to take up the data quality issue,
> I could leave it open or re-open in the future, but unless it changes,
> I just can't see any way to make use of the route relations."
>
> That gives a horribly bleak outlook. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding
> what you say there, but it comes across as saying that the problem is
> forever unfixable, and that the hard work people have put in so far
> into generating route relations is all for naught, either because it
> remains incomplete or because the data model of route relations is
> fundamentally incompatible with shield rendering.
>
there's a chicken and egg problem here. you need mappers to work to fix
up route relations but it's hard to get motivated unless something visibly
happens with them.

this is the strategy i would use if i were able to contribute any time
(which
is unlikely for the next several months):

1) update the stylesheets for the proof-of-concept; they need to be
based on the current carto sheets going forward (if i remember correctly,
the proof-of-concept is pre-carto.)

2) bring up a map based on this up on a US chapter website, clearly
stating that its a demo/proof of concept for US shield rendering

3) make the needs/requirements for growing out the shield rendering
well known to the community. issues that require some care would include

a) svg files for shield types that are currently not represented (mostly
obscure county route signage)

b) the mapping files for shield->route (again, mostly county routes as
far as i know.)

the result will be that US based mappers will have a place they can go
look to see the results of their work. this, i think, would be a pretty
powerful motivator, and it doesn't require any action on the part of
the maintainers of the map on openstreetmap.org

it might be that the shield based rendering sticks on the US map
and never makes it to the international map, and that would be ok.

the key thing, i think, is that mappers have little motivation to work
on route relations if they don't actually get used by anything. show
them something and they might get interested again.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] San Diego Address Import Update

[Richard Welty]

On 11/9/15 8:23 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:
> Perhaps true in general, but in this specific case the administrative 
> boundary for San Diego (1) is quite a long way from the post office in Pine 
> Valley (2)(3) and the Pine Valley post office is most likely to have a postal 
> name of “Pine Valley” as displayed on the front of the building (right next 
> to the restaurant I ate in last week and I saw it). And the post office is in 
> the administrative boundary for Pine Valley (4). (I was wrong earlier in 
> assuming that there was no administrative boundary for Pine Valley.)
>
maybe but i would do some more research before making an assumption.
i'm aware of many postal city addresses that are in different counties
than the
"real" cities and i believe there are at least 4 cases where postal delivery
crosses state lines.

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Re: [Talk-us] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in, favor of relations

[Richard Welty]

On 11/9/15 10:32 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Richard Welty wrote:
>> the key thing, i think, is that mappers have little motivation to 
>> work on route relations if they don't actually get used by 
>> anything.
> Don't forget that the issue is not an endemic issue with route relations,
> it's just an osm2pgsql issue.
>
> osm2pgsql is the most popular tool for loading data into a database for
> raster rendering. But it's not the only one; that's not the only use case
> for OSM data; and who knows whether osm2pgsql will remain pivotal as vector
> rendering supersedes raster rendering. I use Interstate route relations as a
> small part of cycle.travel's routing algorithm, for example. "Anything" is a
> big word!
this is all true. but most mappers have no visibility into alternate
data consumers that might use the data. an alternate rendering
demonstrating visible use of route relations might make all the difference
in the world.

paul's comment in github is true, there is a huge amount of work to be
done with US route relations. if we want to think of the rendering on
openstreetmap.org as our "production" rendering then route relations are
not ready and won't be for a very very long, if ever. so i think we should
at least start talking about an alternate rendering derived from Phil's work
at a suitable location. i'm completely swamped with teaching and with
the work i'm doing for the NTF right now, but the latter at some point will
ease up (i hope) and i should be able to pitch in.
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Re: [Talk-us] San Diego Address Import Update

[Richard Welty]

On 11/9/15 4:51 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:
> I think you are referring to this change
> set: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/3411425
>
> I noticed errors in it the other week when adding a restaurant in Pine
> Valley and noted on the mail
> list: 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2015-November/015634.html
>
> It appears to me that there are more things wrong than just the street
> name expansion, for instance all the addresses in Pine Valley claim to
> be in the city of San Diego (the boundary for which is quite some
> distance away).
>
this may not be a mistake. "postal city" in the use does not necessarily
map directly to actual city; the postal city designation is determined by
what post office is delivering the mail.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in, favor of relations

[Richard Welty]

On 11/8/15 9:04 PM, Paul Norman wrote:
> On 11/7/2015 10:18 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
>> I find lately that it needs a patched Mapnik, because Mapnik (sensibly)
>> went to a read-only database connection, and one of Phil's stored
>> procedures modifies the database the first time that a shield cluster
>> is requested. One of these times I'll fix it.
>>
>> I'm a little disappointed that none of the 'standard' renderers
>> picked this up. 
>
> Phil's demo was an excellent proof of concept of pictorial shields
> from route relations, but isn't something that can be reasonably
> incorporated into a stylesheet as-is.
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/596 is the
> OpenStreetMap Carto issue for shields from relations,
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/508 is the
> one for pictorial shields.
>
> When matching shield colours to highway types, it becomes necessary
> use fairly complicated SQL to get route relation information[1]. It's
> complex enough that it might be a barrier to merging a pull request.
> There is an osm2pgsql issue[2] that would make it simpler, but no one
> has expressed an interest in taking that on.
>
> With no one stepping up to work on the issue, nothing will change. I
> can't speak with certainty on what other stylesheets have planned, but
> I don't expect the HOT style, osm FR, OSM German Carto, OSM Bright or
> any other open-source style to be any closer to an implementation, and
> I think the proprietary stylesheets are the same.
>
there are those of us who are interested, but i know that Phil got pretty
busy with other stuff and i know i have less than no available time.

so while i'd love to see it happen, negative available time is a major
problem.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Proposal: Sunset ref=* on ways in, favor of relations

[Richard Welty]

On 11/6/15 5:01 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> > Stop rendering this key and instead render the relations

>> >
>> > Is there *any* map style that does this at the moment?
>> >
> I believe Toby had a working mapnik-based renderer doing this on osm.us at
> one point, though i'm not sure what became of this.
>
it was never on osm.us so far as i know. the demo is still up here:

http://bl.ocks.org/ToeBee/raw/6119134/#13/42.6276/-73.8955

Phil Gold did a lot of work on this, but he's been busy with other things
and i haven't heard of any work on this in a while. i got a lot of the NYS
county route shields up and running.

richard

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[Talk-us] NY GIS/SIG conference

[Richard Welty]

The NY GIS/SIG conference is being held on April 12th, 2016 in
Rochester, NY.
The conference organizers are interested in building a strong
OSM/OpenData/OpenSource
track and broadening the audience to include the OSM community.

the call for papers will go out after Thanksgiving and i'll forward the
notice
to the list when it appears. in the meantime, folks interested in presenting
might want to think about topics.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Maxweight in the USA

[Richard Welty]

On 11/2/15 4:59 PM, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> I'm not from the US, and I'm not sure what the right answer is (if as
> a community you're happy entering maxweight=4.5359237 it'd certainly
> make everyone's lives easier), so I'm posting this here and then
> retiring back across the Atlantic :)
>
i'm an advocate of tagging using local units. i have recently observed
that a bunch
of maxweight values i set to "10 tons" were changed to "10" with the
default of
tonne, which is of course not an equivalent unit.

so i don't like the "si units only" clause, i don't like undiscussed
tagging changes of
this type, and i especially don't like bulk edits that introduce errors
into the database.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] OpenStreetMap US chapter board elections

[Richard Welty]

On 10/21/15 5:28 PM, Paul Norman wrote:
> As one of the independent scrutineers for the OSM US Election, I have
> completed counting votes, and Ian Dees, Alex Barth, Alyssa Wright,
> Martijn van Exel, and Drishtie Patel have been elected to the
> OpenStreetMap US board.
congratulations to the new and returning board members!

i'm looking forward to another excellent year.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] what happened to Sacramento?

[Richard Welty]

On 9/30/15 12:47 PM, Ray Kiddy wrote:
> Wow. I have not gotten to the point, in my mapping adventures, where I
> have had to look at changesets like this. A new thing to learn.
>
> Thanks for the reverts. I will get to fixing the rest of that soon.
>
>
you may want to look to newer TIGER boundary data as it does change
over time. 2014 City boundaries for California may be found here, already
converted into useful forms:

GeoJSON:
https://github.com/boundaryissues/TIGER2014/blob/master/place/CA/tl_2014_06_place-25.geojson

Shapefiles:
https://github.com/boundaryissues/TIGER2014/blob/master/place/CA/tl_2014_06_place-25.zip

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Re: [Talk-us] User HomocideBaltimore adding fake / fictional / old data all over Baltimore

[Richard Welty]

if he's ignoring clear requests to stop, would any other project want him?

i see value in historic buildings but a bunch of the other stuff he's done
makes him seem unattractive for any other project.

On 9/11/15 5:14 PM, Luis Villa wrote:
> Agreed that clearly these edits need to be reverted and the account
> probably blocked, but just curious: is there no alternate service
> (akin to the historical maps project) for this person to play in?
>
> Luis
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 2:13 PM Elliott Plack  > wrote:
>
> It looks like the user is at it again with the old account, has
> two edits 2 hours ago!
>
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Homicide%20Baltimore/history#map=15/39.2903/-76.5970
>
> Here they just undid one of the reverted EDITS
> again: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33966044
>
> Here they just undid another one of the reverts, deleting Johns
> Hopkins Hospital and a bunch of the road infrastructure was
> altered. http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33966182 
>
> The last one I had already manually changed back, as it was one
> POI edit, again the fake police station from the NBC show with the
> users name. http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/29141714
>
> Block and revert?
>
> Elliott
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:58 PM Mike Pruett  > wrote:
>
> I see that most everything looks to be reverted. I noticed
> though there is a second account 'Baltimore Homicide' with a
> space. This account is older but with only 3 edits. 
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Friday, September 11, 2015, Mike Pruett
> > wrote:
>
> I didn't change anything since HomicideBaltimore, only
> looked at the damage. 
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Friday, September 11, 2015, Elliott Plack
>  wrote:
>
> Mike, did you change anything since?
>
> Mike and I were chatting offline about this but I
> don't think either of us edited anything. I'm on
> mobile now, will need to check the versions when I get
> back to a desk.
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 11:48 Frederik Ramm
>  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 09/11/2015 05:08 PM, Ian Dees wrote:
> > I've added at least one changeset comment and
> have also sent a message.
> > The user has not responded to either.
>
> Given that the user has obviously read and ignored
> Paul's block message,
> I have had to put in a new block, and have
> reverted all his edits in
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33960782.
>
> There were a few objects touched by
> HomicideBaltimore and later edited
> by someone else so that they could not be reverted
> cleanly:
>
> relation 1572798 to version 44
> relation 1793885 to version 9
>
> way 16678913 to version 14
> way 16667804 to version 2
> way 336294939 to version 9
> way 239149691 to version 3
> way 16710628 to version 3
> way 357518688 to version 1
> way 16667977 to version 5
> way 16667803 to version 2
> way 277183033 to version 1
> way 237042447 to version 1
> way 16667806 to version 2
> way 16720899 to version 8
>
> node 172413345 to version 4
> node 251856525 to version 2
> node 251856526 to version 2
> node 251856527 to version 2
> node 172413348 to version 6
> node 172413352 to version 5
> node 172413355 to version 5
> node 172413357 to version 5
> node 251856534 to version 1
> node 172413345 to version 4
> node 251856534 to version 1
> node 172413355 to version 5
> node 172413348 to version 6
> node 251856526 to version 2
> node 251856525 to version 2
> node 1631252463 to version 1
> node 251856527 to version 2
> node 172413357 to version 5
> node 172413352 to version 5
>
> I *can* force these objects back to their
> 

Re: [Talk-us] User HomocideBaltimore adding fake / fictional / old data all over Baltimore

[Richard Welty]

On 9/10/15 6:34 PM, Elliott Plack wrote:
> This is very strange! The user HomicideBaltimore has been mapping all
> kinds of buildings around Baltimore that don't exist. They're old
> public housing projects or rowhomes that were razed, but seem to have
> been used on the set of the NBC show Homicide, Life on the Streets,
> shot in Baltimore.
>
> What should I do?
>
try contacting him through the OSM messaging system and ask him what his
intent is.
explain (politely) that OSM is for things that exist now, and there are
alternate ways of
handling historical data (e.g. OHM).

the DWG exists as a last resort, but it is very much a last resort and
they'll want to know
that other means have been exhausted first.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Another road classification disagreement (this time with HFCS in Kansas)

[Richard Welty]

On 9/6/15 12:49 PM, richiekenned...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am the editor in question.
>
> The discussion appears to assume that roadway design conveys type. I
> do not necessarily agree.
>
> However, I can see where some roads with a high HFCS classification
> may warrant a class downgrade. US 24 in Central Kansas obviously
> connects mainly smaller towns, whereas US 54 (which I had just
> re-classed as trunk a few days ago) connects larger towns and cities.
>
> I would suggest the following guidance for rural HFCS:
>
using HFCS has never been a normal practice for OSM. i don't think it's
rational
to impose HFCS derived classification on the US road grid at this point
in time.

in any case, it is something that should be discussed before changing tags.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Another road classification disagreement (this time with HFCS in Kansas)

[Richard Welty]

On 9/6/15 6:26 AM, Paul Norman wrote:
> On 9/6/2015 1:24 AM, Toby Murray wrote:
>> US 24: two lanes, undivided, 65 MPH speed limit, narrow shoulders
>> US 81: four lanes, divided by a 50 foot median, 70 MPH speed limit, 10
>> foot shoulders
>>
>> I'm pretty sure US 24 also has a lot more random driveways and farm
>> access roads than US 81 although 81 does have some (and hence is
>> definitely not eligible for motorway tagging)
>>
>> You can clearly see the difference between the roads in Mapillary. US
>> 24[4] and US 81[5].
>
> Based on this, it's unlikely the US 24 and US 81 serve the same
> classification in the road network, and should be different highway tags.
>
i tend to agree. while the HFCS is worthwhile as an advisory, when it
differs
significantly from observation, we need to stick with what we see on the
ground.
i could see having an HFCS tag which carries that value for informational
purposes, but it shouldn't control our own classification.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] understanding administrative boundary relations

[Richard Welty]

On 9/4/15 5:09 PM, Ray Kiddy wrote:
> So, there is nothing that a relation brings to the table that a way
> does not? I mean, it is clear that for the purposes of drawing, they
> are the same. But then are they really just the same?
i don't know about the current style, but in the past there has been an
issue
where a way was contained in a relation, and both the way and the relation
had the same admin boundary tagging. the stylesheet of 1-2 years ago
would draw the admin boundary twice.

i haven't checked to see if this problem has been fixed or  not. the correct
answer is to only tag the relation and remove any duplicate tagging from
the way, especially because the way may be in multiple relations and with
different admin levels in the different relations.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446

[Richard Welty]

On 9/2/15 12:25 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> I'm kind of seeing that as abuse of classification and classification
> creep as well.  I'd probably have gone with trunk for the entire
> length of KS 7 from KS 32 to KS 10 rather than spin the wheel and
> creep it upwards.  I'm not really seeing a significant difference in
> characteristic in the WA 500 example or the KS 7 example from the 70
> MPH sections of OK 33 or US 75 between Tulsa and Bartlesville, OK. 
> All four are surface freeways with regular intersections.  This one
> doesn't "go to 11", folks; if you think you need a mix of motorway and
> trunk, it's probably just a trunk.
>
it's a grey area, and i think anyone getting into an edit war over it
probably
needs to chill out a bit.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Railway crossing challenge for MapRoulette

[Richard Welty]

On 7/6/15 11:02 AM, Clifford Snow wrote:
 From my read of our wiki and wikipedia, the correct term should be
 level_crossing. British English and all. 
level_crossing is correct. it's what i've been using for years.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Question?

[Richard Welty]

On 6/29/15 3:58 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
 Is there any feature on the ground that can be surveyed? From the
 image it doesn't appear that the site has any historical markers that
 can be mapped. If so, I would say it doesn't belong in OSM.  You'l'
 have to ask OHM if they think it belongs there. 

 You should also contact the editor. I'm sure she would be happy to
 explain why she felt it belongs in OSM.

 Clifford

 On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 12:13 PM, Hans De Kryger
 hans.dekryge...@gmail.com mailto:hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote:

 Would this be better in OpenHistoricalMap?

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/33.44692/-112.09043



the canal, you mean?

it's probably appropriate for OHM, although i'd be interested in what is
actually
surveyable on the ground. the existence of something surveyable
determines if
anything should be in OSM in, perhaps, the disused: namespace.

it were to go into OHM, of course, we like it if it's documented and
start_date
and end_date tags are provided. but then we'd prefer the whole canal system,
or at least major chunks of it, instead of this fragment.

so the answer is definitely maybe.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Question?

[Richard Welty]

On 6/29/15 4:58 PM, Brad Neuhauser wrote:
 I think there's also this?  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/303225395

ah, missed that.

depends on whether the requirements of

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Darchaeological_site

are met; if they are, then OSM is correct. otherwise i don't think we've
discussed this in OHM in a lot of detail. we would see it as a place name
that is real for some period of time, so i don't think we'd just copy
the osm style tagging for this.

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Re: [Talk-us] our numbers

[Richard Welty]

On 6/24/15 9:28 AM, alyssa wright wrote:
 Hmmm... the internet explained what a fursuiter is (which google spell
 check doesn't like) but what is a dumpling in context?

 I'm going to say 0 on the fursuiters but I didn't see how beer in
 Queens ended up. ;) 

i only know two fursuiters who are also OSMers and neither of them were
in NYC.

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Re: [Talk-us] a plea to armchair mappers

[Richard Welty]

On 6/14/15 2:27 PM, Minh Nguyen wrote:

 With both outdated imagery and the Ohio River [1], I've had better
 luck placing redundant `note` tags on every way that such a mapper
 would be inclined to delete. iD shows `note` in a big box in the
 sidebar. It's a bit harder to miss than a (heretofore) ad-hoc tag that
 would be relegated to the All Tags section. Potlatch 2 doesn't support
 anything like it, unfortunately.
well, it's nice that iD supports a note tag this way. as far as i know
Potlatch does not and i tested JOSM and it doesn't seem to. so
note in iD would appear to be as ad-hoc as my use of README
because it sorts to the top of the tag lists in Potlatch and JOSM.

so can we have one tag which is properly supported across the
major editors? is that too much to ask?

secondarily, if it is indeed the case that this is mostly happening
because of paid mappers (i don't know that for a fact), can we
please contact who ever is supervising the paid mappers and
discuss whether their training program and standards could
be improved?

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Re: [Talk-us] cycle.travel US bike routing, and unreviewed rural TIGER

[Richard Welty]

On 6/13/15 2:38 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 I've been finding this a really useful way of locating unreviewed
 TIGER and fixing it... it's actually quite addictive. :) Looking for
 roads which cross rivers, or with long sweeping curves, is an easy way
 of identifying quick wins. My modus operandi is to retag 2+-lane roads
 with painted centrelines as tertiary, smaller paved roads as
 unclassified, and just to take the tiger:reviewed tag off paved
 residential roads. Anything unpaved gets a surface tag and/or
 highway=track.
i mostly like this. my big concern is that part of my personal
approach to tiger review is double checking the names on the
road signs and verifying any highway designations for any
needed correction of the ref tags. on the flip side, tiger review
is taking forever and maybe it's ok if that gets decoupled.

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Re: [Talk-us] a plea to armchair mappers

[Richard Welty]

On 6/11/15 10:05 AM, Kam, Kristen wrote:
 We need to make it more easier to load up-to-date imagery to  our OSM editing 
 applications. And I think something easy as publicizing the date of the 
 imagery collection would get folks to do a double take before using older 
 imagery.

i am not persuaded that these armchair mappers are paying attention. unless
there's a big warning this imagery is X years old that can't be
ignored, i think
the information will frequently be ignored.

i'd like a tag that we could use that has some editor support, it might
be the
case that  all we need is a pop up dialog when there's a README tag that
says
something like Read this before committing: text of README tag

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[Talk-us] a plea to armchair mappers

[Richard Welty]

please, please when doing the armchair mapping thing, be aware
that aerial imagery may be several years out of date.

yesterday i discovered that a highway reconfiguration i'd mapped
in Rensselaer, NY had been realigned with the out-of-date bing
aerial imagery. i was able to locate my GPX tracks and put it back,
but i still had to revisit the site to re-verify some connecting roads.

i had even put a README tag on the roads warning that the
imagery was out of date, but the armchair mapper didn't bother
to, you know, read the README.

i don't object to careful armchair mapping, i do it myself, but
you need to keep in mind that the imagery available may a number
of years old. i can name a number of highways in the Capital District
of NY where the imagery is old and the highways have been realigned
and/or reconfigured.  this will be true in many places. if you see a
mismatch, it would be a good idea to look at the history and try to
contact the the mapper responsible for the mismatch first.

thanks,
   richard

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Re: [Talk-us] a plea to armchair mappers

[Richard Welty]

On 6/11/15 12:46 PM, Mike N wrote:

   My current strategy is to leave the original objects, just remove
 all tagging except for a note about Bing imagery dated  is out of
 date.

i did this with a slip ramp from I-90 nearby that was removed when a
roundabout was put in; i had removed the ramp, someone put it
back in because bing, so i removed the tags and added a README note
to the bare way.

nobody's messed with it since. here's hoping it stays that way.

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[Talk-us] README tag with editor support

[Richard Welty]

this is a summary of previous discussion on newbies  talk-us

we have an ongoing, persistent problem with armchair mappers
correcting the map to match out of date aerial imagery. i just
had to repair the map in Rensselaer, NY; the street named
Broadway was reconfigured in late 2012, and bing imagery is
out of date. a couple of months ago someone realigned my
edits to match the out of date bing imagery. others can and
have described similar situations.

i have started using the unofficial tag README whenever i
make edits that differ from current bing imagery; i usually
place the date of the note in ISO format at the beginning
of the text. for example, here is the note i placed on the
road in Rensselaer:

2013-01-15 - reconfiguration of road not yet fully reflected in aerial
imagery. do not conform this road to current imagery.

this has mostly worked, but in this specific case the armchair
mapper chose not to read the note, or read it and dismissed it.

so i have two things in mind here:

1) formalize the README tag as a way to caution future mappers

2) request editor support, when someone goes to change a
README tagged entity, it would be nice if editors would popup
a dialog saying something along the lines of

Warning: read the following before making any changes to this
object README text follows

other suggestions that have been made have included trying to
make the dates on which imagery was collected more obvious,
adding warnings when edits are newer than available imagery
(or newer than the imagery layer currently being displayed),
and pressing to get more current imagery into place.

does anyone have any thoughts on how to approach this?

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Re: [Talk-us] a plea to armchair mappers

[Richard Welty]

On 6/11/15 1:27 PM, Darrell Fuhriman wrote:
 Shouldn’t be too hard to add this: https://github.com/rjhale1971/NAIP_WMS

 Unfortunately, the WMS server seems to be misbehaving right now. I
 sent a note to what I hope are the right people about that.

i had found Randy's page back when Darrell brought it up, and
verified that 2013 NYS imagery was available from NAIP that
clearly showed the road reconfiguration that's missing from Bing.
so the NAIP stuff has been seen working recently.

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[Talk-us] tools for processing old TIGER/Line files?

[Richard Welty]

does anyone know of any tools that can process these old
files (1992, 2006) into a more modern format?

i have a couple of things i'd like to inspect the old TIGER
files for.

thanks,
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Re: [Talk-us] tools for processing old TIGER/Line files?

[Richard Welty]

On 6/10/15 8:46 PM, Darrell Fuhriman wrote:
 OGR should be able to. http://www.gdal.org/drv_tiger.html

 Keep in mind the 1992 files in particular are very poor quality (which, BTW, 
 shouldn’t be taken as the census doing a poor job, but rather that 
 high-accuracy was not a design criteria for that era. The point was to be 
 good enough for census takers, not for navigation or high accuracy maps).

thanks, i hadn't thought to just try it with QGIS, but it loads right up.

as it happens, the thing i was looking for wasn't in TIGER that old,
but it was worth a look.

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Re: [Talk-us] A note about bags and security at SOTM-US

[Richard Welty]

On 6/4/15 9:56 AM, Bonnie Bogle wrote:
 Hi everyone,
 Thanks for the questions on backpacks at State of the Map US this weekend. We 
 have to follow the standard UN security policies, which limit bags to those 
 smaller than 14 wide x 13 high x 4 deep. We don't know how specifically 
 these policies are followed in person, but to avoid any problems getting in 
 on Saturday we recommend sticking to them as closely as you can.
this is smaller than a standard briefcase. any presenters who don't
follow talk-us
may be very surprised on saturday morning if this is enforced for conference
attendees.

i strongly recommend checking with the UN on this as it's pretty severe.
as it is, i'm
going to have to make an emergency run to staples tomorrow morning to
see what
they have in stock, and i'll have to buy two if my daughter's backpack
doesn't pass
muster.
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Re: [Talk-us] A note about bags and security at SOTM-US

[Richard Welty]

On 6/4/15 10:09 AM, Richard Welty wrote:
 i strongly recommend checking with the UN on this as it's pretty
 severe. as it is, i'm going to have to make an emergency run to
 staples tomorrow morning to see what they have in stock, and i'll have
 to buy two if my daughter's backpack doesn't pass muster. richard
ok, if this rule applies, it will be a disaster. a quick review of the
staples
website shows a tiny number of bags that might work (2 or 3), all of which
are available online, 10 business days to ship.

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Re: [Talk-us] A note about bags and security at SOTM-US

[Richard Welty]

On 6/4/15 2:03 AM, Toby Murray wrote:
 Well ok, I guess this is primarily targeted at anyone who was planning
 on bringing a backpack. I'm sure I can fit what I need for a day in a
 bag this size as well. But any normal backpack is going to be 16-18
 inches tall and too large for the UN. This is what I have used at
 previous conferences because it's what I happen to have and I've seen
 plenty of others with backpacks as well so I thought it was worth a
 warning. And while my laptop bag IS on the large side, it is by no
 means an unreasonable size to grab as a carry-on for an airplane ride
 and expect to use at the conference once you get there. Again, I've
 certainly seen 16-18 briefcases and laptop bags at other conferences
 so it is worth double checking.


i'd like some clarification on this as well. i have a rather standard
sized shoulder bag for my laptop and it's 3 inches too wide. in fact, a lot
of laptops are too big to fit the maximum sized bag listed. my
macbook air is 13 wide, i will need to scramble to find a conforming
14 wide bag before tomorrow at lunch time. a 15 laptop would
be problematic.

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[Talk-us] SOTM US venue

[Richard Welty]

so the UN complex is pretty big; from 42nd street
north to 48th street. where within this complex
will we find SOTM US?

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Re: [Talk-us] SOTM US venue

[Richard Welty]

On 5/24/15 6:04 PM, alyssa wright wrote:
 There will be volunteers leading attendees to the conference area.
 There will also be a map in the program. We will be in conference room
 1, 2 and 3 on the first floor, some additional caucus rooms for the
 BoFs and the North Lawn building for lunch. 

 Hope that helps!

it will help once we find the volunteers, but it'd be nice to know
which street to expect to find them at. as i said, it's a big place.

what should we expect for security? regular visitors have to go
through some processes, i see. should we allow for time from
arrival to getting to the actual conference registration site?

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Re: [Talk-us] Removing a CDP

[Richard Welty]

On 5/19/15 8:35 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
 I would like to remove Machias, Washington admin_level  8 since it
 does not exist as a city in Washington. It has been there for a number
 of years apparently added by a bot. I plan to leave it as a CDP
 locality node. There doesn't seem to be any chance that it will become
 a city and will most likely be annex by Lake Stevens.

 Before I do I'd like to hear people opinion about deleting these
 admin_level=8 for CDP boundaries. 

i think deleting CDP boundaries that don't make any sense is not
unreasonable.

i've deleted a couple on that basis.

also, the boundary import that brought in the CDPs is kind of out of date;
the census bureau has updated quite a few of them, which i noticed while
cleaning up borders in eastern NY.

they probably shouldn't be in an administrative boundary category anyway,
as they don't have any sort of local governance function.

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: [OHM] Fwd: moving data from OSM to OHM - what should the markers be?

[Richard Welty]

On 5/18/15 9:22 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



 Am 18.05.2015 um 15:11 schrieb Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net:

 in OSM, i tag at least the basic, visible course as highway=track,
 with start_date and end_date when known (which is usually the
 case for US and Canada tracks - i have references which

 I am not familiar with the context/setting but wouldn't use highway track for 
 a way that is not built for agricultural/forestral/fishing purposes, 
 highway=raceway would be better (also because your start and end date tags 
 are referring to this, not to the highway=track)

well, it's no longer used as a raceway, which is the reason for going
to the disused: namespace for that tag. in theory they could become
active again, although in most cases that's very, very unlikely. i
doubt there will ever be a rendering specific to disused raceways and
i dont think we want them rendered the same way as active
raceways. disused: is there and works for this.

it's really kind of a hole in the tagging system. they were never public
roads and aren't now. they're not currently active raceways, but they
are visible artifacts. i could omit the highway tag altogether, in which
case they would not render on openstreetmap.org, which is ok with
me.

this is why i'm looking for input. i'm really pretty ok with not providing
a highway tag at all, as there isn't really a version that's right.

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[Talk-us] Fwd: Re: [OHM] Fwd: moving data from OSM to OHM - what should the markers be?

[Richard Welty]

[this is a lightly revised version of something i sent over to the
OHM mailing list last night]

i didn't really get any input here, but i have made some progress in
deciding what to do about the issue with visible remnants of old
race tracks. i think that what i'm doing is consistent with the norms
for tagging in both OSM and OHM.

in OSM, i tag at least the basic, visible course as highway=track,
with start_date and end_date when known (which is usually the
case for US and Canada tracks - i have references which are pretty
comprehensive.) additionally, i set disused:highway=raceway which
the renderer for www.openstreetmap.org ignores. anyone looking
at it in JOSM or Potlatch should be able to figure out what is going
on and hopefully either ignore it or improve it.

in OHM, i give it the full treatment as if it were a current race
track, with of course start_date and end_date.

the three drag strips i provided as examples (Bee Line, Motion and
Motor City) are now tagged in this manner.

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: [OHM] Fwd: moving data from OSM to OHM - what should the markers be?

[Richard Welty]

on a tangentially related note...

the first person who comes up to me at SOTM-US and asks will
get copies of _History of America's Speedways_ and the 2015
National Speedway Directory.

i will have them with me at my talk Saturday morning unless
someone asks to me before that. must be in person, no
email, text or other electronic requests will be honored.

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Re: [Talk-us] New York, Ellis Island Boundary

[Richard Welty]

On 5/11/15 11:55 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
 I agree, the historical boundary should be removed, but we need to be
 sure to show what's in what state. It's quite a little mess.


i think the only problem is that the word historical is there. deleting
the tags on the way would be sufficient. the way itself is shared by a
lot of boundary relations and should not be removed.

i have it loaded up in JOSM right now, but will refrain from uploading
changes for the moment. i'll pull the trigger if there is a consensus.

richard

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[Talk-us] NYS ortho imagery layers

[Richard Welty]

there are a number of orthoimagery layers available from
New York State, beginning with 2000. i have inquired about
any usage restrictions and according to Ray Faught of the NYS
GIS Program Office, they are free for public use without
restriction.

the layers may be found here:

http://www.orthos.dhses.ny.gov/arcgis/rest/services

for each set, there are links for WMS and json at the top of
the page.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Mappy Hour - Next Monday

[Richard Welty]

geez, now i feel like i have to show up.


On 4/6/15 4:59 PM, Toby Murray wrote:
 I was just wondering if there was a mappy hour tonight and found this
 email. Thought I'd send out a ping in case others weren't sure either.
 Hope to see some of you tonight :)

 Toby

 On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 1:26 AM, Mike Dupont
 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com
 mailto:jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:


 On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org
 mailto:m...@rtijn.org wrote:

 OpenHistoricalMap. Read about it
 here: http://www.openhistoricalmap.org/about but better still,
 come join the Mappy Hour next week. 


 That is great! nice to hear about that project. Good job!


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[Talk-us] mappy hour link

[Richard Welty]

not sure where martijn is so here is a link

https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/g2o6g44btltptbrbtounshmutya

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Re: [Talk-us] CloudMade's ambassadors

[Richard Welty]

On 4/6/15 12:06 AM, Kate Chapman wrote:
 Thanks for posting this. The first OSM person I ever met was Russ
 Nelson when he was a CloudMade ambassador. It was at a mapping party
 in Baltimore, that really is what sparked further involvement in OSM
 for me. Prior to that I did a bit of mapping in my neighborhood.
 Thanks Russ!


i'll thank Russ too. we go back in an entirely different internet
community (anti-spam) and when he dropped out to go to
Cloudmade it piqued my interest due to my long term love of
maps (going back to boy scouts). so here i am.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] perceptions of OHM and other similar projects

[Richard Welty]

On 4/4/15 8:29 AM, Mike Dupont wrote:

 On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com
 mailto:nel...@crynwr.com wrote:

 If the two were layers in the same database, or if they have been
 tagged using railway=dismantled and railway=abandoned, then it's no
 problem to look at them, render them, edit them, analyze them


 I still dont understand why we dont support multiple layers. It would
 seem to be the most logical thing to do and the api could support that
 so simple clients could download a different layers each time.

i was thinking that it'd be pretty easy to set up a leaflet widget to
display an OSM basemap with OHM railroad data as a vector overlay,
but then it occurred to me that Russ is frequently mapping in areas
with no cell signal so that won't work.

but OsmAnd (which i think is what Russ uses for his offline maps) can
import layers sourced elsewhere, so there may be a path there.

richard

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[Talk-us] perceptions of OHM and other similar projects

[Richard Welty]

so one of the things from recent discussion that concerns me are
perceptions out there about projects parallel to OSM that are designed
to complement it, specifically OHM. here is an outline of the view from
OHM, and i'm interesting in understanding why some treat the whole
project so dismissively (note that i'm a little bit of a late comer to OHM,
i've been following it with interest since it started but only just recently
started contributing directly.)

OHM was created because of the perceived desire to start handling
historic spatial data and characterize temporal aspects of it. the whole
idea is that we accept that OSM is not a good place for this data, so
why not create such a place?

it's a real database, using the OSM software stack. it's live, and you
can pan around in it and not see much because it's pretty sparse.
but you can go see historic building footprints and addresses in
lower manhattan right now. in fact, we just set up a list of projects
that are going on in OHM to make it easier for folks to see what's
up:

  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Historical_Map/Projects

the short summary is

1.it's real and operational
2.there's stuff in it
3.if you know OSM tools, you can join the party
4.we just set up overpass for it, still tweaking it, but overlaying
   interesting OHM data on OSM basemaps just got a bit easier

a number of OHM oriented talk proposals were submitted for
SOTM US, and some will probably make the program.

i think the long term future of OSM will probably involve more
OHM like projects to supplement OSM. my question is how will
the core OSM community treat them? right now it seems very
mixed.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] perceptions of OHM and other similar projects

[Richard Welty]

On 4/3/15 10:40 AM, Greg Morgan wrote:


 If you are asking for an opinion, then this is the kind-of thing that
 is a detriment to OSM.  Whereas I try to use OpenSeaMap tags where I
 can for the limited features that sea map applies, I won't go out of
 my way to add data to OSH.  My main concern is that OSH defuses
 mapping resources that are already sparse in the US.  That we couldn't
 find a set of tags to keep the data in the main OSM database is part
 of the problems of OSM as a project.  There's still plenty to do but
 OSM the project is moribund.

umm, by OSH do you mean OHM? i'll reply as if you did.

basically, the folks contributing to OHM are largely OSMers who want to do
historical mapping. the current consensus in OSM appears to be that
historical
data doesn't belong in OSM (there are OSM participants who disagree, but
they
seem to be in the minority). so if we want to map history we need
another place
to do it.

as for defusing mapping resources, are you telling us that we shouldn't do
OHM because you think we should work on OSM? because this is a volunteer
project after all...

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Moving historic railroad ways from OSM to OpenHistoricalMap

[Richard Welty]

On 4/2/15 4:27 PM, Paul Norman wrote:
 On 3/29/2015 5:00 AM, Mark Bradley wrote:
 Can I export these ways from OSM and then import them into OHM?
 The main technical problem with moving data from one OSM API to
 another (e.g. OSM to OHM, OSM to dev server, OSM to OpenGeoFiction) is
 making sure to get rid of the OSM IDs, as the other APIs will need to
 generate their own.

 There are clever ways to do this, but one simple way is to put what
 you want to move on its own layer in JOSM, convert the layer to GPX,
 and convert it from GPX back to OSM. This leaves you with a completely
 new way with an identical geometry. You can then copy the tags over.

 This works best with a small number of long complex ways.

note that when you bring data into OHM, it is good form to provide
start_date and
end_date tags to along with it.

railways are not marked abandoned in OHM, rather they have temporal data
about when they existed.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Moving historic railroad ways from OSM to OpenHistoricalMap

[Richard Welty]

On 4/1/15 3:14 AM, Mike Dupont wrote:
 Here in Kansas we have very many abandoned railways (and many pickup
 trucks to replace them) that are turned into trails or paved over and
 still visible. I would say if there is any sign of them left to keep
 the information in some way.

this is a circumstance for which i think we need to talk things out.

given that OHM exists and works, the situation has evolved a
bit. i know that when i'm looking at inactive race facilities, there's
a very grey area when it comes to putting them in OHM vs OSM,
and i've not been as consistent as i should be about it, in large
part because i'm uncertain about where the dividing line really
should be, and to what extent i should take non-spatial data
into account.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] USA Rail: Calling all OSM railfans! (especially in California)

[Richard Welty]

On 3/31/15 4:58 PM, Paul Norman wrote:
 On 3/31/2015 11:02 AM, stevea wrote:
 Part of the reason I do this is because other places you might
 discover these data (subdivision names) are maps published by the
 rail corporations.  But, be careful.  For example, I have found that
 when I go to Union Pacific's web site to get a page that displays
 their network map, I get a login screen or a very high-zoom level
 map which is clearly copyright protected, meaning OSM cannot enter
 those data.  However, a map I found on BNSF's web site [1] is clearly
 NOT copyright protected, so I believe I can use those data.  These
 are usually very high-zoom level maps, meaning they are only useful
 to confirm that an existing line (again, from TIGER) has a certain
 name.  They are not sufficient/detailed enough to enter the rail data
 from scratch.
 Without some kind of license giving permission, you cannot use other
 maps with OSM. The absence of a copyright notice has no impact on if
 something is protected by copyright* and I see nothing on the BNSF map
 to imply it is public domain.

 * With some exceptions, mainly around old works.

the specific break point for the US is March 1st 1989, when the US finally
joined the Berne Convention. before this, explicit copyright notices were
required in the US; afterwards US copyright law became much more
consistent with international norms and all works are under copyright
whether there is notice or not.

the Berne convention dates from 1886, but the original list of signatories
was fairly small. now, membership in the WTO requires that countries
adapt nearly all provisions of the convention.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Elevation in local units

[Richard Welty]

On 3/25/15 1:43 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

   * I feel that osm convention should encourage all mappers to specify
 units (e.g. 22 m).
   * That whitespace should be allowed (e.g. 22m, 22 m, or even 22 meters).
   * And that local units should be encouraged (e.g. 22 feet, or 22' 0).

 The wiki templates, if spruced up, could define the rules uniformly
 for all keys that take a measurement unit
 (e.g. height, width, ele, max_height, etc).
+1

don't wait for all the consumers to catch up; you'll be waiting forever.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Boundaries and verifiability (was Re: Retagging hamlets in the US)

[Richard Welty]

On 3/24/15 6:01 PM, Jack Burke wrote:
 I would politely disagree that TIGER is an authoritative source for two 
 reasons:

 1) The extensive TIGER cleanup that is still being done years after the last 
 import, and
well, if that data were removed and sourced externally, the problems
with TIGER boundary
data and OSM would change in character rather substantially.
 2) While helpful at compiling data, the federal government is not 
 authoritative for any boundaries within a state (and once established, not 
 even for the boundaries of the states themselves).
as part of the ongoing improvements in TIGER, the Census Bureau is
increasingly pulling data from County GIS departments rather than
maintaining it themselves. the quality is much better. and since it's
digital, the game of telephone metaphor does not apply so much any
more.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Mappy Hour tomorrow (monday) night

[Richard Welty]

On 3/23/15 8:32 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
 I may need access to the US chapter page to do it without screwing
 over who's gonna be running it from recording.

i think only Martijn can add managers. i'll try wrestling with
event interface again in a little bit.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Mappy Hour tomorrow (monday) night

[Richard Welty]

On 3/23/15 4:14 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
 Should I make the G+ event for it or will that trip things up?

i was a little mystified by the current G+ interface so i didn't do so.
if you can figure it out, more power to you.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Mappy Hour tomorrow (monday) night

[Richard Welty]

here is an event link which i hope works ok:

https://plus.google.com/b/113331273824393211883/events/cnsbqt4rtjjcekl2hcgc53josj0?authkey=COK7xau86urZ6gE

i may need to send invitations to people on a case by case basis;
if you have a g+ account but can't get access, send me an email
and i'll try to sort it out.

note that i teach class at UAlbany from 5:30pm to 7:05pm,
so i will be ignoring all messages until about 7:40pm, but that
gives me nearly an hour to sort things out after i get home.

richard

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[Talk-us] mappy hour link

[Richard Welty]

this should be it:

https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/event/cnsbqt4rtjjcekl2hcgc53josj0

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[Talk-us] Mappy Hour tomorrow (monday) night

[Richard Welty]

in the traditional 8:30pm ET slot - Martijn is traveling so i get
to pick the time.

i'll post a link here when i have it.

richard

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