Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Amen! - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 23:07 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I know that you say that you do not believe that one must be right to be saved, but you do not realize that I do not believe one is saved by embracing the right philosophy. One is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, which results in righteousness being imparted to the believer apart from works. The fruit of that faith is good works being wrought in the life of the believer. This is my paradigm. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences As to your last question -- you know that I do not believe that one must be right right to be saved. I fear that the answer to your question is what you believe. The gospel you express on this site is the produce of a very different paradigm than mine. Not that I am right - but simply that we are most different. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote: You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote: Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller- Original Mes sage - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confu sion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe.If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOLI do have to ask you, however, that when you say, "an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint," are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian?I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the task He has initiated within me. If He has become a part of who I am, ontologically, then how can I be lost apart from an outright rebellion to his presense? With that in mind, I will answer your question in a single word, "Yes." David Miller. - Original Message -
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
[Original Message] From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 1/15/2006 11:04:44 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences The entire post was included, John. Here we go again. I'm beginning to think that not only do I have trouble understanding you, but you have trouble understanding your own writing. :-) Jesus did not rebuke those who were already children of God. He rebuked Pharisees and hypocrites whose father was Satan. When I teach and preach in my church, the reception is generally different from public preaching and teaching. In church, it probably does not matter much what I say, people are looking for ways to agree with me and say amen for the most part. In public, while there are some who do that, most people are antagonistic to the very idea of God. They hate God and many that profess to be Christians are ashamed of God. Jews are generally curious as to whether as a professor of Jesus Christ I would condemn them for being Jewish. They love it when I call them God's chosen people and say that Jesus and most of his apostles were Jews. cd: I tell them the same thing and get the same reaction-then take them to Isaiah. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences David, you need to include the entire post to which you refer. The first quote is not something that I said as a point of fact, because, of course, I believe that repentance is something other than confession and netiehr plays a role in continuing our salvation. In other words, I do not confess sin because I am lost until I do. Jesus rebuked those who were already the Children of God !!!Seems like you should be preaching grace to the lost and do your rebuking in your own church !! jd -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote: You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote: Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller - Original Mes sage - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: David Miller John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confu sion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe. If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL I do have to ask you, however, that when you say, an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint, are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of
none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES!
Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein
they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe
that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true
believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this)
then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he
believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to
influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to
such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever.
Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this
'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you.
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: January 14, 2006 17:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
cd: Well some people are going to be caught up into the air and
some graves or going to open and all are going to be changed in a moments
time-that is what the passage says -do you know an errors in this
passage?
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/14/2006 10:17:23 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
Never fear Dean, it's based on a faulty reading
of key texts so nobody's goin' anywhere. It is kind of on a par with Albert
Barnes' reading concerning the eternality of the Son.
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: January 14, 2006 10:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/14/2006 9:58:12 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
And where is Terry? I am not a student of the
"rapture," but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I
mean, what if it has already occured?
Terry seems to be the only one
missing!!!
jd
cd: Hey now-I'm still here also so it didn't happen yet:-)
--
Original message -- From: "Dean Moore"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cd: I don't know-but he has been quite
lately.
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
..Bro,
do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night?
:)
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta
like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind
isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be
damned?
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
are
you street preachin' these days?
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on
concernment on you part would put most of these issues at
rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you
think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get
different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade
levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying
theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think
that you would realize some have more knowledge than others
and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the
younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to
decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek
to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my
opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day
if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his
doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride.
Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and
Armenians in our
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
It fascinates me that both yourself and DM believe that readers/participants on TT do not 'know' you. You both have no hesitation to say that you 'know' us. Why is that, Judy (DM)? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 16:47 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the "mind of Christ" Gary because you are off intoanother orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth(onedelves intohumanity, ppl theirthoughtsbec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's viewmakes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
You err Lance; what I mainly respond to is Garys and your gross misrepresentation of what I write and I think it safe to assume that the same applies to DavidM since he appears to be a thorn in your side. On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:53:46 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It fascinates me that both yourself and DM believe that readers/participants on TT do not 'know' you. You both have no hesitation to say that you 'know' us. Why is that, Judy (DM)? From: Judy Taylor You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the "mind of Christ" Gary because you are off intoanother orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth(onedelves intohumanity, ppl theirthoughtsbec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's viewmakes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
John wrote: If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote: You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote: Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confusion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe. If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL I do have to ask you, however, that when you say, an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint, are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian? I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the task He has initiated within me. If He has become a part of who I am, ontologically, then how can I be lost apart from an outright rebellion to his presense? With that in mind, I will answer your question in a single word, Yes. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I am sure I agree --- but I do not dismiss the relational impact (whether positive or negative) of those on this site. When I came to this forum, I was a supporter of David M, typically conservative (for lack of a better term) and an oft defender of Judy Taylor. And what have I learned? That few on this site have a clue as to the meaning of liberal. that some on this site place concepts (their concepts which they confuse with divine concpet) as more important than continuing relationships. Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. That is how I see the difference. jd -- Original message -- From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/11/2006 7:59:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd cd: What I am
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Your memory fails you or, you lie. You've alleged many things concerning myself, Gary, John and, Bill. I ask those named to say so if they believe that I've spoken an untruth concerning you in this matter. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 07:26 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences You err Lance; what I mainly respond to is Garys and your gross misrepresentation of what I write and I think it safe to assume that the same applies to DavidM since he appears to be a thorn in your side. On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:53:46 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It fascinates me that both yourself and DM believe that readers/participants on TT do not 'know' you. You both have no hesitation to say that you 'know' us. Why is that, Judy (DM)? From: Judy Taylor You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the "mind of Christ" Gary because you are off intoanother orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth(onedelves intohumanity, ppl theirthoughtsbec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's viewmakes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
cd: Good that means you are listening. - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 1:25:05 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences DAVEH: Don't have much to add to any of the discussions. BTWIt wasn't my computer this time, but rather my ISP had a couple tough days earlier this week.Dean Moore wrote: cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) O-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Lance wrote: JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. Not quite right, Lance. I will speak for myself but I think Judy is in agreement with me on this. I believe that the Scripture is inspired, and I believe that Jesus as per the teachings of Scripture has promised to inspire the believer. Therefore, we are promised to receive an understanding of Scripture by the Spirit. This does not mean that we do not engage in uninspired interpretation. We engage in that like other men, but we attempt to forsake uninspired interpretation as a dead work. We warn others from becoming too engaged in it, and it becoming an idol and substituting for the promise of Jesus Christ for the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I do not believe that everything I say is inspired, nor do I believe all my interpretations are spot on. However, there are areas of understanding that I do believe are inspired and therefore infallible. For example, my belief that Jesus is the Christ is infallible from my perspective. FWIW, I find my position on this much less dangerous than John claiming an ontological infallibility for himself. Why do you give him a pass on that, but wrangle over every jot and tittle of what I write? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES! Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this) then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever. Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this 'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences cd: Well some people are going to be caught up into the air and some graves or going to open and all are going to be changed in a moments time-that is what the passage says -do you know an errors in this passage? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:17:23 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Never fear Dean, it's based on a faulty reading of key texts so nobody's goin' anywhere. It is kind of on a par with Albert Barnes' reading concerning the eternality of the Son. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 10:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 9:58:12 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences And where is Terry? I am not a student of the rapture, but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I mean, what if it has already occured? Terry seems to be the only one missing !!! jd cd: Hey now-I'm still here also so it didn't happen yet:-) -- Original message -- From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are among a couple of ppl whose mind is the God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college: what do you think the highest level of math is? I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No, I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Thanks for this, DM. Will you now offer up an 'inspired' understanding of WHO JESUS IS? I regard you more highly than some of my 'shots' would suggest. I should be honored to hear you on this. please, Lance - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 07:46 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Lance wrote: JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. Not quite right, Lance. I will speak for myself but I think Judy is in agreement with me on this. I believe that the Scripture is inspired, and I believe that Jesus as per the teachings of Scripture has promised to inspire the believer. Therefore, we are promised to receive an understanding of Scripture by the Spirit. This does not mean that we do not engage in uninspired interpretation. We engage in that like other men, but we attempt to forsake uninspired interpretation as a dead work. We warn others from becoming too engaged in it, and it becoming an idol and substituting for the promise of Jesus Christ for the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I do not believe that everything I say is inspired, nor do I believe all my interpretations are spot on. However, there are areas of understanding that I do believe are inspired and therefore infallible. For example, my belief that Jesus is the Christ is infallible from my perspective. FWIW, I find my position on this much less dangerous than John claiming an ontological infallibility for himself. Why do you give him a pass on that, but wrangle over every jot and tittle of what I write? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES! Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this) then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever. Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this 'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences cd: Well some people are going to be caught up into the air and some graves or going to open and all are going to be changed in a moments time-that is what the passage says -do you know an errors in this passage? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:17:23 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Never fear Dean, it's based on a faulty reading of key texts so nobody's goin' anywhere. It is kind of on a par with Albert Barnes' reading concerning the eternality of the Son. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 10:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 9:58:12 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences And where is Terry? I am not a student of the rapture, but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I mean, what if it has already occured? Terry seems to be the only one missing !!! jd cd: Hey now-I'm still here also so it didn't happen yet:-) -- Original message -- From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are among a couple of ppl whose mind is the God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college: what do you think the highest level of math is? I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ** Moderator Comment **
Perry said he would not be available this weekend and he asked me to help with moderating the list. Therefore, I am sending out a few comments regarding ad hominem statements that should be reconsidered. Please do not reply to the list for any posts with ** Moderator Comment ** in the subject line. You may write me privately if you wish. Judy, without any further comment than what you have written below, your statement "you are off into another orbit" is simply insulting the character of Gary and would tend to inflame. I would encourage you to consider rewording a thought like this in the future. Thanks. David Miller moderator pro tem - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the "mind of Christ" Gary because you are off intoanother orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth(onedelves intohumanity, ppl theirthoughtsbec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's viewmakes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
We (DM JT) read me just fine, says DM. I misread them, says DM. What, IMO, is actually being said is that the two of you may warn, judge, malign and critique from some mythical position you believe yourselves to occupy. I, and according to the two of you, others as well, simply don't understand you. (have you sought professional help on this?). I (we) await your 'teaching' on Who Jesus Is, DM. It may elicit an 'Amen' from one and all. It may not. Should you wish to continue to pontificate from on high then, we shall not hear matters of substance. We shall only hear you judge us. (something you seem to do regularly) - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 07:58 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Because when we read you, we see a constant effort to misrepresent us and try to catch us in our words just as the scholars and Pharisees did to Jesus. On the other hand, the feedback you give us from how we represent you tells us that we are reading and understanding you just fine. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences It fascinates me that both yourself and DM believe that readers/participants on TT do not 'know' you. You both have no hesitation to say that you 'know' us. Why is that, Judy (DM)? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 16:47 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the mind of Christ Gary because you are off into another orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth (one delves into humanity, ppl their thoughts bec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's view makes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
- Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:46:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES! Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this) then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever. Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this 'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you. cd: Yes Lance what you offer matters to me as I am here to learn and to offer what helpI can to others as this is what my master ordered.Having said that back to the passage in question Thess 4:13-18. How do you interpret this passage to mean? The wording is speaking of a future event and actually states :" For if we believe that Christ died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"-what else can this mean. Lance I read you saying we are wrong but you don't offer no reason why we are wrong nor offer any other interpretation-please do so.Lance this was written in the late 1700(s) by Adam Clark which I believe is connected to Rev. 19:7-10 which I am copying in the below.John will find verse 10 interesting. 1Th 4:18 - Comfort one another with these words - Strange saying! comfort a man with the information that he is going to appear before the judgment-seat of God! Who can feel comfort from these words? That man alone with whose spirit the Spirit of God bears witness that his sins are blotted out, and the thoughts of whose heart are purified by the inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit, so that he can perfectly love him, and worthily magnify his name. Reader, thou art not in a safe state unless it be thus with thee, or thou art hungering and thirsting after righteousness. If so, thou shalt be filled; for it is impossible that thou shouldst be taken away in thy sins, while mourning after the salvation of God. They that seek shall find. cd: And what words are we to comfort each other with? 1Th 4:16 - The Lord himself - That is: Jesus Christ shall descend from heaven; shall descend in like manner as he was seen by his disciples to ascend, i.e. in his human form, but now infinitely more glorious; for thousands of thousands shall minister unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand shall stand before him; for the Son of man shall come on the throne of his glory: but who may abide the day of his coming, or stand when he appeareth? With a shout - Or order, e? ?e?e?sµat?? and probably in these words: Arise, ye dead, and come to judgment; which order shall be repeated by the archangel, who shall accompany it with the sound of the trump of God, whose great and terrible blasts, like those on mount Sinai, sounding louder and louder, shall shake both the heavens and the earth! Observe the order of this terribly glorious day: 1. Jesus, in all the dignity and splendor of his eternal majesty, shall descend from heaven to the mid region, what the apostle calls the air, somewhere within the earths atmosphere. 2. Then the ?e?e?sµa, shout or order, shall be given for the dead to arise. 3. Next the archangel, as the herald of Christ, shall repeat the order, Arise, ye dead, and come to judgment! 4. When all the dead in Christ are raised, then the trumpet shall sound, as the signal for them all to flock together to the throne of Christ. It was by the sound of the trumpet that the solemn assemblies, under the law, were convoked; and to such convocations there appears to be here an allusion. 5. When the dead in Christ are raised, their vile bodies being made like unto his glorious body, then, 6. Those who are alive shall be changed, and made immortal. 7. These shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. 8. We may suppose that the judgment will now be set, and the books opened, and the dead judged out of the things written in those books. 9. The eternal states of quick and dead being thus determined, then all who shall be found to have made a covenant with him by sacrifice, and to have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, shall be taken to his eternal glory, and be for ever with the Lord. What an inexpressibly terrific glory will then be exhibited! I forbear to call in here the descriptions which men of a poetic turn have made of this terrible scene, because I cannot trust to their correctness; and it is a subject which we should speak of and contemplate as nearly as possible in
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Because when we read you, we see a constant effort to misrepresent us and try to catch us in our words just as the scholars and Pharisees did to Jesus. On the other hand, the feedback you give us from how we represent you tells us that we are reading and understanding you just fine. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences It fascinates me that both yourself and DM believe that readers/participants on TT do not 'know' you. You both have no hesitation to say that you 'know' us. Why is that, Judy (DM)? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 16:47 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the mind of Christ Gary because you are off into another orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth (one delves into humanity, ppl their thoughts bec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's view makes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ** Moderator Comment **
Perry said he would not be available this weekend and he asked me to help with moderating the list. Therefore, I am sending out a few comments regarding ad hominem statements that should be reconsidered. Please do not reply to the list for any posts with ** Moderator Comment ** in the subject line. You may write me privately if you wish. Gary, the end of your statement should be reworded. Saying, "Isaiah's view makes more sense of him than yours does" is an attack on the messenger rather than the message. Try to develop a prose that explains how Isaiah's view makes more sense than the idea that "someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts." David Miller Moderator pro tem - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences myth(onedelves intohumanity, ppl theirthoughtsbec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's viewmakes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
It is an irony or ironies that Lance Muir himself would deign to write the following about another person .. "Should you wish to continue to pontificate from on high then, we shall not hear matters of substance. We shall only hear you judge us. (something you seem to do regularly)" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] We (DM JT) read me just fine, says DM. I misread them, says DM. What, IMO, is actually being said is that the two of you may warn, judge, malign and critique from some mythical position you believe yourselves to occupy. I, and according to the two of you, others as well, simply don't understand you. (have you sought professional help on this?). I (we) await your 'teaching' on Who Jesus Is, DM. It may elicit an 'Amen' from one and all. It may not. Should you wish to continue to pontificate from on high then, we shall not hear matters of substance. We shall only hear you judge us. (something you seem to do regularly) - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: January 15, 2006 07:58Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Because when we read you, we see a constant effort to misrepresent us and try to catch us in our words just as the scholars and Pharisees did to Jesus. On the other hand, the feedback you give us from how we represent you tells us that we are reading and understanding you just fine. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences It fascinates me that both yourself and DM believe that readers/participants on TT do not 'know' you. You both have no hesitation to say that you 'know' us. Why is that, Judy (DM)? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 16:47 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the "mind of Christ" Gary because you are off into another orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth (one delves into humanity, ppl their thoughts bec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's view makes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Let's break the response down into two parts, Dean. Part #1:Are you aware that the majority of believing Bible scholars no longer support this 'teaching'? Are you also aware of the history of this teaching throughout the last 2,000 years? Are you comfortable with fellow believers coming to a thoughtful understanding of this 'teaching' that differs from your own? - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 08:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:46:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES! Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this) then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever. Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this 'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you. cd: Yes Lance what you offer matters to me as I am here to learn and to offer what helpI can to others as this is what my master ordered.Having said that back to the passage in question Thess 4:13-18. How do you interpret this passage to mean? The wording is speaking of a future event and actually states :" For if we believe that Christ died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"-what else can this mean. Lance I read you saying we are wrong but you don't offer no reason why we are wrong nor offer any other interpretation-please do so.Lance this was written in the late 1700(s) by Adam Clark which I believe is connected to Rev. 19:7-10 which I am copying in the below.John will find verse 10 interesting. 1Th 4:18 - Comfort one another with these words - Strange saying! comfort a man with the information that he is going to appear before the judgment-seat of God! Who can feel comfort from these words? That man alone with whose spirit the Spirit of God bears witness that his sins are blotted out, and the thoughts of whose heart are purified by the inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit, so that he can perfectly love him, and worthily magnify his name. Reader, thou art not in a safe state unless it be thus with thee, or thou art hungering and thirsting after righteousness. If so, thou shalt be filled; for it is impossible that thou shouldst be taken away in thy sins, while mourning after the salvation of God. They that seek shall find. cd: And what words are we to comfort each other with? 1Th 4:16 - The Lord himself - That is: Jesus Christ shall descend from heaven; shall descend in like manner as he was seen by his disciples to ascend, i.e. in his human form, but now infinitely more glorious; for thousands of thousands shall minister unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand shall stand before him; for the Son of man shall come on the throne of his glory: but who may abide the day of his coming, or stand when he appeareth? With a shout - Or order, e? ?e?e?sµat?? and probably in these words: Arise, ye dead, and come to judgment; which order shall be repeated by the archangel, who shall accompany it with the sound of the trump of God, whose great and terrible blasts, like those on mount Sinai, sounding louder and louder, shall shake both the heavens and the earth! Observe the order of this terribly glorious day: 1. Jesus, in all the dignity and splendor of his eternal majesty, shall descend from heaven to the mid region, what the apostle calls the air, somewhere within the earths atmosphere. 2. Then the ?e?e?sµa, shout or order, shall be given for the dead to arise. 3. Next the archangel, as the herald of Christ, shall repeat the order, Arise, ye dead, and come to judgment! 4. When all the dead in Christ are raised, then the trumpet shall sound, as the signal for them all to flock together to the throne of Christ. It was by the sound of the trumpet that the solemn assemblies, under the law, were convoked; and to such convocations the
Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Isn't it though? Maybe I just don't see myself for who I really am? Duh! - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 08:31 Subject: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences It is an irony or ironies that Lance Muir himself would deign to write the following about another person .. "Should you wish to continue to pontificate from on high then, we shall not hear matters of substance. We shall only hear you judge us. (something you seem to do regularly)" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] We (DM JT) read me just fine, says DM. I misread them, says DM. What, IMO, is actually being said is that the two of you may warn, judge, malign and critique from some mythical position you believe yourselves to occupy. I, and according to the two of you, others as well, simply don't understand you. (have you sought professional help on this?). I (we) await your 'teaching' on Who Jesus Is, DM. It may elicit an 'Amen' from one and all. It may not. Should you wish to continue to pontificate from on high then, we shall not hear matters of substance. We shall only hear you judge us. (something you seem to do regularly) - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: January 15, 2006 07:58Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Because when we read you, we see a constant effort to misrepresent us and try to catch us in our words just as the scholars and Pharisees did to Jesus. On the other hand, the feedback you give us from how we represent you tells us that we are reading and understanding you just fine. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:53 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences It fascinates me that both yourself and DM believe that readers/participants on TT do not 'know' you. You both have no hesitation to say that you 'know' us. Why is that, Judy (DM)? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 16:47 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the "mind of Christ" Gary because you are off into another orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth (one delves into humanity, ppl their thoughts bec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's view makes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
I'm having a little difficulty 'interpreting' you on this, Dean. Let's, rather than drag on what I believe to be a 'go nowhere' conversation, bring this to a rapid conclusion. IMO, one can preach what you believe eschatalogically, and, even if incorrect, women/men may be illumined as to their participation in Christ. IMO, this sort of thing happens, globally, every hour of every day. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 09:15 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 8:40:26 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Let's break the response down into two parts, Dean. Part #1:Are you aware that the majority of believing Bible scholars no longer support this 'teaching'? Are you also aware of the history of this teaching throughout the last 2,000 years? Are you comfortable with fellow believers coming to a thoughtful understanding of this 'teaching' that differs from your own? cd: Lance there are questions (such as a clearer separation from Christ return to start His earthly rule and which points to the timing of this event)on this teaching -in my mind- that need answers soI give this teaching to other people with the knowledge that some will seek to tear it down and in doing so I can learn more-so yes I am comfortable with the contributions of others-but may not always agree-as thus far the clearer image is being reflected. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 08:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:46:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES! Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this) then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever. Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this 'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you. cd: Yes Lance what you offer matters to me as I am here to learn and to offer what helpI can to others as this is what my master ordered.Having said that back to the passage in question Thess 4:13-18. How do you interpret this passage to mean? The wording is speaking of a future event and actually states :" For if we believe that Christ died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"-what else can this mean. Lance I read you saying we are wrong but you don't offer no reason why we are wrong nor offer any other interpretation-please do so.Lance this was written in the late 1700(s) by Adam Clark which I believe is connected to Rev. 19:7-10 which I am copying in the below.John will find verse 10 interesting. 1Th 4:18 - Comfort one another with these words - Strange saying! comfort a man with the information that he is going to appear before the judgment-seat of God! Who can feel comfort from these words? That man alone with whose spirit the Spirit of God bears witness that his sins are blotted out, and the thoughts of whose heart are purified by the inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit, so that he can perfectly love him, and worthily magnify his name. Reader, thou art not in a safe state unless it be thus with thee, or thou art hungering and thirsting after righteousness. If so, thou shalt be filled; for it is impossible that thou shouldst be taken away in thy sins, while mourning after the salvation of God. They that seek shall find. cd: And what words are we to comfort each other with? 1Th 4:16 - The Lord himself - That is: Jesus Christ shall descend from heaven; shall desce
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
DAVEH: Are you reading tea leafs, Dean? :-D Dean Moore wrote: DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
- Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 9:36:08 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I'm having a little difficulty 'interpreting' you on this, Dean. Let's, rather than drag on what I believe to be a 'go nowhere' conversation, bring this to a rapid conclusion. IMO, one can preach what you believe eschatalogically, and, even if incorrect, women/men may be illumined as to their participation in Christ. IMO, this sort of thing happens, globally, every hour of every day. cd: Just preach the best truth you know and when a deeper/better truth is revealed preach that.What more can one do?I have found that the former usually support the latter as God's word is alive and deeper revelations are ongoing. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 09:15 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 8:40:26 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Let's break the response down into two parts, Dean. Part #1:Are you aware that the majority of believing Bible scholars no longer support this 'teaching'? Are you also aware of the history of this teaching throughout the last 2,000 years? Are you comfortable with fellow believers coming to a thoughtful understanding of this 'teaching' that differs from your own? cd: Lance there are questions (such as a clearer separation from Christ return to start His earthly rule and which points to the timing of this event)on this teaching -in my mind- that need answers soI give this teaching to other people with the knowledge that some will seek to tear it down and in doing so I can learn more-so yes I am comfortable with the contributions of others-but may not always agree-as thus far the clearer image is being reflected. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 08:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:46:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES! Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this) then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever. Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this 'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you. cd: Yes Lance what you offer matters to me as I am here to learn and to offer what helpI can to others as this is what my master ordered.Having said that back to the passage in question Thess 4:13-18. How do you interpret this passage to mean? The wording is speaking of a future event and actually states :" For if we believe that Christ died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"-what else can this mean. Lance I read you saying we are wrong but you don't offer no reason why we are wrong nor offer any other interpretation-please do so.Lance this was written in the late 1700(s) by Adam Clark which I believe is connected to Rev. 19:7-10 which I am copying in the below.John will find verse 10 interesting. 1Th 4:18 - Comfort one another with these words - Strange saying! comfort a man with the information that he is going to appear before the judgment-seat of God! Who can feel comfort from these words? That man alone with whose spirit the Spirit of God bears witness that his sins are blotted out, and the thoughts of whose heart are purified by the inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit, so that he can perfectly love him, and worthily magnify his name. Reader, thou art not in a safe state unless it be thus with thee, or thou art hungering and thirsting after righteousness. If so, thou shalt be filled; for it is impossible that thou shouldst be taken away in thy sins, while mourning after the salvation of God. They that seek shall find. cd: And what words are we to comfort each other with? 1Th 4:16 - The Lord himself - That is: Jesus Christ shall descend from heaven; shall descend in like manner as he was seen by his disciples to ascend, i.e. in his human form, but now infinitely more glorious; for thousands of thousands shall minister unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand shall stand before him; for the Son of man shall come on the throne of his glory: but who may abide the day of his coming, or stand when he
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
- Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 12:27:53 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences DAVEH: Are you reading tea leafs, Dean? :-D cd: No, I am reading the space between the tea leafs.Theytell more than the leafs do:-)Dean Moore wrote: DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him..-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
AMEN Dean!! - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 12:38 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 9:36:08 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I'm having a little difficulty 'interpreting' you on this, Dean. Let's, rather than drag on what I believe to be a 'go nowhere' conversation, bring this to a rapid conclusion. IMO, one can preach what you believe eschatalogically, and, even if incorrect, women/men may be illumined as to their participation in Christ. IMO, this sort of thing happens, globally, every hour of every day. cd: Just preach the best truth you know and when a deeper/better truth is revealed preach that.What more can one do?I have found that the former usually support the latter as God's word is alive and deeper revelations are ongoing. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 09:15 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 8:40:26 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Let's break the response down into two parts, Dean. Part #1:Are you aware that the majority of believing Bible scholars no longer support this 'teaching'? Are you also aware of the history of this teaching throughout the last 2,000 years? Are you comfortable with fellow believers coming to a thoughtful understanding of this 'teaching' that differs from your own? cd: Lance there are questions (such as a clearer separation from Christ return to start His earthly rule and which points to the timing of this event)on this teaching -in my mind- that need answers soI give this teaching to other people with the knowledge that some will seek to tear it down and in doing so I can learn more-so yes I am comfortable with the contributions of others-but may not always agree-as thus far the clearer image is being reflected. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 08:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:46:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES! Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this) then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever. Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this 'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you. cd: Yes Lance what you offer matters to me as I am here to learn and to offer what helpI can to others as this is what my master ordered.Having said that back to the passage in question Thess 4:13-18. How do you interpret this passage to mean? The wording is speaking of a future event and actually states :" For if we believe that Christ died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"-what else can this mean. Lance I read you saying we are wrong but you don't offer no reason why we are wrong nor offer any other interpretation-please do so.Lance this was written in the late 1700(s) by Adam Clark which I believe is connected to Rev. 19:7-10 which I am copying in the below.John will find verse 10 i
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Such an appraoch makes God and His ability to accomplish the impossible in our lives all the more apparent. It gives credit to God and puts the preacher, teacher, evangelist, pastor, theologican in thier place !! Amen to the conclusion of this thread. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] AMEN Dean!! - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 12:38 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 9:36:08 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I'm having a little difficulty 'interpreting' you on this, Dean. Let's, rather than drag on what I believe to be a 'go nowhere' conversation, bring this to a rapid conclusion. IMO, one can preach what you believe eschatalogically, and, even if incorrect, women/men may be illumined as to their participation in Christ. IMO, this sort of thing happens, globally, every hour of every day. cd: Just preach the best truth you know and when a deeper/better truth is revealed preach that.What more can one do?I have found that the former usually support the latter as God's word is alive and deeper revelations are ongoing. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 09:15 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 8:40:26 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Let's break the response down into two parts, Dean. Part #1:Are you aware that the majority of believing Bible scholars no longer support this 'teaching'? Are you also aware of the history of this teaching throughout the last 2,000 years? Are you comfortable with fellow believers coming to a thoughtful understanding of this 'teaching' that differs from your own? cd: Lance there are questions (such as a clearer separation from Christ return to start His earthly rule and which points to the timing of this event)on this teaching -in my mind- that need answers soI give this teaching to other people with the knowledge that some will seek to tear it down and in doing so I can learn more-so yes I am comfortable with the contributions of others-but may not always agree-as thus far the clearer image is being reflected. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 08:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:46:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Any errors in the passage, Dean? No, I know of none. Any errors in the interpretation, Dean? YES! Dean:IMO, JT DM occupy a position wherein they believe that their 'reading' of Scripture is 'inspired'. IMO, they believe that God has promised such an 'inspired' reading to be available to all true believers. IFF I've not mischaracterized them (I'm open to correction on this) then, this is a rather huge error! This is particularly important for DM as he believes himself to be a 'prophet' of some sort. Also, he is in a position to influence the thinking of many. All this to say, Dean, that those who hold to such an understanding are not likely open to any correction whatsoever. Dangerous stuff, Dean! Therefore, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from this 'rapture thingy' should it matter much to you. cd: Yes Lance what you offer matters to me as I am here to learn and to offer what helpI can to others as this is what my master ordered.Having said that back to the passage in question Thess 4:13-18. How do you interpret this passage to mean? The wording is speaking of a future event and actually states :" For if we believe that Christ died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"-what else can this mean. Lance I read you saying we are wrong but you don't offer no reason why we are wrong nor offer any other interpretation-please do so.Lance this was written in the late 1700(s) by Adam Clark which I believe is connected to Rev. 19:7-10 which I am copying in the below.John will find verse 10 interesting. 1Th 4:18 - Comfort one another with these words - Strange saying! comfort a man with the information that he is going to appear before the judgment-seat of God! Who can feel comfort from these words? That man alone with whose spirit the Spirit of God bears witness that his sins are blotted out, and the thoughts of whose heart are purified by the inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit, so that he can perfectly love him, and worthily magnify his name. Reader, thou art not in a safe state unless it be thus with thee, or thou art hungering and thirsting after righteousness. If so, thou shalt be filled; for it is impossible that thou shouldst be taken away in thy sins, while mourning after the salvation of God.
Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Because when we read you, we see a constant effort to misrepresent us and try to catch us in our words just as the scholars and Pharisees did to Jesus. On the other hand, the feedback you give us from how we represent you tells us that we are reading and understanding you just fine. David Miller.Lol - so when we repeatedly say "Once again you have misrepresentedour words," you become even more convinced that you "read us just fine !!!???" Interesting. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
As to your last question -- you know that I do not believe that one must be right right to be saved. I fear that the answer to your question is what you believe. The gospel you express on this site is the produce of a very different paradigm than mine. Not that I am right - but simply that we are most different. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote: You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote: Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller- Original Mes sage - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confu sion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe.If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOLI do have to ask you, however, that when you say, "an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint," are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian?I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the task He has initiated within me. If He has become a part of who I am, ontologically, then how can I be lost apart from an outright rebellion to his presense? With that in mind, I will answer your question in a single word, "Yes." David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I am sure I agree --- but I do not dismiss the relational impact (whether positive or negative) of those on this site. When I came to this forum, I was a supporter of David M, typically conservative (for lack of a better term) and an oft defender of Judy Taylor. And what have I learned? That few on this site have a clue as to the meaning of "liberal." that some on this site place concepts (their concepts which they confuse with divine concpet) as more important than continuing relationships. Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. That is how I see
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
David, you need to include the entire post to which you refer. The first quote is not something that I said as a point of fact, because, of course, I believe that repentance is something other than confession and netiehr plays a role in continuing our salvation. In other words, I do not confess sin because I am lost until I do. Jesus rebuked those who were already the Children of God !!! Seems like you should be preaching grace to the lost and do your rebuking in your own church !! jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote: You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote: Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller- Original Mes sage - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confu sion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe.If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOLI do have to ask you, however, that when you say, "an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint," are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian?I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the task He has initiated within me. If He has become a part of who I am, ontologically, then how can I be lost apart from an outright rebellion to his presense? With that in mind, I will answer your question in a single word, "Yes." David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I am sure I agree --- but I do not dismiss the relational impact (whether positive or negative) of those on this site. When I came to this forum, I was a supporter of David M, typically conservative (for lack of a better term) and an oft defender of Judy Taylor. And what have I learned? That few on this site have a clue as to the meaning of "liberal." that some on this site place concepts (their concepts which they confuse with divine concpet) as more important than continuing relationships. Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Mums the word of the day from the Bishop !! -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your memory fails you or, you lie. You've alleged many things concerning myself, Gary, John and, Bill. I ask those named to say so if they believe that I've spoken an untruth concerning you in this matter. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 07:26 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences You err Lance; what I mainly respond to is Garys and your gross misrepresentation of what I write and I think it safe to assume that the same applies to DavidM since he appears to be a thorn in your side. On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:53:46 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It fascinates me that both yourself and DM believe that readers/participants on TT do not 'know' you. You both have no hesitation to say that you 'know' us. Why is that, Judy (DM)? From: Judy Taylor You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the "mind of Christ" Gary because you are off intoanother orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth(onedelves intohumanity, ppl theirthoughtsbec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's viewmakes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Lance wrote: Thanks for this, DM. Will you now offer up an 'inspired' understanding of WHO JESUS IS? Jesus is Christ, the Anointed, the Son of the living God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
JD wrote: ... when we repeatedly say Once again you have misrepresented our words, you become even more convinced that you read us just fine !!!??? You are the only one I remember saying that, and it is because you can't tell the difference between when someone quotes you and when they reword what you are saying to get feedback concerning whether or not they are grasping your perspective. Nevertheless, yes, these comments of yours do help clarify your position. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:18 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Because when we read you, we see a constant effort to misrepresent us and try to catch us in our words just as the scholars and Pharisees did to Jesus. On the other hand, the feedback you give us from how we represent you tells us that we are reading and understanding you just fine. David Miller. Lol - so when we repeatedly say Once again you have misrepresented our words, you become even more convinced that you read us just fine !!!??? Interesting. jd -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
I know that you say that you do not believe that one must be right to be saved, but you do not realize that I do not believe one is saved by embracing the right philosophy. One is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, which results in righteousness being imparted to the believer apart from works. The fruit of that faith is good works being wrought in the life of the believer. This is my paradigm. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences As to your last question -- you know that I do not believe that one must be right right to be saved. I fear that the answer to your question is what you believe. The gospel you express on this site is the produce of a very different paradigm than mine. Not that I am right - but simply that we are most different. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote: You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote: Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller - Original Mes sage - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confu sion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe.If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL I do have to ask you, however, that when you say, "an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint," are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian?I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the task He has initiated within me. If He has become a part of who I am, ontologically, then how can I be lost apart from an outright rebellion to his presense? With that in mind, I will answer your question in a single word, "Yes." David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I am sure I agree --- but I do not dismiss the relational impact (whether positive or negative) of those on this site. When I came to this forum, I was a supporter
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
The entire post was included, John. Here we go again. I'm beginning to think that not only do I have trouble understanding you, but you have trouble understanding your own writing. :-) Jesus did not rebuke those who were already children of God. He rebuked Pharisees and hypocrites whose father was Satan. When I teach and preach in my church, the reception is generally different from public preaching and teaching. In church, it probably does not matter much what I say, people are looking for ways to agree with me and say amen for the most part. In public, while there are some who do that, most people are antagonistic to the very idea of God. They hate God and many that profess to be Christians are ashamed of God. Jews are generally curious as to whether as a professor of Jesus Christ I would condemn them for being Jewish. They love it when I call them God's chosen people and say that Jesus and most of his apostles were Jews. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences David, you need to include the entire post to which you refer. The first quote is not something that I said as a point of fact, because, of course, I believe that repentance is something other than confession and netiehr plays a role in continuing our salvation. In other words, I do not confess sin because I am lost until I do. Jesus rebuked those who were already the Children of God !!!Seems like you should be preaching grace to the lost and do your rebuking in your own church !! jd -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote: You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote: Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller - Original Mes sage - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: David Miller John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confu sion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe. If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL I do have to ask you, however, that when you say, an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint, are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian? I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the task He has initiated within me. If He has become a part of who I am, ontologically, then how can I be lost apart from an outright rebellion to his presense? With that in mind, I will answer your question in a single word, Yes. David Miller. - Original Message - From
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
We are going petty and I am not going to do it any more, David. Got it !! jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] The entire post was included, John. Here we go again. I'm beginning to think that not only do I have trouble understanding you, but you have trouble understanding your own writing. :-) Jesus did not rebuke those who were already children of God. He rebuked Pharisees and hypocrites whose father was Satan. When I teach and preach in my church, the reception is generally different from public preaching and teaching. In church, it probably does not matter much what I say, people are looking for ways to agree with me and say amen for the most part. In public, while there are some who do that, most people are antagonistic to the very idea of God. They hate God and many that profess to be Christians are ashamed of God. Jews are generall y curious as to whether as a professor of Jesus Christ I would condemn them for being Jewish. They love it when I call them God's chosen people and say that Jesus and most of his apostles were Jews. David Miller.- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] DifferencesDavid, you need to include the entire post to which you refer. The first quote is not something that I said as a point of fact, because, of course, I believe that repentance is something other than confession and netiehr plays a role in continuing our salvation. In other words, I do not confess sin because I am lost until I do. Jesus rebuked those who were already the Children of God !!! Seems like you should be preaching grace to the los t and do your rebuking in your own church !! jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John wrote:If you sin and do not repent, for whateverreason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote:You speak of rebuking and hell muhc moreofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote:Surely we would not check the same boxeson whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller - Original Mes sage - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confu sion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe. If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL I do have to ask you, however, that when you say, "an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint," are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian? I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Great !! -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know that you say that you do not believe that one must be right to be saved, but you do not realize that I do not believe one is saved by embracing the right philosophy. One is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, which results in righteousness being imparted to the believer apart from works. The fruit of that faith is good works being wrought in the life of the believer. This is my paradigm. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences As to your last question -- you know that I do not believe that one must be right right to be saved. I fear that the answer to your question is what you believe. The gospel you express on this site is the produce of a very different paradigm than mine. Not that I am right - but simply that we are most different. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. Not true, John. I cannot believe that you would argue such a point. John wrote: You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. That's because Jesus spoke of rebuking and hell much more often than you do. John wrote: Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL IMO, you overestimate our differences. If our differences are as severe as you make them out to be, then it would impossible for us both to be saved. Is that what you believe? David Miller & gt; - Original Mes sage - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences See below -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly miss His mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the sain t. John, the only confu sion on this is in your mind. No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe. If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOLI do have to ask you, however, that when you say, "an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint," are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian?I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the task He has initiated within me. If He has become a part of who I am, ontologically, then how can I be lost apart from an outright rebellion to his presense? With that in mind, I will answer your question in a single word, "Yes." David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] t.net To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I am sure I agree --- but I do not dismiss the relational impact (whether positive or negative) of those on this site. When I came to this forum, I was a supporter of David M, typically conservative (for lack of a better term) and an oft defender of Judy Taylor. And what have I learned? That few on this site have a clue as to the meaning of "liberal." tha
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
IOW, acc to the HS, through the Holy Bibles on many ppl's shelves, JC, the son of God, or, of the Father, God, himself, is God, Bro On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:53:16 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth [(onebible writer's later epistlesays, interestingly) "God has said, 'Never will I leave you..'; , acc to the ApJohn,JC said this:'..I will not leave you.. '] On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:50:04 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:||[DavidM:] Jesus is Christ, the Anointed, the Son of the living God.||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:21:08 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences are you street preachin' these days? cd: Yes but not as often as I should -I did preach as WCU yesterday. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
And where is Terry? I am not a student of the "rapture," but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I mean, what if it has already occured? Terry seems to be the only one missing!!! jd -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 9:58:12 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences And where is Terry? I am not a student of the "rapture," but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I mean, what if it has already occured? Terry seems to be the only one missing!!! jd cd: Hey now-I'm still here also so it didn't happen yet:-) -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
Never fear Dean, it's based on a faulty reading of
key texts so nobody's goin' anywhere. It is kind of on a par with Albert Barnes'
reading concerning the eternality of the Son.
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: January 14, 2006 10:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/14/2006 9:58:12 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
And where is Terry? I am not a student of the
"rapture," but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I mean,
what if it has already occured?
Terry seems to be the only one missing!!!
jd
cd: Hey now-I'm still here also so it didn't happen yet:-)
--
Original message -- From: "Dean Moore"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately.
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
..Bro, do
you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night?
:)
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
,,your
doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga
couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God,
'Immanuel' be damned?
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
are you
street preachin' these days?
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on
concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If
you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the
highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers
as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away
shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong?
No,I would think that you would realize some have more
knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate
manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in
my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can
learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here.
D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars
of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped
his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride.
Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in
our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as
soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand
don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are
trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know
it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and
if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is
Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even
agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs.
DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing
with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my
limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is
resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man
from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion
given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am
limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be
helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different
but one must know Jesus and the crucified one.
||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
O.Kkk. Man, are we going to have a good time we get together or what !! :o ) -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 9:58:12 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences And where is Terry? I am not a student of the "rapture," but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I mean, what if it has already occured? Terry seems to be the only one missing!!! jd cd: Hey now-I'm still here also so it didn't happen yet:-) -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
I was kind a like kiding, guys. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Never fear Dean, it's based on a faulty reading of key texts so nobody's goin' anywhere. It is kind of on a par with Albert Barnes' reading concerning the eternality of the Son. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 10:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 9:58:12 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences And where is Terry? I am not a student of the "rapture," but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I mean, what if it has already occured? Terry seems to be the only one missing!!! jd cd: Hey now-I'm still here also so it didn't happen yet:-) -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
how 'bout you doin'
exactly that,Bro, whilereducing the biblically communal'God
with us'to the more philosophically palatable'God with
Me'?
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:49:40 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
I would not damn
Emmanuel as He presented me to God and taught me ofGod
greatness
--
for
ref:
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/13/2006 11:28:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Differences
,,your
doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple
of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be
damned?
cd: My doctrine is as Judy's but we
will have some difference as God leads each one on a separate journey and
there are many parts to the same body.I would like to think my mind is being
shaped by God-with the thoughts of God. I would not damn Emmanuel as He
presented me to God and taught me ofGod greatness-yet God gave me to
Christ as His own which I hope to live up to-may God help me live up to that
which is Christ.In the below letter I stated that "Gary is into Gary" I did
this so we could come to this point of discussion. You are into your
expressive form of art which you enjoy presenting-weather or not other can
learn from this form-or even understand what you are saying is secondary to
what you love in this form of _expression_-ThereforeI conclude self is
more important than others to you and hence the statement.This is not to
belittle you but you "seem" to have much to offer the hearer-but if one
speaks in a language none can understand what gain does God receive from
your wo rk. Have you considered finding someone to interpret for you? If
not-then be silent as Paul ordered the church who were also speaking in
"tongues" that could not be understood.I mean this for your good
Gary.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
are you
street preachin' these days?
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment
on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and
asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math
is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in
grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses
students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would
realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an
appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the
trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can
learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in
my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he
ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is
blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught
somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see
this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding
that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it
behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward
Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing
around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they
would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to
truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his
beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom
dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my
limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by
the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited
knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you
and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any
feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as
people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified
one.
||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
My doctrine is as Judy's but we will have some difference as God leads each one on a separate journey and there are many parts to the same body And Judy does not believe the above. At least, she does not allow for the differences between herself and the likes of myself -- she suffering under the fantasy that my beliefs are not of God to the same degree that her's are. No one needs to get made about this, I suppose, but that is the way she believes. I do not see, at this time, the same thinking in your postings, Dean. jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] how 'bout you doin' exactly that,Bro, whilereducing the biblically communal'God with us'to the more philosophically palatable'God with Me'? On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:49:40 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would not damn Emmanuel as He presented me to God and taught me ofGod greatness -- for ref: - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:28:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? cd: My doctrine is as Judy's but we will have some difference as God leads each one on a separate journey and there are many parts to the same body.I would like to think my mind is being shaped by God-with the thoughts of God. I would not damn Emmanuel as He presented me to God and taught me ofGod greatness-yet God gave me to Christ as His own which I hope to live up to-may God help me live up to that which is Christ.In the below letter I stated that "Gary is into Gary" I did this so we could come to this point of discussion. You are into your expressive form of art which you enjoy presenting-weather or not other can learn from this form-or even understand what you are saying is secondary to what you love in this form of _expression_-ThereforeI conclude self is more important than others to you and hence the statement.This is not to belittle you but you "seem" to have much to offer the hearer-but if one speaks in a language none can understand what gain does God receive from your wo rk. Have you considered finding someone to interpret for you? If not-then be silent as Paul ordered the church who were also speaking in "tongues" that could not be understood.I mean this for your good Gary. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it-- sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts rather than those of Bob Dylan Gary Is this a problem for you? 'Immanuel' be damned? Oh well! Out of the abundance that fills the heart the mouth speaks..!!! cd: My doctrine is as Judy's but we will have some difference as God leads each one on a separate journey and there are many parts to the same body.I would like to think my mind is being shaped by God-with the thoughts of God. I would not damn Emmanuel as He presented me to God and taught me ofGod greatness-yet God gave me to Christ as His own which I hope to live up to-may God help me live up to that which is Christ.In the below letter I stated that "Gary is into Gary" I did this so we could come to this point of discussion. You are into your expressive form of art which you enjoy presenting-weather or not other can learn from this form-or even understand what you are saying is secondary to what you love in this form of _expression_-ThereforeI conclude self is more important than others to you and hence the statement.This is not to belittle you but you "seem" to have much to offer the hearer-but if one speaks in a language none can understand what gain does God receive from your wo rk. Have you considered finding someone to interpret for you? If not-then be silent as Paul ordered the church who were also speaking in "tongues" that could not be understood.I mean this for your good Gary. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
myth(onedelves intohumanity, ppl theirthoughtsbec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's viewmakes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
See below -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly missHis mark becauseHe has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confusion on this is in your mind.No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe. If you sin and do not repent, for whatever reason, will that single sin place you in hell. You speak of rebuking and hell muhc more ofter than I, of course. Surely we would not check the same boxes on whatever test !! LOL I do have to ask you, however, that when you say, "an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint," are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian? I am acknowledging God's guarantee to complete the task He has initiated within me. If He has become a part of who I am, ontologically, then how can I be lost apart from an outright rebellion to his presense? With that in mind, I will answer your question in a single word, "Yes." David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I am sure I agree --- but I do not dismiss the relational impact (whether positive or negative) of those on this site. When I came to this forum, I was a supporter of David M, typically conservative (for lack of a better term) and an oft defender of Judy Taylor. And what have I learned? That few on this site have a clue as to the meaning of "liberal." that some on this site place concepts (their concepts which they confuse with divine concpet) as more important than continuing relationships. Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly missHis mark becauseHe has become a part of the ontology of the saint. That is how I see the difference. jd -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/11/2006 7:59:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd cd: What I am trying to say is that there is more to Kevin than what you have seen. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years.And so,I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they everreally got tothe Gospel. "Christ," it see
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel or the "mind of Christ" Gary because you are off intoanother orbit. jt On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:27:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth(onedelves intohumanity, ppl theirthoughtsbec of the mind of Immanuel--Isaiah's viewmakes more sense of him than yours does) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:16:18 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone with the mind of Christ thinks on God's thoughts
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
cd: Well some people are going to be caught up into the air and some graves or going to open and all are going to be changed in a moments time-that is what the passage says -do you know an errors in this passage? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:17:23 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences Never fear Dean, it's based on a faulty reading of key texts so nobody's goin' anywhere. It is kind of on a par with Albert Barnes' reading concerning the eternality of the Son. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 10:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 9:58:12 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences And where is Terry? I am not a student of the "rapture," but what if there is [was] the Rapture? I mean, what if it has already occured? Terry seems to be the only one missing!!! jd cd: Hey now-I'm still here also so it didn't happen yet:-) -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
myth (the sound of what you say about him below isinsightful) On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:47:36 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You wouldn't know what my thoughts make of Isaiah's Immanuel .. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
DAVEH: Don't have much to add to any of the discussions. BTWIt wasn't my computer this time, but rather my ISP had a couple tough days earlier this week. Dean Moore wrote: cd: I don't know-but he has been quite lately. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/13/2006 11:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences ..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) O -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
John wrote: Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly missHis mark becauseHe has become a part of the ontology of the saint. John, the only confusion on this is in your mind.No matter how many times I tell you what I believe, you prefer to believe falsely about me. You are not even close to characterizing how I believe. Just because I do not believe that the law has been done away, as per the teaching of Jesus, but rather that it is the covenant of law that has been made obsolete by the sacrifice of Christ, does not mean that I believe that obedience is the path to God ala the Old Law. I'm not aware of anyone on TruthTalk right now who thinks that way. Slade did, who you got along with just fine because of his hippy era liberal bent, but he is not here anymore. If you gave me a multiple choice test, I would check the same box you would, that obedience is a response to the Indwelling. I also would check the box for a Christ of Spirit and grace. Your antinomian bias has confused you concerning what I believe. I do have to ask you, however, that when you say, "an indwelling that cannot possibly miss the mark because He has become a part of the ontology of the saint," are you claiming an ontological infallibility for yourself simply because you are a Christian? David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I am sure I agree --- but I do not dismiss the relational impact (whether positive or negative) of those on this site. When I came to this forum, I was a supporter of David M, typically conservative (for lack of a better term) and an oft defender of Judy Taylor. And what have I learned? That few on this site have a clue as to the meaning of "liberal." that some on this site place concepts (their concepts which they confuse with divine concpet) as more important than continuing relationships. Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly missHis mark becauseHe has become a part of the ontology of the saint. That is how I see the difference. jd -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/11/2006 7:59:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd cd: What I am trying to say is that there is more to Kevin than what you have seen. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years.And so,I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they everreally got tothe Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!"
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/12/2006 11:03:14 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences I am sure I agree --- but I do not dismiss the relational impact (whether positive or negative) of those on this site. When I came to this forum, I was a supporter of David M, typically conservative (for lack of a better term) and an oft defender of Judy Taylor. And what have I learned? That few on this site have a clue as to the meaning of "liberal." that some on this site place concepts (their concepts which they confuse with divine concpet) as more important than continuing relationships. Lance asked about the difference between the Christ of DM and JT and some others on this forum. There is so much confusion that one scarsely knows where to begin. Perhaps the best way to say it is this: they believe in a Christ of Law and grace and others believe in a Christ of Spirit and grace. The former insists that obedience is the path to God, ala the Old Law -- and the others believe that obedience is a response to the Indwelling - an indwelling that cannot possibly missHis mark becauseHe has become a part of the ontology of the saint. That is how I see the difference. jd -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/11/2006 7:59:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd cd: What I am trying to say is that there is more to Kevin than what you have seen. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years.And so,I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they everreally got tothe Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart f
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences
..Bro, do you think DaveHs computer crashed again last night? :) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:26:32 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ,,your doctrine's about like jt's ain't it--sorta like you are amonga couple of pplwhose mind isthe God-thoughts of God, 'Immanuel' be damned? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:19:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: are you street preachin' these days? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:18:12 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd:John -not to insult but I think to focus on concernment on you part would put most of these issues at rest. If you went and asked students at college:" what do you think the highest level of math is?" I think you would get different answers as studentsstudents vary in grade levels-would you then walk away shaking your head saying theses students have been taught wrong? No,I would think that you would realize some have more knowledge than others and relate to them in an appropriate manner-even to help the younger ones understand more-the trick- in my opinion- is to decide where to start and hopefully one can learn as they seek to help others.The same can be said here. D.Miller in my opinion could be one of the leading Bible scholars of our day if he ever outgrew the Church of God-which has trapped his doctoring and he is blind to this fact-which speaks of pride. Judy and I are caught somewhere between Calvinism and Armenians in our doctrine but we see this and want it out of our teachings as soon we can- but ar e finding that the teachings run deepand don't really know how to leave it behind. The "intellectuals" are trapped in Calvinism toward Catholicismand don't even know it as they focus on the "dancing around teachings" of Baxter-and if they did know one would doubt if they would care. Blaine is Mormon in belief and doctoring and will listen to truth and even agree with that truth but fail to incorporate that his beliefs. DaveH knows the truth butfear prevents himfrom dealing with that truth-the comfort zone has trapped him.. Izzy-in my limited knowledge of her-has a good handle on truth but is resisted by the flesh. Gary is into Gary.Perry is agreat man from my limited knowledge.This is all just my opinion given to help-for you and them not to attack.Note: that I am limited by my bias of self so any feedback offered would be helpful.The main point is go slow as people are different but one must know Jesus and the crucified one. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ
Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snipped Hi Bruce and everyone: We've just gotten in from over a week away at a family Reunion and am just reading mail... Will respond after I've had a few minutes to settle... Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I would think that thought and will (decision making) are capabilities of the spirit. Angels are spirits and they think and exercise their wills. What do you think, or what scriptures would you relate to such questions, sister? Your brother in Christ, Bruce Bruce, It seems to me that decisions can be made either by the flesh OR by the spirit, depending upon which one we are walking in when we make the decision. Why else would we be told to, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,? That is the whole problem; how do we ALWAYS make decisions in the spirit, rather than motivated by the flesh? To me, it seems that I must not make any decision in the emotion of the moment, but must remember to lay the flesh aside and allow the Spirit to lead me. Then am I talking about two different spirits; mine and His? Or are they one, now? But the unsaved also have a spirit, tooright Im confusing myself!!! J I also know the scripture stating that we sit with Him in heavenly places, but I dont see that that keeps my spirit from residing inside of my body on this earth. Otherwise, I am a very split personality! Perhaps that scripture refers to the fact that when we are walking in the leading of His Holy Spirit we are walking with the Lord, who is in heaven, and then are One? Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences in Christ?
Dear Judy, When I wrote:I think you are well aware, for example, that Jews (even believing Jews) have never been relieved of their responsibility relative to physical circumcision. But Gentiles have no such responsibility. See Acts 15. You responded:Believing Jews have no such responsibility Bruce because since the resurrection circumcision has been that of the heart and not the flesh, this explained by Gal 3:28 ie: there is no difference between. Dear Sister, I find this very hard to believe! If there was a big church council in Acts 15 which concluded that gentile believers did not need to be circumcised, why did not that same council also make clear that Jewish believers did not need to continue circumcision in the flesh as well??? It is because, when God commands something to be done FOREVER by a particular people, He does not change or cancel such a command in mid stream!! Judy, when I referred you to numerous scriptures that explain different responsibilities for Jews and Gentiles, bond and free and male and female, you responded: I see what you are saying Bruce, but the above pertains to what we do rather than who we are. Precisely! All responsibilities have to do with what we do! But the DIFFERENCES in responsibilities are due to DIFFERENCES in who we are! When I pointed out that scripture declares that we are dead to the law , You responded:Yes scripture does say that but we must understand that this declaration is conditional upon our walking after the Spirit. If the flesh remains active and kicking then we are not dead to the law because the law is judging the deeds of the flesh as we write. Dear sister, would you please go to Romans 7:4 and Galatians 2:19 and their surrounding contexts and show me the condition of which you speak. Both of these passages are speaking of A FACT OF HISTORY! (Not a conditional promise, i.e. If you do such and such you will die to the law.) When I wrote:As to the curse of the law, that too was fully dealt with for us by Christ! Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13 You responded:Yes, He was made a curse for us and He paid the price for our transgressions and iniquities. However, once more the conditions are that we repent and turn from them. Dear Judy, The statement of scripture in Gal.3:13 is Christ HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW...! Again, this is a stated fact of history and is NOT associated with any conditional clause at all! I also wrote:Since we are not under the law as children under a schoolmaster but have been adopted as sons Jews and Gentiles, bondmen and freemen and males and females can come together to minister mutually one to another as members in the body of Christ in which we are one. You responded:Yes potentially Bruce, but just as the Jews during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry were potentially the children of Abraham - but didn't walk in the faith of Abraham and so didn't receiving the blessings of Abraham. The exact same thing applies here. Dear sister, there is no reference at all in the text of scripture to the potentiality of which you speak! Paul was writing to the churches of Galatia (1:4) to brethren (1:11), to those who had received the Spirit (3:2). There was no question that these were regenerate people so they were already members in the Biody of Christ whether they were Jew, Greek, bond, free, male or female. Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ
Dear Judy, When I wrote: The church is composed of MEN AND WOMEN who are saved You responded:Actually today the professing church is composed of the mixed multitude but the Church Jesus returns for is the spirits of just men/women made perfect. The Church has been saved, is being saved, and will be saved. It is the soul that needs saving and this happens as we walk it out daily in the Spirit Dear Sister, I did not speak, nor does scripture speak of the professing church! The church of God in any community has never ever included even one false professor! The Lord knows them that are His and it is the Lord that adds to His church those that are being saved. Hebrews 12:23 does NOT say that the church is the spirits of just men made perfect! What is DOES say is this: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, The church is God's new covenant people, but the spirits of just men made perfect are the spirits of old testament saints! See Heb.11:40 Bruce _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ
Izzy, You asked:Would you care to define the differences between the spirit and soul ? Which part goes to heaven? Which part do you think with, or make decisions with, etc? Excellent questions sister! I Thess.5:23 makes clear that we are tripartite or 3 part beings: spirit, soul and body. I understand the spirit as that by which we can relate to or have fellowship and communication with God who is a Spirit. We may worship, pray, and have fellowship etc with God because we are spirits made in the image of God. I understand the soul as that which enables us to relate to or have communication with other souls. We may speak, love, hate, befriend, comfort, aggravate, encourage or discourage other souls. I understand our bodies as that which enables us to relate to the physical universe around us by way of our senses. All three need to be transformed in order to be in the kingdom of God! Re. our spirits, See John 3:3. (Notice this passage has to do with one's relationship to God.) Re. our souls, see I Cor.6:9-11. (Notice that this passage has to do with transformed relationships with other people!) Re. our bodies, see I Cor.15:50-54. (Notice that this passage has to do with the transformation of our bodies. Presently they are flesh and blood which are corruptible and mortal. But at the coming of the Lord they will be changed to be like th glorified body of the Lord Jesus which was flesh and bones but not flesh and blood. Luke 24:39 Christians do not go to heaven when they die as most of us have been wrongly taught! Rather, we are already seated with Christ in the heavenly places, (Eph 2:6). This is factually true of our spirits, but our bodies (with their 5 physical senses have no way of realizing spiritual realities!) So it is after we die and are delivered from the limitations of our bodies that we will truly experience what heaven is like, but we are already there in our spirits! I would think that thought and will (decision making) are capabilities of the spirit. Angels are spirits and they think and exercise their wills. What do you think, or what scriptures would you relate to such questions, sister? Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences in Christ?
I was in too much of a hurry (lots going on) and missed this part of your message, have now done what you recommended 'j' Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wrote: I've been a student of scripture for a long time Bruce and have never seen these different responsibilities. What is required of anyone who comes to Christ other than to be conformed to His image?... I'm curious about these 'different responsibilities' Bruce. What are they? We need to be careful not to put burdens upon people that the Lord is not requiring. Bruce: Judy, I think you are well aware, for example, that Jews (even believing Jews) have never been relieved of their responsibility relative to physical circumcision. But Gentiles have no such responsibility. See Acts 15 Judy: Believing Jews have no such responsibility Bruce because since the resurrection circumcision has been that of the heart and not the flesh, this explained by Gal 3:28 ie: there is no difference between. Bruce: Servants and masters have differing responsibilities. See Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22; Colossians 4:1; 1 Timothy 6:1; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:18 So too men and women have different responsibilities: See I Cor.11:1-16; I Cor.14:26-40; Ephesians 5:22-25; I Tim.2:8-15; 3:8-12; II Tim.2:2-7 etc Judy: I see what you are saying Bruce, but the above pertains to what we do rather than who we are. It is about our responsibility to walk in love toward those around us. Bruce: Dear Sister, I never claimed that the law had gone anywhere! It is still and will ever remain the scripture of which the theme is Christ! Nor did I ever claim that were were free from the law! What I did say is what scripture says, i.e. that we are not under the law. Scripture also declares that we are dead to the law. Judy: Yes scripture does say that but we must understand that this declaration is conditional upon our walking after the Spirit. If the flesh remains active and kicking then we are not dead to the law because the law is judging the deeds of the flesh as we write. Bruce: As to the curse of the law, that too was fully dealt with for us by Christ! Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13 Judy: Yes, He was made a curse for us and He paid the price for our transgressions and iniquities. However, once more the conditions are that we repent and turn from them. It is obvious that the majority who call themselves Christian have not done this because they are dressed in the curses rather than in Christ. Bruce: Since we are not under the law as children under a schoolmaster but have been adopted as sons Jews and Gentiles, bondmen and freemen and males and females can come together to minister mutually one to another as members in the body of Christ in which we are one. Judy: Yes potentially Bruce, but just as the Jews during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry were potentially the children of Abraham - but didn't walk in the faith of Abraham and so didn't receiving the blessings of Abraham. The exact same thing applies here. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ
Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Sister, I wholeheartedly agree with you that in the spiritual realm there is no difference. Jews and Gentiles, bondmen and freemen, and men and women are redeemed by the same blood, indwelt by the same Spirit, gifted by the same spirit, and are members in the same body, linked to the same Head. However, no church whether the Body of Christ, a church in a city or a church in a house is composed simply of spirits! Judy: Men/women are primarily spirit beings who have a soul and who live in a body. God is Spirit. Jesus is the image of the Father in the flesh and this is the image we are to be conformed to in Christ Bruce: The church is composed of MEN AND WOMEN who are saved. Judy: Actually today the professing church is composed of the mixed multitude but the Church Jesus returns for is the spirits of just men/women made perfect. The Church has been saved, is being saved, and will be saved. It is the soul that needs saving and this happens as we walk it out daily in the Spirit Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ
Bruce, Would you care to define the differences between the spirit and soul ? Which part goes to heaven? Which part do you think with, or make decisions with, etc? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ Dear Judy, You wrote:We need to understand that the scriptures relate spiritual truths. Sure a man and a woman have physiological differences but there is no difference spiritually between any of these groups and since our focus is on the Kingdom of God this is what we must communicate. This understanding is validated by Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe for there is no difference 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks whether slaves or free and we were all made to drink of one Spirit Col 3:11 A renewal in which thee is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcized and uncircumcized, barbarian, scythian, slave and freeman but Christ is all and in all Dear Sister, I wholeheartedly agree with you that in the spiritual realm there is no difference. Jews and Gentiles, bondmen and freemen, and men and women are redeemed by the same blood, indwelt by the same Spirit, gifted by the same spirit, and are members in the same body, linked to the same Head. However, no church whether the Body of Christ, a church in a city or a church in a house is composed simply of spirits! The church is composed of MEN AND WOMEN who are saved. Men and women are tripartite beings (spirit, soul, and body). It is because of differences in their tripartite beings that they have different roles and responsibilities. You wrote:We need to be careful that we don't turn the New Testament into a 'rule book'. BTW you never did say exactly what the differences you referred to are. I did refer you to numerous scriptures which make those different roles and responsibilities very clear. You can read them for yourself. Trust this helps, Bruce _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences in Christ
Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Judy, You wrote:So far as God is concerned putting on Christ means there is no difference, this is what Gal 3:28 says. Sister, I read Gal.3:28 over again, but I noticed that it does NOT say that there is no difference between Jews and Greeks, bond and free and male and female. Thank God for that! There are obviously many differences. But with all our differences we are all one in Christ. Judy: Hi Bruce, I agree that the word difference is not in this text. Gal 3:28 reads there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus However, I would like to point out that neither is the word communication in the text. We need to understand that the scriptures relate spiritual truths. Sure a man and a woman have physiological differences but there is no difference spiritually between any of these groups and since our focus is on the Kingdom of God this is what we must communicate. This understanding is validated by Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe for there is no difference 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks whether slaves or free and we were all made to drink of one Spirit Col 3:11 A renewal in which thee is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcized and uncircumcized, barbarian, scythian, slave and freeman but Christ is all and in all We need to be careful that we don't turn the New Testament into a 'rule book'. BTW you never did say exactly what the differences you referred to are. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ
Dear Judy, You wrote:We need to understand that the scriptures relate spiritual truths. Sure a man and a woman have physiological differences but there is no difference spiritually between any of these groups and since our focus is on the Kingdom of God this is what we must communicate. This understanding is validated by Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe for there is no difference 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks whether slaves or free and we were all made to drink of one Spirit Col 3:11 A renewal in which thee is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcized and uncircumcized, barbarian, scythian, slave and freeman but Christ is all and in all Dear Sister, I wholeheartedly agree with you that in the spiritual realm there is no difference. Jews and Gentiles, bondmen and freemen, and men and women are redeemed by the same blood, indwelt by the same Spirit, gifted by the same spirit, and are members in the same body, linked to the same Head. However, no church whether the Body of Christ, a church in a city or a church in a house is composed simply of spirits! The church is composed of MEN AND WOMEN who are saved. Men and women are tripartite beings (spirit, soul, and body). It is because of differences in their tripartite beings that they have different roles and responsibilities. You wrote:We need to be careful that we don't turn the New Testament into a 'rule book'. BTW you never did say exactly what the differences you referred to are. I did refer you to numerous scriptures which make those different roles and responsibilities very clear. You can read them for yourself. Trust this helps, Bruce _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] differences
David: The temple grounds were divided into four courts. There was the inner court, where only the priests could go (the temple proper). There was a court for Jewish men, a court for Jewish women, and a Gentile court, for those who were not born Jews but who wanted to worship the true God. The money changers were set up in the Gentile court, exchanging foriegn currency for local currency so that those making a trip from other countries could pay the temple tax. Since some of these people also came from great distances, they found it easier to purchase a lamb to sacrifice from local sources than say to drive one from Egypt. The money changers were in collusion with the priests, paying them for the use of the court and selling animals that the priests would find to be spotless when offered for sacrifice. If there were any Gentile Christians in the Jerusalem Church gathering, they would have had to meet in the Gentile court, as they would not qualify to enter the other courts. We have a building with a roof and no walls on our land, as do many people around here. It is called a pole barn. A rectangle of poles, set eight to ten feet apart, with a metal roof, under which tractors and peanut wagons are parked. I meant what I said. If you think that would be rather interesting, drive through north Florida and south Georgia and you will see lots of them. Personally, I find them a little boring. The early Christians were bold because they were filled with the Spirit, but they were not suicidal. If they had tried to enter the inner court, they would have been killed by the temple guards, who were there to do exactly that to anyone but a priest who attempted to enter. This next is pure speculation on my part, and something to consider as a possibility, but certainly not verified. In Jerusalem, you paid a high price for becoming a Christian. In many cases people were rejected by their families, their friends, and their employers. You could become a Christian today, and have no home tomorrow. Additionally, many of these new Christians were slaves, and had no home to begin with. They needed a place to meet , to encourage one another, and to share Christ. If they had chosen to do it on the temple roof or at the town dump, I would still admire them. They met where they could. I am the wimp. I like to meet in a house. Let me know when you start your book. I will proof read it for you. :-) Terry - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] differences Terry wrote: The Jerusalem Christians met on temple grounds, but never inside the temple. I'm not sure what you mean by never inside the temple. Wasn't Jesus in the Temple when he cast out the money changers? When the angel of the Lord freed the apostles from prison, didn't he tell them to go speak in the temple (Acts 5:20)? Terry wrote: As I understand it, they met in an area that had a roof but no walls. I think you mean walls but no roof? It would be rather interesting to see a building with a roof but no walls, wouldn't it. :-) Yes, the bulk of the Temple were courts, meaning, walled areas without a roof. I'm not sure what distinction this makes in your mind. It was still a building that demarcated an area for religious worship. Jesus certainly considered it as such when he cast out the money changers, and the New Testament indicates that the early Christians used the Temple for this purpose, to praise and worship God, to pray, and to read and teach God's Word. One day, perhaps after I retire, I hope to write a book about the way the first century Christians participated in the religious institutions of their society and its implication for believers who meet in home churches today. Terry wrote: I would assume that the Christians stayed away from the temple proper in order not to incur the wrath of the Priests and Pharisees. I think you underestimate the early Christians. They were not wimpy sissies like so many Christians in our society. They went into the Temple and preached, and yes, they did incur the wrath of priests and Pharisees. See Acts 5, Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, etc. Also see how they followed the example of Jesus from John 7:28, Luke 21:37-38, Luke 22:53, Mat. 21:14-15. Terry wrote: As to synagogues, I was under the impression that they could only be such if they had ten Jewish men meeting, and it was the group, not the building, that bore the title in that time. Most of the apostles were Jewish men, and there were thousands upon thousands of Jewish men who believed in the Lord. The term synagogue is much like the word church, which first has application to the assembly (and still does), then comes to refer also to the place where the assembly meets. We have excavated religious buildings that go back to the 3rd century B.C. and believe that they existed even
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael: Sounds as though you agonized over your decision in much the same way that we did. Some in our group are still unable to break away from the institutional setting.. Michael D: It did take some adjustment as I mentioned. The thing with me though, is that I wanted to share all of the things I was learning with 'the Pastor' and have the people 'see the light'. I would try to go to prayer meetings, Bible studies etc, and the Spirit of God would expressly say to me 'No'. I often rejected that, saying that it could not be God, because I was trying to be faithful. He had to show me very dramatically, that I was being disobedient... This was less than two months into my intro to the truths about the Church. Now, God might not deal with every one in exactly the same way as with me. Mine was intense and I believe that He had a purpose for dealing with me this way. We meet on Tuesday evening, so they can come to home church without missing the traditional Sunday morning thing. I have seen that here in my country as well.I used to meet with some folks who saw the shortcomings of the Church, and would have Sunday night meetings at an assistant Pastor's home.Eventually, nothing came of it, partly because there was no break with the traditional alliances. One thing God stresses is thatnew wine needs new wineskins. The old will burst if the new is poured intothem. Those who know have to pray for the revelations tocome to the rest of the Body. One big key to it, I believe, is the unity of the Church a la NT pattern. In fact,when the Lord brought me into this, I was not seeking it, and had already rejected it from the little exposure I had. Ido pray that God does it for many more. Last night I painted a picture of home Church and institutional Church that was a fair comparison, but I fear it made the institutional Church look like the villan in the plot and that was not my intention. I have no doubt that it is far from what God would have the coming together of the saints be, but at the same time, He has used what He had to work with in a powerful way. I was saved in a church,I was a teacher in a church (Sunday school), and I was a deacon in a church. I was even allowed to fill the pulpit a few times when they were really desperate for a warm body. I Know that these are not bad people mocking God. They are good people (as good as people ever are) who do not know any better. Michael D: For the most part they are. God needs voices today to call the Church out of these clutches into the liberty of the Spirit. This is not to sound arrogant or condemning of others, but a realization of where God wants to take us as the Body. It is what we are all taught, and until you start digging for answers in God's word, you live in ignorant bliss. I think that because most of these folk are operating in ignorance, and not in deliberate disobedience, the Lord continues to bless them and use them. Because He does, missionaries are sent all over the world, and Bibles are distributed wherever they go. Amen! People are saved that we in the home Church could never reach. I wouldn't say could never... Probably, folks need to see the need for extensive outreach to be a part of the 'Home Church' reality. Actually, I don't too like the label 'Home Church' as an identifier. It is discriptive, but could be limiting. Folks ask me if theChurch should only meet in homes, and I say notnecessarily, but in a situation where proper NT operation is not hindered. To me, the key is thefree expression of the life of theChurch. Location isonly a facilitator. I am not at all sure that the leaders even know how far off course they are. Agreed. They have been taught to think what they think, by people with titles, who they respect. If a doctor of divinity doesn't have the right answers, they figure,who does? Many today appreciate that a DDiv is no passport to truth, but because of tradition still interpret the things that the Bible says through the eyes those lenses, not understanding the original context within which they were presented. For instance, when Paul says the ministry gifts is for the perfecting of the saints, folks dont realize that that is supposed to occur right in the regular meeting of the church where the believers utilize their gifts and mature before the Body many times in trial and error, a la Corinthians. I have been privileged to have a close relationship with a few pastors in my life, and sadly, some of them are more ignorant than the "Lay" people, and are determined to stay that way. Some cannot see the error, and some do not want to.It would end their employment.Because of these relationships, I can tell you that some would keep preaching if they never got a dime for their effort, and some would seek a newjob tomorrow if the paycheck stopped. Some have a calling, and some have a career. There is no person in the world that I respect more than a street preacher, and no one I
RE: [TruthTalk] differences
Terry wrote: The temple grounds were divided into four courts. Actually, there were six courts. A friend of mine did his Ph.D. dissertation on Herod's Temple, and we invited him many years ago to share at our home church on his work. Your four court analysis apparently combines courts 2 3 and courts 4 5 together. 1. Court of the Gentiles, which included Solomon's porch, a portico / colonnade along the Eastern Side of the Temple. 2. Sacred Enclosure (3 feet higher) 3. Court of Women (3 feet higher), accessible by both men and women, also called the Treasury, where the story of the widow's mite took place. 4. Court of Israel (10 feet higher) 5. Court of Priests (3 feet higher) 6. House of God (8 feet higher), divided into two compartments, the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies (or Most Holy Place). Terry wrote: If there were any Gentile Christians in the Jerusalem Church gathering, they would have had to meet in the Gentile court, as they would not qualify to enter the other courts. Of course, and we know that this was part of the Temple where they did gather. Solomon's porch is mentioned as being one area of the Temple frequented by both Jesus and his apostles and later Christians (see John 10:23, Acts 3:11, Acts 5:12). Solomon's porch was the eastern side of the Gentile court. Nevertheless, keep in mind that the Jerusalem church was primarily Jewish. These Jewish believers had no problems entering into the areas not allowed to Gentiles, and we have specific references in Scripture showing both Jesus and his apostles in Acts entering into the area of the Temple forbidden to Gentiles. Most notably, this would be the treasury, also known as the court of women (see John 8:20, Mark 12:41, Acts 5, etc.). If you remember, Paul was falsely accused of bringing Gentiles into the restricted area in Acts 21, and Peter and John healed the lame man in Acts 5 as they were entering into the Treasury. I just trust the Bible when it says that the Christians in Jerusalem met in the Temple. Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord IN THE TEMPLE, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Act 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together INTO THE TEMPLE at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. Act 3:2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered INTO THE TEMPLE; Act 3:3 Who seeing Peter and John ABOUT TO GO INTO THE TEMPLE asked an alms. Act 5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Act 5:20 Go, stand and SPEAK IN THE TEMPLE TO THE PEOPLE all the words of this life. Act 5:21 And when they heard that, THEY ENTERED INTO THE TEMPLE EARLY IN THE MORNING, AND TAUGHT. ... Act 5:25 Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people. Act 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; ... Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. Act 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. Act 5:42 And DAILY IN THE TEMPLE, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ. Perhaps I should mention that there are two Greek words translated Temple in the New Testament: hieron and naos. Hieron is the whole entire temple, including the court of the Gentiles, but naos appears to refer to the center shrine itself composed of the holy place and the most holy place. When I speak of the early believers meeting in the Temple, I am referring to hieron. Terry wrote: We have a building with a roof and no walls on our land, as do many people around here. It is called a pole barn. ... I meant what I said. A pole barn, ok, I see what you are getting at. But the Temple was not a pole barn! It's interesting how we can look at the same structure and be drawn to different aspects of it in our minds. I am drawn to the fact that there were walls around these courts and a lack of roof over much of the Temple. However, there were colonnades at the edges of the court of the Gentiles, and also along the edge of the Treasury (court of women). These colonnades are evidently what you are drawn to when you look at Herod's Temple. Solomon's porch is one such colonnade
Re: [TruthTalk] differences
David: My view of first century Christianity is preachers in the streets preaching to the lost rather than Clergy in air conditioned comfort preaching to the choir. It is Peter saying Silver and gold have I none, rather than Clergy with salary, and insurance and car allowance and secretary. It is people meeting in homes and using what they had to feed the poor rather than building a higher steeple or buying bigger stained glass windows. It is Paul working his way across the world to tell people about Jesus, rather than a missionary who needs three thousand dollars a month in support so he can go live among and witness to people making two hundred dollars a year. It is about brothers and sisters in Christ actually knowing one another. It is about deacons who are servants instead of the people who tell the preacher what to do. It is people who actually tell other people about Christ, rather than hiring a Reverend to do it for them. Tell me what's wrong with that picture. Think for a moment about how much good could be done for the needy if the more than three hundred thousand Pastors in this country preached for the Lord instead of for a living, and used that money for good works. If that sounds like a lot, throw in the money spent on mortgages and flowers and janitors and song leaders and choir robes and electricity. Christianity has become big business As to Frank Viola, I have never met the man. However, I have also never met anyone who was there during the first three centuries, so the only way I have of knowing what went on there is to read what others have documented. Actually, he points out that someone met in a building as early as 180 A.D., but says Constantine was the one who made church buildings not only common, but ornate. Terry wrote: We just aren't in total agreement on this one. Why not? Is it because Frank Viola wrote that the first church building started with Constantine? Or is it because your view of first century Christianity is one where believers huddled secretly in homes for fear of persecution from unbelieving Jews? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] differences
Great posts on the early church, TT'rs. It seems that in first century the early Christians would evangelize during the week, and meet on the first day of the week with other Christian believers for fellowship, and praise and worship. It seems that to combine them into a single service, as we do today, compromises both worship and evangelism. Perry From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] differences Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:02:57 -0600 David: My view of first century Christianity is preachers in the streets preaching to the lost rather than Clergy in air conditioned comfort preaching to the choir. It is Peter saying Silver and gold have I none, rather than Clergy with salary, and insurance and car allowance and secretary. It is people meeting in homes and using what they had to feed the poor rather than building a higher steeple or buying bigger stained glass windows. It is Paul working his way across the world to tell people about Jesus, rather than a missionary who needs three thousand dollars a month in support so he can go live among and witness to people making two hundred dollars a year. It is about brothers and sisters in Christ actually knowing one another. It is about deacons who are servants instead of the people who tell the preacher what to do. It is people who actually tell other people about Christ, rather than hiring a Reverend to do it for them. Tell me what's wrong with that picture. Think for a moment about how much good could be done for the needy if the more than three hundred thousand Pastors in this country preached for the Lord instead of for a living, and used that money for good works. If that sounds like a lot, throw in the money spent on mortgages and flowers and janitors and song leaders and choir robes and electricity. Christianity has become big business As to Frank Viola, I have never met the man. However, I have also never met anyone who was there during the first three centuries, so the only way I have of knowing what went on there is to read what others have documented. Actually, he points out that someone met in a building as early as 180 A.D., but says Constantine was the one who made church buildings not only common, but ornate. Terry wrote: We just aren't in total agreement on this one. Why not? Is it because Frank Viola wrote that the first church building started with Constantine? Or is it because your view of first century Christianity is one where believers huddled secretly in homes for fear of persecution from unbelieving Jews? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] differences
Terry wrote: My view of first century Christianity is preachers in the streets preaching to the lost rather than Clergy in air conditioned comfort preaching to the choir. I think we have the same heart here, but my view also includes the laity preaching to the congregation at church as well as preaching in the market place. Terry wrote: It is Peter saying Silver and gold have I none, rather than Clergy with salary, and insurance and car allowance and secretary. I hear you, but also understand that this happened at church when Peter and John were going into the church. This did not happen on the street. (I'm substituting church for temple because the temple was church for them.) Terry wrote: It is people meeting in homes and using what they had to feed the poor rather than building a higher steeple or buying bigger stained glass windows. I hear you, Terry. Before I had left institutional Christianity in 1987, I was called upon my pastor to answer why I was one of only five people out of more than 1,000 church members who voted against spending $85,000 to extend the balcony to seat 100 more people, and $12,000 to put a new steeple on the sanctuary. I told him that there was an usher in the church whose electricity and water had been turned off five days ago. Something doesn't seem right about our priorities. Terry wrote: Think for a moment about how much good could be done for the needy if the more than three hundred thousand Pastors in this country preached for the Lord instead of for a living, and used that money for good works. If that sounds like a lot, throw in the money spent on mortgages and flowers and janitors and song leaders and choir robes and electricity. Christianity has become big business. I have thought long and hard about that. When Frank Viola and I were teamed up in the 1980's and 1990's, I thought that we could shake the community by doing it the way that you are talking about. I learned, however, that the problem wasn't so much the structure, nor was it a clever shifting of resources from building programs to people. The problem was the heart of each Christian. In other words, you can change the wineskin, but if the wine isn't there, you don't really change anything. I setup an incredible resource network for helping the poor, hoping that the believers meeting in homes would pitch in and do what you are talking about. But I found that many Christians still wanted to have their comfortable home church meetings where they could complain about the churches with all the money not doing enough rather than sacrifice themselves to help the poor. I don't want to make it sound all bad. We did a lot of good things too. We fixed people's roofs, housed the homeless, helped people get jobs, led many people to the Lord and baptized many. However, we didn't really exceed in a significant way what institutional organizations were doing. In fact, in many ways, they continued to exceed our efforts because there were not enough of us getting involved and paying the price that needed to be paid. I'm all for the kind of Christianity that you are talking about, but home church by itself is not the answer. People need to become transformed in their heart and catch the vision of Christ. They have to be willing to expend themselves and suffer for the cause of Christ. They have to be willing to preach and teach other Christians that disagree with them, in the spirit of meekness. Getting comfortable in home church is fine, but it can be just as big a mistake as institutional Christianity if it is not done right. I know people in institutional Christianity who have much greater relationships than those in home church. Take Frank Viola, for example. We were friends for almost 20 years. We were at each other's weddings. We taught the Word of God together and shared in home church for 8 years. Yet, this last year he went through a divorce, and now will not return email or answer my phone calls. My pastor in the institutional church can be faulted for many things, including causing me to leave the denominational system and to meet in homes with other believers. Nevertheless, when I heard about his hard times, and about his wife leaving him, I called him. He not only returned my phone call, but came over to my office and visited with me one-on-one. Do you hear what I am saying? The home church pastor cast me away, knowing how I feel about divorce, but the institutional pastor did not. So we can talk in theory about how home church creates better relationships, and in theory this might sound great, but as the old saying goes, familiarity breeds contempt. Jesus also spoke about the difficulty prophets have in their home town. In my experience, relationships are not necessarily better just because of the home church wineskin. The bottom line is still the Spirit of Christ living within us. The bottom line is still our being willing to die to
Re: [TruthTalk] differences
Terry wrote: The Jerusalem Christians met on temple grounds, but never inside the temple. I'm not sure what you mean by never inside the temple. Wasn't Jesus in the Temple when he cast out the money changers? When the angel of the Lord freed the apostles from prison, didn't he tell them to go speak in the temple (Acts 5:20)? Terry wrote: As I understand it, they met in an area that had a roof but no walls. I think you mean walls but no roof? It would be rather interesting to see a building with a roof but no walls, wouldn't it. :-) Yes, the bulk of the Temple were courts, meaning, walled areas without a roof. I'm not sure what distinction this makes in your mind. It was still a building that demarcated an area for religious worship. Jesus certainly considered it as such when he cast out the money changers, and the New Testament indicates that the early Christians used the Temple for this purpose, to praise and worship God, to pray, and to read and teach God's Word. One day, perhaps after I retire, I hope to write a book about the way the first century Christians participated in the religious institutions of their society and its implication for believers who meet in home churches today. Terry wrote: I would assume that the Christians stayed away from the temple proper in order not to incur the wrath of the Priests and Pharisees. I think you underestimate the early Christians. They were not wimpy sissies like so many Christians in our society. They went into the Temple and preached, and yes, they did incur the wrath of priests and Pharisees. See Acts 5, Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, etc. Also see how they followed the example of Jesus from John 7:28, Luke 21:37-38, Luke 22:53, Mat. 21:14-15. Terry wrote: As to synagogues, I was under the impression that they could only be such if they had ten Jewish men meeting, and it was the group, not the building, that bore the title in that time. Most of the apostles were Jewish men, and there were thousands upon thousands of Jewish men who believed in the Lord. The term synagogue is much like the word church, which first has application to the assembly (and still does), then comes to refer also to the place where the assembly meets. We have excavated religious buildings that go back to the 3rd century B.C. and believe that they existed even before that time. Terry wrote: The new KJV uses the word assembly rather than Synagogue The old KJV translates it as assembly also, but look at the Greek and you will see that the word is synagogue. The synagogues were established hundreds of years before Christ. Terry wrote: ... and that could well imply a group too large for our dining room, but I doubt that it was anything near what you find assembled in church buildings today, but I thank you for the input. How then do you explain thousands being added to the church when Peter preached in the Temple? Many of these synagogues have been excavated and I have visited them in Israel. They were very much like our church buildings today, some of them with mikvahs (baptismal bathtubs). Terry wrote: We just aren't in total agreement on this one. Why not? Is it because Frank Viola wrote that the first church building started with Constantine? Or is it because your view of first century Christianity is one where believers huddled secretly in homes for fear of persecution from unbelieving Jews? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
thx, Terry i just wanted to know what's going on; (and respond) : That a serverwill automatically arbitrarilyattach this kinda value judgment to someone's writing is bad enough, let alone the fact that it's attachment is false/biased/incorrect; also, i apologize nowthat you (personally) may have felt impugned by any of this--i accept your explanation sincerely, g On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 07:04:47 -0600 "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am possibly the ignoramus you are referring to.
RE: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
Gosh! And I thought it was warning that some of gs poetry might be attached now I can relax without worrying about spam attacks. J Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 8:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences thx, Terry i just wanted to know what's going on; (and respond) : That a serverwill automatically arbitrarilyattach this kinda value judgment to someone's writing is bad enough, let alone the fact that it's attachment is false/biased/incorrect; also, i apologize nowthat you (personally) may have felt impugned by any of this--i accept your explanation sincerely, g On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 07:04:47 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am possibly the ignoramus you are referring to.
RE: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
No apology necessary. I was not offended. I think the spam notice is set up to be added automatically when the e-mail is from a company or group and not from an individual. Terry , i apologize nowthat you (personally) may have felt impugned by any of this--i accept your explanation sincerely, g On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 07:04:47 -0600 "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am possibly the ignoramus you are referring to. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
yes, but i think i just thought of another possibility :-) On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:26:20 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 07:04:47 -0600 "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am possibly the ignoramus you are referring to.
RE: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
Too funny! Iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 7:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences yes, but i think i just thought of another possibility :-) On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:26:20 -0600 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 07:04:47 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am possibly the ignoramus you are referring to.
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
Slade: Sounds interesting. I gather from what you say that it is fiction, somewhat based on fact? Terry ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 22:40:32 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences I currently fellowship in a home. For more info, I suggest reading the book "Constantine's Sword" by James Carroll. (C) 2001ISBN 0-618-21908-0, Mariner Books. In the process of reading this novelization, you will begin to see why wicked Constantine did what he did and his spirit lives on. I am still reading its 756 pages. -- slade - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 13 March, 2003 21:57 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] differences Amen, Terry! I hope to hear more soon. This was my experience in a church at home also. Such places are few and far between. Izzy -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:43 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] differences Izzy: You asked about differences, comparing the institutional church with home church. They are many, and I cannot think of them all at one setting, but I will point out the most obvious. If you study the New Testament, you will never find reference to a building fund, or even to a building. You will find that the Church at Jerusalem met mostly outdoors, and those in other cities (Thessalonica, Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth, ect.) met in homes.(Rom.16:5, 1Cor.16:19, Col.4:15, Phil.2 and so on.) There was no church house until around 300 A.D., when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity from paganism and brought the temple with him. Why he had the audacity to take what was pleasing to God and change it into something that pleased men is hard to figure, but from then on we had meeting places, the more ornate, the better. Before long, people are calling these meeting places "the Church". I have been guilty of it as have most people, but it is a terrible lie. It is not a Church and it is not God's house. The Church is a living organism, not an organization. It is a spiritual house, made of living stones. Jesus is the corner stone, the apostles are the foundation, and every saint is a living stone,part ofthat spiritual house that continues to be added to daily. Please note that there are no "Clergy" stones between the foundation and the living stones, and please note that the Church is composed only of saved persons. Lost people make up a large part of what we call the church today, partly because we bring them there hoping they will get saved. If we did it correctly, we would lead them to a relationship with Christ, then bring them to a meeting of the Church. If you were invited to a gathering of the Church in NT times, you would find what Paul described in 1 COR.14:26 "When you come together, each of you has a song, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." In other words, every saint takes part. It is not a performer on stage and an audience in the pews! If youare invited to any mainline church in America, you will not find this. Try interrupting the preacher. Tell him you disagree with him, and see how fast the ushers swoop down on you. What you will find, in all probability, is that you are handed a program as you enter. Nothing spontaneous will happen, everything is planned. You will be seated facing the pulpit. The preacher occupies the pulpit, the choir is seated behind him. The music minister tells you what song to sing, they make the announcements, have another song, maybe a choir special, followed by the offering, then the message. The preacher talks or screams for twenty minutes, followed by three verses of "Just as I am" and you are out the door by 12:05 at the latest. You do not know the names of eighty percent of the other pew dwellers. All you know about them is what the back of their head looks like. Two hours later, you cannot even remember what the preacher talked about. That's church, in God's house. A worship service. Remember what Paul said in that verse. It's all about "edification". We do not meet in our home for worship. We worship our God every day, all day, starting with prayer in the morning and ending with prayer at night, with a few short ones sprinkled in during the day. We worship by being obedient, by loving our neighbor and our fellow saints and our enemies, by caring about those who hurt, and helping those who need help. When we meet, it is to celebrate God's goodness and to encourage each other. We are free to do things like buy a tractor for a Christian orphanage in Slovakia because we don't have a pastor to pay or a building to maintain. Any spending is on those in need. We meet across a table, eating a full meal, looking each
Re: [TruthTalk] differences
David: You may be correct, but I am not able to see it. The Jerusalem Christians met on temple grounds, but never inside the temple. As I understand it, they met in an area that had a roof but no walls.The temple grounds covered forty acres, and I would assume that the Christians stayed away from the temple proper in order not to incur the wrath of the Priests and Pharisees. As to synagogues, I was under the impression that they could only be such if they had ten Jewish men meeting, and it was the group, not the building, that bore the title in that time. The new KJV uses the word "assembly" rather than Synagogue, and that could well imply a group too large for our dining room, but I doubt that it was anything near what you find assembled in church buildings today, but I thank you for the input. I value your opinion and have learned from things you have written, even though You were addressing someone else and some other issue. We just aren't in total agreement on this one. Blessings, Terry ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 10:08:04 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] differences Terry wrote: If you study the New Testament, you will never find reference to a building fund, or even to a building.Hi Terry. I very much like home church and find it helps bring back aperspective that the church of Jesus Christ is not a building made withhands. Nevertheless, please be careful about drawing conclusions from thesilence of Scripture. Even if the Scriptures do not mention a "churchbuilding," that does not mean that there never was one during this time.James uses the word "synagogue" to refer to the assembly of Christians,which might be interpreted to mean a building where Christians assemble (seeJames 2:2). Paul also indicates that he hunted for Christians insynagogues, meaning a building where people worshipped God and were taughtof God (see Acts 26:11, 22:19). The early Christians also met in the Temple(see Acts 2:46, 5:42). So, clearly, the early Christians, like Jesus,regularly assembled in synagogue, in the Temple, and in houses. In otherwords, they assembled both "house to house" and in buildings used forreligious worship and teaching. They did not seclude themselves to meetingonly in homes.Terry wrote: There was no church house until around 300 A.D., when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity from paganism and brought the temple with him. Why he had the audacity to take what was pleasing to God and change it into something that pleased men is hard to figure, but from then on we had meeting places, the more ornate, the better.Constantine certainly did more church building than anyone in history untilprobably the 19th century. Nevertheless, church buildings did not startwith him. As early as the writings of Ignatius, who died around 110 A.D.,we find references that suggest buildings being called churches. Ignatiusmentions the church of the Magnesians being near the Maeander river. Thatsuggests that perhaps he had a building in mind. He also mentions "onealtar for the whole church" in talking about the Eucharist. Eusebiusmentions Christian churches during the reign of Aurelian (215-275 A.D.), andmany historians record the destruction of Church buildings during thepersecution of Diocletian (284-305 A.D.), which was prior to Constantine.Diocletian led some of the biggest persecution against the churches. Therewas a 40 year period of relative peace prior to his coming to the throneduring which time pagan temples were turned into church buildings, and somenew church buildings were erected. It seems clear to me that Constantinewas reversing what his predecessor had done.Terry wrote: Before long, people are calling these meeting places "the Church". I have been guilty of it as have most people, but it is a terrible lie.It is human nature to do this, which is why God gave us commandments againstidolatry. God told Moses to make a tabernacle after the pattern shown tohim, but God knew that men would have a tendency to look to it instead ofhim. Think about why God might have done this while knowing the effect.This gives us the answer to the question of whether or not church buildingsin themselves are good or bad.Terry wrote: If you were invited to a gathering of the Church in NT times, you would find what Paul described in 1 COR.14:26 "When you come together, each of you has a song, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." In other words, every saint takes part. It is not a performer on stage and an audience in the pews!Excellent point! Even the Jewish synagogues were better at this than modernchurch systems, as we know that Jesus, Paul, and others regularly assembledin the Jewish synagogues and taught God's Word there.Terry wrote: Remember what Paul said in that verse. It's all about "edification&
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:50:35 + (GMT) =?iso-8859-1?q?michael=20douglas?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michael D: || Transformation from the old to the new, is the next big thing on God's agenda. 'transformation' tonew truth from oldtruth would be welcome biblical change--it's bot not liberalism, but radicalism intypical traditionalism, the same old stuff, e.g., hermaneutical gematria brought 'forward' astruth,amounts to reverse 'transformation'--it is invalid tradition assertedin genuine ignorance,kinda like an eagle tryin' tosoar while chained to thr floor advancing traditional lies as 'truth'--institutionalized--as in (e.g.) Mormonism and Catholicism--is not quite the same, though, because those involvedseek to adapt (or evolve or transform) thier lies--have no interest in truth per se or in any (biblical) knowledge counter to their institutional claims
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
Michael: Sounds as though you agonized over your decision in much the same way that we did. Some in our group are still unable to break away from the institutional setting.. We meet on Tuesday evening, so they can come to home church without missing the traditional Sunday morning thing. Last night I painted a picture of home Church and institutional Church that was a fair comparison, but I fear it made the institutional Church look like the villan in the plot and that was not my intention. I have no doubt that it is far from what God would have the coming together of the saints be, but at the same time, He has used what He had to work with in a powerful way. I was saved in a church,I was a teacher in a church (Sunday school), and I was a deacon in a church. I was even allowed to fill the pulpit a few times when they were really desperate for a warm body. I Know that these are not bad people mocking God. They are good people (as good as people ever are) who do not know any better. It is what we are all taught, and until you start digging for answers in God's word, you live in ignorant bliss. I think that because most of these folk are operating in ignorance, and not in deliberate disobedience, the Lord continues to bless them and use them. Because He does, missionaries are sent all over the world, and Bibles are distributed wherever they go. People are saved that we in the home Church could never reach. I am not at all sure that the leaders even know how far off course they are. They have been taught to think what they think, by people with titles, who they respect. If a doctor of divinity doesn't have the right answers, they figure,who does? I have been privileged to have a close relationship with a few pastors in my life, and sadly, some of them are more ignorant than the "Lay" people, and are determined to stay that way. Some cannot see the error, and some do not want to.It would end their employment.Because of these relationships, I can tell you that some would keep preaching if they never got a dime for their effort, and some would seek a newjob tomorrow if the paycheck stopped. Some have a calling, and some have a career. There is no person in the world that I respect more than a street preacher, and no one I respect less than the televangelist that keeps asking for more money. The first is following in the footsteps of John, the Baptist and Peter and Paul. The second is an abomination. All the other preachers are in between, on a sliding scale, from humble servants of the Lord to real weasels. From what I have seen of home church groups though, there is a lot of room for improvement there too. Some of them seem to have an air of superiority, as though they are more spiritual than those who need a pastor, and others are straight out anti-authority, anti-denomination, anti-government, anti-everything. Sort of a group of bad tempered hermits. As for our group, it will probably be summer before we are perfect. Terry Michael D: Very well said, Terry. The Lord has a very specific mission today, and that's to get the Church back to the NT realities that have long deserted its 'corridors'... I talk about these things often with believers, but it is not easy to apprehend. Even when one sees them, it takes some time to get accustomed to. It took me about two years, at least, of God 'sticking my face in it' and repeatedly affirming to me that thetraditional systemis all wrong,before I made a full psycholigical adjustment to it. Now, I knew they were right from the first moment He revealed them to me. The problem was relating to the fact that so many millions of believers can be so wrong and misplaced, while being used by God is such significant ways. It's the same problem one encounters when trying to impart these truths to those in the traditional systems today. What was very strange, I would visit 'services' where the 'Spirit was moving' and people were being tremendously blessed, but I would be totally untouched. I would wonder if something was wrong with me. Repeatedly God would let me know that this was not His will, and therefore, having revealed the truth o me, He could not let me feel comfortable there any more. This process of weaning finally allowed me to get settled within myself about the stark realities of the present system. Transformation from the old to the new, is the next big thing on God's agenda.
Re: **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] differences
ftr, MD, some ignoramus (not me:-) referred to this thread as 'spam'--no idea why; spam is unsolicited email, not email the ideas of whichone (solicits here on _tt_, but) dislikes; also, note my corrections, below--sorry--i'm a lousy typist, MD, and semi-illiterate acc to some of my critics, partic when typing in a hurry, however, i recognize that's no excuse for a substd post...(and while i'm at it) even a susbstd post (with egregious errors) is not necessarily 'spam'; and, comments on this issue are welcome from anyone here, perhaps belong in a new thread, though On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:48:25 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:50:35 + (GMT) =?iso-8859-1?q?michael=20douglas?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michael D: || Transformation from the old to the new, is the next big thing on God's agenda. 'transformation' tonew truth from oldtruth would be welcome biblical change--it's not liberalism, but radicalism intypical traditionalism, the same old stuff, e.g., hermaneutical gematria brought 'forward' astruth,amounts to reverse 'transformation'--it is invalid tradition assertedin genuine ignorance,kinda like an eagle tryin' tosoar while chained to thr floor advancing traditional lies as 'truth'--institutionalized--as in (e.g.) Mormonism and Catholicism--is not quite the same, though, because those involvedseek to adapt (or evolve or transform) their lies--have no interest in truth per se or in any (biblical) knowledge counter to their institutional claims
RE: [TruthTalk] differences
Amen, Terry! I hope to hear more soon. This was my experience in a church at home also. Such places are few and far between. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] differences Izzy: You asked about differences, comparing the institutional church with home church. They are many, and I cannot think of them all at one setting, but I will point out the most obvious. If you study the New Testament, you will never find reference to a building fund, or even to a building. You will find that the Church at Jerusalem met mostly outdoors, and those in other cities (Thessalonica, Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth, ect.) met in homes.(Rom.16:5, 1Cor.16:19, Col.4:15, Phil.2 and so on.) There was no church house until around 300 A.D., when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity from paganism and brought the temple with him. Why he had the audacity to take what was pleasing to God and change it into something that pleased men is hard to figure, but from then on we had meeting places, the more ornate, the better. Before long, people are calling these meeting places the Church. I have been guilty of it as have most people, but it is a terrible lie. It is not a Church and it is not God's house. The Church is a living organism, not an organization. It is a spiritual house, made of living stones. Jesus is the corner stone, the apostles are the foundation, and every saint is a living stone,part ofthat spiritual house that continues to be added to daily. Please note that there are no Clergy stones between the foundation and the living stones, and please note that the Church is composed only of saved persons. Lost people make up a large part of what we call the church today, partly because we bring them there hoping they will get saved. If we did it correctly, we would lead them to a relationship with Christ, then bring them to a meeting of the Church. If you were invited to a gathering of the Church in NT times, you would find what Paul described in 1 COR.14:26 When you come together, each of you has a song, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. In other words, every saint takes part. It is not a performer on stage and an audience in the pews! If youare invited to any mainline church in America, you will not find this. Try interrupting the preacher. Tell him you disagree with him, and see how fast the ushers swoop down on you. What you will find, in all probability, is that you are handed a program as you enter. Nothing spontaneous will happen, everything is planned. You will be seated facing the pulpit. The preacher occupies the pulpit, the choir is seated behind him. The music minister tells you what song to sing, they make the announcements, have another song, maybe a choir special, followed by the offering, then the message. The preacher talks or screams for twenty minutes, followed by three verses of Just as I am and you are out the door by 12:05 at the latest. You do not know the names of eighty percent of the other pew dwellers. All you know about them is what the back of their head looks like. Two hours later, you cannot even remember what the preacher talked about. That's church, in God's house. A worship service. Remember what Paul said in that verse. It's all about edification. We do not meet in our home for worship. We worship our God every day, all day, starting with prayer in the morning and ending with prayer at night, with a few short ones sprinkled in during the day. We worship by being obedient, by loving our neighbor and our fellow saints and our enemies, by caring about those who hurt, and helping those who need help. When we meet, it is to celebrate God's goodness and to encourage each other. We are free to do things like buy a tractor for a Christian orphanage in Slovakia because we don't have a pastor to pay or a building to maintain. Any spending is on those in need. We meet across a table, eating a full meal, looking each other in the face. I know their problems, their good points and their faults, and they know mine. We are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Family.. of God. (It helps to have a good Christian wife who seesher cooking and cleaning as part of her reasonable service.) Well, I can see that I have gone on too long, and not said a tenth of what I wanted to share with you, so I will wrap it up for now. Blessings, Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] differences
I currently fellowship in a home. For more info, I suggest reading the book "Constantine's Sword" by James Carroll. (C) 2001ISBN 0-618-21908-0, Mariner Books. In the process of reading this novelization, you will begin to see why wicked Constantine did what he did and his spirit lives on. I am still reading its 756 pages. -- slade - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 13 March, 2003 21:57 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] differences Amen, Terry! I hope to hear more soon. This was my experience in a church at home also. Such places are few and far between. Izzy -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:43 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] differences Izzy: You asked about differences, comparing the institutional church with home church. They are many, and I cannot think of them all at one setting, but I will point out the most obvious. If you study the New Testament, you will never find reference to a building fund, or even to a building. You will find that the Church at Jerusalem met mostly outdoors, and those in other cities (Thessalonica, Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth, ect.) met in homes.(Rom.16:5, 1Cor.16:19, Col.4:15, Phil.2 and so on.) There was no church house until around 300 A.D., when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity from paganism and brought the temple with him. Why he had the audacity to take what was pleasing to God and change it into something that pleased men is hard to figure, but from then on we had meeting places, the more ornate, the better. Before long, people are calling these meeting places "the Church". I have been guilty of it as have most people, but it is a terrible lie. It is not a Church and it is not God's house. The Church is a living organism, not an organization. It is a spiritual house, made of living stones. Jesus is the corner stone, the apostles are the foundation, and every saint is a living stone,part ofthat spiritual house that continues to be added to daily. Please note that there are no "Clergy" stones between the foundation and the living stones, and please note that the Church is composed only of saved persons. Lost people make up a large part of what we call the church today, partly because we bring them there hoping they will get saved. If we did it correctly, we would lead them to a relationship with Christ, then bring them to a meeting of the Church. If you were invited to a gathering of the Church in NT times, you would find what Paul described in 1 COR.14:26 "When you come together, each of you has a song, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." In other words, every saint takes part. It is not a performer on stage and an audience in the pews! If youare invited to any mainline church in America, you will not find this. Try interrupting the preacher. Tell him you disagree with him, and see how fast the ushers swoop down on you. What you will find, in all probability, is that you are handed a program as you enter. Nothing spontaneous will happen, everything is planned. You will be seated facing the pulpit. The preacher occupies the pulpit, the choir is seated behind him. The music minister tells you what song to sing, they make the announcements, have another song, maybe a choir special, followed by the offering, then the message. The preacher talks or screams for twenty minutes, followed by three verses of "Just as I am" and you are out the door by 12:05 at the latest. You do not know the names of eighty percent of the other pew dwellers. All you know about them is what the back of their head looks like. Two hours later, you cannot even remember what the preacher talked about. That's church, in God's house. A worship service. Remember what Paul said in that verse. It's all about "edification". We do not meet in our home for worship. We worship our God every day, all day, starting with prayer in the morning and ending with prayer at night, with a few short ones sprinkled in during the day. W
