[Vo]:Defkalion web site off line again

[Jed Rothwell]

http://www.defkalion-energy.com has been suspended again. Let us hope it
stays that way.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[James Bowery]

Crap like this is so obscene that it seems like the concoction of its
enemies or of some continuation of what many hypothesize is Rossi's
perverse strategy of surrounding the E-Cat with repellent so he has time to
work out his own problems before serious players stomp on him.


On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 2:20 PM, H Veeder  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> H Veeder  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> He claimed that DGT learned Rossi's trade secret. He did not say DGT
>>> "stole" it. He stated this publicly because he wanted to persuade people
>>> that DGT could build a working reactor without Rossi's help.
>>>
>>
>> He said they examined the powder with a mass spec in violation of
>> agreements with Rossi, and without Rossi's knowledge. That is theft of
>> trade secrets. Some of the people negotiating with him were appalled, as
>> was I. Maybe you do not think this is theft, and maybe Xanthoulis does not
>> think it is, but by the standards of U.S. business ethics, it is theft and
>> will surely mean Defkalion is not free to sell the product and they will be
>> tied up in civil suits for years if they try to sell it.
>>
>> I am pretty sure there will be no civil suit for trade secret theft,
>> because as far as I know they do not have a working product. Maybe they
>> tried to steal the secret, but they failed.
>>
>>
> This was the press release from Rossi when he severed ties with DGT:
>
>
> http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3228357.ece/BINARY/Defkalion+EFA+breach+press+release+(pdf)
>
> If Rossi was right then DGT has never known the secret. Rossi said
> elsewhere that DGT was just peddling a mock-up which they were going to
> later fill with one of his e-cat units when they became available on the
> market.
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>
>> The people at Defkalion Europe (DE) declared themselves out of business
>> as soon they discovered the claims were false and the machine does not
>> produce excess heat. I and others have praised them for doing this. In
>> point of fact, they had to do that. Any other course of action would be
>> criminal fraud. Once you know your product does not work, you have stop
>> selling it. They deserve praise for doing this quickly and decisively, and
>> for warning their customers. They deserve praise for telling Defkalion, and
>> for publishing the report.
>>
>> Defkalion has known their claims are wrong at least since the day after
>> ICCF18, and probably much longer. Yet they are still in business, and they
>> still claim it works. If it was was not fraud up until ICCF18, it surely is
>> now.
>>
>> (It might have been an idiotic mistake up until ICCF18, but I think that
>> is very unlikely, given all the times I and others warned them to do
>> reality check tests.)
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[H Veeder]

On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> H Veeder  wrote:
>
>
>> He claimed that DGT learned Rossi's trade secret. He did not say DGT
>> "stole" it. He stated this publicly because he wanted to persuade people
>> that DGT could build a working reactor without Rossi's help.
>>
>
> He said they examined the powder with a mass spec in violation of
> agreements with Rossi, and without Rossi's knowledge. That is theft of
> trade secrets. Some of the people negotiating with him were appalled, as
> was I. Maybe you do not think this is theft, and maybe Xanthoulis does not
> think it is, but by the standards of U.S. business ethics, it is theft and
> will surely mean Defkalion is not free to sell the product and they will be
> tied up in civil suits for years if they try to sell it.
>
> I am pretty sure there will be no civil suit for trade secret theft,
> because as far as I know they do not have a working product. Maybe they
> tried to steal the secret, but they failed.
>
>
This was the press release from Rossi when he severed ties with DGT:

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3228357.ece/BINARY/Defkalion+EFA+breach+press+release+(pdf)

If Rossi was right then DGT has never known the secret. Rossi said
elsewhere that DGT was just peddling a mock-up which they were going to
later fill with one of his e-cat units when they became available on the
market.

Harry




> The people at Defkalion Europe (DE) declared themselves out of business as
> soon they discovered the claims were false and the machine does not produce
> excess heat. I and others have praised them for doing this. In point of
> fact, they had to do that. Any other course of action would be criminal
> fraud. Once you know your product does not work, you have stop selling it.
> They deserve praise for doing this quickly and decisively, and for warning
> their customers. They deserve praise for telling Defkalion, and for
> publishing the report.
>
> Defkalion has known their claims are wrong at least since the day after
> ICCF18, and probably much longer. Yet they are still in business, and they
> still claim it works. If it was was not fraud up until ICCF18, it surely is
> now.
>
> (It might have been an idiotic mistake up until ICCF18, but I think that
> is very unlikely, given all the times I and others warned them to do
> reality check tests.)
>
> - Jed
>
>

[Vo]:Defkalion fiasco shows that large errors are easy to catch

[Jed Rothwell]

Looking at the silver lining, the fiasco described by Gamberale would never
have happened if he had done the tests he wanted to do from the start. He
would have caught the problem right away. He did not, because of the
"gentlemen's agreement."

That was a crazy agreement. I guess the agreement shows that the people at
Defkalion are persuasive or Gamberale is gullible.

Anyway, whether this was a stupid mistake or deliberate fraud, in the
normal course of events, any plumber or any experienced scientist would
catch it immediately.

Rossi's device has failed several tests. Jim Dunn easily showed that it was
not working. Then again, it sometimes passes the test. I suppose this is
because it works sometimes but not other times. I think we should have
confidence in Rossi's results because the Defkalion fiasco proves that on
the kilowatt scale, errors are usually easy to catch.

When I first heard about the ICCF18 flow meter problem, I assumed it was a
temporary problem. I assumed they would fix it and do another video test. I
never dreamed they had prevented people from verifying the flow rate! If I
had known about the situation Gamberale described, I would have instantly
concluded these people are frauds. I cannot think of any other reason why
they would dismantle equipment or prevent someone from checking the flow
rate with a stopwatch and bucket. In that sense, it is not only easy to
catch a mistake, it is easy to catch a fraud. When people insist on crazy
agreements, and they take steps to hide the facts and cover up problems,
you can bet they are up to no good.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Rob Dingemans]

Hi,

It's so sad to notice that my gutfeeling about Defkalion was 
unfortunately right.


On 15-5-2014 20:11, Jed Rothwell wrote:
It seems the whole thing fell apart after Rossi broke the contract. My 
guess is that he never transferred the technology to them. That's what 
he said, and I suppose it must be true. Maybe they thought they knew 
how to make the gadget work without his help, but they did not.


I hope Rossi's device will be available soon for the entire world. We 
really need it!


Kind regards,

Rob

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

What startles me it is the supposition that all, ALL, controversial issues
> surrounding Rossi, is the result of naivete from all parties. Like a
> competition to who can be the most idiot
>

Yeah, I agree. I sympathize with Gamberale. He seems smart and honest, and
I believe his report. But who would be so naive as to agree to that
"gentlemen's agreement"?!??? Why would you keep working on a project after
they dismantle your verification test equipment "without discussion." I
would have raised hell! I would have thrown them out that afternoon. It is
as if you just met someone in a noisy bar, and he says: "I'll show you a
trick! You put wallet and your money on the table, and then go to the men's
room, hide your eyes, and count to a hundred."

Rossi was naive for thinking those people would really pay him 100 million
euros.

Of all three parties, Rossi -- of all people -- seems to be the most
sensible. That tells you we are dealing with strange people! He washed his
hands of them long ago. I told him long after the breakup that I agree they
are clowns and he was well rid of them.

Rossi seems to attract strange people. So did Edison.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

Currently, the rules in the field of cold fusion are what we say they are.
I say that Jed's roles are malarkey. I like my rules better.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

>  Lewan might well be writing about the system development processes of
> Puss and Boots as far as the "real world" is concerned..
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>> The currently excepted position of society is that Cold fusion is an
>> invalid non patentable dream or fantasy. You cannot steal information about
>> a dream or a fantasy.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>
>>> Axil Axil  wrote:
>>>
>>> Cold fusion replication has no legal standing and is totally subjective
 in the mind of the observer.

>>>
>>> That makes no difference at all. As I said, you can be sued for stealing
>>> a trade secret consisting of marketing plans and advertising jingles, or a
>>> movie script. Those are totally subjective and the value of them (if any)
>>> cannot be estimated. As long as a company says it is secret, and you steal
>>> it, you are guilty. Depending on your method of stealing it, you can face
>>> civil or criminal charges.
>>>
>>> Employees steal advertising plans and other nebulous things like that
>>> all the time. They are seldom actually sued. Bankers in the run-up to 2008
>>> were filing lawsuits against employees who quit and set up complicated
>>> investment instruments, also known as Financial Weapons of Mass
>>> Destruction. The details were trade secrets. Employee contracts typically
>>> prevented them from working in banking for 2 years after they left the
>>> employ of the bank.
>>>
>>> - Jed
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

 Lewan might well be writing about the system development processes of Puss
and Boots as far as the "real world" is concerned..


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> The currently excepted position of society is that Cold fusion is an
> invalid non patentable dream or fantasy. You cannot steal information about
> a dream or a fantasy.
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> Axil Axil  wrote:
>>
>> Cold fusion replication has no legal standing and is totally subjective
>>> in the mind of the observer.
>>>
>>
>> That makes no difference at all. As I said, you can be sued for stealing
>> a trade secret consisting of marketing plans and advertising jingles, or a
>> movie script. Those are totally subjective and the value of them (if any)
>> cannot be estimated. As long as a company says it is secret, and you steal
>> it, you are guilty. Depending on your method of stealing it, you can face
>> civil or criminal charges.
>>
>> Employees steal advertising plans and other nebulous things like that all
>> the time. They are seldom actually sued. Bankers in the run-up to 2008 were
>> filing lawsuits against employees who quit and set up complicated
>> investment instruments, also known as Financial Weapons of Mass
>> Destruction. The details were trade secrets. Employee contracts typically
>> prevented them from working in banking for 2 years after they left the
>> employ of the bank.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

The currently excepted position of society is that Cold fusion is an
invalid non patentable dream or fantasy. You cannot steal information about
a dream or a fantasy.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> Cold fusion replication has no legal standing and is totally subjective in
>> the mind of the observer.
>>
>
> That makes no difference at all. As I said, you can be sued for stealing a
> trade secret consisting of marketing plans and advertising jingles, or a
> movie script. Those are totally subjective and the value of them (if any)
> cannot be estimated. As long as a company says it is secret, and you steal
> it, you are guilty. Depending on your method of stealing it, you can face
> civil or criminal charges.
>
> Employees steal advertising plans and other nebulous things like that all
> the time. They are seldom actually sued. Bankers in the run-up to 2008 were
> filing lawsuits against employees who quit and set up complicated
> investment instruments, also known as Financial Weapons of Mass
> Destruction. The details were trade secrets. Employee contracts typically
> prevented them from working in banking for 2 years after they left the
> employ of the bank.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

What startles me it is the supposition that all, ALL, controversial issues
surrounding Rossi, is the result of naivete from all parties. Like a
competition to who can be the most idiot


2014-05-18 17:11 GMT-03:00 Axil Axil :

>
>
> A legal action cannot be made in the field of could fusion because it is
> not a recognized and commercializeable technology.
>
>
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

Cold fusion replication has no legal standing and is totally subjective in
> the mind of the observer.
>

That makes no difference at all. As I said, you can be sued for stealing a
trade secret consisting of marketing plans and advertising jingles, or a
movie script. Those are totally subjective and the value of them (if any)
cannot be estimated. As long as a company says it is secret, and you steal
it, you are guilty. Depending on your method of stealing it, you can face
civil or criminal charges.

Employees steal advertising plans and other nebulous things like that all
the time. They are seldom actually sued. Bankers in the run-up to 2008 were
filing lawsuits against employees who quit and set up complicated
investment instruments, also known as Financial Weapons of Mass
Destruction. The details were trade secrets. Employee contracts typically
prevented them from working in banking for 2 years after they left the
employ of the bank.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

Cold fusion is in the same legal position as the Santa clause character in
the movie, the *Miracle* on *34th Street* .


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> Since fold fusion is currently not a valid technology from a legal point
>> of view, any process that get information about the process is not illegal.
>>
>
> That can't be true! That argument would never stand up in court. A court
> cannot decide what is "valid technology" or scientific truth. People can be
> sued for stealing trade secrets that have no bearing on reality or
> technology, such as marketing plans for pet rocks, a movie script, or the
> plans for an upcoming television show, and what the host's hairstyle will
> be.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

Since fold fusion is currently not a valid technology from a legal point of
> view, any process that get information about the process is not illegal.
>

That can't be true! That argument would never stand up in court. A court
cannot decide what is "valid technology" or scientific truth. People can be
sued for stealing trade secrets that have no bearing on reality or
technology, such as marketing plans for pet rocks, a movie script, or the
plans for an upcoming television show, and what the host's hairstyle will
be.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

A legal action cannot be made in the field of could fusion because it is
not a recognized and commercializeable technology.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>
>> If DGT terminated the joint venture to the financial disadvantage of
>> Mose, then Mose should take DGT to court to recover damages by presenting
>> proof of such damages.
>>
>
> I believe the people at the joint venture itself terminated it themselves,
> after they learned that the product does not work. Defkalion did not
> terminate it.
>
> Mose should take DGT to court because:
>
> 1. The product does not work.
> 2. DGT's methods of testing it were inadequate.
> 3. DGT prevented DE from doing proper tests.
>
> I am assuming they have proof of the last charge. The first two are
> self-evident. If they have no proof they should leave that out of the
> lawsuit.
>
> Actually, there is no point to suing them. I am pretty sure they have no
> money.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

Cold fusion replication has no legal standing and is totally subjective in
the mind of the observer. There has been no regulatory standards establish
to judge when a could fusion system is working and when it is not working.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> I have said many times that I know Rossi's trade secrets as a result of
>> the unguarded things that Rossi says publicly.
>>
>
> I doubt that you do. I do not think you can replicate one of his cells.
> The people at Defkalion cannot replicate one.
>
>
>
>>  At the next level,  I am not privy to the vast amount of information the
>> Jed gets from private sources that he uses to support his statements,
>> allegations and system ideas..
>>
>
> 1. I do not get that much information, and I have related every relevant
> thing I did get. As I said, I and others told Defkalion to do "reality
> check" tests.
>
> 2. Everything else in this discussion is a matter of public record, such
> as the Lewan interview and the Gamberale paper. I have quoted from these
> public sources. There was also the article in which Xanthoulis bragged that
> they looked at the powder. I can't find that, but it is out there.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:


> If DGT terminated the joint venture to the financial disadvantage of Mose,
> then Mose should take DGT to court to recover damages by presenting proof
> of such damages.
>

I believe the people at the joint venture itself terminated it themselves,
after they learned that the product does not work. Defkalion did not
terminate it.

Mose should take DGT to court because:

1. The product does not work.
2. DGT's methods of testing it were inadequate.
3. DGT prevented DE from doing proper tests.

I am assuming they have proof of the last charge. The first two are
self-evident. If they have no proof they should leave that out of the
lawsuit.

Actually, there is no point to suing them. I am pretty sure they have no
money.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

Since fold fusion is currently not a valid technology from a legal point of
view, any process that get information about the process is not illegal.
It's every man for himself since cold fusion is currently outside of the
protection of the  legal system.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> "He said they examined the powder with a mass spec in violation of
>> agreements with Rossi, and without Rossi's knowledge"
>>
>> Agreements made in a joint venture are null and void after the
>> partnership is terminated by the principle party(Rossi) on any information
>> producing activity that occurs after the partnership is terminated.
>>
>
> This is industrial espionage. It is never okay in the U.S. It is theft of
> trade secrets.
>
> If they purchased a unit and reverse engineered it, that would be okay,
> unless they signed an agreement not to do that. But when he lends them a
> machine under a contract that specifies they cannot do that, it is theft. I
> am pretty sure of that.
>
> Software vendors all have you click on an agreement not to decompile the
> object code or otherwise analyze the program. I doubt such "agreements"
> would stand up on court.
>
> Anyway, he says he never gave them a cell, and they did not actually steal
> the technique, since their machines do not work, so it is a moot point.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

I have said many times that I know Rossi's trade secrets as a result of the
> unguarded things that Rossi says publicly.
>

I doubt that you do. I do not think you can replicate one of his cells. The
people at Defkalion cannot replicate one.



>  At the next level,  I am not privy to the vast amount of information the
> Jed gets from private sources that he uses to support his statements,
> allegations and system ideas..
>

1. I do not get that much information, and I have related every relevant
thing I did get. As I said, I and others told Defkalion to do "reality
check" tests.

2. Everything else in this discussion is a matter of public record, such as
the Lewan interview and the Gamberale paper. I have quoted from these
public sources. There was also the article in which Xanthoulis bragged that
they looked at the powder. I can't find that, but it is out there.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Terry Blanton]

>From the DGT web page:

"NEW ANNOUNCEMENT

 SUBJECT: MATS LEWAN & LUCAS GAMBERALE REPORTS "DEFKALION DEMO PROVEN
NOT TO BE RELIABLE".

 DEFKALION HAS EVALUATED THE SITUATION, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE
POSSIBLE HIDDEN INTERESTS AND AGENDAS BEHIND SUCH REPORTS AND
INTERVIEWS, THAT ONLY SHOW PARTIALLY AND SELECTAVLY OUR POSITION.

 DEFKALION WILL CONTINUE "BUSINESS AS USUAL" AS A PRIVATE COMPANY
REPRESENTING ONLY ITS OWN INTEREST AND THE INTEREST OF THE PUBLIC
ACCORDING TO OUR VISION."

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

If DGT terminated the joint venture to the financial disadvantage of Mose,
then Mose should take DGT to court to recover damages by presenting proof
of such damages.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Daniel Rocha  wrote:
>
> He said measuring the temperature of the cell. He doesn't say on what
>> conditions. You assume with flow.
>>
>
> He was talking about the ICCF18 demonstration, in which flow calorimetry
> was used. He was responding to the Gamberale report. Let me repeat the
> quote:
>
> *I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked* for a comment. He didn’t
> dispute the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric
> set-up at the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale
> confirmed this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
> instructions from Defkalion . . .
>
> *Finally Xanthoulis pointed out* that the flow calorimetry measurements
> (measurement of thermal energy output by heating flowing water) were not
> important, but that the most important measurements were on the bare
> reactor, calculating the output thermal energy by measuring temperatures on
> various points of the reactor without heating any water (you then use a law
> called Stefan–Boltzmann 
> law).
> He told me that these measurements had been sent to Gamberale twice.
> This seems to imply there were a separate set of tests without flowing
> water, and without heating water. I am not aware of such tests. Perhaps I
> overlooked them. The graphs sent by Xanthoulis are uploaded at Lewan's
> site. There is no indication on them when, where or how they were taken. I
> assumed they were from the ICCF18 demonstration.
>
> It is a perfectly valid technique to measure the cell wall temperature
> during flow calorimetry. I recommend you do that.
>
> - Jed
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

"He said they examined the powder with a mass spec in violation of
> agreements with Rossi, and without Rossi's knowledge"
>
> Agreements made in a joint venture are null and void after the partnership
> is terminated by the principle party(Rossi) on any information producing
> activity that occurs after the partnership is terminated.
>

This is industrial espionage. It is never okay in the U.S. It is theft of
trade secrets.

If they purchased a unit and reverse engineered it, that would be okay,
unless they signed an agreement not to do that. But when he lends them a
machine under a contract that specifies they cannot do that, it is theft. I
am pretty sure of that.

Software vendors all have you click on an agreement not to decompile the
object code or otherwise analyze the program. I doubt such "agreements"
would stand up on court.

Anyway, he says he never gave them a cell, and they did not actually steal
the technique, since their machines do not work, so it is a moot point.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

He said measuring the temperature of the cell. He doesn't say on what
> conditions. You assume with flow.
>

He was talking about the ICCF18 demonstration, in which flow calorimetry
was used. He was responding to the Gamberale report. Let me repeat the
quote:

*I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked* for a comment. He didn’t dispute
the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric set-up at
the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale confirmed
this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
instructions from Defkalion . . .

*Finally Xanthoulis pointed out* that the flow calorimetry measurements
(measurement of thermal energy output by heating flowing water) were not
important, but that the most important measurements were on the bare
reactor, calculating the output thermal energy by measuring temperatures on
various points of the reactor without heating any water (you then use a law
called Stefan–Boltzmann
law).
He told me that these measurements had been sent to Gamberale twice.
This seems to imply there were a separate set of tests without flowing
water, and without heating water. I am not aware of such tests. Perhaps I
overlooked them. The graphs sent by Xanthoulis are uploaded at Lewan's
site. There is no indication on them when, where or how they were taken. I
assumed they were from the ICCF18 demonstration.

It is a perfectly valid technique to measure the cell wall temperature
during flow calorimetry. I recommend you do that.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

"He said they examined the powder with a mass spec in violation of
agreements with Rossi, and without Rossi's knowledge"

Agreements made in a joint venture are null and void after the partnership
is terminated by the principle party(Rossi) on any information producing
activity that occurs after the partnership is terminated.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> H Veeder  wrote:
>
>
>> He claimed that DGT learned Rossi's trade secret. He did not say DGT
>> "stole" it. He stated this publicly because he wanted to persuade people
>> that DGT could build a working reactor without Rossi's help.
>>
>
> He said they examined the powder with a mass spec in violation of
> agreements with Rossi, and without Rossi's knowledge. That is theft of
> trade secrets. Some of the people negotiating with him were appalled, as
> was I. Maybe you do not think this is theft, and maybe Xanthoulis does not
> think it is, but by the standards of U.S. business ethics, it is theft and
> will surely mean Defkalion is not free to sell the product and they will be
> tied up in civil suits for years if they try to sell it.
>
> I am pretty sure there will be no civil suit for trade secret theft,
> because as far as I know they do not have a working product. Maybe they
> tried to steal the secret, but they failed.
>
> The people at Defkalion Europe (DE) declared themselves out of business as
> soon they discovered the claims were false and the machine does not produce
> excess heat. I and others have praised them for doing this. In point of
> fact, they had to do that. Any other course of action would be criminal
> fraud. Once you know your product does not work, you have stop selling it.
> They deserve praise for doing this quickly and decisively, and for warning
> their customers. They deserve praise for telling Defkalion, and for
> publishing the report.
>
> Defkalion has known their claims are wrong at least since the day after
> ICCF18, and probably much longer. Yet they are still in business, and they
> still claim it works. If it was was not fraud up until ICCF18, it surely is
> now.
>
> (It might have been an idiotic mistake up until ICCF18, but I think that
> is very unlikely, given all the times I and others warned them to do
> reality check tests.)
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

I have said many times that I know Rossi's trade secrets as a result of the
unguarded things that Rossi says publicly. At the next level,  I am not
privy to the vast amount of information the Jed gets from private sources
that he uses to support his statements, allegations and system ideas.. When
a person is NOT in a joint venture anymore, he can ethically take advantage
of any security lapse that allows legally obtained  information flow from
an erstwhile  confidential source when proper security procedures are not
in place to a sufficient level.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 1:04 PM, H Veeder  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>
>>  Xanthoulis was bragging in the press that he steals trade secrets from
>> his business partners. You would be crazy to sign a contract with someone
>> who says that.
>>
>>
>>
>
> He claimed that DGT learned Rossi's trade secret. He did not say DGT
> "stole" it. He stated this publicly because he wanted to persuade people
> that DGT could build a working reactor without Rossi's help.
>
> Harry
>
>
> Harry
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

My statement is an allegation in the same way that all your assertions are
based on your allegations. I will attempt to substantiate this allegation
to arrive at a more perfect truth. The level of infidelity in a partnership
my be relatively slight and need not be as rigorous as the  types of
allegations that you are making so if all thing are equal, I will have an
easier time making my case than you will have because the level of your
allegations are high indeed and in point of fact approach the ridiculous.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> I allege the Gamberale was aiding another company to produce a LENR device
>> while in a joint venture with DGT and that is way the Mose/DGT joint
>> venture was dissolved.
>>
>
> Okay. Do you have any evidence for that? Any corroboration?
>
> I assume that is a joke. It is not funny.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

He said measuring the temperature of the cell. He doesn't say on what
conditions. You assume with flow.

I am serious. I am not cursing you, I am not telling you a liar, ad
mouthing you, I am seeing problems with your assumptions and how you build
the arguments from there, speaking about them.


2014-05-18 15:35 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :

> Maybe you are joking, but if you seriously think that the cooling water
> flow rate does not affect the cell wall temperature
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

I meant to write: "you are out of line flooding this forum with nonsense."
I mean that. This is not the place for empty rhetoric, or tit-for-tat
zero-sum argumentation. If you do not understand why the flow rate affects
the cell wall temperature, please try to learn. Do not reflexively deny
that fact, or pretend it is some sort of joke.

The statements made by Xanthoulis to Lewan are either grossly ignorant, or
they are a deliberate effort to deceive ignorant members of the public.
Here in this forum one of our jobs is to separate out ignorance from valid
technical claims. Xanthoulis's statements are important. (Okay, it is a
self-appointed job but . . .)

Xanthoulis' statements are central to the biggest scandal in the history of
cold fusion. They should be carefully analyzed. People here should not
flippantly dismiss me when I point out why Xanthoulis is wrong. If you
cannot contribute to a serious discussion, please shut up.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

I should not respond but . . .

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

See, temperature can be used to measure energy. You agree with Xanthoulis.
>

Do you speak language?

Do you have the slightest idea what you are babbling about? Have you ever
looked at a flow calorimeter, or the data from one?

Maybe you are joking, but if you seriously think that the cooling water
flow rate does not affect the cell wall temperature -- which is what
Xanthoulis said -- then you understand NOTHING ABOUT CALORIMETRY. Nothing!
You don't even know the difference between flow calorimetry and what Levi
et al. did during the ELFORSK tests.

I suggest you stop writing fact-free blather about a subject you know
nothing about. Or if you do know about it, stop writing statements you know
to be nonsense. You are of line flooding this forum with nonsense. This is
a science forum, not a new-age happy place where anything goes and we are
free to ignore facts and physics.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

BTW, it was not a big deal that Defkalion did mass spectrometry. Remember:
Rossi showed one to Krivit:

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3726appendixd4.shtml

And as I said, it's easy to copy Rossi, and mass spectrometry do not help
much with that.

-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

See, temperature can be used to measure energy. You agree with Xanthoulis.
You just had to calm down a little bit :)


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:


>  He is not technologically savvy because he said that the cell
>> temperature can be used to measure heat even when the flow rate is not
>> known. That is incorrect.
>>
>>>
>>> Oh, but Rossi did that too with the hot cat too!
>

As far as I know, Rossi has not used flow calorimetry with the hot cat.
There is no flow of cooling water moving through it. Therefore the cell
temperature can be used as is, either with reference to a calibration or
the
Stefan-Boltzmann law (or both).

You can use the cell temperature to determine heat output when you use flow
calorimetry. You can use it in addition to the inlet and outlet cooling
water temperatures. However, the cell temperature varies with the flow
rate, so if the flow meter malfunctions and you do not realize that the
flow rate has changed, you will get the wrong answer for both methods. Both
the cell temperature and the cooling water inlet and outlet temperatures
will give the wrong answer. The answers are likely to diverge, which warns
you that something is wrong.

This happened to me in studies with Mallove and others.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

H Veeder  wrote:


> He claimed that DGT learned Rossi's trade secret. He did not say DGT
> "stole" it. He stated this publicly because he wanted to persuade people
> that DGT could build a working reactor without Rossi's help.
>

He said they examined the powder with a mass spec in violation of
agreements with Rossi, and without Rossi's knowledge. That is theft of
trade secrets. Some of the people negotiating with him were appalled, as
was I. Maybe you do not think this is theft, and maybe Xanthoulis does not
think it is, but by the standards of U.S. business ethics, it is theft and
will surely mean Defkalion is not free to sell the product and they will be
tied up in civil suits for years if they try to sell it.

I am pretty sure there will be no civil suit for trade secret theft,
because as far as I know they do not have a working product. Maybe they
tried to steal the secret, but they failed.

The people at Defkalion Europe (DE) declared themselves out of business as
soon they discovered the claims were false and the machine does not produce
excess heat. I and others have praised them for doing this. In point of
fact, they had to do that. Any other course of action would be criminal
fraud. Once you know your product does not work, you have stop selling it.
They deserve praise for doing this quickly and decisively, and for warning
their customers. They deserve praise for telling Defkalion, and for
publishing the report.

Defkalion has known their claims are wrong at least since the day after
ICCF18, and probably much longer. Yet they are still in business, and they
still claim it works. If it was was not fraud up until ICCF18, it surely is
now.

(It might have been an idiotic mistake up until ICCF18, but I think that is
very unlikely, given all the times I and others warned them to do reality
check tests.)

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

2014-05-18 14:08 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :

>
> He is not technologically savvy because he said that the cell temperature
> can be used to measure heat even when the flow rate is not known. That is
> incorrect.
>
>
>
>>
>> Oh, but Rossi did that too with the hot cat too!



>
> The memos had nothing to do with theory. They said only that manual tests
> of the flow and temperature were essential to confirm the claim.
>

Oh, so these are not informative demos, but nagging demos!




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

You said once he was not technologically savvy and now you trust him.
>

I do not trust him. I am saying that if he was telling the truth that they
stole the trade secrets, he is unethical. If he was lying and they did not
steal any secrets, he is crazy. By saying that, he frightened away
customers and threw away millions of dollars of potential sales.

He is not technologically savvy because he said that the cell temperature
can be used to measure heat even when the flow rate is not known. That is
incorrect.



> And I keep wondering what these memos you are referring to.
>

I just told you: memos from me to Defkalion, and from other people to
Defkalion.



> If that's from NASA, I'd be suspicious since they give credit to a theory
> that doesn't even make sense theoretically.
>

The memos had nothing to do with theory. They said only that manual tests
of the flow and temperature were essential to confirm the claim.


See, how easy can I make a theory?
>

Your "theory" is not based on any evidence. My claims are based on memos
that I and others sent to Defkalion, and statements published by Xanthoulis
in the mass media. So, your "theory" is hot air without a shred of
supporting evidence, and what I am telling you are irrefutable facts. There
is a big difference.

I am not going to respond to your nonsense again. You are free to have the
last word.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[H Veeder]

On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
>  Xanthoulis was bragging in the press that he steals trade secrets from
> his business partners. You would be crazy to sign a contract with someone
> who says that.
>
>
>

He claimed that DGT learned Rossi's trade secret. He did not say DGT
"stole" it. He stated this publicly because he wanted to persuade people
that DGT could build a working reactor without Rossi's help.

Harry


Harry

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

You said once he was not technologically savvy and now you trust him. Of
course, that might refer to people who gave him an information, but that
just changed the subject of the sentence, not the issue you raised.

And I keep wondering what these memos you are referring to. If that's from
NASA, I'd be suspicious since they give credit to a theory that doesn't
even make sense theoretically. Unless, they are naive too! Which I wouldn't
believe. So, what if DE is just trying to steal from Defkalion and send it
to NASA/WL! Look, http://news.newenergytimes.net/, Krivit did not even
bother to report anything on DE/DGT! Maybe it would be inconvenient in this
case?

See, how easy can I make a theory?


2014-05-18 13:09 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :

> measurements (measurement of thermal energy output by heating flowing
> water) were not important . . .
>
>
-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

You are taking a very vicious interpretation from something inocous that he
> said.
>

No, his statement was quite clear. I discussed it with Rossi and with some
of the potential customers Defkalion and DE were negotiating with. Rossi
said he did not believe Defkalion had managed to steal his secrets. The
potential customers were flabbergasted, and they cut off negotiations
immediately. They said it would be like buying stolen goods. They assumed
the statement was true, since it came directly from the president of the
company. That is the most reliable source imaginable! They assumed that
Defkalion would be tied up in civil suits forever, if not criminal suits.

(I do not know about Europe, but in the U.S., stealing trade secrets is
sometimes criminal, but in other cases it is only a civil matter. That
depends on how you steal them. If an employee learns the secrets in the
course of his work, and then walks out the door to a rival company, he may
be sued in civil court, but that is not criminal.)

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

I wrote:

It Defkalion did not prevent these tests, I think it is up to them to
> publish a statement explaining why the tests were not done until after
> ICCF18. Let them tell their version of the story.
>

To be fair, I should point out that Xanthoulis indirectly addressed the
"gentlemen's agreement" issue in the Lewan interview:

*I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked* for a comment. He didn’t dispute
the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric set-up at
the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale confirmed
this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
instructions from Defkalion, and that when Mose added some component, such
as another independent flow meter or another method for measuring thermal
heat output, these additional components were immediately removed by
Defkalion personel without discussions.

Xanthoulis also said that he didn’t understand why Gamberale hadn’t asked
these questions earlier during months of contacts and visits by Mose at
Defkalion’s offices in Canada, and by Defkalion in Milan. Gamberale
explained that he had tried to get the information he needed but that he
was never allowed to make the measurements he asked for. Instead he
described his role as one of an observer.

*Finally Xanthoulis pointed out* that the flow calorimetry measurements
(measurement of thermal energy output by heating flowing water) were not
important . . .
I do not find Xanthoulis' assertions credible --

First, mmany people told Xanthoulis, Hadjichristos and the others at
Defkalion that a "reality check" measurement of the flow meter and
temperatures is essential. I told them this dozens of times over the years,
and I saw memos from others repeating what I said. We said 'it is good that
you have sophisticated digital instruments, but you must also use a
stopwatch and cylinder to confirm the digital instruments.' They agreed.
Long before their agreement with DE they were told by many experts to do
this. They did not do it. They could not have. If they had, they would have
cancelled the ICCF18 demo.

Second, it makes no sense to claim the flow calorimetry measurements were
not important, and that you can depend on cell temperature alone. Without
knowing the flow rate, you cannot reach any conclusion about what power the
cell temperature indicates. The cell temperature will vary with the flow
rate, just as the inlet and outlet water temperature varies.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

You are taking a very vicious interpretation from something inocous that he
said.


2014-05-18 12:57 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :

> You mean when I repeat what Xanthoulis himself said in press interviews,
> that makes my case worse? I do not think so.
>
> You are saying that we cannot believe what Xanthoulis says *about
> himself*. Why can we believe then?
>
> - Jed
>
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> The more you say, the worse it gets.
>
>
> 2014-05-18 11:07 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :
>
>   Xanthoulis was bragging in the press that he steals trade secrets from
>> his business partners.
>>
>
You mean when I repeat what Xanthoulis himself said in press interviews,
that makes my case worse? I do not think so.

You are saying that we cannot believe what Xanthoulis says *about himself*.
Why can we believe then?

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

I allege the Gamberale was aiding another company to produce a LENR device
> while in a joint venture with DGT and that is way the Mose/DGT joint
> venture was dissolved.
>

Okay. Do you have any evidence for that? Any corroboration?

I assume that is a joke. It is not funny.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

Yes, I also allege that. I wanted to get in there subtly, but as my wife
says, I am not subtle!


2014-05-18 12:14 GMT-03:00 Axil Axil :

> I allege the Gamberale was aiding another company to produce a LENR device
> while in a joint venture with DGT and that is way the Mose/DGT joint
> venture was dissolved.
>
>
> --
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

I allege the Gamberale was aiding another company to produce a LENR device
while in a joint venture with DGT and that is way the Mose/DGT joint
venture was dissolved.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> Let us extend this line of logic a bit more.
>
>
>
> If a partner of one joint venture was engaged with another company while
> still in that partnership to produce a device that is similar in function
> to the product that was the commercialized object of the original
> partnership, is that side activity to replicate the function of that
> original product with cooperation of the other company an attempt to steal
> the intellectual property of the original partnership.
>
>
>
>
>
> Is the aggrieved partner of the original partnership justified in breaking
> the original partnership if they become aware of the outside activities of
> the other partner in violation of the original partnership?
>
>
>
> For a partner in a partnership, who is trying to duplicate the
> functionality of a product with another party the act of stealing
> intellectual property?
>
>
>
> IMHO, this is similar to unfaithfulness in a marriage. Is divorce based on
> unfaithfulness justified?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> Daniel Rocha  wrote:
>>
>> Really? In Italy, he was granted. Only there. An it is extremely unlikely
>>> that he will get anywhere . . .
>>>
>>
>> His ability to make the machine work is intellectual property whether he
>> has a patent or not. It is a trade secret. Stealing a trade secret is
>> unethical if not illegal. Xanthoulis was bragging in the press that he
>> steals trade secrets from his business partners. You would be crazy to sign
>> a contract with someone who says that.
>>
>> Rossi may file for another patent, and he may get it. So he still has
>> intellectual property in that sense as well.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

The partnership between Rossi and DGT had be terminated when the alleged
act occurred and is therefore not a violation of the partnership.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Daniel Rocha wrote:

> The more you say, the worse it gets.
>
>
> 2014-05-18 11:07 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :
>
>   Xanthoulis was bragging in the press that he steals trade secrets from
>> his business partners.
>>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Axil Axil]

Let us extend this line of logic a bit more.



If a partner of one joint venture was engaged with another company while
still in that partnership to produce a device that is similar in function
to the product that was the commercialized object of the original
partnership, is that side activity to replicate the function of that
original product with cooperation of the other company an attempt to steal
the intellectual property of the original partnership.





Is the aggrieved partner of the original partnership justified in breaking
the original partnership if they become aware of the outside activities of
the other partner in violation of the original partnership?



For a partner in a partnership, who is trying to duplicate the
functionality of a product with another party the act of stealing
intellectual property?



IMHO, this is similar to unfaithfulness in a marriage. Is divorce based on
unfaithfulness justified?






On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Daniel Rocha  wrote:
>
> Really? In Italy, he was granted. Only there. An it is extremely unlikely
>> that he will get anywhere . . .
>>
>
> His ability to make the machine work is intellectual property whether he
> has a patent or not. It is a trade secret. Stealing a trade secret is
> unethical if not illegal. Xanthoulis was bragging in the press that he
> steals trade secrets from his business partners. You would be crazy to sign
> a contract with someone who says that.
>
> Rossi may file for another patent, and he may get it. So he still has
> intellectual property in that sense as well.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

The more you say, the worse it gets.


2014-05-18 11:07 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :

>  Xanthoulis was bragging in the press that he steals trade secrets from
> his business partners.
>
-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

Really? In Italy, he was granted. Only there. An it is extremely unlikely
> that he will get anywhere . . .
>

His ability to make the machine work is intellectual property whether he
has a patent or not. It is a trade secret. Stealing a trade secret is
unethical if not illegal. Xanthoulis was bragging in the press that he
steals trade secrets from his business partners. You would be crazy to sign
a contract with someone who says that.

Rossi may file for another patent, and he may get it. So he still has
intellectual property in that sense as well.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

Really? In Italy, he was granted. Only there. An it is extremely unlikely
that he will get anywhere which will render the rest of what you wrote is
completely meaningless regarding intellectual property.

You are really the one without sense Jed. You are driving a tower of
speculations over your own vanity.


2014-05-17 23:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :
Rossi does have intellectual property.


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

Well, you have a contradiction, if he bragged stealing intellectual
> property (which Rossi doesn't have and is unable to acquire!), he'd have
> something working!
>

Rossi does have intellectual property. His devices work. He knows how to
make them. It may be that he has not written a patent or some other
coherent description of how to fabricate the devices, but he knows.

Xanthoulis bragged that he stole the secret. As I recall, he said Rossi was
unaware of the fact they looked the powder with a mass spec. However, it is
clear that Defkalion was not able to replicate. Their devices do not
produce excess heat. So Xanthoulis thought that his company had stolen the
secret, and he bragged about it, but he was wrong.

Xanthoulis does not seem to have much technical knowledge. I suppose his
people told him "we have the secret" and he believed them.



> Aren't you the one tarnishing your own reputation?
>

No. You are confused.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Eric Walker]

On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

It Defkalion did not prevent these tests, I think it is up to them to
> publish a statement explaining why the tests were not done until after
> ICCF18. Let them tell their version of the story. If they do not respond, I
> will assume Gamberale is telling the truth.
>

Yes, this is very reasonable.  If they remain quiet, it becomes harder and
harder over time to escape the conclusion that they were hoping to
manipulate the outcome of the test by keeping Gamberale from taking good
measurements.


> If DGT prevented the tests they are frauds.
>

If they prevented simple, common sense measurements, this is a hard
conclusion to avoid.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

Well, you have a contradiction, if he bragged stealing intellectual
property (which Rossi doesn't have and is unable to acquire!), he'd have
something working! Aren't you the one tarnishing your own reputation?


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Eric Walker  wrote:


> With all confidence, you repeat Gamberale's assertion that Defkalion
> prevented Gamberale from doing common sense tests, as though it were
> established fact.  What is the basis for your confidence?
>

There is corroboration. In retrospect this is the only explanation that
makes sense.

Defkalion prevented me and several others from visiting after they realized
that we intended to bring our own instruments and do those same
reality-check tests. They cancelled on me and the others 3 times, the last
time a few hours before the plane left. Looking back, this was a game of
chicken. They only wanted visitors they could dupe.

The fact that Defkalion Europe (DE) closed down soon after the test
indicates DE found a serious problem. I am sure it was the flow meter. I
heard that from multiple sources. Hadjichristos confirmed that soon after
the conference.

Such a serious problem should have been caught earlier. It should have been
caught before ICCF18. There has to be reason they did not even do a simple
check until the day after the ICCF18 test. Gamberale clearly knew how to do
this test. Perhaps there is some other reason he failed to do it, and no
"gentleman's agreement." Since he knew how to do it and realized the
importance, I can't imagine why else he would refrain from doing it. It is
a strange story, I will grant.

It Defkalion did not prevent these tests, I think it is up to them to
publish a statement explaining why the tests were not done until after
ICCF18. Let them tell their version of the story. If they do not respond, I
will assume Gamberale is telling the truth.



> It is not Xanthoulis.  He acknowledged that there was a problem with the
> flow meter.  He did not acknowledge that Defkalion prevented Gamberale from
> doing common sense tests.
>

I think it must have been Xanthoulis or someone else from Defkalion. Any
normal, sane person familiar with calorimetry would do these tests.
Gamberale understood why the tests were needed, and he did them as soon as
the people from Defkalion left.


You are casting doubt on your objectivity.
>

I would have to be blind fool not to assume these people are frauds and
cheats!

For one thing, when they were still rolling in money they promised to pay
me $1,400, and they ran up much larger debts with other people. Then they
lied and lied and lied about that, in public, and they tried to trash my
reputation, repeatedly. Then Xanthoulis bragged in the press that they
stole intellectual property from Rossi. He was bragging to the whole world
that he is a crook! Can you imagine?!? Who would do business with someone
who brags that he robbed his former business partner? So I have known all
along they are deadbeats and liars.



>  You are beginning to sound like Krivit.  You want to take a short-cut to
> get to a conclusion that you believe to be true.
>

The conclusion has been inescapable for years. It is none of my business,
and I am not a police investigator or a self-styled Tintin reporter like
Krivit. However, when anyone asked me about Defkalion I told them: "They
look like a bunch a crooks to me. They have never published any data.
Everyone I know who has been there says it does not work. And they stiffed
me for $1,400. You would be crazy to do business with them." I have never
kept any of that a secret. It would be irresponsible for me *not* to tell
people that.


 The conclusion about Defkalion that you want to get to is probably
> spot-on.  But, at least from the information that has been made public, all
> we have are assertions from parties directly involved concerning Defkalion
> preventing Gamberale from making accurate measurements.  This detail is
> likely to be true, but has not been established to be true.
>

It hardly matters whether it is true or not. If they neglected to do common
sense tests, both DGT and DE were grossly incompetent. If DGT prevented the
tests they are frauds. Either way they are unqualified and no one should do
business with them.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

True, and the nature of the problem was not estabilished. For example, it
could be an understimation of the flux or an overstimation. It could be
anything. But it did not mean at all that it could necessarily be 0.


2014-05-17 18:15 GMT-03:00 Eric Walker :

>  He acknowledged that there was a problem with the flow meter.
>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Eric Walker]

On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

They were the ones who insisted that Gamberale set up the system that way.
> When he tried to install additional equipment to confirm the flow rate,
> they ordered it removed without discussion. They stopped him from doing
> common sense tests that would have revealed the flow meter was not working.
>

With all confidence, you repeat Gamberale's assertion that Defkalion
prevented Gamberale from doing common sense tests, as though it were
established fact.  What is the basis for your confidence?  It is not
Xanthoulis.  He acknowledged that there was a problem with the flow meter.
 He did not acknowledge that Defkalion prevented Gamberale from doing
common sense tests.

You are casting doubt on your objectivity.  You are beginning to sound like
Krivit.  You want to take a short-cut to get to a conclusion that you
believe to be true.  The conclusion about Defkalion that you want to get to
is probably spot-on.  But, at least from the information that has been made
public, all we have are assertions from parties directly involved
concerning Defkalion preventing Gamberale from making accurate
measurements.  This detail is likely to be true, but has not been
established to be true.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Peter Gluck  wrote:

How can a flowmeter give counts- and 1 Liter per minute is much when
> nothing goes through it?
>

You tell me! You are the one with insider information. Ask Xanthoulis or
Hadjichristos. They were the ones who insisted that Gamberale set up the
system that way. When he tried to install additional equipment to confirm
the flow rate, they ordered it removed without discussion. They stopped him
from doing common sense tests that would have revealed the flow meter was
not working. As soon as the people from Defkalion left the lab, Gamberale
tested the flow rate and found it registered even when the flow was zero.

Since even Xanthoulis admits this, I do not see why you dispute it.


>
> I just tell that this trick cannot be used to obtain
> increased number of counts with consistent values as recorded during the (
> hours demo I was watching till late night.
>

The values were not consistent. You are wrong about that. Read the
Gamberale report, and look at the oscilloscope traces in the report. The
flow meter reading on the screen looked consistent but the oscilloscope
showed they were randomly spaced, which proves they were not caused by a
constant flow of water from the tap. Instead, they were caused by water
sloshing back and forth.



> And please do not say DGT has no publications- see the ICCF-17, ICCF-18
> and PIM papers- . . .
>

I have seen them. I do not see any data from experiments in these papers.
Only vague generalizations, theory blather, graphs without proper labels,
and public relations bullshit. Such as this:

https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10355/36783/TheoreticalAnalysisReactionMechanisms.pdf?sequence=1

I have not seen any third-party verifications either.



> The Gamberale Report is just an attack against DGT - the Greek company had
> to protect its know-how.
>

Defkalion Europe was a joint venture with Defkalion. Defkalion owned half
of it. It was set up with an agreement to share the know-how. Why did
Defkalion have to protect its know-how against its own joint venture, in
violation of the contract?!? Why did they drive their own joint venture
into bankruptcy and lose hundreds of millions in potential business? I do
not see how that "protects" Defkalion.

And if this is "just an attack" why does Xanthoulis agree with it? He
admits the flow meter was not working. Is he attacking himself?

What you are saying makes no sense.



> However this discussion line can be continued only with the implication of
> the flowmeter manufacturers.
>

You seem to be saying that testing the flowmeter with a stopwatch and
cylinder, or showing it registers 1 L/min when the flow is zero are not
valid ways to test a flow meter. I am sure that if you ask the flow meter
manufacturers, they will tell you these are valid ways to confirm the meter
readings. I have read flow meter operating manuals that tell you do these
steps.

There are, in fact, no other ways to test flow meter. This is how you do
it. When the meter fails these tests, you can be sure it is not working.
There is no need to consult with a manufacturer. When you see no water
flowing through but the screen tells you it is 1 L/min., the instrument is
not working.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Peter Gluck]

How can a flowmeter give counts- and 1 Liter per minute is much when
nothing goes through it? I just tell that this trick cannot be used to
obtain
increased number of counts with consistent values as recorded during the (
hours demo I was watching till late night.
And please do not say DGT has no publications- see the ICCF-17, ICCF-18
and PIM papers- they tell too much about how they are working.
The Gamberale Report is just an attack against DGT - the Greek company had
to protect its know-how.
However this discussion line can be continued only with the implication of
the flowmeter manufacturers.
Peter.


On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 10:00 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Peter Gluck  wrote:
>
> Jed, do you really understand how the two valve one flowmeter works
>> and can be used to multiply the flow reading/recordings ?If not, please
>> ask a company that manufactures flowmeters and you will learn that reverse
>> flow is not recorded.
>>
>
> If the reverse flow is not recorded then it was the forward flow repeated
> several times for the same water. They observed a flow rate of 1 L/min when
> the flow rate was zero, so obviously the flow meter was malfunctioning.
> Gamberale measured the actual flow, with a stopwatch and cylinder, and he
> discovered that the flowmeter is wrong. Do you dispute that? On what basis?
>
> The president of Defkalion, Xanthoulis, agreed that it was not working.
> Why do you dispute him? Do you know something that Xanthoulis does not know?
>
> If the people at Defkalion could have answered Gamberale to show that the
> flow meter was correct, why didn't they? Why did they say nothing, and do
> nothing, while DE warned its customers that machine does not work, and then
> went bankrupt? You seem to be suggesting that they have good data, and they
> can prove the machine works, but rather than do this they threw away
> hundreds of millions of dollars in potential business and drove their own
> joint venture into bankruptcy. Why? This makes no sense.
>
> If you, or the people at Defkalion, have any proof this machine works, I
> suggest you reveal it now, before they end up in jail.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Peter Gluck  wrote:

Jed, do you really understand how the two valve one flowmeter works
> and can be used to multiply the flow reading/recordings ?If not, please
> ask a company that manufactures flowmeters and you will learn that reverse
> flow is not recorded.
>

If the reverse flow is not recorded then it was the forward flow repeated
several times for the same water. They observed a flow rate of 1 L/min when
the flow rate was zero, so obviously the flow meter was malfunctioning.
Gamberale measured the actual flow, with a stopwatch and cylinder, and he
discovered that the flowmeter is wrong. Do you dispute that? On what basis?

The president of Defkalion, Xanthoulis, agreed that it was not working. Why
do you dispute him? Do you know something that Xanthoulis does not know?

If the people at Defkalion could have answered Gamberale to show that the
flow meter was correct, why didn't they? Why did they say nothing, and do
nothing, while DE warned its customers that machine does not work, and then
went bankrupt? You seem to be suggesting that they have good data, and they
can prove the machine works, but rather than do this they threw away
hundreds of millions of dollars in potential business and drove their own
joint venture into bankruptcy. Why? This makes no sense.

If you, or the people at Defkalion, have any proof this machine works, I
suggest you reveal it now, before they end up in jail.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Peter Gluck]

Jed, do you really understand how the two valve one flowmeter works
and can be used to multiply the flow reading/recordings ?If not, please ask
a company that manufactures flowmeters and you will learn that reverse flow
is not recorded. The trick is what the French call trouvaille.The Italians
say "Se non e vero, e ben trovato" Naive is to accept what the Gamberale
report says- actually it does not refer to the actual Demo of July 23
And things are not what they seem in this case.
Peter.


On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Daniel Rocha  wrote:
>
> I didn't ever mention he merely got data or just observed it.
>>
>
> Ah. I thought that is what you were referring to. I do not know what you
> mean, if not that.
>
> Anyway, there is no data. There are only meaningless numbers from a
> mistake. Or from fraudulent settings of the valves. Kim's theories are
> based on nothing.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

The problem is that, it is how easy is to make HENI, as DGT calls the high
> yield cold fusion.
>

Apparently it is not easy. Not for DGT, anyway. They have not made
anything. No one has ever seen their system work. Or if someone has, the
report is being kept secret.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

I didn't ever mention he merely got data or just observed it.
>

Ah. I thought that is what you were referring to. I do not know what you
mean, if not that.

Anyway, there is no data. There are only meaningless numbers from a
mistake. Or from fraudulent settings of the valves. Kim's theories are
based on nothing.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

The problem is that, it is how easy is to make HENI, as DGT calls the high
yield cold fusion.  The mere seeing of it for one month, or a few weeks,
you can figure out. This is why Rossi is so paranoid.


2014-05-17 15:21 GMT-03:00 Daniel Rocha :

> I didn't ever mention he merely got data or just observed it.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

I didn't ever mention he merely got data or just observed it.




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:


> I wish you'd believe me he did not get the result in that way.  :)
>

Ask him. If Kim tells me he observed experiments himself, I will believe it.

I will still consider him naive. Even if he observed experiments, he could
not have checked the flow rate. He would have seen the device was not
producing excess heat. As far as I know, no one has every confirmed that it
produces excess heat, and all of the measurements of excess heat have been
mistaken. Perhaps there are measurements I did not hear about.

If the people at Defkalion have a legitimate, third party report showing
excess heat, they should publish it. They are in deep trouble. They may
even end up facing criminal charges for fraud. I presume a third party
report would exonerate them. So they should publish one if they have it.
Whatever business reasons they might have for secrecy, staying out the
courtroom and staying out of jail should be a higher priority.

I think it is unlikely any report exists. I also think it is unlikely the
device ever worked. I cannot tell whether this was fraud or incompetence.
The only way to find out would be to conduct an investigation with a
warrant to bring them in for questioning and search their e-mail and other
sources for evidence that they knew the flow rate was wrong, and they
deliberately set the valves to make it wrong. That is what Gamberale
alleges here:

http://matslew.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/defkalion-demo-proven-not-to-be-reliable/

Gamberale said, "To obtain this effect it’s necessary to operate two valves
in a certain way, so you need to have the intention to do it."

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

I wish you'd believe me he did not get the result in that way.  :)

Oh, well, what can I do! That's life! Beggars are not choosers! Hehe! But
did I learn a lot of physics and I will always be thankful, despite
whatever the outcome of this story is!


2014-05-16 22:49 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :

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> for Automatic Cleanup! (jedrothw...@gmail.com) Add cleanup 
> rule|
>  More
> info
>
> Daniel Rocha  wrote:
>
>
>> Come on Jed. So Kim is also naive?
>>
>
> Yes, unfortunately, he is, in my opinion. This is not the first time he
> accepted a result without careful consideration, and without sufficient
> proof.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:


> Come on Jed. So Kim is also naive?
>

Yes, unfortunately, he is, in my opinion. This is not the first time he
accepted a result without careful consideration, and without sufficient
proof.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

Well, I must admit, Cyclone is only slightly naive, but still...


2014-05-16 21:59 GMT-03:00 Daniel Rocha :

>
> Come on Jed. So Kim is also naive?  Is Cyclone also naive?
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

Come on Jed. So Kim is also naive?  Is Cyclone also naive?

-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

There is nothing abnormal here. Before signing a contract, they'd better
> certify that what DGT had was legit. Or just don't sign.
>

I agree! I wouldn't have signed. Or, as I said, when Gamberale was in
Vancouver he should have test the flow rate.


 You said even a plumber could do that. So, before signing they were naive
> and just got slightly below the level of expertise of a plubler after the
> signing and just a bit above after the demo. This doesn't make sense.
>

You are right. It does not make sense. I agree they were naive. As I said,
they failed to perform due diligence.



> Look, Gamberale is not naive.
>

He seems naive to me.



>  Or if he was, he should know better, since this probably wouldn't be his
> first time with him dealing with dishonesty.
>

Yes, that is the definition of naivete. Some people never learn, even from
experience. They are cheated time after time, even in old age.



>  For example, when he dealt with Blacklight. He pulled out of before the
> final version of the paper before was sent to the journal (which was
> rejected). Even though, Blacklight kept citing his name in further papers
> and in the patent . . .
>

Perhaps he is unaware of that? Perhaps he has not noticed they are using
his name? Maybe he does not read Blacklight's publications, so he did not
notice. They are obscure.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

He never took part after this incident.


2014-05-16 19:14 GMT-03:00 Daniel Rocha :

> There is nothing abnormal here. Before signing a contract, they'd better
> certify that what DGT had was legit. Or just don't sign. You said even a
> plumber could do that. So, before signing they were naive and just got
> slightly below the level of expertise of a plubler after the signing and
> just a bit above after the demo. This doesn't make sense.
>
> And you know this is absurd, because in the last paragraph you wrote "The
> "gentleman's agreement" was batty. That was a very stupid thing to agree
> too. If I had been there during the negotiations I would have raised hell
> as soon as DGT said that. I would not have agreed to any such thing, ever.
> In fact, if I had been Gamberale in Vancouver I would have demanded they do
> a proper verification or I would have called off the whole project. I have
> been fleeced enough times in business deals to know that you never trust
> anyone. You verify. That's called due diligence. If Gamberale did not
> confirm the flow rate in Vancouver, he did not perform due diligence."
>
> Look, Gamberale is not naive. Or if he was, he should know better, since this
> probably wouldn't be his first time with him dealing with dishonesty. For
> example, when he dealt with Blacklight. He pulled out of before the final
> version of the paper before was sent to the journal (which was rejected).
> Even though, Blacklight kept citing his name in further papers and in the
> patent, even citing the name of the journal, as it were indeed accepted.
> One could suppose that he could had joined after the first version of the
> paper, but the thing it is he never took part in a paper from Blacklight.
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

There is nothing abnormal here. Before signing a contract, they'd better
certify that what DGT had was legit. Or just don't sign. You said even a
plumber could do that. So, before signing they were naive and just got
slightly below the level of expertise of a plubler after the signing and
just a bit above after the demo. This doesn't make sense.

And you know this is absurd, because in the last paragraph you wrote "The
"gentleman's agreement" was batty. That was a very stupid thing to agree
too. If I had been there during the negotiations I would have raised hell
as soon as DGT said that. I would not have agreed to any such thing, ever.
In fact, if I had been Gamberale in Vancouver I would have demanded they do
a proper verification or I would have called off the whole project. I have
been fleeced enough times in business deals to know that you never trust
anyone. You verify. That's called due diligence. If Gamberale did not
confirm the flow rate in Vancouver, he did not perform due diligence."

Look, Gamberale is not naive. Or if he was, he should know better, since this
probably wouldn't be his first time with him dealing with dishonesty. For
example, when he dealt with Blacklight. He pulled out of before the final
version of the paper before was sent to the journal (which was rejected).
Even though, Blacklight kept citing his name in further papers and in the
patent, even citing the name of the journal, as it were indeed accepted.
One could suppose that he could had joined after the first version of the
paper, but the thing it is he never took part in a paper from Blacklight.


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

Right, so they sign a business without even knowing what they were getting
> into? Complete transfer of technology? This is full of bull.
>

How do you know? Did you read the contract?

Do you think they could perform industrial development without a complete
transfer of the technology? I don't see how.

Of course both sides need to sign a contract before the complete transfer
of technology. In this case, they also decided to form a joint venture. I
don't see any bull. This all normal business activity.

The abnormalities began after the joint venture started up, when the people
from Mose tried to implement standard methods of confirming the
calorimetry, and the people from Defkalion removed the Mose equipment
without discussion. That was a red flag!

As soon as the Greeks went home and the people from Mose got a chance to
the test correctly, they discovered it does not work. They asked the Greeks
for clarification. They got none. So, after a while they told their
potential customers "it does not work" and they put the company out of
business. If they had not done that they would probably be facing criminal
charges.

Let's see the timeline . . .

January 2013 Gamberale goes to the DGT laboratories in Vancouver to copy
them. Sets up a duplicate lab in Milan.

June 17, 2013 SA came to Milan to start the first test of the DGT
technology in the new laboratory. Very soon the demos for the European
companies started.

July 2013 DGT asked DE to organize a live stream of a demo to broadcast to
the ICCF18.

July 23, 2013 ICCF18 live streaming.

"This challenging request by DGT [to do live streaming for ICCF18] . . .
led DE to accelerate the clarification of some important technical aspects
of the calorimetry which until then had been denied by DGT. To this end,
overriding a gentlemen’s agreement, DE decided to undertake autonomous
tests to identify any malfunctions of the calorimetry protocol."

And . . . the jig was up.

The results in the report were obtained right after ICCF18. They asked for
clarification from DGT and "on the commercial side DE immediately
stopped/froze all negotiations with both Italian and foreign companies to
protect [DE's] clients."

So, it did not take them long to find the problem after they were allowed
to look for it, and they took action immediately. I recall DE announced
there were problems, and they cancelled all negotiations with clients. I
did not follow the story after that. I would say DE are blameless, although
perhaps they had an obligation to inform the public in more detail.

When DE announced they had a problem, I thought: "Ah, it didn't work. As
everyone says, the damn flowmeter bit them on the butt." I did not realize
the extent of it. I had no idea DGT forbid them from doing the test
correctly, and removed equipment to stop them. That goes over the line.
WAAY over the line. If I were a police investigator I would toss their
offices and haul them in for questioning on the strength of that allegation.

The "gentleman's agreement" was batty. That was a very stupid thing to
agree too. If I had been there during the negotiations I would have raised
hell as soon as DGT said that. I would not have agreed to any such thing,
ever. In fact, if I had been Gamberale in Vancouver I would have demanded
they do a proper verification or I would have called off the whole project.
I have been fleeced enough times in business deals to know that you never
trust anyone. You verify. That's called due diligence. If Gamberale did not
confirm the flow rate in Vancouver, he did not perform due diligence.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Daniel Rocha]

Right, so they sign a business without even knowing what they were getting
into? Complete transfer of technology? This is full of bull.


2014-05-16 16:11 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :

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> for Automatic Cleanup! (jedrothw...@gmail.com) Add cleanup 
> rule|
>  More
> info
>
> Daniel Rocha  wrote:
>
> Where did you get that Defkalion Europe was a joint venture?
>>
>
> The Gamberale report:
>
> "In November 2012 an Italian company based in Milan and named Mose srl
> signed an exclusive contract for the european industrial development of
> this technology. This contract provides for the complete transfer of the
> DGT technology to Defkalion Europe (DE), an Italian company (50% DGT and
> 50% Mose and composed exclusively of Italian members of Mose) . . ."
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GamberaleLfinaltechn.pdf
>
> In American business jargon, a company owned half by Defkalion and half by
> Mose is a "joint venture."
>
> - Jed
>
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

[Vo]:Defkalion Europe (DE) was a joint venture

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

Where did you get that Defkalion Europe was a joint venture?
>

The Gamberale report:

"In November 2012 an Italian company based in Milan and named Mose srl
signed an exclusive contract for the european industrial development of
this technology. This contract provides for the complete transfer of the
DGT technology to Defkalion Europe (DE), an Italian company (50% DGT and
50% Mose and composed exclusively of Italian members of Mose) . . ."

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GamberaleLfinaltechn.pdf

In American business jargon, a company owned half by Defkalion and half by
Mose is a "joint venture."

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Daniel Rocha]

Maybe DGT made a mistake with a hose!


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

I wrote:


> I heard from Mike Nelson today, and confirmed that is what it was. "More
> extensive tests were needed." DE finally did these extensive tests, and now
> we know the facts.
>

I mean that Mike Nelson said "More extensive tests were needed."

Lewan described Nelson's report:

"The report was fairly extensive but contained no data, only a sort of
checklist of what had been implemented and a summary of the results. The
summary was interesting, though Nelson stressed that the results must be
considered provisional until more accurate tests had been performed."

Nelson agreed. In a message to me he commented, "And that was exactly what
happened"

He said "more extensive tests were needed" and that is just what we finally
got -- more tests. He never meant to endorse the claims. He sure did not
endorse them when I spoke with him last year. As I have said many times, he
and the others said things like, "it doesn't work" or "I couldn't tell" or
"more tests are needed" or "meh, it wasn't worth the trip." Not one of them
told me it worked, and I sure as heck would not have reported they did,
after hearing so many negative reports.

I figured it was a mistake. It looks more like fraud now. Inept fraud. But
I can't tell. I am not an investigator. I cannot bring those people into a
police station and grill them, or get a warrant to look through their
business records and correspondence.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

The right word might be crimination. I don't believe that I am meeting the
> spirit of Jed's responces as follows:
>
> 1. to charge with a crime.
> 2. to incriminate.
> 3. to censure (something) as criminal: condemn
>

Franco Cappiello implied they are criminals, or at least that they will be
open to civil suits. I am just reporting what he said. As I said, I do not
know enough about the facts to judge whether it was stupidity or fraud.
Cappiello said:


We can talk about activities that will surely have legal aftermath, in the
courts of the countries where Defkalion Green Technology has [operated].

Possiamo parlare di attività che avranno sicuramente strascichi legali, nei
tribunali dei paesi dove Defkalion Green Technology ha operato.


The Defkalion GT put in front of all the NASA report, reports, and
measurements made by important scientists specialists calorimetry, but then
you have verified that they were all manipulated and exploited for their
own use .

It is clear that behind all this there could be a criminal intention

È chiaro che dietro a tutto ciò ci potrebbe essere un disegno criminoso.


In my opinion the NASA report Cappiello refers to was a checklist, not an
endorsement. I heard from Mike Nelson today, and confirmed that is what it
was. "More extensive tests were needed." DE finally did these extensive
tests, and now we know the facts.

Axil is upset with me because of what the people at DE said, and what
president Xanthoulis of Defkalion confirmed. His anger is misdirected. He
should railing against Xanthoulis, not me.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

The level of competence needed to verify the claimed error is not much
> higher than of a plumber.
>

Not higher at all. Any plumber on earth could have verified it in 10
minutes. That is exactly what plumbers do when they test boilers. You can
see that in the forms they fill out for certified safety inspections.

This is one of the tests they do. Some of the others are more complicated
and difficult. See:

http://www.peci.org/ftguide/ftg/SystemModules/Boilers/Functional_Testing_for_Boilers.htm

The people at DE were able to prove the thing does not work as soon as
everyone from Greece went home and they had a free hand. When they set up
verification equipment before that, the Greeks removed it "without
discussion." That's suspicious behavior, to say the least.


But, you don't know the staff of DGT to make such claim.
>

I am not sure what you mean by that.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

DGT was producing steam, not 212 water.
>

They were producing a little steam because there was no water flowing into
the cell.



> The change of state energy from water to steam was not reflected in the
> COP calculations. Yes this is inaccurate, but gross under estimate of the
> COP.
>

That would only be true if the flow is correct. Or partially correct. When
you adjust for a much lower flow rate, or no flow at all, then the steam
does not indicate any excess heat, any more than steam from a pot of water
on an electric stove proves there is an anomaly.



> Jed, you are whipping yourselfer into a frenzy of recombination.
>

Well, at least recombination is appropriate for this field.



>  Such a negative position will damage your reputation if DGT does have
> something that you say they don't.
>

If they have something and they publish it, of course I will agree it is
real. As long as they publish nothing I am justified in saying "as far as I
know they have nothing."



> A charge of bad judgment might be leveled upon DGT success.
>

Since they have not published any evidence of success, no one can blame me
for concluding they have had no success. I do not have ESP.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Terry Blanton]

On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
> Judas Iscariot was said to be the brightest of the 12 apostates, but the
> least trustworthy.

Just the opposite, according to the Gnostic Gospel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Axil Axil]

The right word might be crimination. I don't believe that I am meeting the
spirit of Jed's responces as follows:

1. to charge with a crime.
2. to incriminate.
3. to censure (something) as criminal: condemn


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Kevin O'Malley wrote:

>
>
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Jed, you are whipping yourselfer into a frenzy of [recrimination].
>>
> Pot, meet kettle.
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Kevin O'Malley]

On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

>
>
> Jed, you are whipping yourselfer into a frenzy of [recrimination].
>
Pot, meet kettle.

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Axil Axil]

*Judas Iscariot* was said to be the brightest of the 12 apostates, but the
least trustworthy.


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

>"Gamberale has a PhD in theoretical high energy physics from the
> University of Milan, and at the Milan based Pirelli Labs he has further
> developed the theoretical work in coherent electrodynamics by his
> countryman, late Dr. Giuliano Preparata. Among his experimental work he has
> been assessing the technology of Black Light Power. He has also made
> studies on electrochemical loading of palladium wires."
>
>
>
> Gamberale’s association with Preparata speaks for itself. Martin
> Fleischmann described Preparata as “ the smartest person I ever knew.” Here
> is a nice obit by Miley of an unsung hero of LENR:
>
> http://newenergytimes.com/v2/views/Group1/Preparata.shtml
>
>
>
> Unless he has suffered recent “brain damage”… ala Hillary/Rove … one would
> have to conclude that Gamberale’s level of competence surpasses the entire
> staff of DGT by an order of magnitude.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Daniel Rocha]

The level of competence needed to verify the claimed error is not much
higher than of a plumber. But, you don't know the staff of DGT to make such
claim.


2014-05-16 13:07 GMT-03:00 Jones Beene :

> Gamberale’s level of competence surpasses the entire staff of DGT by
> an order of magnitude.
>
>
>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

RE: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jones Beene]

"Gamberale has a PhD in theoretical high energy physics from the University of 
Milan, and at the Milan based Pirelli Labs he has further developed the 
theoretical work in coherent electrodynamics by his countryman, late Dr. 
Giuliano Preparata. Among his experimental work he has been assessing the 
technology of Black Light Power. He has also made studies on electrochemical 
loading of palladium wires."

 

Gamberale’s association with Preparata speaks for itself. Martin Fleischmann 
described Preparata as “ the smartest person I ever knew.” Here is a nice obit 
by Miley of an unsung hero of LENR:

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/views/Group1/Preparata.shtml

 

Unless he has suffered recent “brain damage”… ala Hillary/Rove … one would have 
to conclude that Gamberale’s level of competence surpasses the entire staff of 
DGT by an order of magnitude.

 

 

 

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Axil Axil]

Recombination shoud read Recrimination.


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> DGT was producing steam, not 212 water. The change of state energy from
> water to steam was not reflected in the COP calculations. Yes this is
> inaccurate, but gross under estimate of the COP. I am depending on memory,
> correct me if I have erred.
>
> Jed, you are whipping yourselfer into a frenzy of recombination. Such
> a negative position will damage your reputation if DGT does have something
> that you say they don't. A charge of bad judgment might be leveled upon DGT
> success.
>
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> Axil Axil  wrote:
>>
>> I judge the MIT conference that DGT pulled out of as a sign of disgust
>>> with the powers that be in the LENR field and the first step at going dark
>>> to them for DGT.
>>>
>>
>> They pulled out because they knew this scandal would soon break. They
>> knew the jig was up.
>>
>> I knew it too. I have heard from NI and many others that the flow rate
>> was bogus. I did not know it was as bad as this! I assumed it was a mistake.
>>
>> There is world of difference between an honest mistake and a company that
>> does not allow its own joint venture to take elementary precautions to
>> confirm the measurements. We all make stupid mistakes from time to time.
>> But when a company goes out of its way to prevent a proper test, that
>> stinks. It is tantamount to fraud, even if fraud is not intended.
>> "Tantamount" meaning it might as well be fraud, for all intents and
>> purposes. If I were on the jury I would hardly see the need to make the
>> distinction or prove intent.
>>
>> I cannot imagine why Axil is defending these people, when their own
>> president has clearly stated the flow calorimetry was wrong. He knew that
>> the day after the ICCF18 demo. He has been covering up ever since. What
>> more proof of dishonesty and bad faith can you ask for?
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Axil Axil]

DGT was producing steam, not 212 water. The change of state energy from
water to steam was not reflected in the COP calculations. Yes this is
inaccurate, but gross under estimate of the COP. I am depending on memory,
correct me if I have erred.

Jed, you are whipping yourselfer into a frenzy of recombination. Such
a negative position will damage your reputation if DGT does have something
that you say they don't. A charge of bad judgment might be leveled upon DGT
success.


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> I judge the MIT conference that DGT pulled out of as a sign of disgust
>> with the powers that be in the LENR field and the first step at going dark
>> to them for DGT.
>>
>
> They pulled out because they knew this scandal would soon break. They knew
> the jig was up.
>
> I knew it too. I have heard from NI and many others that the flow rate was
> bogus. I did not know it was as bad as this! I assumed it was a mistake.
>
> There is world of difference between an honest mistake and a company that
> does not allow its own joint venture to take elementary precautions to
> confirm the measurements. We all make stupid mistakes from time to time.
> But when a company goes out of its way to prevent a proper test, that
> stinks. It is tantamount to fraud, even if fraud is not intended.
> "Tantamount" meaning it might as well be fraud, for all intents and
> purposes. If I were on the jury I would hardly see the need to make the
> distinction or prove intent.
>
> I cannot imagine why Axil is defending these people, when their own
> president has clearly stated the flow calorimetry was wrong. He knew that
> the day after the ICCF18 demo. He has been covering up ever since. What
> more proof of dishonesty and bad faith can you ask for?
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

I judge the MIT conference that DGT pulled out of as a sign of disgust with
> the powers that be in the LENR field and the first step at going dark to
> them for DGT.
>

They pulled out because they knew this scandal would soon break. They knew
the jig was up.

I knew it too. I have heard from NI and many others that the flow rate was
bogus. I did not know it was as bad as this! I assumed it was a mistake.

There is world of difference between an honest mistake and a company that
does not allow its own joint venture to take elementary precautions to
confirm the measurements. We all make stupid mistakes from time to time.
But when a company goes out of its way to prevent a proper test, that
stinks. It is tantamount to fraud, even if fraud is not intended.
"Tantamount" meaning it might as well be fraud, for all intents and
purposes. If I were on the jury I would hardly see the need to make the
distinction or prove intent.

I cannot imagine why Axil is defending these people, when their own
president has clearly stated the flow calorimetry was wrong. He knew that
the day after the ICCF18 demo. He has been covering up ever since. What
more proof of dishonesty and bad faith can you ask for?

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

I am referring to the documents and presentations produced by Dr. Kim with
> DGT for ICCF conferences. Have you read any of them?
>

Kim based his statements on data from Defkalion, showing excess heat. That
data was completely wrong. It was either a mistake or fraud. I am pretty
sure the other data from Defkalion about magnetic fields and so on was also
bogus. Kim based his statements on a complete fantasy.

He never even saw the machine work! (Supposedly work. Appear to work.)



> Does Rossi produce like data?
>

No, but ELFORSK did. Also, that is real data, whereas Defkalion's "data"
was bogus nonsense, as the president of Defkalion admitted. I do not
understand why you believe data that the president of the company now
admits was wrong.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Axil Axil]

I judge the MIT conference that DGT pulled out of as a sign of disgust with
the powers that be in the LENR field and the first step at going dark to
them for DGT.


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> I am referring to the documents and presentations produced by Dr. Kim with
> DGT for ICCF conferences. Have you read any of them?
>
> Does Rossi produce like data?
>
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> Axil Axil  wrote:
>>
>> Experimental information describing the Ni/H reactor is dammed hard to
>>> come by.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, because Defkalion refused to publish anything. Now that Gamberale
>> has published and Xanthoulis, the president of Defkalion confirmed him, we
>> have all experimental information we need. It is case closed.
>>
>>
>>
>>> With the negativity toward DGT shown by much of the LENR elite, our best
>>> source of this precious info will be cut off for no good reason.
>>>
>>
>> What do you mean "cut off"?!? This is the first time any technical
>> information about Defkalion has ever been published. It is detailed. It is
>> definitive. It proves they have no heat and their calorimetry is completely
>> mistaken. This is rock solid information, confirmed by the president of
>> Defkalion. What more do you want?
>>
>>
>>
>>> What good does it do for Jed to undercut anyone in this field,
>>> especially such a rich source of info.
>>>
>>
>> I have nothing to do with this. I played no role. I have no influence on
>> Defkalion. I have not "undercut" anyone. The top people at Defkalion Europe
>> proved that the claims are bogus. The president of Defkalion agreed with
>> them.
>>
>> If you do not even believe Xanthoulis on this matter, who will you
>> believe?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Why risk the flow of rich LENR experimental info . . .
>>>
>>
>> What you are talking about??? There has never been ONE SCRAP OF
>> INFORMATION FROM DEFKALION. Not one graph, not one table of numbers.
>> NOTHING. If you disagree, show me some data published previously.
>>
>> You need to stop blaming this on me. If you know of some data from
>> Defkalion, you need to point it out. I do not mean theoretical speculation
>> from Kim, either. I mean experimental data. They never published any. They
>> still have not published anything. The joint venture company Defkalion
>> Europe published.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Axil Axil]

I am referring to the documents and presentations produced by Dr. Kim with
DGT for ICCF conferences. Have you read any of them?

Does Rossi produce like data?


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> Experimental information describing the Ni/H reactor is dammed hard to
>> come by.
>>
>
> Yes, because Defkalion refused to publish anything. Now that Gamberale has
> published and Xanthoulis, the president of Defkalion confirmed him, we have
> all experimental information we need. It is case closed.
>
>
>
>> With the negativity toward DGT shown by much of the LENR elite, our best
>> source of this precious info will be cut off for no good reason.
>>
>
> What do you mean "cut off"?!? This is the first time any technical
> information about Defkalion has ever been published. It is detailed. It is
> definitive. It proves they have no heat and their calorimetry is completely
> mistaken. This is rock solid information, confirmed by the president of
> Defkalion. What more do you want?
>
>
>
>> What good does it do for Jed to undercut anyone in this field, especially
>> such a rich source of info.
>>
>
> I have nothing to do with this. I played no role. I have no influence on
> Defkalion. I have not "undercut" anyone. The top people at Defkalion Europe
> proved that the claims are bogus. The president of Defkalion agreed with
> them.
>
> If you do not even believe Xanthoulis on this matter, who will you believe?
>
>
>
>> Why risk the flow of rich LENR experimental info . . .
>>
>
> What you are talking about??? There has never been ONE SCRAP OF
> INFORMATION FROM DEFKALION. Not one graph, not one table of numbers.
> NOTHING. If you disagree, show me some data published previously.
>
> You need to stop blaming this on me. If you know of some data from
> Defkalion, you need to point it out. I do not mean theoretical speculation
> from Kim, either. I mean experimental data. They never published any. They
> still have not published anything. The joint venture company Defkalion
> Europe published.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Daniel Rocha]

Where did you get that Defkalion Europe was a joint venture?



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:

Experimental information describing the Ni/H reactor is dammed hard to come
> by.
>

Yes, because Defkalion refused to publish anything. Now that Gamberale has
published and Xanthoulis, the president of Defkalion confirmed him, we have
all experimental information we need. It is case closed.



> With the negativity toward DGT shown by much of the LENR elite, our best
> source of this precious info will be cut off for no good reason.
>

What do you mean "cut off"?!? This is the first time any technical
information about Defkalion has ever been published. It is detailed. It is
definitive. It proves they have no heat and their calorimetry is completely
mistaken. This is rock solid information, confirmed by the president of
Defkalion. What more do you want?



> What good does it do for Jed to undercut anyone in this field, especially
> such a rich source of info.
>

I have nothing to do with this. I played no role. I have no influence on
Defkalion. I have not "undercut" anyone. The top people at Defkalion Europe
proved that the claims are bogus. The president of Defkalion agreed with
them.

If you do not even believe Xanthoulis on this matter, who will you believe?



> Why risk the flow of rich LENR experimental info . . .
>

What you are talking about??? There has never been ONE SCRAP OF INFORMATION
FROM DEFKALION. Not one graph, not one table of numbers. NOTHING. If you
disagree, show me some data published previously.

You need to stop blaming this on me. If you know of some data from
Defkalion, you need to point it out. I do not mean theoretical speculation
from Kim, either. I mean experimental data. They never published any. They
still have not published anything. The joint venture company Defkalion
Europe published.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

Eric Walker  wrote:


> As has been mentioned, we don't know much about Gamberale.
>

We do know a lot about him. Lewan has a link to his biography, and he just
added this to his blog:

"Gamberale has a PhD in theoretical high energy physics from the University
of Milan, and at the Milan based Pirelli Labs he has further developed the
theoretical work in coherent electrodynamics by his countryman, late Dr.
Giuliano Preparata. Among his experimental work he has been assessing the
technology of Black Light Power. He has also made studies on
electrochemical loading of palladium wires."

Anyway, we don't need to know about him. The president of Defkalion agreed
that the flow calorimetry was wrong. So did Hadjichristos and the guy from
NI. Everyone now agrees it was not working. Only one question remains: was
it a mistake, or fraud?



>  I recall that his conclusion about the flow meter was validated by others
> you know.
>

Yes. Others including Alexander Xanthoulis, the president of Defkalion,
quoted by Lewan. Who else are you waiting for? What more proof do you want?



> We have two different accounts that conflict in spirit, one in which
> Xanthoulis says that Gamberale decided how to do the measurements, and one
> in which Gamberale says that Defkalion decided how to do the measurements.
>

Defkalion's "methods" were garbage. They had numbers on the screen with no
verification at all. I have been putting numbers on computer screens for 40
years and I am here to tell you that numbers mean nothing without proper
verification.

When Gamberale used his own methods, he discovered the problem immediately.
It is obvious that his methods work and Defkalion's do not. This is beyond
dispute. Gamberale's methods are the ones that I or anyone else with an
ounce of common sense would use. As I said, this is not rocket science.



> But I am not persuaded one way or the other that Gamberale's account is
> not an exaggerated or misleading one in some details.
>

NI and everyone else who has looked into in confirm the account. The
numbers in the report tell the story. There is no doubt about any of it.
The flow rate was completely bogus.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Foks0904 .]

*our best source of this precious info will be cut off for no good reason.
What good does it do for Jed to undercut anyone in this field, especially
such a rich source of info.*

DGT isn't basing their decisions to release information to the public based
on what Jed thinks or has to say on the subject (or any of us for that
matter). As I said, I'm keeping an open mind, and I'm willing to give
DGT till at least this summer to produce something of relevance (assuming
their statements about independent testing, etcetera, is true). I don't see
much point in being hyper-negative about the entire thing either. But to
say they have been a "rich source of info" is a dubious statement, and to
think that they definitely will be a "rich source of info" in the future is
also a leap of faith based, I think, on your own emotional/psychological
attachment to them. Again, you hint at all this valuable information, but
it seems only you and Peter are privy to it, leaving the rest of us in the
cold.

*Jed is narrow in his priorities, all he is interested in is boiling water.*

Jed may rub you the wrong way and be a tad snarky & hard-nosed sometimes,
but that's a bit silly. Are you doing the same by questioning your own
priorities and reasons for defending DGT, as much as you question Jed's
reasons for challenging them? I'm not so sure.

*So what if DGT has made some mistakes at this specialty. Why risk the flow
of rich LENR experimental info for water boiling mistakes that everybody
makes? It is just so unfortunate.*

I don't think we're risking anything by being critical. DGT doesn't give a
damn what we think quite frankly. The only thing that matters is them
living up to the standards of their investors, which doesn't seem to be
happening at the moment. I'll agree with you that the situation overall is
unfortunate, and I'm happy to give them a bit of time to respond/prove
themselves, but criticism and negativity is not exactly unwarranted all
things considered. But at the same time we can still root for them. It
would be silly not to.




On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> Experimental information describing the Ni/H reactor is dammed hard to
> come by. With the negativity toward DGT shown by much of the LENR elite,
> our best source of this precious info will be cut off for no good reason.
> What good does it do for Jed to undercut anyone in this field, especially
> such a rich source of info. Jed is narrow in his priorities, all he is
> interested in is boiling water. So what if DGT has made some mistakes at
> this specialty. Why risk the flow of rich LENR experimental info for water
> boiling mistakes that everybody makes? It is just so unfortunate.
>
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Foks0904 .  wrote:
>
>> I haven't made up my mind one way or another, I want DGT to succeed as
>> I've always had a certain amount of belief in them despite their
>> shortcomings, but in regards to labeling Jed as biased, couldn't the same
>> be said of you? I.e. that it's comforting to think Gamberale
>> is unfairly attacking and trying to undermine DGT for no good reason, who
>> you've based much of your theory crafting and had some variety of
>> relationship with for awhile now? You always seem to claim they've proved
>> far more than they have. Jed is not the only one with doubts, and you have
>> some sort of personal involvement with DGT (whatever it is) that could be
>> clouding your judgment as well, so we should quit with the armchair
>> psychology unless we want it turned back upon ourselves. Anyone who says
>> it's "for sure" this way or that is taking a rather large leap of faith and
>> not a wait-and-see rational approach. I'll leave it at that.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>>
>>> Human nature demands that you believe the guy who states exactly  what
>>> you want to believe.
>>>
>>> Gamberale gives Jed a warm feeling.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Eric Walker wrote:
>>>
 On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Jed Rothwell 
 wrote:

 "I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked for a comment. He didn’t
> dispute the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric
> set-up at the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale
> confirmed this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
> instructions from Defkalion, and that when Mose added some component, such
> as another independent flow meter or another method for measuring thermal
> heat output, these additional components were immediately removed by
> Defkalion personnel without discussions."
>
> If they are not swindlers . . . then for some reason they are trying
> to make themselves look like swindlers, when they do things like this.
>

 As has been mentioned, we don't know much about Gamberale.  I recall
 that his conclusion about the flow meter was validated by others you know.
  But I haven't he

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Axil Axil]

Experimental information describing the Ni/H reactor is dammed hard to come
by. With the negativity toward DGT shown by much of the LENR elite, our
best source of this precious info will be cut off for no good reason. What
good does it do for Jed to undercut anyone in this field, especially such a
rich source of info. Jed is narrow in his priorities, all he is interested
in is boiling water. So what if DGT has made some mistakes at this
specialty. Why risk the flow of rich LENR experimental info for water
boiling mistakes that everybody makes? It is just so unfortunate.


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Foks0904 .  wrote:

> I haven't made up my mind one way or another, I want DGT to succeed as
> I've always had a certain amount of belief in them despite their
> shortcomings, but in regards to labeling Jed as biased, couldn't the same
> be said of you? I.e. that it's comforting to think Gamberale
> is unfairly attacking and trying to undermine DGT for no good reason, who
> you've based much of your theory crafting and had some variety of
> relationship with for awhile now? You always seem to claim they've proved
> far more than they have. Jed is not the only one with doubts, and you have
> some sort of personal involvement with DGT (whatever it is) that could be
> clouding your judgment as well, so we should quit with the armchair
> psychology unless we want it turned back upon ourselves. Anyone who says
> it's "for sure" this way or that is taking a rather large leap of faith and
> not a wait-and-see rational approach. I'll leave it at that.
>
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>> Human nature demands that you believe the guy who states exactly  what
>> you want to believe.
>>
>> Gamberale gives Jed a warm feeling.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Eric Walker wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>>
>>> "I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked for a comment. He didn’t
 dispute the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric
 set-up at the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale
 confirmed this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
 instructions from Defkalion, and that when Mose added some component, such
 as another independent flow meter or another method for measuring thermal
 heat output, these additional components were immediately removed by
 Defkalion personnel without discussions."

 If they are not swindlers . . . then for some reason they are trying to
 make themselves look like swindlers, when they do things like this.

>>>
>>> As has been mentioned, we don't know much about Gamberale.  I recall
>>> that his conclusion about the flow meter was validated by others you know.
>>>  But I haven't heard about validation of all of his statements, especially
>>> the ones concerning his being made to do this or that.  We have two
>>> different accounts that conflict in spirit, one in which Xanthoulis says
>>> that Gamberale decided how to do the measurements, and one in which
>>> Gamberale says that Defkalion decided how to do the measurements.
>>>
>>> To be sure, even with what has been substantiated, the situation is an
>>> embarrassing one for Defkalion.  But I am not persuaded one way or the
>>> other that Gamberale's account is not an exaggerated or misleading one in
>>> some details.  It would be nice to know more about him or to have
>>> third-party verification of some of the other things he's saying.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Foks0904 .]

I haven't made up my mind one way or another, I want DGT to succeed as I've
always had a certain amount of belief in them despite their shortcomings,
but in regards to labeling Jed as biased, couldn't the same be said of you?
I.e. that it's comforting to think Gamberale is unfairly attacking and
trying to undermine DGT for no good reason, who you've based much of your
theory crafting and had some variety of relationship with for awhile now?
You always seem to claim they've proved far more than they have. Jed is not
the only one with doubts, and you have some sort of personal involvement
with DGT (whatever it is) that could be clouding your judgment as well, so
we should quit with the armchair psychology unless we want it turned back
upon ourselves. Anyone who says it's "for sure" this way or that is taking
a rather large leap of faith and not a wait-and-see rational approach. I'll
leave it at that.


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> Human nature demands that you believe the guy who states exactly  what you
> want to believe.
>
> Gamberale gives Jed a warm feeling.
>
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Eric Walker wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>
>> "I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked for a comment. He didn’t dispute
>>> the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric set-up at
>>> the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale confirmed
>>> this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
>>> instructions from Defkalion, and that when Mose added some component, such
>>> as another independent flow meter or another method for measuring thermal
>>> heat output, these additional components were immediately removed by
>>> Defkalion personnel without discussions."
>>>
>>> If they are not swindlers . . . then for some reason they are trying to
>>> make themselves look like swindlers, when they do things like this.
>>>
>>
>> As has been mentioned, we don't know much about Gamberale.  I recall that
>> his conclusion about the flow meter was validated by others you know.  But
>> I haven't heard about validation of all of his statements, especially the
>> ones concerning his being made to do this or that.  We have two different
>> accounts that conflict in spirit, one in which Xanthoulis says that
>> Gamberale decided how to do the measurements, and one in which Gamberale
>> says that Defkalion decided how to do the measurements.
>>
>> To be sure, even with what has been substantiated, the situation is an
>> embarrassing one for Defkalion.  But I am not persuaded one way or the
>> other that Gamberale's account is not an exaggerated or misleading one in
>> some details.  It would be nice to know more about him or to have
>> third-party verification of some of the other things he's saying.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Axil Axil]

Human nature demands that you believe the guy who states exactly  what you
want to believe.

Gamberale gives Jed a warm feeling.


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> "I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked for a comment. He didn’t dispute
>> the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric set-up at
>> the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale confirmed
>> this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
>> instructions from Defkalion, and that when Mose added some component, such
>> as another independent flow meter or another method for measuring thermal
>> heat output, these additional components were immediately removed by
>> Defkalion personnel without discussions."
>>
>> If they are not swindlers . . . then for some reason they are trying to
>> make themselves look like swindlers, when they do things like this.
>>
>
> As has been mentioned, we don't know much about Gamberale.  I recall that
> his conclusion about the flow meter was validated by others you know.  But
> I haven't heard about validation of all of his statements, especially the
> ones concerning his being made to do this or that.  We have two different
> accounts that conflict in spirit, one in which Xanthoulis says that
> Gamberale decided how to do the measurements, and one in which Gamberale
> says that Defkalion decided how to do the measurements.
>
> To be sure, even with what has been substantiated, the situation is an
> embarrassing one for Defkalion.  But I am not persuaded one way or the
> other that Gamberale's account is not an exaggerated or misleading one in
> some details.  It would be nice to know more about him or to have
> third-party verification of some of the other things he's saying.
>
> Eric
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Eric Walker]

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

"I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked for a comment. He didn’t dispute
> the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric set-up at
> the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale confirmed
> this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
> instructions from Defkalion, and that when Mose added some component, such
> as another independent flow meter or another method for measuring thermal
> heat output, these additional components were immediately removed by
> Defkalion personnel without discussions."
>
> If they are not swindlers . . . then for some reason they are trying to
> make themselves look like swindlers, when they do things like this.
>

As has been mentioned, we don't know much about Gamberale.  I recall that
his conclusion about the flow meter was validated by others you know.  But
I haven't heard about validation of all of his statements, especially the
ones concerning his being made to do this or that.  We have two different
accounts that conflict in spirit, one in which Xanthoulis says that
Gamberale decided how to do the measurements, and one in which Gamberale
says that Defkalion decided how to do the measurements.

To be sure, even with what has been substantiated, the situation is an
embarrassing one for Defkalion.  But I am not persuaded one way or the
other that Gamberale's account is not an exaggerated or misleading one in
some details.  It would be nice to know more about him or to have
third-party verification of some of the other things he's saying.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

I am going to upload Gamberale's report to LENR-CANR.org. I will add a news
item about Lewan's book and this report.

- Jed

[Vo]:Defkalion looked promising at first

[Jed Rothwell]

Many people here feel bad that they were taken in by Defkalion. For
example, David Roberson  wrote:

I vividly recall the forum BS.  Many questions were asked concerning module
> testing which they insisted was happening within their lab.   Looking back
> now I realize that they were shamelessly lying.
>

You should not be so hard on yourself. When I first heard from them, they
seemed legitimate. Maybe they were. People went to visit them. They sent me
photos of a well equipped lab. They met with a staff of serious,
knowledgeable, hard working young people.

Those people are long gone.

It seems the whole thing fell apart after Rossi broke the contract. My
guess is that he never transferred the technology to them. That's what he
said, and I suppose it must be true. Maybe they thought they knew how to
make the gadget work without his help, but they did not.

The people working in the laboratory seemed legit, but the business
arrangements were crazy from the get-go. As far as I know, Rossi broke the
contract because they did not pay him the agreed sum. I have heard it was a
fantastic amount of money: 100 million Euros. I heard it was predicated on
him performing benchmark tests such as a successful test of the 1 MW
reactor. Who on earth would promise to pay €100 million before the
technology is transferred?!? Who would build the 1 MW reactor when you can
barely control a kilowatt reactor? Both Defkalion on and Rossi were making
decisions and writing contracts that seemed utterly crazy to me. And
amateur. Rossi told me that Defkalion demanded the 1 MW reactor test, and
Defkalion told me that was Rossi's idea. I have no idea what to make of it.

Anyway, they seemed legitimate for a while, so don't feel bad if you were
fooled. Maybe they were legitimate. Without technical data there is no way
to judge. Whatever they once were, the latest revelations from Lewan imply
that the company now resorts to straight-out fraud. I refer to this
statement: '"To obtain this effect it’s necessary to operate two valves in
a certain way, so you need to have the intention to do it,' Gamberale told
me."

David Roberson also wrote:


> MY was hard on them in the forum and now I apologize to him/her for
> thinking that he was out of line.


I thought her questions were appropriate for that forum. The fact that they
did not answer was as informative as an answer would be. Silence speaks
volumes.

MY was reasonable asking questions in the Defkalion forum. She was not
reasonable asking those same questions here. No one here speaks for
Defkalion. No one here should be held responsible for their actions or
their decisions, and no one should have to answer for them. I recall she
also made accusations here, that we were patsies for Defkalion. It seems to
me it is okay to stay neutral when there is not enough evidence. Even if a
claim looks fishy I do not see why I should reach a conclusion one way or
the other. I am not in charge of an investment fund. I'm not a policeman. I
have the right to my opinion, and the right to no opinion.



> DGT still can clear up their name with adequate proof, but I am not
> betting upon it at this time.


Assuming they have adequate proof, they might have done this any time since
they went public. They are now broke, and Defkalion Europe went out of
business. If they had experimental data proving their claims surely they
would have published it long ago.

Anyway as you see in Lewan's report, they do not dispute Gamberale's report:

"I called Alexander Xanthoulis and asked for a comment. He didn’t dispute
the result of the report but pointed out that the calorimetric set-up at
the Milan demo was not made by Defkalion but by Mose. Gamberale confirmed
this but explained that the set-up was made according to strict
instructions from Defkalion, and that when Mose added some component, such
as another independent flow meter or another method for measuring thermal
heat output, these additional components were immediately removed by
Defkalion personnel without discussions."

If they are not swindlers . . . then for some reason they are trying to
make themselves look like swindlers, when they do things like this.

I get a sense Xanthoulis does not understand the technical issues. He is
out of his depth. Wasn't he the one who bragged that they had
surreptitiously acquired the technology? Apparently he was wrong.

- Jed