On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Quincey Morris
quinceymor...@rivergatesoftware.com wrote:
On Jun 17, 2015, at 00:56 , Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
To me this is actually a good thing that I’ll be sorry to see go away in
Swift.
With a separate header that only contains the
On Jun 21, 2015, at 03:24 , Stephane Sudre dev.iceb...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe I misinterpreted the presentations, but this is not a property
of the language (i.e. Swift 2), it's the IDE that does this. Which
means that would you edit Swift code in TextWrangler, you would still
only have the
Hmmm, I do not think that VisualWorks with VM - 3 - times - faster - than -
java looks like a hystorical artifact ;-)
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:04 PM, Jens Alfke j...@mooseyard.com wrote:
On Jun 17, 2015, at 12:30 PM, Ariel Feinerman arielfap...@gmail.com
wrote:
Why just do not use some
On 17 Jun 2015, at 21:20, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote:
On Jun 17, 2015, at 2:04 PM, Jens Alfke j...@mooseyard.com wrote:
Guys, talking about Swift vs. Obj-C/C/C++ has a slight amount of use, but if
we start dragging everyone’s pet language into the fray (Algol? Burroughs
On Jun 17, 2015, at 12:30 PM, Ariel Feinerman arielfap...@gmail.com wrote:
Why just do not use some clone of Smalltalk for Mac OS X before inventing
new language?
Maybe because it wouldn’t achieve any of Apple’s stated goals, like high
performance and type-safety?
I used Smalltalk-80
Why just do not use some clone of Smalltalk for Mac OS X before inventing
new language?
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Quincey Morris
quinceymor...@rivergatesoftware.com wrote:
On Jun 17, 2015, at 00:56 , Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
To me this is actually a good thing that
On Jun 17, 2015, at 2:04 PM, Jens Alfke j...@mooseyard.com wrote:
Guys, talking about Swift vs. Obj-C/C/C++ has a slight amount of use, but if
we start dragging everyone’s pet language into the fray (Algol? Burroughs
B5000 assembly?)
Dylan, dammit ;-)
--
Scott Ribe
On Jun 17, 2015, at 00:56 , Graham Cox graham@bigpond.com wrote:
To me this is actually a good thing that I’ll be sorry to see go away in
Swift.
With a separate header that only contains the public stuff, I can see at a
glance what a class does without being overwhelmed by its
On 13 Jun 2015, at 1:31 pm, Quincey Morris
quinceymor...@rivergatesoftware.com wrote:
One of the biggest old-school reason is source duplication. You have to write
everything “twice”, once in @interface, once in @implementation. This has
been mitigated somewhat over the years, but Obj-C
You don’t really need multiple repositories - two project files living in one
workspace is okay.
On Jun 17, 2015, at 00:41, Quincey Morris
quinceymor...@rivergatesoftware.com wrote:
On Jun 16, 2015, at 01:36 , Kevin Meaney k...@yvs.eu.com wrote:
#if os(iOS)
Ah, thanks for reminding me
On Jun 16, 2015, at 01:36 , Kevin Meaney k...@yvs.eu.com wrote:
#if os(iOS)
Ah, thanks for reminding me about that. I keep forgetting that Swift has a form
of #if.
On Jun 16, 2015, at 03:22 , Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info wrote:
You actually can build the OS X and iOS versions of the
On Jun 16, 2015, at 10:06 , Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info wrote:
You don’t really need multiple repositories - two project files living in one
workspace is okay.
Oh, yes, you’re right. That was another thing I’d forgotten — that there was
still something left that [explicit] workspaces
On Tue, Jun 16, 2015, at 02:34 AM, Roland King wrote:
And now I know what Kyle looks like too!
You know what I look like with a bad haircut and not a lot of sleep. :P
BTW, the session is more precisely called What's New in Storyboards, in
case anyone is having trouble finding it.
--Kyle
I like the storyboard references, but where’d object references go?
On Jun 17, 2015, at 02:14, Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 16, 2015, at 02:34 AM, Roland King wrote:
And now I know what Kyle looks like too!
You know what I look like with a bad haircut and not a lot of
On Jun 16, 2015, at 11:14 , Kyle Sluder k...@ksluder.com wrote:
You know what I look like with a bad haircut
Your haircut is fine, but you were unlucky to be co-presenting with Tony, who
had the best haircut amongst any of the presenters I’ve seen both far. I’d sell
my soul for that haircut.
On 15 Jun 2015, at 05:56, Quincey Morris
quinceymor...@rivergatesoftware.com wrote:
On Jun 13, 2015, at 19:50 , Rick Mann rm...@latencyzero.com wrote:
Watch the talk on protocol-oriented programming
(https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=408
On Jun 16, 2015, at 00:34 , Roland King r...@rols.org wrote:
I think Protocol Extensions are the power feature to Swift this year
Yes, though I’ve been trying to convert a fair-sized app, and I ran into a
conceptual difficulty when a protocol has a Self constraint.
In essence, a Self
The other major problem I ran into — unrelated, but I’m mentioning it in case
someone wants to jump in and tell me the easy way — is that I’m trying to use
frameworks in order to break the project into modules so that I can use the
access controls (private and internal) to keep
And now I know what Kyle looks like too!
What’s the video?
What’s New In Interface Builder. (The answer to that question appears to be
some useful things to make your life easier but not so much you have to learn
it all over again this year - so that’s good)
There are old-school reasons and new-school reasons.
One of the biggest old-school reason is source duplication. You have to write
everything “twice”, once in @interface, once in @implementation. This has
been mitigated somewhat over the years, but Obj-C is literally twice the
number of
You actually can build the OS X and iOS versions of the same framework with the
same name, just keep the targets in separate projects and double-check when
linking.
On Jun 16, 2015, at 16:36, Kevin Meaney k...@yvs.eu.com wrote:
The other major problem I ran into — unrelated, but I’m
I may have misinterpreted the WWDC ’14 announcement of Swift. Somehow I got the
impression Swift was supposed to make Mac programming easier and more fun. What
I found was that with Cocoa, it makes easy stuff harder without making the hard
stuff the slightest bit easier. (In the case of string
Jens, I agree with what you say, but for the record, there was no sarcasm in my
message. I was speaking very literally about what I thought I heard in the WWDC
’14 intro versus what I encountered when I began using it.
--
Charles
On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 13:50, Jens Alfke wrote:
Hi,
The way I look at it, if you learn Objective-C, you’ll be able to pick up Swift
quite easily, but I don’t think the opposite is true. Also it depends if you
want to learn how the system hangs together at a low level, then Objective-C
makes it easier. I can’t imagine learning Swift without
On Jun 15, 2015, at 5:30 AM, Charles Jenkins cejw...@gmail.com wrote:
I may have misinterpreted the WWDC ’14 announcement of Swift. Somehow I got
the impression Swift was supposed to make Mac programming easier and more fun.
Can we pleease stay away from sarcasm in this thread.
Consider: If you were tasked to choose a language for a project based only on a
features list, you'd still have no assurances the language would be
appropriate for the project or that you would be able to accomplish the project
in a timely manner. Features do not equate to usability or
On Fri, 12 Jun 2015 23:51:42 -0700, Britt Durbrow said:
Swift is too immature to warrant doing anything serious with it yet…
I've stayed away from it for that reason basically. When Xcode x+1 can't even
compile code that builds in Xcode x, I'm not too interested (except for toy
projects).
The only feature in Swift that is useful for me so far is its ability to be
executed like a script using its REPL feature. And to use it I need Swift being
open source.
Things will go off topic beyond this point.
I always had an Objective-C Web framework (not a WebObjects revival, but a more
with Cocoa, I
still find nothing compelling enough to justify switching from an
Objective-C/C++ mix that has served me well.
The topic of this thread is “Language options: Objective-C, Swift, C or C++,”
so my intent was to show that despite all the hype, Swift doesn’t provide me
with enough
WWDC videos, weighing the
pundit’s arguments (mostly positive) — and its interoperability with Cocoa, I
still find nothing compelling enough to justify switching from an
Objective-C/C++ mix that has served me well.
The topic of this thread is “Language options: Objective-C, Swift, C or C++,”
so my
On Jun 14, 2015, at 04:56 , Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info wrote:
I actually don’t use C++ with Objective-C - in fact, I flat out hate it from
the half year being forced to use it in a CS course. Actually I even created
a rough Foundation clone and migrated almost all programming
On 13 Jun 2015, at 15:33, Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info wrote:
I don’t think Objective-C will ever be shut down since Swift also links to
libobjc runtime library, which means Swift is, technically, a dialect of
Objective-C with some syntactic sugar and compile-time checks allowing some
On Jun 13, 2015, at 19:50 , Rick Mann rm...@latencyzero.com wrote:
Watch the talk on protocol-oriented programming
(https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=408
https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=408).
You liked that, huh? I also recommend “Swift in Practice”
On 13 Jun 2015, at 16:42, Carl Hoefs newsli...@autonomy.caltech.edu wrote:
Bingo. Even after reading all the posts in this thread, I still don’t know
what problem Swift addresses, and no one seems to be able to answer that
question — not even Apple in its marketing hype.
I’m criminally
On 13 Jun 2015, at 8:09 pm, Michael David Crawford mdcrawf...@gmail.com
wrote:
The problem I've got is that those who pay for iOS and OS X
development have it in their heads that one must know either
Objective-C or Swift.
You do need one of those to code for Apple devices, even if all
On Jun 13, 2015, at 18:20 , Gary L. Wade garyw...@desisoftsystems.com wrote:
To answer your question, Swift adds […]
To get more specific, I just made a quick pass through the Swift documentation,
and came up with the following list of things where Swift adds useful
functionality and/or
On Jun 13, 2015, at 19:06 , Carl Hoefs newsli...@autonomy.caltech.edu wrote:
Thanks for the informative listing. So Swift offers refinements (not a
paradigm shift like object orientation over functional), many of which could
be added to ObjC, and many of which I wouldn’t want. I guess I
On Jun 13, 2015, at 5:14 PM, Michael David Crawford mdcrawf...@gmail.com
wrote:
To code for OS X or iOS in C++ I can use ZooLib which I prefer quite a
lot to any other framework I've ever used.
…
Available for Software Development in the Portland, Oregon Metropolitan Area.
And that's an
Pick out a few apps completely at random in the app store. Sort the
reviews by most-negative first. Last time I tried the vast majority
complained of crashes, user interfaces that did not work or were
sorely confusing or end-user data loss. I held back an old version of
Skype for years
To answer your question, Swift adds an expressiveness for nullability to APIs,
more type expressiveness on collection constituents, a better pattern for
if/else if/else if/.../else for object-equality testing that mirrors C
switch/case, less conversion needed between analogous C types and
On Jun 13, 2015, at 5:14 PM, Michael David Crawford mdcrawf...@gmail.com
wrote:
To code for OS X or iOS in C++ I can use ZooLib which I prefer quite a
lot to any other framework I've ever used.
…
Available for Software Development in the Portland, Oregon Metropolitan Area.
And that's an
On Jun 13, 2015, at 19:06 , Carl Hoefs newsli...@autonomy.caltech.edu wrote:
many of which could be added to ObjC,
In a lot of cases, they *can’t* be added to Obj-C, because Obj-C *is* C. That
is, if you restrict yourself to the C parts of the language, it’s
C99-conformant. That limits
Swift on Linux does not really need a separate standard Linux library as long
as the Linux version of Foundation is up to speed. Apple can choose to open
source their own implementation of Foundation (libobjc, libdispatch and
libBlocksRuntime are already open source) or contribute code to an
Thanks for the informative listing. So Swift offers refinements (not a paradigm
shift like object orientation over functional), many of which could be added to
ObjC, and many of which I wouldn’t want. I guess I was trying to find the main,
overwhelming purpose driving the adoption of Swift. I
I strongly support program correctness but regard C++ is the best at
facilitating that for me personally.
However I'm not a language zealot, and it took me years to figure out
how to get C++ right.
Pick out a few apps completely at random in the app store. Sort the
reviews by most-negative
Gary,
Doubtlessly my availability for software development is not due to my
preference for C++ nor ZooLib, but because I am so outspoken regarding
ethics, as well as so explicitly public about my mental illness of
Bipolar-Type Schizoaffective Disorder.
Consider for example that I was expelled
On Jun 13, 2015, at 3:27 PM, Paul Scott psc...@skycoast.us wrote:
Swift insinuates itself into the developer community with typical grandiose
marketing hype. But what practical value does it really offer? What failing,
besides a distaste of Objective-C by some — excluding myself —
On 14 Jun 2015, at 6:41 am, Michael David Crawford mdcrawf...@gmail.com
wrote:
that the company would not use Objective-c because he regarded
the syntax as ugly.
As stupid as complaining that German is ugly because it has too many umlauts
and eszetts. If you want to be able to fully
On Jun 13, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Carl Hoefs newsli...@autonomy.caltech.edu
wrote:
Bingo. Even after reading all the posts in this thread, I still don’t know
what problem Swift addresses, and no one seems to be able to answer that
question — not even Apple in its marketing hype.
Do you
The language complexity issue of C++ is one of the main reason it put me off so
much. And there is someone out there who posted a method of creating an iOS app
with no Objective-C code at all but quite a lot of runtime abusing. The same
method can be used on C++ but that requires some
I don't need either Swift nor Objective-C to code for OS X or iOS, I
need them to code for Cocoa or Cocoa Touch.
To code for OS X or iOS in C++ I can use ZooLib which I prefer quite a
lot to any other framework I've ever used.
Andy Green wrote in response to Apple's abandonment of Bedrock. If
On Jun 13, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Michael David Crawford mdcrawf...@gmail.com
wrote:
I'm not
completely clear as to why, but among the reasons I enjoy C, C++,
Objective-C and Assembly Code is that I can do tweaky little
optimizations like reordering data accesses so as to reduce cache
misses.
On 13 Jun 2015, at 11:46 am, Quincey Morris
quinceymor...@rivergatesoftware.com wrote:
I also wonder if Swift is going to meet the Graham Cox test: “Will Graham use
it?” I’m picking on Graham (without giving offense, I hope) because he’s a
crusty (though lovable) retrovert who’s still
My $0.02:
Swift is too immature to warrant doing anything serious with it yet… it just
hasn’t been around long enough to be exercised the way that Objective-C has.
This will, however, change with time. And yes, there is something of a
chicken-and-egg problem there: if nobody does anything
While I think Swift is just dandy, and see it as a step in the right
direction that Apple has chosen to Open Source it, I won't be learning
it until it is an ISO standard.
The reason is specifically because Apple created Objective-C 2.0
without consulting a standards body.
Objective-C has many
On 12 Jun 2015, at 22:48, Jens Alfke j...@mooseyard.com wrote:
Even the “if” statement is a method on class Boolean. Objective-C on the
other hand is an awkward combination of Smalltalk objects on top of C. And
the C crap really gets in the way. That’s where Swift really helps.
Or to
On 12 Jun 2015, at 17:51, Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info wrote:
News outlets says that Objective-C is quickly falling out of people’s
attention and developers are turning away from it to Swift and C++. So what
language will you use to code various parts of your new project? Objective-C?
It is expected of me to learn languages, find out what they’re good
for, and apply the right tool to the right job.
The software director at a highly successful, well-known company I
once consulted for - that I would prefer not to name - emailed us all
to say that the company would not use
Having perused the Swift documentation, viewed the pertinent Apple sessions,
and listened to the arguments (mostly pro) surrounding Swift since its initial
release, I’ve decided that the language provides (me) no additional benefits
over Objective-C and C++, and indeed, Swift adds additional
I don’t think Objective-C will ever be shut down since Swift also links to
libobjc runtime library, which means Swift is, technically, a dialect of
Objective-C with some syntactic sugar and compile-time checks allowing some
more advanced programming techniques. Think this like the relationship
On Jun 13, 2015, at 15:33 , Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info wrote:
Swift is, technically, a dialect of Objective-C with some syntactic sugar and
compile-time checks allowing some more advanced programming techniques.
It’s not a dialect of Obj-C because it can express constructs that are not
I don’t want to take issue with the opinions being expressed in this thread,
but I was struck by the argument you used in coming to your opinion:
On Jun 13, 2015, at 15:27 , Paul Scott psc...@skycoast.us wrote:
in practice there is little to justify the existence of Swift […]
When C++ and
On 13 Jun 2015, at 10:32, Carl Hoefs newsli...@autonomy.caltech.edu wrote:
Okay, so now there's Swift. Ugh. At first glance it looks like a throwback to
Basic (let x =), so it make me shudder. I suppose I'll hold my nose and learn
it, but the main question would be why? Is there some
On 13 Jun 2015, at 13:16, David Delmonte ddelmo...@me.com wrote:
Lurker here.. 1. My first language was PLAN. (I don’t know if you can even
find reference to it today - it was around circa 1966). I imagine that most
people on this list have projects in progress as the languages evolve and
On Jun 12, 2015, at 19:32 , Carl Hoefs newsli...@autonomy.caltech.edu wrote:
Okay, so now there's Swift. Ugh. At first glance it looks like a throwback to
Basic (let x =), so it make me shudder.
Trust me, that feeling goes away in a few days.
I suppose I'll hold my nose and learn it, but
On Jun 12, 2015, at 7:32 PM, Carl Hoefs newsli...@autonomy.caltech.edu
wrote:
Okay, so now there's Swift. Ugh. At first glance it looks like a throwback to
Basic (let x =), so it make me shudder.
If it’s any help, I can assure you that “let” comes from LISP and has been used
in tons of
Since Swift is new, it's been designed to handle the problems you get with
Objective-C's fully dynamic nature. Also, there's only so much you can modify
Objective-C before it's no longer a superset of C. You might have heard the
reason the caret character was used for blocks is due to it being
Maybe my ID card says I am 22 but I had an early start on programming than most
of my peers, so just treat me as a 40-year-old since I have some decades-old
die-hard habits accumulated already.
My first language ever learned is C actually, and then I spent almost 10 years
tackling Visual Basic
Swift looks like the future; I now use it for new development; and I am porting
old projects to it as time permits. I was leary at first, but once it stopped
crashing twenty times a day, and performance began approaching that of Obj-C, I
converted. I won’t look back unless Apple does an about
It seemed to me that my decision on start learning Swift this year dodged a
bullet here. Still my Swift experience will not start until I built a Swift
compiler on Linux.
For me the embedded land is still C and C only. In 8-bit land Microchip XC8 for
PIC as well as SDCC for Intel 8051 are C
News outlets says that Objective-C is quickly falling out of people’s attention
and developers are turning away from it to Swift and C++. So what language will
you use to code various parts of your new project? Objective-C? Swift 2? C++?
Or the good old plain C?
For me, it is still Objective-C
I love objective-c and swift. I'll concentrate on swift moving forward but I
still have large code bases in obj-c.
Sent from Outlook
_
From: Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 8:52 PM
Subject: Language options: Objective-C, Swift, C or C
. I'll concentrate on swift moving forward but I
still have large code bases in obj-c.
Sent from Outlook
_
From: Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 8:52 PM
Subject: Language options: Objective-C, Swift, C or C++?
To: Cocoa-Dev List
On Jun 12, 2015, at 18:31 , Roland King r...@rols.org wrote:
I would start learning Swift. […] It’s where the puck is going at least for
Apple OS programming
I strongly agree with you here. At the risk of sounding like I’m suffering from
WWDC intoxication, my reaction to what I’ve seen in
On 13 Jun 2015, at 08:51, Maxthon Chan m...@maxchan.info wrote:
News outlets says that Objective-C is quickly falling out of people’s
attention and developers are turning away from it to Swift and C++. So what
language will you use to code various parts of your new project? Objective-C?
2-cent note from an uninformed lurker…
I busted my rear for couple of years learning and getting to think in Obj C,
and I love the object oriented feel it has, especially compared with the likes
of C++ and Java, where object orientation feels like a tacked-on afterthought.
Okay, so now
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