On 2/26/07, Segedunum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> bulk of the software written for Windows is still VC++/VB/COM, and there is a
> huge amount of binary stuff that is not even going to be recompiled, let
> alone have its code ported. That's where the effort needs to go, and where it
> should have a
On Thursday 22 February 2007 00:40, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
> Our problem is that today Microsoft still makes the rules and we follow. We
> copy (also MacOs) where we can: Samba, OpenOffice.org, File Managers, Mono,
> Deskbar Applet,... and this is ok - but as long as we just follow we will
> always j
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 14:55 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote:
> Really, we are quite proud of the lockdown settings, and we would like
> lots of people to know about them. I'm sure that the "sabayon" User
> Profile Editor people would welcome suggestions about how to make this
> feature more obvious. If
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 01:40:05AM +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
> I want free desktops to succeed so they can make the rules. I think there is
> a chance - and this should integrate these moral views that will also
> convince some users - but really not all. I think that we could already have
> the
On February 22, 2007, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
> I think the goal of Jokosher is to enable more people to do audio editing
> in the future. And thats similar to what Apple tries to do on other areas
> like photo editing (iPhoto).
and GarageBand for audio editing ... =) jokosher may be cool (i haven't
On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 08:10 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
[snip]
> was it lack of an obvious way
> > to do so (during installation or elsewhere) that prevented you from
> > doing so, or some other reason?
>
> I had (and still have) _no_ idea.
>
> I think Gnome people have this very strange dichoto
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 20:24 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
[snip]
> Would it be a bad idea to have a mode where you can't even do silly
> things
> like that by mistake?
[snip]
This is generally referred to as lockdown mode. The User Profile Editor
makes it easy to set such options. That might be r
On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 14:14 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
[snip]
> In other words, in the very same discussion about the one feature _I_
> care
> about, there's another gnome developer who argues that gnome should
> remove
> ANOTHER configuration entry that somebody else is bound to care about.
[s
On 2/22/07, Paul Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jokosher is an interesting choice. What precisely do you think counts as
"leading by example" there?
Because Jokosher chose to go another way - make something differently. That
does not mean that other audio application did make a bad choice
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 01:40 +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
> example. Again I would count Inkscape and Jokosher (maybe also
> Firefox?). I really think we need more of this attitude to really make
> a difference.
Jokosher is an interesting choice. What precisely do you think counts as
"leading by e
On 2/21/07, Christopher Blizzard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Kathy Sierra does a good job of describing some of the problems around
this:
...
If we're ever going to grow beyond our small community, I think that
what GNOME has done is important.
I think it is important to make some distinctio
On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 08:10 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Calum Benson wrote:
> >
> > GNOME has plenty of settings you can lock down to stop people getting
> > into a mess; if you maintain their machines, did you ever consider doing
> > any of this for their accounts? If
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Calum Benson wrote:
>
> GNOME has plenty of settings you can lock down to stop people getting
> into a mess; if you maintain their machines, did you ever consider doing
> any of this for their accounts? If not, was it lack of an obvious way
> to do so (during installation o
On Wednesday 21 February 2007 13:31, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
[...]
> So our discussions are mostly of the base. There are some aspects of
> usability and coolness that users like. And some things they can not
> understand. I was a bit surprised to find out that in KDE you actually have
> to copy fil
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 20:24 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Would it be a bad idea to have a mode where you can't even do silly things
> like that by mistake? Keep the core menu entry fixed, for example? No
> doubt. When it comes to making a mess of it, my daughter is better at
> _creating_ the
On 2/21/07, Linus Torvalds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Would it be a bad idea to have a mode where you can't even do silly things
like that by mistake? Keep the core menu entry fixed, for example? No
doubt. When it comes to making a mess of it, my daughter is better at
_creating_ the mess than s
On February 20, 2007, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
> > The problem I see is that users are just not acting like we expect.
>
> I definitely agree.
x2 ...
> And I think you hit one of the basic issues in:
> > A desktop lies the base ground for every possible a
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
>
> The problem I see is that users are just not acting like we expect.
I definitely agree.
And I think you hit one of the basic issues in:
> A desktop lies the base ground for every possible activity of a user -
> so it can not act like an applicati
On 2/21/07, Christian F.K. Schaller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>
The problem is and have never been that the GNOME community thinks people
shouldn't be allowed to tweak their UI, instead the idea was that we
keep the 'core' slim and clean and then people who want more control can
install extra t
On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 14:14 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> [ away for the long weekend, am back now ]
>
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007, Christian F.K. Schaller wrote:
> >
> > So I added your patches to bugzilla this weekend, in an attempt to be
> > constructive on my own part also. So far two of them are m
Hi Linus,
Thanks for the patches. I have been really busy, so I apologize for
not responding sooner to the public or private emails. In general, I
think it makes sense to include your capability into metacity. The
clean-ups are always appreciated too. Unfortunately, I still don't
have a lot of
[ away for the long weekend, am back now ]
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007, Christian F.K. Schaller wrote:
>
> So I added your patches to bugzilla this weekend, in an attempt to be
> constructive on my own part also. So far two of them are merged and
> based on the discussion I see that a 3rd one will probab
Hi Linus,
So I added your patches to bugzilla this weekend, in an attempt to be
constructive on my own part also. So far two of them are merged and
based on the discussion I see that a 3rd one will probably go in today.
If you are interested the tracker bug is here:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, Hubert Figuiere wrote:
>
> So Linus, where can we find the patch so that we can all share the
> enthusiasm?
>
> I couldn't find it in either metacity mailing lists or bugzilla.
I sent them to the gnomecc list (the changes to let control center enable
it were bigger than t
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>> Maybe you should actually try using GNOME for a Month or so instead of
>> keep repeating your often wrong assumptions?
>
> You know what? Last night, I put my money where my mouth is.
>
> I did something better than any Gnome user has apparently ever done: I
> actual
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Christian F.K. Schaller wrote:
>
> Maybe you should actually try using GNOME for a Month or so instead of
> keep repeating your often wrong assumptions?
You know what? Last night, I put my money where my mouth is.
I did something better than any Gnome user has apparently
> For example, bringing back up the subject of the print dialogue (keep it
> relevant), there is an assumption made that an 'ordinary' user would not
> want any kind of functionality within their print dialogue apart from
> printing it out basically.
As pointed out *last year*, this was not *eve
On Thursday 15 February 2007 10:49, Christian F.K. Schaller wrote:
> Maybe you should actually try using GNOME for a Month or so instead of
> keep repeating your often wrong assumptions?
Well, I've never seen any real evidence that what he's pointed out is actually
wrong. There's just an awful lo
On Mon, Feb 12, 2007 at 07:54:29AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> "ONLY being easy to use" is bad, because it means that once the initial
> learning curve is over, maybe you know the program, but you can't actually
> do what you WANT to do. And that's *bad*. That's *really* bad. It's
> actually
Hi Linus,
Maybe you should actually try using GNOME for a Month or so instead of
keep repeating your often wrong assumptions?
GNOME offers a lot of customization options, but some of them requires
you for instance to get extra applications to easily get to. An often
used such add-on for power us
> Gnome people seem to think that once you "got into it", you never want to
> do anything more. Not true.
Like we said before, that's simply not the case. Please, let's not continue
this discussion. It was unfortunate enough the first time.
- Jeff
--
Open CeBIT 2007: Sydney, Australia
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, Marcos Pérez López wrote:
>
> Yo también soy idiota. No se configurar la mayor parte de las opciones
> del escritorio, y si he podido empezar a usar linux es porque Gnome me
> lo facilitó.
There is a _huge_ difference between "being easy to use" and "_only_ being
easy to u
On 2/12/07, Marcos Pérez López <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> ¿Quién es el NAZI?
[...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
=> End of discussion
Salu2
___
Desktop_architects mailing list
Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org
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Linus escribió:
> This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
> Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
> use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long
> since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what
On 12/31/05, Aaron J. Seigo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> note that this doesn't replace X/Qt/Gtk+/whatever APIs, but rather wraps them
> in a common IPC layer for those who can't, don't want to or simply won't
> write directly to those APIs but who also wish for their app to integrate
> nicely with
On Saturday 31 December 2005 10:51, Dan Kegel wrote:
> My impression is that he wants to replace all of the
> current set of X / gnome / qt APIs with a new one based
> on web services.
i'm not involved with RUDI myself, but i have listened to what has been said
by those who are and the goal and p
On 12/31/05, Michael Sweet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> The goal, I thought, was for RUDI to provide access to a common set of
> >> dialogs (file and print have been suggested so far) and not to suddenly
> >> become a system-level library providing all common services and UIs.
> >
> > Actually t
Martin Konold wrote:
Am Montag, 19. Dezember 2005 14:00 schrieb Michael Sweet:
Hi Michael,
The goal, I thought, was for RUDI to provide access to a common set of
dialogs (file and print have been suggested so far) and not to suddenly
become a system-level library providing all common services
Am Montag, 19. Dezember 2005 14:00 schrieb Michael Sweet:
Hi Michael,
> The goal, I thought, was for RUDI to provide access to a common set of
> dialogs (file and print have been suggested so far) and not to suddenly
> become a system-level library providing all common services and UIs.
Actually
y@gnome.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> Alex Graveley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Desktop Architects
> Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: [Desktop_architects] Printing dialog and
> GNOME (Summit mockups)
>
> Joachim Noreiko wrote:
> > --- Michael Sweet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]&g
Am Dienstag, 20. Dezember 2005 20:47 schrieb Michael Sweet:
Hi Michael,
> That said, it is unlikely that the generic print dialog proposed here
> will be used by more complex printing applications that provide custom
> options and dynamic previews (i.e. drag the object you are printing
> in the p
Am Dienstag, 20. Dezember 2005 20:33 schrieb Mike Shaver:
Hi Mike,
> On 20-Dec-05, at 1:26 PM, Martin Konold wrote:
> > E.g. KDE offers a file open dialog with preview capabilities. This
> > capability
> > is build into the dialog without a call back to the application
> > calling the
> > dialog.
On 20-Dec-05, at 2:47 PM, Michael Sweet wrote:
This particular discussion is for the file dialog, not the print
dialog.
Ahem, yes. *blush* I'd blame the Subject line, but that would be petty.
That said, it is unlikely that the generic print dialog proposed here
will be used by more complex p
Mike Shaver wrote:
On 20-Dec-05, at 1:26 PM, Martin Konold wrote:
E.g. KDE offers a file open dialog with preview capabilities. This
capability
is build into the dialog without a call back to the application
calling the
dialog.
But when the user changes the paper size, or changes from portr
On 20-Dec-05, at 1:26 PM, Martin Konold wrote:
E.g. KDE offers a file open dialog with preview capabilities. This
capability
is build into the dialog without a call back to the application
calling the
dialog.
But when the user changes the paper size, or changes from portrait to
landscape
Am Montag, 19. Dezember 2005 14:08 schrieben Sie:
Hi,
> > The reason for this is that the print dialog needs bidirectional
> > communication with the application for everything except the most trivial
> > tasks. E.g. if
>
> But what if you want a preview in the file dialog? Doesn't that
> requir
Am Freitag, 16. Dezember 2005 19:35 schrieben Sie:
Hi Norm,
> >I disagree because this ties the 3rd party application to a specific
> > desktop. For the success of the Linux Desktop it is imho mandatory that
> > 3rd party applications integrate well in any desktop which follows the
> > same commo
Am Freitag, 16. Dezember 2005 14:14 schrieb Michael Sweet:
Hi Michael,
> > It is a bad design decision for an application to directly link to the
> > cups client library (ABI concerns,...) but it is much better to use a
> > protocol based interface to use the full potential of CUPS.
>
> I strongl
Till Kamppeter wrote:
How will generic options of the PPD file be integrated into the dialog?
All on one pane (not so good)? One pane per group? How will the
summaries look like? For example how will the dialog look like with a
Gutenprint PPD for a high-end photo printer from Epson?
The idea is
Michael Sweet wrote:
Does the KDE HIG specify button order?
The KDE and FLTK HIGs put the cancel button on the right while Apple's
HUG puts it on the left. Microsoft's guidelines are all over the
place - they show examples with the buttons along the right side of
the dialog as well as on the
How will generic options of the PPD file be integrated into the dialog?
All on one pane (not so good)? One pane per group? How will the
summaries look like? For example how will the dialog look like with a
Gutenprint PPD for a high-end photo printer from Epson?
Till
Michael Sweet wrote:
> Joa
Tomasz Janowitz wrote:
Michael Sweet wrote:
OK, I've finally had a chance to put a demo together that shows the
expandable UI functionality with the print dialog. The demo is not
yet fully-functional (i.e. no actual printing, the options are made-
up), but it does demonstrate the basic idea.
Y
Joachim Noreiko wrote:
--- Michael Sweet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
- line up the start of the summaries of collapsed
boxes ('Letter', 'All pages' etc)
I'm not sure how that would look - the arrow might
look out of
place or misaligned.
You have:
Heading: Summary
Longer heading: Summary
Wha
Sorry, appears I didn't include this list on my posting...
Original Message
Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: [Desktop_architects] Printing dialog and
GNOME (Summit mockups)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:51:06 -0500
From: Michael Sweet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Ea
Martin Konold wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 15. Dezember 2005 07:13 schrieb Norm Jacobs:
Hi Norm,
In general, the sooner we get applications
using the print dialogs available in the toolkits on the platform (in
this case, the new GTK print dialog), the better.
I disagree because this ties t
Martin Konold wrote:
...
It is a bad design decision for an application to directly link to the cups
client library (ABI concerns,...) but it is much better to use a protocol
based interface to use the full potential of CUPS.
I strongly disagree with this, mainly because the CUPS API (and
as
This discussion belongs on a list related to GNOME specific discussion.
This list is for members of the development communities to come together
and discuss how to solve issues. Please do not send any more mail about
GNOME, KDE, or any other specific UI or happiness issues, to this list.
Thank you
Am Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2005 17:39 schrieb Till Kamppeter:
> > (The KDE people are much less vitriolic about how Firefox is wearing
> > white after Labour Day on their desktop, for whatever reason, and
> > nobody has bothered to even wire up the file dialog, except for one
> > frustrated hacker
Am Freitag, 16. Dezember 2005 12:13 schrieben Sie:
Hi,
> How long will it take until RUDI is available?
Basically it is a matter of comming to common grounds with the GNOME desktop
architects.
Limiting RUDI to just one desktop would not help the Linux Desktop as a whole.
The later is a very
Martin Konold wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2005 19:56 schrieb Till Kamppeter:
>
> Hi Till,
>
>
>>The added one can depend on CUPS and new GTK, if these
>>libraries are not present (for example when building on old Red Hat) the
>>old dialog is used, on current distros the new one (could be
Am Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2005 19:56 schrieb Till Kamppeter:
Hi Till,
> The added one can depend on CUPS and new GTK, if these
> libraries are not present (for example when building on old Red Hat) the
> old dialog is used, on current distros the new one (could be
> automatically built appropriat
Am Donnerstag, 15. Dezember 2005 07:13 schrieb Norm Jacobs:
Hi Norm,
> In general, the sooner we get applications
> using the print dialogs available in the toolkits on the platform (in
> this case, the new GTK print dialog), the better.
I disagree because this ties the 3rd party application to
Am Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2005 18:00 schrieb Mike Shaver:
Hi,
> Consider this an open invitation for someone to come forward with a
> proposal, plan, and patch for the Unix printing experience on Firefox.
I think with the project Portland/RUDI we will be able to offer you a path
which does no
Having followed the discussion about usability and/or freedom of
choice and myself being rather one of those idiot users, who
thus often likes to make a "minority's choice", I wonder if there
wouldn't be a way to make *everybody* (independent of their needs)
happy.
If one looks at vlc (in GTK-inte
On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 16:36 +0100, Till Kamppeter wrote:
> Murray Cumming wrote:
> > The gnome-print list might be a better place to discuss this:
> > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-print-list/
> >
>
> Thanks for the link, I will have a look there.
>
> > Also, there seems to be consensus th
Till Kamppeter wrote:
Mike Shaver wrote:
The requirements are probably something like "work everywhere that Firefox works, and don't suck".
We have a user-experience lead whom I love too much to copy on this thread, but
his time is currently best spent on things other than designing our
Hey,
On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 17:00 +, Mike Shaver wrote:
> Consider this an open invitation for someone to come forward with a
> proposal, plan, and patch for the Unix printing experience on Firefox.
> It's been an under-owned area, though I think at various times Marco
> Pesetti, Chrises Lahey
On Tuesday 13 December 2005 12:12, Timothy D. Witham wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 03:40 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Then you are missing the point. One thing about enterprises is that
> > > they really want to be able to configure systems the way that they want
> > > to use them.
> >
Till Kamppeter wrote:
Michael Sweet wrote:
Tomasz Janowitz wrote:
Hi.
-> Michael Sweet - very good points!
I would add:
1) The 'current page' option should be there in a print dialog (next
to 'all' ?)
Agreed.
2) The same with print to file.
Actually, I like what KDE does - "Print to
Mike Shaver wrote:
> The requirements are probably something like "work everywhere that Firefox
> works, and don't suck".
>
> We have a user-experience lead whom I love too much to copy on this thread,
> but his time is currently best spent on things other than designing our Unix
> printing d
Linus Torvalds wrote:
The fact is, developers don't know what their users are going to need.
That's a very fundamental issue in any software engineering. The other,
almost as fundamental issue, is that asking users is usually not very
productive either, because (a) different users will give yo
Michael Sweet wrote:
> Tomasz Janowitz wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> -> Michael Sweet - very good points!
>>
>> I would add:
>
>
>> 1) The 'current page' option should be there in a print dialog (next
>> to 'all' ?)
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>> 2) The same with print to file.
>
>
> Actually, I like what KDE
On Wednesday 14 December 2005 17:29, Martin Konold wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2005 12:22 schrieb Tomasz Janowitz:
>
> Hi,
>
> > unfortunately I find both have become a bit "top heavy" and seem
> > sluggish on older equipment often found in schools and non-for-profit
> > organizations.
>
> I
ll Kamppeter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:39:50
To:Mike Shaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:usability@gnome.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org
Subject: Re: [Desktop_architects] Printing dialog and GNOME
Mike Shaver wrote:
>
Mike Shaver wrote:
> On 12-Dec-05, at 8:33 PM, Till Kamppeter wrote:
>
>> And we all were of the opinion that
>> the GNOME printing dialog (and also the printing dialogs of Firefox and
>> Thunderbird) needs improvement.
>
>
> Before Firefox 1.0, there was much kerfuffle over this, and out of t
Kurt Pfeifle wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 December 2005 01:33, Till Kamppeter wrote:
>
>
>>Frederic told that the options from the PPD file are intentionally mot
>>listed in the printing dialog, the usability team of GNOME was against
>>listing these options. They clutter the dialog and can be more con
Curtis Hovey wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 10:02 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote:
>
>
>>>Today I talked with Frederic Crozat, GNOME packager/maintainer and
>>>desktop developer here at Mandriva, and David Barth, vice president for
>>>engineering, about the development of the printing dialogs in GNOM
Am Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2005 12:22 schrieb Tomasz Janowitz:
Hi,
> unfortunately I find both have become a bit "top heavy" and seem
> sluggish on older equipment often found in schools and non-for-profit
> organizations.
I am not willing to accept this often repeated point without actual number
Murray Cumming wrote:
> I don't remember any such discussion, though I could be wrong. I think
> it's highly unlikely. It's more likely that the GNOME print system was
> difficult to do and started out with something simple. And it hasn't had
> much attention lately while we've waited for other par
Havoc Pennington wrote:
> I'm just suggesting that if you wanted to talk to people about this
> it'd be good to cook up some details. What kinds of things can
> printers do? What kinds of users use those things or buy those
> printers? How do those things fit in to the person's work or fun?
> Desig
Daniel F Moisset wrote:
On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 11:32 -0800, Alex Graveley wrote:
Hi,
Carl Worth wrote:
> PS. These side threads are entertaining, but I do hope we also get
> back to Till's original list and we can all work together on designing
> a good print dialog.
To this effect, here are
On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 11:32 -0800, Alex Graveley wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Carl Worth wrote:
> > PS. These side threads are entertaining, but I do hope we also get
> > back to Till's original list and we can all work together on designing
> > a good print dialog.
>
> To this effect, here are the mockup
Am Dienstag, 13. Dezember 2005 17:40 schrieb Jeff Waugh:
Hi Jeff,
> This is incorrect. As mentioned at the DTL meeting, a Siemens study from a
> few years back demonstrated that duplicated interfaces result in decreased
> user acceptance and increased training costs; while your software may look
Tomasz Janowitz wrote:
Subject:
Re: [Usability] Re: [Desktop_architects] Printing dialog and GNOME
(Summit mockups)
From:
"Piotr R. Sidorowicz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:15:46
--- Begin Message ---
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hello,
All are excellent points. What I would like to see is a sensible paper
size selection, based on timezone settings perhaps. It is a safe bet
that for US and Canada the default setting should be Letter, for Europe
likely A4,
Hi,
Yay, discussion is looking more useful ;-)
Here's an applicable article to much of what you're saying:
http://www.gnomejournal.org/article/5/experimental-culture
That article tries to imagine a path that's neither "a fun project by
and for developers, but sucky for everyone else" nor "a ki
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