it.
--
From: Cortland Richmond cortland.richm...@alcatel.com
To: Andrew Carson acar...@uk.xyratex.com
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
Date: Thu, Jan 3, 2002, 12:22 PM
As engineers, we should consider the safety
implications of what we design, test or otherwise
, 2002 8:12 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8
4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6ABC4FD5@flbocexu05) about 'EMC-related safety issues',
on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
Ken, let me address the specific case you
success at the expense of others, and the degree of his success is the
degree of destruction visited on society.
--
From: cherryclo...@aol.com
To: m...@california.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thu, Jan 3
To: George_Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark.LEXMARK@sweeper.lex.lexmark.com
cc: emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com (bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark)
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
Hi George:
The key word in EMC is compatibility. This implies that electrical and
electronic equipment are (ideally
in
the home would be useless. Reason has to prevail.
Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International
-Original Message-
From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:20 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
I understand
Hi George:
The key word in EMC is compatibility. This implies that electrical and
electronic
equipment are (ideally) designed so that each can operate normally in the
presence
of another. This requires limiting both the emissions and sensitivity of
such
devices.
EMC?
Of John Woodgate
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:17 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in e5.11a0fabe.296
5d...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
Over the course
: EMC-related safety issues
*
A routine flight over Dallas-Fort Worth was disrupted when one of the
compasses suddenly shifted 10 degrees to the right. The pilot asked if any
passenger was operating an electronic device, and finding that a laptop
computer had just been turned
The Forrestal incident occurred during the Vietnam conflict, July 1967. It
was pretty much as you describe except I would not say EMI was not
controlled. All DOD services had EMI requirements at his time. In fact,
1967 was the year that MIL-STD-461 was adopted as a Tri-Service requirement
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets
.com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40ac...@windlord.wwp.com
) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
While I take your point - I'll challenge with the equally valid
argument
that says
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8
4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6ABC4FD5@flbocexu05) about 'EMC-related safety issues',
on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
more severe immunity requirements apply. Those requirements are either
specified in EN 50130-4
According to the BSI web
for position
information. That is what happened to that storied DC-10.
--
From: Cortland Richmond cortland.richm...@alcatel.com
To: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
Cc: Mike Hopkins mhopk...@thermokeytek.com, cherryclo...@aol.com,
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety
*
A routine flight over Dallas-Fort Worth was disrupted when one of the
compasses suddenly shifted 10 degrees to the right. The pilot asked
if any passenger was operating an electronic device, and finding that
a laptop computer had just been turned on requested that it be turned
As engineers, we should consider the safety
implications of what we design, test or otherwise
work on. EMI is part of that. What is considered a
safety risk depends a great deal on corporate
policy, the legal, political and popular climate in
one's state of residence, and the kind of equipment
, as well.
Ghery Pettit
-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:cortland.richm...@alcatel.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:41 AM
To: Ken Javor
Cc: Mike Hopkins; cherryclo...@aol.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
I'm old enough, Ken
PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets
.com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40ac...@windlord.wwp.com
) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
Cameras don't cause
I'm old enough, Ken, to remember ADF approaches! But
laptop switchers often operate inband to frequencies
used by aviation non-directional beacons. This makes
them more of a threat than the harmonics from
lower-frequency ones. It is also, of course,
possible for the laptop's other emissions to
Let's be real careful here and give credit where credit is due.
The Pinto incident was in many ways not a safety issue with
regard to safety testing and the safety engineers at Ford.
The Ford Pinto fiasco was clearly a management issue.
Tests were done to the 20 mph rear impact standard early
-Original Message-
From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:34 AM
To: richwo...@tycoint.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
Richard,
A monitoring system is a convenience
...@uk.xyratex.com,
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thu, Jan 3, 2002, 8:25 AM
Ken,
I don't think anyone could disagree with your sentiments. The problem is
attributing the level of liability between user and manufacturer.
Car
-Original Message-
From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:26 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
Ken, let me address the specific case you mentioned - the RF camera used for
baby surveillance
...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02,2002 2:22 PM
To: cherryclo...@aol.com;emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safetyissues
To say that Industrystandards don't go far enough, that it is
the responsibility of the Producerto be able to determine all possible
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in e5.11a0fabe.296
5d...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
Over the course of this correspondence (and in earlier postings to
emc-pstc)
you have cast doubt on the IEE's guide to EMC and Functional Safety
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8
4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6ABC4FD5@flbocexu05) about 'EMC-related safety issues',
on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
Ken, let me address the specific case you mentioned - the RF camera used
for
baby surveillance. In that particular
is not considered a tool but a crutch from the get-go. This is
an anti-business environment that even the old behind the Iron Curtain
Communists could not have imagined.
--
From: richwo...@tycoint.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
List-Post: emc-pstc
---BeginMessage---
Dear John
Maybe I should have been more explicit.
Over the course of this correspondence (and in earlier postings to emc-pstc)
you have cast doubt on the IEE's guide to EMC and Functional Safety without
being in any way specific.
Now you are saying that you haven't read it
---BeginMessage---
All I know about the issue of the laptop interfering with the compass is from
the IEE's Guide to EMC and Functional Safety, copied below:
*
A routine flight over Dallas-Fort Worth was disrupted when one of the
compasses suddenly shifted 10 degrees to the right. The
the manufacturer at risk.
--
From: cherryclo...@aol.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2002, 9:49 AM
Once again, John, you seem to be trying to give a negative impression
about the IEE's guide on EMC and Functional Safety
/A; A
HREF=mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org;emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org/A
A HREF=mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org;
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org/A
Date: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
Did the camera have proximal cause to the event
Engineering Services Manager
Dolby Laboratories, Inc. (UK)
-Original Message-
From: acar...@uk.xyratex.com [mailto:acar...@uk.xyratex.com]
Sent: 03 January 2002 12:54
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
I get the idea
I read in !emc-pstc that Andrew Carson acar...@uk.xyratex.com wrote
(in 3c345485.b0f29...@uk.xyratex.com) about 'EMC-related safety
issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
I get the idea that we a missing the whole point of this
discussion.
I think that you are missing the point. The major
-Original Message-
From: Mike Hopkins [mailto:mhopk...@thermokeytek.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 5:58 PM
To: 'Cortland Richmond'; cherryclo...@aol.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
As already stated, the incident of the DC-10 has for years
: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:22 PM
To: cherryclo...@aol.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
I have read a part of the IEE guide mentioned below. What I have read on a
paragraph by paragraph basis is fine
insensitive to electric fields altogether. Further,
no one would use ADF to line up an approach on a runway.
--
From: Cortland Richmond cortland.richm...@alcatel.com
To: Mike Hopkins mhopk...@thermokeytek.com
Cc: cherryclo...@aol.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related
To: Mike Hopkins mhopk...@thermokeytek.com
Cc: cherryclo...@aol.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2002, 5:26 PM
If they meant radio compass, that is a different can of monkeys. The
radio compass
I read in !emc-pstc that Mike Hopkins mhopk...@thermokeytek.com wrote
(in 49CD487E8BA9D31181190060081C6B8F3BEC1D@COMSERVER) about 'EMC-
related safety issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
As already stated, the incident of the DC-10 has for years been used as an
example of personal electronics
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets
.com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40ac...@windlord.wwp.com
) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
Cameras don't cause disease likes SIDS.
Please post your proof! That is the attitude of
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in 125.99b6ace.296
48...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
I understand that under European Product Liability law (and I suspect in
US
product liability law too) evidence of a historical lack of safety
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
Did the camera have proximal cause to the event that befell the
child, well not unless it fell of of the ceiling or the tripod fell over and
hit the infant, or the camera overheated and started a fire. Other than that
the Lawyers need to dig
It's no different this side of the Pond.
--
From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2002, 3:19 PM
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote
(in 20020102192217
If they meant "radio compass," that is a different can of monkeys.
The radio compass was traditionally the indicator for the ADF set , pointing
to the ground station, and was usually mounted so as to revolve in front
of a scale which rotated with the aircraft's' magnetic heading. A noisy
Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:cortland.richm...@alcatel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:56 PM
To: cherryclo...@aol.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
It is perhaps less than useful to depend on a third or fourth party report
of an incident
Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, cherryclo...@aol.com,
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2002, 4:08 PM
Did the camera have proximal cause to the event that befell the child,
well not unless it fell
...@aol.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
I have read a part of the IEE guide mentioned below. What I have read on a
paragraph by paragraph basis is fine, but I find the overall philosophy deeply
troubling. The tone of the document is that the manufacturer
It appears that a lot depends on what we mean by the
word safety. If this means the elimination of
as-yet-unknown risks, why, nothing can be shown to
be safe. If we mean the prevention of hazards that
are reasonably predictable, we do that already. Or
should! The existence of standards which
I read in !emc-pstc that Cortland Richmond cortland.richm...@alcatel.co
m wrote (in 3c3365ca.d3acb...@alcatel.com) about 'EMC-related safety
issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
The citation for the referenced incident was Compliance
Engineering (CE magazine), the European edition, for
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote
(in 20020102192217.PBJZ20715.femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.11.150.27]
) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
What I have read on a paragraph by paragraph basis is fine, but I
find the overall
Personally, I could list a ton of stuff that would instill
fear and loathing amongst the fainest of EMC hearts.
Sitting in a jet airliner at the end of the runway readying
for take-off and watching the cabin lights dim slightly in
sync with the sweep of the main radar dish just a couple
of
than radio receivers.
--
From: cherryclo...@aol.com
To: ken.ja...@emccompliance.com,
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related
safety issues
Date: Mon, Dec 31, 2001,
12:45 PM
Dear
Ken
Any electromagnetic emissions,
whether conducted or radiated, including spurious emissions (howeve
-0509
Email: edmund.a.wood...@lmco.com
--
From: cherryclo...@aol.com[SMTP:cherryclo...@aol.com]
Reply To: cherryclo...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:24 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: re: EMC-related safety issues
I
. Is
the manufacturer of that video system responsible for any ill that then
befalls my friend's twins? I think not. But this safety guide says yes,
and places the manufacturer at risk.
--
From: cherryclo...@aol.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
List-Post: emc
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in
63.44c9e61.29648...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on
Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
Once again, John, you seem to be trying to give a negative impression
about
the IEE's guide on EMC and Functional Safety (which you now admit you
...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2002, 8:45 AM
I won't get into whether you were intending to impugn my truthfulness,
and shall assume you just used an unfortunate turn of phrase.
I had already said I was not aware of the previous
Once again, John, you seem to be trying to give a negative impression about
the IEE's guide on EMC and Functional Safety (which you now admit you haven't
read) instead of simply saying what it is that you think is wrong with it.
Of course I am passionate about the IEE guide - my colleagues and
: cherryclo...@aol.com
To: ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2002, 8:45 AM
I won't get into whether you were intending to impugn my truthfulness, and
shall assume you just used
of stimulating electronics operating at
higher levels than radio receivers.
--
From: cherryclo...@aol.com
To: ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
Date: Mon, Dec 31, 2001, 12:45 PM
Dear Ken
Any electromagnetic emissions
-10, the pilot seized control from the auto-pilot and
redirected the aircraft towards its former heading. Since this was on final
approach, it was a fairly narrow escape.
--
From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote
(in 20011231204639.HFSF617.femail38.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.11.150.27])
about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Mon, 31 Dec 2001:
In a court of law one must swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth.
...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
If the length of discussion is proportional to the degree of controversy
surrounding a subject, then the entire theory of electromagnetism is rife
with controversy...
The length of discussion is proportional to the complexity of the subject
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote
(in 20020101193617.STGC6581.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.11.150.27])
about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Tue, 1 Jan 2002:
The
standard navigational aids: ILS, TACAN and VOR all have simple modulation
schemes. ILS receivers
dBm and marker beacon -50 dBm.
--
--
From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
Date: Tue, Jan 1, 2002, 2:17 AM
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote
(in 20020101060002.GSJY27550.femail4
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote
(in 20020101060002.GSJY27550.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.11.150.27]
) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Mon, 31 Dec 2001:
KJJ response to JW: The aircraft receivers in question are just that, radio
receivers, and as such
Re this exchange:
KJJ response to Keith Armstrong: In a court of law one must swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
JW: Indeed, but it is, of course, fatuous. One cannot tell if one even KNOWS
the whole truth about anything, let alone whether one will be allowed
levels than radio receivers.
--
From: cherryclo...@aol.com
To: ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Mon, Dec 31, 2001, 12:45 PM
Dear Ken
Any electromagnetic emissions, whether conducted
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in 17c.18c06c2.296
20...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Mon, 31 Dec 2001:
Quite a number of EMC and Safety experts took part in creating the IEE's
Guide on EMC and Functional Safety, including a lawyer who specialises
Dear John
Quite a number of EMC and Safety experts took part in creating the IEE's
Guide on EMC and Functional Safety, including a lawyer who specialises in
high-tech issues. You will find their names listed at the end of the 'core'
of the guide (downloadable from
All of this message is very interesting and I have no problem with it at
all. That doesn't change the fact that, as I and others stated earlier,
there is no intrinsic safety issue with a spurious emission. Spurious
emissions only affect the ability to receive a radio signal. That was and
is
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in 123.96b6ec6.296
1b...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Mon, 31 Dec 2001:
(A key member of the IEC 61000-1-2 committee is a very senior safety
expert
and also a key member of the IEE Working Group that created this
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