Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

MY APPOLOGIES. I realize some of these have already been covered and that this is "out of step" with time. I got some messages back because roadrunner (my ISP) seems to be using a Windows SMTP server. (deduction I make from the outages corresponding with the latest windows code-red-and-friends

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

MY APPOLOGIES. I realize some of these have already been covered and that this is "out of step" with time. I got some messages back because roadrunner (my ISP) seems to be using a Windows SMTP server. (deduction I make from the outages corresponding with the latest windows code-red-and-friends

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

As a newbie (only 1.5 years around) I found the small bio posted by Stefano on the Cocoon-dev list very interesting and instructive. This post was triggered by curiosity and know-your-community concerns that popped up in a couple of Cocoon-dev threads less than 2 months ago. IMO, the fact that it

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

Ted Husted wrote: > At this point, I'm reconciled to do more work on the Jakata site using > XML in the old-fashioned way. I can't resonate more with your feelings. That's exactly what made me started the 'forrest' effort: the coherence on xml.apache.org and the ease of update has been slowly fa

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

> -Original Message- > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:55 PM > > > On 1/6/02 12:58 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ... > > If you start at the top of the thread, I declare I am playing devils' > advocate, and addressi

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote: > >> I doubt you are that different. > > *Looks down at his cookie monster slippers* +1! - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: For additional commands, e-mail:

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

On 1/6/02 1:17 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to > vote. > -Ambassador Kosh One of my favorite lines... -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consult

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment]POI@apache]

>Answer inline >> -Original Message- >> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 3:53 AM >> > > ... >> > >> >I can not express this POV better than Linus did in posts reported by >> >this article: >> > http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 >

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

On 1/6/02 12:56 PM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote: >>> Man, people that want documents in Excel and Word formats ALREADY have the >>> client software!!! It is called Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel! >> >> I looked and looked on my linux box, but couldn't

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

"Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote: > > Man, people that want documents in Excel and Word formats ALREADY have the > > client software!!! It is called Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel! > > I looked and looked on my linux box, but couldn't find it. Send me a CD. How about saving the postage and downlo

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

On 1/6/02 12:58 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> -Original Message- >> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:16 PM >> Isn't it fair to guess that the majority of your server side >> use would be reading documents

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

> -Original Message- > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:16 PM > > >> Isn't it fair to guess that the majority of your server side > use would be > >> reading documents for presentation, indexing, searching? > > > > WHY for presentation?

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 04:14, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > > BTW, do you know they use Velocity for something??? > > Who, POI? Cocoon have a VelocityGenerator (the first stage in their XML transformation pipeline). -- Cheers, Pete -- you've made a d

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

Again... > -Original Message- > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:14 PM > > On 1/6/02 12:11 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ... Lots of "is it server or is it client" talk ... I just mean that sometimes saying that s

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

On 1/6/02 12:18 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Here we go again, Alas. > >> -Original Message- >> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:45 AM >> >> >> Playing Devil's advocate. I think it's fair to push back on addin

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

On 1/6/02 12:11 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Geir, > Hi Paulo, >> -Original Message- >> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:30 AM >> >> ... >> >>> POI is as client-side as Tomcat is. >> >> Why do you say that

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

Here we go again, > -Original Message- > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:45 AM > > > Playing Devil's advocate. I think it's fair to push back on adding things > to Jakarta... > > On 1/5/02 9:53 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTE

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

Hi Geir, > -Original Message- > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:30 AM > > ... > > > POI is as client-side as Tomcat is. > > Why do you say that? It is used on the server side, and that's fantastic, > but in my opinion (note that I re

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

Answer inline > -Original Message- > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 3:53 AM > > > ... > > > >I can not express this POV better than Linus did in posts reported by > >this article: > >http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 > > >

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

Playing Devil's advocate. I think it's fair to push back on adding things to Jakarta... On 1/5/02 9:53 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Please read these posts and then tell me where you're not clear? > > http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg02681.ht

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

On 1/5/02 9:53 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 1/5/02 7:28 PM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> I am not trying to be combative - I have watched this thread (and >> participated) with growing discomfort. I have to say that I think that >> bringing XML and J

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

On 1/5/02 7:28 PM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I am not trying to be combative - I have watched this thread (and >participated) with growing discomfort. I have to say that I think that >bringing XML and Jakarta together might destroy the thing we are >supposedly >trying to 'save' (

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

>Hi Andrew, >Before trying to "organizize" too much how Open Source development >works, >maybe you should consider that impositions of organization and >discipline >could kill the Golden Eggs Chicken. >I can not express this POV better than Linus did in posts reported by >this article: >ht

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

"Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote: > > It's my understanding that Apache Projects' unity of purpose is > > > > "to encourage a collaborative, consensus-based development process" > > What does that exactly mean? Perhaps Stefano's original preamble said it best http://java.apache.org/main/constitution.

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

"Andrew C. Oliver" wrote: > Thats very high minded and a great mission statement in many respects. > I still say adding unity-of-purpose to Jakarta and creating some more > user-minded-distributions of things would be helpful from a user > perspective. If creating more user-minded-distributions i

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

t; To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI > @apache] > > > Not that I should have much of a role in this discussion but I'd like to > contribute some thoughts stemming from an offline discussion I had. > > I think th

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI@apache]

>"Andrew C. Oliver" wrote: >> > Not that I should have much of a role in this discussion but I'd >like to >> contribute some thoughts stemming from an offline discussion I had. >These are very thoughtful commnents, Andrew, I hope you post again. Thanks. Perhaps, this list is a little high tr

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

On 1/5/02 7:28 PM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Andrew C. Oliver" wrote: >> >> Not that I should have much of a role in this discussion but I'd like to >> contribute some thoughts stemming from an offline discussion I had. > > > > These are very thoughtful commnents, Andrew, I h

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

tevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:37 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI > @apache] > > > on 1/5/02 3:02 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > L

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

"Andrew C. Oliver" wrote: > > Not that I should have much of a role in this discussion but I'd like to > contribute some thoughts stemming from an offline discussion I had. These are very thoughtful commnents, Andrew, I hope you post again. It's my understanding that Apache Projects' unity o

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

Not that I should have much of a role in this discussion but I'd like to contribute some thoughts stemming from an offline discussion I had. I think this discussion is still missing the point. There are a lot of outsider articles on "what is wrong with Apache" these days, most of them refer to t

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @apache]

on 1/5/02 3:02 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Look closely, Xerces 2 is the designated successor to *both* Xerces 1 and > Crimson. The developers *are* working together. I won't pretend that > everything is 100% smooth sailing, but significant progress is being made. Yea...just li

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

At 18:02 05.01.2002 -0500, you wrote: >Ceki Gülcü wrote: >> >> IMHO, XML does not and will never have a community as long as two of >> its most important projects directly compete with each other. The >> success of one is related with the failure of the other. XML >> Community? Won't happen in a m

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

Ceki Gülcü wrote: > > IMHO, XML does not and will never have a community as long as two of > its most important projects directly compete with each other. The > success of one is related with the failure of the other. XML > Community? Won't happen in a million years. How the did Crimson > become a

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

Chris, I think you are confusing project categorization with project community. These things are very much unrelated. Regards, Ceki At 23:44 05.01.2002 +0100, you wrote: >Hello, >Each structure has a cost depending on his level of organization. I think >there is today to many project in the jak

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

At 15:31 05.01.2002 +0100, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: [Snip] >In my mind, all this long trail of thoughs yields the following >equation: > > metacommunity size * community coherence * individual freedom = constant This equation is misleading. Coherence and individual freedom are not inversely pr

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

Hello, Each structure has a cost depending on his level of organization. I think there is today to many project in the jakarta and the xml project. I feel confuse about finding the right information at the right place. And I think it's high time to merge xml and jakarta. The way java is organizing

RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

This is obvious from the "jakarta-commons" growing activity. More when you compare it with "xml-commons". Have fun, Paulo > -Original Message- > From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 7:35 PM > > ... > > My feeling is that communities need a critica

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

At 10:40 AM 1/5/02 -0500, you wrote: >I would also like to personally commend Jon with his efforts to better >document Jakarta. He has put a lot into the Web site (probably 90%), and >we all owe him a great debt. > >-Ted. Despite Jon's "candid remarks," as you put it, Ted, I too would like him t

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > > In my mind, all this long trail of thoughs yields the following > equation: > > metacommunity size * community coherence * individual freedom = > constant > > in result, if we unify the two projects, we double the size of the > metacommunity and we must pay the price o

Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

About a year ago, the PMC co-opted the General list for it ongoing meetings. Since then, it's been used for both general interest discussions, like what's up with Linus or Microsoft, along with the general business of running Jakarta. It's possible that we may need to create a discussion list fo