Cheers,
Konrad (off for lunch to Quantum)
Way late, but... was that the restaurant at KTH, Stockholm?
/Christian
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Christian Ridderström wrote:
Cheers,
Konrad (off for lunch to Quantum)
Way late, but... was that the restaurant at KTH, Stockholm?
Indeed. I am still at S3.
/Konrad
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008, Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Christian Ridderström wrote:
Cheers,
Konrad (off for lunch to Quantum)
Way late, but... was that the restaurant at KTH, Stockholm?
Indeed. I am still at S3.
Small world (I did my PhD there). Wonder how LyX users there are at KTH
these
Cheers,
Konrad (off for lunch to Quantum)
Way late, but... was that the restaurant at KTH, Stockholm?
/Christian
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Christian Ridderström wrote:
Cheers,
Konrad (off for lunch to Quantum)
Way late, but... was that the restaurant at KTH, Stockholm?
Indeed. I am still at S3.
/Konrad
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008, Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Christian Ridderström wrote:
> Cheers,
> Konrad (off for lunch to Quantum)
Way late, but... was that the restaurant at KTH, Stockholm?
Indeed. I am still at S3.
Small world (I did my PhD there). Wonder how LyX users there are at KTH
these
Christian Ridderström wrote:
Having said the above and sounding negative,
No, not at all!!! A different perspective ...
I think it's great that you
are looking at menu structure in a structured way!
I (sort of) came to the conclusion though that it is too late for 1.6
anyhow (especially
be careful about changing the menu
structure, and also that we should have good reasons for the changes. In a
perfect world, we'd even document _why_ we do the changes.
I haven't followed this thread, so the following idea has probably already
been raised, but just in case it hasn't: I think it'd
.
In general, I think we should be careful about changing the menu
structure, and also that we should have good reasons for the changes. In
a perfect world, we'd even document _why_ we do the changes.
It will need a VERY detailed WHY, to get any approval/consensus even
here on the devel-list, only.
I
Christian Ridderström wrote:
Having said the above and sounding negative,
No, not at all!!! A different perspective ...
I think it's great that you
are looking at menu structure in a structured way!
I (sort of) came to the conclusion though that it is too late for 1.6
anyhow (especially
be careful about changing the menu
structure, and also that we should have good reasons for the changes. In a
perfect world, we'd even document _why_ we do the changes.
I haven't followed this thread, so the following idea has probably already
been raised, but just in case it hasn't: I think it'd
.
In general, I think we should be careful about changing the menu
structure, and also that we should have good reasons for the changes. In
a perfect world, we'd even document _why_ we do the changes.
It will need a VERY detailed WHY, to get any approval/consensus even
here on the devel-list, only.
I
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Edwin (and others),
great thanks for starting to work on this!
I have a number of suggestions for changes, strictly based on the HIG
[1] (except those sentences starting with IMO). If something is left
open by the HIG, I refer to what I assume are applications that
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Can you point to a program where _all_ document-level settings are in
File menu? We shall not over-interpret the HIG.
I do not have much to compare to by hand, only OO 2.3 and Word 2003.
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has
and sounding negative, I think it's great that you
are looking at menu structure in a structured way!
/Christian
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Edwin (and others),
great thanks for starting to work on this!
I have a number of suggestions for changes, strictly based on the HIG
[1] (except those sentences starting with IMO). If something is left
open by the HIG, I refer to what I assume are applications that
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Can you point to a program where _all_ document-level settings are in
File menu? We shall not over-interpret the HIG.
I do not have much to compare to by hand, only OO 2.3 and Word 2003.
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has
t uncommon.)
Having said the above and sounding negative, I think it's great that you
are looking at menu structure in a structured way!
/Christian
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Konrad Hofbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And my impression from the earlier thread was that we should build
something based on HIGs, e.g.,
JMarc: the menu structure should be done after
looking at as many HIG and good quality mainstream programs as
possible.
JMarc again: We cannot discuss
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
This is why, while I really dislike things like Document settings in
File menu, I am a bit embarrassed to criticize you choices. But I'll
find a way around it ;) [*]
If we assume (for a moment) that there is no Document-menu, where would
you put the Document
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
This is why, while I really dislike things like Document settings in
File menu, I am a bit embarrassed to criticize you choices. But I'll
find a way around it ;) [*]
If we assume (for a moment) that there is no Document-menu, where
would you
Konrad Hofbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
This is why, while I really dislike things like Document settings in
File menu, I am a bit embarrassed to criticize you choices. But I'll
find a way around it ;) [*]
If we assume (for a moment) that there is no
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Pavel Sanda wrote:
just to give some feedback the file/document distinction to me as a user
is quite clear
Can you please (honestly) explain this distinction to me (or define)?
I feel like I am missing something here ...
I didn't follow this exact discussion, but if
Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
Can you please (honestly) explain this distinction to me (or define)?
I feel like I am missing something here ...
I didn't follow this exact discussion, but if you think of a book that
consists of a master file and several childs, the document would be the whole
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Example: The document settings do not apply to the whole book if I click
onto Document Settings while I am in a child document - something that
is not obvious.
Right. However, there are cases where you want to have different settings in a
child document (if you compile
Format. Probably at the top.
+1
Konrad Hofbauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> And my impression from the earlier thread was that we should build
> something based on HIGs, e.g.,
>
> JMarc: "the menu structure should be done after
> looking at as many HIG and good quality mainstream programs as
> po
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
This is why, while I really dislike things like Document settings in
File menu, I am a bit embarrassed to criticize you choices. But I'll
find a way around it ;) [*]
If we assume (for a moment) that there is no Document-menu, where would
you put the Document
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
This is why, while I really dislike things like Document settings in
File menu, I am a bit embarrassed to criticize you choices. But I'll
find a way around it ;) [*]
If we assume (for a moment) that there is no Document-menu, where
would you
Konrad Hofbauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
>> This is why, while I really dislike things like Document settings in
>> File menu, I am a bit embarrassed to criticize you choices. But I'll
>> find a way around it ;) [*]
>
> If we assume (for a moment) that there is no
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
> Pavel Sanda wrote:
> > just to give some feedback the file/document distinction to me as a user
> > is quite clear
>
> Can you please (honestly) explain this distinction to me (or define)?
> I feel like I am missing something here ...
I didn't follow this exact
Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
Can you please (honestly) explain this distinction to me (or define)?
I feel like I am missing something here ...
I didn't follow this exact discussion, but if you think of a book that
consists of a master file and several childs, the document would be the whole
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
> Example: The document settings do not apply to the whole book if I click
> onto Document Settings while I am in a child document - something that
> is not obvious.
Right. However, there are cases where you want to have different settings in a
child document (if you
> Format. Probably at the top.
>
+1
konrad wrote:
Edwin (and others),
great thanks for starting to work on this!
thanks for having a look as well...
I have a number of suggestions for changes, strictly based on
the HIG [1] (except those sentences starting with IMO).
just as a side note; i think it is good to have some
Hi Edwin,
thanks for your comments.
leuven edwin wrote:
konrad wrote:
just as a side note; i think it is good to have some directions, but i don't
think we should treat the apple hig as the holy bible (personally i like
apples, but as a fruit).
as i see it many of these ui design decisions
but let's see:
attached the reworked menu, following most of your suggestions
But there is a View menu everywhere - in the XP HIG, Vista
HIG, Apple HIG, Wordpad, Office 2003, ...
so now possibly also soon in lyx...
Don't refuse just because you don't like it.
that's what all religious
[4] Our document settings are file-specific parameters, saved with the
document, so it is IMO very similar to the Page Setup-item in the HIG:
Page Setup... . Opens a dialog for specifying printing parameters such
as paper size and printing orientation. These parameters are saved
with
the
as in attached
menu order:
file, edit, format, insert, math, go to, typeset, window, document,
application, help
toolbars is in application
fullscreen in window
i like this myself (if I can say that..)
hig2.inc
Description: hig2.inc
hig2.ui
Description: hig2.ui
Edwin,
for the sake of hig-ness - I guess that means I am higgy? Quite
possible. :-)
About the open/close windows, tabs, etc., and independent of the menue
discussion, I don't quite get what does what (esp. the Close tab
group). Should that not be a simple Close tab-functionality?
as in attached
Sort of.. ;-)
i like this myself (if I can say that..)
I like it too, but... (just being constructive)
- it is very sneaky to remove the View menu again.. Moving all items
from the Window menu into the View menu would ALSO be an option...
- The File-New Window and
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote:
Maybe, it is a HIG interpretation thing, but I'm seriously doubting that
the HIG says that content-related stuff like the Document settings...
must be in the File menu.
Correct. (but I still think it is the right place)
Things like page setup do not
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote:
- it is very sneaky to remove the View menu again.. Moving all items
from the Window menu into the View menu would ALSO be an option...
If you propose something like this, then please propose a LyX-Menu-HIG.
- The File-New Window and File-Close Window
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Maybe, it is a HIG interpretation thing, but I'm seriously doubting that
the HIG says that content-related stuff like the Document settings...
must be in the File menu. Things like page setup do not influence the
content of the document in
Konrad Hofbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
For example, LyX users are used to
having a Document-Settings... Item. They will be disturbed if they have
to look for one of the most important menu items.
IMO - no, no, no. If we start to care about legacy, nothing good will
come out.
Can you
leuven edwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I did not know that, I see know. It should not be like this
(i.e. Inset states should be independent in multiple views
IMO), but this is another topic...
collapsed status is also saved in the document (like it or not), so
i have put this in the file
leuven edwin wrote:
i like this myself (if I can say that..)
I don't.
Which HIG does it follow?
/Konrad
collapsed status is also saved in the document (like it or not), so
i have put this in the file menu for now
I would not do that. File menu is more for physical state of the
document (so I guess Compressed can belong there). If you do that, why
not put Insert Table Float too???
hey don't
leuven edwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
collapsed status is also saved in the document (like it or not), so
i have put this in the file menu for now
I would not do that. File menu is more for physical state of the
document (so I guess Compressed can belong there). If you do that, why
not put
Maybe, it is a HIG interpretation thing, but I'm seriously doubting
that the HIG says that content-related stuff like the Document
settings...
must be in the File menu.
Correct. (but I still think it is the right place)
Things like page setup do not influence the content of the
- it is very sneaky to remove the View menu again.. Moving all items
from the Window menu into the View menu would ALSO be an option...
not sneaky, i just moved the 2 items in the view menu. the window menu was much
fuller so i makes sense not to name it view. of course we could s/window/view/
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Can you point to a program where _all_ document-level settings are in
File menu? We shall not over-interpret the HIG.
I do not have much to compare to by hand, only OO 2.3 and Word 2003.
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has Properties in File.
Both of them
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Can you point to a program where _all_ document-level settings are in
File menu? We shall not over-interpret the HIG.
I do not have much to compare to by hand, only OO 2.3 and Word 2003.
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has
Konrad Hofbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has Properties in File.
Both of them don't have a Document menu. Both have (a Windows-HIG)
Tools menu.
What is the difference between file and document in the first place ???
In OO FileProperties is not very
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
leuven edwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
collapsed status is also saved in the document (like it or not), so
i have put this in the file menu for now
I would not do that. File menu is more for physical state of the
document (so I guess Compressed can belong there). If
, and there is a rationale behind it.
Neither Word, OO or any of my Text-Editors has a Document-menu.
I would be nice to dig the old thread concerning the current menu
structure. John Levon had a pretty through analysis of Higs at the
time.
JMarc
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Konrad Hofbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has Properties in File.
Both of them don't have a Document menu. Both have (a Windows-HIG)
Tools menu.
What is the difference between file and document in the first place ???
In
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What if the HIG doesn't have the correct place for these items...?
You remove the feature.
JMarc
Konrad Hofbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Forgot (sorry for the noise):
And both don't have any more document-level settings, as far as I can see.
Not a FormatPage, by chance? A toolsLanguage?
JMarc
, and there is a rationale behind it.
Neither Word, OO or any of my Text-Editors has a Document-menu.
I would be nice to dig the old thread concerning the current menu
structure. John Levon had a pretty through analysis of Higs at the
time.
I've been idly watching this thread. It's obviously unfair of me
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote:
Well, I just wanted to make a distinction between content-related and
content-unrelated items. (And I chose Document, because LyX has already
a Document menu and I do care about legacy, see below)
The name Document does not really transport the notion of
And I disklike a document-menu:
It breaks the cross-platform HIG concept of File - View -
Window menus, and I do not understand what is the difference
between a file and a document.
You may dislike it. I never said it has to be a Document menu; never
said that it is very common to have a
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Konrad Hofbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Forgot (sorry for the noise):
And both don't have any more document-level settings, as far as I can see.
Not a FormatPage, by chance? A toolsLanguage?
In that sense, yes, you are right.
The question is what we learn by
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote:
I only reasoned
that some of the items did not belong to the place they were put
according to the HIG.
And to propose something else, I found a common factor and I remembered
having a menu in LyX where they might fit in.
Sure.
Please, be welcome to
Sorry (really), can you please tell me (again) which items you don't
see fit?
These could be in Document/Tools:
[Edit] Spellcheck
[Edit] Thesaurus
[Edit] Change tracking
[File] Statistics
This one Document/Format:
[File] Document Settings
Somewhere else in the File menu:
[File] New Window
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
For example, LyX users are used to having a Document-Settings... Item.
They will be disturbed if they have to look for one of the most
important menu items.
IMO - no, no, no. If we start to care about legacy, nothing good will
come out.
And it is worth remembering
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote:
Somewhere else in the File menu:
[File] New Window
[File] Close Window
The HIG do not really specify this (I only took that from Firefox and
Safari). One could also argue that these two should be in Window.
These could be in Document/Tools:
[Edit]
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Can you point to a program where _all_ document-level settings are in
File menu? We shall not over-interpret the HIG.
I do not have much to compare to by hand, only OO 2.3 and Word 2003.
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has Properties in File.
Both of them
Pavel Sanda wrote:
just to give some feedback the file/document distinction to me as a user is
quite clear
Can you please (honestly) explain this distinction to me (or define)?
I feel like I am missing something here ...
and adding the items into file menu looks pretty messy.
That is
Le 17 sept. 08 à 20:27, Konrad Hofbauer a écrit :
P.S. On accusing me of fraud / cover up: Have you really worked
through
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.editors.lyx.devel/110921
to be able to say so ??? I think it should be enough to support my
claims once with a proper reference, and not
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Le 17 sept. 08 à 20:27, Konrad Hofbauer a écrit :
P.S. On accusing me of fraud / cover up: Have you really worked through
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.editors.lyx.devel/110921
to be able to say so ??? I think it should be enough to support my
claims once with a
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Pavel Sanda wrote:
just to give some feedback the file/document distinction to me as a user
is
quite clear
Can you please (honestly) explain this distinction to me (or define)?
I feel like I am missing something here ...
i will try.
when i go to the file, i'm
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Le 17 sept. 08 ? 20:27, Konrad Hofbauer a écrit :
P.S. On accusing me of fraud / cover up: Have you really worked through
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.editors.lyx.devel/110921
to be able to say so ??? I think it should be enough to support my claims
once with
happy to be involved,
in the earlier case I will not be involved very much (but just as happy).
And my impression from the earlier thread was that we should build
something based on HIGs, e.g.,
JMarc: the menu structure should be done after
looking at as many HIG and good quality mainstream
I think that either we build something based on likes/dislikes,
or something based on HIGs. In the later case, I am happy to be
involved, in the earlier case I will not be involved very much
(but just as happy).
You're right, but:
- In the thread it was also mentioned that we would like to
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote:
I think that either we build something based on likes/dislikes,
or something based on HIGs. In the later case, I am happy to be
involved, in the earlier case I will not be involved very much
(but just as happy).
You're right, but:
What follow are all very
John Levon wrote:
- what the biggest problems are with the current structure
Some statistics : first figure is the number of menu items, the second
number the total menu + sub-menus + sub-sub-menus items
LyX svn blank document with a table
File : 17 ; 53
Edit : 17 ; 79
View : 19 ; 55
Insert :
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 01:03:38AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
1) The number of items is very big. Do we have any room to grow ? Oowriter
interface is a clone of the old Word interface that was considered a
3) There is IMHO useless complexity, like the 7 different preview formats.
If we
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Not sure how we proceed from here.
hmm if we are in black hole, then lets try to get little back in the
discussion.
what was the reason to the menu change? imho the fact that users(=we) are
discontent with the current menu.
so the first thing, the end result has to be
konrad wrote:
> Edwin (and others),
>
> great thanks for starting to work on this!
thanks for having a look as well...
> I have a number of suggestions for changes, strictly based on
> the HIG [1] (except those sentences starting with IMO).
just as a side note; i think it is good to have some
Hi Edwin,
thanks for your comments.
leuven edwin wrote:
konrad wrote:
just as a side note; i think it is good to have some directions, but i don't
think we should treat the apple hig as the holy bible (personally i like
apples, but as a fruit).
as i see it many of these ui design decisions
> > but let's see:
attached the reworked menu, following most of your suggestions
> But there is a View menu everywhere - in the XP HIG, Vista
> HIG, Apple HIG, Wordpad, Office 2003, ...
so now possibly also soon in lyx...
> Don't refuse just because you don't like it.
that's what all
> [4] Our document settings are file-specific parameters, saved with the
> document, so it is IMO very similar to the Page Setup-item in the HIG:
> Page Setup... . Opens a dialog for specifying printing parameters such
> as paper size and printing orientation. These parameters are saved
with
as in attached
menu order:
file, edit, format, insert, math, go to, typeset, window, document,
application, help
toolbars is in application
fullscreen in window
i like this myself (if I can say that..)
hig2.inc
Description: hig2.inc
hig2.ui
Description: hig2.ui
Edwin,
"for the sake of hig-ness" - I guess that means I am higgy? Quite
possible. :-)
About the open/close windows, tabs, etc., and independent of the menue
discussion, I don't quite get what does what (esp. the "Close tab
group"). Should that not be a simple "Close tab"-functionality?
> as in attached
Sort of.. ;-)
> i like this myself (if I can say that..)
I like it too, but... (just being constructive)
- it is very sneaky to remove the View menu again.. Moving all items
from the Window menu into the View menu would ALSO be an option...
- The File->New Window and
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote:
Maybe, it is a HIG interpretation thing, but I'm seriously doubting that
the HIG says that content-related stuff like the "Document settings..."
must be in the File menu.
Correct. (but I still think it is the right place)
Things like page setup do not
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote:
- it is very sneaky to remove the View menu again.. Moving all items
from the Window menu into the View menu would ALSO be an option...
If you propose something like this, then please propose a LyX-Menu-HIG.
- The File->New Window and File->Close Window
"Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Maybe, it is a HIG interpretation thing, but I'm seriously doubting that
> the HIG says that content-related stuff like the "Document settings..."
> must be in the File menu. Things like page setup do not influence the
> content of the
Konrad Hofbauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> For example, LyX users are used to
>> having a Document->Settings... Item. They will be disturbed if they have
>> to look for one of the most important menu items.
>
> IMO - no, no, no. If we start to care about legacy, nothing good will
> come out.
leuven edwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> I did not know that, I see know. It should not be like this
>> (i.e. Inset states should be independent in multiple views
>> IMO), but this is another topic...
>
> collapsed status is also saved in the document (like it or not), so
> i have put this in
leuven edwin wrote:
i like this myself (if I can say that..)
I don't.
Which HIG does it follow?
/Konrad
>> collapsed status is also saved in the document (like it or not), so
>> i have put this in the file menu for now
>
> I would not do that. File menu is more for physical state of the
> document (so I guess Compressed can belong there). If you do that, why
> not put "Insert Table Float" too???
leuven edwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> collapsed status is also saved in the document (like it or not), so
>>> i have put this in the file menu for now
>>
>> I would not do that. File menu is more for physical state of the
>> document (so I guess Compressed can belong there). If you do that,
> > Maybe, it is a HIG interpretation thing, but I'm seriously doubting
> > that the HIG says that content-related stuff like the "Document
settings..."
> > must be in the File menu.
>
> Correct. (but I still think it is the right place)
>
> > Things like page setup do not influence the
> - it is very sneaky to remove the View menu again.. Moving all items
> from the Window menu into the View menu would ALSO be an option...
not sneaky, i just moved the 2 items in the view menu. the window menu was much
fuller so i makes sense not to name it view. of course we could
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Can you point to a program where _all_ document-level settings are in
File menu? We shall not over-interpret the HIG.
I do not have much to compare to by hand, only OO 2.3 and Word 2003.
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has "Properties" in File.
Both of
Konrad Hofbauer wrote:
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
Can you point to a program where _all_ document-level settings are in
File menu? We shall not over-interpret the HIG.
I do not have much to compare to by hand, only OO 2.3 and Word 2003.
Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has
Konrad Hofbauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Word 2003 has the Page Setup in File, OO has "Properties" in File.
> Both of them don't have a Document menu. Both have (a Windows-HIG)
> Tools menu.
> What is the difference between file and document in the first place ???
In OO File>Properties is
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
leuven edwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
collapsed status is also saved in the document (like it or not), so
i have put this in the file menu for now
I would not do that. File menu is more for physical state of the
document (so I guess Compressed can belong there). If
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