RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
It might be as well just during the revelation that Baha'u'llah is divine and He is the Voice of God.and when He says I am Omniscient, in fact I refers to God. Dear Firouz, Then wouldn't we be more like Islam and only regard specific Writings written in a certain state as revelation, rather than anything that issued from Baha'u'llah's Pen? It seems to me that in the Baha'i Faith it is the Manifestation who is ultimately the Word of God and whatever He reveals is such only secondarily. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Then wouldn't we be more like Islam and only regard specific Writings written in a certain state as revelation, rather than anything that issued from Baha'u'llah's Pen? I do believe what ever Baha'u'llah penned was the Words of God. His Person being the Supreme Manifestation of God. But at the same time He had a physical body with many physical limitation very similar to ours. When He says that He is in pain, that may not be the Word of God that He is expressing, He as a human being feels pain and expresses his feeling. It seems to me that in the Baha'i Faith it is the Manifestation who is ultimately the Word of God and whatever He reveals is such only secondarily. Yes that's true but it also depends on how one interprets it. I am sure you well know about the Tablet of Jamal Brujerdi where Baha'u'llah explains about His stations. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
I do believe what ever Baha'u'llah penned was the Words of God. His Person being the Supreme Manifestation of God. But at the same time He had a physical body with many physical limitation very similar to ours. When He says that He is in pain, that may not be the Word of God that He is expressing, He as a human being feels pain and expresses his feeling. JS: I do not believewe can separate these with our limited and imperfectmind or heart. Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
"Could omniscience of Manifestation of God be at spiritual level only but not physical level?" Dear Firouz, I would certainly feel more comfortable if this was the case, but that doesn't appear to be what Baha'u'llah is saying in the Lawh-i Hikmat at all. It also does not appear to reflect the Guardian's understanding. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
[ My understanding of Omniscient in Law-i-Hikmat refers to His divine station. Baha'u'llah in His Divine station is God and Omniscient but in His Physical station He had His physical limitations similar to all of us. That's why He read books and newspapers. Yeah, but what does that mean in rea life? Sometimes Baha'u'llah indicates He accessed the contents of books supernaturally, other times He states He did so the usual way. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Firouz: [ My understanding of Omniscient in Law-i-Hikmat refers to His divine station. Baha'u'llah in His Divine station is God and Omniscient but in His Physical station He had His physical limitations similar to all of us. That's why He read books and newspapers. Susan: Yeah, but what does that mean in rea life? Sometimes Baha'u'llah indicates He accessed the contents of books supernaturally, other times He states He did so the usual way. Dear Susan, It might be as well just during the revelation that Baha'u'llah is divine and He is the Voice of God.and when He says I am Omniscient, in fact I refers to God. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/29/2004 8:34:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In studying the Writings, we should not take a single verse on its own, but rather take a wide selection of the writings. Dear Firouz, I would take this to mean that sometimes Baha'u'llah accessed books supernaturally and other times He did so the old fashion way. In other words, most of the time, He didn't 'will' omniscience. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In studying the Writings, we should not take a single verse on its own, but rather take a wide selection of the writings. Dear Firouz, I would take this to mean that sometimes Baha'u'llah accessed books supernaturally and other times He did so the old fashion way. In other words, most of the time, He didn't 'will' omniscience. Dear Susan, Could omniscience of Manifestation of God be at spiritual level only but not physical level? regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Yes, hello , Elaine, I am very familiar with your account of your conversion, from your web site. It is the most moving Baha'i conversion account I have ever read. By all means, I recommend that anyone who has not read your account, do so at your web site http://elainna.org/Spirit/Journey.html It rings of authenticity and is probably the most miraculous account of an experience that I have ever been able to believe in, in Baha'i literature. In addition, I have greatly enjoyed other written works on your web site. Peace and love, Ron Stephens On Dec 30, 2004, at 9:04 PM, Elaine Crowell wrote: Dear Ron, I was 35 when I embraced the Faith. I was a seeker after transcendence since I was 12 or maybe 15. I tell the story of my conversion on my web-site.http://elainna.org/Spirit/Journey.html Unlike most of the Baha'is I know, I came to the faith through a series of visionary experiences. My first Baha'i book was The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys, my second, Proclamation to the Nations by Shoghi Effendi, and my third was Gleanings. Each of these books made a deep impression on me However it was the second which set up an internal conflict that finally brought me to the point of declaring. I was nearly torn apart by a combination of these books and my visions. Perhaps one of the things which helped me was my awareness of how ignorant I really was and a set of guide lines I created to guide my search for a true religion. The following is taken from my narrative. WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A TRUE RELIGION? By true, I meant something, which was understandable and would facilitate spiritual development on a personal and social level. I came up with the following: A true religion would be universal. It would offer something for everyone irrespective of his or her age, education, and cultural or social background. It would not be for the elite, neither would it succumb to populist views or special interest groups. A True religion would focus on spiritual education rather than on sin and the need for redemption. It would not set itself up as the arbiter between the value and worth of certain souls and the wickedness of others. A true religion would be as concerned with the welfare of the whole human race as it was with individuals. It would be part of the world, not some isolated, insulated, naval gazing cult. Finally, and possibly most important, A True religion would not necessarily agree with my preferences and expectations. It would not conform to my limited and biased point of view. I added this last stipulation because I knew I had outgrown nearly every belief I had previously held. Therefore, if I found something that was in complete accord with my beliefs and feelings, I would eventually cease to grow. You asked about doubts. Yes I have them but my chief doubts are about myself, my understanding and the Baha'i Community. Not being an intellectual or an academic, I prefer to focus on action rather than theory. For example the Tragedy in South-East Asia has claimed at least 100,000 souls and the people there desperately need help. I am praying along with another group of women on line. I wonder why no one has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i Communities there? I would like it if the Faith was perfectly logical rational and if my fellow Baha'is were more supportive and could instantly translate the Writings into action. However, it is very difficult for me to be critical of others when I know how far short of the standard I fall. Warm Wishes, Elainna The Doors are open at Elainna's New Place http://elainna.org The Wild Side http://elainnas-wild-side.net __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:12:25 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder why no one has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i Communities there? I'm sure there are. What I'm wondering is if there are any SEDs in those areas which might be helping to provide relief and if so, where could we send $$? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:12:25 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder why no one has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i Communities there? I went to Feast last night, and we read letters from the NSAs of Thailand and Malaysia; in both those countries, the Friends were spared any loss of life, and suffered only minimal property damage. I dont know about other areas. There are Bah organizations that are assisting with the relief efforts. I will try to have some addresses this afternoon. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. I was raised as a Catholic, and had no interest in changing my religion, at the time I first heard of the Baha'i Faith. A friend in my college dormitory told me about the Faith, and I thought it was weird. But then I began reading the Hidden Words, and the Kitab-i-Iqan, and the spiritual power and authority in those words was obvious. It was clear to me that the Author of those books wrote with God's Pen. This realization was a terrible wrench and shock to me, because I was very comfortable in the Catholic church; I didn't want anything to upset my faith; I wanted to stay in my rut. I resisted conversion for about two years; during that time I asked a lot of questions, and prayed a lot to Jesus to show me the path to follow. In the end, it was Christ's response to my prayers, and the power of Baha'u'llah's words, that convinced me that He was Who He claimed to be. I actually did not want to become a Baha'i, but once I believed in Baha'u'llah, there was no choice. Tim Nolan__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
SC: To my way of thinking to deny the Power of God to express His Will through a human Mouthpiece, as were all His Manifestations, is to deny all Creation. RS: How so? Inspite of all our [human] observations and subsequent replications of principles in Creation it only serves to remind us of our own limitations and the realization of a Power greater than any human endowment. Once this realization is attained it then becomes simply apparent that this Power is capable of anything within human imagination. RS: And it still violates Occam's Razor. That should concern me? There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. RS: Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an interpreter becuase he could't understand English well without one? Why else would Abdu'l-Baha use an interpreter ? Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Dear Brent, On this point I would disagree with you...; if you are saying Baha'u'llah did not see a Maiden and I believe that is what you are saying. Shoghi Effendi does not say the images were symbols conjured up by the Manifestations to relate Their experience. He says the images were symbols of the Most Great Spirit. I feel the Guardian is saying that although the images appeared in different forms they all were symbolically the ONE Most Great Spirit. My understanding is that the various images describe the form or appearance of the Most Great Spirit as visualized/imagined by each of the Manifestations. Lovingly, Sandra You wrote: It is my understanding that there was no Maiden. Shoghi Effendi writes of Baha'u'llah's vision of the Maiden in the Siyah-Chal that the Maiden, and all the other images used for the earlier Manifestations of God, were symbols: ...at so critical an hour and under such appalling circumstances the Most Great Spirit, as designated by Himself, and symbolized in the Zoroastrian, the Mosaic, the Christian, and Muhammadan Dispensations by the Sacred Fire, the Burning Bush, the Dove and the Angel Gabriel respectively, descended upon, and revealed itself, personated by a Maiden, to the agonized soul of Bahá'u'llá (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 100) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
for instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind, i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet but He chose that phrase and image to try to communicate His reality to us. There is an interesting record of a conversation in one of Stanwood Cobb's books, I don't recall which, where the Master was asked Do you know everything to which He replied No, but when I need to know something it appears before me as on a moving scroll. I don't recall the book, and this is a paraphrase from memory. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. I was raised in a mainstream Protestant church, and never found it satisfying. I spent many years exploring various religions. I was a Quaker for many years, and I spent about ten years in the Foundation Faith of God, a church which is a fringe group and in many of the cult books, but which I found to contain some of the truest Christians I have ever met. I first heard of the Baháí Faith in 1971, and had Baháí friends at various times throughout my life, but although I knew and admired the Faith I did not take it seriously until 2001. When I began studying it seriously and reading the writings, I just knew. Having studied the Bible for years, I felt it was obvious that Baháulláh and Jesus spoke with the same voice. I felt I had always been a Baháí, but simply hadnt realized it. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Hi, Dave, At 08:42 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: I was a Quaker for many years, and I spent about ten years in the Foundation Faith of God, a church which is a fringe group and in many of the cult books, but which I found to contain some of the truest Christians I have ever met. When you were in it, did they still have similar quasi-Gnostic teachings (re: Satan, etc.) to when they were the Process Church of the Final Judgement? With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Brent, At 06:50 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: There is an interesting record of a conversation in one of Stanwood Cobb's books, I don't recall which, where the Master was asked Do you know everything to which He replied No, but when I need to know something it appears before me as on a moving scroll. I don't recall the book, and this is a paraphrase from memory. That was the way Stanwood explained it to a few of us who gathered around him at Green Acre. The wording, as I recall it, was, No, but if I need to know something, it is pictured before me as if on a moving screen., The story is actually in at least two of his books. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. The other thing I keep wondering about is certainty. I freely admit, I have little certainly about anything. I really am amazed at the degree of certainty others have about religious matters. (This amazement of mine applies equally to folks of all religious backgrounds, not just Baha'is). How can you be certain. Do you ever have doubts. The first requirement for the attainment of certitude, is possessing a thirst for certitude. If one does not believe certitude is attainable, there won't be a thirst for it. There is a Sufi poem that says if you want to find water, Seek thirst, and water from the very ground will burst. So being thirsty is a spiritual attainment. The thirst is a vehicle that carries you over the difficulties and challenges, and many inner changes to go through. Mirza Abu'l-Fazl said that he read the Iqan 18 times with the eye of intellect and it was a string of meaningless words; then he read it a 19th time with spiritual eyes and it opened the divine mysteries for him. The Iqan has whatever we are thirsting for, and as we progress spiritually, it yields more to our search. So I urge your careful prayerful study of that Book. Its guidance will lead you to what you are seeking. Even the first two pages give the essentials: To be detached from all that is earthly including idle talk, and to cease to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God. So it is detachment not only from worldly goods, but from opinions. It is my understanding that there is another essential element, identified by the Guardian as the foundation of human spirituality: The thing the German believers must do is to deepen themselves in the Covenants of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha. Mere intellectual understanding of the teachings is not enough. Deep spirituality is essential, and the foundation of true spirituality is steadfastness in the Covenant. (Shoghi Effendi's secretary on his behalf, letter dated 31 March 1949, The Light of Divine Guidance, Volume 2, p. 83) I would also like to draw attention to one element in particular in the guidance for the true seeker of certitude, given in the Iqan, and that is seeking right company: With all his heart he [the true seeker] should avoid fellowship with evil-doers. He should treasure the companionship of them that have renounced the world, and regard avoidance of boastful and worldly people a precious benefit. (The Book of Certitude, p. 194). Associating with people whose spiritual condition is harmful, will take you back two steps for every step you take forward. The House of Justice mentions this in one of its letters: There is one other condition which should be mentioned. There are certain former Bah's whose actions do not necessarily constitute Covenant-breaking, but are seriously destructive. Where such people have shown that they are impervious to explanations or exhortations from the Bah' institutions, continued association with them can be burdensome and can exert a spiritually corrosive effect on the faith of believers. In such cases the Head of the Faith may simply advise the Bah's to leave them to their own devices. (4 April 2001 message from the House of Justice to all National Spiritual Assemblies, posted to the Net at http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m25764.html ) So in answer to your question I would suggest: 1. In the attainment of certitude, there is no better source than reflective study of the Iqan and putting its counsels into practice 2. Firmness in the Covenants of Baha'u'llah and the Master is the foundation of true spirituality 3. Avoidance of people who have a harmful effect on one's faith and certitude. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/30/2004 1:46:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "There is one other condition which should be mentioned. There arecertain former Bah whose actions do not necessarily constituteCovenant-breaking, but are seriously destructive. Where such people have shown that they are impervious to explanations or exhortations from the Bahinstitutions, continued association with them can be burdensome and can exert a spiritually corrosive effect on the faith of believers. In such cases the Head of the Faith may simply advise the Bah to leave them to their own devices." (4 April 2001 message from the House of Justice to all National Spiritual Assemblies, posted to the Net at http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m25764.html ) Dear Brent, An experience I have had, and I think this may be true for Ron as well is that sometimes the associating with Baha'is in perfectly good standing can be more corrosive to ones faith than associating with the folks mentioned above. For instance, while I find the Baha'i Discuss list more personally corrosive than I find TRB, though I wouldn't recommend anyone hang around the latter. What do we do in those cases, stop hanging around Baha'is? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
If I'm not mistaken, a similar thing is reported in Dr. Afrukhtih's Nine years memoirs of Akka. Are any of Cobb's books on-line? Regards, Ahang. --- Brent Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: for instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind, i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet but He chose that phrase and image to try to communicate His reality to us. There is an interesting record of a conversation in one of Stanwood Cobb's books, I don't recall which, where the Master was asked Do you know everything to which He replied No, but when I need to know something it appears before me as on a moving scroll. I don't recall the book, and this is a paraphrase from memory. Brent __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Mark wrote: When you were in it, did they still have similar quasi-Gnostic teachings (re: Satan, etc.) to when they were the Process Church of the Final Judgement? As I recall, their teachings were pretty traditional. We didn't talk about Satan much. The focus was on service. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/30/2004 5:49:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: RS: Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an interpreter becuase he could't understand English well without one? Why else would Abdu'l-Baha use an interpreter ? Dear Ron and Sandra, I think Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English may well have been adequate to understand people without an interpreter much of the time, at least by the timeHe left America.I suspect speaking English back to them may have beenmore of a problem. But when a translator got it wrong, He was often able to correct them. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Susan, At 04:50 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote: I think Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English may well have been adequate to understand people without an interpreter much of the time, at least by the time He left America. I suspect speaking English back to them may have been more of a problem. But when a translator got it wrong, He was often able to correct them My friend, the late Ruhiyyih McComb (originally, Muset Montana Jones), who was named by `Abdul-Baha when she was 8 or 9 years old, said that `Abdu'l-Baha spoke with her in English several times. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
My friend, the late Ruhiyyih McComb (originally, Muset Montana Jones), who was named by `Abdul-Baha when she was 8 or 9 years old, said that `Abdu'l-Baha spoke with her in English several times. Yes, He had at least a decent amount of conversational English. There are several instances of conversations He had with American believers when no translator was present. I think they were mostly used for formal talks. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Sandra Chamberlain wrote: Dear Ron, you wrote: Since every Manifestation acted consistently with natural law, and acted as if They were not omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they were Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived their lives acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid Joke pretending to be human in the real world when in reality They were Magicians above it all. To my way of thinking to deny the Power of God to express His Will through a human Mouthpiece, as were all His Manifestations, is to deny all Creation. How so? Omniscient at will.. Whose will? Baha'u'llah prayed: Aid me, O my Lord, to surrender myself wholly to Thy Will. Good point. But I still wonder why God would do it this way. And it still violates Occam's Razor. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an interpreter becuase he could't understand English well without one? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Hi Ron, But Abdu'l-Baha is not omniscient at will. To me, He did not know english that well. If you ask, why did Baha'u'llah not speakwith Browne in English, it is because he didn't know English. Does this make senseif He is omniscient at will? I think it does because I can argue that he did not will to know English. I don't think he likes playing magician!Ron Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Sandra Chamberlain wrote: Dear Ron, you wrote: Since every Manifestation acted consistently with natural law, and acted as if They were not omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they were Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived their lives acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid Joke pretending to be human in the real world when in reality They were Magicians above it all. To my way of thinking to deny the Power of God to express His Will through a "human" Mouthpiece, as were all His Manifestations, is to deny all Creation.How so? Omniscient at will.. Whose will? Baha'u'llah prayed: "Aid me, O my Lord, to surrender myself wholly to Thy Will."Good point. But I! still wonder why God would do it this way. And it still violates Occam's Razor. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an interpreter becuase he could't understand English well without one?__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Brent Poirier wrote: As to the omniscience of the Manifestation, it is referred to in more than one place. For example, on the subject of Baha'u'llah's appointment of Abdu'l-Baha as successor and interpreter of the Word, Abdu'l-Baha writes of the omniscience of the Manifestation: My reply: I have no problem with that, of course. i believe in everything that is in the Writings. But the omniscience referred to is relative, not absolute, to my way of thinking; just like Baha'u'llah could refer to Himself as God , but we know (because He told us) that he is not at all the same as the essence of God. To take His statement that He can call Himself God simply and literally woudl be a great error; I think to take the Master's statement about His omniscience simply and literally would be a equally great error. The point at issue is clear, direct and of utmost brevity. Either Bahá'u'lláh was wise, omniscient and aware of what would ensue, or was ignorant and in error. (Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 213) As to the power of a person lacking omniscience to interpret the universal mind of the Manifestation, that is an interestingly-posed question, and an apparent paradox. But resolution of paradoxes is a part of our spiritual life. The Master asserts His own ability to accurately state the implications of the Words of Baha'u'llah, as does Shoghi Effendi: Addressing all the people of the world He saith: When the Mystic Dove flieth away from the orchard of praise to the Most Supreme and Invisible Station -- that is, when the Blessed Beauty turneth away from the contingent world towards the invisible realm -- refer whatever ye do not understand in the Book to Him Who hath branched from the Ancient Root. That is, whatever He saith is the very truth. (Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 214) The fact that the Guardian has been specifically endowed with such power as he may need to reveal the purport and disclose the implications of the utterances of Bahá'u'lláh and of 'Abdu'l-Bahá does not necessarily confer upon him a station co-equal with those Whose words he is called upon to interpret. He can exercise that right and discharge this obligation and yet remain infinitely inferior to both of them in rank and different in nature. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 151) My reply: I am in complerte harmony with all of the above quotes. As to the scriptural evidences that the Manifestations are not omniscient, I believe that these fall within the Master's explanation in Some Answered Questions, in a chapter on the Explanation of the rebukes addressed by God to the Prophets. The Master explains that when God criticizes the Prophets, the address is only outwardly to the Manifestation, but in reality to educate the people. The Master gives the example (SAQ p. 169) of Moses striking the rock in the wilderness, when God told Him to speak to it. This is often viewed as proof that Moses sinned, but as the Master explained, it was the Israelites, not Moses, who erred. As to the Maid of Heaven, my understanding is that this is not a reference to when Baha'u'llah became aware of His Mission. It is when His Mission began. In Some Answered Questions, in a chapter entitled Outward Forms and Symbols must be used to Convey Intellectual Conceptions, the Master explains that the state and condition of the Manifestation is not comprehensible by man and in order for man to comprehend, symbols are used. The Master then explains Baha'u'llah's statement in a Tablet to the Shah, that He was asleep and then He awoke. Briefly, the Holy Manifestations have ever been, and ever will be, Luminous Realities; no change or variation takes place in Their essence. Before declaring Their manifestation, They are silent and quiet like a sleeper, and after Their manifestation, They speak and are illuminated, like one who is awake. (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 85) So this is an example of a statement in the Writings -- the statement that the Manifestation was asleep on His couch and the breezes of God awoke Him -- that should be understood symbolically. My reply: Yes, the Manifestation's essence is the same for all eternity, backwards and forwards. But, They are asleep until They are apprised of their Mission at a specific point in their adult lives. So They did not consciously know about it until then, isn't that what these passages are saying? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public -
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
On Dec 29, 2004, at 12:29 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: My reply: I assume Abraham actually existed. Of course there is no objective proof for this, but I take the Manifestations' Word for this You mean, Their omniscience? I take Their statements literally unless thye violate natural law. The existence of a human who inspired the stories about Abraham does not require violation of physical laws of the universe, it is , in other words, credible, even when understood literally. So I do take it literally. Why strain at a gnat and swallow a camel? This drives me crazy when you do it, often, Dr. Maneck. You accept wildly improbable notions like Omniscience at Will Apparently we have different ideas as to which are the gnats and which are the camels. I accept that the Manifestation is 'omniscient at will' because the Guardian indicated this was so. As usual, there is the question of waht does omniscient at will mean? I apply to the this statement of the Guardian's secretary the standard raised by Baha'u'llah when assessing the Books of previous Manifestations: is it credible literally, or does it require spiritual interpretation to make it credible? Doe sit conform with logic , common sense and human reason when taken literally? If not, could it not be spiritual adn symbolic in meaning? is the Guardian's secretary now a higher authority than the text of teh Quran to which Baha'u'llah applied this standard in teh IqaN? You begin to see how our literal understanding of Infallibility begins to cause absurdities, (as secretary with more Authority than than Muhammad and Baha'u'llah combined). Since every Manifestation acted consistently with natural law, Is this in the Writings somewhere, or just a presumption on your part? My reply: Wow. This baffles me the most. I don't need to quote scripture. Just look at Their lives, all of Them. They lived, they died they breathed etc etc etc. They walked, they didn't teleport themselves. Thye didn't go around violating natural laws. Name on natural law Baha'u'llah violated. There are miracles associated with Baha'u'llah. You chose not to accept them. Whether or not these constituted violations of natural law I'm not prepared to say. But I wouldn't make categorical statements about it either way. What are these miracles associated: with Baha'u'llah? How are they associated? Did Baha'u'llah record them Himself? Keep in mind, I *do* most assuredly believe in miracles. But the miracles I believe in are spiritual, not violations of natural physical law. God is a law maker, not a law breaker. My replY: Yes, a Natural one and a very mystical, symbolic one. No, a divine nature* not a mystical, symbolic one. It is just as real as their human nature. I agree, Their Divine Nature is completely real, but spiritual, not physical. Their physical natures were human. You do in spiritual realities, do you not? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/29/2004 10:43:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: why did Baha'u'llah not speakwith Browne in English, it is because he didn't know English. Does this make senseif He is omniscient at will? I think it does because I can argue that he did not will to know English. I don't think he likes playing magician! Dear John, I think He made that pretty clear, that the Cause of God was not a sideshow. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/29/2004 11:03:09 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I take Their statements literally unless thye violate natural law. The existence of a human who inspired the stories about Abraham does not require violation of physical laws of the universe, it is , in other words, credible, even when understood literally. Dear Ron, The existence of a man who inspired such stories would certainly not violate the physical laws of the universe but wouldn't it take supernatural knowledge to know if someone actually lived nearly four thousand years ago when we have no records from that time telling us of them? And it sounds like anything supernaturalis considered by you to be a violation of the physical laws of the universe. Otherwise there would be no reason to object to the notion of omniscience. But by the way, what physical law of the universal does omniscience and infallibility actually violate? "As usual, there is the question of waht does "omniscient at will" mean?" Yes, and that is the real question you ought to be raising. "I apply to the this statement of the Guardian's secretary the standard raised by Baha'u'llah when assessing the Books of previous Manifestations: is it credible literally, or does it require spiritual interpretation to make it credible?" I wasn't aware that was the standard He used. There are times when He discounts an interpretation because it is logically absurd, but that I don't think He suggests that statements of scripture as a wholebe understood literally or not on the basis of the criteria you state. Perhaps you have a specific passage in mind? In any case, the standard I tend to use in interpreting such statements is whether or not it fits the context. Otherwise I tend to leave 'spiritualized' interpretations which go far beyond the context, to the Manifestation Himself or to authorized interpreters. " is the Guardian's secretary now a higher authority than the text of teh Quran to which Baha'u'llah applied this standard in teh IqaN? You begin to see how our literal understanding of Infallibility begins to cause absurdities, (as secretary with more Authority than than Muhammad and Baha'u'llah combined)." The Guardian's secretary has no authority whatsoever. It is the Guardian which has authority and tells his secretaries what to write. And yes, ultimately it is the authoritative interpretations of the Guardian which determine Baha'u'llah's intention. "What are these miracles "associated: with Baha'u'llah? How are they associated?" You will find lots of them mentioned by those around Him. "Did Baha'u'llah record them Himself?" Nope. He didn't consider them worthy of mention. But He never denied He performed them. "But the miracles I believe in are spiritual, not violations of natural physical law.God is a law maker, not a law breaker." I tend to think that natural law is nothing more than the way God customarily does things. "I agree, Their Divine Nature is completely real, but spiritual, not physical. Their physical natures were human. You do in spiritual realities, do you not?" Yep. I just don't regard them as symbolic. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
As we strive to grasp the meaning of omniscience at will, I personally think that the starting point is that this is manifestly beyond our ability to grasp. As in one of the quotes from the Master from SAQ, He states that there are matters beyond the capacity of man to know. So symbols are used. When the Manifestation states that He was asleep and then He awoke, it is my understanding that this does not refer to when He becomes aware that He is a Manifestation. It is the time when He begins His role as the Manifestation. As to the matter of omniscience at will, and what it means, I think Baha'u'llah refers to it in the Tablet of Wisdom: ...whenever We desire to quote the sayings of the learned and of the wise, presently there will appear before the face of thy Lord in the form of a tablet all that which hath appeared in the world... (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 149) So at will is reflected in His words, Whenever We desire. Occam's razor is tripping you up, Ron, instead of being helpful. As with all other human means of knowing truth, at best it operates as a gross sieve. It screens out the big errors. But it can't lead to knowledge of the truth. It is a tool, but if over-used, it becomes a hindrance. The way to know the truth of the Manifestation, is to follow His guidance. I would say, in particular, the Iqan. And as to all else, it should be subordinated, in accordance with the verse in the Hidden Words, Blind thine eyes, to all save My beauty; stop thine ears, to all save My Word. This clears the air so one can follow the Manifestation's guidance, and then see clearly with one's own eyes. Just my views. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
At 11:47 AM -0500 12/29/04, Ron Stephens wrote: So this is an example of a statement in the Writings -- the statement that the Manifestation was asleep on His couch and the breezes of God awoke Him -- that should be understood symbolically. My reply: Yes, the Manifestation's essence is the same for all eternity, backwards and forwards. But, They are asleep until They are apprised of their Mission at a specific point in their adult lives. So They did not consciously know about it until then, isn't that what these passages are saying? Not necessarily. I see the situation as being like the difference a president and president-elect. When one is the president-elect, they know that at a certain point they will become president and have the powers associated with that office. To me, the experience of the Maiden was Baha'u'llah's swearing in ceremony. Don C He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Occam's razor is tripping you up, Ron, instead of being helpful. As with all other human means of knowing truth, at best it operates as a gross sieve. I might add that William of Occam himself insisted that this 'razor' could only be used in regards to temporal, not supernatural knowledge. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
It is my understanding that there was no Maiden. Shoghi Effendi writes of Baha'u'llah's vision of the Maiden in the Siyah-Chal that the Maiden, and all the other images used for the earlier Manifestations of God, were symbols: ...at so critical an hour and under such appalling circumstances the Most Great Spirit, as designated by Himself, and symbolized in the Zoroastrian, the Mosaic, the Christian, and Muhammadan Dispensations by the Sacred Fire, the Burning Bush, the Dove and the Angel Gabriel respectively, descended upon, and revealed itself, personated by a Maiden, to the agonized soul of Bah'u'll (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 100) A symbol is used because there is no way of communicating the reality of what happened, to the human mind. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Brent, you commented earlier , I think, that the main theme you saw in teh Book of Certitude was sort of how do we recognize a Manifestation I agree that is a main theme. I think the answer is (partly) by seeing if what He says is logical, reasonable and also affirms the spiritual message of previous Manifestations. What do you and others think teh answer given in teh Iqan is to the question how should we go about recognizing a Manifestation?' Doesn't reason adn logic figure into this? How else are we to recognize a Manifestation and distinguish Them from other holy and good figures who are not manifestations? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/29/2004 4:15:09 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The same applies to Jesus, His sufferingsuffering on the Cross would be made meaningless if He knew all along He was God Baha`u'llah denies being God. Muhammed denies being God. Jesus NEVER said He was God, His words in the Gospel deny divinity. Moses denied divinity. Baha`u'llahis careful to establish that the Manifestation is not God, the Creator. I would submit that Jesus hanging on the cross suffered all the doubts of all humanity. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Still, it seems to my limited mind, that if Baha'u'llah was omniscient (even at will , whatever that means) then there woudl be no reason for Him to agonize since He wouuld know 100% for sure that He would triumph completely. Dear Ron, You are ignoring two very important points. 1) It was damn uncomfortable in the Siyal-Chal, whatever one might know about the end of it all. 2) What 'omniscient at will' implies for me is that most of the time He did *not* try to access supernatural omniscience. The same applies to Jesus, His sufferingsuffering on the Cross would be made meaningless if He knew all along He was God and etc etc etc. Really? That is a bit like saying no one would mind getting their hand cut off so long as they knew someone could sew it back on. No, thank you! warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
As to the ways Baha'u'llah aids us in the Iqan to recognize the Manifestation, and whether logic is involved. In my personal view, one needs to approach the Iqan without preconceptions as to what Baha'u'llah will offer as proofs. Instead, to see what He actually presents as proofs and arguments. There are many such ways He presents of recognizing the Manifestation, or tools to recognize Him: p. 6 Observe the character of the denials of those who oppose the Manifestation, this will increase our faith p. 13 the prophecies of the former Manifestations foretelling one another p. 14 Sanctifying our eyes, ears and hearts from whatever they have seen, heard and felt p. 17 reading the authorized interpreters views of the Word of God p 28 Listening with a humble mind to the Prophets' explanations of the Holy Books p 42 understanding the symbolic meanings of the terms darkening of the sun and the moon, to see that the prophecies of the New Manifestation have been fulfilled p. 49 observing that the Manifestation removes the veils of mystery from the words of God p 52 pondering the Word of God p 53 meditating on the lives of the Prophets p 58 evaluating the claims of the Prophets with fairmindedness and justice p 66 signs in the visible sky 72 overcoming the clouds which block the vision, including the appearance of the Manifestations with human limitations 73 overcoming the objection that the Manifestations change the divine laws in every age 75 Recognizing the Manifestation by His own self 79 Realizing that those who have cleansed themselves of all human traits and limitations and adorned themselves with the divine qualities are a means by which truth is recognized and established 82-83 realizing that leaders of religion are not good guides to recognition of the new Manifestation due to their literal interpretation of the divine verses according to their own limited understanding p 110 the spiritual sovereignty each Manifestation demonstrates is a sign of His Prophethood 112 observing the binding force that unites the followers of the Manifestation, and the dividing power that separates His opponents 120 possessing a pure heart 134 realizing that the Manifestation has the power to forgive sins 146 seeing that the learned have fallen and the ignorant have been raised up 147-148 reading the Qur'an to see what prevented the people from recognizing the Prophet Muhammad, and comparing those things to this Day, and what prevents the people from recognizing the Bab 156-7 observing the transforming impact of the Revelation on people's lives 160 observing that just as the companions of the Prophet Muhammad were willing to lay down their lives at His feet, the followers of the Bab were willing to do the same 162-171 not being prevented from recognizing the Manifestation by such terms as first, last, and seal. 164-5 seeing with one's own eyes instead of through the eyes of the clergy 174 ponder the verses of the Holy Books with no desire other than to please God 177-182 recognizing the Manifestation, whatever titles He claims, whether Prophet, Messenger, Servant, Guardian, or Divinity. 187-190 being cleansed from the obscure knowledge that pretenders to knowledge claim 191-199 studying the Word of God with the qualities of a true seeker and not with human learning 194 not being afraid of criticism 195 searching with passion 201-220 studing the Book of God 222-223 realizing that although generally only the weak and unassuming recognize the new Manifestation at first, in the Dispensation of the Bab some of the greatest scholars recognized Him and sacrificed their lives for Him 224-228 realizing that the deeds of those who wish for death in the path of the Manifestation are guides to the Truth 230-234 The constancy of the Bab, His steadfastness in the face of universal opprobrium, that he was afraid of no one, is a sure sign 235-236 the patience of the followers of the Bab, their purity of heart in the face of such opposition 237-end the Muslim Hadith/ Traditions foretelling the New Law, the New Revelation, and the year of the Bab's appearance Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Is it really that cut and dry? For instance, is the Maiden only a symbol given to us, or was it also a symbol experienced by Baha'u'llah? With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Yes, it seems to me there is usually more than one perspective available form the Writings on a given topic. I like that. for instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind, i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet but He chose that phrase and image to try to communicate His reality to us. On Dec 29, 2004, at 9:33 PM, Firouz Anaraki wrote: I think what Baha'u'llah means in the Lawh-i Hikmat, it clearly is not that he just had to close his eyes and He could see or read what He wanted to know. Baha'u'llah states in the Kitab-i-Iqan: ... a certain man, [Haji Mirza Karim Khan] reputed for his learning and attainments, ... hath in his book denounced and vilified all the exponents of true learning. As We had frequently heard about him, We purposed to read some of his works. Although We never felt disposed to peruse other peoples' writings, yet as some had questioned Us concerning him, We felt it necessary to refer to his books, in order that We might answer Our questioners with knowledge and understanding. His works, in the Arabic tongue, were, however, not available, until one day a certain man informed Us that one of his compositions, entitled Irshadu'l-'Avam, (Guidance unto the ignorant.) could be found in this city. ... We sent for the book, and kept it with Us a few days. It was probably referred to twice. The second time, We accidentally came upon the story of the Mi'raj of Muhammad, Kitab-i Iqan, 184-6 Baha'u'llah had to wait until he had read the book before he felt able to speak of it with knowledge and understanding. He had a collection of books, and kept some of them. In studying the Writings, we should not take a single verse on its own, but rather take a wide selection of the writings. Baha'u'llah acknowledges having normal human limitations. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Yes, it seems to me there is usually more than one perspective available form the Writings on a given topic. I like that. for instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind, i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet but He chose that phrase and image to try to communicate His reality to us. Which is what, Ron? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
On Dec 29, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: Yes, it seems to me there is usually more than one perspective available form the Writings on a given topic. I like that. for instance, the famous passage where Baha'u'llah sees tablet in His mind, i do not think He actually 'sees a Tablet but He chose that phrase and image to try to communicate His reality to us. Which is what, Ron? Susan, I have no idea. My point is, I think Baha'u'llah chose to express His reality, of how He received inspiration not available o teh rest of us, using the best symbolic image he could think of. Which was teh tablet that I have heard you and others refer to so often on this list. So, of course I think the tablet is an accurate description, in fact it is no doubt better than nay other imagery possible, or else Baha'u'llah would not have chosen it,. But i dot thin for one moment that what I see in my mind, called up by teh tablet imagery, is anything like the True Reality of what Baha'u'llah actually experienced. Do you see what I mean? I'm no trying to be cute or obscure here at all. Do you think I'm off -bas eon this, too? Thanks for being patient with me. I know that, as you say, I amy not be well liked or generating much sympathy by my posting style. I Guess I'm not exactly trying to elicit sympathy, but rather I do value the honest feedback i am getting on this list, which I can get no where else on these kinds of issues. Love and peace always, ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. Dear Ron, I was very young when I became a Baha'i. When I read Release the Sun and compared it with the Gospels it seemed to me that it was the same story. I couldn't accept one and reject the other. Either both were true or both were false. In that sense, I think we were coming from very different places. You were reacting against your fundamentalist upbringing and accepted the Faith because you thought it was not like the kind of Christianity you were raised with. I became a Baha'i because it *was* the same as Christianity in my eyes. Mind you, I was raised liberal Christian. "How can you be certain. Do you ever have doubts." Yep. Do you remember the posting I made about doubt nearly seven years ago? Here is the URL: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m9.html There is a short book by afamous Christian theologian by the name of Paul Tillich entitled *The Dynamics of Faith*. He argues that doubt is an integral part of faith. You might take a look at it sometime. "We are led to expect a Baha'i World Order (and most Baha'is I know expect it real soon now.)" Really? I don't know any Baha'is who expect the Baha'i World Order anytime soon. I remember some that were like that in my youth, however. I mentioned to my friend that I had recently returned form a business trip to India, adn that i had the opportunity visit the Lotus Baha'i Center in New Delhi. I found it most beautiful and peaceful. His eyes lit up and he said he had hear that more people visit the New Delhi House of Worship than visit the Taj Mahal. "Dr. Maneck, I know you have a history in India and you have mentioned the fantastic success in growing the Faith in India many years ago Is there any evidence that the Baha'i community is growing still in India?" Well, I know last year there were some 1700 declarations in a single cluster of which over a third had completed Book One of Ruhi. Getting growth has never been a problem. Sustaining a vibrant community, as you mention, something else entirely. I can assure you that in the previous mass enrollments they never would have gotten over a third of the enrollees do anything like this together, so this is really quite promising. I'm going to post a newsletter up about this in a minute if I can. If I can't, I'll send it to you privately. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ron Stephens Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 10:57 PM To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters but He chose that phrase and image to try to communicate His reality to us. Which is what, Ron? Susan, I have no idea. Dear Ron, Then I guess He didn't do a particularly good job of communicating that reality to us.;-} I really don't know whether to take that passage from the Lawh-i Hikmat literally or not. It strikes me as rather specific to be simply symbolic, but it certainly seems more plausible that Baha'u'llah had a supernatural way of reading those books than He had a supernatural knowledge of Socrates acquitance with the Jewish Prophets. Yet, as Firouz points out, most of the time Baha'u'llah read books the same way you and I do. When push comes to shove, though, revelation itself is something beyond natural law so if you confine what God can do to that, I think revealed religion itself goes out the window. Thanks for being patient with me. I know that, as you say, I amy not be well liked or generating much sympathy by my posting style. I'm afraid I've not been as patient as I could be. I get annoyed with two things you sometimes do. One is refuse to give others the same level of tolerance you want for yourself. The other is making assumptions about what others positions are. I can relate to your wanting a community of like-minded people. I'd like that too. You can get that in Protestant Christianity inasmuch as those Christians who think alike form separate denominations. We don't have that option in the Baha'i Faith. We have to learn to get along with those who *don't* think like we do. My own issues are slightly different from yours. You want a religion which consistently abides by your conceptions of science and reason. I'm not terribly concerned with that. What I *am* concerned is that religion not interfere in scientific and scholarly investigation in the name of some preconcieved orthodoxy. These issues may appear similiar but in practice they are quite different. For instance, you read a sacred text and try to make it 'fit' your understanding in terms of science and reason. When I read a sacred text, I set that aside and try to determine what Baha'u'llah was saying in the context of His time and place. To do otherwise would be to violate basic historical method. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at Will, and other similar concepts that I have difficulty with. I would sincerely like to better understand how you maintain these beliefs and incorporate them into a consistent world view. I hope you, and Brent Poirier and others on this list, can find time to comment on a few questions that I run into when I try to think through the consequences of such beliefs. 1. What languages did the Central Figures speak and write and understand? For instance, I know that the Guardian translated some Writings of the earlier Central Figures into English; so I suppose He spoke English as well as Persian, Arabic, and possibly other languages that he learned at Cambridge? What languages were spoken by Abdul Baha, and what language were his books written in? Did He speak any English? Did He use any interpreters in His travels? Did Bahaullah speak any English or any language bedsides Persian and Arabic? Did the Bab speak Persian and Arabic, or any others? 2. The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of several Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are inconsistent with an understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and Omnipotent at Will. For instance, Muhammad was very careful to make sure that He was seen as a human being, not God. He is even said to have been illiterate. Abraham had doubts. How else could His faith have any meaning? Surely someone Omniscient at Will could not have had doubts. In fact, Omniscience at will and Omnipotence at will, seem to me to make a mockery of the lives and struggles of all of the Prophets and Manifestations. If Abraham were Omniscient, He knew he would find a scapegoat and would not have to sacrifice His son. Truly I find this to rule out the real meaning of all Their lives, if they were Omniscient. Why did Bahaullah need to have a Maiden appear in the Prison to announce His mission if He already knew about it at birth? Did He as an enfant only pretend to at first be unable to talk, and then to learn how? This seems beneath all dignity to me. The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in their adulthood. 3. Since it seems to me that the Bahai Faith is very unlikely to be able to grow enough to have any major impact any time soon, it seems that 1000 years is a short time. I do not think the Great Peace can come about in 1000 years. Is it therefore possible that the 1000 year Bahai period will be the beginning only, and that the full fulfillment will not occur until many Manifestations later; all in sort of the Cycle of Fulfillment as Brent Poirier mentioned recently, but not within 1000 years; maybe 10,000 years or even 100,000? If a future Manifestation points out that some things Baha'is take literally should really only be understood symbolically (in other words, precisely as Baha'u'llah did in the Kitab i Iqan with respect to Christianity), then why should we condemn such understangings by current day people? Was a Christian who understood the Resurection of Christ to be symbolic wrong and apostate until 1844 (and also the second coming)? Is a Baha'i who believes that Infallibillity is symbolic, wrong and an apostate? How can you be so sure a future Manifestation won't make that precise point? 4. Does Omniscience include the ability to know all about the future, as well as the present and the past? It seems to, since you believe in literal prophecies? How do you reconcile belief in Omniscience and Omnipotence (at will or otherwise) with the real world in a logically consistent manner? This completely baffles me. You must compartmentalize your mind and have one rational side to deal with the real, everyday world, and one irrational side to believe in Omniscience and other ideas. Pardon me for adding this paragraph, but this is the conclusion that I always come to when I try to accept Omniscience, Omnipotence and literal Infallibility. Since every Manifestation acted consistently with natural law, and acted as if They were not omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they were Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived their lives acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid Joke pretending to be human in the real world when in reality They were Magicians above it all. Please dont just read this and respond only to my personal conclusions in the last paragraph, but rather I am really really interested in how you answer and think about the specific questions I ask in the paragraphs above. Ron Stephens __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
I'll attempt to answer some of these (leaving opinion out of my reply til Susan makes comment) 1. The Bab and Baha`u'llah spoke Persian on a day-to-day basis. Neither one was particularly trained in Arabic though both showed a remarkable facility for their use of Arabic. Training young men in Arabic in those days (in Persian speaking countries - Farsi was widely spoken as a lignua franca in several dialects), was rather cursory - kind of like training young Jews to read enough Hebrew for their Bar Mitzvah's. One was supposed to be able to read the Qur'an, but training was perfunctory, especially for Baha`u'llah who was brought up as a noble where reading and writing were secondary to the ability to ride a horse and use a sword. The Bab was a merchant and had equally perfunctory training in Arabic. The Bab created a very impressive linguistic style in Arabic, many found it hard to read, but many others found it fluent and beautiful. Baha`u'llah was favorably compared to many Arabic and Persian poets. 2) Abdu'l Baha spoke Arabic, Persian and Turkic with fluency. His world travels must have taught him some smatterings of English and French, but he always used interpreters in his discourse with westerners. Shoghi Effendi was trained in Arabic and Persian, Turkic, English and French, attending western schools in the Holy Land and eventually attending the best universities in England. As to his command of English, I have seen a course sylabus for teaching English literature written by non-Native speakers and Shoghi Effendi is used as a prime fine example of non-fiction and philosophy written in English by a non-native speaker and uses Joseph Conrad (a Pole) as its best example in the writing of fiction. Some find Shoghi Effendi's writings in English to be very complex, but it is hard to fault his use of the language by style and grammar usage of his time. 3) The Maiden is a symbol of Revelation for Baha`u'llah. The Bab saw the severed head of Husayn speak. Muhammed was visited by Gabriel. A dove appeared to symbolized divine Revelation for Jesus. Moses heard the burning bush speak. Are these actual physical apparitions? I doubt it. They are apparitions of the Will of God making itself physically manifest to the Manifestations. 4) I think prophecies are to be viewed on several levels simultaneously. To think of prophecies only on the concrete level is to limit one's understanding. Literalists of whatever sort are only trying to understand a small part of the Message of the Messengers. This is true whether studying the prophecies of Christ or the prophecies of Baha`u'llah. 5) The Manifestations are privy to the Will of God and His Omniscience, each and every One of them equally. However, part of Their obedience to the Will of God is that They revealed only what God bid Them reveal. Jesus was speaking the literal truth when He said: "I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now." Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
At 11:02 AM -0800 12/28/04, Ronald Stephens wrote: 1. What languages did the Central Figures speak and write and understand? For instance, I know that the Guardian translated some Writings of the earlier Central Figures into English; so I suppose He spoke English as well as Persian, Arabic, and possibly other languages that he learned at Cambridge? As Susan has noted, Shoghi Effendi was fluent in French, even considering it better than his English. According to Ruhiyyih Khanum, he also spoke good German. When they went to Switzerland, she has said he often visited in German with visitors in the hotel they stayed at. Tho' they travelled in Italian speaking Switzerland, I have never seen or heard of him speaking Italian. What languages were spoken by Abdul Baha, and what language were his books written in? Did He speak any English? Did He use any interpreters in His travels? He corresponded in Turkish with members of the constitutional movement in Turkey, so Turkish is a language of Revelation. Very little of this has even provisional translations. He apparently could speak *some* English, but rarely if ever publicly. I have heard several references to His having made short comments in English to Americans. Also there is some evidence He discussed translations of His talks with translators, such that they appear to have changed the English wording slightly. At 2:32 PM -0500 12/28/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shoghi Effendi was trained in Arabic and Persian, Turkic, English and French, attending western schools in the Holy Land and eventually attending the best universities in England. I had not heard of Shoghi Effendi speaking or writing in Turkic. Do you have a reference? Don C He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
At 2:58 PM -0500 12/28/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:52:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I had not heard of Shoghi Effendi speaking or writing in Turkic. Do you have a reference? It was the official language of the Ottoman occupiers of the Holy Land, and the jailers of Abdu'l Baha. I assume he had some fluency as did his parents and grandparents. I would assume he had some knowledge of Turkic, but I think fluency is going too far. Given that he had some degree of fluency in German, so far as I know he never corresponded in German with the German Baha'i community. I would not be surprised if Baha'u'llah knew some Turkic also, but He never wrote, so far as I know, in Turkic. Rather I think all His own tablets were written in Persian. Don C He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:03:04 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at Will, and other similar concepts that I have difficulty with. I would sincerely like to better understand how you maintain these beliefs and incorporate them into a consistent world view. I hope you, and Brent Poirier and others on this list, can find time to comment on a few questions that I run into when I try to think through the consequences of such beliefs. Dear Ron, Before we start, let's keep a couple of things clear. As I understand it the term 'omniscient at will' applies *only* the Manifestation. That phrase occurs only in a letter written on the Guardian's behalf wherein he insists that *unlike* the Manifestation he is not omniscient at will. I don't know of any place in the Writings where the term "Omnipotent at will" occurs but inasmuch as the Manifestation reflects all the Names and Attributes of God one could infer this. But it would be just that, an inference. I don't think I've ever talked about this myself. Furthermore, I have always argued that it appears to be the case that much of the time the Manifestation does *not* will omniscience. Others have answered your questions regarding the languages of certain figures. Just one minor correction. I didn't indicate that the Guardian's French was better than his English (although that is what he won prizes for at the Syrian Protestant College) only that this was the language in which he received his early education. And he always counted in that language. He went to Oxford, by the way, not Cambridge and he was already fluent in both English and French before he went there. "The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of several Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are inconsistent with an understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and Omnipotent at Will. For instance, Muhammad was very careful to make sure that He was seen as a human being, not God. He is even said to have been illiterate." Baha'u'llah sometimes referred to Himself as illiterate as well. ;-} And yes, all Manifestations have attested to their humanity. As for Abraham, I think historically speaking it is difficult to say anything at all about Abraham. We can't even say for sure that He existed. Stories are told about Him in both the Bible and the Qur'an to make specific points, but I wouldn't use them to speculate regarding His existential state. "Why did Bahaullah need to have a Maiden appear in the Prison to announce His mission if He already knew about it at birth? Did He as an enfant only pretend to at first be unable to talk, and then to learn how? This seems beneath all dignity to me." I believe the Heavenly Maiden is the Divine Nature of Baha'u'llah Himself. "The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in their adulthood." I expect that on some level that is true. I think what you are missing in this whole discussion is the understanding that Manifestations have *both* a human and a divine nature. "Since it seems to me that the Bahai Faith is very unlikely to be able to grow enough to have any major impact any time soon, it seems that 1000 years is a short time. I do not think the Great Peace can come about in 1000 years." I'm not as pessimistic as you are about the Baha'i Faith's ability to grow enough to have a major impact soon. I think we will see tremendous growth within the next forty years. But I also think it is quite possible that the Most Great Peace will not come within this 1000 Dispensation. "If a future Manifestation points out that some things Baha'is take literally should really only be understood symbolically (in other words, precisely as Baha'u'llah did in the Kitab i Iqan with respect to Christianity), then why should we condemn such understangings by current day people?" That is a very speculative question which is impossible to answer. You presume that the things that Manifestation will see as symbolic and not literal are the same things you would like to understand symbolically and not literally. You are also assuming we are taking things literally, which may not at all be the case. I don't think future Manifestations are going to contradict the authoritative interpretations of the Guardian or Abdu'l-Baha and those are the *only* interpretations Baha'is are bound to accept. "Was a Christian who understood the Resurection of Christ to be symbolic wrong and apostate until 1844 (and also the second coming)?" Actually most Christians who saw the Resurrection of Christ as symbolic in antiquity were heretics mostly because they denied Jesus had a physical body to begin with. "Is a Baha'i who
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:59:56 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It was the official language of the Ottoman occupiers of the Holy Land, and the "jailers" of Abdu'l Baha.I assume he had some fluency as did his parents and grandparents. Dear Scott, Abdu'l-Baha did sometimes write in Ottoman Turkish but I don't know that Shoghi Effendi knew it. Keep in mind that the Guardian was educated first in Catholic and then in American Presbyterian schools. These schools emphasized Arabic literature, but not Turkish. It is hard to say, though, inasmuch as Ottoman Turkish was no longer being used by the time Shoghi Effendi became Guardian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Thank you very much for informing me about what languages the Central Figures understood and knew, in the real world. it is very helpful to me, because I did not know. On Dec 28, 2004, at 2:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll attempt to answer some of these (leaving opinion out of my reply til Susan makes comment) 1. The Bab and Baha`u'llah spoke Persian on a day-to-day basis. Neither one was particularly trained in Arabic though both showed a remarkable facility for their use of Arabic. Training young men in Arabic in those days (in Persian speaking countries - Farsi was widely spoken as a lignua franca in several dialects), was rather cursory - kind of like training young Jews to read enough Hebrew for their Bar Mitzvah's. One was supposed to be able to read the Qur'an, but training was perfunctory, especially for Baha`u'llah who was brought up as a noble where reading and writing were secondary to the ability to ride a horse and use a sword. The Bab was a merchant and had equally perfunctory training in Arabic. The Bab created a very impressive linguistic style in Arabic, many found it hard to read, but many others found it fluent and beautiful. Baha`u'llah was favorably compared to many Arabic and Persian poets. 2) Abdu'l Baha spoke Arabic, Persian and Turkic with fluency. His world travels must have taught him some smatterings of English and French, but he always used interpreters in his discourse with westerners. Shoghi Effendi was trained in Arabic and Persian, Turkic, English and French, attending western schools in the Holy Land and eventually attending the best universities in England. As to his command of English, I have seen a course sylabus for teaching English literature written by non-Native speakers and Shoghi Effendi is used as a prime fine example of non-fiction and philosophy written in English by a non-native speaker and uses Joseph Conrad (a Pole) as its best example in the writing of fiction. Some find Shoghi Effendi's writings in English to be very complex, but it is hard to fault his use of the language by style and grammar usage of his time. 3) The Maiden is a symbol of Revelation for Baha`u'llah. The Bab saw the severed head of Husayn speak. Muhammed was visited by Gabriel. A dove appeared to symbolized divine Revelation for Jesus. Moses heard the burning bush speak. Are these actual physical apparitions? I doubt it. They are apparitions of the Will of God making itself physically manifest to the Manifestations. 4) I think prophecies are to be viewed on several levels simultaneously. To think of prophecies only on the concrete level is to limit one's understanding. Literalists of whatever sort are only trying to understand a small part of the Message of the Messengers. This is true whether studying the prophecies of Christ or the prophecies of Baha`u'llah. 5) The Manifestations are privy to the Will of God and His Omniscience, each and every One of them equally. However, part of Their obedience to the Will of God is that They revealed only what God bid Them reveal. Jesus was speaking the literal truth when He said: I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Ronald, Thanks for there questions. I have thought about many of these myself ! Ronald Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at Will, and other similar concepts that I have difficulty with. I would sincerely like to better understand how you maintain these beliefs and incorporate them into a consistent world view. I hope you, and Brent Poirier and others on this list, can find time to comment on a few questions that I run into when I try to think through the consequences of such beliefs.1. What languages did the Central Figures speak and write and understand? For instance, I know that the Guardian translated some Writings of the earlier Central Figures into English; so I suppose He spoke English as well as Persian, Arabic, and possibly other languages that he learned at Cambridge?What languages were spoken by Abdul Baha, and what lan! guage were his books written in? Did He speak any English? Did He use any interpreters in His travels? Did Bahaullah speak any English or any language bedsides Persian and Arabic? Did the Bab speak Persian and Arabic, or any others? 2. The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of several Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are inconsistent with an understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and Omnipotent at Will. For instance, Muhammad was very careful to make sure that He was seen as a human being, not God. He is even said to have been illiterate. Abraham had doubts. How else could His faith have any meaning? Surely someone Omniscient at Will could not have had doubts. In fact, Omniscience at will and Omnipotence at will, seem to me to make a mockery of the lives and struggles of all of the Prophets and Manifestations. If Abraham were Omniscient, He knew he would find a scapegoat and would not have to sacrifice Hi! s son. Truly I find this to rule out the real meaning of all Their lives, if they were Omniscient.Why did Bahaullah need to have a Maiden appear in the Prison to announce His mission if He already knew about it at birth? Did He as an enfant only pretend to at first be unable to talk, and then to learn how? This seems beneath all dignity to me.The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in their adulthood. 3. Since it seems to me that the Bahai Faith is very unlikely to be able to grow enough to have any major impact any time soon, it seems that 1000 years is a short time. I do not think the Great Peace can come about in 1000 years. Is it therefore possible that the 1000 year Bahai period will be the beginning only, and that the full fulfillment will not occur until many Manifestations later; all in sort of the Cycle of Fulfillment as Brent Poirier mentioned recent! ly, but not within 1000 years; maybe 10,000 years or even 100,000?If a future Manifestation points out that some things Baha'is take literally should really only be understood symbolically (in other words, precisely as Baha'u'llah did in the Kitab i Iqan with respect to Christianity), then why should we condemn such understangings by current day people? Was a Christian who understood the Resurection of Christ to be symbolic wrong and apostate until 1844 (and also the second coming)? Is a Baha'i who believes that Infallibillity is symbolic, wrong and an apostate? How can you be so sure a future Manifestation won't make that precise point?4. Does Omniscience include the ability to know all about the future, as well as the present and the past? It seems to, since you believe in literal prophecies? How do you reconcile belief in Omniscience and Omnipotence (at will or otherwise) with the real world in a logically consistent manner? This completely baffles me. Yo! u must compartmentalize your mind and have one rational side to deal with the real, everyday world, and one irrational side to believe in Omniscience and other ideas. Pardon me for adding this paragraph, but this is the conclusion that I always come to when I try to accept Omniscience, Omnipotence and literal Infallibility. Since every Manifestation acted consistently with natural law, and acted as if They were not omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they were Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived their lives acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid Joke pretending to be human in the real world when in reality They were Magicians above it all. Please dont just read this and respond only to my personal conclusions in the last paragraph, but rather I am really really interested in how you answer and think about the specific questions I ask in the paragraphs above.Ron Stephens__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Dr. Susan Maneck wrote, and I respond below: Dear Ron, Before we start, let's keep a couple of things clear. As I understand it the term 'omniscient at will' applies *only* the Manifestation. That phrase occurs only in a letter written on the Guardian's behalf wherein he insists that *unlike* the Manifestation he is not omniscient at will. I don't know of any place in the Writings where the term Omnipotent at will occurs but inasmuch as the Manifestation reflects all the Names and Attributes of God one could infer this. But it would be just that, an inference. I don't think I've ever talked about this myself. Furthermore, I have always argued that it appears to be the case that much of the time the Manifestation does *not* will omniscience. My reply: But Baha'is almost all the time assume that the Central Figures were omniscient at will. Also, how can an Interpreter interpret something said by Baha'u'llah, if Baha'u'llah was Omniscient and the Interpreter isn't? Isn't that backwards? What happens is, we then sometimes can and do safely disregard what Baha'u'llah actually said. For instance, if Abdul Baha said something that can be construed to deny the validity of evolution, then Baha'u'llah's statement that true religion must agree with science, is made null and void. We also completely ignore and disregard Baha'u'llah's explicit distinction between the Most Great Infallibility and other infallibility. (It must mean something! else why put it in our Most Holy Book?) Baha'u'llah's plain and explicit declaration that no one (that includes all other Central Figures and the Universal House of Justice, does it not) shares with Him in the Most Great Infallibility. Others have answered your questions regarding the languages of certain figures. Just one minor correction. I didn't indicate that the Guardian's French was better than his English (although that is what he won prizes for at the Syrian Protestant College) only that this was the language in which he received his early education. And he always counted in that language. He went to Oxford, by the way, not Cambridge and he was already fluent in both English and French before he went there. My reply: Yes, thanks to Scott for answering those questions. The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of several Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are inconsistent with an understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and Omnipotent at Will. For instance, Muhammad was very careful to make sure that He was seen as a human being, not God. He is even said to have been illiterate. Baha'u'llah sometimes referred to Himself as illiterate as well. ;-} And yes, all Manifestations have attested to their humanity. As for Abraham, I think historically speaking it is difficult to say anything at all about Abraham. We can't even say for sure that He existed. Stories are told about Him in both the Bible and the Qur'an to make specific points, but I wouldn't use them to speculate regarding His existential state. My reply: I assume Abraham actually existed. Of course there is no objective proof for this, but I take the Manifestations' Word for this and the Holy Scriptures and Writings word for it. Why strain at a gnat and swallow a camel? This drives me crazy when you do it, often, Dr. Maneck. You accept wildly improbable notions like Omniscience at Will (even if only for the Manifestation) and the violation of physical laws (!!!), but you question the existence of Abraham. Why did Bahaullah need to have a Maiden appear in the Prison to announce His mission if He already knew about it at birth? Did He as an enfant only pretend to at first be unable to talk, and then to learn how? This seems beneath all dignity to me. I believe the Heavenly Maiden is the Divine Nature of Baha'u'llah Himself. My reply: Fair enough, but Still why any announcement at all if He already knew it? Did He keep Himself in the dark (at Will, so to speak)? This seems crazy to me. Isn't it infinitely more likely that He did not *know* in advance, because He had no way of knowing until God announced it to Him, just like Abram, Moses, and Muhammad? (yes and certainly Jesus too but I know of no scriptural evidence in His case). Isn't this the essence of Occam's Razor? The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in their adulthood. I expect that on some level that is true. I think what you are missing in this whole discussion is the understanding that Manifestations have *both* a human and a divine nature. My reply: No, I understand that symbolically. I may not be able to describe it for you in words, better than it is already described by Baha'u'llah and Jesus Themselves. But I think you and many Baha'is do away 1005 with the human nature of Baha'u'llah and make him only a God, capable of anything and everything
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Dear Ron, you wrote: Since every Manifestation acted consistently with natural law, and acted as if They were not omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they were Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived their lives acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid Joke pretending to be human in the real world when in reality They were Magicians above it all. To my way of thinking to deny the Power of God to express His Will through a human Mouthpiece, as were all His Manifestations, is to deny all Creation. Quaff ye in My name, despite them that have disbelieved in *God, the Lord of Revelation*... ... How great is their blessedness that they have attained unto *what their Lord, the Omniscient, the All-Wise, hath willed*. (Shoghi Effendi, [quoting Baha'u'llah] The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 76) Humility and human weakness in the Manifestations are further evidences of the compelling power of the Lord, God's Omnipotence. I am he, O my Lord, that hath confessed to Thee the multitude of his evil doings, that hath acknowledged what no man hath acknowledged. I have made haste to attain unto the ocean of Thy forgiveness, and have sought shelter beneath the shadow of Thy most gracious favor. Grant, I beseech Thee, O Thou Who art the Everlasting King and the Sovereign Protector of all men, that I may be enabled to manifest that which shall cause the hearts and souls of men to soar in the limitless immensity of Thy love, and to commune with Thy Spirit. Strengthen me through the power of Thy sovereignty, that I may turn all created things towards the Day Spring of Thy Manifestation and the Source of Thy Revelation. Aid me, O my Lord, to surrender myself wholly to Thy Will, and to arise and serve Thee, for I cherish this earthly life for no other purpose than to compass the Tabernacle of Thy Revelation and the Seat of Thy Glory. Thou seest me, O my God, detached from all else but Thee, and humble and subservient to Thy Will. Deal with me as it beseemeth Thee, and as it befitteth Thy highness and great glory. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 311) Omniscient at will.. Whose will? Baha'u'llah prayed: Aid me, O my Lord, to surrender myself wholly to Thy Will. The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God's most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes. If any be set up by His side as peers, if they be regarded as identical with His Person, how can it, then, be maintained that the Divine Being is One and Incomparable, that His Essence is indivisible and peerless? Meditate on that which We have, through the power of truth, revealed unto thee, and be thou of them that comprehend its meaning. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 69) Consider, therefore, how the generality of mankind, whatever their beliefs or theories, have recognized the excellence, and admitted the superiority, of these Prophets of God. These Gems of Detachment are acclaimed by some as the embodiments of wisdom, while others believe them to be the *mouthpiece of God Himself*. How could such Souls have consented to surrender themselves unto their enemies if they believed all the worlds of God to have been reduced to this earthly life? Would they have willingly suffered such afflictions and torments as no man hath ever experienced or witnessed? (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 158) LXXIV. Every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God is endowed with such potency as can instill new life into every human frame, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth. All the wondrous works ye behold in this world have been manifested through the operation of His supreme and most exalted Will, His wondrous and inflexible Purpose. Through the mere revelation of the word Fashioner, issuing forth from His lips and proclaiming His attribute to mankind, such power is released as can generate, through successive ages, all the manifold arts which the hands of man can produce. This, verily, is a certain truth. No sooner is this resplendent word uttered, than its animating energies, stirring within all created things, give birth to the means and instruments whereby such arts can be produced and perfected. All the wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct consequences of the Revelation of this Name. In the days to come, ye will, verily, behold things of which ye have never heard before. Thus hath it been decreed in the Tablets of God, and none can comprehend it except them whose sight is sharp. In like manner, the moment the word expressing My attribute The Omniscient issueth forth from My mouth, every created thing will, according to its capacity and limitations, be invested with the power to unfold the knowledge of the most marvelous sciences, and will be empowered to
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
My reply: But Baha'is almost all the time assume that the Central Figures were omniscient at will. Dear Ron, Again, the letter written on behalf of the Guardian applied that phrase solely to Baha'u'llah. As far as what Baha'is do 'all the time' what's that to you? Also, how can an Interpreter interpret something said by Baha'u'llah, if Baha'u'llah was Omniscient and the Interpreter isn't? Isn't that backwards? Because Baha'u'llah may be omniscient doesn't mean you have to be omniscient to understand anything He said. For instance, if Abdul Baha said something that can be construed to deny the validity of evolution, then Baha'u'llah's statement that true religion must agree with science, is made null and void. What specific statement of Baha'u'llah's did you have in mind here? Most of the statements regarding the agreement of science and religion which I am familiar with come from Abdu'l-Baha's authorized interpretation of Baha'u'llah's teachings. Throw out Abdu'l-Baha's interpretations and you will probably have to throw out this principle as well. ;-} We also completely ignore and disregard Baha'u'llah's explicit distinction between the Most Great Infallibility and other infallibility. We do? I don't. Do you? My reply: I assume Abraham actually existed. Of course there is no objective proof for this, but I take the Manifestations' Word for this You mean, Their omniscience? Why strain at a gnat and swallow a camel? This drives me crazy when you do it, often, Dr. Maneck. You accept wildly improbable notions like Omniscience at Will Apparently we have different ideas as to which are the gnats and which are the camels. I accept that the Manifestation is 'omniscient at will' because the Guardian indicated this was so. Isn't it infinitely more likely that He did not *know* in advance, because He had no way of knowing until God announced it to Him, Ron, I know nothing whatsoever about how a Manifestation receives revelation. In this case, I just take Abdu'l-Baha's word for it as Brent has quoted from Some Answered Questions. But I think you and many Baha'is do away 1005 with the human nature of Baha'u'llah and make him only a God, capable of anything and everything except being human. And I think it is rather presumptious of you to assume what I do what I say I don't do. Now, if Terry Culhane's and Mojan Momens' ideas of the Baha'i Faith leading a re-spiritualization of the planet without eliminating and destroying the older Faiths, were considered acceptable, then I could imagine a re-born and spiritualized planet in 1000 years, just barely. But that view is not in favor, is it? I don't think you've got Moojan's, Terry's or the administration's views right, frankly. But what does it matter what any of us think? What do the Writings and the authoritative interpretations have to say on the question? Why can't we join-with good thinking and intentioned Muslims (like Gliberto) and Christians and Jews and Buddhist and Hindus and build a better world without strife over theology? Did anyone say we couldn't? Tell me, Dr. Maneck, let's say even in the years between 50 AD and 550 AD, before the dawn of Islam and so still, well within the Dispensation of Christ, if a person proclaimed that they understood the Resurrection and Second Coming exactly as Baha'u'llah explained them in teh Iqan, woudl they not have been considered heretical, even though they had only orthodox beliefs otherwise? In 50 A.D I'm not sure it would have been a problem. As for 550 A.D., such a person would have been presumed to be a docetist because that was the context in which these ideas were promoted. In fact, that is the reason that Christians began to insist on the physicality of the Resurrection. Now my question is, after Baha'u'llah gave us the Iqan, should we as Baha'is behave exactly like those early Christians and consider Baha'is who take similar stands on theological questions, to be heretics? Your question is only meaningful if you first establish two things. 1) That there is indeed a correspondence between the two views of these two eras. 2) And that Baha'is are indeed 'acting like those early Christians in response to them. or should we try to be just a little more open minded about the possibilities than those early Christians? I think we are open to lots of possibilities, Ron. It strikes me that you are fixated on a single one. Susan, if asking questions and seeking to understand the truth is to raise the standard of revolt, wax stubborn and open wide the door of false interpretation [ijtihad] than I 'll just have to take my chances No, it isn't. And I'm certainly not suggesting that you are doing this. But there are others out there who are challenging the notion of infallibility *precisely* in order to do this. One has to discern motivations. I guess. Dr. Maneck, my *whole point* is, adn has always been, that one can believe in science , reason adn logic and still be a Baha'i in good
RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Turkish ceased being the official language of Palestine in 1917 when General Allenby drove the last Turkish forces out of the region. Dear Scott, After 1924 Ottoman isn't even used in Turkey. Ataturk changed the script. It seems to me that he must have had some Turkish, though I am sure it was limited. Abdu'l Baha used it to communicate with the Ottoman believers and to deal with the officials of the Empire. Yes, Abdu'l-Baha did. But given Shoghi Effendi's educational background, I'm not sure he would have. The schools he went to actively discouraged it. Keep in mind that Arab Nationalism was born at the Syrian Protestant College. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
