date:20031221

http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2003/12/21/1071941612613.html

Washington's claims that brilliant US intelligence work led to the capture
of Saddam Hussein are being challenged by reports sourced in Iraq's Kurdish
media claiming that its militia set the circumstances in which the US merely
had to go to a farm identified by the Kurds to bag the fugitive former
president.

The first media account of the December 13 arrest was aired by a
Tehran-based news agency.

American forces took Saddam into custody around 8.30pm local time, but sat
on the news until 3pm the next day.

However, in the early hours of Sunday, a Kurdish language wire service
reported explicitly: "Saddam Hussein was captured by the Patriotic Union of
Kurdistan. A special intelligence unit led by Qusrat Rasul Ali, a
high-ranking member of the PUK, found Saddam Hussein in the city of Tikrit,
his birthplace.

"Qusrat's team was accompanied by a group of US soldiers. Further details of
the capture will emerge during the day; but the global Kurdish party is
about to begin!"

The head of the PUK, Jalal Talabani, was in the Iranian capital en route to
Europe.

The Western media in Baghdad were electrified by the Iranian agency's
revelation, but as reports of the arrest built, they relied almost
exclusively on accounts from US military and intelligence organisations,
starting with the words of the US-appointed administrator of Iraq, Paul
Bremer: "Ladies and gentlemen: we got 'im".

US officials said that they had extracted the vital piece of information on
Saddam's whereabouts from one of the 20 suspects around 5.30pm on December
13 and had immediately assembled a 600-strong force to surround the farm on
which he was captured at al-Dwar, south of Tikrit.

Little attention was paid to a line in Pentagon briefings that some of the
Kurdish militia might have been in on what was described as a "joint
operation"; or to a statement by Ahmed Chalabi, head of the Iraq National
Congress, which said that Qusrat and his PUK forces had provided vital
information and more.

A Scottish newspaper, the Sunday Herald, quoted from an interview aired on
the PUK's al-Hurriyah radio station last Wednesday, in which Adil Murad, a
member of the PUK's political bureau,

said that the day before Saddam's capture he was tipped off by a PUK
general - Thamir al-Sultan - that Saddam would be arrested within the next
72 hours.

An unnamed Western intelligence source in the Middle East was quoted in the
British Sunday Express yesterday: "Saddam was not captured as a result of
any American or British intelligence. We knew that someone would eventually
take their revenge, it was just a matter of time."

There has been no American response to the Kurdish claims.

An intriguing question is why Kurdish forces were allowed to join what the
US desperately needed to present as an American intelligence success -
unless the Kurds had something vital to contribute to the operation so far
south of their usual area of activity.

A report from the PUK's northern stronghold, Suliymaniah, early last week
claimed a vital intelligence breakthrough after a telephone conversation
between Qusrat and Saddam's second wife, Samirah.



xponent

Difference Maru

rob


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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

Gary Nunn wrote:
> 
> > allergies started to clear up, and then they were almost
> > entirely gone for
> > the rest of the week.  It was like the massive allergen
> > exposure forced my
> > body to quit complaining and just get over it.
> 
> I probably read this suggestion on this list, but somewhere I read that
> if you get unprocessed honey from a local source and eat a tablespoon
> every day (or something like that) your body becomes immune to the
> pollen that was used to make the honey.
> 
> I mentioned this to a coworker and he tried it and was amazed at how
> much better his allergies were after a few weeks. I have no idea if this
> really worked or if it was simply the power of suggestion.

I've heard the same thing, and had various people swear up and down that
it worked for them.

What I want to know, though, is what do you do if your body has problems
with honey?  (I.e., it does unpleasant things to your digestive
system)

Julia
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Re: Filtering

Doug Pensinger wrote:
> 
>   Ronn! wrote:
> 
> > What does the rest of the list think?  Should we avoid environmental
> > topics entirely from now on, or what?  I sure don't to offend anyone or
> > cause anyone to leave the list.
> >
> 
> With all due respect, if we stopped talking about everything that makes
> someone upset, we may as well shut down the list because we wouldn't even
> be able to discuss the weather.

You're right.  In severe cases, weather can be upsetting, especially to
people affected, and people who are close to some of the people
affected.

Now, if we could limit it to a purely technical discussion of the
weather systems, it *might* be OK, but sooner or later, someone's going
to throw a sociopolitical statement into the discussion, and then all
hell will break loose.  That, or a thunderstorm

Julia
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Re: Notes on Uplift

2003-12-21 Thread Trent Shipley

On Sunday 2003-12-21 18:28, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> Trent Shipley wrote:
> > The first questions that come to mind are for the interval in question
> > how many O-2 habitable planets are there, how many of them are currently
> > leased for habitation, and how many uplifted main-sequence O-2 species
> > are competing for those planets.  At one point I suggested that there
> > might be 10,000 to 12,000 uplifted species, but now I think this might be
> > a bit low.
>
> I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and
> from Contacting Aliens, I estimate:
>
> * about 2 million populated planets at each time

Across how many galaxies? (Note that for the 1000KY +- Contact Galaxy 4 was 
fallow, so it doesn't matter.  The real question is whether the GIM populates 
2M planets in Galaxy 2 or throughout GIM controled space.)

> * about 10 planets per race
> * about 200,000 races

I'll take this on faith, with the qualification that 200K O-2 races is somwhat 
inconvenient for writers.

> Most of those species would be doing "nothing", except about
> * 10% being uplifted
> * 10% in the 100,000-year period of indenture
> * 10% uplifting a pre-sentient race
> * 10% being served by an indentured client
>
> Alberto Monteiro
>
> ___

Your model seems to be 
pre-uplift (stage 0)
-> uplifting client (stages 1 to 4?) 
-> indentured client (stage 5?)
Since stage has the same population, and assuming mortality is minimal, each 
stage must take the same amount of time.

My mental model is 
pre-uplift (stage 0)
-> uplifting clients, this includes indenture (stages 1-5)

The pre-uplift stage goes fast but has high "mortality" as the GUI denies 
claims or proposed projects.  It is also irrelevant.  We do not worry about 
pre-clients in this "census".

The mean term for uplift/indenture combined is 100KY

We approximate the rate of uplift as an average of 1.1 client per mature 
species. (The [fictional] real rate has to include non-reproducers and 
mortality and some growth in the number of citizen species it must be between 
1.01 and 1.2.)  Clients are not fairly distributed.

Lets assume 11% of all O-2 citizens are minors. (1% of these are going to get 
'lost')

Note this seems to imply that the mean life expectancy for an O-2 citizen race 
is about 1,000,000 years.  This is a bit short for purposes of continuity 
with the fiction.  If you want the mean life expectency between the start of 
uplift and passing-on to be 10MY then you need to divide by 10, so only 1.1% 
of all O-2 citizens would be minors.

With maximally equitble distribution about 10% of Citizens are patrons, 1% of 
the population have 2 clients.  In this sort of society you might want to 
uplift your client early to maximize your power.  This implies a species 
lifecycle of 10% minority, 10% young adult, 10% active parent with client, 
70% empty nest (except for the 10% of the population who get a second 
client).With low death rates the average client in its minority/indenture 
would have 4 ancestors in its patronymic because a citizen tends to start its 
uplift project when it is about 200KY old.

Alternatively, a most responsible citizen might uplift their client late so 
they have a lot of wisdom and technology for the project.  Then you have 10% 
minor, 60% adult, 10% parent, 20% elder.  Patronymics tend to be short.

At really low levels of equity only 1% of all species might be patrons at any 
given time and many patrons will be active uplifting clients throughout their 
careers as main sequence citizens.

If we want 1MY mean life-spans, then 11% clients and 5% patrons might provide 
for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing 
sources on the Uplift Universe.

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RE: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed


> allergies started to clear up, and then they were almost 
> entirely gone for 
> the rest of the week.  It was like the massive allergen 
> exposure forced my 
> body to quit complaining and just get over it.


I probably read this suggestion on this list, but somewhere I read that
if you get unprocessed honey from a local source and eat a tablespoon
every day (or something like that) your body becomes immune to the
pollen that was used to make the honey.

I mentioned this to a coworker and he tried it and was amazed at how
much better his allergies were after a few weeks. I have no idea if this
really worked or if it was simply the power of suggestion.

Gary

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Re: Week 16 NFL Picks

2003-12-21 Thread Doug Pensinger

John wrote:

That and the fact that I can't stand the thought of the super-lucky New
England Patriots winning it all again.
They may have been lucky in other games, and they were the benificiarries 
of a truely awfull call by the officials, even after replay (which almost 
never gets it right IMO), but Brady & Co. looked pretty sharp.

--
Doug
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Re: Filtering

At 11:03 PM 12/21/2003, you wrote:
 Ronn! wrote:

What does the rest of the list think?  Should we avoid environmental 
topics entirely from now on, or what?  I sure don't to offend anyone or 
cause anyone to leave the list.
With all due respect, if we stopped talking about everything that makes 
someone upset, we may as well shut down the list because we wouldn't even 
be able to discuss the weather.

--
Doug
GSV All is Brin


You don't like the weather? (joking. It's as cold as a witches teat here, 
and can get much worse, but the forecast is for warmer days for the next 
two weeks).

Serious, I've only found problems with the term many scientists or the 
common belief is

I know there are things that don't exist in normal nature, you investigate 
and you are going to find something bad.

Let me ask this: have people ever done a test, trying to not find a 
specific result? Can such a test even be done anymore, you have no 
preconceived ideas about what you will find?

Kevin T. - VRWC
Enough for now, drunk and happy
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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

2003-12-21 Thread Bryon Daly

From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
At 12:12 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:
>>I used to suffer seasonally from hay fever so bad that my face would 
swell
>>and I had terrible headaches.
>>The funny thing is, when I started smoking that all ceased. I never get
>>"bad" allergies anymore.
>>I suppose the smoke is keeping my system distracted.

>I don't think I want to try it.

LOL
Not something I'd recommend, but I do find it an oddity.
I wonder if what I experienced is very common at all?
Along similar lines:
I went to visit some friends in Charleston a few years back.  They lived up 
against some woods, and had several cats, and my allergies went into 
overdrive.  I felt like total crud the first two days I was there.  Then, I 
went out in their boat, where we travelled down a rather swamp-like 
stream/river.  I thought I was doomed, but not long into the boat trip, my 
allergies started to clear up, and then they were almost entirely gone for 
the rest of the week.  It was like the massive allergen exposure forced my 
body to quit complaining and just get over it.

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Re: Filtering

2003-12-21 Thread Doug Pensinger

 Ronn! wrote:

What does the rest of the list think?  Should we avoid environmental 
topics entirely from now on, or what?  I sure don't to offend anyone or 
cause anyone to leave the list.

With all due respect, if we stopped talking about everything that makes 
someone upset, we may as well shut down the list because we wouldn't even 
be able to discuss the weather.

--
Doug
GSV All is Brin.
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Re: Notes on Uplift

William Taylor wrote:
>
>> 42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they?
>
> Everyone forgets the Rousit. Everyone. I tell you they have been left off
> of more lists than the Hobbits by the Ents.
>
:-)

> If planets are leased mostly according to patron client status, the Hoon
> should still have a few more than Earthclan.
>
Ok, but the _average_ should be close to Earthclan's 10 planets.

> I was thinking more of 275.000 years vrs just 300 years.
>
Wrong thinking. To the Galactics, Earth's Uplift _must_ have began
more than 100,000 years ago.

> Even if they only have 20 planets, because of the nature of their so called
> natural talents, a goodly percentage of the Hoon live in Kazzkark like
> settings. A hoonish compound where the accountants count for the entire
> working population.
>
> No matter the exact number, the major if not only export for any Hoon
> planet will if fact be the Hoon.
>
So maybe there are 42 planets _with_ sizeable Hoon population, but these
planets may have other races. This makes more sense.

> Now, Alberto, since very few races are as crazy as us'en Earthlings, what
> is the ratio of living humans to hoon?
>
I have no way to guess. I guess there are only a few extra-Earth humans.
There shouldn't be enough time to build up a large extra-Earth human
population, given that humans aren't motivated to have too many children
when they reach a high level of civilization.

> Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich
> whether or not he really wants to be so.
>
I know :-)

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Notes on Uplift

In a message dated 12/21/2003 7:49:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> 42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they?

Everyone forgets the Rousit. Everyone. I tell you they have been left off of 
more lists than the Hobbits by the Ents.

If planets are leased mostly according to patron client status, the Hoon 
should still have a few more than Earthclan.

I was thinking more of 275.000 years vrs just 300 years.

Even if they only have 20 planets, because of the nature of their so called 
natural talents, a goodly percentage of the Hoon live in Kazzkark like 
settings. A hoonish compound where the accountants count for the entire working 
population.

No matter the exact number, the major if not only export for any Hoon planet 
will if fact be the Hoon.

Now, Alberto, since very few races are as crazy as us'en Earthlings, what is 
the ratio of living humans to hoon?

Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich 
whether or not he really wants to be so.

William Taylor
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Re: Have a Soulful Solstice :-)

Deborah Harrell wrote:
>
> Well, now I must put on my medieval gown and trundle
> off for a solstice party -- this is my neo-druid
> friends' shindig, and I'm supposed to add a bit of
> quasi-partial-well-OK-pretend authenticity...   ;)
>
How pathetic is this neopaganism in the Northern Hemisphere!
If these things were celebrated here, people would be
dressed in _skin_! :-P

Alberto Monteiro

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Have a Soulful Solstice :-)

Well, now I must put on my medieval gown and trundle
off for a solstice party -- this is my neo-druid
friends' shindig, and I'm supposed to add a bit of
quasi-partial-well-OK-pretend authenticity...   ;)

O Happy For The Lengthening-Of-The-Days To Come Maru

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Re: Notes on Uplift

William Taylor wrote:
>
>>  * about 10 planets per race
>
> If Earth had ten leased worlds, everyone else, who is older, more
> important, and more civilized, should have more planets. If they are
> playing the Uplift-is-political-power game.
>
Earth _is_ a powerful patron, with two clients. If we think that
Uplift must be in equilibrium, then _most_ species would
have one and only one client.

> For no reason other than comic tribute, I gave the Hoon 42 planets. It's
> probably less. I don't think our good Dr. has run the numbers. It hasn't
> yet come up in a needed plot situation.
>
> ...42 planets and soon they are all going to be sending vacationers to
> Alvin's bay.
>
42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they?
Maybe you had better expand these 42 planets to the Hoon plus
their former patrons the Guthatsa, plus those that uplifted the Guthatsa
and those that uplifted those that uplifted the Guthatsa [who should be
thinking about retiring].

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Michael Crichton is Evil and Must be Destroyed (was: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed)

--- Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes, it would indeed be nice if someone could find
> an alternative which was 
> nearly (90%+?) as effective as DDT at killing the
> insects which spread 
> disease to humans while being much safer (<10% as
> toxic?) as DDT, and also 
> be cheap enough that the people living in some of
> the areas where diseases 
> like malaria and yellow fever are endemic can afford
> it.

There is also the possibility of gengineering
mosquitoes (or was it a bacterium that enables the
mosquito to be a host?) so that they can't vector the
parasite - there were several posts on that last
summer, IIRC.  Of course, releasing a GM animal into
the environment has its own hazards (the Law of
Unintended Consequences!)...I think there was also
something about how mosquito netting over children's
beds would drastically reduce infection rates (b/c
they feed at dawn/dusk?)...

> FWIW, is it possible that much of the problem with
> chemicals such as DDT 
> getting into the system where it is not wanted and
> causes problems is due 
> to overuse, on the principle "if a little is good, a
> lot is better"?

Probably in some places; I think aerial application is
fairly indiscriminant as well in many places.  As the
animals affected by DDT include frogs and other
insectivore amphibians, as well as bats, there is
reduction of the natural predators of mosquitos. 
Education re: not providing breeding grounds for the
little blood-suckers is also important, as humans tend
to create these without thinking.  [What with West
Nile here in force this past year, *every* news medium
ran/played multiple articles on canging bird bath and
pet water 2-3xweek, walking your property and picking
up anything that could hold rainwater (buckets, cans,
tires, etc.), checking your gutters for dips that
would hold standing water, etc.  At the stable we
checked weekly for these.]

Debbi
who saw that bald eagle again yesterday by the
resevoir; turns out a pair is wintering nearby -- a
friend who's lived here for decades said that there
was even a nesting pair there years ago!  :)

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Re: Notes on Uplift

In a message dated 12/21/2003 6:29:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and
>  from Contacting Aliens, I estimate:
>  
>  * about 2 million populated planets at each time
>  * about 10 planets per race
>  * about 200,000 races
>  
>  Most of those species would be doing "nothing", except about
>  * 10% being uplifted
>  * 10% in the 100,000-year period of indenture
>  * 10% uplifting a pre-sentient race
>  * 10% being served by an indentured client
>  
>  Alberto Monteiro
>  

If Earth had ten leased worlds, everyone else, who is older, more important, 
and more civilized, should have more planets. If they are playing the 
Uplift-is-political-power game.

For no reason other than comic tribute, I gave the Hoon 42 planets. It's 
probably less. I don't think our good Dr. has run the numbers. It hasn't yet come 
up in a needed plot situation.

...42 planets and soon they are all going to be sending vacationers to 
Alvin's bay.

William Taylor
-
Thousands and thousands of
uplifted races, and not once do
the Progenitors call.
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Re: RIDDLES: Yet another thread for fun.

Free time
A spare moment
A sense of direction
A memory of where he's been

William Taylor
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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

--- Robert Seeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> *Note: Not a defense of smoking*
> Do any of you who get "ill" (Not sarcastic quote
> marks, I use them to mark
> the difference between actual sickness and the kind
> of illness I am positing)
> around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of
> smoke?

Yes - I think I posted about my problems with smoke
from the Hayman fire here last summer; not only did I
wake coughing and with burning eyes (despite keeping
windows closed! and the fire being ~30 miles south of
my home) during the worst of it, but I developed
asthmatic-type shortness of breath afterward, such
that I had difficulty walking beside a student and
talking at the same time.  I am almost back at my
prior lung capacity, but not quite.  At least one
asthmatic patient died from Hayman smoke.  I also
avoid breathing in campfire smoke, and will develop a
dry cough if I am around one for more than a couple of
hours.

> How about on the freeway or on downtown streets?

No choking incidents, but I have pulled off when stuck
in near-stand-still traffic with 18-wheelers around; I
can easily tell if I'm following a diesel vs. unleaded
gasoline-using car by smell and what I'll call "taste
in the back of my throat."  (That's a bizarre term,
but a similar sensation occurred back when I was
working in a chem lab and somebody'd left particular
reagent bottles improperly capped.)  I avoid driving
behind or beside buses as well.

> It makes me wonder if Tobacco is only a secondary
> causative.

It's well-known that some
pollutants/irritants/allergens are synergistic or
additive; it is also true that those with reactive
airways, such as asthmatics and those with severe
respiratory allergies, are more susceptible to such
stimuli.  One of the many possible contributors to the
rise in asthma/allergies is the triggering of
'genetically vulnerable' persons by various
environmental insults, including tobacco smoke and
industrial pollutants.  

Tobacco smoke is directly toxic to the respiratory
cilia, and they cease their proper functioning (to
sweep mucus with its entrapped particles up to the
throat where it is either swallowed or coughed out)
after chronic exposure (I think "chronicity" can be
quite variable, and there is again probably a genetic
component to how much smoke will cause impairment of
the 'ciliary elevator.').  After being smoke-free for
days->weeks, some cilia will recover function and
start sweeping again -- this is why moderate->heavy
smokers who have quit recently will complain, "Now I
cough more than when I was smoking!"

Debbi
Smoke Gets In My Eyes And Hair And Lungs And...Maru

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RE: A sad, sad, day for the Sci-Fi Channel

> I dunno, the first movie is very funny. Never saw any of the other 
> iterations, though...
> Tom Beck


Personally I liked the first movie. But that was one of those movies
that should have never had a sequel, much less a series.

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Re: RIDDLES: Yet another thread for fun.

2003-12-21 Thread David Hobby

Travis Edmunds wrote:
> 
> >From: "Michael Harney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: RIDDLES: Yet another thread for fun.
> >Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:41:48 -0700
> >
> >
> >From: "Travis Edmunds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> > > Lets play a little game. I'll start things off by throwing a riddle on
> >the
> > > table. The first person to correctly answer the riddle has the privilege
> >of
> > > posting a riddle of their own.
> > >
> > > This guy went into the forest one day. Once there he got it, but he
> >couldn't
> > > get it. So he left it there and brought it back home. What did he get?
> >
> >This sounds like a patient zero situation.  A man goes into a forest, he
> >picks up a virus, but is immune to the virus, so he can only be a carrier.
> >So my answer is a virus that he is immune to.  Am I right?
> >
> >Micahel Harney
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> It is a probable answer to the riddle. However it's not THE answer. I mean
> if you had asked this particular riddle with a virus in mind as the answer,
> then "a virus" would be correct. It's a multi-answerable riddle I suppose.
> Just keep on guessing what it could be, until you guess correctly.
> 
> -Travis

Hey, that's not fair!  The poser must at least give a new 
piece of information each time they discard a possible answer,
otherwise this could go on for a long time...

Travis--  Here's a yes/no question:  Could your answer to this 
riddle be produced by someone who lived 500 years ago?

---David

Neologisms Maru
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Re: Notes on Uplift

Trent Shipley wrote:
>
> The first questions that come to mind are for the interval in question how
> many O-2 habitable planets are there, how many of them are currently leased
> for habitation, and how many uplifted main-sequence O-2 species are
> competing for those planets.  At one point I suggested that there might be
> 10,000 to 12,000 uplifted species, but now I think this might be a bit low.
>
I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and
from Contacting Aliens, I estimate:

* about 2 million populated planets at each time
* about 10 planets per race
* about 200,000 races

Most of those species would be doing "nothing", except about
* 10% being uplifted
* 10% in the 100,000-year period of indenture
* 10% uplifting a pre-sentient race
* 10% being served by an indentured client

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Week 16 NFL Picks

2003-12-21 Thread John D. Giorgis

At 07:10 PM 12/21/2003 -0600 Julia Thompson wrote:
>John is 7-7 for games already played so far this weekend, 6-5 for games
>played so far today, which *is* better than the 1-2 of yesterday, but
>not as good as I'd hoped for him.
>
>I have mixed feelings about the 49ers beating the Eagles.  That's about
>all I'm going to say about the games that have been played today.
>
>Don't know how much of the evening game I'll see, or if I'll see the end
>of it, but I'll be rooting for Indianapolis, and not just to help
>bolster John's record for the weekend.  :)

Now that my Buffalo Bill have embarassed themselves again, I'll be rooting
for Indianapolis too, if only because I think that Peyton Manning is both
an incredible player and a genuinely nice human being, and nothing would
make me happier this year than to have that idiotic myth that Peyton
Manning is a "choker" in big-time games that seems to have permeated so
many otherwise intelligent football observers dispelled once and for all
this year by the Colts winning the Super Bowl.

That and the fact that I can't stand the thought of the super-lucky New
England Patriots winning it all again.

JDG
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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

--- Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Deborah Harrell wrote:
> >--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as
> > > professed, but I am sure as
> > > hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore.
> >
> >Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was
> >exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3
> >hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car
> with
> >a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now).


> Pun intended?

But of course!  ;)
 
> It takes a lot less time than that for me to become
> ill from it.  Even 
> being in a room where people have been smoking can
> do it.

Ugh...I have a friend with significant asthma who
reports that she can get symptoms just from being
confined next to (as in on the bus) a heavy smoker.

Debbi
who *does* occasionally intend a pun, in addition to
the various subconscious (sp?) ones and
completely-by-accident ones  :)

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Scouted: House Bans Patents on Human Beings

2003-12-21 Thread John D. Giorgis

Not sure if anyone out there disagrees with this law, but if so, I 'd be
interested in hearing from you.

JDG

 http://www.lifenews.com/bio175.html

Pro-life groups say a patent is a government-conferred property right and
human beings shouldn't be considered "property."

The provision would ban patents for genetically engineered human embryos or
human beings but would not prohibit patents on tissues, cells or other
biological products.

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Re: Week 16 NFL Picks

John is 7-7 for games already played so far this weekend, 6-5 for games
played so far today, which *is* better than the 1-2 of yesterday, but
not as good as I'd hoped for him.

I have mixed feelings about the 49ers beating the Eagles.  That's about
all I'm going to say about the games that have been played today.

Don't know how much of the evening game I'll see, or if I'll see the end
of it, but I'll be rooting for Indianapolis, and not just to help
bolster John's record for the weekend.  :)

Julia
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Re: A sad, sad, day for the Sci-Fi Channel

2003-12-21 Thread TomFODW

> As if their incredibly bad taste in programming isn't enough, on the
> Friday after Christmas, the Sci-Fi Channel will be doing an all day
> Tremors marathon - every episode in order, and the movies. It's almost
> painful.
> 

I dunno, the first movie is very funny. Never saw any of the other 
iterations, though...



Tom Beck

www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated

2003-12-21 Thread Trent Shipley

On Sunday 2003-12-21 16:38, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> I read a note in a br newspaper yesterday, and it basically said
> something like this: "hey, folks, you think the USA is a christian
> country, but it's not; in fact, christians have been persecuted
> with violence, with the g*vernment approval"
>
> And then he listed what he thought was happening. Since
> the USA listmembers don't seem to say these things, I guess
> he is wrong. He mentioned things like:

He's not so much wrong as (probably) in a lunatic fringe of ultra-conservative 
evangelical christians.  Government school systems in the US are 
intentionally decentralized.  School districts (in most states) tend to be 
local affairs.  In the Greater Phoenix area we must have over a dozen 
individual districts (polities with their own elections, budgets, and 
policies) for grade schools and half that number of districts for secondary 
schools.  There are more school districts than municipalities.

> * public schools forbid kids to wear christian symbols,
> including carrying a bible to school

This would probably be unconstitutional.  Minors do not have complete rights 
to freedom of speech--especially at school--but a Bible wouldn't be obscene 
or objectionable.  

No doubt it has happened, but when it occurs it is an aberation.  

> * public schools punish kids that pray or proselityse.

There is a difference between younger and older children.  

Children CAN pray.  There might be restrictions, mostly their would not be 
allowed to interfere with the education of others, and maybe of themselves.  
(Muslims might be expected to perform obligatory prayers between classes, for 
example.  Evangelical Christians might need to pray quietly so as not to 
disturb others.)

PUBLIC prayers in istructional settings are out.

Proselityzing is problematic.  It tends to be permitted at secondary schools 
so long as it doesnt interfere with instruction.  

Schools CANNOT endorse prosyletizing or any prayer.  This tends to piss some 
conservatives off.  They don't like some logical extensions of the no 
establishment clause.

> * public schools suspend and fire teachers that profess
> a Christian faith

They cant.  That would violate the Constitution.  This also means that a 
teacher is limited about overt actions they take based on that faith,  they 
cannot try to convert kids, force students to pray, insist God exists (though 
they could say that they personally believe God or gods exists), and they 
might be compelled to teach evolution--though in practice a teacher can teach 
evolution and try to convince his or her students evolution is bunk, and some 
do.

> * it's ok to claim anti-christian slogans in front of churches,
> like "bring in the lions!"

Yep.  That is protected speech.  You cannot incite a riot or a crime, so long 
as you don't advocate criminal activity you can picket churches and slander 
religion.

> * a student that mentions anything anti-islamic is forced to
> spend hours in reeducating classes, where he must study
> and recite the Quram

Schools tend to discourage hate speech.  (Remeber minors, especially 
pre-teens, have limited free-speech protection, and they have *less* 
protection when at school.)  Virulent anti-Islamic statements at school or 
worse, slurs directed at actual people are likely to result in some sort of 
sensitivity training.  This is indoctrination, no matter what supporters 
might say.  In that sort of environment the trainee WILL have to study Islam, 
and depending on the program might actually have to study and/or memorize 
verses from the Quran.  NOTE that the intent would not be conversion (that 
would be unconstitional).  The hope is that the trainee will be less 
suceptible to hateful ideas and have an attitude more suited to living and 
working peacfully and productively in a multi-racial and multi-ethnic 
country.

> Alberto Monteiro
>
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Notes on Uplift

2003-12-21 Thread Trent Shipley

Naturally, since I stopped publishing the Encyclopedia, I have had a burst of 
creativity with Uplift Universe created topics.  One topic leads to another.  
In the course of thinking about the Tothtoon, the question arises of how 
uplift, in a political and demographic sense works.

The first questions that come to mind are for the interval in question how 
many O-2 habitable planets are there, how many of them are currently leased 
for habitation, and how many uplifted main-sequence O-2 species are competing 
for those planets.  At one point I suggested that there might be 10,000 to 
12,000 uplifted species, but now I think this might be a bit low.
(See: 
http://www.geocities.com/allianceforprogress/encyclopedia/gray/grymtrb1.html
)

I also think that the encyclopediest or writer working in the Uplift Universe 
should assume that the number of available habitats is growing slowly, the 
total biomass of sapient O-2 species is growing slightly faster than the 
available habitat--despite the best efforts of the Migration Institute, and 
the number of uplifted species is growing faster than the increase in 
population of individuals.  Nevertheless, the rate of increase in the number 
of uplifted species is still pretty low.

We are led to believe that uplift is pretty rare.  

Some causes for this scarcity might be natural.  The implication is that it is 
just very rare to find a new species suitable for uplift.  But the level of 
Galactic technology is very high.  If they let themselves, Galactics could 
uplift insects.  The critical causes of uplift scarcity must be artificial.  
For some reason, each ur species can be the subject of no more than one 
uplift project.  Second, even though it damages no ecosystem, potential ur 
populations living on fallow planets cannot be uplifted. Most important, the 
Uplift Institute sets an arbitrary threshold for how promising a candidate 
population must be before it can be adopted as the root-stock for an uplift 
project.

Then there is the question of how many clients each mature species needs to 
uplift to achieve replacement.  Even in the best of circumstances some 
patrons will not want to uplift clients and some clients will become extinct 
before reaching maturity.  The replacement rate must be just over one client 
per mature citizen species.  So for each mature citizen species the GUI needs 
to award something like 1.1 clients.

There are several ways that clients might be distributed among patrons.  First 
the allotment could be random.  If a species finds a potential client, then 
it can uplift it.  Rich species can buy potential clients if they can find 
anyone willing to sell.  (This is a good role-playing model since it results 
in type of adventure seed: find the client.)  

Even in other types of distribution systems randomness could play a part.  For 
example, explorers might discover lots of potential clients but the GUI is 
reluctant to issue more than one permit per patron.  In this case potential 
isn't rare and mature species are likely to be very selective about picking 
an ur population.  In another scenario the GUI forces very successful 
explorers to sell surplus claims.  

Distribution of clients could be fairly equitable.  In this case nearly every 
species who wants a client gets one.  However, being allowed to uplift a 
second client is a rare privilege and only the most powerful patrons get 
permission to uplift three or more clients.  In this scenario there is a lot 
of resentment for the Human clan *because they are so wealthy!*  Galactics 
feel about Humans the way others feel about Kuwait--they are rich without 
having to earn their wealth.

In a slightly less equitable system of distribution most would-be patrons 
uplift one client, a significant minority will never uplift any client, and a 
few patrons have two or more clients.  From a writers perspective this can 
make for moral subtlety --is the Human resentment of the Galactic order 
justified?

With moderate inequality the plurality of citizen species uplift only one 
client, the next most common category will never uplift clients, there is 
nothing remarkable about having two or three clients even though this is an 
unusual level of wealth.  More successful patrons often designate 
heir-apparents.

In a situation of heavy inequality uplift is dominated by powerful clans.  
Maybe half of all citizen species will never get a client, another quarter 
consider themselves fortunate to uplift a single client, and the last quarter 
uplift two or more clients.  Powerful patron lines dominate oligarchal 
Galactic politics. Lesser lines usually die out in two or three generations.  
They are replaced by less favored clients of the great patron lines.  

In a situation of extreme inequality Galactic civilization takes on a feudal 
quality.  Great Patrons almost always designate a lucky client as their 
primary heir.  Junior clan members may get to uplift one or two clients.  
These unfav

A sad, sad, day for the Sci-Fi Channel


As if their incredibly bad taste in programming isn't enough, on the
Friday after Christmas, the Sci-Fi Channel will be doing an all day
Tremors marathon - every episode in order, and the movies. It's almost
painful.

Gary

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Re: christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated

Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> 
> I read a note in a br newspaper yesterday, and it basically said
> something like this: "hey, folks, you think the USA is a christian
> country, but it's not; in fact, christians have been persecuted
> with violence, with the g*vernment approval"
> 
> And then he listed what he thought was happening. Since
> the USA listmembers don't seem to say these things, I guess
> he is wrong. He mentioned things like:
> 
> * public schools forbid kids to wear christian symbols,
> including carrying a bible to school
> 
> * public schools punish kids that pray or proselityse.
> 
> * public schools suspend and fire teachers that profess
> a Christian faith
> 
> * it's ok to claim anti-christian slogans in front of churches,
> like "bring in the lions!"
> 
> * a student that mentions anything anti-islamic is forced to
> spend hours in reeducating classes, where he must study
> and recite the Quram

I think it varies on a state-by-state basis.  If you told me this was
happening in California, I'd just want enough info so I could verify the
specific instances.  If you told me this was happening in Texas, my
first reaction would be disbelief (except maybe in the case of
proselytization or leading others in prayer).

Also, within a state, there could be variation between cities or school
districts.  And the sorts of things mentioned above would be more likely
in urban, rather than rural, areas, I think.

(I have heard of one case, I think it was in Mississippi, where a Jewish
kid was told not to wear his Star of David necklace because they thought
it was a gang symbol.  But that's so-called Christians being horribly
ignorant.)

Julia
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christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated

I read a note in a br newspaper yesterday, and it basically said
something like this: "hey, folks, you think the USA is a christian
country, but it's not; in fact, christians have been persecuted
with violence, with the g*vernment approval"

And then he listed what he thought was happening. Since
the USA listmembers don't seem to say these things, I guess
he is wrong. He mentioned things like:

* public schools forbid kids to wear christian symbols,
including carrying a bible to school

* public schools punish kids that pray or proselityse.

* public schools suspend and fire teachers that profess
a Christian faith

* it's ok to claim anti-christian slogans in front of churches,
like "bring in the lions!"

* a student that mentions anything anti-islamic is forced to
spend hours in reeducating classes, where he must study
and recite the Quram

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Filtering

2003-12-21 Thread John D. Giorgis

At 12:34 PM 12/21/2003 -0600 Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
>What does the rest of the list think?  Should we avoid environmental topics 
>entirely from now on, or what?  I sure don't to offend anyone or cause 
>anyone to leave the list.>

Full Disclosure:I have seen neither Michael's requests to avaoid a
certain subject area, nor the posts that have tackled this subject area.
My only knowledge of the situation are from the posts with this subject title.

Anyhow, with all due respect to Michael, my answer is "no."This List is
for full consideration of all the various issues facing human civilization.
  Obviously there is room for some discretion in the immediate wake of a
personal tragedy by a list member but ultimately the List should always
return to form and purpose.

JDG
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Re: Fw: Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow

2003-12-21 Thread TomFODW

The temp score they're using for the trailer is the Stargate SG-1 theme...



Tom Beck

www.mercerjewishsingles.org

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last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

At 12:28 PM 12/21/2003, you wrote:

- Original Message -
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:36 AM
Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
> It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it.  Even
> being in a room where people have been smoking can do it.
>
*Note: Not a defense of smoking*
[You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress]
Do any of you who get "ill" (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark
the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am
positing)
around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke?
rob
I have a reaction to certain chemicals. My liver was damaged when I was a 
kid.* When I was unemployed I contracted with a placement agency. My first 
job was with a company that made inks. I had to make samples and run 
various tests. I loved the job, the owner had a nice daughter who was my 
age and very smart, but by the end of week three I was coughing and felt 
awful. The owner even said he was going to hire me full time but I had to 
quit. Around paint, gasoline, perfume and similar I have bad reactions.*

Cigs can annoy me. People who sit them in an ashtray and let them burn down 
to the filter are the worst. Being around a campfire when you get a face 
full of smoke, no normal person can handle that. But I've been a bartender, 
our camp has an open fireplace so I can be in the environment and not get 
sick. Many times (like today) I cannot believe how bad my clothes smell the 
next day after being in a bar. But I don't have a reaction like I do around 
chemicals.

Smell is a strong sense and tied into a lot of memories and emotions. I 
would agree that some people (no one here of course!) are only reacting to 
the idea of smoke, not having an actual physical reaction.

*I cannot remember now if I reacted as badly to perfume before I was hurt 
as after. Perfume was the first thing I noticed. I only get sick when it's 
a heavy does. I can pump gasoline, get it on my hands. But just a month ago 
my boss was siphoning gas out of his truck, and my stomach turned over 
quickly. I didn't know he was doing it, the smell came into the store and I 
was sick.

Kevin T. - VRWC
back to the bars, go san fran!
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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:

> And FWIW, like Julia, different types of smoke do cause different levels of
> reaction.  Like her, pipe smoke doesn't bother me as much as cigarette
> smoke.  And I suppose it is indeed possible that different brands of
> cigarettes do cause different levels of irritation:  generally when those
> symptoms start, all I can think about is getting out of there to some fresh
> air, not asking the smoker(s) what brand they are smoking . . . especially
> because sometimes¹ when you tell someone that their smoke is making you
> ill, their response is to take a big draw on the cigarette and then blow
> that smoke directly in your face . . .
> 
> _
> ¹Not always.  But sometimes.

How rude!

I know about brand differences because a) I got into the habit of
looking at the pack as soon as it was pulled out, and then noting the
smoke *after* I got the brand name (and I could get really good at
identifying Marlboros from 20 feet away at one point!), and b) the
Camels were smoked by co-workers and in that case I noticed it was less
of a problem *after* they'd lit up, and they were nice enough not to be
obnoxious with their smoke, but just answer the question "Which brand is
that you're smoking?"

Of course, in the case of the co-workers who smoked Camels, I was in
charge of payroll, so they didn't want to piss me off.  :)

Julia

but that doesn't explain why Ian wasn't obnoxious, unless maybe he just
wasn't inclined to be obnoxious in that manner (he was certainly
obnoxious to me in other, more easily handled ways)
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Re: SF Blackout

In a message dated 12/21/2003 11:27:22 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> SF Blackout
  
Oh...   NOT Science Fiction.

Ok. That's just normal for California.

(Ask Ronn.)

William Taylor
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Re: Filtering

From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Filtering
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:00:31 -0600
No.
With all respect to Michael and his sensitivity to various issues, I think
it is the responsibility of the reader to do his/her own censoring.
We are all adults here and we should be grown up enough to exert a bit of
self discipline.
I think Michael is a perfect example and I applaud him for handling these
issues in the manner he has.
You knowits OK to blow up or blow off some steam sometimes. We are
all friends here, and friends should make some allowances for individual
peculiarities, especially when people are known to be making an effort
towards honest discourse and self-moderation.
In that sense I think we have very little reason to let ourselves be 
uptight
in regards to controversial subject matter.

Well put.

-Travis

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Re: Filtering

From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Filtering
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:34:57 -0600
What does the rest of the list think?  Should we avoid environmental topics 
entirely from now on, or what?  I sure don't to offend anyone or cause 
anyone to leave the list.

-- Ronn!  :)
Assuming it's a sincere question, as I'm not certain whether or not you 
jest, let me just say that no topic should be avoided, omitted, ostracized, 
black-listed etc...

As db himself says:

"Come explore one of the most active and intelligent internet discussion 
groups of all time -- the famed "Brin-L list," where cutting edge issues get 
taken on by truly open minds."

Hence, if we truly have open minds, we should tackle anything. If we don't, 
then it would show a certain level of closed-mindedness in and of itself.

-Travis "the whole jest/just bit was quite intentional" Edmunds

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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

- Original Message - 
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

At 12:12 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:

>>I used to suffer seasonally from hay fever so bad that my face would swell
>>and I had terrible headaches.
>>The funny thing is, when I started smoking that all ceased. I never get
>>"bad" allergies anymore.
>>I suppose the smoke is keeping my system distracted.

>I don't think I want to try it.

LOL
Not something I'd recommend, but I do find it an oddity.
I wonder if what I experienced is very common at all?

>And FWIW, like Julia, different types of smoke do cause different levels of
>reaction.  Like her, pipe smoke doesn't bother me as much as cigarette
>smoke.  And I suppose it is indeed possible that different brands of
>cigarettes do cause different levels of irritation:  generally when those
>symptoms start, all I can think about is getting out of there to some fresh
>air, not asking the smoker(s) what brand they are smoking

That is perfectly understandable. I *know* some people have allergic
reactions to tobacco. I accept it as factual.
I just wonder that the growing prevalence of seemingly similar attitudes is
not so much a symptom of the growth of allergies across the population as it
is the spread of a powerful meme.
In either case, something has changed greatly over 40 years or so.

>. . . especially
>because sometimes¹ when you tell someone that their smoke is making >you
>ill, their response is to take a big draw on the cigarette and then blow
>that smoke directly in your face . . .

That is just plain crappy.
There is no excuse for flaunting a disrespect for others in such a blatant
manner.
One does not have to like it, that their liberties are moderated for the
sake of another's liberty, but that is what is necessary to preserve liberty
in the main.

xponent
Limits Maru
rob

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Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.




From: Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:02:59 -0600
"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:
> Has anybody _ever_ called you "Mrs. Thompson" here?
No, but there's a first time for everything.  :)  Plus which, *you* had
already gotten "Mr. Blankenship" in the thread, I figured I ought to act
pre-emptively.
	Julia

A pre-emptive strike against formality...now that has possibilities.

-Travis "dadaism anybody?" Edmunds

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RE: SCOUTED: Why are we still there?

From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Brin-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: SCOUTED:  Why are we still there?
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:23:39 -0600
It is time to take a serious look at our involvement there.

Every day there are news reports about more deaths. Every night on the TV 
are photos of death and destruction. Why are we still there?

The land is too large to secure all of it. The bad people causing this 
damage can roam anywhere, and we can't possibly police the whole place. Why 
are we still there?

We occupied this land, which we had to take by force, but it causes us 
nothing but trouble. Why are we still there?

Their government is unstable, and in the process of changing.  Why are we 
still there?

Refugees are fleeing by the thousands, driven from their homes.  Why are we 
still there?

It will cost billions to rebuild, which we can't afford.  Why are we still 
there?

There are more than 1000 religious sects.

We can't even secure the borders. Why are we still there?

And to repeat.   Every day we hear of more Americans killed in this 
dangerous land.

It is clear!   We must abandon California . . .
 I really like that.

-Travis "who likes neat little things like that" Edmunds

_
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail  
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

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Re: Filtering

- Original Message - 
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: Filtering

> At 12:20 PM 12/21/03, Michael Harney wrote:
> >I'm filtering once again.  I have lots of things to do to prepare for
> >Christmas, so I don't have the time to participate.  Additionally, with
the
> >increasing posts re: environmentalism, my mind is going in directions
that I
> >don't want it to go.  I should have known that my requesting that topics
I
> >feel strongly about not be brought up would only increase the number of
> >posts on those topics.
>
>
>
> I'm sorry, Michael.  I know I am the one who posted the articles which
> started the current discussion.  I didn't mean to upset you.  I thought
> they might be of interest to some here.
>
> What does the rest of the list think?  Should we avoid environmental
topics
> entirely from now on, or what?  I sure don't to offend anyone or cause
> anyone to leave the list.
>

No.
With all respect to Michael and his sensitivity to various issues, I think
it is the responsibility of the reader to do his/her own censoring.
We are all adults here and we should be grown up enough to exert a bit of
self discipline.
I think Michael is a perfect example and I applaud him for handling these
issues in the manner he has.

You knowits OK to blow up or blow off some steam sometimes. We are
all friends here, and friends should make some allowances for individual
peculiarities, especially when people are known to be making an effort
towards honest discourse and self-moderation.

In that sense I think we have very little reason to let ourselves be uptight
in regards to controversial subject matter.

xponent
Self Support Systems Maru
rob

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Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.


- Original Message - 
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.


> At 12:22 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:
>
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:02 PM
> >Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
> >
> >
> > > Julia
> > >
> > > p.s. just read Rob's post on the subject, and his is a lot funnier
than
> > > mine...
> >
> >LOL
> >And I was a bit worried that no one would "get" the reference. 
>
>
>
> Why?  Did you think it lacked a-peel?
>

Certainly!
But I can stand in inSteed.


xponent
Avengence Is Mine Maru
rob


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Fw: Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow

This looks absolutely awesome.
rob


- Original Message - 
From: "Adrian Hon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 8:07 AM
Subject: Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow


> Has anyone else seen the trailer for this movie? If not, check it out
> now -
> http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/
> skycaptainandtheworldoftomorrow/
>
> Giant robots blasting death-rays, ornithopthers flying around,
> propellor planes zipping in and out, and all in a 30s art-deco
> steampunk style! Even better, it seems like it may actually have a good
> story. Yes, it does have Angelina Jolie in it, but I can forgive that.
>
> Adrian
> GSV And ignore the Stargate music


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Re: SF Blackout

When I saw the subject line, I was wondering who had ordered a blackout of 
science fiction . . .



At 12:28 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031221/D7VIRKI00.html

Crews were restoring power to thousands of homes and businesses early Sunday
following a blackout that left a third of the city without electricity on
one of the busiest days of the holiday season.
The power outage started just before 6 p.m. Saturday when a fire broke out
at a major Pacific Gas & Electric Co. substation.
About 120,000 customers lost power, including parts of Mission, North Beach,
Chinatown and downtown San Francisco, PG&E officials said. The outage forced
early evacuations at theaters and shopping centers, restaurants closed
early, and street lights stopped working, causing traffic problems
throughout the city.
Officials expected to have power fully restored late Sunday morning, said
PG&E spokesman Jonathan Franks. About 46,000 customers were still without
power at dawn.
Engineers had restored power late Saturday to about half of the affected
customers, but those customers were plunged back into darkness when workers
discovered the fire had not been fully contained and the substation had to
be shut down again.
The cause of the fire was under investigation, Franks said.

"There's no indication that it was vandalism or sabotage. As far as the
exact cause, we just don't know yet," he said.


xponent

Not Significant, Not Unexpected Maru

rob

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-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Filtering

At 12:20 PM 12/21/03, Michael Harney wrote:
I'm filtering once again.  I have lots of things to do to prepare for
Christmas, so I don't have the time to participate.  Additionally, with the
increasing posts re: environmentalism, my mind is going in directions that I
don't want it to go.  I should have known that my requesting that topics I
feel strongly about not be brought up would only increase the number of
posts on those topics.


I'm sorry, Michael.  I know I am the one who posted the articles which 
started the current discussion.  I didn't mean to upset you.  I thought 
they might be of interest to some here.

What does the rest of the list think?  Should we avoid environmental topics 
entirely from now on, or what?  I sure don't to offend anyone or cause 
anyone to leave the list.



-- Ronn!  :)

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Better not mess with Clark

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.hts/nation/2312399

Moments after praising his opponents in the Democratic presidential race as
worthy running mates, Wesley Clark said, in no uncertain terms, how he would
respond if they or anyone else criticized his patriotism or military record.
"I'll beat the s--- out of them," Clark told a questioner as he walked
through the crowd after a town hall meeting Saturday. "I hope that's not on
television," he added.

It was, live, on C-SPAN.

The campaign's traveling press secretary, Jamal Simmons, was with Clark at
the time.

"If anyone tries to question Wes Clark's character, integrity or his
commitment to this country or its security, they're going to be in the
biggest fight they've ever had," Simmons said.



xponent

The Redneck/Shitkicker Ethic Maru

rob


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SF Blackout

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031221/D7VIRKI00.html

Crews were restoring power to thousands of homes and businesses early Sunday
following a blackout that left a third of the city without electricity on
one of the busiest days of the holiday season.
The power outage started just before 6 p.m. Saturday when a fire broke out
at a major Pacific Gas & Electric Co. substation.

About 120,000 customers lost power, including parts of Mission, North Beach,
Chinatown and downtown San Francisco, PG&E officials said. The outage forced
early evacuations at theaters and shopping centers, restaurants closed
early, and street lights stopped working, causing traffic problems
throughout the city.

Officials expected to have power fully restored late Sunday morning, said
PG&E spokesman Jonathan Franks. About 46,000 customers were still without
power at dawn.

Engineers had restored power late Saturday to about half of the affected
customers, but those customers were plunged back into darkness when workers
discovered the fire had not been fully contained and the substation had to
be shut down again.

The cause of the fire was under investigation, Franks said.

"There's no indication that it was vandalism or sabotage. As far as the
exact cause, we just don't know yet," he said.




xponent

Not Significant, Not Unexpected Maru

rob


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Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.

At 12:22 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:

- Original Message -
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
> Julia
>
> p.s. just read Rob's post on the subject, and his is a lot funnier than
> mine...
LOL
And I was a bit worried that no one would "get" the reference. 


Why?  Did you think it lacked a-peel?



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: CNN Breaking News


- Original Message - 
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Brin-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Fwd: CNN Breaking News


> Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge expected to raise the U.S. security
> level at 1:30 p.m. ET news conference and discuss concerns about continued
> al Qaeda threats, official tells CNN.
>
Yeah

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031221/D7VITS9O0.html

Here we go again.


xponent
Orange Crush Maru
rob


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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

At 12:12 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:

- Original Message -
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
At 11:28 AM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:

> >
>
>*Note: Not a defense of smoking*
>[You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress]
>
>Do any of you who get "ill" (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark
>the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am
>positing)
>around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke?

Yes.

I had asthma as a child, though I eventually outgrew it.  I still have
allergies to various inhaled irritants.  There have been numerous occasions
when I went into a room and my nose and sinuses start running, my eyes
start itching, swell, turn red, tear up, and close to the point I just
about can't see at all, etc., and only then when I look for the cause do I
discover that someone is or has been smoking in the room.  The same thing
happens _some_ cats, rabbits, and other furry animals:  if I handled such
an animal, I would get the above symptoms, plus itchy hives on my face and
neck, and would have to take my allergy medication, then take a hot bath
and put on clean clothes.  Fortunately, I have gotten less sensitive to
fur-Midnight was on my lap when I started typing this reply-though
sometimes I still get a bit of irritation when I play with some cats (no
obvious pattern as to whether they are mostly indoor or outdoor,
long-haired or short-haired, etc.)  Sometimes I have had a similar reaction
when going into a fabric store.  Some types of pollen and dust cause me
misery as well.  Other things do bother me as well, although it does seem
that, like the furry animals, I have gotten less sensitive to some of them
as I have gotten older.
___

Two of my younger brothers had serious allergies. And one of them seemed to
be allergic to everything.

When I had the "scratch test" as a child, just about everything produced a 
giant red welt.

I used to suffer seasonally from hay fever so bad that my face would swell
and I had terrible headaches.
The funny thing is, when I started smoking that all ceased. I never get
"bad" allergies anymore.
I suppose the smoke is keeping my system distracted.

I don't think I want to try it.

And FWIW, like Julia, different types of smoke do cause different levels of 
reaction.  Like her, pipe smoke doesn't bother me as much as cigarette 
smoke.  And I suppose it is indeed possible that different brands of 
cigarettes do cause different levels of irritation:  generally when those 
symptoms start, all I can think about is getting out of there to some fresh 
air, not asking the smoker(s) what brand they are smoking . . . especially 
because sometimes¹ when you tell someone that their smoke is making you 
ill, their response is to take a big draw on the cigarette and then blow 
that smoke directly in your face . . .

_
¹Not always.  But sometimes.

-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.


- Original Message - 
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.


> Julia
>
> p.s. just read Rob's post on the subject, and his is a lot funnier than
> mine...

LOL
And I was a bit worried that no one would "get" the reference. 

xponent
Cue The Theme Music Maru
rob


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Filtering

2003-12-21 Thread Michael Harney

I'm filtering once again.  I have lots of things to do to prepare for
Christmas, so I don't have the time to participate.  Additionally, with the
increasing posts re: environmentalism, my mind is going in directions that I
don't want it to go.  I should have known that my requesting that topics I
feel strongly about not be brought up would only increase the number of
posts on those topics.  Oh, well.  See you in a few (days, weeks, I don't
know it depends on when I'm not so busy and when I'm feeling better).

Michael Harney - who regrets that he will miss the answer to the riddle, but
can always look it up on the archives later.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Fwd: CNN Breaking News

Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge expected to raise the U.S. security 
level at 1:30 p.m. ET news conference and discuss concerns about continued 
al Qaeda threats, official tells CNN.



(c)2003. Cable News Network, LP, LLLP.

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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

- Original Message - 
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

At 11:28 AM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:

> >
>
>*Note: Not a defense of smoking*
>[You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress]
>
>Do any of you who get "ill" (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark
>the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am
>positing)
>around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke?

Yes.

I had asthma as a child, though I eventually outgrew it.  I still have
allergies to various inhaled irritants.  There have been numerous occasions
when I went into a room and my nose and sinuses start running, my eyes
start itching, swell, turn red, tear up, and close to the point I just
about can't see at all, etc., and only then when I look for the cause do I
discover that someone is or has been smoking in the room.  The same thing
happens _some_ cats, rabbits, and other furry animals:  if I handled such
an animal, I would get the above symptoms, plus itchy hives on my face and
neck, and would have to take my allergy medication, then take a hot bath
and put on clean clothes.  Fortunately, I have gotten less sensitive to
fur-Midnight was on my lap when I started typing this reply-though
sometimes I still get a bit of irritation when I play with some cats (no
obvious pattern as to whether they are mostly indoor or outdoor,
long-haired or short-haired, etc.)  Sometimes I have had a similar reaction
when going into a fabric store.  Some types of pollen and dust cause me
misery as well.  Other things do bother me as well, although it does seem
that, like the furry animals, I have gotten less sensitive to some of them
as I have gotten older.

___

Two of my younger brothers had serious allergies. And one of them seemed to
be allergic to everything.
I used to suffer seasonally from hay fever so bad that my face would swell
and I had terrible headaches.
The funny thing is, when I started smoking that all ceased. I never get
"bad" allergies anymore.
I suppose the smoke is keeping my system distracted.

xponent
Weird Science Maru
rob

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Re: SCOUTED: Why are we still there?

In a message dated 12/21/2003 10:22:03 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> We must abandon California . . 

Damn, I'm getting used to Ronn.

I got it right by the second line.

Vilyehm
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Re: ADMIN and ALL THE LIST: Google search of Brin-L archives

In a message dated 12/21/2003 9:06:46 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Just thought everyone might like to know: I had reason¹ to search Google 
>  for my name this morning, and most of the over 5,000 results it returned 
>  appear to be references to messages on Brin-L.

I knew Brin-L was on google when I got a personal reply from the mowtore 
cickle
wryder here in twosawn that got laasewed for illleaglee righding his buyk in 
the dry ribber bed.

Debbi got an email as well.

William Taylor

Anti google search spelling.
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Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.

"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:
> 
> At 12:37 PM 12/18/03, Julia Thompson wrote:
> >
> > Julia
> >
> >and you *really* don't have to call me "Mrs. Thompson" here
> 
> Has anybody _ever_ called you "Mrs. Thompson" here?

No, but there's a first time for everything.  :)  Plus which, *you* had
already gotten "Mr. Blankenship" in the thread, I figured I ought to act
pre-emptively.

Julia

p.s. just read Rob's post on the subject, and his is a lot funnier than
mine...
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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

Robert Seeberger wrote:
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
> 
> > At 04:43 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote:
> > >--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as
> > > > professed, but I am sure as
> > > > hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore.
> > >
> > >Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was
> > >exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3
> > >hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car with
> > >a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now).
> >^^^
> >
> >
> > Pun intended?
> >
> > It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it.  Even
> > being in a room where people have been smoking can do it.
> >
> 
> *Note: Not a defense of smoking*
> [You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress]
> 
> Do any of you who get "ill" (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark
> the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am
> positing)
> around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke?
> How about on the freeway or on downtown streets?

Some other kinds of smoke, yes.  Getting behind some vehicles ends up
being less than pleasant for me.

And cigarettes are worse than pipe tobacco for me, and certain *brands*
of cigarettes are worse than others.  I can hang around people smoking
Camels a *lot* longer than I can hang around people smoking Marlboros. 
(Try "20-30 minutes" as opposed to "about 15 seconds".)

I'm wondering if my personal problems with secondhand smoke are not the
tobacco, but the @#$% additives.  Given that there's a significant
difference in how much smoke of one brand I can handle as opposed to
smoke of another brand, I'm guessing that in *my* case, that is where
the problem is.

(And I have had some serious problems around cigarette smoke -- in the
days when smoking was permitted in planes, I asked for a seat in
non-smoking, got seated in the very last row of non-smoking, and I don't
remember much between the time I started coughing and some point where I
was in another seat a few rows forward of where I'd been originally
seated -- thank goodness I was travelling with someone and the flight
attendants were quick to help him.  But usually there's enough air
volume to dissipate stuff before it gets to that point with me.)

Julia
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Re: SCOUTED: Why are we still there?

"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:
> 
> It is time to take a serious look at our involvement there.
> 



Cite?

Julia
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Slavery in Florida.....Now!

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/auto/epaper/editions/sunday/news_f35e42e03786009e004f.html

http://tinyurl.com/2b487

The U.S. Justice Department has begun to investigate a new case of slavery
in Florida involving a group of undocumented Mexican farmworkers who say
they were forcibly detained and threatened with violence by labor
contractors.

The facts of the case were first made public in an article in The Palm Beach
Post Dec. 7, part of the newspaper's recent series, Modern-Day Slavery.

In that article, a 28-year-old Mexican man said that on more than one
occasion in late 2002, he and other migrant tomato pickers were locked
inside a trailer in the town of Wimauma, in Hillsborough County, by a family
of farm labor contractors who claimed the workers owed them money. Those
alleged debts were smuggling fees the workers incurred while being
transported clandestinely into the U.S. from Mexico.

The man, who used the alias Jose Moreno, claimed he and the other laborers
had to work off those debts before they could change jobs, were chained in
the trailer at times and threatened with violence if they tried to leave.
Such actions violate anti-slavery laws.

According to sources close to the case, two Justice Department attorneys
flew from Washington to Tampa Monday. They, plus two FBI agents, met with
Moreno that day at the Beth-El Mission, a religious facility in Wimauma.

"The meeting lasted five hours," said one source who was at the mission
during the meeting. "He (Moreno) said that they asked him about everything
that was in the article The meeting went well."

Looking for corroboration

One of the attorneys was identified as Susan French, who has been active in
previous cases of slavery and indentured servitude in Florida. Federal
courts have convicted several Florida labor contractors in such cases during
the past six years. The latest trial was in 2002 when two contractors were
sentenced to 12 years and another to 10 years for an incident in the central
Florida town of Lake Placid.

French, reached by telephone, refused to comment on the Wimauma case. The
other attorney was not identified.

But one of the sources said Moreno had offered to help the Justice
Department find some of the other young men locked up with him, which is
essential to the case. Moreno told The Post at least 10 others were
victimized at the same time as he was. The men have since dispersed; some
may still be in the U.S. working, and others may have returned to Mexico.

Moreno, according to the source, told the attorneys that one of the men was
a distant cousin of his and that he would try to locate him through other
family members. He said he also knew the hometown of a third alleged victim,
which might make it possible to find that individual.

Moreno returned to Mexico last week to visit his family but is expected back
after New Year's. According to the source, in order to facilitate his
cooperation in the case, the Justice Department attorneys had Moreno sign
two immigration forms: a Form 102, which will allow him to receive temporary
permission to enter the U.S. legally, and a Form 765, which will allow him
to work here legally when he returns.

Such provisions are often made so that potential witnesses will be available
to prosecutors.

Moreno told The Post that, in early October 2002, he was smuggled through
the Sonora Desert into Arizona by a man who, along with several of his
brothers, operates as both a people-moving "coyote" and farm labor
contractor. Moreno said he and others brought to the U.S. with him were
promised tomato picking work in and around Wimauma, work that paid well and
would allow them to rapidly pay off hundreds of dollars in smuggling fees.

But he said the work was sparse and scarcely paid during the first weeks
after they arrived in Florida. He said the contractors, afraid the workers
would try to escape, began to guard them at all times and, on some occasions
when no guard was available, locked them in a trailer that was secured with
a thick chain, a padlock and windows that were nailed so that no one could
get out.

Moreno said he and others complained but the brothers threatened them with
violence. Moreno says he was never struck, but his cousin, Gustavo, fought
with the brothers over lack of pay and sustained a broken bone in his arm or
hand.

Men denied church visit

On a Sunday in December last year, an elder from the nearby Good Samaritan
Mission, a Christian church, arrived at the trailer to invite some of the
men to services, but he was denied permission to take them. Moreno, who
insisted on his right to attend church, was eventually allowed to go, but he
was the only one.

That same week, the youth pastor from the church went to investigate and
said he found the young men locked in the trailer. He and the church elder
told their stories to The Post, and the newspaper tracked down Moreno, who
by then was working in Ohio. He confirmed what the two churchmen had said.

Refer

Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

At 11:28 AM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote:

- Original Message -
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:36 AM
Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
> At 04:43 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote:
> >--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as
> > > professed, but I am sure as
> > > hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore.
> >
> >Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was
> >exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3
> >hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car with
> >a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now).
>^^^
>
>
> Pun intended?
>
> It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it.  Even
> being in a room where people have been smoking can do it.
>
*Note: Not a defense of smoking*
[You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress]
Do any of you who get "ill" (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark
the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am
positing)
around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke?

Yes.

I had asthma as a child, though I eventually outgrew it.  I still have 
allergies to various inhaled irritants.  There have been numerous occasions 
when I went into a room and my nose and sinuses start running, my eyes 
start itching, swell, turn red, tear up, and close to the point I just 
about can't see at all, etc., and only then when I look for the cause do I 
discover that someone is or has been smoking in the room.  The same thing 
happens _some_ cats, rabbits, and other furry animals:  if I handled such 
an animal, I would get the above symptoms, plus itchy hives on my face and 
neck, and would have to take my allergy medication, then take a hot bath 
and put on clean clothes.  Fortunately, I have gotten less sensitive to 
furMidnight was on my lap when I started typing this replythough 
sometimes I still get a bit of irritation when I play with some cats (no 
obvious pattern as to whether they are mostly indoor or outdoor, 
long-haired or short-haired, etc.)  Sometimes I have had a similar reaction 
when going into a fabric store.  Some types of pollen and dust cause me 
misery as well.  Other things do bother me as well, although it does seem 
that, like the furry animals, I have gotten less sensitive to some of them 
as I have gotten older.

-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.


- Original Message - 
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.


> At 12:37 PM 12/18/03, Julia Thompson wrote:
> >Travis Edmunds wrote:
> > >
> > > >From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Subject: Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
> > > >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:21:04 -0600
> > > >
> > > >-- Ronn!  :)
> > > >
> > > >who seldom hears "Mr. Blankenship" except from students or from
people who
> > > >are trying to sell him something . . .
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >  Well I figured Ronn was a little too informal. Also figured a
> > Beserker
> > > would be right up your alley seeing as how it's old school sci-fi. As
> > for me
> > > trying to sell you something...wanna buy my marble collection?
> > >
> > > -Travis "trying to lose his marbles" Edmunds.
> >
> >Well, we tend toward the informal here, and it's actually Ronn!, not
> >Ronn.  :)  (Took me awhile to get that, myself.)
>
>
>
> While Greg Bear got it right the first time . . .
>
>
>
> >In general, look how folks refer to themselves and how other people
> >refer to them, and take that as your lead for what to call someone.
> >
> > Julia
> >
> >and you *really* don't have to call me "Mrs. Thompson" here
>
>
>
> Has anybody _ever_ called you "Mrs. Thompson" here?
>

Well.there was the time the guy with the bowler and cane popped his head
into her upstairs bedroom window, just after Julia destroyed an android sent
to kidnap her, and said "Mrs. ThompsonYou're needed!"

But that was a while back.


xponent
The Power Of Pop Culture Maru
rob


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Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

- Original Message - 
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:36 AM
Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

> At 04:43 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote:
> >--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as
> > > professed, but I am sure as
> > > hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore.
> >
> >Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was
> >exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3
> >hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car with
> >a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now).
>^^^
>
>
> Pun intended?
>
> It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it.  Even
> being in a room where people have been smoking can do it.
>

*Note: Not a defense of smoking*
[You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress]

Do any of you who get "ill" (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark
the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am
positing)
around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke?
How about on the freeway or on downtown streets?

If not, I suggest that this kind of "illness" might be for the most part
psychosomatic.
You never used to hear people, with any regularity, make these claims
before, say, 1980 (date pulled out of hat).
I had bronchitis as a child and smoke *never* caused an attack with me the
way it did with a kid down the street who had asthma. (For me it was always
cold air in the evening) When I was a kid almost all the adults I knew
smoked (indeed, smoking was much more prevalent in those days) yet the
health problems associated with tobacco smoke are on the rise.
It makes me wonder if Tobacco is only a secondary causative.

*

When someone says smoke makes them "ill", I assume it is the same kind of
"ill" one might feel after eating maggots, grubs, or termites. Bugs that are
nutritious and by some accounts tasty, yet to westerners they are yuck yuck
yuck.

Now I'm not suggesting that everyone should suddenly begin to enjoy the
smell of tobacco smoke, but I am suggesting that there is an element of
psychology in the anti-smoking campaign that exaggerates the negative
effects of tobacco in the minds of many.

*
This has been on my mind lately because I have begun to notice smokers who
complain about *other peoples smoke*.
The irony is perverse to me.

xponent
The Power Of Memes Maru
rob

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SCOUTED: Why are we still there?

It is time to take a serious look at our involvement there.

Every day there are news reports about more deaths. Every night on the TV 
are photos of death and destruction. Why are we still there?

The land is too large to secure all of it. The bad people causing this 
damage can roam anywhere, and we can't possibly police the whole place. Why 
are we still there?

We occupied this land, which we had to take by force, but it causes us 
nothing but trouble. Why are we still there?

Their government is unstable, and in the process of changing.  Why are we 
still there?

Refugees are fleeing by the thousands, driven from their homes.  Why are we 
still there?

It will cost billions to rebuild, which we can't afford.  Why are we still 
there?

There are more than 1000 religious sects.

We can't even secure the borders. Why are we still there?

And to repeat.   Every day we hear of more Americans killed in this 
dangerous land.

It is clear!   We must abandon California . . .

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SCOUTED: The Skeptical Environmentalist

<>

Enjoy full access to this nationalpost.com story during our trial period. 
After January 24th, 2004, complete access will be limited to registered 
6-day National Post print subscribers.

Science wins

Terence Corcoran
Financial Post
Friday, December 19, 2003

It's been a rough year for environmental extremists. As the Kyoto Accord 
slips into a coma, 2003 could even mark the beginning of the end of the 
greatest world experiment, the attempt to push science and politics into a 
big centrifuge to create a system for global governance.

The collapse of Kyoto is a world-scale event. A microcosm of the shifting 
links between politics and science is the much smaller breaking story of 
Bjrn Lomborg. Earlier this year, when a Danish government agency declared 
Mr. Lomborg, author of The Skeptical Environmentalist, a "dishonest" 
scientist, the Big Green Left rejoiced. For two years, environmental 
activists had sought to discredit Mr. Lomborg, whose brilliant book 
valiantly demolished much of the junk science and fabricated alarmism that 
drives the global environmental movement. Mr. Lomborg was especially 
effective in dismissing Kyoto as an over-costly attempt to fix a climate 
issue that he considered "not anywhere near the most important problem 
facing the world."

The attacks on Mr. Lomborg were vicious, personal and extreme, and appeared 
in some of the most respected science publications: Nature, Science and 
Scientific American. The final blow came when a bureaucratic sub-agency 
within the Danish Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation -- bearing 
the Orwellian name Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty -- issued a 
report last January. It said Mr. Lomborg had committed acts of "scientific 
dishonesty" in The Skeptical Environmentalist.

The enthusiasm for this conclusion was widespread. A former editor of 
Nature said Mr. Lomborg had "veered well across the line that divides 
controversial -- if competent -- science from unrepentant incompetence." 
The president of the American Association for the Advancement of Science 
said "this is a just outcome that ought to bring his credibility to a halt."

Well, it hasn't. What came to a halt this week, in fact, is the Danish 
committees finding against Mr. Lomborg In a new report, the Danish Ministry 
of Science repudiated the findings. All the dishonesty, apparently, is 
inside the committees. Among other things, the government said that in 
attacking Mr. Lomborg the committee "had not documented where [Mr. Lomborg] 
has allegedly been biased in his choice of date and in his argumentation." 
It said that the committees actual conclusion was that "there was no 
scientific dishonesty" found, but the conclusion was distorted. It accused 
the committees of using emotive language. (See below. Readers interested in 
the details can go to www.imv.dk/Default.asp?ID=233.)

The real issue here is the politicization of the process to discredit Mr. 
Lomborg, who is also head of the Danish Institute for Environmental 
Assessment. Rather than answer Mr. Lomborg's findings and conclusions 
through argument, debate and fact, his scientific and political opponents 
went for the political jugular. They smeared and criticized his work, 
aiming to discredit him rather than engage him.

Perhaps they knew too well that the deliberate alarmism that is the 
official strategy in the political arena cannot, in the end, stand up to 
the scientific reality that Mr. Lomborg defended so brilliantly in his book.

- - -

WHY THE LOMBORG DECISION WAS OVERTURNED:

Excerpts from the Institute for Miljvurdering Web site.

The Danish Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation has today 
repudiated findings by the Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty 
(DCSD) that Bjrn Lomborg's book The Skeptical Environmentalist was 
"objectively dishonest" or "clearly contrary to the standards of good 
scientific practice".

The Ministry, which is responsible for the DCSD, has today released a 
critical assessment of the committees' Jan. 6 ruling. The Ministry finds 
that the DCSD judgment was not backed up by documentation, and was 
"completely void of argumentation" for the claims of dishonesty and lack of 
good scientific practice.

The Ministry characterizes the DCSD's treatment of the case as 
"dissatisfactory", "deserving criticism" and "emotional" and points out a 
number of significant errors. The DCSD's verdict has consequently been 
remitted.

Bjrn Lomborg, director of the Denmark's Environmental Assessment Institute 
(EAI), today expressed his satisfaction with the ruling. "It has been 
almost two years since the beginning of the DCSD case against my book," Mr. 
Lomborg said.

"It has been hard, but I am happy that we now have confirmation that 
freedom of speech extends to environmental debate. Now that this 
distraction is behind us, we can concentrate our effor

ADMIN and ALL THE LIST: Google search of Brin-L archives

Just thought everyone might like to know: I had reason¹ to search Google 
for my name this morning, and most of the over 5,000 results it returned 
appear to be references to messages on Brin-L.



_
¹Not simple egotism:  I was looking for a page someone else had turned up 
when he did a search to find something negative about me.



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.

At 12:37 PM 12/18/03, Julia Thompson wrote:
Travis Edmunds wrote:
>
> >From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
> >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:21:04 -0600
> >
> >-- Ronn!  :)
> >
> >who seldom hears "Mr. Blankenship" except from students or from people who
> >are trying to sell him something . . .
> >
> >
>
>  Well I figured Ronn was a little too informal. Also figured a 
Beserker
> would be right up your alley seeing as how it's old school sci-fi. As 
for me
> trying to sell you something...wanna buy my marble collection?
>
> -Travis "trying to lose his marbles" Edmunds.

Well, we tend toward the informal here, and it's actually Ronn!, not
Ronn.  :)  (Took me awhile to get that, myself.)

While Greg Bear got it right the first time . . .

In general, look how folks refer to themselves and how other people
refer to them, and take that as your lead for what to call someone.
Julia

and you *really* don't have to call me "Mrs. Thompson" here

Has anybody _ever_ called you "Mrs. Thompson" here?

-- Ronn!  :)

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Farscape mini series...


Woo hoo!  Not much information here from the IMDB, but it must be a
reality since it is listed.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387736/

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Re: Michael Crichton is Evil and Must be Destroyed (was: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed)

At 03:52 AM 12/21/2003, you wrote:
At 02:37 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote:

Yes, it would indeed be nice if someone could find an alternative which 
was nearly (90%+?) as effective as DDT at killing the insects which spread 
disease to humans while being much safer (<10% as toxic?) as DDT, and also 
be cheap enough that the people living in some of the areas where diseases 
like malaria and yellow fever are endemic can afford it.

FWIW, is it possible that much of the problem with chemicals such as DDT 
getting into the system where it is not wanted and causes problems is due 
to overuse, on the principle "if a little is good, a lot is better"?



-- Ronn!


Except, there have been just as many studies showing that DDT is not 
dangerous when used normally. Most of the negative studies have been with 
doses that exceed by magnitudes the levels found in nature. Bald eagles and 
other bird populations were declined before DDT was introduced, yet it 
became the boogyman.

Kevin T. - VRWC
Flame on (joking)
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Re: Michael Crichton is Evil and Must be Destroyed (was: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed)

At 02:37 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote:
--- Michael Harney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Regarding DDT:  Banning DDT was not a mistake, as a
> matter of fact, Mr.
> Crichton's** insistance that it was a mistake, and
> that DDT is safe, are mistakes on his part...
> ...so an internet search of articles with many
> sources cited will have to do for now:
> http://www.seaweb.org/background/cetaceans.html
>
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v375/n6532/abs/375581a0.html
> http://www.nature.com/nsu/010719/010719-3.html
Here is the International Programme on Chemical Safety
(IPCS) site on DDT: (it is a joint venture of the
United Nations Environment Programme, the
International Labour Organisation, and the World
Health Organization)
http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc83.htm#SectionNumber:1.8
"The  physicochemical properties of DDT and its
metabolites enable these compounds to be taken up
readily by organisms.  High lipid solubility and low
water solubility  lead to the retention  of DDT and
its stable metabolites in fatty tissue.  The rates of
accumulation into organisms vary with the species,
with the duration and concentration of exposure, and
with environmental conditions.  The high retention of
DDT metabolites means that toxic effects can occur in
organisms remote in time and geographical area from
the point of exposure.
 "These compounds are resistant to breakdown and are
readily adsorbed to sediments and soils that can act
both as sinks and as long-term sources of exposure
(e.g., for soil organisms).
 "Organisms can accumulate these chemicals from the
surrounding medium and from food.  In aquatic
organisms, uptake from the water is generally more
important, whereas, in terrestrial fauna, food
provides
the major source.
 "In general, organisms at higher trophic levels tend
to contain more DDT-type compounds than those at lower
trophic levels.  [Raptors are particularly susceptible
to DDT's thinning of their eggshells, while ducks and
chickens are not.  This is detailed in the article.]
 "Such compounds can be transported around the world
in the bodies of migrant animals and in ocean and air
currents"
This is a very detailed article with summaries of many
studies on microbes, fish, amphibians, and birds -
also affected were bats.
Our national bird, the bald eagle, was threatened with
extinction in the lower 48 states by hunting, habitat
destruction, and poisoning: "The greatest threat to
the bald eagle's existence arose from the widespread
use of DDT and other pesticides after World War II."
(Lead poisoning from hunters birdshot was also a
significant problem; its use was phased out by 1991.)
http://www.usflag.org/bald.eagle.html
"...With these and other recovery methods, as well as
habitat improvement and the banning of DDT, the bald
eagle has made a remarkable comeback. From fewer than
450 nesting pairs in the early 1960s, there are now
more than 4,000 adult bald eagles nesting pairs and an
unknown number of young and subadults in the
conterminous United States. This represents a
substantial breeding population..."
There are groups who deny the toxicity of DDT; here is
one site:
http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C06/C06Links/www.altgreen.com.au/Chemicals/ddt.html
But women exposed prenatally to higher levels of DDT
have decreased probability of pregnancy:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12842376&dopt=Abstract
"The decreased fecundability associated with prenatal
p,p'-DDT remains unexplained."  [OTOH, DDE exposure
seemed to increase pregnancy rates  -- these chemicals
do have estrogenic +/or antiestrogenic activity; there
is speculation that some herbicides, also found to
have hormonal activity, may contribute to development
of breast cancer.]
In trout, DDT and its relatives/metabolites also have
both estrogenic and anti- activity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12167306&dopt=Abstract
And DDT is merely one of the chemical soup
contaminants found in the now-endangered Stellar sea
lion:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12826388&dopt=Abstract
"..SSL tissues show accumulation of butyltins,
mercury, PCBs, DDTs, chlordanes and hexachlorobenzene.
SSL habitats and prey are contaminated with additional
chemicals including mirex, endrin, dieldrin,
hexachlorocyclohexanes, tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin
(TCDD) and related compounds, cadmium and lead. In
addition, many SSL haulouts and rookeries are located
near other hazards including radioactivity, solvents,
ordnance and chemical weapon dumps..."
Shrimp larvae exposed to DDT have DNA damage:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12568452&dopt=Abstract
>In vitro< DDT exposure damages or induces apoptosis
(cell death) in neural clone cells:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12523960&dopt=Abstract


Yes, it wo

Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed

At 04:43 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as
> professed, but I am sure as
> hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore.
Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was
exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3
hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car with
a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now).
  ^^^

Pun intended?

It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it.  Even 
being in a room where people have been smoking can do it.



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Week 16 NFL Picks

"John D. Giorgis" wrote:
> 
> Thank goodness my horrible season of picking the NFL games is almost over.
>   Here is one of my last gasp attempts to try and pick a perfect slate for
> a single week in the year:
> 
> In Florida, I like TAMPA BAY to continue their domination of Atlanta.
> 
> Up in Minnesota, everyone said that this would be a tough game for the
> Chiefs even before they lost two games.   That hasn't changed, so I'll take
> the VIKINGS.
> 
> On Saturday Night, the Meadowlands will be arockin' in a
> throw-out-the-records rivalry game.   The Patriots in my mind really aren't
> nearly as good as their record shows, having won a ton of very close games
> on some nice bounces of the football, and will be upset.   I'll take the JETS.

You're 1-2 for today.  I wish you better luck tomorrow.

Julia

who was pulling for the Patriots, big-time
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Re: Week 16 NFL Picks


On the bright side, did you know that it can be a lot of fun doing
play-by-play for an infant?
1)  Hold infant in front of you, facing you.

2)  Peer over infant's shoulder to see the TV.

3)  As the play is made, describe it in a high-pitched voice with all
the enthusiasm you can muster.  Between plays, comment on the score, the
field, the coaches, etc. in the same enthusiastic, high-pitched voice.
4)  Enjoy her smiles in reaction to your talking to her like that.  :)

Julia
That was in Three Men and Baby also. Tom Selleck was reading a Sports 
Illustrated article about a boxing match, with blood and other graphic 
details, but in a high voice to entertain the baby.

Back from shopping. Drove to Philly for a computer show and sale, got there 
and found a gun show in progress also. (The kind described in the dreaded 
gun show loophole.) So great fun for both. This is the earliest I've been 
done shopping in ten years. I should get wrapping done tomorrow.

And Atlanta winning! Swoon. Hmm, TB just scored and got the two-point play. 
Spoke too soound?

Kevin T. - VRWC
Off to work
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Re: Non-PC Humor from other lands