RE: Artist of the Decade?
Do you know any black people who listen to the Beasties? Do other rap acts give them shout-outs on record? They are making white music for white people. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't hip-hop. As a matter of fact, in the latest edition of Rolling Stone, a rap artist by the name of Juvenile (or maybe that is the name of his cd, I'm not familiar with him) said that he loved the Beastie's song "Paul Revere" and if there was any song that he would cover, it would be that one (by the way, the article is not in front of me and this is not a direct quote, but what he said was to that effect.) He is black, so I guess the answer to you question is yes SOME black people do listen to the Beasties. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
re: artist of the decade etc.
A little take on Rolling Stone's parlour game, for the Globe and Mail in Toronto. * * * THE ESSENTIAL RECORDINGS OF THE '90s by Greil Marcus et al Rolling Stone, May 13 Reviewed by Carl Wilson ... In which Rolling Stone rushes to judgment in order to beat every other magazine to the end of the year. Hey, if you were about to release a brilliant disc in the later months of 1999, don't bother. The section is launched by Greil Marcus's brief essay on the magazine's Artist of the Decade, Kurt Cobain of Nirvana. This one's no scratch on his definitive RS piece after Cobain's suicide in 1994, merely re-running Marcus's patented line on negation in American music via the epochal Smells Like Teen Spirit. It covers the "artist" part well: "The song is . . . definitively unsettling and a definitive release." But what Marcus misses is the "decade" part: Yes, Cobain dominated a two-year time span, but how did he affect the next five years? In fact, especially in death, Cobain rendered the decades-long underground-vs.-mainstream debate obsolete, forcing us to hear everything from Garth Brooks to Pavement as doubled - inherently self-subverting. Rock's resulting aporia cleared the way for hip hop, as well as for teenyboppers untainted by that original sin. And that, in brief, plus Soundscan, gives us the chart Babel of 1999. Not to mention the Babel of RS's nineties-recordings list, a scattershot rundown on dozens and dozens of albums and afterthoughts on singles (including "Top 10 Songs About Your Butt"). The selections divide evenly between the obvious (PJ Harvey, Beastie Boys, Dr. Dre, Beck), nice surprises (Iris DeMent, Yo La Tengo, Belle Sebastian), and absurdities like Hootie and the Blowfish, Peter Wolf, Billy Joel and anything Touched by a Jagger - the latter few pulled straight from editor Jann Wenner's personal rolodex. Without the guts to confirm or deny any aesthetic agenda, lest someone feel left out, Rolling Stone's list suggests that Wenner's real artist of the decade is none other than Bill Clinton. And when Marcus quotes Cobain saying that he used to expect to be voted "Most Likely to Kill Everyone at a High School Dance," there's a haunting sense that the decade has come full circle - and that Cobain is the least of the betrayed.
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Pushing aside the arbitrary (and silly) nature of this shellgame, tell me why it shouldn't be: Perry Farrell (who commercialized the most interesting aspects of Nirvana's "revolution") Dr. Dre (who made rap safe for white people; God bless Eminem) U2 (who legitimized dance music for young suburban moms with ZOOROPA) Prince (who led artists with committed audiences to the realization that record companies are superfluous while still making vital music) PS: his next record is on a major label ...and it is mind-blowing. Miles Davis said that the greatest musician he ever met was named Prince. Red Hot Chili Peppers (who brought tattooing to the heartland) Hootie and the Blowfish (who brought yuppies away from John Tesh to something approximating rock and roll) PJ Harvey (because she actually made great records, ignored her press and finally had a sandwich) Cesaria Evora (who didn't even know she was making beautiful records for consumerist dissection) Trent Reznor (who tried unsuccessfully to avoid the traps of the celebrity culture while commenting upon it AND fucking fashion models; and making great music) Master P (the first black man since Berry Gordy to keep most of the money; of course he treats his artists like shit) Don Yates (a master of disguise)
Re: Artist of the Decade?
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:24:00 PDT Greg Harness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought your candidate had already won and been declared AOTD months ago. This new little thread is nothing more than a post-mortem on a de facto decision, right? AOTD will retain his title. Umm, I musta missed that one. Can someone whisper it to me? William Cocke Senior Writer HSC Development University of Virginia (804) 924-8432
RE: Artist of the Decade?
You thought Vince Gill, right? And still do. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Kurt Cobain by a country mile. There are very few things Rolling Stone gets right but this is one of them. -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "passenger side" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Artist of the Decade? Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999, 6:48 PM In a message dated 4/21/99 3:00:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Try most pathetic loser of the decade. The guy had nothing interesting to say musically or lyrically and then he blew his brains out. Any alternative selections we P-2ers can offer them. Wow. Do I even bother counterpointing this? Let's just say that whatever Slone said above, consider my opinions the exact opposite. Except the fact that Cobain blew his brains out. That is irrefutable. And really fucking tragic, if you ask me. Obviously, Slone disagrees. Neal Weiss
Re: Artist of the Decade?
At 10:28 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Jerry wrote: I found Nirvana to be way to raw and underproduced for my liking Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. As someone who also appreciates big production, let this fellow traveler just reassure you that Nevermind, despite the culty punk expectations it carries, was...PRODUCED OUT THE ASS Anyone interested in learning about all the production that went into that record--overdubbed and layered guitar parts, composite vocal tracks, double-tracked vocals, seperately recorded drum takes, etc etc etc--should track down a copy of the May 1998 MOJO where band members and producer Butch Vig take us through the album's recording and mixing, track by track. You're right, btw, that Cobain's vocals were never pleasing. But they weren't supposed to be. --david cantwell
Re: Artist of the Decade?
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, David Cantwell wrote: Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. As someone who also appreciates big production, let this fellow traveler just reassure you that Nevermind, despite the culty punk expectations it carries, was...PRODUCED OUT THE ASS Anyone David et al. Thanks for the advice and perhaps, I should give that record another go-around. I also appreciate the reference. Always like Mr. Vig. Remember Fire Town anyone? I think perhaps, Cobain's voice spoiled the overall sound for me and that's why I gave the record such short shrift. NP: Tal Bachman - so far, my #1 top release of the year. Lush, rich.voice reminds me of paul Kelly at times. JC
RE: Artist of the Decade?
Jerry Curry writes:
Remember Fire Town anyone?
Absolutely. Decent first album with a classic song in "Carry the Torch" and
a second album ("The Good Life") that's solid all the way through. Hey
maybe if the next Garbage album flops, we can look forward to a Fire Town
reunion!
--Slonedog
Hey, Krueg! (was Re: Artist of the Decade?)
Jerry Curry wrote: Always like Mr. Vig. Remember Fire Town anyone? This should bring The Krueg out of hiding. Seems I remember some stories about Tom snorting coke with Butch and Fire Town or some such. Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
Re: Artist of the Decade?
I think perhaps, Cobain's voice spoiled the overall sound for me and that's why I gave the record such short shrift. Wow, I tend Cobain's voice *makes* the record. Someone once called him the "human Marshall stack." I couldn't have put it any better. One of the best rock voices to ever come down the pike. NW
Re: Artist of the Decade?
At 05:16 AM 4/22/99 -0500, JP dared us all to explain the artist of the decade should NOT be one of the following: Perry Farrell (who commercialized the most interesting aspects of Nirvana's "revolution") You mean, LEAST interesting, right? Dr. Dre Well, I nominated him myself, so I ain't gonna run him down here... U2 Their best and most influential work was all in the 80s, not the 90s. Prince Ditto. With an explanation point. Red Hot Chili Peppers Hootie and the Blowfish Please, I'm trying my damndest to forget both these bands PJ Harvey I like her records a lot, but it seems to me that, first, an artist of the decade should be somebody whose audience extends beyond you, me, Robert Christgau and that one weird guy at the record store. Cesaria Evora (who didn't even know she was making beautiful records for consumerist dissection) No, precisely because no one knew she was doing it. Trent Reznor (who tried unsuccessfully to avoid the traps of the celebrity culture while commenting upon it AND fucking fashion models; and making great music) As you, say he attempted this UNsuccessfully. Master P Not with Dre on the list. Don Yates (a master of disguise) Now, this is an intriguing nomination, but it's the wrong category. Maybe instead: Turd-Stirrer/Goat-Getter/Curry-Baiter/Midwest Basher of the Year? --david cantwell
RE: Artist of the Decade?
Seriously - It's Dr. Dre. With NWA he took rap music from party music to street poetry with a documentarian stance. Unlike Public Enemy he got his message across without being pedantic. This legitimized "gangsta" rap to the critical establishment AND opened the door for hip-hop's dominance of teen culture. With Ice Cube he revolutionized sampling and rap production- creating an aural cinema of the urban wasteland. His record "The Chronic" stands as perhaps the most influential hip-hop record ever. Inspiring The Roots, Outkast and Nas. He produced several classics, especially "DoggyStyle". And he brought Eminem to the world. (Though a potential strike against him due to its content, "Slim Shady" points toward the inevitable future of white dominance of rap music) Nuff said. I'm right, you're wrong. Na, na, na, nahhh. NP: The Barkers - Burn Your Piano
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Unfortunately, I think we're gonna have to include Garth here. Hie's touched alot of lives and his sales alone prove that. I think he's sold more records/discs than The Beatles or some unfathomable figure. As for most influential artist of all time you gotta include the "gloved one" In terms of thr whole Glam Rock route - Bowie needs to be mentioned. -John ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Unfortunately, I think we're gonna have to include Garth here. Hie's touched alot of lives and his sales alone prove that. I think he's sold more records/discs than The Beatles or some unfathomable figure. Let's see if those records are selling thirty years from now. I don't think you get considered artist of the decade for your marketing skill alone. As for most influential artist of all time you gotta include the "gloved one" I had a dream a few nights ago after seeing some footage of the Jackson 5. In my dream Michael jackson grew up, maturing into a soulman a la Marvin Gaye. No surgery, no wierdness. He became an elder statesman of R B, making credible records, getting the respect of the hip-hop nation. I'm not kidding, i had this dream. Consider what amazing music he could have made. When you see him at twelve you see such soul, charm and talent. What a waste.
RE: Artist of the Decade?
On the rap tip, The Sugar Hill Gang pretty much invented it, so Also, for the 90's The Beasties deserve a shout out... -JF ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
RE: Artist of the Decade?
On the rap tip, The Sugar Hill Gang pretty much invented it, so Also, for the 90's The Beasties deserve a shout out... -JF The Beasties have made a couple of great records. But they have more in common with Pearl Jam than with any rap artist. You can make rap music and still have no idea what hip-hop is. The Tibetan concerts are alterna fests because that's the Beasties audience. They have zero influence on the hip-hop community.
RE: Artist of the Decade?
At 03:08 PM 4/22/99 -0500, JP wrote in defense of Dre: With NWA he took rap music from party music to street poetry with a documentarian stance. Unlike Public Enemy he got his message across without being pedantic. This legitimized "gangsta" rap to the critical establishment AND opened the door for hip-hop's dominance of teen culture. Don't be silly. He primarily did this with Straight Outta Compton--an 80s album. With Ice Cube he revolutionized sampling and rap production- creating an aural cinema of the urban wasteland. Don't be silly. Ice Cube's earliest and most influential records were produced by the Bomb Squad, not Dre. Nuff said. I'm right, you're wrong. Na, na, na, nahhh. But I nominated him FIRST. Na, na, na, nahhh yourownself g. --david cantwell
RE: Artist of the Decade?
JPRiedie writes: Don't be silly. Their most mature and compelling work is Achtung Baby. 1991 If anything, I think U2 has gotten less "mature" during the 90s. Like REM, they seem bent on making fun of themselves to less than hilarious effect. In the 80s, sure they were pretentious, but at least they were sincere. The period from "War" through "Rattle Hum" remains their artistic apex. --Slonedog
RE: Artist of the Decade?
In my dream Michael jackson grew up, maturing into a soulman a la Marvin Gaye. No surgery, no wierdness. Er, ah, "a la Marvin Gaye" and "no weirdness" don't belong in the same paragraph. Good point. but Marvin was more "troubled" than "weird". Still, I hope you got my drift.
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Unfortunately, I think we're gonna have to include Garth here. I don't think you get considered artist of the decade for your marketing skill alone. As much as I don't like him, from a marketing vantage you just don't sell that much of *anything* unless you've struck a chord or gulp, a need, with people. Oh yeah, Ray Davies claimed to have invented heavy metal, so... -JF ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Re: Artist of the Decade/singles/influence
The discussion here breaks down along the atomization of markets since the mid80s, so it makes sense to say that Gill, Dre, Malkmus (Pavement does make sense as the key 90s indie band, though only because they democratized Sonic Youth's late-80s innovations) and the Beasties (who, for various sentimental-social reasons, I actually would love to win the crown, but really can't) all rule different roosts. And the one figure I think transcends that is Cobain: Nirvana's breakthrough changed the music scene irrevocably by destroying the previous loyal opposition and thus altering the basic lines of battle that had stood since 1977, and pretty much everything that's happened on pop charts since has been a chain reaction from Smells Like... Cobain is also pretty much the sole zeitgeist-defining personality in 90s pop (I'm not sure there is a *single* such figure in hip-hop this decade, though there are some contenders, and in country, well, that's Garth - which is a whole other story). As well, Nirvana combined quality and commercial success at an incomparable level for the decade - if The Key had sold like a Garth Brooks album, Jon W's assertion would hold up better, methinks. (AOTD for the 80s by the way is, to my mind, unquestionably Prince.) A thread tie-in I meant to throw into the mix yesterday: Smells Like Teen Spirit is also, on a craft level, one of the few singles of the decade that seems to me to stand up on every level to anything in the afore-bandied-about Golden Age of Singles - throwing down a gauntlet that pretty much all of Nirvana's imitators were far too chickenshit to pick up. By the way, I assume the Cobain-jeerers are willing to discount every other overdose and/or suicide in rock history on the same knee-jerk moralism, right? Janis, Jimi, Ian Curtis, etc. etc., all useless whiners. Carl W. Terry Smith-esque P.S.: David C., altho you're basically right about Madonna, it seems to me the ground had already been created for her to stand on before she arrived - by Patti Smith, Chrissie Hynde and others. (If I had my druthers I'd give all credit to Patti but I don't think we can get away with that...) Yep, Madonna would rank pretty high on the influence scale, but she seems to me more a visionary opportunist than a revolutionary. HOWEVER: Your question about whether Aretha rather than Joni was the key gender-revolutionary in sixties pop was already creeping into my head as I wrote that last post. I'd certainly *prefer* to say it was Aretha - but I wonder if she had the same women-can-be-auteurs impact? Perhaps, but this requires further thinking and historicization; I've just realized that maybe before deciding exactly whose gender-bar-breaking was the most definitive (and I do think this is, as Music Trivia games go, an important one), I should read one of those late-90s books about women-in-music that I've been semi-avoiding. Any recommendations for the best one?
Re: Artist of the Decade?
In a message dated 4/22/99 3:54:58 PM EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh yeah, Ray Davies claimed to have invented heavy metal, so... nope. link wray did.
RE: Artist of the Decade?
At 03:46 PM 4/22/99 -0500, JP wrote: Achtung Baby! is a deathly serious record. It's also their most literate and musical. You know, in some ways this is probably right. I'd nominate either Achtung or Joshua Tree as their best over all albums. But, as far as artist of the 90s goes, Achtung is hardly representative of the band's work this decade--you could argue in fact that it works so well precisely because it's the culmination of what they'd done well all through the 80s. --david cantwell
Re: Artist of the Decade/singles/influence
At 05:00 PM 4/22/99 -0400, Carl wrote: HOWEVER: Your question about whether Aretha rather than Joni was the key gender-revolutionary in sixties pop was already creeping into my head as I wrote that last post. I'd certainly *prefer* to say it was Aretha - but I wonder if she had the same women-can-be-auteurs impact? Perhaps, but this requires further thinking and historicization; I've just realized that maybe before deciding exactly whose gender-bar-breaking was the most definitive (and I do think this is, as Music Trivia games go, an important one), I should read one of those late-90s books about women-in-music that I've been semi-avoiding. Any recommendations for the best one? I don't have a recommendation since I've been avoiding them too. I would recomend Dave marsh's liner notes essay to the Aretha box, however--it does a great job of portraying her as an artist in charge of her own art. Of course, you're probably right that Mithchell was percieved in more of an auteur sense, but this may say more about critical perception than actual fact, about the critical biases in favor of album acts over singles acts, of white women in favor of black women, of what's presented as all-by-myself art vs.collaborative art. --david cantwell
RE: Artist of the Decade/singles/influence
As well, Nirvana combined quality and commercial success at an incomparable level for the decade - if The Key had sold like a Garth Brooks album, Jon W's assertion would hold up better, methinks. If we're talking about the decade, I don't know that Nirvana's sold more albums than Gill; the RIAA database is down right now, but I'll report back. Gill's had a number of multi-platinum albums, though, and is clearly an immense commercial success (The Key is his poorest-selling album so far); he might not have sold as many albums, but though I think that commercial success is a useful criterion in figuring out an AOTD, I don't know that getting too far into the numbers is that productive. For the record, there are others who have combined quality and commercial success in this decade at, I would argue, a higher level than either Gill *or* Nirvana - George Strait, for one, Alan Jackson for another, per that best-seller list - but as big a fan as I am of both of them, Strait was huge well before the 90s, and Jackson doesn't, IMO, have the breadth of achievements that Gill does. He's great, but I don't think he's been as outward-acting as Gill, who's been visible in a number of important areas, like honoring Bill Monroe at the Grammys, reinvigorating the Opry, etc., nor has he been as active in working with others on their records. In any event, I think your point about the atomization of markets is well-taken, Carl. I don't know that there really is an AOTD, as opposed to AsOTD in various fields.
Re: Artist of the Decade/singles/influence
Now that's an erudite summation. But I still can't get my head around Cobain as artist of the decade. His creative achievement, though jarring and influential, doesn't compare to that of the other serious contenders. Besides, the eight year old who runs my house, his seventeen year old babysitter and all her friends, the kids at the sub shop down the road, my ex-girlfriend's 14 year old son and my eighteen year-old sister's boyfriend are all white kids whose primary musical touchstones are rap and new jack, even if they own a couple of Garth Brooks records. These same kids know (but don't neccessarily love)The Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, Bowie, U2 and Prince - all artists of lasting influence whose catalogs are continually discovered by successive waves of college freshman. I asked my babysitter if she liked Nirvana and she said "didn't they have that song with the cheerleaders in the video?". The eight year old looked at me blankly when queried. And my sister's boyfriend was like "that's the guy who killed himself, right?" Before y'all kill me on anecdotal evidence charges, realize that I'm trying to illustrate that the only people listening to Nirvana are critics and white folks between 28 and 40. Unless someone can convince me that teenagers 20 years from now will find Nirvana's music revelatory for themselves (like Abbey Road kicked my ass in 1987, or like my babysitter really getting into Bowie now) I cannot accept his coronation. It's more likely he'll be remembered for being Rolling Stone's Artist of the Decade than he will be for his music. The discussion here breaks down along the atomization of markets since the mid80s, so it makes sense to say that Gill, Dre, Malkmus (Pavement does make sense as the key 90s indie band, though only because they democratized Sonic Youth's late-80s innovations) and the Beasties (who, for various sentimental-social reasons, I actually would love to win the crown, but really can't) all rule different roosts. And the one figure I think transcends that is Cobain: Nirvana's breakthrough changed the music scene irrevocably by destroying the previous loyal opposition and thus altering the basic lines of battle that had stood since 1977, and pretty much everything that's happened on pop charts since has been a chain reaction from Smells Like... Cobain is also pretty much the sole zeitgeist-defining personality in 90s pop (I'm not sure there is a *single* such figure in hip-hop this decade, though there are some contenders, and in country, well, that's Garth - which is a whole other story). As well, Nirvana combined quality and commercial success at an incomparable level for the decade - if The Key had sold like a Garth Brooks album, Jon W's assertion would hold up better, methinks. (AOTD for the 80s by the way is, to my mind, unquestionably Prince.) A thread tie-in I meant to throw into the mix yesterday: Smells Like Teen Spirit is also, on a craft level, one of the few singles of the decade that seems to me to stand up on every level to anything in the afore-bandied-about Golden Age of Singles - throwing down a gauntlet that pretty much all of Nirvana's imitators were far too chickenshit to pick up. By the way, I assume the Cobain-jeerers are willing to discount every other overdose and/or suicide in rock history on the same knee-jerk moralism, right? Janis, Jimi, Ian Curtis, etc. etc., all useless whiners. Carl W. Terry Smith-esque P.S.: David C., altho you're basically right about Madonna, it seems to me the ground had already been created for her to stand on before she arrived - by Patti Smith, Chrissie Hynde and others. (If I had my druthers I'd give all credit to Patti but I don't think we can get away with that...) Yep, Madonna would rank pretty high on the influence scale, but she seems to me more a visionary opportunist than a revolutionary. HOWEVER: Your question about whether Aretha rather than Joni was the key gender-revolutionary in sixties pop was already creeping into my head as I wrote that last post. I'd certainly *prefer* to say it was Aretha - but I wonder if she had the same women-can-be-auteurs impact? Perhaps, but this requires further thinking and historicization; I've just realized that maybe before deciding exactly whose gender-bar-breaking was the most definitive (and I do think this is, as Music Trivia games go, an important one), I should read one of those late-90s books about women-in-music that I've been semi-avoiding. Any recommendations for the best one?
RE: Artist of the Decade?
The Beasties have made a couple of great records. But they have more in common with Pearl Jam than with any rap artist. You can make rap music and still have no idea what hip-hop is. The Tibetan concerts are alterna fests because that's the Beasties audience. They have zero influence on the hip-hop community. I diasagree. They are alternafests because of the *other* bands in the lineup and probably because that's what the majority of fest-going-kids look like. Actually, I was suggesting that The Beasties are influential artists, not rappers perse. I think in terms of their videos, clothing line, and music they've permeated the culture to a degree which has not yet been acknowledged or realized. FYI, some of their hip-hop is more authentic than "authentic" hip-hop. -JF ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
RE: Artist of the Decade?
The Beasties have made a couple of great records. But they have more in common with Pearl Jam than with any rap artist. You can make rap music and still have no idea what hip-hop is. The Tibetan concerts are alterna fests because that's the Beasties audience. They have zero influence on the hip-hop community. I diasagree. They are alternafests because of the *other* bands in the lineup and probably because that's what the majority of fest-going-kids look like. The lineups for those silly concerts are filled with white altern-acts because those people are the Beasties social peers. If the band hung out with The Roots or Mystikal, don't you think that's who'd be playing the show? Do you know any black people who listen to the Beasties? Do other rap acts give them shout-outs on record? They are making white music for white people. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't hip-hop. Actually, I was suggesting that The Beasties are influential artists, not rappers perse. I think in terms of their videos, clothing line, and music they've permeated the culture to a degree which has not yet been acknowledged or realized. FYI, some of their hip-hop is more authentic than "authentic" hip-hop. Do you know the difference between rap and hip-hop?
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Do you know the difference between rap and hip-hop? I don't. Enlighten me.
Re: Artist of the Decade? (My first Beasties rant)
Do you know any black people who listen to the Beasties? Do other rap acts give them shout-outs on record? They are making white music for white people. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't hip-hop. JP Says Leyla Turkkan, former publicist for the Beasties: All the really hardcore hip-hop heads wouldn't publicly admit it, but quietly, they'd all say to me, "Oh my God, the beats on this record are the most unbelievable thing on earth." From Chuck D to LL Cool J to KRS-One, they were all in awe of Paul's Boutique. Says Russell Simmons: Eric B. told me he could steal 15 albums off the Beastie Boys' second album. JP, you're right about the lack of on-record shout-outs for the Boys--as these quotes attest. And you're probably right about them making music for people who generally aren't black. But, if you go to a Beastie Boys concert, I guarantee you that you're gonna see kids, adults, whites, Asians, Latinos, males, females, and several other groups I ain't representing right now. I guess one of the inherent problems with discussing the Beasties as rap artists is the amount of essentialism that must be chopped away before you can discuss the music they create. But, just because black people don't publicly admit to listening to them (or dismiss them) doesn't necessarily mean that what they're creating isn't hip-hop. Of course, I would say that Check Your Head and Ill Communication are more "influenced" by rap than traditional rap, but it could also be argued that what the Beasties were doing with those albums is redefining what was possible with not only rap, but also rock 'n' roll. I will say this, though. You make the mistake and judge a man by his race you go through life with egg on your face. Lance, amateur Beasties-ologist . . .
Re: Artist of the Decade? (My first Beasties rant)
I love "Paul's Boutique" - in fact I might call it one of the more important albums of the last quarter century, but artist of the decade? No way! Since Paul's Boutique, it's really only been select moments of brilliance in my opinion. In fact, I couldn't find a damn thing to like about the latest album, and only a few things on the last few. Paul's Boutique was the last thing they did where I can still put it on and listen from track 1 till the end, and there aren't many of those records that can do that. "Mighty Joe Moon" does that for me. So does every Pavement record and both Sparklehorse albums do it too (even though "vivadixie" is better). I could go on and on and on
Re: Artist of the Decade? (Beasties rant)
Lance wrote: I guess one of the inherent problems with discussing the Beasties as rap artists is the amount of essentialism that must be chopped away before you can discuss the music they create. Indeed, which is why I wish they qualified as AOTDs to more than a small segment (multiracial but pretty much all college-qualified, I'd assert without backup) of the population... Though I'd enjoy the lesson even more if the previously mentioned criminally underappreciated Michael Franti (Spearhead, Disposable Heroes, Beatnigs) were its object. carl w
RE: Artist of the Decade/singles/influence
I wrote: If we're talking about the decade, I don't know that Nirvana's sold more albums than Gill; the RIAA database is down right now, but I'll report back. And though the database is still down (wake up over there!), on taking another look at the best-sellers list, I see that Nirvana clocks in at 23 million units (a million less than AJ, which I find surprising), whereas Gill must be somewhere under 20 million. Still, as I went on to say: Gill's had a number of multi-platinum albums, though, and is clearly an immense commercial success... And just to quantify that, he's got 6 of them, which is immense commercial success in my book g. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
Re: Artist of the Decade?
JP wrote; The lineups for those silly concerts are filled with white altern-acts because those people are the Beasties social peers. If the band hung out with The Roots or Mystikal, don't you think that's who'd be playing the show? Not to take issue with JP's main point about the Beasties not having much influence w/in 90's black music, but to be fair to their booking policy for the Tibetan Freedom Concerts, I do know-just from looking at my TFC CD I have that they have had a fair share of black hip-hop artists on the bill. To wit; A Tribe Called Quest, KRS-1, Biz Markie, Lee Perry and Mad Professor and Robotiks band, De La Soul, The Fugees, Ben Harper are all on the TFC 3-CD release from the '97 concert. Inside the booklet is a "Free-Tibet" rap written by Chuck D. as well, (who I'm also pretty sure has played at least one of the TFC's as well.) I do think Neal has a pretty valid point about how powerful the Beasties' influence has been in breaking various elements of hip-hop culture into the white middle-class, their whole Grand Royal label-'zine-clothing mini-empire is pretty good testament to that. But I'd also say that the Beasties have been as much a rock as a rap act in this decade MC Dan Bentele
RE: Artist of the Decade? JEFF TWEEDY
I have been thinking about this for a long time...it makes me crazy, but I am gonna have to go with Jeff Tweedy on this one. 1/2 of the genius behind Uncle Tupelo, prolific songwriter throughout the decade, I cant think of a song I dont like...even the hokey ones are at the very least clever and not forced, Wilco has evolved into one hell of a rock band. Going from a pop-tinged Uncle Tupelo sound to this new direction of what I would call post-pop. I hate to genre-ize, but with Beck, Joe Henry and Wilco doing what they are doing, essentially taking folk/dark pop and fusing it with electronics and adding an edge without becoming a cartoon or a novelty, Wilco stands to be as much of an influence to this sound as UT was to alt.country and that has a whole lot to do with Jeff Tweedy. Outside of Wilco, Jeff has been outstanding as a member of Golden Smog as a songwriter (Radio King being one of the finest songs he has written) and as a performer. His solo shows are something that is more religious than relatable to music, his catalog of songs cant really be matched through the 90's and his quest to re-invent, discover and alter the norm are unpresidented in this decade. Most importantly, I think people understate the brilliance of Mermaid Avenue. Wilco and Billy Bragg put music to Woody Guthrie's lyrics (just to have this idea and the balls to attempt such an endeavor is worth noting) and did it so perfectly and so right that the timeless lyrics became timeless songs. Jeff hasnt sold a million records, he hasnt created "alternative music" (which I think people give too much credit to Cobain for doing...I'll take early Soundgarden over Nirvana any day for my grunge fix), he hasnt been a glamorous heroin addict media whore, he hasnt dabbled in fads or the quick radio friendly buck, and most importantly, he hasnt sold out. I really cant think of who, in any genre, has really been as creative and original, prolific, and of such high quality musically and socially as Jeff Tweedy over the last 10 years. Alex " I apologize about the choppiness of this diatribe as I am writing it in unix mail and I didnt outline my thoughts well before I started writing...If you all would like, I could do about 2 pages on each aspect of Jeff's musical career as I have seen it and more reasons why he is the artist of the decade, from UT through Summer Teeth...I will save you from this thankfully, but will address all challenges if so requested" Millar
Re: Artist of the Decade/singles/influence
and just to really blow everyone's mind, please note that last month Steve Earle earned his "GOLD" status for Guitar Town!! That came out in 1986 and has only sold 500,000 copies. What the heck is goin' on Kate (happy to have contributed to the 500k) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wrote: If we're talking about the decade, I don't know that Nirvana's sold more albums than Gill; the RIAA database is down right now, but I'll report back. And though the database is still down (wake up over there!), on taking another look at the best-sellers list, I see that Nirvana clocks in at 23 million units (a million less than AJ, which I find surprising), whereas Gill must be somewhere under 20 million. Still, as I went on to say: Gill's had a number of multi-platinum albums, though, and is clearly an immense commercial success... And just to quantify that, he's got 6 of them, which is immense commercial success in my book g.
Re: Artist of the Decade?
In a message dated 4/22/99 7:19:35 PM EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do think Neal has a pretty valid point about how powerful the Beasties' influence has been in breaking various elements of hip-hop culture into the white middle-class, their whole Grand Royal label-'zine-clothing mini-empire is pretty good testament to that. But I'd also say that the Beasties have been as much a rock as a rap act in this decade Hey Dan, thanks for those props (aren't I *so* down with the lingo), but I never said nothing of the sort. I've been too busy harping about the greatness that was St. Kurt. NW
Re: Artist of the Decade/singles/influence
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 22-Apr-99 Re: Artist of the Decade/si.. by JP [EMAIL PROTECTED] Before y'all kill me on anecdotal evidence charges, realize that I'm trying to illustrate that the only people listening to Nirvana are critics and white folks between 28 and 40. Uh, as someone who has taught several hundred teenagers over the past four years, I can safely refute that statement. Carl Z.
Re: Artist of the Decade? (My first Beasties rant)
The local hip-hop promoter is a buddy of mine. He has lectured me over chronic many times about the difference between rap and hip-hop. As far as I can remember hip-hop is a cultural movement (analogous to rock and roll in the fifties) while rap is simply a form of music. The primary elements of hip-hop seem to be cultural cross-pollination, societal marginalization and opposition to the dominant culture. There's also a lot of talk of racial harmony, anti-consumerism and weed as well as more than a hint of spirituality (surprisingly often Islam) and talk of social change. Of course every one of Dave's homies has his own variant on this and they aren't all so positive. The only constant is the marginalization. I might be going out a a limb, but 3 rich Jewish kids from Manhattan are probably not gonna qualify. Not that anybody I know is wasting their time figuring out who's keeping it real and who's not. It's just that the Beasties spend a lot more time with Sean Lennon and Billy Corgan than they do with the Wu Tang and Dr. Dre. Mike D. isn't guesting on many No Limit productions. And the social change they advocate is fairly innocuous and harmless to the status quo. That's not to say they don't make great records. Paul's Boutique is behind only Abbey Road, Sign O' the Times and Gone on my list of all time faves.
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Jerry said: I think perhaps, Cobain's voice spoiled the overall sound for me and that's why I gave the record such short shrift. There's nothing wrong with not liking a recording because you don't like the vocals...maybe that statement needs to be repeated g If the voice or the vocal stylings make you cringe, then no amount of fancy licks and grandiose production will make you listen over and over. It also depends on some internal orientation. Some people gravitate toward instrumentation and some toward vocals. I find it very difficult to listen to Iris DeMent. I just do not like her voice and no amount of brandishing or analytical breakdowns of musical substance by others will convince me otherwise. I thought "Nevermind" was a decent album and Cobain's vocals do not annoy me; except I think we're caught up (once again) in making a legend out of a poor guy who obviously did not value his own life. James Dean syndrome aside,yes a movement was launched by Nirvana, but in looking back through the nineties, was alt.rock really THE predominant form of music which influenced and sold...or after all the dust settles, could it really be rap? Tera (who would probably like rap if they'd just sing and quit ripping off old rock riffs - but that's be a totally different style, wouldn't it?)
Re: Artist of the Decade?
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Well, I'd take him over Alejandro Escovedo, that's for sure.g--don
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Steve Malkmus. I see a thread developing here.
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Here, here, Don! -Original Message- From: Don Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: passenger side [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 6:08 PM Subject: Re: Artist of the Decade? On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Well, I'd take him over Alejandro Escovedo, that's for sure.g--don
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Tarhut Jeff: Steve Malkmus. Ooh, good one. I'm torn between Malkmus or Jay Farrar. Steve Kirsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] np: Damnations TX ___ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Re: Artist of the Decade?
In a message dated 4/21/99 3:00:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Try most pathetic loser of the decade. The guy had nothing interesting to say musically or lyrically and then he blew his brains out. Any alternative selections we P-2ers can offer them. Wow. Do I even bother counterpointing this? Let's just say that whatever Slone said above, consider my opinions the exact opposite. Except the fact that Cobain blew his brains out. That is irrefutable. And really fucking tragic, if you ask me. Obviously, Slone disagrees. Neal Weiss
Re: Artist of the Decade?
What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Try most pathetic loser of the decade. The guy had nothing interesting to say musically or lyrically and then he blew his brains out. Any alternative selections we P-2ers can offer them. Wow. Do I even bother counterpointing this? Let's just say that whatever Slone said above, consider my opinions the exact opposite. Except the fact that Cobain blew his brains out. That is irrefutable. And really fucking tragic, if you ask me. Obviously, Slone disagrees. Neal Weiss Um . . . what you said. Twice. Lance . . .
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Wow...I disliked Curt Cobain's music and I disliked Nirvana as well. _In Utero_ particulary grated on me. However, I think I would agree that he's the artist of the 1990's. He was extremely influential and basically defined alterna-rock and honed the entire grunge sound. Hell, on the backs of that sound an entire radio format developed. Yep, he was pretty big alright and even though I didn't care for his music, I sure do respect him AND I feel a great deal of empathy over his personal struggles. It certainly would have been nice to have had him around for another 30-40 yrs. I would have been curious to have seen which musical avenues he would have explored. I for one, found Nirvana's Unplugged set to be welldamn good. Yes, Cobain was certainly overexposed and harbored great personal issues but I don't think that diminishes his impact upon 90's music in any way, shape, or form. NP: Cruzados - self-titled JC
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 21-Apr-99 Re: Artist of the Decade? by Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, I think I would agree that he's the artist of the 1990's. He was extremely influential and basically defined alterna-rock and honed the entire grunge sound. Hell, on the backs of that sound an entire radio format developed. He also was very important to how music got marketed, and which artists got signed and dropped by major labels. Two other artists of great influence come to mind: Dr. Dre Garth. My personal AOTD is still Mark Eitzel. Didn't we have this discussion 'round about the time those aging hipsters at No Depression chose Alejandro Escovedo over Neil Young as AOTD? Carl Z.
Re: Artist of the Decade?
BTW, I also happen to think Cobain was a pretty fabulous craftsman. Jerry, wasn't he poppy enough for you? Carl Z. NPIMH: "More Than a Feeling"...no wait, that's "Smells Like Teen Spirit"
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Dittos to all the Cobain support. But, though I'd need to think much harder about it, my gut reaction tells me the artist of the decade might just have to be...Dr. Dre. --david cantwell
Re: Artist of the Decade?
At 09:33 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote: BTW, I also happen to think Cobain was a pretty fabulous craftsman. Jerry, wasn't he poppy enough for you? Kurt never worked with Jeff Lynne and Jerry's bitter. Jeff Miles of Music mail order http://www.milesofmusic.com FREE printed Catalog: (818) 883-9975 fax: (818) 992-8302, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alt-Country, rockabilly, bluegrass, folk, power pop and tons more.
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Where's Weisberger to ask about criteria? g If we don't care how long in the 90s an artist was actively recording in a national arena (ie Cobain was active from 1990-1993), then I'd suggest Gillian Welch for AOTD. If we are looking at ten years of performance, I give you one name - Emmylou. ~Greg ___ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
RE: Artist of the Decade?
Where's Weisberger to ask about criteria? g Hey, I made my nomination during the Escovedo go-round, and I haven't seen any reason to rethink it - in fact, I've seen lots of reasons to confirm it. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Hey there, Slonedog... What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Try most pathetic loser of the decade. The guy had nothing interesting to say musically or lyrically and then he blew his brains out. Any alternative selections we P-2ers can offer them. Wow. Do I even bother counterpointing this? Let's just say that whatever Slone said above, consider my opinions the exact opposite. Except the fact that Cobain blew his brains out. That is irrefutable. And really fucking tragic, if you ask me. Obviously, Slone disagrees. Neal Weiss I'm with Neal on this, and there are a few conspiracy type folks who believe the last part (him blowing his brains out) is arguable as well. (murder, police cover up, bla bla bla). The artist of the decade is, of course, The Beastie Boys. Later... CK ___ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Re: Artist of the Decade?
Jon Weisberger wrote: Hey, I made my nomination during the Escovedo go-round, and I haven't seen any reason to rethink it - in fact, I've seen lots of reasons to confirm it. I thought your candidate had already won and been declared AOTD months ago. This new little thread is nothing more than a post-mortem on a de facto decision, right? AOTD will retain his title. ~Greg PS If the ballot box does open slightly, I'm votin for Emmylou ___ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
RE: Artist of the Decade?
I thought your candidate had already won and been declared AOTD months ago. I hope so, but I figure it's not official until it's on the cover of No Depression. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
Re: Artist of the Decade?
The artist of the decade is, of course, The Beastie Boys. Later... CK I agree, and not just because I'm finishing up a paper on the Boys at this very moment g. As far as I'm concerned, the decade of the 1990's really began with the release of Paul's Boutique, and nothing released since then has surpassed it in either musicality, imagination, or ambition. As Q-Tip said, "The Beasties are the Bugs Bunny of hip-hop." Classic, baby, classic. Good call, Chris. Lance . . .
RE: Artist of the Decade?
At 12:10 AM 4/22/99 -0400, you wrote: Where's Weisberger to ask about criteria? g Hey, I made my nomination during the Escovedo go-round, and I haven't seen any reason to rethink it - in fact, I've seen lots of reasons to confirm it. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger You thought Vince Gill, right?
Re: Artist of the Decade?
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Carl Abraham Zimring wrote: BTW, I also happen to think Cobain was a pretty fabulous craftsman. Jerry, wasn't he poppy enough for you? Naw Carl, You'll have to visit with my evil pop counterpart, Bill silvers. He likes his pop crunchy, I like it lush and overdubbed all to hell. I found Nirvana to be way to raw and underproduced for my liking. Also, I found Cobain's voclas to be less than pleasing. His songs had a particular urgency particularly given what we know about him in hindsight. I wih he was still making music though because he's one of those intriguing artists that I wait and see (and hope) they do something that entralls me. Peace, JC
Re: Artist of the Decade?
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jeff Weiss wrote: At 09:33 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote: BTW, I also happen to think Cobain was a pretty fabulous craftsman. Jerry, wasn't he poppy enough for you? Kurt never worked with Jeff Lynne and Jerry's bitter. Holy Moley, I'm picturing the possibilities in my head. Wow, that could have been something, no? Actually, Cobain's career didn't need saving like Petty, Orbison, Harrison, Edmunds, et al. He would have come around eventually and Lynne would have gotten him back on top o' the charts! g Night all, Jerry
