[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[ben via cctalk]

On 2024-07-02 6:42 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote:

Totally opposite.  GSP rates from the US to UK were crazy cheap.
I sold a bunch of items.   Compared to USPS rates they were 1/3 often.


Again I am talking about getting stuff from the UK to the US. Generally 
speaking it seems like shipping from the US to anywhere (except maybe China) is 
cheaper than the opposite direction. I.e. for me to ship to Canada, Australia, 
Europe generally is much cheaper than if I was to buy the same item and have 
them ship it to me from those destinations. YMMV.

-Ali


But are we dealing in rack mount equipment here?
This mini looks rather large to ship. 
https://retrocomputingforum.com/t/20-bit-mini-ge-225-spotted-in-canberra-vcf/4234/2

Ben.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Ali via cctalk]

> Totally opposite.  GSP rates from the US to UK were crazy cheap.
> I sold a bunch of items.   Compared to USPS rates they were 1/3 often.

Again I am talking about getting stuff from the UK to the US. Generally 
speaking it seems like shipping from the US to anywhere (except maybe China) is 
cheaper than the opposite direction. I.e. for me to ship to Canada, Australia, 
Europe generally is much cheaper than if I was to buy the same item and have 
them ship it to me from those destinations. YMMV.

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Tony Jones via cctalk]

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:28 PM Ali via cctalk  wrote:

> > seller.* While some categories are excluded from eIS, there is
> > absolutely positively no reason for US sellers to not sell abroad the
> > majority of categories with it.
>
> Except cost, time, and of course poor tracking. I haven't used eIS to ship
> from the US but GSP (which I believe the same thing) to get stuff to the US
> specially from the UK. I have found in general you pay more
>

Totally opposite.  GSP rates from the US to UK were crazy cheap.
I sold a bunch of items.   Compared to USPS rates they were 1/3 often.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Ali via cctalk]

> seller.* While some categories are excluded from eIS, there is
> absolutely positively no reason for US sellers to not sell abroad the
> majority of categories with it.

Except cost, time, and of course poor tracking. I haven't used eIS to ship
from the US but GSP (which I believe the same thing) to get stuff to the US
specially from the UK. I have found in general you pay more, it takes
longer, and there is less transparency. It is a good option to expand market
reach for small sellers in that it removes headache, cost, and learning
curve but the customer ends up paying for the seller's ease. However, if the
alternative is not have the opportunity to get an item then it is of course
worth it.

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Ali via cctalk]

> Yes, the Chinese government does subsidise exports. So do
> most countries.
>=20

Actually my understanding was the other way around. That is, the US =
government is subsidizing (or at least providing preferential rates) to =
China for shipping. It actually came up as a point of contention during =
the Trump's presidency:

"China is still considered a =E2=80=9Ctransitional=E2=80=9D country by =
the UPU, which means it enjoys a lower rate for sending mail to a =
developed nation like the US. As a result, mail services from China to =
the US cost less than Americans are charged by their own postal service =
for a comparable domestic delivery."

-Ali=20

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Stuff Received via cctalk]

On 2024-07-02 16:47, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote:

ben says:

Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA.  Now
it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA.


Several points for you and others who buy or sell from the US:


If shipping from the US to CA, ask the shipper to use USPS.  Customs is 
usually handled within Canada Post but a lot of times, they simply let 
it go through.


S.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Peter Corlett via cctalk]

On Mon, Jul 01, 2024 at 09:06:47PM -0400, cz via cctalk wrote:
> Actually I am travelling to France in a few weeks and there is an RM80
> platter HDA I could pick up. What is the complexity of just checking it as
> baggage? Do I have to declare it at Customs if the value is like zilch?

I don't know which country you're in, but I'll just asssume the USA as
that's just how this list rolls. There's a duty free amount of (IIRC) $800
below which you don't have to make a customs declaration, or at least don't
have to pay duty. Fags and booze have different rules and limits, but you
could probably argue that the 200-pack of Gitanes and a bottle of Chartreuse
are actually munitions and therefore part of your Second Amendment rights.

There is a machine which I want which is extremely rare outside of the UK,
sellers who ship internationally charge more than I particularly care to
pay, and this might be the reason I finally crack and set foot back on that
benighted island to pick it up in person. If I do, I'll likely blow the €300
import duty limit[0] by some margin on return to the Netherlands.


[0] Or €430 if I fly or take the ferry, but the Eurostar is a no-brainer for
many reasons. The 21% VAT on the €130 difference is only €27.30, which
is about the same as a small coffee at Heathrow these days. (There is no
import duty on most consumer electrical tat such as computers.)

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Tony Jones via cctalk]

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 2:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> Postal rates between countries have long be determined by treaty.  Used
> to be the IPU (International Postal Union), but is now the UPU
> (Universal Postal Union), which is an agency within the UN.  The general
> idea is for postal rates to be independent of politics.
>

Previous US president forced a re-eval of this.   Which is why now if you
buy from AliExpress it's all third party shipper with sometimes USPS only
handling the last mile.
It used to all be China Post but the US was getting a horrid deal.

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17996378/trump-china-universal-postal-union-treaty


> By default, eBay US listings since last year have eBay International
> Shipping (eIS) enabled. Any international sale goes to a US eBay depot,
> which forwards the item to the customer, and handles customs documentation.
> *All returns are handled by eBay and not paid by the seller.* While some
> categories are excluded from eIS, there is absolutely positively no reason
> for US sellers to not sell abroad the majority of categories with it.


Under the old Global Shipping Program there were still some odd cases where
a seller could be hit with a SNAD claim but under the new EIS it's
basically impossible.  eBay just eats it in all cases.   Of course you'll
get barred from the program if you have too many returns or other negative
stats.  Under the GSP I had a case where an item of mine got
"lost",  everyone was made whole and the item appeared again from a
different seller (who'd bought it from an auction) and he just used my same
photos.   Funny.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 2:02 PM Yeechang Lee via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> * By default, eBay US listings since last year have eBay International
> Shipping (eIS) enabled. Any international sale goes to a US eBay depot,
> which forwards the item to the customer, and handles customs documentation.
> *All returns are handled by eBay and not paid by the seller.* While some
> categories are excluded from eIS, there is absolutely positively no reason
> for US sellers to not sell abroad the majority of categories with it.
>

I have always shipped to anywhere in the world that eBay allows and rarely
ever had a problem with it.  Everything was made substantially easier (and
cheaper) with eBay International Standard Delivery, and now with eIS.  The
only real problem I ever encountered was a Chinese address that I just
could not get eBay to recognize (after a failed attempt where the package
was picked up by UPS and then returned the next day because they couldn't
read the address on the all-Chinese label...I still don't understand why
they didn't just scan it and figure out where it's going that way) but the
buyer provided a Hong Kong address instead and that fixed things.

The only added step for selling to a foreign buyer on eBay was filling a
couple boxes with information for the customs form, which pretty much
already had the HS code filled out.  You just needed to fill in the actual
weight of the product (vs. the product+packaging).  Very simple.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 7/2/24 13:40, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
> I was once told that the Chinese government subsidises post in exchange for
> getting prompt tax returns. Don't know how true that is.
> 
> There's also some sort of agreement between postal services that means
> every country gets uncharged local deliveries in the destination countries
> in exchange for uncharged local deliveries in china. I think this is how
> the subsidy works - the chinese post being government owned can arrange
> their accounting so they don't have to balance these sums out. Thus
> exporters can aggregate their deliveries into a bulk carrier (hence the
> delay that's longer than DHL/UPS) and pay nothing for the last leg.

Postal rates between countries have long be determined by treaty.  Used
to be the IPU (International Postal Union), but is now the UPU
(Universal Postal Union), which is an agency within the UN.  The general
idea is for postal rates to be independent of politics.

An interesting aside with regards to international postal rates is the
story of one Charles Ponzi.

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Yeechang Lee via cctalk]

ben says:
> Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA.  Now
> it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA.

Several points for you and others who buy or sell from the US:

* Tell your sellers about Pirate Ship, and tell them to enable Simple Export 
rate . This is by far the 
cheapest method I know of other than eIS (below) to export from the US to most 
countries, although I do recommend insurance for more valuable shipments or 
less-advanced destinations.

* If using UPS, Standard is not actually cheaper than other methods because of 
the brokerage fee. The air shipment methods, Worldwide Expedited/Saver/etc., 
include the brokerage fee.

* The best tool I've seen for searching for HS codes is 
.

* By default, eBay US listings since last year have eBay International Shipping 
(eIS) enabled. Any international sale goes to a US eBay depot, which forwards 
the item to the customer, and handles customs documentation. *All returns are 
handled by eBay and not paid by the seller.* While some categories are excluded 
from eIS, there is absolutely positively no reason for US sellers to not sell 
abroad the majority of categories with it.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Adrian Godwin via cctalk]

I was once told that the Chinese government subsidises post in exchange for
getting prompt tax returns. Don't know how true that is.

There's also some sort of agreement between postal services that means
every country gets uncharged local deliveries in the destination countries
in exchange for uncharged local deliveries in china. I think this is how
the subsidy works - the chinese post being government owned can arrange
their accounting so they don't have to balance these sums out. Thus
exporters can aggregate their deliveries into a bulk carrier (hence the
delay that's longer than DHL/UPS) and pay nothing for the last leg.


On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 8:27 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It becomes a political discussion. On one hand the US is all about
> "free trade" (when it is an issue of selling US products abroad)
> but then the US imposes trade barriers against other countries.
>
> Yes, the Chinese government does subsidise exports. So do
> most countries.
>
> Julf
>
>
> On 02/07/2024 21:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
> >> Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen
> >> somewhat with more sellers charging for postage.
> >
> > eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low.
> >
> > Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports?
> > Does that influence the balance of trade?  (and demise of USA industry?)
> >
> >
> > Decades ago, USA was concerned about "dumping" (charging excessively low
> > prices for exports to USA).  They decided that RAM was being "dumped",
> "in
> > order to drive out USA competition", so USA set up punitive tariffs on
> > handheld power tools, and LCD panels (which contributed to the
> elimination
> > of laptop manufacturing in USA).
> > I don't understand why the punitive tariffs were not on the items being
> > "abused".
> > Jerry Pournelle said, "How get we get them to dump Mercedes?"
> >
> > --
> > Grumpy Ol' Fred   ci...@xenosoft.com
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[ben via cctalk]

On 2024-07-02 1:05 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:

Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen
somewhat with more sellers charging for postage.


eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low.


Keep it that way, I need more IC's for a 16 bit computer.


Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports?
Does that influence the balance of trade?  (and demise of USA industry?)


Now we talk about it? HOW many clone APPLE II's do we need to return.
Why not the "hunger marketing" of APPLE?

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Johan Helsingius via cctalk]

It becomes a political discussion. On one hand the US is all about
"free trade" (when it is an issue of selling US products abroad)
but then the US imposes trade barriers against other countries.

Yes, the Chinese government does subsidise exports. So do
most countries.

Julf


On 02/07/2024 21:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:

Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen
somewhat with more sellers charging for postage.


eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low.

Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports?
Does that influence the balance of trade?  (and demise of USA industry?)


Decades ago, USA was concerned about "dumping" (charging excessively low
prices for exports to USA).  They decided that RAM was being "dumped", "in
order to drive out USA competition", so USA set up punitive tariffs on
handheld power tools, and LCD panels (which contributed to the elimination
of laptop manufacturing in USA).
I don't understand why the punitive tariffs were not on the items being
"abused".
Jerry Pournelle said, "How get we get them to dump Mercedes?"

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:

Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen
somewhat with more sellers charging for postage.


eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low.

Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports?
Does that influence the balance of trade?  (and demise of USA industry?)


Decades ago, USA was concerned about "dumping" (charging excessively low 
prices for exports to USA).  They decided that RAM was being "dumped", "in 
order to drive out USA competition", so USA set up punitive tariffs on 
handheld power tools, and LCD panels (which contributed to the elimination 
of laptop manufacturing in USA).
I don't understand why the punitive tariffs were not on the items being 
"abused".

Jerry Pournelle said, "How get we get them to dump Mercedes?"

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

"I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost"

Might be worth investigating MyUS.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:42 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Brexit made a big difference to postage costs from EU to UK but I don't
> think affected US costs much. However eBay's US all-inclusive postage
> seemed very expensive compared with USPS, and many sellers using
> independent methods have now got very expensive too. I'm not sure if prices
> have risen to match or if there's some other influence.
> Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen
> somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. I think eBay and
> Aliexpress are managing (surcharging) the increased import costs that UK
> and other governments are imposing.
>
> I recall getting a huge 16500B from the US a few years ago for a fairly
> reasonable shipping cost but now just the plug-in cards have shipping
> prices of $100 - often more than the card.
>
> I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage
> costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast.
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:42 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28 PM ben via cctalk 
> > wrote:
> > > On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > > > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
> > > > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
> > > > then.
> >
> > Mike, I do remember.  I still have that motherboard on the shelf over
> > my work area at home.  I never did get a stable composite adapter made
> > down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand).  The board
> > was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter.
> >
> > The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box.
> >
> > > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole
> > > nobody ships stuff back. :)
> >
> > Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that
> > goes down has to go back.  There's millions of pounds of sorted waste
> > that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category
> > "Electronic Scrap".
> >
> > -ethan
> >

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Not an unreasonable idea with today's drones...

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 10:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On 7/1/24 19:04, Wayne S wrote:
> > Hda weighs about 50lbs so you aren’t carrying it very far.
>
> Well, a trebuchet then.  How wide is the Detroit river at its narrowest?
>
> Seriously, the US-Canada border is over 5,000 miles long, with plenty of
> opportunity for slipping stuff across, even if it's just tossed over
> someone's backyard fence.
>
> Point Roberts, WA is notable for being accessible by land only by
> traveling through Canada.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

International shipping is black magic and voodoo.

I live in the US and own two cars from the other side of the Atlantic 
that were not sold new in the US. Because of this, I buy a lot of parts 
from international vendors, mostly from three in the UK. If I get stuff 
from them, it usually arrives in 48 hours and shipping costs are less 
that two day shipping from US vendors (aside from Amazon). A full 
exhaust system in a box taller than me arrived 40 hours after I ordered 
it and the shipping was $150.


But from other vendors and individual sellers, shipping is expensive. 
And, between shipping and import duties, it is uneconomical for me to 
sell stuff to the UK. Some people aren't even willing to pay shipping 
only. I gave a VME SMD disk controller to someone in Scotland and the 
lowest price that I found to ship it was $90 (but they needed the 
controller so ...).


alan

P.S. A note for those within the US who need to ship something big or 
awkward west - I will be transporting a truck full of rally car parts 
from (barely) upstate NY to the Seattle area, probably via I-80, I-90, 
I-94, then back on I-90 at the end of August. I can make room if you 
have something to some vintage hardware to move.


On 7/2/24 4:35 AM, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:

Brexit made a big difference to postage costs from EU to UK but I don't
think affected US costs much. However eBay's US all-inclusive postage
seemed very expensive compared with USPS, and many sellers using
independent methods have now got very expensive too. I'm not sure if prices
have risen to match or if there's some other influence.
Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen
somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. I think eBay and
Aliexpress are managing (surcharging) the increased import costs that UK
and other governments are imposing.

I recall getting a huge 16500B from the US a few years ago for a fairly
reasonable shipping cost but now just the plug-in cards have shipping
prices of $100 - often more than the card.

I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage
costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:42 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk 
wrote:


On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28 PM ben via cctalk 
wrote:

On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
then.

Mike, I do remember.  I still have that motherboard on the shelf over
my work area at home.  I never did get a stable composite adapter made
down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand).  The board
was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter.

The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box.


Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole
nobody ships stuff back. :)

Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that
goes down has to go back.  There's millions of pounds of sorted waste
that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category
"Electronic Scrap".

-ethan

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Jacob Ritorto via cctalk]

Ha, cool, Fred.  I just recently in 2022 I showed up for my Pennsylvania to
San Francisco flight with a 1969 VW MicroBus crankcase (with its guts) in a
large box, hand carried it (oof) into the airport and sent it through as an
additional checked bag for, I think, $50 additional on the spot.  Astounded
that that actually still worked.  Swapped out the top end in my buddy's
gravel driveway in Tiburon and it's back in service.  Can't say that I 100%
"enjoyed" this particular instance of the old fashioned thrifty way of
doing things, but it is kinda bragable :)

On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 at 23:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> Airline baggage used to be a good deal.
> Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked.
>
> Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush
> shipping.
>
>
> I remember flying cross country with a pair of VW cylinder heads, two
> clutch disks, some hand tools, and a loaf of french bread, in order to do
> a clutch on my parent's bug, and a valve job on their Ghia.
>
> Even counting air fare, and 3 hours rental of a floor jack (optional),
> with a few hours work, I saved them a substantial amount of money.
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Adrian Godwin via cctalk]

Brexit made a big difference to postage costs from EU to UK but I don't
think affected US costs much. However eBay's US all-inclusive postage
seemed very expensive compared with USPS, and many sellers using
independent methods have now got very expensive too. I'm not sure if prices
have risen to match or if there's some other influence.
Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen
somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. I think eBay and
Aliexpress are managing (surcharging) the increased import costs that UK
and other governments are imposing.

I recall getting a huge 16500B from the US a few years ago for a fairly
reasonable shipping cost but now just the plug-in cards have shipping
prices of $100 - often more than the card.

I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage
costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:42 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28 PM ben via cctalk 
> wrote:
> > On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
> > > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
> > > then.
>
> Mike, I do remember.  I still have that motherboard on the shelf over
> my work area at home.  I never did get a stable composite adapter made
> down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand).  The board
> was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter.
>
> The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box.
>
> > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole
> > nobody ships stuff back. :)
>
> Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that
> goes down has to go back.  There's millions of pounds of sorted waste
> that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category
> "Electronic Scrap".
>
> -ethan
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:
> On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
> > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
> > then.

Mike, I do remember.  I still have that motherboard on the shelf over
my work area at home.  I never did get a stable composite adapter made
down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand).  The board
was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter.

The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box.

> Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole
> nobody ships stuff back. :)

Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that
goes down has to go back.  There's millions of pounds of sorted waste
that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category
"Electronic Scrap".

-ethan

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Airline baggage used to be a good deal.
Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked.
Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush
shipping.


On Mon, 1 Jul 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I often took the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with a Samsonite case
loaded with 6 10.5" reels of tape--and the reverse course as well.
Something about bandwidth?


Well, Tannenbaum's adage was about a STATION WAGON "hurtling" down the 
highway, so comparing airflight introduces other variables.  :-)

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 7/1/24 20:18, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Airline baggage used to be a good deal.
> Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked.
> 
> Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush
> shipping.

I often took the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with a Samsonite case
loaded with 6 10.5" reels of tape--and the reverse course as well.

Something about bandwidth?

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Airline baggage used to be a good deal.
Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked.

Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush 
shipping.



I remember flying cross country with a pair of VW cylinder heads, two 
clutch disks, some hand tools, and a loaf of french bread, in order to do 
a clutch on my parent's bug, and a valve job on their Ghia.


Even counting air fare, and 3 hours rental of a floor jack (optional), 
with a few hours work, I saved them a substantial amount of money.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 7/1/24 19:04, Wayne S wrote:
> Hda weighs about 50lbs so you aren’t carrying it very far.

Well, a trebuchet then.  How wide is the Detroit river at its narrowest?

Seriously, the US-Canada border is over 5,000 miles long, with plenty of
opportunity for slipping stuff across, even if it's just tossed over
someone's backyard fence.

Point Roberts, WA is notable for being accessible by land only by
traveling through Canada.

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[brad via cctalk]

In the old days we had a cottage on a binational lake in Quebec, and the border 
control consisted of a concrete pier with a phone.  "Anything to declare?"  
"Nope!"Boats passing back to Canada had the side profile of surfboards, so low 
they sat in the water loaded with US clothes and other goodies from shopping 
trips.Now they toss your butt in a holding cell if you don't have a receipt for 
that $30 pair of new looking slacks. Sent from my Galaxy
 Original message From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
 Date: 2024-07-01  6:43 p.m.  (GMT-08:00) To: 
cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: Chuck Guzis  Subject: [cctalk] Re: 
what to do with our "treasures" I've long thought that it would be a practical 
idea to set up a catapultin Detroit with a receiving station in Windsor to 
serve as a shippingarrangement between the US and Canada."Honest, Constable, 
the stuff just fell out of the sky..."--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Wayne S via cctalk]

Hda weighs about 50lbs so you aren’t carrying it very far.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 1, 2024, at 18:43, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I've long thought that it would be a practical idea to set up a catapult
> in Detroit with a receiving station in Windsor to serve as a shipping
> arrangement between the US and Canada.
> 
> "Honest, Constable, the stuff just fell out of the sky..."
> 
> --Chuck
> 

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I've long thought that it would be a practical idea to set up a catapult
in Detroit with a receiving station in Windsor to serve as a shipping
arrangement between the US and Canada.

"Honest, Constable, the stuff just fell out of the sky..."

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Could you just carry it, and tell them that it is the disk for your 
"Personal Computer"?  :-)

'course you might need to carry the computer with you to convince them :-)


On Mon, 1 Jul 2024, cz via cctalk wrote:

Actually I am travelling to France in a few weeks and there is an RM80 
platter HDA I could pick up. What is the complexity of just checking it as 
baggage? Do I have to declare it at Customs if the value is like zilch?


CZ

On 7/1/2024 8:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

On 2024-07-01 6:31 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ,
accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down
under.
I suspect today still shipping is better than it was in the 70's.

It is just nobody wants to box and crate the stuff,and wait a few
weeks on a ship any more.
Ben.
PS I suspect some people have so much stuff here, they could ship,
to Australia, it could flip to up over.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Wayne S via cctalk]

Chris, the baggage handlers don’t handle things gently so if you could check it 
( it’s probably too heavy anyway) it would get broken. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 1, 2024, at 18:08, ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mike wrote:
> Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole nobody ships stuff 
> back. :)
> 
> There is, and in the past I've acquired vintage stuff shipped back from an 
> Antarctic Base junk cleanup campaign via someone who was posted there 
> periodically. Not vintage computers though.
> 
> Also I've found it cheaper to airfreight 1/4 tonne vintage vehicle parts 
> USA->Oz than by sea freight, and I had it in two weeks instead of two months 
> (four days air, the rest of that time in local Customs).
> 
> Just a note on accumulating items stateside for shipment: make sure that 
> sending entity gets given invoices for _all_ items in that shipment or Oz 
> Customs may demand it. I knew someone who did not have the individual 
> invoices for an amalgamated collection of vintage vehicle parts and he told 
> me it was a hassle for him to sort out.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk]

Mike wrote:
Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole nobody ships stuff 
back. :)

There is, and in the past I've acquired vintage stuff shipped back from an 
Antarctic Base junk cleanup campaign via someone who was posted there 
periodically. Not vintage computers though.

Also I've found it cheaper to airfreight 1/4 tonne vintage vehicle parts 
USA->Oz than by sea freight, and I had it in two weeks instead of two months 
(four days air, the rest of that time in local Customs).

Just a note on accumulating items stateside for shipment: make sure that 
sending entity gets given invoices for _all_ items in that shipment or Oz 
Customs may demand it. I knew someone who did not have the individual invoices 
for an amalgamated collection of vintage vehicle parts and he told me it was a 
hassle for him to sort out.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[cz via cctalk]

Actually I am travelling to France in a few weeks and there is an RM80 
platter HDA I could pick up. What is the complexity of just checking it 
as baggage? Do I have to declare it at Customs if the value is like zilch?


CZ

On 7/1/2024 8:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

On 2024-07-01 6:31 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ,
accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down
under.
I suspect today still shipping is better than it was in the 70's.

It is just nobody wants to box and crate the stuff,and wait a few
weeks on a ship any more.
Ben.
PS I suspect some people have so much stuff here, they could ship,
to Australia, it could flip to up over.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[brad via cctalk]

I use MyUS for that.. I think they have a UK place also.  Fees are okay and 
they will store things for up to 3 months and then ship things in a single 
bundle.Without them my collection would never have happened.Sent from my Galaxy
 Original message From: Mike Stein via cctalk 
 Date: 2024-07-01  5:32 p.m.  (GMT-08:00) To: "General 
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  Cc: Sellam 
Abraham , Mike Stein  Subject: 
[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" I've had the same experience with 
folks in Australia & NZ,accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to 
ship it downunder.On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:07 PM Sellam Abraham via 
cctalk wrote:>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12 PM Ethan 
Dicks via cctalk > wrote:>> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 
7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk> >  wrote:> > > ... 
vendors mostly> > > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at 
stuff that's> > > abroad.> >> > If you aren't used to customs declaration 
forms, it can be a pain.> > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 
2-man shop in> > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and 
because> > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the> 
> Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in> > 2024 
dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to> > the seller 
to fix.> >> > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is 
too dear.> >> > -ethan> >>> I have a trading buddy in England.  I search eBay 
UK for stuff I'm seeking> and he also keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I 
like, and he buys it for> me and has it shipped to his place (shipping is very 
cheap within the UK).> Once enough stuff is accumulated  on his end, he packs 
it all together and> sends it as one big bundle, which saves immensely on 
shipping, but it's> still kinda pricey.  This all works in reverse too, of 
course.>> Suggestion: find yourself a UK or Euro-based trading buddy.>> I'm not 
sure what happened--it probably had something to do with Brexit, or> the Biden 
admin--but I remember it being a lot more reasonable to ship> across the pond 
both ways pre-2020.>> Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[ben via cctalk]

On 2024-07-01 6:31 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ,
accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down
under.
I suspect today still shipping is better than it was in the 70's.

It is just nobody wants to box and crate the stuff,and wait a few
weeks on a ship any more.
Ben.
PS I suspect some people have so much stuff here, they could ship,
to Australia, it could flip to up over.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Ask Ethan; I suppose a lot of stuff did actually get left behind.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:
>
> On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
> > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
> > then.
> >
> Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole
> nobody ships stuff back. :)
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Odd; in my experience shipping US to Canada is generally cheaper than
in the opposite direction. I'm still amazed by the rates from China;
maybe it's cheaper to send from Canada to someone in China and have
them send it back to the US ;-)

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:02 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 4:12 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:
>
> >
> > Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA.
> > Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA.
> > I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like
> > bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part.
> > It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour
> > 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon.
> >
>
> Shipping from USA to Canada is almost if not as or even more expensive than
> shipping to Europe sometimes.  Not so much in the reverse direction, which
> is weird--when I buy something on eBay from Canada the shipping is not that
> bad.
>
> None of it makes sense, which leads me to believe it's because it's all
> based on the politics of stupid.
>
> Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ,
accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down
under.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:07 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> > > ... vendors mostly
> > > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
> > > abroad.
> >
> > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
> > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
> > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
> > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
> > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
> > 2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
> > the seller to fix.
> >
> > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.
> >
> > -ethan
> >
>
> I have a trading buddy in England.  I search eBay UK for stuff I'm seeking
> and he also keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I like, and he buys it for
> me and has it shipped to his place (shipping is very cheap within the UK).
> Once enough stuff is accumulated  on his end, he packs it all together and
> sends it as one big bundle, which saves immensely on shipping, but it's
> still kinda pricey.  This all works in reverse too, of course.
>
> Suggestion: find yourself a UK or Euro-based trading buddy.
>
> I'm not sure what happened--it probably had something to do with Brexit, or
> the Biden admin--but I remember it being a lot more reasonable to ship
> across the pond both ways pre-2020.
>
> Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[ben via cctalk]

On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
then.


Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole
nobody ships stuff back. :)

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

A few years ago some kind soul sent me a couple of 5 1/4" HS Vector
Graphic diskettes from Minnesota to Toronto; as I recall, it cost him
about U$2.00. After copying them I forwarded them to another VG owner
in Winnipeg, a few hundred miles from the original sender, and it cost
C$10.00!

Australia and  New Zealand are pretty costly as well; you really have
to want whatever it is ;-)

And don't talk to me about UPS or other customs brokers!

m

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:12 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:
>
> On 2024-07-01 3:06 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> >> ... vendors mostly
> >> refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
> >> abroad.
> >
> > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
> > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
> > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
> > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
> > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
> > 2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
> > the seller to fix.
> >
> > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.
> >
> > -ethan
>
> Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA.
> Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA.
> I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like
> bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part.
> It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour
> 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon.
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
then.

Canada to US customs forms (just one, actually) have actually been
simplified, but alas, postage rates are still outrageous.

m

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 5:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > ... vendors mostly
> > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
> > abroad.
>
> If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
> Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
> Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
> they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
> Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
> 2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
> the seller to fix.
>
> I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.
>
> -ethan

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 4:12 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:

>
> Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA.
> Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA.
> I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like
> bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part.
> It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour
> 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon.
>

Shipping from USA to Canada is almost if not as or even more expensive than
shipping to Europe sometimes.  Not so much in the reverse direction, which
is weird--when I buy something on eBay from Canada the shipping is not that
bad.

None of it makes sense, which leads me to believe it's because it's all
based on the politics of stupid.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > ... vendors mostly
> > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
> > abroad.
>
> If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
> Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
> Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
> they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
> Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
> 2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
> the seller to fix.
>
> I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.
>
> -ethan
>

I have a trading buddy in England.  I search eBay UK for stuff I'm seeking
and he also keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I like, and he buys it for
me and has it shipped to his place (shipping is very cheap within the UK).
Once enough stuff is accumulated  on his end, he packs it all together and
sends it as one big bundle, which saves immensely on shipping, but it's
still kinda pricey.  This all works in reverse too, of course.

Suggestion: find yourself a UK or Euro-based trading buddy.

I'm not sure what happened--it probably had something to do with Brexit, or
the Biden admin--but I remember it being a lot more reasonable to ship
across the pond both ways pre-2020.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[ben via cctalk]

On 2024-07-01 3:06 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
 wrote:

... vendors mostly
refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
abroad.


If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
the seller to fix.

I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.

-ethan


Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA.
Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA.
I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like
bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part.
It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour 
3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
 wrote:
> ... vendors mostly
> refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
> abroad.

If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
the seller to fix.

I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.

-ethan

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 at 19:28, Mike Katz via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Look in the for sale forums at vcfed.org.
>
> The Vintage Computer Federation.

In my experience this is effectively US-only, or perhaps at best North
America only. There is a lot more of the world than the USA+Canada and
I've lived in 5 or 6 countries on 2 different continents and never in
the US.

I've forgotten my credentials it's been so long, but vendors mostly
refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
abroad.

--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Doc Shipley via cctalk]

On 6/27/24 21:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

The ones that I don't like are ones (particularly flea-market) where the 
seller refuses to give any indication of what they want, and demands 
that the potential buyer make the first offer.



  That goes to a lesson I learned long before the internet:

"If you have to ask, it's way too much."


Doc

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 8:46 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, js--- via cctalk wrote:
> > I'm interested in this, but..
> >
> > - How would they be compensated?
>
> presumably by some sort of percentage commission, such as done by art
> brokers, real estate agents, etc.
>

Right, typical.


> > - How would it be ensured that they didn't have a conflict of
> > interest, or bias, (or an actual interest in the collection)?
>
> There may be occasional ethics issues.  If it is composed of multiple
> "agents", then an agent who has personal lust for part of the collection
> should have to recuse themselves?  If it is a single entity, then they
> should openly negotiate with the owners.  How is that currently handled in
> art and real estate?
>
> I trust Sellam, at least with that stuff;  those who do not will have to
> find other venues.
>

You won't be trusting me, you'll be trusting the organization I will have
built.  There are also laws to follow.  I'm not interested in breaking any
laws or cheating anyone, but in providing a valuable service.

>
> > - How much would such a service cost, or be priced?
>
> THAT's a tough one, and it is likely to go up or down, as things develop.
> And in fact, it might be necessary to have that be a function of how
> difficult it will be to move the stuff.
>

Like I said, I'm still working this out.  But eventually, and naturally (at
least how I am seeing it now), I envision several regional operational
centers throughout the US in which to receive large collections and process
them.

Most inheritors, and even owners, of collections would probably be willing
> to accept fairly substantial commission percentages.  There will probably
> even be more than a few who will effectively say, "I don't care!  If you
> remove ALL of it, we'lll be happy!"
>
> I'm for it.
> Wanna do a test run with a truckload of my crap^h^h^h^h treasures?
>

Not until after you die, but I expect you to outlive me at this point.  So
hopefully the organization will be up and running before all that.

That being said, don't die, Fred.  I like you better alive.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 8:18 PM js--- via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 6/27/2024 10:09 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > Regardless I think Sellam is on to something here, there is need for a
> > service to manage the vintage computing collections of this who are not
> > predisposed to do so themselves.   At a minimum an objective consultation
> > and report produced by an educated appraiser of vintage computing /
> > electronics that can be referenced by the collector's surviving family.
> > Something that says, here is what you have, here are your options.
> >
> > Bill
>
>
> I'm interested in this, but..
>
> - How would they be compensated?
>
> - How would it be ensured that they didn't have a conflict of interest,
> or bias, (or an actual interest in the collection)?
>
> - How much would such a service cost, or be priced?
>
> JohnS.
>

I'm still working this out.  It'll be fee based, including maybe some kind
of periodic "subscription" fee.  But usually the trust indenture specifies
how the expenses are going to be paid, and I imagine in a typical case the
fees to disgorge the collection will come from the sale of the collection
itself.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 10:46 PM 6/27/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>THAT's a tough one, and it is likely to go up or down, as things develop. And 
>in fact, it might be necessary to have that be a function of how difficult it 
>will be to move the stuff.
>Most inheritors, and even owners, of collections would probably be willing to 
>accept fairly substantial commission percentages.  There will probably even be 
>more than a few who will effectively say, "I don't care!  If you remove ALL of 
>it, we'lll be happy!"

When I had to quickly move/disburse my office warehouse cache two years ago, 
I had a trusted friend who was interested in reselling.  I offered
him a 50/50 split.  I let him take (almost) whatever he wanted.

He took maybe three minivans worth.  I'm still quite content with
the terms of that deal, as well as what he's paid me.  I still have
roughly 1,200 square feet of stuff to deal with.

- John

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, js--- via cctalk wrote:

I'm interested in this, but..

- How would they be compensated?


presumably by some sort of percentage commission, such as done by art 
brokers, real estate agents, etc.


- How would it be ensured that they didn't have a conflict of 
interest, or bias, (or an actual interest in the collection)?


There may be occasional ethics issues.  If it is composed of multiple 
"agents", then an agent who has personal lust for part of the collection 
should have to recuse themselves?  If it is a single entity, then they 
should openly negotiate with the owners.  How is that currently handled in 
art and real estate?


I trust Sellam, at least with that stuff;  those who do not will have to 
find other venues.




- How much would such a service cost, or be priced?


THAT's a tough one, and it is likely to go up or down, as things develop. 
And in fact, it might be necessary to have that be a function of how 
difficult it will be to move the stuff.
Most inheritors, and even owners, of collections would probably be willing 
to accept fairly substantial commission percentages.  There will probably 
even be more than a few who will effectively say, "I don't care!  If you 
remove ALL of it, we'lll be happy!"



I'm for it.
Wanna do a test run with a truckload of my crap^h^h^h^h treasures?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[js--- via cctalk]

On 6/27/2024 10:09 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

Regardless I think Sellam is on to something here, there is need for a
service to manage the vintage computing collections of this who are not
predisposed to do so themselves.   At a minimum an objective consultation
and report produced by an educated appraiser of vintage computing /
electronics that can be referenced by the collector's surviving family.
Something that says, here is what you have, here are your options.

Bill



I'm interested in this, but..

- How would they be compensated?

- How would it be ensured that they didn't have a conflict of interest, 
or bias, (or an actual interest in the collection)?


- How much would such a service cost, or be priced?

JohnS.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024, 10:53 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> >> I generally don't like "make an offer", unless the seller has already
> >> stated an offer.  If so,then I can decide whether what I want to pay is
> in
> >> a range that they would discuss it.
> >> Otherwise,it is usually futile to start a discussion.
>
> On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> > I make offers on eBay all the time and more often than not they are
> > accepted (or a reasonable counter-offer comes as a reply).  Maybe it's
> > because I'm not chasing what everyone else is after.
>
> absolutely
> eBay "make an offer" is actually a "counter-offer", since the seller has
> already posted some sort of price.  Those can be quite productive.
>
> The ones that I don't like are ones (particularly flea-market) where the
> seller refuses to give any indication of what they want, and demands that
> the potential buyer make the first offer.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com


Regardless I think Sellam is on to something here, there is need for a
service to manage the vintage computing collections of this who are not
predisposed to do so themselves.   At a minimum an objective consultation
and report produced by an educated appraiser of vintage computing /
electronics that can be referenced by the collector's surviving family.
Something that says, here is what you have, here are your options.

Bill

>
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

I generally don't like "make an offer", unless the seller has already
stated an offer.  If so,then I can decide whether what I want to pay is in
a range that they would discuss it.
Otherwise,it is usually futile to start a discussion.


On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:

I make offers on eBay all the time and more often than not they are
accepted (or a reasonable counter-offer comes as a reply).  Maybe it's
because I'm not chasing what everyone else is after.


absolutely
eBay "make an offer" is actually a "counter-offer", since the seller has 
already posted some sort of price.  Those can be quite productive.


The ones that I don't like are ones (particularly flea-market) where the 
seller refuses to give any indication of what they want, and demands that 
the potential buyer make the first offer.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 7:04 PM John Herron via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> One thing (if not already making some hardware list and maybe a description
> of the history and price of the item for your family) that was recommended
> was just walking around with a video camera and talking about what what. An
> archive video of the collection will be a huge help to family if they know
> about the video. At least you could say "btw, this is an x .. it's worth
> finding a buyer and not trashing"


This is a really good idea.

And then upload it to YouTube.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 1:35 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> >>> Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page.  Is there somewhere on
> >>> the net that already does this?
>
> On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote:
> > The problem with this is it gets tedious from a buyer's perspective. The
> way I see it either of three scenarios are occurring when I see make an
> offer:
>
> I generally don't like "make an offer", unless the seller has already
> stated an offer.  If so,then I can decide whether what I want to pay is in
> a range that they would discuss it.
> Otherwise,it is usually futile to start a discussion.
>

I make offers on eBay all the time and more often than not they are
accepted (or a reasonable counter-offer comes as a reply).  Maybe it's
because I'm not chasing what everyone else is after.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[John Herron via cctalk]

One thing (if not already making some hardware list and maybe a description
of the history and price of the item for your family) that was recommended
was just walking around with a video camera and talking about what what. An
archive video of the collection will be a huge help to family if they know
about the video. At least you could say "btw, this is an x .. it's worth
finding a buyer and not trashing"

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024, 10:59 AM Mark Linimon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > On 06/27/2024 9:36 AM CDT Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> > To date, I have sold nothing.  I once went back to the list that
> > suggested I use ebay to report my failure only to be greeted with,
> > "Well, what did you expect.  You are not an established seller."
>
> I also have a whole pile of stuff that needs to go "somewhere".
>
> Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page.  Is there somewhere on the
> net that already does this?
>
> mcl
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page.  Is there somewhere on
the net that already does this?


It is important to realize that there are two kinds of shopping browsing:

have decided to buy one, and looking for best deal
or
looking for bargains, and will buy if there are any exceptional deals

"make an offer" is only suitable for the first of those.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page.  Is there somewhere on
the net that already does this?


On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote:

The problem with this is it gets tedious from a buyer's perspective. The way I 
see it either of three scenarios are occurring when I see make an offer:


I generally don't like "make an offer", unless the seller has already 
stated an offer.  If so,then I can decide whether what I want to pay is in 
a range that they would discuss it.

Otherwise,it is usually futile to start a discussion.

All too often, the seller wants far more than I would consider.
In flea markets (Foothill, etc.) I will sometimes say, "Would you be 
offended if I offered xx?"

Sometimes, they are.
But, sometimes they respond with "I wouldn't be offended, but I wouldn't 
accept that."  That at least gives a starting point for potential 
negotiation.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Ali via cctalk]

> > Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page.  Is there somewhere on
> the
> > net that already does this?


The problem with this is it gets tedious from a buyer's perspective. The way I 
see it either of three scenarios are occurring when I see make an offer:

1. You are fishing to see what the highest price you can get is
2. You have a price in mind but it is high/eBay level and you just don't want 
to say it
3. You are not serious

Every time I have engaged in this BS it has been a waste of time. Most recently 
was two weeks ago. Someone posted an item on VCF about five months ago. I make 
a very fair offer for the item. It is obvious I am the only one interested but 
the guys goes radio silent after the offer (insulted, ego bruised, thinks it is 
too low, whatever). No one else is making an offer/showing interest so two 
weeks ago he comes back accepting my offer. And this isn't the only time this 
has happened. Had a guys come back to me with an offer I had made him 
pre-covid. So basically with inflation he ended up taking even less money than 
if he had sold to me initially.

At least the guys on VCF are somewhat sane for the most part. The eBay sellers? 
Forget about it. Even 10% off of asking price offers are ignored/declined. 

If you want to sell something list your price and sell it. If your goal is for 
someone to take something and have it preserved then just come out and say it: 
free to good home for cost of shipping. Just my two cents...

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Johan Helsingius via cctalk]

On 27/06/2024 19:30, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


As I previously stated I tried that just a month or two ago.
Got zero offers. Scrapped a whole bunch of stuff cause keeping
everything I have now just isn't an option anymore.


An extra problem for us living outside the US is that freight/
postage charges often makes even interested people go "no
thanks".

Julf

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 6/27/2024 11:46 AM, Mark Linimon wrote:

On 06/27/2024 9:36 AM CDT Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
To date, I have sold nothing.  I once went back to the list that
suggested I use ebay to report my failure only to be greeted with,
"Well, what did you expect.  You are not an established seller."


I also have a whole pile of stuff that needs to go "somewhere".

Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page.  Is there somewhere on the
net that already does this?




As I previously stated I tried that just a month or two ago.
Got zero offers. Scrapped a whole bunch of stuff cause keeping
everything I have now just isn't an option anymore.

bill

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

Look in the for sale forums at vcfed.org.
'
The Vintage Computer Federation.

On 6/27/2024 10:46 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:

On 06/27/2024 9:36 AM CDT Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
To date, I have sold nothing.  I once went back to the list that
suggested I use ebay to report my failure only to be greeted with,
"Well, what did you expect.  You are not an established seller."

I also have a whole pile of stuff that needs to go "somewhere".

Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page.  Is there somewhere on the
net that already does this?

mcl

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

> On 06/27/2024 9:36 AM CDT Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> To date, I have sold nothing.  I once went back to the list that
> suggested I use ebay to report my failure only to be greeted with,
> "Well, what did you expect.  You are not an established seller."

I also have a whole pile of stuff that needs to go "somewhere".

Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page.  Is there somewhere on the
net that already does this?

mcl

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

On 2024-05-07 12:29, John Foust via cctalk wrote:

At 09:52 PM 5/1/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

In the early days of the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga, (and I may have the two 
reversed in the following anecdote), Atari had a nice display of a bouncing 
checkered beach ball.  Amiga had almost nothing.
But, the second day, everybody except the booth bimbos at Commodore looked 
haggard, but their machine was showing a bouncing checkered beach ball. And it 
was bouncing faster than Atari's!


Yes, you have them mixed up.  Amiga had the bouncing beach ball, with sound.
Atari had nothing.


Than, the juggler demo on amiga came out, and nobody ever talked about 
atari & graphics again :)


https://www.reddit.com/r/amiga/comments/oqx9qr/35_years_ago_the_amiga_juggler_demo_released_in/

http://www.etwright.org/cghist/juggler.html

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 09:52 PM 5/1/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>In the early days of the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga, (and I may have the two 
>reversed in the following anecdote), Atari had a nice display of a bouncing 
>checkered beach ball.  Amiga had almost nothing.
>But, the second day, everybody except the booth bimbos at Commodore looked 
>haggard, but their machine was showing a bouncing checkered beach ball. And it 
>was bouncing faster than Atari's!

Yes, you have them mixed up.  Amiga had the bouncing beach ball, with sound.
Atari had nothing.

- John

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[ben via cctalk]

On 2024-05-01 11:26 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote:


Don't forget to bring a towel.

Sellam


The fact that we all probably got that reference is the amazing part.

-Ali


What no white mouse trap!

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[John Herron via cctalk]

Less interesting answer but being multiples of any cables you're relying
on. If presenting, multiple HDMI/output cables (I've seen HDMI cables not
work in specific setups and another cable would for unknown reasons).

Display cards or tags describing what you have on the table and what is
interesting are always a plus.

If you have stuff for sale, things to tag that area or equipment with. I've
been confused at some shows that are both presenting and selling on how to
identify what the seller has for sale.

Then I agree with all the other things folks mentioned for additional
power/protection and any tools you might want if you need to troubleshoot a
system that gets shy after a day or two of people looking at it or touching
it.

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 9:03 PM Brad H via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
> think of going into your first show do you wish you had?
>
>
>
> I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff
>

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

I had a similar experience at VCF Midwest where the line voltage was as 
low as 90 VAC.  My area was without power for about 2 hours during setup.




On 5/2/2024 11:01 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
I learned at VCF East this year that I should have brought an UPS to 
make sure that my vintage equipment had good, clean AC power.  My 
PDP11 kept on resetting during the show.

Doug

On 5/1/2024 9:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote:

Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing
festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others 
attend the
ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  
Super
excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even 
got me

two tables which is awesome.


Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
think of going into your first show do you wish you had?


I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my
Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the 
risks of

transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention
itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be 
in terms

of theme.


Brad

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

I agree on the UPS!  Power can be inconsistent at shows

On Thu, May 2, 2024, 12:02 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I learned at VCF East this year that I should have brought an UPS to
> make sure that my vintage equipment had good, clean AC power.  My PDP11
> kept on resetting during the show.
> Doug
>
> On 5/1/2024 9:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote:
> > Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing
> > festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others attend
> the
> > ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  Super
> > excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got
> me
> > two tables which is awesome.
> >
> >
> >
> > Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
> > think of going into your first show do you wish you had?
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my
> > Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of
> > transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention
> > itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in
> terms
> > of theme.
> >
> >
> >
> > Brad
> >
>
>

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Douglas Taylor via cctalk]

I learned at VCF East this year that I should have brought an UPS to 
make sure that my vintage equipment had good, clean AC power.  My PDP11 
kept on resetting during the show.

Doug

On 5/1/2024 9:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote:

Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing
festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others attend the
ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  Super
excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got me
two tables which is awesome.

  


Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
think of going into your first show do you wish you had?

  


I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my
Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of
transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention
itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in terms
of theme.

  


Brad

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

A lot of people regret it later because they dont think they'll need it
when packing but I always bring a bathing suit just in case.  The vcf
exhibitor pool is a nice way to relax after a long day of showing.

On Thu, May 2, 2024, 1:13 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, May 1, 2024, 7:48 PM Jim Brain via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank
> > disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small
> > USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go
> > everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel
> > power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives.
> >
>
> Don't forget to bring a towel.
>
> Sellam
>

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[CAREY SCHUG via cctalk]

And a long scarf?

--Carey

> On 05/02/2024 12:26 AM CDT Ali via cctalk  wrote:
> 
>  
> >
> > Don't forget to bring a towel.
> >
> > Sellam
> 
> The fact that we all probably got that reference is the amazing part.
> 
> -Ali

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Ali via cctalk]

>
> Don't forget to bring a towel.
>
> Sellam

The fact that we all probably got that reference is the amazing part.

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 8:03 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> Our booth bimbo gave herself the title, "BAIT"
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred
>

Boobs And Invitation Technician?

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 7:48 PM Jim Brain via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank
> disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small
> USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go
> everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel
> power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives.
>

Don't forget to bring a towel.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:

Games are always a good draw, even if that seems like cheating.


In the early days of the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga, (and I may have the 
two reversed in the following anecdote), Atari had a nice display of a 
bouncing checkered beach ball.  Amiga had almost nothing.
But, the second day, everybody except the booth bimbos at Commodore looked 
haggard, but their machine was showing a bouncing checkered beach ball. 
And it was bouncing faster than Atari's!


If you really want to be strategic, have a different demo available for 
each day :-)



Sorry that I forgot to mention soldering iron and related tools; I had one 
living in my car, so didn't think of it as a separate item.



My assistant hired a pretty girlfriend as a booth bimbo.  She got us 
invited to all of the parties (and some Comdex parties are incredible)

In my company everybody creates their own job title.  I am "a programmer".
My assistant alternated between "VP" and "Emperor of the dark lords of the 
universe".  Our booth bimbo gave herself the title, "BAIT"


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

On 5/1/2024 9:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Bring lots of business cards.  Even if you aren't running a business, 
it's a lot better than standing there writing your contact information 
for everybofy that you want to stay in touch with.
Well, or a couple pieces of paper with QR codes for your web site, or 
email address, or however you want to be contacted.  I agree writing 
stuff down is nonsensical.


paper, pens, pencils, post-it notes, stapler, duct tape, voltmeter, 
batteries, flashlight, cash, blank disks and memory cards, 
screwdrivers, vise-grips, hammer.  Even if none of those fit in with 
your plans, those items will help enormously to deal with unexpected 
situations.


travel USB cords (you never know)

a long power strip with multiple taps.  6-10ft if you can.

a few extra of the power cords like goes on newer PCs and such. You may 
need them as-is, you may need to cut one and hard wire it in.  I have 
tons of them around here, so a few in the box is no big deal.


wire stripper, side nips.  In fact, if you are electronically minded at 
all, I'd throw an old soldering iron, a bit of solder, wick, needle nose 
pliers, as well.


I am literally packing for a show tonight, and I am carrying all of the 
above.


My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank 
disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small 
USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go 
everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel 
power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives.


travel LCD projector

a few RCA patch cords (work for audio or video, though I normally bring 
home computers, you may not find as much need)


signage

I tend to bring some essential electronics/sockets/switches/wire as well

The computers and peripherals I intend to show.





Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing
festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others 
attend the
ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  
Super
excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even 
got me

two tables which is awesome.



Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
think of going into your first show do you wish you had?


If you are doing a presentation, finish it before you get there, if at 
all possible.  There's always people to chat with and other things 
drawing your attention away while at the show, and doing a presentation 
while at the show is always hard, if not impossible. I've done, but I do 
not recommend.


As well, just like with any audience, ensure your prez is interesting.  
Try it on someone else first.  Don't read the slides if that's your 
medium.  QR code for more information is nice.






I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my
Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the 
risks of

transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention
itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be 
in terms

of theme.


Maybe for the first one, be a bit conservative.  I've taken some high 
value rare stuff to shows, but you have to pay more attention to those 
items before, during, and after the show, and I think you'd like to 
enjoy the show for the moment.


Whatever you bring, make sure it is doing something.  Looking at a bare 
computer not doing anything is not an interesting exhibit. I've been 
guilty of this, but it's still true.


Games are always a good draw, even if that seems like cheating.

Now, off to finish packing.





Brad



--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Bring lots of business cards.  Even if you aren't running a business, it's 
a lot better than standing there writing your contact information for 
everybofy that you want to stay in touch with.


paper, pens, pencils, post-it notes, stapler, duct tape, voltmeter, 
batteries, flashlight, cash, blank disks and memory cards, screwdrivers, 
vise-grips, hammer.  Even if none of those fit in with your 
plans, those items will help enormously to deal with unexpected 
situations.



It isn't so much how well prepared you are, as how well you can adapt when 
needed.
For example, one year at Comdex, we rented an seven foot by seven foot 
booth.  A year later, at the show, the management realized that that 
little block of space was something that should not have been rented.  So, 
they gave us a ten by ten.  How to you make a seven foot wide back sign at 
least look like it fills a ten foot space?  Home Depot for some aluminum 
angle iron, fabric store for drapes.
Another time, when we had a 10 x 10, next to a couple who we knew well, we 
had to help them.  He ended up in the hospital, but his wife was 
determined to do the show, anyway.  So, we combine the two 10x10s into a 
10x20, with only a "virtual" wall in between, and stuck the leads table 
with the imprinter, etc, in the middle.



We always had a tiny refrigerator in our booth.  Handing Jerry Pournelle a 
cold beer got us a lot of free ink.  Snack foods for hospitality and/or if 
things are too busy at lunch time to goget anything.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Brad H via cctalk wrote:


Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing
festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others attend the
ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  Super
excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got me
two tables which is awesome.



Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
think of going into your first show do you wish you had?



I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my
Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of
transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention
itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in terms
of theme.



Brad

[cctalk] Re: What happened to the PDP-8 on ebay?

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

The original listing price was $25,000 and was reduced to $18,000 when 
there we no bids at the original price.


On 10/5/2023 2:34 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 9:18 PM jim stephens via cctalk 
wrote:



On 10/3/23 21:23, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

There was a PDP-8 (rack straight 8 with asr33) that was on ebay that
disappeared..anyone know if it was sold?  I can't find it, maybe the

seller

pulled the auction to sell privately.
Bill

I trolled thru VCF forum and I think this is the one you recall. It's
the last straight 8 I saw listed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314563635

I also off your topic have observed a German listing and British listing
for Olivetti Programma 101s for 40,000 pounds and 60,000 euro, in the
same fantasy range as this listing which is for $18,000.

This listing shows currently terminated September 20 due to an error in
the listing.  No relist by this vendor.  He also did something on Sept 2
with is.

Thanks
jim


Realistically, $18,000 is not a bad price at all for a complete PDP-8. The
only downside is the broken off corner of the front panel glass.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: What happened to the PDP-8 on ebay?

[Rod Smallwood via cctalk]

Notwithstanding I'm in the UK I do have a lot of PDP8/e era boards some 
of which I'd like to sell to raise funds to buy items I dont have.


Rod Smallwood


On 04/10/2023 03:23, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

There was a PDP-8 (rack straight 8 with asr33) that was on ebay that
disappeared..anyone know if it was sold?  I can't find it, maybe the seller
pulled the auction to sell privately.
Bill

[cctalk] Re: What happened to the PDP-8 on ebay?

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

Found out from the owner, it was sold to someone in Europe.  I did not ask
for additional details.

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 3:45 PM Bill Degnan  wrote:

> Is there specific evidence it sold?  All we know is that the listing was
> pulled.  I guess no one here bought it
> Bill
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 3:34 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 9:18 PM jim stephens via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/3/23 21:23, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>> > > There was a PDP-8 (rack straight 8 with asr33) that was on ebay that
>> > > disappeared..anyone know if it was sold?  I can't find it, maybe the
>> > seller
>> > > pulled the auction to sell privately.
>> > > Bill
>> > I trolled thru VCF forum and I think this is the one you recall. It's
>> > the last straight 8 I saw listed.
>> >
>> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314563635
>> >
>> > I also off your topic have observed a German listing and British listing
>> > for Olivetti Programma 101s for 40,000 pounds and 60,000 euro, in the
>> > same fantasy range as this listing which is for $18,000.
>> >
>> > This listing shows currently terminated September 20 due to an error in
>> > the listing.  No relist by this vendor.  He also did something on Sept 2
>> > with is.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > jim
>> >
>>
>> Realistically, $18,000 is not a bad price at all for a complete PDP-8. The
>> only downside is the broken off corner of the front panel glass.
>>
>> Sellam
>>
>

[cctalk] Re: What happened to the PDP-8 on ebay?

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

Is there specific evidence it sold?  All we know is that the listing was
pulled.  I guess no one here bought it
Bill

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 3:34 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 9:18 PM jim stephens via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 10/3/23 21:23, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > > There was a PDP-8 (rack straight 8 with asr33) that was on ebay that
> > > disappeared..anyone know if it was sold?  I can't find it, maybe the
> > seller
> > > pulled the auction to sell privately.
> > > Bill
> > I trolled thru VCF forum and I think this is the one you recall. It's
> > the last straight 8 I saw listed.
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314563635
> >
> > I also off your topic have observed a German listing and British listing
> > for Olivetti Programma 101s for 40,000 pounds and 60,000 euro, in the
> > same fantasy range as this listing which is for $18,000.
> >
> > This listing shows currently terminated September 20 due to an error in
> > the listing.  No relist by this vendor.  He also did something on Sept 2
> > with is.
> >
> > Thanks
> > jim
> >
>
> Realistically, $18,000 is not a bad price at all for a complete PDP-8. The
> only downside is the broken off corner of the front panel glass.
>
> Sellam
>

[cctalk] Re: What happened to the PDP-8 on ebay?

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 9:18 PM jim stephens via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>
> On 10/3/23 21:23, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > There was a PDP-8 (rack straight 8 with asr33) that was on ebay that
> > disappeared..anyone know if it was sold?  I can't find it, maybe the
> seller
> > pulled the auction to sell privately.
> > Bill
> I trolled thru VCF forum and I think this is the one you recall. It's
> the last straight 8 I saw listed.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314563635
>
> I also off your topic have observed a German listing and British listing
> for Olivetti Programma 101s for 40,000 pounds and 60,000 euro, in the
> same fantasy range as this listing which is for $18,000.
>
> This listing shows currently terminated September 20 due to an error in
> the listing.  No relist by this vendor.  He also did something on Sept 2
> with is.
>
> Thanks
> jim
>

Realistically, $18,000 is not a bad price at all for a complete PDP-8. The
only downside is the broken off corner of the front panel glass.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: What happened to the PDP-8 on ebay?

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 10/3/23 21:23, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

There was a PDP-8 (rack straight 8 with asr33) that was on ebay that
disappeared..anyone know if it was sold?  I can't find it, maybe the seller
pulled the auction to sell privately.
Bill
I trolled thru VCF forum and I think this is the one you recall. It's 
the last straight 8 I saw listed.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314563635

I also off your topic have observed a German listing and British listing 
for Olivetti Programma 101s for 40,000 pounds and 60,000 euro, in the 
same fantasy range as this listing which is for $18,000.


This listing shows currently terminated September 20 due to an error in 
the listing.  No relist by this vendor.  He also did something on Sept 2 
with is.


Thanks
jim

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Mon, 9 Jan 2023 at 03:45, Ethan Dicks via cctalk
 wrote:

> I have a memory of installing Windows 95 on a monochrome 386SX laptop
> w/4MB of RAM in August, 1995 at McMurdo because that's the equipment
> we had on hand when Win95 arrived on the continent. It was
> unpleasantly slow but it did run.
>
> Way better on a 486 w/8MB.

Oh my word yes.

But the surprising thing was that it did work, my careful
benchmarking, using MS Office, Photoshop and some other real apps,
automated with macros, showed that MS' optimization work had gone in
the right places.

WfWg 3.11 with 32-bit disk access and 32-bit file access had a fast
disk subsystem, but it wasn't able to adjust cache sizes on the fly.
You set min/max sizes and that was that.

W95 could shrink them to next to nothing if it needed.

Result: W95 started slower and felt slower on a very low-end machine,
such as a 386 with 4MB, the min spec. WfWg 3.11 started quicker and
was much more responsive.

But put both through the same set of demanding exercises in real apps,
doing a lot of work, generating documents, outputting info over OLE
into other apps and things, and W95 ran the whole benchmark suite
quicker.

It _felt_ slower but it actually traded off responsive feel for doing
big demanding jobs faster overall.

In comparison, an OS that went the other way was BeOS, which was tuned
to feel maximally responsive at all times... and for the most part it
didn't _have_ big demanding apps that could be scripted into long
heavy workloads, so BeOS felt much massively quicker on
turn-of-the-century PCs.





-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 11:52 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
 wrote:
> > Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM
>
> Nope. 32-bit only. 386DX or later. I tried it and benchmarked it at
> the time of release. And it beat WfWg 3.11 by a significant margin, to
> everyone's amazement.

I have a memory of installing Windows 95 on a monochrome 386SX laptop
w/4MB of RAM in August, 1995 at McMurdo because that's the equipment
we had on hand when Win95 arrived on the continent. It was
unpleasantly slow but it did run.

Way better on a 486 w/8MB.

-ethan

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 at 07:54, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:

> Well, if you want to pedantic about it, you certainly could emulate a
> 32-bit processor on any reasonably Turing-equivalent processor, given
> sufficient memory.  It might be incredibly slow, but you could do it.

Noted Australian Mac hacker Dana Silbera -- "nanoraptor" on Twitter --
got Mac OS X to boot on a 68040 Mac this way. EXTREMELY slowly, in the
PearPC PowerPC emulator, compiled on 680x0 Linux, IIRC.

It took 2 days to show the desktop or something.

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 at 23:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> > You've apparently never heard of Tony Duell: last I read he was running
> > Windows 98 on an IBM PC/XT or something like that :)

Linux on a heavily-upgraded PC-AT with a '386 board in it, I believe.

> Tony,
> are you around?

He is, still posts occasionally, and I believe he has a more modern PC now. :-)

> Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM

Nope. 32-bit only. 386DX or later. I tried it and benchmarked it at
the time of release. And it beat WfWg 3.11 by a significant margin, to
everyone's amazement.

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

[cctalk] Re: what is on topic?

[Chris via cctalk]

 It's about being dang-old or not. Nuff said I feel.

As far as deeming PPC Macs on topic, it sort of makes me cringe. They're 
interesting, especially the earlier ones. But we already have the Quadra 
series, weird and wonderful enough to be inaugurated as classic certainly. 
Remember classic, vintage, retro, old, and dang-old don't have to mean the same 
thing. The 68040 based Macs were the pinnacle of what began with the Macintosh 
II. People who owned Tandy 1000s and 2000s drooled when the Tandy 3000 was 
released. Likewise with really every new generation of Macs. The Quadras sorta 
kinda marked the end of a period. New technologies were brought in to advance 
the line.

I have my own way of looking at things. As if anyone cared.  

[cctalk] Re: what is on topic?

[Joshua Rice via cctalk]

The subject to f that is and what isn’t vintage computing is an argument as 
ancient as the computer itself. Fact is, it’s a moving target. As every year 
passes, products you can categorise as “vintage” changes at different rates. 
For example: IBM PC’s have largely standardised and “stagnated” in the last 
10-50 years. A machine from 2010 is largely similar in operation as a machine 
from 2022. However, an iPhone from 2010 (such as the iPhone 4), is woefully 
obsolete compared to modern offerings. Certain product lines and categories age 
worse than others. Another example is the PPC Macintosh line. Radically 
different, and largely unsuported, this range of computers were only 
discontinued in 2006, but i’m sure there’s no argument that they’re pretty 
on-topic. 

What is defined as on-topic and off-topic is something we can argue until the 
cows come home, but utimately it’s a matter of opinion. However, i believe that 
this list, in particular, seems to aim at the weird and wonderful, regardless 
of decades. There’s people on this list who are experts at the Apollo Guidance 
Computer, there are people here who understand the BeBox. There’s people here 
who have experience with Cray supercomputers and Connections Machines 
supercomputers. 

There’s places to discusss early 00’s winboxes, 8-bit home computers, or video 
games consoles. But ultimately, if i’m interested in information on some 
obscure 70’s-80’s-90’s-00’s box of chips, i bet this list is the place i can 
get an answer.

I think, in general, this list is ultimately aimed at the “weird and wacky”, 
and not any sort of age. Even if that is pretty frab run-of-the-mill stuff like 
modern winboxes or 8-bit consoles. Looking to see how to rig an acoustic modem 
and a 5.25” drives to a Server 2003 machine? Here’s a good place. Looking for 
ROMs for your C64? Probably not.

Cheers, 

Josh Rice

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/22/22 22:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


Software development calls for more speed, for decent compile, assmble, 
and link times.




Come on Fred.  You have been around long enough to know this isn't
really true.  It's nice to have but we did just fine developing real
software (not Candy Crush Saga) back when turnaround time on a compile
could easily be more than 24 hours.  The things you mention above have
only made developers more lazy.

bill

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Chris via cctalk]

 




On Friday, December 23, 2022, 01:54:57 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
 wrote:


On 12/22/22 18:45, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

> Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially)
> operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor.
>
> You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor.

Well, if you want to pedantic about it, you certainly could emulate a
32-bit processor on any reasonably Turing-equivalent processor, given
sufficient memory. It might be incredibly slow, but you could do it.

--Chuck

I was going to say assembly language texts and maybe even Intel docs give 
examples of substituting 2 or more instructions to replace a newer processors 
instructions, that the earlier one never heard of. Not sure if that's what Fred 
was talking about.

Who cares about W95/98. I want to see NT 4.0 running on PC Peanut.  

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/22/22 18:45, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially)
> operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor.
>
> You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor.
Well, if you want to pedantic about it, you certainly could emulate a
32-bit processor on any reasonably Turing-equivalent processor, given
sufficient memory.  It might be incredibly slow, but you could do it.

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 10:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> > You've apparently never heard of Tony Duell: last I read he was running
> > Windows 98 on an IBM PC/XT or something like that :)
>
> Tony,
> are you around?

QSL

The only 'classic' Windows system I have is an HP150. Of course that
is a specially modified version of Windows1 (doesn't even have
overlapping windows)

Alas I have had to get a more modern PC to have access to the internet
and this list. I don't regard it as a computer. I do not know how to
program it, I do not know how to interface it. It does what the
manufacturers want, not what I want. And we call this progress.

Still got all my classics though, and a few more. Spent the last
couple of months sorting out a strange 68020 box called a Stride 440.
I guess that's on-topic here.

-tony

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that.
Would it run?  Maybe.
Would I want to run it like that?  Nope.  Not at all.

I stand corrected.
"Run", no.
"limp along", yes
It could do a few useful things; but was far from suitable for general
purpose.




On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 6:46 PM Glen Slick via cctalk 
wrote:

Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially)
operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor.

You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor.


On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:


Seems a bit impossible to me as well but Fred has made computers do things
that would make ordinary men involuntarily lose their bladder so I look
forward to the story/explanation.


Well, some of that was just being ignorant that certain things weren't 
"possible" until after they were done.


but, really, nothing fancy.
If you have A computer, and need it to do many different things 
adequately, you have much greater requirements, than if you have MANY 
computers, many of which are dedicated to specific tasks.


"Telephone log", "order entry", "order processing", "bookkeeping and 
accounting" don't require much; "documentation" and "desktop publishing"
need a bit more, but different needs.  And NONE of those should EVER be on 
the same machines used for software development and testing.


Software development calls for more speed, for decent compile, assmble, 
and link times.


Software testing must be done on a variety of machines, specifically 
including ones at the level of the customer.
XenoCopy 1.000 was tested on 5150.  And that was ALL that it ran 
on.  Changes had to be made when "compatible" machines came out.


Many companies make the mistake of providing state of the art machines to 
their testers, who therefore don't experience the kinds of problems that 
the customers get on crappy machines.


For example, when an operating system company uses high end RELIABLE 
machines for testing, they don't experience the problems, and end up with 
very poor error handling.


For example, Microsoft was unaware that a disk error, even a minor one, 
could/would corrupt the content being written to disk by write cacheing in 
SMARTDRV.  When that was reported to them by Win3.1 beta testers, their 
response was LITERALLY, "That's a hardware issue; NOT OUR PROBLEM."  They 
had to do a major free "update" towards DOS 6.2x because of that (SMARTDRV 
was the only issue that actually forced that free update; the "problems 
with disk compression" were virrtually ALL SMARTDRV.)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Will Cooke via cctalk]

> On 12/22/2022 8:45 PM CST Glen Slick via cctalk 
> 
> Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially)
> operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor.
> 
> You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor.
> 
> >
Well, there's always Linux on an 8 bit microcontroller...
https://hackaday.com/2012/03/28/building-the-worst-linux-pc-ever/

Will

I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by 
married men. Nikola Tesla

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Seems a bit impossible to me as well but Fred has made computers do things
that would make ordinary men involuntarily lose their bladder so I look
forward to the story/explanation.

Sellam

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 6:46 PM Glen Slick via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 6:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk  >
> wrote:
>
> > >> Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> > > I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that.
> > > Would it run?  Maybe.
> > > Would I want to run it like that?  Nope.  Not at all.
> >
> > I stand corrected.
> > "Run", no.
> > "limp along", yes
> > It could do a few useful things; but was far from suitable for general
> > purpose.
> >
>
> Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially)
> operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor.
>
> You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor.
>
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 6:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> >> Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> > I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that.
> > Would it run?  Maybe.
> > Would I want to run it like that?  Nope.  Not at all.
>
> I stand corrected.
> "Run", no.
> "limp along", yes
> It could do a few useful things; but was far from suitable for general
> purpose.
>

Shirley none of you are serious about a 32-bit (at least partially)
operating system being able to execute on a 286 processor.

You couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode on a 286 processor.

>

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Win95/Win98 would be happy with a PC/AT 286, with appropriate RAM


On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

I don't think "happy" is how I would describe that.
Would it run?  Maybe.
Would I want to run it like that?  Nope.  Not at all.


I stand corrected.
"Run", no.
"limp along", yes
It could do a few useful things; but was far from suitable for general 
purpose.


"Happy"??!?  as in a "happy holiday season"

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 12/22/22 2:24 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

For PC’s, being able to run WinXP is an interesting cutoff


Why use a cut off that's based on a date?

After all, the list is a moving / sliding window.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die