RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Hi, I reluctantly abdicate my claim to being the oldest on this list -- but actually my claim was that I was the oldest CCNP/CCDP on Earth -- which I hope that I still hold the rights to -- unless of course you get certified!! But it's nice to show these young 'uns a thing or two about older folks being able to (and interested enough to master this area. Keep on truckin' Greg Macaulay Oldest CCNP/CCDP on Earth Lifetime Member of AARP Retired Attorney/Law Professor -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 6:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] ON age NO, I don't mind, unlike a woman I will reveal that I am 59 years young and still ride a motorcycle, fly my own airplane and water ski. Unfortunately, age is a factor in reflexes, and memory on hesitates to memorize long lists of trivia such as exact router capabilities, number of ports and which ones have a BRI with a U interface, S/T or both etc. Experience tells us better to know where to look it up, than to rely on rote memory etc. I have several other certifications such as in flying: flight instructor - CFII and Airline Transport Pilot ATP which if flying for a commercial airline retirement is mandatory at age 60. I don't see age as a hindrance when doing Network design or service, a young man may have quicker recall an ability to memorize data for sure - I obtained an FCC radio telephone license in 1960 and still have the formulas burnt in my mind X of L equal 2 pi FL etc. I am working for a large corporation which is now migrating our hub and spoke global network towards an IP MPLS mesh. Worked with cisco AGS routers from day one but no certifications were required. May be oldest student on list? Ray Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=8097t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
with regards to the contents of the exam, I am reminded of the time I told my son that when I was his age I could name all the presidents of the IUnited States, to which he answered there were only 5 or six of them back then :- with regards to the value of the CCIE, whatever that may be, like it or not, there are tens of thousands of us wannabes in the queue. Assuming normal progress, that tells me that in 5 more years, there will be tens of thousands of CCIE's. Ain't nothing anyone can do about that. Louie, let me ask - if you were to walk into the lab tomorrow, do you think you could pass? if not, of what value is your CCIE? I have a sneaking suspoicion that most CCIE's, unless they passed the lab very recently, would not get through it again without some devoted study. kinda like passing the bar, or the CPA exam? Chuck tride hard to keep out of this one, but. Louie Belt wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree there is no way to talk apples to apples - too many things have changed - but don't forget you no longer have to deal with LAT, X.25, CLNS, DEC, Banyan Vines, Appollo, Appletalk or ATM Lane. (Voice was already on the lab prior to these items being removed.) My concern is with the material that is not focused on teaching you networking (I have no problem with that), but on the material the simply teaches you how to pass the test (kind of like all of the Microsoft braindump material available - desinged only to help you pass the test). I see too much material as of late that is way too focused on passing the lab, not on learning networking. Louie -Original Message- From: Circusnuts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:01 PM To: Louie Belt; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here... During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could confirm this rumor) can you imagine how much easier the lab would have been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things like bad time management poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever been. Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o) Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael L. Williams Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten their CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying something like that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen) to now say Sure.. make it as difficult as possible I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them said that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is too cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a resonable solution. Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1 day? Not to raise the bar of the level of the exam, but simply because they're testing centers can't handle the demand. Mashing into 1 day, IMHO, would be a very poor decision. Agreeing with Brad, do all of the CCIEs that are out there have a problem with leaving the bar where it was when you passed it? It only seems fair. Mike W. Bradley J. Wilson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their ri
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Hi, Great. Nowadays you have IPSec, MPLS, Voice, Optical and you still need CLNS/CLNP for IS-IS. You can also argue whether Appletalk or IPX should be removed or not. These are important protocols that should be placed in an add-on certification for Desktop or Client/server issues. Me thinks people are right claiming that in IOS 9.xx or 10.xx times the exam was easier. It's the sheer amount of topics and their synergies that are killing us now. I'd happily trade X.25 or DecNet versus MPLS or IPsec ;-). Just kidding, these topics are far too interesting. Besides, hopefully we all learned from the failure of the Design CCIE. It is not possible to measure one's ability in design and architecture objectively. Hence, me thinks the CCND is pointless and waste of time too. One can also argue whether a CCIE lab based on time-pressure and protocol memorization is the best way of measuring a candidate's ability in network engineering. My 0.02$, Gernot Louie Belt wrote: I agree there is no way to talk apples to apples - too many things have changed - but don't forget you no longer have to deal with LAT, X.25, CLNS, DEC, Banyan Vines, Appollo, Appletalk or ATM Lane. (Voice was already on the lab prior to these items being removed.) My concern is with the material that is not focused on teaching you networking (I have no problem with that), but on the material the simply teaches you how to pass the test (kind of like all of the Microsoft braindump material available - desinged only to help you pass the test). I see too much material as of late that is way too focused on passing the lab, not on learning networking. Louie Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6970t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Tell us Louie what did you use. Don - Original Message - From: Bradley J. Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed before their attempts doesn't mean that the challenge needs to be altered or is less of a challenge for the individual. Again, I'm not against making certs tougher to achieve. But it sounds like there's a touch of bitterness that these study guides weren't around way back when...well, that's just the way life is. Making the CCIE tougher and still calling it the CCIE is like asking runners to run a 400m race, but then making them run 500m without telling them. ;-) Besides, the argument about the study materials is subjective. Was CCO around when you took the CCIE? Were other engineers around who were studying for it? Were used routers around for you to purchase, and perhaps set up for others to telnet into? I'm sure there were - if you (and/or others) didn't make use of them, then that's water under the source-route bridge. If you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the people who took the CCIE, passed or not, and then went out and wrote books on how to study for the CCIE. But I personally don't think these people are doing a disservice to the CCIE, nor are they devaluing it - and with a consistent 80% failure rate, they're certainly not making it less challenging. The study guides, etc. make it more of a group effort, and there's nothing wrong with that - not against the rules, not against the NDA, and our society wins because we're able to learn from (and teach to) one another, thereby filling the desperate need we have today for knowledgeable network engineers. Don't punish those of us who have not yet earned our CCIE status for using the resources which are available to us - or for having the foresight to create and share new resources. It really sounds like your argument is that it should be more of a dog-eat-dog world than a world where we're allowed to cooperate and share knowledge. Am I wrong? If so, why? - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 8:56 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I willing to have the tougher recerts and the tougher challenge with my 2nd CCIE cert. The bar has been lowered due to the deluge of study materials that are now present to assist you. I'm for putting the bar back to where it was taking into consideration the additional study aids available. Louie and also wrote... When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their rights to do so. I just hope they don't call it the CCIE - call it something different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever). - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Louie if you walk into a totally dark room and fall into a three foot hole, how many feet have you fallen. If you walk into an amply lit room and fall into a three foot hole, how many feet have you fallen. The bar hasn't been lowered the situation just got brighter. You didn't obtain the needed skills by birth, you had to obtain them somewhere. Obviously they are easier to find now. I would venture to say that anything that is on the Lab exam is freely available on the CCO site.and was when you prepared for your exam, condensening that info and repackaging it just makes it easier to prepare. How many feet do you have to climb to get out of that hole lights on or off? 3 When I decided to obtain my CCIE in 98 there was probably only a hand full of books. I am glad I waited, got my DP/NP a deluxe lab and plenty of resources. Instead of trying it with a handful of Cisco press books and maybe Giles. I believe his was the first guide. please correct me if I am wrong. Don - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 6:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael L. Williams Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten their CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying something like that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen) to now say Sure.. make it as difficult as possible I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them said that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is too cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a resonable solution. Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1 day? Not to raise the bar of the level of the exam, but simply because they're testing centers can't handle the demand. Mashing into 1 day, IMHO, would be a very poor decision. Agreeing with Brad, do all of the CCIEs that are out there have a problem with leaving the bar where it was when you passed it? It only seems fair. Mike W. Bradley J. Wilson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their rights to do so. I just hope they don't call it the CCIE - call it something different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever). - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests tougher as well. I'm up to the challenge - are you?
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
.PICTURE THE SCENE... it`s 8.30am your palms are sweating so much you try and pull open the door of the cisco building your hands slips of the rail and you land smack on your rump.a man walks past trying not to laugh with the words Cisco Proctor emblazoned on a badge pinned to his jacket... BAD START you at last walk through the door and attempt to speak your name to the receptionist ...who replies.. i don`t have a cuuuccc laarieee on my listso you write it down ..she smiles back oh !chuck ... she says the smile becomes a frown ,becomes a look of horror as she see`s CCIE LAB ...written next to you name .and points you in the direction of the coffeethere you run into me..Barking at the moon shaped light ( WAY too much caffeine)..and cast your eyes on the other sleep deprived (half mad) students all talking in ios commands .. a man runs up to you and says THERE CAN`T BE ANY IPX ON THE LAB CAN THERE..CAN THERE and promptly passes out ,mumblings something about how stupid the tic is suddenly you cheer-up.heyif everyone else is this bad i should be fine..and proceed to guzzle 2 pints of Red-bull ...just then the proctor strolls out..(GIT ...you think he`s already passed the exam..) GENTLEMENjust a quick note ...the lab is now scheduled for one daythe plus side to this is that you`ll know by tonight if you have passed ...the bad news is that you now have 3 hours to build and configure the network...( impossible you think,and you would be right)...1 hour for lunch and 4 hours to fix what i did to your network ...as he turns he says... yesterday i ended a long-term relationship and i`m in a VERY bad mood.to which news i stop howling and start crying ...everyone else simply picks up there bags and says Rollocks! ...and leaves...what you do now is up to you But i hardly think that something as simple as a one day lab is worth worrying about ...Hey its only the rest of your life. howling mad steve From: Chuck Larrieu Reply-To: Chuck Larrieu To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:00:14 -0400 with regards to the contents of the exam, I am reminded of the time I told my son that when I was his age I could name all the presidents of the IUnited States, to which he answered there were only 5 or six of them back then :- with regards to the value of the CCIE, whatever that may be, like it or not, there are tens of thousands of us wannabes in the queue. Assuming normal progress, that tells me that in 5 more years, there will be tens of thousands of CCIE's. Ain't nothing anyone can do about that. Louie, let me ask - if you were to walk into the lab tomorrow, do you think you could pass? if not, of what value is your CCIE? I have a sneaking suspoicion that most CCIE's, unless they passed the lab very recently, would not get through it again without some devoted study. kinda like passing the bar, or the CPA exam? Chuck tride hard to keep out of this one, but. Louie Belt wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree there is no way to talk apples to apples - too many things have changed - but don't forget you no longer have to deal with LAT, X.25, CLNS, DEC, Banyan Vines, Appollo, Appletalk or ATM Lane. (Voice was already on the lab prior to these items being removed.) My concern is with the material that is not focused on teaching you networking (I have no problem with that), but on the material the simply teaches you how to pass the test (kind of like all of the Microsoft braindump material available - desinged only to help you pass the test). I see too much material as of late that is way too focused on passing the lab, not on learning networking. Louie -Original Message- From: Circusnuts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:01 PM To: Louie Belt; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here... During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could confirm this rumor) can you imagine how much easier the lab would have been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things like bad time management poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever been. Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o) Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisc
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Rumour of new lab test centre in London. Anyone confirm or deny. Gaz Gernot W. Schmied wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi, Great. Nowadays you have IPSec, MPLS, Voice, Optical and you still need CLNS/CLNP for IS-IS. You can also argue whether Appletalk or IPX should be removed or not. These are important protocols that should be placed in an add-on certification for Desktop or Client/server issues. Me thinks people are right claiming that in IOS 9.xx or 10.xx times the exam was easier. It's the sheer amount of topics and their synergies that are killing us now. I'd happily trade X.25 or DecNet versus MPLS or IPsec ;-). Just kidding, these topics are far too interesting. Besides, hopefully we all learned from the failure of the Design CCIE. It is not possible to measure one's ability in design and architecture objectively. Hence, me thinks the CCND is pointless and waste of time too. One can also argue whether a CCIE lab based on time-pressure and protocol memorization is the best way of measuring a candidate's ability in network engineering. My 0.02$, Gernot Louie Belt wrote: I agree there is no way to talk apples to apples - too many things have changed - but don't forget you no longer have to deal with LAT, X.25, CLNS, DEC, Banyan Vines, Appollo, Appletalk or ATM Lane. (Voice was already on the lab prior to these items being removed.) My concern is with the material that is not focused on teaching you networking (I have no problem with that), but on the material the simply teaches you how to pass the test (kind of like all of the Microsoft braindump material available - desinged only to help you pass the test). I see too much material as of late that is way too focused on passing the lab, not on learning networking. Louie Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=7098t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Man Chuck, I didn't know you were that old? Chuck's response actually brought up something interesting. How many current CCIE's could just walk in and pass the lab again? I know several CCIE's that could walk in off the street and pass the CCIE lab without a problem, but I also know a couple of CCIE's that would take another 3 or 4 attempt and months of study to pass again. What if cisco upped the ante and made a mandatory recert every 3 years by re-taking the lab exam? That would keep the CCIE certification respectable wouldn't it? just my $0.02 tim Tim Medley Network Architect VoIP Group iReadyWorld -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chuck Larrieu Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 9:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] with regards to the contents of the exam, I am reminded of the time I told my son that when I was his age I could name all the presidents of the IUnited States, to which he answered there were only 5 or six of them back then :- with regards to the value of the CCIE, whatever that may be, like it or not, there are tens of thousands of us wannabes in the queue. Assuming normal progress, that tells me that in 5 more years, there will be tens of thousands of CCIE's. Ain't nothing anyone can do about that. Louie, let me ask - if you were to walk into the lab tomorrow, do you think you could pass? if not, of what value is your CCIE? I have a sneaking suspoicion that most CCIE's, unless they passed the lab very recently, would not get through it again without some devoted study. kinda like passing the bar, or the CPA exam? Chuck tride hard to keep out of this one, but. Louie Belt wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree there is no way to talk apples to apples - too many things have changed - but don't forget you no longer have to deal with LAT, X.25, CLNS, DEC, Banyan Vines, Appollo, Appletalk or ATM Lane. (Voice was already on the lab prior to these items being removed.) My concern is with the material that is not focused on teaching you networking (I have no problem with that), but on the material the simply teaches you how to pass the test (kind of like all of the Microsoft braindump material available - desinged only to help you pass the test). I see too much material as of late that is way too focused on passing the lab, not on learning networking. Louie -Original Message- From: Circusnuts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:01 PM To: Louie Belt; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here... During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could confirm this rumor) can you imagine how much easier the lab would have been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things like bad time management poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever been. Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o) Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael L. Williams Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten their CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying something like that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen) to now say Sure.. make it as difficult as possible I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them said that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is too cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a resonable solution. Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1 day? Not to raise the bar of the level of the exam, but simply because
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Your comment Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. I agree, and I think shortening the lab to one day will mean that the testing will have to be even more specific. If you know anything can come up on the lab, then you have to know everything, *unless* there is not enough variety of exam, so a group of 3-4 candidates taking the exam together may fail a couple of times, but by that time they know what all the labs are. (Although I'm sure that doesn't happen - much). A larger variety of labs would suppress this sort of thing. A shorter lab can only increase the multiple attempt methodology (eventually I'll get one I (we) know). It looks like I may not be going to CCIE now, mainly due to the diversity of products our company supports. I don't think I can concentrate enough on Cisco. Even so, I would not like to see the CCIE devalued. Devalue the CCIE and it automatically devalues the CCNP etc (rightly or wrongly). Gaz Louie Belt wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed before their attempts doesn't mean that the challenge needs to be altered or is less of a challenge for the individual. Again, I'm not against making certs tougher to achieve. But it sounds like there's a touch of bitterness that these study guides weren't around way back when...well, that's just the way life is. Making the CCIE tougher and still calling it the CCIE is like asking runners to run a 400m race, but then making them run 500m without telling them. ;-) Besides, the argument about the study materials is subjective. Was CCO around when you took the CCIE? Were other engineers around who were studying for it? Were used routers around for you to purchase, and perhaps set up for others to telnet into? I'm sure there were - if you (and/or others) didn't make use of them, then that's water under the source-route bridge. If you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the people who took the CCIE, passed or not, and then went out and wrote books on how to study for the CCIE. But I pe
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Kevin brings up a good point. By reducing the number of people who are authorized to take the lab, the waiting list for the lab will shrink. I think that it's time that Cisco bring the CCIE into the certification track with the other certs. Personally, I found the CCIE written to be rather easy compared to the CID exam. I don't think I'd let the CCNP/CCDP be the prerequisite however. I think I'd rather keep the CCIE written qualifier as a separate, yet progressively more difficult exam, perhaps by keeping the current content, but adding more questions relevant to today's large scale networks. The new order of certification might be CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCDP, CCIE Written, each certification being a prerequisite for the next. I don't necessarily think that a change to the CCIE lab is in order, mainly since I've heard that while the number of people taking (or waiting to take) the lab has increased, the passing rate has pretty much stayed the same. Craig At 04:35 PM 6/2/2001 -0400, you wrote: This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). When the junior certs were introduced, it was pondered whether they should be a pre-requisite to the CCIE written or as I have read before - make the CCNP/CCDP the pre-requisite for the lab. On a FAQ at one time, Cisco said that eventually the CCIE would become part of the career certification track which was to say that you would need to go through the junior certs before attempting the CCIE. With the onslaught of new study material, bootcamps, virtual racks et al, I think it is time that the CCIE written be retired and the CCNP/CCDP be the CCIE lab authorization. Or, because the CCIE written still has stuff that is not talked about much any more (if at all) in the current R/S curriculum, then a smaller CCIE written to cover those topics but integrate it into the present career track. CCNA - CCNP/CCDP - CCIE Written - CCIE lab. This way, we could get rid of the idea of passing one exam and then clogging the calendar for the CCIE lab. If you have to get from 4 - 7 exams before the lab, that would perhaps slow things down and maybe (just maybe) increase the success rate at the lab. Hopefully this would stave off any loss of respect for the cert and perhaps even increase it. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, 02 June, 2001 09:33 Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests tougher as well. I'm up to the challenge - are you? Louie Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6990t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I don't want to bash you Louie but I sent you an email a couple of months ago and asked for some opinions on what books I should purchase for the CCIE lab( I supplied a list of the ones I thought) and if the study methods I was employing were adequate in preparation for the lab and didn't get a response ( I didn't ask for specifics such as IOS verions on the lab or topics covered in your lab) I know that you are probably busy as a CCIE, but I just want you and everyone else to know that you are not as helpful as you advertise yourself to be. From: Louie Belt Reply-To: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:06:15 -0400 Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed before their attempts doesn't mean that the challenge needs to be altered or is less of a challenge for the individual. Again, I'm not against making certs tougher to achieve. But it sounds like there's a touch of bitterness that these study guides weren't around way back when...well, that's just the way life is. Making the CCIE tougher and still calling it the CCIE is like asking runners to run a 400m race, but then making them run 500m without telling them. ;-) Besides, the argument about the study materials is subjective. Was CCO around when you took the CCIE? Were other engineers around who were studying for it? Were used routers around for you to purchase, and perhaps set up for others to telnet into? I'm sure there were - if you (and/or others) didn't make use of them, then that's water under the source-route bridge. If you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the people who took the CCIE, passed or not, and then went out and wrote books on how to study for the CCIE. But I personally don't think these people are doing a disservice to the CCIE, nor are they devaluing it - and with a consistent 80% failure rate, they're certainly not making it less challenging. The study guides, etc. make it more of a group effort, and there's nothing wrong with that - not against the rules, not against the NDA, and our society wins because we're able to learn from (and teach to) one another, thereby filling the desperate need we have today for knowledgeable network engineers. Don't punish those of us who have not yet earned our CCIE status for using the resources which are available to us - or for having the foresight to create and share new resources. It really sounds like your argument is that it should be more
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Interesting, you've modified the R/S track into one line instead of an operation track and a design track. I kinda like it, get the CCDA before the CCNP and then get the CCDP before attempting CCIE. I think that this would create much more rounded professionals, having elements of both design and support in a cert. I'm probably a bit biased though because that's exactly the order I took :-) (except the CCIE part) Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Craig Columbus To: Kevin Wigle Cc: Sent: Sunday, 03 June, 2001 12:18 Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Kevin brings up a good point. By reducing the number of people who are authorized to take the lab, the waiting list for the lab will shrink. I think that it's time that Cisco bring the CCIE into the certification track with the other certs. Personally, I found the CCIE written to be rather easy compared to the CID exam. I don't think I'd let the CCNP/CCDP be the prerequisite however. I think I'd rather keep the CCIE written qualifier as a separate, yet progressively more difficult exam, perhaps by keeping the current content, but adding more questions relevant to today's large scale networks. The new order of certification might be CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCDP, CCIE Written, each certification being a prerequisite for the next. I don't necessarily think that a change to the CCIE lab is in order, mainly since I've heard that while the number of people taking (or waiting to take) the lab has increased, the passing rate has pretty much stayed the same. Craig At 04:35 PM 6/2/2001 -0400, you wrote: This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). When the junior certs were introduced, it was pondered whether they should be a pre-requisite to the CCIE written or as I have read before - make the CCNP/CCDP the pre-requisite for the lab. On a FAQ at one time, Cisco said that eventually the CCIE would become part of the career certification track which was to say that you would need to go through the junior certs before attempting the CCIE. With the onslaught of new study material, bootcamps, virtual racks et al, I think it is time that the CCIE written be retired and the CCNP/CCDP be the CCIE lab authorization. Or, because the CCIE written still has stuff that is not talked about much any more (if at all) in the current R/S curriculum, then a smaller CCIE written to cover those topics but integrate it into the present career track. CCNA - CCNP/CCDP - CCIE Written - CCIE lab. This way, we could get rid of the idea of passing one exam and then clogging the calendar for the CCIE lab. If you have to get from 4 - 7 exams before the lab, that would perhaps slow things down and maybe (just maybe) increase the success rate at the lab. Hopefully this would stave off any loss of respect for the cert and perhaps even increase it. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, 02 June, 2001 09:33 Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests tougher as well. I'm up to the challenge - are you? Louie Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6993t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
By reducing the number of people who are authorized to take the lab, the waiting list for the lab will shrink I can't argue with this statement. However, as explained below, I don't think reducing the number of people authorized to take the lab is the solution. I'll say this once more, since no one has given me any feedback about this opinion (which I've posted before): The waiting list for the lab is longer now for 2 reasons: 1) More people are attempting the CCIE than a year ago or before. 2) Cisco, in large part, is responsible for this backlog for the lab because they have not created more lab exam locations to meet the rising demand. If anything, they have somewhat created this backlog because they reduced the number of lab testing locations in North America from 3 to 2. The act of reducing the number of testing locations by 33% (assuming demand were constant, which I believe it has actually risen) would explain why the 2 remaining locations are overrun with applicants. Given these two reasons, I'd like to hear feedback on whether or not people agree that this explains the backlog. Furthermore, I'd like to hear comments on my assertion that, because these 2 things are mainly responsible for the backlog, that the CCIE written and lab do not need modification because their difficulty (or lack of on some people's opinion) is *not* the cause of the backlog to begin with. Comments are welcomed. (begged for actually =) Priscilla, Chuck, Louie. speak up =) Mike W. PS: I think that making CCNA - CCNP a prerequisite for even taking the CCIE written would relieve some of the congestion in the waiting line for the lab and create a more rounded CCIE candidate. I knew from the beginning that going for CCIE without CCNA/CCNP was an option, but I wanted a fuller understanding of networking, so I chose to do CCNA/CCDA/CCNP/CCDP before even attempting CCIE lab, so I could be a CCIE worthy the title. Craig Columbus wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Kevin brings up a good point. By reducing the number of people who are authorized to take the lab, the waiting list for the lab will shrink. I think that it's time that Cisco bring the CCIE into the certification track with the other certs. Personally, I found the CCIE written to be rather easy compared to the CID exam. I don't think I'd let the CCNP/CCDP be the prerequisite however. I think I'd rather keep the CCIE written qualifier as a separate, yet progressively more difficult exam, perhaps by keeping the current content, but adding more questions relevant to today's large scale networks. The new order of certification might be CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCDP, CCIE Written, each certification being a prerequisite for the next. I don't necessarily think that a change to the CCIE lab is in order, mainly since I've heard that while the number of people taking (or waiting to take) the lab has increased, the passing rate has pretty much stayed the same. Craig At 04:35 PM 6/2/2001 -0400, you wrote: This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). When the junior certs were introduced, it was pondered whether they should be a pre-requisite to the CCIE written or as I have read before - make the CCNP/CCDP the pre-requisite for the lab. On a FAQ at one time, Cisco said that eventually the CCIE would become part of the career certification track which was to say that you would need to go through the junior certs before attempting the CCIE. With the onslaught of new study material, bootcamps, virtual racks et al, I think it is time that the CCIE written be retired and the CCNP/CCDP be the CCIE lab authorization. Or, because the CCIE written still has stuff that is not talked about much any more (if at all) in the current R/S curriculum, then a smaller CCIE written to cover those topics but integrate it into the present career track. CCNA - CCNP/CCDP - CCIE Written - CCIE lab. This way, we could get rid of the idea of passing one exam and then clogging the calendar for the CCIE lab. If you have to get from 4 - 7 exams before the lab, that would perhaps slow things down and maybe (just maybe) increase the success rate at the lab. Hopefully this would stave off any loss of respect for the cert and perhaps even increase it. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, 02 June, 2001 09:33 Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased st
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
You're correct that Cisco hasn't been in a big hurry to add lab facilities. But, I'm not sure that I want additional facilities. Part of the problem with the CCIE certification process is that there are only two tests and successful candidates are (usually) paid quite well. Let's say that a candidate has to take the written 4 times to pass ($1200) and the lab 4 times to pass ($5000). For a net investment of $6200, the newly minted CCIE, even with EXTREMELY limited experience, should be able to increase his annual compensation by at least $10,000. The long-term return on investment is, frankly, astounding. Would only morons pass tests? Of course not. There will always be truly talented individuals who seek the CCIE cert. Yet, how many times would a company have to hire a CCIE who passed via persistance rather than knowledge, before the company decided CCIEs weren't very knowledgeable? I've seen this very situation happen with any number of certs, including CNE, MCSE, and CCNA. I, for one, don't wish this to happen to the CCIE. The solution to the problem is to limit the number of people allowed to take the lab. One fair way to do this is to make the qualifications more stringent and to increase the waiting period between lab attempts. My lab is coming up faster than I would like, but if I don't pass on the first attempt, I think it would be quite reasonable for Cisco to require a 6 month wait before I could attempt the lab again. Would it be frustrating, especially if I narrowly failed? You bet. But then again, it'd make it that much sweeter when I finally passed. Just my $0.02... Craig At 01:40 PM 6/3/2001 -0400, you wrote: By reducing the number of people who are authorized to take the lab, the waiting list for the lab will shrink I can't argue with this statement. However, as explained below, I don't think reducing the number of people authorized to take the lab is the solution. I'll say this once more, since no one has given me any feedback about this opinion (which I've posted before): The waiting list for the lab is longer now for 2 reasons: 1) More people are attempting the CCIE than a year ago or before. 2) Cisco, in large part, is responsible for this backlog for the lab because they have not created more lab exam locations to meet the rising demand. If anything, they have somewhat created this backlog because they reduced the number of lab testing locations in North America from 3 to 2. The act of reducing the number of testing locations by 33% (assuming demand were constant, which I believe it has actually risen) would explain why the 2 remaining locations are overrun with applicants. Given these two reasons, I'd like to hear feedback on whether or not people agree that this explains the backlog. Furthermore, I'd like to hear comments on my assertion that, because these 2 things are mainly responsible for the backlog, that the CCIE written and lab do not need modification because their difficulty (or lack of on some people's opinion) is *not* the cause of the backlog to begin with. Comments are welcomed. (begged for actually =) Priscilla, Chuck, Louie. speak up =) Mike W. PS: I think that making CCNA - CCNP a prerequisite for even taking the CCIE written would relieve some of the congestion in the waiting line for the lab and create a more rounded CCIE candidate. I knew from the beginning that going for CCIE without CCNA/CCNP was an option, but I wanted a fuller understanding of networking, so I chose to do CCNA/CCDA/CCNP/CCDP before even attempting CCIE lab, so I could be a CCIE worthy the title. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6998t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I have had numerous requests and have been unable to help everyone or answer everyone's questions. I do not have the time to help all that ask. I'll be the first to admit that I have ignored a number of email message due to time constraints. But you will also find a number of people that I have helped and some that I continue to help in a very focused manner. I'm not applying for saint-hood and don't intend to, but I don't have time to answer every individual request. My responses would be the same that I have seen on this site a multitude of times: As for books: TCP/IP Volume I and Volume II are a must. Caslow's 2nd edition is also a must have. Halibi is good for theory but lacks good examples with router configs. McGraw Hill's Bridging, DLSW+ and Desktop Protocols is a must as well (skip the appletalk section) Stay away from the CCIE all in one LAB study guide - it is a waste of time. CCBootcamp still offers the best labs for preparation, Mentor labs is OK for small practice labs on specific issues. Use the documentation CD to find all answers - no matter how painful it is. Practice timing and methodology. Intermix IOS versions in you lab. And of course practice, practice, practice - time managment is critical. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Cisco Kidd Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I don't want to bash you Louie but I sent you an email a couple of months ago and asked for some opinions on what books I should purchase for the CCIE lab( I supplied a list of the ones I thought) and if the study methods I was employing were adequate in preparation for the lab and didn't get a response ( I didn't ask for specifics such as IOS verions on the lab or topics covered in your lab) I know that you are probably busy as a CCIE, but I just want you and everyone else to know that you are not as helpful as you advertise yourself to be. From: Louie Belt Reply-To: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:06:15 -0400 Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed before their attempts doesn't mean that the challenge needs to be altered or is less of a challenge for the individual. Again, I'm not against making certs tougher to achieve. But it sounds like there's a touch of bitterness that these study guides weren't around way
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Louie- I see that you recommended this book... http://www.bestwebbuys.com/books/compare/isbn/0071354573 Have you read the Cisco Press SNA (by the Sacketts), or are you saying McGraw Hill was a better read ??? Thanks Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 2:25 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I have had numerous requests and have been unable to help everyone or answer everyone's questions. I do not have the time to help all that ask. I'll be the first to admit that I have ignored a number of email message due to time constraints. But you will also find a number of people that I have helped and some that I continue to help in a very focused manner. I'm not applying for saint-hood and don't intend to, but I don't have time to answer every individual request. My responses would be the same that I have seen on this site a multitude of times: As for books: TCP/IP Volume I and Volume II are a must. Caslow's 2nd edition is also a must have. Halibi is good for theory but lacks good examples with router configs. McGraw Hill's Bridging, DLSW+ and Desktop Protocols is a must as well (skip the appletalk section) Stay away from the CCIE all in one LAB study guide - it is a waste of time. CCBootcamp still offers the best labs for preparation, Mentor labs is OK for small practice labs on specific issues. Use the documentation CD to find all answers - no matter how painful it is. Practice timing and methodology. Intermix IOS versions in you lab. And of course practice, practice, practice - time managment is critical. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Cisco Kidd Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I don't want to bash you Louie but I sent you an email a couple of months ago and asked for some opinions on what books I should purchase for the CCIE lab( I supplied a list of the ones I thought) and if the study methods I was employing were adequate in preparation for the lab and didn't get a response ( I didn't ask for specifics such as IOS verions on the lab or topics covered in your lab) I know that you are probably busy as a CCIE, but I just want you and everyone else to know that you are not as helpful as you advertise yourself to be. From: Louie Belt Reply-To: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:06:15 -0400 Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I apologize to you Louie because I know you are busy. Thanks for the info. From: Louie Belt Reply-To: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:25:59 -0400 I have had numerous requests and have been unable to help everyone or answer everyone's questions. I do not have the time to help all that ask. I'll be the first to admit that I have ignored a number of email message due to time constraints. But you will also find a number of people that I have helped and some that I continue to help in a very focused manner. I'm not applying for saint-hood and don't intend to, but I don't have time to answer every individual request. My responses would be the same that I have seen on this site a multitude of times: As for books: TCP/IP Volume I and Volume II are a must. Caslow's 2nd edition is also a must have. Halibi is good for theory but lacks good examples with router configs. McGraw Hill's Bridging, DLSW+ and Desktop Protocols is a must as well (skip the appletalk section) Stay away from the CCIE all in one LAB study guide - it is a waste of time. CCBootcamp still offers the best labs for preparation, Mentor labs is OK for small practice labs on specific issues. Use the documentation CD to find all answers - no matter how painful it is. Practice timing and methodology. Intermix IOS versions in you lab. And of course practice, practice, practice - time managment is critical. Louie-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Cisco Kidd Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I don't want to bash you Louie but I sent you an email a couple of months ago and asked for some opinions on what books I should purchase for the CCIE lab( I supplied a list of the ones I thought) and if the study methods I was employing were adequate in preparation for the lab and didn't get a response ( I didn't ask for specifics such as IOS verions on the lab or topics covered in your lab) I know that you are probably busy as a CCIE, but I just want you and everyone else to know that you are not as helpful as you advertise yourself to be. From: Louie Belt Reply-To: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:06:15 -0400 Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed before their attempts doesn't mean
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Oh come on Louie, I know your the real Messiah, after all I should know I've followed a few. K - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I have had numerous requests and have been unable to help everyone or answer everyone's questions. I do not have the time to help all that ask. I'll be the first to admit that I have ignored a number of email message due to time constraints. But you will also find a number of people that I have helped and some that I continue to help in a very focused manner. I'm not applying for saint-hood and don't intend to, but I don't have time to answer every individual request. My responses would be the same that I have seen on this site a multitude of times: As for books: TCP/IP Volume I and Volume II are a must. Caslow's 2nd edition is also a must have. Halibi is good for theory but lacks good examples with router configs. McGraw Hill's Bridging, DLSW+ and Desktop Protocols is a must as well (skip the appletalk section) Stay away from the CCIE all in one LAB study guide - it is a waste of time. CCBootcamp still offers the best labs for preparation, Mentor labs is OK for small practice labs on specific issues. Use the documentation CD to find all answers - no matter how painful it is. Practice timing and methodology. Intermix IOS versions in you lab. And of course practice, practice, practice - time managment is critical. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Cisco Kidd Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I don't want to bash you Louie but I sent you an email a couple of months ago and asked for some opinions on what books I should purchase for the CCIE lab( I supplied a list of the ones I thought) and if the study methods I was employing were adequate in preparation for the lab and didn't get a response ( I didn't ask for specifics such as IOS verions on the lab or topics covered in your lab) I know that you are probably busy as a CCIE, but I just want you and everyone else to know that you are not as helpful as you advertise yourself to be. From: Louie Belt Reply-To: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:06:15 -0400 Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Oh come on Louie, I know your the real Messiah, after all I should know I've followed a few. K - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I have had numerous requests and have been unable to help everyone or answer everyone's questions. I do not have the time to help all that ask. I'll be the first to admit that I have ignored a number of email message due to time constraints. But you will also find a number of people that I have helped and some that I continue to help in a very focused manner. I'm not applying for saint-hood and don't intend to, but I don't have time to answer every individual request. My responses would be the same that I have seen on this site a multitude of times: As for books: TCP/IP Volume I and Volume II are a must. Caslow's 2nd edition is also a must have. Halibi is good for theory but lacks good examples with router configs. McGraw Hill's Bridging, DLSW+ and Desktop Protocols is a must as well (skip the appletalk section) Stay away from the CCIE all in one LAB study guide - it is a waste of time. CCBootcamp still offers the best labs for preparation, Mentor labs is OK for small practice labs on specific issues. Use the documentation CD to find all answers - no matter how painful it is. Practice timing and methodology. Intermix IOS versions in you lab. And of course practice, practice, practice - time managment is critical. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Cisco Kidd Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I don't want to bash you Louie but I sent you an email a couple of months ago and asked for some opinions on what books I should purchase for the CCIE lab( I supplied a list of the ones I thought) and if the study methods I was employing were adequate in preparation for the lab and didn't get a response ( I didn't ask for specifics such as IOS verions on the lab or topics covered in your lab) I know that you are probably busy as a CCIE, but I just want you and everyone else to know that you are not as helpful as you advertise yourself to be. From: Louie Belt Reply-To: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:06:15 -0400 Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Oh come on Louie, I know your the real Messiah, after all I should know I've followed a few. K - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I have had numerous requests and have been unable to help everyone or answer everyone's questions. I do not have the time to help all that ask. I'll be the first to admit that I have ignored a number of email message due to time constraints. But you will also find a number of people that I have helped and some that I continue to help in a very focused manner. I'm not applying for saint-hood and don't intend to, but I don't have time to answer every individual request. My responses would be the same that I have seen on this site a multitude of times: As for books: TCP/IP Volume I and Volume II are a must. Caslow's 2nd edition is also a must have. Halibi is good for theory but lacks good examples with router configs. McGraw Hill's Bridging, DLSW+ and Desktop Protocols is a must as well (skip the appletalk section) Stay away from the CCIE all in one LAB study guide - it is a waste of time. CCBootcamp still offers the best labs for preparation, Mentor labs is OK for small practice labs on specific issues. Use the documentation CD to find all answers - no matter how painful it is. Practice timing and methodology. Intermix IOS versions in you lab. And of course practice, practice, practice - time managment is critical. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Cisco Kidd Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I don't want to bash you Louie but I sent you an email a couple of months ago and asked for some opinions on what books I should purchase for the CCIE lab( I supplied a list of the ones I thought) and if the study methods I was employing were adequate in preparation for the lab and didn't get a response ( I didn't ask for specifics such as IOS verions on the lab or topics covered in your lab) I know that you are probably busy as a CCIE, but I just want you and everyone else to know that you are not as helpful as you advertise yourself to be. From: Louie Belt Reply-To: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:06:15 -0400 Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests tougher as well. I'm up to the challenge - are you? Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Forgive my cynicism, but any CCIE *would* want the lab to be tougher - they would know that any CCIEs that came along after they received their number increase the supply, thus lowering the cost of the good. ;-) I think Cisco ought to be asking companies who *hire* CCIEs what skills *they* would like to see in those who carry the CCIE certification - not the number-carrying CCIEs themselves. BJ P.S. And while I'm feeling cynical...can we please move the NT vs. UNIX nonsense to private emails or perhaps a different mail list? Thenks. - Original Message - From: Belt, Louie To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day lab - and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials available to help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken some of the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they keep it a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert. I also told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who succeed. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ sco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6876t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their rights to do so. I just hope they don't call it the CCIE - call it something different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever). - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests tougher as well. I'm up to the challenge - are you? Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Forgive my cynicism, but any CCIE *would* want the lab to be tougher - they would know that any CCIEs that came along after they received their number increase the supply, thus lowering the cost of the good. ;-) I think Cisco ought to be asking companies who *hire* CCIEs what skills *they* would like to see in those who carry the CCIE certification - not the number-carrying CCIEs themselves. BJ P.S. And while I'm feeling cynical...can we please move the NT vs. UNIX nonsense to private emails or perhaps a different mail list? Thenks. - Original Message - From: Belt, Louie To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day lab - and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials available to help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken some of the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they keep it a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert. I also told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who succeed. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ sco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6884t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten their CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying something like that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen) to now say Sure.. make it as difficult as possible I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them said that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is too cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a resonable solution. Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1 day? Not to raise the bar of the level of the exam, but simply because they're testing centers can't handle the demand. Mashing into 1 day, IMHO, would be a very poor decision. Agreeing with Brad, do all of the CCIEs that are out there have a problem with leaving the bar where it was when you passed it? It only seems fair. Mike W. Bradley J. Wilson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their rights to do so. I just hope they don't call it the CCIE - call it something different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever). - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests tougher as well. I'm up to the challenge - are you? Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Forgive my cynicism, but any CCIE *would* want the lab to be tougher - they would know that any CCIEs that came along after they received their number increase the supply, thus lowering the cost of the good. ;-) I think Cisco ought to be asking companies who *hire* CCIEs what skills *they* would like to see in those who carry the CCIE certification - not the number-carrying CCIEs themselves. BJ P.S. And while I'm feeling cynical...can we please move the NT vs. UNIX nonsense to private emails or perhaps a different mail list? Thenks. - Original Message - From: Belt, Louie To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day lab - and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials available to help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken some of the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they keep it a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert. I also told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who succeed. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I'm a little puzzled by all this. Certifications are fine, but they are a beginning, not an end. Now, I freely admit I'm in an odd position. As far as I am concerned, I met the equivalent difficulty of CCIE in the pre-1975 CCSI program, which was radically different. I can't see my career advancement being improved in the slightest by having a CCIE, because I have credentials that are worth more to me. Now that Cisco is so aggressive against study sites, I've made a conscious decision not to get a CCIE so I can't be accused of NDA violations. Yet I think my record is sufficient to demonstrate I believe in helping people getting CCIE and lesser certificates. But I do believe that at some point, certification is enough. Even in medicine, you go through National Boards, then usually the boards for family practice or a primary specialty, maybe a specialty like cardiology or infectious disease that does have a certification, but even fellowship training beyond that doesn't have certification requirements. There may be a need to take a certain amount of continuing education courses. But the real credentials come with doing, and that can be in an assortment of areas. I've designed some big and complex networks, but now work more on protocol performance and product design (and no, I can't get into what I'm working on). But one indication might be my most active IETF activity on BGP router convergence, the new edition of which will be coauthored by Nortel, Cisco, Nexthop, and Juniper. Participating in professional societies is a real thing you can do, and don't tell me it's too difficult. Local groups of IEEE, ACM, etc., meet locally, as do many user groups. Most of the IETF and NANOG work is done on open mailing lists, although it does help to go to meetings. Presenting your more interesting designs and troubleshooting can fall into professional activities, mentoring programs, etc. Trade and professional journals always are looking for contributors. You think having three or four or five pages of publications and presentations doesn't help your resume? Guess again. When it comes to passing exams, there is a point at which I remember the technical term used for the dumbest medical student that passes through school: doctor. Make the CCIE lab more difficult? With more unrealistic rules like don't use static routes when they are appropriate design? Keep trying to show complex phenomena with six routers that really might not show up before sixty? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6901t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). When the junior certs were introduced, it was pondered whether they should be a pre-requisite to the CCIE written or as I have read before - make the CCNP/CCDP the pre-requisite for the lab. On a FAQ at one time, Cisco said that eventually the CCIE would become part of the career certification track which was to say that you would need to go through the junior certs before attempting the CCIE. With the onslaught of new study material, bootcamps, virtual racks et al, I think it is time that the CCIE written be retired and the CCNP/CCDP be the CCIE lab authorization. Or, because the CCIE written still has stuff that is not talked about much any more (if at all) in the current R/S curriculum, then a smaller CCIE written to cover those topics but integrate it into the present career track. CCNA - CCNP/CCDP - CCIE Written - CCIE lab. This way, we could get rid of the idea of passing one exam and then clogging the calendar for the CCIE lab. If you have to get from 4 - 7 exams before the lab, that would perhaps slow things down and maybe (just maybe) increase the success rate at the lab. Hopefully this would stave off any loss of respect for the cert and perhaps even increase it. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, 02 June, 2001 09:33 Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests tougher as well. I'm up to the challenge - are you? Louie Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6909t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed before their attempts doesn't mean that the challenge needs to be altered or is less of a challenge for the individual. Again, I'm not against making certs tougher to achieve. But it sounds like there's a touch of bitterness that these study guides weren't around way back when...well, that's just the way life is. Making the CCIE tougher and still calling it the CCIE is like asking runners to run a 400m race, but then making them run 500m without telling them. ;-) Besides, the argument about the study materials is subjective. Was CCO around when you took the CCIE? Were other engineers around who were studying for it? Were used routers around for you to purchase, and perhaps set up for others to telnet into? I'm sure there were - if you (and/or others) didn't make use of them, then that's water under the source-route bridge. If you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the people who took the CCIE, passed or not, and then went out and wrote books on how to study for the CCIE. But I personally don't think these people are doing a disservice to the CCIE, nor are they devaluing it - and with a consistent 80% failure rate, they're certainly not making it less challenging. The study guides, etc. make it more of a group effort, and there's nothing wrong with that - not against the rules, not against the NDA, and our society wins because we're able to learn from (and teach to) one another, thereby filling the desperate need we have today for knowledgeable network engineers. Don't punish those of us who have not yet earned our CCIE status for using the resources which are available to us - or for having the foresight to create and share new resources. It really sounds like your argument is that it should be more of a dog-eat-dog world than a world where we're allowed to cooperate and share knowledge. Am I wrong? If so, why? - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 8:56 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I willing to have the tougher recerts and the tougher challenge with my 2nd CCIE cert. The bar has been lowered due to the deluge of study materials that are now present to assist you. I'm for putting the bar back to where it was taking into consideration the additional study aids available. Louie and also wrote... When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their rights to do so. I just hope they don't call it the CCIE - call it something different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever). - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Louie, I understand your point about not a multitude of study materials, etc. I can't imagine studying for any Cisco exam without having good books and Cisco's website at my disposal. However, I don't see how having more study material makes the the actual material less complex or performing the hands-on of the lab less difficult. So I don't agree that having those materials available lowered the bar. To make an analogy to high-jumping, I don't believe having the materials lowered the bar, I think it's more akin to having a better coach to tell you how to jump properly to make it over the same bar. And, in my mind, there's nothing wrong with that, since having a better high-jumping coach doesn't cheapen the sport of high-jumping. Previously you said, A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). I don't believe this is a good conclusion. You statement makes the assumption that the number of people entering the Cisco field, or at least attempting the CCIE, has been constant. If anything, this is opposite of the truth. I would account for the backlog for the CCIE lab with 2 things: 1) Acknowledging that more and more people are coming into this field and attempting the CCIE. 2) Cisco has done nothing to increase their lab availability to accomodate the new demand. If anything, they're directly responsible for the backlog because now there are only TWO places in all of North America to take the lab. Didn't there used to be 3 places (CA, NC, and Canada)? I'm glad to hear you're going for your second CCIE cert. I sincerely wish you the best of luck! I admire the fact that you look for, and aren't afraid of a true challenge. Mike W. Louie Belt wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael L. Williams Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten their CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying something like that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen) to now say Sure.. make it as difficult as possible I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them said that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is too cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a resonable solution. Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1 day? Not to raise the bar of the level of the exam, but simply because they're testing centers can't handle the demand. Mashing into 1 day, IMHO, would be a very poor decision. Agreeing with Brad, do all of the CCIEs that are out there have a problem with leaving the bar where it was when you passed it? It only seems fair. Mike W. Bradley J. Wilson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their rights to do so. I just hope they don't call it the CCIE - call it something different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever). - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as diffi
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the effort. However, I will not give them the answers so that they can make the value of my cert less. Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued the certification. If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future recipients of the certification. I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My issue is simply one of The CCIE certification should not be devaulued - that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your mind. Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to disagree. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed before their attempts doesn't mean that the challenge needs to be altered or is less of a challenge for the individual. Again, I'm not against making certs tougher to achieve. But it sounds like there's a touch of bitterness that these study guides weren't around way back when...well, that's just the way life is. Making the CCIE tougher and still calling it the CCIE is like asking runners to run a 400m race, but then making them run 500m without telling them. ;-) Besides, the argument about the study materials is subjective. Was CCO around when you took the CCIE? Were other engineers around who were studying for it? Were used routers around for you to purchase, and perhaps set up for others to telnet into? I'm sure there were - if you (and/or others) didn't make use of them, then that's water under the source-route bridge. If you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the people who took the CCIE, passed or not, and then went out and wrote books on how to study for the CCIE. But I personally don't think these people are doing a disservice to the CCIE, nor are they devaluing it - and with a consistent 80% failure rate, they're certainly not making it less challenging. The study guides, etc. make it more of a group effort, and there's nothing wrong with that - not against the rules, not against the NDA, and our society wins because we're able to learn from (and teach to) one another, thereby filling the desperate need we have today for knowledgeable network engineers. Don't punish those of us who have not yet earned our CCIE status for using the resources which are available to us - or for having the foresight to create and share new resources. It really sounds like your argument is that it should be more of a dog-eat-dog world than a world where we're allowed to cooperate and share knowledge. Am I wrong? If so, why? - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 8:56 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I willing to have the tougher recerts and the tougher challenge with my 2nd CCIE cert. The bar has been lowered due to the deluge of study materials that are now present to assist you. I'm for putting the bar back to where it was taking into consideration the additional study aids available. Louie and also wrote... When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Absolutely correct here.. Brian Sonic Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Belt, Louie wrote: I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day lab - and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials available to help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken some of the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they keep it a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert. I also told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who succeed. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6946t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here... During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could confirm this rumor) can you imagine how much easier the lab would have been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things like bad time management poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever been. Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o) Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael L. Williams Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten their CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying something like that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen) to now say Sure.. make it as difficult as possible I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them said that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is too cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a resonable solution. Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1 day? Not to raise the bar of the level of the exam, but simply because they're testing centers can't handle the demand. Mashing into 1 day, IMHO, would be a very poor decision. Agreeing with Brad, do all of the CCIEs that are out there have a problem with leaving the bar where it was when you passed it? It only seems fair. Mike W. Bradley J. Wilson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their rights to do so. I just hope they don't call it the CCIE - call it something different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever). - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE. The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly. My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests tougher as well. I'm up to the challenge - are you? Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bradley J. Wilson Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Forgive my cynicism, but
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I agree there is no way to talk apples to apples - too many things have changed - but don't forget you no longer have to deal with LAT, X.25, CLNS, DEC, Banyan Vines, Appollo, Appletalk or ATM Lane. (Voice was already on the lab prior to these items being removed.) My concern is with the material that is not focused on teaching you networking (I have no problem with that), but on the material the simply teaches you how to pass the test (kind of like all of the Microsoft braindump material available - desinged only to help you pass the test). I see too much material as of late that is way too focused on passing the lab, not on learning networking. Louie -Original Message- From: Circusnuts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:01 PM To: Louie Belt; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here... During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could confirm this rumor) can you imagine how much easier the lab would have been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things like bad time management poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever been. Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o) Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael L. Williams Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten their CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying something like that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen) to now say Sure.. make it as difficult as possible I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them said that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is too cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a resonable solution. Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1 day? Not to raise the bar of the level of the exam, but simply because they're testing centers can't handle the demand. Mashing into 1 day, IMHO, would be a very poor decision. Agreeing with Brad, do all of the CCIEs that are out there have a problem with leaving the bar where it was when you passed it? It only seems fair. Mike W. Bradley J. Wilson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me? If Cisco wants to make the test tougher, they're well within their rights to do so. I just hope they don't call it the CCIE - call it something different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever). - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher. A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written). Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert. If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt. As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
As far as this thread goes Ill put in my two cents worth. Im just starting to study specifically for the written right now having just gotten my CCNP so I am in with those studying for the lab now (or real soon). Personally I think Cisco could go right ahead and make the lab as hard as they want. In all honesty I never see the lab being as hard as the orals a 'pure science' graduate student must take. It is only, and will probably ever only be a technical exam and will never even come close to the difficulty of a theoretical examination where new ideas must digested and expounded upon. Everyone has always known what to study, routing and switching on cisco hardware/software, these are not massively huge topics as a fairly comprehensive library would only fill a couple bookshelves. In fact I wouldnt mind if the test was a single question 'Redesign the overall topology of the Internet with regards to emerging traffic patterns expounding upon different paradigms of routing. Give specific configuration examples at all levels of the network using any given piece of Cisco equipment.' The current lab is not that hard and will never be that hard, but if it was I would not be disappointed, I would personally like such a challenge. CCIE is not the be all and end all of knowledge; it is just a verification of technical skills on a small selection of platforms. If it was made more difficult I would not begrudge anyone else who achieved the certification before it was made harder, I am comfortable with my skills and abilities and really feel no need to use a paper certification as a crutch for the future. Studying for the written and lab though does help me to focus and explore routing so I continue to do it. In conclusion, it should be as hard or as easy as Cisco wants it to be, I am confident that I will still pass no matter what when I take the lab a year from now. Ben, CCNP --- Circusnuts wrote: Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here... During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could confirm this rumor) can you imagine how much easier the lab would have been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things like bad time management poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever been. Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o) Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael L. Williams Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten their CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying something like that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen) to now say Sure.. make it as difficult as possible I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them said that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is too cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a resonable solution. Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1 day? Not to raise the bar of the level of the exam, but simply because they're testing centers can't handle the demand. Mashing into 1 day, IMHO, would be a very poor decision. Agreeing with Brad, do all of the CCIEs that are out there have a problem with leaving the bar where it was when you passed it? It only seems fair. Mike W. Bradley J. Wilson wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the top of Everest now t
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
In my opinion, CCIE's are definitely needed for the internet. What I mean by that is cisco like all others needs people out there to setup and manage networks. Making the exam harder and harder may make a good CCIE candidates, however the markets usually will not wait to get the all-rounder CCxx from Cisco. Because Ms.Juniper and Mrs.Foundry are all pushing for people to be good at making and managing networks. The more reccomenders or users the better sales. When you have more CCIE's and CCNP's and of course CCNA's the more reccommenders for Cisco products. Same is the case with all products. And as long as Cisco can back the recomender with the quality products, there is a good future for CCIE's etc. Few years ago it was Novxx and Microxx certification was the way to go, how ever Novxx could not back the reccommender with quality and so may be doing the last dance now. Microxx just understood the idea but patches for greed is yet to be invented. Judge Jacksxx is still working on it. CCIE is only another level of knowledge. It probably will be seen different if the standard is to have Phd's in networking. So work hard in knowing more. Explore the unknown, expand the known. That is the only way you will be the best in what you do. CCIE is the best now, however what % of every CCIE does the world need. Should they all specialize? By the way, all the above statements are only opinions and should not be used directly or indirectly for any decision making. No Data wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... As far as this thread goes Ill put in my two cents worth. Im just starting to study specifically for the written right now having just gotten my CCNP so I am in with those studying for the lab now (or real soon). Personally I think Cisco could go right ahead and make the lab as hard as they want. In all honesty I never see the lab being as hard as the orals a 'pure science' graduate student must take. It is only, and will probably ever only be a technical exam and will never even come close to the difficulty of a theoretical examination where new ideas must digested and expounded upon. Everyone has always known what to study, routing and switching on cisco hardware/software, these are not massively huge topics as a fairly comprehensive library would only fill a couple bookshelves. In fact I wouldnt mind if the test was a single question 'Redesign the overall topology of the Internet with regards to emerging traffic patterns expounding upon different paradigms of routing. Give specific configuration examples at all levels of the network using any given piece of Cisco equipment.' The current lab is not that hard and will never be that hard, but if it was I would not be disappointed, I would personally like such a challenge. CCIE is not the be all and end all of knowledge; it is just a verification of technical skills on a small selection of platforms. If it was made more difficult I would not begrudge anyone else who achieved the certification before it was made harder, I am comfortable with my skills and abilities and really feel no need to use a paper certification as a crutch for the future. Studying for the written and lab though does help me to focus and explore routing so I continue to do it. In conclusion, it should be as hard or as easy as Cisco wants it to be, I am confident that I will still pass no matter what when I take the lab a year from now. Ben, CCNP --- Circusnuts wrote: Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here... During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could confirm this rumor) can you imagine how much easier the lab would have been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things like bad time management poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever been. Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o) Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL P
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
This message isn't a reply to anyone in specific. Something Circusnuts said kinda sparked some questions/thoughts Two things, IMHO, that no amount of book reading or practice in a lab can give: The ability to be a quick thinker and good troubleshooter. I know there are writings and courses on troubleshooting, I used to teach one, however, I believe that true troubleshooting skills, that separate the good CCNP/CCIE from the paper CCNP/CCIE, is a natural thing that a person either has or doesn't have. Kinda like the ability to play music by ear. Either you can do it or your can't. I learned that I had good troubleshooting skills when could (successfully) debug assembly language code that I'd written while teaching myself at the age of 12 using the trusty Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide. =)Some people can see and read about common problems and learn their solutions, but it's the true troubleshooters that can use their tools and logic to zero in on problems quickly that really make the grade. Isn't the first half of the second day of the lab a kind of think-fast troubleshooting session? I think that is what the CCIE lab exam should (and I thought did) try to determine if someone has. Focusing on testing for true troubleshooting talent would definitely separate the good from paper candidates and would keep the CCIE from being devalued. Heh, I've been typing this response for about 30 minutes now (editing this, editing that, etc), but I think I've hit on what I truly would like to see between the CCIE written/lab. The written should be used to evaluate knowledge of protocols, routing, switching, commands, etc. the lab should be used to *focus* on whether or not someone can troubleshoot. I think with enough pratice, anyone can take a lab diagram and configure the equipment properly. But fixing something that is broken takes intuition, logic more talent so to speak, so why not focus the lab on troubleshooting many problems over a 2 day period... for that matter, give the candidate a fully configured network when they walk in and don't give ANY information about it... then tell them I can't ping from here to here and let them figure it out from the ground up.. This is all just random mumblings at this point... any comments are welcome. I apologize to the group for such a long, pointless post =) As a side note... I keep seeing people say things where they draw some conclusion about the lab (or what it's difficulty should be) based on some feelings about the written exam, etc. Aren't the written and the lab, really two mutually exclusive entities? I realize the written is needed to get to the lab, but from what I've been told about them both, the written still covers X.25, DECnet, Appletalk, etc. (i.e. OLD STUFF) and excludes topics like multicast and voice (NEW STUFF), while conversely the lab has dropped most of the stuff like X.25, IPX, AppleTalk, etc and includes stuff like multicast and voice. I don't know 100% about what's been dropped or added to the lab (or the written for that matter), but my point is simply that it seems the written isn't meant as a preparation for the lab because they test different things, so why base opinions about the difficulty of the lab on the difficulty (or ease) of the written or how many people have passed it? As someone else said, the extremely high failure rate of the CCIE lab should be an indication that it's plenty difficult no matter now many people pass the written. Thanks, Mike W. Circusnuts wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here... During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could confirm this rumor) can you imagine how much easier the lab would have been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things like bad time management poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever been. Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o) Phil - Original Message - From: Louie Belt To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was. Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert. Louie -
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6753t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6755t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Sure move it to one day --- Lets see we'll need to complete the network in 4 hours while knitting a blanket, learning Japanese and playing the piano with our toesthen the other 4 hours will be troubleshooting while blindfolded and wearing a nitrous oxide tank. Actually the later doesn't sound too bad :) I'd be very interested in how the format would change. MM -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 8:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6771t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I dunno...in real life it's quite the same. Working all day, suddenly the network goes down and you've got to get it up ASAP. It'll be harder, but probably more realistic. Also you probably have the whole network scheme fresh in your mind to make it easier to troubleshoot. Just my opinion (not 2 cents...I still keep all of those and am waiting for my checks.) Allen - Original Message - From: ; Michael (CAP, AFS, Contractor) To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 10:10 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Sure move it to one day --- Lets see we'll need to complete the network in 4 hours while knitting a blanket, learning Japanese and playing the piano with our toesthen the other 4 hours will be troubleshooting while blindfolded and wearing a nitrous oxide tank. Actually the later doesn't sound too bad :) I'd be very interested in how the format would change. MM -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 8:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6780t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
The survey was rather interesting. They also mentioned groupstudy and ccbootcamp! :) Personally, I think it should stay a 2-day lab and they should keep it just the way it is. Here's the questions they asked (compressed to save space): Survey Start 1. What do you value most about the CCIE process? 2. Is there something we could do to increase the program's value to you? If so, what? 3. Do you feel Cisco could improve the certification process? If yes, what? 4. What is the one thing that the CCIE program needs? 5. When you achieved your CCIE certification, you were awarded a plaque. Is this plaque important to you? 6. Would receiving only the paper certificate mean the same thing to you? Why or why not? 7. Would you support a decision to change the CCIE lab exam duration to one day if it was as difficult or more difficult than the present two day lab exam? Why or why not? 8. Which of these methods would have been acceptable to you as a candidate during your lab exam? Please place an 'X' in front of each method that you find believe would have been acceptable. __a. Proctor and equipment on site with you __b. Proctor located remotely, able to answer questions on-line/through web-cam __c. Several proctors located remotely, and any one of them could answer questions __d. Equipment located remotely If any of these possibilities would not have been acceptable to you, please explain why. 9. What is your impression of the current difficulty level for CCIE exams? Please place an 'X' in front of just one option. __a. Too difficult __b. Just right __c. Not difficult enough 10. What do you think of web sites such as groupstudy and ccbootcamp? 11. While you were preparing for your CCIE certification, what resource/method of study did you find most useful? 12. Have you ever used an on-line practice lab for your CCIE lab exam preparations? 13. Do you feel that there is enough CCIE level Cisco Press literature to prepare candidates for the CCIE exam and recertification exams? If no, what do you believe are the weak areas? 14. Do you currently participate in on-line technical communities? If yes, what motivates you to contribute your time and knowledge to these communities? -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Optimized Systems Inc 248-299-7789 cisco hardware: www.optsys.net CCIE Wanna BE wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6782t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
stick a broom up my ar*e, and I'll sweep the floor at the same time - Original Message - From: ; Michael (CAP, AFS, Contractor) To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 4:10 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] Sure move it to one day --- Lets see we'll need to complete the network in 4 hours while knitting a blanket, learning Japanese and playing the piano with our toesthen the other 4 hours will be troubleshooting while blindfolded and wearing a nitrous oxide tank. Actually the later doesn't sound too bad :) I'd be very interested in how the format would change. MM Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6783t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day lab - and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials available to help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken some of the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they keep it a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert. I also told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who succeed. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6801t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I firmly disagree that a one day combined lab would be a better method of evaluating ones knowledge of both design and troubleshooting. This is just another way of demanding one to be working in Internet time! From what I have read on this discussion group about the troubleshooting scenario is that it may not be on the same design configurations that you have completed the first day - and in fact may be a different set of configurations, which were TFTP loaded for your trouble shooting evaluation session. I am most likely one of the oldest CCIE study members monitoring this study group having just started to obtain certifications this last winter CCNA and CCNP a couple of months ago. This week I just passed the CCDA as a career specialty change move next CCDP and hopefully CCIE early next year. This is now necessary as my former telecommunications engineering management position was abolished and the company now wants and/or recognizes certifications as essential for advancement. I truly enjoy this new endeavor, however find that having to compress two days of activities, (While even making the tasks harder) with an expected shorter execution time would be a handicap for someone with a slower legacy processor (brain) and a lot more data stored in my memory to sort out (a life experience of 35 years of electronics and computer related activity). Originally even programmed in Octal on 8008 and built several Altairs with an 8080 CPU also met Bill and Paul in Albuquerque at what must have been one of the first computer fairs in 1975. I understand that time management is one of the most critical issues with the CCIE lab and think that trying to obtain the same level of candidate assessment in a one day event would not be as fair to someone like myself who is quite a bit older than an average CCIE candidate. I for one think a good nights sleep would help me to better tackle the difficult trouble shooting now required on the second day. I also think this will cheapen the presteege that a two day event engenders! What do others think? In any event I hope to be tackling this difficult and respected objective ... irrespective of how much time is allocated. Stay tuned.. Ray, CCNP, CCDA(Tuesday) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6810t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Forgive my cynicism, but any CCIE *would* want the lab to be tougher - they would know that any CCIEs that came along after they received their number increase the supply, thus lowering the cost of the good. ;-) I think Cisco ought to be asking companies who *hire* CCIEs what skills *they* would like to see in those who carry the CCIE certification - not the number-carrying CCIEs themselves. BJ P.S. And while I'm feeling cynical...can we please move the NT vs. UNIX nonsense to private emails or perhaps a different mail list? Thenks. - Original Message - From: Belt, Louie To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day lab - and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials available to help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken some of the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they keep it a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert. I also told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who succeed. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] So what is everyone's take? --- Belt, Louie wrote: That is simply one possible solution. They have sent a survey out to all of the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions. Louie -Original Message- From: CCIE Wanna BE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735] A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing on moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't going to be easier, it's going to be harder __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6819t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
ON age NO, I don't mind, unlike a woman I will reveal that I am 59 years young and still ride a motorcycle, fly my own airplane and water ski. Unfortunately, age is a factor in reflexes, and memory on hesitates to memorize long lists of trivia such as exact router capabilities, number of ports and which ones have a BRI with a U interface, S/T or both etc. Experience tells us better to know where to look it up, than to rely on rote memory etc. I have several other certifications such as in flying: flight instructor - CFII and Airline Transport Pilot ATP which if flying for a commercial airline retirement is mandatory at age 60. I don't see age as a hindrance when doing Network design or service, a young man may have quicker recall an ability to memorize data for sure - I obtained an FCC radio telephone license in 1960 and still have the formulas burnt in my mind X of L equal 2 pi FL etc. I am working for a large corporation which is now migrating our hub and spoke global network towards an IP MPLS mesh. Worked with cisco AGS routers from day one but no certifications were required. May be oldest student on list? Ray Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=6836t=6735 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
