Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
All of this talk about peaky filters for CW makes me want to find the B+ short, that I've been meaning to fix for about 10 years, in the receiver that got me going in this hobby, my original 1941 BC-342N. The crystal filter in it (and the 75A-1 and a dozen other receivers I've had) worked the same way. We've come full circle. --- On Wed, 10/27/10, Lu Romero lrom...@ij.net wrote: Another K3 feature that removes yet another external box in my system! I can finally get rid of my Autek QF1 when this is implemented! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Not everything old is bad, and not everything new is good. Or more hopefully, like the wedding tradition: ...something old, something new With the square space first set by the roofing filter and regular DSP for adjacent channel rejection, so it's NOT too wide, and the APF set LESS severely because it's not the main means of adjacent channel rejection, and it's only function to JUST peak up a weak signal enough to hear it out of the noise, we well may have something that fits the old wedding promise, ...something old, something new... 73, Guy. On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Wes Stewart n...@yahoo.com wrote: All of this talk about peaky filters for CW makes me want to find the B+ short, that I've been meaning to fix for about 10 years, in the receiver that got me going in this hobby, my original 1941 BC-342N. The crystal filter in it (and the 75A-1 and a dozen other receivers I've had) worked the same way. We've come full circle. --- On Wed, 10/27/10, Lu Romero lrom...@ij.net wrote: Another K3 feature that removes yet another external box in my system! I can finally get rid of my Autek QF1 when this is implemented! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Yes, Ron, I also prefer wide bandpass for CW most of the time. Still, it would be very nice indeed on those infrequent occasions to not have to do the RIT/SHIFT mambo when using a narrow filter... Actually, even with my typical wide open filter I think I'd use a live-signal pitch control quite often, not having to necessarilly bother with RIT or split VFOs. Seems like a natural that CW signal pitch would be a parameter that should have a dedicated control; but instead it takes several steps to accomplish. Sorry about derailing the APF topic; I think I lost track of how that was going to be implemented on the K3, but I'm looking forward to it in any case. 73, Drew AF2Z On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:53:08 -0700, Ron AC7AC wrote: He wants to vary the pitch without moving the signal in the bandpass, Don. That's a non-issue using a wide bandpass and one of the reasons I don't use narrow filters except on rare occasions when absolutely necessary. With a wide pass band I can just move the VFO (I'm *always* in SPLIT mode so TX stays on frequency.) Like Drew, I often shift the tone of the signal as I'm copying based on the nature of the noise, but it's not practical to do with a very sharp filter when straining to make out a weak signal. Losing the signal at all while juggling SHIFT means missing characters and hunting for it again with uncertain results. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Here is an operational scenario: You are CQing in the CQ WW CW contest. There are other loud stations CQing on either side of you. You have adjusted your SHIFT and WIDTH controls to eliminate the adjacent-channel interference while still, you hope, being wide enough to catch anyone calling you. A weak station replies to your CQ, but he's some distance off your frequency, although still within your bandpass. You'd like to be able to put an audio peaking filter on his signal without affecting the rest of your setup. You don't want to change your sidetone pitch; that's a separate question for a separate discussion. You don't want to use RIT or CWT, because that will bring one of the adjacent loud signals into your bandpass. Anyway, the desired signal is too weak to trigger CWT. Likewise, you don't want to shift your main DSP filter bandpass (the context); you've got this set up for where you are and you don't want to change it just for this one 30-second QSO. If you didn't have an APF, you might try narrowing the DSP filter bandwidth, but he's far enough off-frequency that doing so would run the risk of losing his signal, meaning you would have to fiddle with both SHIFT and WIDTH to home in on him, and that takes time to do, plus more time to restore them after the QSO. What you would really like to be able to do is to adjust an audio peak filter's frequency so that it is on top of the received weak signal, but without affecting the context (your DSP shift and width, your sidetone pitch, or your transmit frequency - these should all stay where they were). My suggestion would be to use one of the buttons (DUAL PB seems to be a possible candidate here) to turn the APF feature on, and while the feature is on, the SHIFT and WIDTH controls would adjust the APF frequency and width (or Q) and would have no effect on the context filtering. RIT and SPLIT would still work normally, it's just SHIFT and WIDTH that would have been subverted to do the APF adjustments while the APF is on. If you really did want to adjust the context filter width or shift, you would have to turn APF back off to do so. Once the QSO with the weak station had been successfully concluded, you could either turn APF off, or else leave it on with its width adjusted to include the entire context bandpass, and carry on CQing. My 2c worth. 73, Rich VE3KI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Rich, that was VERY well put. Even a dummy like me could understand that clearly. I think as much as your idea of the Q being on the Width control is a good one, I may actually rather put that Q setting in the Config menu. I don't see adjusting the Q as often as I would the Frequency of the APF as you described. One reason that the Shift knob is the best candidate is be because it seems that just like when you put the Dual PB filter on, the Shift is centered you are unable to adjust it, it will be the same with the APF on (or at least this is my understanding at this point). So it really wouldn't make any difference regardless. I much prefer to keep the Width control active, because I can see that I'll probably end up using that APF on almost all of the time. In that case I want to be able to still operate my Width at any given time without turning on and off my APF to do so. If it is the case where the Shift doesn't work when the APF is on, than it would be nice if in the future the Shift would retain it's setting until the operator turns off the APF and readjusts it. Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:54:34 -0400 From: ve3...@storm.ca To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 Here is an operational scenario: You are CQing in the CQ WW CW contest. There are other loud stations CQing on either side of you. You have adjusted your SHIFT and WIDTH controls to eliminate the adjacent-channel interference while still, you hope, being wide enough to catch anyone calling you. A weak station replies to your CQ, but he's some distance off your frequency, although still within your bandpass. You'd like to be able to put an audio peaking filter on his signal without affecting the rest of your setup. You don't want to change your sidetone pitch; that's a separate question for a separate discussion. You don't want to use RIT or CWT, because that will bring one of the adjacent loud signals into your bandpass. Anyway, the desired signal is too weak to trigger CWT. Likewise, you don't want to shift your main DSP filter bandpass (the context); you've got this set up for where you are and you don't want to change it just for this one 30-second QSO. If you didn't have an APF, you might try narrowing the DSP filter bandwidth, but he's far enough off-frequency that doing so would run the risk of losing his signal, meaning you would have to fiddle with both SHIFT and WIDTH to home in on him, and that takes time to do, plus more time to restore them after the QSO. What you would really like to be able to do is to adjust an audio peak filter's frequency so that it is on top of the received weak signal, but without affecting the context (your DSP shift and width, your sidetone pitch, or your transmit frequency - these should all stay where they were). My suggestion would be to use one of the buttons (DUAL PB seems to be a possible candidate here) to turn the APF feature on, and while the feature is on, the SHIFT and WIDTH controls would adjust the APF frequency and width (or Q) and would have no effect on the context filtering. RIT and SPLIT would still work normally, it's just SHIFT and WIDTH that would have been subverted to do the APF adjustments while the APF is on. If you really did want to adjust the context filter width or shift, you would have to turn APF back off to do so. Once the QSO with the weak station had been successfully concluded, you could either turn APF off, or else leave it on with its width adjusted to include the entire context bandpass, and carry on CQing. My 2c worth. 73, Rich VE3KI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
I know it's hard to please everyone in a situation like this but, as a blind CW op, I'm fervently voting for APF not to be put on a menu. This is an addition I eagerly anticipate and expect to use a lot. I know we blind ops are a distinct minority here but, currently, we don't have access to the menus. Putting it on a front panel control would put it in our hands. Thanks. lou WA3MIX - Original Message - From: The Smiths notforc...@hotmail.com To: ve3...@storm.ca; Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 Rich, that was VERY well put. Even a dummy like me could understand that clearly. I think as much as your idea of the Q being on the Width control is a good one, I may actually rather put that Q setting in the Config menu. I don't see adjusting the Q as often as I would the Frequency of the APF as you described. One reason that the Shift knob is the best candidate is be because it seems that just like when you put the Dual PB filter on, the Shift is centered you are unable to adjust it, it will be the same with the APF on (or at least this is my understanding at this point). So it really wouldn't make any difference regardless. I much prefer to keep the Width control active, because I can see that I'll probably end up using that APF on almost all of the time. In that case I want to be able to still operate my Width at any given time without turning on and off my APF to do so. If it is the case where the Shift doesn't work when the APF is on, than it would be nice if in the future the Shift would retain it's setting until the operator turns off the APF and readjusts it. Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:54:34 -0400 From: ve3...@storm.ca To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 Here is an operational scenario: You are CQing in the CQ WW CW contest. There are other loud stations CQing on either side of you. You have adjusted your SHIFT and WIDTH controls to eliminate the adjacent-channel interference while still, you hope, being wide enough to catch anyone calling you. A weak station replies to your CQ, but he's some distance off your frequency, although still within your bandpass. You'd like to be able to put an audio peaking filter on his signal without affecting the rest of your setup. You don't want to change your sidetone pitch; that's a separate question for a separate discussion. You don't want to use RIT or CWT, because that will bring one of the adjacent loud signals into your bandpass. Anyway, the desired signal is too weak to trigger CWT. Likewise, you don't want to shift your main DSP filter bandpass (the context); you've got this set up for where you are and you don't want to change it just for this one 30-second QSO. If you didn't have an APF, you might try narrowing the DSP filter bandwidth, but he's far enough off-frequency that doing so would run the risk of losing his signal, meaning you would have to fiddle with both SHIFT and WIDTH to home in on him, and that takes time to do, plus more time to restore them after the QSO. What you would really like to be able to do is to adjust an audio peak filter's frequency so that it is on top of the received weak signal, but without affecting the context (your DSP shift and width, your sidetone pitch, or your transmit frequency - these should all stay where they were). My suggestion would be to use one of the buttons (DUAL PB seems to be a possible candidate here) to turn the APF feature on, and while the feature is on, the SHIFT and WIDTH controls would adjust the APF frequency and width (or Q) and would have no effect on the context filtering. RIT and SPLIT would still work normally, it's just SHIFT and WIDTH that would have been subverted to do the APF adjustments while the APF is on. If you really did want to adjust the context filter width or shift, you would have to turn APF back off to do so. Once the QSO with the weak station had been successfully concluded, you could either turn APF off, or else leave it on with its width adjusted to include the entire context bandpass, and carry on CQing. My 2c worth. 73, Rich VE3KI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Another K3 feature that removes yet another external box in
my system! I can finally get rid of my Autek QF1 when this
is implemented!
I really like this scenario from a control layout logic
standpoint. Great idea, Rich!
One thing, tho, in addition to the panel buttons, there has
to be a command in the command set to reset the APF back
to where it was before, hopefully from the git-go. One of
the most confounding things about using my old TS850 with
N1MMLogger was I had to physically punch the RIT button off
and remember to center the knob (it had no center detent
either!). Loved the radio, hated that feature!
Its oh so much easier to include {CLEARRIT} in the TU
message to reset the RIT after a QSO! So I would ask that a
software command to clear the APF also be included with this
feature so that N1MM developer Jedi K3CT can create a
{CLEARAPF} command for the feature (Or possibly anybody
could create one with a CATHEX macro embedded in the TU
message).
I look forward to this feature. I will be among FT1000'ds
this weekend and will explore the APF feature Friday morning
to see how it works (if I have time off during contest
setup). I have never used a modern Yaesu rig in CW, so
there is always a first time!
If its anything like my Autek QF1, I will like it!
See all of you in the pileups (from NQ4I)!
-lu-w4lt-
--
Message: 32
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:54:34 -0400
From: Richard Ferch ve3...@storm.ca
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: 4cc8918a.7060...@storm.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Here is an operational scenario:
You are CQing in the CQ WW CW contest. There are other loud
stations
CQing on either side of you. You have adjusted your SHIFT
and WIDTH
controls to eliminate the adjacent-channel interference
while still, you
hope, being wide enough to catch anyone calling you.
A weak station replies to your CQ, but he's some distance
off your
frequency, although still within your bandpass. You'd like
to be able to
put an audio peaking filter on his signal without affecting
the rest of
your setup.
You don't want to change your sidetone pitch; that's a
separate question
for a separate discussion. You don't want to use RIT or CWT,
because
that will bring one of the adjacent loud signals into your
bandpass.
Anyway, the desired signal is too weak to trigger CWT.
Likewise, you
don't want to shift your main DSP filter bandpass (the
context);
you've got this set up for where you are and you don't want
to change it
just for this one 30-second QSO. If you didn't have an APF,
you might
try narrowing the DSP filter bandwidth, but he's far enough
off-frequency that doing so would run the risk of losing his
signal,
meaning you would have to fiddle with both SHIFT and WIDTH
to home in on
him, and that takes time to do, plus more time to restore
them after the
QSO.
What you would really like to be able to do is to adjust an
audio peak
filter's frequency so that it is on top of the received weak
signal, but
without affecting the context (your DSP shift and width,
your sidetone
pitch, or your transmit frequency - these should all stay
where they were).
My suggestion would be to use one of the buttons (DUAL PB
seems to be a
possible candidate here) to turn the APF feature on, and
while the
feature is on, the SHIFT and WIDTH controls would adjust the
APF
frequency and width (or Q) and would have no effect on the
context
filtering. RIT and SPLIT would still work normally, it's
just SHIFT and
WIDTH that would have been subverted to do the APF
adjustments while the
APF is on. If you really did want to adjust the context
filter width or
shift, you would have to turn APF back off to do so. Once
the QSO with
the weak station had been successfully concluded, you could
either turn
APF off, or else leave it on with its width adjusted to
include the
entire context bandpass, and carry on CQing.
My 2c worth.
73,
Rich VE3KI
__
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Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
The one thing I miss is the APF in my FT-990 and FT-1000D. (:-) 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP elecraftcov...@rfwave.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
This is a really good thread and I'm enjoying reading the theory! I'm always being called off frequency during contests so SHIFT would be the obvious choice! Being an ex FT2000 owner I used the contour settings and it was bril. Ken..G0ORH CW4EVER Sent from my iPhone On 26 Oct 2010, at 03:12, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: For the same reason that they want to use SHIFT: because sometimes stations call you off-frequency. Wayne On Oct 25, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: Wayne, Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me. Wes --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: Wes, The TX and VFO frequencies won't behave any differently with APF turned on, if that's what you're asking. They'll still be corrected for your sidetone pitch, as always. APF will behave like a tunable narrow filter superimposed on the normal passband. Its initial frequency would match the sidetone pitch, but you'll be able to move it around using the shift control. We're still playing with it. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Paul, I would be very happy to just have a live PITCH control, as has been requested a number of times. By live I mean being able to hear the received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their location in the passband. That would be much better than having to first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below. As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away every time I moved the AF Gain control. The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live pitch control that I really want. 73, Drew AF2Z On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:12:51 -0400, Paul, W9AC wrote: Here's an example of using APF in conjunction with RIT. I normally leave my CW offset at 650 Hz. Some of my CW operating is very weak signal DX on the low bands. When copying extremely weak DX in the midst of static crashes, I need to temporarily shift pitch to less than 400 Hz. Some ops, including W4ZV, have noted that weak CW copy can improve when low pitch is used. I also don't want to tamper with my normal CW offset if I don't need to. By engaging in RIT, I would like to temporally dip the incoming pitch, leave my CW offset alone where I want it 95% of the time, and then adjust the frequency of the APF to match/peak the incoming pitch selected by RIT. If I want to experiment with different pitch settings based on band conditions, I also want the ability for the APF peak to track the pitch I've selected on RIT. That requires a tunable APF. This is precisely what the FT-1000/D gave its users. Of course, the greater the departure of the RIT pitch from the offset may require a wider DSP filter setting and/or roofing filter. But under these weak band conditions, wide DSP and roofing filters are just fine when band activity and adjacent interference is low or moderate. When I'm working early morning grayline DX on 80m or 40m, I rarely encounter strong adjacent stations since conditions are long and stateside is not heard much of the time. Because of this, my overall Rx bandwidth is generally set to 2.8 kHz or greater. Even when weak DX is running split and listening up 2 kHz, there's ample separation to allow a filter settings wide enough to depart a few hundred Hz from the CW offset. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Drew, ?HUH? The pitch function that you say you want - change the pitch of a received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone, not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range). Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals being received. Can you be more specific about what you want. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote: Paul, I would be very happy to just have a live PITCH control, as has been requested a number of times. By live I mean being able to hear the received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their location in the passband. That would be much better than having to first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below. As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away every time I moved the AF Gain control. The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live pitch control that I really want. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
He wants to vary the pitch without moving the signal in the bandpass, Don. That's a non-issue using a wide bandpass and one of the reasons I don't use narrow filters except on rare occasions when absolutely necessary. With a wide pass band I can just move the VFO (I'm *always* in SPLIT mode so TX stays on frequency.) Like Drew, I often shift the tone of the signal as I'm copying based on the nature of the noise, but it's not practical to do with a very sharp filter when straining to make out a weak signal. Losing the signal at all while juggling SHIFT means missing characters and hunting for it again with uncertain results. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- Drew, ?HUH? The pitch function that you say you want - change the pitch of a received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone, not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range). Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals being received. Can you be more specific about what you want. 73, Don W3FPR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wes Stewart wrote: Wayne, Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me. Wes Wes, When I used the FT1000D APF on extremely weak lowband signals, I didn't want to touch the tuning knob, for fear of losing the station. Once I heard a trace of a signal, I'd engage the APF and vary to pitch to bring the signal out of the noise as best I could. Barry W2UP -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5671688p5676492.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
I use the APF on my 1000D in the same fashion. 73 Gene K1NR K2 6kxx On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Barry w...@comcast.net wrote: Wes Stewart wrote: Wayne, Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me. Wes Wes, When I used the FT1000D APF on extremely weak lowband signals, I didn't want to touch the tuning knob, for fear of losing the station. Once I heard a trace of a signal, I'd engage the APF and vary to pitch to bring the signal out of the noise as best I could. Barry W2UP -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5671688p5676492.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider. http://www.nni.com/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that. Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: drew...@verizon.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Drew, ?HUH? The pitch function that you say you want - change the pitch of a received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone, not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range). Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals being received. Can you be more specific about what you want. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote: Paul, I would be very happy to just have a live PITCH control, as has been requested a number of times. By live I mean being able to hear the received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their location in the passband. That would be much better than having to first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below. As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away every time I moved the AF Gain control. The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live pitch control that I really want. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Sorry, but I did not miss his point. It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'. I can understand why some might want to make a change of pace during a long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected -- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650 Hz, but yours may be different. To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me. If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of signals on the band. I guess this is part of the reason we hear so many QSOs that are not zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote: Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that. Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: drew...@verizon.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Drew, ?HUH? The pitch function that you say you want - change the pitch of a received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone, not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range). Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals being received. Can you be more specific about what you want. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote: Paul, I would be very happy to just have a live PITCH control, as has been requested a number of times. By live I mean being able to hear the received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their location in the passband. That would be much better than having to first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below. As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away every time I moved the AF Gain control. The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live pitch control that I really want. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
On Oct 26, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. Don, the difference on usability could perhaps boil down to this: In one case you are trying to peak a signal with a fixed pitched inside noise. There is only a single variable -- the pitch does not change, only the SNR changes as you twiddle a knob. In the second case (moving the VFO knob), you are changing both the pitch and at the same time trying to optimize SNR. Your ear-brain system has to deal with two variables. It might be easier to peak a signal using the former technique (at least I prefer it). This is true even when you are trying to peak a signal in a spectrum display (i.e., when you try to peak a signal visually instead of aurally). With that being said... after successfully peaking the signal, a single button press to move both the tone and the filter to the preferred pitch could be be ideal for me. (My Yaesu does not allow that after peaking a signal.) Programmatically moving the result to the preferred pitch is easy to do too, since the center of the filter peak is obviously known to the software. 73 Chen, W7AY __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Exactly Don, my point exactly, You DID miss the point. You DON'T understand why someone would want to do it. That's why you can't understand why he's asking for what he's asking. We're not all built out of stone. We don't all want to listen or send our CW at the same pitch all the time. If find that in Noisy conditions I like to lower my side tone down to 380Hz, yet when I'm in a casual QSO I find that I receive better at about 450Hz. When I have 2 stations that are close to each other, and I need the notch to do something for me that it doesn't do as well when I have the pitch set to a low freq. I like to have my pitch set up around 650Hz. It just depends on the conditions, the noise level, the stations that are in the pass band, and how I use the tools that the K3 has to deal with them. IE DSP, NR, NB, RF GAIN, Notch, Soon to be APF, REV CW mode, etc. It's more than just my comfort zone when it comes to the IF pass band, or centering someone in it. We don't all use our radios the same, as I'm sure you already know. For this reason, I DO understand exactly why this person would want to be able to shift his IF WHILE in a QSO, WITHOUT having to interrupt it with the side tone pitch freq. as he's doing so. I've had this happen to me on more than one occasion. As for the Zero Beating, oh boy are you right. People out there have no idea that their side tone has anything to do with their IF Center. They all expect that you have your filter open up to 1KHz when they answer you... I can't tell you how many times people will answer me as much as 100Hz off of my IF center. But they can't all afford a K3 I guess. The new rigs these days don't all tell you when you're in the IF center. The ones that do pretty much have a little orange light that comes on, and most of the people that use these radios don't even understand why that's there. Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:07:46 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: notforc...@hotmail.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Sorry, but I did not miss his point. It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'. I can understand why some might want to make a change of pace during a long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected -- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650 Hz, but yours may be different. To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me. If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of signals on the band. I guess this is part of the reason we hear so many QSOs that are not zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote: Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that. Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: drew...@verizon.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Drew, ?HUH? The pitch function that you say you want - change the pitch of a received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone, not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range). Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the sidetone you listen to during
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
I've suggested to Wayne a few times that we should have a SPOT button that works for the Receive ONLY. IE. when you have the RIT button on, and you hit SPOT it moves the Receive RIT control to center the IF pass band. Just like it does with the main VFO now. This would allow someone to SEND a CQ, have someone answer you off your IF Center, and then auto SPOT them in without having to move the RIT knob. This would allow you to keep put with your transmitter location and then QUICKLY turn that WIDTH knob down to 50 Hz KNOWING with confidence that you're not going to remove them from your receivers IF Pass band. This wouldn't change much about the K3 at all, it would only ADD to the features it has now. I'm not sure why anyone would want to SPOT their rig after someone has answered THEIR CQ off freq. It would just cause the both of you to either loose contact (depending how far off you were) or for the two people to be chasing each other around in circles as each one keeps tuning the other. Of course, when the RIT button is NOT on, the spot would work EXACTLY as it does now. Makes perfect sense to me. For those that wonder what happens when the XIT button is pushed, well, it just acts like it does now, the spot will move the XIT still. The ONLY change is when the RIT button alone is turned on.. then the SPOT works like an AUTO SPOTTING RIT control.. simple, yet VERY helpful for fast tuning and filtering. For those that don't like it, well I guess it can be an option you can turn on and off, just like balance contol etc.. in the Config MENU. RIT = SPOT or RIT = NOR... Not sure why it never made it into the list of things to be added to the rig. Seems like a pretty simple one Or did it? Wayne... From: c...@mac.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:33:41 -0700 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report On Oct 26, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. Don, the difference on usability could perhaps boil down to this: In one case you are trying to peak a signal with a fixed pitched inside noise. There is only a single variable -- the pitch does not change, only the SNR changes as you twiddle a knob. In the second case (moving the VFO knob), you are changing both the pitch and at the same time trying to optimize SNR. Your ear-brain system has to deal with two variables. It might be easier to peak a signal using the former technique (at least I prefer it). This is true even when you are trying to peak a signal in a spectrum display (i.e., when you try to peak a signal visually instead of aurally). With that being said... after successfully peaking the signal, a single button press to move both the tone and the filter to the preferred pitch could be be ideal for me. (My Yaesu does not allow that after peaking a signal.) Programmatically moving the result to the preferred pitch is easy to do too, since the center of the filter peak is obviously known to the software. 73 Chen, W7AY __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
On 10/26/2010 5:28 PM, The Smiths wrote: If find that in Noisy conditions I like to lower my side tone down to 380Hz, yet when I'm in a casual QSO I find that I receive better at about 450Hz. Yes. There's another psychoacoustic principle at work here, as well as an electronic one. 50 Hz is a larger percentage of 350 Hz than of 600 Hz. This gives the ear/brain more to work with in discriminating tones (and noise) that are closer in Hz, and it also makes the filter have less percentage bandwidth, which means that, all things being equal, it has better performance than a filter designed for the higher audio frequency. Ah, you say, these are digital filters, so it doesn't matter. Wrong -- digital filters are simply digital emulations of analog filters, and the math that makes analog filters do what they do has the same effect on the emulations! So there's no free lunch -- the digital filters are simply far more flexible, because you're building with bits, not Ls and Cs. :) And there's a third VERY important operational principle, which i think you and others have alluded to -- all of this must be done VERY QUICKLY -- the entire QSO may only last 15 seconds, and you can easily lose a CQ frequency while taking too long to dig a weak one out of the mud. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
I tend to agree. However, if people insist in doing this then as I said earlier if one is going to use a tunable audio filter adjusted to a frequency other than what the Pitch control is currently set for, then the pitch frequency should follow along so that it affects the transmitter as well. If this APF is implemented this way then it becomes the live pitch control being asked for. Any other implementation becomes an unintended RIT control. Wes --- On Tue, 10/26/10, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Sorry, but I did not miss his point. It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'. I can understand why some might want to make a change of pace during a long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected -- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650 Hz, but yours may be different. To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me. If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of signals on the band. I guess this is part of the reason we hear so many QSOs that are not zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote: Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that. Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: drew...@verizon.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Drew, ?HUH? The pitch function that you say you want - change the pitch of a received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone, not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range). Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals being received. Can you be more specific about what you want. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote: Paul, I would be very happy to just have a live PITCH control, as has been requested a number of times. By live I mean being able to hear the received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their location in the passband. That would be much better than having to first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below. As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away every time I moved the AF Gain control. The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live pitch control that I really want. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wow! I'm new to Elecraft (K3) and this list, and only enough time to read 25 or so posting each day, which leaves me in the dust. I'm too busy setting up my M/2 station for this season and getting used to the K3 which will be on one side for the first time. But, I gotta ask, what in the heck is APF? Clearly, I'm suffering from TMI (too much information). Being a cw contester for over 50 years, I guess I'm far less fussy on the details than most of you, which is probably why I've waited so long to add my first K3 and hopefully, the second very soon. John, N0IJ In a message dated 10/26/2010 19:28:32 Central Daylight Time, notforc...@hotmail.com writes: Exactly Don, my point exactly, You DID miss the point. You DON'T understand why someone would want to do it. That's why you can't understand why he's asking for what he's asking. We're not all built out of stone. We don't all want to listen or send our CW at the same pitch all the time. If find that in Noisy conditions I like to lower my side tone down to 380Hz, yet when I'm in a casual QSO I find that I receive better at about 450Hz. When I have 2 stations that are close to each other, and I need the notch to do something for me that it doesn't do as well when I have the pitch set to a low freq. I like to have my pitch set up around 650Hz. It just depends on the conditions, the noise level, the stations that are in the pass band, and how I use the tools that the K3 has to deal with them. IE DSP, NR, NB, RF GAIN, Notch, Soon to be APF, REV CW mode, etc. It's more than just my comfort zone when it comes to the IF pass band, or centering someone in it. We don't all use our radios the same, as I'm sure you already know. For this reason, I DO understand exactly why this person would want to be able to shift his IF WHILE in a QSO, WITHOUT having to interrupt it with the side tone pitch freq. as he's doing so. I've had this happen to me on more than one occasion. As for the Zero Beating, oh boy are you right. People out there have no idea that their side tone has anything to do with their IF Center. They all expect that you have your filter open up to 1KHz when they answer you... I can't tell you how many times people will answer me as much as 100Hz off of my IF center. But they can't all afford a K3 I guess. The new rigs these days don't all tell you when you're in the IF center. The ones that do pretty much have a little orange light that comes on, and most of the people that use these radios don't even understand why that's there. Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:07:46 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: notforc...@hotmail.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Sorry, but I did not miss his point. It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'. I can understand why some might want to make a change of pace during a long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected -- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650 Hz, but yours may be different. To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me. If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of signals on the band. I guess this is part of the reason we hear so many QSOs that are not zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote: Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wes, I don't think that you're getting it. The APF has nothing to do with TONE, it has to do with Peaking a freq. within the Band Pass filter area. You don't always want to change the tone just because you're moving the peak of a signal.. We're not talking about an IF center peak, we're talking about peaking a PART of the tone you're already listening to... There's no need to move the RIT or the Pitch with the APF at all.. You're just confusing things, and asking for changes that have nothing to do with an APF control knob. You have to separate the idea of freq., tone, and Peaking a portion of a signal... They're ALL different things here. My shift knob sets the center of my IF Pass band, my RIT knob moves people into the tone that my Pitch is set to (yes center of the IF usually), and APF should peak a portion of that IF area that I choose (like a manual Notch filter does, but reverse)... Not move it around. 3 different things here... Does it make more sense to you? Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:06:00 -0700 From: n...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report To: notforc...@hotmail.com; d...@w3fpr.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net I tend to agree. However, if people insist in doing this then as I said earlier if one is going to use a tunable audio filter adjusted to a frequency other than what the Pitch control is currently set for, then the pitch frequency should follow along so that it affects the transmitter as well. If this APF is implemented this way then it becomes the live pitch control being asked for. Any other implementation becomes an unintended RIT control. Wes --- On Tue, 10/26/10, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Sorry, but I did not miss his point. It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'. I can understand why some might want to make a change of pace during a long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected -- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650 Hz, but yours may be different. To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me. If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of signals on the band. I guess this is part of the reason we hear so many QSOs that are not zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote: Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that. Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400 From: w3...@embarqmail.com To: drew...@verizon.net CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Drew, ?HUH? The pitch function that you say you want - change the pitch of a received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone, not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range). Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals being received. Can you be more specific about what you want. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote: Paul, I would be very happy to just have a live PITCH control, as has been requested a number
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Guy: I am admittedly not a CW maven, I'm sort of a CW duffer, but your comment kind of baffles me: - At this point, I have no means of duplicating that in the K3. This is NOT the same as running narrower bandwidth. If I narrow bandwidth, then I don't hear the off-frequency callers, some of which are closer to the up or down stations than me. --- Dual PB (press and hold XFIL) allows one, as the manual says, to focus on a given signal that is matched to the sidetone frequency while hearing other callers above and below that frequency at reduced level (the context). Doesn't that do what the waveforms described on AB4OJ's website depict? It works that way for me. Or, I could patch my decades old Autek QF-1 into the audio path and peak audio tones to my hearts content. What else is required to accentuate a CW signal better than the tools we have on hand? A pitch control option like Icom Pro series rigs have (which I ALWAYS seem to forget to reset when I use it!)? If so then put in a way to restore it to normal like the CLR button for RIT/XIT. I'm all for options! -lu - w4lt- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:18:56 -0400 From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 To: ka...@arrl.net Cc: Bruce Beford bruce.bef...@myfairpoint.net, elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: aanlktikpcxwanxob=yp+7llvhb_nwvg-6bcjtl=av...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 No, actually not. The MP has something like APF, without calling it that. On CW if you turn on EDSP and set contour to 11 oclock and set NR to D and then set spot to 450, what you will get is a rounded AF response. This works well running (as opposed to search and pounce) in a contest, when you want to hear up and down a ways to catch the off-frequency callers (seemingly about 25% of world population, equals entirely common, typical tone-deaf to some degree), but don't want the entire bandwidth of noise roaring in your ear. At this point, I have no means of duplicating that in the K3. This is NOT the same as running narrower bandwidth. If I narrow bandwidth, then I don't hear the off-frequency callers, some of which are closer to the up or down stations than me. Throwing away up and down callers easily throws away 10% of run QSO's depending on how tight you have to squeeze. This is why I have the 250 roofing filter defined as 350 with the 400 defined as 450. I will run at 450 if I can get away with it. When it gets crowded, 350 running is really as tight as I want to go, just so I can hear off-frequency callers. I just need to hear them well enough to get them in with shift or RIT. 450 with APF is having your cake and eating it too. For that matter, if Wayne sees this, a fixed to center mild NR-generated APF that came out like the MP version but with an automatic band-pass following center might be a big hit. Try the above with an MP some time and see if you can mimmick that in K3 firmware. Once discovered, it was always a favorite. That's where I got stuck on 450 Hz as a center frequency. Just got used to it. I don't hate my MP. I just wish to H* that it had a K3 style uncrushable RF IF string. Yes, APF, and sooner than later, and with a scalar adjustment to how deep it goes and the width. 73, Guy No virus found in this outgoing message Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (6.1.0.25 - 6.14880). http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Don: Thanks for the tip on the NR and Dual Passband! Never thought about doing that! Just tried it. The only thing is that its not variable, which is sometimes useful in a contest pileup. And you can change the pitch, but, like my previous post about Icom's pitch, you have to remember to set it back to normal as there is no CLR button. But it does what I think APF should do, which is peak a certain tone in the context of other signals. Maybe I can finally pack up the ancient QF-1 and take it to the next Hamfest! -lu- w4lt- Message: 17 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:14:45 -0400 From: Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 To: Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: 4cc485a5.4040...@embarqmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I have never used a receiver with a button labeled APF, but I have used my K2 with an audio filter. It seems to me the only other characteristic of APF is that the center frequency can be changed. On the K3, we have the Dual Passband that may work in a similar manner. Set the width to the lowest value 50 Hz and turn on Dual PB and you have a wide filter with a peak at your sidetone pitch. You can change the Pitch if you wish to peak a different audio frequency, but for the life of me, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to peak any pitch other than his preferred sidetone pitch. If you want a little more peaking, turn on NR and set it to an aggressive setting. The way NR works is that it builds a narrow filter around a signal that it thinks is a valid signal - so you have a filter at the audio pitch where you have set the VFO. Yes, the K3 is different than those receiver that have APF, but in my opinion, it accomplishes the same thing, but differently. 73, Don W3FPR No virus found in this outgoing message Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (6.1.0.25 - 6.14880). http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Dual PB (press and hold XFIL) allows one, as the manual says, to focus on a given signal that is matched to the sidetone frequency while hearing other callers above and below that frequency at reduced level (the context). Doesn't that do what the waveforms described on AB4OJ's website depict? Icom's use of APF is different than that used in the FT-1000/D. Icom more closely emulates the Dual PB feature in the K3 but without the context feature. What's missing is high Q of the centered frequency. The FT-1000/D's Q of the audio circuit varies with the tuning control, but it's generally greater than 10. When the Dual PB tuning is enabled on the K3, and with aggressive NR engaged, I don't hear what sounds like a high Q equivalent. The FT-1000/D's APF is more closely associated with a single-channel of a multi-band parametric equalizer where Q, amplitude, and frequency are all variable. In the FT-1000/D, Q is mostly fixed, but amplitude and frequency are variable. Although the FT-1000/D adds amplification of the centered frequency -- and even allows changing the peaking frequency, I think the most desirable attribute of the circuit is the high Q ability. Fixed gain and variable peaking frequency may be a nice added feature to the K3 if APF is implemented, but these are secondary to achieving emulation of the high Q portion of the analog circuit in DSP. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
I found this it be of some assistance for either ssb or cw I will operate the notch in manual mode and by placing it on the high / low side of a signal it will help make the signal a bit more readable Bob K3DJC On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:09:51 -0400 Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net writes: Dual PB (press and hold XFIL) allows one, as the manual says, to focus on a given signal that is matched to the sidetone frequency while hearing other callers above and below that frequency at reduced level (the context). Doesn't that do what the waveforms described on AB4OJ's website Mortgage Rates Hit 3.25% If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cc5b75dbf26090159m03vuc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Paul: Do the 1000MP's have this feature as you describe it, or only the 1000D models? I will be around some MP's this weekend, so before the battle begins, I will try it and see how this feature works so I can get an understanding of it in person. I have experience with K3, Kenwood and Icom in CW mode, but zero experience piloting a 1000 series Yaesu in CW. Did like the shuttle knob around the main VFO on the 1000MP, reminds me of using videotape machines... My mind adjusted to it instinctively. :) -lu-w4lt- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:09:51 -0400 From: Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: 32e1515ef267466faf1d130184387...@dbtoa000 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Dual PB (press and hold XFIL) allows one, as the manual says, to focus on a given signal that is matched to the sidetone frequency while hearing other callers above and below that frequency at reduced level (the context). Doesn't that do what the waveforms described on AB4OJ's website depict? Icom's use of APF is different than that used in the FT-1000/D. Icom more closely emulates the Dual PB feature in the K3 but without the context feature. What's missing is high Q of the centered frequency. The FT-1000/D's Q of the audio circuit varies with the tuning control, but it's generally greater than 10. When the Dual PB tuning is enabled on the K3, and with aggressive NR engaged, I don't hear what sounds like a high Q equivalent. The FT-1000/D's APF is more closely associated with a single-channel of a multi-band parametric equalizer where Q, amplitude, and frequency are all variable. In the FT-1000/D, Q is mostly fixed, but amplitude and frequency are variable. Although the FT-1000/D adds amplification of the centered frequency -- and even allows changing the peaking frequency, I think the most desirable attribute of the circuit is the high Q ability. Fixed gain and variable peaking frequency may be a nice added feature to the K3 if APF is implemented, but these are secondary to achieving emulation of the high Q portion of the analog circuit in DSP. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Great! Thanks Wayne. 73 Stephen G4SJP On 25/10/2010 19:39, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: We might have a field-test revision of K3 code that includes APF sometime this week. In this test version, APF is turned on by rotating the WIDTH control counterclockwise past the 50-Hz setting (BW 0.05) to the 30-Hz APF setting (APF 0.03). This eliminates the need for a menu entry or a new switch function. A new DSP graphic pattern shows that APF is in effect. SHIFT can be used, with either 10- or 50-Hz steps. The APF filter is an IIR (infinite impulse response) DSP filter that accurately emulates the equivalent analog circuitry. There's a slight ring to the filter, as expected. Gain is also increased when APF is turned on, compensating for the loss of overall signal+noise that occurs at this very narrow bandwidth. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
I've used both the APF filter in the FT-1000 and an external audio filter (Timewave DSP-599zx), but never found them useful for CW. The filter in my head always seems better at picking out the desired signal than the audio filter, so the audio filter just doesn't help. Others my find differently, of course, though the filter in my head probably isn't an exceptionally good one. There are some very good cw contest operators who do nearly all their operating using the SSB filter. Scott K9MA Scott Ellington Madison, Wisconsin USA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Not ever having a radio with APF, I've had this nagging question since this thread began. Does the Pitch track the center frequency of the BPF? Wes --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com Subject: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report To: Roy Morris w4...@carolina.rr.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 12:39 PM We might have a field-test revision of K3 code that includes APF sometime this week. In this test version, APF is turned on by rotating the WIDTH control counterclockwise past the 50-Hz setting (BW 0.05) to the 30-Hz APF setting (APF 0.03). This eliminates the need for a menu entry or a new switch function. A new DSP graphic pattern shows that APF is in effect. SHIFT can be used, with either 10- or 50-Hz steps. The APF filter is an IIR (infinite impulse response) DSP filter that accurately emulates the equivalent analog circuitry. There's a slight ring to the filter, as expected. Gain is also increased when APF is turned on, compensating for the loss of overall signal+noise that occurs at this very narrow bandwidth. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
It will in the K3 case. If you have SHIFT centered, the APF filter will be at your sidetone pitch. So in most cases you won't even need to do a SHIFT; just turn APF on using a full counterclockwise setting of the WIDTH control. SHIFT can be used if you want to tune in a station that is slightly off your sidetone pitch. Wayne On Oct 25, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: Not ever having a radio with APF, I've had this nagging question since this thread began. Does the Pitch track the center frequency of the BPF? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
The benefit of APF is not selectivity to seperate signals at all. its the boost of a signal in the noise level that brings it up out of the noise by peaking a particular audio freq. It is used to make copy of a signal that is in the noise possible that is otherwise not possible to copy. Also not all FT-1000D were created equal, early models were great, middle and later models were not effective at all, so its all on which one you tried at the time. Many operators converted the newer models to the old circuit by changing a few component values. Merv K9FD I've used both the APF filter in the FT-1000 and an external audio filter (Timewave DSP-599zx), but never found them useful for CW. The filter in my head always seems better at picking out the desired signal than the audio filter, so the audio filter just doesn't help. Others my find differently, of course, though the filter in my head probably isn't an exceptionally good one. There are some very good cw contest operators who do nearly all their operating using the SSB filter. Scott K9MA Scott Ellington Madison, Wisconsin USA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Nice! / Jim SM2EKM -- On 2010-10-25 20:39, Wayne Burdick wrote: We might have a field-test revision of K3 code that includes APF sometime this week. In this test version, APF is turned on by rotating the WIDTH control counterclockwise past the 50-Hz setting (BW 0.05) to the 30-Hz APF setting (APF 0.03). This eliminates the need for a menu entry or a new switch function. A new DSP graphic pattern shows that APF is in effect. SHIFT can be used, with either 10- or 50-Hz steps. The APF filter is an IIR (infinite impulse response) DSP filter that accurately emulates the equivalent analog circuitry. There's a slight ring to the filter, as expected. Gain is also increased when APF is turned on, compensating for the loss of overall signal+noise that occurs at this very narrow bandwidth. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Not on the FT-1000D, the APF has an adjustable freq knob, I find that I have it set 99 percent of the time the same pitch as the side tone, so not sure that it needs to be adjustable. Seems if it tracked the side tone freq that may be sufficient. Problem is that APF should not be limited to use on extreme narrow filter widths, many times there is no need to narrow the filter width as there is no adjacent QRM on the weak signal. The background noise on wider widths is easier to copy through many times than the different pitch background noise on narrow width. Unless you have used it, it is hard to comprehend what it is perhaps, but as many have posted, when working properly it makes copy possible of signals in the noise that is not possible without. Merv K9FD Not ever having a radio with APF, I've had this nagging question since this thread began. Does the Pitch track the center frequency of the BPF? Wes --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdickn...@elecraft.com wrote: From: Wayne Burdickn...@elecraft.com Subject: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report To: Roy Morrisw4...@carolina.rr.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 12:39 PM We might have a field-test revision of K3 code that includes APF sometime this week. In this test version, APF is turned on by rotating the WIDTH control counterclockwise past the 50-Hz setting (BW 0.05) to the 30-Hz APF setting (APF 0.03). This eliminates the need for a menu entry or a new switch function. A new DSP graphic pattern shows that APF is in effect. SHIFT can be used, with either 10- or 50-Hz steps. The APF filter is an IIR (infinite impulse response) DSP filter that accurately emulates the equivalent analog circuitry. There's a slight ring to the filter, as expected. Gain is also increased when APF is turned on, compensating for the loss of overall signal+noise that occurs at this very narrow bandwidth. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wayne, 1) Outside the 30 Hz APF peak what is the background DSP bandwidth and can that be adjusted? 2) how does one prevent activation of a narrow CW filter (e.g., 200 Hz) and excessively narrow DSP filtering when activating APF? Remember, the desired behavior is primarily to peak the desired signal while reducing the background bandwidth is a secondary concern. 3) How does one move the APF peak (as in the case of the old FT-1000D where the peak was tunable over most of the audio range0? Rather that lose ability to specify basic DSP (and IF) bandwidth when activating APF, I would suggest overloading the notch control- particularly since auto notch (tap) does not function in CW - to activate APF. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 10/25/2010 2:39 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: We might have a field-test revision of K3 code that includes APF sometime this week. In this test version, APF is turned on by rotating the WIDTH control counterclockwise past the 50-Hz setting (BW 0.05) to the 30-Hz APF setting (APF 0.03). This eliminates the need for a menu entry or a new switch function. A new DSP graphic pattern shows that APF is in effect. SHIFT can be used, with either 10- or 50-Hz steps. The APF filter is an IIR (infinite impulse response) DSP filter that accurately emulates the equivalent analog circuitry. There's a slight ring to the filter, as expected. Gain is also increased when APF is turned on, compensating for the loss of overall signal+noise that occurs at this very narrow bandwidth. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Joe, We're still experimenting with both the UI and the underlying filter function. I jumped the gun a bit in my proposed use of the WIDTH control to activate APF, and we're looking at other ways to do that so that the width can still be set independently. One possibility is to overload the DUAL PB control (say, a long hold of DUAL PB turns on APF, or the DUAL PB control has three settings). When APF is selected, the SHIFT control could adjust the APF center frequency, leaving the rig's normal passband unshifted. More later-- Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
HI Wayne For additional commands, you can still use CAT commands and each user choose how he uses the macros functions and reallocates each button... At least, this way, you are not limited in the number of functions. Yes, probably the XFIL/Dual PB is a good candidate for APF. Now the logic is up to you ! 73, Laurent -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5671688p5672321.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
If you do it this way, how would you use it inside the 400 Hz roofing filter, where you wanted it to diminish somewhat toward the skirts of the roofer and then dive down. There would be no way of having this happen inside a given roofing filter other than the narrowest as the roofer is implied by the width setting. Would not be of any use at all on a running frequency. This only works as peak shaped audio to further narrow the very narrowest DSP selectivity. Personally I've never been disappointed by the 50 Hz, which is the cleanest narrow I've ever had in a RX. Not at all what I had in mind. With 400 Hz bandwidth and 500 Hz center, the passband INSIDE the roofer skirts is peaked at 500, loses about 10 db going down to 300 and up to 700, and at 300 and 700 does the normal roofer/DSP skirt sharp dive. This allows me to HEAR the off-freq caller, and either shift or RIT to center him, without the noise burden of a flat 400 Hz. Using the NR for this in a contest masks or loses really weak signals. Not yet discovered a setting that doesn't take away more than it gives. Never use NR on CW at NY4A on our K3's. Lose the whisper contacts just in the noise, any NR setting. Wouldn't even know they were there. Perhaps for this need a special NR setting that only shapes the audio without any cancellation at the noise level and several degrees of slope off? This is what I always meant by APF. Just my .02 73, Guy. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: We might have a field-test revision of K3 code that includes APF sometime this week. In this test version, APF is turned on by rotating the WIDTH control counterclockwise past the 50-Hz setting (BW 0.05) to the 30-Hz APF setting (APF 0.03). This eliminates the need for a menu entry or a new switch function. A new DSP graphic pattern shows that APF is in effect. SHIFT can be used, with either 10- or 50-Hz steps. The APF filter is an IIR (infinite impulse response) DSP filter that accurately emulates the equivalent analog circuitry. There's a slight ring to the filter, as expected. Gain is also increased when APF is turned on, compensating for the loss of overall signal+noise that occurs at this very narrow bandwidth. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wayne, I like the idea of engaging APF independent of DSP or roofing bandwidth. There are times on an open band where APF can be effective without the need to mitigate interference through the use of roofing filters, thereby minimizing through-loss. A long press of Dual PB or use of 'Notch' in CW as W4TV points out seem like reasonable methods to engage the APF feature. Paul, W9AC - Original Message - From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com To: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Joe, We're still experimenting with both the UI and the underlying filter function. I jumped the gun a bit in my proposed use of the WIDTH control to activate APF, and we're looking at other ways to do that so that the width can still be set independently. One possibility is to overload the DUAL PB control (say, a long hold of DUAL PB turns on APF, or the DUAL PB control has three settings). When APF is selected, the SHIFT control could adjust the APF center frequency, leaving the rig's normal passband unshifted. More later-- Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
On 10/25/2010 12:29 PM, Merv Schweigert wrote: but never found them useful for CW. The filter in my head always seems better at picking out the desired signal than the audio filter That's usually been my experience too, primarily because the skirts ring on QRN, and the narrower the filter, the closer those skirts get to the CW note. The closer the ringing is to the CW note, the harder it is for the ear/brain to separate them. This is pretty well known by scientists working in the psychoacoustic world. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Anyone that has ever used the FT-1000 or the the FT-2000 knows exactly what the APF (or Contour setting as they call it) can do. It's an AMAZING tool to have in your tool box. With the FT-2000 you could choose whether you were going to Peak or Dip at the Contour freq. Furthermore, You could keep your filters set to ANY width you wanted to, and simultaneously Dip or Peak within the Contour / APF area. If you need any ideas on how this function should work than just refer to an FT-2000 or perhaps even an FT-5000 rig. It's very plain simple and clear. Which button it's put on is pretty much a who cares, so long as it works. As for the NR, I use that ALL the time, and I find that in my QTH it's a MUST have. There's FAR too much noise where I live, and with a constant S3 to S5 noise floor on 30 meters I rely HEAVILY on the NR to help me make things work out. The NB works well for me too, but the NR is far more important. I can only wish that I were one of you guys that lives where you have a perfect S1 noise floor and don't need your NR to work. I've not once missed a weak signal using my NR by the way, because I know how to use it in conjunction with the RF gain and proper (for me) AGC settings. Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:01:14 -0400 From: olin...@bellsouth.net To: n...@elecraft.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; w4...@carolina.rr.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report If you do it this way, how would you use it inside the 400 Hz roofing filter, where you wanted it to diminish somewhat toward the skirts of the roofer and then dive down. There would be no way of having this happen inside a given roofing filter other than the narrowest as the roofer is implied by the width setting. Would not be of any use at all on a running frequency. This only works as peak shaped audio to further narrow the very narrowest DSP selectivity. Personally I've never been disappointed by the 50 Hz, which is the cleanest narrow I've ever had in a RX. Not at all what I had in mind. With 400 Hz bandwidth and 500 Hz center, the passband INSIDE the roofer skirts is peaked at 500, loses about 10 db going down to 300 and up to 700, and at 300 and 700 does the normal roofer/DSP skirt sharp dive. This allows me to HEAR the off-freq caller, and either shift or RIT to center him, without the noise burden of a flat 400 Hz. Using the NR for this in a contest masks or loses really weak signals. Not yet discovered a setting that doesn't take away more than it gives. Never use NR on CW at NY4A on our K3's. Lose the whisper contacts just in the noise, any NR setting. Wouldn't even know they were there. Perhaps for this need a special NR setting that only shapes the audio without any cancellation at the noise level and several degrees of slope off? This is what I always meant by APF. Just my .02 73, Guy. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: We might have a field-test revision of K3 code that includes APF sometime this week. In this test version, APF is turned on by rotating the WIDTH control counterclockwise past the 50-Hz setting (BW 0.05) to the 30-Hz APF setting (APF 0.03). This eliminates the need for a menu entry or a new switch function. A new DSP graphic pattern shows that APF is in effect. SHIFT can be used, with either 10- or 50-Hz steps. The APF filter is an IIR (infinite impulse response) DSP filter that accurately emulates the equivalent analog circuitry. There's a slight ring to the filter, as expected. Gain is also increased when APF is turned on, compensating for the loss of overall signal+noise that occurs at this very narrow bandwidth. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
By the way, the 50Hz filter on the K3 is really about 80 Hz wide, not 50... If you turn on the iir filter (in the config menu) THAN you can see it squeeze down to about 50 or 60Hz width. This could be why the K3 sounds so much cleaner at such narrow width settings than other rigs. I'm not really sure that it should say 50 Hz on the display unless the iir is turned on along with it. Just my opinion. Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:17:15 -0700 From: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 On 10/25/2010 12:29 PM, Merv Schweigert wrote: but never found them useful for CW. The filter in my head always seems better at picking out the desired signal than the audio filter That's usually been my experience too, primarily because the skirts ring on QRN, and the narrower the filter, the closer those skirts get to the CW note. The closer the ringing is to the CW note, the harder it is for the ear/brain to separate them. This is pretty well known by scientists working in the psychoacoustic world. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
When dealing with very weak signals in the absence of really strong QRM, I use the widest bandwidth possible for just that reason. At least 2.8 kHz is typical for me and I almost never drop below 1 kHz. The more pink or white-ish the noise, the easier it is to hear a very weak CW signal down in it. That's why I vastly prefer the notch filter to help my gray matter filter in case a really strong signal appears in the bandpass. On stronger signals mixed in a lot of heavy QRM I'll crank in the bandwidth so the desired signal is the only one I hear. Then I can pretend I'm listening to a code practice oscillator - it sure doesn't sound like a radio, Hi Now that Wayne's implementing APF I'm curious to see how it sounds. I'm prepared to be astonished if it sounds any different than a decent active audio filter with some gain at the center frequency. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- On 10/25/2010 12:29 PM, Merv Schweigert wrote: but never found them useful for CW. The filter in my head always seems better at picking out the desired signal than the audio filter That's usually been my experience too, primarily because the skirts ring on QRN, and the narrower the filter, the closer those skirts get to the CW note. The closer the ringing is to the CW note, the harder it is for the ear/brain to separate them. This is pretty well known by scientists working in the psychoacoustic world. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
When dealing with very weak signals in the absence of really strong QRM, I use the widest bandwidth possible for just that reason. At least 2.8 kHz is typical for me and I almost never drop below 1 kHz. The more pink or white-ish the noise, the easier it is to hear a very weak CW signal down in it. That's why I vastly prefer the notch filter to help my gray matter filter in case a really strong signal appears in the bandpass. On stronger signals mixed in a lot of heavy QRM I'll crank in the bandwidth so the desired signal is the only one I hear. Then I can pretend I'm listening to a code practice oscillator - it sure doesn't sound like a radio, Hi Now that Wayne's implementing APF I'm curious to see how it sounds. I'm prepared to be astonished if it sounds any different than a decent active audio filter with some gain at the center frequency. Ron AC7AC Hi Ron, A lot of my activity is on 1296MHz EME where the background noise is extremely consistant. I found the APF on the IC-7700 to be useless, but interestingly the audio peak function on my Alpha Delta VRC (Variable Response Console) consistantly pulls weak CW signals out that the narrow roofing and/or DSP filters do not. Visitors to my station have noticed the same effect- and have gone searching for a VRC for their EME station. Reports here on the reflector that it is possible for an APF to function very well are encouraging- so I too look forward to its implementation. Dale W4OP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
OK. Next question; can I assume then that the TX and frequency readout follow? --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: It will in the K3 case. If you have SHIFT centered, the APF filter will be at your sidetone pitch. So in most cases you won't even need to do a SHIFT; just turn APF on using a full counterclockwise setting of the WIDTH control. SHIFT can be used if you want to tune in a station that is slightly off your sidetone pitch. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
What does APX have to do with TX or the readout? This is a Receive feature whereby it PEAKS a particular freq. in CW mode. The Shift number should read out JUST as it does now.. It would only effect the position of the APF location as you move it. This is my understanding. Wayne, Although that sounds like a cleaver idea, sometimes you want to keep the shift off freq. from your center pitch, but still peak someone in. This can help reduce noise that is in your pitch Band pass, but alow you to de-tune the noise around it... This presents a problem for your idea. It means that there would have to be a separate knob for the Shift and the APF location. Or at least this is how it should be. Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:47:42 -0700 From: n...@yahoo.com To: n...@elecraft.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report OK. Next question; can I assume then that the TX and frequency readout follow? --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: It will in the K3 case. If you have SHIFT centered, the APF filter will be at your sidetone pitch. So in most cases you won't even need to do a SHIFT; just turn APF on using a full counterclockwise setting of the WIDTH control. SHIFT can be used if you want to tune in a station that is slightly off your sidetone pitch. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wes, The TX and VFO frequencies won't behave any differently with APF turned on, if that's what you're asking. They'll still be corrected for your sidetone pitch, as always. APF will behave like a tunable narrow filter superimposed on the normal passband. Its initial frequency would match the sidetone pitch, but you'll be able to move it around using the shift control. We're still playing with it. Wayne On Oct 25, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: OK. Next question; can I assume then that the TX and frequency readout follow? --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: It will in the K3 case. If you have SHIFT centered, the APF filter will be at your sidetone pitch. So in most cases you won't even need to do a SHIFT; just turn APF on using a full counterclockwise setting of the WIDTH control. SHIFT can be used if you want to tune in a station that is slightly off your sidetone pitch. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
I understand completely what a BPF filter does, tunable or otherwise. You forget that this is a transceiver, not a standalone receiver. If, as I believe Wayne indicated, the Pitch (NOT Shift) is going to follow the peak frequency of the filter (as it should IMHO) then the transmitter better follow along if you want to answer a guy on his RX frequency. If the transmitter is left behind, then if your nominal pitch is 500 Hz, then if you tune, for example, to a signal with a 700 Hz pitch, you're essentially operating split with a 200 Hz offset. The frequency readout indicates the zero beat frequency, as can be seen by switching modes from CW to SSB. The readout will be different between the two modes by the pitch frequency. If I'm off-base here and the APF can be tuned to other than the nominal pitch frequency (for reasons that totally escape me) then you will be operating split. Bad form these days. Wes --- On Mon, 10/25/10, The Smiths notforc...@hotmail.com wrote: What does APX have to do with TX or the readout? This is a Receive feature whereby it PEAKS a particular freq. in CW mode. The Shift number should read out JUST as it does now.. It would only effect the position of the APF location as you move it. This is my understanding. Wayne, Although that sounds like a cleaver idea, sometimes you want to keep the shift off freq. from your center pitch, but still peak someone in. This can help reduce noise that is in your pitch Band pass, but alow you to de-tune the noise around it... This presents a problem for your idea. It means that there would have to be a separate knob for the Shift and the APF location. Or at least this is how it should be. Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:47:42 -0700 From: n...@yahoo.com To: n...@elecraft.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report OK. Next question; can I assume then that the TX and frequency readout follow? --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: It will in the K3 case. If you have SHIFT centered, the APF filter will be at your sidetone pitch. So in most cases you won't even need to do a SHIFT; just turn APF on using a full counterclockwise setting of the WIDTH control. SHIFT can be used if you want to tune in a station that is slightly off your sidetone pitch. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wayne, Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me. Wes --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: Wes, The TX and VFO frequencies won't behave any differently with APF turned on, if that's what you're asking. They'll still be corrected for your sidetone pitch, as always. APF will behave like a tunable narrow filter superimposed on the normal passband. Its initial frequency would match the sidetone pitch, but you'll be able to move it around using the shift control. We're still playing with it. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wes, I agree with you - leave the pitch at the sidetone pitch and use the VFO to tune the desired station to that pitch is the best solution. However some operators do it differently. There are many adherents of RIT and XIT. I understand their use for stations that are 'running', but for normal QSOs it is not required on a transceiver that can shift transmit frequency easily with the VFO knob. Zero-beat the station to be in QSO with and take up less bandspace. If everyone operated like that, there should be no need to change the pitch of the peaking point - it would be whatever the sidetone pitch is set to. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/25/2010 9:38 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: I understand completely what a BPF filter does, tunable or otherwise. You forget that this is a transceiver, not a standalone receiver. If, as I believe Wayne indicated, the Pitch (NOT Shift) is going to follow the peak frequency of the filter (as it should IMHO) then the transmitter better follow along if you want to answer a guy on his RX frequency. If the transmitter is left behind, then if your nominal pitch is 500 Hz, then if you tune, for example, to a signal with a 700 Hz pitch, you're essentially operating split with a 200 Hz offset. The frequency readout indicates the zero beat frequency, as can be seen by switching modes from CW to SSB. The readout will be different between the two modes by the pitch frequency. If I'm off-base here and the APF can be tuned to other than the nominal pitch frequency (for reasons that totally escape me) then you will be operating split. Bad form these days. Wes __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
For the same reason that they want to use SHIFT: because sometimes stations call you off-frequency. Wayne On Oct 25, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: Wayne, Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me. Wes --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: Wes, The TX and VFO frequencies won't behave any differently with APF turned on, if that's what you're asking. They'll still be corrected for your sidetone pitch, as always. APF will behave like a tunable narrow filter superimposed on the normal passband. Its initial frequency would match the sidetone pitch, but you'll be able to move it around using the shift control. We're still playing with it. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Don, Finally someone who understands how transceivers work! I use XIT and RIT all of the time in lieu of the split function. But that's on purpose and I understand the ramifications. Thanks, Wes --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: From: Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report To: Wes Stewart n...@yahoo.com Cc: Wayne Berdock n...@elecraft.com, The Smiths notforc...@hotmail.com, Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 7:57 PM Wes, I agree with you - leave the pitch at the sidetone pitch and use the VFO to tune the desired station to that pitch is the best solution. However some operators do it differently. There are many adherents of RIT and XIT. I understand their use for stations that are 'running', but for normal QSOs it is not required on a transceiver that can shift transmit frequency easily with the VFO knob. Zero-beat the station to be in QSO with and take up less bandspace. If everyone operated like that, there should be no need to change the pitch of the peaking point - it would be whatever the sidetone pitch is set to. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/25/2010 9:38 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: I understand completely what a BPF filter does, tunable or otherwise. You forget that this is a transceiver, not a standalone receiver. If, as I believe Wayne indicated, the Pitch (NOT Shift) is going to follow the peak frequency of the filter (as it should IMHO) then the transmitter better follow along if you want to answer a guy on his RX frequency. If the transmitter is left behind, then if your nominal pitch is 500 Hz, then if you tune, for example, to a signal with a 700 Hz pitch, you're essentially operating split with a 200 Hz offset. The frequency readout indicates the zero beat frequency, as can be seen by switching modes from CW to SSB. The readout will be different between the two modes by the pitch frequency. If I'm off-base here and the APF can be tuned to other than the nominal pitch frequency (for reasons that totally escape me) then you will be operating split. Bad form these days. Wes __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
There's a button labeled RIT and an associated knob especially for that purpose. --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: For the same reason that they want to use SHIFT: because sometimes stations call you off-frequency. Wayne On Oct 25, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: Wayne, Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me. Wes __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wes, I think that you're missing the point of what the shift knob does.. Yes, you can use the RIT to tune someone in but the Shift shifts your IF without moving your Transmit or Receive VFO position. This isn't about a tone, this is about the IF passband. As for the need for separate IF shift and APF tuning, If I can answer for my self... I would want it to be separate to control noise, if it works anything like the Yaesu contour filter (when in peak mode) than it's very nice to be able to peak signals that aren't always exactly in the center of your IF passband. Not only does the Yaesu peak the center of the IF (pitch freq.) but it would also attenuate the noise floor around it. Therefore if I have noise in the center of the IF, and I want to shift away, I may still wish to move the peak to suppress the QRM along with it. Sometimes you just have to try something to understand it. Being able to take the dial and swing it around with the APF on and hear what peaks and what suppresses will let you determine how you want to separate the IF pass band from the APF. It's not unlike how the manual Notch filter works. As you swing it around you can hear how it suppresses some signals below or above your IF passband. Wayne, I would like to make my suggestion for where to place these controls. If it were up to me (with out giving it any more thought than I already have) I would like to see the switch to turn the APF on and off as a HOLD on the AFX button. If I'm not mistaken this button is un-used when in CW and SSB mode. Therefore if you hold the AFX button down in CW it could activate the effect of the APF... As for moving it's position, I was thinking that unless it's going to be used in SSB mode, you could place the centering position on the Comp/PWR knob. Put it in the place of COMP. Even if someone wanted to use it for SSB mode they probably already have their Compressor set up as they use it for their mic. I don't know that most people use their COMP control every time they get on SSB. I would think you set it up for that particular mic and leave it. This would make dual use of the Comp knob while still keeping the Width and Shift knobs operate as they already do. If i t's possible to change the color of the LED I would switch it to Orange or blink when in the APF mode as an indicator that it's not working the COMP. Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:17:16 -0700 From: n...@yahoo.com To: n...@elecraft.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report There's a button labeled RIT and an associated knob especially for that purpose. --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: For the same reason that they want to use SHIFT: because sometimes stations call you off-frequency. Wayne On Oct 25, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: Wayne, Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me. Wes __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
There's a button labeled RIT and an associated knob especially for that purpose. Wes, Here's an example of using APF in conjunction with RIT. I normally leave my CW offset at 650 Hz. Some of my CW operating is very weak signal DX on the low bands. When copying extremely weak DX in the midst of static crashes, I need to temporarily shift pitch to less than 400 Hz. Some ops, including W4ZV, have noted that weak CW copy can improve when low pitch is used. I also don't want to tamper with my normal CW offset if I don't need to. By engaging in RIT, I would like to temporally dip the incoming pitch, leave my CW offset alone where I want it 95% of the time, and then adjust the frequency of the APF to match/peak the incoming pitch selected by RIT. If I want to experiment with different pitch settings based on band conditions, I also want the ability for the APF peak to track the pitch I've selected on RIT. That requires a tunable APF. This is precisely what the FT-1000/D gave its users. Of course, the greater the departure of the RIT pitch from the offset may require a wider DSP filter setting and/or roofing filter. But under these weak band conditions, wide DSP and roofing filters are just fine when band activity and adjacent interference is low or moderate. When I'm working early morning grayline DX on 80m or 40m, I rarely encounter strong adjacent stations since conditions are long and stateside is not heard much of the time. Because of this, my overall Rx bandwidth is generally set to 2.8 kHz or greater. Even when weak DX is running split and listening up 2 kHz, there's ample separation to allow a filter settings wide enough to depart a few hundred Hz from the CW offset. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
Wes, If you are running on 160 or 80 in a contest and a weak signal calls you slightly off frequency, it's handy on the FT1000D to move the apf freq around to find him and enhance his signal. In theory you could do the same with the RIT, but it can be easier to move the apf, particularly if there is more than one weak signal. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I do like that feature. 73, andy, ae6y -- From: Wes Stewart n...@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 6:50 PM To: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report Wayne, Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me. Wes --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: Wes, The TX and VFO frequencies won't behave any differently with APF turned on, if that's what you're asking. They'll still be corrected for your sidetone pitch, as always. APF will behave like a tunable narrow filter superimposed on the normal passband. Its initial frequency would match the sidetone pitch, but you'll be able to move it around using the shift control. We're still playing with it. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
guess I will be brave, step up, assume the dummy position, and ask the obvious question what the heck is APF Animal Protective Foundation Advanced Protection Formula American Pain Foundation pick one: http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/APF signed clueless GB 73 K5OAI Sam Morgan On 10/24/2010 10:43 AM, Roy Morris wrote: I used APF in the past on CW contacts when needed. This feature seems to have been lost on some of todays modern radios. Because I haven't pounded the brass as much as I used to, I had forgotten about this wonderful APF feature. Those of us who have used it on CW know how really great this feature is. Weak CW signals that are unreadable are enhanced with APF making some QRP contacts possible that otherwise wouldn't be heard. Wayne has said he is putting this feature on the K3 list. I am thrilled that Elecraft is considering this feature. I am looking forward to having APF on my K3s. Roy Morris W4WFB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Audio peak Filter -Bruce N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
isn't that kind of what the CWT or any cw decoding software does when decoding? GB 73 K5OAI Sam Morgan On 10/24/2010 11:04 AM, Bruce Beford wrote: Audio peak Filter -Bruce N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
According to Icom (who has it on some of their rigs): The APF changes the audio frequency response by boosting a particular frequency to enhance a desired CW signal... The peak frequency can be adjusted So this is an adjustable frequency audio filter such as we've used for the past 3/4 century. As Doug, KR2Q, noted, the K3 is capable of a 50 Hz bandpass. That's about as narrow as a CW signal being keyed at 20 or 30 wpm can be fit into. Narrower will attenuate the CW sidebands so the dots and dashes start slurring together. I've used an audio filter many times and found them of very limited value to me if the receiver has a decent I.F. bandpass characteristic. That said, if it it's reasonable to implement, people want it, and it can be switched out, I'm all for it. Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
This may be a reasonable representation of the concept ? http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/ic7600/apf.html ~Iain / N6ML On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire r...@cobi.biz wrote: According to Icom (who has it on some of their rigs): The APF changes the audio frequency response by boosting a particular frequency to enhance a desired CW signal... The peak frequency can be adjusted So this is an adjustable frequency audio filter such as we've used for the past 3/4 century. As Doug, KR2Q, noted, the K3 is capable of a 50 Hz bandpass. That's about as narrow as a CW signal being keyed at 20 or 30 wpm can be fit into. Narrower will attenuate the CW sidebands so the dots and dashes start slurring together. I've used an audio filter many times and found them of very limited value to me if the receiver has a decent I.F. bandpass characteristic. That said, if it it's reasonable to implement, people want it, and it can be switched out, I'm all for it. Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Sam wrote: isn't that kind of what the CWT or any cw decoding software does when decoding? GB 73 K5OAI Sam Morgan Not exactly. My understanding is that an audio peaking filter actually boosts or accentuates the audio at a particular frequency, rather than attenuating those at other frequencies. It's function is to enhance one thing, rather than reduce other things. It's all in the semantics, I suppose... 73, Bruce N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Seems to me that adjusting the Pitch to one that most comfortably stands out from others and then using Spot ought to accomplish the same thing. No? -- 73, Dick KA1OZ Middleborough, MA Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859 Antenna: Titan-DX Bruce Beford wrote: Sam wrote: isn't that kind of what the CWT or any cw decoding software does when decoding? GB 73 K5OAI Sam Morgan Not exactly. My understanding is that an audio peaking filter actually boosts or accentuates the audio at a particular frequency, rather than attenuating those at other frequencies. It's function is to enhance one thing, rather than reduce other things. It's all in the semantics, I suppose... 73, Bruce N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Apparently not. Some with experience with other radio's implementation of an APF function say that the currently available filtration offerings on the K3 are not equivalent. As the link recently posted for Adam Farson's page on the Icom APF shows, an APF can roll off the adjacent frequencies, rather than having a flat pass-band, at whatever width. Like all audio enhancement, it's a rather subjective thing. Bruce, N1RX (Not an avid APF cheerleader, but I -do- like having many filtering options). -Original Message- From: Dick Roth, KA1OZ [mailto:raro...@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 1:45 PM To: Bruce Beford Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 Seems to me that adjusting the Pitch to one that most comfortably stands out from others and then using Spot ought to accomplish the same thing. No? -- 73, Dick KA1OZ Middleborough, MA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
I have found that using the receive EQ for this works quite nicely. I raise the frequency matching that of my side-tone and attenuate all others. The K3 will automatically switch to this EQ setting when you enable the CW mode and switch to the SSB setting when that mode is enabled. Good luck, Mike N8XPQ -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5667924p5668278.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
No, actually not. The MP has something like APF, without calling it that. On CW if you turn on EDSP and set contour to 11 oclock and set NR to D and then set spot to 450, what you will get is a rounded AF response. This works well running (as opposed to search and pounce) in a contest, when you want to hear up and down a ways to catch the off-frequency callers (seemingly about 25% of world population, equals entirely common, typical tone-deaf to some degree), but don't want the entire bandwidth of noise roaring in your ear. At this point, I have no means of duplicating that in the K3. This is NOT the same as running narrower bandwidth. If I narrow bandwidth, then I don't hear the off-frequency callers, some of which are closer to the up or down stations than me. Throwing away up and down callers easily throws away 10% of run QSO's depending on how tight you have to squeeze. This is why I have the 250 roofing filter defined as 350 with the 400 defined as 450. I will run at 450 if I can get away with it. When it gets crowded, 350 running is really as tight as I want to go, just so I can hear off-frequency callers. I just need to hear them well enough to get them in with shift or RIT. 450 with APF is having your cake and eating it too. For that matter, if Wayne sees this, a fixed to center mild NR-generated APF that came out like the MP version but with an automatic band-pass following center might be a big hit. Try the above with an MP some time and see if you can mimmick that in K3 firmware. Once discovered, it was always a favorite. That's where I got stuck on 450 Hz as a center frequency. Just got used to it. I don't hate my MP. I just wish to H* that it had a K3 style uncrushable RF IF string. Yes, APF, and sooner than later, and with a scalar adjustment to how deep it goes and the width. 73, Guy. On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Dick Roth, KA1OZ raro...@comcast.net wrote: Seems to me that adjusting the Pitch to one that most comfortably stands out from others and then using Spot ought to accomplish the same thing. No? -- 73, Dick KA1OZ Middleborough, MA Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859 Antenna: Titan-DX Bruce Beford wrote: Sam wrote: isn't that kind of what the CWT or any cw decoding software does when decoding? GB 73 K5OAI Sam Morgan Not exactly. My understanding is that an audio peaking filter actually boosts or accentuates the audio at a particular frequency, rather than attenuating those at other frequencies. It's function is to enhance one thing, rather than reduce other things. It's all in the semantics, I suppose... 73, Bruce N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
The only radio I found APF extremely useful was my FT1000D. It could pull essentially inaudible signals out of the noise on 80 and 160. I believe Yaesu modified and broke the APF in later 1000D's, and there was a mod to resurrect it. I found the APF in my Icom 7800 worthless. IMO, implemented the right way, as in the early 1000D's, it would be a useful feature. Barry W2UP -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5667924p5668346.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
I found the APF in my Icom 7800 worthless. Same here. Icom's implementation of APF in the '7700/'7800 is really an Audio Passband Filter with low Q. It's really no different than narrowing a DSP passband filter. What's unique about the FT-1000D's APF is that the Q is very high, although its affected with APF tuning. The high Q of the circuit forms a very narrow filter with fixed gain, and variable peaking frequency. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
I found the AF Tune peaking function in the old Kenwood TS930 to be quite useful. Is that similar to the desired implementation or was it something different? 73, Bob K2TK On 10/24/2010 2:47 PM, Paul Christensen wrote: I found the APF in my Icom 7800 worthless. Same here. Icom's implementation of APF in the '7700/'7800 is really an Audio Passband Filter with low Q. It's really no different than narrowing a DSP passband filter. What's unique about the FT-1000D's APF is that the Q is very high, although its affected with APF tuning. The high Q of the circuit forms a very narrow filter with fixed gain, and variable peaking frequency. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Shortly after the K3 appeared on the scene three years ago, those of us who had gotten used to (and enamored of) the APF in the FT-1000D lobbied for such a circuit in the K3. As I understand it, the Yaesu SCAF circuit was studied, but nothing ever came of it. Software-defined radios are radically different from analog ones, as we all know. Every once in a while I'll fire up the 1000D and appreciate all over again the effectiveness of its APF. 73, Kent K9ZTV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
I have never used a receiver with a button labeled APF, but I have used my K2 with an audio filter. It seems to me the only other characteristic of APF is that the center frequency can be changed. On the K3, we have the Dual Passband that may work in a similar manner. Set the width to the lowest value 50 Hz and turn on Dual PB and you have a wide filter with a peak at your sidetone pitch. You can change the Pitch if you wish to peak a different audio frequency, but for the life of me, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to peak any pitch other than his preferred sidetone pitch. If you want a little more peaking, turn on NR and set it to an aggressive setting. The way NR works is that it builds a narrow filter around a signal that it thinks is a valid signal - so you have a filter at the audio pitch where you have set the VFO. Yes, the K3 is different than those receiver that have APF, but in my opinion, it accomplishes the same thing, but differently. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/24/2010 2:47 PM, Paul Christensen wrote: I found the APF in my Icom 7800 worthless. Same here. Icom's implementation of APF in the '7700/'7800 is really an Audio Passband Filter with low Q. It's really no different than narrowing a DSP passband filter. What's unique about the FT-1000D's APF is that the Q is very high, although its affected with APF tuning. The high Q of the circuit forms a very narrow filter with fixed gain, and variable peaking frequency. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
On Oct 24, 2010, at 2:59 PM, Bob wrote: I found the AF Tune peaking function in the old Kenwood TS930 to be quite useful. I'm generally not a fan of using audio peaking filters (in my early years of hamming, I spent too much time listening on receivers that had audio filters instead of adequate IF filtering), but I grudgingly thought the APF on my TS-940 made the difference between readability or not in certain weak signal situations on 160 and 80. Despite its DSP-based audio contouring, I've missed having an APF on my TS-950SDX (over a many-year period) and I'm thinking I wouldn't mind having a tunable APF on my K3 (which I've had for only a few weeks) as well. Bud, W2RU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
kinda reminds me of the q multiplier I had on the old Drake 2B. That thing was unbelievable at bringing cw signals out of the soup. Lou WA3MIX - Original Message - From: Bruce Beford bruce.bef...@myfairpoint.net To: ka...@arrl.net Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 Apparently not. Some with experience with other radio's implementation of an APF function say that the currently available filtration offerings on the K3 are not equivalent. As the link recently posted for Adam Farson's page on the Icom APF shows, an APF can roll off the adjacent frequencies, rather than having a flat pass-band, at whatever width. Like all audio enhancement, it's a rather subjective thing. Bruce, N1RX (Not an avid APF cheerleader, but I -do- like having many filtering options). -Original Message- From: Dick Roth, KA1OZ [mailto:raro...@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 1:45 PM To: Bruce Beford Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3 Seems to me that adjusting the Pitch to one that most comfortably stands out from others and then using Spot ought to accomplish the same thing. No? -- 73, Dick KA1OZ Middleborough, MA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
My guess is that Q-multiplier was in the IF. The old HeathKit QF-1s were at 455KHz. For best functionality (and maximum difficulty?) this peaking function would work best withing the AGC loop at IF. At AF, it won't do a lot of good if you have another nearby, within pass band signal pumping the AGC. 73 de Brian/K3KO On 10/24/2010 19:38, Lou Kolb wrote: kinda reminds me of the q multiplier I had on the old Drake 2B. That thing was unbelievable at bringing cw signals out of the soup. Lou WA3MIX - Original Message - - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1144 / Virus Database: 422/3216 - Release Date: 10/24/10 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
The APF does as you say, builds a narrow filter around an audio signal, and it does this down to a razor sharp peak. But what really makes it so great (and distinguishes it from just an audio filter) is that it adds another dimension. In addition It peaks or boosts the narrowed down audio signal. That is why we users say that it pulls the signal up out of the mud. The FT-1000's APF and my TS-930S (I wish I still had her, sniff, sniff) did this very effectively. The CW signal can be right down at the noise level, you know it is in there but cannot copy. By adjusting the APF you can pull the signal up out of the mud and copy the signal. Bob K6UJ On Oct 24, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: I have never used a receiver with a button labeled APF, but I have used my K2 with an audio filter. It seems to me the only other characteristic of APF is that the center frequency can be changed. On the K3, we have the Dual Passband that may work in a similar manner. Set the width to the lowest value 50 Hz and turn on Dual PB and you have a wide filter with a peak at your sidetone pitch. You can change the Pitch if you wish to peak a different audio frequency, but for the life of me, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to peak any pitch other than his preferred sidetone pitch. If you want a little more peaking, turn on NR and set it to an aggressive setting. The way NR works is that it builds a narrow filter around a signal that it thinks is a valid signal - so you have a filter at the audio pitch where you have set the VFO. Yes, the K3 is different than those receiver that have APF, but in my opinion, it accomplishes the same thing, but differently. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/24/2010 2:47 PM, Paul Christensen wrote: I found the APF in my Icom 7800 worthless. Same here. Icom's implementation of APF in the '7700/'7800 is really an Audio Passband Filter with low Q. It's really no different than narrowing a DSP passband filter. What's unique about the FT-1000D's APF is that the Q is very high, although its affected with APF tuning. The high Q of the circuit forms a very narrow filter with fixed gain, and variable peaking frequency. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Roy Morris-6 wrote: I used APF in the past on CW contacts when needed. This feature seems to have been lost on some of todays modern radios. Because I haven't pounded the brass as much as I used to, I had forgotten about this wonderful APF feature. Those of us who have used it on CW know how really great this feature is. Weak CW signals that are unreadable are enhanced with APF making some QRP contacts possible that otherwise wouldn't be heard. Wayne has said he is putting this feature on the K3 list. I am thrilled that Elecraft is considering this feature. I am looking forward to having APF on my K3s. APF was discussed extensively in August 2009 (check the archives) including a simulation of the exact FT-1000D APF circuit I sent to Al W6LX. It has always been on the list but Wayne has now made no less than 3 promises on the Yahoo Groups K3 list in the past few days that we're working on it. Maybe something will actually come to pass this time! In the meantime: W6LX's simulation (PowerPoint with several graphs): http://sites.google.com/site/ft1000apf/w6lxanalysisoftheapfcircuitintheft-1000 How to emulate APF in the K3 if you have a 200 Hz filter: http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg88687.html 73, Bill 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5667924p5668599.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Be aware though that the DSP 'switches off' the EQ once you get to 100Hz and below bandwidth. If you raise your cw sidetone frequency band as you suggest and then wind down the bandwidth your signal will take a dive as you cross the 100Hz point. 73, Stewart Rolfe, GW0ETF N8XPQ wrote: I have found that using the receive EQ for this works quite nicely. I raise the frequency matching that of my side-tone and attenuate all others. The K3 will automatically switch to this EQ setting when you enable the CW mode and switch to the SSB setting when that mode is enabled. Good luck, Mike N8XPQ -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5667924p5668627.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
Thanks Bob. I understand now. The AFX provides the effect of both narrowing the bandwidth and increasing the audio gain. That increases the effect of having the signal pop out of the noise. Any time we listen to a single-frequency or narrow-band signal surrounded by white (or pink) noise and then reduce the bandwidth to remove the off-frequency noise it will seem as the audio level has dropped too. That's because our hearing reacts to the total audio power coming down the audio channel which greatly varies with the bandwidth when noise is present. So, after decreasing the bandwidth to kill much of the noise, we raise the gain to bring the signal back up to a normal listening level. When we do that with filters in the I.F., the receiver's AGC system will bring the gain up automatically as the selectivity is narrowed. AFX provides the same effect when more filtering is wanted at audio frequencies - after the AGC loop. I doubt if I'd notice the difference since I normally copy weak signals with the AGC off. I'm used to riding the gain manually anyway. The first active audio filter I worked with that provided both gain and selectivity was the Selectoject from the 1950's. It was very popular back then. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- ...But what really makes it so great (and distinguishes it from just an audio filter) is that it adds another dimension. In addition It peaks or boosts the narrowed down audio signal. That is why we users say that it pulls the signal up out of the mud. The FT-1000's APF and my TS-930S (I wish I still had her, sniff, sniff) did this very effectively. The CW signal can be right down at the noise level, you know it is in there but cannot copy. By adjusting the APF you can pull the signal up out of the mud and copy the signal. Bob K6UJ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3
I am exited by the prospect of its arrival. The APF on my FT1000D was an excellent aid for weak signal work. I miss not having it on my K3. I'm sure Elecraft's firmware implementation of an APF will be quite unique and hopefully very useful. I'll gladly except every tool that Elecraft can add to the K3. 73, Mike K2MK Roy Morris-6 wrote: I used APF in the past on CW contacts when needed. This feature seems to have been lost on some of todays modern radios. Because I haven't pounded the brass as much as I used to, I had forgotten about this wonderful APF feature. Those of us who have used it on CW know how really great this feature is. Weak CW signals that are unreadable are enhanced with APF making some QRP contacts possible that otherwise wouldn't be heard. Wayne has said he is putting this feature on the K3 list. I am thrilled that Elecraft is considering this feature. I am looking forward to having APF on my K3s. Roy Morris W4WFB -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5667924p5668902.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
