Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Jon Elson]

andy pugh wrote:
>
> Yes, that would be the "bldc" component.
> It is a work in progress, as people keep producing oddball encoding
> and driving schemes.
>   
Yes, this is the dirty side of the brushless world, vendors saw a new 
way to obfuscate and make
their motors and drives incompatible with anybody else's.  The only one 
I've seen that made real sense
is Yaskawa's.  They have a 3-channel encoder with transitions of about 
the same rate on each channel.
But, the phase of the C channel varies with octant, so it provides 
commutation information if the motor is
moved only a couple encoder counts.  This requires an absolute minimum 
of signals, except for schemes that
encode the information in a serial stream or something like that.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

Well, I guess I will find out. I just picked up two amps (supposedly new) for 
$20 each plus shipping. Might be too good to be true, but I guess at that price 
if I blow them up no big deal. I have started shopping for an oscilloscope just 
in case...

--- On Sun, 4/24/11, andy pugh  wrote:

> From: andy pugh 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Sunday, April 24, 2011, 8:01 AM
> On 24 April 2011 15:39, Robert Pabon
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/pdf/7225ac.pdf
> > What they are doing is using two analog +-10v to
> represent the current command for the u and v and then they
> > are synthesizing w either 120 or 90 degrees apart.
> 
> Why do they do these strange things?
> 
> > This seems pretty doable assuming using something like
> the 5i20 than a 7i33 card.
> 
> Indeed. The bldc component outputs individual UVW
> amplitudes, you
> would just ignore the W.
> 
> I still think an 8i20 would be cheaper and easier. (except
> for needing
> an external PSU)
> 
> --
> atp
> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the
> guidance of wise men"
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[andy pugh]

On 24 April 2011 19:23, Jon Elson  wrote:

> The difficult part is that a hal component needs to know the approximate
> rotor position to provide U and V signals that will get the motor to
> move.

The bldc component can use Hall signals for that, then switch to using
the encoder when it sees the index (or, alternatively, at the first
Hall transition)

> I think somebody has got a new component that does most of this, but it
> is still pretty experimental.

Yes, that would be the "bldc" component.
It is a work in progress, as people keep producing oddball encoding
and driving schemes.

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[andy pugh]

On 24 April 2011 16:32, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> For bare Hbridges the U/V/W are offset so that 0 drive means all PWMS are set
> to 50%. Does the BLDC component set this offset or is it in TPPWM?

bldc outputs three signed values. The offset is handled in tppwmgen.
This would actually work with conventional PWMgens too, as it is
effectively two analogue voltages so the PWM phasing isn't important.
You would need to offset in HAL if that is required.
There is a 6-wire output mode for bldc with individual positive and
negative PWMs for each channel.


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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Jon Elson]

Robert Pabon wrote:
> Andy I wanted to get back to this because I am looking at another amp that 
> uses sinusoidal drive. It is a copley 7425 AC drive:
> http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/pdf/7225ac.pdf
> What they are doing is using two analog +-10v to represent the current 
> command for the u and v and then they are synthesizing w either 120 or 90 
> degrees apart.
Actually, because there are only three wires on the servo motor, U + V + 
W must equal 0 (zero).
So, W can be derived by simple subtraction.
>  This seems pretty doable assuming using something like the 5i20 than a 7i33 
> card. 
> The obvious benefits are that I get the voltages I need, I get line power so 
> I just need a line filter which will definitely offset the cost of the extra 
> card. but it looks maybe a bit harder to set up. What do you think?
>
>   
The difficult part is that a hal component needs to know the approximate 
rotor position to provide U and V signals that will get the motor to 
move.  Once it has passed the index marker, the exact position can be 
computed from the encoder count.
I think somebody has got a new component that does most of this, but it 
is still pretty experimental.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, andy pugh wrote:

> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:01:04 +0100
> From: andy pugh 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> 
> On 24 April 2011 15:39, Robert Pabon  wrote:
>
>> http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/pdf/7225ac.pdf
>> What they are doing is using two analog +-10v to represent the current 
>> command for the u and v and then they
>> are synthesizing w either 120 or 90 degrees apart.
>
> Why do they do these strange things?
>
>> This seems pretty doable assuming using something like the 5i20 than a 7i33 
>> card.
>
> Indeed. The bldc component outputs individual UVW amplitudes, you
> would just ignore the W.

For bare Hbridges the U/V/W are offset so that 0 drive means all PWMS are set 
to 50%. Does the BLDC component set this offset or is it in TPPWM?

Also if you have more tha 2 axis you would probaly want a 7I48 as you need 2 
analog outputs per axis


>
> I still think an 8i20 would be cheaper and easier. (except for needing
> an external PSU)
>
> --
> atp
> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
>
> --
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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[andy pugh]

On 24 April 2011 15:39, Robert Pabon  wrote:

> http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/pdf/7225ac.pdf
> What they are doing is using two analog +-10v to represent the current 
> command for the u and v and then they
> are synthesizing w either 120 or 90 degrees apart.

Why do they do these strange things?

> This seems pretty doable assuming using something like the 5i20 than a 7i33 
> card.

Indeed. The bldc component outputs individual UVW amplitudes, you
would just ignore the W.

I still think an 8i20 would be cheaper and easier. (except for needing
an external PSU)

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

Andy I wanted to get back to this because I am looking at another amp that uses 
sinusoidal drive. It is a copley 7425 AC drive:
http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/pdf/7225ac.pdf
What they are doing is using two analog +-10v to represent the current command 
for the u and v and then they are synthesizing w either 120 or 90 degrees 
apart. This seems pretty doable assuming using something like the 5i20 than a 
7i33 card. 
The obvious benefits are that I get the voltages I need, I get line power so I 
just need a line filter which will definitely offset the cost of the extra 
card. but it looks maybe a bit harder to set up. What do you think?

--- On Sat, 4/23/11, andy pugh  wrote:

> From: andy pugh 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: robertpa...@corseusa.com, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> Cc: "Mark Wendt (Contractor)" 
> Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 9:57 AM
> On 23 April 2011 16:14, Robert Pabon
> 
> wrote:
> 
> >  If I choose an amp which requires a sinusoidal
> signal, I am not sure what to do since I haven't shopped for
> an available
> 
> The only amp I know of which requires a sinusoidal input
> (or three
> PWMs) is the Mesa 7i39.
> However, the bldc component has three (or six) PWM
> amplitudes as one
> of the output options.
> Hall and Encoder input to 3xPWM output is one of the
> better-tested
> configurations, actually.
> 
> -- 
> atp
> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the
> guidance of wise men"
> 

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

I already have the BLDC servos so I am headed down that path already ;)

--- On Sat, 4/23/11, Dave  wrote:

> From: Dave 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 12:27 PM
> On 4/23/2011 2:52 PM, Kirk Wallace
> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2011-04-23 at 07:49 -0700, Robert Pabon
> wrote:
> >    
> >> Yeah, the 80v is the only real downer for me as
> well but everything
> >> else looks good. The PWM command eliminates the
> need for a pwn to
> >> analog conversion card so that is good. cost wise
> I am waiting on a
> >> final answer but they are cheap. My budget is
> minimal and I am trying
> >> to do champagne on a soda budget. I am looking at
> about $70 per axis
> >> for those amps.
> >>      
> > Don't forget about brushed servos. They aren't as sexy
> as brushless, but
> > should work just as well (mostly) and be cheaper.
> > http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/00013-1a.jpg
> > http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/bridgeport/00047-1a.jpg
> >
> >    
> Absolutely.   There is nothing wrong with
> brushed servo drive except for 
> the sex appeal (which I find lacking..  ;-)  )
> 
> This is the Canadian company I was thinking about.
> 
> http://www.dmm-tech.com/Pricing.html
> 
> Dave
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Jon Elson]

> On 4/22/2011 5:26 PM, Robert Pabon wrote:
>   
>> Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver for this motor. The 1224BL is 
>> the comparable amp:
>>
>> http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either sinusoidal or trapezoidal.
Ah, well then maybe my servo amps would work fine with this motor.  That 
servo dynamics unit spec'ed above also looks to be a trapezoidal drive.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Dave]

On 4/23/2011 2:52 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-04-23 at 07:49 -0700, Robert Pabon wrote:
>
>> Yeah, the 80v is the only real downer for me as well but everything
>> else looks good. The PWM command eliminates the need for a pwn to
>> analog conversion card so that is good. cost wise I am waiting on a
>> final answer but they are cheap. My budget is minimal and I am trying
>> to do champagne on a soda budget. I am looking at about $70 per axis
>> for those amps.
>>  
> Don't forget about brushed servos. They aren't as sexy as brushless, but
> should work just as well (mostly) and be cheaper.
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/00013-1a.jpg
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/bridgeport/00047-1a.jpg
>
>
Absolutely.   There is nothing wrong with brushed servo drive except for 
the sex appeal (which I find lacking..  ;-)  )

This is the Canadian company I was thinking about.

http://www.dmm-tech.com/Pricing.html

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2011-04-23 at 07:49 -0700, Robert Pabon wrote:
> Yeah, the 80v is the only real downer for me as well but everything
> else looks good. The PWM command eliminates the need for a pwn to
> analog conversion card so that is good. cost wise I am waiting on a
> final answer but they are cheap. My budget is minimal and I am trying
> to do champagne on a soda budget. I am looking at about $70 per axis
> for those amps.

Don't forget about brushed servos. They aren't as sexy as brushless, but
should work just as well (mostly) and be cheaper.
http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/00013-1a.jpg 
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/bridgeport/00047-1a.jpg 

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

I'm not sure I follow.

What I was referring to was something like this amp:

http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/sx25a20.pdf

Which requires two sine waves with a 120 degree phase shift. The phase angle 
corresponds to motor angle and the amplitude corresponds to torque. My 
understanding of PWM is that it is a square wave and you are using the the 
width of that wave to for control. I am not sure how that relates to the sine 
wave or how I would get from the 5I22 into the AMC amp above. I would need some 
sort of signal converter to convert the PWM to a sine wave in order to get 
something useable or is that functionally possible?

--- On Sat, 4/23/11, andy pugh  wrote:

> From: andy pugh 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: robertpa...@corseusa.com, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> Cc: "Mark Wendt (Contractor)" 
> Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 9:57 AM
> On 23 April 2011 16:14, Robert Pabon
> 
> wrote:
> 
> >  If I choose an amp which requires a sinusoidal
> signal, I am not sure what to do since I haven't shopped for
> an available
> 
> The only amp I know of which requires a sinusoidal input
> (or three
> PWMs) is the Mesa 7i39.
> However, the bldc component has three (or six) PWM
> amplitudes as one
> of the output options.
> Hall and Encoder input to 3xPWM output is one of the
> better-tested
> configurations, actually.
> 
> -- 
> atp
> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the
> guidance of wise men"
> 

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[andy pugh]

On 23 April 2011 16:14, Robert Pabon  wrote:

>  If I choose an amp which requires a sinusoidal signal, I am not sure what to 
> do since I haven't shopped for an available

The only amp I know of which requires a sinusoidal input (or three
PWMs) is the Mesa 7i39.
However, the bldc component has three (or six) PWM amplitudes as one
of the output options.
Hall and Encoder input to 3xPWM output is one of the better-tested
configurations, actually.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Mark Wendt (Contractor)]

On 4/23/2011 11:12 AM, dave wrote:
>> Okay, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed here too.  I'm currently using
>> steppers on my saw beveler, but have future thoughts of upgrading to a
>> servo based system.  So, if what Robert shows as necessary, for one axis
>> I'd need a servo, an amp, a driver, a bunch of cards for the pc end of
>> the affair, an O scope, tons of other test equipment...
>>
>> Have I left anything out?  ;-)
>>
>> I'm really beginning to wonder if it's worth the expense.
>>
>> Mark
> Single channel servo (clone as necessary):
>
>   -<   power_supply
>   |
> emc ->  motion_card ->  servo_amp ->  motor ( dc | ac )
>   |   |
>   ---<   encoder
>
> For dc servos it is nice to have a tach for velocity feedback although
> cradek has demonstrated a nice way around that.
>
> This usually gets you several things; increased speed, freedom from
> mid-band resonance, usually lots of I/O for limit switches and probably
> more attributes I cannot recall at present (too early in the morning).
>
> Setting up a servo is not as daunting as  one might think. It does help
> to put a channel on the bench and learn about it while it is not
> connected to an axis ( less stuff to damage if it does something
> unexpected). ;-)
>
> I would never connected a servo to a real machine without having e-stop
> limit switches in place and tested.  Please don't ask why I think this
> is important.
>
> Halscope is invaluable once you start on the real machine. Thanks
> JMK! :-)
>
> HTH
>
> Dave

Thanks Dave and everyone who's contributed.  It's a consideration for a 
future update.  Right now, the machine is working fine on steppers, but 
I thought with servos, I'd get a better torque throughout the speed 
range, and maybe a little more accuracy on the positioning.  One thing I 
haven't taken into account is the dual-stepper setup on the X axis. 
 From what I've read, and talked about on the IRC Channel, it's a lot 
more tricky to home a dual-servo setup, whereas with the steppers, I 
have just one home switch on the X axis.

More things to think about and consider for the future.  But thanks for 
all the info.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

Thanks gene, but I actually want to do the closed loop bldc/ac route for the 
learning experience. I guess I always have the stepper route if I manage to 
really much things up!

--- On Sat, 4/23/11, gene heskett  wrote:

> From: gene heskett 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 8:25 AM
> On Saturday, April 23, 2011 11:13:32
> AM Robert Pabon did opine:
> 
> > Yeah, the 80v is the only real downer for me as well
> but everything else
> > looks good. The PWM command eliminates the need for a
> pwn to analog
> > conversion card so that is good. cost wise I am
> waiting on a final
> > answer but they are cheap. My budget is minimal and I
> am trying to do
> > champagne on a soda budget. I am looking at about $70
> per axis for
> > those amps.
> 
> Don't overlook the xylotex offerings for the small
> stuff.  A kit of 4 ea 
> 425oz motors and a 4 axis driver can probably be had for
> about $460, but 
> check the site at <http://www.xylotex.com/> to be
> sure.  That supply is 
> only 24 volt, which would have a max ipm a bit less than my
> 28 volt gives.
> 
> I went slightly cheaper the last time I ordered as I had
> already cobbled up 
> a 9 or 10 amp 28 volt supply from my junk box.  And I
> also cobbled up the 
> box for the drivers, so all I got was the 4 axis driver
> board and 4 ea 425 
> motors.
> 
> This makes a good kit for smaller machines IMO.  I
> also have a pmdx-106 
> running the spindle motor, and that works very well.
> 
> -- 
> Cheers, Gene
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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> <http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html>
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> replacing JEE 
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what
> you can gain 
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
> ___
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> 

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

I ran my numbers through a calculator and I needed 38 ounce inches on each 
axis. That was using some pretty high numbers for my table weights and speeds 
for my little smithy machine. I think I gave myself 150lbs on the table to 
account for a tool turret in the future. My motors are rated for 101oz-in. Even 
running down at about 80v I should still have about 1700RPM out of the motors 
which with my 5mm lead is good for about 344in per minute which is ridiculously 
fast for my 8 in travel on my cross slide and my 15 inch travel on my 
longitudinal axis. I will probably gear down about 5:1 which still gives me 
nearly 70 ipm.

--- On Sat, 4/23/11, Dave  wrote:

> From: Dave 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: robertpa...@corseusa.com, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 8:16 AM
> >>I am trying to do champagne
> on a soda budget
> 
> You are not alone.  :-)
> 
> >>I am looking at about $70 per axis for those amps.
> 
> That is really cheap.
> 
> How much power or torque do you need?
> 
> There was a guy selling brushless drives and motors out of
> Canada (Vancouver?) for a while on Ebay and his setups were
> very inexpense.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> On 4/23/2011 10:49 AM, Robert Pabon wrote:
> > Yeah, the 80v is the only real downer for me as well
> but everything else looks good. The PWM command eliminates
> the need for a pwn to analog conversion card so that is
> good. cost wise I am waiting on a final answer but they are
> cheap. My budget is minimal and I am trying to do champagne
> on a soda budget. I am looking at about $70 per axis for
> those amps.
> >
> > --- On Fri, 4/22/11, andy pugh 
> wrote:
> >
> >    
> >> From: andy pugh
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> >> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 2:50 PM
> >> On 22 April 2011 22:26, Robert Pabon
> >> 
> >> wrote:
> >>      
> >>> Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder
> people just
> >>>        
> >> go with steppers and call it a day. Maybe my
> vision is
> >> clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem like it
> should be
> >> that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a
> suitable amp
> >> and make it work.
> >>
> >> The issue is that to commmutate a brushless motor
> the drive
> >> needs to
> >> know the rotor position. There are lots of ways
> that that
> >> information
> >> can be transmitted, and the manufacturers seem to
> like to
> >> choose
> >> deliberately incompatible methods (possibly so
> that they
> >> can guarantee
> >> motor and drive compatibility).
> >>
> >>      
> >>> http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
> >>>        
> >> Looks good. No wierdness there, just conventional
> Hall
> >> sensors and an
> >> incremental encoder. That's about as easy as it
> gets.
> >>
> >>      
> >>> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
> >>>        
> >> That one looks a little easier than the other, as
> it takes
> >> a PWM input
> >> rather than an analogue voltage.
> >> It claims to allow you to swap the hall phasing
> between 60
> >> and 120
> >> degrees, so combined with the 6 possible ways to
> connect
> >> the halls and
> >> the 6 possible ways to connect the power cables I
> think
> >> all
> >> possibilities are covered.
> >> The drawback of the AMC drive you linked is that
> it only
> >> goes up to 80V.
> >>
> >> How much are they?
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> atp
> >> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools
> and the
> >> guidance of wise men"
> >>
> >>
> --
> >> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> >> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and
> the
> >> benefits have been
> >> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers
> are
> >> replacing JEE
> >> containers with lightweight application servers -
> and what
> >> you can gain
> >> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Dave]

Mach3 works ok for open loop if you don't modify it.

If you do..start doing macros, etc you will spend an inordinate amount 
of time overcoming bugs, and "undocumented features".It can be a 
real time eater working around issues.   And oftentimes things will pop 
up out of no where and bite
you even after you "think" you have found all of the bugs..

The reason why there is so much traffic on the Mach3 support forums is 
because support is required to make it do what you want if you do 
anything outside of a "box stock" standard install.

I have EMC2 running on some open loop systems with heavy modifications 
on production machines and it is rock solid reliable.

Set it up, configure it, test it, run the machine, train the operator, 
leave, then call the customer in a few months to check to make sure they 
didn't go out of business.  ;-)

Seriously.  EMC2 is very reliable when properly setup.

Dave

On 4/23/2011 11:14 AM, Robert Pabon wrote:
> Mark, It isn't that dire, I don't think. I just think that there are a lot of 
> nuances and compromises. I think if you are willing to live with some 
> compromises it isn't that bad, but then again I am just getting started.
>
> Here is my understanding of what I need so far:
>
> A PC to run EMC.
> I will need a motion control card (i.e the Mesa5I20 or equivalent).
> I will need a servo amp.
> I will need a servo/encoder.
>
> My driver is the pc with the mesa 5I20 card as long as I get an amp that 
> accepts PWM input. If I get an amp that requires an analog +-10V signal I 
> then need to add a 7I33 daughter card to deal with the analog input the amp 
> requires. If I choose an amp which requires a sinusoidal signal, I am not 
> sure what to do since I haven't shopped for an available solution for that 
> yet.
>
> As far as step and direction, yes there are a ton of step and direction and 
> plenty of open loop products out there and to be honest I think that they 
> would be better served being driven by Mach. If you are using an open loop 
> system, or closing the loop outside of the machine control software then that 
> is what mach is really set up for and that is where the product support base 
> is.
>
> Rob
>
> --- On Sat, 4/23/11, Mark Wendt (Contractor)  wrote:
>
>
>> From: Mark Wendt (Contractor)
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
>> To: robertpa...@corseusa.com, "Enhanced Machine Controller 
>> (EMC)"
>> Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 3:57 AM
>> On 4/22/2011 5:26 PM, Robert Pabon
>> wrote:
>>  
>>> Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just
>>>
>> go with steppers and call it a day. Maybe my vision is
>> clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem like it should be
>> that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp
>> and make it work. Obviously it would be easier to just buy a
>> sorted motor/driver, but then it would be easier to buy a
>> sorted CNC machine as well.
>>  
>>> So getting back to the motor amp combination for a
>>>
>> second someone have a look at hese for a minute and tell me
>> what you think.
>>  
>>> This is the motor I am using:
>>>
>>> http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
>>>
>>> I am using the IG23CS-64-IE2000-S
>>>
>>> Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver
>>>
>> for this motor. The 1224BL is the comparable amp:
>>  
>>> http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf
>>>
>>> And here are the amps I was looking at using:
>>>
>>> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
>>>
>>> Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either
>>>
>> sinusoidal or trapezoidal. The AMC is trapezoidal. Obviously
>> need to add a filter card, but otherwise it looks to be in
>> the ballpark. Opinions?
>>
>>
>> Okay, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed here too.  I'm
>> currently using
>> steppers on my saw beveler, but have future thoughts of
>> upgrading to a
>> servo based system.  So, if what Robert shows as
>> necessary, for one axis
>> I'd need a servo, an amp, a driver, a bunch of cards for
>> the pc end of
>> the affair, an O scope, tons of other test equipment...
>>
>> Have I left anything out?  ;-)
>>
>> I'm really beginning to wonder if it's worth the expense.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>  
> --
> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> L

Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, April 23, 2011 11:13:32 AM Robert Pabon did opine:

> Yeah, the 80v is the only real downer for me as well but everything else
> looks good. The PWM command eliminates the need for a pwn to analog
> conversion card so that is good. cost wise I am waiting on a final
> answer but they are cheap. My budget is minimal and I am trying to do
> champagne on a soda budget. I am looking at about $70 per axis for
> those amps.

Don't overlook the xylotex offerings for the small stuff.  A kit of 4 ea 
425oz motors and a 4 axis driver can probably be had for about $460, but 
check the site at  to be sure.  That supply is 
only 24 volt, which would have a max ipm a bit less than my 28 volt gives.

I went slightly cheaper the last time I ordered as I had already cobbled up 
a 9 or 10 amp 28 volt supply from my junk box.  And I also cobbled up the 
box for the drivers, so all I got was the 4 axis driver board and 4 ea 425 
motors.

This makes a good kit for smaller machines IMO.  I also have a pmdx-106 
running the spindle motor, and that works very well.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)


-- I have seen the FUN --

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Dave]

>>I am trying to do champagne on a soda budget

You are not alone.  :-)

>>I am looking at about $70 per axis for those amps.

That is really cheap.

How much power or torque do you need?

There was a guy selling brushless drives and motors out of Canada (Vancouver?) 
for a while on Ebay and his setups were very inexpense.

Dave


On 4/23/2011 10:49 AM, Robert Pabon wrote:
> Yeah, the 80v is the only real downer for me as well but everything else 
> looks good. The PWM command eliminates the need for a pwn to analog 
> conversion card so that is good. cost wise I am waiting on a final answer but 
> they are cheap. My budget is minimal and I am trying to do champagne on a 
> soda budget. I am looking at about $70 per axis for those amps.
>
> --- On Fri, 4/22/11, andy pugh  wrote:
>
>    
>> From: andy pugh
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 2:50 PM
>> On 22 April 2011 22:26, Robert Pabon
>> 
>> wrote:
>>  
>>> Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just
>>>
>> go with steppers and call it a day. Maybe my vision is
>> clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem like it should be
>> that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp
>> and make it work.
>>
>> The issue is that to commmutate a brushless motor the drive
>> needs to
>> know the rotor position. There are lots of ways that that
>> information
>> can be transmitted, and the manufacturers seem to like to
>> choose
>> deliberately incompatible methods (possibly so that they
>> can guarantee
>> motor and drive compatibility).
>>
>>  
>>> http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
>>>
>> Looks good. No wierdness there, just conventional Hall
>> sensors and an
>> incremental encoder. That's about as easy as it gets.
>>
>>  
>>> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
>>>
>> That one looks a little easier than the other, as it takes
>> a PWM input
>> rather than an analogue voltage.
>> It claims to allow you to swap the hall phasing between 60
>> and 120
>> degrees, so combined with the 6 possible ways to connect
>> the halls and
>> the 6 possible ways to connect the power cables I think
>> all
>> possibilities are covered.
>> The drawback of the AMC drive you linked is that it only
>> goes up to 80V.
>>
>> How much are they?
>>
>> -- 
>> atp
>> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the
>> guidance of wise men"
>>
>> --
>> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
>> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the
>> benefits have been
>> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are
>> replacing JEE
>> containers with lightweight application servers - and what
>> you can gain
>> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>>  
> --
> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the benefits have been
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are replacing JEE
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what you can gain
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

Mark, It isn't that dire, I don't think. I just think that there are a lot of 
nuances and compromises. I think if you are willing to live with some 
compromises it isn't that bad, but then again I am just getting started.

Here is my understanding of what I need so far:

A PC to run EMC.
I will need a motion control card (i.e the Mesa5I20 or equivalent).
I will need a servo amp.
I will need a servo/encoder.

My driver is the pc with the mesa 5I20 card as long as I get an amp that 
accepts PWM input. If I get an amp that requires an analog +-10V signal I then 
need to add a 7I33 daughter card to deal with the analog input the amp 
requires. If I choose an amp which requires a sinusoidal signal, I am not sure 
what to do since I haven't shopped for an available solution for that yet.

As far as step and direction, yes there are a ton of step and direction and 
plenty of open loop products out there and to be honest I think that they would 
be better served being driven by Mach. If you are using an open loop system, or 
closing the loop outside of the machine control software then that is what mach 
is really set up for and that is where the product support base is.

Rob

--- On Sat, 4/23/11, Mark Wendt (Contractor)  wrote:

> From: Mark Wendt (Contractor) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: robertpa...@corseusa.com, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 3:57 AM
> On 4/22/2011 5:26 PM, Robert Pabon
> wrote:
> > Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just
> go with steppers and call it a day. Maybe my vision is
> clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem like it should be
> that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp
> and make it work. Obviously it would be easier to just buy a
> sorted motor/driver, but then it would be easier to buy a
> sorted CNC machine as well.
> >
> > So getting back to the motor amp combination for a
> second someone have a look at hese for a minute and tell me
> what you think.
> >
> > This is the motor I am using:
> >
> > http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
> >
> > I am using the IG23CS-64-IE2000-S
> >
> > Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver
> for this motor. The 1224BL is the comparable amp:
> >
> > http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf
> >
> > And here are the amps I was looking at using:
> >
> > http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
> >
> > Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either
> sinusoidal or trapezoidal. The AMC is trapezoidal. Obviously
> need to add a filter card, but otherwise it looks to be in
> the ballpark. Opinions?
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed here too.  I'm
> currently using 
> steppers on my saw beveler, but have future thoughts of
> upgrading to a 
> servo based system.  So, if what Robert shows as
> necessary, for one axis 
> I'd need a servo, an amp, a driver, a bunch of cards for
> the pc end of 
> the affair, an O scope, tons of other test equipment...
> 
> Have I left anything out?  ;-)
> 
> I'm really beginning to wonder if it's worth the expense.
> 
> Mark
> 

--
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Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the benefits have been 
demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are replacing JEE 
containers with lightweight application servers - and what you can gain 
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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[dave]

On Sat, 2011-04-23 at 06:57 -0400, Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
> On 4/22/2011 5:26 PM, Robert Pabon wrote:
> > Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just go with steppers and 
> > call it a day. Maybe my vision is clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem 
> > like it should be that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp 
> > and make it work. Obviously it would be easier to just buy a sorted 
> > motor/driver, but then it would be easier to buy a sorted CNC machine as 
> > well.
> >
> > So getting back to the motor amp combination for a second someone have a 
> > look at hese for a minute and tell me what you think.
> >
> > This is the motor I am using:
> >
> > http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
> >
> > I am using the IG23CS-64-IE2000-S
> >
> > Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver for this motor. The 1224BL 
> > is the comparable amp:
> >
> > http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf
> >
> > And here are the amps I was looking at using:
> >
> > http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
> >
> > Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either sinusoidal or 
> > trapezoidal. The AMC is trapezoidal. Obviously need to add a filter card, 
> > but otherwise it looks to be in the ballpark. Opinions?
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed here too.  I'm currently using 
> steppers on my saw beveler, but have future thoughts of upgrading to a 
> servo based system.  So, if what Robert shows as necessary, for one axis 
> I'd need a servo, an amp, a driver, a bunch of cards for the pc end of 
> the affair, an O scope, tons of other test equipment...
> 
> Have I left anything out?  ;-)
> 
> I'm really beginning to wonder if it's worth the expense.
> 
> Mark
Single channel servo (clone as necessary):

 -<  power_supply 
 |
emc -> motion_card -> servo_amp -> motor ( dc | ac )
|   |
---<  encoder

For dc servos it is nice to have a tach for velocity feedback although
cradek has demonstrated a nice way around that.  

This usually gets you several things; increased speed, freedom from
mid-band resonance, usually lots of I/O for limit switches and probably
more attributes I cannot recall at present (too early in the morning). 

Setting up a servo is not as daunting as  one might think. It does help
to put a channel on the bench and learn about it while it is not
connected to an axis ( less stuff to damage if it does something
unexpected). ;-)

I would never connected a servo to a real machine without having e-stop
limit switches in place and tested.  Please don't ask why I think this
is important. 

Halscope is invaluable once you start on the real machine. Thanks
JMK! :-)

HTH

Dave

 

> --
> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the benefits have been 
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are replacing JEE 
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what you can gain 
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

Yeah, the 80v is the only real downer for me as well but everything else looks 
good. The PWM command eliminates the need for a pwn to analog conversion card 
so that is good. cost wise I am waiting on a final answer but they are cheap. 
My budget is minimal and I am trying to do champagne on a soda budget. I am 
looking at about $70 per axis for those amps.

--- On Fri, 4/22/11, andy pugh  wrote:

> From: andy pugh 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 2:50 PM
> On 22 April 2011 22:26, Robert Pabon
> 
> wrote:
> > Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just
> go with steppers and call it a day. Maybe my vision is
> clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem like it should be
> that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp
> and make it work.
> 
> The issue is that to commmutate a brushless motor the drive
> needs to
> know the rotor position. There are lots of ways that that
> information
> can be transmitted, and the manufacturers seem to like to
> choose
> deliberately incompatible methods (possibly so that they
> can guarantee
> motor and drive compatibility).
> 
> > http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
> 
> Looks good. No wierdness there, just conventional Hall
> sensors and an
> incremental encoder. That's about as easy as it gets.
> 
> > http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
> 
> That one looks a little easier than the other, as it takes
> a PWM input
> rather than an analogue voltage.
> It claims to allow you to swap the hall phasing between 60
> and 120
> degrees, so combined with the 6 possible ways to connect
> the halls and
> the 6 possible ways to connect the power cables I think
> all
> possibilities are covered.
> The drawback of the AMC drive you linked is that it only
> goes up to 80V.
> 
> How much are they?
> 
> -- 
> atp
> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the
> guidance of wise men"
> 
> --
> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the
> benefits have been 
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are
> replacing JEE 
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what
> you can gain 
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:05:00 AM Dave did opine:

> On 4/23/2011 6:57 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
> > On 4/22/2011 5:26 PM, Robert Pabon wrote:
> >> Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just go with
> >> steppers and call it a day. Maybe my vision is clouded by ignorance
> >> but it doesn't seem like it should be that hard to pick up a
> >> brushless DC motor, a suitable amp and make it work. Obviously it
> >> would be easier to just buy a sorted motor/driver, but then it would
> >> be easier to buy a sorted CNC machine as well.
> >> 
> >> So getting back to the motor amp combination for a second someone
> >> have a look at hese for a minute and tell me what you think.
> >> 
> >> This is the motor I am using:
> >> 
> >> http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
> >> 
> >> I am using the IG23CS-64-IE2000-S
> >> 
> >> Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver for this motor. The
> >> 1224BL is the comparable amp:
> >> 
> >> http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf
> >> 
> >> And here are the amps I was looking at using:
> >> 
> >> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
> >> 
> >> Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either sinusoidal or
> >> trapezoidal. The AMC is trapezoidal. Obviously need to add a filter
> >> card, but otherwise it looks to be in the ballpark. Opinions?
> > 
There must be something wrong with my FF4.x setup, I cannot get any of 
these pdfs to download or display.  Is anyone else have problems?

> > Okay, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed here too.  I'm currently using
> > steppers on my saw beveler, but have future thoughts of upgrading to a
> > servo based system.  So, if what Robert shows as necessary, for one
> > axis I'd need a servo, an amp, a driver, a bunch of cards for the pc
> > end of the affair, an O scope, tons of other test equipment...
> > 
> > Have I left anything out?  ;-)
> > 
> > I'm really beginning to wonder if it's worth the expense.
> > 
> > Mark
> 
> Not necessarily. For instance both the Teco and the Automation
> Direct servo drives (and many other packaged systems) also accept step
> and direction input or analog velocity control.   While not as
> desirable, step and direction to those servos does work.
> 
> So you could literally disconnect your Gecko or other step and direction
> stepper drive, connect a servo drive via step and direction and go after
> setting the drive up with its own commissioning software ( not
> difficult) be up and running.
> If you are going to buy a BLDC motor and match it up with another
> companies drive, that can be a chore.
> 
> Using a packaged motor/drive eliminates the work of matching up the
> drive and the motor so you are left with tuning the loops in EMC2 to
> control the drives via analog control.
> 
> Dave

In your situation Mark, as long as the steppers can run the  saws fast 
enough they don't burn (unless they are terminally dull or loaded up with 
resins from the bamboo), I do not think I would embark on this journey.

Even then, if I needed more speed for mine, the only path I would take is 
more voltage, up to 80 for gecko drives, which could probably run my mill 
about 2.5x faster as I now run 10-15 ipm when cutting wood.  But in my 
latest genuinely rube goldberg setup, I can carve a 1" long tenon 3/8" 
thick by 1.25" long on the end of a 1x2 white ash stick with about a 
minutes actual runtime on the die grinder.  Probably 2 minutes to check and 
adjust the homes for the individual stick before I tap the R button.  I 
need to make a stop to preset the end of the stick that then swings out of 
the way, and pay more attention to the milling of the sticks to remove that 
part of the wasted time.

I lost my chance to get a G0704 from Grizzly, it is now gone from the 
catalog so I am back to living with this rig.

One problem with that tenon, my current 1/4" 2 flute upcut solid carbide 
bit is leaving a .004" high shoulder for about 1/16" away from the tenon, 
which has to be carved away by hand else the joint won't close fully.  It 
also limits me to a 1" tenon unless I write the code for multiple passes to 
get a greater length.  Neither of which is a huge problem.  I ordered some 
more bits, but the flutes are shorter, so I'll have to redo the code 
anyway.  That will likely take care of the micro-shoulder the Bosch router 
bit is leaving now too. Shrug.

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Dave]

On 4/23/2011 6:57 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
> On 4/22/2011 5:26 PM, Robert Pabon wrote:
>
>> Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just go with steppers and 
>> call it a day. Maybe my vision is clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem 
>> like it should be that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp 
>> and make it work. Obviously it would be easier to just buy a sorted 
>> motor/driver, but then it would be easier to buy a sorted CNC machine as 
>> well.
>>
>> So getting back to the motor amp combination for a second someone have a 
>> look at hese for a minute and tell me what you think.
>>
>> This is the motor I am using:
>>
>> http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
>>
>> I am using the IG23CS-64-IE2000-S
>>
>> Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver for this motor. The 1224BL is 
>> the comparable amp:
>>
>> http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf
>>
>> And here are the amps I was looking at using:
>>
>> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
>>
>> Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either sinusoidal or trapezoidal. 
>> The AMC is trapezoidal. Obviously need to add a filter card, but otherwise 
>> it looks to be in the ballpark. Opinions?
>>  
>
> Okay, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed here too.  I'm currently using
> steppers on my saw beveler, but have future thoughts of upgrading to a
> servo based system.  So, if what Robert shows as necessary, for one axis
> I'd need a servo, an amp, a driver, a bunch of cards for the pc end of
> the affair, an O scope, tons of other test equipment...
>
> Have I left anything out?  ;-)
>
> I'm really beginning to wonder if it's worth the expense.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
Not necessarily. For instance both the Teco and the Automation 
Direct servo drives (and many other packaged systems) also accept step 
and direction input or analog velocity control.   While not as 
desirable, step and direction to those servos does work.

So you could literally disconnect your Gecko or other step and direction 
stepper drive, connect a servo drive via step and direction and go after 
setting the drive up with its own commissioning software ( not 
difficult) be up and running.
If you are going to buy a BLDC motor and match it up with another 
companies drive, that can be a chore.

Using a packaged motor/drive eliminates the work of matching up the 
drive and the motor so you are left with tuning the loops in EMC2 to 
control the drives via analog control.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Mark Wendt (Contractor)]

On 4/22/2011 5:26 PM, Robert Pabon wrote:
> Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just go with steppers and 
> call it a day. Maybe my vision is clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem 
> like it should be that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp 
> and make it work. Obviously it would be easier to just buy a sorted 
> motor/driver, but then it would be easier to buy a sorted CNC machine as well.
>
> So getting back to the motor amp combination for a second someone have a look 
> at hese for a minute and tell me what you think.
>
> This is the motor I am using:
>
> http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
>
> I am using the IG23CS-64-IE2000-S
>
> Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver for this motor. The 1224BL is 
> the comparable amp:
>
> http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf
>
> And here are the amps I was looking at using:
>
> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
>
> Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either sinusoidal or trapezoidal. 
> The AMC is trapezoidal. Obviously need to add a filter card, but otherwise it 
> looks to be in the ballpark. Opinions?


Okay, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed here too.  I'm currently using 
steppers on my saw beveler, but have future thoughts of upgrading to a 
servo based system.  So, if what Robert shows as necessary, for one axis 
I'd need a servo, an amp, a driver, a bunch of cards for the pc end of 
the affair, an O scope, tons of other test equipment...

Have I left anything out?  ;-)

I'm really beginning to wonder if it's worth the expense.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Dave]

Not sure what you budget is, but the two cheapest options I know for 
packaged brushless servo drive/motor combos that work well are Teco 
which Machmotion.com sells and Automation Directs SureServo drives.

I've used both of them.

Don't overlook the price of the encoder and power cables as that really 
adds up also.

I think that Emerson also has some good prices on packaged drives also 
but you need to buy those through a distributor.   I think that Motion 
Industries sells those.

Dave

On 4/22/2011 5:26 PM, Robert Pabon wrote:
> Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just go with steppers and 
> call it a day. Maybe my vision is clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem 
> like it should be that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp 
> and make it work. Obviously it would be easier to just buy a sorted 
> motor/driver, but then it would be easier to buy a sorted CNC machine as well.
>
> So getting back to the motor amp combination for a second someone have a look 
> at hese for a minute and tell me what you think.
>
> This is the motor I am using:
>
> http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf
>
> I am using the IG23CS-64-IE2000-S
>
> Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver for this motor. The 1224BL is 
> the comparable amp:
>
> http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf
>
> And here are the amps I was looking at using:
>
> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf
>
> Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either sinusoidal or trapezoidal. 
> The AMC is trapezoidal. Obviously need to add a filter card, but otherwise it 
> looks to be in the ballpark. Opinions?
>
> --- On Fri, 4/22/11, Eric Keller  wrote:
>
>
>> From: Eric Keller
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 1:18 PM
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 3:54 PM,
>> Peter C. Wallace
>> wrote:
>>  
>>> I think part of the problem is if you just have bare
>>>
>> brushless motors its
>>  
>>> not likely you will have a plug-and-play solution
>>>
>> unless you have the
>>  
>>> matching drives, as most AC servo motors are produced
>>>
>> to work with a
>>  
>>> specific driver, and running them with a generic
>>>
>> controller _will_ involve
>>  
>>> some futzing about. If you want to avoid this, the
>>>
>> best solution is to
>>  
>>> purchase a drive/motor combination.
>>>
>> I agree.  Most commercial drives will drive other
>> manufacturers
>> motors, but it's not an easy task.  I have had some
>> experience with
>> integrating motors, and it's really difficult to avoid
>> learning way
>> too much about someone else's software, and you usually end
>> up with an
>> oscilloscope hooked up to your motor spinning it by
>> hand.  There are
>> brushless servo drives that will take either step/dir or
>> +/-10V.
>> Getting those to work with EMC is daunting enough.  If
>> the project is
>> well-funded, it's not too hard to go on ebay and buy a
>> matching set of
>> motors and drives.  My only advice is to read the
>> manuals first, I
>> have a collection of oddball drives and motors in my stash
>> from before
>> I figured this out.
>> Eric Keller
>>
>> --
>> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
>> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the
>> benefits have been
>> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are
>> replacing JEE
>> containers with lightweight application servers - and what
>> you can gain
>> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
>> ___
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>>  
> --
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>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[andy pugh]

On 22 April 2011 22:26, Robert Pabon  wrote:
> Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just go with steppers and 
> call it a day. Maybe my vision is clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem 
> like it should be that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp 
> and make it work.

The issue is that to commmutate a brushless motor the drive needs to
know the rotor position. There are lots of ways that that information
can be transmitted, and the manufacturers seem to like to choose
deliberately incompatible methods (possibly so that they can guarantee
motor and drive compatibility).

> http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf

Looks good. No wierdness there, just conventional Hall sensors and an
incremental encoder. That's about as easy as it gets.

> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf

That one looks a little easier than the other, as it takes a PWM input
rather than an analogue voltage.
It claims to allow you to swap the hall phasing between 60 and 120
degrees, so combined with the 6 possible ways to connect the halls and
the 6 possible ways to connect the power cables I think all
possibilities are covered.
The drawback of the AMC drive you linked is that it only goes up to 80V.

How much are they?

-- 
atp
"Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

Man my head is starting to spin! No wonder people just go with steppers and 
call it a day. Maybe my vision is clouded by ignorance but it doesn't seem like 
it should be that hard to pick up a brushless DC motor, a suitable amp and make 
it work. Obviously it would be easier to just buy a sorted motor/driver, but 
then it would be easier to buy a sorted CNC machine as well. 

So getting back to the motor amp combination for a second someone have a look 
at hese for a minute and tell me what you think.

This is the motor I am using:

http://www.servodynamics.com/Drawing/23S-IE.pdf

I am using the IG23CS-64-IE2000-S

Servo dynamics recommends the  1224-BLS driver for this motor. The 1224BL is 
the comparable amp:

http://www.servodynamics.com/Specs/1224bl_spec.pdf

And here are the amps I was looking at using:

http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/bd30a8.pdf

Servo dynamics says I am fine driving with either sinusoidal or trapezoidal. 
The AMC is trapezoidal. Obviously need to add a filter card, but otherwise it 
looks to be in the ballpark. Opinions?

--- On Fri, 4/22/11, Eric Keller  wrote:

> From: Eric Keller 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 1:18 PM
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 3:54 PM,
> Peter C. Wallace 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think part of the problem is if you just have bare
> brushless motors its
> > not likely you will have a plug-and-play solution
> unless you have the
> > matching drives, as most AC servo motors are produced
> to work with a
> > specific driver, and running them with a generic
> controller _will_ involve
> > some futzing about. If you want to avoid this, the
> best solution is to
> > purchase a drive/motor combination.
> 
> I agree.  Most commercial drives will drive other
> manufacturers
> motors, but it's not an easy task.  I have had some
> experience with
> integrating motors, and it's really difficult to avoid
> learning way
> too much about someone else's software, and you usually end
> up with an
> oscilloscope hooked up to your motor spinning it by
> hand.  There are
> brushless servo drives that will take either step/dir or
> +/-10V.
> Getting those to work with EMC is daunting enough.  If
> the project is
> well-funded, it's not too hard to go on ebay and buy a
> matching set of
> motors and drives.  My only advice is to read the
> manuals first, I
> have a collection of oddball drives and motors in my stash
> from before
> I figured this out.
> Eric Keller
> 
> --
> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the
> benefits have been 
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are
> replacing JEE 
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what
> you can gain 
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[andy pugh]

On 22 April 2011 21:18, Eric Keller  wrote:

> I
> have a collection of oddball drives and motors in my stash from before
> I figured this out.

I had a few, but I have managed to get them all spinning now as part
of the "bldc" component debugging. One potentially useful feature it
has is the ability to take one Hall pattern as input and output a
different pattern (for example 60 deg in and 120 deg out). So, there
will still be a lot of futzing about to be done, but there is a tool
there to futz about with.

-- 
atp
"Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Eric Keller]

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 3:54 PM, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>
> I think part of the problem is if you just have bare brushless motors its
> not likely you will have a plug-and-play solution unless you have the
> matching drives, as most AC servo motors are produced to work with a
> specific driver, and running them with a generic controller _will_ involve
> some futzing about. If you want to avoid this, the best solution is to
> purchase a drive/motor combination.

I agree.  Most commercial drives will drive other manufacturers
motors, but it's not an easy task.  I have had some experience with
integrating motors, and it's really difficult to avoid learning way
too much about someone else's software, and you usually end up with an
oscilloscope hooked up to your motor spinning it by hand.  There are
brushless servo drives that will take either step/dir or +/-10V.
Getting those to work with EMC is daunting enough.  If the project is
well-funded, it's not too hard to go on ebay and buy a matching set of
motors and drives.  My only advice is to read the manuals first, I
have a collection of oddball drives and motors in my stash from before
I figured this out.
Eric Keller

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Robert Pabon wrote:


Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:33:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Pabon 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

Peter, what kind of documentation is available to a complete novice like 
myself and where would I go to find it? I honestly haven't done much more 
than plug boards into slots or upgrade memory, I'm not afraid to tackle it, 
but I don't like going in blind and I think that is what gives me the most 
apprehension about using the Mesa products. Mesa seems to have a solid 
reputation but it is a little more than plug and play so the learning curve 
appears much steeper from the outside and anything that lessens the grade 
will certainly pave the way for new guys like me.


I think part of the problem is if you just have bare brushless motors its not 
likely you will have a plug-and-play solution unless you have the matching 
drives, as most AC servo motors are produced to work with a specific driver, 
and running them with a generic controller _will_ involve some futzing about. 
If you want to avoid this, the best solution is to purchase a drive/motor 
combination.





BTW, thanks everyone for your quick and insightful responses. The last 12 hours 
have provided a lot more information on EMC than the last several months of 
searching elsewhere!
Rob

--- On Fri, 4/22/11, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:


From: Peter C. Wallace 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 11:11 AM
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, andy pugh
wrote:


Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:55:59 +0100
From: andy pugh 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
     
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

On 22 April 2011 17:12, Eric Keller 

wrote:

Are you aware of anyone using the 8i20 in an EMC2

system?

Other than Andy We have some individual customers and OEMS
starting to use the
8I20, but I would want to have permission from them to
disclose who they are
on a public forum.

This is all fairly new and the smart serial FPGA firmware
that supports the
8I20 is now in a state of flux (Not to say that its all
fluxed up :-).
Basically we are adding support to a gaggle of new smart
serial I/O devices
(Remote isolated I/O, Pendant interface, remote TTL I/O)
and adding the
ability to start and stop channels individually.


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
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(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.


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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon]

Peter, what kind of documentation is available to a complete novice like myself 
and where would I go to find it? I honestly haven't done much more than plug 
boards into slots or upgrade memory, I'm not afraid to tackle it, but I don't 
like going in blind and I think that is what gives me the most apprehension 
about using the Mesa products. Mesa seems to have a solid reputation but it is 
a little more than plug and play so the learning curve appears much steeper 
from the outside and anything that lessens the grade will certainly pave the 
way for new guys like me. 

BTW, thanks everyone for your quick and insightful responses. The last 12 hours 
have provided a lot more information on EMC than the last several months of 
searching elsewhere!
Rob

--- On Fri, 4/22/11, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> From: Peter C. Wallace 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 11:11 AM
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, andy pugh
> wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:55:59 +0100
> > From: andy pugh 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >     
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> > 
> > On 22 April 2011 17:12, Eric Keller 
> wrote:
> >>Are you aware of anyone using the 8i20 in an EMC2
> system?
> 
> Other than Andy We have some individual customers and OEMS
> starting to use the 
> 8I20, but I would want to have permission from them to
> disclose who they are 
> on a public forum.
> 
> This is all fairly new and the smart serial FPGA firmware
> that supports the 
> 8I20 is now in a state of flux (Not to say that its all
> fluxed up :-). 
> Basically we are adding support to a gaggle of new smart
> serial I/O devices 
> (Remote isolated I/O, Pendant interface, remote TTL I/O)
> and adding the 
> ability to start and stop channels individually.
> 
> 
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
> 
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
> 
> 
> --
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> benefits have been 
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are
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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, andy pugh wrote:

> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:55:59 +0100
> From: andy pugh 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> 
> On 22 April 2011 17:12, Eric Keller  wrote:
>>Are you aware of anyone using the 8i20 in an EMC2 system?

Other than Andy We have some individual customers and OEMS starting to use the 
8I20, but I would want to have permission from them to disclose who they are 
on a public forum.

This is all fairly new and the smart serial FPGA firmware that supports the 
8I20 is now in a state of flux (Not to say that its all fluxed up :-). 
Basically we are adding support to a gaggle of new smart serial I/O devices 
(Remote isolated I/O, Pendant interface, remote TTL I/O) and adding the 
ability to start and stop channels individually.


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[andy pugh]

On 22 April 2011 17:12, Eric Keller  wrote:

> Where does the motor feedback enter the system with an 8i20?  I just
> scanned the manual, and I didn't really see a diagram.

Typically the Hall sensors and the encoder counts would be connected
to the "bldc" HAL component.
Then when the motor is first moved it will be controlled trapezoidally
until the first Hall transition, at which point the bldc component has
enough information about the relationship between the encoder counts
and the motor rotor angle to start commutating sinusoidally.

>   Are you aware of anyone using the 8i20 in an EMC2 system?

Yes, I am. (I had to write the 8i20 driver and the bldc component to
do so, and documentation is a bit sparse, but it works)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LvdrHvGxJ8

The eagle-eyed will spot that there is no feedback back from that
motor, and it is in fact running as a sort of many-times
microstepping, 6-step-per-rev stepper motor in the video. I do now
have it working properly using my Resolver convertor and the bldc
component in proper closed-loop PID control. It has even moved my mill
knee. (but only down…)

-- 
atp
"Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[James Louis]

Example wiring diagrams from EMC2 supported hardware vendors is always a 
welcomed addition to a website.  That's just my opinion...

- Original Message -
From: Peter C. Wallace 
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Sent: Fri Apr 22 11:20:15 2011
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Eric Keller wrote:

> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:12:43 -0400
> From: Eric Keller 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>>
>> As far as servo motors go there is no real difference between AC and BLDC, 
>> all
>> brushless servo motors are "AC", that is 3 phase AC driven synchronous motors
>> with permanent magnet rotors. The 8I20 (and the 7I39) are intended for 
>> driving
>> this class of motor. There is sometimes a slight difference in pole shaping
>> for optimization with different drive waveforms (sine or trapeziodal) but if
>> you look at motor data sheets you will find that pretty much all brushless
>> servo motors will work fine with sine wave drive.
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>
> Peter,
> Where does the motor feedback enter the system with an 8i20?  I just
> scanned the manual, and I didn't really see a diagram.  Are you aware
> of anyone using the 8i20 in an EMC2 system?
> Thanks
> Eric Keller

The 8I20 is just the drive portion (a current amplifier = torque mode drive)
it gets its feedback via encoders from EMC


>
> --
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> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are replacing JEE
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what you can gain
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Eric Keller wrote:

> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:12:43 -0400
> From: Eric Keller 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> 
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>>
>> As far as servo motors go there is no real difference between AC and BLDC, 
>> all
>> brushless servo motors are "AC", that is 3 phase AC driven synchronous motors
>> with permanent magnet rotors. The 8I20 (and the 7I39) are intended for 
>> driving
>> this class of motor. There is sometimes a slight difference in pole shaping
>> for optimization with different drive waveforms (sine or trapeziodal) but if
>> you look at motor data sheets you will find that pretty much all brushless
>> servo motors will work fine with sine wave drive.
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>
> Peter,
> Where does the motor feedback enter the system with an 8i20?  I just
> scanned the manual, and I didn't really see a diagram.  Are you aware
> of anyone using the 8i20 in an EMC2 system?
> Thanks
> Eric Keller

The 8I20 is just the drive portion (a current amplifier = torque mode drive) 
it gets its feedback via encoders from EMC


>
> --
> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the benefits have been
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are replacing JEE
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what you can gain
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
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>

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Eric Keller]

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>
> As far as servo motors go there is no real difference between AC and BLDC, all
> brushless servo motors are "AC", that is 3 phase AC driven synchronous motors
> with permanent magnet rotors. The 8I20 (and the 7I39) are intended for driving
> this class of motor. There is sometimes a slight difference in pole shaping
> for optimization with different drive waveforms (sine or trapeziodal) but if
> you look at motor data sheets you will find that pretty much all brushless
> servo motors will work fine with sine wave drive.
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics

Peter,
Where does the motor feedback enter the system with an 8i20?  I just
scanned the manual, and I didn't really see a diagram.  Are you aware
of anyone using the 8i20 in an EMC2 system?
Thanks
Eric Keller

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Robert Pabon @ Corse USA wrote:

> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 07:43:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Robert Pabon @ Corse USA" 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> 
> Thanks andy< I sent out my motor feedback specs with another email and will 
> try to keep the information brief so I don't become redundant. I was looking 
> at the Mesa amps and it looks like only the 7I39 is a BLDC amp, the 8I20 
> appears to be AC (although granites VSD will run AC and BLDC, so maybe it 
> can, I don't know). I am trying to keep this as dumb and generic as possible 
> for a couple of reasons (parts sourcing and finding help) so I am trying to 
> stick with what has been more or less proven. Rob

As far as servo motors go there is no real difference between AC and BLDC, all 
brushless servo motors are "AC", that is 3 phase AC driven synchronous motors 
with permanent magnet rotors. The 8I20 (and the 7I39) are intended for driving 
this class of motor. There is sometimes a slight difference in pole shaping 
for optimization with different drive waveforms (sine or trapeziodal) but if 
you look at motor data sheets you will find that pretty much all brushless 
servo motors will work fine with sine wave drive.

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon @ Corse USA]

Thanks andy< I sent out my motor feedback specs with another email and will try 
to keep the information brief so I don't become redundant. I was looking at the 
Mesa amps and it looks like only the 7I39 is a BLDC amp, the 8I20 appears to be 
AC (although granites VSD will run AC and BLDC, so maybe it can, I don't know).
I am trying to keep this as dumb and generic as possible for a couple of 
reasons (parts sourcing and finding help) so I am trying to stick with what has 
been more or less proven.
Rob

--- On Fri, 4/22/11, andy pugh  wrote:

> From: andy pugh 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 6:08 AM
> On 22 April 2011 05:11, Robert Pabon
> @ Corse USA
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > But I don't know much about motion control cards. How
> generic are these things in terms of pairing them to servo
> amps?
> 
> If the servo amps take a +/- 10V signal then there are a
> number of
> ways to control them with EMC2.
> Be aware that not all amps work with all motors, though.
> There are a
> number of possible feedback systems, some rather
> proprietary. Even a
> simple three hall sensors system can be set up in a variety
> of ways.
> (There are 48 possible combinations, but only a few are
> actually used
> in practice).
> 
> >  about software, if I buy something like a galil card
> on ebay will I need driver software and is that available
> somewhere?
> 
> Much better to buy something from the "supported hardware"
> list.
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
> 
> The "EMC2 Way" is to use dumb hardware and do the
> calculations and
> feedback in the PC. You could use step-direction servo
> drives as
> suggested earlier, but that rather goes against this, as
> you need to
> do the tuning in the drive (and often with a Windows-only
> special
> utility).
> Both the Pico and Mesa systems fit this paradigm, but so
> does any
> driver controlled in torque-mode by an analogue or PWM
> signal output
> by EMC2. If the motors have tachos and the drives are
> velocity mode,
> though, it is probably best to use them that way.
> 
> > I have thought about the Mesa cards, but I honestly
> don't know what all I would need to buy or what I would
> > need to configure one.
> 
> It depends on your motors' voltage and current
> requirements. Mesa do
> at least two drives for Brushless motors, the 7i39 and 8i20
> (just
> Google them)
> 
> There is an EMC2 software component that can take almost
> any form of
> motor feedback and convert it to almost any form of
> amplifier drive.
> 
> It is a complicated subject. I started to write a Wiki page
> to try to
> clarify it all, but got distracted.
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?BLDC
> 
> -- 
> atp
> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the
> guidance of wise men"
> 
> --
> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the
> benefits have been 
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are
> replacing JEE 
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what
> you can gain 
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[Robert Pabon @ Corse USA]

John, the motor is a brush-less DC fitted with a 2000ppr quadrature encoder 
with 120degree hall feedback. The commutation format is three channels, 4 
cycles/360 electrical angle for eight poles. The motor is rated for up to a 
300V DC bus which I would like to maximize to be able to use gear reduction and 
improve torque. Peak current draw is pretty low (<4 amps at stall) so I don't 
need a huge amp. Unfortunately Gecko doesn't make anything in the brush-less 
variety. So I have been scouring ebay for amps and drives to try and find 
something that will fit my needs at a reasonable cost but I also want to keep 
the motion controller in mind when buying. 
Rob

--- On Fri, 4/22/11, James Louis  wrote:

> From: James Louis 
> Subject: RE: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> To: "robertpa...@corseusa.com" , "Enhanced Machine 
> Controller (EMC)" 
> Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 5:13 AM
> Rob,
> It seems that your choice of amplifier model is going to
> determine your choice of EMC2 supported controller.  I
> recently completed building a CNC mill using an Intel D510MO
> and Jon's Pico Systems PPMC board set, which was used
> because my amplifiers required a +/- 10VDC analog velocity
> input and my servo motors had a quadrature encoder
> output.  It is working great now, but it was not easy
> finding information regarding servo loops and tuning. 
> In spite of this however I am happy with my controller
> choice, and Jon was very supportive throughout the build.
> You didn't say if your motors had encoders, but Gecko makes
> very reliable drives.  They all have Step/Direction
> type command inputs.  I recommend that you work
> backward from the sample configurations listed on the
> startup screen of your EMC2 installation.  For closed
> loop systems your choices are fairly narrow, which actually
> makes it easier!
> Good Luck.
> Jim
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Pabon @ Corse USA [mailto:robertpa...@corseusa.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 11:11 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: [Emc-users] Motion control cards
> 
> Hello everyone! This is my first posting to the list so
> forgive any newbie faux paus (sp?).
> 
> Anyway I have never used EMC and am looking at doing my
> first EMC build (lathe retrofit). My first build was an
> AjaxCNC "kit" so this is my first true build where I am
> sourcing all the parts and learning along the way. I am
> learning quite a bit, but there is a huge gap in knowledge
> before I am anywhere near where I need to be. A plan to use
> Brushless DC servos ad have begun trying to find suitable
> amps and all the rest of the necessary hardware to get the
> system up and running. So I am looking at motion control
> cards at the moment and need to get some information. The
> brushless DC motors added a layer of complexity that I
> hadn't had to deal with with my previous build since
> everything was brushed DC. So I have been doing a lot of
> reading on motors, commutation, amps and drivers and think
> that I am starting to sort things out a bit. But I don't
> know much about motion control cards. How generic are these
> things in terms of pairing them to servo amps? What
>  about software, if I buy something like a galil card on
> ebay will I need driver software and is that available
> somewhere? I know that Pico makes a 4 axis board, but after
> a posting on the linux forum Jon made me a bit hesitant on
> using his board with these motors because he had some
> trouble in the past. I don't know if that is a motor
> problem, a amp problem or a motion controller problem but
> I'd hate to find out by  buying all the components only
> to have it not work out.
> I have thought about the Mesa cards, but I honestly don't
> know what all I would need to buy or what I would need to
> configure one. I haven't really found a resource that
> outlines the process for using a mesa card in the
> applications.
> So what does the collective wisdom have to offer? What are
> my options in terms of motion control. Affordability is a
> high priority, but performance is also important. I am
> willing to put up with some learning curve, but I don't want
> to forge new ground completely since I don't have the
> skillset to support that.
> Thanks,
> Rob
> 
> --
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> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the
> benefits have been
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are
> replacing JEE
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what
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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[John Thornton]

A common Mesa setup is a 5i20 + 7i33TA + 7i37TA. I've used that for two 
conversions so far. The 5i20 plugs into your pci slot and the daughter 
cards use a 50 pin ribbon cable. The 7i33TA is a quad analog servo 
interface and the 7i37TA is an I/O card. you can have up to three 
daughter cards with a 5i20.

John

Robert Pabon @ Corse USA wrote:
> I have thought about the Mesa cards, but I honestly don't know what all I 
> would need to buy or what I would need to configure one. I haven't really 
> found a resource that outlines the process for using a mesa card in the 
> applications.
> So what does the collective wisdom have to offer? What are my options in 
> terms of motion control. Affordability is a high priority, but performance is 
> also important. I am willing to put up with some learning curve, but I don't 
> want to forge new ground completely since I don't have the skillset to 
> support that.
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
> --
> Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
> Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the benefits have been
> demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are replacing JEE
> containers with lightweight application servers - and what you can gain
> from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[andy pugh]

On 22 April 2011 05:11, Robert Pabon @ Corse USA
 wrote:

> But I don't know much about motion control cards. How generic are these 
> things in terms of pairing them to servo amps?

If the servo amps take a +/- 10V signal then there are a number of
ways to control them with EMC2.
Be aware that not all amps work with all motors, though. There are a
number of possible feedback systems, some rather proprietary. Even a
simple three hall sensors system can be set up in a variety of ways.
(There are 48 possible combinations, but only a few are actually used
in practice).

>  about software, if I buy something like a galil card on ebay will I need 
> driver software and is that available somewhere?

Much better to buy something from the "supported hardware" list.
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware

The "EMC2 Way" is to use dumb hardware and do the calculations and
feedback in the PC. You could use step-direction servo drives as
suggested earlier, but that rather goes against this, as you need to
do the tuning in the drive (and often with a Windows-only special
utility).
Both the Pico and Mesa systems fit this paradigm, but so does any
driver controlled in torque-mode by an analogue or PWM signal output
by EMC2. If the motors have tachos and the drives are velocity mode,
though, it is probably best to use them that way.

> I have thought about the Mesa cards, but I honestly don't know what all I 
> would need to buy or what I would
> need to configure one.

It depends on your motors' voltage and current requirements. Mesa do
at least two drives for Brushless motors, the 7i39 and 8i20 (just
Google them)

There is an EMC2 software component that can take almost any form of
motor feedback and convert it to almost any form of amplifier drive.

It is a complicated subject. I started to write a Wiki page to try to
clarify it all, but got distracted.
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?BLDC

-- 
atp
"Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"

--
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demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are replacing JEE 
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Re: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

[James Louis]

Rob,
It seems that your choice of amplifier model is going to determine your choice 
of EMC2 supported controller.  I recently completed building a CNC mill using 
an Intel D510MO and Jon's Pico Systems PPMC board set, which was used because 
my amplifiers required a +/- 10VDC analog velocity input and my servo motors 
had a quadrature encoder output.  It is working great now, but it was not easy 
finding information regarding servo loops and tuning.  In spite of this however 
I am happy with my controller choice, and Jon was very supportive throughout 
the build.
You didn't say if your motors had encoders, but Gecko makes very reliable 
drives.  They all have Step/Direction type command inputs.  I recommend that 
you work backward from the sample configurations listed on the startup screen 
of your EMC2 installation.  For closed loop systems your choices are fairly 
narrow, which actually makes it easier!
Good Luck.
Jim

-Original Message-
From: Robert Pabon @ Corse USA [mailto:robertpa...@corseusa.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 11:11 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Emc-users] Motion control cards

Hello everyone! This is my first posting to the list so forgive any newbie faux 
paus (sp?).

Anyway I have never used EMC and am looking at doing my first EMC build (lathe 
retrofit). My first build was an AjaxCNC "kit" so this is my first true build 
where I am sourcing all the parts and learning along the way. I am learning 
quite a bit, but there is a huge gap in knowledge before I am anywhere near 
where I need to be. A plan to use Brushless DC servos ad have begun trying to 
find suitable amps and all the rest of the necessary hardware to get the system 
up and running. So I am looking at motion control cards at the moment and need 
to get some information. The brushless DC motors added a layer of complexity 
that I hadn't had to deal with with my previous build since everything was 
brushed DC. So I have been doing a lot of reading on motors, commutation, amps 
and drivers and think that I am starting to sort things out a bit. But I don't 
know much about motion control cards. How generic are these things in terms of 
pairing them to servo amps? What
 about software, if I buy something like a galil card on ebay will I need 
driver software and is that available somewhere? I know that Pico makes a 4 
axis board, but after a posting on the linux forum Jon made me a bit hesitant 
on using his board with these motors because he had some trouble in the past. I 
don't know if that is a motor problem, a amp problem or a motion controller 
problem but I'd hate to find out by  buying all the components only to have it 
not work out.
I have thought about the Mesa cards, but I honestly don't know what all I would 
need to buy or what I would need to configure one. I haven't really found a 
resource that outlines the process for using a mesa card in the applications.
So what does the collective wisdom have to offer? What are my options in terms 
of motion control. Affordability is a high priority, but performance is also 
important. I am willing to put up with some learning curve, but I don't want to 
forge new ground completely since I don't have the skillset to support that.
Thanks,
Rob

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Fulfilling the Lean Software Promise
Lean software platforms are now widely adopted and the benefits have been 
demonstrated beyond question. Learn why your peers are replacing JEE 
containers with lightweight application servers - and what you can gain 
from the move. http://p.sf.net/sfu/vmware-sfemails
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