Re: [EVDL] Cybertruck

[paul dove via EV]

Wow! Why do you hate Tesla so much. Yes it is all innovative. They were able to 
remove 3.5 miles of wire. The change to Ethernet was necessary to get FSD 
advances because of latencies using CAN. They reduced all the ECUs to 4 
regional ones making all the wire funds shorter. There are videos out there 
that detail the changes and the advantages and I suggest you watch them.


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On Saturday, October 5, 2024, 5:17 PM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 5 Oct 2024 at 17:36, Danny Ames via EV wrote:

> revolutionary 48 volt replacing ancient 12 volt tech 

I'm not so sure that it's that novel.  We were discussing proposed 42 volt 
automotive electircal systems on this list about 30 years ago.  Maybe 
someone else will remember why it didn't catch on back then.

The advantages of higher voltage have been clear for a long time.  That's 
why the automakers raised system voltage from 6 to 12 volts in the 1950s.  

> or drive by wire steering 

I don't see the advantage, and lots of safety downsides, but you can try to 
convince me.  

> or never rust super strong SS body 

Stainless steel auto bodies are nothing new. Ford experimented with SS as 
early as the 1930s.. Don't forget the Delorean in 1981.  

SS is kind of a lousy material for auto bodies.  It's too rigid to make 
proper crumple zones, and it's the devil to form.  From what I've read, the 
CT is made of it not because it has significant advantages, but because Elon 
Musk thought it would look cool and edgy.

An advanced EV body won't be made of stainless steel.  For a better idea, 
look here:

https://www.sunrise-ev.com/original.htm

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] How to ruin your EV's Battery - LFP edition.

[paul dove via EV]

Do what Tesla recommends and don’t do what you read on forums.


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On Saturday, August 24, 2024, 3:40 PM, Ken Olum via EV  
wrote:

Interesting.  What if you have NCA batteries, which seem to be what is
in older Teslas?

I guess I've been doing the wrong thing, because I've never charged to
100%.  It doesn't give any more range than 98%, unless you always start
by driving on the highway or up a hill, because you don't get regen.

A good reason to leave Teslas plugged in is that they use a lot of
energy when you're not driving.  Maybe the equivalent of two miles in 24
hours.  So if you leave your Tesla unplugged for too long you may have
an unpleasant surprise.  (In my case, even though the car is plugged in
it drains the battery for this idle draw, then recharges it every couple
days.  That does not seem right to me.)

                                        Ken
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[paul dove via EV]

Most EVSE and cars already have that option 


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On Friday, July 26, 2024, 9:23 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:

Stupid arguments on both sides, but it did get me thinking..

Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a software 
option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during daylight hours to 
use a greater percentage of solar?    When you have a lot of unused range 
anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during the night..you can 
just delay until the sun comes up.    

Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power 
considerations.

    On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
    On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg. 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[paul dove via EV]

 I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg. 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] DC motor isolation issues

[paul dove via EV]

If it’s a brushed motor the dust can cause a fault. You need to clean it all 
real good and replace the brushes.


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On Saturday, July 20, 2024, 6:19 PM, John Lussmyer via EV  
wrote:

So, I've been able to trace my current weird Zilla issues down to (most 
likely) a pack Isolation fault.
I was able to measure a 9ma fault from Pack - to 12v -.
After a lot of physical contortions (I'm nowhere NEAR as flexible as I 
was when I built this thing), I was able to disconnect the motors from 
the Zilla - and the isolation fault went away.

Now trying to figure out HOW to clear the fault in the motors.
Any suggestions?
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Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Zilla2K

[paul dove via EV]

Yes.


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On Sunday, June 30, 2024, 10:10 AM, John Lussmyer via EV  
wrote:

Anyone have a spare Zilla2K EHV for sale?
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Re: [EVDL] Creaky Tesla Y front end at 94K miles

[paul dove via EV]

I love how people assume Elon is behind every decision made at Tesla. You must 
think he is Superman or you never really ran anything yourself. 


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On Sunday, June 23, 2024, 6:09 PM, Bobby Keeland via EV  
wrote:

Tesla has been aware of the problem problem with the upper steering
component for years. It is called a product design problem, but they
stilled charged me to replace it with a new unit.

Because the problem is a known issue that is not just wear and tear it
seems to me that Tesla should replace this faulty part without charge.
Unfortunately Elon Musk wants to have a lot more billions of dollars in his
bank accounts rather than repair problems that are caused by Tesla designed
parts that are known to be faulty.

Bobby Keeland
Arnaudville, Louisiana

On Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 12:23 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> It's usually the upper that causes this.  It's available over-the-counter
> at Tesla service for $90, Part number 1044321-00-J.  Installation is
> pretty easy, anyone can do it with basic hand tools.  In my opinion, You
> don't need an alignment if you are just replacing the upper, as long as you
> mark the bracket bolts (as show in the video):
>
> https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelY/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-B9D351E6-14AE-4EF7-A99E-F4E822047690.html
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 10:29 AM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi folks
> > I have a 2021 Tesla Y 94k miles that the front right creaks in slow turns
> > and bumps. The great god google shows some replacing the upper/lower
> > control arms, about $500 from the stealership. Maybe a shock?  Just
> curious
> > if anyone has stumbled into it and where to get Tesla Y parts.
> > Best regards
> > Mark in Roanoke Va
> > Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Troglodyte Toyta

[paul dove via EV]

Thanks looks like a good book. 
Here’s an even shorter answer.
https://www.google.com/search?q=goddard+space+flight+center+climate+change+co2&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#
 


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On Sunday, June 23, 2024, 3:45 PM, jamie via EV  wrote:


Here's a useful 10 minute resource that sums up climate basics, "The 
World's Littlest Book on Climate":

https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Littlest-Book-Climate-Minutes/dp/B08KQ64VCG/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.RvphXZzi81rV_n017Qz78nJmSCR3ZvsMDxycPZ3B9kU.ti8GSedFc9KTxJlGtZfuzEZ5l0tNb5GLab2snPTG00o&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+world%27s+littlest+book+on+climate&qid=1719104617&sr=8-1


On 6/22/24 1:31 PM, David Heacock via EV wrote:
>  Okay, just to throw more fossil fuel on the fire, does CO2 cause warming or 
>does warming cause CO2?  Please don't quote the lame stream news.  And, If CO2 
>is bad should we set the goal to 0 ppm in the atmosphere?
> Don't get me wrong, I am a very big fan of EVs and if I get my Aptera I hope 
> to almost never buy any more gasoline or charge from the grid.  I'm almost 
> one step away from being almost self sufficient when it comes to the grid and 
> the constant increases in energy bills and possible shut downs when our grid 
> gets hacked.
>      On Saturday, June 22, 2024 at 06:50:22 AM PDT, paul dove 
> wrote:
>  
>    The global warming contributor is CO2. A lot of countries put a tax on 
>manufacturers who produce products that release CO2.
> That is what carbon neutral means no CO2 emissions.
> 
> 
>      On Saturday, June 22, 2024 at 08:43:53 AM CDT, David Heacock via EV 
> wrote:
>  
>    Cool.  I always thought the idea was to reduce or eliminate the 
>"pollutants" coming out the tail pipe?  Is there now only one acceptable way 
>to do that?
> I remember not so long ago a podcast from Europe where the big EV fan guy was 
> saying Aptera's petition to have a standardized plug like the Tesla plug, was 
> a stupid idea.  Hum, how did that work out?
> Just sayin,   .
>      On Friday, June 21, 2024 at 03:49:32 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>  
>  Toyota just can't let go of their ICEs.  Their friends at Subaru and Mazda
> can't either.
> 
> I'm sure you're surprised.
> 
> https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60939372/toyota-subaru-mazda-hybrid-engine-
> collaboration/
> 
> or https://v.gd/i5CaA1
> 
> Check out the photo of the human dinosaurs standing behind their beloved
> ICEs, in all their fiddly complexity.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
>      I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe.
> 
>                          -- Vern, "Over the Hedge"
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Troglodyte Toyta

[paul dove via EV]

Yes, CO2 is a greenhouse gas which causes warming, 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, June 22, 2024, 2:33 PM, David Heacock  wrote:

 Okay, just to throw more fossil fuel on the fire, does CO2 cause warming or 
does warming cause CO2?  Please don't quote the lame stream news.  And, If CO2 
is bad should we set the goal to 0 ppm in the atmosphere?  
Don't get me wrong, I am a very big fan of EVs and if I get my Aptera I hope to 
almost never buy any more gasoline or charge from the grid.  I'm almost one 
step away from being almost self sufficient when it comes to the grid and the 
constant increases in energy bills and possible shut downs when our grid gets 
hacked.    
On Saturday, June 22, 2024 at 06:50:22 AM PDT, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  The global warming contributor is CO2. A lot of countries put a tax on 
manufacturers who produce products that release CO2.
That is what carbon neutral means no CO2 emissions.


On Saturday, June 22, 2024 at 08:43:53 AM CDT, David Heacock via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  Cool.  I always thought the idea was to reduce or eliminate the "pollutants" 
coming out the tail pipe?  Is there now only one acceptable way to do that?  
I remember not so long ago a podcast from Europe where the big EV fan guy was 
saying Aptera's petition to have a standardized plug like the Tesla plug, was a 
stupid idea.  Hum, how did that work out?
Just sayin,   .  
    On Friday, June 21, 2024 at 03:49:32 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Toyota just can't let go of their ICEs.  Their friends at Subaru and Mazda 
can't either.  

I'm sure you're surprised.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60939372/toyota-subaru-mazda-hybrid-engine-
collaboration/

or https://v.gd/i5CaA1

Check out the photo of the human dinosaurs standing behind their beloved 
ICEs, in all their fiddly complexity.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe. 

                        -- Vern, "Over the Hedge" 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Troglodyte Toyta

[paul dove via EV]

 The global warming contributor is CO2. A lot of countries put a tax on 
manufacturers who produce products that release CO2.
That is what carbon neutral means no CO2 emissions.


On Saturday, June 22, 2024 at 08:43:53 AM CDT, David Heacock via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  Cool.  I always thought the idea was to reduce or eliminate the "pollutants" 
coming out the tail pipe?  Is there now only one acceptable way to do that?  
I remember not so long ago a podcast from Europe where the big EV fan guy was 
saying Aptera's petition to have a standardized plug like the Tesla plug, was a 
stupid idea.  Hum, how did that work out?
Just sayin,   .  
    On Friday, June 21, 2024 at 03:49:32 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Toyota just can't let go of their ICEs.  Their friends at Subaru and Mazda 
can't either.  

I'm sure you're surprised.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60939372/toyota-subaru-mazda-hybrid-engine-
collaboration/

or https://v.gd/i5CaA1

Check out the photo of the human dinosaurs standing behind their beloved 
ICEs, in all their fiddly complexity.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe. 

                        -- Vern, "Over the Hedge" 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Contactor recomendations?

[paul dove via EV]

Thanks, not debating just commenting to what he said. 600A is over the rating 
for the part.
Maybe it’s not the issue but I would get a higher rated part.

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, June 13, 2024, 12:54 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:

Paul,
The datasheet does not show any info about short term current limit
versus long term, but rest assured that at that voltage you will never
draw 600A very long and the average current draw will be closer to 50
Amps so there is plenty opportunity for the contactors to cool down if
you ever did a long steep hill climb at maximum throttle for whatever
reason.
My S10 also has a 360V pack and on flat road doing 55 the draw is 40
Amps continuous.
No, the max current is unlikely to be the cause of the fails. More
likely a failing or insufficient pre-charge.
Cor.

On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 7:51 AM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>
>  It is only rated for 500A
> https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1618387-5.datasheet.pdf
>
>    On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 11:47:49 PM CDT, John Lussmyer via EV 
> wrote:
>
>  One of the contactors in my truck is failing.  It's one of the white
> ones (LEV200 I think).
> These don't seem to last more than a year or two in my truck.
>
> I run a 350v pack, and limit battery draw to 600A - and rarely pull that
> much.
>
> Any suggestions for a more reliable unit?
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Re: [EVDL] Contactor recomendations?

[paul dove via EV]

 It is only rated for 500A
https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1618387-5.datasheet.pdf

On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 11:47:49 PM CDT, John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 One of the contactors in my truck is failing.  It's one of the white 
ones (LEV200 I think).
These don't seem to last more than a year or two in my truck.

I run a 350v pack, and limit battery draw to 600A - and rarely pull that 
much.

Any suggestions for a more reliable unit?
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

The president doesn’t have that kind of power. Congress is in charge of budget. 
I work for the government. The way congress makes you write a contract ties the 
government workers hands in many cases. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, May 6, 2024, 10:40 PM, John Lussmyer via EV  
wrote:

On 5/6/2024 8:35 PM, David Heacock via EV wrote:
>  Let's make Elon the Vice President under Trump and have him in charge of 
>eliminating waste in our government. Can you even imagine how our country 
>would benefit?  Just give him two years.  Just sayin.
>
No Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Health care, EPA, 
Consumer Protection - or any other thing that directly benefits 
individual citizens.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

Sure, sounds logical but the car would have prevented it is the argument. Not 
saying who’s right because it’s never happened to me but it’s very hard to 
resist intervention when the cars in control IME. It’s never messed up with me 
but it sometimes waits longer than I am comfortable with before reacting.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, May 5, 2024, 12:05 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
wrote:

Why wouldn't you disengage the autopilot if it was trying to kill you?... 
...then you get blamed for the accident if you can't prevent it? 

    On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 05:43:25 AM PDT, Ken Olum via EV 
 wrote:  
 
   From: paul dove 
  Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 16:02:36 + (UTC)

  >From what I've read it's more often the driver who intervenes and shuts down 
Autopilot thus causing the accident.

  Tesla keeps track of anyone actually cares.
  
https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-mobile.jpg

The problem with this data is that it doesn't control for the conditions
in which drivers do and don't use autopilot.  One explanation for a
lower crash rate with autopilot on would be that drivers use it in
situations where accidents are less likely.

                                        Ken
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

From what I’ve read it’s more often the driver who intervenes and shuts down 
Autopilot thus causing the accident. 
Tesla keeps track of anyone actually cares.
https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-mobile.jpg


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On Saturday, May 4, 2024, 9:16 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

I would love to have FSD. Clearly not in it's correct state but when the risk 
of death from an accident is less than the risk if an attentive human were in 
control.

Currently, FSD seems to do very well. Musk is probably right that it reduces 
accidents overall. But most accidents don't kill the occupants, so i discount 
that metric. When FSD fails, it does so catastrophically. A human might not 
avoid the final impact but most likely will brake hard and reduce the collision.

Peri

From: Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 05:29
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lawrence Winiarski; EV List Lackey
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid topic 
for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor plumbing, 
but what do insurance companies say?   Do they give a rate reduction for self 
driving cars?
Personally, I'm too cheap to be on the bleeding edge and even then I would 
postpone it and till the death rate gets down, but the fact is I'm managing a 
0% death rate so far (knock on wood) so it'llbe hard to beat that, and I've 
always had a thing about controlling my own destiny.
   On Friday, May 3, 2024 at 08:24:31 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote: 
Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company. 
  
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

You think death is what insurance companies care about when it costs $3000 to 
get a bumper repaired. A large percentage of people would be better off with 
self driving cars. Then they could look at their phone without consequences 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, May 3, 2024, 11:29 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
wrote:

Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid topic 
for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor plumbing, 
but what do insurance companies say?   Do they give a rate reduction for self 
driving cars?
Personally, I'm too cheap to be on the bleeding edge and even then I would 
postpone it and till the death rate gets down, but the fact is I'm managing a 
0% death rate so far (knock on wood) so it'llbe hard to beat that, and I've 
always had a thing about controlling my own destiny.

  On Friday, May 3, 2024 at 08:24:31 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  

Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company.  


  
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

I am with you John but at some point they take away your license. What then? 
Friend, relatives, taxi, bus? A self driving car could allow independence 
longer.


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On Friday, May 3, 2024, 11:42 PM, John Lussmyer via EV  
wrote:

On 5/3/2024 9:29 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
> care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid 
> topic for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor 
> plumbing, but what do insurance companies say?  

I want it to be available within the next 10 years.
I want to be able to continue being independent - even when my 
eyesight/reaction times are no longer good enough to drive.
I don't live in a city.  I live out in the country, with significant 
drives to just about anything.


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla as a business

[paul dove via EV]

Well, awesome news mining but I’m more of a try the product kind of person. 
Best product in any category I ever owned. In 5 years, I have done nothing but 
charge it and buy tires. Their product bar none is the best I’ve ever owned.



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On Friday, May 3, 2024, 5:45 PM, Rush via EV  wrote:

I own some Tesla Stock and so follow what the business world says about Tesla.
I'm not at all interested in a pi**ing contest to see who is more adept at
presenting facts/comments about an EV or leadership of an EV company, but in the
interests of a balanced view I've gathered some comments from my news feeds :

 

- Tesla has an unmatched autonomous driving technology. It is expected to start
aggressive global expansion by the end of 2024, which will disrupt the whole
automotive industry.

- Tesla's FSD technology could potentially be licensed to local automotive
manufacturers, further solidifying its position in the autonomous driving
market.

- Tesla, Inc.'s stock has underperformed the market over the last quarter, but
investors should understand that it is a long-term play characterized by
substantial short-term volatility.

- While new ventures and investments in innovation are inherently risky, Tesla's
$27 billion cash pile, together with almost no debt [compared to the company's
market cap], suggests that the company likely has sufficient financial resources
to fuel its ambitious plans to ramp up and maintain a firm commitment to
innovation.

- My bullish view on Tesla is driven by its brilliant pricing strategy, its
clear category vision, and the launch of the Model 2, code-named Redwood. I
anticipate the Model 2 will be a simplified version of Tesla's Model 3, priced
around $30,000. In the current car market, with an average new car in the U.S.
selling at $48,000, this price tag is competitive to challenge most internal
combustion engine (ICE) and hybrid vehicles. I expect it will also significantly
accelerate the mass adoption of electric vehicles ((EVs)).

 

So while some EV proponents take Musk's politics personally, the business world
sees Tesla as an opportunity, both financially and as a boon to EV's
domestically and world wide.

 

Best regards,

 

Rush Dougherty

TucsonEV

 

 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

 Amen!
On Wednesday, May 1, 2024 at 08:04:32 AM CDT, Rush via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 David -

Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming. I think that it is
actually very counterproductive to the EV world. It seems to me that you're
engaging in partisan politics, and that by continuously denigrating Tesla and
Elon Musk at every turn you are promoting hatred which as I understand is
against the EVDL List Conventions.

You are the moderator of this list and as such should sent an example for the
rest of us. I think that a little moderation on your part is called for.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV


> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 4:55 PM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: EV List Lackey 
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments
>
> Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams:
>
> - Vehicle and new product development
>
> - EV charging
>
> - Public policy
>
> Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the
workforce
> (I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 major
> development teams and their directors.
>
> The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.
>
> As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with
> governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems to have
> bet their future on.
>
> This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I know?
>
> In more detail:
>
> 1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new product
> introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla since
2013.
>
> 2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid off her
entire
> team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.
>
> 3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development,
resigned
> earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public policy team.
>
> Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we need
to be
> absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on exec
staff
> are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so."
>
> Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of Tesla's
> other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of them.
>
> More info:
>
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on-
> superchargers-new-vehicles/
>
> or https://v.gd/lrDabh
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims-
> senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/
>
> or https://v.gd/YQoopg
>
> This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry standard,
Tesla
> doesn't really need to participate any more:
>
> https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs-
> throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil
>
> or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw
>
> -
>
> PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this makes
5 top
> brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure.
>
> In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor
relations,
> Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month, Senior Vice
President
> Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of engineering batteries and motors.
> He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.
>
> Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
address
> here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>      We have lived our lives by the assumption that what was good for
>      us would be good for the world. We must change our lives so that
>      it will be possible to live by the contrary assumption, that what
>      is good for the world will be good for us.
>
>                                                      -- Wendell Berry = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Rumor: Tesla abandons $25k EV?

[paul dove via EV]

If it’s rumor…. Why talk about it at all?


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On Friday, April 5, 2024, 9:35 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

Reuters is reporting that Tesla has suspended or cancelled its program to 
produce a low-cost EV, in favor of developing "robotaxis" instead.

Elon Musk posted on twitter that "Reuters is lying (again)," but didn't 
provide any specifics.

Reuters cited 3 anonymous sources inside Tesla.

"Two sources said they learned of Tesla's decision to scrap the Model 2 in a 
meeting attended by scores of employees, with one of them saying the 
gathering happened in late February ... The third source confirmed the 
cancellation and said new plans call for robotaxis to be produced, but in 
much lower volumes than had been projected for the Model 2."

I'm always skeptical when a news source won't or can't identify its sources, 
so it's probably better to classify this as a rumor for now.  

My own view, for what it's worth, which isn't much:

If this rumor turns out to be accurate, it could mean that Tesla is reducing 
its focus on sales growth for the sake of per-unit profit growth. That might 
also explain why Tesla has started raising its prices again.

It would put Tesla in the company of several traditional automakers that are 
abandoning or downplaying affordable vehicles in both EVs and ICEVs, 
essentially telling potential lower-income customers to get lost.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-scraps-low-cost-
car-plans-amid-fierce-chinese-ev-competition-2024-04-05/

or https://v.gd/i172zg

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.  

                                    -- Edward R Murrow 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The EV Pipeline to Eastern Europe

[paul dove via EV]

I don’t think it’s fear. It’s resale. Used EVs are cheap here so no reason to 
buy a wrecked one.


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On Monday, March 4, 2024, 3:18 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

Here's a story from late last year that just "crossed my desk."

The gist: 

US body shops seem to be scared of EVs, so an unusually large number of them 
are totaled after even minor collisions.  

Partly because of battery fears and partly from low demand for used repair 
parts*, recyclers don't see enough profit in EVs to keep them around.  So 
they're being shipped overseas, notably to Eastern Europe.  A lot are ending 
up in Ukraine, where repair shops aren't afraid to work on them.

The example the article uses is a Tesla Y, but a chart in the story shows 
that the largest number of totaled US EV models arriving in Ukraine in 
October 2023 were Nissan Leaves.

Chart:

https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/uk-ev.png

It's also interesting that the only *new* EVs imported to Ukraine in any 
real numbers that month were Volkswagen ID4s.

Full story:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-reincarnation-of-totalled-teslas-in-
ukraine/

Shortcut: https://v.gd/dCw1nJ

*I wonder if some of the reason for low used parts demand might be the 
automakers' programming their vehicles' computers to reject non-factory 
parts.  But that's pure speculation as I'm not an industry insider.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    Reporter (to Mahatma Gandhi): Mr Gandhi, what do you think of 
    Western Civilization? 
    Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[paul dove via EV]

It’s been in the manual. People just don’t read it. Same for ICE car. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, January 18, 2024, 11:15 AM, (-Phil-) via EV  
wrote:

I suspect a lot of people just don't understand all of this.  When I had my
first Tesla, I remember talking to many people at superchargers, and this
was in 2015 when most Tesla owners were still early adopters and were tech
savvy, but still the lack of understanding was rampant.

The EV manufacturers seem to want to hide all this from customers so they
don't "look bad".

On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 9:06 AM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> So, in general, this means there are a lot of rideshare drivers using
> Teslas - who can't think ahead far enough to charge up at the END of the
> work day - while the pack is still warm, rather than waiting for the
> next days, when the pack is frozen.
>
> On 1/18/2024 8:50 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > Tesla preconditioning is almost always HEATING the battery, and this is a
> > GOOD thing!
> >
> > Apparently what happened in Chicago is there is a large quantity of EV
> > owners that do not have home charging.  Supposedly a high proportion are
> > rideshare operators (Lyft/Uber) that lease EVs to use for work.  This
> means
> > they operate 100% on public charging.  If you park an EV outside below
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[paul dove via EV]

Yes, charging at cold temperatures damages the batteries is my understanding. 


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On Thursday, January 18, 2024, 10:27 AM, Mark Hanson via EV  
wrote:

Hi Phil etc,
When Tesla says pre conditioning the battery prior to a supercharger is it 
cooling the battery to say 60F since the charging process heats it up?

Also why does Tesla (and other EVs like my Leaf and Bolt) disable the regen 
below freezing?  It draws 100s of amps when driving, you think putting back the 
same would be ok for the battery, coming or going shouldn’t matter?

NBC News last night said Chicago Tesla drivers had to wait at the Supercharger 
for an hour or so (wouldn’t allow them to charge till battery warmed up).  I 
haven’t experienced this at 10F but up there it was 2F.  Is this a real issue 
or just the news getting it wrong (again).  
Best regards 
Mark

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Dead Teslas in Chicago

[paul dove via EV]

I read one article it was about an Uber driver who left for work with 30 miles 
on his battery it quickly read zero and he said he had to be towed and then it 
took 5 hours to get a charge.
Now, is that a Tesla problem or a technology problem. IMO, no! If I drove an 
Uber I would make sure it was full at the end of my shift. Second, you can tell 
the car you are going to supercharge it and it will precondition the battery.
These are people who clearly don’t plan for life. 


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On Wednesday, January 17, 2024, 9:36 AM, Kevin Horton via EV 
 wrote:

The crux of the problem is that there were too many people buying EVs who 
didn't have any way to charge at home or work.  Combine that with inadequate 
battery heating in RWD Model 3 and Y, so that if the battery cools down during 
a long queue, it can take a very long time after plugging in to the 
Supercharger before the battery is warm enough to start charging.  Testing on a 
M3 in NV showed a one hour wait time between plugging into the Supercharger and 
the battery started charging, if the battery was extremely cold.

The Out of Spec podcast on Youtube had good coverage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB3Z5zd0gnQ
The Real Story Behind Electric Cars Freezing In Chicago - Clogged Chargers, 
Cold Batteries, Stranded
youtube.com


Tesla should learn from this, and increase battery heating capacity to better 
address charging a very cold battery in very cold ambient temperatures.  And 
folks who cannot charge at home or work should perhaps not be buying EVs yet, 
until the public charging infrastructure rollout catches up.

Kevin

> On Jan 16, 2024, at 23:58, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> 
> Teslas are lined up in extreme cold, waiting for Chicago Supercharger 
> stations, where charging is very slow.  Apparently some drivers have run out 
> of charge trying to stay warm while waiting for a turn and had to call for a 
> tow.
> 
> Not a big surprise at ~-20C I suppose, but I don't recall reading of such 
> problems in the Nordic countries.  Maybe those owners are more likely to be 
> educated about their vehicles, and to follow Tesla's cold weather 
> recommendations.
> 
> Not much is said about other EV brands, but there's no reason I can think of 
> that Teslas should have any more cold weather charging problems than Bolts,  
> Leaves, Kias, et cetera.
> 
> -
> 
> Dead Tesla cars pile up at Chicago Superchargers in extreme cold
> 
> A bunch of Tesla vehicles were unable to charge at Supercharger stations 
> across Chicago amid an extreme cold wave. ...
> 
> Chicago is seeing an extreme cold wave at the moment. Yesterday, the windy 
> city had a temperature of 2F (-19C) that felt like- 20F (-29C) after the 
> wind factor.
> 
> These extreme temperatures have been blamed for issues at Tesla Supercharger 
> stations across the city. ...
> 
> Most Superchargers are marked as all-in-use with wait times ...
> 
> https://electrek.co/2024/01/16/dead-tesla-cars-pile-up-chicago-superchargers-
> extreme-cold/
> 
> or https://cntp.me/ZF6ntkE
> 
> -
> 
> "I've been here for over five hours at this point and I still have not 
> gotten to charge my car," Tesla driver Brandon Welbourne told CBS News 
> Chicago, as car horns blared nearby. "A charge that should take 45 minutes 
> is taking two hours." ...
> 
> Tesla has tips for drivers in the cold ... 
> 
> maintaining a charge of at least 20% ... 
> 
> warm[ing] the battery. ... 
> 
> using Trip Planner to navigate to a charging location for at least 30-45 
> minutes before arrival to ensure optimal Battery temperature and charging 
> conditions ...
> 
> "Always connect to an external, low voltage power supply before opening a 
> door when the vehicle has no power," Tesla says, "to avoid breaking a 
> window." [Yikes.  I take it that Teslas have no hard-key backup.]
> 
> https://www.npr.org/2024/01/16/1224913698/teslas-chicago-charging-extreme-
> cold
> 
> or https://cntp.me/xlCSYgo
> 
> -
> 
> Most news sources are reporting it straight and without bias.  A few are 
> pushing the negatives.  Thanks guys.  Example:
> 
> 'Don't Buy a Tesla': Chicago's EV Drivers Struggle With Sub-Zero 
> Temperatures
> 
> With temperatures consistently below zero in Chicago, electric vehicle 
> drivers there have struggled to keep their EVs charged over the past few 
> days. ...
> 
> "I've never seen it like this before," says one driver on TikTok as she 
> scrolls through her Tesla app, which shows 20- to 30-minute wait times at 
> most Superchargers near her. "Don't get a Tesla," she says, unless you live 
> in a warm climate. ...
> 
> When PCMag took a Tesla Model 3 on a day trip around Chicago in January 
> 2023, it achieved less than 100 miles of the advertised range and could not 
> go more than an hour and a half without charging. ...
> 
> https://www.pcmag.com/news/dont-buy-a-tesla-chicagos-ev-drivers-struggle-
> with-sub-zero-temperatures
> 
> or https://cntp.me/lJQ6r4T
> 
> David R

Re: [EVDL] 156v Tech assistance needed

[paul dove via EV]

Hey John,
You say you run your shop off of the 24v setup….. do you have an inverter that 
makes 120VAC? Or 240VAC? 
Seems to me that all you need is an inverter and a charger. There would be some 
losses but simple to implement. 
If you go straight to the battery from the array you could use a DC to DC 
converter. Not sure of availability at those voltages. Let me think a bit and 
I’ll back to you.
Paul


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, January 12, 2024, 9:21 PM, John McIntire via EV  
wrote:

Having read this list for several years now, and commented occasionally, I know 
there some electrical engineers out there. It is to you I address this problem.

I am now the proud owner of a '96 Solectria Force which will be receiving a new 
battery made up of 48, 280A LiFePo4 prismatic cells. The Force was designed to 
run at 156v (13 lead acid batteries). My primary power source is a 16 panel, 
8.5 Kw PV array. Max voltage under load is 43v/panel at 13A. There is no back 
up power as I am not grid tied. I do have a small domestic 24v Li battery to 
run my shop. The Force battery will be equipped with a robust BMS.

I can configure the panels to provide 172v at 52A in full sun but I know that 
the voltage and amp will be unstable which does not promote longevity in Li 
cells. Normal circumstances have a charge controller between the battery and 
the array to even out the voltage. Normal charge controllers are 48v or less. I 
would like to find or build a buck/boost circuit that would match the battery.

I think I could break the Force battery into 3, 16s packs, charge them parallel 
at 48v+ and then reconnect in series for discharge. I think 2 contactors per 
pack along with appropriate safety devices would do the job but that seems 
cumbersome at best if workable.

I am not an engineer. I do have 30 years experience with automotive 
electronics. Since partial retirement, over the past 15 years I have converted 
an S-10 and 2 tractors to run as EVs. So I am somewhat familiar with the 
concepts and pitfalls.

I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks in advance.

John M

"Money doesn't talk, it swears"--Bob Dylan
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Yet more bad PR for Tesla

[paul dove via EV]

NHTSA Datasets and APIs | NHTSA 



https://www.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa-datasets-and apis




Replace missing - for link

Tesla is not in too 12

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, December 21, 2023, 7:58 AM, EV@TucsonEV via EV  
wrote:

Speaking of recalls, did you see that Toyota is recalling roughly 1 million cars
in the U.S. because the front passenger air bags may not deploy properly in a
crash, posing additional risk of injury to riders.
And in November, the company recalled 1.9 million RAV4 sport utility vehicles in
the U.S. because the batteries can shift during sharp turns and potentially
cause a fire.
And on Oct. 26 also recalled roughly 751,000 Toyota Highlander SUVs in the U.S.
to fix a problem with the tabs that secure the vehicles' front lower bumper
covers. Even a minor crash could cause the bumper cover assembly to fall off, a
potential hazard to drivers, the company said.

So in just in a year Toyota has had recalls for 3,651,000 cars. Globally, Toyota
sold around 10.48 million vehicles between January and December 2022, so their
2023 number should be similar. That means that about 34% of their vehicles had
recalls...

I just thought we should have another look at another companies failures to see
how Tesla compares.


Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV
www.TucsonEV.com




> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2023 9:52 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: EV List Lackey 
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Yet more bad PR for Tesla
>
> I just hate seeing thiese dire Tesla news stories piling up.  I'm not an
engineer or
> regulator so I can't say anything about their validity.  I haven't read any
similar
> reports here on the list.  But for sure the negative publicity alone is doing
Tesla no
> good.
>
> -
>
> From Reuters again:
>
> Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective
>
> Wheels falling off cars at speed. Suspensions collapsing on brand-new
vehicles.
> Axles breaking under acceleration. Tens of thousands of customers told Tesla
> about a host of part failures on low-mileage cars. The automaker sought to
blame
> drivers for vehicle `abuse,´ but Tesla documents show it had tracked the
chronic
> `flaws´ and `failures´ for years.
>
> *
>
> Individual suspension or steering issues with Teslas have been discussed
online and
> in news accounts for years. But the documents, which have not been previously
> reported, offer the most comprehensive view to date into the scope of the
> problems and how Tesla handled what its engineers have internally called part
> "flaws" and "failures." The records and interviews reveal for the first time
that the
> automaker has long known far more about the frequency and extent of the
defects
> than it has disclosed to consumers and safety regulators.
>
> *
>
> Tesla has blamed frequent failures of several parts on Tesla owners, alleging
they
> abused the cars ... [and] charged customers with out-of- warranty cars to
replace
> parts that Tesla engineers internally called flawed or that they knew had high
> failure rates.
>
> *
>
> The records reveal persistent problems with ... upper and lower control arms,
and
> fore and aft links ... half shafts - the left and right drive axles - and
steering racks
> ...
>
> *
>
> Between 2016 and 2020, Tesla resolved about 400 complaints involving aft- link
> failures in China ... Tesla redesigned the part four times because the initial
> revisions did not fully fix the problem, the automaker´s records show.
>
> *
>
> Tesla delayed a recall for four more years, until Chinese regulators pushed
for one
> ...  the automaker never recalled the part in the United States and Europe
despite
> reports of frequent failures globally.
>
> Tesla told U.S. regulators the failures were caused by "driver abuse." The
company
> also instructed service centers, in a February 2019 "talking points"
> memo, to use the same explanation with customers experiencing aft-link
failures.
> They were told to blame "vehicle misuse," such as "hitting a curb or other
> excessive strong impact."
>
> *
>
> Tesla owners have filed about 260 complaints with NHTSA over suspension and
> steering problems this year, compared to about 750 for General Motors and
> 230 for Toyota. That makes Tesla´s complaint rate far higher when considering
the
> number of GM and Toyota vehicles on the road. GM has a 21% share of U.S. cars
in
> operation; Toyota, 15%. Tesla´s share: less than 1%, according to data
analytics
> firm Experian.
>
> *
>
> "All I can tell you," the Tesla manager said, "is we´re not a 100-year-old
company
> like GM and Ford. We haven´t worked all the bugs out yet."
>
> -
>
> Those are just a few highlights (or lowlights if you will).  Read the full
> story:
>
> https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-
> suspension/
>
> or https://v.gd/XaWQzF
>
> Keeping in mind that Tesla also trades in the more strongly re

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Yet more bad PR for Tesla

[paul dove via EV]

Yes, I recall the rapid acceleration issue they had years ago that they blamed 
on the drivers.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, December 21, 2023, 7:58 AM, EV@TucsonEV via EV  
wrote:

Speaking of recalls, did you see that Toyota is recalling roughly 1 million cars
in the U.S. because the front passenger air bags may not deploy properly in a
crash, posing additional risk of injury to riders.
And in November, the company recalled 1.9 million RAV4 sport utility vehicles in
the U.S. because the batteries can shift during sharp turns and potentially
cause a fire.
And on Oct. 26 also recalled roughly 751,000 Toyota Highlander SUVs in the U.S.
to fix a problem with the tabs that secure the vehicles' front lower bumper
covers. Even a minor crash could cause the bumper cover assembly to fall off, a
potential hazard to drivers, the company said.

So in just in a year Toyota has had recalls for 3,651,000 cars. Globally, Toyota
sold around 10.48 million vehicles between January and December 2022, so their
2023 number should be similar. That means that about 34% of their vehicles had
recalls...

I just thought we should have another look at another companies failures to see
how Tesla compares.


Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV
www.TucsonEV.com




> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2023 9:52 AM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: EV List Lackey 
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Yet more bad PR for Tesla
>
> I just hate seeing thiese dire Tesla news stories piling up.  I'm not an
engineer or
> regulator so I can't say anything about their validity.  I haven't read any
similar
> reports here on the list.  But for sure the negative publicity alone is doing
Tesla no
> good.
>
> -
>
> From Reuters again:
>
> Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective
>
> Wheels falling off cars at speed. Suspensions collapsing on brand-new
vehicles.
> Axles breaking under acceleration. Tens of thousands of customers told Tesla
> about a host of part failures on low-mileage cars. The automaker sought to
blame
> drivers for vehicle `abuse,´ but Tesla documents show it had tracked the
chronic
> `flaws´ and `failures´ for years.
>
> *
>
> Individual suspension or steering issues with Teslas have been discussed
online and
> in news accounts for years. But the documents, which have not been previously
> reported, offer the most comprehensive view to date into the scope of the
> problems and how Tesla handled what its engineers have internally called part
> "flaws" and "failures." The records and interviews reveal for the first time
that the
> automaker has long known far more about the frequency and extent of the
defects
> than it has disclosed to consumers and safety regulators.
>
> *
>
> Tesla has blamed frequent failures of several parts on Tesla owners, alleging
they
> abused the cars ... [and] charged customers with out-of- warranty cars to
replace
> parts that Tesla engineers internally called flawed or that they knew had high
> failure rates.
>
> *
>
> The records reveal persistent problems with ... upper and lower control arms,
and
> fore and aft links ... half shafts - the left and right drive axles - and
steering racks
> ...
>
> *
>
> Between 2016 and 2020, Tesla resolved about 400 complaints involving aft- link
> failures in China ... Tesla redesigned the part four times because the initial
> revisions did not fully fix the problem, the automaker´s records show.
>
> *
>
> Tesla delayed a recall for four more years, until Chinese regulators pushed
for one
> ...  the automaker never recalled the part in the United States and Europe
despite
> reports of frequent failures globally.
>
> Tesla told U.S. regulators the failures were caused by "driver abuse." The
company
> also instructed service centers, in a February 2019 "talking points"
> memo, to use the same explanation with customers experiencing aft-link
failures.
> They were told to blame "vehicle misuse," such as "hitting a curb or other
> excessive strong impact."
>
> *
>
> Tesla owners have filed about 260 complaints with NHTSA over suspension and
> steering problems this year, compared to about 750 for General Motors and
> 230 for Toyota. That makes Tesla´s complaint rate far higher when considering
the
> number of GM and Toyota vehicles on the road. GM has a 21% share of U.S. cars
in
> operation; Toyota, 15%. Tesla´s share: less than 1%, according to data
analytics
> firm Experian.
>
> *
>
> "All I can tell you," the Tesla manager said, "is we´re not a 100-year-old
company
> like GM and Ford. We haven´t worked all the bugs out yet."
>
> -
>
> Those are just a few highlights (or lowlights if you will).  Read the full
> story:
>
> https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-
> suspension/
>
> or https://v.gd/XaWQzF
>
> Keeping in mind that Tesla also trades in the more strongly regulated EU, I
sure
> don't want to see T

Re: [EVDL] Totally OT, but... (was: Elon Musk: "We should not demonize oil and gas")

[paul dove via EV]

That is not new. James Hanson told this to congress in the 80s. Al Gore made a 
documentary and everyone laughed. Still, I drive electric and have stopped 
flying for the most part sometimes for work I don’t have a choice. I’ll drive 
for most trips. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 17, 2023, 2:58 AM, Bill Dube via EV  
wrote:

Just a totally OT comment on this:

     I'm retired now, but I used to have several colleagues in climate 
research. (Basically, they are what a common person would call a climate 
scientist.) When I spoke with any of them privately, they all expressed 
the opinion that we have likely "broken the planet." That is; Even if we 
were to completely stop putting CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) into 
the air now, the processes we have set into motion will continue to 
_accelerate_ for decades to come. (Things are going to get _far_ worse 
in the the coming decades, even if we were to stop pumping CO2 into the 
air entirely now.)

     We are discovering knock-on processes daily that make matters worse 
and accelerate to worsening global warming and climate change. The 
planet has _never_ heated up so fast, so we have no history to look back 
on to predict what other accelerating knock-on effects will kick in. No 
one is optimistic. No one. The consensus is that it is gong to be very 
very bad.

     Having said this, not continuing to shovel coal into the boiler of 
the runaway locomotive is still the very best option and will help lead 
to the least gruesome future outcome as we speed towards the 
metaphorical cliff.

  Soapbox Mode = 

    Bill D.

On 12/17/2023 10:55 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> Oil and gas should not be demonised in the medium-term, Elon Musk, the
> founder of electric car maker Tesla (TSLA.O), said on Saturday, but he also
> said it was important to reduce carbon emissions to preserve the planet.
>
> Musk, speaking at a right-wing political gathering organised by Italian
> Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy party, said: "Climate
> change alarm is exaggerated in the short term," adding that the
> environmental movement may have gone too far, causing people to lose faith
> in the future.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/oil-gas-should-not-be-demonized-elon-
> musk-says-2023-12-16/
>
> or https://v.gd/n5ctOQ
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>      Elon Musk has lost his wife, his kids, his spaceship, and 40 billion
>      dollars.  It's like some kind of country music that doesn't even
>      exist yet.
>
>                                                        -- John Carlsen
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>

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Re: [EVDL] consumer reports EV reliability

[paul dove via EV]

I agree but notice it only listed two complaints body panels not fitting and 
battery or charging issues. They also didn’t list Tesla or mention them. Lexus 
was the top of the list. It was mostly focused on hybrids.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, November 30, 2023, 10:15 AM, Bill Dube via EV  
wrote:

These stats don't align with my personal experience. We have owned two 
used Leafs over the past 7 years and have had zero (0) issues. Changed 
tires, changed wiper blades, and filled the windshield washer fluid. 
Never brought either in for any repair. How did Nissan fair compared to 
others in the mix?

It may be that the complaints arise from consumer misunderstanding of 
how to correctly/optimally use the vehicle. Perhaps unrealistic 
expectations might also play some role in the low score.

For example, the person that I sold our first Leaf to plugged the 
charger into the car, but somehow neglected to plug the charger into the 
wall when he first got the car. This went on for several days until he 
realized that the battery was nearly flat.

Bill D.

On 12/1/2023 4:37 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> I don't have access to consumer reports, but this article summarized it:
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/consumer-reports-electric-vehicles-less-reliable-on-average-than-conventional-cars-and-trucks/
>  
>
>
> ...
> Consumer Reports, which found that EVs from the 2021 through 2023 
> model years encountered nearly 80% more problems than did vehicles 
> propelled by internal combustion engines.
> ...
> Consumer Reports said EV owners most frequently reported troubles with 
> battery and charging systems as well as flaws in how the vehicles’ 
> body panels and interior parts fit together.
> ...
> The Consumer Reports survey also concluded that plug-in hybrids, which 
> can travel on battery power before a gas-electric powertrain kicks in, 
> are more problem-prone than fully electric vehicles. [Do the stats 
> include plug-ins or just pure EVs ?]
> ...
> EVs from the 2021 and 2022 model years overall had more than twice the 
> problem rates of internal combustion vehicles. The rates were more 
> closely aligned in the 2023 model year: Those EVs had only 21% more 
> problems than gasoline vehicles, Fisher said.
> ...
> Consumer Reports says its survey of subscribers, representing 330,000 
> vehicles, took place last spring and summer. It asked owners of 
> vehicles from the 2000 through 2023 model years, with a smattering of 
> 2024 models, about problems they had experienced in the previous 12 
> months. [What are the stats for pre 2021 models ?]
>
> -
>
> I think it's highly misrepresentative. They only reported problems for 
> the last 2-3 years. That means the type of problems reported are 
> likely due to manufacturing problems rather than durability. If they 
> had gone over 10 years, I wonder what the stats would be.
>
> If anyone has access to consumer reports, I'd like to know what the 
> full report says. Did seattle times misrepresent EVs or did consumer 
> reports ?
>
> P.S. I used to read consumer reports but found they typically review 
> only new products and don't look at how products hold up during their 
> lifetime. That's nice but only half the story.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> ___
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> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Cybertruck buyer's remorse not allowed?

[paul dove via EV]

 I don't believe population is a problem. Greed is the problem.
There is plenty here and resources could all be recycled.
On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 01:36:35 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 > Would or will YOU agree to it?
Kind of reminds me of this.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUPOvcolNZg





-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 
 

    On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 04:02:04 PM PST, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I've been saying for years that if you buy a Tesla, you don't really own it.

It seems that goes double for the Cybertruck.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-sue-cybertruck-buyers-they-resell-in-
first-year-2023-11

shortcut URL: https://v.gd/QA68vz

I'm sure there must be a good reason for this - right?  

Would or will YOU agree to it?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    To fascists, satire is more dangerous than bullets. They're always 
    humorless, so they have no defense against laughter and derision.

                                                          -- Anonymous

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.

[paul dove via EV]

The point is you can’t break the laws of physics. You can use them to make 
efficient vehicles but you can’t violate conservation of energy. Can’t get out 
more than you put in.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, November 8, 2023, 8:33 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:

 Gail Donaldson Lucas wrote:
> David, I am laughing remembering the generator on the wheel
> and the windmill on hood. There was a plan for running on water
> too, wish I had saved all that valuable info.
Ya hey sure ya betcha!

Why, I remember a guy that put a generator on the wheel of his EV, and drove it 
all the way from Concocha to Paramonga in Peru (117 km or 72 miles), and 
arrived with *more* charge in his EV than when he left. ('Course, it was all 
downhill...)

And there's this guy that built the Blackbird that is like, totally 
wind-powered. It can go *faster* than the wind is blowing, ya! (OK, so it's 
more like a sailboat on wheels; but it works...)

Don't forget them solar raycers. They can go 60 mph powered by nothing but pure 
sunlight. (Course, they's more like bicycles than cars.)

Then NASA has been using nickel-hydrogen batteries to power their spacecraft 
since the 1970's. When charged, they make hydrogen and oxygen. When discharged, 
they use the hydrogen and oxygen to make electricity.

--If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called "research", would it? -- 
Albert Einstein
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com


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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[paul dove via EV]

Yes, he stated they would need storage facilities, that’s obvious because of 
nightfall.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, November 7, 2023, 6:28 PM, Michael Ross  
wrote:

Musk proposed a seat of the pants estimate in an interview about how much solar 
array surface area would produce as much energy as THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. 
He used the output of average solar equipment at less than optimal output (I 
forget, maybe it was 15% efficient cells).
I did my own seat of the pants order of magnitude estimate, looking at all the 
fossil fuels burned, nuke generated energy, geothermal, hydro, etc. I think he 
could defend it.
However, it is not practical. The sun moves across the sky at a degree every 4 
minutes. You can get pretty good output from contemporaneous panels that are at 
a 30 degree incident angle. You need to have additional 100 mile on a side 
solar farms spaced appropriately around the entire earth and the wire 
infrastructure to support it. You would need some redundancy to handle 
cloudiness. Or maybe a feces load of batteries, pump storage, gravity storage, 
something storage. Suffice it to say you have to have a lot of these arrays all 
around the earth, and maybe between the tropics of cancer and capricorn. Tricky 
'cause there is a lot of ocean out there.
I found his thought experiment useful to highlight just how much power the sun 
sends our way. You can barely see a 100 mile square plot of lane from space. It 
is truly tine compared to the surface of the earth.
On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 6:43 PM paul dove  wrote:

Elon Musk said he can power the whole US with 100 square miles on solar panels 
in Arizona 
SNIP


-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text(919) 576-0824 Tablet, Google 
Phone and Text





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Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.

[paul dove via EV]

Toyota did make two similar announcements one was a trigen facility that made 
hydrogen, clean water and electricy. The other was a hydrogen fuel cell 
electric Hilux prototype.




Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, November 7, 2023, 6:41 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

Ok, thanks for clarifying. It appears no one has any such info. And in 
my opinion, whatever you saw was a hoax.

But to elaborate just a bit, you could store compressed methane on board 
and produce hydrogen from that. There could be a positive side to that 
as it's much easier to store compressed methane than hydrogen. Whether 
that's a practical or beneficial solution, I have no idea. And it's not 
something I'm interested in exploring.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "63urban via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "63urban" <63ur...@gmail.com>
Sent: 07-Nov-23 16:23:07
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.

>This all started when I asked if anyone had any knowledge about toyota's claim 
>that they plan to generate hydrogen on board as needed. If they pull it off it 
>will be an absolute game changer.A simple no we don't know anything about 
>toyotas claim and we think it sounds like hooy would have sufficed. No one is 
>disputing or looking for a desertation on the failed history of hydrogen to 
>date.Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
> Original message From: John Lussmyer via EV 
> Date: 2023-11-07  7:10 p.m.  (GMT-05:00) To: Peri Hartman 
>via EV  Cc: John Lussmyer  Subject: 
>Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success. And also note that most of 
>the existing Hydrogen fueling stations are being shut down.On 11/7/2023 2:36 
>PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:> Yes, the Mirai is a real vehicle and is fueled 
>with hydrogen. But you > need to fill it's tank (cylinders of compressed H2) 
>with hydrogen, > which has to be produced somehow. Not only that, the H2 has 
>to be > highly compressed, which takes substantial additional 
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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[paul dove via EV]

Elon Musk said he can power the whole US with 100 square miles on solar panels 
in Arizona 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, November 6, 2023, 12:41 PM, Michael Ross via EV  
wrote:

I note a couple things about Zeihan's POV: He is talking about global
defossilizing. Not mere vehicle electrification. We face the fact that EVs
are just a small part of what needs solving.
If he is correct, and his business is doing the math, we need to work on
things that have a possibility of helping on a global scale. Much as I hate
the idea, all 7 billion of us need nuclear solutions. There is a place for
solar and wind, but the sun doesn't shine enough where we need it and same
with wind. We should not waste our precious time and treasure on faulty
plans.

All the comments on this thread have failed to actually understand what he
is talking about, or even watch it, seemingly.

It is just arithmetic he is presenting. What is he getting wrong?

He says if you add up all the copper in the world, how it has to get used,
where more comes from, the time it takes to ramp production, accounting for
recycling, and so on, we are in trouble. Likewise, paladiums, tin, aluminum
(take enormous amounts of electricity), magnet materials, and so on, we
come up way short.

None of you out here make it your business to ferret out all the details.
This is Zeihan's business and he has research staff behind him. I recommend
his most recent book which has a very interesting chapter on industrial
materials. It is short and not fleshed out fully, but I follow his logic,
and don't believe he has anything pushing him to make stuff up. He likes
the outdoors and wants a clean environment. But, he seems certain that
making any headway won't come from electrification except after many
decades, potentially a century. If he is anywhere near correct, then we
need to reconfigure our efforts. Now.



On Sun, Nov 5, 2023, 2:19 PM Thos True via EV  wrote:

> I find it difficult to believe that we are once again being drawn into the
> argument that the grid cannot support the demand for EV's.
> Society has been in this situation several times since the early 1900's.
> With each new electrical product's popularity (televisions, refrigerators,
> air conditioners, hot tubs, washers and dryers, motorhomes, Mcmansions,
> housing developments, fast food restaurants, factories, etc), the same
> fearful cry was heard. Development of "the grid" has been ahead of demand
> in the majority of markets,  as they are a business that wants to sell as
> much of their products as possible. Even when the demand levels off,
> utilities are continuously upgrading the equipment with more efficient
> devices to maximize output utilizing the same foot print ( fenced in
> facilities, usually).
> Most vehicles use around the same amount of electricity per charge as
> running a dryer for a couple of cycles (how many people think twice about
> doing that?).
> Just my 2 watts worth,
> Tom True
>
> On Sat, Nov 4, 2023, 5:32 PM EV@TucsonEV via EV  wrote:
>
> > Well, once again, it looks like the thread has strayed from EV's into
> > politics...
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > TucsonEV
> > 1014 E King St
> > Tucson AZ 85719
> > 520 240 7493
> > www.TucsonEV.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  EV List Lackey wrote -
> > > "To understand the Republican party, or the Democratic party, for that
> > matter,
> > it is
> > > most efficient to look directly at the clients -- or as political
> > scientist
> > Thomas
> > > Ferguson would call them, the 'major investors.'
> > > On that level, the ideological contradictions are unimportant.
> Political
> > parties do
> > > function as mediating institutions, just not for voters."
> > >
> > > -- William Greider, "Who Will Tell the People"
> >
> > Well, once again, it looks like the thread has strayed from EV's into
> > politics...
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > TucsonEV
> > www.TucsonEV.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] California solicits applications for $40 million in NEVI EV charging grants

[paul dove via EV]

Your seriously comparing horses vs cars with EVs vs ICEs? 
Horses were overcome by technology which is not the case here! Some tasks will 
always be better suited to combustion engines.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, November 4, 2023, 8:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:

Paul Dove wrote:
> We’ve had battery powered lawn equipment for over 10 years now
> and they still sell gasoline versions. We will never go 100% EV.

No; it will never be 100%. But it could easily reach 50% or even more within 
our lifetimes. Longer term, it may well get very close to 100% EV.

100 years ago, ICEs started replacing horses. A century later, there are 
*still* a small percentage of people using horses. But the vast majority of 
people use ICEs.

Le
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] California solicits applications for $40 million in NEVI EV charging grants

[paul dove via EV]

Very doubtful! We’ve had battery powered lawn equipment for over 10 years now 
and they still sale gasoline versions. We will never go 100% EV. Not unless the 
outlaw it.


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On Friday, November 3, 2023, 1:45 PM, EV@TucsonEV via EV  
wrote:

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/california-solicits-applications-for-40-million-
in-nevi-ev-charging-grants/  

 

I can just see it now, in a few years there are going to be massive parking lots
in Nevada, Arizona, Oregon and Baja Calif where parking for gas guzzlers are
going to be parked for $20/day because Calif only has EV charging stations, no
gas stations. 

 

Best regards,

 

Rush Dougherty

TucsonEV

www.TucsonEV.com  

 

 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency

[paul dove via EV]

It’s mostly due to the ratio of battery weight to vehicle weight. A much larger 
percentage of the weight is batteries compared to other vehicles and 
conversions 


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On Thursday, October 26, 2023, 2:57 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:

Tesla probably has a lot more tricks up its sleeve than just aerodynamics and 
motor/controller efficiency.

The old DC series motors and controllers were each about 90% efficient; so 
about 80% overall. Tesla's combined motor and controller have improved that to 
perhaps 90%; but that's only a 10 gain.

As has been said, the Cd is better. but the frontal area is also more than a 
typical small car conversion. So again, not that much of a gain.

It could be that Tesla is using special tires. I found a considerable 
improvement in mpg between "normal" tires and the special Bridgestone Potenzas 
that came on my Prius, and the Goodyear Invictas that came on my Plymouth 
minivan. I got a similar improvement in range when I used these particular 
tires on my EVs.

Brake drag is another factor. Most cars let the pads just barely touch the 
rotors. EVs take special pains to design the brakes to fully retract the pads.

Still another is wheel alignment. Most cars are designed with deliberate toe-in 
in front, and sometimes in the rear wheels as well. I think this is done to 
improve handling. But it increases rolling resistance. One of Solectria's 
tricks was to meticulously adjust their EVs for zero toe-in. You could easily 
push a Solectria Force with one hand.

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
-Original Message-
From: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Sent: Oct 26, 2023 11:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: (-Phil-) 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency

Tesla's PMSRM motor and SiCFET inverter tech is also pretty amazing for
efficiency.

FYI: I have a 2018 Model 3 and I tow all the time with no issues. Several
companies make a bolt-on hitch.

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 7:48 AM Peri Hartman via EV
wrote:

> I think you nailed it. The Y has a Cd of 0.23 according to a few sites I
> checked. That's a pretty awesome number compared to almost any other
> car.
>
> If your test driving includes a lot of steep hills or starts and stops,
> the Cd probably won't make much difference. I presume you are driving
> mostly at constant speeds on relatively level ground. In the latter
> case, the rolling resistance and Cd are the important factors.
>
> Also, residential streets versus highways make a difference, of course.
> The Cd has little effect until you get close to highway speeds.
>
> Peri
>
> >
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark E. Hanson via EV"
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'"
> Cc: markehans...@gmail.com
> Sent: 26-Oct-23 06:58:13
> Subject: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency
>
> >Hi Folks,
> >
> >
> >
> >I was curious why my Tesla-Y that's 4400 pounds came out ahead of my
> >conversions over the years (80's-2011) that averaged 334 watt hours per
> mile
> >or 3 miles per KWH (weighed closer to 2000lbs). The Tesla-Y display which
> >is DC at the battery, shows 244 watt hours per mile. I measured at the AC
> >outlet (actual KWH usage) with the KWH meter on OpenEVSE.com, also matched
> >the Tesla screen display at 36.77 KWH.
> >
> >
> >
> >The car traveled from 72,553 to 72,414 or 139 miles. 139/36.77=3.78 miles
> >per KWH or 264.5 watt hours per mile. With the car display at 244 watt
> >hours per mile, that's a 7.7% efficiency loss through the onboard charger,
> >so impressive aero efficiency as indicated on the InsideEVs website
> >comparing all EVs. Conversions are probably less efficient do to poorer
> >aero efficiency that takes an exponential hit at highway speeds.
> >
> >
> >
> >I was initially going to buy a Tesla-3 (now advertised at $37K) but said
> *no
> >towing* and the Y showed 3500 pounds of towing needed for towing my 5x8
> >trailer for solar panels/concrete/racking (solar volunteer club) and boat.
> >Not sure why the Tesla-3 says no towing when it uses the *same*
> drivetrain.
> >
> >
> >
> >BTW, I'm taking the advice of some and going to the dealer with the Bolt
> to
> >get the $1400 bait software 80% for 6200 miles - since the 2020 model
> >battery issues are less than 1% (most occurred in previous years
> 2017-2019).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Have a renewable energy day,
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark E. Hanson
> >
> >184 Vista Lane
> >
> >Fincastle, VA 24090
> >
> >540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> >
> >REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> >
> >Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> >
> >UL Certified PV Installer
> >
> >My RE&EV Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> >
> >REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> >
> >
> > https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> >75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-- nex

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?

[paul dove via EV]

The source is right there! Reuters!


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, October 17, 2023, 3:26 PM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 17 Oct 2023 at 15:57, paul dove via EV wrote:

> We have some news of the efficiency of Tesla -vs- VW in terms of how many
> workers can make how many cars in Germany, according to a Reuters.com article.
> Let's see what the number say:

I could be wrong, but unless you've started referring to yourself as the 
royal we, this looks like copy and paste, rather than your own words. 

What's the source, please?  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
    It would scare the world.

          -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?

[paul dove via EV]

Tesla Worker Efficiency

We have some news of the efficiency of Tesla -vs- VW in terms of how many 
workers can make how many cars in Germany, according to a Reuters.com article. 
Let's see what the number say:

In Germany:
Tesla will produce 500,000 cars with 12,000 workers
VW will produce 700,000 cars with 25,000 workers

Let's do some simple math.

Tesla will produce (500,000 / 12,000) or 41.66 cars per worker
VW will produce (700,000 / 25,000) or 28 cars per worker

In terms of efficiency, Tesla is about 33% more efficient in producing vehicles 
per worker (28 / 41.66).  




Tesla Worker Efficiency Has VW On the Ropes 

Tesla Worker Efficiency Has VW On the Ropes Torquenews.com
Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, October 17, 2023, 6:24 AM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 17 Oct 2023 at 0:27, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> I am not buying  these figures on unknown say so. Sounds like BS. Just
> whose EVs and whose batteries? Which models?

Here's the original article, with some discussion of methodology.

https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/evs-trump-uaw-jobs-evidence

> Anna Stefanopoulou, a professor of mechanical engineering at the
> University of Michigan, has been investigating three manufacturing
> sites that used to produce conventional cars and are now producing
> EVs: A Tesla factory in California that used to be a jointly-owned
> facility between GM and Toyota that produced Pontiacs and Corollas; a
> Rivian plant in Illinois that previously produced Mitsubishis; and the
> Orion Assembly plant in Michigan, where GM transitioned from producing
> Chevy Sonics and Buick Veranos to electric Chevy Bolts ... Each one is
> producing fewer vehicles per worker than they were before, meaning
> it´s taking more people per vehicle to produce electric cars. The
> California site, which has been producing EVs for the longest out of
> the three, showed the most dramatic change. At its peak, the GM/Toyota
> plant produced 80 vehicles per person per year. The Tesla plant
> averages 30. 
> 
> Stefanopoulou ... predicts that after a decade or so, as processes
> become more streamlined, the commonly-held belief that EV assembly
> requires less labor will turn out to be correct. However, she also said
> that if she were to consider battery cell production, as Cotterman did,
> EV production on the whole could require more people.  

That's just the central point and there are qualifications.  I suggest that 
you read the entire piece at the above link.

The Tesla vs GM/Toyota vehicle productivity hit really surprises me.  I 
thought that Tesla had gone all in for automation.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel 
    like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some 
    humorous comments on lava. 

                                                  -- Tom Lehrer
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Re: [EVDL] Starship will be no better than cavemen throwing rocks at the moon

[paul dove via EV]

 I watched the beginning of that and I don't get the connection to starship 
that is the title of your post.
Was there a point you were trying to make?
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 02:47:48 PM CDT, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 https://www.youtube.com/live/zDY7t6HihCw?si=4QDCdXL7DPNp3woq Yesterday at 
National Press Club. Disclosure Project. The world could change overnight. 
Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000lb of metal, parked

[paul dove via EV]

Yes, that’s exactly why I didn’t believe the story.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 7:20 PM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

The owner had no problems getting warranty repair for a battery problem.  
Her trouble started because 

1. Tesla ran a Carmax report on the car 

2. They discovered an erroneous accident report

3. Without verifying the report, they disabled the car's supercharger access

4. Tesla's service people didn't tell the owner, who didn't discover it was 
disabled until she needed to use a supercharger

5. They ignored her requests to reinstate the supercharging even when she 
proved that her car hadn't been wrecked

6. The media had to get involved before Tesla would pay attention

This raises some questions.

1. Why did Tesla service run a Carfax report in the first place?

2. Why didn't they verify the accident information before making such a 
massive change in the car's usability?

3. Why didn't they tell the owner that they'd disabled supercharging?

4. Is it really necessary to automatically disable supercharging on a 
salvaged car anyway?  

5. If Tesla can arbitrarily confiscate features that you paid for, do you 
really own your Tesla?

-

PS - The Mozilla Foundation recently issued a report on vehicle data 
privacy, ranking the generally awful privacy of several automakers.  

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-
cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/

https://v.gd/7gdOQG

Tesla placed dead last. (Nissan was only slightly ahead of them.)

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/tesla/

With its digital stalking and its insistence on control, Tesla looks a lot 
like an abusive spouse.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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    I will never be seen taking to the streets to defend my poetry. 
    The carpenter doesn't fight for his trusses. No one can fight 
    morally for his nose or his feet, his teeth, or his hair.

                                                    -- Pablo Neruda
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000lb of metal, parked

[paul dove via EV]

I have no experience with salvage cars for sure. We bought a model 3 my wife 
drove for 4 years and almost exclusively charged on 120vac with the EVSE it 
came with. We travels once or twice and used superchargers. However, I was 
under the impression if you get Tesla to inspect the vehicle they can certify 
it for supercharging. I am sure there is a fee. Also, I believe, there is a guy 
on the Tesla forum that can unlock the capability 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 5:38 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:

The Tesla owner parks her Model 3 in her *garage* and insists that she
can't drive it because it does not have Supercharging availability and
thus is worthless.
Every EV'er with even a minimal experience in charging will see the
fallacy presented here. Call it lying if you will.
Apparently the battery of the Model 3 needed replacement and the car
was not new, so it is likely that this person had experience with
charging and was pissed off with Tesla
(which I understand perfectly, my Model S also involuntarily lost Free
Lifetime Supercharging capability due to a relatively minor fender
bender that affected enough cosmetic body panels that the vehicle was
declared salvage, without affecting anything related to charging, but
alas, Tesla is very eager to remove Supercharging privileges, even if
they were essentially purchased in the sale of the vehicle.
What is even more painful is that *all* DC Fast Charging is disabled
in order to remove SuperCharging, so even public charging is limited
to the speed of Level 2 AC chargers...)
Anyway, all my EVs have no Supercharging and while it can be
convenient at times, I manage to drive my EVs fine after parking them
in my garage and charging at home, or at work. Either will result in
perfectly usable vehicles, but that will not grab headlines like the
claim of this person saying that they have a pile of unusable metal in
their garage.
Apparently the media attention solved the problem though so I hope she
is happy now.
Cor.

On Sun, Sep 17, 2023 at 12:40 PM EV List Lackey via EV
 wrote:
>
> On 17 Sep 2023 at 14:06, paul dove via EV wrote:
>
> > Stories like this are so unbelievable.
> > I have never communicated with Tesla via email.
> > Any issue with my vehicle was handled via the phone app.
> > They always respond in a timely manner
>
> Are you seriously suggesting that the Tesla owner in the news report is a
> liar?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>      There'll be one corporation, selling one little box.
>      It'll do what you want, and tell you what you want,
>      And cost whatever you've got.
>
>                    -- Greg Brown, "Where is Maria," 1996
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000lb of metal, parked

[paul dove via EV]

 Stories like this are so unbelievable.
I have never communicated with Tesla via email.
Any issue with my vehicle was handled via the phone app.
They always respond in a timely manner and I have the option to call the 
service center with questions.


On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 06:59:40 AM CDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Erine Erickson loves her Tesla Model 3. But these days, the EV stays parked 
in her garage. "It´s, you know, 3,000 pounds of metal in a parking spot 
downstairs," she said ...

... When replacing Erickson´s battery, Tesla says they discovered that 
Carfax listed her car as having a salvaged title due to being totaled in a 
collision ... Carfax´s information was wrong because an insurance company 
provided incorrect information ... 

[W]ith Carfax correcting Erickson´s car from a salvage title to a clean 
title, Tesla hadn´t restored the supercharging feature and they hadn´t 
helped Erickson at all. "I wouldn´t characterize it as customer service," 
she said. "I mean, there´s not a way to email them. There´s a way to 
communicate on the app but they don´t respond."

So, On Your Side reached out to Tesla and explained the issue.  ... Tesla 
... reactivated the feature  "I´ve sent over 30 emails, every single day 
I´ve been dealing with this and rarely getting a response - it was when you 
all got involved that something finally happened," she said.

We´re glad we got Tesla to fix the issue but Tesla did not make it easy. 
Elon Musk did away with the company´s PR department.

Full story:

https://www.azfamily.com/2023/09/15/tesla-blocks-scottsdale-woman-charging-
her-car/

Shortcut URL: https://v.gd/Rp53yy

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[paul dove via EV]

 Or carry spare batteries.
On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 08:00:20 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> 100 miles on 1kWh? What are you smoking?
> 
> I'm pretty sure even an electric bicycle can't do that.

No; think about it. A bicycle goes about 15 mph. 100 miles / 15 mph 
takes 6.66 hours. 1 KWH is 150 watts for 6.66 hours. Lots of Ebikes have 
200 watt motors. With hard tires and good roads, an Ebike could easily 
do it.

The only challenge is that no normal Ebike has a battery pack that big. 
But you could easily add a battery that big.

Lee
-- 
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Chat concerning a model Y purchase concern. Didn't go well.

[paul dove via EV]

My point was… it says standard range has LFP cells


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 9, 2023, 8:32 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:

 True. However, Manganese will be cheaper yet, and better. Lawrence Rhodes
    On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 06:14:26 PM PDT, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
 Due to their long life, safety, and affordability, Tesla, Ford, and other 
major automakers are switching to LFP batteries in some of their EV models. 
Tesla uses LFP batteries in its Model 3 Standard Range Plus and Model Y 
Standard Range models. 
https://eepower.com/market-insights/tesla-kicks-off-future-of-lfp-batteries-in-evs/#:~:text=Major%20Players%20Switch%20to%20LFP,Model%20Y%20Standard%20Range%20models.
 



Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 9, 2023, 7:56 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:

Here is my Chat with a Tesla expert. Did I do something wrong or was the Tesla 
employee rude...or something else? Lawrence Rhodes
Please connect me with a Tesla expert.
We are connecting you to an agent. The next agent will be available in 1 minute

Successfully reconnected

An agent has joined the chat

Welcome to Tesla. How can I help you?

Which Model Y has LFP or Manganese batteries?

Hi Lawrence!

Thank you for chatting in today. My name is Marvie, and I’m your chat advisor. 
I hope you’re having an electric day!

yes

Will incentives be stable on the Y till next year?

Which Model Y has LFP or Manganese batteries?

We expect them to be reduced.

At Tesla, we prioritize delivering high-quality vehicles that meet our 
customer's needs and exceed their expectations. While we don't typically 
disclose detailed battery specifications, we can assure you that every Tesla 
Model is equipped with top-of-the-line technology and designed to provide 
exceptional performance and efficiency.

Reduced when?

I knew which batteries my III came with. Wouldn't have bought it unless I knew. 
Disclosing battery type is not detailed information.

We all know LFP batteries come on the sub 3oo mile range vehicles...at least 
lately.

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Chat concerning a model Y purchase concern. Didn't go well.

[paul dove via EV]

Due to their long life, safety, and affordability, Tesla, Ford, and other major 
automakers are switching to LFP batteries in some of their EV models. Tesla 
uses LFP batteries in its Model 3 Standard Range Plus and Model Y Standard 
Range models. 
https://eepower.com/market-insights/tesla-kicks-off-future-of-lfp-batteries-in-evs/#:~:text=Major%20Players%20Switch%20to%20LFP,Model%20Y%20Standard%20Range%20models.
 



Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 9, 2023, 7:56 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:

Here is my Chat with a Tesla expert. Did I do something wrong or was the Tesla 
employee rude...or something else? Lawrence Rhodes
Please connect me with a Tesla expert.
We are connecting you to an agent. The next agent will be available in 1 minute

Successfully reconnected

An agent has joined the chat

Welcome to Tesla. How can I help you?

Which Model Y has LFP or Manganese batteries?

Hi Lawrence!

Thank you for chatting in today. My name is Marvie, and I’m your chat advisor. 
I hope you’re having an electric day!

yes

Will incentives be stable on the Y till next year?

Which Model Y has LFP or Manganese batteries?

We expect them to be reduced.

At Tesla, we prioritize delivering high-quality vehicles that meet our 
customer's needs and exceed their expectations. While we don't typically 
disclose detailed battery specifications, we can assure you that every Tesla 
Model is equipped with top-of-the-line technology and designed to provide 
exceptional performance and efficiency.

Reduced when?

I knew which batteries my III came with. Wouldn't have bought it unless I knew. 
Disclosing battery type is not detailed information.

We all know LFP batteries come on the sub 3oo mile range vehicles...at least 
lately.

An agent has left the chat

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[paul dove via EV]

 That's great except for traveling and apartment dwellers. I only use the 
supercharger when on the interstates.
My non-Tesla EV  I only use in the city and charge at home.
On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 04:06:05 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:
> One of the reasons why parking meters went to CC systems is the fact that they
> were continuously broken into and were more costly to maintain since they 
> needed
> someone to empty them of the change.

It's depressing to see how the future is developing. Like the Grateful 
Dead sang, "What a long strange trip it's been".

The impression I get is that "everyone" thinks public charging must 
follow the gas station model. All chargers must be "fast" and cost $5 or 
more to use. These expensive charging stations are frequently vandalized 
and broken.

Everyone drives 100-200 miles every day, and no one can charge at home 
without spending thousands of dollars on a home charging station. So we 
*must* have vast network of public charging stations to match the 
existing network of gas stations.

That's not the only solution, you know. Where I live, there are hundreds 
of free public AC outlets. They've been there for decades, for plugging 
in your ICE's block heaters in the winter. They don't get vandalized, 
except by an occasional errant snowplow. Every EV I've seen already has 
a built-in charger; all it needs is any normal AC outlet. I simply 
charge at home, or plugged in at work so by quitting time, my EV was 
fully charged.

There are parking meters that accept real coins, and meter readers that 
collect the coins (and put the tickets on your car if it's over-parked). 
I have yet to see one that takes credit cards.

There are no gated communities, and people generally don't lock their 
cars or their doors. Theft and vandalism are not enough of a problem to 
worry about.

Lee

-- 
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[paul dove via EV]

There own cheapness brought them to Tesla. They didn’t want to pay for it. 
Wanted the government or someone else to foot the bill.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 28, 2023, 12:44 PM, EV@TucsonEV via EV  
wrote:

https://chargedevs.com/features/how-automakers-disappointment-in-electrify-ameri
ca-drove-them-into-teslas-arms-ev-charging-is-changing-part-1
 

 

EV charging is changing, Part 1: How automakers' disappointment in Electrify
America drove them into Tesla's arms

 

Here's ChargedEV's look at why and how the Tesla NACS became so popular so
quickly.

 

"Overall, this year's developments reflect deep dissatisfaction among automakers
other than Tesla with the state of US fast charging-accompanied by fear that
Tesla's ultra-reliable and deeply integrated Supercharger network has given it a
permanent competitive advantage."

 

"It's hard to overstate the disgust and anger at Electrify America among
virtually every person we interviewed. The network has come to be viewed, fairly
or not, as the most minimal effort VW Group could have exerted to comply with
the 10-year, $2-billion settlement it jointly negotiated with the EPA and the
California Air Resources Board (CARB)"

 

Coming soon:
Part 2: No, NACS is not today's Tesla connector
Part 3: Why Tesla's NACS is unlikely to kill CCS
Part 4: Behind the scenes of seven automakers answer to Tesla's Superchargers 

 

Best regards,

 

Rush Dougherty

TucsonEV

www.TucsonEV.com  

 

 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1204-015 controler replace or repair?

[paul dove via EV]

 Amazon.com: New 1204-015 Cc33788 24V / 36V 275Amp DC Controller for Curtis 
Club Car : Automotive



On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 11:44:15 PM CDT, David Nelson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi,

I have a 1993 Club Car 36V golf cart I'm trying to resurrect for a
charitable organization. I hooked up some batteries to test it out and
it worked for about a minute, then the contactor just clicked on then
off immediately and nothing happens after that. Disconnecting the
battery and reconnecting is the only way to get the contactor to
"click" again. I've checked every microswitch, cleaned the throttle
pot, cleaned the F-N-R mechanical switch contacts, verified that the
contactor works properly when run independently. The series motor
brushes and armature are in excellent shape, and runs fine. I finally
tracked down the Curtis 1204 controller manual and went through the
troubleshooting steps and the best I can determine is that the
controller is not working. During testing today I noticed that the
precharge resistor would get rather hot. Then the contactor quit
clicking on then off like it used to and the resistor no longer would
get warm. Obviously I'm talking about when the contactor was open.
Voltage to the inputs on the controller were normal but there was
never any voltage or current on the output.

It appears that I need to replace or repair the controller. If it were
my golf cart, I'd just buy a $150-$200 clone and call it good but I
don't want it quitting on someone else. Would I be best to ship it to
Curtis or someone like cloudelectric.com to be rebuilt? I haven't
found any used or new Curtis 1204 controllers available.

Thanks,

-- 
David D. Nelson
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 128, Issue 17

[paul dove via EV]

He said supercharger. 
Guess he’s saying the charger checks the Vin #.
Would work on home Tesla chargers 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, June 21, 2023, 3:10 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:


Chargerman CCS Combo 2 to US Tesla Dual(DC+AC) Adapter - Black
Last item available

Condition:NewNewQuantity:Last One / 4 soldPrice:US $229.00They are lying? LR
    On Tuesday, June 20, 2023 at 06:33:31 PM PDT, (-Phil-) 
 wrote:  
 
 No, there is no adapter that will allow existing superchargers to charge a CCS 
car, and if there ever was it would be illegal and shutdown instantly by Tesla 
legal as it would have to be spoofing a Tesla VIN and thus not paying for the 
charge.
I feel like a broken record at this point, as I've said it several times 
already, but my predictions are: 1. Tesla will only allow access for other 
vehicles on V4 superchargers.  2. The network will become substantially less 
reliable for non-Tesla cars.  3. The rollout will be slow, it's  not going to 
be overnight all superchargers with just an adapter.
I've already explained the technical reasons I am asserting this.
I've also warned about using Tesla destination chargers, as some are hooked to 
1 leg of 480 3-phase wye, which is 277V nominal which most EVs will not 
tolerate.   For example, a Leaf will blow it's on-board charger.   Teslas are 
rated up to 300VAC.  Most others top out at 264VAC.  There is no good way to 
tell before you plug your non-Tesla EV in and there's smoke and you are stuck!


( Pic: http://ingineerix.com/pic/?tesla-wc-277v )

On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 5:53 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
wrote:

 It seems to me if there is an adapter available for purchase, that would 
qualify Tesla Superchargers. I bought a Tesla Tap to take advantage of Tesla 
destination EVSE. CCS drivers could buy this and have ac or dc charging. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35483570?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111314%26meid%3Dc1ad667158b04eb79d33fda7ba7b28ee%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D354835758942%26itm%3D35483570%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuWithLambda85KnnRecallV1V4V6ItemNrtInQueryAndCassiniVisualRankerAndBertRecall&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A35483570c1ad667158b04eb79d33fda7ba7b28ee%7Cenc%3AAQAIAAABQA2rugFlOq3qu1cLac%252F%252Fk6Vp0Oa0HaJIqoXKeIiOR%252BTUgsSvHaeyPxKYu6UqHqq7GaGyKVqHQnjeiiXcQpMGw2t3aB%252BssGfjtIWOBj8wExc7oYYP7xGMyQCrHDyDaSaWjB1CueI3A94n0yxXX5dx5gAU%252FT8Fo%252BhA4uBFp%252BOwvsmjMx9svf4%252B372fK2%252Fh1O6bxu3XXlcPikVngfjzVkKfN1lwJYO4DTP0c6sUG2XIHT8T1ZF%252FFEudHDvVkzR0g73ogbAWksoGWUYhm1zt%252F0G2dL4hl8V2wSq543sodOojwXnCYuf2c0C%252BJa530Edy9yIdIlvH1BMdtvgdl0yCCGVp1bdez1hD%252B03XGIvFqhUw2JkLeMVSMa7keDCDqXE%252Fwk3cmo52x29a4WsrQlzr%252Bcj8UmaXoa3muZU2BSJ5pn%252BqeS9u%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675
 LR


  
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Re: [EVDL] need new home ESVE

[paul dove via EV]

Been using mine for four years on my Model S. 
No issues. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 18, 2023, 5:45 PM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

I do not recommend the mobile connector for daily use, it's got pretty thin
cable and has a lot more loss, and eventually the cable seems to fail not
far from the handle.  If you spent many kilobucks on an EV, you can spend
$500 on a wall-mounted EVSE.  Using a portable EVSE for daily use is like
using a garden hose to supply water to your house.

On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 3:34 PM EV@TucsonEV via EV 
wrote:

> I think what Lawrence is referring to is what Tesla calls it's Mobil
> Connector
> https://shop.tesla.com/product/mobile-connector
> It is also called the UMC Gen 2, it has temp sensors in it's wall plug and
> the
> Tesla plug to lower the charging rate if it senses overheating in the
> connectors.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
> > Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2023 9:59 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > Cc: Peri Hartman 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] need new home ESVE
> >
> > Could you provide a link, please ? NACS is a standard, not a product, so
> I'm
> not sure
> > what you are recommending.
> > POeri
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
> > Sent: 18-Jun-23 08:01:04
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] need new home ESVE
> >
> > >  I would recommend the NACS(Tesla mobile adapter). $230. I have seen
> > >NACS to J1772 for $69(60amp). Most robust hardware you can buy. Hard to
> > >beat the price. Comes with 14-50 plug. Lawrence Rhodes
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> >
> > --
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>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day

[paul dove via EV]

There are no card readers on them and they don’t need them. You register your 
car and have a card on file. You just plug in … can’t be simpler than that.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 9, 2023, 4:53 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

On 9 Jun 2023 at 8:04, Tom Keenan via EV wrote:

> I´m curious how Tesla will do billing for non-Tesla vehicles. Will the
> vehicle be identified by the charging station (as Teslas are at
> superchargers?) or will it be via app? 

Dumb question, maybe, but assuming that the terminal is open to all EVs, why 
do they need to identify vehicles at all?  

If the user presents a valid credit card, or maybe an RFID card if you must, 
then let him charge.  Credit cards work just fine for gasoline filling 
stations.  

What am I missing here?

> I also wonder if Tesla will disallow some vehicles (or certain models)
> from charging on the supercharger network if something were to occur,
> such as... a dispute with the other manufacturer? 

Yeah, this. Musk scares me.  I can totally see him doing something like 
this, even if it means losing revenue.

He seems to get weirder and more unpredictable by the day. Watching him 
flush ~$30 billion in value while making Twitter into his own personal 
playground was quite eye--opening.  

I really wonder if he's starting to lose it, maybe partly from overwork.

There'll be adapters to CCS-charge those new NACS Fords and GMs - right?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    Those who would repeat the past must control the teaching 
    of history.
 
                              -- Frank Herbert, "Dune" 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day

[paul dove via EV]

It’s in the new standard mandated by the government.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/15/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-new-standards-and-major-progress-for-a-made-in-america-national-network-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/
 



Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, June 10, 2023, 3:12 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

They want to gather data. It has serious value.

The vehicle "talks" to the charger and exchanges data. Vehicle type. 
Vehicle ID. State of charge. Battery health. _Lots_ of data is given to 
the charger.

Bill D.


On 6/10/2023 9:52 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> On 9 Jun 2023 at 8:04, Tom Keenan via EV wrote:
>
>> I´m curious how Tesla will do billing for non-Tesla vehicles. Will the
>> vehicle be identified by the charging station (as Teslas are at
>> superchargers?) or will it be via app?
> Dumb question, maybe, but assuming that the terminal is open to all EVs, why
> do they need to identify vehicles at all?
>
> If the user presents a valid credit card, or maybe an RFID card if you must,
> then let him charge.  Credit cards work just fine for gasoline filling
> stations.
>
> What am I missing here?
>
>> I also wonder if Tesla will disallow some vehicles (or certain models)
>> from charging on the supercharger network if something were to occur,
>> such as... a dispute with the other manufacturer?
> Yeah, this. Musk scares me.  I can totally see him doing something like
> this, even if it means losing revenue.
>
> He seems to get weirder and more unpredictable by the day. Watching him
> flush ~$30 billion in value while making Twitter into his own personal
> playground was quite eye--opening.
>
> I really wonder if he's starting to lose it, maybe partly from overwork.
>
> There'll be adapters to CCS-charge those new NACS Fords and GMs - right?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
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Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day

[paul dove via EV]

The Tesla service representative told me that adapters (even Tesla adapters) 
are the most likely failure point. They can get hot and melt. I quit using mine 
after he told me.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, June 10, 2023, 1:54 AM, Danny Ames via EV  
wrote:

 Forwarding post from GGEVA group member Randy Spencer 
On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 8:32 AM Randy Spencer via groups.io 
 wrote:

Yes, Tesla is implementing CCS standard 15118 Plug and Charge (as should all 
other Charge Vendors). 
"The user-convenient and secure Plug & Charge feature that envisioned with ISO 
15118 enables an electric vehicle to automatically identify and authorize 
itself to a compatible charging station on behalf of the driver, to receive 
energy for recharging its battery. The only action required by the driver is to 
plug the charging cable into the EV and/or charging station, because the car 
and the charger identify themselves to each other by exchanging certificates 
which were provided beforehand via a certificate pool to facilitate payment.”
That’s the ‘billing' bit that I mentioned earlier, the adapter will be passive 
so communications will go right from the car to the Supercharger or other NACS 
stations.
As to the fuses, I think they are so rare to blow that you’ll be glad to be rid 
of an adapter that did blow, something really bad happened and could have 
caused other damage. If you wanna check the connection more circumspectly 
you’ll need active monitoring and w/o a power source you’d need a battery and 
that could die waiting for you to use the adapter so probably not going to have 
any built like that.

    On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 02:53:13 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 9 Jun 2023 at 8:04, Tom Keenan via EV wrote:

> I´m curious how Tesla will do billing for non-Tesla vehicles. Will the
> vehicle be identified by the charging station (as Teslas are at
> superchargers?) or will it be via app? 

Dumb question, maybe, but assuming that the terminal is open to all EVs, why 
do they need to identify vehicles at all?  

If the user presents a valid credit card, or maybe an RFID card if you must, 
then let him charge.  Credit cards work just fine for gasoline filling 
stations.  

What am I missing here?

> I also wonder if Tesla will disallow some vehicles (or certain models)
> from charging on the supercharger network if something were to occur,
> such as... a dispute with the other manufacturer? 

Yeah, this. Musk scares me.  I can totally see him doing something like 
this, even if it means losing revenue.

He seems to get weirder and more unpredictable by the day. Watching him 
flush ~$30 billion in value while making Twitter into his own personal 
playground was quite eye--opening.  

I really wonder if he's starting to lose it, maybe partly from overwork.

There'll be adapters to CCS-charge those new NACS Fords and GMs - right?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day

[paul dove via EV]

With a Tesla you have an account with cc information already stored.


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On Friday, June 9, 2023, 10:05 AM, Tom Keenan via EV  wrote:

If NACS does become the standard, I’m curious how Tesla will do billing for 
non-Tesla vehicles. Will the vehicle be identified by the charging station (as 
Teslas are at superchargers?) or will it be via app?

I also wonder if Tesla will disallow some vehicles (or certain models) from 
charging on the supercharger network if something were to occur, such as a 
battery recall, a vehicle being reported as being involved in an accident, or 
even a dispute with the other manufacturer?

From the direction of other EVSE providers (such as EA), is it possible to 
modify current EVSE to have both CCS and NACS on the same equipment?  Perhaps 
swap out one of the two CCS cables (such as is done with some Chademo 
installs)? 

Seems odd that EA oftentimes installs two CCS cables on a device that only 
serves one parking space, so that might make more sense. 

Or is it significantly more complicated than adding a digital handshaking part 
for NACS to work with the analog-based CCS stations?

Anecdotally, I’ve noticed that some issues with EA charging stations might be 
related to poor cell signal coverage at some sites. It seems that when I’ve had 
troubles getting EA EVSE to work/process payment, it is typically in a spot 
with less than two bars of cell service. 

Tom Keenan

> On Jun 9, 2023, at 3:35 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> 
> Interesting.  For me, strictly academically so, since neither GM nor Ford 
> now offers an EV that I'd even consider buying.
> 
> Regrettable too that we can't have a worldwide charging standard, and one 
> not dictated by a particular automaker.  
> 
> That second condition may be just the foul aftertaste left by Magne Charge, 
> rammed through by GM.
> 
> CCS Type 2 is the EU standard.  Even Teslas use it here.  Works for me. :-)
> 
> In China it's GB/T.  
> 
> I think that Japan is still "plugging away" with Chademo.  Not that it 
> matters that much, since Japan is even more of an EV laggard than the US, 
> thanks to Toyota's anti-EV influence.  Though I read recently that Toyota's 
> new chairman may be less opposed to EVs.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
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>    designed for in-person shopping. Most have signs outside, adver-
>    tising what they sell. Grocery stores sell food; clothing stores 
>    sell clothing. Home Depot sells homes and depots, Trader Joe's 
>    sells sloppy joes, and Target sells everything but what you wanted.
> 
>                                                        -- Janet Periat
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Re: [EVDL] Which sex buys more EVs?

[paul dove via EV]

My wife sold her Model 3 because chargers are still too isolated in malls 
around shops that have limited hours. She doesn’t travel much alone but wanted 
ice car in case she ever had to.


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On Saturday, June 3, 2023, 12:55 PM, Josh Landess via EV  
wrote:

They finally did put this in near the end:

"...Interestingly, Tesla culture may also play a role in excluding 
women. Men are more likely to invest in and buy Teslas than women, 
possibly in part because Tesla perpetuates a very Silicon Valley 
tech-bro mindset that features a very hostile attitude toward women"

I was reading for this in part because when I have spoken with people 
who will never, under any circumstances, buy an EV from Tesla (basically 
due to their view of Mr. Musk), a number of them (but certainly not all 
of them) are women .  In the US, where the supply of good long range new 
and used non-Tesla BEVs has been constrained, to this day, and where the 
sales have been even further constrained by high prices,  it's hard for 
me to say why it seems logical that the purchase of BEVs skews toward 
one gender more than the other, but it does seem somehow to make it fit.


On 5/23/2023 4:31 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

> It's not really a surprise, and it tracks with anecdotes I've heard.
>
> It's preliminary and possibly sketchy research, but it suggests that men are
> markedly more likely than women to buy and continue using EVs.
>
> https://jalopnik.com/theres-a-massive-gender-gap-when-it-comes-to-buying-and-
> 1847862805
>
> alternate link: https://v.gd/NoUnbF
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>
>      These are horrible times to be a science-fiction writer. All
>      the dystopian scenarios you can dream up become real before
>      you've even finished the first draft.
>
>                                  -- Anonymous
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Re: [EVDL] charging infrastructure [EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14]

[paul dove via EV]

It is easily solved. Put chargers in every gas station. Wouldn’t need many. 
There’s usually several gas stations at every exit on a highway and every few 
blocks in a city


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On Sunday, June 4, 2023, 1:16 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

Right now, most of us can tolerate a poorly maintained charging 
infrastructure. Charging at home means infrequent use of level 3 
charging. Recently I was in France and, talking to my cousins and other 
people, they complain of the same thing. It may be slightly better there 
than US but it's still a large hindrance for EV acceptance.

Soon, though, if we expect urban dwellers without off street parking to 
buy EVs, we're going to have to have a more reliable system. Like my 
cousins, two of which have no off street parking, what are people to do 
if they can't easily recharge once a week at a local level 3 station ? 
We can't assume the charge-at-home model much longer.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Tom Hudson via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Tom Hudson" ; "EV List Lackey" 

Sent: 04-Jun-23 09:38:25
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14

>Watching a lot of YouTube EV content, non-Tesla charging infrastructure is a 
>sad joke. Kyle Connor of "Out of Spec Motors" has been reporting on CCS 
>charging, including Electrify America, and it's not a pretty picture. It's not 
>uncommon for an EA charging station with four units to have three that are 
>inoperable. For WEEKS. It's worse in winter, when their choice of hardware 
>can't cope with low temperatures. The "All Electric Family", out in Nebraska, 
>had to be towed on at least one occasion due to inoperable CCS chargers 
>(including EA). There are numerous accounts of people having to stay at a 
>hotel as a result of being unable to charge on non-Tesla hardware.I don't know 
>what people expected from EA, an entity born of the Dieselgate scandal and 
>VW's lies -- they cobbled together equipment that wasn't designed to be used 
>in vehicle charging, wasn't intended for outdoor use with wide temperature 
>variations, didn't set up adequate maintenance schedules and called it a 
>day.Ford seems t
 o
>  have effectively called it quits with CCS after CEO Jim Farley experienced 
>some of this on an EV trip with his family (and I'm sure, outcry from 
>customers who have to deal with this fiasco). They're switching to Tesla's 
>NACS solution -- so much easier to use (the charging plug is a fraction of the 
>size and slides into the port with zero effort) and vastly more reliable -- in 
>5 years of owning our Model 3, I think I've only seen TWO chargers out of 
>order in hundreds of SuperCharger visits.Ford is only the first domino to 
>fall, I think. Other manufacturers will (if they're smart) undoubtedly decide 
>to go with the solution that costs them less money and delivers better 
>customer experience.As we all know, 99% of day-to-day charging is done at home 
>and DC fast charging is primarily for road trips. But when you take a trip, 
>the charging has to be there -- enough locations and enough FUNCTIONAL 
>chargers per location -- to make it practical.If I didn't drive a Tesla, a 
>road trip would be
  a
>  miserable exercise in "Range Anxiety" -- something my wife and I actually 
>joke about on road trips, considering our first EV had less than 50 miles of 
>range (just 17% of our Model 3's range) and no fast charging.-TomSent from my 
>Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chinese EVs are headed for the US

[paul dove via EV]

Tesla Model 3 outsells the Camry in several of there too markets. Model Y 
outsells the RAV4.


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On Thursday, May 25, 2023, 2:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

I think the direction of Tesla's future is quite unknown. Musk is about 
as unpredictable as you can imagine. Further, just because they have 
pursued the luxury market doesn't imply that's their long term 
trajectory. Now that they have their manufacturing process well 
established, they very well may be able to make a low cost car, 
competitive with the Chinese (and presumably better quality).

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 25-May-23 10:07:25
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chinese EVs are headed for the US

>EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>>Say goodbye to the US car market as we know it: Cheap Chinese EVs are
>>coming.
>
>Danny Ames via EV wrote:
>>I disagree that Tesla is about to lose its crown... Tesla is not
>>going to lose its lead anytime, soon if ever.
>
>I suspect the future lies somewhere between these two extremes.
>
>Tesla isn't going to go away any time soon; but they are likely to remain in 
>the performance/luxury car market, like Porsche and Ferrari.
>
>The Chinese are going to take over the lower end of the market, which is being 
>under-served by all the US carmakers.
>
>Lee
>
>-- Problems and solutions always come together. They just don't arrive in the 
>same box.
>--
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
>-- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>www.avast.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla's reputation takes a hit

[paul dove via EV]

It’s worse than that… history shows that people resist change and it seems 
especially technology changes. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, May 24, 2023, 7:47 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
wrote:

 Out of more than 100 models, the Tesla Model Y is the highest-scoring car 
tested by Euro NCAP since 2020, when it introduced the latest testing criteria. 
It gained a total score of 364 out of 400, putting it more than 10 marks ahead 
of other top- performing models such as the Smart #1 and Mercedes EQE. This the 
most important feature of Tesla vehicles. Polls change due to reality. People 
are slow to catch on. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

Yes one that wouldn’t go as far or charge as fast as the Tesla he owns now. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, May 23, 2023, 5:25 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

On 22 May 2023 at 21:30, Josh Landess via EV wrote:

> Tesla had replaced it 
> under warranty with a 90 (they don't make 70 any more) that they had 
> locked to 70.  

This is one of the things that infuriates me about Tesla.  The idea of 
making a capable product, then artificially and deliberately limiting it 
with your hand out for more money, seems somehow immoral to me. 

I wouldn't buy a BMW with their infamous seat warmer subscription, either.

I think such corporations deserve a few "moneylenders in the temple" slaps.

I hate crippleware software, too.  I'm a FLOSS kinda guy.  

In fact for decades I've wished for an "open source" EV, and/or one offered 
by a nonprofit company.

> Bottom line, I'd be ok to say yes now to upgrading (at about $22k):
> - if I could get a refreshed straight answer from Tesla as to how much 
> it costs (surprisingly difficult) and what I get for the money
> - if there was not an occasional concern about trustworthiness of the 
> automaker (but I suppose this goes for others too)
> - if the CEO was not taking so many morally questionable positions.

Wow!  You must really like your Tesla.  For $22,000 you can almost buy an 
entire other-make brand new EV with zero miles on it. Heck, if you wre in 
the EU you could get one for less than $22k, but it wouldn't have the range 
you're used to.

And I'd just about bet that $22k would get you a pretty nice lightly-used 
much newer EV of a different brand.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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    enemies barbarians.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

In a statement, Tesla explains that it is a software limitation to optimize for 
the best possible owner experience that’s within the limits of physics. Here’s 
the statement in full:


“The peak charging rate possible in a li-ion cell will slightly decline after a 
very large number of high-rate charging sessions. This is due to physical and 
chemical changes inside of the cells.  Our fast-charge control technology is 
designed to keep the battery safe and to preserve the maximum amount of cell 
capacity (range capability) in all conditions.  To maintain safety and retain 
maximum range, we need to slow down the charge rate when the cells are too 
cold, when the state of charge is nearly full, and also when the conditions of 
the cell change gradually with age and usage.  This change due to age and usage 
may increase total Supercharge time by about 5 minutes and less than 1% of our 
customers experience this.

Tesla is not slowing down charge rates to discourage frequent Supercharging – 
quite the opposite.  We encourage our customers to use the Supercharger network 
at their discretion and we committed to doubling the number of worldwide 
chargers just this year.  We also want to ensure that our customers have the 
best experience at those Superchargers and preserve as much vehicle range as 
possible – even after frequent usage.”



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On Sunday, May 21, 2023, 4:49 AM, Josh Landess via EV  wrote:

Phil, thanks for these points.

On the slow supercharging thing, I feel like I've put myself in Tesla's 
hands, and if I go against them in any way, then I would be at risk of 
losing the free supercharging, so I am just living with it.

With that said, I took some notes (pictures of my dashboard) of my 
supercharging session 'tonight.

started a supercharging session at 44%: 62 kW
76%: 32kW
89%: 18 kW

If I combine this with the small size of my battery (~70 kWh when new) 
then it is arduous to try and road trip.  I hate to say it but given the 
late entry of other manufacturers into this competition with their first 
efforts (Audi e-tron, etc.) it's hard for a used-car-buyer mentality 
like mine to justify getting out of the Tesla that quickly.  I'm still 
thinking maybe to buy a ~90 kWh upgrade, until such vehicles as the 
Equinox come along, and maybe have been in the ecosystem for a year or 
two (or maybe splurge and take advantage of the tax credit).  That may 
sound frivolous, but another complicating factor for me is that I know I 
will lose a lot of money going through conventional auto dealers  At 
least with Tesla I know up-front what the financial damage will be.

Josh

On 5/18/2023 8:23 AM, (-Phil-) wrote:
> I have over 3000 salvage and unsupported Teslas connected to my 
> server, Most of them are older Model S.  I very rarely see an owner 
> need to replace a battery pack.  The worst of the repairs needed on 
> older Model S is the drive unit.  There was a known engineering flaw 
> on units made before about 2015. Followed by occasional contactor 
> failure.  By 2015 the Model S was very reliable, Tesla had fixed 
> almost all of the problems from 2012-2014.
>
> Degradation of the battery pack is a pretty slow stable thing, not a 
> phenomenon where you wake up one day and you need a new battery.  
> Tesla recently revealed the average battery capacity (and range) 
> degradation figures.  According to what I saw, the average battery 
> capacity lost after 200k miles is 12%.   This jives almost perfectly 
> with the data I have seen on the ~3000 cars connected to my server.
> Article: 
> https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-degradation-average-2022/
>
> Now the slow supercharging is most definitely a thing.  As I said in 
> my previous email, I routinely downgrade owners to software before the 
> 2019.16.x "hobble".   Almost all of my clients elect to keep older 
> software when I inform them that moving to newer will only take away 
> capacity and charging speed and result in a more laggy touchscreen 
> interface.
>
> On cars 2015 and newer, they are very reliable.  Most maintenance 
> consists of Windshield Washer fluid, Occasionally a set of tires, and 
> a new 12v battery every 4-6 years.   I also recommend drive unit fluid 
> changes every 50k miles. Most owners might have to put on a set of 
> brake pads somewhere North of 100k.
>
> There is a flaw in the early Model S ball joints and fore links where 
> they were incorrectly hardened which can cause them to fail suddenly.  
> I've had it happen on 3 of my cars, and heard from countless others 
> about this.  It's my biggest complaint about the Model S, and I think 
> there should have been a recall over it.  (There was in China for the 
> same cars).
>
> Other than that just some minor and relatively inexpensive niggles for 
> older cars.  The door handles, the trunk latch and cinching motor, 
> power window regulators, Falcon wing doors and door latches on the 
> Model X.   (Don't b

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

So, according to google a leaf in 2015 was 33 to $36k.
I paid $42k for my model 3 in 2018. 



Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, May 18, 2023, 2:23 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:



On 5/17/23 18:49, paul dove via EV wrote:
> So, what is your alternative. A leaf?

We've owned a 2015 leaf S (24kwh battery) since 2017 and it has been 
rock solid.

We are currently also trying out a 2021 Leaf Plus (2nd gen  -62 kwh 
battery) and have been very pleased with it as well.

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

I believe most of the Tesla fans actually own one and most of the skeptics 
never have and probably never drove one.


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On Wednesday, May 17, 2023, 4:06 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

On 17 May 2023 at 6:52, Josh Landess via EV wrote:

> > "...I don't know that you have noticed, but there is quite a bit of 
> > Tesla negativism" here on EVDL.  I fail to understand it. ..."
> >

I wouldn't say that there's "quite a bit of Tesla negativism" here. Maybe it 
seems that way to the folks who are devoted Tesla fans and loyalists.  

There are a few of us who have reservations about Tesla's cars, Tesla, 
and/or its CEO.  There are also a few who seem to have unswerving loyalty to 
the cars, the company, and the CEO.  I think that the two sides probably 
just about balance out.

> As for myself, I have mixed views.  They do not balance out to exactly
> "equal", but I try to give credit ... I guess I have a summary view on
> certain things.  

I haven't taken a survey and I don't plan to, but my impression is that most 
people here also fall somewhere in the middle.

> In the particular case of the issue under discussion (incentives for
> giving up vehicles equipped with the free supercharging), I do think
> there is possibly (but not definitely) an element of sleaze to Tesla's
> throttling some packs to charge at such slow rates that the owner is
> incentivized to get rid of the vehicle. 

I expect that the diehard Tesla lovers will find a way to justify just about 
anything that others might call sleaze.  

Meanwhile, the Tesla skeptics willl say that it confirms what they always 
suspected.  

Let's face it - questionable or sleazy business practice is par for the 
libertarian-capitalist course.  Nothing is more important than "shareholder 
value," ya know.

In that way Tesla is pretty much like everybody else.  

Maybe it's just me, but that seems kind of disappointing from a company that 
used to talk up how they were going to save the world from ... whatever.  

Oh, also, "Don't be evil."

So it goes.

Thanks to Tesla for advancing the state of the art in EVs, and for showing 
other automakers, drivers, and *governments* what's possible.

But NO thanks to Tesla for breaking laws - for example VOC limits - and 
labor standards.  I read that they were also hit with more than 800 
environmental lawsuits in Germany. It's amazing what Tesla get away with, 
usually with, at most, just a little slap on the wrist.

NO thanks to Tesla for the way they've often treated their factory workers, 
expecially women and minorities.  Lawsuits there too.

And NO thanks to Tesla for control-freaking their cars.  As Phil and Sharkey 
suggest, If they can take away features without asking you, you don't really 
own your Tesla.

Tesla is far from the only game in town for EVs.  USians have many more 
choices now than 10 years ago, and the selection is even wider in Europe.    
So I think it's a good thing having a Tesla-preference balance here on the 
list, and talking about it.  That way you're well informed when you decide 
where you're going to spend your hard earned EV bucks.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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    children, neither will you.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

So, what is your alternative. A leaf?
They were the only ones that made a usable vehicle. 
Now if they had a bunch of competitors this would be reasonable criticism but 
nobody else was doing anything.


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On Wednesday, May 17, 2023, 11:08 AM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

To be clear, I love every Tesla I've owned, and I think overall Tesla is a
great company, but it's not without its problems:

The older S/X models don't have the charge port, wiring or contactors to
reliably support supercharging at over 400A, which in practice is about
150kW.  Starting in software 2019.16.x Tesla started limiting most all of
the older pack IDs to substantially less than this limit to supposedly
"prolong pack life".  They did not give owners a choice in this matter,
which I believe is wrong.  They "took away" a capability without owner
consultation.  It's done. Period!

Another example: In 2015 people started seeing this alert
"BMS_a159_wotCycleCounter" and had their cars performance capped at 300kW,
even if they had paid good money for a "Performance" model.  This was
triggered regardless of actual conditions after 2500 full "go pedal"
(accelerator) stomps, even if only for a few milliseconds.  I was one of
the people who exposed this "CounterGate" and eventually forced Tesla to
walk this back.  (I also reset the counter on a number of cars before they
did)  It's unethical to "take away" a feature of the car by remote
software update and yet that's what they did with zero owner notification.
They almost never release proper release notes for the software updates, so
hapless owners install them blindly.  Had they stated this up-front in the
purchase agreement or at least in the owner's manual, then maybe they would
have had a leg to stand on, but they didn't.

The aforementioned 2019.16.x Range and supercharging speed neuter is
another example of this 4 years later.  I have rolled software back to
prior versions for many owners who are quite reasonably pissed that Tesla
unceremoniously took capability away.  It would be fine if they gave owners
the option of "extending pack life" but they just universally clamped this
limit on ALL models regardless of pack condition.

Also, as most of you know, when Tesla catches wind that a car has been
branded "Salvage", or taken out of its original home market, they flag the
car as "unsupported" in their systems.  They used to deny ANY parts
purchase for any car so flagged, but luckily they finally walked that
policy back.  Since 2014 they had been removing supercharging from such
flagged Model S/X cars, even if the car was sold with "free unlimited
supercharging".  Model 3/Y were left alone until sometime in 2020, and then
they too began seeing their supercharging disabled, even if they had been
charging fine for years!  They do this by accessing the car remotely over
the cell network and modifying the car's configuration in the car itself.
This is a felony under federal law as far as I understand the Computer
Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA), codified under Title 18 U.S. Code § 1030.  I
have restored supercharging on over 2000 cars since 2015 where Tesla
illegally disabled it.  If Tesla chose to ban these cars from their
network, that would be one thing, it's their network, but they are doing so
by modifying YOUR car without YOUR permission.  That's not really far off
from having a couple of guys show up in a Model X at 11pm and remove the
21" performance wheels you paid a premium for and leave you with 19" steel
wheels!

Starting a few months ago after 7 years of crippling cars for a weak
excuse, they now finally offer a way to get your supercharging restored,
though it will cost you dearly and it's not guaranteed.  Here is the
document outlining their policy:
https://www.docdroid.net/z3UM0m9/tn-18-00-001-unsupported-vehicle-policy-r3-pdf

To see their prior policy where they 100% refuse to allow supercharging,
EVEN with an inspection:
https://www.scribd.com/document/425591536/TN-18-00-001-Unsupported-Vehicle-Policy

How many other things have they taken away secretly?

-Phil

On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:53 AM Josh Landess via EV 
wrote:

>
> On 5/16/2023 11:41 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> >
> > "...I don't think it is cost effective to replace a battery when it
> > starts losing significant range..."
> > []
> > "I don't personally drive the 13S85 but feel like I could live with
> > reduced SuperCharging power rather than attempt to sue Tesla over the
> > issue.  If the limit were down to 40kw, I would be far more
> > assertive/aggressive. ..."
> >
> > The max I've seen is about 70 kW, but it quickly gets below 60, then
> > 50, then 40.  I've had it checked out by the local service center and
> > made sure they took the request seriously and they both told me that
> > it is performing within spec, that they could upgrade the battery to
> > 90 from 70 for something like $22k (new) or less if I was ok with a
> > battery that was not as fresh (I don't remembe

Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric Vehicle

[paul dove via EV]

Here, you guys can get one of these.
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-outsold-china-hong-guang-mini-ev-2021-5?


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On Wednesday, May 17, 2023, 6:29 PM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

Since we are railing against the "Man" today (Auto Manufacturers):

https://jalopnik.com/toyota-focusing-on-hybrids-not-electric-vehicles-1850440908
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

Only by a select few and I don’t understand it either 


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On Tuesday, May 16, 2023, 1:41 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:


On 5/16/23 12:53, Josh Landess wrote:
> It looks like you have quite a bit of first-hand knowledge in this 
> area. What speeds do you get on your older free supercharging (the 
> older models that have the free supercharging for the life of the 
> vehicle).

My 13S85 now does not charge above about 85kw.  That came about after 
Tesla "repaired" the original battery which had resulted in a 
stranding.  Though I've complained several times, I've received no 
explanation.  I suspect that they are limiting liability for future 
battery replacements.

Even with about the same mileage, my 18M3 still hits 250kw on those 
250kw chargers.  That vintage car probably has batteries that will take 
the higher charge rate.  AND they pre-heat when they know they are 
heading to SuperCharger.  That pre-heat thing is surprisingly effective 
in maximizing charge rates.  The 18M3 can hit 1000mph because they get 
more miles per kwh.

Older free SuperCharging cars are less desirable because newer hardware 
has quite a few advantages.  I have had the 13S85 for sale for a long 
while at a premium price; it has not sold for my asking price (I value 
the SuperCharging).  The 13S85 does not even have navigation.  Of 
course, no AP/FSD.  No pre-heating.  Now, only the very newest cars with 
"hardware 4" are likely to make good FSD cars.  Though my 18M3 
("hardware 3") is doing VERY well with FSD software.

>
> With respect to the $2k offer that you mention, that is interesting, 
> that they had that.  My questions include
> - how much would a 10 or 20 year old model s be worth in the 
> marketplace, if it is well-maintained (such as with updated upholstery 
> when needed), if it has free transferable supercharging for the life 
> of the vehicle, and if the supercharger speeds and batteries are 
> updated and legit?  $30k?  $60k?   More?  Or perhaps not much more 
> than a comparable vehicle lacking the free transferable 
> life-of-vehicle supercharging.  (keeping in mind that what we are 
> talking about here is road-tripping as much as one wishes for one's 
> entire life, in a sports sort-of-luxury vehicle without paying a dime 
> for electricity other than non-road-trips, or elected L2 charging such 
> as at hotels).
I don't think it is cost effective to replace a battery when it starts 
losing significant range.  It is not clear to me what a new battery 
might do in an older car.  Or, if newer batteries can even be installed 
in older cars.  I've seen customer paid battery replacements priced 
about $15k.  Long ago, in order to alleviate fear of reduced capacity, 
Tesla offered to sell cars with an extra battery for additional cost of 
$10k.  The customer was to decide when (or if) the replacement battery 
was to be installed.  I do not know anyone who took advantage of that 
offer.
> - if the vehicle at some point in the future starts to reflect a 
> higher marketplace valuation, how does one reasonably insure it? i.e.: 
> at present, if one just buys normal insurance, I'm not sure a value is 
> put on the presence of free transferable life-of-vehicle supercharging.
I think transferable free SuperCharging clearly has SOME premium value.  
I am unable to quantify that premium.  I nearly sold 13S85 a couple of 
times to people who clearly placed some value on it.  At least one of 
those sales was lost to someone else who offered similar car at a lower 
price.
> - how much is this valuation impaired if we know that the average 
> speeds over the course of a 20% to 80% charge are held to x (such as 
> 45 kW)?  (and side-question, at what point would enough lawyers and 
> drivers sue Tesla and possibly win for failure to deliver 
> "supercharging" as it is commonly understood?  40 kW?  30 kW? Less?)

I don't personally drive the 13S85 but feel like I could live with 
reduced SuperCharging power rather than attempt to sue Tesla over the 
issue.  If the limit were down to 40kw, I would be far more 
assertive/aggressive.  That car's maximum observed charge power was not 
much over 100kw, certainly below 120kw.  Early in it's life, 
SuperChargers were 90kw.  After a few years, 120kw came along.  Then, 
150kw.  Now, 250kw.   Think all SuperChargers are now either 150 
or250kw.  Disregarding "Urban SuperChargers".

In Texas, I've seen SuperChargers going from none to five.  At five, we 
were an island; we could easily travel to all the more highly populated 
parts of the state.  Now, we have hundreds of SuperChargers and all 
parts of the state are reachable.  Though some places are a minor 
challenge.  I have been able to easily get to Big Bend even though the 
nearest SuperCharger is in Ft Stockton which is perhaps 75 miles out 
side the park boundaries.

Right now, I'm planning a trip to Alaska via the Alcan Highway. I was in 
the area before Covid but turned around 150-200 miles no

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: "The end of the internal combustion engine" via China

[paul dove via EV]

 Those are interesting observations to me. I don't believe that GM will go out 
of business because our government will keep them a float no matter how badly 
they manage their business same with the others. like they did for 
Crysler more than once.
Heck last year the state of Michigan gave GM a billion in tax incentives to 
build an electric vehicle plant.
The government is paying for their whole charging infrastructure.
On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 10:14:20 PM CDT, Tom Hudson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 We started our EV journey with our Solectria Force in 1997, and after 
retiring our Force after 21 (!) years (due to rust; all the EV 
components work like new and are in storage) we drive a Tesla Model 3. 
After all those years of driving one of the few EVs in the state of 
Wisconsin, it's kind of surreal to be driving through our little city of 
11,000 and seeing multiple Model Ys (and Model 3s) driving around or 
parked in driveways. Seeing the recent sales numbers on Model Ys, it 
does look like Musk's prediction will be spot-on. It's just awesome to 
see EVs becoming mainstream.

Our Saturday morning ritual here is to watch the Electrek podcast on 
YouTube while having breakfast. This week they mentioned that GM is 
killing the Bolt, which is their most popular EV. We paused the video 
and talked a bit about how GM totally screwed the pooch when they killed 
the EV-1 (which we rented and drove in California back in 1999 or so) -- 
they could absolutely have OWNED the EV market if they had kept going. 
Now an upstart like Tesla is wiping up the floor with them because they 
didn't have any foresight or a vision of a future beyond ICE. And Toyota 
has been fighting the inevitable future, trying to kill EV incentives. 
And Ford is making an attempt to move forward, but getting NEGATIVE 40 
percent margins on their EVs.  All the big auto industry players should 
have seen the writing on the wall, but kept their blinders on and now 
they're scrambling to catch up -- they never set up the kind of vertical 
integration Tesla has, nor did they make any deals for raw battery 
materials. And one reason Tesla is kicking ass with never-before-seen 
auto industry margins on the Model Y is their relentless, continuous 
manufacturing improvements like the single front and rear castings.

The legacy ICE manufacturers are true dinosaurs and will be a textbook 
example of how companies with no vision will be extinct. As for GM, 
makers of the abomination of the Hummer EV, who in the name of crushing 
the CARB mandates snatched all the EV-1s from the owners who were 
begging to be able to keep them, and crushed them, I say "good 
riddance". I'm no big Elon Musk fan, but it's just a dream to see that 
the Model Y is on its way to being the most popular car of any kind in 
the world.

-Tom

On 4/22/2023 1:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:
> Elon Musk May Have Been Right, His Tesla Model Y Guess Could Come True
>
> Tesla CEO Elon Musk often gets to prove to people that he was right all 
> along, and another such opportunity may come soon enough.
>
> Tesla CEO Elon Musk said some time ago that the Model Y would outsell all of 
> Tesla's other cars, and by a wide margin. This came as a surprise since it's 
> much more expensive than the popular Model 3. The CEO went on to predict that 
> the Model Y would eventually become the best-selling car in the world. Many 
> people thought he was crazy, but there's a much better chance of it actually 
> happening than you might think.
>
> When the Tesla Model Y first debuted, it was a bit of a disappointment to 
> many people. The entire unveiling ceremony revolved around the history of 
> Tesla, and the electric crossover was barely present. When it was finally 
> shown, it wasn't shown in great detail, and there was no look at the third 
> row. All you could really tell was that it wasn't much more than an inflated 
> Model 3.
>
> That said, the Model Y has been selling exceedingly well across the globe. In 
> fact, it already made some top sales lists in 2022, and Tesla's sales stand 
> to be much stronger in 2023. While many people love to pick on Elon Musk for 
> his wild ideas and terrible timelines, he often proves them wrong. Sure, 
> there are some promises Musk has made that have come true very late or still 
> not come to fruition, but many of his dreams people doubted years ago are 
> already a reality.
>
> If all continues to move forward as it has thus far this year, Musk could 
> have another "I told you so" moment.
>
>
>
>
> According to Electrek, Musk said in 2016 that the Model Y would create demand 
> for 500,000 to 1,000,000 units per year and eventually become the world's 
> best-selling passenger car of any kind. Keep in mind, it didn't even come to 
&

Re: [EVDL] A123 battery charger

[paul dove via EV]

Charge at 3A to 3.6 v cc cv till current drops to C/20. Any lithium iron 
phosphate charger will work


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On Thursday, April 27, 2023, 10:40 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:

 I have some left over A123 Systems ANR2665M1A cells. I would like to use a few 
to power some flashlights. What charger works with these cells? Seems the 
specifications call for a different voltage than 18650s due to iron chemistry. 
Thanks, Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

Sorry, poor choice of words. I meant it didn’t cost you 94k or even what they 
go for used say in NADA. Most people wouldn’t tackle a project like this. 
Tesla does go by vin numbers because how else would they know who to charge? 
Still seems like you could use a CCS to Tesla adapter on a CCS charger. 


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On Monday, April 24, 2023, 8:57 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
wrote:

Paul wrote: "I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value."
Not sure - it was listed on Craigslist (I always buy private) so
anyone was able to make an offer, mine was just the first to be
accepted, so I think it was market value.
But then - what is market value for a 2013 S85 w dual charger
(original $94k) that is now salvage, has lost Supercharging, has a bad
battery (only bottom 15% available, range indication 37mi) needs work
on 3 door handles, has a shattered left rear quarter window, loose
front bumper cover, cosmetic damage to right rear fender, rear bumper
and hatch? 120k mi. Tell me your estimation and I will tell you if I
paid that or it was under market value. I spent $200 and many hours on
replacing a battery module (bought a 2013 module for $1k and sold the
*Tesla refurbished but unbalanced* 2012 module for $800; replaced the
module myself), bought and replaced the window (ignoring the cost for
a tube of goop), bought 3 stainless steel gears for the failing door
handle presenters and bolted down the front bumper cover. The cosmetic
damage is still there, but I now have a 230mi salvage but wonderfully
driving vehicle, still with cosmetic damage and only capable of
charging at max 20kW (240V 80A AC) so normally only 11.5kW (48A).
Though I will likely sell it this summer as I have too many EVs
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:52 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>
>  Yes, that would be if you exclusively charged at superchargers.
> I have never done that I would guess most people charge at home because of 
> convenience.
> My supercharging is less that 20% of my charging.
> I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value.
>    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 03:45:32 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV 
> wrote:
>
>  In my PG&E service area, once you are over baseline consumption the
> minimum charge is $0.35 per kWh. So for me that charge would be well
> over a grand per year.
> My 2013 S used to have unlimited free supercharging, but the previous
> owner had a fender bender on the right rear quarter panel and as
> result, Tesla disabled all DC Fast Charging.
> This means that even the CHAdeMO converter that was bought for the car
> is now useless.
> Luckily I am an experienced EV'er so I always plan ahead and almost
> never need public charging anyway, but last year the wife and I were
> planning a 350 mi one way trip (Bay Area to LA) and despite having an
> abundance of DC Fast Charge to choose from along the 5 Freeway, we
> were looking at a minimum 1.5 hours stop for AC slow-ish charging
> (hopefully 48A because my S has the dual charger and can go up to 80A
> despite no public charger of that speed is available). Minimum 1.5h,
> which I would only reach if I drive constant 55MPH (and no Airco) on
> the I-5 which can be... hairy because ALL traffic is going 70+ there.
> I have considered pestering Tesla to *at least* re-enable DC Fast
> Charging, even if I can't use the Supercharging network, but I heard
> from others that Tesla's method of disabling Supercharging is by
> turning DCFC off in the car, which is... stupid and unnecessary, I am
> *sure* that the Supercharging network can identify cars - how else can
> they enable other cars to start using their Superchargers?
> Unhappily yours,
> Cor.
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:27 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
> >
> >  Interesting article.
> > I have a Model S with unlimited supercharging and I have never heard of 
> > this offer.
> > So, how exactly is Tesla trying to get us to give up free supercharging?
> > It appears that it is an incentive to try and sell new cars which don't 
> > have free supercharging rather than a ploy to take it away from current 
> > owners.
> > Especially since the only way one would know of it is if they were shopping 
> > for a new Tesla.
> > They removed free supercharging years ago as an option.
> > I doubt it swayed many people to upgrade that weren't already in the market 
> > especially because like the article said it was only on a trade-in and 
> > everyone knows you can get more for your vehicle if you sell it 
> > yourself. though maybe not $5000 so you might consider a trade in for 
> > ease if you aren't losing money.
> > To be honest though, unless you drive a lot it doesn't save much to have 
> > free supercharging.
> &

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

 Yes, that would be if you exclusively charged at superchargers.
I have never done that I would guess most people charge at home because of 
convenience.
My supercharging is less that 20% of my charging.
I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value.
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 03:45:32 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 In my PG&E service area, once you are over baseline consumption the
minimum charge is $0.35 per kWh. So for me that charge would be well
over a grand per year.
My 2013 S used to have unlimited free supercharging, but the previous
owner had a fender bender on the right rear quarter panel and as
result, Tesla disabled all DC Fast Charging.
This means that even the CHAdeMO converter that was bought for the car
is now useless.
Luckily I am an experienced EV'er so I always plan ahead and almost
never need public charging anyway, but last year the wife and I were
planning a 350 mi one way trip (Bay Area to LA) and despite having an
abundance of DC Fast Charge to choose from along the 5 Freeway, we
were looking at a minimum 1.5 hours stop for AC slow-ish charging
(hopefully 48A because my S has the dual charger and can go up to 80A
despite no public charger of that speed is available). Minimum 1.5h,
which I would only reach if I drive constant 55MPH (and no Airco) on
the I-5 which can be... hairy because ALL traffic is going 70+ there.
I have considered pestering Tesla to *at least* re-enable DC Fast
Charging, even if I can't use the Supercharging network, but I heard
from others that Tesla's method of disabling Supercharging is by
turning DCFC off in the car, which is... stupid and unnecessary, I am
*sure* that the Supercharging network can identify cars - how else can
they enable other cars to start using their Superchargers?
Unhappily yours,
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:27 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>
>  Interesting article.
> I have a Model S with unlimited supercharging and I have never heard of this 
> offer.
> So, how exactly is Tesla trying to get us to give up free supercharging?
> It appears that it is an incentive to try and sell new cars which don't have 
> free supercharging rather than a ploy to take it away from current owners.
> Especially since the only way one would know of it is if they were shopping 
> for a new Tesla.
> They removed free supercharging years ago as an option.
> I doubt it swayed many people to upgrade that weren't already in the market 
> especially because like the article said it was only on a trade-in and 
> everyone knows you can get more for your vehicle if you sell it yourself. 
> though maybe not $5000 so you might consider a trade in for ease if you 
> aren't losing money.
> To be honest though, unless you drive a lot it doesn't save much to have free 
> supercharging.
> I used 3561 Kwh in the last 12 months. I pay $0.11 a kwh at home and I 
> believe the same at a supercharger in my area.
> So, roughly $400 a year. Even if you double that to $800 a year it takes a 
> long time to get to $5000.
> Plus it says they were offering 6 years free supercharging to boot.
> I don't see how this is in any way a negative but just extra incentive to 
> upgrade if you were looking to..
>
>    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:18:44 AM CDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
>  Tesla tries to get owners to give up `unlimited free Supercharging for life´
>
> Fred Lambert | Apr 24 2023 - 12:25 am PT
>
> "Tesla is trying again to get owners of older Model S and Model X with
> unlimited free Supercharging for life to give up the perk  ...
>
> "Current Tesla Model S or Model X owners with active unlimited free
> Supercharging are eligible for 6 years of unlimited Supercharging. To
> qualify, owners must trade in or remove unlimited Supercharging from their
> vehicle and take delivery of a new Model S or Model X by June 30, 2023 ...
>
> "It´s interesting that Tesla is just now trying hard to get people off of
> the unlimited free Supercharging just as it appears to try to make
> Supercharging a profit center - something it originally said it wouldn´t do.
>
> "With non-Tesla EV drivers now getting access to the network, it looks like
> Tesla is now looking to see what the Supercharger network would look like as
> a full-scale money-making charging network."
>
> Complete article:
>
> https://electrek.co/2023/04/24/tesla-triesowners-give-up-unlimited-free-
> supercharging-for-life/
>
> or https://v.gd/vBwnXc
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>    Reporter

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[paul dove via EV]

 Interesting article.
I have a Model S with unlimited supercharging and I have never heard of this 
offer.
So, how exactly is Tesla trying to get us to give up free supercharging?
It appears that it is an incentive to try and sell new cars which don't have 
free supercharging rather than a ploy to take it away from current owners.
Especially since the only way one would know of it is if they were shopping for 
a new Tesla.
They removed free supercharging years ago as an option.
I doubt it swayed many people to upgrade that weren't already in the market 
especially because like the article said it was only on a trade-in and everyone 
knows you can get more for your vehicle if you sell it yourself. though 
maybe not $5000 so you might consider a trade in for ease if you aren't losing 
money.
To be honest though, unless you drive a lot it doesn't save much to have free 
supercharging.
I used 3561 Kwh in the last 12 months. I pay $0.11 a kwh at home and I believe 
the same at a supercharger in my area.
So, roughly $400 a year. Even if you double that to $800 a year it takes a long 
time to get to $5000.
Plus it says they were offering 6 years free supercharging to boot. 
I don't see how this is in any way a negative but just extra incentive to 
upgrade if you were looking to..

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:18:44 AM CDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Tesla tries to get owners to give up `unlimited free Supercharging for life´

Fred Lambert | Apr 24 2023 - 12:25 am PT

"Tesla is trying again to get owners of older Model S and Model X with 
unlimited free Supercharging for life to give up the perk  ...

"Current Tesla Model S or Model X owners with active unlimited free 
Supercharging are eligible for 6 years of unlimited Supercharging. To 
qualify, owners must trade in or remove unlimited Supercharging from their 
vehicle and take delivery of a new Model S or Model X by June 30, 2023 ...

"It´s interesting that Tesla is just now trying hard to get people off of 
the unlimited free Supercharging just as it appears to try to make 
Supercharging a profit center - something it originally said it wouldn´t do.

"With non-Tesla EV drivers now getting access to the network, it looks like 
Tesla is now looking to see what the Supercharger network would look like as 
a full-scale money-making charging network."

Complete article:

https://electrek.co/2023/04/24/tesla-triesowners-give-up-unlimited-free-
supercharging-for-life/

or https://v.gd/vBwnXc

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: "The end of the internal combustion engine" via China

[paul dove via EV]

Elon Musk May Have Been Right, His Tesla Model Y Guess Could Come True

Tesla CEO Elon Musk often gets to prove to people that he was right all along, 
and another such opportunity may come soon enough.  

Tesla CEO Elon Musk said some time ago that the Model Y would outsell all of 
Tesla's other cars, and by a wide margin. This came as a surprise since it's 
much more expensive than the popular Model 3. The CEO went on to predict that 
the Model Y would eventually become the best-selling car in the world. Many 
people thought he was crazy, but there's a much better chance of it actually 
happening than you might think.

When the Tesla Model Y first debuted, it was a bit of a disappointment to many 
people. The entire unveiling ceremony revolved around the history of Tesla, and 
the electric crossover was barely present. When it was finally shown, it wasn't 
shown in great detail, and there was no look at the third row. All you could 
really tell was that it wasn't much more than an inflated Model 3.

That said, the Model Y has been selling exceedingly well across the globe. In 
fact, it already made some top sales lists in 2022, and Tesla's sales stand to 
be much stronger in 2023. While many people love to pick on Elon Musk for his 
wild ideas and terrible timelines, he often proves them wrong. Sure, there are 
some promises Musk has made that have come true very late or still not come to 
fruition, but many of his dreams people doubted years ago are already a reality.

If all continues to move forward as it has thus far this year, Musk could have 
another "I told you so" moment.  




According to Electrek, Musk said in 2016 that the Model Y would create demand 
for 500,000 to 1,000,000 units per year and eventually become the world's 
best-selling passenger car of any kind. Keep in mind, it didn't even come to 
market until 2020. In 2022, Tesla noted that the Model Y would soon keep pace 
with the top-selling Toyota Corolla, which sees some ~1.2 million units sold 
per year.

Tesla could inform us during its upcoming earnings meeting that the Model Y is 
already on track to become the best-selling car in the world as early as this 
year. It topped all rivals in China, the world's biggest automotive market, for 
Q1 2023. Meanwhile, in the world's second-largest car market, the US, early 
data points to the Model Y being the best-selling passenger car for the quarter.




The Model Y is also breaking sales records in many European markets, and Tesla 
has ramped up its production at Giga Berlin to 5,000 copies per week. Tesla is 
also ramping up production at Giga Texas while constantly making tweaks and 
upgrades in Fremont and Shanghai.




Tesla aims to produce some 1.8 million EVs globally in 2023, though Musk has 
said the company could possibly achieve 2 million. If everything falls into 
place as planned, the Model Y has a very good chance of being the best-selling 
car in the world. 

What do you think? Leave us your words of wisdom in the comment section below.


On Saturday, April 22, 2023, 4:56 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

Chinese EV dominance hastens end of petrol engine era

Issued on: 22/04/2023 - 09:14

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230422-chinese-ev-dominance-hastens-
end-of-petrol-engine-era

or https://v.gd/YYqNoM

"This year's Shanghai Auto Show signalled the end of the petrol engine era 
in China, as domestic electric vehicle brands drive change across the sector 
and leave foreign companies in the dust, analysts and industry insiders 
said.

"Government support for EVs and growing interest from a vast consumer base 
has assured Chinese companies' dominance of their home market, the world's 
largest -- and they are now beginning to set their sights overseas.

***

"According to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers, electric 
vehicles made up a quarter of car sales in the country in 2022, a year-on-
year increase of 94 percent.

***

"China has dedicated huge resources to the industry. 

"They skipped developing petrol engines because they can't compete with the 
rest of the world," said Richards.  "So they thought: '(With EVs) we can get 
a head start in front of everyone else'."

***

"The supporting infrastructure was built too -- the government says there 
are now more than 5.8 million charging piles in China.  Guangdong province 
alone has around three times as many public chargers as the whole of the 
United States, according to Bloomberg data.

***

Some are smashing the cash barrier that put EVs beyond the means of the 
average consumer.  In Shanghai, China's Geely exhibited its boxy Panda Mini -
- including a bright yellow one with the phrase "what the duck" emblazoned 
on its side.  The cheaper versions cost around $5,800.

"In the future, homegrown technology could drive prices down even further. 
Battery giant CATL has developed a cell that uses sodium instead of lithium 
ions, the former both more abundant and cheaper than the latter.  Just 
b

Re: [EVDL] China fires back!

[paul dove via EV]

Tesla makes cars in China too! Let’s be clear though. They aren’t Chinese cars 
neither is a Renault or any other brand that builds a factory in China or 
Mexico or wherever. I was speaking if Chinese brands.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:16 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

On 7 Apr 2023 at 17:11, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> My personal experience suggests *none* of them. I've seen and driven a 
> few Chinese EVs that have been imported by various small entrepeneurs. 
> The quality has been unbelievably poor.

You can't buy one in the US, but I'm driving a Chinese-made EV right now, 
and ... well, actually, it's not half bad.  I like it better than I expected 
to. 

Unlike the pitiful no-name Chinese EVs imported to the US in small lots a 
decade or so ago, this one carries the name of a major automaker, and 
they're not stupid enough to risk their reputation on junk.  It's a Dacia 
Spring, made in China for Renault's Romanian Dacia division, heretofore 
known for their simple, low-cost ICEVs.  

It's not as efficient as it should be; it's too tall and boxy and it sits 
too high.  The battery is only 25 kWh, so the range is a bit limited -  
though at around 50 km/h on the winding, hilly 2-lane roads here, it's 
surprisingly respectable.  I recently took it on a ~140km trip and got home 
with 43% charge remaining.

It's not super comfortable and it feels kind of tinny.  The FWD transaxle 
lacks a parking sprag, so you have to remember to set the handbrake, just 
like a 1990s conversion. 

But it's solid, usable transportation, especially for urban driving, and you 
can't touch it for the price.  In France it costs 16,000 euros (around 
US$17,500) after the government's eco bonus.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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    If you don't get this joke, ask a nerdy friend.  If you don't 
    have any nerdy friends, try a bakery.  You can usually find 
    nerds buying pies on the 14th of March.

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Re: [EVDL] China fires back!

[paul dove via EV]

So, which Chinese EV should I purchase?


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 5:10 PM, Paul Compton via EV  
wrote:

On Thu, 6 Apr 2023 at 19:10, paul dove via EV  wrote:

> I wouldn't expect China to produce anything worth having in the near future 
> or possibly at all.
> Harbor Freight as been here a long time and most of their products are still 
> inferior.

That's a US company buying the cheapest crap they can and making a good markup.

Many world class products are made in China, you just don't know they
were made there.

By all means, bury your head ever deeper.

-- 
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] China fires back!

[paul dove via EV]

 The thing is Tesla is the current leader in sales and technology when it 
comes to electric motors.
They announced at the last investors day that they were going away from rare 
earth elements in their vehicles in the future.They are going to produce a 
permanent magnet electric motor with zero rare earth elements in it.
They claim that since 2017 they have reduced the use of rare earth usage by 25% 
while increasing efficiency in the drive train.
I wouldn't expect China to produce anything worth having in the near future or 
possibly at all.
Harbor Freight as been here a long time and most of their products are still 
inferior. 
China's culture is completely different than Japan not to mention all the help 
Japan got from the USA.
We helped Korea as well and now you see a lot of their vehicles. 
Here's the article about Tesla's plans.
 https: 
//electrek.co/2023/03/01/tesla-is-going-back-to-ev-motors-with-no-rare-earth-elements/


There is a space after https: you need to remove so that the graphics weren't 
included.

On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 06:18:22 AM CDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 5 Apr 2023 at 18:17, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> This doesn't bode well for almost all EV makers outside of China:
> https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/world/asia-pacific/20230405-101753/

The sensible ones are already on it:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-frictions-steer-
electric-automakers-away-rare-earth-magnets-2021-07-19/

or https://v.gd/SnnDcU

That said, I expect that before long the Chinese automakers will do with EVs 
what the Japanese did with small, efficient ICEVs in the 1970s.  

Back then the big US automakers hardly bothered with small cars.  When they 
finally did, they produced some pretty execrable examples (think Ford Pinto 
and Chevrolet Vega).  When OPEC turned off the oil tap in 1973, Nissan (then 
Datsun in the US) put up billboards that read "Datsun saves - about a gallon 
a day." Their dealers and Toyota's had every 1200/B210 and Corolla sold, 
with a nice fat dealer surcharge, long before it arrived at the dealership.

Today the mainstream automakers push hard on their high-profit big cars, be 
they EVs or ICEVs.  This is true to some extent even here in Europe, where 
small cars are still popular (and in some cases essential for narrow streets 
and garages).

I expect that the Chinese automakers will quite profitably fill that gap.  
Just as the Japanese did in the later decades, they'll probably use their 
low cost small EVs to build loyalty to their companies, and later upsell 
their customers to their larger EVs.

Chinese EVs are already beginning to make significant inroads here in 
Europe, especially in Norway, where 2/3 of new car sales are now EVs.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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    A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular.
                                        -- Adlai Stevenson
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[EVDL] Tesla sells beer

[paul dove via EV]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/04/business/elon-musk-tesla-beer-gigabier/index.html
 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Can you fix your own Tesla?

[paul dove via EV]

They are all being sued for that. GM says the can’t comply for safety reason 
and proprietary property 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, March 19, 2023, 6:30 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

Two proposed class-action lawsuits allege that Tesla is violating US 
antitrust laws by denying owners and independent mechanics parts and 
software support.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/03/16/dual_tesla_lawsuits_brings_musk/

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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    A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.  

                                    -- Edward R Murrow 
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Re: [EVDL] How is tihis possible?

[paul dove via EV]

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/woman-discovers-keyless-entry-fob-opens-other-locked-cars?_amp=true
 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, March 11, 2023, 4:10 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  
wrote:

A Vancouver man is trying to figure out how he managed to get into someone 
else´s Tesla recently and drive off, using the app on his own phone ...

https://globalnews.ca/news/9541040/bc-tesla-driving-wrong-car-app/

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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    Never underestimate the ability of humans to overestimate their 
    ability. 

                                        -- anonymous
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Re: [EVDL] 2 acre riding lawn mower

[paul dove via EV]

There are several companies making them. I guess ego is not a major 
manufacturer in your mind.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 8, 2023, 11:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

Well, not something you would take on the road, but I'm glad to see a 
major manufacturer, John Deere, producing an electric riding lawn mower. 
The small gas engines are the worst polluters and the noise in the 
neighborhoods has got to go, too.

https://electrek.co/2023/02/08/john-deere-launches-first-electric-zero-turn-mower/

...
The electric mower features a 3.2 kWh (3.56 kWh maximum) sealed 
lithium-ion battery capable of mowing up to two acres per charge.

With a 42-inch Accel Deep Deck and two adjustable mowers, the 
zero-emission EV delivers the same productivity and cut quality as its 
gas-powered counterparts, with added benefits. The electric transaxle 
has a seven mph maximum forward speed, three different modes which can 
be controlled from a large LCD screen, and zero turn capabilities for 
the perfect lines each time.
...

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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Re: [EVDL] 2 acre riding lawn mower

[paul dove via EV]

I apologize! Sincerely was not trying to be rude.
Originally I was going to post a link. Seems when I do that it includes a bunch 
of graphics and the forum rejects those. In addition, my chihuahua was jumping 
on me while typing in my phone and I didn’t give much thought to how it 
sounded. I merely intended to let people know others were making them. I will 
try to do better.
Paul 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, February 9, 2023, 8:18 AM, Peri Hartman  wrote:

Paul, you needn't be so rude. I think highly of ego, but wasn't 
aware of their product. If you don't like my posts, don't read them.Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
-- Original Message --From: "paul dove" To: 
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: "Peri Hartman" 
Sent: 09-Feb-23 05:53:21Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2 acre riding 
lawn mower

There are several companies making them. I guess ego is not a major 
manufacturer in your mind.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 8, 2023, 11:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

Well, not something you would take on the road, but I'm glad to see a 
major manufacturer, John Deere, producing an electric riding lawn mower. 
The small gas engines are the worst polluters and the noise in the 
neighborhoods has got to go, too.

https://electrek.co/2023/02/08/john-deere-launches-first-electric-zero-turn-mower/

...
The electric mower features a 3.2 kWh (3.56 kWh maximum) sealed 
lithium-ion battery capable of mowing up to two acres per charge.

With a 42-inch Accel Deep Deck and two adjustable mowers, the 
zero-emission EV delivers the same productivity and cut quality as its 
gas-powered counterparts, with added benefits. The electric transaxle 
has a seven mph maximum forward speed, three different modes which can 
be controlled from a large LCD screen, and zero turn capabilities for 
the perfect lines each time.
...

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla slashes its car prices for speculator reasons in click bait headline says advertisers who tesla never advertise with ($35k is here) (Tesla≠TaTa)

[paul dove via EV]

They are just like other car companies. If you look for overstock end of month 
sales you can find a deal. I bought my long range Model S 2019 brand new 
because it had been on the lot for a while for $78,000. Had like 50 miles on 
it. Autopilot 100kwh battery. Sunroof. 
I saw a plaid that’s been on the lot for a while in Nashville someone could 
probably get a deal on if they didn’t make it a service vehicle. They are 
slowly getting rid of all the ford vans this way. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, January 18, 2023, 3:32 AM, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:

Funny to see the new prices - especially the Model S just under 95k as
my 2013 S85 MSRP was originally... just under 95k (!)
Regarding legacy prototype cars availability - while my 2013 is
certainly not a prototype, it still shows a few of the original early
issues, such as the touch screen leaking its goop and I have already
had the eMMC replaced when it was written into oblivion last year. So,
in a sense it feels like a prototype
In case anyone is interested in a relatively cheap used Model S with
the rare dual charger (80 Amps capable, so up to 20kW AC charging) I
plan to sell it in the coming weeks, located near San Francisco.
85kWh pack charges to 230 mi range. More details off-list please
unless there are general questions about my experience with this
vehicle, I have owned it for a year now - bought specifically for
testing during the development of an 80 Amp capable EV charging
station.
Cor.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 1:00 AM Ryan Fulcher via EV  wrote:
>
> ($35k Tesla is here)
> (Tesla≠TaTa)
>
> It's curious to classify MSRP as "Sky High" when for over a decade they
> have sold every single car they have ever produced...  It appears that the
> market has no problem paying whatever the price happens to be...  It
> couldn't possibly be that they lowered prices so that both the 5 and 7 seat
> model Y would qualify for the IRA rebates, as opposed to previously where
> only the 7 seat was an SUV ($80k max MSRP) and the 5 seat version was a
> sedan ($55k max MSRP)?  Very strange indeed.
>
> The US Model3 is $9k away and the China Model3 is $2k under that $35k price
> target...
> Also... Tesla is not beholden to satisfy some expectation we each may hold
> in our
> minds regarding affordability of a luxury commodity that is a new vehicle.
>
> I've yet to see any contract that anyone has signed that says that Tesla
> is going to deliver them a car for $35k, just as I don't expect any of the
> legacy prototype cars to actually show up in a dealers show room.
> I don't quite understand how people can justify their selective criticism
> of Tesla.
>
> Regarding Prices, these are always relative (As Of Jan 2023):
>
> Is this close enough to the $35k car for anyone?
> https://twitter.com/TroyTeslike/status/1613747950080909312
> * Tesla Model 3 RWD After US Tax Credit: $36,490
>
> https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1613743473928343554
> • Model S:        $94,990 (from $104,990,  9.5% drop)
> • Model S Plaid: $114,990 (from $135,990, 15.4% drop)
> • Model X:      $109,990 (from $120,990,  9.1% drop)
> • Model X Plaid: $119,990 (from $138,990, 13.7% drop)
>
> https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1613740973342838784
> • Model 3 RWD: $43,990 (from $46,990,  6.4% drop)
> • Model 3 P:  $53,990 (from $62,990, 14.2% drop)
> • Model Y LR:  $52,990 (from $65,990, 20.0% drop) Long Range
> • Model Y P:  $56,990 (from $69,990, 23.0% drop)
>
> https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1611184353106616327
> • Model 3 RWD: $33,023 (11.7% drop)
> • Model 3 P:  $48,014 ( 5.7% drop)
> • Model Y SR:  $37,826 (10.0% drop)
> • Model Y LR:  $45,103 (13.4% drop)
> • Model Y P:  $52,381 ( 9.5% drop)
>
> I have had a Leaf and a Bolt, and they are not the same as a Tesla, you
> might as well compare it to the TATA Mini or Nano: I doubt that a family of
> four would survive a 300 foot plunge off a cliff (
> https://twitter.com/driveteslaca/status/1610080891442958336) in a Tata
> Mini. You can not seriously be comparing the objectively safest vehicles
> ever tested with a (relatively speaking) "death trap" of a "glorified golf
> cart" while making a cost comparison?
> *
> https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa
> *
> https://www.vandi4u.com/safety/crash-test-report/tata-nano-crash-test-ratings/
> You might as well be arguing that a huffy bicycle or a citi car or a
> sparrow or a GEM is cheaper and thus Tesla cars are not affordable.  At
> least compare it to something in the same ball park like the Kia Niro,
> Chevy Bolt, BMW i4, Polestar 2, Hyundai IONIQ 5, VW ID4, etc...
>
> "In the past year, Tesla’s stock price has fallen by more than 64% as high
> inflation has curbed demand for its electric cars." -- Isn't it strange how
> their production has grown an average 50% over a multi year horizon?  Just
> as was guided for, and they have sold them all, so not sure how "curbed
> demand" can also be true, wh

[EVDL] Industry adoption of EVs

[paul dove via EV]

https://youtu.be/sbPH5cTTBD
 s



you need to remove the space between D and s to navigate to the link.




Interesting, I have seen many conversations on here about EVs not a good 
solution for industrial applications. Someone was thinking outside the box on 
this one. I thought maybe this group would enjoy discussion. 
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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[paul dove via EV]

 Tesla didn't invent using aluminum and they are not the only ones.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/15-automotive-aluminum- warriors/
Money is what drives the world. If people are buying EV's they will solve all 
the problems to provide a product.



On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 02:20:17 AM CST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I am trying to understand if Zeihan has an agenda. His expertise is
understanding geography and demographics. Knowing what ingredients go into
making the world go around, and details like, what does it take to make the
unique aluminum alloy that Tesla has crafted to make body parts that are
not steel. The claim is that this is significant and the carbon
footprint of an ICE made from steel is significantly better.

Regarding the inputs to EVs, certainly the availability of lithium is not
good. Nor is it good for cobalt, or nickel.  I have spent some time
thinking about the battery business, even had conversations with Jeff Dahn
and Aaron Cross (the Tesla cell life engineer). The time and commitment to
mine and process more of these material inputs could be a serious
impediment to EV growth. Regarding LiFePO, we have enough phosphate for
current use like fertilizer for crops. It takes years to build and start
operating a phosphate mine. If LiFePO is the future, we do not have a ready
supply.

I posted so maybe I could get some wisdom that is not anecdotal. Does
anyone know about the supply side of Li batteries? In 2013 when I was
studying this topic, it did not look like a sure thing.  Do we know what
sort of carbon cost is built into them? Only JB Straubel is working the
recycling angle. How is that going?

At this moment in time, EV production is nowhere near the scale necessary
to make headway reducing carbon in the atmosphere. It could be we are years
or decades from solving this. That is the gist of Zeihan's assertion. Now
that we are getting shale oil in North America, that cost is way less for
us in the US. That alone can damage the transition to EVs from ICE.

I think there is a lot of guesswork being presented to the effect that EVs
are going to be with us soon, en masse.


On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 1:59 AM Steves via EV  wrote:

> Haven’t read the article, but perhaps he assumes virgin aluminum, which is
> very energy intensive. However even if virgin aluminum is used, 90% of big
> scrap (like car) aluminum is recycled, so that energy is essentially
> reclaimed out the back end.
>
> One has to read this kind of stuff very carefully. My dad was a staunch
> conservative and listened religiously to Rush Limbaugh. RL was ranting one
> day about laws to give up regular lightbulbs for CFLs, and if you broke a
> CFL your house became a hazmat area due the (minuscule) amount of mercury.
> I had to explain that since most of our energy comes from coal, and coal
> has mercury, that regular bulbs, being so inefficient, cause much more
> mercury to be spewed into the atmosphere over the bulbs lifetime.
>
> That’s why I haven’t bothered reading the article. Beware of people with
> agendas.
>
> -Steve
>
> > On Jan 4, 2023, at 11:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Zeihan says ICE looks a lot better and leans on the aluminum in the
> Tesla
> > bodywork. I wonder about this, but don't know how to evaluate it.
> >
> >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 4:36 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Just one of the many issues to point out:
> >>
> >>> On 1/4/2023 12:29 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> >>> The carbon footprint of Teslas
> >>> is not good when you correctly factor in the manufacturing footprint.
> >>
> >>
> >> Do the same calcs for a Gas car - which makes the EV look far better.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> >> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Michael E. Ross
> > (919) 585-6737 Land
> > (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> > (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> > Google Phone and Text
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-- 
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A

Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

Really, how did you get so jaded? It is getting tiresome. Ask yourself how many 
automobile startups have you seen in your life that were successful? Nissan, 
Mitsubishi and others are established companies who are subsidized by their 
governments. Tesla has been fighting and uphill battle. Everyone wants to 
punish them when they have been an American company bringing good jobs to 
America. The Leaf had battery problems when it came out. The I-MiEV was 
discontinued because of lack of sales. Here you are in your armchair trying to 
convince us about what the people want. 
Electric vehicles were expensive. When the plasma TV came out it was 15,000. 
Without rich people as you call them some companies would have never made it 
past the first year. 
Tesla all by itself changes Americas view of the electric car. It certainly 
wasn’t the I-MiEV or the Leaf. The model 3 out sells the Camry. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, December 19, 2022, 4:16 PM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else 
> surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might 
> have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE 
> industry.

"Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the time 
the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of it, 
and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the same 
time.  

Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were 
substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.  

Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, 
especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and 
gimmicks were part of the appeal.  

That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an 
obscenely rich person.  

To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average driver 
needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes, 
tough luck.  

That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault, 
Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They 
actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans 
are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still convinced 
that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in 
the US.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be 
    tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear 
    more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.

                                                  -- John Ciardi
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch

[paul dove via EV]

 I agree with you it takes a lot to go from concept to production vehicle. I 
doubt there is anyone on this forum with personal knowledge of who did what.  
All I know is what I have read.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 02:28:39 PM CST, (-Phil-) 
 wrote:  
 
 I don't agree, I think it was pretty genius to recognize the tech ACP had, and 
decide to bring it to a successful market offering.  APC only really made the 
eBox conversion.  The tZero was only a "concept" they didn't think had legs.
They took ACPs powertrain, Lotus' chassis, and some pretty innovative laptop 
18650 battery packaging and made a pretty awesome EV with the sole intention of 
using it to raise money to build a second mass-market EV.   They succeeded, and 
I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't have made it without 2 things:  1. Elon's 
Money, and 2. The "gift" of the Freemont plant.
However, I'm not as convinced that Elon's engineering input was essential. 

On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 12:21 PM paul dove  wrote:

 and it wasn't the genius of Eberhard, Tarpenning or Elon.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 01:57:16 PM CST, (-Phil-) 
 wrote:  
 
 Yeah, the original Tesla Roadster used the ACP design with very little change.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 11:55 AM paul dove via EV  wrote:

 Little known history. The Tesla drive train was purchased from a company 
founded by Allen Cocconi called AC Propulsion. Allen was the engineer that 
designed the EV1 drive train for GM.
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CST, Tom Mandera via EV 
 wrote:  

 Why do we start with an ICE roller and convert it to EV?  Why don't we 
start by machining some wheels on the lathe, some square tubing for 
frame rails, start hand laying fiberglass for a body..


It's almost always easier (faster/cheaper) to start with even a flawed 
initial implementation than to build something from total scratch.


Especially if part of your aura is about saving the planet.


At least, that's why I would've bought an existing car company and 
leveraged it into something bigger/better rather than starting from zero.

On 12/19/2022 9:44 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
> scratch?
>
>      On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
>  
>  "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 No, you are being difficult. It's obvious to me that folks on this forum 
dislikes Telsa based fabricated information. Did anyone here look up facts 
about the CEO's of Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, etc. before they bought a car? It 
is sheer nonsense.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 01:32:59 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:  
 
 Still, if he didn't need themwhy didn't he just start on his own?   You 
are avoiding the question.

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:05:51 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  How do you know they didn't need him?
I was under the impression that they approached him about investing.
Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:  
 
 Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 How do you know they didn't need him?
I was under the impression that they approached him about investing.
Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:  
 
 Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch

[paul dove via EV]

 Little known history. The Tesla drive train was purchased from a company 
founded by Allen Cocconi called AC Propulsion. Allen was the engineer that 
designed the EV1 drive train for GM.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CST, Tom Mandera via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why do we start with an ICE roller and convert it to EV?  Why don't we 
start by machining some wheels on the lathe, some square tubing for 
frame rails, start hand laying fiberglass for a body..


It's almost always easier (faster/cheaper) to start with even a flawed 
initial implementation than to build something from total scratch.


Especially if part of your aura is about saving the planet.


At least, that's why I would've bought an existing car company and 
leveraged it into something bigger/better rather than starting from zero.

On 12/19/2022 9:44 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
> scratch?
>
>      On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
>  
>  "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

You all need to change the name of this list from electric vehicle discussion 
list to Tesla bashing discussion list. 
Musk attended Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario, and in 1992 he 
transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, where he received 
bachelor’s degrees in physicsand economics in 1997. 
www.britannica.com/biography/Elon-Musk 

Average Tesla Salary: By Location, Job Title, and Department  



www.zippia.com/tesla-careers-11363/salary/



Tesla’s compensation and benefits packages play a significant role in 
attracting and retaining employees. According to Statista, Tesla employs over 
99,000 workers who are highly skilled in their respective fields. Tesla’s 
workforce has increased over 100-fold since 2010, and it seems to be continuing 
the trend of rapid growth.

To attract top talent, Tesla’s employee benefits and perks need to be 
attractive, so Tesla provides lucrative salaries and employee benefit packages 
to attract and retain top tech industry experts. Below is an overview of 
Tesla’s salaries and employee benefits packages. 

careerkarma.com/blog/tesla-benefits/ 




Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 8:35 PM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
> society today.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I see nothing fallacious in such a 
decision.  Rational purchasing decisions take many factors into account.

> Musk may be a jerk; but he still deserves credit for accomplished great
> things. 

I'll give him credit for lining up Tesla's financing, which I don't think 
Gage and Eberhard could have done.  He also did a fair bit to dispel EVs' 
undeserved "golf-car-and-forklift" image.

But that was well over a decade ago.  IMO, in recent years, Tesla has 
succeeded more in spite of Musk than because of him. 

Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.  

You're mission driven for EVs, and I suspect Tesla's engineers are too, but 
that takes you only so far when the boss treats you like trash.

Tesla also can't have a living and thriving business without customers.

A year ago, only those of us who followed EVs pretty closely knew about 
Musk's employee abuse, his company's poor safety record, and his violations 
of California and EU environmental and labor laws.  

Now his Twitter dumpster fire is all over the news, and everybody knows 
about at least his callous attitude toward his employees.  No surprise, 
recent surveys show Tesla's "brand image" sliding into the negative.

www.teslarati.com/tesla-approval-rating-negative-territory-survey/

With that, and rapidly rising prices, Tesla's vehicle sales are down.  

If Musk could stay off Twitter, they might eventually recover.  But unlike 
more emotionally mature CEOs, I don't think he has the impulse control to do 
that.

Tesla's stock price is down too, off over 60 percent from its peak, with 
much of that decline arriving after he took over Twitter.

https://bipartisanreport.com/2022/12/14/tesla-stock-value-suffers-steep-
decline-amidst-musk-antics/

or https://v.gd/aQjxy1

Musk could depress the stock further if he sells more of it to prop up his 
personal megaphone, Twitter.

A Tesla may be a fine EV, but it's not 2013.  Today there are many more good 
EV choices, especially in Europe.

With all due respect, I don't think that it's at all irrational to buy a non-
Tesla EV to avoid putting any more money into Musk's already-stuffed 
pockets. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    I think [Rio de Janeiro mayor Marcelo] Crivella will be 
    remembered as a mayor to be forgotten.

                                    -- Alvaro Costa e Silva
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

It’s a fact that people believe evil and pass it on much faster than anything 
good. So, you should stop with I actually never met Elon. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 5:32 PM, Bill Dube via EV  
wrote:

You haven't actually met Elon, have you.

I have it on good authority that Elon is a very very difficult man to 
work for. This may be why he is so successful, perhaps.

What I read in the news lately about Elon seems completely in character 
for him. I don't doubt anything I have read so far in the least.

Bill D.

On 12/19/2022 5:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
> Alleged mis-behavior
>
> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 Have to?  I am sure they did the math. 
On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 10:18:27 AM CST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  Too little too late.  Now Tesla is going to have to add the clunky CCS
connectors to its network at considerable expense.
I use a Tesla tap. Tesla has a CHAdeMO adapter.  Tesla could just require an 
adapter,  purchased at user expense, to access Superchargers.  Shoudn't cost 
more than $250. Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

Alleged mis-behavior 

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 9:08 AM, Jay Summet via EV  
wrote:



On 12/17/22 11:21, Willie McKemie via EV wrote:
> Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
> obvious skills and MANY successes. I am confused.

I think it's partially because he appears to be an asshole who creates a 
toxic work environment.

I respect the technical successes SpaceX / Tesla have achieved, but I 
certainly wouldn't want to be working at Twitter right now.  A smart 
(female) computer scientist I advised did an internship at SpaceX and 
also cited culture issues there.

My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based 
upon his (miss) behavior.

Jay

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Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

[paul dove via EV]

It’s been a long time since I read the story but what I remember was the owner 
refused to get it inspected by Tesla. I believe the issue was finally resolved 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 9:38 PM, (-Phil-) via EV  
wrote:

Varies from state to state, and I doubt any state that requires it has
inspectors qualified to make EV HV safety calls.

All Tesla cars built since late 2014 have enough self-diagnostic capability
to shut down if something goes wrong during supercharging.  (These changes
were made after a non-salvage Tesla caught fire at a supercharger)

Tesla's famous quality control is poor enough that without this
self-diagnostic capability we would have seen a lot more serious problems,
so a botched salvage repair is not going to really increase the danger.

On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 7:07 PM Robert Johnston via EV 
wrote:

> Don't salvaged and repaired cars need a safety inspection before they can
> be put back on the road and registered/insured?
>
> On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 at 20:48, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hmwould gas stations refuse to give gas to salvaged cars because
> > the gas station might "burn down"?
> >
> >
> >    On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 04:15:20 PM PST, paul dove via EV <
> > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >
> >  That is not bricking a car! It will charge just not on. Supercharger.
> > This is to protect superchargers from burning down not to prevent
> repairs.
> > Like it or not they own the superchargers.
> >
> >
> > Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 2:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <
> > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >
> > Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant
> > reference:
> >
> >
> https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/
> > where Tesla has disabled supercharging on salvaged Teslas. I don't know
> > if they are still doing that.
> >
> > Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or
> > certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous
> > public backlash.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "paul dove" 
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> > Cc: "Peri Hartman" 
> > Sent: 11-Dec-22 11:14:10
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
> >
> > >How in the world would you know Tesla bricks batteries? Gives some
> > >names and sources of you facts!
> > >
> > >
> > >Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > ><https://more.att.com/currently/imap>
> > >
> > >On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 10:53 AM, Peri Hartman via EV
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that
> > >>matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop
> > >>working"
> > >>after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop
> > >>functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It
> > >>may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a
> > >>software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I
> > >>am
> > >>not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors,
> > >>and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be
> > >>regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said.
> > >>
> > >>I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into
> > >>non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are
> > >>you
> > >>allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion.
> > >>
> > >>I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want
> > >>and
> > >>need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think
> > >>that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust
> > >>them
> > >>to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will
> > >>tell,
> > >>I guess.
> > >>
> > >>Peri
> > >>
> > >><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> > >>
> > >>-- Original Message -

Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

[paul dove via EV]

That is not bricking a car! It will charge just not on. Supercharger. This is 
to protect superchargers from burning down not to prevent repairs. Like it or 
not they own the superchargers.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 2:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant 
reference:
https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/
where Tesla has disabled supercharging on salvaged Teslas. I don't know 
if they are still doing that.

Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or 
certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous 
public backlash.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peri Hartman" 
Sent: 11-Dec-22 11:14:10
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

>How in the world would you know Tesla bricks batteries? Gives some 
>names and sources of you facts!
>
>
>Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone 
>
>
>On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 10:53 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
>>There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that
>>matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop 
>>working"
>>after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop
>>functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It
>>may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a
>>software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I 
>>am
>>not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors,
>>and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be
>>regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said.
>>
>>I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into
>>non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are 
>>you
>>allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion.
>>
>>I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want 
>>and
>>need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think
>>that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust 
>>them
>>to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will 
>>tell,
>>I guess.
>>
>>Peri
>>
>><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>>
>>-- Original Message --
>>From: "John Lussmyer via EV" 
>>To: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" 
>>Cc: "John Lussmyer" 
>>Sent: 11-Dec-22 08:29:19
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
>>
>> >On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
>> >>Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising 
>>affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and 
>>now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income 
>>who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us 
>>can't -or won't- afford.
>> >So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low 
>>profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow 
>>production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles?
>> >___
>> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> >No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> >
>>
>>___
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[paul dove via EV]

You mean industry cooperation for the good of all. We are in competition in the 
US, corporate profits are all that matters   


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, November 25, 2022, 10:11 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

I don't know of methane would, on average, produce less CO2 if used 
directly in long haul trucking versus using the grid to charge 
batteries.

But, the biggest savings would come from reducing rolling resistance, 
regardless of type of energy used. The best way, from a physics point of 
view, would be to use steel rails.

We have plenty of railroad systems throughout the US but they are not 
fully used for transporting freight. Presumably this is because there is 
too much overhead to build trains out of containers, get them to a major 
center, and then break them apart and into short haul trucking. I have a 
crazy idea on how to improve that. Could it be made to work ?

Imagine if semis - both tractor and trailer - were fitted with railroad 
compatible wheels, which could be lowered easily to engage with rails 
and equally easily raised when not needed. Also imagine new sidings 
added to the railroad systems where truckers could position their rigs, 
lower the wheels, and a guideway or mechanism would automatically align 
them on the rails.

The process would be for a local haul driver to go to one of these 
sidings, press a button to drop the wheels, and exit the cab and leave. 
The rest would be computer controlled. The rig would leave the siding 
and, wait for a group of semis to come along. When that happens, the 
group would stop, the new rig would join the tail of the group (but not 
hitched in any way) and the group would take off again. When the rig 
reaches its destination, the opposite would happen. A new local driver 
would take the rig to its final route.

Part of the idea, here, is to reduce rolling resistance. The second part 
is to travel in "trains" so that the wind resistance is also reduced.

This idea is riddled with logistics problems and also liability issues. 
Is it worth thinking about ? Can clever people figure out a way to make 
it work ?

Oh, and I'm assuming these would be EV tractors. Clearly, on steel 
rails, the battery size would be greatly reduced.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Winiarski via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Lawrence Winiarski" 
Sent: 25-Nov-22 03:41:50
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

>I know this will sound like sacrilege on EVDL, but does it really make sense 
>to have battery powered Semitrailer trucks?    Isn't it kind of carryingthings 
>a little too far?
>
>On a practical note, a lot of electricity is met on the grid with natural gas 
>generators for demand as they can be spun up and down fairly easily toaccount 
>for variable production and demand.
>
>  Wouldn't it make more sense to just power the truck itself on Natural Gas 
>and skip the power lines/grid/demand/chargestations...etc
>It would also save on 10-20,000 lbs of batteries. not require big investments, 
>much faster "recharge", and believe it or not, diesels can bet easily
>retrofitted to use Natural Gas.  (They just aspirate the air intake with nat 
>gas and still use a small amount of diesel for the "spark".    It'sbeen done 
>in other countries, but for some reason it's just ignored here in the US.
>
>I was very interested in Natural Gas powered vehicles at one time.      
>Largely ignored in the US.
>    There are a lot of good reasons (environmentally and economical) to 
>consider them.
>
>
>
>
>    On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 2:48:27 PM PST, Matthew Pitts via EV 
> wrote:
>
>  So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of the
>cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the
>only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road
>operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a tank
>of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any
>shipping company would be fine with it.
>Matthew Pitts
>Get BlueMail  for Desktop
>Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be
>unpopular.
>The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will
>charge peak rates for electricity.
>Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more
>reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are
>willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like
>eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily
>basis and eat at home for far less money.
>Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks
>will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and
>will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid
>capacity will set the price of electric

Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[paul dove via EV]

That’s not a problem. Get the Tesla supercharger app. They didn’t impact the 
grid. 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 10:39 AM, Matthew Pitts via EV 
 wrote:

Peri,
The problem is that you'll need far more locations to charge EV Semi Trucks 
than just at current Truck Stop locations, because quite often drivers stop 
to sleep at rest areas along the interstate highway system. We actually do 
need a massive upgrade to the grid to compensate for the shift in charging 
locations.
Matthew Pitts
Get BlueMail  for Desktop
Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Hi Bill,
I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer on 
the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter where I'm 
wrong.
If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some calcs.
Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one truck 
charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.&text=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.)

39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50 trucks 
in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate 50 * 100kW = 
5MW. That's a pretty good load.
Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the grid 
has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations is still 
not a big problem, though.
But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers on 
long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if they drive 
500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge at least once 
en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given moment, there 
could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That would be a 10MW 
power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed beyond capacity along 
some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also going to have to handle new 
loads from EV cars, etc.
A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the peaks 
and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for use at night. 
And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to be quite 
significant. But the grid still needs to be there because, you know, there 
are cloudy days, etc.
And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience along 
the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on the freeway 
at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That means, "overnight" 
charging can happen during the day.
In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many 
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well taken 
that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less load on the 
grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I can imagine new 
apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing projections, e.g. 
charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or in 100 miles, two hours 
awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some choices to mull over.
Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
-- Original Message --
 From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 24-Nov-22 03:34:33
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
Hi Peri,
Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always, but 
mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in mind.
The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland seem to 
have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be swapped out 
quickly for charging. They will tend to charge these spare packs when is it 
least expensive to do so.
Both the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push charging 
off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only has issues 
during periods of peak demand, typically in the late afternoon. For most of 
the 24 hours in a day, the grid operators have surplus capacity. During the 
late evening and before dawn, they have _heaps_ of surplus capacity. They 
would be overjoyed to sell this wasted excess grid capacity if they could 
do so.
The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel for a 
few cents less, then they will alter their schedule to do so. The grid 
operators simply have to offer some sort of off-peak charging incentive (or 
an on-peak charging surcharge) and the "problem" is easily solved.
Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric) water 
heaters on a system that is controlled by the power utility. The utility 
will switch off the water heater element during peak times to move the 
consumption to help grid capacity. All done with "ripple signals" from the 
utility over the power wires to your water heater circuit. You can 
participate or

Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[paul dove via EV]

In Europe they even have electric ships. I haven’t heard of any grid issues 
there. Fully Charged Presents Electric Ferry With 4.1 MWh Battery:

 ttps://insideevs.com/news/349545/fully-charged-electric-ferry/



Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 1:17 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about 
providing power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your argument 
works well for small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to see what you 
have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your points of 
view.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

>No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
>intelligence.
>
>There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.
>
> >> Grid capacity problem ? >>>
>
>    There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak times 
>of the day.  No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are 
>charged when they are parked, during the night. Provide an economic incentive 
>to folks to change off peak and the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.
>
>  Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do you 
>  charge from solar? 
>
>    It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it 
>out at another. This is what it does. Use it.
>
>    If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, you can 
>draw it out from a location other than your home to charge your EV. It is 
>simply a matter of giving the grid operator incentive to take a reasonable fee 
>for doing this. Legislation, financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No 
>brainer.
>
> >>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, 
> >>> etc. <<
>
>    The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very 
>nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, electric 
>heat, and power hungry home appliances.
>
>    As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. EVs 
>and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on to "park shave" 
>during periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have to decide on which 
>of the many methods they want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and 
>offer you an incentive to participate.
>
>Bill D.
>
>
>
>___
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>No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[paul dove via EV]

Yes, unfortunately, no one is guiding development with the consumer in mind. 
I’ve been up north and there are parking lots with outlets at every parking 
spot I suppose for block heaters. It would fairly easy and cheap to do this 
more. Then you could plug in at work. I don’t know about in public places since 
it would leave you EVSE out and available to be stolen. 


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On Tuesday, November 22, 2022, 4:08 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:

IMHO...
EV's are not long distance vehiclesthey are commuter vehicles.
PV provides lots of peak power during the day, zero at night

It would be a good idea to promote EV charging with PV during the day.
Where are commuter vehicles during the day?   Probably at work.
Seems that it would be common sense to promote slow EV charging at 
workduring the day.   Don't even need to have thePV at work, as there is 
probably PV somewhere close anyway.




 

    On Monday, November 21, 2022, 7:51:08 AM PST, John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Which problem can be mitigated by having more distributed power. Like a 
Tesla Megapack at major truck stops.

On 11/21/2022 7:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Electric truck stops will need as much power as a small town
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/electric-truck-stops-will-need-as-much-power-as-a-small-town/
>  
>
>
> ...
> If power upgrades don’t start soon, the transition to electric 
> vehicles — let alone electric trucks — will quickly be constrained by 
> a grid unprepared for the demand, warned Bart Franey, vice president 
> of clean energy development at National Grid.
>
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Re: [EVDL] solar panels over parking lots, duh

[paul dove via EV]

 not sure where you live but where I live most of those things aren't an issue. 
I would say at least half of the US parking lots have no trees, no buildings 
around and are one level. Walmart? In the south we drive around for 5 minutes 
looking for the shade spot. Hard to come by...
On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:41:01 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via 
EV  wrote:  
 
 Underground?   Parking garages?  Trees???  Nearby Skyscrapers?
 
I like solar, but...I'm nervous of bureaucrats making arbitrary decisions.  
 


    On Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 7:27:27 PM PST, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I’ve said that’s what we should do for years now! It makes perfect sense


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On Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 7:55 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

France to require all large parking lots to be covered by solar panels
https://grist.org/article/france-to-require-all-large-parking-lots-to-be-covered-by-solar-panels/

All large car parks in France will be covered by solar panels under new 
legislation approved as part of president Emmanuel Macron’s renewable 
energy drive.

...car parks with between 80 and 400 spaces have five years to comply 
with the measures, while operators of those with more than 400 will have 
just three years. At least half of the area of the larger sites must be 
covered by solar panels.

---

Peri


<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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