Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? As soon as you qualify yourself as belonging to one religious group, then that means you follow a set of principle defining such religious group and so following some dogma. If not, why qualifying you in the first place, you could as well belongs to the other group. Quentin In general, platonism has been the victim of the Aristotelian dogma, and has never been dogmatic, although if you serach, you might find exceptions, I guess. Bruno Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. This is just Paul Tilllich trick to convert everyone to religion by redefining religion. People cannot live without trust - they can live just fine without faith in religion. Then why all that fuss by atheists when we show they need faith in something beyond what they can prove. Why atheists act so much like the pseudo-religious fellow? If atheists were a bit more agnostic on matter and possible persons, they would applaud at the use of the religious terms in science. Why do they defend the peculiar authoritative use made by the institutions? Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. This is just Paul Tilllich trick to convert everyone to religion by redefining religion. People cannot live without trust - they can live just fine without faith in religion. Then why all that fuss by atheists when we show they need faith in something beyond what they can prove. Why atheists act so much like the pseudo-religious fellow? If atheists were a bit more agnostic on matter and possible persons, they would applaud at the use of the religious terms in science. Why do they defend the peculiar authoritative use made by the institutions? Because if atheist had done what you advocate, church would still burn them in 2013... Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:36, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 12:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Dec 2013, at 19:29, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrot I have already insist that God cannot be part of the explanation. We agree on this. Then I repeat my question, why add useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing to otherwise nice theories? To take into account the discovery already made by arithmetical machine that there is a transcendental truth responsible for their beliefs, which is beyond their beliefs. For the arithmetical machine that would be Peano's axioms and the rules of inference. No, it is the standard model of those axioms. I don't see that they are either transcendental or true? If we are machine, we cannot define that standard model. We can do it, because we believe in more than arithmetical truth; but with comp, this is just a differentiation between ontology and epistemology, which needs the non effective transcendental higher order logic and set theories. Peano axioms are not transcendental, but their intended meaning is. The space of such true but non rationally communicable truth is axiomatized, at the propositional level, by G* minus G, and this permits a transparent interpretation of Plotinus theology in arithmetic, and this illustrates already the fact that computationalism leads to a Platonist theology, and contradicts the common Aristotelian metaphysics/theology implicit among many scientists. But these transcendental, i.e. unprovable, truths are rather trivial: This sentence cannot be proven. equivalent to I am consistent. That is not trivial. They are not TRANSCENDENTAL the way theologians mean How can you know that? - beyond the natural world and edifying of human experience. Yes. bruno Brent The experience of God, in the large sense I have given is part of the data in the puzzle. You might read my paper La machine Mystic, or the second part of the sane04 paper for more on this, if you are interested. This shows also that arithmetic explains not only the apparent existence of matter (constructively, and thus making comp testable), but it gives some light on altered consciousness and other brain perturbation experience, and mystical type of knowledge/beliefs/comprehension, making some other aspect of comp testable in some first person sense. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:45, Richard Ruquist wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. Well, it is a consequence of QM without collapse, or more simply, elementary arithmetic (and comp). But you need faith to believe in them and their meaning/models. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Me neither, but if comp is true, there is not much choice, and the shape of the immortalities possible is complex and amenable to mathematical studies. Bruno Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:23, Quentin Anciaux wrote: It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. It is true that there might be a part of religion which is not corrigible, but consciousness is like that too. Those incorrigible thing exist, and that is why people *can* easily be manipulated by religious institutions. True believers feel alone, and are glad when other fake similar beliefs. But that means they are half awaken, as the most incorrigible assertion on God, is that it cannot be used in *any* terrestrial matter. Again, you confuse a field of inquiry, and its human institutionalisation. Spiritual persons have no public dogma. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 22:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) Cannabis danger have been debinked at the start, and since then, its medical applications have been verified hundred thousand of times (I can give the references), and yet most people and the states continue the same religion with the dogma that cannabis is a dangerous drug. The explanation is that professional liars are good at their job, and for some reason, this is easier on the fundamental matter, than on technical matter. But it is the same human weakness---to find comfort in local lies. bruno Quentin -Original Message- From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 23:47, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Dec 2013, at 01:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss. But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said before. So we're just watching as it unfolds. My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, nothing before or after, but what if there is? If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time. But this is something that we have already discussed a lot. Some (like me) agreed on compatibilist theory of free will. In fact we don't see how indeterminacy could help in the free will ability. Why should the fact that some super-machine, or god, can predict my behavior prevent it of being free? Free will is *self*-indetermination, not absolute indetermination. When we feel free to do something we want to do, we often say that we are determined to do it ... I think I agree. My view is that free will is a 1p experience that makes no sense as a 3p concept. OK. (This is slightly nuanceable, but is not important) But here I was arguing against a religious claim. Proposing that there is a God that is testing us, and that the meaning of or lives is to pass this test is a strong claim, Indeed. one that can deeply affect people's behaviours. That might be the reason of its existence. From an omniscient God's perspective, everything already happened. Like with comp, all the arithmetical truth are already decided, from outside, but it looks different from inside. Trying to recover possible wishes of an entity at this God's level and introducing them at the level of our experience seems nonsensical. Yes. like it is nonsensical to justify some behavior by saying I was just obeying to the SWE. On the other hand, this type of claim sounds suspiciously convenient for some very human purposes... Alas, yes. bruno Telmo. Bruno And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother... What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are different moments, and it's not a replay. Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Hi Samiya, If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother? Telmo.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? That is like saying nothing. In the other side, one thing is the activity of science, other the different schools of science, other the different sciences and other the science believer, another the commited positivist, the public institution payed relativist that gives advice to politicians etc. Are you telling me that there are no dogmas in all these fauna? On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Science comes from latin and means knowledge... if some wants to use science as a cover for something else, that doesn't redefine what it is... science is an attitude towards pursuit of knowledge... Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com 2013/12/6 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? That is like saying nothing. In the other side, one thing is the activity of science, other the different schools of science, other the different sciences and other the science believer, another the commited positivist, the public institution payed relativist that gives advice to politicians etc. Are you telling me that there are no dogmas in all these fauna? On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. Science is empiricism. It is restricted to the domains of knowledge where hypothesis can be rejected by performing experiences. But the idea that all knowledge can be obtained in this fashion is dogma. I love science, and I find positivism almost insulting, because it throws science back to realms of superstition that I find abhorrent. On the contrary, honest science can be used to dispel ugly falsehoods (or, as Carl Sagan called them, demons), and I love it for that. It is trivially truth that private experience is real -- in fact it is the thing I am most certain of. The only thing I can be absolutely certain of. But part of this experience is not communicable, so it cannot be completely investigated using the scientific method. This is so problematic to the proponents of science as the only acceptable form of inquiry, that they go as far as rejecting the existence of first person experience. This is mysticism of the same level of absurdity of any silly religious dogma you can think of. On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, Independently of the use of the term religion, our search for knowledge must necessarily include parts that cannot be discussed. Some serious attempts at communicating private experience take the form of art, for example. Art is forever imperfect in this regard, but there is at least pleasure in making the attempt. And maybe some opportunity for transcendence. As there is opportunity for transcendence in science and technology. The human experience is not compartmentalised. There is transcendence in seeing the first space shuttle take off. It's a moving experience. I dare say religious in the good sense. you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. But real search for transcendence has nothing to do with court-like decisions of what you can say or not. You have the same problem with science. There is science the method of inquiry and science the human institution. In the latter, there are things you cannot reject -- things that go beyond the scientific method -- if you want membership. The lack of compartmentalisation has an ugly side. By fighting religious fundamentalists, many scientists become fundamentalists themselves, and close themselves to the serious discussion of certain hot topics. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. Pretending that these assumption are not there corrupts science. Telmo. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Richard: I do not have to since it is a matter of belief. I do not believe that universes split or that quantum immortality is an option. That's why I say QI is a religion. Of course I also say science can be a religion, my religion. On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.comwrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. Science is empiricism. Empiricism is part of science, but not all... Not all knowledge can be through empiricism. It is restricted You restrict it to it... to the domains of knowledge where hypothesis can be rejected by performing experiences. But the idea that all knowledge can be obtained in this fashion is dogma. If you don't dispute it, it would. I love science, and I find positivism almost insulting, because it throws science back to realms of superstition that I find abhorrent. On the contrary, honest science can be used to dispel ugly falsehoods (or, as Carl Sagan called them, demons), and I love it for that. It is trivially truth that private experience is real -- in fact it is the thing I am most certain of. The only thing I can be absolutely certain of. But part of this experience is not communicable, so it cannot be completely investigated using the scientific method. You say it can't be without proving it, as such I'll stay open to the possibility it can. This is so problematic to the proponents of science as the only acceptable form of inquiry, that they go as far as rejecting the existence of first person experience. Stubborn person exists everywhere, they can use science as a cover, that doesn't render their argument correct nor redefine what science is. This is mysticism of the same level of absurdity of any silly religious dogma you can think of. On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, Independently of the use of the term religion, our search for knowledge must necessarily include parts that cannot be discussed. You misunderstand what I'm saying... you can discuss these thing... while you can't discuss a dogma and saying you're still following that particular religion who holds that dogma. Quentin Some serious attempts at communicating private experience take the form of art, for example. Art is forever imperfect in this regard, but there is at least pleasure in making the attempt. And maybe some opportunity for transcendence. As there is opportunity for transcendence in science and technology. The human experience is not compartmentalised. There is transcendence in seeing the first space shuttle take off. It's a moving experience. I dare say religious in the good sense. you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. But real search for transcendence has nothing to do with court-like decisions of what you can say or not. You have the same problem with science. There is science the method of inquiry and science the human institution. In the latter, there are things you cannot reject -- things that go beyond the scientific method -- if you want membership. The lack of compartmentalisation has an ugly side. By fighting religious fundamentalists, many scientists become fundamentalists themselves, and close themselves to the serious discussion of certain hot topics. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. Pretending that these assumption are not there corrupts science. Telmo. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. Science is empiricism. It is restricted to the domains of knowledge where hypothesis can be rejected by performing experiences. But the idea that all knowledge can be obtained in this fashion is dogma. I love science, and I find positivism almost insulting, because it throws science back to realms of superstition that I find abhorrent. On the contrary, honest science can be used to dispel ugly falsehoods (or, as Carl Sagan called them, demons), and I love it for that. It is trivially truth that private experience is real -- in fact it is the thing I am most certain of. The only thing I can be absolutely certain of. But part of this experience is not communicable, so it cannot be completely investigated using the scientific method. This is so problematic to the proponents of science as the only acceptable form of inquiry, that they go as far as rejecting the existence of first person experience. This is mysticism of the same level of absurdity of any silly religious dogma you can think of. On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, Independently of the use of the term religion, our search for knowledge must necessarily include parts that cannot be discussed. Some serious attempts at communicating private experience take the form of art, for example. Art is forever imperfect in this regard, but there is at least pleasure in making the attempt. And maybe some opportunity for transcendence. As there is opportunity for transcendence in science and technology. The human experience is not compartmentalised. There is transcendence in seeing the first space shuttle take off. It's a moving experience. I dare say religious in the good sense. you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. But real search for transcendence has nothing to do with court-like decisions of what you can say or not. You have the same problem with science. There is science the method of inquiry and science the human institution. In the latter, there are things you cannot reject -- things that go beyond the scientific method -- if you want membership. The lack of compartmentalisation has an ugly side. By fighting religious fundamentalists, many scientists become fundamentalists themselves, and close themselves to the serious discussion of certain hot topics. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. Yes, that's called hypothesis, hypothesis can go to oblivion... Pretending that these assumption are not there corrupts science. Who is pretending such a thing ? Telmo. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling philosophy out of the sciences. 2013/12/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Richard: I do not have to since it is a matter of belief. I do not believe that universes split or that quantum immortality is an option. That's why I say QI is a religion. QI is an hypothesis, that could be false... it's not a religion. I see lot of people would like to conflate hypothesis with dogma and religion with science... but it's rethorical. Quentin Of course I also say science can be a religion, my religion. On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.comwrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
What I will say for you and Quentin is that for each individual convert, the previous state was disproved. Since, its subjective, why argue otherwise. If we want objective, then we must be able to measure. Mitch -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 4:07 am Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? On 05 Dec 2013, at 22:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) Cannabis danger have been debinked at the start, and since then, its medical applications have been verified hundred thousand of times (I can give the references), and yet most people and the states continue the same religion with the dogma that cannabis is a dangerous drug. The explanation is that professional liars are good at their job, and for some reason, this is easier on the fundamental matter, than on technical matter. But it is the same human weakness---to find comfort in local lies. bruno Quentin -Original Message- From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? My own, for one. Also the founders of the bathai faith were quite clear that any true religion must respect the science of the day, otherwise they said, it falls into superstition. They also said without religion science falls into materialism. Jason Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... So if science is the way, the way to what? Where do the beliefs belong? I would say a more correct definition of religion is a collection if beliefs, regardless of how you got them. Some may rely on dogmas if old books, others on newer books and articles, but either method, science or stake dogmas can provide the basis of one's world view. Science never provides the final answer, and so to operate in this world we must act in our own private beliefs. That is just my take according to my own definitions. You may define religion as dogma and come to different cinclusions. Jason Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.comjasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? My own, for one. If you're alone, it's not a religion. A religion is not just a set of belief, but it comes with codification, and also those codifications /beliefs are shared between members of that religion. What you call religion are a just set of beliefs. As the usage of god for UR, dogma for hypothesis, using religion for that is bad... it's just to make a giant salad with word that lose their intended meanings. Quentin Also the founders of the bathai faith were quite clear that any true religion must respect the science of the day, otherwise they said, it falls into superstition. They also said without religion science falls into materialism. Jason Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.comjasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... So if science is the way, the way to what? I said *a* way. Religion on the contrary is not *a* way, religion will not ask you to doubt it. Quentin Where do the beliefs belong? I would say a more correct definition of religion is a collection if beliefs, regardless of how you got them. Some may rely on dogmas if old books, others on newer books and articles, but either method, science or stake dogmas can provide the basis of one's world view. Science never provides the final answer, and so to operate in this world we must act in our own private beliefs. That is just my take according to my own definitions. You may define religion as dogma and come to different cinclusions. Jason Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 06 Dec 2013, at 13:52, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Science comes from latin and means knowledge... *that* *is* *the* error of the latine. They misunderstanding of the greeks and indians. For the platonist, and the popperians notably, science is *only* beliefs, public theories, I would be a more severe teacher, I would ask you to present them in first order languages and theories (which is tiedous but easily feasible for a large part of the current science (set of beliefs in fashion today). Science is not ma = KmM/r^2. Science (well understood) is only ma = KmM/r^2? Science is not universe Science is not multiverse Science is universe?, multiverse? something else?, ... They are quite important longstanding theories in which we believe and there is nothing wrong in building on them, but we must be able to retrieve beliefs to stand the facts and the theories assumed. There is no science. There are only field of inquiries, and humans having a scientific attitude. Scientific attitude is field independent. Research can be refrained only by abuse of authority. Genuine believer hides nothing and don't fear reason. To separate science and theology is like saying OK !, on the ultra- fundamental questions we tolerate the dogma, the authoritative argument, the arbitrariness, etc.. That is like forbidding research, and the application of reason, in a field, to perpetuate the oppression of the authoritative argument in it. With comp, theological truth extends science, but that extension is relative, and machine with big provability means, like ZF, can study the theology of the simpler machines, like PA. As far as lifting such theology on oneself is an entirely personal matter and an ability of recognizing one self in an other. Keep in mind that as a platonist, the theology associated to the machine M is the truth about the machine M (the set of true arithmetical sentence concerning machine M). The whole truth. Not just what the NSA could collected. The whole truth ands its determination in the most probable continuations. It can be the set of all diophantine equation solved with M as parameter, for example). That a very complex non computable set. In fact the theology gives what you can hope assuming you are correct (including on the substitution level for example). But theology here is a fundamental science, made indirectly testable by giving constraints (at the least) on physics, making the law basically invariant for the choice of the base phi_i, for example. I am agnostic. But I do believe in elementary arithmetic, and this astonished me, and makes me suspect of something. if some wants to use science as a cover for something else, that doesn't redefine what it is... science is an attitude towards pursuit of knowledge... I agree with this. Again why not favor that attitude in all domains? No need of ontological commitment. Only hypotheses and an open mind and a listening to the others, taking into account that the subject is a bit taboo, for historical and psychologically normal reasons. To separate theology from science seems spiritually immature to me. For religion, it is perhaps different. Like Plotinus I am skeptical on theurgy, unless they do succeed in doing it with the right sense of humor, if spiritually mature enough. No problem with celebrations and contemplations, and sharing of technics and theories. But I am not sure, abuse can lead to brainwashing by repetitions. Bruno Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com 2013/12/6 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? That is like saying nothing. In the other side, one thing is the activity of science, other the different schools of science, other the different sciences and other the science believer, another the commited positivist, the public institution payed relativist that gives advice to politicians etc. Are you telling me that there are no dogmas in all these fauna? On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no, science has no dogma and is not based on dogma but on hypothesis. Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. This erasure of dogmas of science is the most sucessful campaing of disinformation ever. Simply by discrediting and prohibiting metaphysics and pulling
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 12:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. In other words, what all the rest of the world calls philosophy. Brent Atheism is not a religion, just as a vacant lot is not a type of building, and health is not a form of sickness. --- Jim Heldberg, San Francisco Atheist Coordinator -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Can you refute comp-I? No I can not because of the IHA principle. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 12:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. This is just Paul Tilllich trick to convert everyone to religion by redefining religion. People cannot live without trust - they can live just fine without faith in religion. Then why all that fuss by atheists when we show they need faith in something beyond what they can prove. First, because you didn't show that we need faith - only that we need trust. Trust is different than faith; it is tested and earned. Why atheists act so much like the pseudo-religious fellow? Because you redefine 'religious' to try to sweep everybody into that category. I might ask, if everybody is religious, then what use is the word - if it conveys no distinction if is meaningless. If atheists were a bit more agnostic on matter and possible persons, they would applaud at the use of the religious terms in science. Atheists on this list are, like myself, agnostic about many things. But it would be foolish to believe in the gods of Olympus and the god of Abraham and all those other Big Daddies in the Sky whose worship is denominated theism. Why do they defend the peculiar authoritative use made by the institutions? The use is authoritative because it is ubiquitous; that's how language is. I don't defend it. I look it up in the dictionary. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 3:59 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The dogma that science (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or dogmas as you may call it. Initial postulates can be tested and justified by predictive success - and in that case they aren't dogma. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 4:46 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? Plus hypothesizing and testing. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 4:56 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. What are these? Is Bruno getting rid of them? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 7:21 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? My own, for one. Also the founders of the bathai faith were quite clear that any true religion must respect the science of the day, otherwise they said, it falls into superstition. They also said without religion science falls into materialism. And they know that is wrong...how? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 7:27 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... So if science is the way, the way to what? Where do the beliefs belong? I would say a more correct definition of religion is a collection if beliefs, regardless of how you got them. Another attempt to sweep everybody into the religion bin. Some may rely on dogmas if old books, others on newer books and articles, but either method, science or stake dogmas can provide the basis of one's world view. Science never provides the final answer, and so to operate in this world we must act in our own private beliefs. And religion is always ready to provide a final answer, one never to be questioned, because if it's the right answer then it must always have been right. That is just my take according to my own definitions. You may define religion as dogma and come to different cinclusions. I take 'religion' to mean what people refer to when they say they belong to a religion. Brent Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others. --- Chaz Bufe -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/6/2013 10:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: There is no science. There are only field of inquiries, and humans having a scientific attitude. Scientific attitude is field independent. Research can be refrained only by abuse of authority. Genuine believer hides nothing and don't fear reason. This is really hilarious. On the one hand you want to claim everybody is religious by redefining religion to mean any belief. Then you want to say there is no science - it's just an attitude. Like my attitude that the refrigerator I left in the kitchen is still there. Since I believe it's there that must be a dogma of my religion. It can't be scientific knowledge because that doesn't exist. Brent Philosophy is the systematic abuse of terminology invented for the purpose. --- Arthur Koestler -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 06 Dec 2013, at 13:59, Richard Ruquist wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? In which theory? In comp, comp_i is a theorem, or meta-theorem. The amoeba can prove that IF she survives 24h, then she is in principle immortal. I can't, even without the step 8. Richard: I do not have to since it is a matter of belief. OK. But many believe that comp is the theory of the materialist and of those who believe in mortality. Once we accept mechanism, it becomes a huge complex problem. I do not believe that universes split or that quantum immortality is an option. I don't believe in any universe. That's why I say QI is a religion. QM is a religion. QI is a theorem, or meta-theorem in QM. Of course I also say science can be a religion, my religion. Once you believe a theory applies to something, you do a religious act, in the comp sense of attributing truth or meaning to (syntactical, reperesented) belief. OK. Bruno On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. I neither believe nor disbelieve in quantum immortality, I am not ashamed to admit that there are some things I just don't know. And that makes me much wiser than some on this list, at least I know I don't know shit. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 7 December 2013 09:31, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. I neither believe nor disbelieve in quantum immortality, I am not ashamed to admit that there are some things I just don't know. And that makes me much wiser than some on this list, at least I know I don't know shit. You're too modest, John. I suspect you do know shit. (Even I do, sometimes!) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? Everybody knows Wikipedia can be helpful but often does a terrible job at oversimplifying, especially on theological matters, but you defeat them on that point today, regarding theology. Oversimplified Wikipedia definition (noting your Science is a way to discover the world etc. + dogma accusation of Taoism etc.): *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaoismThe term Tao means way, path or principle, and can also be found in Chinese philosophies and religions other than Taoism. In Taoism, however, Tao denotes something that is both the source and the driving force behind everything that exists. It is ultimately ineffable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability: The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#cite_note-Laozi-1* So your world discovery quoted above is already too dogmatic; even to a Wiki-Taoist. There is just path or way, where the goal, purpose, or god stays undefined. Your discovery marker, implies some correct point, some kind of progress can be ultimately found, defined, and correctly pursued. This is magnitudes more dogmatic than the poor little Wiki oversimplification. Also your position of theology necessitating some fixed, inflexible dogma is not supported, again even by an imprecise (compared with Laozi writings and their equivalents in other theologies mentioned in this context) wiki quote: the code, language, script cannot be told. So in the first two sentences of wiki definition your image of identical, zombified robots following some trivial, fixed, dogmatic theology fanatically, concerning theology and Taoism here in particular, is without support. As with Science, people interpret theology in a variety of ways; more or less literally etc. PGC Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 6 December 2013 06:58, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:42 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I think I love you. I've been saying this sort of thing for years, but rarely have I managed to do it so articulately. Awww.. thanks Liz! :) :-) Obviously it will have to be Platonic! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Richard: I learned my physics dogma at Harvard Grad School. Before that I was a mechanical engineer. Fine, but to 'think: what is a dogma' you learned as a li'l kid when you had to pray at bedtime. BTW (I never attended Harvard) did they teach you that 'physics' is a dogma? I try to identify 'phisix' as a way to explain poorly understood phenomena in our ignorance - using math as the 'main' tool. John M On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: John, I learned my physics dogma at Harvard Grad School. Before that I was a mechanical engineer. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 4:14 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Quentin wrote: *A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion.* *(*addressed to Richard's:I believe in science.That is my religion.) It is a questionable semantic situation what one can call an 'axiom', or even a math-groundrule (like: primes are primes ) what (I think) Bruno would deem so funamental that it cannot be justified into more fundamentals. Richard: you learned your (scientific) dogma-librARY in grade school, or earlier, Quentin - you fell for a philosophical (logistical?) argument that is fictitious. IMO a religion is not based on (a) dogma, it is based on a 'story' what people are willing to accept as a dogma. Then they kill the infidel. Or the gays. Or both. There are diverse gods: some are vain (require adoration and praise plus full obedience from their 'creatures') some are vicious and jealous, some cheat on their spouses, some kill for such. John M On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/6 Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? Everybody knows Wikipedia can be helpful but often does a terrible job at oversimplifying, especially on theological matters, but you defeat them on that point today, regarding theology. Oversimplified Wikipedia definition (noting your Science is a way to discover the world etc. + dogma accusation of Taoism etc.): *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism The term Tao means way, path or principle, and can also be found in Chinese philosophies and religions other than Taoism. In Taoism, however, Tao denotes something that is both the source and the driving force behind everything that exists. It is ultimately ineffable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability: The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#cite_note-Laozi-1* Nothing I say has meaning... great... what's the point ? It's just a sentence that sounds good but is totally empty. So your world discovery quoted above is already too dogmatic; even to a Wiki-Taoist. Are you saying we can't ? Yes, one hypothesis of science, is that the world is understandable... if it is not, all of what you're saying is useless. Science use hypothesis, not dogma, and yes there are fundamental hypothesis, if the world in fine is shown not to be understandable, science goal will have failed and will not be recoverable. Quentin There is just path or way, where the goal, purpose, or god stays undefined. Your discovery marker, implies some correct point, some kind of progress can be ultimately found, defined, and correctly pursued. This is magnitudes more dogmatic than the poor little Wiki oversimplification. Also your position of theology necessitating some fixed, inflexible dogma is not supported, again even by an imprecise (compared with Laozi writings and their equivalents in other theologies mentioned in this context) wiki quote: the code, language, script cannot be told. So in the first two sentences of wiki definition your image of identical, zombified robots following some trivial, fixed, dogmatic theology fanatically, concerning theology and Taoism here in particular, is without support. As with Science, people interpret theology in a variety of ways; more or less literally etc. PGC Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/6 Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? Everybody knows Wikipedia can be helpful but often does a terrible job at oversimplifying, especially on theological matters, but you defeat them on that point today, regarding theology. Oversimplified Wikipedia definition (noting your Science is a way to discover the world etc. + dogma accusation of Taoism etc.): *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism The term Tao means way, path or principle, and can also be found in Chinese philosophies and religions other than Taoism. In Taoism, however, Tao denotes something that is both the source and the driving force behind everything that exists. It is ultimately ineffable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability: The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#cite_note-Laozi-1* Nothing I say has meaning... great... what's the point ? It's just a sentence that sounds good but is totally empty. Nah, Tao can still be spoken, just not eternal. Like we can say set of all sets or all partial recursive functions but it doesn't lead to decidable proof, diagonalization and contradiction, or help us in some absolute sense, even if serving as some pointer. So this doesn't rule out notions like emanation, as posed by Plotinus or arithmetic successor function and multiplication operator, that are, as examples, not or only part, reflection, emanation etc. of that unspeakable name/one/Tao. To confuse this with nihilism is understandable but inappropriate because it does refer to some unnamable principle, where nihilism crudely put, does not. So your world discovery quoted above is already too dogmatic; even to a Wiki-Taoist. Are you saying we can't ? Yes, one hypothesis of science, is that the world is understandable... if it is not, all of what you're saying is useless. Science use hypothesis, not dogma, and yes there are fundamental hypothesis, if the world in fine is shown not to be understandable, science goal will have failed and will not be recoverable. Agreed, and I don't think the above mentioned theologies would have much of a problem with that... I still don't see how an interpretation of science protects it from being practiced or manipulated dogmatically, same as with theologies though. E.g. with some fundamentally atheist interpretation, it can even seem more treacherous and dishonest by using empirical data as proof of truth because of self-evidence tricks of culture and local biological and predatory circumstance. In this example, Science doesn't lay the ambiguity and controversy of its axioms on the table and can be abused in the same manner as any other system of beliefs. PGC Quentin There is just path or way, where the goal, purpose, or god stays undefined. Your discovery marker, implies some correct point, some kind of progress can be ultimately found, defined, and correctly pursued. This is magnitudes more dogmatic than the poor little Wiki oversimplification. Also your position of theology necessitating some fixed, inflexible dogma is not supported, again even by an imprecise (compared with Laozi writings and their equivalents in other theologies mentioned in this context) wiki quote: the code,
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 06 Dec 2013, at 16:24, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: What I will say for you and Quentin is that for each individual convert, the previous state was disproved. Since, its subjective, why argue otherwise. If we want objective, then we must be able to measure. I agree, and that's why the theology of the numbers is *interesting*: it is testable in the usual 3p sharable way. That theology contains physics as a subpart. What is subjective is the appreciation, or not, of the term theology, and that is subjective indeed, but it could also be related to strategy. My difference with Quentin is on that point. But I have already hidden the wording theology for a long time, and that strategy did not really worked, and so I come back to the usual method of choosing word: using the word the most applied by those in the fields or appreciating the subject. Bruno Mitch -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 4:07 am Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? On 05 Dec 2013, at 22:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) Cannabis danger have been debinked at the start, and since then, its medical applications have been verified hundred thousand of times (I can give the references), and yet most people and the states continue the same religion with the dogma that cannabis is a dangerous drug. The explanation is that professional liars are good at their job, and for some reason, this is easier on the fundamental matter, than on technical matter. But it is the same human weakness---to find comfort in local lies. bruno Quentin -Original Message- From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 03 Dec 2013, at 19:29, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrot I have already insist that God cannot be part of the explanation. We agree on this. Then I repeat my question, why add useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing to otherwise nice theories? To take into account the discovery already made by arithmetical machine that there is a transcendental truth responsible for their beliefs, which is beyond their beliefs. The space of such true but non rationally communicable truth is axiomatized, at the propositional level, by G* minus G, and this permits a transparent interpretation of Plotinus theology in arithmetic, and this illustrates already the fact that computationalism leads to a Platonist theology, and contradicts the common Aristotelian metaphysics/theology implicit among many scientists. The experience of God, in the large sense I have given is part of the data in the puzzle. You might read my paper La machine Mystic, or the second part of the sane04 paper for more on this, if you are interested. This shows also that arithmetic explains not only the apparent existence of matter (constructively, and thus making comp testable), but it gives some light on altered consciousness and other brain perturbation experience, and mystical type of knowledge/ beliefs/comprehension, making some other aspect of comp testable in some first person sense. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 03 Dec 2013, at 01:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss. But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said before. So we're just watching as it unfolds. My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, nothing before or after, but what if there is? If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time. But this is something that we have already discussed a lot. Some (like me) agreed on compatibilist theory of free will. In fact we don't see how indeterminacy could help in the free will ability. Why should the fact that some super-machine, or god, can predict my behavior prevent it of being free? Free will is *self*-indetermination, not absolute indetermination. When we feel free to do something we want to do, we often say that we are determined to do it ... Bruno And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother... What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are different moments, and it's not a replay. Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Hi Samiya, If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother? Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an hard subject) Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them and that everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us accept more easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be fatal for the incarnation of the good. The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's perfection? You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive attributes and as such is perfect, and one day we will understand the tragedies, but I am not sure such a God makes sense for the universal machines. If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth belonging to G*, and not G. That would mean that God was perfect ... until you said so. The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from some shared assumptions. If you say God is perfect to
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 04 Dec 2013, at 16:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Alberto, I agree with you that religion cannot be avoided in this sense. Here's a funny example: The Leipzig secular solstice celebration: http://lesswrong.com/meetups/u6 Here's a video of some guy who's trying to become a priest for atheists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vIFloLATxo (I still have some hope that the guy is a comedian, in which case he's a genius) One of the most perverse tricks that the system played on us, in my opinion, was in convincing people to accept that the state should raise the kids. Sure, people spend a couple of hours with them between days spent working mostly unnecessary jobs, but the bulk of modern education is provided by institutionalised school and TV. I agree with the importance of teaching kids math, reading comprehension, etc, but school is just terrible. It also teaches us to tolerate absurd levels of boredom, to replace thinking with accepting authority and it creates an artificial reward system, where one can get addicted to a feeling of accomplishment without accomplishing anything. Of course, all these things make us more compliant in later on accepting lives without meaning. Democracy is almost funny. People believe in this myth that it enforces the will of the people, but if you ask anyone individually you will find that you cannot easily find a person whose opinion ever influenced anything whatsoever. It's even hard to have an opinion. The better part of their days people are slaves, and when tired they are spoon fed badly disguised world views sprinkled over mindless entertainment. Everyone should have at least one psychedelic experience. This would change the world faster and better than any ideology. All religions have their psychedelic substances. Christianism is mainly wine (Christ blood!), although some pretended that Jesus took magic shrooms. Cannabis would already change a lot, and salvia, often called a medication to cure atheism (!) could bring much more change. Quite possibly. Bruno Telmo. On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Two more remarks: I´m astonished contemplating how people can contemplate with horror the belief in a god that they thing that it does not exist and accept the belief in worldly lies and praise completely invented myths about their favorite heroes Even if they know that are false. That Kim Jon Il wrote a mean of tree books a day is incredible for them but there are equally fantastic histories and Myths widely believed that would make Chesterton crap up. The wishfulthinker fall in tears when pronouncing his sacred capitalized worlds: People, Democracy, Equalty Human Rights and so on. In the past, Socialism, Worker Class and such craps motivated the same heart lifts. Today even the Terrorists invoke what they call Democracy with passion. But in his country, like in any other, the same families alternate in government, with a few exceptions, no matter the kind or regime and the political party. All are equals except that some are more equal than others. Perhaps things are closer to the Ancient Regime rather than to the myths of his utopic society. The more the utopics are in power, the more the ancient regime (that they had in the imagination) returns. Perhaps all such elevated concepts are not part of the reality but ideological constructions and their most known advocates, just power seekers that may deserve the worship of the wishfulthinkers? I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. 2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological (atheism is the religion of the state). The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society. But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other words, a myth. But a myth necessary for the state religion. Whenever there are laws there is a sovereingh lawyers. The people in democracy is such lawyer say the modern wishfulthinker. That is nothing but another two myths. hypostases, something that does not exist bu in the mind by an effort of faith for the purpose of social cooperation. So to summarize, the human mind can not live withouth myths. If he reject the given ones, he invent its own. 2013/12/1 LizR lizj...@gmail.com Because there are no obvious signs of
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. OK. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I repeat my question, why add useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing to otherwise nice theories? To take into account the discovery already made by arithmetical machine that there is a transcendental truth responsible for their beliefs And what is responsible for that transcendental truth? Like I said, useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing. You might read my paper La machine Mystic, or the second part of the sane04 paper for more on this, if you are interested. [...] it gives some light on altered consciousness and other brain perturbation experience In those papers are you as sloppy in your use of pronouns as on this list? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:42 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 December 2013 04:24, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: One of the most perverse tricks that the system played on us, in my opinion, was in convincing people to accept that the state should raise the kids. Sure, people spend a couple of hours with them between days spent working mostly unnecessary jobs, but the bulk of modern education is provided by institutionalised school and TV. I agree with the importance of teaching kids math, reading comprehension, etc, but school is just terrible. It also teaches us to tolerate absurd levels of boredom, to replace thinking with accepting authority and it creates an artificial reward system, where one can get addicted to a feeling of accomplishment without accomplishing anything. Of course, all these things make us more compliant in later on accepting lives without meaning. The purpose of school is to raise the next generation of wage slaves, so it's geared to whatever that requires. Democracy is almost funny. People believe in this myth that it enforces the will of the people, but if you ask anyone individually you will find that you cannot easily find a person whose opinion ever influenced anything whatsoever. It's even hard to have an opinion. The better part of their days people are slaves, and when tired they are spoon fed badly disguised world views sprinkled over mindless entertainment. I think I love you. I've been saying this sort of thing for years, but rarely have I managed to do it so articulately. Awww.. thanks Liz! :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 16:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Alberto, I agree with you that religion cannot be avoided in this sense. Here's a funny example: The Leipzig secular solstice celebration: http://lesswrong.com/meetups/u6 Here's a video of some guy who's trying to become a priest for atheists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vIFloLATxo (I still have some hope that the guy is a comedian, in which case he's a genius) One of the most perverse tricks that the system played on us, in my opinion, was in convincing people to accept that the state should raise the kids. Sure, people spend a couple of hours with them between days spent working mostly unnecessary jobs, but the bulk of modern education is provided by institutionalised school and TV. I agree with the importance of teaching kids math, reading comprehension, etc, but school is just terrible. It also teaches us to tolerate absurd levels of boredom, to replace thinking with accepting authority and it creates an artificial reward system, where one can get addicted to a feeling of accomplishment without accomplishing anything. Of course, all these things make us more compliant in later on accepting lives without meaning. Democracy is almost funny. People believe in this myth that it enforces the will of the people, but if you ask anyone individually you will find that you cannot easily find a person whose opinion ever influenced anything whatsoever. It's even hard to have an opinion. The better part of their days people are slaves, and when tired they are spoon fed badly disguised world views sprinkled over mindless entertainment. Everyone should have at least one psychedelic experience. This would change the world faster and better than any ideology. All religions have their psychedelic substances. Christianism is mainly wine (Christ blood!), although some pretended that Jesus took magic shrooms. Cannabis would already change a lot, and salvia, often called a medication to cure atheism (!) could bring much more change. Quite possibly. I heard a guy who researches compared religions make an interesting case that colourfully wrapped gifts under the christmas tree represent magic mushrooms -- stemming from a pagan tradition from cold European countries were magic mushrooms will, indeed, grow under pine trees in winter. Of course this is just a case where Christianism assimilated a pagan ritual. Telmo. Bruno Telmo. On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: Two more remarks: I´m astonished contemplating how people can contemplate with horror the belief in a god that they thing that it does not exist and accept the belief in worldly lies and praise completely invented myths about their favorite heroes Even if they know that are false. That Kim Jon Il wrote a mean of tree books a day is incredible for them but there are equally fantastic histories and Myths widely believed that would make Chesterton crap up. The wishfulthinker fall in tears when pronouncing his sacred capitalized worlds: People, Democracy, Equalty Human Rights and so on. In the past, Socialism, Worker Class and such craps motivated the same heart lifts. Today even the Terrorists invoke what they call Democracy with passion. But in his country, like in any other, the same families alternate in government, with a few exceptions, no matter the kind or regime and the political party. All are equals except that some are more equal than others. Perhaps things are closer to the Ancient Regime rather than to the myths of his utopic society. The more the utopics are in power, the more the ancient regime (that they had in the imagination) returns. Perhaps all such elevated concepts are not part of the reality but ideological constructions and their most known advocates, just power seekers that may deserve the worship of the wishfulthinkers? I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. 2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological (atheism is the religion of the state). The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society. But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other words, a myth. But a myth necessary for the state religion. Whenever there are laws there is a sovereingh lawyers. The people in democracy
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? Quentin How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. This is just Paul Tilllich trick to convert everyone to religion by redefining religion. People cannot live without trust - they can live just fine without faith in religion. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/5/2013 12:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Dec 2013, at 19:29, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrot I have already insist that God cannot be part of the explanation. We agree on this. Then I repeat my question, why add useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing to otherwise nice theories? To take into account the discovery already made by arithmetical machine that there is a transcendental truth responsible for their beliefs, which is beyond their beliefs. For the arithmetical machine that would be Peano's axioms and the rules of inference. I don't see that they are either transcendental or true? The space of such true but non rationally communicable truth is axiomatized, at the propositional level, by G* minus G, and this permits a transparent interpretation of Plotinus theology in arithmetic, and this illustrates already the fact that computationalism leads to a Platonist theology, and contradicts the common Aristotelian metaphysics/theology implicit among many scientists. But these transcendental, i.e. unprovable, truths are rather trivial: This sentence cannot be proven. They are not TRANSCENDENTAL the way theologians mean - beyond the natural world and edifying of human experience. Brent The experience of God, in the large sense I have given is part of the data in the puzzle. You might read my paper La machine Mystic, or the second part of the sane04 paper for more on this, if you are interested. This shows also that arithmetic explains not only the apparent existence of matter (constructively, and thus making comp testable), but it gives some light on altered consciousness and other brain perturbation experience, and mystical type of knowledge/beliefs/comprehension, making some other aspect of comp testable in some first person sense. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: I believe in science. That is my religion. Yes, but only if the meaning of the sequential ASCII characters r-e-l-i-g-i-o-n is anything you think is important. Some people are far more interested in the sound of words than what the words mean, that's why so many atheists say I believe in God when what they really mean is I like the sound my mouth makes when it pronounces the word G-O-D. Nothing intelligent or profound in any of this, just more silly word games. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. -Original Message- From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. I can. The defining characteristic of religious people is being seldom correct but always certain, and so quantum immortality is not a religion because I'm far from certain, I don't know that it's true and I don't know that it's untrue. Technically I'd have to say the same about the existence of God, but the probability that the Christian or Muslim God exists is, although nonzero, too low to worry about. I would guess that the probability quantum immortality exists is low, although vastly greater than the probability of God's existence. I don't know what the probability that my probability estimate is correct, probably pretty low. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Quentin wrote: *A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion.* *(*addressed to Richard's:I believe in science.That is my religion.) It is a questionable semantic situation what one can call an 'axiom', or even a math-groundrule (like: primes are primes ) what (I think) Bruno would deem so funamental that it cannot be justified into more fundamentals. Richard: you learned your (scientific) dogma-librARY in grade school, or earlier, Quentin - you fell for a philosophical (logistical?) argument that is fictitious. IMO a religion is not based on (a) dogma, it is based on a 'story' what people are willing to accept as a dogma. Then they kill the infidel. Or the gays. Or both. There are diverse gods: some are vain (require adoration and praise plus full obedience from their 'creatures') some are vicious and jealous, some cheat on their spouses, some kill for such. John M On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
John, I learned my physics dogma at Harvard Grad School. Before that I was a mechanical engineer. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 4:14 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Quentin wrote: *A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion.* *(*addressed to Richard's:I believe in science.That is my religion.) It is a questionable semantic situation what one can call an 'axiom', or even a math-groundrule (like: primes are primes ) what (I think) Bruno would deem so funamental that it cannot be justified into more fundamentals. Richard: you learned your (scientific) dogma-librARY in grade school, or earlier, Quentin - you fell for a philosophical (logistical?) argument that is fictitious. IMO a religion is not based on (a) dogma, it is based on a 'story' what people are willing to accept as a dogma. Then they kill the infidel. Or the gays. Or both. There are diverse gods: some are vain (require adoration and praise plus full obedience from their 'creatures') some are vicious and jealous, some cheat on their spouses, some kill for such. John M On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com I believe in science. That is my religion. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:35 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) Quentin -Original Message- From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. Quentin 2013/12/5 Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. BTW it is not dogma that I believe in. Richard On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for developing the beliefs? Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with religion... Quentin Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/5/2013 1:33 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com mailto:spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) But as I pointed out by quoting H. L. Mencken's Graveyard of the Gods, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of religions that have come and gone. I wouldn't say that they vanished because they were disproven. Often they have been deprived of adherents by conquest. Some have been displaced by newer or modified religions. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
But despite fundamentalism, like what killed Islamic science, it is here for good. (Any interpretation of the ambiguity will do) Rich On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 5:12 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:33 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 spudboy...@aol.com They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any current religion here on earth) But as I pointed out by quoting H. L. Mencken's Graveyard of the Gods, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of religions that have come and gone. I wouldn't say that they vanished because they were disproven. Often they have been deprived of adherents by conquest. Some have been displaced by newer or modified religions. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Dec 2013, at 01:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss. But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said before. So we're just watching as it unfolds. My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, nothing before or after, but what if there is? If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time. But this is something that we have already discussed a lot. Some (like me) agreed on compatibilist theory of free will. In fact we don't see how indeterminacy could help in the free will ability. Why should the fact that some super-machine, or god, can predict my behavior prevent it of being free? Free will is *self*-indetermination, not absolute indetermination. When we feel free to do something we want to do, we often say that we are determined to do it ... I think I agree. My view is that free will is a 1p experience that makes no sense as a 3p concept. But here I was arguing against a religious claim. Proposing that there is a God that is testing us, and that the meaning of or lives is to pass this test is a strong claim, one that can deeply affect people's behaviours. From an omniscient God's perspective, everything already happened. Trying to recover possible wishes of an entity at this God's level and introducing them at the level of our experience seems nonsensical. On the other hand, this type of claim sounds suspiciously convenient for some very human purposes... Telmo. Bruno And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother... What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are different moments, and it's not a replay. Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Hi Samiya, If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother? Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an hard subject) Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them and that everything is OK. But that state
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Two more remarks: I´m astonished contemplating how people can contemplate with horror the belief in a god that they thing that it does not exist and accept the belief in worldly lies and praise completely invented myths about their favorite heroes Even if they know that are false. That Kim Jon Il wrote a mean of tree books a day is incredible for them but there are equally fantastic histories and Myths widely believed that would make Chesterton crap up. The wishfulthinker fall in tears when pronouncing his sacred capitalized worlds: People, Democracy, Equalty Human Rights and so on. In the past, Socialism, Worker Class and such craps motivated the same heart lifts. Today even the Terrorists invoke what they call Democracy with passion. But in his country, like in any other, the same families alternate in government, with a few exceptions, no matter the kind or regime and the political party. All are equals except that some are more equal than others. Perhaps things are closer to the Ancient Regime rather than to the myths of his utopic society. The more the utopics are in power, the more the ancient regime (that they had in the imagination) returns. Perhaps all such elevated concepts are not part of the reality but ideological constructions and their most known advocates, just power seekers that may deserve the worship of the wishfulthinkers? I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. 2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological (atheism is the religion of the state). The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society. But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other words, a myth. But a myth necessary for the state religion. Whenever there are laws there is a sovereingh lawyers. The people in democracy is such lawyer say the modern wishfulthinker. That is nothing but another two myths. hypostases, something that does not exist bu in the mind by an effort of faith for the purpose of social cooperation. So to summarize, the human mind can not live withouth myths. If he reject the given ones, he invent its own. 2013/12/1 LizR lizj...@gmail.com Because there are no obvious signs of government in the universe, I would say. On 2 December 2013 10:29, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- http://www.avast.com/ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirushttp://www.avast.com/protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Hi Alberto, I agree with you that religion cannot be avoided in this sense. Here's a funny example: The Leipzig secular solstice celebration: http://lesswrong.com/meetups/u6 Here's a video of some guy who's trying to become a priest for atheists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vIFloLATxo (I still have some hope that the guy is a comedian, in which case he's a genius) One of the most perverse tricks that the system played on us, in my opinion, was in convincing people to accept that the state should raise the kids. Sure, people spend a couple of hours with them between days spent working mostly unnecessary jobs, but the bulk of modern education is provided by institutionalised school and TV. I agree with the importance of teaching kids math, reading comprehension, etc, but school is just terrible. It also teaches us to tolerate absurd levels of boredom, to replace thinking with accepting authority and it creates an artificial reward system, where one can get addicted to a feeling of accomplishment without accomplishing anything. Of course, all these things make us more compliant in later on accepting lives without meaning. Democracy is almost funny. People believe in this myth that it enforces the will of the people, but if you ask anyone individually you will find that you cannot easily find a person whose opinion ever influenced anything whatsoever. It's even hard to have an opinion. The better part of their days people are slaves, and when tired they are spoon fed badly disguised world views sprinkled over mindless entertainment. Everyone should have at least one psychedelic experience. This would change the world faster and better than any ideology. Telmo. On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: Two more remarks: I´m astonished contemplating how people can contemplate with horror the belief in a god that they thing that it does not exist and accept the belief in worldly lies and praise completely invented myths about their favorite heroes Even if they know that are false. That Kim Jon Il wrote a mean of tree books a day is incredible for them but there are equally fantastic histories and Myths widely believed that would make Chesterton crap up. The wishfulthinker fall in tears when pronouncing his sacred capitalized worlds: People, Democracy, Equalty Human Rights and so on. In the past, Socialism, Worker Class and such craps motivated the same heart lifts. Today even the Terrorists invoke what they call Democracy with passion. But in his country, like in any other, the same families alternate in government, with a few exceptions, no matter the kind or regime and the political party. All are equals except that some are more equal than others. Perhaps things are closer to the Ancient Regime rather than to the myths of his utopic society. The more the utopics are in power, the more the ancient regime (that they had in the imagination) returns. Perhaps all such elevated concepts are not part of the reality but ideological constructions and their most known advocates, just power seekers that may deserve the worship of the wishfulthinkers? I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religion or religions like you can not live alone. 2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological (atheism is the religion of the state). The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society. But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other words, a myth. But a myth necessary for the state religion. Whenever there are laws there is a sovereingh lawyers. The people in democracy is such lawyer say the modern wishfulthinker. That is nothing but another two myths. hypostases, something that does not exist bu in the mind by an effort of faith for the purpose of social cooperation. So to summarize, the human mind can not live withouth myths. If he reject the given ones, he invent its own. 2013/12/1 LizR lizj...@gmail.com Because there are no obvious signs of government in the universe, I would say. On 2 December 2013 10:29, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- http://www.avast.com/
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 5 December 2013 04:24, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Hi Alberto, Everyone should have at least one psychedelic experience. This would change the world faster and better than any ideology. It was saying that sort of thing that got Doctor Timothy Leary locked up, bless him. At about my age he was dangling from a rope making his escape over the wall at some penitentiary, rather than sitting around the fire with his kids smoking dope. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 5 December 2013 04:24, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: One of the most perverse tricks that the system played on us, in my opinion, was in convincing people to accept that the state should raise the kids. Sure, people spend a couple of hours with them between days spent working mostly unnecessary jobs, but the bulk of modern education is provided by institutionalised school and TV. I agree with the importance of teaching kids math, reading comprehension, etc, but school is just terrible. It also teaches us to tolerate absurd levels of boredom, to replace thinking with accepting authority and it creates an artificial reward system, where one can get addicted to a feeling of accomplishment without accomplishing anything. Of course, all these things make us more compliant in later on accepting lives without meaning. The purpose of school is to raise the next generation of wage slaves, so it's geared to whatever that requires. Democracy is almost funny. People believe in this myth that it enforces the will of the people, but if you ask anyone individually you will find that you cannot easily find a person whose opinion ever influenced anything whatsoever. It's even hard to have an opinion. The better part of their days people are slaves, and when tired they are spoon fed badly disguised world views sprinkled over mindless entertainment. I think I love you. I've been saying this sort of thing for years, but rarely have I managed to do it so articulately. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:18 AM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 03-Dec-2013, at 5:42 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss. But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said before. So we're just watching as it unfolds. From our vantage point, one could argue that. Yet, all it does is paralyse action. There is a strong emphasis placed on hope and forgiveness. Believers are not allowed to be 'sit and watch it out'. Belief without good deeds is no good. My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, nothing before or after, but what if there is? If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time. It is attributed to Caliph Ali that when someone asked him about this, he asked the person to stand on one foot, with the other foot folded behind him. Next he asked the person to stand with both feet folded up. Obviously the latter is not humanly possible. That, he said, is the difference between what we can choose to do and what we have no choice about. If Caliph Ali told me to stand on one of my feet, I could choose left or right. But god already knows which one I'm going to choose right? So if god knows I'm going to choose to stand on my right foot, then I'm going to stand on my right foot. I might think that I could have chosen to stand on the left foot, but this would clearly be an illusion. And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother... What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are different moments, and it's not a replay. How about a 3D video playback? Suppose we take this moment we are in right now and replay it N times. In each one of these replays, we cannot be aware that it is a replay, otherwise it's not the same moment. The exact state of our must be repeated, so it cannot contain the information that we're in a replay. Then the concept of replay becomes absurd. It's like replacing one hydrogen atom with another hydrogen atom and claim that something changed. Replay implies time, and time is already inside our experiences. What would a replay mean from outside of our experience? Do you see my problem? Well, it is said that our eyes, ears and skins will bear witness to what we used to do in this life, as God will give them the power of speech. So that will be different. It is possible to find many interesting thoughts in religious texts. Clearly some were written by people doing deep introspection, probably with the aid of some plants. I don't think they were meant to be taken literally. It's like looking at a painting by Dali and then deciding to look for the location of the landscape he painted. It's not outside. Telmo. Samiya Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Yes. Consider another example: when a software is designed which accepts user inputs, all possible inputs are considered and responses coded accordingly. So, when the software is bring used, the user provides whatever input he wills, but his possible choices are already known. And another example: a teacher teaches his students for a whole year, sets the paper and then the students take the exam. The teacher knows the students well enough to know what to expect from which student, yet they are given the opportunity to take the exam. It's not the teacher's fault if some students fail while others make it through and some excel. All are being graded according to the amount of effort and interest they put in throughout the year and in preparation of the exam, and how seriously they took the exam. The above are but human-human interactions. With God as the software designer and the teacher, how much more exact His estimation of the outcomes would be. Moreover, in the software example, the result of a user input is already pre-coded (predetermined), yet the user uses the software (actions / deeds), and the outcomes (judgement) reflect user-input. Samiya On 03-Dec-2013, at 3:50 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:18 AM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 03-Dec-2013, at 5:42 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss. But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said before. So we're just watching as it unfolds. From our vantage point, one could argue that. Yet, all it does is paralyse action. There is a strong emphasis placed on hope and forgiveness. Believers are not allowed to be 'sit and watch it out'. Belief without good deeds is no good. My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, nothing before or after, but what if there is? If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time. It is attributed to Caliph Ali that when someone asked him about this, he asked the person to stand on one foot, with the other foot folded behind him. Next he asked the person to stand with both feet folded up. Obviously the latter is not humanly possible. That, he said, is the difference between what we can choose to do and what we have no choice about. If Caliph Ali told me to stand on one of my feet, I could choose left or right. But god already knows which one I'm going to choose right? So if god knows I'm going to choose to stand on my right foot, then I'm going to stand on my right foot. I might think that I could have chosen to stand on the left foot, but this would clearly be an illusion. And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother... What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are different moments, and it's not a replay. How about a 3D video playback? Suppose we take this moment we are in right now and replay it N times. In each one of these replays, we cannot be aware that it is a replay, otherwise it's not the same moment. The exact state of our must be repeated, so it cannot contain the information that we're in a replay. Then the concept of replay becomes absurd. It's like replacing one hydrogen atom with another hydrogen atom and claim that something changed. Replay implies time, and time is already inside our experiences. What would a replay mean from outside of our experience? Do you see my problem? Well, it is
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
The best example I know of along these lines is photosynthesis. Allow me to quote from the most recent Journal of Neuroquantology: The superposition of a particle, enabling it to exist in a number of different states or locations simultaneously, is an idea that has been used to study how photosynthesis operates.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7137/full/nature05678.html Photosynthesis is an exceptionally efficient process, and it seems that this efficiency is made possible by the fact that superpositioning and coherence allow photons striking light absorbing molecules such as chlorophyll to try all possible routes through to the reaction center simultaneously, before settling for the optimal path. http://www.neuroquantology.com/index.php/journal/announcement/view/68 What I find most interesting is that a single optimal path is chosen from all possibly routes, kind of the opposite of an MWI reality where over time in a single world, all of the non-optimal routes would also have been chosen. Could this be evidence for falsification of MWI? Richard On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.comwrote: Yes. Consider another example: when a software is designed which accepts user inputs, all possible inputs are considered and responses coded accordingly. So, when the software is bring used, the user provides whatever input he wills, but his possible choices are already known. And another example: a teacher teaches his students for a whole year, sets the paper and then the students take the exam. The teacher knows the students well enough to know what to expect from which student, yet they are given the opportunity to take the exam. It's not the teacher's fault if some students fail while others make it through and some excel. All are being graded according to the amount of effort and interest they put in throughout the year and in preparation of the exam, and how seriously they took the exam. The above are but human-human interactions. With God as the software designer and the teacher, how much more exact His estimation of the outcomes would be. Moreover, in the software example, the result of a user input is already pre-coded (predetermined), yet the user uses the software (actions / deeds), and the outcomes (judgement) reflect user-input. Samiya On 03-Dec-2013, at 3:50 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:18 AM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 03-Dec-2013, at 5:42 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss. But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said before. So we're just watching as it unfolds. From our vantage point, one could argue that. Yet, all it does is paralyse action. There is a strong emphasis placed on hope and forgiveness. Believers are not allowed to be 'sit and watch it out'. Belief without good deeds is no good. My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, nothing before or after, but what if there is? If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time. It is attributed to Caliph Ali that when someone asked him about this, he asked the person to stand on one foot, with the other foot folded behind him. Next he asked the person to stand with both feet folded up. Obviously the latter is not humanly possible. That, he said, is the difference between what we can choose to do and what we have no choice about. If Caliph Ali told me to stand on one of my feet, I could choose left or right. But god already knows which one I'm going to choose right? So if god knows I'm going to choose to stand on my right foot, then I'm
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrot Yes. After St-Thomas, most catholic theologian agree that God cannot make 17 into a composite number. God obeys to logic, So the God theory has zero explanatory power That does not follow. I think it does. Newton's theory obeys to logic too. Yes, neither Newton's theory nor the God theory can explain why there is something rather than nothing, so why pick the theory that just inserts pointless wheels within wheels? Even for questions less deep the God has power theory still explains nothing unless it can explain exactly how that power works, and if you understand all about that power then God Himself becomes redundant, a useless fifth wheel. For example, if you say that God created the first living organism on the Earth 4 billion years ago that explains nothing unless you can explain how He did it, and if you know that you don't need God. I have already insist that God cannot be part of the explanation. We agree on this. Then I repeat my question, why add useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing to otherwise nice theories? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 02 Dec 2013, at 20:35, Samiya Illias wrote: On 02-Dec-2013, at 11:45 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 18:46, Samiya Illias wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. I can make sense, but in the machine's theory, some truth there need to remain silent, as they will look like nonsense for some people. It is of the type only going without saying. Okay No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Are you open to doubt your theory? Or some points in your theory? There was a time when I doubted. I read and discussed with many theists of other faiths and atheists. I also studied the Quran more objectively, questioning the translations and my interpretations. I am still open to new ideas and do accept what convinces me. However, I find that I am more convinced now than before. Careful not to confuse first person conviction, which sometimes are founded, and what you can communicate to others, which should be interrogative, if only to avoid a feeling of being not understood when the matter was only a vocabulary issue. If not it means you stay connected to the incommunicable part, and you take the risk of saying to much, and fuel disbelief, even and especially when not wrong. If I do not honestly give my input, its not fair to others. Choices come with consequences, and when seeking truth, one must take risks... I hope my honesty is of help to someone. I suspect, a bit by theory, a bit by experience, that you lose all battles, in the long run, if you present yourself as someone knowing the truth, especially inn front of platonist of buddhist, or mechanist, who suspect that *all* experience (but one or two) can fail us. The one on which we cannot be failed are private, not communicable. And, btw, what is your position on computationalism, because this is an hypothesis shared by many here (if only for the sake of the argument). I believe we are all in a giant software and everything, including us, are computed. So, your deductions from your work do fascinate me. Nice. Would you accept that you or some friend get an artificial digital brain? Like Ganesh? :) That's hyper-advanced computationalism :) With a copy of your brain at the right substitution level is simpler to begin with ... Have you think about this question? Have you an idea of the consequence for consciousness and physical realities, and for the possible theologies? Or you're suggesting 'soulless' clones? I was thinking to the fact that the physical reality might be deducible from what any universal machine can discover looking inward. That pythagorus and Plato might more correct than the Aristotelian on that matter. Machines, or numbers, discover more than that in the process, in fact more than the mathematical reality, in a sense. Bruno Samiya Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
How can a grown (wo)man be NOT atheist? Answer: by cutting out logics and to BELIEVE what religious enslavers want him/her to believe and by subjecting himself to the rules of (that particular) religion and/or te RULER behind it. If a 'grown person' does not 'believe' in the religious fables about a God it does not mean Roger's conclusion (i.e. that the universe functions WITHOUT some form of government) - beware of the SOME FORM OF - it is not restricted to the corrupt authoritarian, or elected politicians ruining a country in their interest. It may be the right PLAY of relations in a wider sense. The universe (in my narrative: the Plenitude, of which 'universes' pop out whenever concentration of effects violate the ultimate symmetry, ruling the Plenitude - for immediately returning (smoothened in) into it in the Plenitude's timeless view (yet allowing immense time- and space latitudes from the inside of such pop-out universe) and the 'government' of such phenomenon is the unlimited complexity it lives by. We have no knowledge of how it works, but we are continually gathering knowledge and - maybe - know more today than yesterday (meaning 1000 - 3000 - etc. years ago --- all looked of course from and into the inside of OUR universe). John Mikes On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- http://www.avast.com/ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirushttp://www.avast.com/protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 02 Dec 2013, at 00:51, Jesse Mazer wrote: To add to my last comment, the article at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-modal/ mentions that Leibniz was among those philosophers who distinguished between necessary and contingent truths, and only granted God the power to change contingent ones. Here's a relevant bit from the article: Consider the way Leibniz distinguishes necessary and contingent truths in §13 of the Discourse on Metaphysics. The one whose contrary implies a contradiction is absolutely necessary; this deduction occurs in the eternal truths, for example, the truths of geometry. The other is necessary only ex hypothesi and, so to speak, accidentally, but it is contingent in itself, since its contrary does not imply a contradiction. And this connection is based not purely on ideas and God's simple understanding, but on his free decrees and on the sequence of the universe. (A VI iv 1547/AG 45) I think that this is about the same error as believing that free will needs indeterminacy. So, what's wrong with adopting Tegmark's solution which takes our universe as a Platonic mathematical structure, so that all truths about it are necessary ones too? But if it is one mathematical structure, and not another, that would make it contingent. I think the laws of physics are mathematical necessities, because the physical illusion is an arithmetical process involving all universal machines, which is a well defined notions (assuming Church Thesis). Then there would be no need for a creator God, though one might still talk about a sort of Spinoza-esque pantheist God (especially if one also prefers panpsychism as a solution to the metaphysical problem of the relation between consciousness and third-person objective reality) But that would make a brain or a computer unnecessary for being conscious relatively to some stories. That would work, as indeed, by negating comp, we can still imagine some infinite mathematical structure linking brain and mind, in a way avoiding the FPI and the reversal consequence of the comp assumption. But then we can't survive with a brain-computer, and we can't use computer science in philosophy of mind and theology. Bruno On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Jesse Mazer wrote: Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of pure mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical rules themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? Certainly most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical laws, and one could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our universe is just another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of mathematical forms. On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
No reason at all. I'm just sharing my understanding on the topic, so that 1) if I'm wrong, someone will point out the flaw in my understanding 2) if my understanding is generally pointing towards the correct theory / belief, perhaps it'll be of use to someone. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 12:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/1/2013 9:11 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. That's what you say you believe. But is there any reason I should believe it? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 02 Dec 2013, at 06:11, Samiya Illias wrote: This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? Making It consistent is not really limiting it. Accepting the idea that God can be inconsistent quickly leads to inconsistent theology, which is the fuel of atheism. (that is why atheists defends all the time the most inconsistent notion of God, and deter people to search by themselves in the field). We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. OK. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. I don't know. Bruno Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of pure mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical rules themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? Certainly most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical laws, and one could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our universe is just another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of mathematical forms. On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
By the way, Tegmark has a new book coming out Jan 14, I do recall. -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Dec 1, 2013 7:28 pm Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? On 2 December 2013 12:51, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: To add to my last comment, the article at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-modal/ mentions that Leibniz was among those philosophers who distinguished between necessary and contingent truths, and only granted God the power to change contingent ones. Here's a relevant bit from the article: Consider the way Leibniz distinguishes necessary and contingent truths in §13 of the Discourse on Metaphysics. The one whose contrary implies a contradiction is absolutely necessary; this deduction occurs in the eternal truths, for example, the truths of geometry. The other is necessary only ex hypothesi and, so to speak, accidentally, but it is contingent in itself, since its contrary does not imply a contradiction. And this connection is based not purely on ideas and God's simple understanding, but on his free decrees and on the sequence of the universe. (A VI iv 1547/AG 45) So, what's wrong with adopting Tegmark's solution which takes our universe as a Platonic mathematical structure, so that all truths about it are necessary ones too? Then there would be no need for a creator God, though one might still talk about a sort of Spinoza-esque pantheist God (especially if one also prefers panpsychism as a solution to the metaphysical problem of the relation between consciousness and third-person objective reality) I am of the same opinion, that reality is probably in some sense emergent from logically necessary truths - however, possible objections include: The Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (MUH) doesn't make testable predictions (Tegmark claims it does, about the gerenicity of the universe we should expect to find ourselves in, but there have been objections that this isn't quantifiable, etc). Various objections by materialists - for example, they have been known to object that there aren't resources available in the universe to do the maths and similar level confusions. This tends to come down to I don't believe it! (usually expressed as something like extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence etc, but that's what they mean). These need not concern us too much, because they are basically religious objetions - they don't like their metaphysical premises being questioned. The MUH doesn't address the nature of consciousness. Tegmark describes consciousness as (somethnig like) what data feels like when it's being processed but this bit of hand-waving fails to explain qualia etc. Bruno will perhaps have more to say on this. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
We're just guessing on this Samiya, or our ancestors, really. What God may be, is may not exactly fit the Omni,characterizations. Moreover, being a practical, American, we have to know, in a self-interested way, what good/benefit does knowing about God do for us. A ridiculous statement, and yet, We the Who in Whoville, to quote Dr. Suess-Geisel, need to know. -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Dec 2, 2013 12:13 am Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of pure mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical rules themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? Certainly most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical laws, and one could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our universe is just another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of mathematical forms. On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, ...' Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 3:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 06:11, Samiya Illias wrote: This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? Making It consistent is not really limiting it. Accepting the idea that God can be inconsistent quickly leads to inconsistent theology, which is the fuel of atheism. (that is why atheists defends all the time the most inconsistent notion of God, and deter people to search by themselves in the field). We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. OK. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. I don't know. Bruno Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of pure mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical rules themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? Certainly most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical laws, and one could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our universe is just another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of mathematical forms. On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Maybe. I'm a Muslim and the more I learn of science, the more convinced I get of the authenticity of the Quran. Hence, when I read about the purpose of this life and the hereafter, I do take it very seriously. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:54 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: We're just guessing on this Samiya, or our ancestors, really. What God may be, is may not exactly fit the Omni,characterizations. Moreover, being a practical, American, we have to know, in a self-interested way, what good/benefit does knowing about God do for us. A ridiculous statement, and yet, We the Who in Whoville, to quote Dr. Suess-Geisel, need to know. -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Dec 2, 2013 12:13 am Subject: Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ? This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of pure mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical rules themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? Certainly most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical laws, and one could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our universe is just another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of mathematical forms. On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
What I say is that atheism is NOT an option. Not only because Chesterton said that anyone who does nor believe in God will en up believing in anything, but also because that is in the structure of the human mind as is know by personal introspection (the greek philosophers), historical experiience (any religion-less community that lasted?) and by game theoretical+ evolutionary reasons that i tried to explain here. At the moment that you reject a deity, you accept other. The religion of atheists is quite similar to a primitive religion because religion emerges in its primitive form when you reject your own. But the human mind can not work with impersonal myths. Whenever impersonal myths are created, exist also personal entities that become myts. Normally the ones that created these myths of fighted for them. The most primitive form is the cult to the personality, that is the cult to a living god-man. Who was the leader of the tribu, whose actions are mtified and celebrated. Of course this is the worst of all kinds of religions. That happens ever when a society tried to establish itself in abstract principles, being them comunism, equality, progress, rule of law, evolution etc. As an example, after the cult to Hitler, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jon II, Castro.. and many others.. the modern cult to Darwin http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/ep055269.pdf Incidentally the reason why the cult to Lincoln, Jefferson etc is so weak is because the American constitution IS a constitution under a personal God. 2013/12/2 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. Ok, but here I think government is meant as some pre-existing complexity. While the laws of physics are simpler than their outcome, the christian god is more complex that its outcome. And, rephrasing what Liz said, we never found any evidence of higher complexity downstream. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological (atheism is the religion of the state). The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society. But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other words, a myth. But a myth necessary for the state religion. Whenever there are laws there is a sovereingh lawyers. The people in democracy is such lawyer say the modern wishfulthinker. That is nothing but another two myths. hypostases, something that does not exist bu in the mind by an effort of faith for the purpose of social cooperation. So to summarize, the human mind can not live withouth myths. If he reject the given ones, he invent its own. I would say that it's society that can't live without myths, and we can't live without society. Since we have no agency over society but we depend on it for survival, we must be part of a super-organism. Some of our behaviour has to be molecule-like, but our human minds want to feel they are in control. So we post-rationalise. We haven't found a way for society to work without dominance, so we rationalise this dominance in increasingly sophisticated ways. In democracy, the dominated are accomplices in keeping the illusion, because they want to reap the benefits of being subservient without having to signal subservience. The voting ritual makes this possible. Breaking such illusions is a very dangerous proposition, as we've seen in Europe in the first half or the 20th century (early republicanism broke the monarchy illusion but quickly degrading into fascism -- fascism had more powerful binding myths to offer, and a lesson had to be learned). Of course, as you point out, republics come with a myth set of their own. Modern law is a very sophisticated, if perverse system. Many laws are not meant to be followed. They are used to post-rationalise punishment for breaking unwritten rules that nobody wants to acknowledge but all want to enforce. Telmo. 2013/12/1 LizR lizj...@gmail.com Because there are no obvious signs of government in the universe, I would say. On 2 December 2013 10:29, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- http://www.avast.com/ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirushttp://www.avast.com/protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
I agree that perfect knowledge and command of logic and math and et al are necessary attributes of God. When I say God is consistent, I mean that God is so perfect in His plan that He doesn't even have any need to change His decree or methods. However, God reserves the power and the right to do what He wills, when He wills, and that may appear imperfect to us mortals within our limited senses and knowledge. However, Jesse, I won't try to answer the following questions, as that would be pure speculation. I'm not even sure if I understand the first question properly. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 6:38 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: But consistency is itself a logical notion. If you think God can change the laws of logic, can God make it so that he is both perfect and not-perfect, with perfect having exactly the same meaning in both cases? Note that believing God cannot change logic need not imply logic is independent of God for theists, they may say that logic is grounded in God's eternal understanding, to use the same word as Leibniz. So perfect understanding of logic and math can be seen as necessary attributes of God, along with other more specifically theistic attributes like perfection, omnipotence, omniscience etc. Do you believe that God has necessary attributes that God cannot change, so for example God cannot make a new being more powerful than Himself since this would violate omnipotence? On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, ...' Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 3:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 06:11, Samiya Illias wrote: This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? Making It consistent is not really limiting it. Accepting the idea that God can be inconsistent quickly leads to inconsistent theology, which is the fuel of atheism. (that is why atheists defends all the time the most inconsistent notion of God, and deter people to search by themselves in the field). We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. OK. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. I don't know. Bruno Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of pure mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical rules themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? Certainly most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical laws, and one could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our universe is just another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of mathematical forms. On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an hard subject) Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them and that everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us accept more easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be fatal for the incarnation of the good. The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's perfection? You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive attributes and as such is perfect, and one day we will understand the tragedies, but I am not sure such a God makes sense for the universal machines. If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth belonging to G*, and not G. That would mean that God was perfect ... until you said so. The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from some shared assumptions. If you say God is perfect to those who lost people they care about, it might be impolite, and you will again fuel atheism. Hell is paved with the best intentions. God might also not be perfect, and you might have the right to be angry against She/Him/It. I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, God created logic and the integers, and arithmetic. Then he said Oops!. Analysis, Topology, Algebra, Physics, History, Geography, archeology and Theology are tools for the integers to understand themselves. Truth already warns the numbers: the path is infinite and there are surprises. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
The first question involves a logical contradiction--the statement God is
perfect being simultaneously true and false--so of course it is impossible
for us to imagine what it might mean, and since I think the laws of logic
are unchangeable I think it's a completely meaningless description. But if
you believe God can change the laws of logic, you should believe God can
change the logical rule known as the law of noncontradiction (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction ) which says a
proposition cannot be both true and false.
On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote:
I agree that perfect knowledge and command of logic and math and et al are
necessary attributes of God.
When I say God is consistent, I mean that God is so perfect in His plan
that He doesn't even have any need to change His decree or methods.
However, God reserves the power and the right to do what He wills, when He
wills, and that may appear imperfect to us mortals within our limited
senses and knowledge.
However, Jesse, I won't try to answer the following questions, as that
would be pure speculation. I'm not even sure if I understand the first
question properly.
Samiya
Sent from my iPhone
On 02-Dec-2013, at 6:38 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote:
But consistency is itself a logical notion. If you think God can change
the laws of logic, can God make it so that he is both perfect and
not-perfect, with perfect having exactly the same meaning in both cases?
Note that believing God cannot change logic need not imply logic is
independent of God for theists, they may say that logic is grounded in
God's eternal understanding, to use the same word as Leibniz. So perfect
understanding of logic and math can be seen as necessary attributes of God,
along with other more specifically theistic attributes like
perfection, omnipotence, omniscience etc. Do you believe that God has
necessary attributes that God cannot change, so for example God cannot make
a new being more powerful than Himself since this would violate omnipotence?
On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote:
I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in
every possible meaning of the word.
I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers
and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create
the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or
any other necessary truths, ...'
Samiya
Sent from my iPhone
On 02-Dec-2013, at 3:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
On 02 Dec 2013, at 06:11, Samiya Illias wrote:
This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God?
Making It consistent is not really limiting it.
Accepting the idea that God can be inconsistent quickly leads to
inconsistent theology, which is the fuel of atheism.
(that is why atheists defends all the time the most inconsistent notion of
God, and deter people to search by themselves in the field).
We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer,
and the Final Goal.
OK.
Everything is as God wills and allows it to be.
I don't know.
Bruno
Sent from my iPhone
On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote:
Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue
agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have
the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists
might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as
omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of pure
mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical rules
themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? Certainly
most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical laws, and one
could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our universe is just
another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of mathematical forms.
On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote:
How can a grown man be an atheist ?
An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can
function without some form of government.
How silly.
Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
See my Leibniz site at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
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Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: What I say is that atheism is NOT an option. Ok, you appear to be alluding to something deeper than the need to overcome prisoner dilemmas. I recognise that there is a need to put something at the root of the ontology, and also a need for meaning. Without meaning life becomes very depressing -- unless one is so absorbed by some task that one doesn't even think about such things. That is a blissful feeling, that I can get from coding, sometimes. Which leads me to this question: do you figure that practitioners of Zen Buddhism still have a deity? Telmo. Not only because Chesterton said that anyone who does nor believe in God will en up believing in anything, but also because that is in the structure of the human mind as is know by personal introspection (the greek philosophers), historical experiience (any religion-less community that lasted?) and by game theoretical+ evolutionary reasons that i tried to explain here. At the moment that you reject a deity, you accept other. The religion of atheists is quite similar to a primitive religion because religion emerges in its primitive form when you reject your own. But the human mind can not work with impersonal myths. Whenever impersonal myths are created, exist also personal entities that become myts. Normally the ones that created these myths of fighted for them. The most primitive form is the cult to the personality, that is the cult to a living god-man. Who was the leader of the tribu, whose actions are mtified and celebrated. Of course this is the worst of all kinds of religions. That happens ever when a society tried to establish itself in abstract principles, being them comunism, equality, progress, rule of law, evolution etc. As an example, after the cult to Hitler, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jon II, Castro.. and many others.. the modern cult to Darwin http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/ep055269.pdf Incidentally the reason why the cult to Lincoln, Jefferson etc is so weak is because the American constitution IS a constitution under a personal God. 2013/12/2 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. Ok, but here I think government is meant as some pre-existing complexity. While the laws of physics are simpler than their outcome, the christian god is more complex that its outcome. And, rephrasing what Liz said, we never found any evidence of higher complexity downstream. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological (atheism is the religion of the state). The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society. But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other words, a myth. But a myth necessary for the state religion. Whenever there are laws there is a sovereingh lawyers. The people in democracy is such lawyer say the modern wishfulthinker. That is nothing but another two myths. hypostases, something that does not exist bu in the mind by an effort of faith for the purpose of social cooperation. So to summarize, the human mind can not live withouth myths. If he reject the given ones, he invent its own. I would say that it's society that can't live without myths, and we can't live without society. Since we have no agency over society but we depend on it for survival, we must be part of a super-organism. Some of our behaviour has to be molecule-like, but our human minds want to feel they are in control. So we post-rationalise. We haven't found a way for society to work without dominance, so we rationalise this dominance in increasingly sophisticated ways. In democracy, the dominated are accomplices in keeping the illusion, because they want to reap the benefits of being subservient without having to signal subservience. The voting ritual makes this possible. Breaking such illusions is a very dangerous proposition, as we've seen in Europe in the first half or the 20th century (early republicanism broke the monarchy illusion but quickly degrading into fascism -- fascism had more powerful binding myths to offer, and a lesson had to be learned). Of course, as you point out, republics come with a myth set of their own. Modern law is a very sophisticated, if perverse system. Many laws are not meant to be followed. They are used to post-rationalise punishment for breaking unwritten rules that nobody wants to acknowledge but all want to enforce. Telmo. 2013/12/1 LizR lizj...@gmail.com Because there are no obvious
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an hard subject) Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them and that everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us accept more easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be fatal for the incarnation of the good. The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's perfection? You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive attributes and as such is perfect, and one day we will understand the tragedies, but I am not sure such a God makes sense for the universal machines. If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth belonging to G*, and not G. That would mean that God was perfect ... until you said so. The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from some shared assumptions. If you say God is perfect to those who lost people they care about, it might be impolite, and you will again fuel atheism. Hell is paved with the best intentions. God might also not be perfect, and you might have the right to be angry against She/Him/It. I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, God created logic and the integers, and arithmetic. Then he said Oops!. Analysis, Topology, Algebra, Physics, History, Geography, archeology and Theology are tools for the integers to understand themselves. Truth already warns the numbers: the path is infinite and there are surprises. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
You explained it yourself: ' so of course it is impossible for us to imagine what it might mean, '. Trying to answer it would be just pretending to be 'all-wise' and consequently making a fool of myself :) Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:13 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: The first question involves a logical contradiction--the statement God is perfect being simultaneously true and false--so of course it is impossible for us to imagine what it might mean, and since I think the laws of logic are unchangeable I think it's a completely meaningless description. But if you believe God can change the laws of logic, you should believe God can change the logical rule known as the law of noncontradiction ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction ) which says a proposition cannot be both true and false. On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that perfect knowledge and command of logic and math and et al are necessary attributes of God. When I say God is consistent, I mean that God is so perfect in His plan that He doesn't even have any need to change His decree or methods. However, God reserves the power and the right to do what He wills, when He wills, and that may appear imperfect to us mortals within our limited senses and knowledge. However, Jesse, I won't try to answer the following questions, as that would be pure speculation. I'm not even sure if I understand the first question properly. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 6:38 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: But consistency is itself a logical notion. If you think God can change the laws of logic, can God make it so that he is both perfect and not-perfect, with perfect having exactly the same meaning in both cases? Note that believing God cannot change logic need not imply logic is independent of God for theists, they may say that logic is grounded in God's eternal understanding, to use the same word as Leibniz. So perfect understanding of logic and math can be seen as necessary attributes of God, along with other more specifically theistic attributes like perfection, omnipotence, omniscience etc. Do you believe that God has necessary attributes that God cannot change, so for example God cannot make a new being more powerful than Himself since this would violate omnipotence? On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, ...' Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 3:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 06:11, Samiya Illias wrote: This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? Making It consistent is not really limiting it. Accepting the idea that God can be inconsistent quickly leads to inconsistent theology, which is the fuel of atheism. (that is why atheists defends all the time the most inconsistent notion of God, and deter people to search by themselves in the field). We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. OK. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. I don't know. Bruno Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of pure mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical rules themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? Certainly most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical laws, and one could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our universe is just another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of mathematical forms. On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Hi Samiya, If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother? Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an hard subject) Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them and that everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us accept more easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be fatal for the incarnation of the good. The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's perfection? You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive attributes and as such is perfect, and one day we will understand the tragedies, but I am not sure such a God makes sense for the universal machines. If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth belonging to G*, and not G. That would mean that God was perfect ... until you said so. The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from some shared assumptions. If you say God is perfect to those who lost people they care about, it might be impolite, and you will again fuel atheism. Hell is paved with the best intentions. God might also not be perfect, and you might have the right to be angry against She/Him/It. I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, God created logic and the integers, and arithmetic. Then he said Oops!. Analysis, Topology, Algebra, Physics, History, Geography, archeology and Theology are tools for the integers to understand themselves. Truth already warns the numbers: the path is infinite and there are surprises. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 02 Dec 2013, at 14:58, Jesse Mazer wrote: The Muslim philosophers and theologians I have found addressing the issue seem to agree that there are necessary truths that God cannot change, which include logical necessity. Examples: From http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/K057 on Abu Hamid al- Ghazali, who rejected causal necessity but seems to have accepted logical necessity-- Unlike the Ash'arites, however, al-Ghazali presents a philosophical argument for this position. The only form of necessity he recognizes is logical necessity, and he has little difficulty in showing that causes do not logically necessitate their effects. Also see http://www.betsymccall.net/edu/philo/blackbox.pdf causality's black box which suggests al-Ghazali accepts geometric necessity. Another Muslim thinker who discussed the issue is Ibn Rushd or Averroes, quoted on p. 85 of An Introduction to Classical Islamic Philosophy by Leaman (Averroes had great influence on Maimonides and Aquinas as discussed at http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2011-11-08-malik-en.html ): Those evil events which inevitably affect the individual cannot be said not to have come from God...he cannot do absolutely anything at all, for the corruptible cannot be eternal, nor can the eternal be corruptible. In the same way that the angles of a triangle cannot be equal to four right angles, and in the same way that colour cannot be heard, so it is an offence against human reason to reject such propositions. There has been a Muslim Neoplatonist branche, but like with the Christians, neoplatonism survived only partially, on the Sufi, like on the Cabbala. Ibn Arabi is also quite interesting. Averroes will influence Maimonides and Aquinas to diverge or deviate from Platonism (and from comp, thus) Where is my book on Muslim Neoplatonism? Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Yes. After St-Thomas, most catholic theologian agree that God cannot make 17 into a composite number. God obeys to logic, So the God theory has zero explanatory power and even if God does exist He is just as mystified as to why there is something rather than nothing as we are. This does not really limit his power Even for questions less deep the God has power theory still explains nothing unless it can explain exactly how that power works, and if you understand all about that power then God Himself becomes redundant, a useless fifth wheel. For example, if you say that God created the first living organism on the Earth 4 billion years ago that explains nothing unless you can explain how He did it, and if you know that you don't need God. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/2/2013 1:04 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: No reason at all. I'm just sharing my understanding on the topic, so that No, you are just asserting your position. That's not understanding. Understanding something implies knowing reasons why it might be true, being able to infer consequences and test it. Brent 1) if I'm wrong, someone will point out the flaw in my understanding 2) if my understanding is generally pointing towards the correct theory / belief, perhaps it'll be of use to someone. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 12:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/1/2013 9:11 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. That's what you say you believe. But is there any reason I should believe it? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 12/2/2013 2:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 06:11, Samiya Illias wrote: This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? Making It consistent is not really limiting it. Accepting the idea that God can be inconsistent quickly leads to inconsistent theology, which is the fuel of atheism. (that is why atheists defends all the time the most inconsistent notion of God, and deter people to search by themselves in the field). I have read that this is the root of Islam falling behind the west and missing the Enlightenment: Because Islamic theologians believed that the existence of physical laws, e.g. Newtonian mechanics, was a limitation on Allah. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
On 02 Dec 2013, at 18:46, Samiya Illias wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. I can make sense, but in the machine's theory, some truth there need to remain silent, as they will look like nonsense for some people. It is of the type only going without saying. No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Are you open to doubt your theory? Or some points in your theory? If not it means you stay connected to the incommunicable part, and you take the risk of saying to much, and fuel disbelief, even and especially when not wrong. And, btw, what is your position on computationalism, because this is an hypothesis shared by many here (if only for the sake of the argument). Would you accept that you or some friend get an artificial digital brain? Have you think about this question? Have you an idea of the consequence for consciousness and physical realities, and for the possible theologies? I don't defend the idea that comp is true, but comp makes possible to use computer science and mathematics to formulate the questions, and put some light around. Sent from my iPhone Well, for the Mandelbrot sets zooms, I hope you can access a bigger computer with a larger screen. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?
Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss. My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life, nothing before or after, but what if there is? And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother... Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages: On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God. At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over ... There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature. No, he didn't say Oops!, God exhorts us to reflect and ponder! Hi Samiya, If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother? Telmo. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote: I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in every possible meaning of the word. Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an hard subject) Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them and that everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us accept more easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be fatal for the incarnation of the good. The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's perfection? You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive attributes and as such is perfect, and one day we will understand the tragedies, but I am not sure such a God makes sense for the universal machines. If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth belonging to G*, and not G. That would mean that God was perfect ... until you said so. The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from some shared assumptions. If you say God is perfect to those who lost people they care about, it might be impolite, and you will again fuel atheism. Hell is paved with the best intentions. God might also not be perfect, and you might have the right to be angry against She/Him/It. I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, God created logic and the integers, and arithmetic. Then he said Oops!. Analysis, Topology, Algebra, Physics, History, Geography, archeology and Theology are tools for the integers to understand themselves. Truth already warns the numbers: the path is infinite and there are surprises. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message
